Open Discussion

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Good to go:
So Erin where are you?? I think enough is enough with this topic...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh for heaven's sake! The topic moved away almost immediately from SS to generalities. It would be more appropriate to give this thread a new title but it seems to me there's a worse prejudice in shutting up mention of sexuality . Did you ever think that there are those on the list who are gay who would rejoice in good news about someone else without all the uptight straight people jumping in saying 'no, no, we can't have that here; we shouldn't be talking about this.' That shows fear of the subject in my mind. Anti-gay prejudice in the horseworld or the rest of the world is not conquered by stifling any mention of being gay. We'll be over the prejudice when nobody cares, but we're on the way to getting over it when we can say, yes, I'm gay, or she's gay, or he's gay, and it's received like, oh, okay, no big deal, which is the sense I got from the last thread.

Anne (who's ex is gay and has found that there is less prejudice in the people who ask a direct question than in those who run around saying don't ask, don't tell). Just my opinion.

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Good to go:
So Erin where are you?? I think enough is enough with this topic...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh for heaven's sake! The topic moved away almost immediately from SS to generalities. It would be more appropriate to give this thread a new title but it seems to me there's a worse prejudice in shutting up mention of sexuality . Did you ever think that there are those on the list who are gay who would rejoice in good news about someone else without all the uptight straight people jumping in saying 'no, no, we can't have that here; we shouldn't be talking about this.' That shows fear of the subject in my mind. Anti-gay prejudice in the horseworld or the rest of the world is not conquered by stifling any mention of being gay. We'll be over the prejudice when nobody cares, but we're on the way to getting over it when we can say, yes, I'm gay, or she's gay, or he's gay, and it's received like, oh, okay, no big deal, which is the sense I got from the last thread.

Anne (who's ex is gay and has found that there is less prejudice in the people who ask a direct question than in those who run around saying don't ask, don't tell). Just my opinion.

[Black Market Radio]

...So I will add my reply here. Well, I live near SF, so I am very tolerant, it's a lifestyle they choose for themselves, and as long as they don't try and force themselves on me, I don't care. I wouldn't want a straight male to force himself upon me, or try and kiss me if I didn't like him (besides, my BF would have a prob with that LOL!) as much as I would want a lesbian to try and kiss me. I have many gay friends, and it doesn't bother me in the least bit, male OR female. I also have a gay cousin and uncle, both in monogomous relationships, and I consider their SO's family. I may not exactly agree with that type of lifestyle, but I will not condemn a person because of their choices. I will judge them for who they are, not who they are attracted to, as I feel it is what is inside that counts. And even though I don't agree with it, I don't come out and say I don't agree with it. If they ask me what I think about them being gay, I will tell them that I don't have a problem with it at all, and that it is there business. Life and friendship is worth more than who kisses who.

[Kellybird]

Devildog--the world needs a bunch more people like you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Hephaistion]

Thank you very much Anne for starting this - whether or not it goes anywhere doesn't matter. The fact that its been brought up is what counts.

I actually did post again under the "SS" thread agreeing that this topic of "gay people" and horses is a good one to continue. I am happy to discuss it /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And am curious about what others think about why there seems to be an association between gay men (and women) and the horse industry. My friends and I have never been able to figure that one out...

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-12-2000).]

[Goodmudder]

AnnFs: If you read my post on the former thread, I never suggested that the topic should not be discussed by whomever cares to discuss it - but I believe that people should be able to make their own choices as to their own names being used - a common courtesy, I would have thought. No, I'm not prejudiced - just trying to be thoughtful of individuals.

[Hephaistion]

Thank you to whomever removed the old thread.

[Reckoning]

I'd like to second that thank you. I refrained from posting on that thread so that it would disappear more quickly. It seemed counterproductive to keep the thread at the top of list when I thought it should be removed immediately.

Discussing sexuality is one thing, discussing a specific person's sexuality is another. As for this thread- I'm all for it!

I was exposed to same sex couples at an early age (8 or so) from riding with a man who lived with his partner. My parents never made an issue of it. In retrospect, I realize that this relationship is what solidified the idea that people live together when they love each other in my mind. From that early age on, I knew that love was what made families. It was the common denominator. Gender is unimportant. When a person decides to buy a horse, they look for certain qualities of which gender is not usually one. If I found the perfect horse for me, I can tell you it wouldn't matter a bit if it was a gelding, mare, or stallion. I would buy it. As would all of you. Why it matters so much when people choose other people, I have never been able to understand.

[pwynnnorman]

Live and let live--and anyone who thinks otherwise, IMO, needs to get a life.

I dunno, Jair, about the gays and horses thing, and I don't know if the following is relevant, but...

Has anyone noticed how a lot of horsepeople have a love of music? (At one point, I kept running into horse people who play the flute, just like me.) And there are other things I've found which seems to "go" with horse interests...but for some reason I can't quite think of any right now! Anybody else?

Oh, in h-j-d-ct (not western): liberalism rather than conservatism. Think so?

[Black Market Radio]

Pwynn, I play piano and guitar as well as sing, and my trainer has a gorgeous singing voice an dis teaching herself piano as well. I also know many other equestrians who play instruments. I eventually want to get a harpsicord...

[JRG]

I just don't understand, call me nieve but I could care less what anyone does as consenting adults in there own bedrooms. It doesn't consern me and don't care who you are. If you are nice to me I will be nice back, plain and simple. At one point I believe it was called common curtesy.

[ccoronios]

Many years ago, a good friend and I were bemoaning the fact that there were several very attractive young men in "our world" who would rather sleep with each other than with either of us. This was very distressing. (we were 20 - it WAS distressing)
Anyway, one evening after a show, we were questioning it again, and Lee's boyfriend happened to be there (so we didn't discuss how distressed we were - just wondering why). Rick didn't know which end of a horse ate, but he looked at us like we were from a different planet and said, "Well, that's easy to figure out." Our turn to give "the look" - he said, "It's so obvious.. riding is an art, but you're dealing with an animal that outweighs you by about 1000 pounds and has a mind of its own. A gay guy has more strength than a woman, but has a woman's soul and finesse. Of course, they're wonderful riders." Well, duh. And this from a construction worker!

[Snowbird]

I am a student of history and sociology, I don't think we should be so sure that there are only supposed to be two sexes. I think that are many examples during the process of evolution that show there is room for other points of view.

It appears to me that even in the animal kingdom there are 5 sexes. In history other civilizations have known that and tolerated it. Why in this so called civilized world does anyone care what anyone else does in their bedroom?

I do care deeply what people do to children whatever their sexual identification. Children need to find themselves and identify themselves and grow to make up their own minds about their pleasure. Gender identity is a complex and difficult thing, it is not so simple as some would like to believe.

We should not judge, nor can we judge anyone until there is proof that there is only one "right" choice. That's why this kind of a thread can be hurtful and therefore serves no beneficial purpose. We will not convert those who are prejudiced.

[Finzean]

LOL Carol!! Makes sense to me!!

But I've got to second JRG... as long as it's 2 consenting adults, not my issue or my business.

I have many gay men friends and I just love it! Husband loves what they've done with my dress clothes wardrobe!!! (tom girl at heart & would wear barn clothes 24/7 if left to own devices! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) Now he can take me to his business functions and not be embarrassed because I came in my "good" jeans!! (No it's not really that bad)

[Inverness]

Why are we so hung up on sexuality in this country anyway? Love is love is love.

[AHC]

Well said everyone. I too did not weigh in on the other thread, although if I had it would have been to say that if I could go to a clinic with any hunter trainer/rider in the country, SS would certainly be the person I would choose. He's amazing, and I hear only good things about his training methods.

To add to what Inverness said, I am happy for those who have found love, sometimes mystified at how they do it, and hope that someday I too will find someone I want to be with for good (just broke up with a long-term boyfriend, so am feeling a little sensitive about that issue these days).

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
Thank you very much Anne for starting this - whether or not it goes anywhere doesn't matter. The fact that its been brought up is what counts.
[snip]
And am curious about what others think about why there seems to be an association between gay men (and women) and the horse industry. My friends and I have never been able to figure that one out...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're welcome. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think the gay association is American; in other countries it's not considered gay to ride h/j at all. We Americans are a pretty prudish bunch when it comes to sexuality.

In my experience, the gay thing is more associated with hunters because hunters are so detail-oriented - having to look just so, be just so, that obsession with every little detail often does not appeal to young boys. I'm also involved with Pony Club and the boys have much more fun playing polocrosse or eventing; these guys tell me that the spit & polish and obsession with appearance of the hunter ring is BORING. Perhaps the creating of a pretty picture is more appealing to gay guys than to the average adolescent male; perhaps straight adolescent mails are not as advanced and it's harder for them to have the patience and skills to succeed in hunters. Mainly, I think it's really nothing more than an American stereotype that is feeding off itself to the point that boys who may have chosen hunters don't because they're told it's gay, so we see less straight boys in hunters, so that must mean only the gay ones do hunters, and round and round we go.

I read somewhere that in the USA 95% of English riders are female, and 90% of Western riders are male. The Western riders around here are learning tasks (penning, roping - accomplish a concrete task), while the hunters are learning how to not only get a horse around a course, but to look good doing it. Different end goals: pen the cow, score a polocrosse goal, follow hounds cross-country at speed (doesn't matter how you look - more appealing for awkward adolescent boys who physically mature slower than girls) or you can look good going around a riding ring, where two 13-yr olds, a girl and a boy, will have different physical finesse - she'll most likely be more coordinated at that age while he's getting into the adolescent gawkies big time. I think that's part of the non-appeal of hunters for a lot of boys who want to zoom around and not worry about finesse.

[pwynnnorman]

But isn't it equally steotypical to state that gay guys are "feminine"? There are masculine homosexual men out there, too, right? Or are you saying that the more "sensitive" ones (and I don't know about that either: I've known at least two guys of that persuasion who were as "sensitive" as a slug) prefer English sports for the same reasons that women do?

I'd be interested to know the statistics, actually, because I think we are generalizing based on limited personal observation. I suspect the real numbers wouldn't support our speculations.

[rescuemom]

I too would like to see statistics. I'm not sure that there is any greater ratio of gay to straight in the horse community than in the *real* world. It may be that our perception is skewed because there is a greater openness about sexual orientation?

On the gay=feminine issue: There's a Gay Rodeo Association, openly gay rodeo participants. Does anyone consider bull-riding a feminine sport (notwithstanding the few women bull riders)?

Maybe a bit far afield, but I have always wondered why so many straight men seem to feel threatened by the mere presence of gay men.

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pwynnnorman:
But isn't it equally steotypical to state that gay guys are "feminine"? There are masculine homosexual men out there, too, right? Or are you saying that the more "sensitive" ones (and I don't know about that either: I've known at least two guys of that persuasion who were as "sensitive" as a slug) prefer English sports for the same reasons that women do?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hope you don't mean me. I never said gay guys are 'feminine'; I said they're gay guys. Stop thinking that gay equals feminine; it's not true and not only exerts pressure on gays and inhibits straights from acting in honest ways they might act but won't because of the gay stereotype; this is not good. You are of course right that "gay men are feminine and gay women are masculine" is another huge stereotype/misconception. We're caught in our century: we just happen to live in this time/country with these views and sometimes it's hard to transcend them. Hundreds of years ago men wore long, curled hair and bright colors and women rode astride long before the sidesaddle came into fashion....many of us are mentally trapped in our narrow times and can't see before or beyond.

Sometimes you hear people talking about 'gay-dar' and it's such a hoot; they go on about how they can always tell; meanwhile they don't have a clue that some of the people at the table with them are gay. But they don't 'look' gay--good grief! How ridiculous!

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 07-13-2000).]

[Ben and Me]

What really bothers me is that kids (especialy guys) my age seem to find it the ultimate put-down to call someone gay. I'm the only one of my friends who seems to NOT have a problem with homosexuality. Little do my guy-friends know, 1 out of every 10 of them will probably end up being gay! But oh well, whatever floats their boat.

I think that if kids my age had more of a chance to be around people who are different from them (either in sexuality, race, age, etc) they would NOT be so condescending (I hope I used that word correctly! Hehe)

Great topic Anne.

[Weatherford]

What's Rita Mae Brown say? Something along the lines of if sexuality were on a scale of 1 to 10 with 1 & 10 being extremely straight and extremely gay, most of the world's population would land right in the 3-7 range. (Actually, she may have said 4-6, but who's counting?) Interesting thought...

[Hephaistion]

Now THIS is more like it! Good discussion.

Ccornios - LOVED your friend's viewpoint that riding is an art. How true.

Pwyn/Devildog: I have also noticed the correlation between horses and music - Hey I play the flute too! As well as piano and guitar. Bill Steinkraus was a violinist and I think he said it had something to do with being able to connect the mind and hands in harmony. I have always felt that my ability to play musical instruments has helped me considerably to ride my horse correctly on the flat and in dressage.

and Ann - about the neat thing - you hit the nail on the head!!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I admit to my strong and sometimes overwhelming urge to be "neat and tidy". My favourite part of showing is getting my horse ready - bathing, clipping, braiding etc. Love all that stuff.

