Holding up Show rings!

I was new to zone 2, last year and one thing in noticed was the great deal of time and effort went into the shows in general.
I got a chance to take my greenie last year, and I am bringing another one up this year. Here is my gripe. Has anyone else noticed this?
I noticed the great amount of time wasted on holding up the show ring, waiting. One show in particular stuck out in my mind. They were waiting on a Trainer. The student, not a young child, but an adult would not go into the ring to do here round because here trainer was not ringside.
Has this become common practice? Isn't it the point of Horse shows, that you school longer, bigger etc.. at home and when you go to a show you should be ready for the class you entered?

I was new to zone 2, last year and one thing in noticed was the great deal of time and effort went into the shows in general.
I got a chance to take my greenie last year, and I am bringing another one up this year. Here is my gripe. Has anyone else noticed this?
I noticed the great amount of time wasted on holding up the show ring, waiting. One show in particular stuck out in my mind. They were waiting on a Trainer. The student, not a young child, but an adult would not go into the ring to do here round because here trainer was not ringside.
Has this become common practice? Isn't it the point of Horse shows, that you school longer, bigger etc.. at home and when you go to a show you should be ready for the class you entered?

[Flash44]

You are so right, Renee, but then how would trainers justify their coaching fees if they did not watch your round? http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif My 2 1/2 year old human son loves the "eyes," so you may be seeing a lot of them from me. No pun intended.

[MsRidiculous]

My trainer would have my head if I even considered going into the show ring without him there. How is he supposed to help us learn from our mistakes if he isn't there? And what if we had some sort of problem and didn't know how to fix it? He'd have to rely on our best guess as to what was causing it. Nope, I'd NEVER go into any class without some kind of trainer there.

[ShaSamour]

Renee, this is my pet peeve. This happens alot at shows, even with flat classes. I've seen Childrens Hunter Horse u/s classes held because the child (like 16 yrs old, and showing at 3' at A3 shows) wouldn't hack without her trainer there. Some trainers are worse offenders than others, somehow drilling into their students that they can't do anything unless the trainer is present. This inconveniences many exhibitors, and probably the ring crew too. The solution is to put a clock on the gate and enforce it. Unfortunately, I don't think show management wants to offend these trainers by closing out their customers that way -- these trainers bring lots of people to shows. The other solution is for some of these trainers to hire assistants, but in some cases, I think arrogance or ego prevents. Very sad.

This is not to say that novice riders or young children should do their rides unsupervised. But in cases of adults or advanced riders (like the A3-level Children's Hunters or Medal/Maclay riders), they should be able to do their thing by themselves in the event of a conflict which is holding up the entire proceedings in another ring.

[This message has been edited by ShaSamour (edited 02-10-2000).]

[Ghazzu]

"The solution is to put a clock on the gate and enforce it. Unfortunately, I don't think show management wants to offend these trainers by closing out their customers that way -- these trainers bring lots of people to shows."

I suspect that there would initially be much wailing and gnashing of teeth, but in the long run it would work.

Particularly if it was a practice adopted by most, if not all, the shows.

I am quite used to this method, as I show Arabs, and there is a strict 2 minute rule at most shows. You can get a brief gate hold if you're doing tack changes, but if you don't get yourself and your horse into the ring on time, that gate closes. They don't care who you are--amateur or pro. And guess what? People do it.

[Portia]

Yep, this is one of my major pet peeves. Nothing bugs me more at a show than to see a ring stand empty for 45 minutes while the trainer gets done doing whatever whereever, then warms up his/her rider, then the rider goes in and does the round. My trainer tries to be there for everyone's rounds, but doesn't hold a ring unless it's absolutely necessary for the young kids or the green adults who need her support.

I do the jumpers, and her philosophy is, if you can't go out and do a jumper round without your trainer standing there, then you shouldn't be doing the jumpers. And she expects us to be able to tell her how the round went and what went right or wrong.

Labito, if you are that unsure of your riding ability, then why are you showing? This is no way ment as some sort of a dig but the show ring is no time to doubt your ability.

As for as coaches, I am sure with all the people that they take to shows doing all sorts of classes and levels, it would be impossible to be able to see every round. And to instill that a rider is not capable of doing a round without them is instilling the wrong message as far as I am conserned.

What happened to thinking for yourself, have the riders comming up today been taught to have someone think for them?

All opinions welcome, this is ment for discussion, not to slam anyone.

[HorseFeathers]

Wow, I was just thinking about this very subject whilst getting ready for work this morning.

I agree that putting a 1 or 2 minute clock on the gate would encourage people to get their act together in a more timely fashion but I was also thinking what about if show management posted an order of go for each class alongside the course diagrams? That way the trainers could (if they have enough forethought) look to see where possible conflicts might occur and could have their riders negotiate with others to change their position in the line up if necessary?

Here in California it has gotten to the point of being rediculous. Show management has let it go for so long without addressing it that trainers now ignore the people at the in-gate begging for someone, anyone, to show up and do a round. Here they "open up the cards" and permit childrens hunters and all age groups of the AA's to do their rounds at the same time just to try to keep the ring going! It makes for very long days that stretch endlessly and I feel sorry for the poor horses too.

I think all of us - trainers, riders and show managers - need to do better job of time management.

[Snowbird]

I can tell you that show management wants to finish the show promptly. They don't enjoy the wasted time either. The trainers feel that in order to earn their respective coaching fees they must be there for each student. Those with the most students create the biggest problem.

Today, management authority is second to that of the trainers who supply the exhibitors. Long gone are the days when exhibitors tried to be cooperative because they were so grateful for the opportunity to show.

So, once again this problem gets down to dollars and cents. If management chooses to be the enforcer the trainer will simply pick another show to go to, in which case the entries will be so much smaller that everyone will go to the other show which accommodates the busy trainer and wait there.

The chain reaction is the shows become so unprofitable that soon they are gone and a developer owns the land. The economy of the state is affected by the loss of the horse farm, and then all horse farms are at risk for their "farmland tax assesment". And, then finally everyone pays more taxes to cover the loss of the horse farms and the benefit of open spaces that are paying taxes. Yes, and let's not forget all the supplementary industries that depend on the horse farm such as feed suppliers and tack shops.

Solution? I don't know perhaps a new system where the trainer gets his fee and doesn't have to be at every ring for every class.

Don't forget that for many trainers their costs are covered in the barn, but their net profit "eating money" comes from horse shows.

[Indy]

This is also one of my petpeeves. I hate having to sit around forever waiting for a hack to start because there's one more round left and the trainer isn't around.

Unfortunatley, I have also been on the other side of the issue, but I always felt so bad about it. My old trainer used to get me all ready to go, but if it wasn't my turn in the order yet, he'd go over to another ring to watch and tell me not to go until he got back, but that he would be back in pleanty of time. He usualy wouldn't get back in time, so I'd miss my spot and have to sit there until the end of the order, warm up again, only to have him leave and I'd wind up being the one everybody was waiting on to finish the class. I absolutely hated this, especialy when it was a pattern, but I always felt a bit helpless about the situation - and it was one reason I eventualy left that barn. It's not that I felt that I couldn't show without him (I regulary used to do shows on my own when my trainer couldn't come), I just figured that if I was going to be paying him to train me, he was going to train me.

[kissy]

At our barn we also wait for trainers to do the rounds. (o/f) I agree itis ridiculous to wait for a trainer for a flat class, especially undersaddle. But for the over fences, if we hold up the gate it is usually because you need the trainer to warm you up, not watch right? And if you sign up etc. then when your warmed up, its around time to go in the ring, and your trainer is there, because they warmed you up right? But my trainer has acouple other friends, trainers, who can warm us up if there is to greata conflict, so we don't end up holding up the ring much.

[ThirdCharm]

I agree with all those who state that if you can't handle going in the ring yourself, unless you are a rank beginner, you don't need to be at a show. And any trainer who has not prepared a student so they can critique their own round is not doing their job--probably so they can keep the student insecure and forking over those big 'hand-holding' fees.

My students do jumpers, eventing, and dressage shows, and while I do charge a coaching fee, that means I am down at the warmup ring COACHING and can't necessarily be at the ring for every single round--though if I can be, I will be. If a student really feels like they need me to critique their every move over the course, and I can't be there, that is what video cameras were invented for!!! Marvelous little devices, I must say...

JenniferS

PS I never heard of a show losing customers because it was run on a schedule--quite the opposite, in fact.

[HorseFeathers]

Snowbird, maybe this could be a topic for discussion with each areas local representatives, for example mine in CA is NorCal. If members were made aware that some sort of time rule was going to be applied at every show (and it was) then perhaps the rings could be run more effectively. It dosen't need to be applied as a punitive deterent, it's just another rule.

There is another thread out here discussing why horseshows aren't more popular as spectator sports and I feel that this topic is related. Not only do spectators not actively involved with the sport (generally speaking)not have any idea how rounds are scored (hunter rounds) they also can't understand why rings sit empty. For the average, non-horsey spectator it's boring to sit around waiting for someone to show up and jump a round.

Beleive me I know what you're talking about regarding the development of land, here in CA it is a real industry with land for equestrian pursuits being demolished at a steady pace. But if we can't find ways to improve our sport and make it more appealing then I fear it's going to disappear anyway.

[Nora]

My trainer would die if I ever went into the ring for an over fences without her. I mean, the whole poing of her even being at the horse show is to watch my over fences, and help point out mistakes that I have made, and point out ones that I might not have felt but that showed up in my course, and overall critique my course, so that I can go in the ring the second time, and the third time, and so forth and so on, and try to improve each time. However, my trainer has never minded if I hack, or do an Eq. flat without her there, because I'm old enough, resposible enough, and a good enough rider to handle flat classes by myself. Oh, and Renee, just as a point of interest, what kind of shows do you do? I'm just wondering, because where I am, no one goes into the ring for an o/f without their trainer...(presuming that they have one, and arne't a professional, or riding w/o one..)

[Jet]

I think a lot of the fear involved with showing without a trainer present is SO many times WHO is standing at the gate is SO important....... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I think Horsefeathers might be on to somthing with posting a list on order.

I show where the horse is best suited depending which one I am on the A's down to schooling shows, what ever is necessary to get the horse going how they need to be.
And I don't need my coach standing at the in gate, when there are less experienced people that need the hand. I don't think its fair.
I have been showing on and off for the last 17 years, I think by now if I don't know what needs to be done I am sunk. (LOL)

[HunterPonyRider]

I hate that! Why can't the kid just hack with a different trainer? That's what old trainer did; she'd find a friend who was at the ring and she'd coach me. This happens at one particular show because they have five rings going at once. And the show is local, not an "A"!

[Becca]

Uh, god! How many times i have sat in the hack, waiting for so and sos trainer to show up. Ladies and gentlemen, IT IS A FLAT CLASS!!!!!!!! You need to WALK TROT AND CANTER! I understand, the change of direction- thats complex.. Its ludicrous that 16-17 year old kids need a trainer at the ring side, holding up the rest of the 30-40 kids in there so she can exercise her basics!! Its awful. I have no constructive criticism to offer either, merely moaning and whining /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Flash44]

Read the current issue of Horse Show, especially Katie M-P's interview. She stated that the US is producing RIDERS, not TRAINERS, because most riders are overtrained, meaning the trainer is there every minute telling them what to do. They are never left to figure things out and correct things on their own. I can understand a trainer not wanting a green rider or difficult horse jumping on their own, but if you can't figure out a few simple jumping exercises to do on your own, you need to find a trainer who teaches you something instead of just directs you.

[Snowbird]

Well Flash,
I agree with that, I know our students are capable and we do our work home in the lessons. They should be able to know what they did wrong, even if they won the blue. I've had kids who won and I told them they should have lost because I didn't like their sportsmanship.

I hate it when I see a trainer waiting at the gate to ream out some poor rider who made a mistake. What For? They know they blew it, you know they blew it, so at home we talk about why they blew it.

But, I must admit I have what is probably a warped attitude. My concern is for the ones who didn't get a ribbon. The ones who did don't need any help. They got the message.

When I am thrilled with my rider is when they don't need me to tell them what to do. I love it when they know the options and make their own choices, then I know I did my job. It doesn't really matter win, lose or draw, it's a rider. Don't you think sometimes that loss is because of the 30 seconds it takes to think, what did he/she say I should do? instead of having the reflexes to do it!

[Moesha]

The problem is that not everyone would be treated fairly if a one or two minute warning system was put in place. How many people who work the ingate would close the class on the bigger names? Not many if any. I know it is really frustrating to finish a trip and then your horse goes back to the barn, bathed, taken out for grass, maybe a roll and then brushed and wrapped and put away and still the class is going and the ring is empty!!! In all fairness though, many times my trainers have had two or three ring conflicts, what can they do??? You have one large pony going, and Amateur owner horse and an Adult Jumper, it happens, not all the time but honestly every time I have had to "hold up a ring for a few minutes it is literally because my trainer had to be at another ring. You hear the Ingate people arguing over the radios over which ring has should have the priority and when the rings are far apart and separated by shops and park like settings it makes the situation worse. Regardless of your ability your trainer should always watch you and see your trip first hand, I think it is a little more complex an issue than just those, who are out there, who could care less who they hold up and as I stated earlier they would be the ones who would go unpenalized while the lesser know trainer would be easily pushed aside.

[Portia]

Yes, the trainers often have conflicts and have several things going on at once. No one is disputing that; many of them also have to ride a number of horses themselves in addition to juggling their clients.

What many of us are saying is that if you have a child in the Large Ponies, and an A/O in the jumpers, and an Adult Hunter, then the A/A and the A/O ought to be willing and able to GO AHEAD AND RIDE while their trainer deals with the kid on the pony. And the trainer should deal in advance with the paddock master and starter to get things organized with the order of go to reduce the conflicts. It's the riders and trainers who INSIST that NOTHING can go forward without them that slow things down and frustrate everyone else. Not to mention the strain on the horses and ponies of having to wait around forever to get finished for the day.

[ShaSamour]

Portia, that's exactly my point. When I used to show with a trainer, if he had a conflict between my division and one of the kids, I used to tell him to go take care of the kid, that I could take care of myself. The downside of taking care of myself is that I often get snagged to go first, if nobody else is ready or willing....

[Snowbird]

Moesha that is also a concern of mine. I learned a long time ago that the most "experienced" trainers have a 100 gimmicks for avoiding the intended discipline.

An example, we arrived late at a show years ago and there was time on the gate. I was told not to panic, just tell them that I needed the farrier to repair a shoe. C'est La vie!

Since I have this mentality that is more concerned with losers than winners, I felt that it wouldn't be fair to be an enforcer for the smaller reputation, if I couldn't enforce the rules for the bigger "reputation.

[Moesha]

I am sorry, I agree with what you are saying, but I can't agree with it being the solution of this problem for the Adult or more experienced riders going in without their trainer. It is part of the showing experience to have the person who coaches you and has helped you build and learn to watch and critique the finished product. It is also a support mechanism to have your trainer at the ingate when you go in and when you come out. Also what if something happens? You fall or have serious problems or even minor ones who is there on the ground to go over it with you? To just be there for you? I think that there are other avenues that can also be explored before expecting riders to just go in without their trainers. We pay so much money and work so hard, and yes open ingates are annoying and upsetting, but I do not advocate riders going in without their trainers unless they desire to and if they don't then the ingate people need to work with trainers who are willing to do everyhing possible to be ready. Remeber, many of the open rings and people waiting, especially in the jumper rings, are not even scheduled in the order. Many times it is someone else who was supposed to be there and isn't and so you have an open gate the ingate person trying to get people in who were not supposed to go yet and their trainers are elsewhere at the moment. That is a common scenario where it looks like people are just waiting about for there trainer to show up when in fact the order is so out of wack because of a few or a group from one barn. So why should the others rush? When some are coming up as they please and in fact have caused the order to fall apart? Of course for smooth running and just plain consideration, but with all of the effort your school should gear you up to carry that momentum into the ring. Also, many times if the trainer is not around the horses have only been hacked, so they are not even ready to go in yet. I have to say that even with the ingate problems that arise, in my Zone we have some wonderful and interesting people working at the shows and each ring has a distinct personality, which becomes especially colorful when they are calling riders by name to "get in the ring,I see you in the schooling ring" or "if you are back at the barn you are in the wrong place" just a little lightness for a touchy and trying problem.

[Flash44]

There is a definate problem at the in gate. I have put my number in, only to be told that there are 35 trips ahead of me. So I have either waited to warm up, gone for a whizz, or whatever, only to have the announcer calling me by name 10 minutes later because there is an open gate and no one is around.

if a trainer has that many students, he or she should have an assistant or an experienced rider who can help school some of the younger or greener riders while the trainer mans the ring.

Hey all you eventers! You get your ride times in the mail! Do your comeptitions take forever or do they go according to plan?

[ThirdCharm]

True, it is NOT the people waiting BY THE RING for their turn who are the problem... it is the people who for some reason are nowhere to be found, or who have to spend another 20 minutes longeing their Hunter before they can even get on it! Why should I have to look at the entries printout, say "Okay, there are only three rides to go in their class, time to warm up for mine", tack up my horse, warm up, and hustle on up to the ingate only to find that out of those three rides, two are still in the warmup ring futzing around?? Is that fair to me to have to stand in the hot sun for another twenty minutes because they can't get their act together? Sure, there are always conflicts, but it seems to me that if there was a real conflict that couldn't be resolved by moving a horse in the order of go, maybe just ONCE IN A WHILE a rider could muster the cajones (sp?) to go in the ring alone? If I spent "so much money" and worked "so hard", I would be more upset by the fact that I NEEDED a babysitter than over their temporary unavailability. No wonder it is so hard to fill a class if the jumps go over 3'!

JenniferS

[Moesha]

I do not know any Adult riders or Junior riders who would go in the ring without their trainer, I am not stating that is the way it is in all cases, but as someone who does the A shows, I have rarely seen the "polished" riders of any level cavort about without a trainer. Yes it is a lot of money, time and hard work, and it should be done correctly within whatever program you are in with your trainer. It has nothing to do with being brave or not needing to have your hand held or babysat, it is the way it is done. In any sport your coach is there watching the performance you have worked so hard on polishing. Showing is just that, not the place to school but the place to show how much you have accomplished, your trainer needs to be there. I think there are more cases of no one being at the ingate, not the rider waiting helplessly for their trainer, but that is again another issue. I feel that there are other avenues that could be much more constructive than just putting the blame on people not going in without a trianer there with them. You brought up the schooling so late, that could be legitimate but again that is something fixable, people should be ready to go unless their is a conflict. The trainer stuck at another ring is a conflict, someone not being ready on time for no other reason than bad planning is not an excuse.

[OlmosHeaven]

Our competitions in Zone V run pretty much on time. But there are constant updates via announcers and some times things might be running as much as 20 or 30 minutes behind. But the scratches and occasional eliminations that happen in dressage and stadium help make up time.
Where you will find the biggest changes will be in cross-country, also due to scratches and eliminations, but also because of a hold on course because of a fall.
We do not have to ride before our posted time -- dressage or cross-country, but if you miss that you'd better have a very, very good reason or you will be eliminated -- and I don't know what that reason would be -- maybe a fall in the warm-up that required a precautionary check from the medic (and then approval from president of ground jury) before starting.
In the few years I've been doing combined training, I can't think of a time that I've ever gone much later than my ride time -- maybe 10-15 minutes. But I have ridden early.
Constant announcements keep competitors posted on whether or not things are running on schedule and there is usually enough time scheduled into cross-country that by letting horses go 30 seconds closer together, the show will pick up the time fairly easily.
After years of riding hunters and waiting for trainers to get to the ring so their precious students can go in and hack, or waiting for the pro to finish schooling his horse and then get off his horse so he can adjust the saddle pad and then get back on so he can take his long loop around the ring as he goes in, combined training is such a joy. None of this hurry up and wait (and wait and wait and wait).

[OlmosHeaven]

Oops, meant Area V, not Zone. getting my combined training and hunter-jumper regions mixed up.

[Chentilly Express]

This is definitly somthing that bothers me tremendously (sp?) Now if it was a kid I can understand. But a grown adult and defitly more expieenced then some. They should be able to ride by themselves. We should not be dependent on our trainers. I can remember plenty of times when i went into my 12-14 flat without my trainer because he was busy with the kids and thier ponies.

[Ghazzu]

Reading this thread makes me glad I pretty much got out of the open hunter scene. It's
downright pitiful to hear that people think the object of showing is to get a blow by blow critique of your round. That's what a lesson is for. A show is to present the results of your work to the judge and the spectators and compare it with what others can do on that day.

I like having my friend/coach watch me, but I'm an adult, and I can go in and ride all by myself.

The cult of dependency on the trainer is a mystery to me. If the trainer can't get you to the point of being able to do it yourself, then, IMO, they're not doing their job very well.

[Twizzler1]

In NO CASE do I beleive that a student, whether a child or adult, be forced to enter the ring without their trainer. Yes, it gets to be a problem when the shows run late and what-not, but thats why they HAVE a trainer. Some trainers only bring 5 students to each show, while I have seen other trainers with nearly 20 students. Why fault the students who ride with the trainer that brought 20 students, simply because they ride with a trainer that brings so many people to the show?

[Flash44]

How bout making sure you can hear the PA system in the barn/parking areas? Most oft heard ? at shows - What are they on in Ring x? It helps to hear we have 5 rounds and a hack and then we are starting the next division in ring x. those announcers that let you know how many more rounds left in a division really help you get a feel for how much time is left.

[Bethe Mounce]

Please indulge me, and this is not meant to offend in any way.

Why are you at a show in the 1st place if you cannot do a flat class and jump well at home?

I realize there are trainer/coaching fees at shows, but isn't that for the collecting ring? Such as in schooling you before you go in?

If your coach/trainer has properly prepared you at home, shouldn't that coach/trainer be good enough to "allow" you to do something on your own?

Perhaps some want their trainer standing right there to watch the round and comment after which is great.......but shouldn't you know what you did right or wrong without someone telling you? By the time you start competing shouldn't you be competent enough to know?

Please please no one take offense, these are just some questions I have often had as I announce at some of these hunter/jumper shows....if the next rider isn't ready, I take who is! It keeps the ring moving along and there are no delays.

[salsalito]

I used to show with a trainer who brought 10 to 18 students to each show. We were so proud that even with all these kids, we NEVER held up classes. There are solutions to every problem! If there were several students in different rings, we would find people who were competent enough to watch and critique the riders in one of the rings. I remember a lot of times, standing on my horse in between rounds watching one of her students go, ready to help, and report to both my trainer and the rider exactly what happened. If a barn is big enough to bring more than a few riders, it must have riders who are good enough to watch another rider complete his or her course. Our system worked so well, and after we reported back to the trainer, she could school us before our next class, give her opinion based on her knowledge of our skills and what she had been told by the "reporter".
I also do not see the problem with riding a flat class without a trainer, if you are good enough to be at "A" shows, you should be good enough to know how to walk, trot and canter. I don't think I would feel right holding up a whole class because "I want my trainer!" :roll eyes:

[Bertie]

From the flip side of the coin...Please bear with me. After all this time this still bugs me.

A long time ago a student was borrowing my jumper for the Medal & Maclay at a big show. They were both about 16 yrs old, hehe, and it was the horse's first time doing the eq & the rider's first time showing him. Of course I needed to be there for their round.

The order for her first class was posted and I could see that their place in the order would conflict with a working hunter class I was riding in. I talked to the gate-man, and he suggested I do the hunter first, which was in another part of the show grounds, and he'd move my student down in the order. I rode the hunter, got back to the eq ring, and, the class wasn't over but my student was not allowed to show! I pleaded my case, and other trainers argued for us, but NO. It seems that the first rider in the order had been shut out and her mother was watching the whole class to make sure that no one else was allowed to go out of order. What a nightmare that was!

Thanks for letting me vent /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Moesha you stated "Showing is just that, not the place to school but the place to show how much you have accomlished"
If you believe that then why do you and others feel it necessary to have your trainer there.
I believe you are the one in the show ring and you should know what you are doing before you get into the ring. This should be taught at home. Thats why you school bigger, longer etc.. at home in the first place, so that you will be confident at the show in a lower level.
I feel you should know how to problem solve before you get into the ring to do your course.
It seems there are alot of people that use there "trainer" as a crutch instead of a guide.
I use my coach as a guide, someone to make sure I am going in the right direction for the goals I have set for myself.
As for as people being at a horse show without a "trainer", we don't "cavort" we are too busy doing it ourselves to stop and chat.
With the wonderful help of my hubby, he makes sure that when I go into the ring, handing off my towel from wipping my horses mouth and my boots that I am indeed "Polished".

[Carrot3]

I do agree hat it sometimes holds up the show ring but If I go in without my trainer there, it makes everyone mad
*My mom loses money by paying training fees and not getting anything
*My trainer can't decide if she has told me the right thing to do
*i lose out cause I don't know what to do differrantly to do better in the ring

The answer to this problem is simple. If your trainer isn't there, let someone who is ready go before you.

Hate to be rude(this is to no one in particular) but

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gifDU /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[brilyntrip]

As a judhe and trainer I can tell you it is VERY irritating to WAIT AND WAIT!!!!IN Pa it isone trainer I can almost assure you he's very good but holds up every show.In Nj itssomeone else also very good and I have begun to think he does it on purpose!!!As a coach I try very very hard not to hold rings up (its rude you know).I do this by Checking the set jump orders early in the day and if I anticipate problems then I Talk to the ingate.If it isnt that big a show I figure out who will go first and start working it out.I do believe a great delof this is arogant baloney!!!

[Louise]

I've been staying out of this one because I am one of those weird people who don't show, I like to work at home, and, when I scrape together the money, I'd rather go to a clinic where I can learn something, than to a show.

However, I must say that I agree with all those who have stated that it should not be necessary for a coach to be babysitting every rider, every time they go into a ring. A lot of good reasons have been given and I am not going to repeat them. I just want to point out that, when you get out in the "real world" no one is going to be there to hold your hand. You had better be prepared and know your job. If you make a mistake, you had better have the reasoning power to figure out where you went wrong and how to fix it. In that respect, I think those coaches who foster utter dependency upon their clients are doing them a great disservice and are just that -- coaches, not teachers.

By the way, did anyone notice that last night at the National Figure Skating Championships, little, 15 year old Sasha Cohen was there without her trainer(I missed the reason why). Carol Heiss Jenkins was just sitting with her to keep her company. Seems to me that if that little girl can perform at that level (and get 2nd place) without her trainer present, most of us should be able to do the same when we show.

[Lois]

Why should one trainer or one rider's poor scheduling become the entire show's problem? If you can't ride without your trainer there, and he/she isn't there when it is your time to ride, withdraw from the class. It seems that option doesn't occur to some people, and they feel their wants should inconvenience everyone else.

In dressage shows, you are assigned a ride time. If the show is running ahead of schedule, you have the option of riding early, or waiting until your assigned time. You are forced to budget your time properly, because if the judge's bell rings for you, and you don't enter the ring within 60 seconds, you are excused. Period. Your problem is just your problem, and the whole show doesn't get delayed because of you.

Entry fees aren't cheap, and one or two lost classes may encourage trainers and riders to budget their time better.

[Flash44]

Louise, Sasha Cohen's coach WAS there with her. However, he also coaches Naomi Nari Nam, who skated right after Sasha, so he opted to be rinkside with NNN instead of in the Kiss N Cry area with Sasha. He asked a friend to sit with Sasha so she would not be all alone on the couch.

[Portia]

Bertie - your rider should not have been shut-out for missing her spot in the order, because you did what you were supposed to do when you saw the conflict -- you talked to the appropriate people and had a change made in advance. So they should have honored that change.

For those who say someone else should just go, many people do, but after a while you're left with the only people left to go being the one's who's trainers have conflicts or whatever and aren't there. So the ring stands empty because the class can't be finished and the next one started until these people pull themselves together. (We too have a couple of people in this area who are by far the most notorious for holding things up at our local shows, but the management is afraid to discipline them because they bring clients to the shows.)

One reason I don't need to have my trainer there for every round -- even if she's far, far away, I still hear her voice in my head all the way around the course: "LEG, TURN, KEEP COMING, STEADY, LEG...." LOL! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Louise]

Oops, sorry Flash44, that's what I get for walking in in something in the middle and thinking I know what's going on. My feeling still holds however, unless you're very green, you shouldn't need a coach to hold your hand every single minute.

[Flash44]

Didn't mean to sound harsh, Louise. I hope you saw Sasha skate, she was phenomenal. If she hadn't of fallen, she would have won it. Just about all the ladies fell. NNN had a terrible time.

[Tower One]

OK, ANOTHER GREAT THREAD! Having been a part of the "WAITING GAME" for 25 years, I've come to a couple of well founded conclusions. Number one, it's usually a very select group of trainers that you ALWAYS wait for!! At WEF, there are 83 1st year horses, doing back to back rounds, the division spans six hours. 8AM, til 2pm!!! Do you think the exhibitor with 1 or 2, or the exhibitor with just hunters might be able to take four minutes out of their day to get in the ring??? Brian Jones, my starter at WEF, is wonderful, and is so accurate with his time predictions that I have nicknamed him "Big Ben" (for the clock, not the horse). Anyway, he'll tell me what time we'll be done, and of course, I'll pass that on, along with barn calls every 5-8 trips. OH GOD, I WISH I COULD NAME, NAMES HERE!!!!! But, surely as the class will end at 1:50 as predicted, when we get to 1:45, here comes___________, wraps on the legs, tail bandage on, and unhacked as of yet.......PLEASE!!! Instead of naming the culprits, and let me tell you, they don't care either, and that makes it even worse.....Can you tell I'm getting angry just thinking about these people? Instead of naming their names, let me give you some examples of trainers to emulate. SCOTT STEWART, one of the very best, has tons of horses (38 this year, I think) and is first to go alomst everyday. His juniors are ready on time, his ponies are there. A++++
JACK STEDDING, Always willing to help you out, and always there when planned A++++
ALEX JAYNE, one ,morning last year at WEF, he or his children or clients went first in 7 rings!! A++++ CAROLINE MORAN, an amateur, who usually does 6 of the first 10 trips with her two horses A++++ JAY MATTER, always willing to help you out A+++
I'm missing a bunch of good ones, I'll strain my brain, and maybe come up with another list. Observation 2, putting a clock on the gate does not work, one because you end up hurting people like the above mentioned who are working their plan ..... and with 8 rings, it would disrupt the entire gorunds. However, I do wish management could somehow deal with the individuals who are constantly "not around".
Comments?

[Louise]

S-Ok Flash44, I'm not as sensitive now as I was when I started on this forum(if you remember), besides, I know all you guys much better now. And, yes I did see Sasha skate, she took my breath away, missed everyone else though.

[Twizzler1]

Currently residing in the zone 2 area myself, I know what you mean about a few trainers that tend to hold the rings up. If the NJ and PA trainers are who I think you are talking about, brylntrip, then you really cant blame them, bringing so many clients to each horse show! Are both trainers men? I am wondering if we are on the same wavelength.

[N&B&T]

Lois, another good idea from another discipline... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ShaSamour]

I know exactly who the NJ trainer is, and he is a source of ring hold-ups at every single rated show I do. Last year that was 30+ rated shows. Yes, he brings lots of students to shows, but if you have that many customers, for heaven's sake, HIRE AN ASSISTANT! That has been the most frequently offered solution to this trainer's conflict problem. But apparently, he feels that nobody else can do quite as good a job as he does, so an assistant is absolutely out of the question. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Moesha]

Hello,
When I referred to being polished, I was not talking about someone there to wipe your horses mouth or your boots. I mean the overall presentation in the ring, the round a riders form the horse. There is nothing wrong with someone going in the ring with or without a trainer, but waiting for your trainer if you desire to do so, or in most cases that is the plan is legitimate and should not be questioned. I still feel that there are more issue to holding up the rings then just people waiting around for their trainers to show up. The way I look at it yes it is annoying if you are stuck or are ready to go but are held up but if you are ready go put in your trips then you are finished and you can rest and wait for the jogs or the pinning.

[Gennifer]

Portia, I know exactly what you're talking about at the Houston shows (especially in the Hunter divisions). Those of us in the Jumper divisions have our act together, though, don't we! I hate all the delays when they happen, and I believe if a jump order were posted for all rings (we usually have one for the Jumpers), everyone would figure out how to make it work. My trainer NEVER makes anyone wait. I think it's because she's used to the way they run things in Germany. If you're not there and it's your turn, your SOL. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have noticed that if Ian runs the hunter rings, they're better. He's one that makes plenty of announcements and is a good "motivator." The GSWEC could invest in some better speakers for the barn area - lots of times it's hard to hear.

With that said, I have to say, I need my trainer. I've been riding for ages, but am a little new to the whole jumping thing - 2 yrs under my belt now, and I do the Adult Jumpers. Plus, somehow I always seem to buy these green horses!! It's fun, but I need the support of my trainer - moral support more than anything. I've been showing since I was 6, and I still need that support. I pay $1000 per horse per show when you add everything up (and that's your average, local A show), and if I want my trainer there, I deserve to have her there. That doesn't mean that I deserve to hold everyone up, but I also don't think it makes me a bad rider to want some coaching. Half the time she doesn't say anything, but sometimes she can see, say in a line, if I come in too strong (or too slow) she'll yell (Whoa! or More Leg!) Just helps me out when I need a little encouragement or need to take some sort of action. Yes, maybe I should know that, but showing IS a learning experience. The atmosphere, the jumps, the courses, the pressure - you just can't duplicate that at home. I've done 3'9 courses at home, but I hesitate to go above 3'3 at a show. Why? Because I need the miles at different venues, and I need to have MANY MANY good rounds at that level before I feel comfortable moving up.

Anyway - I'm for strict timing. 3 calls for a ring with no one showing up, and they should move to the next class. (I've done a couple of Eventing shows, and I LOVE the way they're run!) I'm also for jump orders, and even times of go if possible. Then trainers can do rearranging to minimize conflicts. I'm also for trainers watching their students, or assistants. As for warm-up, come on people, you should need no more than 3-5 jumps in a warm-up ring unless you're having major problems. Warm yourself up, then spend no more than 2 minutes of your trainer's time to watch you go over a couple of jumps and make minor adjustments if necessary.

Finally, as long as the expense of showing remains where it is, EXPENSIVE, the show managers aren't going to have a quick fix to the problem. I'm not saying it won't get better, but it will be a matter of persuading the ones who are the repeat offenders. The people paying the money will have the power. I say, lower the cost and get MEAN about holding the gate. More people will want to attend a better run show, and the shows will probably make just as much if not more money. It all has to do with who has the power in the situation. Until someone has the cahones to actually shut the gate and move on, I don't see the problem getting better anytime soon.

Sorry to be long winded - just got on a roll /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Portia]

KEN - I'm right there with the guys who like to go early. Get in the ring, get it done, take care of the horse and give him/her a cookie or carrot, go relax with the knowledge that I'm done. Doesn't bother me to be first in the ring (as long as I've read the course diagram right!)

Gennifer -- I've got NO problem with the trainers being there for the folks who need them, whether young or green, horse or rider. Believe me, the first time I take Portia in a ring, Jo will be there! But I've seen adults and older juniors who show CONTINUOUSLY on the same been-there-done-that horse stand there and say "can't go without my trainer" and hold things up for an hour at a time because of lack of basic planning and consideration. Arrggghhhh! And Jo, being English, is like Stephanie -- you go when it's your time to go -- or even better, early if you're ready.

Moesha - I understand what you're tyring to say, but the "just do your own trips and relax for the hack or the pinning" solution just doesn't work. The problem is that when waiting on these trainers, you have NO IDEA HOW LONG IT'S GOING TO BE before they deign to show up at the ring.

Everyone waiting for the hack, or for the next class, is told the only thing the starter knows: there are 2 horses who have to do 2 trips. So you figure, 4 trips, 10 minutes, OK. Except it might be half an hour or more before those horses even start to do those 4 trips. So you and your horse stand around waiting to hack, afraid to go back to the barn because the hack might start in a few minutes, or you get your horse ready for the next class, warmed up and ready to do your trips, and then you stand around and wait.

These little difficulties don't affect the culprits who cause them, because they don't have to wait -- they do their leisurely warm-up, clean-up, come in and do their trips, and 5 minutes later do the hack. And they're sure as hell not going to go early in any class unless it suits their fancy to do so.

This stand around and wait routine is not good for the show, not good for the people, and very certainly not good for the horses. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[This message has been edited by Portia (edited 02-14-2000).]

[Gennifer]

Yes, Portia, I agree with you. My first paragraph was to you, agreeing with the situation in our area. The second was to the people who responded on this string criticizing those of us who need a little hand-holding right now /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif , and who say that showing shouldn't be a learning experience. It can be all of that and still run smoothly!

I'll keep my stance that unless there's a shift of power, either by lowering show costs and getting strict on times or by someone just standing up and finally saying "Enough - no more 30 minute gate holding - 5 minutes or better yet, 3 minutes is the max!", I just don't know what we can do about it. Yes, our trainers are considerate and we always get our rounds done efficiently without holding up gates, but others just don't seem to care. As long as they're holding the $ card, I don't see which show managers will be willing to step out and get strict!

[marianne]

Hurry up and wait-this is a hunter/jumper show. I now show dressage and have a time for my rides and can plan out my day accordingly. Show management-is there anyway you can estimate the time it takes to do a hunter round then add a couple of minutes to smooth between the riders? Most of the time don't you know how many entries you will have for a class at least one day prior to the day. Or is the post-and late-entries that are throwing the schedule off? Or are you loading up the schedule and running everyone through like a herd of cattle. Then post the rider and times. Trainer/riders, would this help you in planning your day? Judges, don't you have some sayso in the promptness to be in the ring? Dressage judges do-if you aren't there, so what. If you judges do have this authority, then please use it. Have the courage to say "You are being rude and disrespectful of my time, the management's time and other people's time." This behavior seems to be the biggest gnashing of teeth besides loose dogs and golf carts. It is really very disrespectful and rude to everyone.

[brilyntrip]

Go Ken Go ,I agree with you 1000% all the PROFESSIONALS you named are exactly what I have called them.PROFESSIONALS who know how hard it is for every one else to their job if one or more trainers hold up the ring.I have always been willing to go ahead of my spot in the jump orders if the ingate is having trouble. SOMETIMES it works for you to go early ...LIKE when the grass footing is wet a nd deep etc....AS I said earlier...ALL you have to do is loook at the orders early and work it out if you have several going in different rings.I find it very arogant of some trainers to show up at the end unprepared.MORE power to you KEN

[gomo]

This is ridiculous...I know trainer's get busy but holding the gate for an eternity is awful, especially if you're the one waiting for the next class. Up in Spruce Meadows they do not allow any sort of hold up. If you are due to show in two seperate rings at roughly the same time, they will move you to compensate but they do not allow trainer conflicts. This makes the show run so smoothly, classes go at exact times, course walks are at exact times, etc. I realize that we would all love our trainers there each time we ride but in reality, we are alone once we walk in that gate. Any time I have run into the problem, I go to where my trainer is and warm up there and then go to my class. I think it is also very good practice for the rider to do a bit of it on your own, because once you finish you may feel like you really accomplished something on your own, without your trainer standing around watching. Just a thought...I was at one show and this one trainer, who is very well known was holding up the ring for a Prelim horse. The Amateurs were waiting to walk their course and we all sat around for a good thirty minutes, waiting. Finally, we all began to speak up and they eventually closed the class. By the time he strolled around fifteen minutes later he was angry but the Steward and Manager came down and said that he had no real conflicts and should have been there on time. I've noticed that this year he is a bit more prompt.

[ShaSamour]

I've always wondered if there is some rule which prevents putting a division on hiatus and allowing someting else to run until the trainer can be freed of the conflict. For example, at one show, the Children's Hunters got held up with a trainer conflict. They were running back-to-back trips and this one trainer's horses had to do theirs (I think 6 fence trips in all). In the meantime, my division, which is all flat classes, was ready to go, but waiting for this trainer's people to finish their trips. We all wondered why they couldn't run our 4 flat classes (which takes like 1/2 hour total), then continue with the Children's Hunters. Is there some rule which prevents this? Or is it up to the discretion of the show management, judges, and stewards?

[PepTalk]

I would like to add a little twist to this post if that's OK. My story is: One time I was entered into an over fences class when the stewards were holding up the ring because nobody wanted to get there little rear end in!!! I finally said I would go in and I did, WITHOUT MY TRAINER!!! When I exited the arena, my trainer ended up "talking" to me about not entering the ring without her there.( She wasn't there because she was saying goodbye to her husband, who was driving home)I took the talk because she was TOTALLY right. I ended up being something like 4th in that class in a group of about 10-15 kids.AND, my trainer doesn't stand ringside coaching me through my round, I DO IT MYSELF!!! I keep telling myself things that I have to do in my head. The only reason my trainer is ringside is because she WANTS TO BE!!! Besides, aren't you supposed to school BEFORE the class with your trainer so, your trainer could school somebody else when you are having your round?Hello? I don't think you need to have your trainer glued to your side, every waking mintue(sp)? of the show!!! I am sorry if this is hrash but this is my opinon(sp)? Thank You for letting me vent!

[Snowbird]

I do believe that it would not be according to rules or at least precedent for a judge to keep 4 cards open and start another division.

I do agree totally, both as a show manager and a trainer that our job is done at home, at the show is the test of how well the lessons have gone. I believe that it is our job to get riders so that they can think for themselves.

I think it is a big mistake if the rider facing a challenge needs to stop and think, what did he/she say I should do? Instead of having the built in reflexes to solve the problem.

Like good parents who teach their children so they will eventually be independent people, trainers should not keep their students on such a short leach they can not think for themselves. Respectfully, I suggest that since most will not be in the Olympics and most will not accept the challenge for total excellence our job and the value of our lessons is to teach them how to present themselves to a judge, and how to solve the problem. The trainer is there for support in case of a major error, or applause in the case of the right judgments.

I think after a certain level, the rider should be able to tell the trainer what they know they did wrong.

[gomo]

Snowbird, I totally agree with you. I know it's nice to have one's trainer on the sidelines but it isn't always possible...at shows some trainers get so busy that they may just have enough time to warm you up. What if another of their student's follows your round or goes next in a jump off? Obviously we can't be holding rings everywhere. Plus, if you continue waiting around for them to get enough time to watch you warm up and show, you could be sitting on your horse forever, that will probably irritate your animal as well. Your round in the ring is like a test. Like in school, you are tested on your knowledge and your teacher cannot help you on the test. I believe that it's similiar. Don't get me wrong, I always like to have my trainer nearby by to tell you the truth, if he were to leave mid-course or walk away just as I entered the ring, I wouldn't have a clue. Once you're in that gate you focus and pretty much shut out everything else that is going on. I think most of the support is the psychological, the way you feel knowing that your trainer is standing outside the gate. I think this is way off track now, sorry. I do believe that it started with holding gates/arenas for people. Just think, if you're in the last class of the day, you do not want to wait until dusk to show, if you do, it's probably because of several people running 'just a few minutes' behind...

[Ghazzu]

Anybody else here that likes to browse through the AHSA rulebook? Some tidbits:

Article 309. Time Schedule.

...3. Once the first horse in a Hunter, Jumper, and/or Reining class has been
entered, shown and judged, the class must be run in entirety before
commencing with the next scheduled class in the same section...If
classes are held simultaneously using back to back rounds (See Art. 2443), both
classes must be run in entirety before commencing with the next scheduled class
in the same section. (Exception: Art. 311.4).

Article 310. Delay of Classes.

1. When the start of any class requiring horses to be shown individually is
delayed by horses not ready to perform, the competition may be closed at the
order of the judges or Show Committee, provided a warning is issued and
exhibitors are given three (3) minutes to appear at the in-gate ready to
participate.
2. It is recommended that a starting order be established in all classes in which
horses compete individually and to allow one minute for an entry to enter the
ring. At competitions using only one ring, a starting order must be established.
If a jump order is used, it must be posted at least 30 minutes prior to the start
of the class.

[etk]

I remember waiting at h/j shows. How annoying. Thinking that they can't do it on their own inspires a lack of confidence in riders, and boosts the cult status of trainers. If you can't do it on your own, you shouldn't be showing. Why can't h/j shows be run like dressage shows? In dressage, competitors know EXACTLY when they're supposed to ride. So if I'm showing at 3:12 pm, I know I have to warm up 45 minutes before the test, and that I'll be done by 3:17 (if I'm riding a 5 minute test), instead of wasting my whole day at the show, waiting for my turn. And if I don't show up at 3:17 to ride, I'm disqualified. Period. No whining will help.

[rusti]

My horse shows in eventing and has recently started to show in the jumpers. At the events your given your ride time and thats that-they are aware of other horse you may be riding and schedule appropriatly. Its your job to be ready to go at the assigned time. If your not too bad you-you just wasted your entry and stabling costs. (If there is a conflict its your job to make other arrangements with the steward or your out of luck.)
the show jumpers seem to be very different-more like a free for all. Seems if assigned times can work with 300+ eventers at a show it can work for show jumpers and hunters.
By the way-in eventing the rules are the same for all-big name or not.

[Tower One]

Thought I'd bring this thread back to the front page, with just a reminder, a new show week begins Weds. in all locations, so behalf of Gary, Oliver, Fred, Jason, Peter, Mike,Peter, Brian, Don, Leanne, and all fellow voices I've left off the list, please don't make us call for YOU personally. That's a sign that you're not doing well, anywhere, because no one knows where you are. You should always be in contact with at least one in gate! It's up to the gate man to keeep things flowing, and most do a very good job of that. So, when I get a call that we need to page someone, I know, YOU"RE LATE!!! YOU"RE NOT ORGANIZED" So, please, try not to be a DION. "A Wanderer".....we all thank you , in advance!

[This message has been edited by kenneth kraus (edited 02-22-2000).]

[wishbone]

It's not really fair to compare eventing to H/J shows since the main reason for all the hold-ups at H/J show is conflicts due to SO MANY RINGS going on at the same time! And they keep adding more and more rings every year. Right now Ocala has 4 jumper rings and 5 hunter rings. I'm sure it's worse at WEF.

[JRG]

I think coaches need to do a better job in preparing people for the shows, and yes I believe there is too much hand holding.
Now hear me out before you all jump.
I have seen on many occations horse and rider have no business being together and have heard the excuss "my trainer thought this would be the best horse for me"-really your trainer thought they would have years worth of money rolling in in training fees.
Or quite simply they are just not ready to be in the show ring.(trainer thinking I'll get training fees, showing fees etc...)
Obviously they are not all like that, but there are some out there.
I don't have a problem with people honestly needing there coach there, due to lack of experience at a show, not having been acustom to the process because it can be a little hairy.
Usually the rings these people hold up are the beginners, and lets face it we have all been there, and the rings are usually separate.
My problem is with the people that have been around the block and know the drill. And you can see the difference between an beginner and a well seasoned rider. These are the people that infuriate me.
Where is that Soapbox?..lol

[Flash44]

When you send in your entry form, you list the trainer on the form. Actually, my trainer sends in the forms and I just sign it at the show. So why don't they post a jumping order based on the TRAINER? Like Joe's 3 students, then Mary's 2 students, then Bob's student, then Joe's other 2 students, etc. You could create a trainer index where you could look up the trainer and see that he has x students in one division, x in another, and that way, the in gate crews can keep track of trainers and spot possible conflicts before they arise.

[Paula]

Wishbone have you been to an event lately? Seriously /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Thinking of a few in my area you will have a minimum of two dressage rings going at once (sometimes more) with horses on course running cross country and at the same time another division running stadium. Many events in my area will run dressage, stadium, then cross country for about half the divisions just to save time and accomodate this. Talk about a three ring circus! Take my word for it I do photography at events and I often have to miss people since there is so much going on at once. Eventers in general are just a bit more independent and don't need the hand holding /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Anybody refusing to go into a ring because a trainer wasn't present would not only get the big E they would probably get seriously laughed at. I guess it goes with the type of personality attracted to the sport!

Paula

[Duffy]

I think jump orders would be great for all hunter classes. I would love to have a better idea of my schedule. The only problem with that, is that even when there is a jump order, some trainers/riders do not comply and habitually get away with it. My trainer has always worked with the different ring starters and does her best to coordinate her students' rides. I have also volunteered to move up on multiple occasions. This can work for you, as mentioned before, for footing reasons. But I think it can also work for you in that the judge has probably been twiddling their thumbs for at least 5 min at that time and the announcer usually makes a point of saying that "so and so has volunteered to move up in the order" blah, blah, so that the judge knows it wasn't you that held up the ring and that you're capable and willing to move up, even in a 2nd round classic where the order to based on previous round scores.

Also, don't all starters have radios????? If a trainer is at a ring schooling students that is not the "priority" ring, than can't they send he/she over to the schooling area/ring where he/she is needed more for show scheduling purposes? (If that trainer has not taken it upon themselves to have already talked to the starters to know where they should be ahead of time. . .)And I think we all know the trainers that try their best, and we also know the trainers that seem to think they walk on water as far as show management/other participants are concerned. I hate to penalize their riders for their disrespectfulness, so I don't know what the answer should be. I'm sorry, I definately seem to be rambling here. . .so I guess I'll sign off. . . .

[Anne FS]

Jet wrote: <<I think a lot of the fear involved with showing without a trainer present is SO many times WHO is standing at the gate is SO important.......>>

There's your answer, folks.

I agree that some trainers like to foster helplessness and over-dependence on the trainer - it keeps the money coming. (One reason why some trainers don't like pony club - it teaches horsemanship and independence).

Here's my true tale. Many years ago I went to a regional meeting for my breed (this was saddle-seat, not h/j, but I was assured the feeling transcended all breeds and disciplines). The topic of holding classes until the trainers could get there came up and in this meeting, people were extremely up front about the fact that they are paying for trainer X and they had darn well better be seen with trainer X at the ringside for them or for their kids. People told me to my face it made a difference in the placings when the judge knew who your trainer was. Now, an outstanding ride can still win, but when you have a huge class and there are many worthy trips, who is standing at the in-gate makes a difference. Famous trainer X's students will get a ribbon sooner than Miss Nobody who also did a beautiful trip but has no famous face watching her round.

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 02-23-2000).]

[Regalmeans]

I agree with you all - although I've rarely had this problem. My trainer always watches my hunter rounds but by now I'm seasoned enough that I don't need her there for my pleasure, hacks, and under saddle classes. Furthermore - when she isn't there she usually has one of her friends watch me and offer advice - so don't people just to that? Are they really so reliant on trainers? I mean I probably wouldn't go to a show without my trainer but I'm fine having to walk up to my hunter u/s or my pleasure classes alone and all. I think there should be a time limit on how long you can wait and people should schedule things better - like don't be off in some schooling ring when you know you have a class running!

[Philly]

Hold up show rings is definitely a pet peeve of mine. My first trainer would sometimes hold up ring, just because she was disorganized! But for the most part she tried real hard to make sure we were ready on time. Now my next trainer (who i believed was mentioned earlier in the thread - a guy from NJ) couldn't get to a ring in time if his life depended on it!! It used to drive me nuts! I hate being late for anything, so when I would hold up a ring waiting for him it used to drive me crazy. He is organized, he just likes to "socialize" too much on the way from one ring to the next! I don't have a problem with going in the ring myself, especially for an undersaddle, but if I pay someone to be there and watch me then I want them to be there and give me feed back when I get out of the ring. Now my husband is my trainer, so he better be there watching - NO excuses! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif
I think one of the main things that hold up rings (besides trainer conflicts) is schooling. If a show is kind enough to let you school then jump the jumps and get out. People treat the schooling like a lesson and spend 30 minutes practicing a line. I usally trot in and canter out just so my horse sees the each of the jumps and thats it. Some other people school for a half hour then go to the schooling area and jump more, this will definitly hold a ring up. I personally would love if all schooling breaks were eliminated forever! Letting horses walk or hack in the ring is fine, especially for babies! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But I guess this is a different topic so...
Also, these 10 ring extravaganzas (sp.) are not helping. There aren't as many conflicts with only a few rings going.

[Janet]

Wishbone said
It's not really fair to compare eventing to H/J shows since the main reason for all the hold-ups at H/J show is conflicts due to SO MANY RINGS going on at the same time! And they keep adding more and more rings every year. Right now Ocala has 4 jumper rings and 5 hunter rings.

When was the last time you were at an event?
Six dressage rings, one stadium ring, road and tracks, steeplechase, cross country all going at the same time. Of course, the fact that all the times (except stadium) are set ahead of time makes it easier for the trainer to plan, or decide which riders need his/her "help" more.

Sorry, I don't have much patience with the trainers who can't figure out how to deal with reality. I say enforce the 3 minute rule.

[Lionheart]

I'm an eventer who also rides h/j and dressage. I was absolutely stunned when i took my horse to a h/j show last year. I went by myself with no trainer. I warmed up and was always asked to go early because there were kids sitting around who wouldnt.

When i ride dressage or go to an event you have a posted time to ride. If you're not there, tough. I go everywhere without a trainer. I have lots of friends who are more than willing to point out my mistakes and they are FREE. It's not like your trainer can shout out directions to you while your riding anyway. If your trainer cant make it they should have a substitute watch if you insist on it or a video camera placed with a fellow rider or family member. This is CRAZY. If you cant ride without your trainer watching you, you shouldnt be riding. there's nothing he can do for you during the 3 minutes you're in the ring anyway. Get a video recorder and get on with the show!

In Cross Country you certainly dont have the Luxury of your trainer watching your every fence.

[Tower One]

Hi guys! Duffy, i read your post with interest. I think, the one's you think are "getting away with it" are the ones working the hardest. These are the ones that have a plan, but have it compromised by the one's who are dragging. Then, you, might see, this guy moving up, and that guy moving down, and you might think they're getting special treatment. I don't think in most cases they are. I think the starters, are at that point, reworking the plan. As far as starters "with radio's" chasing people down, giving them notice that they're needed, or "would you have the announcer page in the barn to bring so and so down, or bring the martingale..." Please. Our starters here, send on the average 240 trips thru their ring, 5 days a week for 10 weeks. That's close to 10,000 trips per week. They answer a million questions, they reroute, and route horses and people, they call the number in to the announcer, get stand-bys from the judges, run out to set rails, gather fallen riders and loose horses...so my question is, do you really think they should go give messages to people who aren't where they're supposed to be? I think they've got enough on their platter. DUFFY, I want you to know, this is an imformative reply, not a hostile one, cause it sound's a little angry. it's not. BUT, I do feel that the STARTER has the hardest job on the grounds, bar none! Thanks. Treat your starter special tomorrow, think how they'll appreciate it.

[Portia]

KEN -- you've got at least one of our good ole' Texas boys there with you as a starter, don't you? We've got some really good ones who do the Texas circuit, but even they can't work miracles.

[Duffy]

KK - I'm sorry if I implied that it was the starter's job to get the trainer where he/she should be - That was not my intention at all. I think the starters for the most part have a thankless job - and I am very conscious of that and I treat them with the respect they deserve. I also did not mean to imply that every trainer that holds up a ring is at fault - I know it can happen to the best of them - and I appreciate the ones that try to hurry, while at the same time, taking whatever time their client/horse needs to put in their best effort. I apologize to anyone who felt affronted or wronged by my post. It definately was not my meaning at all.

[This message has been edited by Duffy (edited 02-23-2000).]

[Tower One]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
KK - I'm sorry if I implied that it was the starter's job to get the trainer where he/she should be - That was not my intention at all. I think the starters for the most part have a thankless job - and I am very conscious of that and I treat them with the respect they deserve. I also did not mean to imply that every trainer that holds up a ring is at fault - I know it can happen to the best of them - and I appreciate the ones that try to hurry, while at the same time, taking whatever time their client/horse needs to put in their best effort. I apologize to anyone who felt affronted or wronged by my post. It definately was not my meaning at all.



THAT'S WHY I SAID WHAT I SAID AT BOTTOM. I didn't think that at all.. I just got to ranting about starters, and it sounded like I was ranting at you. PORTIA, you're right, and I'm the lucky guy that has JONESY. Brian Jones, is one of the very best starters I've worked with, all time.

[This message has been edited by Duffy (edited 02-23-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[This message has been edited by kenneth kraus (edited 02-24-2000).]

[Nylar]

On one hand, I can see how people would want their trainers there when they go into the ring, after all, we're paying for them to watch us. I prefer it if my trainer's there with me, but a lot of the time, she has to be with another rider. That's okay too, at 18 I know what to do to get ready to go in the ring, and I know what she'd be telling me just before I do. We also have walkie-talkies at each ring, so that if my trainer can't be there, she can at least tell us what to remember.

Also, if my trainer can't be there with a rider, she sends one of the older girls to be with them. I can't count the number of times where I've spent my time not in the ring schooling another rider or coaching on the sidelines. Having to wait for someone (and we get our share of it too) is irritating. The series we do also has a 2 minute rule, if you're not there, you lose! Simple as that.

[WarPaint]

I do the children's jumpers, and I feel that ANYONE doing jumpers should know how to walk the course, school, and go in the ring w/out a trainer. Chuck is, like alot of big trainers, extremely bust at a show. And if he has to choose b/w Dana's $25,000 A/O Classic and my children's jumper class, of course I would expect him to be w/ Dana!! And alot of times he's schooling 10 people for the same class, in which case he'll school me, send me to the ring, school the next person, and so on... if he sees my round, great. If not, I tell him what I did wrong and he yells at me and everyone's satisfied. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif If you can't handle doing a round w/out your trainer at the sidelines yelling instructions to you, you shouldn't be there. And flat classes... that is just tooo ridiculous to comment on.

[Timex6979]

i can understand a trainer wanting to be there for a inexperienced rider, or for the first ride witha new horse/rider combo. but for most of the worst offenders, they are kids in thier late teens that can't breathe without thier trainer's say-so. if you know enough to ride the course w/ your trainer, then you know enough to ride it w/out your trainer. you're the one riding, your trainer can't save you. if you want your trainer to see your course, buy a camcorder. you should be able to recognize your mistakes on your own, and be able to at least attempt to fix them, otherwise you're in the wrong sport, because the rest of us don't have the time or patience to wait on your hand-holding

[Sandy M]

Another reason to do dressage: Specific times to ride, allowing for proper warmup and no trainer conflicts unless there are multiple rings going at a really BIG show.

Seriously, I showed H/J and evented for many, many years and I particularly did notice this problem with H/J. I can understand the fearfulness and hesitation of rank beginners without someone there to hand-hold, but beyond that....

I rode with good trainers when I did H/J and the usual routine was "when is your class, okay let's warmup, do some fences, review the course, then... you're on your own, I will be there if I can, otherwise remember you need to (a), (b) or (c), etc."

Before cross-country or stadium at an event, same thing, warm-up, a few reminders, and "I'll try to be there but I've got a lot of students."

Most of the time, the trainer got there, but I never hesitated to go without his/her presence, even at novice level.

If all shows held to a 2 min. gate, the trainers would still being their clients to the show because ALL shows would be doing it and they would have no choice.

[Coreene]

i was announcer at several small shows at our barn. i would warn everyone, over the PA an in person, that i kept a very strict gate and when i said two minutes, that's what i mean, 30 seconds the same. if they didn't turn up after all that, i 86ed them from the class. boy did i offend a lot of people. and boy did they never pull that stunt in front of us again. i'm sure it was undone by the next show.

[TequilaSun]

Well, it's always nice to have your coach watching you, but a trainer is only *1* person. If they have a couple little kids showing ponies, a few children's or junior hunters, maybe an A/O Jumper or even a higher level jumper or two, they can't be in all of those places at the same time!! So, they are going to choose their priority, which is probably the student or students who need them the most. The more capable kids and adults can jump a round on their own. They don't need somebody holding their hand and babysitting them the whole way through.

[Clarke County]

While I agree with all of the many posts that say people at A shows should be able to do a trip, in a pinch, without their trainer if there's a conflict, typically people will pay a flat daily training fee to their trainer. Clearly rings should not be held up for trainers who can't properly schedule their students and notify starters, but if I am paying a trainer to watch and comment on my trip, I want their input. I've ridden with many trainers and can't imagine a one waiving his or her fees because they missed a student's trips due to conflicts.

[bluey23]

First of all, a show day is long enough. It makes me mad when the ring will hold the show for a trainer. But, I can understand because the shows get most of their money from the trainers showing. So, the rings will stand open for thirty minutes waiting for these trainers. Personally, I think it is ridiculous.

[PonyFodder]

Oof. I saw this thread and had to jump in, but it looks like just about everything's been said that needed to be said. I work the gate at medium-to-small 'A' shows in my spare time.

As a starter I feel I have a responsibility to the exhibitors to provide them with the opportunity to do their best. It's hard enough to find 8 distances without us beating on them to get into the ring. At the same time, we have an obligation to keep things moving...I think everyone agrees on that.

I would group people who hold up classes into 3 general categories:

1. those who have legitimate conflicts
2. those who don't have a clue
3. those who could care less

Those in the first group (should) generally work with the starters to resolve their conflicts in the least painful way.

Those in the second group generally figure it out quickly (or aren't around long).

We have ways of dealing with those in the third group.

The key, in my opinion, is not an iron fist. The keys are information and communication. As Kenny pointed out about Jonesy, good starters keep everyone informed about what's going on, so there should be no excuses. If it's getting late, and we haven't heard from you, we will start naming names...then, generally, some sort of time limit will be imposed.

Nobody likes an open ring, especially us, because it means we aren't doing our job and very shortly everyone (besides the exhibitor/trainer we are waiting for) will be mad at us - the rest of the exhibitors, management, and the judge...by the way, I have heard of judges who factor the open gate time into their scores...particularly if there is an 'ingate clinic' involved /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif!

Kenny, say hey to Jonesy for me...ask him email me if possible http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif .

[Tower One]

PF - Sure will! I'm headed out the door for the first day of Tampa, and Brian will be at my gate. He is a pleasure to work with, and I'll pass along your greeting and request, however, I'm not sure he's "online".

[Jumphigh83]

My gripe is scheduling. Why start the day with 4 pony rings going at the same time??? The multi rides and trainer conflicts are just exaggerated by doing this. Then management starts barking at the kids to get to the ring and then they are upset and the whole day starts off on a negative note. Also, they assume that you have several slaves to bring horses to the ring..I am one mother, who had 3 ponies, needed at the ring, at the same time, and one ten year old who was starting to not have fun any more..We are burning out 10 year olds!! Time to re think the schedule. (PS AND they threatened to close him out of a class if he didnt appear..now he has to choose between showing his pony jumpers and his "catch rides" in the pony hunters...You can't be in two places, or three, at the same time)

[Janet]

Um. I don't think that show management is "burning out the 10 year olds".

I think that whoever made the decision to have the 10 year olds show 3 ponies, AND DIDN'T CHANGE things when the 10 year old first became "less enthusiastic" (which happens long before "burnout") are the ones "burning out the 10 yeaqr olds".

[Jumphigh83]

Sorry I dissagree...The shows schedule contributes to frustration and overload when in fact the kids WANT to show but are pressured by the horse show to be in three places at once..When it's not fun anymore, the horse show will suffer because I'll only let him do his ponies and the catch rides will either move on (to another rider) or stop showing (what happened at HITS)

[Bumpkin]

This is a good one to bring back up. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[horseygurl182]

would never go into the ring with out my trainer. What good is it to have them there if they can't watch your round and critique it and help you once it's done? And what if something horrible happens and their not there? So all in all I would never walk into the show ring without my trainer, flat classes are a different story.

[H_J_Mom]

I know trainers are trying to be many places at once, when they have kids showing in multiple rings. However, if there were posted times, a computer program could sort out the conflicts, and get them resolved, and then we could get done at a reasonable hour! Also, the ability to "add and delete" classes would have to be somewhat restricted. I know in the shows we go to, the estimates on the start times of classes and the length of time for a particular class is so off, because there are always a million adds at the last minute!

In eventing, you sign up, go at your posted time, and leave. In Dressage, you sign up, go at your posted time, and leave. Why can't hunter and jumper rings operate the same way? I believe the answer is $$. The show operators don't want to turn away last minute adds (more $$), so everyone gets inconvenienced. Trainers don't want to limit their student base, or have convinced their students (even the more advanced) that they couldn't possibly go in the ring without them because they justify their coaching $$. Yes, feedback is important, but more advanced kids and adults should be able to tell the coach what they did well and what they didn't do well. Coaches may need to call on each other for some ringside assistance if there is a conflict and the student needs a hand.

Trainers should be aware of the times when their students might hold up a ring due to conflicts. I remember hearing gate stewards begging trainers to let them know about conflicts so they can work through the problems, and get the kids placed properly. Many times, that falls on deaf ears.

The gate rule should be enforced. I would love to see a show manager do it sometime in a hunter/jumper show.

[CharleyHorse]

I understand how you guys feel having to wait, and I hate it too. My trainer lets me go in flat classes without her, as long as my mom or another knowledgable adult is there in case something happens, you know? But I would never ever go in the ring to jump without my trainer. I think that they should move on if they have been waiting for maybe 5 minutes, as long as it take for one or two rounds because a lot of trainers have a lot of students, and they can't train all of them at the same time, especially at A shows because there are so many rings. My trainer solved this problem by hiring an assistant trainer who coaches the students she can't for whatever reason. I do agree that the rings shouldn't wait long for someone because the show has to keep running, and people always complain about how late shows run, but if you think about it if you want shows to run faster then figure out a way to get your students in the ring on time.

*~*!*~*pRiNcEsSiNaBuBbLe*~*!*~*

[Rosey]

Since when to trainers "allow" students to ride without them????!!! Isn't it the student's choice?
If any of my trainers yelled at me for riding without them, they would get fired right then and there. Fortunately, all of my trainers know that I ride with them once or twice a week and thats great, but when I show....I go alone and no one is going to yell at me for my mistakes, I know what I did and I know I what I have to do at home to fix it.
I think that if people started schooling at home, by them selves, that they would be a lot more confident to ride alone at shows.
I like the idea of video taping your class to watch and review later.
As far as trainers sitting there yelling advice to students in the ring....it shouldn't be aloud. Anyone who is competing should be able to ride the class on their own. If they lose, they lose...hopefully they will work harder at home to get it perfect.
I ride 4 horses a day, 6 days a week. I take 1 hunter lesson and 1 dressage lesson, just to make sure I am not creating any bad or sloppy habits. I have never been to a show where someone could say I was unpolished or unprepared. I hate losing, so I do my best to make sure it doesn't happen.
Rosey

"The only true wisdom is in knowing you know nothing."
-Socrates

[HntrJmprGrl]

I always have my trainer with me when I go into the ring, even though I would be perfectly fine without her there. Usually for flat classes when she needs to school someone else she will leave, bu for o/f she is always there just in case.

[TrickOfTheTrade]

My trainer dode prefer to be there to watch my over fences round. She dosen't usually ride out horses in the pro classes so that never really is a problem.
If she is at another ring (or I am) she talks with the gate person so they will know and gets herself (or me) over to the ring ASAP.
For a flat class if she is at another ring she usually tells me to just go in. There will always be someone from the barn on the rail though.
My horse is still green so she needs to be there for the over fences and to keep me calm etc.
For new riders/horses the trainer should obviously be by the ring to watch and get the person and horse in.

[Kestrel]

I've been to Indio with our barn and the trainer and an asistant and 16 horses. We rarely held up a ring because first thing in the a.m. they were talking to back gate people about how to make it work smoothly. The one exception was when pony and children's hacks took place at the same time and no qualified spare jockey. We school riders in batches (3 children's and 2 ammys) then go to the ring where they can get in first. It usually isn't a problem to go in if the back gate knows ahead of time.
Last fall half the people on the showgrounds at Thunderbird were furious with a trainer who held up the last ring. He hadn't shown any of the 5 hoeses he had in the class, and since all the other rings were closed there sure weren't any conflicts. We all stood around waiting for the jog for an hour while he schooled and showed each one. The show manager stood next to the jump he was uaing and glared at him the whole time, but they didn't close the ring.

One question: if I'm supposed to school myself over jumps, who is going to set jumps for me and "save" a jump? At H/J shows, trainers usually stand by the jump they are schooling student over and you don't just push your way in and start jumping it. Jumps are used in both directions as needed, and it isn't pretty if you meet head on. There may be 4 or 5 trainers waiting around to get a jump.

[AAJumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kestrel:

One question: if I'm supposed to school myself over jumps, who is going to set jumps for me and "save" a jump? At H/J shows, trainers usually stand by the jump they are schooling student over and you don't just push your way in and start jumping it. Jumps are used in both directions as needed, and it isn't pretty if you meet head on. There may be 4 or 5 trainers waiting around to get a jump.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder the same thing. I've had people randomly jump the warm up fence I am schooling over, and there is no warning....all of a sudden someone is coming at me head-on. When I've shared jumps before, there's always the knowledge that you are sharing with a certain person, so no collisions or surprises occur.

Plus, I don't just jump whatever and then go...we start out with a smaller oxer, then get bigger, then go to a vertical. I need someone to set the jumps.

[KellyS]

I think events have the right idea.

Jumps are only jumped one direction (flagged white & red - white on left, red on right)

There are only three fences: crossrail, vertical, and oxer - the heights are set for the division competing.

With this set-up it is quite possible to warm yourself up without worrying about collisions, saving jumps, or changing the height.

My feeling is that a good warm-up should be minimal - good preparation insures that you don't need to school lots of fences and lots of heights to be ready to show.

Do I need my flame suit? :-)

[~SC~]

I (and everyone else from my barn) am ALWAYS the one that holds up the ring! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif My trainer has to do pony hunters, junior hunters, childrens hunters, child/adult jumpers, pony jumpers, etc..so there's no way she cna be everywhere at once! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Fortunately, all the gate guys know us we just joke about it, but it gets kindda old sometimes. But I could NEVER EVER go in the ring w/out my trainer. She would kill me!!
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

~Sarah

[Janet]

About eventing<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There are only three fences: crossrail, vertical, and oxer - the heights are set for the division competing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually it is "at least" a vertical, an oxer and an X. For the 3-day, they set up 5 (2 oxers, 2 verticals, and an X).

[lisa]

Gee, SoCo, I beg to differ...
I think the trainer in question always tries to be at the ring on time. Granted, sometimes there are conflicts, but I for one know she hates to hold up a ring... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I do know that she will not send someone in the ring unprepared, so maybe for some that takes extra time. And I know she respects the priority ring, whichever one that might be.