View Full Version : Hey LI-ers!! Got any thoughts on the recent change in the LIHSAA point system?

Feb. 20, 2001, 08:30 AM
At a LIHSAA meeting held just after Christmas, it was passed that LIHSAA points will, as of this year, be tabulated by only considering a competitor's top 20 horse shows. In the past it was based on total accumulation for the entire year. It was explained that most don't even do 20 shows and that some divisions are being won by riders who do 40 or more. This new idea was introduced to even the playing field. So do any of you have any thoughts on this subject?

Feb. 20, 2001, 08:30 AM
At a LIHSAA meeting held just after Christmas, it was passed that LIHSAA points will, as of this year, be tabulated by only considering a competitor's top 20 horse shows. In the past it was based on total accumulation for the entire year. It was explained that most don't even do 20 shows and that some divisions are being won by riders who do 40 or more. This new idea was introduced to even the playing field. So do any of you have any thoughts on this subject?

Feb. 20, 2001, 03:24 PM
I see there have been 33 hits on this thread- Let's get some feedback here!!

Feb. 20, 2001, 04:52 PM
Since an end of the year award is based on a cumulative score thoughout the year, how can we switch to a top 20???? How is this going to affect the Long Island shows, especially the winter ones if you can catch 20 shows easily in the nice warm weather of summer. No one will go to a winter show. I thought the LIHSAA was supposed to "promote" Long Island show??
It seems to me this rule helps only those riders who show off Long Island during the year but want to win the end of the year by joining the race halfway through. It doesn't seem fair.undefined

Feb. 20, 2001, 05:00 PM
i dont know what it means...sorry!


Feb. 20, 2001, 05:08 PM
This subject was brought up at a LIPHA meeting several months ago and at that time it was voted a BIG NO!!!! The local trainers and the few riders there were strongly against it. The LIHSAA awards is supposed to be for riders who compete throughout the year on Long Island. If you choose to go to Old Salem, New Jersey or Florida, more power to you, but that means you don't get Long Island points. I don't think it's fair for my customers to work hard all year showing at close to 60 horse shows to lose out on an end of the year award to someone who catchs 20 shows. Who is supporting LI??

Feb. 20, 2001, 05:33 PM
Will someone please explain,in simple language,what the benefit is of switching to a 'top twenty' point system is? So for I have not heard the "pros" fully explained! Thanks

Feb. 20, 2001, 05:48 PM
How does someone do 60 shows a year? I think someone who gets more points from 20 shows than someone gets with 40 is the more quality horse/rider combo.

Feb. 20, 2001, 07:28 PM
60 shows is easily attained when there are shows nearly every day during July and August on Long Island.

Feb. 20, 2001, 07:33 PM
The top 20 shows would be fair if you were Qualifing for something but we are talking about an END OF YEAR award which should reflect a whole year of showing no matter how few or many shows you choose to ride in.

Feb. 20, 2001, 08:32 PM
First of all only one person on LI did or ever does that many shows.This rule was changed without input from anyone but 4 people in the meeting!And it was changed for one person( so that type of person would not be able to win) ,also it was changed so that one person can win high score on LI while they also show at cap challenge harrisburg fla etc.A vast majority of trainers and exhibitors are against this rule change but it seems that the majority has no say in how things are done out here !Only the minority has any say.
For ya all in other parts of the world say Virginia how would you like it if... the pres and vice pres and say tom struzzieri decided that of all the shows you guys show at only the Culpeper shows would count.That means that Warrenton wouldnt count Upperville wouldnt count Deep Run Middleburg any shows in NC or Md wouldnt count. More importantly lets say that this decision was
made in a closed meeting without any input from any of you who pay all the bills
YOU see here on LI there are a lot of shows lots of them ,all points are or were calculated like zone awards points so if you are champion at like 15 shows where there are 9 or more in division you win ,period the end.All the winter shows will die many of the smaller ones in summer will also trainers who take 15 to a show wontbe able to because the clients wont want to go to anything but the biggest shows which might have rock hard footing or sloppy mud or be the hampton classic which is not really open to all entries any more .I may not be expressing myself clearly but MY BIG PROBLEM WITH THIS IS>>> this was done in an underhanded sneaky way.

Feb. 21, 2001, 06:15 AM
The advantages, as it was explained to me are:
1) It would prevent someone from getting way out in front. Once he/she acquires 20 shows, points would start to get deducted from his/her TOTAL as he/she continues to show.
2) It would allow the guy who only wants to do a smaller number of LI shows to have a better shot at a LI prize.
3) It would prevent "horse races" in the Fall.
4) It would even the playing field.

And, as it was presented to a room full of people at a LIPHA meeting, using several charts and graphs, only 7% of LI's horse show competitors were benefiting from the aggregate method. The room was still not convinced, however, that the 20 show rule would positively impact the horse show community as a whole. The rule was tabled at that point. It was brought up again at 2 LIHSAA meetings. It was voted in, as a trial for 2001, at the second meeting, with 5 members present, 4-1 vote.

Feb. 21, 2001, 06:27 AM
I am repeating to the best of my abilities what are supposed to be the pros
!) it is easier to book keep this way( HOnestly it was said to me that the person who runs the website for our local organization would not have to work so hard)
2)The really nice ones arent winning,we are getting beaten because they show at all the winter shows and do more shows than we do( because the trainer takes a lot of people to fla but not the childrens hunter kids who dont show or jump all winter .)My answer is then dont go to Fla Old Salem Hits etc etc or be willing to accept that you aren't going to be LI high score champion and Zone top 6 and win at Cap Challenge, Harrisburg etc etc
3) If one gets way out in front during the winter we can't catch them.(Well too bad)
40Th epoint calculator has shown us all the statistics that show us that it wont affect anyone 's placing so we want to od this .
These are the reasons for changing this rule I have tried to be fair and honest if anyone else has a comment please feel free to add ok???

Feb. 21, 2001, 10:07 AM
Please everyone give us your thoughts and feeling so we can bring them to a meeting

Sweet Pea
Feb. 21, 2001, 10:23 AM
"Once he/she acquires 20 shows, points would start to get deducted from his/her TOTAL as he/she continues to show."

Really? You get penalized for doing more than 20 shows?

I'm a little confused...

Feb. 21, 2001, 10:27 AM
The NJPHA (New Jersey Professional Horsemans Assoc.) took a different approach. They allow all shows to count for points but you are allowed only ten shows from one series of shows. Let's say barn X has 20 shows during the year - you are only allowed to count points from 10 of those shows. This was done because people were collecting year end awards without ever leaving the property where their horse was boarded. It was seen as a way to level the playing field. The NJPHA had sent questionairres out to all members when they were discussing what rule changes should be applied. All responses indicated that members wanted some change to try to level the playing field.

Another rule that they have is that when there are only 3 (minimum number for points to count) in the class, the number of points is reduced.

My opinion is that there will never be a way to curb the point chasers. I've heard of lawsuits being threatened over a beginner hunter division. Allegations of point fixing were thrown around. I'm in agreement that just because you won a year end award does not mean you were the best in the division, it just means you went to more horse shows.

Feb. 21, 2001, 10:38 AM
Sweet Pea-
Once a competitor does 20 shows, he/she starts to loose the points from his/her worst show. The total is from HIS/HER top 20 shows. Does that help you??

Feb. 21, 2001, 10:55 AM
I think that what Pony Pulr meant was that if you did say 25 shows and at 15 shows you won 74 points at those 15 your total would be 1110. At the next six you only got 35 points instead of adding the 1110 to 210 you could only add 175.So unless you could show and get more than 35 points at a show your total wouldnt change.

Sweet Pea
Feb. 21, 2001, 11:11 AM
Gotcha - thanks!

Gold Dust
Feb. 21, 2001, 12:13 PM
It took this topic to get me to fill out this form to be able to post this message. From start to finish this has been handled very poorly to say the least. I believe the committee really should step back and see the message they they have just sent out. Please remember this is called L.I. END OF YEAR AWARDS. The people that are here all year deserve to have all points counted. As it has already been stated if you choose to go off long Island great for you but should not be rewarded for this at the end of year awards. Being on a committee means you should represent all fairly and not just push things through for a select few. L.I. is made up of such a variety of people and so many do not have the resources for that expensive fancy horse and can only show close to their home. Should they not be allowed to have their moment also even if it be a 5th or 6th at the end of year banquet. Let zones take your top shows and leave L.I. point system the way it has been for years. I don't think it was broke so why are we trying to fix it!!!!!!!!!

Laura Reed
Feb. 21, 2001, 12:48 PM
I agree and also disagree with a number of points made above. Wish I had the time to go into detail at the moment, but I don't. For Long Islanders: Come to the LI PHA meeting March 5th (I think that's the date) and express yourselves. As a member of the LI High Score Awards Assn. committee I do have to say that this change was not "underhanded," in my opionion. Ponypulr explained the situation accurately. More later... when I have more time.

Sweet Pea
Feb. 21, 2001, 12:51 PM
Where are the LI PHA meetings held?

Gold Dust
Feb. 21, 2001, 01:56 PM
Country Kitchen restaurant in Smithtown. Usually the first monday in the month, 7:30. Anyone reading this from L.I. time to be heard.

Feb. 21, 2001, 02:15 PM
I'm sorry but I have to agree with the "underhanded" way this was handled. I was at the LIPHA meeting when this was brought up by a member of the LIHSAA. It got a very negative reponse then and at a later meeting. I also know that the subject was discussed at a LIHSAA meeting and voted down. The meeting that it passed only had 5 members present how is that a fair majority of the whole committee?? I have spoken to several members of the LIHSAA who didn't even know there had been a meeting and were upset not to have been notified.

Feb. 21, 2001, 02:28 PM
Did this rule change take place after the start of the new LIHSAA show year?

Feb. 21, 2001, 04:02 PM
After reading all of the above comments, I have to concur with Gold Dust (2/21 3:13 p.m.). It is said best right in that comment. Many of us show on LI all year and all our points should be counted, not lost. The rules should not be changed to accommodte the select few who show off-Island in the winter (Florida, etc.) and come here for the summer shows and say goodbye in the fall to show somewhere else! Most of us stick it out in cold weather and in hot weather, snow or rain, all year long. LIHSAA should be for Long Islanders. Horseshowing is hard work. A lot of time and effort and training (blood, sweat and tears) goes into it (just ask my trainer).

Also, how may committee members are there? Was the 4-1 vote a fair representation of the views held by all the committee members? (4-1 says "no.") I think the vote would have been closer if all the members were present to vote.

And, since this was voted in after the 2001 season began, is it fair to institute it now, or wait until next year (maybe) if this issue ever gets hammered out?

Feb. 21, 2001, 04:26 PM
I am so glad to see so much interest in this thread

Feb. 21, 2001, 04:43 PM
Yes, the vote was taken after Dec. 1st, 2000, which is the start of the new horse show year.

As far as I can tell, there are 13 members of LIHSAA.

Gold Dust
Feb. 21, 2001, 04:44 PM
Another very good point. Being the 2001 season had already started I do not understand how something could be taken to a vote and come into effect for this year. As we all know it was turned down the year prior so it seems to me the proper thing to do is bring it up for discussion again with much more then 5 committee members and openly avilable for all to give their views. I was also at the meeting where all the charts were shown. Still it did not get a good response so that should have been a clue majority was not in favor. Knowing this was an issue with a big impact the 'general public' should have been told. it was being put to a vote.

M. O'Connor
Feb. 21, 2001, 06:39 PM
...60 horse shows is quite alot...I know of several end of year hi-point award winners (not just on LI) who were never quite the same soundness-wise after being pounded while chasing after all those zillions of points. There will always be someone who is not happy with whatever system is in place...Those left in the dust by the point chasers will complain if all the shows count, those who would happily attend every last show on the schedule no matter what will complain if all of them aren't counted...But it is important that changes be made in an orderly manner and that concerned parties be given sufficient notice to make comments, and that changes be instituted at a time of year that makes sense...anyway, what are some compromise solutions that would allow a good horseman to save a good horse, allow for the selection of shows based on what they have to offer the exhibitor aside from points, yet reward those whose goals include achieving an end of year title? Any ideas???

Feb. 21, 2001, 08:09 PM
I do not believe that anyone did 60 shows this year!My horses usually do no more than 25 to 30 for he whole year.If an exhibitor did do 60 that is their choice isn't it?Most of us(LONG ISLANDERS)Give time off through out the season.I promise you that what most Eq horses do in order for their riders qualified is less than what the majority of Long Islanders do each year.Th ebig issue here isn't so much about how many shows anyone did but about how this was done.

Royal Blue
Feb. 21, 2001, 08:22 PM
name of Toucher, barn name Teddy. He is a 16.2 hand dark bay with a huge blaze. Very leggy, 2 front splints, would be 6 yrs old now. He was at our barn for a year after coming off the track and was one of our favorites, last we knew he was sent to Long Island. He was at the Gold Coast Eques. Center for a very short time around August than was moved to a barn in Westbury. If anyone knows how he is doing we just want to see if he is ok. Please email me at ILUVROYALBLUE@CS.COM

Feb. 21, 2001, 11:09 PM
I really don't have an opinion at this point, since I haven't spoken to all that many people about this in details to get the facts (I just learned more reading this thread). I'll ask around and post on this over the weekend.

I do have a question though -- what happened to the LIHSAA website? It "disappeared" late last year. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Feb. 22, 2001, 06:23 AM
Dear Jane,
Your question is on the lips of everyone who shows on LOng Island!!! We all want to know why there is no website anymore!!!After so many questions and no answers I can only surmise that there is some sort of problem that "we the interested parties" aren't privy to. Maybe at the March 5 th meeting that and other questions can be answered.

Gold Dust
Feb. 22, 2001, 07:55 AM
I believe we are way off the issue on that point. First of all 60 shows is not a number I think anyone has done. Second of all I take it as an insult as a trainer that points would mean more to me then the welfare of my horse. The horse I had most chase points were trying to qualify for zones and did show twice a week and never jumped at home. Jumping twice a week in your opinion is too much? This can not and should not be one of the reasons to install the 20 horse show rule for we all know it would not work in this matter. People will show with the attitude I have to be champion 20 times and we all know in reality how hard that is. PLEASE-20 horse show rule will not stop the point chasers.

Feb. 22, 2001, 10:23 AM
I was just told via phone by the PRES> of the LIHSAA that there will be an open meeting of the LIHSAA at 6:30 pm March5 at the country kitchen in Smithtown ny.That is one hour before the usual LIPHA meeting!Please ya'll come

Feb. 22, 2001, 12:36 PM
At present there are 14 people on the board - there is feeling that we should add a few trainers also. now it is mainly horse show people

Gold Dust
Feb. 22, 2001, 03:37 PM
Without a doubt this has been my feeling for quite some time now. L.I. needs to be represented by all not just horse show managers. All inputs would make the committee have a more objective opinion. The present committee is outdated and the concerns of all should be taken within any organization.

Feb. 22, 2001, 03:52 PM
Has anyone done the math on the 60 horse show deal? Check this out - 1 horse, 1 trainer, trailer and braiding - here goes:

60 horse shows div. by 12 = 5 shows per month.

Expenses for 1 show:

Entry fees (average) $125.
Trainer fees 50.
Trailering fees 50.
Braiding (optional) 25.

Total $250 x 5 show per month = $1,250/month

$1,250 per month x 12 months = $15,000.

That's staggering!!!

I have no desire to pound away and "chase points" as the saying goes. I think I'll just stick to a series (10 shows or less) and hope for the best!!

Laura Reed
Feb. 22, 2001, 05:05 PM
In response to above posts: Yes, trainers, owners, riders (pros, amateurs and juniors), show managers and any other individuals interested in the state of horse showing on Long Island SHOULD be involved. Well then, why not JOIN the Long Island PHA, why not ATTEND the monthly meetings?

[This message was edited by Laura Reed on Feb. 22, 2001 at 08:55 PM.]

Feb. 22, 2001, 06:28 PM
All the meetings are held an hour from my home and we arent talking about LIPHA but LIHSAA two separate entities.If these things can happen without real input from the people who are affected why should anyone support it, show at their shows, or pay to go to their awards banquet.

Feb. 22, 2001, 07:02 PM
As a member of the Long Island PHA, I do agree with Laura, that more people should attend the meetings and get involved. However, the LIHSAA is a seperate group, who chooses it's own members, makes up their own rules, and operates independantly of the LIPHA. The last rule change is proof of that, since the LIPHA discussed it, and voted not to support it.
In the past, it was common for a person's ideas or concerns to have been brought to the LIPHA meetings because many members are also on the LIHSAA. It is suggested though, to submit your thoughts in writing too the LIHSAA and they will be discussed at their seperate meeting.

Feb. 22, 2001, 07:13 PM
would love to email you but... you didn't write one on your profile ?? any suggestions???

Feb. 23, 2001, 04:24 AM
I have reviewed the responses to this subject with great concern.

As a professional on Long Island I disagree with the impression that quantity is being rewarded over quality. If you look at the AHSA 2000 HOTY winners, you needed both quality and quantity to win. Why should Long Island be any different?

The LIHSAA is an association supported by Long Island horse shows. The fees that are paid by the horse show owners, pays for the awards that are presented. The awards program is there to promote attendence at Long Island shows throughout the year. Based on this alone, why should the points be limited to a horse/rider's 20 top shows, when dues are collected from all shows??

I would again refer you to the AHSA, which long ago decided to reward horses on a National as well as a Zone level. Both programs are on a point accumulation basis, with different goals for supporting member shows. The LIHSAA is designed to reward riders that show and win on Long Island, just as the AHSA Zone award is designed to reward horses/riders that show within their zone.

Last year was an exiting year on Long Island with winners of several divisions not being decided until the very end of the year. The advent of the websight made the competition great. Everyone knew where they stood, and had a chance to try and better their placing if they wanted.

I feel that this rule change, like many things in the horse industry, is designed for the few rather then the masses that support this great sport. Leave the rules as they were.

Feb. 23, 2001, 05:15 AM
I have to agree with Mr. Savage's thoughts on this issue. I hope those involved with the LIHSAA get a chance to see this posting and respond.

Feb. 23, 2001, 05:56 AM
Bravo to mr.Savage's concise well thought out comments !!! I agree whole heartedly

Gold Dust
Feb. 23, 2001, 07:03 AM
Well spoken Bob! You made many points we all feel and I would say for sure those are the points of the majority! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Feb. 23, 2001, 09:24 AM
I agree with Bob and it's good to hear from a new voice

just call me me*
Feb. 23, 2001, 06:13 PM
hi my fellow long islanders!!!! that was well said bobby and i agree with you 100% ... i think that this rule change is uncalled for or at least the manner in which it was done... as someone who has competed for LIHSAA END OF THE YEAR awards i like to show in the winter spring summer and fall my trainer never over does it we always have breaks to make sure our horses are well rested and if we don't win we don't win but i managed to come out with a reserve in the childrens hunters this year with more then a month off plus more breaks in the summer and in the spring and winter and we did go off the island for a few shows.... so it can be done...... and yes there are people who have done 60 shows on long island just so they can say they won their division for LIHSAA...... if the ahsa can do it then why can't we... i mean this 20 show thing is just like what you do to qualify for zones although that is your top 15... but no one is qualifying for anything here we are just earning something we deserve at the END OF THE YEAR a total of all shows shows a WHOLE YEAR not just 20 shows although it can be done you can be champion with 20 shows if you are champion EVERY single time with double or triple points... but if it is for a whole year why then limit to only twenty shows?? why don't we call it best out of 20 shows award not END OF THE YEAR?? plus the fact that they are voting it in now?? that is a little odd did they wait till no one was around to make sure that the vote would be 4-1? and no one enforces a rule in the middle of the showing year like that /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif that just isn't fair !!!!! discuss make sure the majority of the population knows then vote and if it goes through with a FAIR vote then enforce it at the appropriote time NEXT year not after the 2001 show season has begun......


before me there were many after me there will me none

Feb. 23, 2001, 08:46 PM
Bobby you said it great!! I only hope that these sentiments are expressed as clearly at the open LIHSAA meeting. We haven't heard much from anyone who was in favor of the rule change. I would like to hear their thoughts.

M. O'Connor
Feb. 24, 2001, 04:10 AM
One or two posters seem to think I have registered an opinion based on my comment about 60 being alot of showing for a horse...actually, I was merely trying to examine and present both sides of the issue. I think all of us have seen situations where quantity has been used to make up for lack of quality, but no rule can protect an animal whose humans simply lack grace and common sense. Fortunately, most who show do have better ideals than that, and respect thier horses sufficiently to avoid overuse. That being said, I see no harm in examining the system from time to time in an open and above board manner to see if improvements can be made that might benefit both horses and exhibitors while encouraging managers to keep their own standards up. In this current state of affairs, the open and above board part seems to be lacking, judging from the response to this thread. The disappearance of the LIHSAA website (where this discussion should more properly be taking place) and the confusion about the distinction between the LIPHA (which one can join and provide input to) and the LIHSAA (which I have no idea how one joins or provides input to) only serves to make things more confusing, and points to the need to at least clarify our current way of doing things.

Feb. 24, 2001, 04:50 AM
Thank you M.O'Connor for clarifying you point!

Feb. 24, 2001, 05:55 AM
In answer to Mr O'Conners question on how to join the LIHSAA, simply put, you don't. The current members of the group "invite" new members in from time to time. As far as I know the majority of the current members are horse show managers. As with any group there are several members who have been inactive for quite some time, but most are still active horse people.

Feb. 24, 2001, 06:10 AM
I really would like to hear from a proponent of this idea ???We promise not to flame ya!!!

Gold Dust
Feb. 24, 2001, 02:20 PM
Being we now have an open LIHSAA meeting along with the regular PHA meeing [march 5 7:30]we could use some feedback on this. What is the committee feeling right now? Is anyone from the committee besides Laura willing to jump in and let us know? I was just wondering since this thread gets so many views and not as many posts maybe someone from the committee could let us know why they voted yes and let us know why you believe the 20 horse show thing will benifit L.I. riders? The modern day of computers here you can even come on this post and no one here has to know who you are. Lets get going here and here from all sides. The meeting is not that far away and if you can not attend please post a thread so your voice still can be heard since this will be printed out and taken to the meeting! We need more input then the few regulars so lets get going!!!!

Feb. 24, 2001, 02:27 PM
PLEASE - everyone come to the meeeting 7:30 Monday, March 5th at the Country Kitchen , Route
111, Smithtown

Michelle Mc
Feb. 24, 2001, 02:35 PM
..."How does someone do 60 shows a year? "....

There was a famous pony who was AHSA "horse of the year" a few years back. His AHSA printout had 54 shows on it. I saw it!!! It was disgusting. I don't think he was unbraided much.
The joke at the pony ring was: "they never turned off the truck." /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Feb. 24, 2001, 03:58 PM
Ginny, Laura and myself are the only members to surface here, so far. But this whole new concept was presented and encouraged by Mike McCarthy at, at least, one PHA meeting and the last two LIHSAA meetings. He had alot to say, using graphs and charts, to support his idea. I am with the understanding that he is not, however, a member of LIHSAA, but is just hired to be the Pointkeeper. He also is the creator and Keeper of the Website.
For those of you interested, the "absent" members are:
Mrs. Cushny, Chairman
Carolyn Vincent, President
Anne Aspinall
Gerry Chasin
Marie Gibbons, Recording Sec'y (???)
Tom Mannos
Joyce Prezebowski
Mrs. Savino
Alvin Topping, President LIPHA
Sandy Woison (Fallon)

Feb. 24, 2001, 05:51 PM
Alright already get off the 60 horse show issue. As stated earlier it works out to 5 shows a month, that is certainly feesible with careful planning.
The issue at hand is why should my 25 or 30 horse show points count for less than someones 20 shows. I was at the local tack shop discussing this and a father of a rider was dismayed. He comment was something like, "I stood out in the freezing cold every Sunday all winter holding my kids horse, paid all those entry fees, trainers fees and what not and if she does more than 20 show some of those points are worthless? Why?

Feb. 24, 2001, 05:59 PM
How many LIHSAA members regularly attend scheduled meetings? Is it usual for only 4 or 5 to make up a quorum?

Gold Dust
Feb. 24, 2001, 06:14 PM
Mrs. Rice- If I am correct the PHA meeting is at 7:30. The open LIHSAA meeing is at 6:30 correct? This is the meeting it is important to attend if you would like to express your opinion on the new point system. Am I correct?

Feb. 25, 2001, 12:25 PM
Wow!! 911 hits!! There must be an awful lot of Long Island Lurkers out there!! This must be a popular topic!! Let's get some views!!!

Feb. 25, 2001, 04:46 PM
I spoke with at least 35 people today at the show at sag pond.All of whom were very negative on this new rule change, where are its proponents?

Feb. 25, 2001, 05:29 PM
ok, I used to ride at a LI barn that did A LOT of LI shows. I still hear their trailer leaving 3x a week in July and August. This is cruel. The principle there is, if you win LIHSAA awards, you are a good rider. This is not true. You are not a good rider if you make your horse stand on a hot trailer for *gasp* 198 hours in 2 months.
Showing off LI has taught me two things a) hampton classic is not THAT BIG, b) quality over quantity.
I really like the idea of 20 best b/c TRUST ME, there are so many great LI riders that only have time or $ or horse legs to do 20 shows, and also, maybe, someday, it will be an incentive for a certain genre of show barns to stay home and practice so they have 20 good shows, instead of 40 mediocre ones, rather than trailer up and show.
GRRRR I NEEDED TO RANT /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Feb. 25, 2001, 08:09 PM
Thank you for making yoourself heard your ranting as you call it will not be flamed ! I do not agree with you but it is your right to have an opinion as it is mine!

M. O'Connor
Feb. 26, 2001, 05:29 AM
The part about the five shows per month averaging out to 60 shows isn't an accurate presentation of reality...I had occaision to tally up each and every LI show on the LIHSAA list as published w/ the LIPHA prize list a few years ago in connection with the discussion of the mileage rule and competition standards at one of the early NHJC conventions (the schedule has remained virtually the same since then)...that year, 57 of the 60-some odd LIHSAA shows occured between the months of April - October...with a huge majority of these being held in the months of July and August, when there is a show somewhere on LI nearly every day of the week...At that point in time, there were approximately 10 managers with multiple(more than 2)show dates, and fewer than 5 managers with single (one of these was the Hampton Classic) or 2 shows (these included Sagaponack)...These are just statistics, you can make what you want of them...( and keep in mind that I was only asked to make a talley, not register an opinion about what it meant) but clearly, this lopsided schedule allows for the possibility of excess wear and tear on the horses in situations where "point chasing" in pursuit of a year end award is a priority.

Gold Dust
Feb. 26, 2001, 06:46 AM
I viewed your post and respect your opinions because we are all entitled to one but since this 20 horse show thing has at times become a some what 'ethics' matter so to say I thought some of your views should be looked at from the other side of the coin.
For the most I believe it is a trainers job not to only prepare a rider for the ring it is their job to care for the animal also. In some cases it is also a parents job when dealing with a Jr. rider. If a horse must stand on the trailer for the day[and by the way most leave when they are finished and do not stand all day- by watching 2 horse trailers pull in and out]they are watched over quite carefully by trainers grooms and owners alike. They are kept warm in winter, given fresh water frequently in summer and have hay all day if need be.
Many horse/rider combinations do more then 20 shows for many more reasons then chasing points. Some horses and riders do well at home but have difficulty when at a horse show grounds because some riders need to learn to ride under competition atmosphere and many horses need to put mileage in as we say to be able to handle the different surroundings.
For the comment on The Hampton Classic. To some it is a big deal. Many clients do not even attend that show because they know they are no way ready and use it as a goal to strive to. Many local L.I. riders just sit by the side lines that week to watch and learn.
Enough said here. Like I said, just another way to look at this!

Feb. 26, 2001, 01:34 PM
Just because horse shows are offered three days a week in July and August doesn't mean you have to show at them!
I would bet that if you checked how many shows the top 20 did in zone 2 (thats NY,Pa, and Nj)youd find that they did at least 25 shows!

Laura Reed
Feb. 26, 2001, 04:41 PM
The monthly meeting of the Long Island PHA (LIPHA)will be held Monday, March 5 at 7:30, Country Kitchen Restuarant, Smithtown. The Long Island High Score Awards Assn. (LIHSAA) had hoped to convene an open meeting at 6:30, same date and location. Unfortunately, the 6:30 LIHSAA meeting cannot be held prior to the PHA meeting, due to restrictions (space is limited) at the Country Kitchen.

PLEASE! feel free to E-mail me with any comments you wish the LIHSAA committee to consider. I will also print a copy of this entire thread, (posts through Sunday evening March 4th.) The thread posts, plus any emails you wish to send me, will be presented at a meeting of the LIHSAA committee to be held at a later date, as soon as possible.

Also, it would be very helpful if those of you who are planning on attending the the LI PHA meeting (7:30 p.m. 3/5) could let me know that you will be there.

Thanks very much for your help with this!
Laura Reed (Email: Reeder54@aol.com)

M. O'Connor
Feb. 26, 2001, 04:47 PM
The point I was making about when the majority of shows are scheduled was simply to illustrate that the year-round "average" of 5 shows per month would appear to be a fallacy; I was not rendering any judgement about what people do, just illustrating how the schedule itself allows for the possibility that horses attending the maximum number of shows might have to exceed the average of 5 shows in a month during the months in which more shows are offered. Personally, I don't believe there is any magic number of shows that is "right" for every horse or rider---trainers and owners are responsible for making these decisions based on whatever goals that they are working towards.

The issue of how many shows should be or are attended aside, the problem is that a small and apparently closed group (the LIHSAA comittee) has, with short notice, made a decision that affects the interests of a larger number of exhibitors, trainers, and owners who feel that their input (via the LIPHA) was not sufficiently taken in to consideration, and that the action will adversly affect them, especially since it has been implemented after the 2001 season had already commenced. It seems that the LIPHA and LIHSAA is planning to address this at their March 5th meeting; hopefully all who are interested and able to attend will, and those who are interested but unable to attend (unhappily, I am among these) will express their views in writing to the LIHSAA and/or on this thread as per Laura's suggestion.

[This message was edited by M. O'Connor on Feb. 26, 2001 at 07:58 PM.]

Feb. 26, 2001, 05:35 PM
I don't think that anyone says in December, "Gee, I think I'll do 60 shows this year."
People usually start with a goal, realistic, or not. And if their goal requires them to eventually go to 60 shows, so be it.
It does not take 60 shows to WIN a LIHSAA division. It is probably a Zone Championship that would cause someone to rack up the shows, or even a National award.
I, therefore, do not believe that anyone guilty of doing 60 shows, this year or in the past, had merely a LIHSAA award as their goal.
So the 20 show rule has no effect on the number of shows one might be required to do to attain his/her goal.

Feb. 27, 2001, 05:32 AM
I am dismayed that the board has chosen yet againto ignore the active members of the LIHSAA and try to stop another planned and promised meeting.What are you guys so afraid of?The longer you put this issue off the worse it looks .Ignoring everyone who is against your feelings is absolutely the wrong thing to do.We are beginning to use terms like" us "and "them" which is very destructive.Wake up!Open your eyes!Horses and horse showing is what we do and what we want to continue to do!

[This message was edited by brilyntrip on Feb. 27, 2001 at 02:37 PM.]

just call me me*
Feb. 27, 2001, 10:36 AM
"ok, I used to ride at a LI barn that did A LOT of LI shows. I still hear their trailer leaving 3x a week in July and August. This is cruel. The principle there is, if you win LIHSAA awards, you are a good rider. This is not true. You are not a good rider if you make your horse stand on a hot trailer for *gasp* 198 hours in 2 months.
Showing off LI has taught me two things a) hampton classic is not THAT BIG, b) quality over quantity.
I really like the idea of 20 best b/c TRUST ME, there are so many great LI riders that only have time or $ or horse legs to do 20 shows, and also, maybe, someday, it will be an incentive for a certain genre of show barns to stay home and practice so they have 20 good shows, instead of 40 mediocre ones, rather than trailer up and show.

i understand that you are expressing your opinion just as i have and just as everyone else has... but what you are saying is that people will only do 20 shows instead of the maybe 35 they would usually do on long island... but how can you say that is true?? to get into zone finals they take your top 15 shows... do you know of anyone who has only done 15 shows and gotten in ?? i know someone who got in with 12 but he got in by chance the 2 in front of them one broke her leg the other one the horse went lame..... there was a comment made earlier that said if there is going to be your 20 best shows well then that means people are going to try to get 20 champion and reserves combined at shows with double and triple points(now by the rules of chance and luck this can be very hard to do in 20 shows in a row everyone has bad days and horses have bad days too)... now how does that satisfy the need to stay home the logic there for some (the real point chasers) would be SHOW even more until they had a perfect record of 20 champion and sometimes that means doing 40 shows... the other thing that you are saying is that people just don't care about their animals at all plus the fact you are saying that trainers don't care either b/c it is partly their responsibility to make sure that their nice horses aren't lame or sick or in poor health if they were do you think they would win?... well in all honesty that isn't true i went to about 25 shows in total last year maybe a few more.. i gained my main points in the winter and my horse had plenty of breaks he never stood on the trailer all day if we could we would load the horses who were done ealry on the 2 horse and take them home if we couldn't we made sure they would get off and be grazed and hand walked watered and hayed and if need be they would eat on the gooseneck.... and nothing will ever stop point chasers ever ... this rule is more for people who show off the island so they can go to devon, the burg, washington, CC, WPB, ocala, elenville,lake placid, state college, vermont,OS, and any other big show off long island... and if they want to do it and have the funds to do it more power to them.. then they shouldn't be going for long island they should look higher for a zone or national award... but long island is for people who show on long island and support our community and most everyone i know of makes sure their horses are taken care of... and yes of course there are bad apples but isn't there in every sport?? what i am tring to say is that this rule cahnge isn't for our small showing community it is for those that go away... but that is their choice to go away not ours...so don't make it easier for the people who don't support the small long island show community to win......(i don't ever remember anyone saying that winning a long island award makes them seem like they are a good rider? but it can make a little kid feel good or maybe it was a goal to get a young horse going well and make an accomplishment)

ohh and the Hampton Classic comment... to some it is a big deal... it is known as one of the more well known shows and to be a long islander on local day or to just say you got a ribbon there for some it is a big deal... for me to win ribbons in the local non pros and childrens HH it was a big deal for me seeing it was my horses first time at anything like that(meaning all the noise and hussle and bussle the tractors the draggers the people and especially the tents)... but i do agree that alot of the time you are not made to feel special more like a lowly class if you aren't sponsering anything or funding the show... but to be able to put those ribbons on my wall was something special /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif.. something i knew i earned against some top horses who had been showing alot longer then my horse had...


before me there were many after me there will me none

Feb. 27, 2001, 06:42 PM
Just wanted to get this back on the first page!! Glad to see there is some action on this thread- you have just 5 days until the meeting. Give us your thoughts on this here, even if you are planning to attend the meeting. You may not get a word in edgewise there!!!

Gold Dust
Feb. 28, 2001, 04:29 AM
Laura I read your post and for the most part was quite shocked that at this time the masses are told they are not having the meeting they have asked for. Needless to say your post may have fallen on deaf ears because what I have heard is most would care to be heard and may demand to do so that night if the meeting has to take place in the parking lot! My request as of now is for the committee to understand how important this is to all and how when a group of people feel so strongly on a subject ideas get through one way or another. Give in guys- I think they 'will' be heard!

Gold Dust
Feb. 28, 2001, 05:48 AM
After posting my last message and reading it back to myself and seeing the insanity of it all I ask myself 'why has it gotten to this point'? I want the members of the board to know this is not an attack mission on them. People just want to have their feelings known and when an issue comes to a vote we the community would like to have ample time to bring our views to the committee and I guess that would mean more open meetings! Any feedback on this?

Feb. 28, 2001, 06:28 PM
There will in fact be a meeting at the country kitchen in Smithtown ny this coming MONDAY at 7:30 pm and we are assured by the Vice President of the LIPHA that we may discuss at length the LIHSAA issue !Many thanx to Our vice pres.and we all hope he recovers very soon!!!

Richard! :D
Feb. 28, 2001, 07:03 PM

[This message was edited by DarkerHorse on Mar. 01, 2001 at 12:09 PM.]

Mar. 1, 2001, 10:19 AM
In an effort to secure all information relevant to this topic, I called the AHSA and got the following info.
Here is the number of shows the winner in zone 2 in the A/A youngers 42 (not from long island)
6th place did 23
9th Place did 22
15 th did 19 (from Long Island)
The average number of shows entered by the top 15 was29.13333 shows
In a/a older the average was32.13333
In children's ponies the winner did 53 shows(aLong Islander)
15th place did 31(LOngIsland)
the average number of shows for the top 15 was 37.06666
In childrens hunter horse the winner did 29 shows(not from Long island)
15th place did 26(not from Long Island)
the average number of shows 33
So it appears that throughout zone 2 being competitive means that you have to show a lot.It seems to me that the main reason for this is that in almost every other zone there are a much higher percentage of multi day shows and very few one day shows .In zone 3 in fact there are almost no one day shows at all. So that means that you must show at multi day shows must in fact pay for a $125 stall show over two days pay for a hotel, braiding , training,restaurants etc .For some who show in zone 2 paying all theses extra fees would mean only showing once every 6 weeks or so.It is just different here in zone 2.
Also I would like to add that travelling over several hours is stressful for a horse. In other areas of the US shipping in, is in fact a several hour ordeal.In most of Zone 2 horses ship in having travelled maybe 45 minutes show and leave go back to their stalls and probably get turned out.Most do not get lunged most do not get schooled by trainers over several jumps.Most Do not do the first schooling class of the day.Most importantly these horses who do show at two shows in a week do this over a 5 week period in July and Aug.I know that this may not be true of every single horse and rider combination in zone 2 but from my own experience and observations it is generally true for the adult and childrens divisions.

Gold Dust
Mar. 1, 2001, 11:17 AM
TENNIS ANYONE!!!!!!!!!!!!

Mar. 1, 2001, 02:09 PM
As brilyntrip stated, there is going to be a PHA meeting on MOnday. Everyone who is interested is hereby invited. PLEASE COME AND SPEAK UP. It is definite and offical.

Gold Dust
Mar. 1, 2001, 04:56 PM

Mar. 1, 2001, 07:29 PM
As an adult amateur rider who would be affected by this rule change, I'd like to voice my opinion. I do not agree to changing lihsaa year end awards to your top 20 shows. A year end award should consist of cumulative points for the entire year. AHSA zone and national awards are both done in this manner. For those who stated that the quality horses are not the ones receiving these awards but that they are being won by quantity, I say take a look at our zone 2 awards this year. We have many horses that won awards at national finals this year that reside in zone 2 yet did not win zone 2 awards. This has always been the same for LIHSAA. Yes, there are probably plenty of horses on Long Island that are competitive at the national level but did not win LIHSAA awards. That is because they didn't show on Long Island! That is their choice, but they should not be rewarded with an LIHSAA award because of it. As an amateur rider who is currenlt pursuing a zone award, my trainer often takes me to shows off Long Island in order to accumulate more points due to larger class sizes. My priority is to receive a zone award. If I happen to win a high score award along the way, then that's great for me, but I don't expect it to be handed to me when I choose to leave Long Island to horse show.

Mar. 1, 2001, 09:52 PM
Hi it so good to hear from someone new !!! You go girl!!!!or guy !!!I hope you will be at the meeting on Mon!

M. O'Connor
Mar. 2, 2001, 03:46 AM
Yikes, be careful you don't get as boring as I am!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Mar. 2, 2001, 06:20 AM
I am so glad to see there is still talking going on. I am at a lost as to why there has been no communication with members of the LIHSAA, with the exception of Laura Reed, and Ponypuller, and Virginia Rice(who was not at the actual meeting). There still is no LIHSAA website on which to get updated information. I hope we will hear from someone at the LIPHA meeting.

Mar. 2, 2001, 07:01 AM
haha Mary we are not boring ok? we are just thorough!!

just call me me*
Mar. 2, 2001, 03:10 PM
yeah right thorough boring same thing right??? j/k /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


before me there were many after me there will me none

Mar. 2, 2001, 04:31 PM
It seems that thorough and boring might in fact be the same but all I wanted to do was get the facts.

Mar. 3, 2001, 02:10 AM
My initial impression was that the 20 horse show rule would be good for the horses because one would not have to show at so many shows to earn a year end award.

However, someone could just keep showing until they won (or tried to win) all firsts and champions from every horse show. Then, you would have to keep showing to prevent anyone else in your division from obtaining all firsts and champions - or there may be a lot of ties at the end of the year.

For example:
Daisycutter-Backcracker winds up year end LIHSAA hunter champion,who amassed all of his points in the first 20 horse shows, tied with Ol'Dobbin Eggbeater, who amassed the same number of points in the last 20 horse shows after Daisycutter-Backcracker was resting in the field following winning everything in his first 20 horse shows.

This is also assuming that the point playing field is evened, and both horses can have their owners afford to show them at big shows (where there are more points per win to be had). Or the LIHSAA makes all points, not matter the rating, no matter the class number, equal.

So I am trying to figure out the purpose of the 20 horse show rule, because it appears that it does not save the horses from over-showing.

Mar. 3, 2001, 06:10 AM
I want to make sure I understand the issues to the 20 show rule. 1. It was going to save horses from showing too much. (Isn't the LIHSAA supposed to encourage showing? Do we want them to be in a position to judge who is showing too much, and what about schooling or lounging too long. It really won't stop point chasers from continuing to show in search of the "perfect" point show, or keep showing to pervent others from getting better shows.) 2. It was going to make it easier for the point keeper. (He will still have to keep track of every horse's points at every show in order to determine what your best 20 shows are.) 3. It will even out the competion by preventing a rider from getting too far ahead. (Yes this point does give and advantage to the riders who want a long island high score award but don't want to show on long island. But is this fair to those who do show on long island all year. Why shouldn't all the points earned count? Again I ask isn't the LIHSAA supposed to encourage showing on Long Island.) Finally, the way this rule was voted on and enacted after the show year has already started is questionable to say the least. I also feel the lack of imput from the members of the LIHSAA on this discussion board does not cast a good light. I hope we will be able to discuss all questions and ideas at the next PHA meeting on March 5. (I understand however the BLIZZARD that is predicted may postpone the meeting)

Gold Dust
Mar. 3, 2001, 10:07 AM
Yes wendy- I have just watched the weather and a snow storm is up and coming [possibly to miss us and we all should keep our fingers crossed] so with that on its way I hope the board members are already planning an alternate date within the week or beginning of the next week in case one is needed. This meeting is imperative and can not wait until next month. Please let us know your view on this. Hopefully it will be just rain! Pray for all of us without an indoor. Enough is enough already!

M. O'Connor
Mar. 4, 2001, 04:36 AM
If it's postponed long enough, I might be back from Ocala and be able to attend...

Mar. 4, 2001, 04:59 AM
I think that some persons will being doing indian snow dance in hopes that it is a real blizzard Mon night!!!Hope to see you there !!!

Mar. 4, 2001, 05:47 AM
I have heard nothing about a change for the meeting due to weather, or anything else, for that matter. I will let you all know as soon as someone tells me. Maybe this will be the opportunity to find a location that is more suited for the crowd that is expected. Does anyone have any ideas on a place that could accomodate the meeting, should this one on Monday night fall to the wrath of Mother Nature?

Mar. 4, 2001, 07:19 AM
I just wanted to pipe in that I wish you all the best of luck in what seems to be a BIG battle looming ahead!!

Mar. 4, 2001, 11:20 AM
do you think alvin and carolyn are doing a snow dance today?
i am not in favor of the rule.
more so in how it was arrived at.
if the majority of the people want this, than so be it.
lets first find out how everyone feels not just a select 5 people.
woul also like info on the inner workings of the board.
how many people on the board?
how long?
how do you get on the board?
how many people need be present to vote on things?
good luck.

Mar. 4, 2001, 02:57 PM
i don't know about the snowdance thiing but...
This all I know
There are presently 12 to 14 members on the board mostly show managers.I know of very active persons who have asked to be on the board .They have told me that they were never even given a response .The board doesnt not use an open vote of the masses .They vote in a closed session .Members that are not show managers are an announcer a points tabulator/secretary of shows and an amateur rider.Thats all I have been told.Please anyon ewho can correct me please do so.

M. O'Connor
Mar. 4, 2001, 03:30 PM
A blizzard and postponement is my ONLY chance of being in on this in person...and while I can see pros and cons to either method of high-scoring, as I see it, the really important issue is that the system we have all been so blissfully and ignorantly operating under for all these many years seems riddled with flaws and may be in need of an overhaul to ensure both fair representation and broad participation. The furor over this issue certainly seems to indicate this to me.

Mar. 4, 2001, 03:47 PM
LIHSAA is a 13 member committee(I am aware that Jim Rice is also on it, but is not listed, in the list of award winners for 2000). It usually meets once a year, in the Fall. It looks over the divisions that are offered and revamps their specs. To get on it, you are asked. I will say that if someone is interested in getting on LIHSAA, my suggestion would be to become involved with the LIPHA- attend the meetings regularly, get involved with their show and dinner. Offer productive input. Make your presence known. I, for one, would not be interested in someone who is not up on, or interested in, all the current happenings of our show community.
Just recently, I was told of someone who would like to join our ranks. It was the first I had heard of this. This person does not attend any meetings whatsoever, and has never attempted to make their presence known. Attending shows is not enough, in my book. And pissing and moaning at the ingate with other ingaters, doesn't cut it either.

Do I need to list the committee again? Years ago, when it was first created, it was made up of show managers. They felt it would be a way to improve attendance at the, perhaps, 20 some-odd shows on LI each year. The year also ran from Memorial Day to Halloween. But now things are different- the year is 12 months long, there are 60-odd shows in that year, and the committee now has people other than show management on it.
Please understand, the LIHSAA and the LIPHA are two separate organizations. However, there are several people involved in both. That is how it should be. So to bring anything to a PHA meeting about a LIHSAA topic, is NOT causing it to fall on deaf ears.

Mar. 4, 2001, 04:14 PM
If mother nature prevails and the LIPHA meeting must be postponed, I would suggest having it at the Holiday Inn by the Mac Arthur airport. The PHA has had several forums there so I know it can hold a crowd. While the PHA would have to pay for the room I think this particular meeting would warrent the expense. I don't know who I should call to make my suggestion so I hope the right person is lurking about.

Laura Reed
Mar. 4, 2001, 04:37 PM
Wendy... and other Long Island exhibitors: I'm not lurking; just not posting every day, since I have nothing earth shattering to share. EXCEPT: please feel free to email me at Reeder54@aol.com with any comments, or even call me at 516-671-5398 for word on whether the weather will have an impact on Monday night's meeting. IF the blizzard poses a threat to driving on LIE, I imagine the 7:30 PHA MEETING might be canceled. PLEASE STAY TUNED...

Gold Dust
Mar. 4, 2001, 04:39 PM
I was asked by someone this morning to ask Marty if the lounge at East Coast Stables [Mid-Island Arena] and he said "Give him a date". What do we think?

Gold Dust
Mar. 4, 2001, 04:48 PM
after [M.I.A.] I meant to type - would be available- then continue on-

Mar. 4, 2001, 05:39 PM
I love you gal you are so funny blunt and to the point but I just love it!

Mar. 4, 2001, 07:09 PM
Sorry Laura, I didn't mean anything by the lurker comment, just hoped the right person would be reading the forum to forward my suggestion.

Mar. 5, 2001, 08:23 AM
If the meeting does not fly tonight, that wil give us all a chance to find a more suitable location. The Mid-Island lounge is a very good one. It's free (although, I am only assuming), and rather centrally located. I will even bring some chairs!!! It is almost 12 noon and I have heard nothing about cancelling tonight. Perhaps things will be decided once the phones go out.

Gold Dust
Mar. 5, 2001, 09:05 AM
I have just finished a phone call with Mrs. Rice. A new meeting has been set for next monday 3-12 at 7:30 to be held at East Coast stables lounge[Mid Island arena] It is a PHA meeting but the discussion at hand will be discussed. Please get the word out. Hope to see a packed lounge that night!

Gold Dust
Mar. 5, 2001, 10:58 AM
If you could janet that would be great. That is one thing we could use since we are expecting quite a few people. Marty and I will also be making coffee and bringing some little snacky things!

Mar. 5, 2001, 05:43 PM
Yes God its snowing sleeeting here in merry ol LI and the meeting has in fact been cancelled til next week!!!!I feel like this is a test ( ya know how long can you stand it?)

Mar. 6, 2001, 05:03 AM
When the weather man was telling us we would only get 2 to 3 inches?Guess that was a joke too!I woke up and Riverhead had over 10 inches , southampton has 8 inches.It is still snowing!

Mar. 6, 2001, 05:39 AM
As soon as the Snail Mail is back in service I will mail you the revamped letter! Sorry about not being able to e-mail you.

Well, now you guys have another whole week to chat about this and get your ideas and opinions out. And if you place them here, EVERYONE will be able to read them and comment on them- Not just a chosen few.

Gold Dust
Mar. 6, 2001, 09:47 AM
Hit the nail on the head Janet. Everyone has another week to prepare for the meeting. Now that it will be held at East Coast lounge a packed house will not be a problem. I would hope to see most of the LIHSAA committee members there so we could put an end to the discussion one way or another and be able to move on with any other buisness at hand. Another note: we have almost 2000 views and only 100 posts. Hey guys, lets get posting here!

Mar. 6, 2001, 11:31 AM
Janet and Debi i agree

Mar. 6, 2001, 01:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Another note: we have almost 2000 views and only 100 posts. Hey guys, lets get posting here! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Keep in mind this thread is probably also being viewed by many non-LIers, as well as some LI amis who would rather hear what you pros have to say. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Mar. 6, 2001, 04:17 PM
BUt unfortunately the LIHSAA website has been down for ever and we don't really know why so we are forceed to use COTHBB as a forum.

Mar. 6, 2001, 05:38 PM
Hello Ladies and gentlmen, I figured that since everyone has spoken there views on the 20 show rule trying to get passed and not only being a rediculous one I might add, I think by everyone just showing up for the meeting on Monday is going to show the board members that they made a decision that wasnt thought through enough to suit everyone needs.
Now I have to get back to the LI website, it has been down a very long time, so I think instead of wasting time on getting a new rule changed that has been around for many years lets try and fix some problems that need fixing. Like the website. Go figure "the LIPHA pays for that". I dont understand wasting money isnt a problem!!!!!! Either fix things that need fixing or leave some things alone that were never a problem in the first place.

Gold Dust
Mar. 7, 2001, 06:35 AM
A new face!!!! To give my opinion and may I restate opinion, in response to the web-site: I do not believe there is a problem in the functioning of the web site. I would think the person who tabulates the points has to re-style the way the points are posted. If L.I. will only take your top 20 shows then the web site would not be able to work as it did last year. As Bobby Savage stated in an earlier post, the web site was very popular last year in riders keeping track of where they stood. Some riders tried to catch another and others realised at some point no matter weather they showed or not the standing for that animal would not change so they rested the horse at the end of the season. I may be wrong here so, Michael, if you have seen this thread please let me know if I am wrong here! It seems to me a rider may think he is per say 5th at that time but in reality is out of an end of year award after the top 20 are taken.

Mar. 7, 2001, 07:20 AM
I agree with you on that there isnt a problem with the website mechanically,but itdoesnt make the situation look better by not putting the website back on for the other reasons why people would log on. I t was told to me that is was because the site needed to get paid! SO PAY IT, If that is the real reason. This has been down for a long time so can we least rectify the website problem before Mondays meeting it would be one less thing to have to talk about!

Mar. 7, 2001, 10:03 AM
I spoke with Laura last night about the website at length .I do not want to give any wrong impressions about why the website is down but She has asked the "powers that be to take care of it immediately".It would be inappropriate of me to go into it any further at this time and in this forum.Email me and let me explain further Kbrilyntrip @aol

Mar. 7, 2001, 12:07 PM
If anyone knows anybody interested in this topic who is not on the net, please tell them about the meeting. Monday night, 7:30, the lounge at East Coast Stables, formerly Mid-Island Arena. Everyone is welome, please come

Mar. 7, 2001, 12:31 PM
If you know anyone who is not on the net, please tell them about the meeting Monday night, 7:30 at East Coast Stables, formerly Mid-Island Arena.
Everyone is welcome, please come.

Mar. 7, 2001, 12:32 PM
Thanks for your input on the website, I didnt want you to think I would even put you on the spot and ask you why the website isnt even on. All I can say is that the LIPHA should be paying for this site, after all we all do support all Long Island horse shows and horse show managers pay there dues to the LIHSAA to have a LI sanctioned horse shows. So lets just calculate on a low side of 60shows per year, times that by $100.00 per show the LIHSAA collects in dues. So that alone comes to $6,000.00 dollars per year. So figure how many years LIHSAA been in operation. ? We can all read between the lines that it is not a money issue. I guess we will see the website up on Tuesday after the meeting. Thats is how I am taking it. It all boils down to the out come of the meeting. And that is just not fair!

Mar. 7, 2001, 03:58 PM
I can only make reference to what I've been told kiwi.It seems odd to me also!!!!!!OK now I am poed! I am getting th g** da**ed " this page cannot be BLAH BLAH !!!" I have been going thru this all DAY AAAARRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGH!I feel like Charlie Brown dealing with Lucy and the Football !!!!

Mar. 7, 2001, 04:57 PM
Since the LIPHA is a seperate orginization apart from the LIHSAA. The LIHSAA should pay for its own website, I don't think the LIPHA needs to take responsibility for someone elses web site.

Mar. 7, 2001, 07:05 PM
I do not know who actually pays for the website, LIHSAA or PHA. I do know that Mike McCarthy is responsible for the site. He explained in a PHA meeting that the website would indeed reflect everyone's exact points, should the new rule go into effect- total accumulated to the top 20, and a top 20 tabulation, once the 20 shows are done. Names in red haven't done the required 6 shows, black have, and another color would be those who have done 20 or more. That number would reflect the points from their top 20 shows.
So consequently Mike cannot put the site back up because the point tabulating system is undecided.
The website never gave us the opportunity to discuss amoungst ourselves any horse show topic before. So Karin, we would have always had to use another venue, such as this BB. I did suggest to Mike that a BB would be a great addition to the site. And, in talking to Laura, she said that it was an easy program to do, get, install, and she would help Mike set it up. So perhaps we will see something when the site gets back up.

Mar. 8, 2001, 04:13 AM
I agree a BB would be great, but if they handle it the way they handle the LI website we are better off talking on the phone amongest each other. At least you know you pay your phone bill and you can get an answer right away! And also who ever is in charge in the paying the bill for the LI website whether LIPHA or LIHSSA there still is no excuse why it still isnt up or paid. Like I said it is a poor excuse no matter who ever is in charge of it. You dont shut the whole website down because waiting for a decision on one thing. There are other reasons for it too!

Gold Dust
Mar. 8, 2001, 06:15 AM
Thanks for explaining the point system Janet. Now at least I somewhat understand the new tabulation system. So, on that note that is the obvious reason why the site has been down because he must install a whole new program if they plan to do this system. As anyone can see people are quite upset on it being down for so long so at least I hope someone realizes to put the site back up even if the points are not up yet. Many people including myself used it for other reasons like up and coming horseshows. For me it became that green piece of paper.[the middle of the PHA horse show prize list] Running a thread in the LIHSAA is a great idea. At least we have ways of communicating other then here and I bet more would know it exsists if it were on our local site! Well it looks to me the meeting on Monday can not come to soon. It looks like some of the natives are getting restless!

Mar. 8, 2001, 06:41 AM
Let's take it easy on the LIHSAA website thing. It was a MISTAKE. And now there is not much sense in bringing it back up until the point situation is resolved.

just call me me*
Mar. 8, 2001, 08:24 AM
is that a disease? because there sure are alot of those going around......... /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif


before me there were many after me there will me none

Mar. 8, 2001, 09:25 AM
Thanks for understanding my point on the site Danielle. And I am sorry if you feel that I am being harsh about it ponypulr but it is the truth of the matter I speak. And I have my own opinion on things just like you did when you started this BB on getting everyones views on the new rule change which I am against just like everyone else, but dont knock me for speaking my peace on another issues.

Mar. 8, 2001, 11:01 AM
I have to say that I am looking forward with anticipation to this monday's meeting .Please let's not get in a p*^^#Ng match now Ok?

Mar. 8, 2001, 07:46 PM
And, please, let's keep this BB going with the purpose for which it was intended.

How about talking about alternative ideas for tabulating points? Could this new rule work better if it went on straight C-rated points with no increment system? How about keeping the old system but not considering champion or reserve points? That would tighten up the scores, no? Or....we could keep the old system.....

Mar. 9, 2001, 04:01 AM
Good Luck at the meeting everyone. I hope there is alot more people going to this meeting then just the ones on this BB.

Mar. 9, 2001, 06:09 AM
I was hoping for more input. Hopefully there are a lot of Internet Illiterates out there that will offer their opinions on Monday night!!

Gold Dust
Mar. 9, 2001, 08:15 AM
To change the subject, I recieved your e-mail Mrs. Rice and thank you so much but we already picked up coffee and I have tons of girl scout cookies that I could not say no to the little cherubs so I think we shall be fine!

Mar. 9, 2001, 10:16 AM
Are there any thin mint cookies? Those are my personal favs!If ponyplr we gave only straight c points that would level things a lot but I think that the whole point was to reward the ones that win at the more heavily entered shows.So that takes away the advantage that this system would give.The bonus points for champion and reserve is a good point also.I think again that it would take the advantage away again .I still think that 1-the entire vote must be thrown out because there was no quorum at that meeting 2-All the voices of all the interested parties must be heard before a vote is taken again.

Mar. 9, 2001, 10:50 AM
Regardless of any final decision on how the Year End Award will be done - the points still must be counted. Why not get a head start on that part of it?
Also, the web site was begun to inform Long Islanders of what was going on in the horse world.
This was important and should have been posted.

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 9, 2001, 01:37 PM
You now have my undivided attention for the next three days leading up to the PHA meeting. I�ll try to educate the uneducated, cool the hysteria, and maybe even uncover a hidden agenda or two along the way. I�m alone responsible for formulating the rule change and presenting it to the committee to vote on. For two years I've kept the statistics, watched trends, followed the abuses and finally presented a solution I believe would make LIHSA more competitive, increase entries at both winter and summer shows, and tip the method of points tabulation in favor of the competitors who are content to enjoy their competitive equestrian experience within the local world of LIHSAA and it�s year end awards dinner. For the next few days I�ll address your comments, squash the Florida, Hits, Old Salem theory, explain how the new system may increase entries and offer my own view on why certain segments of the Long Island equestrian community might want to convince everyone this is a bad idea. I�ll be attaching a Excel file to this post which contains all my findings on the showing habits of Long Island equestrians over the last two years. Please attempt to download it and print hard copies. It will be referred to often at the meeting and I�ll explain it in detail in one of my posts. As we hash this out over the next couple of days and at the PHA meeting there are two facts on the showing preferences of Long Island competitors I would like you all to be aware of. In 1999 out of 1023 animals showing in LIHSAA divisions only 17 competitors point totals would have been affected by the new point system. Twelve of the seventeen were champion or reserve in their respective divisions. In 2000 out of 1144 animals only 13 would be affected. Eight of the thirteen were champion or reserve. I know this to be true because I have the statistics, as a matter of fact I�m the only one who has any statistics. The out of town entries at the Hampton Classic and the North Fork Classic are not included in my findings. If I included them the numbers would be even more lopsided than they already are. So in 1999 91% of the competitors did no more than twenty shows and in 2000 93% attended no more than twenty. This was without any rules or regulation changes. This is just how many shows the majority of Long Islanders chose to attend in the past two years. Isn�t this the group we should be catering to, not competitors whose aspirations lie beyond Long Islands shores or those who attain their award by the quantity of their shows and not the quality of their ride. What ever happened to making changes for the benefit of the masses. I�ll close this opening letter with a response to Karin�s not very well thought out comment on my personal reasons for the rule change.

For Karin

it is easier to book keep this way( HOnestly it was said to me that the person who runs the website for our local organization would not have to work so hard)

In the future I suggest you take a long hard look at the comment like the one above before you accept it as fact and pass it on to the rest of the world. I�m positive your source has no idea of how difficult it is to instruct the computer to execute the commands needed for the new system as opposed to the original method of tabulating points. I don�t even think they have a grasp of basic math to make that remark. Before I write any computer commands I need to figure out how to perform the task just as if I only had a pencil and paper. In other words �good old arithmetic�. Using the original system one would arrange all the points earned at the competitions in a column and add them up. I think it is simple and straightforward. Using the new system you take all the points earned and add them up for a total. That is until you reach twenty one shows. At that point you have to arrange all the shows from highest to lowest and total up the top twenty shows. This changes every time you add a new show to list. If you were using a pencil and paper would it be more work or less work? Next try issuing commands so a computer can perform the same calculation. I know you�ve tracked the top fifteen for zone finals. I helped you verify the accuracy of the points reported to you by the AHSA. I ask you is it easier to calculate your top fifteen or just add up all the points accumulated during the qualification period?

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 9, 2001, 02:02 PM
I'll post the charts on the LIHSAA web site. It will be easier to upload for me and print for you.

Mar. 9, 2001, 05:58 PM
It is really nice to finally hear from you!I hope that you haven't been too cold this winter?we are very interested in your statistics .But in all honesty if your system changes any one person's standings I think it is unfair.You have already admitted that it would've change some standings right.How can you erase one person's efforts?Since you have chosen to take this to a kind of personal level, why have you chosen to take this little mission on ? why ? I have to tell you that I am not the only person you need to convince here .Just because I and a few others use a computer on a regular basis does not mean we are the only ones who are very upset about this issue and the way it was done.When I have described a conversation I am quoting it as close to verbatim as I possibly can.Frankly I and others are most irate about the fact that on several occasions this issue was firmly turned down as an alternative .Yet the issue keeps popping up until what seems like everyone was asleep.It doesn't sit well with anyone at all not just me or the others who have posted here.
It is unfortunate that this issue has been brought to such a public forum but there was no one responding to any of us .This seemed to many of us to be the only way to get a response.

Mar. 9, 2001, 05:59 PM
The Committee listed on the LHSAA we site is incorrect. Skip Lauinger is no longer on LI and James Rice is on the committee /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Mar. 9, 2001, 06:04 PM
GERRY CHASIN IS ALSO ON COMMITTEE /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Mar. 9, 2001, 06:56 PM
I can't get the darned things to work!!!

Mar. 9, 2001, 07:50 PM
First and foremost, I want to thank you for coming on to this thread and offering some very good arguments for the 20 show rule.
Although you have done a wonderful job for the past 2 years, I am not convinced that just 2 years of close scrutiny is enough to warrant a change.
The figures in your post tell me that a minute portion of the horse showing public would be affected by the rule change. I understand that that portion represents the horses that were shown more than 20 times. So their points would have been affected by being DECREASED. Decreased enough to affect their standings?? So those who choose to show more than 20 times for whatever reason, will be PENALIZED.
And the figures tell me that most of the "more than 20 show" exhibitors were champion or reserve. Would that have changed too?? Did you ask those people how they felt about this rule change? So those most affected by the rule change would be winners.
Your figures don't tell me, however, what percentage of the competitors didn't do the necessary 6 shows. If we shouldn't cater to the minute portion who does over 20( and wins), why should we cater to the portion who doesn't do many shows at all??
It appears your figures are centered around tipping the tabulating in favor of the loosers and those who don't show much.
From the horse shows' standpoint, with the increment system in place, the A and B shows stand to benefit from the rule change. They will offer more points to the big hunter divisions. Under the new rule, what more would the winter shows have to offer the exhibitor than they do now?? Their attendance now is minimal.
Most of the finals I am familiar with are set up with this type of qualifying- the top 15 or 20 system. It's a culling devise. They want the best in each division to be represented. But LI High Score is not a qualifying event. It is a HIGH SCORE award. That means the guy with the most points wins.

Mar. 9, 2001, 08:02 PM
Michael thank you for presenting you thoughts behind the new point tabulation rule. While I appreciate you effores in "keeping statistics and watching trends" I still don't see the need for a "solution" to a point system that wasn't broken to begin with. As a trainer, exhibitor, and an active member of the LIPHA, I am at a loss. What was the problem with the old system?

I would also like to ask for some more statistics. How many horses of the 1023 in 1999 and the 1144 in 2000 did the required 6 shows? Of the 91% in 1999 and 93% in 2000 who showed less than 20 show what percentage did the required six shows? According to the top 20 method how would the point totals have changed for the 17 competitors in 1999 and the 13 in 2000? Would they have gone down? Would the Champion and Reserve have changed? Your stats suggest that 93% attend no more than twenty shows, they don't account for all the shows off Long Island these horses go to. (There is no way for you to know those stats but your statement leads us to believe that they only show on LI.)

The LIPHA and the LIHSAA SHOULD cater to those competitors who SHOW on Long Island no matter how many shows they do. According to the top 20 rule, once you show more than 20 times you are penalized by having the points dropped from your "Lessor shows". IN your own words the "solution" would "tip the method of points tabulation IN FAVOR" of competitors who show less. "Tiping in Favor does not create a level playing field but an uneven one, where someone is given an advantage.

Your other comment about "following the abuses" I must ask what abuses are you refering to? Neither the LIPHA or the LIHSAA is in the position to regulate or police the amount of showing a horse or person can do. The LIHSAA can't even enforce their own rules among it's member shows. I would rather the LIHSAA withhold high score status from shows who didn't meet thier standards. We would then have less shows but better ones who strive to improve. (An unobtainable goal since everyone is afraid of law suits.)

Finally, let me say that we always need new ideas for improving shows and showing. We also need open discussions and fair voting methods, something which was lacking with this last rule change.

just call me me*
Mar. 9, 2001, 10:06 PM
bravo wendy well said !!!!! i agree 100%......:D

i would also like to thank Michael for coming on here and posting his facts and trying to convince the small number of us LI-er's who are on the COTH boards


before me there were many after me there will me none

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 10, 2001, 12:03 AM
I keep hearing the new rule will benefit the those who travel and then want to come back to Long Island to win a year end award. If some common sense was applied it just doesn't work. Follow along Wendy2 this will answer some of your questions on showing stats off Long Island. The eighteen LIHSA divisions can be grouped into three distinct catergories. The unrated divisions, nationally rated divisions, and the "C" rated zone divisions.The unrated divisions consist of Short Stirrup, Pre-Childrens, Pre-Adult, LIHSAA Low Hunter Professional (formally pre-green), LIHSAA Low Hunter Amateur (formally pre-green), LIHSAA Special Hunter, and LIHSAA jumper. These account for seven of the eighteen divisions. Who in their right mind would leave Long Island to do a division that doesn't even exist on the other side of the Hudson River. Or maybe someone might take a four thousand dollar short stirrup pony to a twenty five thousand Palm Beach circuit. Wendy2 even without statistics common sense leads me to believe no one in these seven divisions shows off Long Island. Next we have the nationally rated divisions. Included in this group is Small/Medium Pony Hunter, Large Pony Hunter, Green Working Hunter, Amateur Owner Hunter, and Junior Hunter. These divisions have so little support on Long Island it doesn't matter if they spend the winter in Florida none of them spend the summer here either. Twelve divisions down six to go. The "C" rated hunter divisions were most likely created when the masses cried out in one loud voice "we don't want to travel give us a year end award we can qualify for from our backyard". and so it was the "C" rated hunter divisions were created. Besides the weather is there any reason to lug a childrens or adult hunter down to Florida. I know for a fact Florida is not a contiguous state.On the other side of the Hudson River in the United States of America the horse shows have a habit of not spliting the small/medium and large childrens ponies. If a show manager tried that here on Long Island he or she would most likely be dragged from the booth and stoned. So besides the ocasional jaunt up to HITS for something different why would anyone showing in these divisions leave Long Island. The Long Island shows have the entries to increase the increment and all the shows are rated "C". Tell me if I'm missing something. So there you have it eighteen LIHSAA divisions, six don't exist off Long Island, five don't show on Long Island, and seven don't have any reason to leave Long Island.

Mar. 10, 2001, 04:58 AM
Micheal I have one question and one question only.After Monday's meeting when everyone is going to discuss this matter, what is going to decide the Final Answer? Because not for anything but if you thought your job was hard before this rule change, huh I think its harder now!!! Just to hear the input from everyone. But here is my question, What is the deciding factor on this issue. Because not for anything I dont care who what, where and why statistics say before this rule change things were just fine the way they were. Before you took on this job you knew what you were in for. So why should it change now? This is how things have been for a very long time and made people very happy you change this now is a big mistake. Come on think about it have you ever read so much grief before on something that you thought was right? It obvious has touched alot of people in a wrong doing,
What you mentioned in your posts above is that the reasoning for a rule change? And one more thing as this is MY FINAL QUESTION! I hope this meeting on Monday is going to be fair, and not wasting anyone's time if the LIHSSA has already made there minds up, and only having this meeting just so they look good in the public's eye by including us in this decision that has already been made. And that is my Final Question!!

M. O'Connor
Mar. 10, 2001, 05:44 AM
Obviously, this is the sort of discussion that should have taken place PRIOR to any changes to the system. A system that very few, if any, seem to have been dissatisfied with...and, while it SEEMS that a case MAY be made for CONSIDERING a change to the system, considering is a very different thing from IMPLEMENTING it without what they call "due process"---Michael, it may be that however valid the 20-show system may or may not be, the fact that it was implemented without the full understanding and consent of those who participate may well be its undoing. The fact is, that no matter what change is proposed, some will reject it because they reject anything that sounds different. Now that they think they've been snookered by having it adopted without "due process" they will be doubly suspicious, not to mention hostile. That being said, what you have presented so far makes sense, but you haven't yet illustrated the part about how the 20-show system will result in increasing entries for shows, or tipping the balance in favor of those who prefer to remain on LI. Here's a question: of the minority of competitors you say would be affected by the change to the 20 show system, you say that in 1999, twelve of the affected seventeen (or 70% of these 17), and in 2000 eight of the affected thirteen (or 60% of these 13) were high-score award winners-- You didn't mention what the actual effects were on these--where would they have ended up in the standings under your proposed system? Why would it be desireable to implement a new system that would apparently "target" the old system's winners? What are the benefits to adopting the new system over the old one?

Mar. 10, 2001, 05:49 AM
I will ask again, What was the problem with the old system? My common sense tells me that the rule change will tip the point tabulation in favor of those who don't want to show that much. If you enter a race and begin at the starting line why should someone jump in at the half way mark and get a chance to win? The end of the year award should reflect your total effort.

Mar. 10, 2001, 06:26 AM
My feelings exactly!!
The new system punishes the winners and the avid show-ers. Why should that be?
And Michael-
You're last post leads me to believe that no one has the need to show off LI. But they sill go. And when they take their Green Hunters and their Juniors and Ponies off LI they usually take their Adults and Childrens. And perhaps their Short Stirrups and Low-level riders stay home that weekend.
Why don't you ask Mat Sheridan, Frank DiMarsico, or Alvin why they leave LI and show else where. And, of course, there are others. And they CAN go. But when they do, they don't receive any points here. Even if their pony or horse is nicer than the one that won here while they were away. You've got to be in it to win it. A point system should not control WHO wins. Your culling process will.
And what part of the 91% and 93% showed minimally, that this new rule will be tipping the scales toward?

Isn't it all about encouraging more showing, and more showing on LI??

And, on a personal note, why are you so set on this? What should it matter to you how the points are tabulated?

Mar. 10, 2001, 06:31 AM
what is the-lisahaa...hehe if that's hjow you spell it..


M. O'Connor
Mar. 10, 2001, 07:22 AM
I think they are best left out of the discussion. It may be that the 20 show system IS better. If so, Michael will be able to address my questions and justify the switch. If the case can't be made and/or if the participants can't be convinced of the system's advantages over the old system, then we should not use it. If the case CAN be made for it, we'd be foolish not to at least consider it, if all the questions can be answered.

[This message was edited by M. O'Connor on Mar. 10, 2001 at 02:38 PM.]

Gold Dust
Mar. 10, 2001, 07:54 AM
Thank yo so much for finally stepping in and rallying for your point. Weather we agree or not things needed explaining and by all means that person is you! I read your post and reflected on it all night to type my response and not much to type anymore. Questions are already asked and answered! I just strongly feel that I believe the mysterious 17 we are talking about would be effected not in their favor. How can we as as community as small as that figure may be, let these people feel we have justified that they throw there money in the garbage? In the non-AHSA rated divisions how dare we say to these people 'hey, most of you are at the learning stage and here is the game as we play it here'. Not a good first impression for anyone! I guess you could say my big rally is for those 17 because I would think[and let me know if I am wrong] that they are what we might call 'the little guy'. And in my book, he matters! My god please explain the abuses and what you mean by that. Minds can wander on that and we need clarification on that so we can discuss that! I Think you will be very busy the next 3 days Michael so put on a pot of coffee! lol

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 10, 2001, 08:01 AM
I've posted all the charts on the website and you can access them from the links on the opening page. I strongly suggest you print hardcopies so they will be at hand. You should print them one per page, when done you should have six charts. For those of you not familiar with the process,highlight the chart with your cursor. It usually turns a shade of blue. then click on file on the top of the page. Next click print. Then click the button next to selection. Hit okay and you should be in business.The numbers on the top row of the charts are ranges for the number of shows attended (1-2,3-5 and so on). The numbers are the competitors in each division who fell into a particular range and the percentage each represent. The first chart is an overview of the entire season not including the out of towners from the Hampton Classic or the North Fork Classic. Wendy2 chart two and three will answer the question you posed last night about the percentages of competitors actually eligible for ribbons. The second chart reresents the meat and potatoes of LIHSA still breaking them up into different ranges for clarification. Chart three is the same as chart two except I added everyone in the 6 to 20 show together to get an overall view of the number of competitors eligible for a year end ribbon and choose for whatever reason not to exceed 20 shows. When I formulated this brainstorm almost a year and a half ago I designated these competitors as my target group. They all exhibited varying levels of committment to a particular division. I believed then as I do now they just need a little incentive to spark more interest. Before I go on let me point out the last column in the first chart for 1999 and 2000. This is one of the areas shows may prosper with the rule change and since most competitors come with a trainer attached at the hip each additional entry puts somewhere between fifty and a hundred dollars in his or her pocket. This is what the last column represents. I looked at each division and segregated any competitor who attended from ten to nineteen shows. I would hope you all agree ten or more shows represents a fairly high committment to a particular division. Next for each competitor I added the difference between the number of shows they attended and my goal of twenty shows. So if you attended ten shows I added ten, attended eleven I added nine and so on up to nineteen. The results in each can be found in the last column. I totaled the results and multipled by $120.00 to arrive at the figure you see. Why $120.00? Most divisions charge at a minimun $20.00 per class. Four classes to a division (three O/F and a hack) add a warm up or two in the equitation division and you have $120.00. In 1999 this might have added $38000.00 to Long Island shows and in 2000 a little over $48000.00.This is just for the shows,it doesn't include the possible additional revenue for trainers, braiders, shippers, grooms, food venders and all the other support needed to get a horse and exhibitor to the in gate. Keep in mind this only reresents the ten to nineteen group.If we could spark the six to nine group the possibilities could be even more dramatic. This post is getting a little long. I think I'll post it and continue your most recent comments on the next.One last mention before I leave. The 1-2 and 3-5 were dropped to keep the numbers in prospective. These two groups represent transient riders trying to find a home in a suitable division, warm ups, or people trying horses. Including them in the grand scheme of things would be useless and not an accurate view of show attendence.

Mar. 10, 2001, 10:16 AM
Hi everyone,
Well I just wanted to say that I think everyone understands one another grievences on this subject, But it is the weekend and I know this matter is an important issue but I am sure it can wait until Monday because I am sure everything that we have been saying on this is going to come out again on Monday's meeting. So why get ourselves all work up over the weekend. We can get worked up again on Monday! lol
I hope everyone has a good weekend and relax, go out to dinner have a bottle of wine, in Gold dusts eye, it would be a shot of Sambuca! And in Trips eye, the Mint cookies. Take care everyone see you Monday. Bye Bye,

M. O'Connor
Mar. 10, 2001, 11:30 AM
It seems that he is assuming that those who presently show at LESS than 20 shows would be able to take a shot at LIHSAA's and would therefore be persuaded to increase the number of shows they go to in order to do so...An examination of the charts Michael has posted on the LIHSAA website does indeed make this seem like a viable proposal, and one that perhaps might actually open the awards up to "the little guy" participating in the "local" divisions who currently does only a small number of shows. It is a concept that we shouldn't hesitate to think hard about, BEFORE implementation.....

Sorry to keep going Kiwi, but I am among those who are curious and wish to offer input and unfortunately, can't be in attendance on Monday night...

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 10, 2001, 11:31 AM
Don't worry about the 17 heavy hitters in 1999 and the 13 in 2000.They're doing fine and will still be in control of their own destiny. I have no intention of addressing them by name but here is the breakdown. In 1999 fourteen of them were after bigger goals and just sucked LIHSA in their vacuum. The other three just showed excessively in their divisions (I refer to this as abuse).In 2000 of the thirteen nine were looking past LIHSA to zone awards or zone finals two showed excessively and two just happened to do more than twenty five shows. I'm not asking you to put an off switch into place. If I wanted that I would have went for the top fifteen or maybe the top ten. I'm just asking for a governer. The attendence of the competitors trying for zone level awards isn't going to diminish. They still need to do that number of shows to attain their personal goals,which are above and beyond LIHSA. Maybe just maybe the 160 or so left will do a few more shows and see if they can nail down a year end prize. Why don't we just see what happens when we dangle that carrot in front of them. I told you the unfortunate 30 were still in control of their own destiny and here's why. The rule states only your top twenty shows will count after you reach your twenty first show. It doesn't say your must stop showing. Let's say in a perfect world you did your first twenty shows and won twenty champions (anyone who thinks that's possible should check into a clinic). Now if your one of the unfortunate 30 you know as well as I do there is always a better championship out there. So you do another show and I'll be dammed you win another championship, but this one is not good enough to make your top twenty list, just a throw away, or is it. You then realize you can't ad the points to your total, but you sure are keeping somebody from adding it to their total. So even after twenty shows you still control your own destiny. Only the role has changed from one who collects points to one who denies points. I stated last night changing to top twenty points would tip the points tabulation system towards the target group not tip the whole system towards the target group. You focused on my words and not what they represented. The overall system still leans towards the competitors who show heavy. So take down the banners that say "FREE THE UNFORTUNATE 30" as long as they lay down respectable results you need not worry about them. If they should falter or base their season on forty five twenty point horse shows. Who knows what might happen. No one is getting punished. If your good your good and you will win. If your not, taking a prize will just be a little harder, because you won't be able toload up as easely, but it isn't being made imposssible. All the points still count some in your personal account and the others in the "I have what you want" account.

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 10, 2001, 11:51 AM
Just a quick note to address your question on the vote. I believe the committee will take a new vote. I for one do not control one of the votes.

Gold Dust
Mar. 10, 2001, 02:07 PM
Michael,I will get back to your post later. Kiwi- who the heck are you? You obviously know me by my Cordial of choice!

Gold Dust
Mar. 10, 2001, 05:00 PM
Michael, I must admit that your charts and graphs show all the time and effort you have taken to put this together. Something I could never do so I commend you on that! I am sure they are quite self explanatory but I must wait for Marty to get home to explain them to me! I failed Algebra in school so math is foreign to me passed 2+2 lol. In simple terms that I will bring up at the meeting, I still feel that this will effect the little guy in certain divisions, that does not overshow and the whole goal to them is to go pick up a green, possibly pink ribbon at the dinner dance. Being on that committe I got to know many people and know that the lower ribbons are what the strive for. They know the quality of their horse or pony and just strive to be better horse people and some day possibly own that horse of quality. Champions will stay champions that is known but let the others stay where the are too! If you could show me how that will not change them then great but until then I still can not stop being their advocate!

Mar. 10, 2001, 05:13 PM
You certainly are driven!!!

Let's put the charts and figures aside for a bit-
I disagree that, with the current point system, we would be catering to that very small percentage who show avidly(too avidly, in your opinion). I see it on the flip side- with the new system, we would be putting them at a disadvantage. Because they choose to stay and patronize LI shows, they should carry and extra pound or two in their saddlebags??
Yes, I will be concerned about those few, even if they can hold their own. Every exhibitor matters, and every show he/she goes to matters also.
I also don't believe that this will greatly encourage more showing from the "target group". Most have an idea what shows they want to attend for whatever reasons, before the season starts. Once they start their year, the website will be more difficult to follow ( even though we will know everyone's status by the type color), and I don't see people rushing off to shows to "defend" their division's championship each week.
This is an offensive sport, not defensive.

Mar. 10, 2001, 07:29 PM
This statistical analysis is very interesting but unfortunately my screen does not want to let me view it in full . I have asked a few friends with different types of computers to print it out for me.Please explain to me how when there are 50 some weeks a year doing 35 is as you say Micheal, abusive?Why should anyone who does only 10 shows get an advantage ?Why is an entire system being changed for two people?Why are we on Long Island proposing to do things differently than our umbrella association the AHSA?If you did 10 shows all year long out of 50 weeks why should you win award?

Mar. 10, 2001, 07:34 PM
I must vent! I for one find it very hard to accuse someone of showing excessively as being abusive, based on the number of shows they go to and having no knowledge of the horses care. In my 20+ years of riding I have been "guilty" of doing more then 40 shows a year. Sometimes I even showed 3 times in a week. Those shows were however the only ride the horse got during that time. I did not lunge my horse for a 1/2 hour prior to showing, nor did I take multiple trips in warm-up. As a professional, I have taken many horses and riders to many shows to give them "mileage" or experience. I have brought clients to one show out east on a Saturday and then to a Hunter's Isle on a Sunday. No different than the Junior Hunters who must show in classes on two consecutive days at one horse show. I do not believe that anyone on the LIHSAA is in a position to judge who shows TOO much. I have sat through years of LIPHA meetings listening to complaints of bad horse shows to hear over and over, the LIPHA and the LIHSAA are not in a position to "police" shows. Now you want them to control the amount of showing we do? I'm sorry, Michael but that is not the pointkeepers job.

Gold Dust
Mar. 10, 2001, 07:43 PM
no thin mints- sorry- they are my favorites so they are all gone already!

Michael- Like I said, but I think you should change that to a pot of espresso by now!!!!

Linda Prisco
Mar. 10, 2001, 08:32 PM
What does the name LIHSAA stand for? I have always thought it was meant to promote horse shows on Long Island. People that show on the Island all year deserve to have their points counted at the end of the year. Alot of these people are not fortunate enough to attend some of the bigger shows off the island.
I would have to agree with GOLD DUST-rules should not be changed to accomodate a select few that can show off the island in the winter. LIHSAA should be for Long Islanders....Horse showing is hard enough
Leave the rules as they were. I say NO!

Mar. 11, 2001, 05:24 AM
A new voice from the silent crowd!!! And just in the nick of time!!!

I hope to see all the members of the silent crowd Monday night!! Everyone should have an chance to air their perspectives, as we all have done here, at the meeting. Perhaps we all, Michael included, are missing an important aspect of this situation.
So, no matter what your stand may be, it is very important that you take this opportunity to be involved in this pertinent issue.
This new rule will have an impact on anyone involved in showing.

M. O'Connor
Mar. 11, 2001, 05:25 AM
is going with this...however, I think that this idea has not been particularly well presented (as we all know, presentation "counts!"). Here are my final thoughts, which I hope someone can express at tomorrow night's meeting.

1) While at first the system may appear to "target" the winners under the old system, I agree that if the new rules are known and understood by the participants, that this would not actually be the case (BUT--the year has already begun, and many of the participants did NOT know the new rules--this is a HUGE problem, and one very valid reason to postpone this change at least until the 2002 show season.)...

2)As for the "target groups"...the premise that they may be enticed to enter more shows is intriguing, but might be somewhat flawed. Without knowing more about what motivates participants to choose a particular show or a particular number of shows to attend, we can't assume that they would attend more shows simply to attain a high score award. Which shows did those in the target group choose to attend, and why were these shows chosen? I think to make an accurate assumption about future actions based on just the number of shows attended in the past would not be possible--sorry, Michael, but I think you need even more data about this, if you can stand to collect it.

3) I think it is too late in this show season to obtain agreement from participants who:

a)do not fully understand the proposal to begin with

b)would be resistant to change anyway, no matter what the advantages/disadvantages

4)The possible advantages to the proposed system have not yet been made clear--so far, it appears that the winners may not in fact change, the points will be harder to keep, shows may see an increase in entries IF Michael's assumption that the "target goup" could be enticed to do 20 shows is valid ( the increase, using his figures would be $38,000/60, which works out to an average of $633.00 per show; this is assuming an even distribution of this increased participation among all shows--this is unlikely),.. --AGAIN, I think we need to know more about why particular shows are chosen over others before we can make any valid assumptions--

5)At least this issue has shown that LI 's horse show community is alive and kicking--that is GOOD.

HAVE A GOOD MEETING!!!!! (Ha Ha I have a whole box of thin mints--the GSA set up a table at HITS!!!! And you think I came to Ocala just for the good weather!!)

[This message was edited by M. O'Connor on Mar. 11, 2001 at 08:35 AM.]

Mar. 11, 2001, 05:33 AM
So glad to hear from another new Long Island face!!!Mary my mouth is watering!could you fed ex a box ?Or if you will be here bring me some??
I have to say that I see many serious problems with this new system and will speak about them mon. night!

[This message was edited by brilyntrip on Mar. 11, 2001 at 08:56 AM.]

Mar. 11, 2001, 05:41 AM
I have gone over the charts that you have put on the website and need to clear something up. The "Possible Entry Gain" column- that is pure speculation on your part, is it not? Based on the theory that, those in pursuit of a LIHSAA award, would show 20 times with the new rule in place. Do I have this correct?

Mar. 11, 2001, 05:48 AM
Why, I believe you summed it all up perfectly!!!! If lurkers read no other post on this thread, that is the one to read!!!!! Wonderful!!!

Gold Dust
Mar. 11, 2001, 08:50 AM
I have been holding off posting this but I thought it was time to break the ice!

The charts and graphs of Michaels have no doubt been something he has put a huge amount of work in this project. Give credit where it is due. I think it will take time and many questions from us to be able to grasp the whole concept.

Here is the bad news. On that note I think not only do we have to take time to understand the new proposed point system, I think the LIHSAA has to also step back and look at its system. One closed meeting a year is not enough to handle any situation and by far not one of this magnatude. More meetings a year and at least 2 open meetings so issues like this can be brought up! I think we all have learned a big lesson here not to let any issue come to this again. We as a community obviously want to stay informed so I believe we should be included a bit more.

Now- the board itself. I think this needs to be updated to a more diverse representation of the horse community. More active people need to be added and a few of the proffesionals you see all winter and through the summer that basically keep L.I. their home base!
I know this is a huge project that can not be solved this minute but I think this should be a matter we are aware of and get to work on as soon as this matter at hand is discussed.
Just a little matter to put in the 'to-do folder' ASAP!

Mar. 11, 2001, 10:16 AM
I have a feeling this meeting is going to be long one, And one pot of coffee isnt going to cut it. And forget about the Thin Mints, Trips got her eye on them, so if you need help with some stuff DustWomen let me know. Just had to break the ice here just for a moment. LOL

Laura Reed
Mar. 11, 2001, 02:14 PM
Remember, this is a meeting of the Long Island PHA and I hope that everyone who is planning on attending Monday evening is either a paid-up member of LIPHA for the 2001 year, or plans on writing a check for membership. Please remember to bring your check book and either renew your LIPHA membership, or join for the first time. It is the LIPHA that is the organization that brings the LI hunter/jumper community together and it is the LIPHA, along with some very hard working members, that has made this Monday's meeting possible. Hearty thanks to Marty and Debbie deLeyer for making the Mid-Island arena available to us.

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 11, 2001, 05:45 PM

Could you please point out which of your posts is not speculation? Everything that could happen about something being tried for the first time is speculation. My speculation is based on two years of investigation. How bout you?

Mar. 11, 2001, 06:47 PM
I am really tired of your snide insipid comments .Just because we do not think you are making your case there is no reason to adopt this attitude.We have our rights to our opinions just as you do.I can tell you what this will create Mike I have been in this business as a professional for longer than your children have been on this earth.I have seen different areas of the United States which deal with all the same problems Long Island deals with.

I already know exactly what I will do if this rule is forced down my throat.Several trainers on Long Island have told me what their plans will be.I know what shows I will show at and which ones I won't.Of course I had my plans made about this year's schedule a long time ago ,there will be slight changes made if I have to swallow this.I can tell you for a fact I won't show as much I'll stay home.I'll take the judging jobs that I have turned down in the past.Because I had a commitment to my students.I won't make it a goal to finish in the top six for any of my students.I won' make the banquet a priority .Why because LiHSAA will no longer represent me and my feelings about this sport .

This system is intrinsically unfair and weighted to the larger shows which already have an extra advantage.

Your premise that there will be x number more first year green hunters showing on Long Island is ludicrous.Anyone who has a really competitive first year horse isn't going to stay and show on Long Island and neither is that trainer if the first yr horse is a major priority.All of their students will go and show elsewhere.There will not be 10 additional children's hunters either .It won't happen .I know this business I know the trends I have been there and done that for thirty years .People that make the step to very very expensive horses and trainers do not stay and show on Long Island they have made the step up .That is the natural progression of this business!The new system is not I repeat not going to increase business for shows nor will it create additional horses showing throughout our show season.

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 11, 2001, 07:22 PM
I can only speculate on how the winter shows will possibilty benefit. Under the cumulative system all shows can only be viewed as points. A 75 point championship is the same as five 15 point shows or a 50 point reserve and a 25 point show.You get the point. Just points where a championship could be overcome by another competitor attending more shows. Under this system the only advantage to braving the elements are the smaller classes and the competition might be a little easier. This is a good strategy and one of the main reasons winter shows are attended.
I think the top 20 system will create even more interest in the winter shows for someone looking for a year end award as a goal. Under this system a quality winter show becomes more important.
Let's say a competitor earns three winter championships for a total of 210 points. Because of the larger classes and tougher competition it might take a competitor who starts showing in spring seven shows to get the same 210 points. The winter exhibitor still has seventeen positions to fill after 210 points while the exhibitor who starts in the spring only has thirteen left. There would be a definite advantage to attend winter shows and try to bank away some quality points.

Mar. 11, 2001, 07:27 PM
My speculation is based on 32 years of showing here on Long Island (as much as 50 some-odd times in a year). I speculate I've got a pretty good clue about LI High Score Awards by now!

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 11, 2001, 08:24 PM
Your right 10 additional green hunters would be ludicrous, if that was what I said. The possible gain column doesn't represent additional animals. It represents possible additional entries in a division based on the exhibitors already showing on the island.

There are quite a few I this I that and me this and me that you're planning to have your students pay for. If you follow through on half of your threats I think you'll have plenty of time to judge because they will pick up their saddles and head down the road. Because there is always a trainer willing to take them on. That is the nature of the business and you should know you've been doing it longer than my children have been on this earth.

By the way I've been told I'm doing a good job making my case. How many people does "we" represent.

Mar. 11, 2001, 08:42 PM
Has anyone else looked at the difference in the numbers between the total horses shown in 2000 at 1144 and the number of horses that showed the actual 6 required shows, a total of 182. That is a drop of 962 horses!! Shouldn't we be looking at why we can't get riders to do the required 6 shows? That is a HUGE target group. Even the number of horses that do 3 to 5 shows which is a good chunk of money is high. Why can't we get them to show a couple of times more? It doesn't look like the 20 show rule will encourage this group and it's a big group to overlook.

Mar. 11, 2001, 09:21 PM
I have been ghosting here for a while now and I think it is time for me to speak out..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

While I am an active exhibitor on and off long island I do not believe that the way in which this rule came to be nor the idea of this rule change is fair... it will benefit those who show off long island more then it will the people without the money the means or the animals to travel off long island....

while Michael you have done a wonderful job at keeping the points for long island for the past 2 years and a wonderful job in explaining this new rule, the under the breath snide unnecessary comments are not fair nor right i don't think it is professional nor adult like to talk down to anyone who wants to know what is going to effect their living or their hobby... all we want to know are the facts and by assuming that we abuse our horses (and who are you to assume that my horse is being abused by going to 20 or more shows are you at the barn after the show when i am making sure he is comfortable {politicing packing cold hosing branning pampering etc. etc.....} or when I would just show up during the week not to ride but just see him while he rest in between weeks off?) and are speculators who know nothing even though most here have been in this industry for 15 20 30 and 40 years but yet we know nothing but you know all because you hold the charts and we cannot have opinions on the subject without being criticized for them becasue we do not have the charts.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

This BB has turned from being very calm and adult like to a name calling battle and I think that this meeting is going to be a long and loud one... I am sorry and also thankful that I will not be in attendance. I hope that everyone has a nice night tomorrow..

Mar. 11, 2001, 10:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Remember, this is a meeting of the Long Island PHA <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm glad you brough this up, Laura. This thread has become talk of the town so to speak that in the past weeks I've been hearing from people who visited the COTH in the past few days for the first time just to read it. Even those without internet access are talking about it. A few have mentioned they're planning on attending the meeting tomorrow night, even though they're neither trainers nor memners of the LIPHA. I'm not planning on being there myself, but I am wondering if this will be a problem for them?

A side note: the George Morris event LIPHA sponsored last spring was a great idea. Is there anything similar planned for this year?

M. O'Connor
Mar. 12, 2001, 04:32 AM
No one should have to step over and/or around anyone else's "attitude" in order to get to the point of the discussion . Sorry, Michael, but I think that if you hope for your proposal to be considered, that you really need to withold the personal "asides." As a matter of fact, in my opinion, they are rather out of line. I am quite surprised at the tone you have taken in some instances here; it is not helping anyone to see your case, and such distressing commentary can only obfuscate matters at hand. As the statistician among us, you should trust the numbers to speak for themselves, without the additional.... snideness. (I agree that it is quite unprofessional). It's all in the presentation, and any ruffling of feathers should be avoided if a rational discussion is to take place.

In case I have not already made myself clear, I believe that any consideration of a switch to the proposed 20 show system should be postponed for at least a year. Gold Dust, you have not opened up a can of worms at all--your comments are right on the money, and the most constructive thing we could do at this point, in my opinion, is to table the 20 show proposal for the time being pending a close study of its ramifications and further study of what motivates that group that Michael seeks to target (the 6-10ers or whoever). We should then devise an agenda based on taking a hard look at how we do things, adjusting our methods to suit the newly awakened (and hopefully dues-paying) masses, and then go forward. It may be that LIHSAA /LIPHA need to be "tweaked." After (how many years?) this should not be surprising. The internet / website may just make it easier, and more do-able to spread the burdens and responsibilities more evenly among us, and then no one can complain about being "in the dark" about what is going on.

[This message was edited by M. O'Connor on Mar. 12, 2001 at 07:47 AM.]

[This message was edited by M. O'Connor on Mar. 12, 2001 at 07:50 AM.]

Mar. 12, 2001, 05:09 AM
Well Dustwomen I think the coffee and the Thin Mints arent a good idea, I think you need to get a BOUNCER!!!!!
I hope everyone can get there ideas in order and get a handle on things by tonite or even take a Nap for that matter. Nothing is going to get accrossed in the right matter if it starts out like it is ending on this BB. Yes we are all upset but now the time has come to voice ourselves and conduct this in a matter that we can all agree on a FINAL ANSWER to this mess!!

Mar. 12, 2001, 05:30 AM
Mary should become a capital hill advocate !Very well said thank you!
kiwi i think that a bouncer won't be neede as long as all the people at this meeting are adult!
For Mike ,you are a dear dear man who really believes you are right .I understand that but all your figures cannot reflect what this industry is.If someone is telling you that you are making your case you need to check just who they are.I bet they are the 5 or six people that were supportive when you first brought this turkey up.out here in the trenches you are" Not" changing anyone's mind and are in fact turning people offwith you snide asides!i know who will be there tonight and who won't .Do you?

Mar. 12, 2001, 06:05 AM
The way the website is waiting for the tabulation system to be decided on, The check that you are looking for will await on the decision of tonites meeting. Unless writing checks will buy the votes!!

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 12, 2001, 06:43 AM
I agree the 3-5 group is a significant number. I didn't address them directly because I wanted to focus on exhibitors who were actually eligible for a year end award. I do think the rule will spark some interest in this group if they are committed to a particular division. In 1999 33 of the 187 in the 3-5 group attended 5 shows. Six could have been in the ribbons with another show or two and one would have ribboned if they did the required 6 shows.In 2000 32 of the 207 in the 3-5 attended 5 shows. Two could have won ribbons with a show or two and two would have ribboned if they reached six.

Michael McCarthy
Mar. 12, 2001, 09:55 AM
Just a quick burb to get one fact straight. I refered to to abuse of the system and only the system. I looked back on my posts and not one mentioned animals. This one is for the record. Do I think doing 50 shows is abusing an animal. NO!!!! I do believe it is running your animal hard which may or may not catch up with you down the line. Abuse No!!!. Proposing this change had nothing to do how many shows anyone attends with respect to their animals. It has to do with how many shows one competitor attends with respect to the other competitors in the same division.

Gold Dust
Mar. 12, 2001, 11:28 AM
I hate to see it has gotten to this. Now it is time for anything I need to say, be better off face to face in the meeting. Peoples feelings are getting hurt here and the stress of it all is getting to all of us!

Mar. 12, 2001, 12:19 PM
I don't know about mike my feelings aren't hurt I just disagree with his speculations .I don't think I have said anything snide snotty or "insipid" but if his feelings are hurt I am sorry no hurt meant.Ok Mike?

Mar. 13, 2001, 04:04 AM
Well for any of you who weren't there there were no calls to the swat teams!About 35 people showed up .Everyone expressed their opinion vehemently!.6 LIHSAA board members were there to see it all.After a good hour and a half board members were asked to hold a vote then and there.They refused ,which made many believe that something was up.It is now thought that the LIHSAA board will not overturn the "20" horse show rule even in the face of overwhelmingly negative sentiment.

Mar. 13, 2001, 07:42 AM
It will not end if the new rule is passed. The issue of timing will be brought to the surface. Major debates will ensue about when the rule will take affect and the way in which this all was done.

However, if it is not passed, the horse show community will resume its serenity... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mar. 13, 2001, 07:49 AM
How beneficially coincidental that this has occurred within the same time frame that Country Fair committed suicide....

Mar. 13, 2001, 11:16 AM
I Missed something here?

Mar. 13, 2001, 02:08 PM
Well it was one of the largest LIPHA meetings I've seen in years. Approximately 35 people, representing a good portion of the LI trainers and horse show managers came to discuss the "top 20" tabulation system. Michael McCarthy did his best to explain his theory and his statistics.

Basically a rider would accumulate points at each show he/she does up until their 21st show. At that time each additional show you do, your lowest score would be replaced by a higher one. You can continue to show in hopes of adding better show points to your "top 20"

The idea is to prevent a horse from getting out ahead by accumulating a lot of early points and enable horses that don't show year round to have a chance to catch up. Hopefully this would encourage those who go to 6-15 shows to attend a few more in order to be in the running for an award.

There was a great deal of discussion with the main points or questions being:
1. Why change a tabulation system that has worked for years, and wasn't a problem to begin with. "If it ain't broke don't fix it"
2. Why did the committee make a decision without opening a dialog with the people it would affect.
3. The award it self, which is modeled after the AHSA Horse of the Year Award, and Zone Awards is named "HIGH SCORE" and should reflect the highest score achieved.
4. When an exibitor pays his/her dues, and entry fees, trainer fees ect. at each show, supporting the LI horse shows,and the horse community, each and every point they earn should count.
5. All riders start the year at the same point, with 0, with the same advantages and an equal chance to accumulate points. There already is an incremental reward to even out the playing field for those horses who earn ribbons at the bigger shows with more entries.
6. It was felt that the winter and smaller shows would suffer under this system as riders would be less inclined to brave the elements and search out the bigger point shows.
7. The exhibitors that currently earn the 4th,5th, and 6th, awards may be hurt because thier top 20 points may not accumulate as much as a total years efforts.
8. It was pointed out that out of the 182 riders who did 6 or more shows,in the year 2000, there were 138 who received year end awards given. In other words more than 80% could have received a prize. There are a total of 156 awards were offered.

An informal show of hands on this change going forward was an overwhelming NO. Now it is in the LIHSAA's hands, who will have a closed meeting and hopefully a revote. It appeared that the committee was evenly split on this issue. Whether the committee chooses to heed the voices of those at the meeting and what reprocussions there might, be is unclear.

Mar. 13, 2001, 05:34 PM
I just received a call and have been informed that the LIHSAA has decided to table any changes to the point tabulation system until they can clear up some of the issues. At this point I think it was the only decision that could be made and I thank the powers to be for their fairness.

Mar. 14, 2001, 06:13 AM
Your recap was accurate and I thank you for bringing those not in attendance up to speed.
I received a call from Carolyn yesterday. She has made a decision that I believe is a good one. This rule change will be tabled this year. This will give everyone time to get educated on it. I was the first board member she called, and she was hoping all others would concur with her. Once this is passed by ALL the members, She is going to ask Mike to post the decision on the website. IT WILL NOT BE OFFICIAL UNTIL THEN.
If this goes through, I cannot stress it enough- GET TO THE MEETINGS. I was told that Michael would be in attendance and would answer any questions. And this is a good time to become a member of the PHA. Should it come to a vote of the members of the PHA, you will have a say.

Mar. 14, 2001, 06:15 AM
An error in writing I got so worked up writing it that I meant to say when talking about the others who were NOT infavor of it was there source of income. God didnt want that to go without getting FIXED! Thank god I read it after I posted it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Mar. 14, 2001, 08:06 AM
Well oviously you are probably reading my fixed question but are saying to yourself what is that well the BB screwed up my first Post. So here it is.
This question is for the Board members, I ask you when you first took the on this rule change there a few people who voted, and a few people who would of like too but were never notified. So there is your first mistake on this Brain Storm idea that has already has everyone talking. So you voted on this without half of the others and came to a decision. But then everyone got talking and we were going to have a meeting with everyone to talk this out. That went over great didnt it, you couldnt even take a vote when there were six of you there, HMMM so what made you take a vote the first time. Well I have to say that I am taking this very very personnaly and you cant tell me any different. I can only say that this is supposed to work for everyone and if we cant come to a fair vote then why should if change. You see all the problems this is causing and amimosity that there it now!! Things will never be the same.
the only people that this is favoring too are the people are lucky enough to be able in summering on Long Island for 3 months and living somewhere else for the rest. And still being able to go up and get that great ribbon that they strided all year to get. Not! they dont deserve to get what everyone else can get because that is a true Long Islander not a part timer. Part timer should get part time points. And be happy with that. That is how is should go, because I dont care who you are and where you live Long Island points are for the ones who support year round. So this rule change is going to hurt the trainers who stay on the Island with there students because every ribbon they recieved is theres and you cant take that away from them when they were there to compete and more important Paid for. YEAR ROUND Points. Dont have to be a brain surgeon to figure what that is suppose to mean. You made alot of angry people out there that are not going to support Long Island shows like they used too. Because not for anything I just care if they ride good and are happy with themselves and if we get lucky and recieve a ribbon on long island great because those 4th, 5th and 6ths and up at the end of the year. So what I am trying to say is that you will be making it hard for the shows because those kids make alot of money for them and at this point I rather stay home or even for that fact go off the island and show. I rather give that a new change then stay for this one.

Gold Dust
Mar. 14, 2001, 11:26 AM
I am glad to hear the board will be taking all of what happened into consideration here! As Wendy said it was a large meeting and only one trainer in the room seemed to be in favor of it. Needless to say there were not many people seeing his point either! Michael does have some work to get most of us to feel this will be of great benifit to L.I.
Most importantly with all the confusion we did not set a date for the next P.H.A. meeting. Can we post one so we can keep the room full again and where it will be held? Also-when will the next open LIHSAA open meeting be held? As I have stated in a previos post I feel the board must take a look at the system and see that one meeting a year is no way enough! Let's make sure everyone is informed on things here so things like this do not happen again. Everyone became involved in the last PHA meeting so lets keep them involved and the LIHSAA do the same please!

Gold Dust
Mar. 14, 2001, 02:46 PM
To get back to that post Janet. One point I did not get to make at the meeting. Myself, I would have to re-think my plan of horse shows to attend if and when the 20 point horse show would come into effect. One thing I do not think the committe has taken into consideration. I stated my case at the meeting that I was fighting for the exhibitor who many of them strive for the lower level ribbons at the dinner dance. If the new scoring system would come into play I would probably take them to an unrated series that also has an end of year awards and give them their education there! At least at a series like that they would have a realistic goal. Country Fair was a great series for that and unfortunatly held its last show in 2000! We may have to find another series or beg Janet to start printing prize lists for 2001!!! lol! Any committee member reading this that will raise there hand in agreement to this system remember how many more think along the same lines as me. That is ALOT of buisness L.I. horse show managers are about to loose! I liked the fact that going to a rated horse show I was able to show my clients what the real world was all about and the goals they had to strive for. The new proposed system seems to tell me come to our shows with a quality horse or do not come at all!

Mar. 15, 2001, 10:42 AM
is it over or did we just stop the discussion on the COTH?

Mar. 15, 2001, 06:15 PM
we will however be using this board for discussion on th e topic

Mar. 16, 2001, 07:34 AM
When Michael first introduced his idea, it was to "tighten up" the points and make things more competitive. OK, What about if we were still on accumulative points but did not offer any points for champion or reserve? It would still reflect the horse that wins the most, but he would not be able to get out in front so far. What do you guys think about that?
I don't have the points in front of me- maybe, if Michael is reading this, he could take one division from last year and show us how the results would have been using this system.

Gold Dust
Mar. 16, 2001, 05:30 PM
All you have to do is look at the last couple of year end award winners in the LIHSAA jumper division over the years and see how close the points are. Not too often do you see someone way out in fromt on that system. If the main concern is tightening up the point spread there is your simple solution right there. No champion or reserve champion points awarded. SIMPLE!

Mar. 17, 2001, 06:49 AM
Michael, are you still out there, and can you tell us how the points would have gone in at least one division? I can't really research this like you can, as you have the points!!