PDA

View Full Version : Rules & Rule Proposal discussion!! (was: How about a de-caffinated conversation) (still long)



tle
Oct. 3, 2002, 12:31 PM
Noting Reed's comment to my previous thread about rule changes, how about a *calm* discussion on rule changes. I promise I'll be calm...(er). /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Here are a few and my interpretation (please correct me if I'm wrong). All proposed rule changes are available in PDF format from the USA Eq website. (any proposal I list where I don't list who proposed it came from the Eventing Committee and Roger Haller).

Proposal 190-02 (proposed effective date 12/1/02) seems to take any errors in the dressage test and subtract them BEFORE dividing AND gives a new way to score. First, if adding in errors (or subtracting in this case) before dividing by the total possible points instead of after... wouldn't that make LESS of an impact on the score? Also the way the scoring seems to be proposed is pretty simple actually.... total good marks minus error divided by total possible multiplied by 100 gives you the percentage for that judge. To get penalties, that percentage (or an average over the number of judges) is simply subtracted from 100. EGADS! So instead of 156 good marks on a 200 point test being a 39 (156/200 * 100 * .5) it's a 22!!!! (156/200 * 100 subtracted from 100). Good god I might be able to break 40 afterall! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Is this a good thing?

Proposal 029-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) imposes elimination at the discretion of the ground jury for anyone who fails to report to the steward for inspection of saddlery (proposed by Canterlope).

Proposal 070-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) discusses dressage saddlery requirements. This proposal suggests the addition of a bitless bridle be added to approved dressage tack, as well as elimination of the noseband requirement. Proposed by Sarah Gretchell.

Proposal 001-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) allows for the use of a dressage whip at any time while on the flat, including during the dressage test. Proposed by Joan Fleser.

Proposal 240-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) requires numbers to be worn at any time the horse is out of his stall or vehicle while on the grounds after 3:00pm of the day prior to the start of the competition. This falls into line with current FEI rules. It also states that repeat offenders "shall incur a fine of $50" at the discretion of the Ground Jury.

Proposal 187-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) requires ASTM/SEI approved (or surpassed) helmets for all jumping phases... with harness secured of course.

Proposal 244-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) changes the speeds as well as distances and number of obstacles (offering more of a range) for XC. Specifically it changes OT and adds the speed for Speed Faults. Ie: Novice goes to OT Speed of 400 and Speed Faults at 470. Training goes to OT Speed of 470 and Speed Fault Speed of 520. Evidently this is intended to allow people to school a lower course at the higher speed. But it also effectively makes all N and T courses harder since it has upped the OT Speed (currently 350 and 400 respectively). I thought Speed was a *problem*... this proposal seems to not see that fact... or am I missing something??

Proposal 195-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) changes the penalties given in SJ. Dropping a rail would go from 5 to 4. First disobedience would go from 10 to 4 (can I say YUCK! a stop should be MORE than a careless toe!) and GULP! a 2nd disobedience would be ELIMINATION! Yep, no more 3 stops... you only get 1 "gimme" on the whole test... 2nd time and you're out! In addition, a fall of rider goes from 30 to a measly 8 points. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Under Intent of Proposal it states that this brings it to "conform to 2002 FEI changes"... has anyone seen these??

Proposal 192-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) goes back to the distinction between a stop at an obstacle with height and one without... allowing a standing jump at one without height. YEA!

Last one... for now...

Proposal 241-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) deals with dress rules for horse trials. A WHOLE bunch is proposed to change here!! Specifically the following 2 points:

1. "A body protecting vest must be worn in teh cross-country and jumping tests... should pass or surpass the current ASTM standard F1937, certified by the Safety Equipment Institute." First, it says nothing about warmup. Second, EW! Wearing a vest in SJ??? *blech* And Third, what's with the "should" verbage? Either they write an effective rule or leave it alone!

2. "Lighweight sportwear is appropriate for dressage, cross-country and jumping at Tests and Horse Trials. Long or short-sleeved shirts, with collars but without neckwear, breeches and boots, or jodhpurs and jodhpur boots, are required. STable, team or club colors are permitted. Chaps and leggings are not allowed, but half chaps and jodhpur boots may be permitted under special circumstances. In the event of inclement weather, appropriate outerwear including rain gear is permitted. Hunting dress or uniforms may be worn but they are not required at any Test or Horse Trial. Three-Day Events, which are conducted under FEI rules, still require hunting dress or uniforms in the dressage and jumping tests." /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif and may I also say EWW!!!! I can just see it now... ponies in pink, black horses in dressage being ridden with black breeches and boots, neon helmet covers back in SJ. BLECH!!! No offense to endurance, but I don't care to see that look in a dressage arena!! OMG!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Edited to change title per request

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[This message was edited by tle on Oct. 09, 2002 at 08:59 AM.]

tle
Oct. 3, 2002, 12:31 PM
Noting Reed's comment to my previous thread about rule changes, how about a *calm* discussion on rule changes. I promise I'll be calm...(er). /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Here are a few and my interpretation (please correct me if I'm wrong). All proposed rule changes are available in PDF format from the USA Eq website. (any proposal I list where I don't list who proposed it came from the Eventing Committee and Roger Haller).

Proposal 190-02 (proposed effective date 12/1/02) seems to take any errors in the dressage test and subtract them BEFORE dividing AND gives a new way to score. First, if adding in errors (or subtracting in this case) before dividing by the total possible points instead of after... wouldn't that make LESS of an impact on the score? Also the way the scoring seems to be proposed is pretty simple actually.... total good marks minus error divided by total possible multiplied by 100 gives you the percentage for that judge. To get penalties, that percentage (or an average over the number of judges) is simply subtracted from 100. EGADS! So instead of 156 good marks on a 200 point test being a 39 (156/200 * 100 * .5) it's a 22!!!! (156/200 * 100 subtracted from 100). Good god I might be able to break 40 afterall! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Is this a good thing?

Proposal 029-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) imposes elimination at the discretion of the ground jury for anyone who fails to report to the steward for inspection of saddlery (proposed by Canterlope).

Proposal 070-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) discusses dressage saddlery requirements. This proposal suggests the addition of a bitless bridle be added to approved dressage tack, as well as elimination of the noseband requirement. Proposed by Sarah Gretchell.

Proposal 001-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) allows for the use of a dressage whip at any time while on the flat, including during the dressage test. Proposed by Joan Fleser.

Proposal 240-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) requires numbers to be worn at any time the horse is out of his stall or vehicle while on the grounds after 3:00pm of the day prior to the start of the competition. This falls into line with current FEI rules. It also states that repeat offenders "shall incur a fine of $50" at the discretion of the Ground Jury.

Proposal 187-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) requires ASTM/SEI approved (or surpassed) helmets for all jumping phases... with harness secured of course.

Proposal 244-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) changes the speeds as well as distances and number of obstacles (offering more of a range) for XC. Specifically it changes OT and adds the speed for Speed Faults. Ie: Novice goes to OT Speed of 400 and Speed Faults at 470. Training goes to OT Speed of 470 and Speed Fault Speed of 520. Evidently this is intended to allow people to school a lower course at the higher speed. But it also effectively makes all N and T courses harder since it has upped the OT Speed (currently 350 and 400 respectively). I thought Speed was a *problem*... this proposal seems to not see that fact... or am I missing something??

Proposal 195-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) changes the penalties given in SJ. Dropping a rail would go from 5 to 4. First disobedience would go from 10 to 4 (can I say YUCK! a stop should be MORE than a careless toe!) and GULP! a 2nd disobedience would be ELIMINATION! Yep, no more 3 stops... you only get 1 "gimme" on the whole test... 2nd time and you're out! In addition, a fall of rider goes from 30 to a measly 8 points. /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Under Intent of Proposal it states that this brings it to "conform to 2002 FEI changes"... has anyone seen these??

Proposal 192-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) goes back to the distinction between a stop at an obstacle with height and one without... allowing a standing jump at one without height. YEA!

Last one... for now...

Proposal 241-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) deals with dress rules for horse trials. A WHOLE bunch is proposed to change here!! Specifically the following 2 points:

1. "A body protecting vest must be worn in teh cross-country and jumping tests... should pass or surpass the current ASTM standard F1937, certified by the Safety Equipment Institute." First, it says nothing about warmup. Second, EW! Wearing a vest in SJ??? *blech* And Third, what's with the "should" verbage? Either they write an effective rule or leave it alone!

2. "Lighweight sportwear is appropriate for dressage, cross-country and jumping at Tests and Horse Trials. Long or short-sleeved shirts, with collars but without neckwear, breeches and boots, or jodhpurs and jodhpur boots, are required. STable, team or club colors are permitted. Chaps and leggings are not allowed, but half chaps and jodhpur boots may be permitted under special circumstances. In the event of inclement weather, appropriate outerwear including rain gear is permitted. Hunting dress or uniforms may be worn but they are not required at any Test or Horse Trial. Three-Day Events, which are conducted under FEI rules, still require hunting dress or uniforms in the dressage and jumping tests." /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif and may I also say EWW!!!! I can just see it now... ponies in pink, black horses in dressage being ridden with black breeches and boots, neon helmet covers back in SJ. BLECH!!! No offense to endurance, but I don't care to see that look in a dressage arena!! OMG!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Edited to change title per request

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[This message was edited by tle on Oct. 09, 2002 at 08:59 AM.]

samie
Oct. 3, 2002, 12:51 PM
Well, I disagree with the bitless bridle in dressage . How can you meet the requirement of acepting the bit it there isn't one .

I would like to see dressage whips , perhaps with the same rules as in dressage . use a specified length max and no whips in championships. Are spurs allowed?

I like the number rule , that I believe makes it easier for the secretary to identify people,

I don't understand the saddle inspection. Is this something that needs done now and if so where do I have it done.

More speed on XC I think is bad , I would like to see more options though. I know this gets expensive for the show though. Speed just seems to bring up all sorts of problims.

vest in stadium yuk, The vest rule I thought was to provide safty on XC because of the speed and the perment obsticals.

Just my thoughts.

millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike

Robby Johnson
Oct. 3, 2002, 12:59 PM
I think that wording for apparel is way too ambiguous. Not to mention opens the door for all sorts of fashion disasters!

Who is behind this rule proposal? Who is in place to ensure it doesn't happen?

And why must we wear the BP's in show-jumping? Does this mean we'll just go through all 3 phases in the same outfit? If so, will more nationwide horse trials switch to the one-day format with this in mind?

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

Hilary
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:00 PM
I suppose I don't care about the whip rule.

I think that making every horse wear it's number will raise costs - several events in area I only offer pinneys- I don't want to wear my pinney all the time (and what if someone else offers to take the horse for a walk) and if this rule is in effect events will have to purchase more bridle numbers. Who sponsored this one, the bridle number company??

Vests in stadium? Yuck.

Equal yuck to removal of dress code. Slop city here we come. Eventers already have the rep of being wild and woolly, we don't need to add to that by not having to ever look nice.

Don't like the change to SJ penalties either - already, SJ has small impact on scores. 2 stops is kind of unsporting, don't you think? But to reduce all other penalties and beef that one up - doesn't make sense to me. Most likely the reasoning behind lessening the penalties for a stop is that you'll eat up lots of time, but since I thought they were going to slow down time for N again, it won't matter as much.

JER
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:15 PM
I'm in favor of this one. Eventing is a sport and should be undertaken in clothing appropriate for an athletic endeavour. I don't see football and baseball players wearing old-fashioned wool uniforms or vintage leather footwear these days, and the sport is none the worse. Wool jackets and tailored shirts might look nice, but they're just not very practical, especially in the Southern California endless summer.

Riding gear is expensive, often prohibitively so if you have growing children. My teenager is still growing and has ADD, which means that the most ordinary things are lost or destroyed at an alarming rate (and we work VERY hard to keep her things organized). If I could send her out in a $20 navy blue polo shirt, I'd be much happier; at least I wouldn't be buying stock ties and pins in bulk anymore.

As for vests in stadium, I always wear mine. Jumping is jumping. I had a terrible showjumping accident a few years ago -- it was a small class, I figured I was fine without it, but I was riding a green horse -- and won't jump without my vest anymore. From a personal point of view, I don't care if anyone else wears a vest when jumping, but from an organizer's/insurance POV, it seems to make sense to ensure maximum safety. A bad fall takes time out from the schedule, fewer serious falls (a vest can prevent you from cracking your ribs or bad bruising) means things are more likely to run on time.

tle, I did read your allegedly-caffeine-fueled rant on increased entry fees and I do agree that this is a problem. Just be glad you don't live in CA, it's so much more expensive here and now almost every event is held over 3 days -- which means eventing has essentially become a 4-phase discipline, with phase 1 being 'finagle-the-time-off-from-work/school'. And if you keep your horses at home like I do, you have to make arrangements for feeding/cleaning/care while you're away.

Entry fees are only a small fraction of the overall eventing costs and for those of us with a growing eventer in the household, a rule change like 241-02 can make eventing a little more affordable.

Janet
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:24 PM
156 "good points" (out of 200)would be 22 penalty points under either scheme (your first calculation omits the step of subtracting "good points from total points to get bad points"). The only difference is how errors are scored.

The proposed change matches the "way it is done in straight dressage" which probably means it will be turned down.

Pixie Dust
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:30 PM
Ew Ew EWWWW

Vest in stadium- Hate it

195-02- penalty changes- makes no sense to me, do not like

faster times for novice? Why?? If people want to school fast, no one's stopping them.

dress code changes?? HATE that idea....if it's hot excuse jackets....I'm talking dressage a polo shirt would be OK for stadium, but not dressage!!

Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin' it back- A Cowboy's Guide to Life

Janet
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't understand the saddle inspection. Is this something that needs done now and if so where do I have it done. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Otherwise known as the "bit check" in dressage. And the "medical card and whip length check" in cross country and stadium.

Janet
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:33 PM
They have been trying to get this one through for at least 10 years. (What year was the annual meeting in Pittsburg?)

Janet
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> faster times for novice? Why?? If people want to school fast, no one's stopping them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes they are. If you go faster than 400 mpm you get speed penalties.

Pixie Dust
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:41 PM
Yes, I understand that, but I say that's the breaks. If they want to school, then they are schooling, and shouldn't care if they place. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I guess they need to decide who "novice" is for. Novice riders or novice horses who are being schooled by experienced riders who are using as a schooling experience for higher levels.

Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin' it back- A Cowboy's Guide to Life

[This message was edited by bgoosewood on Oct. 03, 2002 at 04:50 PM.]

kileyc
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:42 PM
I thought the number on the horse was already a rule??? We have had to do it at all horse trials this year. Maybe just an Area V rule?

I sure hope the clothing rule doesn't change. It really gives our sport class!

Janet
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:42 PM
The elimination after 2 stops, and the equalizing of rails and stops has already happened at FEI competitions (CCI and CIC) this year

Badger
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:42 PM
Chiming in:

Dressage scoring: I kind of like the 2 point penalty taken after calculations (and yes, I made 2 point error just this summer by halting at X instead of G in a training level test), but don't mind if this changes to be more like straight dressage where an error isn't all that costly. I like easily converted scores, that you can just subtract the penalties from 100 to convert the score to a positive percentage comparison/convenience sake.

Saddlery inspection? Is this the current bit check or something more? Is this something for every competitor or just if something is question by the GJ they need to submit to an inspection? Need more info.

Bitless bridle? No way. Not for dressage. And lets leave the noseband in place.

Whips in dressage? I'd rather not. Horse needs to be going off leg for jumping, and that should be demonstrated in the dressage arena. I'd like to see whips eliminated from straight dressage competition as well (already prohibited for championships and Grand Prix).

Number rule is just dandy with me. Helps make horses identifiable, which is handy for lots of reasons (tracking down a competitor with info, figuring out which bay horse was being ridden illegally in draw reins, etc.).

Helmet rule: it's about time!

Speed: You should definitely be able to school the speed of the level above you without incurring speed penalties. This does not have to change the Optimum Time speed, however.

Stadium penalties: Huh? We want bold, forward horses and a stop should DEFINITELY be penalized more than a rail down. This one has me scratching my head.

Obstacles with/without height: Probably a good thing to revise this and go back to allowing some standing jumps for obstacles without height. However, the horse who boldly/fluidly goes around now is rewarded over one less bold that might pause or stick before jumping, so I kind of like the rule as is.

Vests in Stadium: I have been a helmet nazi since the 70s, and totally believe in the ASTM, but I'm not too fond of vests being required for anything other than x-c, where the fences are solid. I'm not convinced of much need. They should be, and are, optional in stadium.

Sportswear: YES. We are a sport, there are new materials and styles, and it does not make sense that we dress like a bunch of 19th century Brits hunting in cool and damp English winter when we are actually riding in the hot and humid 90 degrees, 95 percent humidity, American summer.

Don't take life so seriously...it's not permanent.

Janet
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guess they need to decide who "novice" is for. Novice riders or novice horses who are being schooled by experienced riders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Nominally, Open Novice is for experienced riders, and Novice is for inexperieced riders- but there are plenty of experienced riders in striagh Novice, just haven't competed at anything higher recently. And the rules are the same for both divisions.

Personally, I would like a wider range of speeds for Novice. If things are going well, I don't get a "cross country rhythm" until we are going about 400mpm, and then I have to circle before the last jump to be sure I don't get speed penalties.

But with some horses 350 mpm is plenty fast enough the first time out. You could just as easily say THEY are schooling, and should just "take" the penalties.

I think it would make more sense to make it 350 to 450.

ANd you don't want a BIG speed difference between Training and Prelim, the way it is now.

MsRidiculous
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:56 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Proposal 190-02 (proposed effective date 12/1/02) seems to take any errors in the dressage test and subtract them BEFORE dividing AND gives a new way to score. First, if adding in errors (or subtracting in this case) before dividing by the total possible points instead of after... wouldn't that make LESS of an impact on the score? Also the way the scoring seems to be proposed is pretty simple actually.... total good marks minus error divided by total possible multiplied by 100 gives you the percentage for that judge. To get penalties, that percentage (or an average over the number of judges) is simply subtracted from 100. EGADS! So instead of 156 good marks on a 200 point test being a 39 (156/200 * 100 * .5) it's a 22!!!! (156/200 * 100 subtracted from 100). Good god I might be able to break 40 afterall! Is this a good thing?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What the..? It's more simple, yes.. but I think my brain is so far stuck into the status quo that I would really be confused. Nope, I don't like that rule.

No to the one on the bitless bridle/noseband.

I'm torn on the whip issue. I personally don't want them to be legal, but it doesnt matter a lot to me either way.

Yes to the helmet one.

Big fat NO to the SJ penalties. What the heck is all that nonsense about?

Yes to the rule regarding stopping at a jump with height vs. one without height. To me, there's a difference, and should be viewed differently.

No No No to changing the rules of dress. Leave them as they are!

-Amanda

You can't always get what you want, but if you try sometime, you just might find.. you get what you need.

Janet
Oct. 3, 2002, 01:56 PM
I'd go along with it if it was "white or off-white shirt with collar and sleeves". But I don't want to see brightly colored shirts in dressage.

Did Rogert Haller REALLY propose the attire change?

Janet
Oct. 3, 2002, 02:00 PM
I am a strong advocate of approved helmets, but I am yet to be convinced of the real value of body protectors.

But if you are going to require them, you need a concrete definition of what IS a body protector. Under the current rules, I could claim that an extra heavy sweater was a body protector.

Pixie Dust
Oct. 3, 2002, 02:03 PM
The XC speed issue isn't actually important to me, but some of the others really irk me. Specifically the one re: SJ faults. What is the reasoning behind that??

I don't think whips should be in dressage, and I think they should be removed for regular dressage too. Same with the bitless bridles....kind of misses the whole point.

I wonder if the dress code will be changed? People have been whining about that one for a long time now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If it's changed, I hope they at least state that formal dress is optional. I like the way it looks.....and it's all about the pictures!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JenL
Oct. 3, 2002, 02:14 PM
I definitely don't like the idea of lessening the amount of penalties for a refusal or fall. I also dislike the idea of being eliminated for two refusals

I think we should stay with formal dressage for dressage, its much more elegant and formal gives us a chance to dress up. I don't think we should allow whips for dressage, because the whole point of dressage is to demonstate how effectively you can perform the movement with a minumum of aids.

For x-country I think speeding up the novice and training speeds is dumb. If people want to go fast, A: they can pratice at home or at schoolings, or B: They can sustain the speed penalties. Weren't we being railed about having too fast of a pace at the higher levels anyway? Why would you increase the lower levels if you want to slow down the upper levels??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I also don't agree with having to have an ASTM SEI vest. I love my tipperary eventer, and if I was forced to ride in one of the "turtle shell" vests, I'm sure it would affect my preformance.

I do think having ASTM-SEI helmets for both jumping phases is a good idea, although if you do not want to wear one, I guess that it's your perogative (sp?) since it's your head.

What I don't understand, is why they can't just leave well enough alone. I mean what exactly is the point of changing the dressage scoring anyway??

"Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past me I will turn to see fear's path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain."~Dune~

JER
Oct. 3, 2002, 02:17 PM
Jockeys wear BPs (but lighter, more flexible, a different standard) and despite initial protests, they've become convinced of their merits. The doctors that treated Julie Krone after the nasty spill in which she got trampled hard said that the vest more or less saved her -- she had a full hoofprint on her chest and a fair amount of damage -- they speculated that she might not have survived without the vest.

IME, my previous tempermental mare bucked me off 4 times in half an hour out hunting one day. I landed on hard ground, even rocks one time, and got right back up and continued. Not one single bruise under the vest. I did have some bruises on my arms and legs, however.

Given the choice, I'd rather fall with the BP than without.

Robby Johnson
Oct. 3, 2002, 02:38 PM
currently state that if jackets are waived, one wears a white shirt without neckwear.

If it's hot enough to go sans jackets, and the ground jury waives them, then we're covered, right?

White shirts, light breeches. This actually lends itself to keeping riders cooler in hot weather. And before anyone says anything, remember that I event mostly in Texas where it's usually normal for jackets to be waived in April.

Our sport is also steeped richly in tradition, and it is a "show." We go to the show to "show." Not to look like we've just hit the bargain basement at Kerrits. And that's not to say that anyone would be so ostentatious but, again, I event mostly in Texas. Never say never and, you know, bigger/brighter *is* better here!

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

JER
Oct. 3, 2002, 03:01 PM
Robby writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Our sport is also steeped richly in tradition, and it is a "show." We go to the show to "show." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Robby, you know I love you dearly but I beg to differ. 'Horse trials' and 'showing' are two different kettles of fish. 'Showing' in the real sense -- i.e., in the UK/Europe -- is when you get all kitted out in trad clothes and put your heavyweight hunter/light hack/first-ridden/native breed in whatever is correct (hogged mane, full bridle, sidesaddle, no boots) in order to w/t/c a bit before the judge rides your horse. THAT is a 'show'.

Horse trials/eventing is an actual sport for both horse and rider. Yes, I would like the rule change language to specify reasonable/tasteful colors but really, it's the least of my concerns.

As for the one-day format, I wish we had some ODEs in Area VI. This is what an HT is supposed to be, and I don't understand why we don't have them here. I know ODEs in the UK and Ireland that run HUNDREDS of horses in a single day, and for a fraction of the price of one of our US HTs. I think it's kind of silly to drive several hours, ride a 4 minute dressage test, then have the rest of the day off. I really don't appreciate having to take my kid out of school for the day either, although she doesn't seem to mind at all!

JAS
Oct. 3, 2002, 03:01 PM
I am thrilled with the adding the 2 pt error before the dressage score has multiplied/calculated, a pet peeve of mine for 10 yrs !! It is in line with USDF rules.

Body protectors in SJ...NO NO NO !!!!

4 pts for a refusal in SJ... NO NO NO !!
8 pts for a rider fall in SJ...NO NO NO !!

Wider range of speeds xc at Training level is good, you need to ride appropriate to your horse. Novice, I don't think so, this is the introductory to eventing.

How did we go from "only black or blue helmet covers in SJ" to no dress code at all... we have thrown the baby out with the bath water !!!!

Please USEA: write the rules carefully and thoughtfully, exactly how you/we want them, then ENFORCE them just as thoughtfully. Please don't write rules that you expect most organizers to ignore, and have the occasional diligent organiser or TD then crack down on riders. That would be unfair to the riders.

AM
Oct. 3, 2002, 06:22 PM
The dressage scoring and stadium scoring changes are directly in line with the FEI changes. I think the reasoning behind the stadium changes were to more closly follow the GP show jumping scoring. The reason for elimination after two refusals follows the safety/animal welfare thinking.

I found the first two sentences of the dress change proposal contradictory. The first one says you may wear any sporty attire. The second one goes on to specify just what that sporty attire must be.

You skipped the proposal that you can be assessed penalty points for dangerous riding. That was a new FEI rule last year.

I found the speed chart a little too small for my old eyes, but it appeared to me that they were just doing away with speed penalties. They weren't really changing the speeds.

I was offended that the reason for the bitless bridle was to allow more humane treatment for the horse. I'm not convinced that pulling on the poll is any more humane than pulling on the mouth.

And I'm a little concerned about making the bit inspection compulsory. I was at an event recently where the bit inspector "passed" a bit that the dressage judge eliminated. There is also a proposal that you have to have a new glove for each bit inspection. I like the way they do it in the QH shows. In a couple of random classes, everyone has to dismount and drop the bit out of their horse's mouth for the judge to inspect. Saves the expense of the surgical gloves. Maybe we could put a star on a certain percentage of tests and those riders would dismount, show their bit, and lead their horse out of the ring. It wouldn't take any more time as the judge could do the collective marks while the rider dismounted

samie
Oct. 3, 2002, 06:24 PM
Are there penalties for going to fast?

millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike

JAS
Oct. 3, 2002, 06:37 PM
With all due respect, please no dropping bits until after the test is ridden, we have a horse that putting the bridle on is the hardest and most dangerous thing we do at a Prelim event !!! And that is after 3 yrs of work. (thanks, no tips, trust me, we have tried that)

JackW
Oct. 3, 2002, 06:52 PM
First, I would like to thank TLE for taking the time to copy and poat the proposed rule changes. I have found some of the rule changes that took effect this year to both baffling and counter productive, for example at several events the speed for BN stadium has been 320 meters/min while cross country has only been 300 meters/min.
Proposal 190-02: If it ain’t broke, why fix it? I don’t see a strong need to change the staus quo
Proposal 070-02: see above
Proposal 001-02: If a bitless bridle is prohibited in USDF tests, why should we change?
Proposal 001-02: Same reasoning, if allowed in USDF, wht not at events?
Proposal 240-02: Why add another rule and burden if there has not been a real need? We have enough rules to track as it is.
Proposal 187-02: Agreed
Proposal 244-02: Actually the change this year was counter productive in my opinion. 350 meters/minute in many conditions is to slow. I would be in favor of going back to what we had before with 400 meters per minute being the target speed for Novice and 450 meters per minute being the target speed for Training with the ability for thee TD to adjust the speed for actual footing/weather conditions.
Proposal 195-02: Here I think we have it right, a stop should cost more than a knockdown, and the 10 point and 5 point penalties seem to work well.
Proposal 192-02: YEAH! To many jump judges are inexperienced and can not tell the difference between a horse gathering himself and stopping.
Proposal 241-02: I don’t believe body protecting vests are necessary in stadium, in fact when it is 90 plus degrees out there vests may cause more problems than they cure. Agree with TLE, either they have to conform to a standard or not. Last time I looked there was not the same agreement for vest standards as there is for helmut standards.

tle
Oct. 3, 2002, 07:02 PM
Oh let's see if I can get all my various responses in one message. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I was also pretty offended that the reasoning behind the bitless bridle/no cavesson in dressage was for humane treatment reasons. Makes it sound like everyone who IS using a bit and noseband is cruel.

The number on the horse rule CURRENTLY states that the number must only be there when the horse is being exercised. The proposed rule makes it so that it's there whether they are being "exercised" (a pretty vague term) or just out of the stall. I think I'd have more of a problem with this rule (and the increased costs tot he organizer to provide more numbers as you know they're going to get more destroyed) if I hadn't caught a couple people trying to pull a switcheroo a few years ago at an event.

The essence of the saddle inspection rule is to make sure people do check in and to create a penalty for those who don't. Basically it's the bit check, which CAN still be done after the test, but as long as you make sure you check in with the steward prior to your test.

I don't see the harm in extending the speed window to allow people to go faster with 2 exceptions: 1) that they took away the lower speed (350 for Novice and 400 for Training) thereby MAKING everyone go faster and in line with that 2) that we're always hearing about how lower levels go too fast as it is (isn't that why speed faults came about in the first place??). Now we're encouraging it??

Yes, Samie... you can get assessed penalties if you go too fast, just as if you go too slow. Don't worry about time at your first event though... just go and have a great time!

Don't worry about not being able to wear your Tipperary should this proposal pass... read closely. The way it's worded is vague... it says it "should" pass ASTM certification... it doesn't say it "MUST". /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif This is one of the problems I have with rules like this... they aren't written well enough to enforce the intent and are therefore worthless.

However, I still stand by my initial **BLECH** to vests in SJ. And yes, my vest has saved me from rib injuries, but ya know ... I still don't like to wear it in SJ. If I had a greenie or was a greenie, then that might be different. As it is, riders are not penalized for it and they can be worn as is... so what's the harm? Also, does anyone know where to find some actually testing data on the vests? I know it's out there for helmets, but last I heard there was no CONCRETE PROOF (beyond anecdotal evidence) that the vests really do work. Putting this rule in place without the proof seems to me to open up MORE liability not less... of course it's all moot with the *should* wording in there.

The SJ penalties might be an FEI rule, but I still don't have to like it. As someone put it, we want bolder horses and are not testing for the same things that a straight jumper round test. From the history of eventing, our SJ rounds are meant to test agility, obedience, and fitness. Dropping a toe *should not* be the same as flat out saying no! I know you end up with time faults, but still.

Whips in dressage -- NO WAY!!!

Dress... I *might* be convinced of this (anywhere but in dressage) **IF** the rule proposal were written to clarify what is ok. I do NOT want to see some of the things I see (and have worn) schooling! I agree... we've got that wild and wooly image now... we don't want to go to wild and sloppy! *blech!* I think Robby may be on to the point. Jackets are already waived if it's hot... so what's the point of taking the rest down (loved the comment about the baby and the bath water!!)

AM -- I agree the charts were hard to read, but if you look closely (IE, at Novice), the old Speed line read "350/400" and there were statements outside the chart that explained that 350 was for OT and 400 was for SF. NOW, the 350 is crossed out and only 400 remains as OT Speed. A new line has been put in for "Speed, Speed Fault" and it says 470. For training, the old(current) 400 OT speed is crossed out and only 470 remains and the Speed Fault Speed for Training is 520. So instead (at Novice) of having the no-penalty speed be between 350 and 400, it's proposed to be between 400 and 470! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif and for training it would no longer be between 400 and 470, but between 470 and 520! And that on horses who do not have to demonstrate too much in the way of lengthening and shortening their stride!!! Can you imagine a training horse with a gung-ho rider (who, remember doesn't have to qualify to ride at this level) comign into a pretty vertical-ish 1-stride combination at 520!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

JackW... you're welcome. Just call me a rule weenie!!

Hey, would anyone mind if I emailed Roger Haller and gave him a link to this page? If someone does, that's fine... I won't send comments that someone doesn't want sent, but I would like to send him a few of the comments posted here if not everything. Any problem with that? Remember, any rule proposal not followed by "Proposed by so & so" was created by the Eventing Committee and Roger's name is on the sheet at the point of contact.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

deltawave
Oct. 3, 2002, 07:06 PM
Now I have *always* been in favor of modernizing riding/showing attire, to "bring it into the 19th century" as I've often said facetiously. However, the wording of the proposed slacking of the dress standards is even too loose for ME. Ugh, ANY colors, half chaps??? Team colors in DRESSAGE? Gag me, I can just see the teenyboppers with pink bridles and matching glitter hearts trotting down centerline now...oy. I must be getting old! (of course, I *am* old enough to remember what "gag me" means...) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I propose a ban on anything pink or otherwise neon-colored or anything that sparkles and/or is painted on a horse's poor body in all riders over the age of 10. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
www.deltawave.homestead.com (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com)
www.seeliecourt.homestead.com (http://www.seeliecourt.homestead.com)

JackW
Oct. 3, 2002, 07:26 PM
TLE, send a link/copy to both Roger and Martie Healy.

Robby Johnson
Oct. 4, 2002, 04:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JER:
Robby writes:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Our sport is also steeped richly in tradition, and it is a "show." We go to the show to "show." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, Robby, you know I love you dearly but I beg to differ. 'Horse trials' and 'showing' are two different kettles of fish. 'Showing' in the real sense -- i.e., in the UK/Europe -- is when you get all kitted out in trad clothes and put your heavyweight hunter/light hack/first-ridden/native breed in whatever is correct (hogged mane, full bridle, sidesaddle, no boots) in order to w/t/c a bit before the judge rides your horse. THAT is a 'show'.

but that isn't what it is here, and these are US rules we are talking about, and in my opinion a horse trials is a competition and you do put yourself if front of a judge, for the dressage and s/j, and you should look the part to show your horse to his/her best.

Horse trials/eventing is an actual sport for both horse and rider. Yes, I would like the rule change language to specify reasonable/tasteful colors but really, it's the least of my concerns.

I am not seeing the distinction between the sport and the show, here. If it's just sport, then why are we even bothering to put it inside the confines of a competition? I've played a hell of a lot of softball games in my front yard (I'm better than your average lesbian, even), and that is sport. But it wasn't competition. When I played Little League baseball (shut up, I did, and I sucked at hardball), however, I was required to wear those awful white knit baseball pants, the leggings, etc.

So, I am ranting because I do feel that dress is already very adequately covered in the rules, and this rule proposal is probably being made by someone who is just flat out lazy.

If it's a matter of economics, then I contend that buying riding togs is really small in the big picture. And there are certainly ways to simplify and minimize the expense.

In England, at the ODE's (which I agree would be a much better format in America, too, for the "4-day" reason you posted about earlier!), the contestants wear a white shirt/stock for all three phases. A person could wear their same black helmet for all three phases. Same breeches all three phases. Same jacket for dressage and show-jumping. You see where I'm going with this.

In my opinion there is some pageantry involved in competition - all competition. That's what makes it different from just practicing at home.

And if they think a more relaxed dress code is going to encourage more members/competitors, I'm sure they have another think coming. Let's do a little hypothetical cost breakout here:

Cost of horse: $7K
Cost of trailer: $13K
Cost of monthly training/board: $750
Cost of entries/hotel/show/time-off: $600

At this point, does the variance of $200, between a jacket and a polo shirt make a big difference? No.

I really think this is being proposed by individuals who are lazy and don't like the fact that they may be less than comfortable for more than 3 minutes at a time. Why not just stay home and order pizza and scratch your crotch?

As for the one-day format, I wish we had some ODEs in Area VI. This is what an HT is supposed to be, and I don't understand why we don't have them here. I know ODEs in the UK and Ireland that run HUNDREDS of horses in a single day, and for a fraction of the price of one of our US HTs. I think it's kind of silly to drive several hours, ride a 4 minute dressage test, then have the rest of the day off. I really don't appreciate having to take my kid out of school for the day either, although she doesn't seem to mind at all!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

IFG
Oct. 4, 2002, 05:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I really think this is being proposed by individuals who are lazy and don't like the fact that they may be less than comfortable for more than 3 minutes at a time. Why not just stay home and order pizza and scratch your crotch?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Robby please think of my keyboard, I nearly spewed my coffe into it when I read this /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But really. Maybe it's because I came of age in the hunter world, but I really do agree with George Morris on this. Dressing properly shows respect for the judge, the sport, your horse, your trainer, your competitors, not to mention yourself.

That said, I have no problem with waiving jackets in the heat, because I do tend to get heat stroke.

Lany

tle
Oct. 4, 2002, 05:26 AM
I have to agree with IFG...

Robby, my poor coworkers now think I've completely lost it after the crotch comment!!

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

samie
Oct. 4, 2002, 05:30 AM
I supose I can see some substance to this in reguard to clothes , having shown dressage for the past couple years, Many a hot day I would love to have worn a polo. Perhaps this wouldn't be so bad if we stuck to rules such as no sleeveless and basic colors, or even white . I disagree with the prices you put up though I didn't spend nearly that much for my horse, my trailer , or for board. Though that is probally due to where I live.

I tend to stick a little more tword the traditional , but I am willing to admit that maybe in a sport such as eventing, there should be a little slack. With one exception, perhaps Championships should be a little more formal

millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike

JAS
Oct. 4, 2002, 06:36 AM
tle, please do pass on to Roger Haller/USEA !!!

Robby Johnson
Oct. 4, 2002, 06:41 AM
But I think it's probably close to accurate!

Now, here's something to think about. When jackets have been waived, I *do* wear a white polo shirt. The rule says "no sleeveless, without neckwear." This means I can wear a white polo shirt!

And there *is* most definitely a time to opt for no jacket! I don't have a problem shucking the coat when the pres of ground jury finds it appropriate, but until he says so, I wear what you're supposed to wear.

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

Pixie Dust
Oct. 4, 2002, 06:43 AM
RJ, you ROK!! OMG....can't stop laughing. I agree!!!

Maybe we should be wearing a full body condom....uh...I mean protectOR... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lettin' the cat outta the bag is a whole lot easier than puttin' it back- A Cowboy's Guide to Life

Bensmom
Oct. 4, 2002, 07:17 AM
Thanks, tle, for posting these proposals.

Change in dressage scoring: I don't see the reason behind this one, but there may be a reason at work that I just don't see -- wouldn't be the first time.

Inspection: Having to watch dressage volunteers chase down a competitor back to stabling because of a refusal to stop following a dressage test for bit check, I can understand this one. Either you have to be checked, or not.

Bitless bridle: No. As several others have posted, if your goal is acceptance of the bit, rather than simple submission, this would remove that requirement.

Whips in dressage: I don't feel strongly about this either way, but I have as one of my goals to get my horse listening to my leg, and school with the whip only sometimes to reinforce this -- I don't want to show with one. I hated the fact that when I rode without it last night, I almost couldn't get him forward. That shows me a hole in my training, so I would vote no on this, if being asked to actually vote.

Numbers on horse: we already do this. We interpreted "exercised" to mean handwalked, so we have just made it a practice to have numbers on them whenever we take them out of their stalls. I can usually find an old number in my trailer left over from a show in which the sec'y didn't want them back, and I flip them over and write my number on one of those and use it as an extra on his halter. This rule makes sense to me, as if a loose horse comes galloping up to me at a show, and he isn't wearing a halter with his name on it, it is going to be very hard to convince him to tell me who his mommy is. Which is another reason I wear my bridle number xc as well as my pinny. If you ever have to catch my horse without me on him, it will be easier to quickly identify who he is.

Approved helmets: Again, we already do this, and I rarely see anyone else in an unapproved, so no objection to this one.

Speed changes: I am not comfortable with upping the bottom or floor speed for Novice and Training -- you see too many people going too fast as it is -- but I think a larger window would be nice, but perhaps that's just because my horse wants to run Novice at Training speed /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I like the new system of a "window" of speed, rather than one allowable speed, and then a grace period of a minute, but it would be good perhaps if it were just a bit wider.

Stadium penalties: I think they are fine as they are currently. With the new time penalties, I've found that it makes SJ a whole lot more important, so the rule change there has done what it was intended to do -- as a competitor, I'm spending a whole lot more time making sure my SJ is safe and more competently ridden.

Jump at no-height obstacle: This makes sense, though I hope personally we've given up that habit. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I HATE jumping anything from a standstill!

Dress changes: What Robby said! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif While I followed the waived coats/no braiding at our first Recognized HT of the year a couple of weeks ago, I thought it made for a much less "electric" atmosphere. If I want to show in a relaxed atmosphere, I can do schooling shows, as almost all of them around here waive dress. I, for the most part, like the dressing up aspect of a recognized show, and I really hated not braiding my beast.

And just for the record: I will weigh in on the opposite side of HATING one days. We have to travel just far enough that I end up going the day before anyhow, and missing work, and spend stabling $ and hotel $ anyway. I sink so much money into doing this, and have no other life, and so I really enjoy having more time spread over the weekend to watch my friends ride, and simply to enjoy hanging around with other eventers. But I'm odd /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif After all, the only "vacation" I take every year is a week to volunteer at Red Hills. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks for the very interesting discussion!

Libby

Janet
Oct. 4, 2002, 07:26 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> At this point, does the variance of $200, between a jacket and a polo shirt make a big difference? No. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> For an adult who has (prettty much) stopped growing, and doesn't regularly lose/destroy clothes, no,it isn't a big deal. but for a growing child (especially one just starting, on a borrowed horse, when the parents don't know if riding is going to "take"), it can be a significant "barrier to entry".

And a polo shirt doesn't have to be dry cleaned.

I'll tell you-what I don't like about the current distinction between jackets" and "jackets waived" is the "no neckwear" part. I have several time found out AFTER I put my stock on, that jackets were waived. Then, I can't just take my jacket off, I have to take my stock off too- AND find somewhere safe to put the stock and the stock pin.

I would like it if they EITHER
a) allowed you to ride with neckwear but without jacket when jackets are waived
b) ALWAYS gave you the option of "jacket and neckwear" or "no jacket and no neckwear", with the rider making the judgement as to when it is too hot for a jacket.

I am fine with "uniformly white or near white", though, as someone who is congenitialy incapable of keeping ANYTHING white for more than 30 seconds around horses, I would prefer to extend it to other light neutral colors (light gray, tan, taupe, khaki, etc and maybe even pale blue).

Also, I have always interpreted a ratcatcher to HAVE a collar, but I would like that to be spelled out, as I can see how some official might say that it doesn't have a collar.

Overall, I am in favor o relaxing some aspects of the dress code, but one step at a time, not all at once.

What are "team colors"? That DEFINITELY needs a definition.

Janet
Oct. 4, 2002, 07:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Proposal 240-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) requires numbers to be worn at any time the horse is out of his stall or vehicle while on the grounds after 3:00pm of the day prior to the start of the competition. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What about before I have picked up my packet? If it is a hot day, I am certainly not going to leave my horse shut in the trailer while I go to get my packet.
And what kind of number is it? I think it would be REALLY unreasonable to expect us to transfer the bridle number back and forth between the bridle and the halter all day. A second conventional bridle number attached to the halter would be a real hassle putting the halter on and off.

I very rarely stable, so "out of the vehicle" basically covers from 5 minutes after I enter the grounds until 5 minute before I leave.

Maybe if they had something like the rider's medical card, that velcros around the cheekstrap on the halter (it would have the horse and owner info, but not necessarily the number for today's competition), that would help with the "identifying the loose horse" problem.

Heather
Oct. 4, 2002, 07:44 AM
Ok, my turn, LOL.

The dressage scoring thing doesn't get me too riled up, though that may be because I'm still struggling with the scoring changes up to this point, LOL. If it's in line with USDF, then I don't argue too much, though I am curious how it might affect the "minimum dressage score" qualifications that have been bandied about (and which I am in favor of).

The tack inspection thing is OK with me, as I think it may be inrefrence to the fact that I've seen illeagal bits/tack get through at a few events this spring.

Bitless bridle, no, and I actually like them--worked wonders for a horse we had, and he always jumped in it, but at the show he wore his rubber D-ring like everyone else. As far as the noseband thing, I don't like it aesthetically, but frankly, someone who can ride a proper test sans noseband is showing a better mastery of dressage than someone with a full crank flash tied down with a moneky wrnech, so I don't have a problem with it.

Definately no to the dressage whip--there are already too many horse who don't know how to move off the leg--letting someone have a crutch like that will only make it worse. If you need to school a test with a whip, go to a dressage show.

I'm not wild about the number rule because I'm TERRIBLE about remembering stuff like that, but that's my own foible.

Helmet rule, no problem, though I doubt it will pass--still too many fit issues--I know mine doesn't fit that well, though it's better than the other 8 brands I tried.

The new speed rule is asinine and I will be writing a letter against it. Sorry, but untill I see people going too slwoly at their fences, rather than the far more typical flat-out steeplechase style I see at the lower levels, I'm never going to accept that faster speeds are smarter. You want to go faster, fine, but be prepared to give up your ribbon--schooling and competing are not and should not be the same thing. (BTW, I've never understood about schooling a speed above your level anyway--who cares how fast you go your first time at a new level--don't you want to just get over the jumps? My old trainer would have kicked our butts if we had tried to make time our first time out at prelim--we had to prove we could get the jumps done first, then we were allowed to go fast).

I don't like the new show jumpign penalties, but they are in line with the FEI, so I'll live with them.

Yea for the wording change on obstacles with no height.

OK, now the big one, the fashion thing. I'm of mixed thoughts about this.

For dressage, I'd like to see things remain as is--that is a perfect venue for our elegant outfits, and it won't be the same without them. For cross country, no issue. For stadium, well, it's like this--if they are going to make me wear my vest in sj, then I want to be able to wear it over a polo or rubgy shirt, not my hunt coat (I can't even imagine if it would fit??). If they leave vests optional, then I have no problem with staying with traditional attire (though sorry, the rule change about helmet colors for sj bugged me, and still does!) Especially because, my vest, like most people's is in my colors, and will negate my black velvet stadium hlemt by it's bright burgundy-ness. And I ain't buying a second, black one. Finally, we do need to adreess the boots/half chaps issue. I know too many people (and am on the way to becoming one myself) who simply can't get tall boots on, even with zippers, due to injury. I can only get on boots with zippers due to a knee problem, and I fear in another ten year even the zippers won't be enough. And I find the vision of small children in tall boots absurd. So, I have no problem with allowing paddock boots and half chaps for the lower levels, provided there is language about how they look, color, etc. (must be black, with a leather exterior, for example). In the fashion world, show jumping is the problem discipline--fancy dress for dressage is kind of a no-brainer, as is sporting attire for cross-country. It's show jumping, a mix between the first two, where the challenges arise.

arnika
Oct. 4, 2002, 07:56 AM
I definitely agree with Robby et al. that you should present yourself at your best in front of the judges. There are already relaxed rules for waiving jackets.

Completely opposed to BPs in showjumping! Can you picture any jumper shows mandating vests for all courses? Grand Prix SJ? Please!

As a dressage rider I feel in my humble opinion bitless bridles are just a way to avoid having to have soft, feeling hands and having to teach your horse to reach and accept contact.

I've ridden with and without whips in dressage and don't see a big deal here.

Just Say No to the mandatory increased speed for Novice and Training! Maybe a compromise could be the same OT but wider range before speed faults would be assessed, if it's felt this is necessary?

I don't mind scoring the same as straight dressage.

I agree with wearing numbers.

Don't see anything wrong with saddle/bit inspection as long as they use gloves - cost runs about $3-5 for a box of 100.

Allowing loss of forward motion for a jump without height is a Good Thing.

Absolutely HATE the 2 refusal rule in stadium! If they have to change to meet FEI requirements in International competitions or in 3 day events(ie: *,** and up) I can see that. However I wouldn't think it would be necessary for straight HTs.

ASTM helmets are also a good thing but, and please correct me if I'm wrong - I'm not real familiar here, don't several very protective helmets do other testing that might be difficult to equate with ASTM?

I keep coming back to the dress changes. I just can't agree with wear whatever you want in dressage. I could survive (without puking /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) changes in stadium I suppose as long as they were not godawful but I'm not in favor of it.

Well, there's my opinion, feel free to share it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Terry

samie
Oct. 4, 2002, 08:19 AM
I 100% agree I always get rid of the coat when jackets are waived , I was told in Florida they hardly ever wear jackets at lower levels. I think a polo shirt is very appriate.

Maybe we need a proposal to have a temp limit for the waiving of jackets rather than leaving it to the management, we overheat well before management becomes aware of it.

millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike

samie
Oct. 4, 2002, 08:30 AM
Just wondering I haven't herd of this one.

millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike

kileyc
Oct. 4, 2002, 08:44 AM
As for the dress...more thought...I think it is all about discipline and preperation! Isn't that what this sport is all about? I was lucky enough as a kid, to board my horse and compete at Spruce Meadows, my trainer, who was an unbeleivably strict little German man, made us braid and dress for the jumpers, he always said "if you can't take the time to turn yourself and your horse out tidy and polished, then you haven't truly prepared for this competition". As a teenager I really hated that!! But as an adult I totally believe that when I braid my horse, put hoof oil on and put my coat on, my mind is prepared to do dressage (even if my horse is NOT!!) My current trainer has the same view, even when coats are waived, we wear our coats for dressage, yes even if it is 100 degrees! Even here in TX.

PS-Robbie-"to braid or not to braid" I couldn't not braid it, I managed to BRAID a 1" bridle path!!! He looked pretty cute even with his skinny neck!!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Robbie is hilarious, I spit my coffee on my lap top too!!!

asterix
Oct. 4, 2002, 08:56 AM
I have to agree with the previous poster that many's the day when I am SWELTERING in my jacket before the Tshirt/shorts clad officials decide to waive the rule...
but visions of gliterring neon stripey outifts in dressage are a bit hard to take, I agree.

Seems like we have broad agreement on reactions to a number of these rules, though not all --

Whips/bitless bridles are getting a thumbs down.

Faster min. speed in N/T are getting a thumbs down, though we are mixed on not penalizing faster speeds as prep for moving up.

SJ penalty changes are getting a BIG thumbs down. I do not understand why we need to have penalties that mimic those of either other disciplines (like straight SJ) or of our own international levels. College and pro sports often have slightly different rules, to accomodate the real differences on the field. Equating a rail and a stop seems nonsensical.

Jumping "no-height" obstacles from a standstill seems mostly to get a thumbs up. At low levels, it's probably a toss-up. I've watched a whole series of Novice riders come off (or nearly off) at the bank at Waredaca after their horses slowed, wavered, and then launched themselves; on the other side, my new horse rocketed at top speed off the bank at Marlborough the other weekend, and I wouldn't have minded at all if he'd felt the need to slow down and take a peek before going (though being forewarned by his warp speed approach to the entire proceedings did help me hang on).
We're not going to keep folks safer with this rule, but we will be more generous to those on greenbeans who need to take these things a bit more slowly. Better that they learn they can look, and go, than that they have to circle and represent if they hesitate.

Numbers and bit checks don't seem to bother folks, as long as they are enforced sensibly (I sure don't want to get dinged for getting my horse off the trailer to graze while I get my packet).

Dress -- this just seems like a too-vague wording of the rule. If we had the white/light shirt with breeches, as posters have proposed, we'd all look decent, at least. Then folks that wanted to up the ante with a jacket in dressage could (and I suspect a large number of adults will. I, at least, need some camoflauge when I sit the trot!). If vests are mandatory in SJ, then jackets would be silly. If vests are mandatory in SJ, we should be able to wear our xc helmets, which tend to be safer, more comfortable, and better-fitting then the other ones.
Can we propose a compromise, suggesting that the rule be more specifically worded to allow folks to be comfortable but result in a uniformly neat and tidy look?

Robby Johnson
Oct. 4, 2002, 09:10 AM
I just figured out who you are! Welcome welcome welcome! I'm so excited you're here!

xoxo

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

FlightCheck
Oct. 4, 2002, 09:12 AM
for all the reasons she put, plus...

If I show at the one day, my students cannot. I tried this last weekend again - it is just not possible to coach and warm up effectively - at least in my case.

I enjoy the 2 days - time to watch others, catch up on news, browse the tack stores, etc.

I'm against carrying a whip in the dressage ring, I like the stadium penalties just fine right now, and am against upping the speed at Novice.

AllyCat
Oct. 4, 2002, 09:43 AM
I have bruised a couple of ribs while wearing one, and in this instance, might have been spared a break (dunno). But bruised ribs take JUST AS LONG TO HEAL as broken ones. I am unconvinced of the benefit of body protectors. I always wear mine for XC schooling just in case, but I don't think they do all that much good.

Wearing helmets (even the BSEN approved ones) have shown an historical decrease in the number and severity of head injuries. They should be required! I even wear one for dressage. But body protectors just don't show that much benefit in the reduction of injuries to require their use across the board.

Not only that, why they have to be ASTM/SEI approved is beyond me. The new ASTM vests are hard as rocks, inflexible, and do not cover as much of the chest cage as my non-approved Tipperary. The ASTM vests seem to expose all of the abdominal area. Neither do they protect against spinal injuries nor deceleration injuries (no vest does this!). As far as I am aware, the current ASTM standard provides for IMPACT protection only.

I'm actually worried that wearing the stiff ASTM vests will decrease performance as I feel they restrict movement and they do not fit well in many instances.

I have already written Roger Haller about this and hopefully, others will.

Why do I have this vision of people riding dressage in their Parelli halters while wearing rhinestone-encrusted get-ups that require the wearing of sunglasses to observe? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

--You're the one that insisted on teaching her to talk--Buffy

betsyk
Oct. 4, 2002, 10:37 AM
Anecdotal evidence, for sure, but when my friend's horse reared and stomped on her a couple years ago, her injuries were demonstrably less severe in the areas covered by her ancient, non-ASTM vest. You could see a clear line of major vs minor bruising along the lines of the vest.

If your vest fits so badly that your riding suffers as a result of wearing it, you need a different vest. We don't hesitate spending hundreds of dollars on a properly fitting saddle for our horse; $150 investment in our own safety seems relatively minor.

And I think the bitless bridle thing is nuts. Agree with Allycat on this one, I can imagine some of the people at our barn showing up with their parelli halters, elbows flapping, bouncing their way through their dressage tests so they can hurl themselves at the "natural" obstacles on XC... How would the rule differentiate one type of bitless bridle from another

PMJ
Oct. 4, 2002, 11:14 AM
Gee, and maybe while they are at it, the "team colours" could include glitter on the horses.

Please what happened to looking neat clean and professional. If we want people to take the sport seriously, a free for all with clothing is not going to help and unless it is spelled out, some people find some pretty tacky things attractive.

mellsmom
Oct. 4, 2002, 11:47 AM
My horse goes better in a grackle nose band (figure 8) than in a flash. Is it currently legal to use one in eventing dressage? I got totally confused reading the wording of the proposed change and couldn't tell if it was legal now or not.

"I've got a holiday, a paid holiday, I've got a holiday in my head"

mellsmom
Oct. 4, 2002, 11:51 AM
Does anyone else see that this could be used at the lower levels when stadium is run before XC to keep some people OFF the XC course?

"I've got a holiday, a paid holiday, I've got a holiday in my head"

tle
Oct. 4, 2002, 12:05 PM
Mellsmom... yes a figure 8 is legal.

Many events do that now with the 3 stop rule. And if they don't, they do tend to tell competitors that they can go, but one problem and they leave the course. A one-day did this this summer, consulting with the SJ judge on if he thought the E'd competitor was too dangerous to even attempt XC. Worked well IMHO.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Heather
Oct. 4, 2002, 12:17 PM
When I was at the WEG I bought a new Charles Owens body protector, one that is ASTM approved and won't be available here until the fall. I was at the booth on the reccomendation of dear Weatherford, who had bought one that mroning and was raving about it.

To be polite, I agreed to try one on, thinking as I picked it up of the hanger, that it felt like giant stiff box. Well, these ones are made with a body heat activated memory foam thing and in about two minutes, it was more comfortable, movable, form-fitting and flexible than my beloved 8-million year old Tipperary. I was stunned at how good it felt on, how well it moved with me, and how un-bulky it was once I got it on.

It was explained to me that the "coverage" changes in the ASTM ones have to do with new research detailing how the old vest shapes actually helped injuries happen in some circumstances (don't remember all the details, but I do remeber that they don't cover as low on the abdomen any more becasue it was found that in certain falls the longer panels were actually driving up in to the rib cage and causing fractures.) Anyway, I was sold, and found the price very reasonable, and I bought one--it'll be here in November.

So look out for these vests when they come to the US--if you are in the market for a new one, I recommend it!

Robby Johnson
Oct. 4, 2002, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
When I was at the WEG I bought a new Charles Owens body protector, one that is ASTM approved and won't be available here until the fall. I was at the booth on the reccomendation of dear Weatherford, who had bought one that mroning and was raving about it.

To be polite, I agreed to try one on, thinking as I picked it up of the hanger, that it felt like giant stiff box. Well, these ones are made with a body heat activated memory foam thing and in about two minutes, it was more comfortable, movable, form-fitting and flexible than my beloved 8-million year old Tipperary. I was stunned at how good it felt on, how well it moved with me, and how un-bulky it was once I got it on.

It was explained to me that the "coverage" changes in the ASTM ones have to do with new research detailing how the old vest shapes actually helped injuries happen in some circumstances (don't remember all the details, but I do remeber that they don't cover as low on the abdomen any more becasue it was found that in certain falls the longer panels were actually driving up in to the rib cage and causing fractures.) Anyway, I was sold, and found the price very reasonable, and I bought one--it'll be here in November.

So look out for these vests when they come to the US--if you are in the market for a new one, I recommend it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I tried one on at Rolex and it came the week before I left for Virginia. I love it! It's so much more "freeing" than my Tipperary.

A local tack shop has been carrying them for rodeo riders, now, for about 3 months.

I had mine done in all black, since royal blue don't match my colors, but I can't wait to wear it.

It does just come to below your sternum. So, for me, I'll have to get those abs of steel before I appear in it in public! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

Daydream Believer
Oct. 4, 2002, 12:52 PM
I've been busy at work and finally got around to reading this thread..weww! Long one.

I'll add my two cents although most have already said it one way or the other.

Dressage scoring changes don't bother me

Inspection of saddlery: No problem...having been a volunteer doing this...it's a good idea.

Bitless bridle: I don't get it...isn't dressage about using bits...submission, acceptance, etc.? Maybe it's because I have an old fashioned dressage background, but it's hard to believe that a horse can't come to accept some bit given the wide range of choices we have now. I think this would appeal mostly to people who don't have a strong dressage background. You might as well allow mechanical hackamores! I don't like it at all.

Whips: I say yes for them. Why not allow them at horse trials? They are allowed in straight dressage other than championships and FEI classes. We should do the same I think. If your horse is so far behind your leg that it's causing jumping issues than carrying a whip in dressage isn't going to fix such a basic lack of schooling. It will help green or clever horses in that a quick correction with the whip can help refocus and set them straight if they become inattentive or naughty. Really big problems a dressage whip will not help or hide, however, they can be a good preventative and schooling aid.

Numbers on horses: I do this already. I thought it was a rule already. Oh well, no biggie to me.

Approved helmets: It's about time. I have a hard time believing that fit is still a big issue with these. The benefits of that styrofoam lining way outweigh the detriment of it not fitting like a glove. As long as it stays on, in place, and doesn't slide around or fall into your eyes than you are far better off with one of these on your head than one of the old helmets.

Speed changes: No strong feelings here. I think a wider window would be nice too.

Stadium Penalties: I can't believe a stop shouldn't be penalized heavier than a rail. That's crazy in my opinion.

Standstill jumps: OK with that change.

Vests in Stadium: Yuck! I hate them even for XC. I have had heat stroke before and just wearing one of those puts me at a higher risk of a reoccurance. I really think they should be optional in all jumping phases rather than mandatory. Show me the proof that they save lives? Several riders have died wearing them and riders have died wearing the old style helmets. It just doesn't make sense to me that they've required these darn vests for several years now and still allow the ASTM helmets to be optional.

Sportswear: hmmm. I think very conservative light colored sports attire in dressage would be OK at horse trials. In stadium and XC, anything goes doesn't bother me. I do think dressage should be more formal but for the same reasons I hate the vests I hate that black, wool coat. I'm usually sweating like a pig before someone on the Ground Jury notices how hot it is. I wouldn't miss them much.

Some very interesting ideas are being proposed and discussed. This is a good thread.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

betsyk
Oct. 4, 2002, 01:57 PM
I almost forgot - a tip on the "number at all times" thing (we do this already 'cuz we thought it was definitely going to be new rule, I guess). Take a few wraps of white vetwrap around the cheekpiece of your halter, and write your number on with a black sharpie. Next show, peel it off, and redo. Legal, afaik, because I picked this one up at YR a while back and that was under FEI rules. Adhesive tape works too.

JER
Oct. 4, 2002, 07:15 PM
... about the ODEs. I'd be all for formal attire at an ODE because it's all in one day. In fact, at schooling events, I wear my white shirt and stock throughout -- so much simpler. But it's not so easy for these 4-days (I like your term!), and again, especially when you have a kid.

I occasionally like dressing up as much as the next girl, as I did last week to sit in the front row for the Barbra Streisand show (!!) but I do think that simple attire like polo shirts and breeches look very presentable at a horse show. (Today I was wearing my jacket in very hot weather and I was just too hot.) But as others have stated, the language could be made much clearer to define the parameters of good taste.

Which brings me to another point -- I find it really alarming that there's no consistent language for USAEq rules, and some of these proposals are very poorly written. My business partner is a lawyer and I'm ridiculously analytic, and we go to great lengths to inspect the language in our contracts. We always opt for specific definitions rather than general legalese. The more specific you are, the more inclusive you are -- general terms don't really mean anything in court.

Sannois
Oct. 4, 2002, 07:49 PM
But before I do, These are just proposals correct?? When do they get put to a vote, and who gets the vote?? OK I think the speed in Novice is excessive and unnecessary! The Dressage scoring is fine. No whips! The stadium rules is odd, dont agree. Standstill jumps from low heights is fine! Numbers is ok I have done that at several events already. Helmets, I thought ASTM were mandatory for jumping phases already. Body Protectors in SJ, No way! The dress thing is awful. Cross country is great that you can be sporty and casual, But Dressage has so much class, and I like the traditional look. I will contimue to wear my conservative clothes. As I will in Show Jumping! I think that you will see most folks as shown in this thread will stick to the traditional dress. Tack checks are fine. But PLEASE dont stick a dirty finger in my horses mouth That has always appauled me! Gloves please, I'd supply my own! Did I forget any?? And where can we write to voice our opinions. I think the majority of us so far all agree on most things! Oh and no to the Bitless Bridle too, at least not in Dressage! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

PMJ
Oct. 4, 2002, 08:24 PM
So I get it about casual polo type shirts for summer, but what do they propose for winter wear for the casual look. Personally, I think it is tacky to have group colours and a free for all on whatever anyone deems casual, but then again I like plain saddle pads and white polos.

Robby Johnson
Oct. 5, 2002, 03:58 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JER:

I occasionally like dressing up as much as the next girl, as I did last week to sit in the front row for the Barbra Streisand show (!!) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You wench!

I think someone else posted that a minimum weather requirement should be in place to determine if jackets are waived. I think this is spot-on.

First, on an April morning in Texas, a judge could be comfortable in his jacket if he's sitting in a shaded area. But the riders could be dying (and we need to remember, too, that galloping/riding tends to make us hot and sweaty even when it's 40 degrees out) up there.

What do we think - 80 degrees out with a relative humidity of 70%? If this happened, would there be an official weather report at the event?

I will rescind a bit and say that I'm all for a polo in the dressage if, and only if, the weather warrants it and if, and only if, the rules don't change regarding color. White shirts, light breeches.

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

Daydream Believer
Oct. 5, 2002, 05:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:
I will rescind a bit and say that I'm all for a polo in the dressage if, and only if, the weather warrants it and if, and only if, the rules don't change regarding color. White shirts, light breeches.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

White shirts and light breeches are what I had in mind for dressage too. I think a beige breech and a white collared shirt and a black helmet cover to be appropriate and conservative enough for a horse trial.

What about braids in dressage? It seems like the trend is starting to be to not braid now. Longleaf HT this spring actually encouraged riders at Prelim, Training, and Novice to not braid and let the judges know that the turnout was less formal than usual. Has anyone else seen this? What is the concensus on this? I have mixed emotions personally. I love to see a horse all turned out nicely braided, but if we're all going to be so "informal" now, what's the point? I mean, why braid if you're not even going to wear a dressage coat? On the positive side, especially at a one day HT, it does save a lot of precious time to not mess with braiding. Maybe time better spend walking the courses, resting and caring for the horses. Thoughts?

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

Robby Johnson
Oct. 5, 2002, 05:43 PM
you hit on what the can of worms I didn't want to open up. The rules have never said you have to braid, it's just a tradition that most eventers follow.

But if you're hanging out in your LLBean, I can't see many taking the extra time to braid, either.

I mean, why?, when you can be sitting on your fluffy-duff at the concession stand talking to everyone who will hear about your last fall, your new baby (horse, of course), your 3,000 reasons why your horse stopped on XC, etc., at the last event ...

I would bet the farm that a relaxed dress code - including braiding bans - does NOT reflect in improved scores. Because what does this encourage riders to do? To just flat out ignore good horsemanship, and good sportsmanship. It's so freggin' America it just makes me want to wretch. "You *can* get something for nothing here. Really! Just put it on your credit card or swallow a pill, or complain enough. Voila! Instant gratification!"

If this rules passes, I will continue to dress and turn out as I always have.

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

Daydream Believer
Oct. 5, 2002, 06:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Robby Johnson:

Because what does this encourage riders to do? To just flat out ignore good horsemanship, and good sportsmanship. It's so freggin' America it just makes me want to wretch. "You *can* get something for nothing here. Really! Just put it on your credit card or swallow a pill, or complain enough. Voila! Instant gratification!"

Robby

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very good point here. I have to say that there's no substitute for good horsemanhip and sportsmanship. I think that skipping the braids at a one day is OK as long as your turnout is nice otherwise and the horse's mane lays neatly, but at an all weekend event, there's no reason to not braid but general lack of desire to show your horse off at it's best. I'll admit that I did not braid for Longleaf this spring but was hauling in each day from home 1.5 hours each way and the braiding was being discouraged by the organizer. I actually think I missed it somewhat..the braiding that is. I used to get paid for braiding years ago and can do a nice job with sewn in buttons when I have the time. I'll confess to devising a way to use braidettes and still have decent looking buttons for when I have less time to braid.

Even if they allow colored polos in dressage or God knows what, I think I'll stick to at least a white shirt and light breeches too. When it's cool enough, I'll wear my coat.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

clickstar
Oct. 5, 2002, 06:51 PM
i don't know what the big deal is about braiding! as i understand, most events in the US are held over 2 days...? why is it so difficult to take the time out to tidy up your horse and present it looking the best it can be? the events in Canada (or ontario, at least) are all held on one day (or two, with different divisions on either day) and no one seems to have trouble taking that 30-45 minutes to braid their horse...

as for changing dress for dressage: i think they'd have to lay down far more specific guidelines for wear. i personally like the formal look... i like eventing so much because it has the formality and presence of the dressage ring as well as the guts and athleticism of the jumping. too many tend to overlook the dressage, because they just want to get it over with and go jump, but i think dressage is the foundation of everything else we do when we ride, so we shouldn't be dumbing it down with crazy farm colours and team jackets... blech...

i don't think it such a big deal to raise novice to 400 mpm... that's what it is here.

the new stadium rules don't make much sense to me either... although on the one hand i understand that a rail down is a bad fault when the point of SJ is to show that the horse is still fit to jump after XC, i still don't see how it can be considered and equal fault to a full out stop. eventers must be bold and forward, and a stop definitely seems like the greater evil.

whips shouldn't be necessary in the dressage ring, IMO.

bitless bridles - well, i guess if your horse is forward and sufficiently accepting of the bridle and of your aids, doing correct dressage in one of these, all the power to you! i don't see why a correct dressage test in a bitless bridle should be disregarded for a lack of bit. at the same time, this starts to leave too many variables, in which case it may become harder to judge horses on a level playing field. nosebands should stay on bridles. if you don't need it, don't do it up tight.

subk
Oct. 6, 2002, 10:56 AM
My thoughts.

Bitless Bridle: opposed, just stupid

Allowing dressage whips: Very opposed. This sport is about going forward. In the jumping phases if your going to your whip you are already in trouble. Dressage is about making the jumping better. Whips are a step in the wrong direction.

Number at all times: lukewarm. I see merit in the concept. In UK riders provide their own numbers. I could see riders owning an inexpensive halter tag w/ changable numbers not being a big deal.

Approved helmuts: I agreed with the delay in requiring, however the market that prompeted the delay no longer exisits. It's time.

Speed: Unlike most of you it seems, I'm horrified at the tremendous amount of backward riding I see on XC. While I'd be the first to say that 'forward' and 'fast' are not the same thing there IS a relationship between the two. I would guess that if we could see the accident records we would probably find that the guys going too fast don't get into nearly the quanitity or the severity of accidents that the guys who go to slow get into. To me, excessive speed is a display of poor horsemanship but riding backward is the root of 90% of all the danger on XC. I would even consider eliminating speed penalties.

SJ penalties: agree with change. The new 1 point per second over optimum is brutal. I suspect the change is to offset the time expense of a stop (I still think a stop will still be more costly with this rule then before this year's time penalty change was implimented.) Two stops and your out works for me also. If your day is going that poorly you need to hang it up. I again wouldn't be surprised if competion records showed an inordinate number of horses who get a 2nd stop end up with the 3rd stop too.

Allow a standing jump from obstacle with no hieght: excellent

Dress changes: The ruling here is way too liberal for me to even seriously consider. On the larger concept I'm still undecided.

By the way: Coats and braiding were waved at a large event in Area III recently and a little birdie told me it was done because next year that event will have another event placed on the calendar on the same date. It was a PR move to make competitors want to come back next year.

Janet
Oct. 6, 2002, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I would bet the farm that a relaxed dress code - including braiding bans - does NOT reflect in improved scores. Because what does this encourage riders to do? To just flat out ignore good horsemanship, and good sportsmanship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry, but this is a COMPLETE non sequitor.

How does not braiding discourage good horsemanship? The less time I spend braiding, the more time I can spend doing things that actually BENFIT the horse (like an extra grooming, or a stretching session. or maybe even a massage). If my fingers are numb from braiding, that makes me ride worse, not better. If my horse is all on edge form being braided, that is not good horsemanship.

And I can see no connection at all with good sportsmanship

JER
Oct. 6, 2002, 08:27 PM
Braiding is at the rider's discretion. It is not required by any rule. A judge can't mark you down for not braiding, although if you're not showing off your horse to its best, this may contribute to a poorer overall impression by the judge. Braiding bans, therefore, are not necessary as there is no requirement that you braid. However, if an organizer wants to advise riders that time would be better spent on an extra course walk than on braiding, I think that's fine.

Bitless bridles. I've seen a few BBers saying that a horse is supposed to show "acceptance of the bit" in dressage. But if you check a dressage score sheet, you'll see that under the collective marks category of 'Submission', it says "acceptance of the BRIDLE." So based on that, I'd say no problem with the bitless bridle.

But back to the question of formal dress. On Friday, I did dressage in about 90F heat. Coats were NOT waived. Today was SJ, and after I got back to stabling, I checked the temp and it was 105F! Need I mention that coats were NOT waived? I did notice the judge was sitting in the only spot of shade available...

BarbB
Oct. 6, 2002, 09:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by FlightCheck:
for all the reasons she put, plus...

If I show at the one day, my students cannot. I tried this last weekend again - it is just not possible to coach and warm up effectively - at least in my case.

I enjoy the 2 days - time to watch others, catch up on news, browse the tack stores, etc.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

hmmmm....I sympathize with trying to ride AND coach in a busy day, however, both would be nice. I enjoy the social aspects of a longer HT also - but I have not been able to go to a single HT with my new horse this year because my only day off is Sunday and there was only one one-day HT within a days drive.
I will get to some schooling shows this fall, but I am wondering if next year will be the same - no competitions for me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
HT in varying venues would be beneficial to working adults.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BarbB
charter member BEQS Clique & Invisible Poster Clique

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings. - The Koran

Robby Johnson
Oct. 7, 2002, 03:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I would bet the farm that a relaxed dress code - including braiding bans - does NOT reflect in improved scores. Because what does this encourage riders to do? To just flat out ignore good horsemanship, and good sportsmanship.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry, but this is a COMPLETE non sequitor.

How does not braiding discourage good horsemanship? The less time I spend braiding, the more time I can spend doing things that actually BENFIT the horse (like an extra grooming, or a stretching session. or maybe even a massage). If my fingers are numb from braiding, that makes me ride worse, not better. If my horse is all on edge form being braided, that is not good horsemanship.

And I can see no connection at all with good sportsmanship<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps for you, Janet, but waiving braiding (which, as JER points out, is sort of unnecessary since it's not even a rule to begin with) as a blanket rule for all to have more time to spend walking courses and training is just moronic. How many 12 year-olds do you really think are going to appreciate the extra 30 minutes and take advantage of it to do something productive?

And if you need 30 extra minutes to work on your training, you likely shouldn't be at a competition to begin with.

I refuse to let eventing become the KMart of English equestrian activity. You can all believe that I will be publicly opposing this rule in Cleveland.

But I do - for the reasons that JER points out - think we need to consider a minimum weather requirement and then let it be at the discretion of the rider whether or not they compete in formal wear, or a polo shirt.

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

samie
Oct. 7, 2002, 04:39 AM
agreed braiding is part of the finished product, it isn't a rule we do it because it looks more polished and is respectful of the judge



what ever happened to the decaffinated part of this discussion

millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike

samie
Oct. 7, 2002, 04:46 AM
actully the foundation of dressage is the acceptence of the bit , a bit less bridle would block the impulsion .

millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike

tle
Oct. 7, 2002, 06:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>SJ penalties: agree with change. The new 1 point per second over optimum is brutal. I suspect the change is to offset the time expense of a stop (I still think a stop will still be more costly with this rule then before this year's time penalty change was implimented.) Two stops and your out works for me also. If your day is going that poorly you need to hang it up. I again wouldn't be surprised if competion records showed an inordinate number of horses who get a 2nd stop end up with the 3rd stop too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to check my final results paperwork from the event yesterday (it's at home), but I'm positive I saw several novice/bn horses refuse a jump and STILL make time!! Granted, this course was wheeled pretty generous, but when the fences are that low, with a relatively athletic horse, one can still fly over them and make time after a stop.

Also, as one who was doing some addition, 5 points is a lot easier to work with than 4. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

LAZ
Oct. 7, 2002, 07:15 AM
Proposal 190-02 (proposed effective date 12/1/02)
Changes of scoring:
For. I think subtracting the errors from the total good points before doing the rest of the math is kinder than doing it afterwards.

Proposal 029-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) Saddlery check:
I don't care about this one, but the station/steward needs to be clearly visible and accessible at each phase it's used.

Proposal 070-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03)
Bitless Bridles
For. You might see a few people riding in them, but I doubt you'd see many. I do not see the bitless bridle as an unfair advantage for any competitor so see no reason to not consider it.

Proposal 001-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03)
Use of a dressage whip in dressage.
Opposed. I oppose this one, simply because I think a person should be able to do it without a power booster in the quiestest of the phases. I realize there are many horses out there that go better with a whip in dressage, but I think not being allowed to carry one is equalizing the performances.

Proposal 240-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03)
Numbers on at all times.
For. It makes it easier for all horses to be identified if they get loose. I'd have to get in the habit of doing it though!

Proposal 187-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02)
Helmet Certification
For. This rule only makes sense to me--why should it not be in effect? In car racing you are required to have the most current safety equipment and there is a technical inspection of your equipment to be sure you comply before you race or you get booted out. It is for the safety of the sport as well of the competitor.

Proposal 244-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) changes the speeds as well as distances and number of obstacles (offering more of a range) for XC.
I can't read the particulars of this on my machine, it's blanking out the charts. Grrr.

Proposal 195-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) changes the penalties given in SJ.
Opposed. 5 and 10 are fair enough penalties for stadium problems. Why in the world would they change this after initiating the increased speed and 1pp/sec rule this year? That was supposed to give SJ more weight and now they're talking of lowering the penalities for rails and stops? *scratching head here*

Proposal 192-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/02) Pausing at ditches and banks
For--I think this is a good thing.

Proposal 241-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) deals with dress rules for horse trials.
1. Vests in stadium
Against (sort of). I don't want to wear my vest and my coat for heats sake, and my coat won't fit over my vest so there would be no warming up without the coat & just slipping it on over the vest at the last minute (plus the whole rigamarole with then getting the armband off and on). If I'm riding a really green or unreliable horse I'll wear it outside the coat, but I don't wear it on my other ones.

2. "Lighweight sportwear is appropriate for dressage, cross-country and jumping at Tests and Horse Trials.

I agree with Robby here--I'm a traditionalist and think we should stick with the quiet attire we now have. It would be fine to make a mandatory waiving of coats if the weather conditions warrant--pick a heat index figure where waiving becomes mandoratory. I just can't imagine allowing whatever colors in the competition arena--I cringe when I see flamingo shirts in the jumper competitions.

I think the rule to allow half chaps in certain conditions is a good one. Sometimes a rider has an ankle or foot injury that prevents getting a boot on, but not riding--it would be nice to be able to get permission to ride in your half chaps under that condition.

tle
Oct. 7, 2002, 07:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Proposal 244-02 (proposed effective date 12/01/03) changes the speeds as well as distances and number of obstacles (offering more of a range) for XC.
I can't read the particulars of this on my machine, it's blanking out the charts. Grrr.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A few people have said this... this is what it says:

For the chart currently in Appendix 2, remove the line for Optimum Time for all levels.

Distances:
Novice: 1600-2000m
Training: 2000-2600m
Prelim: 2400-3000m
Intermediate: 2800-3400m
Advanced: 3200-3800m

Speed, Optimum Time
Novice: 400mpm
Training: 470mpm
Prelim: 520mpm (no change)
Intermediate: 550mpm (no change)
Advanced: 570mpm (no change)

Speed, Speed Faults
Novice: 470mpm
Training: 520mpm
Prelim - Advanced: NA

Efforts (remove the word maximum)
Novice: 16-20 (was 18)
Training: 20-26 (was 24)
Prelim: 24-30 (was 28)
Intermediate: 28-34 (was 32)
Advanced: 32-38 (was 36)

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Gry2Yng
Oct. 7, 2002, 08:00 AM
Scoring Dress - Either way, I have made my fair share of errors, lost ribbons/points and kicked myself, but I am indifferent.

Tack Inspection - I had always interpreted this as a courtosy to the rider. If I have not had my tack inspected and someone wants to challenge me for the equipment I used, I can be eliminated. If I have been inspected, then I have "proof" that I used the correct equipment and cannot be eliminated. My horse must be trotted straight from the warm-up to the competition ring, do not pass go or stop to collect $200, so I always have my bit checked afterward.

Bitless Bridles - NO WAY! get a better seat and hands.

Whips for dressage - NO. you can use it in the warm-up to get your horse infront of your leg. Too many riders nag with the whip.

Number - OK. I always forget when I leave my stall for a handwalk, but I have used tape on the halter.

Approved helmets - I thought they were required this year.

Speeds - with subk on the number of backward riders I've seen. I don't care - could we just stick with SOMETHING for more than one year.

SJ Penalties - Since I have a horse that ALWAYS takes a rail, 4 is better than 5. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Indifferent, otherwise. I like having HT rules that more closely mirror FEI rules, keeps things more simple in my head.

Obstacles without height - Yippee! Even as an experienced rider, when I jump judge I have a terrible time with the current rule and I am never sure if I am applying it the same way for every rider. Is one worm-y approach more disobedient than another? I liked the "backward step" rule. That is clear. Also, green horses should learn to drop quietly down banks and into water rather than launch themselves, it makes moving from training to prelim much easier if you aren't leaving strides out on these fences.

Vest in SJ - NO NO NO NO NO NO NO! I am sick of being placed in bubble wrap by the USA Eq and the United States Government.

Casual Dress - NO NO NO NO NO NO! Waive coats, personally, I wear mine anyway. My horse is black and he gets through it. It is actually management that waives the coats not the judge. Usually, all you have to do is find the show manager and say "Hey - can we waive coats" and they will. It is more or less just a matter of pointing out to someone who is not dressed in black wool, that it is hot.

I am with Robby and everyone else brought up in the old school 100% on this issue. Hard work is a good thing and dressing well shows respect. Riding is not about taking short cuts for your own comfort. It is about sweating the pounds off every single day and more so at a competition.

I will always braid for a recognized competition, but when I go to a schooling show I will tell you what I do with that extra half-hour - I sleep in!

tle
Oct. 7, 2002, 08:27 AM
Just had another thought (amazing for a monday morning, isn't it? Of course, heaven knows if it will make any sense).

I got into a discussion with someone this weekend about the scoring and other changes... specifically the whips in dressage, but it carried over to other things. Now, she has a very lovely mare who can be a pig in dressage (ie: getting behind the leg, etc.). She is very much in favor of allowing dressage whips in the eventing tests. But her comment to me was "it's allowed in straight dressage". My reaction was "SO WHAT?!!" ...meaning, so what if it's allowed in another sport that is SIMILAR to ours. We have our own dressage tests because they are intended to test the things WE do in OUR sport. We have differing ideas on course design for SJ because OUR SJ tests different things than straight SJ. Why is it that we have to set up rules and scoring to mirror those OTHER sports when, yes they are similar but NOT THE SAME!!?? This includes the dressage whip issue, the changes in SJ scoring (4 faults instead of 5), and a miriad of other items that I'm sure my brain would remember if it was actually working today. I'm so tired of the "well they do it this way" attitude. This is OUR sport, not THEIRS!

Ok... rant over (for now /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).

Again, I sent a copy of this link to Roger Haller last week, but if anyone wants to send him a personal note about any of the proposed rule changes, by all means FEEL FREE to do so.

Hey Robby... I'll be right there with you arguing AGAINST the casual dress code!

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Sannois
Oct. 7, 2002, 08:42 AM
I will be right behind you as well. That made me crazy! I will still dress the same as always! And Braid. That of all the proposals really gets under my skin!

"Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" Benjamin Franklin, 1755
Founding member of The Fossils over Fences Clique!

samie
Oct. 7, 2002, 09:38 AM
I must say it is hard to change from one sport to another. Some rules posted for dressage I assume are the same in eventing but are not. I agree though that we aren't testing for the same thing . I would like to see whips but thats because I am used to having one , I train at home without it most of the time and I am learning to ride more from my leg which helps in XC and stadium so I can see why it is not allowed , rules aren't made to make it easier for those (including me) who just don't want to work as hard .

though I do prefer to have a whip I agree that the rule should not change and whips should not be allowed in dressage

millions of people walking around like happy meals with legs. -Spike

rhymeswithfizz
Oct. 7, 2002, 10:02 AM
Dressage scoring: Doesn't matter to me, as long as it's consistent.

Saddlery inspection: Wow, this comes as a shock. I didn't realize that there was a problem here. I'd be fine with it though, if it makes things easier on the organizers, and fileters out some cheaters.

Bitless bridle and no-noseband: I don't much care either way. I've never used a bitless bridle, but I certainly don't appreciate the implication that using a bit is cruel to my horse. And a noseband really isn't a necessary part of a bridle anyways -- at least, if your horse is already accepting of the bridle, he shouldn't need a noseband to clamp his jaw shut (mine wasn't, and I needed one).

Whip: No, no, no. If your horse isn't obediently forward enough off your leg on the flat, how on earth can you expect to put in a good jumping round? This is NOT the same as regular dressage, that's why we have different tests showing off lengthenings instead of collections. An event horse must first be obedient and forward.

Required numbers: Yes, yes, yes. I have caught too many a loose horse in my day. I've been doing this already, interpreting "exercising" as taking my horse for a walk. And remember, the number doesn't have to be any official kind of number, I always just used a bit of labeled masking tape around a ring on my halter. Easy and cheap. Duct tape in a pinch. Duct tape on baling twine, if you want to get really fancy and not get tape goo stuck on your halter!

Approved helmets: Well, duh.

Speed change: ACK!!! They just spent all this time and effort and rule changes making things SAFER, redefining and now they want to encourage people go fast again??? This makes no sense to me. If you want to school, then school, but accept the time penalties.

Stadium point change: NO NO NO! I don't like that the penalty is being reduced for a rail, much less making a rail equivalent to a stop, or making a FALL equivalent to two rails??? Absolutely Ridiculous. We are not GP jumpers here, we are eventers. Keep it as is.

Stops at banks: Fine. Makes sense.

Body protector for SJ: Noooooooooo! Can you imagine how HOT that would be with a jacket on???

Dress code: Ugh. Even ignoring the ambiguity of the way this rule is written, I still don't like it. Leave the informal schooling dress for schooling shows. And I personally will braid every time, even if jackets are waived. I had that pounded into me at a young age, and anything else strikes me as laziness. Flame away, but that's my opinion.

On the other hand, I can totally understand how a strict dress code is difficult on parents with growing kids. Perhaps something more lenient could be arranged for juniors, if this is a cost issue?

Heather
Oct. 7, 2002, 10:45 AM
Everybody take a deep breath, LOL.

I'd like to re-iterate my feelings onthe dress code changes:

I too am an "old schooler" on turnout, and I always braid, and even if the rule changed I'd still wear my coat, etc for dressage. HOWEVER, if they are going to make us wear vests in SJ, the PLEASE let us wear polo shirts or somethingelse in SJ. The idea of wearing my vest under my hunt coat is laughable, and the mental picture of it worn over is nauseating and uncomfortable. In Cleavland, can we debate the vest in SJ before we debate the dress coade--then I'll know which way to argue, LOL.

And, we REALLY need to examine the issue of boots at the lower levels. There needs to be an easily attainable exemptions fot leather paddock boots and half chaps, because for many people tall boots are either an impossibility or an excrutiating expereince. I don't think it's fair that these people are excluded because of physical issues. Also, tall boots are pricey, and I wonder how many people never give their local BN horse trial a try because they ride the rest of the time in half-chaps and don't want to buy boots just to try eventing. For this issue, we need to look a little beyond aesthetics, and understnad what other issues may be involved in people wanting this rule changed.

AllyCat
Oct. 7, 2002, 10:58 AM
I agree with the turnout comments here, particularly the Kmart comment /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif I don't have a problem with light shirts and britches for any phase when coats are waived. But I think the ad lib on the dress rules should stop right there. If people want farm colors they can braid the colors into their horses' poll braids, wear a small ribbon or patch on the saddle pad, or some kind of a pin on the jacket label.

This is not a parade. It's a rather strict test of our horses' training and our riding ability. It shows 'em what we bought. Save the wild colored outfits for the stable costume show and gymkhana. We don't want to look like a bunch of yahoos, particularly considering what changes our sport may be facing at the Olympic level.

I braid even for schooling shows. At the last show, the judge made a specific comment on how much she appreciated the turnout of those that braided and tried to spruce up a bit. Some people showed in tank tops which I thought was just horrid. Apparently, so did the judge.

The change in the speed rule is just nuts, but I have to agree with others here. I've seen more gasps from the crowd at competitors jumping fences TOO SLOW than from those going too fast. I always want to cover my eyes when I see this as a fence judge. Not a good reaction when you are supposed to score the fence /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I don't think that riding with a bit is inhumane unless the rider has really crummy aids. If that's the case, they shouldn't be showing. Maybe a bye could be granted to someone showing on a horse with a mouth injury, deformity, or some other problem that would not preclude riding. Letter from vet would probably be necessary here.

--You're the one that insisted on teaching her to talk--Buffy

Gry2Yng
Oct. 7, 2002, 11:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I too am an "old schooler" on turnout, and I always braid, and even if the rule changed I'd still wear my coat, etc for dressage. HOWEVER, if they are going to make us wear vests in SJ, the PLEASE let us wear polo shirts or somethingelse in SJ. The idea of wearing my vest under my hunt coat is laughable, and the mental picture of it worn over is nauseating and uncomfortable <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nauseating! - Well said. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

gooddirt
Oct. 7, 2002, 01:25 PM
"By the way: Coats and braiding were waved at a large event in Area III recently and a little birdie told me it was done because next year that event will have another event placed on the calendar on the same date. It was a PR move to make competitors want to come back next year. "

Yep. Idunnit. I rode at Longleaf in April and I thought no braiding and no coats was a great idea. It was hot. Plus, I rode in a hot event in early Sept. where coats weren't waived and had to peel my coat off after each ride. I resolved not to let that happen at our event. Early in the week of our event the forecast was for hot weather, so I waived coats for everybody with the posting of ride times. It had nothing to do with next year's calendar, which just got changed again anyway. It's the heat. It's a Safety issue.
Glenn Wilson
Pine Top Farm

Daydream Believer
Oct. 7, 2002, 05:26 PM
Good for you Glenn. I also rode at Longleaf too and really appreciated the break from the coats, and yes, the braiding. As I said earlier, I had a long haul in each day as I couldn't stay on grounds as well as having lots of chores to do when I did get home. I also appreciate not having to worry about coming down with heat stroke again by riding in that black coat in the hot sun. Having had that once, I'm at a higher risk and do everything I can to avoid situations like that. I've even walked up to an organizer and asked for them to waive coats when it was humid and nasty. They usually do since most have safety in mind as they should and as you do. I appreciate that you have the best interests of the competitors in mind.

"I never saw a wild thing sorry for itself." D.H. Lawrence

poltroon
Oct. 7, 2002, 05:38 PM
I will gladly swap my hunt coat for a vest for SJ. (I would not be in favor of requiring a vest with a coat.)

I would also not require that vests be ASTM - IMHO the vest standard still needs some research.

poltroon
Oct. 7, 2002, 06:10 PM
Jumper shows have been doing polo shirts for some time now - many/most of those riders choose a dark polo rather than light... I think that can look very classy.

As for temps... I would like to see organizers waive coats at the beginning of the day based on the projected temperature. This way, you know what you will be wearing and there is no "surprise you don't have to wear your coat" after you're already dressed and mounted. People can always choose to wear coats in the morning if they prefer.

Oh! And I agree about neckwear OPTIONAL when coats are waived... but I think my change is even better. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

poltroon
Oct. 7, 2002, 06:13 PM
None of us make errors of test anyway, right? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I'd like to see the method match the straight dressage method - there is no reason to penalize errors more stiffly, and there is every reason to score tests the same way, since often the same volunteers are tabulating them. They don't need to burden their brains with unnecessary complexity. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Gry2Yng
Oct. 8, 2002, 06:02 AM
Poltroon makes a good point on the dressage scoring.

Lower level jumpers wear polos, but when you ride the GP, you wear a coat. Jumpers also don't braid.

poltroon
Oct. 8, 2002, 10:33 AM
What bugs me most is how many of these proposals are written a bit sloppily - particularly the controversial ones - almost ensuring that they will fail (I hope). I am a bit alarmed that even proposals coming out of the eventing committee have this defect.

For example, the bitless bridle one - in spirit I have no problem with this. If you can do a great test in a sidepull, well, more power to you! (I don't see the point in allowing you to ride sans noseband - it can be loose, ya know!)

However, the proposal is incredibly vague and even misleading about what an appropriate bitless bridle would be. The proposer used the word "cavesson" - I presume in an attempt to exclude a mechanical hackamore or a bosal - when I think she meant "sidepull". Pictures should be included, as they are for the bits, or a much clearer wording is necessary. For example, as I read it, I could construct a bridle with a cavesson noseband and a mechanical hackamore rein attachment, and it would be legal under the proposal - which I think was NOT the intent.

On the dress one, I have to agree that it goes much further in allowing "team colors" and the like than I would prefer. I would explicitly state, for example, that shirts should be white, beige, navy, or black, and that breeches should be light colored. I would change the wording about the ASTM vest to say "recommended" rather than "should" - clarifying that it is the rider's option - and I would set up this rule so that a rider has the OPTION of wearing the vest for SJ, and if the rider so chooses, she may wear the vest INSTEAD of the coat.

See how that changes it? Now instead it is meant to make it easy for riders to choose to wear a vest, if they so desire, for SJ, instead of making it difficult to wear a coat.

One change we haven't discussed which I think also has a notable impact on us, particularly since so many of us meet coaches at events, is 030-02, a clarification of the coaching rule to include anyone who stands in or near the practice areas or in-gate, including a personal trainer, sports psychologist, etc, whether renumerated or not - these people would have to sign your entry blank. Thus, if you ask a fellow rider for help, even if you don't pay, that person is supposed to sign as your coach.

Janet
Oct. 8, 2002, 11:51 AM
Yeah, right. When I send in my entry (6 weeks before the event), I know which fellow competitor is going to offer to set the schooling fences for me. AND know how to get in touch with her to sign my entry form.

AllyCat
Oct. 8, 2002, 12:09 PM
Wow, at the last show, a friend of mine asked me at the last minute to help her with stadium warm-up. I did not sign the entry blank as her coach. Oh no! Actually, I was unaware that this was the intent of the rule. The signature for coach is ALREADY on the entry blanks, but it says if applicable. What the heck does that mean?

Guess I need to go read that proposal again. Jeez...

--You're the one that insisted on teaching her to talk--Buffy

poltroon
Oct. 8, 2002, 01:46 PM
Since this is coming from the USA Eq legal department, I think this is very likely to pass.

The original coaching addition was completely toothless, and I appreciate that this is a much more thorough wording. However, I have issues with the practicality.

- I work with a couple of different professionals, depending on who is attending the event. At Opening Date, I won't always know if my first choice is attending.

- I do not ride regularly with anyone who coaches me at an event. Thus, getting the signature requires quality time with a fax.

- Sometimes none of the professionals I work with are attending. I may plan to go without, or I may ask a pro or a buddy to help me at the last minute.

- Once you include unpaid "sports psychologist", you're pretty much including the friend who hands you water before you go in the ring! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As I understand the issue, the concern is that people are teaching/coaching without signing any entry blanks, and thus have not waived liability, etc.

IF that is the issue, why is it my problem as the student? And why must 10 or so students each fax entry blanks around to the same person for signatures?

It seems to me that if liability is the issue, that the right way to go is to make it the responsibility of the coach to fill out a waiver form or whatever when he/she arrives on the show grounds. I think this makes it simpler for everyone, and it means that somone who has already signed an entry blank as a trainer or rider would not need to worry about signing additional entries.

Besides, how many lines are they planning to have for coaches on the 2004 entry forms? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Gry2Yng
Oct. 8, 2002, 02:00 PM
As long as we are on the topic...

The rule book could not only stand some editorial clean up, but a little organization as well. For example, Article 1746 Jumping Obstacles - p.43 states <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The obstacles shall include two doubles, or a double and a triple, except at the Novice Lelel where only one double is permitted.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Appendix 1 - Levels of Horse Trials, p60 states <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Training...The jumping course shall include two doubles or a triple... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A girlfriend brought up that her training course was not legal because it included both a double and a triple. When we got out the rule book I found Appendix 1 first. Later, in search of the answer to another question, I found the contradictory statement in Article 1746.

Here's another!
Article 1738 Cross Country Rules
Section 3 - Errors of Course <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Retaking of an obstacle already jumped is forbidden, under penalty of elimination, except as provided for in Art. 1728.5
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Article 1728 <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Articles 1728-1730 are intentionally left blank for future use. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe the rule book is trying to reference Article 1740.2.2 - <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When tow or more jumping efforts are sited so closely together that after a refusal, ...is twould be unreasonably difficult to attempt to negotiate the seond ...without retaking one or more earlier efforts, ... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It would also be great if we could get blacklined copies of changes to the rules. Some rules have been slightly changed every year for the past two or three and honestly, I forget which is the most recent.

GotSpots
Oct. 8, 2002, 02:25 PM
On coaching: it was always my understanding that the coaching line was for young riders team events, but not for the friend who helps you out in the warm-up ring or the coach/trainer who helps you out occasionally at shows. Otherwise, coaching could be read to overlap with "trainer", which is darn confusing. Does that mean if I'm planning to go to a competition, I need to know six weeks out whether JG is going to be there, and if he is, whether I'm going to be working with him? What if I want to ride with my day-to-day coach/trainer, but walk the course with Jim as well? Is he also my coach? Or what if I go to a show with a group from the barn, and then end up getting help from another owner when the Spotted One decides that other spotted horses in the warm-up ring are very scary?

If the rule is about releasing liability, there already is an appropriate outlet, because the USEA/USAE must have a release from the rider and the owner of the horse (or his/her parent, if a junior). Any action by the rider against their coach could still be brought independently, but I have trouble understanding how a coach could have standing in the first place to sue the USEA or USAE. Moreover, if the rule is about giving the USEA or USAE permission to take action against or kick out a coach who is acting dangerously or inappropriately, I would think that the organization already has grounds to do.

Gry2Yng
Oct. 8, 2002, 02:51 PM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Go get 'em Spot!

poltroon
Oct. 8, 2002, 03:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GotSpots:
Does that mean if I'm planning to go to a competition, I need to know six weeks out whether JG is going to be there, and if he is, whether I'm going to be working with him?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is how I interpret it, and I have the same problem you do.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> What if I want to ride with my day-to-day coach/trainer, but walk the course with Jim as well? Is he also my coach?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was wondering about this too. Since he would be "assisting you regarding your performance" I can only assume that strictly speaking, he should sign (but I'm sure no one would call you on it).

(Ha! Like if I got to tag along on a JG course walk I'm going to hassle him to go to the show office and sign my entry blank. I don't think so! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif And that's assuming that we could do that during the competition.)

tle - I think your subject/header line is a little too obscure given that this has become a pretty meaty conversation. Can you edit it to add the word "Rules"? Gracias!

tle
Oct. 9, 2002, 06:07 AM
Poltroon... ask and you shall receive!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Coaching rule... hate it. Think Spots is right on targer with her arguments against it. I've been literally IN WARMUP and had some type of anxiety attack. JG happened to be there and I asked him AT THAT MOMENT if he'd help me with a few fences. Does this mean he'd have to rush to the office, sign my entry and come back... all in the 10 minutes I had remaining to warm up for my course? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Yeah, right.

I can't see where they can lump unpaid people into this category, either. How can a person on one hand be considered an official "coach" at an event, sign the necessarily liability forms as such, but then turn around and defend their right to maintain their amateur status if they lump unpaid people into this mess?? I went to Mayfest this spring specifically to help out a friend who was doing her first event (couldn't stand the thought that she was going alone with absolutely NO help). I was never paid a dime!! I am also NOT her trainer and in fact do not work with her riding on a regular basis at all. But I did help her warm up for dressage, critiqued her performance afterwards, walked both jumping courses with her, helped her warm up for both jumping phases, critiqued what I saw... hell, I even tried to follow (at a safe distance) her on XC on my bike so I could see more!! I did this so a 16 year old wouldn't have to face KHP at her first event by herself. I am not a professional and that's the first thing anyone hears when they ask my advice. I want to be able to help people in this type of situation, but I don't want to have to get into a battle about my ammy status either!!

No, I can see trainer signatures (due to drug testing and whatnot on the horse), but if the rider has a beef with the coach, its their business, not that of the national organization.

Sorry, kind of babbly... haven't had any caffiene this morning after the late night last night.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

Heather
Oct. 9, 2002, 10:17 AM
So here's my question. I "coach/train/yell at/etc." ,my husband at shows. Always for dressage, and sometimes for the jumping depending on if his regular jumping instructor is there and available to warm him up. I walk the course with him and offer ideas/insights, again, if his regular instructor is not there.

So (a) does this mean I would need to sign his entry? and (b) If I do so does that open me up for loosing my amateur status? He doesn't pay me, obviously, but I am "coaching" him. I also "trained" the horse he rides, and tune it up at home on the flat, but I do that cuz its fun. Does this mean I can't ride him anymore?

I think the idea that we suddenly can't ask for help at an event is ridiculous--how many times have we seen someone struggling in warmup and all alone, and things going kaput, and a kindly pro steps in to help and get them through the warmup and in to their round. Or that if I see someone with a problem (like a leg wrap coming off, or a piece of tack improperly adjusted) I can't intervene and help without signing a waiver.

Terrible, terrible, rule.

poltroon
Oct. 9, 2002, 11:45 AM
I hope you will take the time to go to the USA Eq website and send comments via their comment form.

RAyers
Oct. 9, 2002, 12:00 PM
There is a very simple way around the coaching rule. Sign as your own coach. The proposed rule change removes the statement about renumeration, hence even if you sign the entry, you will retain your amateur status, and even if somebody helps you in the warm-up, you can say you were your coach and that that person was only a ground person there to set rails and to hold your coat. Remember, USAEq would have to prove that you recieved money as a coach to bar you.

Reed

Mariequi
Oct. 9, 2002, 03:37 PM
Any member is able to submit a Standard Proposed Rule Change by 6/1 and committees, councils and staff by 9/15. Extraordinary Proposed Rule Changes are submitted for reasons such as safety throughout the year - see Art. 342. Any member may make comments on all proposed rule changes listed at the main USA Equestrian web site - www.equestrian.org (http://www.equestrian.org) and choosing Rules/Summary of Proposed Rule Changes. You will see a brief description and then are able to pull up the exact text of the proposal going forward to the Board in January or possibly Extraordinary to the Exec Comm beforehand. All comments go to the proponents of the proposals. You may ask that amendments or rewording be considered. I encourage you to do so.

Mariequi
Oct. 9, 2002, 03:41 PM
A committee was begun this year with our own Portia leading the pack and who has already done quick a bit of hard work towards this large project. Hopefully, there will be more time this next year for this worthwhile effort. I would encourage you to share your thoughts at this time - and in the future - with Portia and the Regulation Department of USA Equestrian.

poltroon
Oct. 9, 2002, 06:06 PM
The way I read the proposal, you are expected to get multiple signatures if applicable. I'm not sure that occurred to the original proposer. But still, he included labels like "sport psychologist" so maybe it did.

Eventing is a bit different from the other disciplines in that we have a lot more loose relationships between teachers and teach-ees than elsewhere.

So, can anyone think of a reason (Mariequi? Portia?) why my suggestion of making a separate coaching form does not meet the goals? (I did submit my suggestion "officially".)

Mariequi
Oct. 9, 2002, 06:33 PM
(one of my top 5 fave horses of all times, but that's another story)

When was it that you submitted your suggestion?

poltroon
Oct. 10, 2002, 09:47 AM
A couple of days ago. Should I resend it directly to his email address?

Mariequi
Oct. 10, 2002, 02:31 PM
...for Tracking No. 030-02. Note the committees that have been assigned to review this. One has responded with an action, but the rest have not as of yet. The actions of the committees choosing to comment will be noted as they are received and you can track them. If amendments are made, you will so those and subsequent comments as well. Your comment(s) will not only be forwarded to the proponent, but each of the reviewing committees will be copied. In some cases, they will not see comments until the Annual Meeting. But, no, it is not necessary to contact the proponent yourself unless you choose to do so.

Hope that helps!

subk
Oct. 11, 2002, 07:15 AM
The caoches signature is not just about inconvience.

The way I see it requiring coaches to sign will lead to riders being MORE UNSAFE than the current situation. tle, your situation where someone helped you with a warm-up melt down would lead to "I'm sorry lady I'm not allowed to help you." Then what would you have done--gone into the ring?

I never know for sure if I'll have my caoch at an event so on occassion I'll walk the course with someone who I don't know but who I respect. Trust me, as an adult amature riding Intermeadiate the USEq WANTS me to get assistance! But if I were a professional I sure as HELL wouldn't sign on for liability to help an individual I had never met before!

poltroon
Oct. 11, 2002, 11:48 AM
Mariequi - thanks for the followup. It's good to know those comments will be seen & read before the voting, and perhaps in time to tweak them to be better.

subk - I agree with you - either the coaches will respect the rule, and there will be a lot less coaching - or the coaches will ignore the rule.

I think either outcome is undesirable for equestrian sport in general and for eventing in particular.

poltroon
Oct. 14, 2002, 05:08 PM
Mark Susol on the Ultimate Dressage BB had what I think is a good suggestion - have the coaches sign a release which gets them a badge/armband/whatever that allows them to be in the warmup area. This way the TD knows a release is signed.

tle
Oct. 15, 2002, 06:58 AM
But I don't think that's a good idea either. What happens between the "coach" and the rider should STAY between the "coach" and the rider. Again, what if a friend shows up at the last minute, unannounced and I ask for their help? I can see trainer releases as they are "responsible for the horse" and with the drug testing ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ), that makes some sense. Besides, one ALWAYS knows who the trainer is. But a "coach" is another matter.

And I'm not just saying this to argue with Mark. I can do that on a lot of other subjects. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

poltroon
Oct. 30, 2002, 04:29 PM
Still time to get your comments in on the official USA Eq form.

Weatherford
Oct. 31, 2002, 01:44 PM
Numbers (I am only on page 3 of reading this thread, so, if someone else has mentioned this, my apologies.)

In Ireland (and UK, I believe) you BUY your own pinney ( blank plastic one that holds a number ) and small number holder for the bridle. The organizer gives you printed numbers that fit in the holders (the small holders come with number that fit in the slots). MUCH easier, and saves EVERYONE time, energy and expense. Once you the rider buys one, you have it forever - unless you are like me and either destroy it or lose it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

19 year member of the New Hope clique! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif