The Ultimate Gay Pride Message

[Jair]

Hadyn's post and its possible ramifications have sparked me to write this. Considering the number of members that belong to this BB, I am sure he is not the only boy or young man (or girl) that is struggling with their sexuality. So I am writing this for them in the hopes they see it, and realize that they are not alone and that there are more of "us" out here.

Hello, my name is Jair and I am a 27 year old gay man from the westcoast of BC, Canada. I live with my partner of 3 years and work in the mining industry as a geologist.

I will not lie and say that my being gay has always been easy, since it hasn't. I have met with adversity, been picked on and called names. But that is just a tiny portion of my life. For the most part I have lived my life as any other man out there, I am athletic, I like sports and am good at them, I drink beer as well as the rest of them, and have been known to perform totally stupid an inane acts under the banner of too much testosterone.

So for Haydn or others who are struggling with this - I am not a stereotypical, limp wristed, flutey voiced, caftan wearing and flower arranging gay man that you may be thinking of, and scared of becoming. I am just a normal man. In fact, I am most commonly found in plaid shirts, jeans and a ball cap. You would never know I was gay.

Like all other people, gay men come in different types, shapes, and with varied interests. What's important is who YOU are, and what you do with your life. And its important for you to realize that within yourself - Don�t be taken in by what your buddies may be saying, or what you may hear. There is a lot of negativity towards homosexuality, and you will hear it and you will have to face adversity along the way sometimes, but take it from someone who knows, that the majority of people I have met and cared about in life, have embraced me for who and what I am.

You are lucky too to be in the horse world, for they are a very accepting and wonderful group of people as demonstrated on this BB. Stay with the horses, make friends and they'll probably be with you for life.

Basically, what I'm trying to say in a round about way is

I'm here, I'm queer, and I'm proud of it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Jair
carebearjair@hotmail.com

[Jair]

Hadyn's post and its possible ramifications have sparked me to write this. Considering the number of members that belong to this BB, I am sure he is not the only boy or young man (or girl) that is struggling with their sexuality. So I am writing this for them in the hopes they see it, and realize that they are not alone and that there are more of "us" out here.

Hello, my name is Jair and I am a 27 year old gay man from the westcoast of BC, Canada. I live with my partner of 3 years and work in the mining industry as a geologist.

I will not lie and say that my being gay has always been easy, since it hasn't. I have met with adversity, been picked on and called names. But that is just a tiny portion of my life. For the most part I have lived my life as any other man out there, I am athletic, I like sports and am good at them, I drink beer as well as the rest of them, and have been known to perform totally stupid an inane acts under the banner of too much testosterone.

So for Haydn or others who are struggling with this - I am not a stereotypical, limp wristed, flutey voiced, caftan wearing and flower arranging gay man that you may be thinking of, and scared of becoming. I am just a normal man. In fact, I am most commonly found in plaid shirts, jeans and a ball cap. You would never know I was gay.

Like all other people, gay men come in different types, shapes, and with varied interests. What's important is who YOU are, and what you do with your life. And its important for you to realize that within yourself - Don�t be taken in by what your buddies may be saying, or what you may hear. There is a lot of negativity towards homosexuality, and you will hear it and you will have to face adversity along the way sometimes, but take it from someone who knows, that the majority of people I have met and cared about in life, have embraced me for who and what I am.

You are lucky too to be in the horse world, for they are a very accepting and wonderful group of people as demonstrated on this BB. Stay with the horses, make friends and they'll probably be with you for life.

Basically, what I'm trying to say in a round about way is

I'm here, I'm queer, and I'm proud of it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Jair
carebearjair@hotmail.com

[Everythingbutwings]

Your diplomacy as well as sentiments.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You are lucky too to be in the horse world, for they are a very accepting and wonderful group of people as demonstrated on this BB. Stay with the horses, make friends and they'll probably be with you for life.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This should be a mantra. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Beaner]

You always sound so interesting and a good, positive force for the underdog! But I think your last line should read "I'm here, and proud of it!" I think the term "queer' is mean and belittling to you.(I wish I knew how to insert a smiley face here for you!) I think you're super!

[Blinky]

Jair that was a wonderful message. I'm sure it will help many people on this BB.

I've always felt fortunate that because of the horse world I've been able to meet and make friends with so many types of people. Most people live in such a sheltered world that they are intolerant due to ignorance. I feel pity for those indivduals not for their ignorance but for the fact they are the ones losing out on so many friendships.

[RumoursFollow]

That was fab Jair, you're awesome!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

RF /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Chanda]

Hey, we are all human beings living on the planet earth and we are all OK!!!

Thanks for the post Jair, I think you are a pretty cool person!

[Jair]

Thank you everyone /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I wasn't sure how my post would be reacted too, but I thought I should stick my neck out a bit for the younger members who may be struggling with this issue.

Thanks Beaner - while I don't particularly like the queer word myself, that particular expression is actually a well known mantra within the gay community (I think Jack from Will and Grace says it a lot), plus, it rhymed /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Ann]

It would be impossible to work in San Francisco without meeting many people of the "gay persuasion" /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif. The gay people I know are very intelligent, amusing and successful, although I hesitate to attribute that to their being gay---gay people are no different than any of us aside from their sexual preference. But it does take guts and a singular type of strength to stand up against a disapproving majority and say, "this is what I am, and I'm proud of it."

[This message was edited by Ann on Feb. 15, 2001 at 07:35 PM.]

[wtywmn4]

And bless you. That was an insiteful and excellent post.

[Mazzy]

I love you JairBear!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Everythingbutwings]

Stop trying to sneak Alice out from under us! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[polo]

Great post Jair!! Well written and very worthwhile.

I've just printed it out for my roomate who is in need of just this speech right now!

See....you've already made a difference! *smile*

[Louise]

Thank you for saying that Jair. I think that this BB community would be a much poorer place without you.

[Erin]

Maybe someone (with more time than me! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) can dig up that great "Open Discussion" thread from a ways back. That was a great discussion of this topic...

[B.G.M. heidi]

1. He's compassionate and warm;
2. He's smart;
3. He's open-minded;
4. He's a brave and confident soul in a world that, at times, doesn't want him to be;
5. He promised Alice to me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I shall even forgive him his plaid shirt - dear, you are taking this Canadian lumberjack thing a tad too seriously. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Taryn]

You just made me remember how much I miss all my sisters I had to leave behind in northern California. Know that you are loved even by those that have never met you!

Taryn

[Magnolia]

Go Jair Go!
What a good example you show for anyone who may struggle with this issue!

[Spunky]

At the risk of being redundant (everyone has expressed themselves so well!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Know yourself and be yourself! Happiness will follow, even if the path is difficult.

Jair, thank you for opening up this thread where anyone can feel comforted even if they are "just" a lurker!!

[Lavender Menace]

Jair, I really appreciated reading your post. It came at a particularly opportune time for me as I am struggling with my own homosexuality issues as we speak. The issue is not whether I am or am not (thank god that's over with!) but instead over how very ignorant and narrow-minded the majority of people are concerning this sensitive subject. Currently my girlfriend (22 years old and financially independent) is having World War III with her parents because they refuse to accept her for what she is. They even go so far as to say that THEY WILL NOT LOVE HER ANYMORE OR BE HER PARENTS if she persists with her "deviant lifestyle." I find this to be so outrageous I can hardly keep myself from spitting when I think about it. Can you imagine witholding love from your children because they are different? Can you imagine forcing them to lie to you because they are afraid that you will hate them and reject them? I beg all of you parents to be open-minded if your children come to you with the "news" of their sexuality. The pain and hurt that parents like my girlfriend's cause is irreparable. I think it is wholly unforgiveable.

[Jair]

Thank you SO MUCH for all the kind words! I'm feeling rather shy now... not used to this sort of thing.

(Nice try Heidi /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif Alice isn't going anywhere!)

[DMK]

Great post Jair (and yes, it is important to rhyme /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

I guess what your post reminded me of, is that everyone has their cross to bear, so to speak. There is nobody I know who has gone through life without some crisis or critical event that defines who we are, and shapes us for the rest of our lives. For some it is grappling with what we think society wants us to be versus what we are destined to be, for others, it can be a devastating personal loss, or a failure to reach a goal that has defined our life up until that point.

For most of us, we manage to get past our youth before we are faced with these events, and have the comfortable knowledge of an adult that things will work out ("been to some place very similar, done almost exactly that, I'm still here"). Unfortunately, when you are young, and faced with these events, it is so easy to not see the way out. But I truly believe that a child who can come to terms with such internal or external conflicts will be a much better person, and will love themself which is the first step to being able to love anyone else.

But I will say, I do think the most important thing is to be able to talk to someone else about your fears, concerns and worries. When I was in the throes of teenager-ness, I had to deal with great deal of insecurity about me, and how my peers accepted me, in addition to a lot of family crisis (not unlike many families, mine took the "fun" right out of dysfunctional). To this day, I don't know how I ended up in the school guidance counselor's office, but it was the best thing I ever did. I'm not sure how I would have made it through those days, weeks and months without having that neutral person to talk to, sometimes about things that deeply troubled me, and sometimes about nothing important at all. At the time, I didn't appreciate the benefits of communicating with a trained professional, but that surely helped.

Anyone who finds themselves feeling overwhelmed about their life should really talk to someone else, preferably a trained counselor or other professional. Don't worry about having to "lay it all on the line" right away. Just pick up the phone, make an appointment, stop by the office and talk - that is what they are there for...

[Portia]

Great post, Jair! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

You too, DMK, great insight and advice. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

KatyO, thank goodness your girlfriend has you there for her. Parents who put their child's sexuality above their child herself or himself don't deserve the name "parents."

Thank God our horses, dogs, cats, and other 4-legged loved ones couldn't give a rat's ass (sorry Erin!) about what sex their people are sexually attracted to. Some of the humans in this world should take a good lesson from them.

[B.G.M. heidi]

My bestfriend Jim was closeted for the entirety of his short life, and I cannot stress how much emotional pain that caused him.

Despite the fact that he ventured home for the holidays with his lover, the issue was never broached and his parents continued to hold steadfastly to the false security of a heterosexual son.

Jim lived in fear, self-hate, discomfort, and pain.

Jim was diagnosed with HIV and dead within two years - mostly because, I believe, he'd lost the will and spirit to live. His death was, and will continue to be, a tragedy.

We must live life honestly, with integrity, and on our own terms. Parents cannot expect that their children will fulfill their dreams, assume their burdens, and resemble their vision.

KatyO, at the very least, I am hopeful that your girlfriend has a community of friends who love her and cherish for exactly who she is. It is her family's loss and perhaps one day they will learn to accept the child they have -- not what they'd homophobically hoped for.

And as a parent, perhaps because we have always had wonderful, dear friends (who happened to be gay), it would not upset me or my husband if one of our children were to disclose their homosexuality. It would, though, devastate me if they lived with the pain that Jim did. I wished all parents understood this. At the end of the day, it's the parent who has to change - not the gay child.

[SoEasy]

here is the link to Open Discussion
http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?q=Y&a=tpc&s=691099205&f=602099205&m=909094705
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Heather]

I'd like to add my accolades to the others about Jair's wonderful post.

In addition I'd like to take Jair's words and DMK's a bit further.

The teenage years are, as mentioned, a time of extreme upheaval. And "being different" is bad. I was a 6'0 tall, dark haired tomboy in a world of 5'0 blond barbie sycophants. I didn't fit in at my high school in ANY manner. If I hadn't had the wonderful example and friendship of strong, intelligent horsewomen I would have been crippled by the perception of everything that "was wrong with me." I can only envision this feeling must be ten-fold for gay teens.

It is so, so important for young people who feel different and confused--for any reason--to be able to find an adult they can identify with and look up to as some one who has a happy, fulfilling life--who has "made it", despite all the perceived "flaws" that the teen feels crippled by. I would urge everyone to reach out, or to allow themselves to be reached out to young people who need to see that they're OK--in every sense of the word. If there is a kid at the barn or where ever that "reminds you of you when you were that age", consider reaching out, to see if you can be beacon for them as the cross the rocky seas of adolescence.

[L Scott]

I sent you a personal email, Jair, but wanted to say here that your message really hit home.

Thank you.

[Applesauce]

Jair, what a strong person you are. Congratulations on having figured things out. And even if you really haven't you're doing an awesome job to being well on the way.

Your parents should be proud of the wonderful and insightful person you have become. Whether you realize it or not, you now have a large fan club on this BB. And I'm nominating myself for president!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~Courtney~

[K Spade]

Right on, Jair... For my early life, the single MOST IMPORTANT person in my life was gay (my pony trainer), and you know what I learned? He's no different than me or you or anyone on this board! =) Anyways, thanks for posting this, Jair, you seem like a really nice person!

[jl]

My very dearest friend in college was gay. He came out on the front steps of my apartment building. I felt very proud that I was the first person that he shared his newly found sexual identity with.

I was always amused by the assumption that gay men are easily identified or categorized by their sexuality. John also had a fondness for plaid shirts and beer. I'm a hetro female but if we are using the current traditional female images as portraited in our media- I might not make the cut! I don't look like any of women I see on prime time but it's hard to slop cows and horses in tight jeans and high heels.

John never had a problem accepting who he was but he always felt it necessary to protect his very very devout Catholic parents from his life style. It wasn't shame that prompted his decision but a need to protect two elderly people that might have had a hard time understanding how they had "failed" him.

John contracted AIDS in 1987. It was 8 months from diagnosis to death-he was allergic to just about everything they gave him. His parents were at his bedside when he died. His mother told her priest of 25 years that John would either be buried in a Catholic cemetary with an appropriate ceremnony or she'd become a Protestant.

He was.

[LaurieB]

Wonderful message, Jair!

For twenty years (the time I spent showing Poodles) nearly all my really good friends were gay. The dog show world like the horse show world is a pretty accepting place, and these guys were the outest, most outrageous, funniest, bitchiest bunch you'd ever want to meet. To my constant surprise, however, there were people who were unable to see how special, and how absolutely normal, these guys were. One of the reasons I stopped showing dogs was because AIDS came through the dog world like a whirlwind. Over a relatively short span of time, I lost a number of wonderful friends, and the whole thing just wasn't as much fun anymore.

Jair, I'd be really happy, and really proud, to count you as a new friend. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jair]

Consider us friends Laurie /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Oh, I don't know about the fan club part Big Dreams!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I'm sure I've ruffled a few feathers out there along the way. But you can still be president /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks everyone again for such kind words /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This thread is reading the way I hoped it would. Very positive indeed!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[AHC]

Jair, I was in a meeting all day and just read this. Great stuff as usual.... And if you ever arrive at the barn and see the video of the movie "Alice Doesn't Live Here Anymore" playing, you will know where to look for her.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Tin]

Jair you are a very strong, very brave individual and serve as a wonderful role model to everyone out there! I hope Haydon and any one else in his shoes will be helped with your inspiring posts and that they do the most important thing; to be true to themselves.

*big hug for everyone, little tighter squeeze for Jair*

Two of my close friends are gay and I couldn't picture my life without them, they mean the world to me and for them to be unhappy would kill me inside. For them to deny what they are would be lieing to the world but most importantly lieing to themselves and you can't live like that.

[weeble]

You're words are eloquent and from the heart and I'm sure a great help to many. You have my undying admiration for the way you communicated. your beautiful and positive message. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[SoEasy]

Can I say that reading this thread actually makes me cry? I am so in awe of the strength and grace of our BB family.

And Jair, and Robby too@, I hope that you will both count me among your friends.

[Merry]

Jair, I find you appealing not only because of your open personality, but also your sense of empathy for others struggling with adversity. But most of all, I admire you for having my dream job: a geologist! I SWEAR, that is what I shall be in my next life. I LOVE rocks and earth. My greatest joy was going into Carlsbad Caverns. Seriously! So, I'm your fan for life! What a guy! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Jair]

Thank you for your words Weeble. I don't suppose you're named after those weeble wobble toys? I used to love those! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thanks Tin, Merry my bosom-geologist! and my pal SoEasy too!

(Hands of my Alice AHC!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I shall be after you should she be missing this evening!)

[Ben and Me]

The thing that upsets me the most are the kids my age who seem to think that "gay", "queer", "fag", and "homo" are appropriate put downs. The thing that makes me most angry are the teachers that don't even seem to care when these words are spoken in their classrooms. One of my fondest memories of this year was when a fellow student was told "WE DO NOT USE THAT WORD IN THIS CLASSROOM IN A NEGATIVE MANNER" after joking around with his friend and saying "You're so gay."

The funniest thing to me is that most of the people have friends who will one day be homosexual, or are already. And funny how most of the guys don't have a problem with lesbians-in fact, it seems to be one of every single one's fantasy! Strange... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The media has portrayed homosexuals in such a negative manner up until recent years. It has shown them as being very different-and I think thats one of the big reasons why these homophobic comments are so prevalent.

My father is actually an Infectious Disease doctor, and most of his AIDS and HIV positive patients are homosexual. Thought that was rather interesting-especially since thats what I want to do! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[doubletake]

Standing ovation to you, Jair! /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
I'm sure that you have helped a lot of people reading this understand this topic better. You are a really strong person, Jair! --and Alice deserves you /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif or do I mean you deserve Alice /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Colin]

Jair - You are a true inspiration to many....and you know I love you bunches! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[jreventer]

Jair-you're amazing.
I have been blessed to have been raised by two very open minded parents. When I was young I started foxhunting, there were several gay couples who hunted and still do. To me they were like a married couple and I never thought otherwise. My parents never gave me the opportunity to think they were "different" A couple of years ago two of my coaches(not horse related) divorced their husbands and moved in together. Everyone knew they were lesbians and many of the teenagers had difficulties with it. They often criticized me because these two people were my friends and that never changed. Many of my friends couldn't accept they fact that homosexuality is normal. I am still at times criticized for my relationship with these women-I house sit for them, am good friends with them, the same as before, but many of my friends will no longer associate with them. I have many gay and lesbian friends and they are great. I love them for who they are and wish everyone would be as accepting of diversity as everyone on here is.Ya'll are all amazing.

[weeble]

Just so you know, the name is after those toys...well really their slogan, one I try to emulate in my riding and my everyday life.
"Weebles wobble but they don't fall down!" /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Duffy]

It's an honor to be a part of this BB and to be friends with many of you.

[Gallop On]

There are times when I love this board and all of you people, none of whom I know! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Maria]

Such a beautiful thread. It gives me hope that the world, she is a changin.

My hat is off to everyone who has posted in this thread.

[Regalmeans]

Jair I really appreciate what you said! Two of my best friends in the world are bi and I was the first person one of them came out to and she was terrified - even now hardly anyone knows and it's very very hard for her. I've known people who were gay before - trainers - show people - but somehow when it's my best friends I take everything people say a little more seriously - like people who use 'gay' or whatever as an insult - becuase it's not! I once had to stand up and say that to a teacher who persisted in labelling people as 'gay' or 'homos' for things they said/wore and I just got so upset b/c it's not fair for them to have to deal with that!

Anyways, thanks for posting what you did - hugs to you and I think it's really cool you trusted us all enough to post that for us to read - I may print it out for my friends.

BTW good luck with Alice!!!

Sarah * AKA "Regal's Person"

[WHOA!]

You had a TEACHER who said that ?!! Was the administration ever told about this? That's totally unacceptable.

[Portia]

Rags, sounds like you understand things pretty well. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Kids and teens can be very cruel, whether they mean to be or not, and most of the time they don't realize what effect their words might have. You just have to try to remember that when you're talking to them, and maybe try to remind them that careless words can still hurt.

Regal, any teacher who says those things should be reported to the school administration immediately. Who knows what effect such negative things could have on the young people in the class, who might not see that the teacher is a major league jerk. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Heidi, your friend Jim, my friend Frank -- same terribly sad story. I miss him. It's a terrible thing that he spent his life in fear because he, wrongly I very much believe, thought he couldn't be honest with people about who he was. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Thank goodness things have changed and continue to change! As much as we complain about TV and the movies, TV shows like "Will & Grace" and movies like "My Best Friend's Wedding" show the world that gay and lesbian people are just regular people. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Kennett Square]

Jair, Mon Ami....

I have always adored gay men over the straight men. Way more secure in their beliefs even if inwardly struggling. It's not easy to go through life "not like the rest". I know, all my life I have been overweight. While the two are not one in the same, the world still views you as "different" and you get treated by many unfairly. I have been so lucky in my life to have good friends who have NOT judged me by my appearance that it taught me early on NOT to judge others by any of their beliefs, appearances or sexuality. I would never give up a single one of my "gay" friends just to be thin or have someone think better of me. Those that have stuck with me in the bad times will ALWAYS be with me in the good. I wish more people had the strength to be that way and not worry what their "other friends" would say. I wish you much love and happiness in your and your partners life.

[Jair]

You almost made me cry Kennett Square, mon cherie.

Thank you jreventer, Maria, DQwanabe, Portia for your words. Thanks too to Rags and Regalmeans - how nice to hear that sort of sentiment from the younger generation.

I am at a loss to express how you are all making me feel. But I feel compelled to thank everyone personally each time you contribute to this thread /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif although I am starting to feel embarassed at such kindness /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif and don't know what to say anymore.

Too bad Robby is away - he would know what to say!!

[Everythingbutwings]

Both of you are extremely eloquent.

[Sharon]

Jair

Alice knows you are special but she will keep you humble and on your toes!!!

My younger brother was a fabulous rider- natural balance and a gift for allowing difficult horses to bloom. As I look back, I think his gift for working with horses had a lot to do with his own inner struggles. When he was on a horse, they both looked so free.

He died of aids three years ago and I still cannot believe he is gone. There were stretches in his life when he withdrew from his family. I did not know until he was very sick. It still leaves a great sadness.

You are very lucky that you have found your voice and that you have found a way to speak and a way to stay connected. My brother stopped riding after high school. I will always wonder if his illness would have been easier to bear if he could have been able to keep his connections with horses who really loved him and accepted him for who he was inside.

[Puffin]

What a lovely thing to say Sharon. I could cry now.

You see, Jair is my brother, and I couldn't bare to think of something happening to him. Thank you for sharing your story.

I only found this thread today (my brother neglected to mention it) and I can't say enough about the people here who are responding to it with such compassion, genuineness and shear class.

I'm going to have to visit my brother tonight just so I can give him a hug! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Louise]

Puffin - Give him an extra hug from all of us.

[Ben and Me]

Okay, first the background. My school is having a school-wide "Beauty" project for the new IB program. For my Spanish 1 class, we were asked to cut out a picture of something that we considered beautiful-and then to write a few sentences about why it is beauty and how its related to spanish.

Well, seeing as it is a first year class, and I am seriously lacking in most grammer and vocabulary, I decided that the best thing to do would be to cut out a picture of Ricky Martin. I could say that he is very good looking, and that he is from Puerto Rico. That I could handle.

Well, we all taped our pictures onto large sheets of paper and posted them in the hallway. Today, I'm walking past the picture, and someone had written FAG across the front of it! It really made me angry. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I am by no means a big Ricky Martin fan (Especially not that new song! Ick!) but I do think he's good looking and I thought that would be a good picture to use! Some people.... Ugh!

[Spunky]

You have a great brother! Please give him a hug especially from me, too!!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Spunky

[Magnolia]

This is another Kumbaya moment brought to you by the COTH BB members!
There is so much hate and venom in this world and on the web. It is good to know that there are good people everywhere. Jair - hats off to you for making your post. I think it was a pretty brave thing to do, especially in this day and age!

[Puck]

In absolute awe of your honesty and bravery, Jair. You should be so very very proud of yourself.

[Jenn]

Since I'm not nearly as eloquent as the rest of you, I'll let a quote from a book written by one of my favorite authors do the talking.
Note: the word "shay'a'chern" in this book means gay.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
"I know the natural world as only one who wishes to restore it to its rightful balances can. This is the thing I wish to tell you; in all the world, there are more creatures than just man that make lifetime matings. Among them, some of the noblest - wolves, swans, geese, the great raptors - all creatures man could do worse to emulate, in many, many ways. And with all of them, all, there are those pairings, from time to time, within the same gender. Not often, but not unheard of either."
Vanyel found himself unable to move, and unable to anticipate the direction this was taking.
Now Moondance dropped his eyes to catch and hold Vanyels in a joining of glances and wills that was unbreakable.
"There is in you a fear, a shame, placed there by your own doubts and the thoughts of one who knew no better. I tell you to think on this: the shay'a'chern pairing occurs in nature. How then, 'unnatural'? Usual, no; and not desirable for the species, else it would die out for lack of offspring. But not unnatural. The beasts of the fields are innocent as man can never be, who has the knowledge of good and evil and the choice between, and they do not cast out of their ranks the shay'a'chern. There was between you and your partner much love - only love. There is no shame in loving."
"This I think I have learned: where there is love, the form does not matter, and the gods are pleased. This I have observed: what occurs in nature, comes by the hand of nature, and if the gods did not approve, it would not be there. I give you these things as food for your heart and mind."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Jair]

Wow. That was a beautiful quote. Thank you Jenn.

[B.G.M. heidi]

Don't know if anyone's read this or not - it's rather obscure - but it's achingly, beautifully written: Helmet of Flesh by Scott Symons, published in 1986 by mcLelland and Stewart.

[Jair]

I don't know that one Heidi!

My favourite gay themed book has got to be The Front Runner by Patricia Neil Warren. Beautiful book, although sad. Hayden should probably read it if its in his library.

[B.G.M. heidi]

My book - your Alice. Seems like an even trade to me.

[BronkBusterTX]

GURL!! We need to talk. Where is your sense of gay fashion? LOL!

Just kidding. I just had to flame out there for a minute. (I thought we needed some levity.)

Honestly, I admire you greatly Jair. The courage, strength and surety of self that post took is immense. The GL&TY need more role models such as yourself. (In fact all single gay horsemen need boyfriends such as yourself.) And ladies, it is just as hard for us to find attractive, nice single men in the horse world.

Now I have gotten way off topic.

[wtywmn4]

Oh no Heidi, you will have to get in line with the rest of us for Alice... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Okay, so maybe you are closer in distance..

Jair, good people have good lives. You are GOOD people, and hopefully one of these days we can meet you. Thanks for being on this BB. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[B.G.M. heidi]

I'm not the only one who noted your plaid fashion faux pas! Here's a rhyme for you - Jair, glad to be plaid. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tell you what, I'll give you my book, and throw in Hans' Prada shoes and suit from the winter 2000 collection if you send Alice to me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Jair]

I don't think so!! Not on this board anyways! Right Heidi? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But yes, we do try not to go overboard considering our good consortium of great juniors!

And the plaid is from the Gap Missy! So there! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But seriously, thank you for you words BronkBusterTX. You will find that there are so many great people here on the BB! I had no idea until I started posting, that a forum could be such a great place to meet wonderful people! Stick around and you'll get to special people like Heidi even better!

(and no, Alice for a book is not an even trade! But nice try Heidikins!)

[Jenn]

I forgot to put the name of the book and the author. The book is Magic's Pawn, by Mercedes Lackey. This is a great book! Read it!

[BronkBusterTX]

I'm assuming Alice is a horse?

Anyway....

[Everythingbutwings]

Alice was the best Christmas present we all got this year /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Truly, Jair, it is about time you posted new pics of her.

Jair is a two horse horseman as of this recent holiday past and Alice is the envy of most of us.

Naturally, we are just being supportive having excellent equines of our own. At least we all thought so until Jair posted the
ONE picture! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Jair]

You're funny Wingsy!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

You know considering the reaction dear Alice got to her one picture, I'm afraid to post anymore of them - I wouldn't want to ruin her image! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Portia]

but along the same lines. The following is from Newsweek, Feb. 1, 2001, p. 10, a short piece titled "Monkey Don't Ask, Monkey Don't Tell"

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Amsterdam may be well known for its coffee-houses, but they're hardly the most eye-opening thing the city has to offer anymore. Artis Zoo is running what it calls "gayded tours," on which you may happen upon animals engaged in same-sex acts. But don't buy a plane ticket just yet. The tour is not a peep show, but more something you'd see on the Discovery Channel (Very late at night.) Zoo director Maarten Frankenhuis says his aim is to educate people about opportunistic homosexuality in the animal kingdom. The tour -- which costs $12, the regular zoo admission fee --makes eight stops and lasts more than an hour. (It's by appointment only.) At one attraction, the Children's Farm, visitors can view "young bulls with a preference for their own sex even in the presence of willing females," says Frankenhuis. "We get mostly gay people and mothers with their sons after they've just come out." Dolphins, porpoises, whales, flamingos, elephants, chimps, gorillas -- two by two, there's a veritable ark full of animals who exhibit homosexual behavior, says Frankenhuis, adding that young male goats, when expelled from their family at sexual maturity, will start to mate with each other. "This is when there are no females available. Like in English boarding schools." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That last sentence is clearly tongue-in-cheek, but the point is there -- homosexuality is part of nature, not something to fear or despise.

[PepTalk]

You've made my day! YOU'RE MY HERO! I, too, have been struggling with my sexuality for what seems like forever (only a few years, in reality) and have often thought of suicide. You know what saved me? Horses. Yeah, I know that sounds chessy, but it's true. Without them, I truly believe that I wouldn't be here right now. Just to think about them now makes me smile and thank my lucky stars that they don't care who I spend the rest of my life with. They were there for me with I "came-out" to my mom, and the rest of my family. They were there for me with my father rejected me as who I am as a person and told me that "this is just a phase." They are going to be there when I "come-out" to my older brother this summer (he lives in Arizona right now and I don't want to tell him over the phone). The point I am trying to make is that no matter what, horses will always love me for being ME. Not a fake person who can't be herself because she's afaird to. ( Which is what I would feel like if I couldn't tell the horses in the barn that I am a lesbian.)
It took a lot of guts and courage to have said what you said, Jair, and I thank you with my all my heart. You've made me glad to be a part of this awesome BB and I am so glad to have the pleasure of meeting so many open-minded people here. Thank You, everyone!
" it's not how long you are here, but what you do while you're here." ( From "RENT", hit musical from 1996.
*Hope this makes sense* Sorry for the rambling!

[GailD]

I don't post here very often, but was happy to be told about this thread. You are very courageous, Jair.

All of you juniors who are so supportive, please consider joining your high school's Gay-Straight Alliance. It's NOT just for gay people. It is just what it says, an alliance between people of any sexual preference. There are a lot of young gay men and women who could use your support in person.

It takes courage to join or even start a GSA, but it will be very rewarding in terms of personal growth for you and for those who need your support in your own real communities, rather than just this virtual community. Help change the world--it just takes a small group of committed people to make our world a better place.

Boogey on dudes

[Raincloud]

Many of you probably don't know I even exist on this BB but I wanted to let you know I am proud to be a part of it. You all stand up for one anouther when times are hard and you also know how to joke and have fun.
~EM

[Kryswyn]

Lately I've been spending way to much time on a board where too many people hide behind anonymous postings and sling cr*p at each other. The hatred on that board is tangible. Then I come home to the COTH BB and sigh in absolute joy and relief at the open-minded love-in going on here.

Jair, my favorite book for years has been The Front Runner! It was so helpful when I was trying to learn all about homosexuality when people in my college circle started coming out. Billy Sive.... a hero for all time. Maybe NOW they'll finally make the movie??

My favorite quote:

You can be anybody that you want to be
You can love whomever you will
You can travel any country where your heart leads
And know I will love you still.

You can live by yourself
You can gather friends around
You can choose one special one
And the only measure of your worth and your deeds
Will be the love left behind when your gone

Some girls grow up strong and bold
Some boys quiet and kind
Some race on ahead
Some follow behind
Some grow in their own space and time.

Some women love women and
Some men love men
Some raise children and
Some never do
You can dream all the day
Never reaching the end
Of everything possible for you.

"Everything Possible" is a lullaby that was commissioned by a lesbian when she realized there were no gay-themed songs to sing to her son. It was also the signature song of the Flirtations (a gay group).

Group hug and second verse of Kum-ba-ya

[DocHF]

now doesn't that sound wierd? (Please try and keep an open mind, you guys! Why does it sound wierd?)
Seriously, Jair, I'm going to have to look for you in the local shows, you leftcoaster you, so I can shake your hand.
_______________________________________________
Quote:- I am not a stereotypical, limp wristed, flutey voiced, caftan wearing and flower arranging gay man that you may be thinking of, and scared of becoming.
_______________________________________________
So now I wonder, "What does Jair have against Truman Capote?"

As much as I love Red Green, whose uniform you seem to resemble, it really doesn't matter to me how straight or gay or butch or femme a person wants to appear. The rest of your eloquent post proves it is NOT clothes that make the man, or woman,and that is another one of the things I love about English horsesports. We all dress the same. And man or woman, we all compete on an equal basis. Wish t'were so in the rest of our world.
:* (ok, we don't have a smilie for a kiss, so there it is!)

[BobO]

The Tag at the top of the page says FAQ and is for Freguently Asked Questions. My FAQ is Who cares.
This is a HORSE bb not a S.x BB.
To help a teen ager realize that there are straights I'll play along. To help a 27 yr old whatever (I am not making a PC incorrect statement, I'm avoiding that) pat himself on the back I draw the line.
Go back into your closet or whatever. I don't brag about my life don't brag about yours. And be very sure you follow the rules of civil society that apply to ALL men and women when in public. I'm no prude but straight or other wise don't flaunt it tastelessly.

[B.G.M. heidi]

Because homosexuality is perceived as such a moral sin in our society that a 15 year old is contemplating suicide as a 'remedy' to his possible homosexuality. And I don't know about you but I think it is a TRAGEDY that the suicide rate is 4x greater among gay youth than among their heterosexual peers.

Why should we care? Because gays and lesbians continue to be beaten, insulted, condemned, ostracized, subject to prejudice, social and legal injustices; and beaten to death.

Don't mistake Jair's post as a self-aggrandizing pat on the back. It's rather ridiculous that you would interpret his post as a self satisfied act. His motivations were compassion, concern and empathy. And in reality, it would have been a hell of a lot easier for him to remain silent than opening himself to criticism such as you express.

BTW, I am astounded that you interpret this thread and Jair's original post as blatantly sexual; that you would further accuse him of bragging and ill manners is shocking. The only tasteless thing on this entire thread is your post.

[This message was edited by heidi on Feb. 17, 2001 at 03:56 PM.]

[K Spade]

BobO- that was REALLY rude. And as a junior who quite often is out of line in my actions on this bb and in life in general, I'm still appaled that you would post that...

[SoEasy]

Thank you for saying what I felt, but could not find the right words for.
Jair, please do not take BobO's harsh words to heart. We know you here. We know better.
April

[SomeGuy]

BobO. Aren't we the self-righteous ones...

You've revealed yourself as one of those people that are smart enough to understand what political correctness is and how to incorporate it into your behaviour but you're clueless as to the whys. I'd even go further to suggest, that you feel that you've somehow had to make some sacrifice in the name of being decent.

Well, here's the deal Bob. The right of somebody else to express themselves is pretty fundamental (and is guaranteed by your country's constitution). What's more, it doesn't cost you anything. You haven't made any sacrifice.

And so I throw your question back at you, why do you care?

[Squirt]

BobO- Where in ANY of Jair's post on this thread was he blatanly sexual? I have yet to find them, and I have read every single one. Okay we're going to do a role reversal here. Did you complain once during the ENTIRE thong thread? No that to me was more scandalous than this thread lending support to a very troubled young man. Why was the thong thread okay and this one wasn't? Because it discussed homosexuality? Double standard much?

Jair I commend you for posting this, it took guts and compassion. The glb community is very lucky to have you. I also know what you mean about not all gay guys are "limp wristed flower arrangers", although I've met more than a few of those. My BEST friend and surrogate father is openly gay. When I first moved my horse to his barn before I knew him I really didn't know one way or the other. I was confused because I knew that he had three kids, but that he also owned a gay bar. Being naive, It didn't occur to me that gay men could have kids before coming out. It did occur to me that a straight man could own a gay bar though. Another reason was that he is the most masculine man I have ever met in my entire life.
I'm sad to say that I will never get to meet his significant other in this life as he was killed three years before I met Jim.
Now, I work in the aforementioned bar and I LOVE it, I wouldn't trade the experience and the people I've met in there for the world.

*Virtual Bear Hug*

[Inverness]

"Tasteless" BobO? Tasteless is as tasteless does.

[SomeGuy]

No tasteless would be me saying, "Jair rocks!" (because he's a geologist).

[BronkBusterTX]

Bobo, what is the deal with you? How can you say that Jair is self-aggrandizing? Looking for a pat on the back? Please! He was only looking to help a young kid realize that he was not the only one in the world who had it rough.

That you would find fault in this surprises me. And there is an old saying...Thou dost protest too much....

[wtywmn4]

Guess you haven't been around this BB very much BobO. Or you would have read some the very eloquent threads prior to this one!!!! Jair is NOT back patting, but helping. Our society in general, is homophobic. So BobO does the shoe fit?

[B.G.M. heidi]

No, honey that's not tasteless; merely a bad joke. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Louise]

I have been away from the computer all day, so I didn't see your latest post until just now, BobO. Pretty much everything has been said, but I do want to add my voice to all of those telling you that you have made a pretty rude and stupid statement.

Sometimes it is best not to speak, if you don't know the person you are talking about. Take the time to read some of those past posts others have mentioned. Then maybe you'll get an idea of what kind of person Jair really is!

[BobO]

I do not use PC except to show how rediculouse it is .
You all are SO PC. You are as ... I stopped myself on that old comment.
You all say Freedom of speach BUT only if its PC and you THINK Gay is PC.
Just read the negatives you just posted and look for MY freedom of speech, my freedom to disagree.

And Hayden, do not get brain soaked by these bleeding heart .... Your only gay if YOU say you are.

Good bye for now.

[B.G.M. heidi]

It is sad BobO that you equate compassion and kindess, concern for one's fellow (wo)man, as a capricious social trend, interpreted by you as a verbal straight jacket.

I mean, BobO, it would be just as easy for me to assert, on the mere basis that you are a straight 50-something man, that you are fat, bald, your old bones inhibit you from riding well, resentful, desparately mourning a lost youth; and probably in need of Viagra. Just as you assert, from Jair's original post, that he is gratuitously flaunting his homosexuality, bragging and engaging in 'uncivil' behaviour.

I hope the above was acceptably non-PC for you BobO. I'm a just following your lead BobO! And thank god that being non PC also comes with it compelete disreggard for sppellinge.

[SoEasy]

We are not PC. We are caring people, who know that other caring people should be accepted for their goodness and caring and compassion for others. We really don't see that who you love is anywhere near as important as THAT you love someone.
It wouldn't really hurt, BobO, to feel some compassion for others, to really care about them as people. You do have freedom to speak - and to disagree with our thoughts ... but not to be rude or crude. There are people here who feel strongly about a variety of things, who disagree with each other, but have found a way to have a civil dialog. All we ask is that you do the same.

April

[BronkBusterTX]

LMAO!! (I don't have much of one so maybe I should not laugh too hard.)

BOBO-

You are entirely correct. You do have the right to free speech. Just as much as we do. (I hope your free speech is spoken better than it is typed.)

And what is this theory that you are only gay if you say you are? Please, no one can be that ignorant. Homosexuality is neither a choice nor a disease. It just is. If you don't like it, too bad. Homosexuality is never going to go back into the closet. My suggestion, DEAL WITH IT!

About the politically correct issue, I was once young and stupid and believed I did not need to be "PC". All I can say is that at some point in your life you will realize the error of that philosophy.

M.

[Portia]

Bob, you and I have met in person, and I like you and your wife very much. But I strongly disagree with you very much on this issue.

I asked you to post something supportive on the Hayden thread because I thought it would be good for him to have additional support and input from a straight male who rides hunters and jumpers, and I do appreciate that you did that. I asked you to become involved not knowing this is how you felt about the topic, and that is my fault.

The only reason this subject is being discussed on these boards is because of the situation with a young teen who expressed his extreme confusion and doubts about himself, arising in part because of his love for horses and hunters, and the fact that it is a sport largely dominated by females and not treated as a "guy's sport" by other teen agers in this country. Jair was trying to be supportive, and I personally very much appreciate his efforts and caring.

As I just posted on another thread, this is not going to become a gay and lesbian BB. It is and shall remain a horse BB. We most certainly have differences, even profound differences, in our feelings on any number of topics outside of horses. But we do love our horses and our sport, so whatever our other differences we have that in common.

Please, don't let this thread degenerate into name calling and social debate, away from the caring purpose for which it began.

[ErinB]

I think, BobO, that if you take the time to understand the caring and compassionate attempt Jair made at helping an obviously self-doubting teenager, you will find the meaning behind his post to be very different from what you assumed. I'm sorry you don't feel the same way as I do, because I've found this thread, and its precedents, to be very informative and they shined some much-needed light onto a misunderstood "taboo" subject.

Yes, you do have freedom of speech. So do Jair, Hayden, and everyone else involved. I noticed, also, that you sort of "bleeped out" the word "sex" in your original post. It isn't a dirty word, and perhaps that is where the American public gets its fear of homosexuality in general. Perhaps if we actually made an EFFORT to understand it, we wouldn't hate it, fear it, or find any dirtiness in it. What message are we sending kids like Hayden if we start censoring out such important issues? Just a thought.

Jair- You're really cool, you know that? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

:*::Erin::*:

[Jumphigh83]

Leaving ALL mention of sexual orientation out of this...Why is it so hard to lend a helping hand or heart to someone who obviously needs it? BobO, I am shocked at your viewpoint...Not that you don't have a right to feel anyway you want about this issue of gay straight whatever AND you have the right to voice the same on this BB or any other, you DID NOT have a right to completely humiliate and degrade a person, esp a kid, when he is asking for a little help and compassion. You don't HATE the sinner, you hate the sin...Since you were being so militant I might add that a militant "anything" is offensive..esp one that has such a "holier than thou" attitude about what is and is not the correct way to live one's life. I am really shocked at your point of view. And kind of sorry for you. You must be a lonely person standing alone out there on that tall pillar of moral superiority.

[wtywmn4]

Once again Portia, you are the voice of reason. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I for one have never been PC, and don't care to be labeled. Hmmmmm, does that sound familiar? And yes, freedom of speech is something we all are entitled to BobO, along with the rest of the constitution.

Just felt your verbage could have been written in a less argumentative tone. But if thats the way you want to be, then so be it. Adios

[K Spade]

BobO, you are really rude! Everyone IS entitled to freedom of speech, but one would think that an educated adult would have enough sense to be polite. True, you can say whatever you want, but what you have been saying only makes you look really ignorrant. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Robby Johnson]

OMG! I leave for two business days and all Gay Heck breaks loose! As Madonna said in her "SEX" book, "I felt like I was in the movie 'Shampoo' and I only had a small part!"

Great post Jair! Thanks to everyone else for their kind words. I am still curious if Hayden ever resurfaced. I sent him an email message Wednesday night before I left but never heard anything.

As horsemen and horsewomen - of both sexual identities - we share a really common passion and bond ... horses. So I think if we can all offer honest support to each other where our horses are concerned, we should be able to offer it to each other where ourselves are concerned.

BobO - I think you likely missed the point of Jair's OP - that it's OK for a person to be gay and that it's OK to seek out other people to talk to. Jair made himself accessible and that was a very generous and admirable thing to do.

Robby

p.s. I'm accessible too!

[Jair]

My sincere thanks to everyone who so eloquently defended me over the weekend whilst I had no idea that I had been disparaged in such a fashion.

Luckily my original reaction to BobO's post has been tempered after reading such eloquent and well written responses. Everything that needed to be said has. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

While I didn't appreciate the personal attacks at all, BobO is entitled to his opinion. Perhaps if he disagrees with something in the future though, he will take a little more time to write down his reaction in a more practical manner rather then resorting to personal vendettas.

(glad to have you back Robby!)

[ClipClop]

Being homosexual is a choice though, IMHO. Please don't flame me for this, but I know there are others on this board who feel the same way and just have not spoken up. I don't think people realize that is and can be a choice that you can make. I would never condemn someone for being "gay" but however, do I feel it's right? I don't know.

[This message was edited by ClipClop on Feb. 19, 2001 at 01:01 PM.]

[Spunky]

A choice to be yourself, or not to be yourself.

Jenn's quote from Magic's Pawn, by Mercedes Lackey was one of the most beautiful things I have ever read.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Spunky

[Canter]

Jair - Sheesh, I go away for a long weekend and look at the controversy going on here. I guess Bobo's response to your thread is a tiny example of some of the hurdles thrown your way.
I would like to add my thanks for your compassionate honesty. I don't know if the person asking for advice is a troll or not, but for you to try to reach out and lend support shows what KIND of person you are, not what TYPE. Gay or straight, I don't really care. Caring or cruel is what matters to me.

*virtual hug*

[Jair]

Definitely no flames for you ClipClop /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But I do disagree with you that being gay is a choice. As Spunky so eloquently put, its a choice whether you are true to yourself in terms of living your life the way you want.

As for choosing to be gay? In most cases I'd say no. I was born gay, nothing made me that way - I have two very straight older brothers who were brought up exactly the way I was - so how come they're stratight and I'm not?

While I think there are instances of someone choosing to be gay, particularly in the case of abused women, who have suffered so horribly at the hands of men, that they turn to other women for comfort. Or for extreme feminists who choose to be lesbians because they just hate all men anyways - that has happened for sure. But from my experience, and the thoughts of my gay friends, none of us chose to be gay.

We did choose how we would live with it though, whether openly or closeted, or some middle road.

Why do you think its a choice ClipClop? I'm interested in your rationale.

(thanks Canter!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe you shouldn't go away again! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[A. Murray]

And a hug from me as well!!

Anne

[Magnolia]

ClipClop-
I agree - our sexual orientation is a choice. I think that too much baggage is put on that choice by our society. If somebody wants to be gay, that is fine, as is somebody who wants to be straight. By alienating people who make the "wrong" choice, we've created a lot of hardships and discomfort thru the years.
I do get wary of people who flash their minority status as a way to be above reproach for poor behavior, or flaunt it for attention, but I don't think Jair was doing either - just helping out a confused kid! I had an acquaintance in college who was a militant vegan, and a lesbian, and she had the hugest chip on her shoulder against men and meat eaters, and her preaching got so old. She tried to recruit people to become lesbians. She was a nutcase (and still is!). Maybe BobO has run into people like that and is wary of Jair...

[ClipClop]

I think society has tried to push homosexuality these last few years. I really do think it is our choice though. I think most people on this board know this now, but I'm a strong Christian. No, Im not going to flame anyone here, because wouldn't that just be hipocrosy? However, everyday, we all have choices to make, we all have the choice to rob that bank, but do we? No, because most people know that would be morally and lawfully wrong. No, Im not trying to convert anyone, and Jair I love you for who you are, and I would never ever say that you are a bad person for your descions. They are yours alone to make, and Hayden, I hope you make the correct one for you.

[B.G.M. heidi]

ClipClop, I think you are most likely a wonderful and compassionate person.

I do wonder though, if sexuality were truly a matter of choice, Matthew Shepard would have 'chosen' to be gay.

[Velvet]

Okay, I'm not about to get into the controversy out here over choice or no choice, but I do have something to throw out that I found quite interesting.

I don't have the stats, but I remember hearing somewhere about the percentage of homosexuals in the U.S. vs heterosexuals and that basically the homosexual groups are a very tiny minority with a very loud voice. I found it interesting. I just thought there were a LOT of homosexuals coming out of the closet, but it turns out that the group as a whole has just become much more vocal and is gaining leverage in some states for governmental decisions.

Just a "hmmmm...." nothing more.

[Robby Johnson]

about homosexuality, is the choice to be honest about it.

No one would choose to be gay, ClipClop. Why would it be advantageous to put yourself in a position to be insulted and threatened continuously? Why would teenagers contemplate suicide over it? Choosing to be gay, in a homophobic, heterosexual-ruled world, has zero value if you look at this from a survival perspective.

Your heart is in the right place, though. You're kind and considerate and that says much! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Robby

[BronkBusterTX]

Robby Johnson? What the heck do you mean by being accessible?

Anyways...

Choice? What choice? I don't remember ever making a CONCIOUS DECISION to be gay. Did you make a CONCIOUS DECISION to be straight? Did my mom? I know my dad made a CONCIOUS DECISION to be straight, at least for 6 years. Then he made the CONSCIOUS DECISION to be honest with his family, friends but more importantly with himself.

And as for the US Population being approximately 10% GBL&T, OMG PLEASE! That is the percentage that made the CONSCIOUS DECISION to admit to being gay/lesbian/transgendered. I wonder what percentage is, of the nations population has not made the CONCIOUS DECISION to be honest with themselves.

[LaurieB]

I don't think any of us, straight or gay, makes a conscious decision about who we're attracted to. If I (a heterosexual woman) walk into a room filled with people there will be some I find sexually attractive and others I won't. I don't choose that. It just IS.

In my case, I'll automatically check out the men. Again, not a choice, something that just happens. Will I find all of them attractive? No. But--once again--I'm not making a choice, I am simply reacting instinctively at the most basic human level.

To me, making a choice about who I'm attracted to would involve making decisions like "I only want to marry a rich man" X is rich, therefore I will find him attractive. Do I think you can do that? Yes, I think it's perfectly possible for money to become a sexual turn-on. Do I think that gay people think to themselves, "I only want to be attracted to my own sex?" NO! Why on earth would they? For whatever reason, God made some people gay and some people straight. It would be nice to think that He knew what he was doing. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Portia]

Well said, LaurieB.

When I as a heterosexual woman go to the movies, I look at Michelle Pfeiffer or Julia Roberts and think, "wow, she's a really beautiful woman. I'd love to have her checkbones/figure or whatever." When I look at Tom Cruise or Pierce Brosnan, I have totally different thoughts about what I'd like to have. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But like you say, that's what is perfectly natural for me, not a choice I have consciously made or could consciously make.

When you see how so many homosexuals suffer with coming to terms with themselves and with society, it's simply not a choice that anyone would willingly make. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Jair]

You've got that right Portia.

[B.G.M. heidi]

For those who assert that sexuality is a choice - I'd point out that, on that basis, it would and should be just as easy for you to choose to be gay.

[Robby Johnson]

Your dad is gay too? How cool! (Sorry, everyone else, but I think it is.) You must have a lot in common. And what a gift you must be to him.

Regarding my "accessible" comment ... get your head out of the gutter! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Only Madonna can pull off the "All Access" thing!

I meant that Jair made himself "accessible" as a gay man to anyone who might have questions or who might want to have a cerebral discussion about homosexuality. He staked his claim as a SME (subject matter expert). As did I, in my postscript.

ClipClop, I also thought of a recent development which made big gay news (you can probably read about it at www.advocate.com). (http://www.advocate.com).) One of those "reformed" homosexuals who made the "choice" that you refer to, was found smack up in a gay watering hole in DC. He'd been there 45 minutes before he was recognized, and then claimed he'd happenend by the place and needed to use the bathroom.

Robby

OBH: Going riding tonight. Going hunting, for the first time, this weekend. I get to ride a real life imported Irish hunter!

[This message was edited by Robby Johnson on Feb. 22, 2001 at 12:08 PM.]

[hobson]

For those who think that one's sexual orientation is chosen, can you pinpoint the moment you DECIDED to be heterosexual? I sure can't.

I love this quote (can't remember where I heard it): "I don't mind heterosexual people, as long as they don't try to force their lifestyle on me!"

I'm not sure, ClipClop, why you perceive homosexuality as something being increasingly "pushed" these days, since I've noticed the opposite. For each legislative or policy victory eked out in favor of gay rights, there's been a backlash. The Defense of Marriage Act comes to mind - after Hawaii made moves to legalize gay marriage, our esteemed national congressmen decided that this somehow threatened all other hetero marriages and asserted that a male-female couple is the ONLY legitimate form of marriage.

And Colorado is a state worth watching - it's known as a "bellwether state" in political science circles, because policy initiatives there often foretell how the other states will lean. I'm worried about Colorado because there is much legislative action AGAINST civil rights protection in terms of sexual orientation.

And of course, the popularity of Eminen speaks for itself - millions of music consumers are perfectly willing to forgive him his violently anti-gay messages "because he's such a great musician!" they say. I've noticed that if this sorry excuse for an artist didn't have gay people, he would not have much at all to sing about.

[Robby Johnson]

What an awesome post.

I couldn't bring myself to watch Elton John perform last night with Eminem. Definitely an all-time low for Elton.

And what would Eminem be without samples from truly talented artists? I hate the fact that he bastardized the lovely and talented Dido's "Thank You" for his stupid song.

A friend of mine, who just turned 30, is dating a guy who is 23. He is from Iowa. He is incredibly hung up on the popular culture of his generation. My 30 year-old friend is apparently having a mid-life. They go out clubbing every weekend and have a "pre-party" at his house before they leave (things I did at 23, too). My 30 year-old friend is now using popular catch phrases like "in the day," which is very Gangsta-inspired.

The first time we had dinner with them, I got on my soap box about the demise of society and how we celebrate a person like Eminem, who, to me, is talentless.

23 year-old spoke up and said, "I would disagree with that. He is really capable of writing awesome rhymes." I replied, "you're obviously easily impressed. How hard is it to write a rhyme? Average 4th graders do it every year as part of their English class."

Rap music was originally a method of expression about life in the ghetto. And now it's become more fashionable to talk about acts of violence. So either life in the ghetto has gotten really, really bad, or the rap genre has become it's own living breathing ghetto.

I'm inclined to believe the latter.

Robby

[hobson]

Hey, Robby

[blushing at presidential nomination - thanks, but I'm just not electable!]

I'm with you on that. I remember when rap was a politically provocative, very progressive and interesting art form. Now it seems to have degenerated into a sexually childish and anti-intellectual booty call. Very disappointing. I have politically active African American friends who really despair about this artistic institutionalization of misogyny and homophobia.

[Jumphigh83]

The pinial body in the brains of gay men are very different than the same structure in a "straight" man. In fact, they are similar in size to that of women (straight women) You don't "choose" to be gay (or straight) you are born that way. If you were able to choose and society being what it is why would any gay person want to go through what ignorant people put them through..ridicule, social stigma etc...they could choose to be "straight" and avoid all that crap. Anyone who thinks that they can "choose" should take a day or a week and "choose" to be the opposite of what their orientation is "naturally"...good luck. You are what you are and god bless you. The choice is only in HOW you deal with your orientation. WHo cares what people do when they close their bedroom doors at night??? I don't need all that information. Just like you can't have a bad breed on a good horse, you can't have a bad sexual orientation on a good person.

Oh Jair..My HUSBAND owns a flower shop so stp the stereo typing!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl]

You know, some people got a lot of nerve. Sometimes I don't believe the things I see and hear.

Have you met the woman who's shocked by two women kissing and, in the same breath, tell you she is pregnant? But gays shouldn't be so blatant.

Ot this straight couple sits next to you in a movie and you can't hear the dialogue because of the sound effects. But gays shouldn't be so blatant.

And the woman in your office spends an entire lunch hour talking about her new bikin drawers and how much her husband likes them. But gays shouldn't be so blatant.

Or the "hip" chick in your class rattling like a mile a minute, while you're trying to get stoned in the john, about the camping trip she took with her musician boyfriend. But gays shouldn't be so blatant.

You go into a public bathroom and all over the walls there's John loves Mary, Janice digs Richard, Pepe loves Delores, etc, etc. But gaays shouldn't be so blatant.

Or you go to an amusement paark and there's a tunnel of love with pictures of straights painted on the front and grinning couples are coming in and out. But gays shouldn't be so blatant.

Fact is, blatant heterosexuals are all over the place. Supermarkets, movies, on your job, in church, in books, on television every day and night, every place - even in gay bars - and they want gay men and women to go and hide in the closet.

So to you straight folks I say,"Sure, I'll go if you go too. But, I'm polite, so after you."

-Pat Parker


I was looking for this poem a few days ago to share, but just found it. So there's a few seventies references, but food for thought for a few, I hope.
The world I am creating for myself, and invite you to join in, is one in which it is no more blatant for me to mention my partner and our plans than it would be if she were male.
Slowly, I believe it is happening.
On a lighter note, you know the saying - better blatant than latent...:)

[BronkBusterTX]

You should not have mentioned that name! Now I'm having unclean thoughts! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Robby my mind is always in the gutter!

And my dad is WAY COOL! Thanks for the nice words. He thinks I'm pretty special. (Don't think I don't take advantage of that!)
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Zaboobafoo]

This post definitely caught my eye...and how interesting it was to see all the different views of so many different people...its really encouraging that so many people are becoming open-minded....

Its such a closed-minded society we live in...always judging, discriminating...its such a fit to avoid being the "mold", forced into what society wants you to be...and then you are so shunned when you are not.

I think the most important thing is just being comfortable with who you are. I have found my comfort level with who I am, not just as a person, but within my sexuality as well. I have walked both sides of the fence, and yes it is something I encourage others to do. I feel everyone should be true to themselves...let your urges guide you and realize there is NOTHING wrong with it. I find people attractive. Is that bad? I consider myself lucky...the world is a very beautiful, enjoyable place!

I don't label myself. I just consider myself open minded....affectionate to those I love...and I follow what I feel. I'm TRUE to myself. And that is how society should be.

As for "pushing" gayness onto people....people don't do things they don't want to. I think as being sexuality attracted to the same sex becomes more and more accepted, people aren't fighting it so hard. Its been in history for CENTURIES to have intimate relationships with someone of the same sex. Why do we play it as bad thing? The church is going to condem you for loving? How can acts out of love and passion be wrong?

I'm just a young girl growing up in a society where too many people don't take the time to stop and understand and love...the world could be such a beautiful place if we'd stop passing judgement and feel with our hearts instead of rules....

[ohnowwhat]

That's all. OMG.

[Kimberley]

Wow, what a wonderful topic Jair - I just found it! I hope it saves some young kids years of heartache over their sexuality.
My husband's brother is gay and he even kept it from his twin until he was 20. He could not bear to tell his parents until he was 24. It took the parents years to accept it because they were always taught that it was sinful. Now, through education they understand sexual preference.
Homosexuality exists in every animal kingdom yet only in ours (suppose to be the highest) is there such discrimination. Sad isn't it?

[CraZ4Horses]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jl:

John never had a problem accepting who he was but he always felt it necessary to protect his very very devout Catholic parents from his life style. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I remember correctly, the Catholic church is accepting to gay people adn treats them normally. The one difference is that they will not allow them to be married in the church because it goes against the beliefs of the church. But anyway, AWESOME post Jair. It's good to see that people aren't ashamed to be themselves. Right on! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[lmlacross]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BobO:

And Hayden, do not get brain soaked by these bleeding heart .... Your only gay if YOU say you are.

Good bye for now.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BobO-- I think I remember you from ages ago on the old Equisearch boards. No one's trying to brainwash Hayden into being gey-- certainly, that's the more difficult lifestyle choice in today's society. We're just trying to let him know that gay is just as viable an option as straight, and he should be happy with whatever he feels, and whoever he loves.

Obviously, he feels such pressure to conform to our society's ideals of what a man is, what/who a man does that he has become very distressed. We are trying to help him realize that being gay is just another path life has for some of us, no better or worse than anyone's elses.

You chastise us for being P.C... BobO, there's a difference between being PC and simply being compassionate for someone who is struggling. We want Hayden to know that HE'S OKAY- regardless of who he loves. Obviously, society at large has provided him with so much information to the contrary that his health and well-being are in question. No one's asking you to be a gay rights activist, but being humane and compassionate would be a start.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*
*Cripple Clique*

[lmlacross]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClipClop:
I think society has tried to push homosexuality these last few years. I really do think it is our choice though. I think most people on this board know this now, but I'm a strong Christian. No, Im not going to flame anyone here, because wouldn't that just be hipocrosy? However, everyday, we all have choices to make, we all have the choice to rob that bank, but do we? No, because most people know that would be morally and lawfully wrong. No, Im not trying to convert anyone, and Jair I love you for who you are, and I would never ever say that you are a bad person for your descions. They are yours alone to make, and Hayden, I hope you make the correct one for you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ClipClop,

I think your assertion is incorrect, at least for me personally. Absolutely, we all have choices to make. Who you love is not one of them- we are born with that predisposition. Do you choose to engage in personal relationships wit hthe opposite sex? Yes-- but that choice is a direct result of deeper, innate desire to do so. Why would this be any different for a person who is attracted to individuals of the same sex?

Yes, we can choose to ignore what our hearts and minds tell us is right, out of fear of societal opinion or out of some ingrained respect for an omnicient god who would disapprove. As others have said, one can choose to be his or herself, or not. The latter is a hollow, lonely life indeed.

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*
*Cripple Clique*

[SBT]

...I do have something to say that I don't think has been said yet.

I will admit to being somewhat of a homophobic. I am a religious person, and I believe that homosexuality is Biblically wrong. THAT SAID...
Should I really concern myself with what OTHER people do in their PRIVATE lives? Since when is other people's sexuality any of my business? Is it MY job to condemn someone based on their private life? Is it up to me to make a big deal out of someone ELSE's sexual preferences? And is this whole thread really appropriate?

The point is, I really don't care, and personally I am absolutely sick and tired of the whole gay vs. straight and straight vs. gay arguements. To me, it is a moot point. People are going to make their own choices. As long as those choices don't affect ME, why should I care? ESPECIALLY if those choices are of a private, personal nature. Do we care, or even ask, what brand of condoms/tampons/contraceptives/renal suppositories people use? NO! So why should I care about the relationships of people I don't even know? Why should I care what OTHER people are doing in their bedrooms? Why, when I see two women holding hands, should I assume they are gay and not just sisters, or best friends? Why should I EVER be afraid if people think *I'm* gay?

Why? Because SOCIETY tells me I should. Society thinks intimate relationships should be everyone's business. Society thinks we should make a big deal out of "deviant" behavior, and that we should judge people based on their preferences. Personally, I could care less what society says I should think and do and believe. I have chosen my own way of life, and my own set of values and beliefs. And that includes abstinence from the whole "gay issue."

If anyone asks what I think, I will simply say, "I am straight, I feel that homosexuality is wrong, but what other people do is really none of my business. And I am deeply offended by people who think it should be." That's it, in a nutshell.

Digging out the flame-retardant suit... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~Sara /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

"If you stand for nothing, you will fall for anything."
~Member of the "I Know the Secret of the Universe" Clique. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[MIKES MCS]

It's 2002 and I can't believe this is still an issue, Why? I have been around the Hunter /jumper world since I was a small child in the 60's and I know there were plenty of Gay men and women back then, but who cared, maybe because I was a child I only noticed the kind of rider a person was. What difference does it make, a persons sexuality doesn't make them a better rider or give them a set of hands. It has nothing to do with the kind of teacher or trainer you are. My gosh when in the world are we all gonna get over ourselves, we are all just people how can one person judge another or even have the right to over something such as trival as this. How is the human race going to survive if after all this time we still concern ourselves with such petty discrimination and hate. Sometimes I think God created the animals with more brains then he gave humans, our horses only judge us by the softness of our hands and the kindness of our voices, ( and LOL the amount of treats we give them).