Horse Psychics and Christian Beliefs, Are They In Conflict? [Archive]

CTM

Aug. 20, 2001, 08:26 PM

I'm with LaurieB on this one - how can consulting a psychic be considered unChristian? (And I understand that LMH has consulted a horse psychic herself with positive results?!) I have used a horse psychic with wonderful results and sure didn't feel that there was anything bad or unGodlike about doing it.People are certainly entitled to believe or not believe that animal communication is possible, but I don't see any wrong in attempting to better your relationship with your equine partner - it's not as if consulting a psychic is a Satanic thing - I know several Christian psychics who see no conflict with their beliefs. They believe they have this gift from God and use it to help other people and animals.

Perhaps LMH could futher explain her concerns.

CTM

Aug. 21, 2001, 04:06 AM

Perhaps we need some clarification here - I think when we talk about the 'horse psychic' what we mean is an animal communicator - not some tarot card reading voodoo priestess. I can see how the term 'psychic' could have some certain connotation for some people. The communicator doesn't try to predict the future, etc. She just gives you feedback from your animal. What is wrong with that?

Anne FS

Aug. 21, 2001, 05:24 AM

lmh, I think God created people with incredible mental potential, it's just that not all of us make use of it all. If a person is open and 'listening' and picks up things from animals, I think that's a wonderful gift.

Probably a lot of psychics and animal communicators are quacks, but that doesn't negate that some are not. Like when the horse supposedly says the stuffing on the left side of the saddle has shifted (read that one in a Horse People editorial)-- think about it, how does a horse have a concept of wool flocking? Sheesh.

But I do know people who spend vast amounts of time around horses, and not just riding, but being with them without the radio blaring in the barn. After years of this, I think a communion can develop. Who's to say what communications are or are not possible? Think Jung's collective unconscious here, Maslow's self-actualization.

Sometimes I think God must be disappointed that He gave us all these incredible abilities and potentials and very few of us open ourselves up to them. He gave us many gifts to use. If some people can communicate with animals, what a wonderful thing.

LMH

Aug. 21, 2001, 06:10 AM

before everyone jumps down my throat...and Tallyrand-yes there was a time 6 years ago that I called one once-was very uncomfortable after the fact-and would not do it again. And LaurieB-doubt your catechism did say anything about it-but I believe the Bible does.

I was not making any judgments on anyone. I was reading through the Christians and horses thread. I recently had a very long conversation with a friend of mine who used to be involved in horses (before daughter grew up and quit riding)and is also a very conservative Christian-it was interesting talk about this very topic.

In the last two weeks maybe I have had three different people refer to animal communicators-so it made me think about all of this...that's all thought it would make for a more interesting thread than what hay do you feed-that's all.

I was not going to offer my personal opinion at this point, was simply curious in thoughts in the same way that the other thread interested me.

BUT since I seem to have brought havoc-I will put my position out there since everyone seems so baffled...

First I was raised in a very conservative Lutheran family. I interpret, read, whatever the Bible from a literal standpoint. There are several places in the Bible that refer to not relying on man but on God, God's displeasure in man trying perform supernatural acts (hmmmm would talking to a in horse in Georgia from Chicago be considered supernatural??? Actually other than Mr Ed any "talking" is in itself pretty supernatural to me), etc.

Here's a few other passages that may hold an interest....

Lev 19:31 "Do not turn to meiums or seek out spiritists,, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord you God."

Isaiah 42;8, Deut 18:10-12, 2 Chron 33:6.

So there you have it-it was simply a curious question-I personally cannot justify the two-not losing sleep over anyone that can-just simple bored on a Monday night curiosity.

I find it it be a very shaky area...something that just sits a little funny. I OFTEN make jokes about it being just a little too close to dancing with the devil for my taste...

Now if you aren't a conservative Christian (in tersm of interpretation) then this question simply wouldn't apply. If you aren't a Christian-it wouldn't apply. Actually to be completely fair I guess we could throw conservative Jews into the question pot since a lot of the versus are from the Old Testament. So that was all-and I seriously doubt I am the only living person out there who sees a conflict in the two-actually there are now two people out there-me and Julie-oh and Snowbird maybe.

So I would apreciate it if we could perhaps ease off me personally-just throwing soemthing out there since threads on the ethics of double commissions have been discussed ad nauseum!

Life is too short to dance with ugly men

tle

Aug. 21, 2001, 07:06 AM

Obviously I have nothing really to add to the question at hand (as anyone who read the other Christianity thread knows I'm not Christian). Should be an interesting discussion to read though.

But please... in your responses, please make sure you explain yourself well. Witchcraft has NOTHING to do with devil worship or satanism. And I happen to know a lot of tarot card readers... the cards are sometimes used as tools, they aren't evil either.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Chief2

Aug. 21, 2001, 07:22 AM

I have to say that I find all of this christian thread business to be offensive. It amazes me that there is no one on this board who feels the same way. It is terribly insulting to those of us of other persuasions. If you are looking for an animal communicator who exemplifies christianity, you need go no further than St. Francis of Assisi. I assume his credentials would pass muster with the most devout christians here. As for the Inquisition, perhaps it was great censorship for christianity, but it wasn't so great for the scientists, the artists, men of letters, gypsies, jews, etc. whose way of life was different than the narrowly accepted status quo. I don't go categorizing who I will talk to, who I will ride with, who I will train with, or whose horse I will care for based on whether or not they are a christian. If everything being done with horses must first square with christianity before you step forward, you will be missing out on a lot of good people, thoughts and ideas.

Posting Trot

Aug. 21, 2001, 07:31 AM

I come at this topic as someone who teaches African history at a college. First, one can take an anthropological view on the subject that there are a multiplicity of belief systems out there. A few people adhere very strongly and coherently to the most systematic and thoroughgoing version of their belief system. In this case, these people would be Christians who believe that animal communicators are either, at best, charlatans or, at worst, communing with a supernatural spirit that was not God.

Most people, however, tend to combine belief systems; to seek out and adopt aspects of multiple belief systems that suit their needs, even if the resulting mixture is not internally consistent. Thus, it is quite possible for people to consider themselves sincere Christians but still also believe that they can have supernatural communications.

TLE, as to witchcraft not being the same as satan worship, it really all depends on your perspective. It's not like there's an objective reality on this issue. Conservative Christians (and I am *not* a practicing Christian) would definitely believe that witchcraft and satan worship *are* one and the same. Practicing wicans would not agree. Different belief systems = different beliefs and perspectives.

Inverness

Aug. 21, 2001, 07:54 AM

As an atheist, I find them both a little wacky. Why is it more difficult to believe that a person can communicate with animal than to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin and rose from the dead?

Anne FS

Aug. 21, 2001, 08:04 AM

I don't think Snowbird was saying she believed the Inquisition was a good thing.

lmh, I see your quotes. Are there any from the New Testament that apply to this? For Christians, the New Testament builds upon the Old. For instance, Christians eat shellfish and pork, which is directly commanded against in the Bible, and although women who had babies used to wait to be 'churched' afterwards, Christians don't follow the rules about no sex for a certain period after giving birth or menstruating that are outlined in the Old Testament. (which, btw, were pretty thoughtful rules for giving women a break from men and being allowed to recuperate without being pestered).

Jesus foretold both Judas' treachery and Peter's betrayal. Was that evil of Him?

Don't get hung up in narrow interpretations that stifle God. Perhaps your church or a nearby church has Bible study groups that could help you with these issues.

You had a question, so don't mind people who jump on you for asking. While rebuking you for being intolerant, they'll be just as intolerant of you.

So, to finally answer your question, no, I have never utilized a horse psychic, by which I am interpreting you to mean an animal communicator, but it's just because I haven't done it, not that it would be against my Christian beliefs. I have a family member who has on several occasions been "spoken to" by horses. The first time it frightened her, it was so clear and strange, but it never felt evil in any way.

[This message was edited by Anne FS on Aug. 21, 2001 at 11:15 AM.]

lisa

Aug. 21, 2001, 08:08 AM

I was raised Catholic. Catholics do not think psychics are a Good Thing. Then again, they don't think artificial birth control is a good thing either...

OK, psychics and Christianity... hmmm...

My point of view: If you believe that a psychic can predict the future, and you rely exclusively on that information to make life-altering decisions, then yes, I do believe that Christianity has a problem with that because of the "no other Gods before me" clause.

However, as far as psychic, or non-speaking, let's say, communication goes, how is that in itself against God? How, if you pray to God, or Jesus, or St. Anthony, are they supposed to "answer" you? Do they write a letter? No, it is through feelings, or some other non-spoken "revelation" that you might THINK about. Which is what an animal communicator does.

My personal belief is that we are all born with psychic abilities. It is just another part of the brain's function, like an affinity for music, or art, or language, or whatever. Call it a sixth sense, mother?s intuition, or whatever, it what we choose to do with it that matters. How many times have you heard of people who thought their child was in trouble, or had a sense that a loved one had died, and it turned out to be true? Is acting on those feelings against God? I think not. I know there have been many, many times I have had psychic experiences. Now, my husband, who thinks it is B.S., will say that he hasn't, or doesn't. I'm sure that he has had "feelings" about things, even though it may have been when he was younger. But he didn't believe that they were psychic experiences, and chose not to develop that part of his brain. People such as animal communicators and other mediums have done just that.

Christianity has a problem with psychics and mediums because they interfere with the direct "psychic" line from man to God. But Christianity says that priests are OK.

Which brings me to literal Bible interpretation. I think that's a load of crap people use to justify actions or thoughts. I mean, come on, the Bible also refers to slaves, and women as having no rights, and an eye for an eye, and a myriad of other things we as a society deem as wrong today. Plus, back to the psychic communication topic, how was the Bible written?

Besides, are animal communicators exempt from this clause anyway because animals supposedly have no souls?

tle

Aug. 21, 2001, 08:12 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>TLE, as to witchcraft not being the same as satan worship, it really all depends on your perspective. It's not like there's an objective reality on this issue. Conservative Christians (and I am *not* a practicing Christian) would definitely believe that witchcraft and satan worship *are* one and the same. Practicing wicans would not agree. Different belief systems = different beliefs and perspectives.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

PostingTrot... while I see what you're trying to get at, no... they are NOT the same and NO it doesn't matter what your perspective is. Can they both be defined as "bad"... well, yeah, just as the subject of this thread could be described as "bad". People don't like it, don't agree with it... ok. But satanism is the worship of satan. Witchcraft is not. THAT is the key... and an important key that a vast majority of people don't understand. It's like saying that Buddism and Judeism are the same... they are both religious followings, but they are not the same, regardless of your perspective.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

Inverness

Aug. 21, 2001, 08:14 AM

JulieMontgomery - I think your last post was likely directed at me. In response, I find the threads on Christianity intellectually stimulating and provocative even though, as you put it, I am a "non-ascriber." I do live among Christians, maintain close friendships with Christians (and people of other faiths, for that matter), and I find the study of religious theory and theology very interesting. What I believe or do not believe has very little, if any, impact on my interest in the subject matter as an academic endeavor. I hope this answers your question.

Anne FS

Aug. 21, 2001, 08:23 AM

lisa, I'm with you. You said what I feel.

One clarification. You wrote: "But Christianity says that priests are ok." *Catholics* say this. Other Christian denominations feel that Catholic priests interfere with the direct "psychic" line from God to man, and that too much authority is vested in priest and Pope as middlemen.

Inverness

Aug. 21, 2001, 10:12 AM

Sounds good JulieMontgomery - I just assumed you were addressing me b/c your post immediately followed mine. At any rate, I'm thoroughly enjoying the discussion. Gallop on!!

lisa

Aug. 21, 2001, 10:18 AM

Anne FS: You're right. I should have clarified.

As far as the Catholic belief of confessing one's sins is concerned, to which I assume you are referring, I agree I should have been more specific in my post and not used the word priest. The concept of the clergy being middlemen is not specific to Catholicism, IMHO.

I understand exactly what you are saying, though, so I'm not trying to be argumentative...

Coreene

Aug. 21, 2001, 10:26 AM

Really, who cares? It's an entertainment thing.

Inverness

Aug. 21, 2001, 10:37 AM

ROTFLOL, Coreene!!

AMom

Aug. 21, 2001, 11:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>My personal belief is that we are all born with psychic abilities. It is just another part of the brain's function, like an affinity for music, or art, or language, or whatever. Call it a sixth sense, mother?s intuition, or whatever, it what we choose to do with it that matters. How many times have you heard of people who thought their child was in trouble, or had a sense that a loved one had died, and it turned out to be true? Is acting on those feelings against God? I think not. I know there have been many, many times I have had psychic experiences. Now, my husband, who thinks it is B.S., will say that he hasn't, or doesn't. I'm sure that he has had "feelings" about things, even though it may have been when he was younger. But he didn't believe that they were psychic experiences, and chose not to develop that part of his brain. People such as animal communicators and other mediums have done just that.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lisa~I don't have anything to add to the main debate, but had to respond to this because I agree with you! I swear weird things happen to me sometimes--not EVIL, just weird--that really make me wonder...Like a few weeks ago when I was making dinner and suddenly thought of our own Colin and wondered if she would ever be allowed back on the boards...Next morning I log on and what do I see but a thread saying she was reinstated! Then yesterday for no reason at all I start thinking of that poem "Jabberwocky" trying to remember how it goes, and log on this morning and it is quoted on one of the AHSA/USET threads!

Is it a useful "gift"--not thus far, and is only perhaps interesting to me alone, but I am having fun with it...

Anne FS

Aug. 21, 2001, 11:30 AM

Actually, no, I wasn't referring specifically to confession, but to practices that used to be: for instance, 30 yrs ago Bible studies without priests were frowned upon, as it was felt that a priest was needed to interpret the Bible. (Hmmmm, with all the nonsense I read sometimes, maybe this wasn't such a bad idea--just kidding). Also, praying to saints and the Blessed Mother, giving money to the church to say Masses and prayers for you. All this intercession and not going straight from person to God, but through the priest or the saints.

Ahh, confession, I should write a thesis on this. At first you're right, on the surface it is more inserting of a middleman and if you have committed a mortal sin, you go to hell w/o it, right? Yet humans being what they are, sometimes I think those early Church fathers were great psychologists. Sometimes humans in our weakness need humans, and to be able to go to a person--a living, breathing person you can touch and be in their tangible presence, confess your sins and *receive absolution* can lift a great weight from a person. Sure, I'm sure it was abused and people were made to feel small and worthless, but it has been my personal experience that when it comes to the big things, the priest in the confessional is a great source of comfort and help. To hear in audible words, "Your sins are forgiven, go in peace" can be a great help for some people who take it all seriously. Yes, God is available to all, but sometimes we are so frail and weak and just need a comforting voice.

Snowbird

Aug. 21, 2001, 01:01 PM

You're right of course, I did not attempt to justify the Inquisition, I simply pointed out that those people were convinced they were justified. And, that there are people on both sides of every issue that are in an extreme position, as well as all the shades of gray between.

I think myself, that it is ludicrous to assume that some person from Chicago or wherever, sitting in their home without having known your horse can tell you anything useful. First you won't ever know if it's true or not. Second, there are skills used by those who employ manipulating our minds to find out by what we say, what we would like to think. Third, I do believe that animals and "our" horses do communicate with telepathy. I do believe that it possible to be so close to our animals that they do let us know what they feel. Now, whether or not this extends to a previous time in their life, I'm not sure. I think when we meet a horse we can figure out some things by our relationship with animals. I know there are people who can get messages that indicate where the pain is, when it's finally time to say good-bye, if they're in trouble. I don't think that they're going to tell me about some cat that was a stall mate when they were weaned, or the name of the previous owner who may have abused or neglected them.

While horses will link with a barn manager or an owner, I seriously doubt that their communication is so sophicated they can send these messagae re:telephone to some distant city. The latter falls into the realm of fortune tellers and gypsy spells.

While it may be possible that some mental abilities are stronger in other people and they might be able in a face to face meeting to glean some information by telepathy from a horse; I find it illogical that some person sitting at home who is not in any proximity to an animal could develop a rapport with that horse enough to actually reach their mind.

Even in the realm of human psychics, I think that Edgar Casey was the only one who did the long distance diagnosis. I venture to say that perhaps a human to human psychic could go into some mystic
state that made it possible. But, horse to human over long distance with all the interesting details of their early years seems unlikely unless both the horse and psychic were in a trance. We will never know if horses have out of body experiences or if they can become an astral projection.

I think the energy of the human mind may be able to develop some telepathic skills, but rarely has the distance been greater than room to room and then the statistics don't indicate a very good success rate. For example, there is evidence that a psychic can use telekinesis to move a pendulum while concentrating on the pendulum in view and create an energy field to move it. I have never heard of some one who can do that and move the pendulum in another city somewhere if that person was not aware it would happen and therefore would not also be capable of telekinesis.

As much as I love horses and respect them I think it is too much to expect from their mental capacity and span of concentration.

So, on the issue I would think that such psychics are using the same methods as the traveling gypsy fortune teller and that is not something approved of as a christian pass time. Even Nostrademus had to hide his speculations by working secretly in his basement and disguising his impressions of the future in his mysterious quatrains in order not to be condemned by the church.

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Aug. 21, 2001 at 04:16 PM.]

Velvet

Aug. 20, 2002, 03:11 PM

Oh, how did this one end so quickly? I want this back at the top!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

daytimedrama

Aug. 20, 2002, 03:17 PM

omg I was going crazy reding the dates! I was like how is it already Aug 21, oops it's Aug 20 2002 /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~Christina~
"Take most people, they're crazy about cars. I'd rather have a goddamn horse. A horse is at least human, for god sake."
-JD Salinger, Catcher in the Rye

*Sunboom*

Aug. 20, 2002, 05:48 PM

I think the horse pshychic is kewl,I've never consulted to one,but I know people who have,I'd like to try it sometime,and as for the religon,even if it was against it,I think people would still use one(I would /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Caitlin*
Sun Salutation*

"Think of riding as a science, but love it as an art."~George Morris

LMH

Aug. 20, 2002, 05:55 PM

How did THIS come back up??? Wow---must be all the psychic threads!

Well since it is here-here is a point to ponder....the conservative view goes something like this:

Whatever answers you seek, you should look to God not man and He (God) will provide the answers. Yes, there were prophets in the OT that could "predict" the future-but all of these predictions tended to center on the "will of God and the coming of the Messiah."

There is no promise of such prophets once the Messiah came (again remember this applies if you are Christian-if you aren't then this is all a moot point).

I did a tiny bit of searching and found one verse that applies:

Deut 18:10 (NIV) "Let no one be found among you who.....is a medium, spiritist or contacts the dead."

Granted most "animal communicators" are "talking" to live animals, but I dare sare they could fall into the category of spiritist or medium?

If interested I can rummage up some more....

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

[This message was edited by LMH on Aug. 20, 2002 at 09:14 PM.]

LMH

Aug. 20, 2002, 06:26 PM

Lev 19:31 "Do not seek turn to mediums or seek out spritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the Lord you God."

Lev 20:27 "A man or woman who is a spiritist among you must be put to death. You must stone them; their blood will be on their own heads."

1 John 4:1

"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."

Leviticus 20:6
" 'I will set my face against the person who turns to mediums and spiritists to prostitute himself by following them, and I will cut him off from his people.

Another version of the one in the last post:

Deuteronomy 18:10-12

10 Let no one be found among you who sacrifices his son or daughter in [1] the fire, who practices divination or sorcery, interprets omens, engages in witchcraft, 11 or casts spells, or who is a medium or spiritist or who consults the dead. 12 Anyone who does these things is detestable to the Lord , and because of these detestable practices the Lord your God will drive out those nations before you.

2 Chronicles 33:6
He sacrificed his sons in [1] the fire in the Valley of Ben Hinnom, practiced sorcery, divination and witchcraft, and consulted mediums and spiritists. He did much evil in the eyes of the Lord , provoking him to anger.

Well that should get things rolling.

Remember, i didn't write this-just copied it from the good ole Bible itself.

I realize of course that it is all up to interpretation, but for those that find animal communcators opposed to fundamental Christian beliefs, this is where they get that from.

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

mwalshe

Aug. 20, 2002, 06:36 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Lev 20:27 "A man or woman who is a spiritist among you must be put to death. You must stone them; their blood will be on their own heads."

1 John 4:1<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thou shalt not Kill

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
"Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apparently it is Ok to believe in SOME spirits then? Maybe animal communication is a gift from God.

Just curious- do you take EVERYTHING in the Bible literally? Because it contradicts itself about a million times PLUS huge amounts were lost or added in translation, especially from the original Hebrew. (My Jesuit godfather told me that, he could read about 10 languages)

Daydream Believer

Aug. 20, 2002, 06:37 PM

I was raised in a very conservative protestant family. Even with that early training, I can't conceive of any reason why a telepath who can understand and communicate with animals could possibly be antichristian. That bit about spiritists and mediums just isn't the same. These are not psychics really although they are sometimes called that. I liked the reference to St. Francis...very true.

After spending 9 years in the Army living, working and communicating with people of many varied beliefs and backgrounds...Jews, Muslims, Catholics, Wiccans, Mormans, Buddists, you name it...I've come to realize that there are many more ways to truth and enlightenment than just through Christianity. No one will ever convince me that God, who cries for every sparrow that falls from the sky, could condemn unbelievers to Hell as I was originally taught. Faith in God should not be earned from fear of eternal damnation but from love and kindness and caring for others. I think our acts in this life will greatly impact the life that follows this one and will determine whether we will return to try again or finally achieve our reward. I do believe in reincarnation and can no longer truly call myself a christian. I feel much more at peace with myself than I ever did before, now that I realize that there is not one true way, but many.

If animal communicators bother you because of your beliefs, then no one requires you to solicit their services...so what? Why do you care? Who are they hurting? No One.

Peace! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

LMH

Aug. 20, 2002, 06:48 PM

Well personally "I" don't care-not my business...it was simply a topic for discussion-one that can be discussed with respect, one should think.

As far as what I posted, I did a simple little search on Christians and Psychics and pulled these verses from articles that were written by Pastors, etc-"I" didn't think it up so don't get irritated with me.

This thread died a year ago and reappeared, so obviuosly someone else found the topic interesting.

And in answer to the question posed in a derogatory manner-do I take everything literally-that is with literal interpretation-well...uh....yes I do....that would be the definition of a "conservative" Christian.

Yes-thou shalt not kill-well we could start a whole debate on every verse now couldn't we? Let's keep the topic on the topic....or again, I could provide views on killing as well.

Do they get there powers from God? Most conservative Christian leaders and teachers would say absolutely not-that argument could go on for DAYS and PAGES-there are some interesting articles that explain all this-I would be happy to post those links rather than rewrite it myself.

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

horsekpr

Aug. 20, 2002, 07:00 PM

You are attempting to argue about belief systems. Either you believe or you don't. There is no reason to defend your beliefs.We all have the right to believe whatever we choose. Personally, I believe it is possible for all of us to learn to communicate with animals.It is a matter of learning how to tune into a different frequency.It is like reading and watching T.V. at the same time.You have to shift your attention.I don't believe there is anything evil,or un Christian about it.Like everything else,that is love based,it comes from God.

LMH

Aug. 20, 2002, 07:28 PM

I am not arguing belief systems---that is where the point is being completely lost and this is turning into to "ME" or "my beliefs" verses anyone in the world....

I posted a simple question-I am not being judgmental about anything anyone says-and would appreciate the same respect....

I simply posted the Bible verses because so many responses were "horrified" at the idea that it could be in some way against Christian beliefs to contact psychics....well....there they are-to be interpreted anyway anyone feels fit-or completely ignored.

It was meant to be an intelligent discussion on a topic that often comes up-the thread came up after PAGES of discussion on Christians in the riding world---it was never meant to cause degrading comments or judgments on what others believe-simply meant as a topic.

There have been many answers like " I don't believe everything the Bible says so I have no problem with it"-fine-great answer. Super.

Or-I was raised this was wrong....great.super.

Just CURIOUS how people arrive at the decision to make the call or run away.

And, yes there are many many different verses that talk about "evil psychics"---not all are to be trusted.

I have said it before and will say it again-if you do NOT consider yourself a "practicing Christian"-then guess what? The question doesn't apply! If you do-then how do you arrive at your decision. Quite simple.

Someone could simply ask-if you are a churchgoer, how do you show? Do you skip or go another night? If you AREN'T a churchgoer-then it wouldn't apply? Get it? Good! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

Snowbird

Aug. 20, 2002, 09:29 PM

There is no way to prove that what the animal communicator says is true! There is no way to prove that they are wrong because two communicators unknown to each other are going to give you different messages from your horse. You get to choose the response that suits you better.

If one tells you that the horse is surrounded by negative energy because he was weaned too early, or he lost his best friend a cat and he's lonesome, you don't know if it's true or not and you will never know.

The danger in psychics is they can have a great impact on the way you react to your horse or even your life. That impact can be constructive or it can cause bigger problems.

So the churches believe you should only have that kind of faith in your religion and not in a person. Why, because people are flawed and God is perfect.
In that sense it is an unchristian thing to do, and because the old testament is Judaism it is also against their philosophy, that was the moral of the "golden calf".

Is it a worthwhile effort depends on whether you think someone who doesn't know you or your horse can solve problems you didn't even know you had!

It's really irrelevant to me whether it's a palm reader, or someone who interprets Tarot cards, or someone who dances nude around a bonfire and reads the ashes. Yes, there are a few real psychic personalities, those rarely charge $45.00 by telephone without any contact with you. More often than not they clue into what you would like hear, they can sense you but not your horse. He doesn't answer questions to anyone, as much as we may wish it was not so.

He tells you by his ears, by his stance and the way he holds his head and tail what he is thinking. By his skin and muscle if he's sick. By his snorts and squeels of pleasure and pride he tells you he is happy.

Now, on the other side there are people who know you and may have an intuitive insight by certain signs and feelings of what is a problem and perhaps how to solve it. These people don't charge by the visit, they are mothers and teachers.

We are the ones who make the results come true from any prognosticator that we know. If you believe the miraculous brain we have can make things happen that might not have otherwise happened i.e. unaccountable spontaneous remission of diseases.

RolexH

Aug. 21, 2002, 06:45 AM

I knew I shouldn't tap into this thread. As some of you know (tle) I was involved int the OTHER christian thread. I am a christian I have a very strong faith. I just think that this is silly though. In my honest opinion I think Psychics can be real. We all have know we have 5 senses. 5 tangible senses, but what sense govern's our emotions? What sense governs our non tanglible factors? I beleive the 6th sense is a good name for it. I also believe some are more in "tuned" to theirs. I think animal Psychics are just ridiculous. But I wish I beleived it would be so funny to know that Rolex could tell me that he is sick of his dog food. (but my 6th sense tells me that already /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) Anyway, we could quote the Bible all day long, but we would go round and round. Just my opinion.

I interpret the Bible to say that as long as we do not put any other God's beofre us then we are in the good. ( That is not a quote /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif hahaha) So I am a christian that believes in some realms of the psychic world.

~~Lisa~~
Save a life, be an organ donor

Foxhunt4me

Aug. 21, 2002, 08:26 AM

Not to have a major theological discussion about
demominations or apologetics to the non believers,
but since I adhere to a conservative Christian viewpoint ( but usually look at the big picture ) I would like to throw a few things in that I have looked at and had discussions with pastors etc:

Points to remember:

In regard to animal communications:

If you hold to the Biblical view of creation, it appears that man as originally created was made capable of communications with animals ( among other things ) - an interesting point is the description of the conversation between Eve and the serpent indicates no surprise at the conversation, if she had not previously communicated with creatures other than her husband and the Lord this could have been a big shock I would think. Adam lived with the animals and named them I have no doubt that they could communicate. I also firmly believe that <most> of our abilities have either dissappeared since the fall , or most likely have waned to a very low level where only some individuals can still do this.

( Now I know that a few chapters only tells a limited recount of what really happened but we get the part we need )

Many people claim that humans can not talk to the dead or to other spirits. If you hold to a Biblical view, this is not the case. For sure humans can talk to the dead and spirits ( although you can not determine if you really are talking to the dead person you think you are - or is it something that also knew that person and their interests in life? ). There would be no prohibition of things that were not possible.

The issue is not <if> you can do it, it is <should> you do it.

I think that the clear direction of scripture is that spirit communication should be avoided and is wrong. The only spiritual commuincations that is encouraged is between humans and God. We should focus on our world and that relationship.

Also, just because you know of a supposed Christian that does this, does not make it acceptable. Many deeds are done by Christians and people that call themselves Christians are not proper.

However , we are all sinners and therfore not one of us on earth is to be a role model for others, thats why we had to have a living example come to Earth to show us and deliver a new covenant to live under if we choose.

Thanx

Velvet

Aug. 21, 2002, 08:37 AM

Okay, okay, I brought this back, so I should probably add something.

I wasn't a Christian throughout my youth, but am one now and this is my take on psychics (all of them).

First, I do think that most are charlatans.

Second, I do believe some are finding real information, BUT I believe it is not of God. (And since we are discussing them in reference to Christian beliefs, I'm just stating what I know from the Bible.) The Bible says that Satan has dominion over this world and that implies he knows all things that are going on and all that have happened. It says that God is the only one who knows what will come (Satan doesn't). So, that would imply that Satan is attempting to lead you astray by giving you SOME real information that is known to him, so that you will also come to him (and the psychics who are knowingly or unknowingly doing his work) for information about your future to have your fear of the future assuaged by him. This keeps you from going to God and Bible for all of you answers and needs (and having you wait upon the Lord.

It's basically smoke and mirrors by Christian standards/beliefs.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Velvet

Aug. 21, 2002, 08:41 AM

Foxhunt, I was writing my reply when your's came through. Good answer! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(It is true that we had a VERY different relationship with animals before the Fall. Most people don't realize that the lions and lambs lived in peace together--along with humans and all animals.)

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

LMH

Aug. 21, 2002, 09:00 AM

I was going to lecture you for dragging this thread up and then just sitting back and letting the games begin! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

hobson

Aug. 21, 2002, 09:05 AM

I don't know where animal communicators get their skill, but I'm pretty sure that Satan has been communicating directly with my cat Dionysus. He has an irrational, violent hatred of bread loaves that I can't otherwise explain. And he's very naughty. This morning he jumped right into my bowl of frosted flakes before I was finished eating them.

Velvet

Aug. 21, 2002, 09:17 AM

Oh, hobson, that's a given. Heck, after watching cats torment barn mice I've known for years that they were little devils! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(LMH, I decided to see if anyone else was interested before stirring the pot myself. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

tle

Aug. 21, 2002, 09:40 AM

Oh Velvet... if you wanted pot stirring, why didn't you just ask! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif BTW, are you looking forward to the premere of "Firefly" as much as I am??

It seems that several people are agreeing ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) that it seems Adam and Eve had communication with the animals before the fall of Eden. If that were the case, then why would that suddenly become a "sin"? Wouldn't that ability have to be "hard coded" into our beings to begin with and since it was not expressly forbidden (unlike the apple deal), why would it suddenly become so?

Of course I ask this half *really* intent on hearing the Christian viewpoint and half with a smirk on my face knowing that the previously mentioned "outlawing" (if you interpret it that way) of consulting psychics etc was made by the only person who lied during the fall of Eden.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Aug. 21, 2002, 09:46 AM

Well, I don't know what experiences others have had, but I have definitely had experiences which can only be attributed to communication from animals. And at times from Divine Source. If you believe, as I do, that all things come from Source (whatever name you give it) then obviously, so does the gift of communication with animals, including the human animal.

If you don't, you don't.

Does it matter? We're each on the correct step of our path at a given time, so what.

One problem with a fundamental interpretation of the Bible is, which Bible? Which translation? What did the original text in the original language say? What did the words mean at the time they were written? Which book of the Bible? What about the ones which aren't included even in the Apocrypha? Using Old Testament books, what is the Cabalistic meaning hidden in the booK? Which books are history, which societal law, which philosophical or inspired writing? The whole subject of Biblical study is much more complex than most laymen and even many ministers grasp. Which is why most Bible study courses have a great deal more to do with right think than with serious scholarly study.

Returning to our muttons, if the thought of paranormal mental powers disturbs you or contradicts your belief system, stay away from them. Simple, no?

nhwr

Aug. 21, 2002, 10:26 AM

I think this is an interesting thread... I read with interest people's responses, especially the ones that site the Bible as evidence that Christianity condemns the use of psychics. I notice all references that I saw were from the Old Testament. To my way of thinking, Christianity does not come from the Old Testament, it comes from the New Testament, you know...the part of the Bible that is about Jesus' teachings. There is alot of divirgent ideas in the Old and New Testaments. So if you want to say that there is Biblical support to the concept that Christianity rejects this idea you need to reference the New Testament.

I am not saying that I think I think animals psychics are consistant with Christian beliefs or that they are a good thing. My take on that is: Even if you can make a case that some people are psychic (which I personally doubt), there is no way you'll ever convince me that horses are. This have to be a conversation, right. The psychic listening and the horse doing the talking!? Huh? Yes, horses are incredibly sensative in ways that most people can't relate to but psychic, nope. It think it is human conceit to "mystify" traits that we don't understand. We are supposed to be the top of the brain chain, so if we don't get it must be spiritual, right. Wrong, there is another possiblity. Maybe we just don't get it. It doesn't concern me much that people want to hire communicators. I don't think it is evil, I do think it is a big waste of time and $$$.

Finally, Hobson, what kind of behavior do you expect from someone named Dionysus? Aren't you up on your Eurypedes? Be glad he settles for loaves of bread /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Pixie Dust

Aug. 21, 2002, 10:27 AM

Dr. Laura Schlessinger recently said that, as an observant Orthodox Jew, homosexuality is an abomination according to Leviticus 18:22, and cannot be condoned under any circumstances.

The following is an open letter to Dr. Laura:
Dear Dr. Laura:
Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God's Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination. End of debate.

I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws and how to follow them.

1. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

3. I know that I am allowed no contact with any woman while she is in her period of menstrual cleanliness - Lev.15:19-24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.

4. Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can't I own Canadians?

5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath. Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev.19:27. How should they die?

9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

Your devoted disciple and adoring fan.
Tony

Don't squat with your spurs on
- A Cowboy's Guide to Life

Pixie Dust

Aug. 21, 2002, 10:34 AM

As said before, the problem with interpreting the bible literally is that it cannot possibly followed. There are contradictions; a zillion translations. And who decides which parts of the bible to follow? Some man, I'm sure. I'm not saying that there aren't useful stories and good teachings in there, but I see it as a "Great Book" not the word of God.

I see "God" as a word to describe the power within the human race. The power of love and the power of prayer. And this power is within all religions and all people, including atheists if they chose to use it. So in my opionion, annimal communication is a part of that power.

Don't squat with your spurs on
- A Cowboy's Guide to Life

HN73

Aug. 21, 2002, 10:36 AM

OMG -- that is hysterical!

****Time flies... after you hit the snooze button.****

Velvet

Aug. 21, 2002, 11:02 AM

Hey, we are not out here to convert any of you...unless you want to be converted. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I was once a PITA to every Christian I ever met and argued every point into the ground. It's an old argument that's been going on since Jesus walked this planet. (And He was a Rabbi, so there are still very strong ties to the Old Testament, and He even said we should not forget or throw out the Old Testament.)

What it all comes down to is faith.

Oh, and for all who are arguing most vehemently out here I just have one thing for you to chew on. You do know that most Christians believe those that argue most loudly are those that God is currently working the hardest on to convert to being a believer, don't you? /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now, back to horse psychics. Someone needs to look at him as hard as those looking at John Edwards have been lately. I read some really interesting articles on how he operates the show--the stuff we don't see when it's all cut and showed on TV. I also saw a college veterinary program do a test on an animal psychic and she consistantly failed. It was interesting. (And I believe it was on the Discover Channel. (?) )

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

lilblackhorse

Aug. 21, 2002, 11:34 AM

but all I can think of is the bumper sticker redux....

If you don't like animal communication, DON'T HAVE ONE

The gene pool could use a little chlorine.

Daydream Believer

Aug. 21, 2002, 11:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by bgoosewood:
As said before, the problem with interpreting the bible literally is that it cannot possibly followed. There are contradictions; a zillion translations. And who decides which parts of the bible to follow? Some man, I'm sure. I'm not saying that there aren't useful stories and good teachings in there, but I see it as a "Great Book" not the word of God.

I see "God" as a word to describe the power within the human race. The power of love and the power of prayer. And this power is within all religions and all people, including atheists if they chose to use it. So in my opionion, annimal communication is a part of that power.

Don't squat with your spurs on
- A Cowboy's Guide to Life<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said! My sentiments as well!

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

janf

Aug. 21, 2002, 11:43 AM

I'm a skeptic at heart, so I can't say I'm a believer in either Christianity or Animal psychics. I did have a friend call once for "entertainment purposes only" and it was a little startling. He didn't "speak" to the horse. It was all about images and impressions. I listened and she never gave him any info other than the horses name and sex. He gave her the horses age within 1 yr ( a pretty amazing feat in and of itself), and decribed a series of sights - tumbleweeds, mountains, a large stone wall, an orange, the heat, etc. This woman had recently moved from Palmdale CA and trailered the horse through the desert and mountains to FL herself. The entire front of her new home was made of stone and she had just bought him a brand new (orange) basketball to play with. It made me say Hmmmmmm....

Snowbird

Aug. 21, 2002, 11:50 AM

Jesus was a Jew came for Judaism to reform it of it's bad ways by teaching the good ways. He was a Rabbi which is a teacher. Acttually the very first schism in Christianity was whether or not you had to be a jew first before you became baptized.

There is serious debate as to whether Jesus when he returns will be a Jew or a Christian? On the other hand we have Ishmael who actually was the first born son of Abraham and also a Jew because the child in those days was the same religion as the father not the mother.

So in reality all three religions are the same Jewish religion but they are having a sibling rivalry spat.

nhwr

Aug. 21, 2002, 11:57 AM

I will admit it, I am not a "Christian", I was raised and educated as a Catholic. I have been to church in over 25 years. I would not characterize myself as a Christian. My beliefs are not neceesarily the point, however.

Bgoosewood, your open letter to Dr. Laura is entirely entirely on point for followers of the Old Testament, people of the Jewish faith (like Dr. Laura) and others. Leviticus and Deuteronomy (sp?) are the usual example used as coronerstones for these types of arguements. But isn't Christianity supposed to be about the teaching of Christ? I haven't read anything from Matthew, Mark, Luke, James or Paul regarding this subject. Their input would surely be more relevent on the Christian viewpoint.

It is interesting to me that for contentious subjects like spiritualism, woman's right or homosexually, the Chrisitian argruement is usually derived from ancient and obscure books of the Old Testament. Why is that? We know that frquently the Old Testament and New Testment are frequent at odds with each other (The eye for an eye vs Turn the other cheek philosphies being the most obvious difference of opinion). Is it when there is nothing in the New Testament that we harken back to the old guys, even though we know they may not really apply? Or what?

I am not trying to be insulting or provocative here, I am really curious.

EvntRydr

Aug. 21, 2002, 12:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
Psychics smack of messages from the dead and fortune telling both taboo. Reading an animal's mind and using telepathy smack of witchcraft and evil spirits. Remember if you're special then that can make you guilty of pride. .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe what Snowbird says is true. And for that reason I don't believe you can talk to the dead. However, who is to say that animals don't talk in a language that everyone has to learn. Like German or English or Spanish? Why is it that them talking to us isn't possibly just another way that God has given them to communicate that we can or cannot learn to use? I mean thats my take on things.

Why wouldn't God have given us a way to communicate w/the 'beasts of the field' that he gave us to live with?

"Panic, chaos, disorder... my job here is done."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"We came, we rode, we kicked ass." Right Moo?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Proud Member of the Plain Bay Tb subsidiary

Pixie Dust

Aug. 21, 2002, 12:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by nhwr:

Bgoosewood, your open letter to Dr. Laura is entirely entirely on point for followers of the Old Testament, people of the Jewish faith (like Dr. Laura) and others. Leviticus and Deuteronomy (sp?) are the usual example used as coronerstones for these types of arguements. But isn't Christianity supposed to be about the teaching of Christ? I haven't read anything from Matthew, Mark, Luke, James or Paul regarding this subject. Their input would surely be more relevent on the Christian viewpoint.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OH, no, dear me, I could never come up with something that clever! Someone else wrote it, and it was Jewish. It was a joke, and just meant to point out the inconsistencies in the bible. Are there none in the new testament?

Don't squat with your spurs on
- A Cowboy's Guide to Life

janf

Aug. 21, 2002, 01:03 PM

The letter to Dr Laura sounds very much like a script from West Wing. There was a scene several seasons ago, where the president went off on an ultra conservative radio/tv personality who was obviously based on Dr Laura. I recognize some of those statements word for word from the show. It was one of my favorites! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

LMH

Aug. 21, 2002, 01:07 PM

Thank you for your clarification-I feeld better now /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif...and yes you are correct-the point I have said over and over but seems to get lost /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I am refering to a traditional or conservative perspective.....

HOWEVER-I have found all of the recent posts very interesting---this is exactly the sort of discussion I was looking for-not judgmental just thought provoking. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

mwalshe

Aug. 21, 2002, 01:11 PM

The type of rules in Leviticus I've actually studied from an evolutionary standpoint before. Most old tribes had similar rules and they were designed to keep a population healthy ie don't eat shellfish (it often poisoins the unwary) don't keep pigs (there are a lot of diseases we can catch from pigs) don't sleep around (STDs) incest is forbidden etc. etc.

The ones about wives obeying their husbands and the like may simply have been thrown in there for good measure by whoever wrote the rules though /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Snowbird

Aug. 21, 2002, 02:14 PM

I believe in telepathy, and I think an owner or even a caretaker does get messages from horses if they are in trouble. But, that's more like a one syllable, limited vocabulary like help! I'm hurt! I'm hungry.

I think we can also tell if they're happy or feeling sick. But, I don't think the horse is going to have a long distance phone call with some stranger and tell them all about their old stablemates, what specifically hurts, where and why!

For goodness sake! even most people can't do that!

Daydream Believer

Aug. 21, 2002, 06:20 PM

If it makes any difference to tell you, the animal communicator that I work with is a very spiritual and religious person. She would probably be quite horrified to be labeled by anyone as evil because of her natural talent. I know for a fact that she uses her gift to help people as well as animals. She has worked with people in comas and autistic children for instance trying to bring them out of the state they are in and to make contact with some part of them. She sure sounds like a terrible person doesn't she? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif She donates all the money she makes in her consultations to a not-for-profit foundations to care for homeless animals. She is definitely not rich or making a killing off of us marks.

Someone is probably going to tell me now who sneaky the devil is or something...SIGH. I think one of the ugliest aspects of fundamentalists of any faith is the narrow mindedness that comes with such strong beliefs. I've been told by a Southern Baptist once that I was going to Hell and so was everyone else who wasn't a Southern Baptist. I informed that person that I would happily go to the opposite place that they were going to! Can you imagine heaven with only one type of narrow minded group of people in it? Can you imagine heaven without animals? Most Christians do not believe that animals have souls and can't go to heaven. To me that would be Hell.

I'm not trying to be inflamatory or to make fun of your beliefs whatever they are...I just want to try and get you to see what we are saying with an open mind. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

PeriwinkleBlue

Aug. 21, 2002, 06:31 PM

Someone once proved to me from the Bible that there WILL be horses in heaven. Unfortunately, I can't find the verse off the top of my head. Still, it's given me great comfort over the years.
And if there are horses, why not cats, dogs, etc.? I do believe that animals have souls, and that we will be re-united with them in Heaven.
That keeps me going when I lose a pet.

******************

"Because he dodges bullets, Avi!!"

LMH

Aug. 21, 2002, 07:11 PM

Here is a blip I found on a view of animals and souls-whether ones chooses to accept it or not is up to them-just an interesting read...I have often struggled with that question myself. I have no idea what the background is of the person that wrote this but here is one position:

Animals have a soul in the sense that they possess life. A common Hebrew word translated life (soul) is nephesh. Nephesh is used for the life or breath of both animals and man (Gen. 1: 20, 30; 19: 17). Life is that state that is the opposite of death. It is a state of animation, breathing, and awareness. Men and animals alike possess a soul in the sense of breath (nephesh). However, in the sense of possessing a part or element that lives forever, as man possesses, animals do not possess an eternal spirit (cp. Matt. 25: 46). The animal simply and totally returns to the dust, the spirit of man continues to exist (Eccl. 3: 21, cp. 12: 7).

The fact that animals do not possess an eternal soul in the sense that man does, does not de-emphasize their value as companions to man. Pets can and do become an important part in the lives of millions. Also, in man's charge over the animal kingdom, it behooves man to protect and not abuse the animals (Gen. 1: 26-28).

There was another article written by someone in the Catholic church that gave every argument on why animal DO have souls-it had references to the Pope's position, etc....

SO-I guess that all just depends are where you sit on the religious spectrum as well.

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

[This message was edited by LMH on Aug. 21, 2002 at 10:35 PM.]

LMH

Aug. 21, 2002, 07:32 PM

I think alot of Christians today get the bad rap of being called narrow minded---the problem is there are many "Bible beaters" out there that sort of give Christianity a bad name by making judgments as the one Daydream Believer shared.

I think the bigger question here-which maybe explains why this thread is going on and on is what exactly one means when they say they are "Christian"-that is not a catch all religion as seems to have become.

The first basic to being "Christian" as opposed to some that just believes in "God" involves believing the teachings of the Bible-now they are up for interpretation according to most people, but I find it difficult to understand how someone can be a Christian and dismiss the Bible....you can believe in a higher being and dismiss the Bible but that doesn't make you Christian. Does that make sense?

Now if you carry this a step further and claim to be Christian that pretty much means you believe that Jesus was the Messiah, the Son of God---if you don't believe that then again, you may be "relgious" but not Christian-Does THAT make sense?

So if you get that far and you believe in Jesus, you have to believe in HIS teachings, which have been recorded in the Bible---thus all this requires a reading and education on the Bible---without this basic understanding, the argument becomes sort of silly and pointless.

So if you get that far, you might find if you read the Bible that Jesus warns of false prophets and spiritualists that will try turn trust and faith in God to trust and faith in man---man will search for answers to the unknowns from man and not God----he evens warns that many will do this in the name of God! So that is where all this comes from.....

I was wondering from the beginning where in the Bible it allows for this-from everything 'I' have read, it warns against it---but then again I start by saying I believe in the teachings of the Bible....if you don't well then...it is a whole nuther topic.

There are "religious" leaders or people that accept pieces and parts of the Bible-they are religious (again) but I am not sure that is a Christian in the true sense of the word.

Am I getting anywhere with this or just rambling?

NOW that doesn't mean it isn't interesting to hear why someone personally believes in psychics or whatever-but that isn't from a Christian standpoint.....it can be 'religious' or spiritual however.

AND for that matter we could still take this further---I dare say anyone practicing the religion of Judaism would have a difficult time with this as well, considering many of the verses I did put on her were from the OT....but that opens a whole NEW can of worms because not all Jews are of a conservative persuasion which means many of THEM would say the OT is up for interpretation.

Phew----6 pages later and maybe this makes more sense.

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

Snowbird

Aug. 21, 2002, 07:33 PM

I have to disappoint you about the theological view, but I agree with you wholeheartedly. I will not believe that God created these wonderful four legged creatures who take care of us and love unconditionally and that he would not accept them in heaven wherever and whatever that may be.

But, when I was a wee little girl and I was in the confessional confessing my little girls sins to the priest he told me that there were no animals in heaven. I argued with him that if that were so, then I didn't want to go to heaven, I wanted to go wherever they were staying.

Need I say I was severely chastised, my mother was called and I was treated as a heretic in a state of sin.

So, theologically I doubt there is any evidence of animals in heaven, and heaven is a christian invention along with purgatory and hell. I on the other hand believe in a God who loves all his creatures and welcomes them for their good deeds as he does us, if we have never deliberately done an evil hurtful thing to any other creature.

I believe in telepathy, I do not believe in the psychic abilities of people to transpose animal thoughts into the human context. I believe animals are pure because they are not complicated or malicious and those that are malicious will not reach God. I believe in their simplicity and therefore the complex sub-conscious analysis is not in keeping with their character.

I believe in the possibility that misguided and misinformed people can do things from every good intention and yet be wrong. I don't think it makes them witches or devils because I don't believe there are such things. We create our own devils and our own misery from our own brain.

If you read the philosophies of all peoples, the philosophy is not wrong and it is never evil. It is us who make evil when we become so fanatic in our beliefs that there is not room for any other idea. That defiles the gift of knowledge we were given by God.

Personally, after 74 years of serious contemplation and study of existentialism I believe that this is purgatory. That's why some of the young leave early. They are blessed because they must have been very good wherever we came from, and if you live to be 125 you must have been either really bad or really stupid where we all came from.

And, when we are done here in purgatory there is another place we go if we've learned and if we've not learned then either we have to come back and do it over or we go to nonthingness.

I think in many languages and with many parables that is what all of the great teachers have tried to tell us.

So to this issue, psychics are not evil or demons but simply still guilty of a false pride that somehow they know more and are better than us commoners who lack their talent. It's like we don't always understand the difference between a dream that is in our head and the real world when we wake up.

Equines, canines and felines are all a great gift to us to make our passage through this world a little better and easier and to teach us to be a little wiser.

LMH

Aug. 21, 2002, 07:37 PM

Just one little clarification-Catholics not all Christians get the credit for purgatory /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

Snowbird

Aug. 21, 2002, 07:48 PM

Luther and his protest against the man-god in the form of the pope did not preach purgatory. I can remember when they changed the rules and you didn't go to purgatory if you died without confession after eating meat on Friday; in my own personal way asking if that meant that all those stuck in purgatory got to leave.

I was a real problem child, I admit. I also asked if when you earned indulgences for saying certain prayer if you bank them as a deposit against what you might do wrong. I remember in the prayer books there were like 25 indulgences for the Hail Mary etc. Faith means to some not to ask questions.

armandh

Aug. 22, 2002, 05:22 AM

and fatten your own

religion v AC

Aug. 22, 2002, 07:17 AM

I am a born again christian who stumbled across this thread this morning and found it very interesting. I used an animal communicator some time ago and yes she did tell me a lot of things about my horse that she had no way of knowing. My personal position on it now is that I would not do it again (and shouldn't have done it in the first place) as it does come in conflict with what my "guide to life", aka the bible, tells me is true and what is false.

Logic demands that there can be no "good" in this world without the counterpart of "evil". The bible teaches that there are human beings and spirit beings in this world representing both sides.

I believe that there are many well meaning people with commnuication/psychic gifts who are being used by spirits they don't understand. So my advice is to be careful. I think that if God wanted us to know what our horses were thinking he'd have made us all psychic.

Most good con men appear to be your best friends at first and for evil spirit beings it's no different. By telling us what we want to hear they can convince us of what is not true and fianlly move on to robbing us of our souls. Our horses make us vulnerable to this trap.

If want to get a great perspective on this and other topics concerning good and evil pick up "The Late Great Planet Earth" or "Earth: The Final Chapter" (more recent) by Hal Lindsey. They are books that make you think about what might be really behind some of today's headlines and phenomenon.

Pixie Dust

Aug. 22, 2002, 07:39 AM

OK, does that mean that there are very slow children that are playing, or does it mean slow down and watch out for the children who are playing....or maybe it means slow children should play or maybe play is a noun like a "play" that could really change things..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Don't squat with your spurs on
- A Cowboy's Guide to Life

Daydream Believer

Aug. 22, 2002, 07:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KO:
I think that if God wanted us to know what our horses were thinking he'd have made us all psychic.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe he did and most of us just don't know how to listen anymore. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

tle

Aug. 22, 2002, 07:52 AM

Ditto what Daydream said. How else do you explain how Eve was able to speak to the serpent?

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Velvet

Aug. 22, 2002, 07:54 AM

Because, the snake was like the talking ass. It was able to speak in our language. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Simple, no?

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

hobson

Aug. 22, 2002, 07:58 AM

Does this mean that God is OK with animals who speak human languages, a la Mr Ed? But we just can't talk back?

Velvet

Aug. 22, 2002, 08:00 AM

Actually, with the ass one person was communicating with it. As for the snake speaking, that was the Devil taking on the form of a snake.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Daydream Believer

Aug. 22, 2002, 08:07 AM

Just curious...what's your take on the great apes that have learned human sign language? Is that evil or OK? I think it has definitely narrowed the gap between humans and animals.

Honestly, I believe we are all telepathic and psychic to a certain degree and some of us are more so than others. I believe we have always been this way since the beginning. Superstition, culture and religious dogma over the years have taught us to surpress this and discourage it in our children. Many primitive cultures have animal totems and talk to the animals such as native americans would. It's part of their spiritual beliefs and very normal to them.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

SillyHorse

Aug. 22, 2002, 08:37 AM

Originally posted by KO:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Logic demands that there can be no "good" in this world without the counterpart of "evil".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe YOUR logic, but not mine!

SillyHorse
~ Even on a fast machine, an infinite loop takes a while to run.

Aug. 22, 2002, 10:35 AM

If those who have psychic gifts are to be accused of the sin of pride,
what about:
- priests/ministers who claim a "call" from God
- musicians, writers, artists whose talents far exceed the general populace
- athletes including horsemen ditto
- doctors including such greats as Albert Schweitzer, Christian Barnard and Jonas Salk
- philosophical thinkers including some quoted in this thread
etc. etc.

Is anyone who has a gift in greater degree or not found in most people prideful, therefore evil?
Are we all to conform to the Lowest Common Denominator lest we excel over the general herd?
Or is that translation/interpretation a means of priestly control? Remember, in the not-so-long-ago Middle Ages, only priests were even expected or allowed to read and write. Kept control nicely in the hands of the church.

Better not ride for that blue ribbon, folks - you'll be guilty of the sin of pride!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Snowbird

Aug. 22, 2002, 04:02 PM

You know there is a difference between trying to be the best you can and learning in academics, science, art, sport and even music meant to inspire the soul.

We are meant to try to be best, but someone who claims to have a special talent like speaking with the dead, or speaking to the animals that is not a talent within the normal realm. It's an attempt to be special without learning just a gift which is not given to everyone.

Actually, because so few people were literate in the Middle Ages it gave birth to the arts. The great painters of those days told stories that were inspirational and could communicate with those who could not read or even hear. This also why prehistoric man painted his caves. Music did the same thing for those who could see.

I don't believe the clergy when they said they felt a "calling" meant that God spoke to them personally, but rather that just as some were called to be painters and sculptors, or musicians an tale carriers repeating and embellishing history, or teachers etc. They simply were willing to spend their years studying a theology just as the monks of the Buddha gave up their life as regular people to study the teachings of Buddha.

By the way those who do claim such like the preacher in Jonestown and some other cultists are guilty of pride.

There is no one path to eternity, heaven or many other terms used by many religions. Jesus said my father's house has many doors.

believing that God has given you something he never

tle

Aug. 22, 2002, 07:12 PM

But Snowbird...

1) What is normal? "not a talent within the normal realm" I agree with PT... is Michael Jordan's talent "normal"?

2) If a person has this "gift", then why should they ignore it? If they *can* (just at Michael Jordan *can*), why is it bad to further develop this talent?

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Snowbird

Aug. 22, 2002, 07:52 PM

I could have been a concert pianist if I had been willing to play the piano for 5/6 hours a day. But, I just couldn't do that! I was willing to sit and paint for 24 hours a day.

Calling involves the use of our 5 senses and what body and brain we were granted at birth. When I went to school the Nuns said you don't get credit for being smart because you got extra and someone got shorted so you owe them part of your ability.

But, when you are talking about a 6th sense then you are talking about an unknown quantity of what? Telepathy, yes because this is within the realm of possibility for the activity of communication from brain to brain. Look at it as if you were telepathic would you understand the thoughts of a russian person in english or in russian?

They tested dogs who they believed were telepathic with their owners and found out that statistically it was not a valid hypothesis. In a control situation, it just didn't work.

But, there are dogs who recognize the onset of a epeleptic seizure. The electricity generated by the brain changes and they can sense that.

Telepathic thoughts are in pictures between two parties, or it can be the energy left behind by a violent act.

Look if we lived in a 2 dimensional world there would be no up and down. We would live on a line with no height. To us then anything that existed above us would be strange and uncomprehensible.

This is a 3 dimensional world we live with length width and height. But, motion and time the fourth dimension are strange. When you travel down a road the village up ahead seems to grow in size. It isn't growing but it seems to grow and then it shrinks as you leave.

So there are things left behind by a motion and there can be things that become visible because of motion. There can be things that leave behind a trail in time like the way the air is disturbed by a jet plane but we can't see the path that the plane will take before it leaves. This simply put the whole theory of relativity.

However, in all the physical laws of this world we already know and of and all the potential laws to be established there is nothing that says there is a way to communicate with an animal that has no language of it's own unless you can interpret barks and snorts or whinnies nor can you receive messages from a russian in english. The russian thinks in russian and you think in english.

This is the root of that segment of religions that believe in the speaking in tongues, they believe they can communicate with those past in their own languages. That has also been proved by experiments and accidents wwhere someone has damaged their brain and where they knew many languages perhaps only the segement for latin was left in tact. But, no one has shown any possibility that we could speak in a foreign language which we never knew.

They are mapping the brain and they are learning more everyday about how the brain works and what parts are involved with each of our human capacities. But, no where can you translate the kind of sign language that animals have into an english interpretation of some subliminal instinct.

This is more like the Freudian ideas of wish fulfilment. We would like to give the animals personalities and knowledge that was compatible with our own, that's not who they are. We want to believe that someone can tell us what we want to know, that doesn't make it so.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result...Albert Einstein<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Aug. 22, 2002 at 11:24 PM.]

tle

Aug. 23, 2002, 05:34 AM

Well, all I guess there is left to say is that you have your beliefs and I have mine... and neither is changing the other. Enjoy.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

armandh

Aug. 23, 2002, 08:25 AM

are the horses telling us anything really? I dont think it is any more than learned response on the part of the horse and self delusion on the part of those who attribute higher meaning to it.

Aug. 23, 2002, 08:28 AM

What limitations you place on your world!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Look if we lived in a 2 dimensional world there would be no up and down. We would live on a line with no height. To us then anything that existed above us would be strange and uncomprehensible.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That paragraph describes to me your POV. You see, you DO live in a limited world and anything which isn't within the limitations set by what you have been taught - maybe by that nun who tried to make you feel bad about being smart - is strange and incomprehensible, so it is labelled "evil."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> However, in all the physical laws of this world we already know and of and all the potential laws to be established <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I do understand basic physics. But do you really think we already know all the potential discoveries yet to be made? HOW???? Now, to me, THAT's hubris.

Can't you accept that possibly others have abilities that you don't understand because they don't fall within the scope of your experience?

Your beliefs are your beliefs, and I certainly respect your right to them. But what limitations they set on the potential not only of humans and other animals, but of Divine Source!

nhwr

Aug. 23, 2002, 08:39 AM

I think that some people are more sensative to their environment and better at interpreting nonverbal input than other people. This doesn't make them psychic, they are just better users of the information that is there for any one to see and use. That is not psychic ability though. I think it is egotistical that assume that there is something mystical about things we don't understand... I mean just listen to the term .... supernatural. If we can't readily analyze what is happening is must be really special. Yeah, right! I think anyone can learn to be a better observer and interpreter of their environment if they just take the time. But I am too busy just trying to get the time to spend with my horse. I think the best thing for her emotional welll being is a full belly and an extra bag or two of shavings in her pen.

My take on the religous thing is, Yes there are biblical restrictions on this type of activity, but these aren't Christian restrictions. I am not a scholar of the Bible by any means, but I have never heard anyone state that Christ made any admonishments regarding this. So it is not inconsistant with Christianity, IMO.

nhwr

Aug. 23, 2002, 08:57 AM

Can't you accept that possibly others have abilities that you don't understand because they don't fall within the scope of your experience?

I think you ought to consider that she probably does accept that possibility, but that does not mean she calls it psychic or paranormal. She has another name for it. So what? To belittle those who don't accept your point of view sounds more like hubris to me.

Aug. 23, 2002, 09:07 AM

I'm not belittling Snowbird's right to her beliefs - I will fight to the death to defend anyone's right to his or her own opinions.

Snowbird made her position quite clear as to abilities exceeding the 5 physical senses. I disagree with her position. That's not hubris, but honest disagreement.

Hope that clears things up!

Daydream Believer

Aug. 23, 2002, 09:30 AM

Nobody ever answered my question about the great apes communicating with us using human sign language. They are the only animals capable of making those gestures obviously. Are they sentient? Does the Bible and it's teaching allow for that in anything other than human beings? I'm really curious what the Christian take on this is. Thanks.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

Snowbird

Aug. 23, 2002, 09:35 AM

Mankind has credited everything they did not understand to the supernatural in one way or another.

Because we don't understand doesn't make it true that it's supernatural. Yes, there are observant people with no malice who use what we might call intuition to say what people would like or need to hear. Gypsies have known that for 5000 years.

We have no definition for the so-called sixth sense just as we have no definition for the fourth dimension or the fifth and sixth for that matter.

Reading tea leaves or peering into a crystal ball make more sense that someone hundreds of miles away having any idea what your horse in your barn and who's not on the telephone with you is thinking in horse language and then translating it into english.

Velvet

Aug. 23, 2002, 10:38 AM

From what I recall of all the studies being performed on apes using sign language, the jury is still out on whether or not they are actively using it in a way that implies thoughtful language skills, or just in the old "monkey-see, monkey-do" way.

They may know the sign for something, even a dog knows that if he goes to the door and barks politely or scratches softly, someone will let him out. They are not sure if the animals are putting the signs together just to please us, and if they are somehow picking up clues from our body language.

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Policy of Truth

Aug. 23, 2002, 10:48 AM

Snowbird, if you are going to quote my savior, please do it right:

"There is no one path to eternity, heaven or many other terms used by many religions. Jesus said my father's house has many doors."

He said in my Father's house there are many ROOMS. Not doors. He did say, "I am the way, the truth and the light, and nobody comes to the Father except through me." END OF DISCUSSION.

Daydream Believer

Aug. 23, 2002, 10:53 AM

Thanks Velvet...I appreciate your answer.

I remember seeing a program on TV about one of the gorillas I think it was. The handler was describing a communication that she'd had with the gorilla. She said that while she was working there, she was pregnant and had a miscarraige that caused her to miss coming in for a week or so. When she did return to work with the ape again, the ape was put out that she had not come and was giving her the cold shoulder. She said that she explained to the ape in signs that her baby had died to explain why she'd been gone. The ape who had also lost a baby signed "SAD" which is a tear-running-down-your-cheek motion. What do you think? Sounds like she understood the meaning of loss and even grief to me.

I know I'm off topic here sort of but I think it's relevant since it's animals and their ability to communicate and understand their feelings that we're discussing.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

Velvet

Aug. 23, 2002, 11:03 AM

That's the problem, isn't it? We do often have very anthropomorphic was of looking at them, don't we? I mean, I've often ascribed human feelings to a horse or other pet, but am I right?

In the case you described, was it wishful thinking on her part? Or was it that the woman had made faces before and shown the sign for sad and when she was with the gorilla her face looked "sad" and the gorilla made the sign?

I do know that animals have thoughts and feelings, I'm just not sure if they actively think about them the way we do. I tend to think they are much more reactionary and don't ascribe feelings to us, but rather read what they see in front of them and interpret it by past rewarded behavior. Meaning, if I look a certain way and ask my horse to nod his head when I make that face, and reward that action with a treat, it's all just conditioned response. Heck, we are trained in conditional response by babies and by our animals behaviors, but we go beyond that and do more interpretation based on projection, etc.

Okay, I must stop now. I have work today and although I love talking about this stuff, it's not going to pay the bills that allow my horse to work a handful of hours each week and live the rest as leisure time. Wait a minute...maybe animals ARE smarter than we are!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's all about ME, ME, ME!!! (The only signature worthy of a real DQ.)

Daydream Believer

Aug. 23, 2002, 11:08 AM

Thanks for your opinion Velvet.

That's a good point about her mimicking sadness perhaps or picking it up from the lady.

Food for thought isn't it?

I've got work to do to. Later. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

Aug. 23, 2002, 11:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Reading tea leaves or peering into a crystal ball make more sense that someone hundreds of miles away having any idea what your horse in your barn and who's not on the telephone with you is thinking in horse language and then translating it into english. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As stated, you choose the limits on your universe. I choose to believe that through [God/Goddess/Divine Source] all things are possible. Makes for a more interesting world IMO, though certainly a less carefully defined one.

We two old curmudgeons, one on her mountain and one in her valley, would certainly get along just fine once we agreed to disagree on this one unproveable issue, no? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm happy to have read through this thread. I was raised in a Christian church, though thankfully not one which was in any sense fundamentalist. And I had a mother who was well-versed in the teachings of most great thinkers from Aristotle, Swedenborg, Kant, Kierkegaard, Ram Dass, Lao-Tze, de Chardin, Bornhoffer et al. So the teaching was far from limited. At times, since the society where I live tends to be hard on anyone perceived as "different" I've thought of trotting off to church just to fit in. Thank you all for making it clear just how impossible that would be! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Great discussion, though... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

lauriep

Aug. 23, 2002, 11:38 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Because we don't understand doesn't make it true that it's supernatural. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
this explains the existence of Christianity and all other religions.

People didn't understand the great natural happenings all around them, so made up stories and gods to explain them. Parables, fables, fairy tales, "bibles", perhaps they all serve the same purpose.

And I also believe that there are people who can perceive what an animal is feeling, moreso than the average person. But I don't think that extends to long distance conversations!

Laurie

tle

Aug. 23, 2002, 11:40 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Because we don't understand doesn't make it true that it's supernatural. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just as it doesn't make it NOT true.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Snowbird

Aug. 23, 2002, 01:31 PM

We'd certainly liven it up a lot. I think we have agreed to disagree and we can also agree on many more things than we disagree.

As to church and belonging there we do agree.

Policy of Truth

Aug. 23, 2002, 01:32 PM

We will sit in our rocking chairs and sip lemonade, while appreciating God's spectacular creation of the horse!

nhwr

Aug. 23, 2002, 01:34 PM

"Because we don't understand doesn't make it true that it's supernatural.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Just as it doesn't make it NOT true."

The difference some people can just say they don't understand it, they don't have to define it. How can you name, categorize and/or define what you don' understand?

Yes anything is possible, but many things are improbable. A completely open mind can contain no arguement. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Snowbird

Aug. 23, 2002, 01:50 PM

I just couldn't resist the temptation

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>A completely open mind can contain no arguement. [wink] <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a purist I have to say that's because it goes in one ear and out the other in one motion and nothing sticks between.

Forgive, me the temptation was uncontollable.

As to other comments it is true that it is possible that nothing is impossible. It is also true that all of the Universe is guided by rules. Some may be to us an optical illusion and not true.

When you travel in a car and look out the side window, it appears that the lower ground is moving one way and the upper ground is moving the other way. Your eyes tell you this is so, but is it so?