As for other things that go with horses - anyone else out their have a thing for figure skating? I've noticed a lot of riders seem to follow that as well.

[HAC]

My story looking back was quite funny. When I was sixteen, I went out with the hounds on a daily basis. I met this older guy(19 yrs.) out there who was working for the master excercising horses. We hit it off and became good friends(well I had a huge crush on him)and hung out through the summer. I thought I had struck gold, a guy I could date and ride with(and who had a nice car). He asked me out towards the end of the summer, but my father would not allow it since he was an older guy. A few years later he came out and we had a laugh about the whole dating thing. I of course had to inform my dad that he would have been the safest date I ever had, since he was probably more interested in my guy friends than in me.

[ccoronios]

My best friend/alter ego/soulmate is a guy I dated for a while many years ago. I left for the summer and he came out of the closet. We continued to be best of friends - I even ended up living with him and his partner for a couple months. He had known since puberty that he was "different", finally recognizing how/why - and was so miserable inside his skin. When he came out, his self came out - and became a much more content person. You need to be content with yourself before you can be of any value to anyone else....

[VTrider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HAC:
My story looking back was quite funny. When I was sixteen, I went out with the hounds on a daily basis. I met this older guy(19 yrs.) out there who was working for the master excercising horses. We hit it off and became good friends(well I had a huge crush on him)and hung out through the summer. I thought I had struck gold, a guy I could date and ride with(and who had a nice car). He asked me out towards the end of the summer, but my father would not allow it since he was an older guy. A few years later he came out and we had a laugh about the whole dating thing. I of course had to inform my dad that he would have been the safest date I ever had, since he was probably more interested in my guy friends than in me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


HAC - It is funny you say that - this is the same reason why my parents never minded sending me away to shows when I was a teenager - heck - no one there was going to hit on me!

[pwynnnorman]

All this is fine and dandy, but I STILL don't think that guy should stroll around naked on Survivor...

[Note: I'm being intentionally irrelevant.]

[bs&what'n]

Interesting.

My friend's husband is a trainer and is straight and he is NOT interested in the finer details of riding such as grooming, braiding... But, on the other hand, he can shoe his own horses. Not to say his horses arent clean or are unprofessional looking, but that is his wife's detail. Also, his fashion sense is horrible but it is no matter to him.(wife helps out here again) When students complain that his oh so untrendy garb is embarrassing, he shrugs. He is totally into the riding, teaching, training and barn maintenance. Many people that have come to him from gay trainers find him to be competant but missing on the "finer" skills of comunication.

He is certainly NOT into music, art, theater, books... and dancing - forget about it. Funny thing, no rhythm on the floor, quiet still, rhythmical courses on the hunters and jumpers.

Wonder why some of these stereotypes fit (not to say they all do) Must be how we, as a society, come up with them.

[pwynnnorman]

BTW, Jair, I also play the piano (minored in music as an undergrad--for love, not talent: I really suck, but I've never enjoyed a subject more, no matter how embarassing it was during performances. I never got a grade in my minor higher than a C-, except in Music Appreciation). So I guess the real question is: Are you any good?

[Hephaistion]

LOL ! Am I any good? Hahaha. Sorry, my mind is in the gutter. That just struck me as funny considering this topic

Seriously though, Pwynn, I am a fairly good pianist, not brilliant, but I went through all the grades with B+ and the occasional A as well as winning the odd recital/competition. I didn't like competing though because for me its all about the enjoyment of playing the music. I love to play and to my ear it sounds pretty good (my partner though thinks I'm brilliant /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

I play the guitar mostly by ear - took basic lessons but mostly just fool around with contemporary stuff like Great Big Sea, Barenaked Ladies etc. I doubt I'm any good, but love to do it.

[Retrophish]

I have some questions, now that this topic seems to be better accepted. Since Ive not had very many close or open relationships with gay men/women - I have often wondered about some things, but have never had the chance to ask.

Especially considering my science background, I have varying theories about the origen of homosexuality and the resulting public reactions through history.

I hope that my ignorance on the subject isnt offensive, but my questions (to anyone that might know) are:

When does a person realize that they are homosexual - specifically and how long after til a person comes out? (I realize this varies)

After coming out, what is the reaction by the family? friends?

Do you, gay or non, feel homosexuality is a choice or genetically determined - or both?

In what way(s) do you most feel society's intolerance?

[JAGold]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:

Pwyn/Devildog: I have also noticed the correlation between horses and music - Hey I play the flute too! As well as piano and guitar. Bill Steinkraus was a violinist and I think he said it had something to do with being able to connect the mind and hands in harmony. I have always felt that my ability to play musical instruments has helped me considerably to ride my horse correctly on the flat and in dressage.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe because rhythem is so important to both music and riding? Often, riders are good dancers, because they allow their body to follow the music much as they follow the horse's stride or jump.

Of course, I'm one to talk...I can't hold a tune in a paper bag http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

This is a good discussion and I'm glad to see it handled so well. Riding has been a part of my life since I was 8, and amongst the side effects of countless hours at the barn and weekends at shows was that I had gay friends and mentors before I knew what sexuality or homosexuality even were...and so I've never cared, except on occasion to be furious and helpless when I see good friends being by a world that can be mercilessly cruel.

--Jess

[Kellybird]

Ben & Me~~I know exactly what you mean about adolescent guys thinking that the greatest insult of all involves calling someone gay. I've never gotten it--my friends and I are constantly reminding people (even those who don't want to hear it!) about how remarkably ridiculus it is to use the term like that--we've started more than our fair share of gender wars /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Personally, the thought that different sexualities were "weird" never crossed my mind--even when I was a small child living in Oakland, CA, when my parents would talk about one my mom's good friends--a gay man--and his partner, I never even wondered why he didn't have a wife/girlfriend, etc. Just never phased me. Now that I'm living in a much more conservative, close-minded, "good ole' boy" type area, I really am noticing people's reactions to the idea of different sexualities. Even some of my friends who I would see as very liberal are completely opposed to the idea! (Although, I shouldn't be shocked to find out that people are less open-minded than me, I must be the ultimate California girl with a politically-correct mind, I censor almost everything I say, trying not to offend anyone. I'm such a tree-hugging, pro-choice, whale-saving, recycling nut. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

The other reason I responded to this thread again was that I wanted to say how refreshing it is to not see a bunch of horse people as conservative, stuck-up, close-minded bigots; I'm almost amazed by how much everyone here has shown their tolerance on the subject. No one "sounds" like they are just repeating a line either, everyone seems to be telling their honest opinions on it, not just avoiding a flame. I was literally smiling reading these posts, I was so glad to not have to suffer through more people trying to convert others or change minds, it's all very open and accepting.

OK, I'm done for now, I'm sur eI'll be back later with more.

Ciao~~
Kelly

[Hephaistion]

I like your forthright questions Retrophish and I will answer as best I can from my experience, although others will no doubt have different views.

I was around 14 when I realized that I was more interested in my male classmates than the girls. I had lots of crushes etc. on them but didn't really know what to do. Some of my friends say they always new they were different, but that is now how I felt - I have always just been me. But it was definitely NOT a choice, nor was it my family environment that influenced it.

Is it genetic? I don't know. I would imagine it had something to do with it. I have two straight brothers and one straight sister - how come I'm gay and they're not? We weren't raised any differently.

As for coming out - that took me until university when I realized I was "not alone" and started reading some great books with gay characters that just blew me away. It was such a relief. Mind you, I was born in 1973, so by the time I hit 20 in the 90's attitudes towards this sort of thing had changed considerably from what it would have been for someone 10 years older. Compared to many, I don't think I have had a rough time.

My friends' reactions? I was more interested in horses in high school so only really have one girlfriend that I keep in touch with and she said she knew all along anyways. I am still working on my family - didn't tell them until just a few years ago. and the reaction has been mixed. I haven't been condemned or anything like many of my friends who have basically been disowned, but they are trying and I just make sure I don't shove my preference down their throats. They are good people.

Don't know what else to say. Hope I have answered some of what you were wondering about, at least as it pertained to me.

And no, your ignorance is not the least bit offensive. It is very encouraging in fact /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Retrophish]

I think I can understand what you mean about just feeling like you. I use to think when I could get the chance to travel, it would be so amazing and the rest of the world was going to be this great and different wonderland. When the chances finally came, the places were different, but I was still me. I didnt undergo any vast metamorphisis - I was still looking out of the same two eyes, just at different things. Not to say the places werent great, just that I expected them to effect me inside and I dont think that happens. You are who you are.

I think this understanding is why I am very tolerant of the differences in people. Not to say that I like everyone - there are plenty of people that I dont like, but they earn it singularly and not based on an inherent characteristic.

I see friends with kids and I wonder if it would make a difference if they turn out different then they expect. I couldnt imagine loving my neices and nephew any less - no matter what.

Another question: Doesnt it seem like there are some people that choose their sexual orientation? Whether they be gay, but choose to behave hetero and vice versa? I have more trouble coming to terms with this, but Im not sure why. I, speaking for myself, dont think that I could choose to be different then I am and since I cant understand - it must be why it bothers me.

But, Jair, I understand you perfectly and appreciate your candor. Glad you answered because I have always thought you sound like a great guy based on other posts. Plus, love your sense of humor.

[Snowbird]

I think we should also have in the mix that homosexuality is not the same as a mistaken gender indentity. If you look around the most beautiful fit of either sex may prefer someone equally beautiful and fit. That is the males prefer males that are very masculine. I think the concept of those who have a feminine aspect are just a part of the picture. The same seems to me to be true for those who are female.Then there are those who have a gender problem of indentifying themselves. Males who would have a feminine identity, females with a male identity and then there are all the variations of birth flaws where boys are really girls and vice versa along with some who are both.

Obviously, the pattern of nature is not perfectly limited. We are intellectually limited to believe that there is only one "normal" condition and only one acceptable life style, that does not make it so. I think in history many ancient civilizations were more tolerant and respectful of each other.

We need to all consider that we are limited by our own experiences, preferences and environment to believe that what is right "is right".

[Hephaistion]

Thank you Retrophish /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Have you ever seen "Sex in the City" with Sarah Jessica Parker? They did an great episode awhile ago about "gay-straight" men and "straight-gay" men and how they can't figure it out anymore. It was a hoot!

There was some truth to it though. Sometimes I can't even tell! I need a new gaydar...maybe a Sony this time LOL!

But yes, sometimes there are gay men who live out straight lives. Perhaps because they feel it is "easier" to act/be the way society expects them to be, or perhaps because their internal struggle is so great that they are afraid of the consequences. These men must live in torment. Some, I think are just so confused they don't know what to do so they get married just because they think they should. Others marry to keep up a front - a friend of mine is a partner to a very very wealthy man from a prominant business family who also has a wife and daughter (but lives with my friend). When he goes to a business function, he takes his wife; when he goes on holiday, he takes his partner. Sounds weird, but the four of them (Husband, Wife, Partner and Daughter) have worked it out. Although I think the wife gets the short straw - but kudos to her for sticking it out.

Strangest of all though IMO, are the straight guys who like people to think they're gay. I can't help thinking they are doing it just to get the girl's confidence before "moving in" so to speak. Don't know much about those kind. I have heard the odd comment from lesbians that some women have chosen to have relationships with other women because of terrible experiences with men (abuse, rape etc.) That I can understand.

Hope I'm not being to forthcoming for some. I tend to ramble...

I liked your comments, by the way Snowbird.

[heelsdown]

I posted on the original thread but thought you might be interested in this. I have some friends, man and a woman, living together for the past year. Very much ga ga over each other. She is decidedly heterosexual. She has an identical twin who has is an avowed lesbian and has been living with her partner for the past 13 years.

If you are born this way or that, how do you explain it?

[Snowbird]

First there is nothing that says it is wrong to believe in a literal translation of the Bible. It only becomes wrong when the people who believe that try to impose their ideas on other people.

Just judge from the many ways the same words have been interpreted by so many other people, all well intentioned. Look at the wars that have been fought in the name of the Bible, and the people killed in the name of the Bible.That's what happens when you feel compelled to have everyone believe as you believe. Not because of what it you believe.

Even identical twins can be different. Isn't it true there is frequently a bold one and a shy one, a leader and a follower and lots of other variations. It simply makes sense that what see in other creatures is likely to be a pattern for us too.It isn't a unique situation for the humans alone, but I'll bet it goes all the way back to the Cro-Magnum.

[HAC]

I am still trying to figure out where in the Bible that God says that Homosexuality is a sin. It is mentioned in Leviticus, but one could argue that Leviticus technically can be interpreted as laws(ie man made). The story of Sodom and Gomorrah represents punishment for lacking respect for hospitality and the protection offered by the host. In fact there was a story, I believe the Book of Ruth that has a few refererences regarding a lesbian relationship between the Mother in Law and the daughter in law.

[Kryswyn]

Like many here, I have had many gay friends due to my association from an early age w/ horses. Later I added musical, dance and theater friends.

Oddly enough, the one who sticks out in my mind was the man who acted like a closet gay (SO's were never given a sex, always referred to as "they", hung out at a gay bar (but NEVER admitted going there) and was way too concerned w/ his build and his gym time was sacred. Having left my closest gay friend in NY, I was looking to fill this void. So hoping to open up dialog, and because I'd been taught to be direct, I asked *Brent* if he was gay. His response, "It would be so much easier if I were." Over the next few years, I learned that it probably would've been. I believe he was hetrosexual, but absolutely unable to have a relationship with a woman for many reasons. He also was a very devout Episcopalian which may have contributed to his inability to date men. He was clearly attractive to gay men, but inside himself, couldn't go there. Being a former child theater actor, a musician, built like an ad for "Muscle Beach" people EXPECTED him to be gay. I know one housemate who was terribly in love with him but had another partner because Brent would not go to bed with him.

My point for what it's worth: You can't sleep with apples if you're hardwired to be attracted to oranges, no matter how much you look like an apple.

[Bertie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
First there is nothing that says it is wrong to believe in a literal translation of the Bible. It only becomes wrong when the people who believe that try to impose their ideas on other people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So true, Snowbird. Couldn't agree with you more!

[Pat]

Maybe I'm just in a BAD mood (ask WishMeLuck) but why is this subject now OK with a name change?

Sorry, just a little touchy right now.....

EEEK, anyway, here's another thought as to general acceptance of homosexuality. A girl who recently worked with me asked me once how I felt the general reaction of our customers would be if they realized she was a lesbian. I told her that I thought 99% of the adults and kids would be cool about it since no-one batted a eyelash when they met my BF. (14 years my elder and black, I'm white) She thought that an interacial couple was a poor barometer as nobody would want to be labeled a racist. I still think I was right about OUR situation, but who else thinks Americans can better handle an interracial couple over a homosexual one? Does it mean it's simply a matter of time?

[Bertie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat:
who else thinks Americans can better handle an interracial couple over a homosexual one? Does it mean it's simply a matter of time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's too bad that that's a valid question. It's unfortunate that these are concerns in this society. Are other societies as judgmental about personal relationships and lifestyles?

[Kryswyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat:
who else thinks Americans can better handle an interracial couple over a homosexual one? Does it mean it's simply a matter of time?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. When I was little (60's) black/white dating NOT an option; it was a daring movie of the week in the early 70's, it was something adults clammed up about when little ones walked in. Trust me, they were NOT talking positively about this. Now, NBD. It takes time, lots of it, to overcome stereotype and bigotry.

Again, in the 60's men weren't 'gay' they were 'queer' and 'queer'= flamboyant queen and all lesbians were butch or bull dykes and we all knew what they looked like. The idea of a "macho" gay was unknown by many until Patricia Nell Warren's wonderful book "The Front Runner" (Jair- you HAVE read this right?) published in 1974/5? This is a movie Hollywood STILL hasn't made although it's been greenlighted at least 2x that I know of. This being an Olympic year, it should've been pushed through production, but again, the relationship between a track coach & his Olympic caliber runner is deemed too sensational for release. So IMHO you and your BF are definitely reaping the harvest that was watered by millions of tears. Acceptance for gays and lesbians comes slowly but it WILL come.

Personal note to anyone who hasn't told their family. My cousin came out at Thanksgiving in a long distance call to the family get-together (Gloria was out of town). She THOUGHT she was talking only to her cousin, but unknown to her mom & aunt had picked up the extentions. Needless to say, it was QUITE the topic of conversation afterwards, and having all those different points of view being expressed all at once allowed everyone to vent, be supported, be educated, and while I recall the turkey hitting the table an hour or so late, we left that night with the majority of bigotry behind us and resigned acceptance reigned.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pat:
Maybe I'm just in a BAD mood (ask WishMeLuck) but why is this subject now OK with a name change?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, the original thread was not deleted by either me or Weatherford... whoever started it must have deleted their first post. If the first post in a thread is deleted, the whole thread goes. (Don't ask me why... the UBB gods seemed to think this was a good idea.)

I didn't even see the original thread. I came home from the barn to several email messages asking me to delete/edit it, but by the time I looked, it was gone.

At any rate... I don't know what the original thread was discussing, but I have to say that this is one of the most interesting and thought-provoking threads I've ever seen on this board, and I'm very happy to see it being dealt with in such a respectful and logical manner. Please carry on! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[PepTalk]

I just have to say, I am SO proud of you guys! To take on a topic such as this one is a VERY hard thing to do and you guys took it head on, without any name-calling, fist-fighting, etc. I am glad that you guys have the openness and willingness to discuss this topic with all the points of view being presented. Erin, give all these people a blue ribbion! (Just Kidding!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just for your information, I know a LOT of gay people that don't know the front end of a horse from the back, but they are some of the nicest people, I've ever met. What they do in their private life is and never will be my business. I am glad, that for the most part, the horse world has been an accepting place for these people I call "friends". They have discoved the one true love of my life and that is: the horse. Nothing else sould matter.
These are just my thoughts and if I offended you, I am sorry. All I wanted to do was prise you on a job well done. That's all.
OK, I'll stop rambling now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Duffy]

Not that anyone should care about my opinion, but I have to say that I've been so impressed with the sensitivity, candor and openness shown by the posters on this thread. That this topic can be discussed like this is a very good message, I think. One of the reasons why my husband did not wish my son involved with riding (or figure skating, or gymnastics) was because of it's reputation for having a preponderance of gay involvement. What I have tried to communicate to him over the years, is that a specific environment was not going to "make" our son gay. However, I would like him to be in an environment (whatever that may be) that he will be comfortable being whatever he is! That being said, I have to say that my husband has allowed our son to be involved in any sport/activity he wishes. I'm not sure if I'm making any sense here. I apologize if I'm not communicating this thought very well. . .

[This message has been edited by Duffy (edited 07-14-2000).]

[pwynnnorman]

(Glad you got it, Jair.)

[N&B&T]

Erin and Peptalk and Duffy are right...sure wish we could/could have discuss/ed all topics this way!!

[Hephaistion]

You're the best Pwynn!

As for you Kryswyn - the "Front Runner" is one of my all time favourite books. Its actually the first book I ever read that had gay characters in it and OMG did it hit home! It made me cry at the end. Its the only book that's done that to me. (Phar Lap is probably the only movie that made me cry: how can you forget the end "Oh Bobby, get up Bobby! Please get up!" as poor Phar Lap falls over...)

I had always hoped they'd make a movie out of it - never knew it had been considered! Tell me more.

I can't say enough about how much I have enjoyed the thoughts from everyone on this post - I was actualy eager to come into work this morning to see how the thread had developed overnight! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Duffy, I understand where your husband is coming from - funnily enough some of my gay friends think my horsey stuff is sissy! Grrrrrr I'd like them to try it once and see how THEIR legs feel after!

Pacificsolo - no one here would think of you as a "close-mouthed biggot". Your religious views were very well presented and I found them thought provoking.

[Snowbird]

If we could all understand that there are different opinions by other people on every topic in the world that would be a start.

If we could all accept that the different opinion doesn't indicate that the person is demented, evil or criminal that would be a start.

If we could isolate the point of view and the issues from the people who propose them that would be a start.

If God had intended that we all be clones of each other he wouldn't have created so many different people.

It is really our attempt to homogenize the world that causes the violence and disputes.I find it so interesting that while we expect all people to be alike, think alike and act alike we are so devoted to saving even the remotest little variant in all other species.

I'll bet that the same people who want to protect some little wood turtle from extinction cannot comprehend the need for the same difference between people and want to "modify" that behavior. Are "tree huggers" equally sensitive to the biological differences between people? Do they have a priority list of approval for which differences are most acceptable?

[Retrophish]

I think religion scares me even more then the intolerant ways that people label and treat each other.

I by no means am very knowledgable about the topic of discussion and I think I am only a little more versed in religion. I cant help thinking that it has been in the name of religion that many people are hurt for thousands of different reasons. With that said, it would be unwise for me to attempt to communicate the many confusing contradictions of religion. I respect and envy anyone that is able to come to peace by accepting which ever religious credo and I suppose that part of my confusion comes from believing many parts of a lot of different and even conflicting ones. The way I see it, there is too much human interpretation involved in religion - why would a tolerant god make make loving another person conditional? There are huge holes in these thoughts so dont crucify me (little play on word there) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Getting back to the topic on hand. Cant explain the twin thing except to say that there are many different genes that are expressed at different leves for different characteristics and of course there is the environment.

Do you think that part of societies lack of acceptance comes from the very basic (learned) instinct to procreate and continue the species? Humans have moved beyond hunting, gathering and breeding but some of our thought patterns are stuck. Logically, with our degree of development, it isnt necessary for all people to replace themselves with another. Our survival rate is better then the cave man times. I think if you look at patterns of nature (argument everyone uses to justify something as being "right") there are plenty of species where different roles are carried out by different members and not everyone produces offspring. Am I making sense? Trying to explain why this argument for being against homosexuality is flawed.

If we were to extend this type argument to my need to care for horses (rather then a food producing item) - it would stand that it is a pretty insignificant role, yet it is the very core of my existance. I think that root of our existance and the reason we are here is to LOVE - and it is achieved in many ways.

Whew, enough of that. Sorry for getting carried away. felt like I was on to something but Im not quite there yet. need some more thought (and tequila for added stimulation!)

[Inverness]

I'm very interested in hearing more about the religious taboos to homosexuality. PacificSolo and Snowbird - you've both piqued my interest. I've heard others state that homosexuality is condemned in the Bible, but I've never been satisfied with the interpretive arguments purporting to substantiate this assertion.

I also should note that I've never been a proponent of literal translation in any vein, whether it concerns religious literature or the U.S. Constitution. I'm also not a religious person (raised Catholic, but balancing on the abyss of atheism) but I'm fascinated by religious history.

On another front, I've also read that there are documented instances of homosexual behavior in various animal species. I cannot vouch for the accuracy of this theory/fact(?), but I know I have heard it frequently espoused. In addition, there seems to be some fairly strong evidence coming to light that homosexuality (and likewise, heterosexuality)is genetically determined.

It would appear, therefore, that the only thing "unnatural" about homosexuality is society's condemnation of it. It is an exercize in futility to oppose things that just are.

[Retrophish]

Inverness,

You must be a special kind of lawyer (is that right, you're a lawyer?) to be able to say everything I was TRYING to express but in about half the words. Isnt it usually the other way around?

I am positive that we have had mares that were homosexual and I have heard about other examples from nature. Im going to try to find some and satisfy my curiosity.

[Inverness]

Difficult as it can be to admit, yes, I'm a lawyer, Retrophish. Worse than that, I'm a Washington, D.C. lawyer!!! And if you need an example of "lawspeak" just reread that second sentence in my post --eeegaads! I wrote that multisyllabic goo?! That's what I get for writing this stuff off the top of my head instead of taking the time to compose it properly.

I'll be curious to see what you turn up in your research. Keep us posted. This is a fascinating discussion.

BTW, I'm going to share a secret; its us lawyers that make up all the lawyer jokes.

[This message has been edited by Inverness (edited 07-14-2000).]

[Good to go]

Thank you Goodmudder...all I was stating was that names should not be named!!!! I have been involved in the horse world for over 25 years and I have NO problem with anyone's sexuality.....just have a little common courtesy for people (ex:Scott Stewart)...geez!!!!!!!! <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Goodmudder:
AnnFs: If you read my post on the former thread, I never suggested that the topic should not be discussed by whomever cares to discuss it - but I believe that people should be able to make their own choices as to their own names being used - a common courtesy, I would have thought. No, I'm not prejudiced - just trying to be thoughtful of individuals.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Hephaistion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inverness:
It would appear, therefore, that the only thing "unnatural" about homosexuality is society's condemnation of it. It is an exercize in futility to oppose things that just are.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said Inverness. How true. Sad, but true. "Man fears that which he doesn't understand". As is the case in so many other issues. I can't help thinking that is the root of racism too - the first white people to see a darker skinned person were scared as they had never before seen someone like that and considering the old tradition that white and black equals good and evil, I often wondered if those "first contact" people automatically assumed black skin = evil. I could be way off base here. But I have often pondered that. Lord help us if an alien ever did arrive...

Back to religion and homosexuality. I find this intriguing, not being religious myself. I too have heard many times that I am off to hell because I "lie with man instead of woman", but have never been shown any religious text to support this. I know the story of Sodom and Gomorrah (I've been labelled something along those lines before by a religious fanatic type once but won't repeat the words here) but am curious about where else this is mentioned in religious texts? In the past there have been many religious groups opposing the gay lifestyle to the point of advocating "gay bashings" that I want to know where they are coming from with all this hatred.

It is horrible to think that there are still some countries in this world that throw people in prison (or worse) for being gay. Or others being murdered because of what God they beleive in.

Maybe those aliens will take me with them...

[Clarke County]

But Good to Go, that would mean you're only 27 years old right?....NOT!

[Pepper]

Retrophish, I too appreciate your direct questions in your earlier post.

As Jair noted at the end of one of his posts, some folks have indeed "chosen" to be gay. Of course, plenty of nuances permeate that statement, because "being gay" can mean the sexual acts and/or the social identity and/or the political stance, etc. The choice may come from disillusionment with the opposite sex, as Jair described, or from political orientation (e.g., women should not depend on
men in any aspect of their lives), or from the observation that being gay is kind of cool.

Now, I'm sure not trying to speak for the gay community any more than Jair was, but to me, distinguishing between whether homosexuality is "chosen" or "genetically determined" or, for that matter, environmentally determined (nomination vs. nature vs. nurture) can undermine tolerance. It simply should not matter why a person is gay. Homosexuality is fine, period.

While I understand and to some degree share the scientific interest in such a question, many folks seem to have decided that if we can prove homosexuality is as outside one's control as, say, left-handedness, then homosexuality should be accepted as a valid orientation. Shouldn't it be accepted regardless?

[This message has been edited by Pepper (edited 07-14-2000).]

[Hephaistion]

I agree Pepper. I am actually a bit wary of the genetics route for explaining why someone is gay beacuse I fear that it may end up being abused i.e. woman told to terminate pregnancy because genetic tests shows child will be gay. I'm not being paranoid, its just that there are still many people out there who think homosexuality is so wrong that they feel it must be stopped at all costs.

Although I agree (and wish) that being gay should be accepted as is, unfortunately many people need that scientific validation to accept something they consider "out of the ordinary". For some perhaps, if they realize that one is born gay through genetics than maybe they will be just a little more tolerant, and through tolerance comes understanding. It will take time.

My older gay friends like to remind me that things are much easier for me now then they were for them. Sometimes it is important to take a look back to see how far we've come in order to enjoy dreaming of what is still to be.

[ccoronios]

It wonders me how people can accept a literal interpretation of the Bible. No flames, please - and I realize how little religion and logic have in common, but...given that, please follow my line of reasoning here...

"Stories" of the Bible come anywhere from close to 2000 years ago to thousands of years before that. ("Stories" to indicate lack of better word, and NOT implying fiction) Many originated and were handed down for generations as word-of-mouth - legends, tales of heroism, much the same as other mythology - by people who could not read and write (most Old Testament pre-dates written word.) So part of the Bible: a. isn't Christian and b. isn't clear recollection.

Let's say that MML&J were completely objective and had digital memories - that everything in those 4 Gospels was written down exactly as it happened/was said. In what language? (can we agree that it wasn't 20th c. American/English?) Who translated it? How many times has it been translated between then and now? And who chose which word to use when there wasn't an exact translation?

I was raised Episcopalian, attended a variety of churches (Presbyterian, Lutheran, Catholic); I believe in God (ONE GOD, that cares equally for all S/He created) and I don't understand those who believe that if my beliefs are different from their own, mine are wrong. To quote my Christmas cards of the past few years (I really like them, so I bought all I could find!) "God created so many different kinds of people....why would he allow only one way to worship Him?"

Wow - is this far off the topic of h/j or what!!!?!!?

[Retrophish]

I agree with what you are saying, Pepper, but if having some sort of explanation helps even one more person learn tolerance, then I think it is ok. Knowing the why helps for some. Like, I think it was Jair said, that which we dont know scares us.

I remember in college (forget the class) we were learning how the peace corps or some such org. was in an over populated area of India trying to make the women take birth control pills. They tried all sorts of different methods from bribery to trickery. Finally, they instituted an education program where they showed the families that it was no longer necessary to have 10 kids to ensure the survival of at least two. They taught them how medicine and nutrition has improved the chances of survival and actually overpopulating themselves was more harmful then helpful. The result - voluntary acceptance of controlled births and reduced populations.

If we extend your argument that people just are, we could say that mean people just are too. Some things - I agree just are and some are a result of something else, but most are probably a combination of both.

[Retrophish]

Jair,
I think the whole idea of acting too god like is scary on every front. And selective abortions are something like that. (and another touchy - not very equestrian like topic) I suppose not just selective ones either.

What about these women that abort because the child will have down syndrome? God forbid we ever get to the point where we terminate pregnancies that are not the right sex, hair color, IQ or whatever else we will someday be able to determine by genotype.

The whole idea of cloning/genetic engineering is completely scary and surely needs some sort of regulation. Forget aliens. Do you ever think there might be a day where we are having this same sort of discussion but with the topic being whether we will ever treat clones equally and kindly and with out prejudice?? Never mind, I'd rather stick with alien invasions.......

[Hephaistion]

Interesting topic about the bible - when did the spoken word become the written? I do know that when King James I of Enlgand (6th of Scotland)suceeded Queen Elizabeth I in 1603, the first thing he did was have the bible completely re-written! That's why its referred to as the King James version. How many monarchs/rulers before him had it revamped just to suit their viewpoints? I imagine we are a long way away from the original "stories".

Back to the issue: gay animals? (as oppsed to garanimals? hee hee hee. Had to add that now that I know what they are.) I have heard that more and more these days about homosexuality appearing in nature: I think that it has been documented in chimps or baboons, can't remember which. and I remember David Attenborough talking about one species of birds that exhibited gay behaviour (don't you love his shows? I think nature shows are my favourite) Don't remember which ones though. I even remember reading something about how Darwin observed gay behaviour in animals during his voyages but refused to document it for fear of reprisals.

[Hephaistion]

I agree totally Retrophish! Cloning is scary stuff. There are a couple of good Star Trek's that deal with this issue well. (sorry, back to the alien theme...)

signed Jair1, Jair2 or Jair3....

[Retrophish]

OK boys and girls,

I have been using my billable hours wisely. Check this out. I just skimmed quickly, (that's redundant isnt it, isnt it?) but it seems to be on the up and up.
http://www.salon.com/it/feature/1999/03/cov_15featurea.html

Here is a great quote from the article that supports sexual diversity in (nearly every type of) animals.
But we can bring the lions to testify that there's nothing unnatural about human sex lives, that bisexuality and homosexuality are not among those twisted human inventions, like income tax, or graduate school, or step aerobics, that have no close analog in the wild.

[This message has been edited by Retrophish (edited 07-14-2000).]

[jch]

This is wonderful to see intelligent, calm discussion like this! Fantastic! I admire the bravery of the people who have expressed different ideas. Pacificsolo, first of all, I am not trying to condemn or challenge you. I am just thinking "out loud". Maybe the idea that all sin is equal in God's eyes, is the fact that any intimate contact between homosexuals would have to be outside the union of marriage - of course, now maybe Vermont is changing that. At any rate, I think that you are accepting the person and that is the most important thing anyway. I should have no way of knowing what a person does in private and naturally, I would have no reason to judge another since the Bible says "...judge not lest you be judged, for whatever measure you hold to others will be held to you" Again, how great to be able to express diverse views in such a civilized manner!!!

[This message has been edited by jch (edited 07-14-2000).]

[Anne FS]

It's no big secret or mystery that there are animals who exhibit 'gay' behavior. There always have been. The mistake is when people use that fact to say that makes gay 'normal' or to justify whether that makes the behavior OK (even animals do it)or not OK (animals do it). What leads to the prejudice is that, if 10% of the population (human and animal) is gay, that means that 90%, the VAST majority is not gay. When you have that big a difference in what a population sees as normal vs. not normal you can see how the minority can be persecuted(normal as in the great majority do it, and it can't be denied that the great majority of people & animals is heterosexual). The point is that our society needs to accept minorities and allow them to live their lives without harassing them - that's the point.

The Kinsey sex study was the one that first stated the 10% of the population is homosexual. Later on Kinsey published that 5% was the correct figure - mistakes were made in the data, but people still quote the 10% figure. So here you have the tremendous majority being hetereosexual. A mirror of society is how that tremendous majority treats its minorities. It doesn't matter if I'm gay or straight; what is of tremendous importance is how we treat one another.

Look at the foxhunting situation in England. As someone pointed out, if mounted foxhunters were a tribe in a South American jungle, rock stars would be holding fund-raisers to support their native ways. Instead, we are told that the urban/suburban majority doesn't like mounted foxhunting, therefore it must be banned, and foxes are to be exterminated by rifle and traps instead. The urban dwellers have no tolerance of the rural dwellers. Lack of tolerance and acceptance stinks, no matter where you find it.

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 07-14-2000).]

[Hephaistion]

Way to go Retrophish! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

What a great article. It made me laugh out loud (good thing I have my own office!) I am going to have see if I can find a copy of that book - would love to read it.

I think this is a great quote:

"Successful life forms are characterized by diversity, so changing environments don't wipe them out. That diversity often extends to sexuality. Thus bisexuality and homosexuality are characteristics not of twisted nature, but of generous nature" (SALON | March 15, 1999 )

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:

I think this is a great quote:

"Successful life forms are characterized by diversity, so changing environments don't wipe them out. That diversity often extends to sexuality. Thus bisexuality and homosexuality are characteristics not of twisted nature, but of generous nature" (SALON | March 15, 1999 )
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh, that quote doesn't make sense and defeats the pro-gay argument. The biological definition of a successful organism is one that survives long enough to reproduce. The diversity is supposed to lead towards obtaining that goal, which homosexuality does not. If a population diversifies into homosexuality, it will indeed be wiped out and only its members who practice heterosexuality will pass on their genes instead. Nice try, whoever wrote that, but it doesn't make sense. There must be a better quote than this.

[Retrophish]

Correct me if Im wrong, but being gay doesnt mean that a person is not able to reproduce. They may not WANT to, but certainly they are capable of contributing their half. So, when our population starts to dwindle, we will have to call all homosexuals to come forth and do their part. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I like the quote and thought it quite clever.

[Hephaistion]

Hmmm... I think you missed someting Anne. The quote made perfect sense to me, and did not, IMO, defeat the pro-gay arguement at all.

The way I read it was that in order to be successful, a population must be diverse. A diversity which includes homosexuality as part of the successful equation. Diversity means that there are many varied parts to a whole. It does not suggest that one has to go one way or another. So, no, society will never "diversify into homosexuality" as you suggested. That would be dumb.

and yes, I am more than capable of fathering children. But just because I'm am not interested, does not make my contribtuion to our society any less.

Hey Retrophish - should the world need to call on me - hope they pair me with you!

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-14-2000).]

[Snowbird]

If you accept the existence of another attitude that doesn't make you pro-gay, and if you have the opposite opinion that doesn't make you anti-gay.

What many have forgotten is that the concept of protecting the minority opinion is just for this kind of thing. In a democracy you cannot comdemn something just because there are more who agree with you than those who disagree. Actually, in a debate those who want to take the Bible too literally could get into some very tight places. There is an awful lot of adultery, incest and murder in that most honorable book.

No I don't think there is some inborn memory from our genetic inheritance that makes us attack those with a different sexual identity. I think it is simply the myopic view of the world from only their own perspective.They are very convinced that their analysis and morality are the only correct one, therefore they feel compelled to defend it and seek to punish everyone that doesn't meet the standard.

Didn't any of you ever watch "Outer Limits"? They often put it very clearly.If the majority (ref: aryan nation) of the people are white with blue eyes and blonde hair then anyone who is not like them is an outsider and as such suspect. I suspect this is the base instict at work but that is totally learned and not genetic. Except that it is natural for like creatures to want to be with other like creatures.

If God had wanted us to be homogenous then like a flock of birds we would all have identical markings. What a masterpiece we all are, imagine the newly mapped Genome indicates that we are all 99% the same, so all the differences about which we become so emotional come from only 1% of the genetic codes.

[Hephaistion]

Snowbird - I accept that there are differnt opinions on this (or any issue) and that having thoughts on one particulary viewpoint doesn't necessarily indicate that you represent that side of the arguement. If it sounded like I was attacking Anne, I wasn't - I neither think Anne is pro-gay or anti-gay. Anne is Anne and I am enjoying her thoughts. As I am yours.

You know, I am beginning to feel like the "gay oracle" because I seem to be the only gay man (well, that I know of anyways) posting on this thread. Someone else out there must have a gay-oriented opinion. (Where did you go Pepper?) I am just one person, and I wouldn't want someone genuinely curious about this topic to think that my gay influenced views are the only ones.

A final thought for the day: I have to say that the views expressed by those posting on this thread rival any conversation I have had with any of my gay friends. This is the most philosophical discussion I have ever had about this subject! I especially liked hearing from the younger kids.

Jair /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Bertie]

This is really an interesting discussion.

Pacificsolo, it's clear from your messages that you're compassionate and kind. And you're certainly entitled to a literal interpretation of the Bible as it applies to your life. My interpretation is that Christ taught love and kindness. I don't believe he encouraged anyone to label another as a sinner. By example, he chose those who society looked down upon as his closest companions.

[Bertie]

Duffy, your husband should talk to my husband. My husband's been riding hunters & jumpers for 30+ years and hasn't turned gay yet. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'm not so sure there are more gay people involved with horses than in society in general. I just think that maybe, because of the 24/7 aspect of horse shows, we know more about everyone's lives than people know in other businesses. And because homosexuality is generally accepted in the horse community, it's not hidden. This is a good thing /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My brother was gay, and no one in his business world would have known. He tried to be straight; even married a wonderful woman. But he finally came out when he knew there was no changing. Still, no one in his business community would have known.

Someone asked about families' reactions to finding out that a loved one is gay...I can say that my traditionally minded parents never understood, but always supported him. His ex-wife remained a part of our family and his best friend.

The question about genetics or environment is an important one because...My brother died from AIDS, and it was basically the end of my parents' lives as well. They blamed themselves for his homosexuality (environment), and they blamed his homosexuality for the illness that ended his life. (Before the illness, there was no guilt, no blame, just respect for a different lifestyle). In this way, it's an important question.

Sorry if this too serious, but thought I could add something.

[Kryswyn]

My congratulations to all for their continueing efforts in not letting this topic turn ugly. We are doing a great job!

PacificSolo, IMHO the reason you are still struggling with why "Homosexuality is a sin" is because you know gay people, and they are GOOD people. How can they be sinners? The answer is in your own words.

The word of God while God inspired, is still interpreted by men and I do mean MEN. When the Books of the Bible were put together, you can believe that nobody named Mary, Rachel, Elizabeth or Naomi was in the room. Most men are NOT homosexual and are afraid of being considered so. Can you just imagine this scene in the Middle Ages where the learned scholars (all men) are reading the apocrapha: There's a story by Andrew the Wanderer about Jesus spending a stormy night in Canaan with Simon in a cave "where they partook of each other's bodily warmth"?? They all looked around, the bishop says "That doesn't add anything to our lord's story,does it brothers, hmmm? NEXT!"
and out it went.

God gave you a brain of your own. Use it. Question authority even while you adhere to it. Work to change what doesn't make sense to your heart. If we all are created in 'God's Image' then God had a reason for every diverse people he created. We may not understand that reason, but it is none-the-less true for that lack of understanding.

[Snowbird]

Think of the analogy of the Garden of Eden, Eve gave Adam the apple from the tree of "Knowledge". Once consumed knowledge changed them. They were no longer innocent and they were capable of free choice.

So, perhaps are differences are that simple. There are those who seek absolute innocence. For them that would be a solution and it gives them strength and resolution. There are those of us restless souls that enjoy and seek knowledge. By the standards of those who seek innocence we are sinners.

Does the historical Jesus match the spiritual Jesus? Do we need to know if the Bible as a book of history is true? Should we keep the innocence of childhood where it doesn't matter?

The point is we all have our place on the patchwork quilt. I can respect Pacificsolo, I can like Pacificsolo and we might even be friends, but to do this must we agree. There are many great and brilliant people who question whether certain parts of the story should have been left out of the Bible.

I met a moslim several years ago in the middle east, and he solved two questions for me that I never understood. He from his background had no difficulties, life was very cut and dried and simple.

Why did they rob the tombs of the Pharoahs? No treasure has been found, no artifacts on the open market and it was a part of their religion. He answered very straight forwardedly what I can understand. They just wanted that Pharoah to go into the hereafter as poor as they were (part of their religion). They didn't steal from him they threw it in the Nile it was not for personal gain.

He saw the Nation of Islam as the result of a simple sibling rivalry. If Sarah could have been more compassionate and not sent Ishmael into the desert to get his mother and him away from Abraham there might not have been a Nation of Islam. They might all have been Jews. Jesus was born lived and died as a Jew, are you so sure that if he came back it would not be as a Jew?

The point is that the same history is viewed from different perspectives. There was an island off shore from the middle east somewhere I'm not sure where. It was excavated by archeologists. They discovered that at one time is this desert area it was a green lush island. They also discovered the per square foot there were an extrodinary number of graves. They also discovered that translated the island was called "Paradise".

Could it be that in those days to go to Paradise after you died was that simple? We don't know. But yes faith is simple and uncomplicated and innocent is that wrong? I don't think so.

There is strong evidence that we all started from Africa as black people. That some mutated and were pale and therefore ostrocized out of the community. Their light skin was better suited to the cold climates and they survived. Who is there can say which is better? There is room for all of us.

The questioners are the most persecuted because they have no faith. That doesn't make them evil.

Pacificsolo, I not only respect your beliefs but I envy you your conviction versus all my doubts and questions. Homosexuality is a form of life whether chosen or born. All life should be respected as a miracle. Jesus surrounded himself with the poor, hopeless, the sick and the dying, the tax collector (no more hated human at that time) and the prostitute.I think what the Bible taught me was that all life, even that of the sparrow matters to God. If it matters to God it should be respected. If a sparrow is important then surely every person whatever their flaws (in your opinion) is worth the same love. Since God is perfect and does not make mistakes then there must be a reason why the Homosexual is important for us. The Bi-Sexual is important for us and those born as both sexes are important for us.

Now, we can get into the whole issue is God a Male or a Female? Is God Black or White or Brown or Yellow or Red?

[N&B&T]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
I'll bet that the same people who want to protect some little wood turtle from extinction cannot comprehend the need for the same difference between people and want to "modify" that behavior. Are "tree huggers" equally sensitive to the biological differences between people? Do they have a priority list of approval for which differences are most acceptable?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Snowbird, don't bet the farm, you'd lose it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

aka "treehugger" by some definitions /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(agree with much of the rest of this post, therefore surprised at your intolerance of environmentalists...many of whom are quite open-minded /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )

[This message has been edited by Nancey Phillips Fisher (edited 07-15-2000).]

[N&B&T]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
All life should be respected as a miracle. Jesus surrounded himself with the poor, hopeless, the sick and the dying, the tax collector (no more hated human at that time) and the prostitute.I think what the Bible taught me was that all life, even that of the sparrow matters to God. If it matters to God it should be respected. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See? The diversity of life is a miracle to me...how people can calmly contemplate extinguishing it to preserve one or two (or three, if you include JRT's /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) species is a mystery to me.

Jair, Anne FS was simply being biologically accurate. Metaphors and analogies are great (love 'em myself) but better not to confuse them with facts! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Snowbird]

Pacificsolo,
Then you can understand that I wasn't trying to say that faith was childish. What I'm trying to say is that like great art. Those artists who are able to be simple and cut to the chase in what they represent are by far the better artists. Those of us who see too much who cannot prioritize are not as valuable communicators.

I envy the artists with that talent and those who have a convictions of a faith. I just don't think that there is only one expression that is valid. Perhaps, I should explain. My husband is a Jew, my mother is a born again Baptist, my father was an Orthodox Christian and I was raised as a Roman Catholic.

I learned that each philosophy while they had differences were much the same. All of these people dear to my heart were good people without malice. I just think that it is the need to feel that there is only "one" right path that I cannot accept. I have come to know personally very good people through the arts and through horses with all sorts of deeply believed convictions. Yes, I too was trained first in the arts and the painters were the ones who left us the images of faith. They are images bought and paid for by the church. Michaelangelo was a painter under contract to the Pope. That does not demean his art or the Pope but it was the accepted vision of the days in which they lived. That does not make it necessarily the only truth.

So I can admire those who see live with a simple vision, but with my background I see a more complicated vision. Is that a gift or a demon to be exorcised? I am not yet sure. I do know it doesn't make me a good painter.

I apologize Nancy, I didn't mean to imply that "tree huggers" were not tolerant. I just wonder at the ability of some people to be so concerned over the welfare of the physical environment and not take equally agressive action for the psychological welfare of people, as we have discussed the variations within man himself. This in the context of some who would not be unhappy if the homosexual was extinct because it is different that what is expected to occur. I think also there are so many shades of grayit is not just so simple and clear to me.

In reply to Pacificsolo I tried to make that point, not clearly or well it seems. But, I do believe that part of what Jesus taught us was we should have an inclusionary attitude towards even the most hateful people (in those days the tax collector). I wonder if the reason that a homosexual was not specified was because it was more acceptable in that time of history and therefore they were not left out of society or degraded.

[Hephaistion]

Thank you, PacificSolo for returning to the discussion. I understand where you are coming from better now. And to Snowbird as well. I was not brought up in a religious background, and very few of my friends are religious so I have little experience with it. Nor have I felt the need to seek it out. Maybe I will someday. You have all left me feeling very peaceful today after reading this discussion (at the library no less! I don't have a computer at home). But I don't feel that I can contribute much on the religous front. I look forward to reading what else comes up on monday. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks Nancy - friday was a long day for me at work, and I really shouldn't have even posted as I was in the wrong fram of mind... should have let sleeping dogs lie as they say. (or crabby geologists anyways...)

Good weekend everyone.

[Kryswyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
I realize that without the theological background, it is very hard for those of you who are interested to understand why certain books of the Bible were not included, which are collectively called the Apocrapha...and as far as the story that was mentioned, the translation is not that they had sex, but that they did what any people would do who needed to keep warm..and for those of you who wonder why Christ didn't miraculously create a warm home, perhaps you misunderstand his purpose on earth...he was and is the sacraficial lamb.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PacSolo: you missed my point, I think. The story I mentioned was hypothetical! I made it up to illustrate my belief that imperfect people of the male persuasion were the people picking what books/stories/legends went into the printed edition. If you tell me there really IS such a story in the Apocrapha, I'll be really impressed w/ myself.

As to the 'translation' you mention of the 2 men "sharing bodily warmth" that was another way of showing a shortfall (IMVHO) of the Bible for those wishing to use it as a guide or rule book for every stituation. It is VAGUE! Every parable is open to discussion, for every quote used to vilify anything, there is another that can be used in its defence.

[Snowbird]

At one time after long conversations with a Rabbi, very well read and schooled it was clear to me that Jesus was the first "Reform" rabbi.

We were going to join a Presbyterian Church and they thought that if Jesus came back and as the bearded cloaked rebel that he was he went into our Congress preaching honesty and equality he would today meet the same end.

I think what I'm trying to say is that we all have our view. Pacificsolo, no one is trying to undermine your faith or your conviction. It works for you, but not for everyone. It's the evangelism, the belief that there is only one way and only one "right" that causes the trouble, whether we are talking religion, politics, family or sexual identity. There will always be schisms and they will always have advocates, what we need is to make room for everyone at the table.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 07-16-2000).]

[Retrophish]

There was so much thought provoking dialog from over the weekend that I think I need to print this thread and spend a few days in the library and try to see if it is possible to sort all this out.

Not being extremely religious myself, I cant comment with any real expertise, only my own thoughts that I formed over the last 30 years or so. One thing that I think has been expressed is that maybe it isnt our place to understand everything, we should just except it. I too, agree with Snowbird, quoted below:

Pacificsolo, I not only respect your beliefs but I envy you for your conviction versus all my doubts and questions.

To imply that your faith might be childish seems complimentary to me. I cant think of a time when life was more satisfying, simple, and pure then childhood. If I could go back, I would in a second.

For me, it makes the most sense that there is one god made up of all the religions. I cant conceive that a God who made us what we are, in all our diversity and unlimited abilities would then limit us in such a way and give us minds to question, but never to find solutions. PacificsoloIm wondering how peaceful you feel with your friendships with those of other religions when you know they will not real eternal salvation at the gates of "heaven". Were I to believe that, I would be saddened - just as I am to see friends smoking or drugging. I KNOW it is harmful for them and I love them so much it hurts to see them damaging themselves. If I were to believe that only those of my faith were saved and bound for greater things, I would be tortured to see those I love committing eternal suicide. If you truly believe (which I am not questioning) how do you justify accepting this doom of others?

I have yet another question for anyone more familiar with history then myself. Is it not correct that gay and lesbian behavior was acceptable AD? The Greeks, the Romans, and the other Helenistic societies that predate the catholic religion. Im trying to bring up the teachings of my History of Ancient Civilizations class, but am not doing too well. However I do remember a great poet for which the term Lesbian comes from and the island of Lesbos. Wasnt that pre-Christ? Depending upon the answers, seems to me, any acceptance of sexual diversity was wiped away by the forthcoming religions that somehow deemed it improper. So, what (in the religious aspect of eternal life) happened to all the "unsaved" people that were around before Christ and/or conventional religions?

Jair
Hey Retrophish - should the world need to call on me - hope they pair me with you!

Are you flirting with me?? I truly did laugh out loud because I just know you are so cute that I would regret that you are gay as much as I regret when some great guy has a most beautiful girlfreind and one of those unbreakable relationships. (not to mention I am faithfully married) Plus, I'm a great breeder with spectacular kids (not all my doing of course) Were I to have your email, I would have saved these more lurid details for a personal conversation. One point that does come to mind in rereading what I have written is that there could/should/needs to be equal tolerance by the gay community for the straight. Often,comments like "too bad he's gay" or "what a waste that he's gay" is taken as some sort of insult and really should be taken as lightly as "too bad he has a girlfriend" or "such a waist he's dating HER". (and vice versa of course)

Bertie Thank you for sharing your story. I am sorry for the loss of your brother. It sounds as if he must have been a good communicator judging by the fact that his ex-wife understood him and remained a friend. She as well is a model.

AIDS is another whole topic, and a frightful one at that. There isn't a person out there who hasn't felt the effects of this terrible disease. In a positive light though, I am thankful that it is helping everyone understand that they shouldnt be flip with any relationship they get into, no matter what type. Communication and trust have always been essential in relationships, but in this day and age, it is even more evident why. And that is a good thing, just wish there could be a better way then AIDS for the example of why.

[Hephaistion]

Funny, I had to print this whole thread out too, just to sort out everything that has been covered.

Ah the Greeks! Was considering bringing that up myself. Thanks for reminding me Retrophish. From what I've read, homosexuality was quite prevalent during the Greek/Roman empires albeit not in the way we think of someone being "gay" today. If you've ever read Plato or some other scholars from that time, they discuss "Boy-love" quite a bit, and how it was right and proper for an older man (30ish) to form a relationship with a young man (15-17ish) to help them become men. Physical intimacy is hinted at on some occasions and I once read something that even explained it as necessary since women HAD to be virgins back then, the boys had no one to uhmm "experiment" with. (Trying to be delicate here.) So that sort of liason wasn't frowned on. That's just an "in the nutshell" version. Will have to go home and read some of my books.

There was also a lot of homoerotic imagery to come from the Hellenistic/Greek socities which has always lead me to believe that they were more accepting/tolerant of male/male relationships. But then my Y2K perceptions are no doubtedly a bit skewed compared to what a Ancient greek would have been thinking - to them, there might not have been anyting to have been tolerant about - maybe homosexuality "just was". Which is something we were discussing earlier.

Thank you Bertie, for sharing your story. I have definitely been down that road with friends - I felt for you when I read it. AIDS is such a horrible thing, dealing with it on any level is so often hard to express in words. (I think Robert Dover runs a charity for equestrians with AIDS - anyone know about that?

Retrophish - yes I was flirting with you! hee hee hee /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I don't think your husband would mind though...

Good point about tolerance in the gay community towards straights. There is definitely some antagonism there in some people. Telling a gay man he is acting like "a straight" is quite an insult to some. Or refering to straight couples (the majority of couples /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) as "breeders" can be meant either as derogatory or just matter of fact. Funny, I don't understand that - if it hadn't been for "breeders" I wouldn't be here!!!!

I've hear that "too bad he's gay" many times! and for what's its worth, I've thought the reverse about someone's adorable husband before: "too bad he's straight!" Depends on which side of the fence you're on I guess. Although I hear my girlfriends say that about couples they see. "how come SHE got such a hotty? I'm just as/more than pretty..."

(PS Retrophish - you can email me if you want or anyone else who wants to discuss something they'd rather not on the BB "carebearjair@hotmail.com".)

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-17-2000).]

[Inverness]

Pacificsolo and Jair -- I think they could use the two of you at Camp David just now!

[Snowbird]

That is my point, there are different perspectives during different times in history. I am a believer that if we don't know history we are doomed to making the same mistakes over and over.

Yes, during ancient times there was much more tolerance towards "differences" and homosexuality was an accepted part of every day life regular life. This could be why in the teachings of Jesus, a homosexual was not specifically included as was the prostitute and the tax collector as part of the mis-understood members of society.

If you read much in Sociology you would be surprised at what is not only acceptable but virtuous. It was the war between the Templar Knights as advocates of the western christianity, versus the Constantine and the eastern christianity which started so much of the schisms. Yes, even then there was a difference of opinion as to what the teachings were meant to convey. The King James version of the Bible survives to us as the victory of the Templar Knights after they burned the library in Constantinople.

There is another interesting book "The Holy Grail" which proposes a sequel to the story by the Templar Knights that you might find interesting.

[Hephaistion]

Hi Inverness. What is Camp David? I've heard the name before, and can't remember if its a real place or more of an allegory.

As for the "Holy Grail" Snowbird - is the book as interesting as Monty Python's version?! LOL! One of my favourite movies.

[Pepper]

Jair: Robert Dover and Mason Phelps indeed founded the "Equestrian AIDS Foundation." EAF has been around since 1996, perhaps earlier.

[Hephaistion]

Thanks Pepper. I was pretty sure I'd read about it. I keep hearing about a "Denim and Diamonds" party on the Florida circuit - is that an EAF fundraiser? I got the impression it was - I might be heading down to Florida to check out the shows next spring, and would interested in going.

[Pepper]

Yes, "Denim & Diamonds" is a lavish fundraiser primarily for the USET, and more recently for EAF, as well. Each year the event has a different theme, such as "New York, New York" one year, and an Olympic theme last year. Since Mason Phelps was in charge of the event for 4 years, it was natural for him to include EAF as a beneficiary. Beware the cost of the event ($250 per ticket last year). Of course EAF welcomes direct contributions.

[PepTalk]

Jair, I think Camp David is somewhere near Washington D.C. and the White House because they just had (or are having) talks on the Middle East Peace Agreement or something like that. I thinks it's a place where the President can go for meetings with different people from around the world to talk about different things.
Of course, I could be wrong. If it's something different, I am sorry. Hope this helps.

Oh, just in case you wanted to know, there was a really GOOD, but SHORT, article about the EAF in an American publication called Horse Illustrated. I, for the life of me, don't know where that article is, but when I find it, I'll post what's on it. Interesting article and it was well written too.

[Snowbird]

the book "Holy Grail" that I'm referring to is a documentary. Traces the paper trail all the way back and puts it in perspective re: Solomon's Gold and what happened to it? And the moving forces behind the Templar Knights of today.

Camp David is a retreat for all Presidents near Washington. It's supposed to be a place where they can go, and the media can't follow for some privacy.

[TabithaCat]

Pacificsolo, I most respectfully disagree with you that all sins are equal. Somehow, homosexuality, theft, and lying don't seem to me on a par with raping and murdering a 5 year old. I am a Christian also, and this is *not* intended as an attack by any means.
While there are a couple of references to homosexuality in the Bible, there is far more emphasis on other things. Even if it is a sin (after all, we're also commanded by Paul not to braid our hair, and parents are supposed to stone their children to death if they sass), it's between that individual and God, not my business. As far as Sodom and Gomorrah goes, I still don't see how Lot was a hero for offering his virgin daughters to be raped by the whole town, then later knocking them both up. *sigh* We are all imperfect people, in an imperfect world. I strive to do no harm to others, and to remain non-judgemental, and I value this in others. While I am not close to any gays, I have several wonderful friends who are bisexual. Rather than confused, they just seem to be extremely open-minded.

[Bertie]

Thanks for the kind words, Retrophish & Jair.

This is quite a thread.. Who would've expected to find discussions about the Bible on the Chronicle BB??? Those stories cited by TabithaCat, if taken literally, are terrifying!

To echo a previous message, I wonder how the stories would read if the translations had been done by feminine minds...

[Maria]

This has been a wonderful thread and I would like to Thank the participants for providing such a Great education.

I personally have never understood why people get themselves all worked up over things such as race or sexuality or religion. In a perfect world,(I wear rose colored glasses)it would make no difference. I try to live my life by not judging people. I base my likes and dislikes on the individual. And that's how I feel it should be. In my mind there are so many more important issues to be addressed. For example, How many children are physically, emotionally, sexually abused in a day? What is being done about the education system in our country? How can literacy be improved? These are just a few issues that come to my mind at the moment.

Anyway, again I would like to Thank the participants of this thread, this has truely been educational and enlightening.

[Anne FS]

Wow! 100 posts on this thread. I wondered if it would take off or just drop away, and I originally sat & thought a minute (how unlike me /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) before clicking 'send' then thought, oh go ahead, take a chance on stating your honest reaction...so glad it worked out the way it did.

[Retrophish]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne FS:
...so glad it worked out the way it did.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Me too!! I learned lots and lots and also, my belief in the inherent nature of people to be compassionate towards one another has been renewed.

I discovered that Im not the only one who is confused and not quite sure what is religiously correct, but yet there are those out there that give me faith by upholding their own.

And a whole lot of other thoughts....

And I cant leave out that I met Jair and I smile whenever I think about him.

Thanks to everyone.

I have more questions and when it seems that I have become settled with all the thoughts that this post has provoked, I hope to be able to coherently post them.

[Hephaistion]

ARRGGGGHHHHHH !! Just had this beautiful eloquent response all typed in and the darn computer crashed! Will try again later when it calms down!

Thanks from me too Anne! Man, I am impressed to see this thread still going! Hope it keeps on for at least a few more days.

[Hephaistion]

Let' try again...

What I was about to say before, was that I too was glad to see this thread continuing and was wondering if anyone else had noticed that the longer its been here, the more it gets noticed/read and that new people respond to it positively? I thnk thats great. I also hope that many of the lurkers out there have enjoyed it too. Good for Anne to have started it - I contemplated it but was a little to shy to start it myself.

Funny, never thought that I would become fond of "virtual people", but I have started to recognize the distince personalities behind the user names on this BB - makes it all the more fun! Wish I had been more creative with my username at the begining...

Thanks to those who answered my questions about Camp David and the EAF - talk about quick turn-around!

Interesting about me "fitting" in at Camp David - wonder if they'd let me in? LOL! Jair for Prime Minister ! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Glad I sound reasonably intelligent in my posts - sometimes I think I forget what I'm talking about by the time I get to the end of a long one though.

Retro! (or Phish?) look forward to your questions.

Thanks again to all the new posters. Good to hear from you.

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-19-2000).]

[Weatherford]

I, too, would like to thank all of you for the absolutely fascinating and refreshing thread! I am touched beyond words by your honest thoughts, compassion, observations, and faith.

This is why I continue to be part of these boards - even as other thread crash and burn, require divine intervention (Erin...), etc!


Thanks again.

W.

[Good to go]

CLOSE ENOUGH!!!!!!!!! <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sea Urchin:
But Good to Go, that would mean you're only 27 years old right?....NOT!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Portia]

I've been sorry not to have enough time to contribute the kind of well-stated response this topic and thread deserves. But I wanted to say this has been a great thread, and such a good dialog among intelligent people discussing important subjects rationally. You should all be proud of yourselves -- even if pride is a sin. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Twister]

"The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. It doesn't mean G-d doesn't love heterosexuals, it's just that they need more supervision."


I will web surf and try to find the source for the above quote, but it is a favorite of mine.

[Hephaistion]

LOVE the quote Twister. Look forward to hearing where you got it from.

[rescuemom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:
What is Camp David?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Camp David is the rustic Presidential retreat in the Maryland mountains. Jimmy Carter used it for the Camp David Accords, between Begin and Sadat, and Pres. Clinton has had the Palestinian and Israeli leaders there again over the past week in an attempt to win further cooperation between the two nations.

The tone of discussion in this thread is exceptional. It is wonderful to see so many people sharing thoughts on a topic, especially such a hot-button one, so civilly and with such consideration for each other's opinions. The ability to have this type of discourse on this board is one of the big reasons I keep hanging out here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Kryswyn]

Perhaps, since we have proved we can handle *hot* topics in a logical, non-attacking manner, now would be the time to settle the following issues:

Dehner vs. Vogel
Mane pulling vs. GroomaSolo Comb
1st & 3rd billets vs. 2nd & 3rd
Jack Russell vs. Corgi
Corgi (Pembroke) vs. Corgi (Cardigan)
Tailored Sportsman vs. Millers CR-7
Appaloosas vs. Anything
Chocolate vs. Vanilla
and finally, the longest lasting argument ever to appear in Ann Landers column,
Toilet Paper: Fall OVERthe roll vs. Hang UNDER the roll.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
No kidding, folks, this has been a great thread.

[rescuemom]

Maybe this should be a new thread, a pre-Friday humor piece? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Dehner vs. Vogel - I use Petries
Mane pulling vs. GroomaSolo Comb - Grooma, no question
1st & 3rd billets vs. 2nd & 3rd - How about long vs. short billets?
Jack Russell vs. Corgi - Jack Russell
Corgi (Pembroke) vs. Corgi (Cardigan) - Jack Russell
Tailored Sportsman vs. Millers CR-7 - Aanstadt Das fullseats (or perhaps the booger fully seatless model, lol)
Appaloosas vs. Anything - TB, TB, TB
Chocolate vs. Vanilla - white chocolate

and finally, the longest lasting argument ever to appear in Ann Landers column,
Toilet Paper: Fall OVER the roll vs. Hang UNDER the roll. - We ALL know that the tissue always hangs UNDER the roll in the toniest homes!

[Hephaistion]

Rescuemom - I beg to differ! The roll ALWAYS comes over the top! It makes more sense that way IMO. (except for the time Mr.Giant Spider came over the top for a ride.. )

As for the others:

Dehner vs. Vogel - Vogels
Mane pulling vs. GroomaSolo Comb - the Grooma
1st & 3rd billets vs. 2nd & 3rd - 1st & 3rd of course!
Jack Russell vs. Corgi - Can't stand either
Corgi (Pembroke) vs. Corgi (Cardigan) - German Shephard (to menace smaller dogs)
Tailored Sportsman vs. Millers CR-7 - Pikeur
Appaloosas vs. Anything - Selle Francais
Chocolate vs. Vanilla - CHOCOLATE!

And finally, the age old question that I'm sure everyone's dying to know about me:

Boxers or Briefs? = the Boxer Brief of course!

[diane]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:

Dehner vs. Vogel - Konings
Mane pulling vs. GroomaSolo Comb - pulling
1st & 3rd billets vs. 2nd & 3rd - 1st & 3rd
Jack Russell vs. Corgi - we have both
Corgi (Pembroke) vs. Corgi (Cardigan) - Pembroke
Tailored Sportsman vs. Millers CR-7 - TS or Pikuer
Appaloosas vs. Anything - Anything
Chocolate vs. Vanilla - Chocolate
and finally, the longest lasting argument ever to appear in Ann Landers column,
Toilet Paper: Fall OVERthe roll vs. Hang UNDER the roll. Over
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This topic has been wonderful,

[Retrophish]

Sometimes the solution to these heated debates is so simple. The problems are from misunderstanding. Any one remember playing that telephone game that illustrates how rumour get all convoluted? (make a line and wisper something in the first persons ear and they then whisper to the next.......)

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:
Perhaps, since we have proved we can handle *hot* topics in a logical, non-attacking manner, now would be the time to settle the following issues:

Dehner vs. Vogel
1st & 3rd billets vs. 2nd & 3rd
Tailored Sportsman vs. Millers CR-7

Jair has the right idea, Boxer Briefs ONLY, please - there solved.

Jack Russell vs. Corgi
Corgi (Pembroke) vs. Corgi (Cardigan)

One of each, please - there solved.

Appaloosas vs. Anything
Mane pulling vs. GroomaSolo Comb

Pick the App and you dont need to worry about the mane - just kidding.

Chocolate vs. Vanilla

Swirl

and finally, the longest lasting argument ever to appear in Ann Landers column,
Toilet Paper: Fall OVERthe roll vs. Hang UNDER the roll.

This one is so difficult that I have to admit, we just let the roll sit on the back of the toilet rather then offend anyone.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
No kidding, folks, this has been a great thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can I get thougts on this?:
As a straight person (or at least only slightly bent) I have seen that it seems almost easier to be in the horse world and be gay. Some of the greats out there seem to surround themselves with birds of a feather and if your not of that type, seems like it's harder - despite the talent level. I know of a very specific example of when being straight actually detrimented a persons career. Does this seems accurate and might this be a reason for a seemingly high amount of homosexuals in the horse world - because the straights find it too hard and get out? Just a thought - I know I might be all washed up, but there does seem to be some reverse discrimination. Of course, I know there are some top riders that are straight too, but Im talking about the average Joe's, not those extremes.

[Hephaistion]

Interesting points Retrophish. (did you get my email?)

I would say to the first part, that yes, it is easier being gay in the horse world because in general it is more accepted. (as evidenced on this thread). No one thinks twice about a gay man at their barn. They might notice he's gay, depending on the individual, but then just not think about it anymore. However in the general work force (ie. "suit world") it is more noticed and probably thought about quite a bit. And, in lots of cases, not treated well by the other male co-workers. My old job which I hated was like that, a lot of the men were very standoffish towards me (some more enlightened individuals thought it was kind of cool that I was gay) and some I got the impression were scared that I "was catching" or something /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif . Hated that job. Worse thing was that I never actually said anything about it at the beginning- a b*tch of a female coworker who was upset after months of flirting unsucessfully with me until I finally said "not interested" blabbed over the whole (+300 staff) office! Grrrrrr.

Left that job to work back at the barn for a while to re-establish my equilibrium. And man, what a joy. Not just the horse aspect which is incredibly soothing (I often go to the barn if I need to think) but just that people know me for who I am. And thats it.

As for you other view, Retro, that in the close-knit hunter jumper world you almost NEED to be gay to get ahead. Hmmm. While I can see that happening on a small scale, I think that in the long run - its how your ride and conduct yourself that will make an indiviual succeed. How I can see it happening though is through a gardening example: there are lots of gay men/women in the garden industry, and as many know, the gay community is good at recognizing their own. My mom loves gardening stuff - so I offered to take her to this great garden centre near my barn (very, upscale, snooty type place, lots of beautfiul flowers etc. though - the garden centre, not my barn). I noticed right away the owner/propieter and main helper were gay. Mom doesn't think about this. Anyways, when my mom was trying to get help, she said the men were snotty and rude and kept brushing her off with "back in a second", however, when I stopped the very gay owner for help - I suddenly got the royal treatment. Big smile etc. and a "what can I do for YOU". My mom asked after, why was he suddenly so polite to you and not me? My answer: because he knew I was gay. So yes, there is favourtism out there.

I haven't had much to do with the big hunter/jumper shows, so someone else will have to give examples of gay favourtism in those circles. Hope I am making sense...

Tell me more about your example, Retrophish. I'd like to hear it.

[pwynnnorman]

I think it IS starting to be cool to be gay, particularly in the horse industry (including the women). At the same time, though, I think what Retro is seeing has to do with the number of top trainers who are (openly) gay. If you think back 15-20 years or so, especially to the jumper ranks, you might recall the dominant male figure was dramatically different, wouldn't you say?

[brilyntrip]

ok so here's my in put ....Gay straight whatever....it is ridiculous to make such a big deal about someone else's sexual orientation...It is a fact of life ,the differences are what keep things interesting...I do not care as long as no one is hurt.Kids should be left alone to find their own way.

[Kryswyn]

PacificSolo: God loves all the little children in the world, even the ones who show Arabians in the hunter rings. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[N&B&T]

Toilet paper under...so when kitty plays with it, s/he doesn't unravel the whole darn roll (that goes for paper towels, too!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Once again, a wonderful discussion... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Pepper]

Retrophish, perhaps the perception that gays have an easier row to hoe in the English equestrian world stems from the fact that people tend to remember gayness, not straightness. Sexual orientation tops the list of characteristics we use to describe a person only when they are gay, not when they are straight.

[Hephaistion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
Hey, Jair! I just started excercising horses for an Arabian Sporthorse farm, and most of their crosses are with the SF's...I haven't ridden either of the ones that are broke yet, but I'll let you know what I think of 'em both after I do! Absolutely awesome breed and so gorgeous to look at!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PacificSolo - sounds like a cool job. You are so right about the SF's - they are beautiful. I fell in love with them when I first saw the French Team in action at the Royal Winter Fair in the '80's. They are like peas in a pod in how powerful and sleek they look. Gotta love Quito de Baussy and Baloubet de Rouet!

Hey Nancy - never thought about that particular reason for hanging under. Not that our cat would ever do someting like that... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Good point Pwynn - 20 years ago would have been different (was only 7 so no personal experience), although I imagine the gay men were there, they weren't Out There so to speak. Good to see that's it become more accepted, especially from some of the people who posted here who indicated that they had grown up with same-sex couples at their barns as trainers, and never thought anything of it. That's how it should be IMO!

Hey, if its trendy to be gay, then I must be TOTALLY TRENDY because I really am!!! LOL http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/cool.gif

[horsenut]

Jair, I'm one of the lurkers you referred to in a previous post. I've been enjoying this thread for the last week. Not to leave anyone out (EVERYONE'S posts have been really great and thought-provoking), but I've especially enjoyed the exchanges between Pacificsolo and Jair.

[Duffy]

OK, Jair. . .Since the "marry" thread was deleted, I'll just have to post here to find out more about your brother-in-law and his uncle! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif 35 yrs old is pretty close to my ex, but 65, hmmmmm....still a possibility.......Need more info! LOL

Oh, Nancey -- I can definitely sympathize with the cat issue w/ the toilet paper. One of mine used to not like it when I was away!!

[This message has been edited by Duffy (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Hephaistion]

Thank you very much Horsenut! Glad you have been reading. Its been quite the thread. BTW I was a chronic lurker for awhile myself - till I came out of the closet (pun intended) ! LOL

As for you Duffy - what happened to the "marry" thread? That was getting pretty funny. Oh well, I have know doubt that we'll all find another silly topic one day... but that was pretty good for a friday!

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Retrophish]

Why did the marry thread go away? I've actually been working today rather then lurking and next thing I know - >poof< gone.

Speaking of marriage, how many places allow gay marriages (whether they are rich or poor)?? I have a hard time seeing what the difference is between "normal" marriages and same sex. Why is this such a hard policy decision?

The place I work just instituted a policy that allows health care plan to cover same sex, gay couples. Pretty risque for the conservative company that Im with. The lawyers were going crazy with all the implications. For example if you are not married and are living with a hetero partner, cant claim them, but if you are living with the same sex and say you are gay, no problem.

I can see both sides, but it should be interesting to see what develops.

[Duffy]

I'd printed out the "marry rich" thread for my sister's amusement/entertainment last night -- glad I did, except for the additions today before it was deleted!!

[horsenut]

Duffy, me too! I just found the "Marry Rich" thread today and printed it out a couple of hours ago. Thank goodness! I would have been p***ed off if I decided to wait until after work and came back to find it gone!

[Hephaistion]

Hi Retrophish!

Funny, was just talking about gay marriages with another friend. The province I live in has just declared that they are going to fight the Canadian government to allow gay marriages here - they feel that it goes against the charter of human rights by denying "freedom of choice". Good for them! I actually believe quite strongly in gay marriages - I think that if two people love eachother and feel that they would like to have their relationship sealed with a special ceremony that also has legal benefits, then they should be allowed too. It would certianly help in legal terms for those gay couples who have been together for years and when one dies - the vulture of a family swoops in a takes everything without a dime going to the partner of x number of years!

I think the problem with it being recognized comes back to the issue that "marriage should bear fruit", and that as most gay couples aren't going to produce offspring, then there is no validity in the marriage.

Funny, because in general I see lots of hetero couples not bothering to get married anymore at all because of the expense/hassle. But after so many years the common-law benefits kick in so there is still some legality to it. I believe some states/provinces (including mine) have common-law benefits for gay couples in place at the moment. A step in the right direction I think!

Glad to hear your company gives same-sex benefits Retro!

Hey Duffy - glad you saved the thread!

[This message has been edited by Jair (edited 07-21-2000).]

[Retrophish]

What about marriages between man and women that dont result in children? My boss and I were actually talking about this the other day after he read a super interesting article in one of his professional journals. The article was very scientific in discussing what really is a male and a female in terms of same sex marriages. All that xy, xx, xxy,xxyy......

Anyway, for each argument he posed for why same sex marriages shouldnt be allowed - I was able to illustrate the same example in "legal" marriages.

For example, he said, All sorts of folks could just pair up for different financial benefits. Oh yeah, never see that in hetero marriages - wasnt that the basis of the "marriage" thread.

Then he went for the kid thing - not only are there straights that cant, wont have kids, but then there are the Melissa Etheridge, Jodi Fosters that seem to be doing ok.

I have to agree, Jair, if two people want to be together, no matter the perceived advantages, I think it should be an equitable right. I frankly cant see how anyone can believe different. Each person is free to make thier marriage as sacred or business like as they want, like religion. I think the marriage laws are an example of their not being a separation of church and state. I think.

[Erin]

The "marry rich" thread must have been deleted by the person who started it, because neither Weatherford or I did. We'll always tell you if we delete something, so if you don't see an explanation from us, just assume the person who started the thread deleted their initial post.

[Portia]

Oops. I fear the person who started the "marry rich" thread was serious, and we didn't take it quite that way. None of us really meant we would marry for money, but it was all in good fun. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I hope she wasn't offended.

[Kryswyn]

What do you mean, None of us would marry for money????? Heaven knows I wouldn't marry without it! Pardon moi, but to paraphrase someone's mother, "You can fall in love with someone rich even faster than someone poor." At least I can, I'm pretty sure Duffy could, I know Colin's not checking out homeless men before moving back to M'burg. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Moesha]

I work in a large well known international orgainization in Washington. Our medical, travel, educational,and financial benefits have always included domestic partners whether gay or straight. In fact the benefits can extend to whomever you choose One of the main reasons, I love the City and even though I love riding am leary about living too far out for the farm is the loss of that diversity. I know it is not far and completely prejudiced to think of people in rural areas as rednecks and bigots. The only problem is look at poor Mathew Shepard, and now most recently the Gay African American in West Virginia, who was beaten to death.

[Duffy]

Hey PacificSolo - Where's that millionaire you passed on? LOL -- Just kidding. . .My ex and I didn't have much of anything when we got married. . .Well, except for quite a bit of credit card debt! (seemed quite fashionable at the time) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif He has moved on to someone else. It's been painful, but it's getting better. But, no, I too would not marry for just money. However, I would not determine not to fall in love with someone just because they did either! LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But, I will also say that my criteria are not quite as naive as they were the first time around either. I will be much pickier all the way around with my next significant other, if I should be so lucky as to find one. On the other hand, (yet again LOL), deep down, I have to admit, I'm still a hopeless romantic, I'm afraid. . .

[pwynnnorman]

I'm glad someone brought up the WV incident. Right now it is under discussion as a hate crime and the national media is jumping on that bandwagon. But I'm here in WV, only about 20 miles from that town, and the LOCAL media has had more details that the national media don't want to be bothered with, details that do NOT make it sound like a hate crime, but rather an association that went really, really sour.

I think we have to take care that we don't automatically label something the worst it can be just because it shares a trait with that category. A gay guy who gets murdered isn't necessarily the victim of a (prejudicially motivated) hate crime. The WV incident--given the background of the victim and the town, his family and the accused's families--sure sounds more like hate from rage, not race or sexuality.

[Hephaistion]

Oh Moesha! You have brought up the saddest topic of all time - Matthew Shephard. Hearing about him was probably the only time something on the news made me cry - still feel like it whenever I see a picture of him. He was so young and just because of someone's bigotry and fear, he never got to experience life - let alone love.

Pwynn - I never hear about anything in WV which isn't surprising since when was the last time you heard anything about my city on the news down there? But you brought up a good point - it is too easy to assume that just because a murder/crime victim is gay that the death/incident was a result of that person's sexuality. Although there have been many many hate crimes against us (including one here a few months ago) terrible things can happen to anyone, regardless of race, religioun, sexuality, ethnicity etc. Lets face it, some people don't deserve to be considered "human".

and gay men can be evil too - just look at the Talented Mr. Ripley! (why you would ever want to knock of Jude Law is beyond me! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) Apparently some factions in the gay community wanted the film seriously edited as they didn't wasnt a gay character to be a sociopath as well. Felt it "fuel the fires" against them so to speak.

Duffy - am still working on my uncle for you. Will keep you posted. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Hi PacificSolo! Thanks for the new computer offer - might take you up on that one day!! LOL. I am at the library again (its raining and my partner wanted to look for a book - so I had a good excuse to come on line!).

[starlady]

The "should I marry for money" thread had it
all wrong. If you've ever read bumper stickers in Los Angeles you've seen: "I didn't marry for money--I DIVORCED for it!".

[Duffy]

Who has seen the new Ellen DeGeneres comedy special on HBO? I thought is was GREAT

[PepTalk]

I REALLY REALLY REALLY wanted to see it, but I don't have HBO! Grrrrr! Anyway, I am glad it was funny. Ellen can make me laugh, anytime, anyday!

[Snowbird]

Any time anyone is injured in any way, just because of a "difference" that is equally evil. I hope you will all remember that when you attack someone personally for having an idea with which you disagree.

It's fine to debate the issue, to explore the ideas that built the opinions, but never to seek to humiliate or intimidate someone for being different.

We have on this thread discussed our differences, we have discussed many of the taboo subjects like religion, politics and honesty. We can discuss and learn from each other about why or how these things came to be, if they are valid. Some may even change their minds.

[This message has been edited by Snowbird (edited 07-29-2000).]

WOW-what a thread!!
It has been a pleasant surprise to read through EVERY post. Imagine - all this on the COTH BB- whooda thunk it?

[Snowbird]

Ideas can be very dynamic things, when people start to think for themselves they stop being sheep. We are watching an awakening, who knows where it will take us?

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

So how many pages is it to print this thread?
I keep being late to work 'cause I have to read "just one more reply"... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifI wish I had been able to read this thread whenI was a teenager - though I had heard that "all the hunter/jumper guys are gay" I hadn't heard a peep about the possibility of women riders being gay, or event riders - and when I came out in college my school was building a beautiful new barn, but hadn't yet funded a women's studies department, so the campus political lesbians were pissed, and it sealed my belief that it was an either/or thing. Sigh. Now - 15 years later- I have a wonderful partner - and we're thinking of taking up my Vermont justice-of-the-peace aunts' offer to civil union us- and am back into riding (more eventing than showing, but y'all have far cooler discussions here, even aside from this one /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )But I still don't know where all the lesbians are - esp since so many women with horses have sensible hair, look other women in the eye when conversing, and kick butt with basic physical labor competencies - all tendencies I learned long ago to associate with lesbians. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif So much for my alleged gaydar. Hope my smilies are showing up - guess I need to check out the tutorial on them instead of going to work now...

[Mikey]

Really, now. Everyone knows the t.p. should fall over the roll. How else can the cleaning lady fold the end into the nice little "V"?

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ponygyrl:
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif[/img] So much for my alleged gaydar. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL!!! That is SOOOO funny, ponygrl and is a lesson for all. Prejudice stinks no matter where it is. The horse world has been one of the few places where a woman (not a 'strong' woman, but a woman d**mmit)can be herself, not play games, just be her own forthright, strong self and not be labelled by insecure others as gay or anti-male or a **itch. Because I am just myself, a strong PERSON who happens to be female, I fit very well in the horse world. My ex, who is gay, when he is angry with me likes to imply that the horse world women are all gay because of the very things ponygrl said, and therefore what is that saying about me???? Oh, please. Some people are so clueless about females. Sorry, pal, we're just women, gay and straight and bi and having a blast and to us IT DOESN'T MATTER what the others of us are. We can all be friends and admirers of each other. He thinks since I'm straight these implications will hurt me and my daughter - NOT! Real women understand that there's room for the dainty feminine types, the curvaceous bombshells, the stick-figured, the stocky, the plain, the pretty, the strong; long hair, 'sensible' hair, no hair - women come in all shapes and sizes and don't accept the stereotypes that if we look one way or another our sexual orientation must therefore be one way or another. What does it matter if she can ride, can train, takes good care of her horses? I don't need to fit in anyone's box or be what they think a woman should be. I am a woman - get over it. Same goes for the guys: they come in all styles, too. In our world it should be the horsemanship that counts, and I think the horse world has done better than most others in letting that be the final judge of a person's worth and we should all be mighty proud of that.

[Pepper]

Ponygrl, I sure liked your last post. The "where are the lesbians" question is sort of a head-scratcher, but personally that's one of the things I love about riding. The traits many folks associate with the lesbian stereotype lend themselves to the horse world -- physical strength, sensible hair/attire, tendency to face things head-on. Maybe lesbians blend in to the horse world because its the environment where their less-than-"feminine" traits don't stand out, and are assets instead. It's nice when such traits stand for competence, not just for sexual orientation and politics. The horse world is one place where women get to be themselves, without attracting labels for it, other than "horsewoman."
Some of you may have seen an amusing anecdote that was published a couple months ago -- I think it was the Chron, but I'm not certain. A local reporter covering a dressage show observed that men and women compete on equal footing in most equestrian sports. Indeed, it was noted, men and women riders wear the same clothes. The editor added a quip about busy changing rooms between rides.
This really is a special sport. In how many other sports could we look forward to seeing which women AND men will represent us on the Olympic team?

[Hephaistion]

Hi PonyGyrl - Welcome to the BB! and thanks for joining in on this discussion.

You and Anne have brought up some good points about women in horses. Funny, I too have noticed how strong-minded horsey-women are. Many seem to be very practical - probably because they have learned to rely on themselves as the main caregiver of their horse. Not to mention that most of the grooms are girls too! LOL - Girls and horses: that should be a thread unto itself!

Anne, I think your ex and I need to sit down to have a little chat! Can't believe he has those ideas about how your relationships with your female friends could affect your daughter! OMG - I mean, what gender does he think most of your daughters friends will be?

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jair:

Anne, I think your ex and I need to sit down to have a little chat!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahhh, well, actually, he's a pretty great guy. We all have our less-than-stellar moments, though, myself included. It's just that he made a crack last time we talked about how the women & men who ride hunters are all gay, hoping to get to me. I left him but spend almost all my time with h/j & eventing folk and yes, a number of the guys are gay, which he has extrapolated to then everybody's gay. He doesn't understand.

I have a 14 yr old son who is not crazy about the persnickety-ness of hunter riders and a 16-yr old daughter who is big-time into horses - the crack was made to get to me about my daughter and her strong-willed, confident female horse buddies who don't give a hoot about what the guys think of them, so he was implying that meant that it's not just the guys in hunters, but the girls, too. He's so clueless sometimes. He hates when others make stereotypes about being gay but he does it himself by what he just said! And lots of people do this. Sometimes I think gay people I know are more prejudiced and full of stereotypes against straight people than straight people are against them, but I guess it's the same both ways.

For instance, back when AIDS was first being discussed he was so furious that it was being labelled a gay disease and would shower me with statistics to show that wasn't true. Then when poor Magic Johnson got AIDS the first thing my ex said to me was, see? so many pro athletes that you all think are so macho are really gay--there have been rumours about Magic for years. I said, but AIDS isn't just a gay disease. Magic says he's straight and he got it heterosexually...my ex laughed and said, oh, come on, that's so rare (this was years ago, remember)that transmission is rare, of course he's a closet gay if he turns up with AIDS.

Aaarrrrghhh! He never saw his own double standard in those statements. Until I pointed it out of course! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

Anyway, he could tell you worse stories about me, I suppose, and I could tell a hundred nice ones about him when all is said and done.


[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 08-01-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 08-01-2000).]

[Hephaistion]

Hey, thanks for clarifying that for me Anne.

I totally understand about the double standards. Its funny how sometimes we manage to confuse even ourselves about what we think about an issue. I am sure I have contradicted myself more than once in some of my posts. We always know what we mean on the inside, but somehow it doesn't always transfer to the written form very well.

Its like some of my university essays, I knew exactly what I was talking about - its too bad the professor didn't! LOL!

[rescuemom]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moesha:
... in Washington. Our medical, travel, educational,and financial benefits have always included domestic partners whether gay or straight.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The health insurance benefit coverage for domestic partners is mandated by city law (and I have no idea how they got that past Congress). Any couple who have been together 6 months or longer may apply for coverage.

[Retrophish]

Hey Jair,

We must have been in the same classes!! Damn those professors - what were they thinking?

Maybe Im totally out of touch, but I dont see too much difference in tolerance levels of the city versus the country. I tend to like being in the country, but went to school in the city. Best I can tell, it depends on what the person looking WANTS to think. Maybe in the city, there is more to look at so no one is really paying too much attention to what orientation a person might be.

Im straight, but at times (especially in scary, goon infested bars) it was far wiser to seem "with" one of my girl friends. Damn if we didnt have the hardest time convincing some of those ex-con looking sorts that we were NOT interested. Maybe I dont play a good lesbian, but they wanted to believe we were hot for them. ICCKKK.

Then, on the other hand, sometimes when shopping with a girl friend, some of the older ladies will eyeball us like we are lesbians (do you know what look Im talking about?). That's why I guess it is mostly determined by what the other person wants to think.

Same thing with some of the hate crimes. The criminal wants to think those bad, criminal-motivating thoughts. I wonder how many crimes have taken place that were motivated by the thought that a person was gay and in fact they were not? Never the less, I think you cant say tolerance is more prevelant in one area or another. I think the tolerance comes with the level of education and horse people tend to be more highly educated (because we are all so very smart!!) then society in general. What does everyone else think?

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

Aiiee. I just had composed a cogent, incisive, dare I say brilliant post on hate crimes, men in skirts, and how 'bout them disciples washing each others feet all the time, and when I went to find out how to make a wink IE /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif - I lost it. Sigh. But my truck was due for July inspection, so I've got to go cope with that now.
Printed most of this thread last night (around 50 pages) to share with my sweetie what I was sitting here chortling about, and now she's laughing too. Which reminded me how I grew up completely completely indoctrinated in toilet paper over the top. There was only one way, and the other one was wrong. Then- a year or so ago- I discovered that out the back was easier to find in the dark. But that not knowing which way it would be was terribly terribly frustrating. Parable? You tell me /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif