Controversial Ice Skating Final Results - Horse Related

[RumoursFollow]

I hope many people got the chance to watch the pairs figure skating final tonight.

Canadians Jamie Sale and David Pelletier practically brought tears to my eyes with their unbelievable performance. When they finished it- the house knew- they knew- they had won the gold. Unbelieveably, in a tiebreaker, judges voted 5/4 to allow Russian dominance to continue, and the Russians took the gold once again- while the crowd booed. Unbelieveable.

I feel for the Russians too, as they skated the best they could, and this controversy definetly took away from a wonderful performance.

But my heart just breaks for Jaime and David. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Over the years that I've done the hunters, so many times I've seen controversial results. I've always felt so helpless...

So is there anything we can do? Can we expect it to ever get any better? Why would the judges want to take that medal away from Canada?

Is it possible that the politics in Ice Skating are as bad or worse than the politics in the horse world?

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[RumoursFollow]

I hope many people got the chance to watch the pairs figure skating final tonight.

Canadians Jamie Sale and David Pelletier practically brought tears to my eyes with their unbelievable performance. When they finished it- the house knew- they knew- they had won the gold. Unbelieveably, in a tiebreaker, judges voted 5/4 to allow Russian dominance to continue, and the Russians took the gold once again- while the crowd booed. Unbelieveable.

I feel for the Russians too, as they skated the best they could, and this controversy definetly took away from a wonderful performance.

But my heart just breaks for Jaime and David. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Over the years that I've done the hunters, so many times I've seen controversial results. I've always felt so helpless...

So is there anything we can do? Can we expect it to ever get any better? Why would the judges want to take that medal away from Canada?

Is it possible that the politics in Ice Skating are as bad or worse than the politics in the horse world?

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[the sauce]

i hadn't thought of it that way...it does kind of relate to hunters. and jamie and david did skate a perfect, beautiful performance tonight. i couldn't believe that after that performance the russian team still beat them even though they had mistakes. once again the judges fail to give the right awards to the right people.
peace...

[Jane]

I've always compared figure skating to hunters...and received the "what are you talking about?" look. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Anyhoo, here's MHO on the pairs judging tonight -- it was a tough call. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Clearly the Canadians skated a beautiful, flawless program, while the Russians, IMHO, are "better" skaters with a more difficult (also more "dramatic", IMHO) program, made a few mistakes and definity were not at their best. My instinct after the Canadians finished their program was that they'd *probably* won, then when the presentation marks came up, and it turned out they were 2nd after all, I wasn't as surprised as the audience.....I guess I'm used to it after all the time I spent around hunter rings. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[AnnM]

I've always used skating as an analogy when trying to explain to non-horsey people how the hunters are judged (i.e., its totally subjective and depends on how much the judge likes you, unlike speed skating where you win if you're the fastest).

Sadly, tonight, I was reminded why subjective judging can be so frustrating.

When I used to show in various classics that were scored (M&S, for instance), my trainer explained it to me like this: some horses walk in the ring starting at 90, and will stay there unless they make mistakes. My horse was a wonderful, trustworthy, consistent guy with auto-changes and could walk the numbers (if I jumped into the lines OK), but not always the tighest with his knees and not the best mover. My trainer said I walked into the ring at about 80. If I had a good trip, I could go up (I think my all-time high was an 88 once, but anything above 80 was a good day in my book). So if I had a perfect round but was close to one jump, I might get a 75 while the person with the 90 horse would get 85.

Is figure skating like that? Did the Russians just start with higher marks, and even with mistakes, beat the Canadians at their best?

It was very frustrating to watch, because the Canadians were great, and the Russians had several glaring errors. It's one thing when one judge makes a mistake, but how do you account for 5 of the 9 judges calling it like that???

Ann

[Glimmerglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AnnM:
It's one thing when one judge makes a mistake, but how do you account for 5 of the 9 judges calling it like that? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oddly enough the countries in question are Russia, China, Poland, Ukraine, and France ... who tend to the vote as the same block in matters of the United Nations. Hmmm ...

[davidgud - equestrian jihad]

I just had an idea - put the 5 eastbloc figureskating judges, in a building, together with the Canadian Equestrian team officials/heroes who decided to humiliate Spruce Meadows last year by including Lamaze on the Nations Cup team - then burn down the building.

Whooever said I am not creative?????? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Astraled]

Reminds why I like jumpers /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif . Canada was robbed!

__________________________
I hate the TV

[RumoursFollow]

whatshisname... that was the famous male singles skater whos name I cannot think of since its 2AM - even he said something to the effect of "as an announcer I try to see both sides - say I'm the tenth judge - understand where they're coming from- but there is just no way that I can think of that they could justify this. We will have to see what happens, but this will definetly be a blow to the integrity of the sport."

Their interview on NBC tonight was so sad! I wanted to reach through the TV and hug that poor girl. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

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[This message was edited by RumoursFollow on Feb. 12, 2002 at 02:32 AM.]

[lilblackhorse]

scott hamilton?...going to bed now, but the comment that "this is an embarassment to the sport of figure skating" was interesting.

I suppose skating can be very much like hunters, though being an event rider, I tend to see some similarities to dressage too....quite frankly, anytime you have an objective (is that right, or is it subjective, always confuse the two)....anyway, whenever it isn't based on time or something tangible, and you have to look at something more nebulous such as style and grace, you set yourself up for error or favoritism.

I've seen some fairly crappy dressage rides win over the years-makes you wonder what the hell competition THEY were watching....
A sad night for canada...*sigh*

*Proud Founder of the Elipses Users Clique......We can't stop using them....*

[Jo]

Ok, you guys and my friend Joey have convinced me to tape the taped coverage... I'll check it out tomorrow when I've passed out from finally having finished my papers for the week. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[dublin]

Skating may be the only sport that makes hunter judging look almost objective in comparison.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

My congratulations to Jamie and David for a lovely, wonderful performance. I think they know in their hearts that they were the real gold medal winners, but to see a block of judges take that away from them really made me sick at heart.

The judging tonight WAS a true embarassment to the sport.

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller

[This message was edited by dublin on Feb. 12, 2002 at 02:52 AM.]

[This message was edited by dublin on Feb. 12, 2002 at 02:57 AM.]

[Bumpkin]

I kept praying/hoping/thinking the Russian skaters would trade places with the Canadian skaters or bring them up on the podium with them on the Gold Platform /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Also, I am shocked the French did not give them First!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"Have You Hugged Your Trainer Today?"

[This message was edited by Bumpkin on Feb. 12, 2002 at 03:03 AM.]

[buryinghill1]

Riders/owners/trainers screeched a lot about who made the teams. Usually big-money owners, and sometimes rdiculous horses.
The current system may not be perfect, but at least sleeping with so-and-so won't get you a ticket to the big time.

Last night was sad for Canada - but alas, we're not the ones "with the clipboards."

[FionaJ]

For me, it was a real turn off to stay up watching such a program, see quality and then watch politics play it's part. Not only did the Canadians not have the errors that the Russians did, they had a flowing program and were energetic. I don't think I am going to watch any more skating.

[Flash44]

Hmm, I thought it was a close call. Remember, the Russians finished first (and earned it) in the short. And Berezhnaya is a much better skater than Sale. The Russians were artistically much better than the Canadians, and those were the scores that determined the winners.

Skaters are given a technical score and a presentation (artistic) score, and the presentation score is more important.

Pitcher bane soot owen. Weer goon downeyoshin.

[Fred]

does make the hunters look objective! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
I thought they skated a perfect program and deserved the gold. The Russians are wonderful skaters,but last night they were not at their best, the Canadians were. It discourages me that at this high level of achievement and effort, politics still plays such a role.
Lets see what happens in the ice dance (the most political of all) The Canadians there are wonderful - but they always get kept out of the top position. (Remember the last winter Olympics?) and their fabulous Riverdance routine?
ahh figure skating -
makes me yearn for show jumping too - jumps stay up, you are the fastest, you win.
(this is from someone who shows hunter and has perfected the shrug) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[wendy]

my brother tried to be a competitive figure skater for awhile, and during the judging, it became quite clear that the judges don't mark entirely on the basis of that one performance. They usually have watched practice sessions and previous performances of all the skaters, and the skaters performance on these occasions definitely contributes to their score. I personally think such a system is crap. Which is why, I guess, I've never even been tempted to try hunters.

[Canter]

On our BB up here in the boonies /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif a BB member made the suggestion that the Russians won based on technical marks. The comment was made after having spoken to a someone with extensive figure skating experience. This BBer said that speed plays a factor in the final marks and that the Russians were much faster than the Canadians - implying that this particular technical mark is important.

Interesting to me - I know nothing about judging figure skating beyond he/she made a mistake.
I think there may be more to it than us armchair judges believe.

And isn't the same in the hunters? Haven't you ever had feedback from a judge and had been amazed at some of the teeny tiny or obsure technical things that your marks were based on?

I mean weren't we discussing how your exit from the hunter ring can make or break a class just a few weeks ago?

[Horsesense]

I thought the American team skated beautifully as well; they were beaten by the Chinese team even though the girl had a fall during the program!

[tle]

in light of this highly questionable result in such a subjective sport, I tend to ask the question (again) "why are totally subjective sports in the Olympics in the first place?" Granted, we're talking about some major players here... figure skating, gymnastics, etc., but really, controversies such as these would diminish considerably if totally subjective sports weren't in the Olympics.

Not saying they should be tossed out, just food for thought.

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[lilblackhorse]

well, I saw a thing that they want to add bridge to the olympic lineup...no lie. That's not subjective...LOLOLOL. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*Proud Founder of the Elipses Users Clique......We can't stop using them....*

[hobson]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lilblackhorse:
well, I saw a thing that they want to add bridge to the olympic lineup...no lie. That's not subjective...LOLOLOL. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, after watching 5 minutes of snowboarding, I was begging for something as exciting as bridge. Oh dear god was that tedious. At least they didn't bring back that stoner announcer from Nagano whose entire announcing lexicon consisted of 2 phrases: "Dude, he's really stokin' on that run" and "Oh man, he's stoked."

[DMK]

I too have always used the figure skating/speed skating analogy to explain hunters/jumpers to the unwashed masses /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I didn't see the competition (honestly, I would rather watch an L&O repeat than the winter olympics, but that is a whole 'nuther thread, one which Erin would kill in a heartbeat /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif )... So I have to ask this? Who amongst us really understands the absolute finer points and technical details of judging figure skating? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Or are we sort of like the average joe watching the hunter class, thinking that we sort of thought that bay horse should win, and we are not educated enough to know that the bay horse, while his knees were as tight as a tick, one could have folded laundry on his back?


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
So I have to ask this? Who amongst us _really_ understands the absolute finer points and technical details of judging figure skating? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not me! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BUT... listening to the announcers, and watching the canadian pair after they finished their program and knew they'd won (or so they thought), it seemed that what scott hamilton said was really true: everyone in the building, other than a couple judges, knew who should have won that program.

of course, the audience was overwhelmingly north american, and the announcers were american... not exactly impartial.

i'll be interested to see what the international skating world thinks.

interestingly, it appears that the russian team recently got the short end of the stick in another competition... i guess what goes around comes around /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/ap/20020212/sp/oly_pairs_skating_fig_8.html

--
*** DISCLAIMER: Please pardon me if this message seems overly abrupt, or there are blatant typos or a lack of capitalization. My left hand is broken and in a cast, and typing is not my favorite activity at the moment! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ***

[KellyS]

I'm no figure skating expert, but I've been exposed to the sport through my sister's competitive years at the upper levels. What happened last night turned my stomach. The Canadian pair definitely deserved the gold - they skated the better program....and we can debate the artisitic and technical points all day....but even the commentators who have skated at that level and seen just about everything under the sun agreed that the Canadians deserved the top spot.

Anyway, after last night I remembered why I had fallen out of love with figure skating after seeing incidents like that happen over and over again in both national and international competitions. It also reminds me why I switched to the more objective sport of eventing instead of staying with the hunters....while we do have a dressage phase that is subjective, the other two portions of the competition depend on you and your horse. Doesn't matter what trainer is standing at the gate, how much your horse cost, or what you have won before....all that matters is getting over the jumps clean and fast.

I turned the TV off last night right after the scores for the Canadian team went up....I'm not too inclined to watch anymore figure skating for now.

[Linny]

I'm glad I watched the Westminster Dog Show and went to bed with images of doggies dancing in my head. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Of course, I really wanted the dalmatian to beat the poodle in the non sporting group! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

BEQS clique
Resident racing historian
The early bird may get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese.

[Louise]

I didn't see it either, so I really can't complain about the judging. But, I do admit, what makes me wonder about the results is that the announcers, on both NBC and the Canadian station, were so upset.

Those guys do know what they are watching.

But, its over and done, and now everyone has to move on. You really can't take subjectivity out of figure skating, just as it would be very hard to take it out of hunters. So much of what makes the sports what they are is intangible and based on a sense of beauty and "rightness."

---------------------------
"We ride and never worry about the fall.
I guess that's just the cowboy in us all."
Tim McGraw

[halfhalt]

as much enthusiasm for their own performance as the Canadians did? After their skate was done, they clearly acted as if they thought they had won gold. Is that a good idea? Does it affect the judges? Clearly it's fine to show you're happy with the performance, but they went a little further than that.....Donning my flame suit here, but does this affect the judges at all?

One of the Canadian commentators seemed to feel the judges may have been affected by the fact that Sale and Pelletier opted for a long program they've skated many times (love Story) rather than their program of the last year (Orchid) - so maybe they were penalized for making the safe but less exciting choice. Remember, these judges, unlike us, have seen this program many many times before...

[Erin]

DQs, help me out here... wasn't there a very similar outcome at a world cup or some such competition? anky vs isabell, perhaps?

i don't know that there's any way to eliminate such controversies when you're talking about tiny fractions of a point that separate competitors...

i wonder if skating judges keep a scorecard to add up marks for portions of the program (a la a dressage test) and if those are ever made public? or do they just say, 'ok, i think that was a 5.9?'

[DMK]

I think Erin has bought up an excellent point... So what we have here is a case of some Eastern European judges voting for their hometown favorite, and a lot of North American commentators feeling their hometown favorite was robbed /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Methinks that a lack of impartiality can be a two way street! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But I don't care what the sport is, as long as it is subjectively judged (Westminster, Devon, Ice Skating, Congress, Ballroom dancing, gymnastics), someone has a legitimate grievance. Or at least more legitimate than the person who came in second in the speed skating competition, anyway.

sorry, its Tuesday, and everyone knows Tuesday is Devil's Advocate Day! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

[RumoursFollow]

last night by one of the NBC announcers, Halfhalt. She mentioned while searching for a justification that the judges might use and said this was the only one she could think of. But she also said this was a weak arguement. Because, after all, a beautiful, technically correct skate is what it is... repeat performance or not.

I dont think that we see that kind of emotion from people in the horse world when they win a class in the hunters because you really just never know. And I'd imagine that screaming around your closing circle could be... detrimental to your score. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But this is something we see all the time in Figure Skating. Anyone remember how Tara Lipinski acted in 1998 when she landed the triple triple combination and finished a clean program? I have never heard someone scream that loud in public. lol!

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[InWhyCee]

I could have given the judges the benefit of the doubt; HOWEVER, a lackluster, rather slow-skating Russian team came in fourth, ahead of an energetic, apparently clean American team. How in hell?("Oh, well, judging is hard. No one can blame me if I put the Russians first, because everyone always has.")

I don't show now, but when I do, it won't be in hunters, or figure skating.

PS: The Chinese team were great though; I give them the Bronze.

"Any ride is good ride if you dismount voluntarily."

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

[Sleepy]

The objective part I could live with, like hunters, eq and gymnastics. But the fact that it's determined by this ordinal nonsense compounds the problem. Quite possibly based on raw scores alone, the Canadians won. Scott Hamilton seemed to think so. Like KAM, I've had more than my fill of figure skating for the forseeable future.

[TrakHack]

I'm afraid I would have cried; I have loved Jamie Sale and David Pelltier since I first saw them. I STILL think Michelle Kwan should have won gold in Nagano...

I watched the Westminster dog show (I probably would have watched skating, but didn't think to see if it was on). While watching the judging, it struck me how much it is like judging a dressage sport horse breeding class. The animal is judged on conformation, movement, and "general impression", with the dogs conforming to a breed standard and the horses being judged against what is ideal for a dressage horse. David Frei repeatedly said how this is not a beauty pageant, which is what a lot of people DO say about the show. Joe Garagiola was quite hilarious, clearly not a "dog show person", and it struck me that someone like that commenting on equestrian events could make them a lot more interesting, educational, and fun.

In the words of a true DQ, if you don't have anything nice to say, come sit by me... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RumoursFollow:

I dont think that we see that kind of emotion from people in the horse world when they win a class in the hunters because you really just never know. And I'd imagine that screaming around your closing circle could be... detrimental to your score. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


ah, but haven't a lot of people here commented on how it's sometimes detrimental that riders don't exhibit more emotion? y'know, so and so wins thier 5th GP of the WPB circuit, and it's like, 'ho hum!' /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

i have seen a lot of dressage riders be very expressive after finishing a test - pumping their fist in the air, hugging the horse around the neck, etc. personally, i think it's kind of fun to see! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[The Fjord Jockey]

I'm going to get slammed for this, I know, but I was actually glad the Russians got the gold. I root Russia in all the ice sports except for Women's Ice Hockey.

Granted, it wasn't fair, and granted, the Canadians skated a good program, but it happens all the time in figure skating. When that woman called it an embarressing moment for the sport, I thought of at least 3 other times that similar things have happened, just not on an Olympic level.

I'm not shocked about the Russians not inviting them up on the podium. I figure skate too, and sorry, but I wouldn't have done it either...I would have probably been thinking too much about what had just happened. I'm sure the thought never crossed their minds.

Bummer that the American team didn't finish better than 5th.

How bout that quad attempt by the Chinese?

*J*
The Rootin'-Russian Fjord Jockey

[halfhalt]

Yes, they were very good, but the short program does count for 33.3% of the mark, and it would have been a long climb up onto the medal podium from where they were sitting after the short program ( was it 6th?) So i don't think that was a travesty.

As for speed and quality, the Canadian commentator (Barbara Underhill?) did say how beautifully the Russians skated in that respect. I don't think anyone would say their performance was lack-lustre. And since the judges did indeed score the Russians lower on the technical mark than the Canadians and higher on the presentation, I don't really think it was such a horrible injustice. After all, the Russians had a lead coming in from the short program.

[This message was edited by halfhalt on Feb. 12, 2002 at 11:08 AM.]

[TrakHack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:

ah, but haven't a lot of people here commented on how it's sometimes detrimental that riders don't exhibit more emotion? y'know, so and so wins thier 5th GP of the WPB circuit, and it's like, 'ho hum!' /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

i have seen a lot of dressage riders be very expressive _after_ finishing a test - pumping their fist in the air, hugging the horse around the neck, etc. personally, i think it's kind of fun to see! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A non-horse person friend of mine was watching a GP jumping event (this was years ago), and he said "Why is that rider hitting the horse on it's neck? It didn't hit any jumps!" Always makes me chuckle /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

In the words of a true DQ, if you don't have anything nice to say, come sit by me... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[nhwr]

I always think of skating as most comparable to a dressage freestyle. You choreograph your own performance to include required movements and are judged on degree of difficulty and artistic presentation.

When I first started riding dressage, I went to the '84 OLympics in LA. I got to see the Individual finals. The top 2 horses were Marzog and Allericht (sp?). At the time, I honestly thought that Marzog won. His performance was flawless and more fluid. To my relatively untrained eye, it just looked better. Klimke's ride wasn't as seemless, so I didn't like it as well.

Looking back at the video now, I can see the brilliance in Klimke performance (The fact that his victory round consisted of onezies(is that a word?) all around the ring didn't hurt either). He just had more in his ride. But I couldn't see it then.

You can make what you want of last night's performance. I watched it and like both presentations, which one was better? The Canadians were certainly seemless, but the Russians had a spark of something. I don't know enough about skating to say.

As a competitor in hunters, dressage or Olympic figure skating, you are agreeing to be judged. More judges like the Russians last night. It may have been political, but the make up of the judging panel was no surprise. It is a basic principle of good sportsmanship to accept the judges' decisions gracefully. I think the Canadians tried to do that. It is hard not to feel bad for them, but a silver is still huge.

And the Russians, they won the gold but everyone will always remember that "they took what was rightfully the Canadians". I think that is sad, too.

[khobstetter]

I am clearly for the Canadians...I thought they skated far and above the others...

However, I was disappointed about their choice of "costumes". This is the Olympics and out they come with the plain, drab grey uniforms. I had just switched to the channel when they were warming up and I thought it was odd they would warm up in warm-up clothes and change later...,

To corolate it to the show ring and hunters,,,,if your pads are grey, the mane braided in disarray and your coats "drab" you still get judged. But here at Indio or Washington or New York (the top of the hunter comtetitions too)it is just as important how SHARP you dress and turn out to add to your performance.

We all know it is the performance of the hunter that gets judged BUT we all spend SSSOOOOOOOOOOO much money on all the "costuming" so that we catch the judges eye and start with a 90!!! We have them so well turned out that the judge says WOW when they walk into the ring......especially the top hunters... more care is given to them and their "clothes". They do not rest on their laurels or past winning/performance history.

Does it matter .....YEP!! If you say it doesn't matter, I would like to hire you to lobby the AHSA judges to loosen their "appearance" choices so we can show hunters in polos too...saves us all alot of money, after all...its the horse that gets judged, not the tack or riders turnout!!!

I for one was disappointed to see them costumed so plainly at the competition of their lives. A little bright color and beautiful costuming would probably added just enough "PANASH" and Olympic excitement to get the nanner of a point they needed to win....

I did however think they skated the program of their careers.... I just thought it looked like they were in their practice clothes.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted by halfhalt:
Do you think that it is a good idea for skaters to show as much enthusiasm for their own performance as the Canadians did? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ABSOLUTELY!

[SquishTheBunny]

As posted on another BB...

The scores were added up and the Canadians did win the free skate.

However, apparently in figure skating scores dont matter...its the placings that count! This can be compared to riders in a hunter classic. Rider A gets a 85% and rider B gets a 87%. Clearly the rider with the highest score would win....but not in figure skating. The team with the lower score still won! I really dont understand why.

Also, a comment on the grey costumes....I think it went SO WELL with "Love Story" I couldnt picture them wearing anything other than those costums.

I have always wondered why so much emphasis was put on PRESENTATION/ARTISTIC ABILITY rather then TECHNICAL ABILITY. They are not here to perform for a crowd, thats what Exhibition skates are for. They are there to show how technical they can skate. So why is it that artistic is more important than technical? In that case...why dont they have drama at the winter olympics?

I am very proud of our home country team. They WON a silver at the olympics. They didnt LOSE anything. Just think how much they have learned from this experience. By watching the russians they have seen what the judges are looking for that they dont have. ie. speed. Hopefully in 2006 Sale and Pelletier will bring home a gold.

By the way - what a great skate by the American and Chinese skaters! The americans had a wonderful artistic and dramatic skate and the Chinese had an awesome technical (even though the quad was missed....but who can blame them!). Wonder why if artistic presentation is considered more important then the technical, the Americans didnt beat the Chinese?

I think they should have 4 "Eurpoean" and 4 "Non European" judges...maybe that would make it more fair than 5 Eurpoean and 4 non.

Brrrrrrr its cold.

[SquishTheBunny]

Why not? They skated the best performance of their lives!

Brrrrrrr its cold.

[halfhalt]

the commentators should not have kept saying (as they did on the CBC before the event) that "whoever in the top 3 wins the long program wins the gold". That confused a lot of spectators.

I too thought the costumes were appropriate (you have to recall Ali McGraw looking very severe in the movie!).

I still think Sale and Pelletier should have not made victory signs etc - yes, show your emotion that you had a terrific skate but don't create the impression that you are sure you have won. That was my point - enthusiasm is one thing, exaltation that you have won is another.

Still, in the end, far better to win the silver with a solid skate than to win gold when you were not your best.

[Coreene]

Anyone else wanna jump Zimmerman's bones? What a cutie.

[Tin]

I won't comment on whether or not Canada should have won or not but I'd like to touch on the enthusiasm.

I think it's great when I see any athlete show their enthusiasm for what they just accomplished, it shows me that they have pride in what they do. If my horse is soft, supply and listens to me completly during a hunter round I will beam during my finishing circle and give him a "good boy!" and lots of big old pats when we step out of the ring. This doesn't mean I think I should win, it means I was happy with what we did.

~ insert witty signature here ~

[halfhalt]

enthusiasm, which is great, i agree totally, but again, in a judged competition, you wait until it is over and done before you use the body language that says "I've won". After all, at that point, the third place team had yet to skate.

To continue the hunter analogy - yes, when you've had a great round, you pat, you hug, you smile, you cry but do you do the victory arm pump? I doubt it.

[PaulaM]

Do you mean to tell me that if you go in and do a great round, either jumper, dressage or hunter, than you shouldn't show any sort of enthusiasm (sp?). Well, that is just what they were doing, they went in to do their "round" and aced it, why now show an appreciation and they were just reacting to the crowd anyway.

I think Sale and Pelletier did a fantastic job and truly did our great Nation proud. Medals are only the icing on the cake.

BTW, have you ever seen a skier after having a great run, they also pump their arm in victory, I don't see you saying anything about that.

[halfhalt]

misinterpreting my comments. Enthusiasm, love it, exaltation when it's not over, i thought it was too much (went on much longer than any of the other skaters who had standing ovations).

And unlike the skier analogy, it's not just a question of seeing the time flash on the screen and knowing you've won...

[TSWJB]

i totally agree with khobstetter! i was so disappointed to see the canadians outfits. right off the bat i didn't like them. i have seen some gorgeous outfits and i think it makes a big difference. this was the olympics, i couldn't believe that they picked something so drab to wear. they did skate wonderfully, and i do wonder if they had worn something a little more dramatic, would that have made the difference?
i felt very sorry for them, but i also felt the russians took more risk. they skated a little more exciting to me. BUT, i do not know how ice skating is judged. it seems to me that to make a mistake should knock you out of competition. no matter how well the rest of the performance is. i guess skating is not judged this way. in hunters a chip would certainly knock you out of competition even if the rest of your round was far better than someone else's less dramatic but error less performance.
i do not understand how the chineese could fall down and win the bronze.
i did enjoy really enjoy watching all the iceskaters perform, so political or not, i am going to watch the rest of the iceskating!

[Canter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by halfhalt:
To continue the hunter analogy - yes, when you've had a great round, you pat, you hug, you smile, you cry but do you do the victory arm pump? I doubt it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually a very good point halfhalt - some hunter judges will mark you down if you display any of the above (with the exception of a workmanlike pat) before exiting the ring - it's subjective /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Coreene]

All I kept waiting for was bad news after it happened.

[Canter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PaulaM:
Do you mean to tell me that if you go in and do a great round, either jumper, dressage or hunter, than you shouldn't show any sort of enthusiasm (sp?). Well, that is just what they were doing, they went in to do their "round" and aced it, why now show an appreciation and they were just reacting to the crowd anyway.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I know of 3 A show hunter judges who will mark you down for that. Dressage, I haven't a clue so that leaves the enthusiasm for the jumpers - but out of the three, it's the only one that is not judged subjectively
/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[AnnM]

I'm the first person to admit that costumes shouldn't matter (although didn't Nancy Kerrigan always look amazing in her Vera Wang designed outfits????). But I actually liked the Canadians' outfits MUCH more than the Russians.

The Russians didn't match AT ALL. A flowing red getup on her, and black and blue with sparkles on him. Individually, not so bad, but together, they didn't look right (picture a lovely Essex shirt with a GP jacket that just CLASHES). The Canadians outfits were subtler, and unique, but most importantly -- MATCHING. I really liked the dark grey and black together. They looked tailored and pulled together and trendy.

Just goes to show - even THAT is purely subjective. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I feel very badly for the Russians. Like the announcer on NBC kept saying last night - we shouldn't fault them. They didn't ask to win unfairly. It must be really frustrating to finally win the gold and have it be tainted by so much controversy!

Ann

[diane]

The thought did cross my mind that they celebrated winning the gold a little early ...... IMO they were taking their bows for winning the gold at the end of their programme ..... the pessimist/realist in me thought 'don't do it! your jinxing yourselves!' you can see the difference when someone is celebrating the skate of their life, or their last skate as an amateur and when they think they've won it ..... I guess it's the Canadian in me that believes its never over 'til its over /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I thought the Canadian's skated very well but did find the programme 'old' ..... i've seen it too many times now ...... and not as techically as difficult as the Russian's .......... let's just hope that Shae Lynn and Victor don't get robbed again !

[lilblackhorse]

the racer who pumps their arms KNOW they have won, being a timed event..all they have to do is look at the clock.

This is objective, and they even admitted today on a talk show that they knew the rules-that this is a judged event, and sometimes you roll and let the chips fall where they may. I still think they should have won, but to be the devil's advocate, I can agree too with Halfhalt's interpretation as well. Yes, they did well, they smiled and knew they had. The fine line here was that they ASSUMED almost that they HAD won....this too before the other team had skated too. I'm not saying they did anything wrong, nor did the other skaters, but this is a judged competition, and all who enter the arena know it is too, and must abide by the judge's decision, right or wrong.

Should the Canadians have been a bit more subdued? Who knows, they were happy...was it a bit over the top? Perhpas....

All I know is that I would love to be a fly on the wall at the judge's meeting today where they discuss last night's placings!

*Proud Founder of the Elipses Users Clique......We can't stop using them....*

[SquishTheBunny]

Its so hard to control emotions! If you just have the ride of your life, you cant HELP but smile and give your horse a big pat! Jamie Sale didnt do anything except cover her mouth and smile! David Pelletier kissed the ice because he just had a great round! I dont think it was saying "We won gold" more so "Damn! That was a good skate!"

Brrrrrrr its cold.

[Coreene]

Have always thought he was utterly bonkable.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by coreene:
Anyone else wanna jump Zimmerman's bones? What a cutie. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is typical Coreene enthusiasm

[diane]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RedOctober & *Adastra*:
Its so hard to control emotions! If you just have the ride of your life, you cant HELP but smile and give your horse a big pat! Jamie Sale didnt do anything except cover her mouth and smile! David Pelletier kissed the ice because he just had a great round! I dont think it was saying "We won gold" more so "Damn! That was a good skate!"

Brrrrrrr its cold.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I don't know .... but it seemed that they were out there accepting the cheers etc. for a looooooong time, usually the pairs seem to hug/kiss each other and then bow in unison to each side of the arena ..... then go to the kiss and cry for the scores .............. last night they seemed to stay on the ice much longer ... but could have been because I was oh so tired and ready for bed! ..... that 4:30am alarm goes off pretty loud !

[SquishTheBunny]

Yeah I agree they were on the ice for a while, but honestly if I was skating in the olympics in the gold.silver medal position...I dont think even a forklift could get me off that ice!

I was proud of them, what a great skate. Actually, I think everyone had a great skate. It must be hard to be a judge.

Brrrrrrr its cold.

[Horsesense]

re the overenthusiastic (perhaps) reaction to their own round by the Canadians -- My son played baseball in high school and it always seemed to me that the boys who started to walk to first after what they perceived to be a fourth ball before the umpire made the call almost always got a called strike. Seemed like they were punishing the "self-call" by the batter. Not that this happened with the Canadians and the judges, but maybe the judges, like the umpires, want to be the one to make the call.

[Erin]

here's an article from ESPN... gee, i wish i'd been in THAT press conference /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter02/figure/story?id=1330428

--
*** DISCLAIMER: Please pardon me if this message seems overly abrupt, or there are blatant typos or a lack of capitalization. My left hand is broken and in a cast, and typing is not my favorite activity at the moment! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ***

[Heidi]

The Eastern European bloc chose the Russians over Salle/Pelletier and the French judge served as the 'tie breaker' - the theory being that there were secret agreements that this vote would be reciprocated in the dance competition, where the French skaters stand a chance of claiming gold.

Just watched an interview with a Canadian ISU judge who analyzed, step by step, both skates - clearly upset, the woman started crying during Salle/Pelletier's free skate. She is as equally baffled as anyone (which includes commentators from the BBC) by the judges' decision.

There is, however, an ISU meeting today to review the judging in the pairs competition and while it's unlikely that the judges' decision will be overturned, let's hope that there will be greater scrutiny for the remaining skating competitions.

It's odd, did think to myself, that such outrageous judging reinforces my commitment to jumpers.

[Coreene]

But who decided that a gray dress worked?

[halfhalt]

Ali McGraw was dressed in a very preppy, dark colours etc fashion throughout that movie.

[DMK]

Coreene? Does this Zimmerman Zealotry mean you have relinquished any rights to the D'Onofrio Desire? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I suppose with subjective judging, one always has to consider cultural considerations...

Suppose hunter judges on the West coast were all bought up to like a horse that was extraordinarily tight with his knees, and weren't as worried about the shoulder, reasoning that a horse who is tight with his knees will always take care of a rider.

Suppose East coast judges like hunters who were great with their shoulders, but could forgive a less than stellar ankle, their reasoning being that a horse that has a great shoulder is more athletic, and that would take care of a rider.

Suppose judges never crossed the Mississippi, except when they met in a 5 judge panel at the biggest horse show of the year (2 West coast judges, 2 East Coast judges and one rogue Frenchman). Just suppose we had the two top examples of the aforementioned styles pull out the best rounds of their life.

I guess we all know who is going to place which round higher, so here we are again, waiting for the French. And you can never trust the French in these matters... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Silly, I know, but I am sure there are certainly things that Eastern European judges like to see in a routine, that is naturally reinforced by the fact that such things are done by Eastern Europeans. And vice versa. But the French... This probably all goes back to the early twentieth century and that damn Franco-Russo pact that more or less sent WWI on its merry way! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

[halfhalt]

You not only made this topic horsey with the use of a very effective analogy, but you also brought in European history....!

Didn't those pre-revolutionary Russians suffer from an inferiority complex vis a vis the French? If i recall, all the Russian aristocrats spoke French in polite society.....

[the sauce]

here goes...i'll try not to rant!

1) i think a lot of people are getting turned off skating because of the judging that is going on.
2) this has happened before...with the ice dance and the mens. elvis has been jipped out of top spot before as well
3) and yes, none of us are skating judges but underhill and martini both were top skaters and they disagreed with it as well.
4) THE AMERICAN TEAM WAS BEAUTIFUL! but as someone said, they weren't in the best spot after the short program...where as the chinese team was, but they were happy and that's all that counts.
5) i have to say (and MY OPINION) SNOWBOARDING ISN'T BORING!!! who ever said that...have you seen how high those guys/girls go? or how fast their going or the flips they do? if you don't like it, you don't like it...that's fine but no one can say that it's boring!!! and the announcers are HALERIOUS in my opinion because they are such typical snowboards which makes their commentary so much more valid.
6) as for jamie and david going back to an old program? it "shouldn't" affect the mark. the last canadian pair to win gold at the olympics (in the sixties) went back to an old program as well. i heard these skaters say that a program is a program and love story fits jamie and david very well.
7) i thought the outfits suited jamie and david and the program very well. although they weren't flashy...that's not what the program was about!
8) as for the enthusiasm...they weren't over-doing it at all...they had skated the best performance of their life...why wouldn't they be happy? i've seen skaters before yell and jump around and still get first...i don't think that has much to do with it.
9) props to jamie for going on after getting body checked by anton (which wasn't his fault but he is bigger)
10) this is just my opinion so please don't jump all over me but JAMIE AND DAVID, THE CROWD AND EVEN THE RUSSIAN TEAM KNEW THAT JAMIE AND DAVID HAD WON! HOW COULD THE JUDGE OUT OF EVERYONE MISS THAT??!!??!!
that's my two cents and i guess now all we can do is accept it, be SO proud of jamie and david and hope the judges do get consquences for their actions so this won't happen again.
peace...

[Coreene]

I think I could take Vincent and Zimmerman on. Maybe not at the same time, but I am keeping both on my To Do list, hahahahahahahahahaaaaaaa!

[jr]

As to whether the Canadians were too enthusiastic about their performance....

i think that is one of the saddest things about our sport. At the big shows, it's not "in" to get too excited about a round or a ribbon. I watch class after class of kids and juniors accepting their ribbons with a grimace or a frown. Why do we do this if it isn't fun? And gee, if your horse puts in a nice round, give them a pat, maybe even a treat.

I think the Canadians were excited they did well, and hoped that meant gold. It would be nice to see that kind of enthusiasm at the show.

[DMK]

ooooooh, Coreene, I see yet another thread spiraling downward... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Keep your to do list... I have a Palm Pilot... I like to think I am connected with such matters /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Halfhalt, I do believe the Russians had a wee problem that way, but it was MUCH worse for good ole German Kaiser Willhelm. He was NEVER invited to Paris. Guess that might have been why he felt compelled to march all the way through neutral Belgium to get there! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

[Tin]

lol @ coreene! You slay me /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Gosh, imagine if hunters were in the Olympics? *shudder*

"well her collar isn't even monogramed, that should NOT be allowed"
"and did you see her hairnet? It wasn't even over her ears"
"oh and his horse actually blinked in his round, how embarressing" /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~ insert witty signature here ~

[Heidi]

Latest update: The ISU is launching an internal investigation.


I'd propose that we shift discussion to the following: how come the few men in our sport don't look like my boyfriend, John Zimmerman?

[Coreene]

I practically have to put ice down my back to cool off right now.

[InWhyCee]

As for speed and quality, the Canadian commentator (Barbara Underhill?) did say how beautifully the Russians skated in that respect. I don't think anyone would say their performance was lack-lustre.
_______________

Correction: I said the SECOND Russian pair (who skated to "West Side Story") were lack-lustre... and talk about dreadful costumes! As for Anton and What's Her Name, they ARE beautiful skaters, always have been, but they were NOT at their best last night, and there WERE mistakes on his part.

Good luck to those judges, explaining their ordinals... then again, where else but Skatingland does 4 Firsts and 2 Ties lose out to 3 Firsts and 2 Ties?
_________________________________

"Any ride is good ride if you dismount voluntarily."

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

[halfhalt]

Sorry, thought you were talking about the top Russian pair.

As for the scores, can anyone explain how the short program results influence the final standings? I still can't get over the fact that the commentators before the event kept on saying "whoever of the top 3 wins the long program, wins the gold" and then it didn't happen that way...

The short is supposed to count for 1/3; the way i see it, wouldn't that mean that even tho the Canadians won the long program (which they did on marks, maybe not ordinals?) the Russians might have had enough of a lead from the short program? i really can't figure this out. Even though it is based on ordinals for the long, how do they calculate in the short program results?

[halfhalt]

that there was a computer glitch?

[Sleepy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Is it remotely possible...

that there was a computer glitch? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you would think not. Surely they've been using the same software for some time now. And frankly scoring this is not exactly rocket science. Not in the same category as doing a 4-H judging contest. (I had to score several of those by hand before I understood how to code it.)

[TrakHack]

Remember the Sydney summer games when the vault was adjusted to the wrong height for the women's gymnastics? You wouldn't think that would have happened, either.

Does anyone think they would change the placing? If not, why have the inquiry? I'll be very interested to see how this situation progresses...

In the words of a true DQ, if you don't have anything nice to say, come sit by me... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Erin]

more interesting articles:

ISU launches inquiry into pairs judging (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2002/figure_skating/news/2002/02/12/isu_inquiry/)

A nation erupts -- Canadians furious after controversial skating decision (http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/olympics/2002/figure_skating/news/2002/02/12/canada_reax/)

from the second article:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The Globe and Mail newspaper ran a website poll asking whether judged events should be banned from the Olympics -- 71 percent agreed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

71 percent??! wow... judged events i can think of, off the top of my head -- dressage, eventing (in part), ALL of gymnastics (regular, rhythmic... isn't even trampoline judged?), all ice skating and ice dancing, synchronized swimming, snowboarding (i see hobson doing a happy dance /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), some skiing...

seems like this would be throwing the baby out with the bathwater. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif i think, at some point, if you compete in a judged sport you just have to accept that the judging methods are not foolproof...

[2Dogs]

GO DMK
A very succinct description of the dilemma of participating in a sport - any sport - where such intangibles as "style, grace, artistry, etc" need to be judged. These will always have a subjective element and the chances that there will be disagreement are very high.
But really, now, what is the alternative? Remove all events that don't require some subjectivity and rely only on the "objective" ? Think how much we would lose; think of the dullness of a world without such competition. Wretched -

[Linda Allen]

"Form is temporary; Class is permanent."

From the interviews of the 2 Canadian skaters that I saw, and their behavior during what had to be a VERY disappointing time -- these two are a CLASS ACT. I'll remember them far longer for that than for what color the medal was or what step they stood on.

For that matter the Russians didn't behave too badly either, given it was the kind of victory that had to be disappointing in its own way...

Compared with the Canadian skaters, the US Bobsledder might be great in the 'form' category, but his disappointment came across in the cry-baby category as far as I was concerned. JMHO

Linda Allen

[InWhyCee]

"whoever of the top 3 wins the long program, wins the gold" and then it didn't happen that way...
__________________________

Then again, it is possible to go from fourth to first, or fifth to third, provided the first- place skater really screws up ... the short program determines little more than who skates in the final group during the long program. A skater could probably go out and do quads and quints, but if she was tenth going in, forget it... not unlike when people say their horse can't win because he hasn't had enough "exposure," no?

I watch way to much skating, sorry!
___________

"Any ride is good ride if you dismount voluntarily."

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

[This message was edited by InWhyCee on Feb. 12, 2002 at 06:27 PM.]

[hobson]

So, correct me if I'm wrong because I don't watch much skating, but hasn't there long been corruption in the judging? It would seem that there shouldn't be a lot of surprise about this turn of events. Dismay, yes, but not surprise. My basic impression of skating as a non-fan outsider? Girls in slutty outfits twirling around and being judged by some myterious skating mafia.

I saw the replays on the news tonight of the 2 routines in question, and I really liked the Canadians' costumes because they seemed like a refreshing departure from the usual trashy sequined getups. I felt like I could see the actual skating better with the unadorned suits--they looked more like athletes and less like circus performers.

[AnnM]

As far as the Canadian skaters celebrating too quickly upon completing their performance...

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but the Russians, their main competition and only pair ahead of them after the short program, had already skated. If I were Sale and Pelletier and I saw the Russians' program, I would have thought that a clean, crisp program would be enough to win the gold. The NBC announcer, upon hearing the Russians' scores, said that the door was still open for the Canadians to slip through. I think that it's perfectably understandable for them to be extremely excited upon finishing their wonderful program. Granted, the Chinese pair hadn't competed yet and could have surpassed them, but still - they performed better than the Russians, which I presume was their goal when they went out on the ice.

Imagine a big equitation final. The rider who you're most worried about beating you goes before you and has a trip that's pretty good with some rough edges. You go in and lay down the trip of your life. I think it's a safe assumption that you can celebrate. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But of course it's never safe to assume anything in subjectively judged sports.

[FionaJ]

Interesting link about the fact that the French judge is saying she was forced by her federation to vote for the Russians in return for their vote in ice dancing. I apologise that I do not know how to post the link to enable you to go directly to it.





http://www.usatoday.com/sports/comment/brennan/2002-02-12-brennan-pairs.htm

[Erin]

there was just a bit on nbc news about the controversy, and, apparently, the judging in skating has in the past gone beyond simple politics and into outright fraud.

in 1998 in nagano, judges were caught on tape deciding the top 5 in ice dancing BEFORE the competition started. (and somewhere today i read an article stating the supposed top 5 for THIS year's ice dancing... i.e. it has also already been decided.)

in 1999, judges were caught communicating their placings to each other by tapping their feet. (i think this was also ice dancing, but i'm not positive.)

pretty frightening, eh? doesn't make the hunters look all that bad! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

--
*** DISCLAIMER: Please pardon me if this message seems overly abrupt, or there are blatant typos or a lack of capitalization. My left hand is broken and in a cast, and typing is not my favorite activity at the moment! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ***

[Erin]

wow, connor... thanks for posting that article. that pretty much sums it up, eh?

[Heidi]

David Pelletier and Jamie Salle are on Leno tonight, should anyone be interested in hearing their side of the story.

I did watch a bit of their news conference this afternoon and kudos to them for having the grace to rise above the politics with the affirmation that they skated a gold-medal performance.

I cannot imagine, though, how enraging it must be to work and train for a lifetime only to have your hopes and dreams dashed by corrupt judging.

[lilblackhorse]

yes, was wondering exactly that this aft when I heard about the enquiry on NPR...will they really make the poor Russian team give BACK their golds? It will be interesting to see how that all plays out.

BTW, I LOVE your tag line, that is so funny!
(sorry, typed my response, which was to be under yours, and it ended up like a page past! hot topic this!)


*Proud Founder of the Elipses Users Clique......We can't stop using them....*

[This message was edited by lilblackhorse on Feb. 12, 2002 at 07:34 PM.]

[FionaJ]

If it is a vote swapping between the French and Russians, then yes, they should give back the medals because sad as it is, they did not earn them. Pretty sad when something that blatent goes on.

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by coreene:
Have always thought he was utterly bonkable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's our Coreene, she of the one-track mind! You go, girl! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

***I see trees of green, red roses too. I watch 'em bloom for me and for you. And I think to myself ... what a wonderful world. Yes, what a wonderful world." -- Louie Armstrong.***

[J. Turner]

I haven't read all the posts on this, but if you're wondering why the French judge was part of the "bloc," it's explained in the article below:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/comment/brennan/2002-02-12-brennan-pairs.htm

Here's an important quote:
Increasingly, this is not just looking like a bad decision, but a fixed one. After the pairs long program on Monday and the judges' controversial 5-4 vote for the Russians, French judge Marie Reine Le Gougne, who voted for the Russians, told members of the International Skating Union's prestigious technical committee, as well as a few judges, that she was forced by her federation to vote for the Russians in a deal that would deliver a vote for the French team in the ice dancing competition later in the Olympic Games. There also were very credible reports that Le Gougne is trying to become a member of the important ISU technical committee, and that it's well known that Russian votes are needed to get yourself elected to that post."

The French ice dancing couple Annisina & Peizerat are favorites for the gold.

If you're interested in reading more, check out these figure skating sites and join in the discussion:

http://pub1.ezboard.com/bmichellekwanforum.html (Michelle Kwan Forum (Go to "Spoilers"))

or

Figure Skating World (FSWorld) (http://www.fsworld.com/threads/ubbthreads.php)

"Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
-- Shakespeare

"Oh please don't go -- we'll eat you up, we love you so."
-- Maurice Sendak

*** Member of the Rust Clique ***
*** Member of the Ebay Anonymous Clique ***
*** Member of the MKF (Michelle Kwan Forum)***

[Coreene]

Makes for one hell of a To Do List.

Should be very interesting to see how this spins out over the next few days. The skating, not my lust. It's very sad for all parties involved.

[daytimedrama]

well I for one agree that the Canadians skated better last night, plain and simple.

Someone earlier said that it is often not only judged on the preformance but also the warm up and previous rounds? Well I from experience have noticed that at horse shows. In the morning my horse and I were HORRIBLE in the hack, bucking and being terrible. Well We got it together for the class in the afternoon, (after a change in bit). I had two hunter classes judged by the same woman. I should have placed because they were great rounds, but my trainers and i have concluded, that I was not included in the ribbons, because that judged probably figured that I couldn't ride and I was being packed over the fences by my horse. (Which really isn't true I just suck on the flat).

~Christina~
"I don't patronize bunny rabbits!" -Heathers
*Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.*

[SquishTheBunny]

I wonder what the investigation will show? Do you think they will do anything about this absurd judging?

Brrrrrrr its cold.

[FionaJ]

At www.nbcolympics.com (http://www.nbcolympics.com) there is a poll for "who should have won" and the Canadians are up 96%

[DMK]

Oh wait, we were discussing the subjective world of figure skating, not Westminster... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Besides, I think the Corgi was done in by his stomach /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


"You can pretend to be serious; you can't pretend to be witty. "
- Sacha Guitry (1885-1957) *

[Fiction]

a) The corgi was so adorable! That funny dog in his group was my fave, it looked like a Rhasta Man!

b)My dad just told me that the Olympic Committee found that the French judge last night had made a deal with someone, so now they have to decide what to do with the results.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

-----
Me
-----

[elizabeth]

The article you and somebody else linked to doesn't say anything about being rigged or whatever. . . . Twenty bucks says the article was changed after it was posted for some blimey slander-related reasons. (Just my legal opinion. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[Peggy]

The joys of a judged sport, whether it be ice skating, eq finals, dressage selection trials or a dog show! I have a friend who shows orchids. You aren't in the room when they are judged and any identifying tags are removed. But he says that they many of the judges know whose plants they are anyway, based on how they are displayed, the plants themselves or the potting style. Needless to say, he and I have a great time discussing the politics of our hobbies.

One or two Olympics ago, one of the commentators justified a score given to someone (can't remember from which "block") by saying that you were judged for "a body of work over your career." Happens in horses too. Several years ago a kid from my trainer's barn rode beautifully in a zone AHSA final. A well-known judge (not one of the judges there) told my trainer after it was over and the kid ended up something like fourth, that "your kid rode beautifully and she should have won, but they aren't going to give it to a 14 y.o. who doesn't ride for a BNT."

[lilblackhorse]

Wow, maybe they should add that to the Olympics along with bridge, eh? LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif who knew that people did that sort of stuff competitively! Too funny.

*Proud Founder of the Elipses Users Clique......We can't stop using them....*

[InWhyCee]

"... the judging in skating has in the past gone beyond simple politics and into outright fraud."
-----------------------
Good luck to Skatingland (and all the other "subjective" sports, dressage included)... I've read that skating was so dismal at one point in the 1960s or 1970s that ALL the Soviet judges were banned from international competitions for one year... Latest is that the Chinese judge withdrew from judging tonight's men's competition because he isn't feel well... Go, Canada! (Or is it, Oh, Canada!?)

PS: The Corgi was robbed? The German Shepard!
_________________________

"Any ride is good ride if you dismount voluntarily."

"Go on, Bill... This is no place for a pony."

[Smiles]

Well I think Elvis should have been in the top 6 with his performence!!! Well guess what the russian falls and he was in 5th and Elvis doesn't fall and was in 7th. Can we just say that these judges suck!!!! Canada you guys are getting robbed this olympics!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[*SERAPH*]

Without a doubt the Canadians won-unfortunately "politics" play a big part in every aspect of life.Because of subjective judging the skaters who should have and did win gold were demoted for one reason or another;precisely the reason I do jumpers and would have no desire to do any other sport than maybe racing or endurance riding.Personally, if I had worked hard enough to make it to the Olympics, I wouldn't want any medal unless I truly felt I deserved it.

[dbtoo]

I agree that the judging stinks, for both the pairs and the men's this evening.

But ...the skaters go into the Olympics knowing the way the game is played, knowing the judging system and by doing so they agree to play by those "rules". Just like those of us who do hunters know how that game is played and agree to play by those "rules".

I don't know about you but I'd rather be the Canadians knowing they gave the performance of their lives and won the hearts and souls of the world and only having a silver medal than being the Russian pair that have the gold but will always be under the shadow of how it was won.

[J. Turner]

Christine Brennan did change it! Holy cow. Well, what I posted really was from the article. Scott Hamilton and his on air partner mentioned the allegations about the French judge last night. I particularly enjoyed watching the judges run away from the camera!

Here's an article from ESPN:
http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/winter02/figure/story?id=1330977

Doesn't name names, but names countries.

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by coreene:
Have always thought he was utterly bonkable. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Who would want coreene as a judge? I would! She may not score by jumps and spins but she definitely stands by what she believes in!

[diane]

Who won best of show ???? my corgi and I had our hopes ..... but didn't see the end ????

[AM]

The little poodle.

[monstrpony]

and, big surprise, it happens there, too. Even tho the owner isn't present when the rabbit is judged--some get well known, some lines have certain characteristics, yadda, yadda, yadda. Where's Mr. Spock when you need him? We need cyborg judges or some such. It's just human nature, can't live with it, can't live without it.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Horsesense]

IMHO it is very bad form and manners for Jamie, the skater, to say in televised interviews that they should have won, they were robbed, they were the gold medal team, andthat "everyone" knew they should have won. A more appropriate attitude is that, "we did our best and sometimes you win when you should lose and sometimes you lose when you should win." Certainly the fact that the biased audience cheered loudest for them and (sadly) booed for the Russians doesn't mean they were the "winners." I dare say that none of us, and none (or very few) members of the audience are ice skating judges. I AM NOT DENYING THAT THERE MAY HAVE BEEN BIAS, ALLIANCES AMONG THE JUDGES, FAVORS CALLED IN, OR PRESSURE EXERTED. All I'm saying is the fact that we Americans and Canadians, and the predominately American and Canadian audience, and the American commentators liked the Canadians better does not mean that they should have won. At some point, gracious acceptance (regardless of a personal opinion) is far more appropriate and laudible than the "I was robbed" mantra.

[lauriep]

in dog showing that the judging at Westminster is usually a foregone conclusion too.

Subjectivity is what it is and unfortunately, there is no other way to judge the MANY sports and hobbies that use this method. I know that you win some you shouldn't and lose some you should win, and it balances out in the end. Unfortunately for the Canadians, the latter came true in such an important competition.

NBC Today said this morning that unless a major infraction can be proven (results fixing), the Russians will be allowed to keep the gold.

Laurie

[PMJ]

I don't agree about the commentators. Scott Hamilton certainly knows the world of figure skating and a good performance without flaws that is electric beats a flawed, tired performance. I was very impressed with his assessment last night after he had as he put it "time to think about it."

The interviews I have seen of the Canadian pair have been gracious. Did they say that directly to a reporter, or was it during that backstage fiasco with the cameras intruding in. They have certainly been more gracious than many, and regardless, acknowledging the fact that such a blatent, flagrent error has taken place is not a bad thing--I've always felt the Olympics since they are not supposed to be political (the flag controversy) should gasp be fair.

[FionaJ]

Interesting fact

"It was the second time they [Canadians]questioned where they were placed by the judges. The first time was after a Grand Prix final in France three years ago. "

In France!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

This was cool too: ""Our own gold medal is winning the hearts of everybody," said Pelletier. "When you have the respect from your peers, this is worth more than anything else.""

Does anyone think that the fact that so many people are in arms about this may actually effect what ultimately happens? There have, of course, been controversy before, but since there was such a marked difference between the programs--meaning what they showed side by side on NBC last night with the missed jump vs landed one, and the quality of the throws--and that the lay person could see the difference that at least some judging reform--serious--might occur. Also, since the alleged agreement between the French and Russians [(and it adds up since France is in the running for the Ice Dancing gold)plus the fact it was odd that the French went out on a limb--face it, wouldn't you have expected the others to put the Russians first--]has been reported that something may have to be done to make sure the sport remains an Olympic one. I do feel sorry for the Russians though--especially since they seemed to realize they did not perform as well and hence did not deserve the win--wouldn't that be an awful feeling.

[bertha]

I don't have time to read all the pages so if I am repeating...

Unfortunately everyone has different levels of talent. The horse world, made up of talented horses AND riders, is a great example. People pay the big bucks so that they can make a mistake and still win. I actually give credit to the judges, its like you have a great round, but get a little close to one jump, that should still put you ahead of a horse that has 8 perfect distances if your horse is of better overall quality.

The American pair skated perfectly as well, should they have won the gold? Skating/riding to your best ability does not guarantee first.

[beameup]

i loved the little black affenpinscher (sp?), oooh what a face! now i want one.
but to get back to the olympics - i thought the canadians had the gold for sure - they had a spirited and technically great performance, while the russians looked tired and slow, plus they had a goof in that jump-in-the-air thing. i wasn't crazy over the canadian costumes - i like a little razzle dazzle (wish we didn't have to dress like 17th century gentlemen in dressage)...but i understand that there's going to be an inquiry into what the french judge stated. if she's being truthful, then it's outright fraud. what a pity! i wonder if they will reassign the medals? can they do that?

[Oppok]

I don't know why everyone is making such a big deal of it this year. It happens practically EVERY year. Last olympics the Dance competition was rigged and there were tapes to prove it. There are already rumours that the dance competition is rigged again. Jamie and David know they did their best, they know they won the hearts of everyone and the Russian team didn't look too happy on the podium. The Canadian team even said "we haven't lost anything, we did our best and WON the silver medal" They also questioned why people were feeling sorry for them. Don't get me wrong, I think it sucks that judging can be rigged, but until humans can learn to live without bias that'll never happen!

[dublin]

If in fact there was proven collusion between several of the judges, I would think there would be no doubt that they would have to reverse the first and second placings, and award Sale and Pelletier the gold.

I for one will be very interested to see what happens with the ongoing investigation.

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller

[FionaJ]

Elizabeth

The article that you read is the one dated today (2-13). The article that refered to the French-Russian vote swap was yesterday.

[lillian]

Yes, the Corgi was robbed, but the Rhody was very nice, too. Hobson -- I'm a wanna-be snowboarder, learning from my nephew, who often says to me: "nice face plant." To all the Canadians: the tear-jerker performance by the Canadian team was picture-perfect. It wasn't just the skaters who were robbed, it was the whole country. My opinion? Remove skating from the games. This sort of stuff goes on year after year, not only in the Olympics, but at the World Championships as well. It will never change... /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[the sauce]

yeah, maybe jamie and david did say some things about what happened that they should've have but COME ON...they just got robbed of their medal... wouldn't you probably say things you shouldn't have? i, for one, don't think i would've been able to hold my composure as well as they did! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif
also, even if they DO reverse the medals (which i think is highly unlikely but who knows) it won't be the same...yeah they will have the gold circles attached to the ribbon but it's not the same as actually winning them at the time ya know?
peace...

[Coreene]

And wazzup with the haircut where the front end looks like a schnauzer (SP?) and the back half looks like a poodle?

[Beezer]

Or should I say, their haircuts befuddle me ... someone needs to give those pooches a serious makeover!

I'd have voted for the Ridgeback. Too very cool. But then, I voted for the Canadians, too. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

***I see trees of green, red roses too. I watch 'em bloom for me and for you. And I think to myself ... what a wonderful world. Yes, what a wonderful world." -- Louie Armstrong.***

[dogchushu]

Absolutely the corgi was robbed! I know, I know, I don't have any idea what breed standards are. But how can you not pick a dog with the sense to pick up all the treats dropped on the floor? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"I always wanted to be somebody, but I should have been more specific." -- Lily Tomlin

[poltroon]

Figure skating judging is based on the relative placement by each judge - the actual numeric mark is not part of the scoring. That is why the russian pair won even though the canadian pair had a higher numeric score. (It's like US presidential elections /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

This was instituted several years ago because certain judges were accused of artificially inflating scores to benefit their skaters.

I think that this 'ordinal' system is part of the problem. Essentially, they have to decide where the skater will go on their list BEFORE ALL THE SKATERS HAVE GONE. This is why they almost have to prejudge the competition. At least when they do scores for hunters there are 100 possible scores and judges can do halves if they must. If it's not a classic, they can revise the score. In the big eq finals, they keep a running list and insert riders where they belong.

Dressage has problems with prejudging based on one's body of work as well. However, since each movement gets a score, ties aren't likely and it's a little harder mathematically to rig.

[TrakHack]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
Absolutely the corgi was robbed! I know, I know, I don't have any idea what breed standards are. But how can you not pick a dog with the sense to pick up all the treats dropped on the floor? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amen to that!!!

I think the harm that can come to the world of figure skating/hunters/dressage/dog shows if the public KNOWS that the placings are fixed is that people will stop being interested. It's like "professional wrestling", where the whole dang thing is scripted.

It's hard to figure out when it's a really good skater/horse/rider/dog and they deserve to repeatedly win, or when they win repeatedly because of "agreements". The rivalry and uncertain outcome is half the fun of watching (think Anky&Bonfire and Isabelle&Gigolo over the last two Olympics!)

[FionaJ]

Thought this was interesting [from MSNBC]:

" FIGURE SKATING�S RULING BODY announced an inquiry into the judging based on an allegation of judging irregularities from the referee.
ISU president Ottavio Cinquanta said Wednesday that the referee of the pairs competition, American Ronald Pfenning, �has made certain allegations� about the controversial judging of the event.
Cinquanta did not say what allegations Pfenning made in a letter to the federation. Cinquanta admitted there were other allegations, �but the most important is the one of the referee. He is the coordinator of the competition.�
However, Cinquanta said no appeal has been filed and he has no indication that anyone planned to appeal.
�It would be very, very difficult (for the council) to overturn the decision,� he said, saying the ISU would hear an appeal if one is made.
The referee � Ronald Phenning from the United States � sent a letter the day after the competition detailing what he felt were irregularities within the scoring by the judges.
Cinquanta, who said those would be discussed at an ISU meeting Monday, said he spoke a person he declined to name and said there had been a denial of the allegations.
Cinquanta added the ISU would not change the judges for the ice dance competition. There have been allegations of a trade-off between judges of countries in the pairs competition with those involved in the ice dance.
Cinquanta said he was �embarrassed� by the media and public reaction to the situation, saying he didn�t believe a report in The Globe and Mail of Toronto that a deal had been struck last week that tied the pairs competition to the outcome of the ice-dancing competition.
ESPN also cited unnamed sources within the ISU, and the newspaper cited unnamed sources.
The Russians won a 5-4 split even though Sikharulidze stepped out of a double axel.



Cinquanta said he has given the ISU a proposal to modify the process by which figure skating events are judged. That proposal will be debated when the ISU meets.
�We are on the eve of a possible revision (of the rules),� he said.
Cinquanta, however, said he thought the 5-4 voting showed that the competition was very close.
�I cannot give the public the right to judge the figure skating,� Cinquanta said.
Veteran U.S. coach Frank Carroll questioned whether the French judge, Marie Reine Le Gougne, voted for the Russians in a deal to avenge a loss by the French dance team to the Canadians at the Grand Prix in Canada in December.
�Does that mean now the Russian judge possibly is going to give the French dance team first?� Carroll asked.
The Globe reported that deals were made for Italians Barbara Fusar-Poli and Maurizio Margaglio to win gold in ice dancing ahead of Russians Irina Lobacheva and Ilia Averbukh.
As part of the arrangement reported by The Globe, French skaters Marina Anissina and Gwendal Peizerat would get the bronze medal in ice dancing. There isn�t a French judge on the ice-dancing panel."

Gee, so even if vote swapping took place, and the Russian federation was involved, they are

rewarded /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif for cheating and the rules get switched so it can't happen again--what exactly does that message send out as far as values go. This really disgusts me because it seems that actions have no real consequences.

[lillian]

Beezer -- the poodle clip actually has a purpose -- to keep the joints warm while the dog is chasing game through brush, and (gasp) actually into the water. The hair is shaved everywhere else to avoid brambles, etc. matting the coat. I do believe, however, that the clip has become a bit exaggerated over the years... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I've owned both Corgis and Rhodys but will admit, that poodle was really nice.

[fleur]

Yeah, they aren't just little pillow-warmers, they actually had a sporting purpose /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm glad she won.

*EMMA*
http://emmapony.diaryland.com

[tle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That is why the russian pair won even though the canadian pair had a higher numeric score. (It's like US presidential elections )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

egads... next thing you know we're all going to be wondering where the missing chads are!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!

[Canter]

My poodle distains those poodle clips.
Calls them topiary dogs. I must agree.
However, in competition fair is fair - the corgi lost. The poodle rocks.

[KarmicGal]

I think that most people are really, really over reacting here. First let us remember what most people seem to have forgotten,

FIGURE SKATING IS A SUJECTIVE SPORT (yelling intended)

If that bothers people then go watch something timed, where this is no doubt. Whenever there is subjectivity, opinions will always follow, and opinions are rarely the same.

Now onto some comments directly related to the skating:

-I know the short programs only count for, what, a third of the marks, but that still gives the Russians the advantage going into it. Not a huge one, but in the Olympics I figure every little bit counts.

- The collision affected not only Jamie but Anton as well. In my opinion it looked like Jame ran into him, accidentally. During the Russians program the commentators mentioned how odd it was that he didn't nail his first jump, and it is usually his partner that has problems. In an ideal world the judges wouldn't take what I'm about to say into consideration, but our world is far from ideal. The judges just may have put less weight on that movement because they were thinking of the after effects of the collision, just maybe. I might be off, that might have never cross there minds, but it IS a possibility. Really, when you've seen someone land the same jump over and over again in competitions, and then when they do mess it up it's after a collision, they might be thinking that had something to do with it.

- The Canadians got higher technical marks. I completely agree with that, they skated very cleanly. The Russians got better artistic marks, artistry is all about personal interpretation, so you can see where that gets tricky. The Russians moved me WAY more than the Canadians did. Some jobs seemed to have felt the same, others didn't. Neither are wrong.

-The Russians did have some technical advantages: they had A LOT more speed, their lifts were more innovative and the whole choreographer I believed was trickier and more creative. Judges may have taken that into account. It is harder to land your jump when you are covering tons of ground, as opposed to when you only go an average speed.

- I feel David's reaction was inappropriate after the skate. The kissing the ice wasn't that bad (annoying but I can deal), but the way how after he leaned backed and pumped his fists into the air, that just looked arrogant. It looked like he was saying, " We won the gold," and the was a premature assumption. Now technically that shouldn't effect the marks either but judges are human and I feel they don't like to see arrogance. Looking happy, proud, confident etc is just wonderful, but over doing does not come off looking classy at all.

- Also, was it only me who noticed Jamie and David talking to each other during the Russian national anthem?

Arguments can be made for either side, I can put together an argument that the Russians should have one (more difficult program, more speed, superior artistry) or one that the Canadains should have won (very technically accuratly, very dramatic) but in the end it all comes down to opinion. And in the end the Canadians DID do better on technical merit!

If you don't like the way it is being judged with humans maybe we should create robots to judge technical merit, then there would be no debates, but then how can something with no emotions judge artistry? Isn't artistry all about how it effects your emotions? How do we know that the judges weren't simply moved more by the Russians? Just because some of the judges didn't feel that way, and a lot of the public didn't feel that way doesn't make those feelings wrong, or corrupt.

KG

[Coreene]

Yes, I did see that and I too thought it was rude. Happened a few years ago during the World Cup in Las Vegas (saw it on tv in Holland). Markus Fuchs or whomever, a Swiss guy I think, won on one of the days and (here) unnamed lady spoke during the entire Swiss national anthem, totally ignoring it.

[dublin]

Subjectivity is one thing; POSSIBLE FIXING OF THE RESULTS BY THE JUDGES IS QUITE ANOTHER (yelling also intended).

In an updated article from NBC Sports, the French judge has admitted that she voted for the Russians due to being pressured to do so by the French Figure Skating Association. A further hearing on the matter is now scheduled for February 18th.

Judge says she was pressured (http://www.msnbc.com/news/705743.asp)

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller

[KarmicGal]

It just seems to me like this has happened before and a MUCH bigger deal is being made of it now. I'm just wondering, why now? You are going to hear some people say that the judges were definitely fixing it and others say something else. In the paper this morning I read how the Canadian judge was shocked that some put the Canadians second, BUT she absolutely did NOT feel any of the judges were doing any underhanded work; she felt they were all just being honest.

Even though the French judge admitted it you have to keep in mind that it was the one ordinal that determined the Gold an Silver. However the way some people are making it sound is that EVERYONE should have gone for the Canadians HANDS DOWN, NO QUESTIONS ASKED. I don't think things are quite that black and white. And how do you know that even if she wasn't pressured the French might have chosen the Russians anyway? Or maybe another judge would have too, there are so many, variables in the equation that there is NO simple answer.

Even if we decide the judging system needs work you will never rule out the subjectivity,and what diffence will being able to ask the judges (as some commentators and reporters have suggested) why they placed it the way they did do? As I mentioned it's very easy to state arguments for either side.

There's a lot of perspectives but I just feel a very biased side is being portrayed in the news, it is very pro Canadian, which makes SENSE, I guess I shouldn't really be surprised. Actually, I guess I'm NOT surprised. I just feel that a lot of people are getting too cut up on the "it has to be absolutely clear" thing, and not taking into account that a lot of others come into play, and subjectivity is one of those things. I mentioned above why, perhaps/maybe/there's a slight chance, they did not mark the 2 footed landing very severely. Why they maybe figured in the grand scheme it wasn't enough to ruin the whole program (ruined being relative, I mean ruining there chances of gold. It certainly, under no circumstances would take a way from the quality of the rest of the program).

*sigh*, It's a tough thing that happened, I certainly wouldn't have felt upset if the Canadians won. I just think all this press afterwards is really blowing things out of proportion in a rather biased way.

KG
*Who's content to be in the 4% of +200 000 people that feel the Russians deserved the gold*

[Fred]

the French judge has admitted that she was forced by her federation to vote for the Russian pair "no matter what" - in exchange, the Eatern bloc judges would vote for the French pair in the ice dance - ensuring them gold. Who, therefore is going to lose, before they even step on the ice? Shaelyn and Victor. Of course, this has happened to them before.... same thing, different Olympics. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
I love to watch figure skating, but this blatant dishonesty and crookedness really does leave a bad taste in one's mouth.

I watched closely during the Russian anthem, and Jamie Sale really broke down and started crying - at that point David spoke to her, and she pulled herself together. +)_)*&^ I felt like crying, and I haven't been skating for 6 hours a day, for the last 18 years of my life, with my a$$ hitting more ice than the Titanic.

I know that skating, like dressage, like the hunters is subjective - but RIGGED, decided before it even began? unfair and biased and crooked?
I can't believe that our sport is anything near as despotic as that!
and now they are suggesting that Elvis got slammed even harder than he should have been, because he's Canadian - and the all-powerful judges are gonna teach 'em a lesson.

let's see what happens in the ice dance. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

an aside: somebody better shoot me. While watching the dog show, I'm thinking, "maybe I should get a show dog"...
calling LaurieB... talk me down, talk me down...
meanwhile my lovely German Shepherd (I coulda been a contenda).. is out rolling in horse poop... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[FionaJ]

I continue to be impressed with both the Canadian skaters and the Canadian Federation. I think it is really classy to suggest a duplicate gold be awarded if the charges bear out instead of stripping the Russians. Interesting that the IOC has now spoken out about this at a press conference. I don't think the skating folks will be able to sweep this under the carpet with promised "reform"

[Flash44]

Maybe they should ban skating from the next Olympics. Seems drastic, but if you can't play by the rules, you should not be playing.

How do you explain to a kid's parents that the thousands and thousands and thousands of dollars they spent on their kid's sport is just money down the drain? When the kid gets to the competition, the results have been decided before they even turn on the lights!

Pitcher bane soot owen. Weer goon downeyoshin.

[lilblackhorse]

the events before they happen....my husband and I were talking about this, and it sounds like it has happened before.
Ok, say they all decide that germany wins first, russia second, france third. My question is, how they hell can they actually do this...say, especially if the german team falls thee times, and russia once? Do they have some secret code to tell the other judges that the deal is off...I mean, come on, wouldn't it LOOK totally rigged if the ones who wiped out STILL got first by all the judges????

I'm just curious about the logistics of cheating..as for the judging, I can also see the other view as presented eloquently by the poster who's name I have forgotten (sorry)...but the rigging of the judging is inexcusable.

BTW, I love your analogy FRed about sale's ass hitting more ice than the titanic!LOLOL very clever..

*Proud Founder of the Elipses Users Clique......We can't stop using them....*

[lauriep]

spectator sport in the Olympics? The judges who are corrupt are the ones who should be banned. The sport is beautiful to watch and takes many years of constant hard work to master; the judging and scoring clearly needs to be revamped, but it certainly should stay an Olympic sport.

If we find the same things in dressage, should we ban it too? Or hunters from horse shows? The sports MUST police themselves, and the national federations must take swift, severe action against those judges caught manipulating the results in any way. And making them justify their scores to a "judging overseer" of some sort (preferably a former champion of unquestioned character) should be part of the process.

Laurie

[Gubgub]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lilblackhorse:

Ok, say they all decide that germany wins first, russia second, france third. My question is, how they hell can they actually do this...say, especially if the german team falls thee times, and russia once? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, this scenario happened in Ice Dance at the last Olympics. Bourne & Kraatz (Canada) skated a clean, innovative, energetic program and the Russian couple actually FELL during their free dance and still won the competition /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

It seems there was no mandatory deduction in Ice Dance at the time for a fall. After much shouting and threats to remove the "sport" of Ice Dance from future Olympics, rule changes were implemented. Too late for the Canadian skaters who continue to skate as amateurs and are doomed, if the rumours are correct, never to medal no matter how well they do /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[halfhalt]

You'ld think that the easiest way to assuage the public about past outrageous decisions in ice dance would be to make sure that B and K medal, not to shut them out.....are they being punished for speaking out? (i can't recall if they did or not)

[Jair]

I think that is exactly the problem Halfhalt - Bourne & Kratz did speak up about their views on unfair judging. Unfortunately it does seem to have hindered their ability to "medal" well.

Their Riverdance skate at the last olympics where the Russian's fell, really should have been the silver if not the gold, rather than the bronze. But oh well....

I agree that they should consider, or at least threaten to ban the sport from the Olympics in order to get everything straightened out. After all its the gold medals that everyone is cheating/backstabbing and downright schemeing for! Take away the ultimate prize and I think things might change. I bet all the skating moms would be at the judges throat by that point at the thought that little Betsy ain't got a chance at the olympics no more /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[bertha]

Maybe the final decision came down to that the Canadian woman's "panties" were rather high cut, as well as it appeared that she was not wearing a bra. They said they would count off for being "too sexy."

Actually since I have them on tape, I watched again and the Canadian pair had form breaks throughout their program (their movements were not matched all the time). However, the crowd roared constantly through out the program, and the music was wonderful. But as for the quality of the skating, the Russians are far superior.

[Bethe Mounce]

What I liken figure skating to is the freestyles in dressage. There are technical and artistic scores awarded in each.

Dressage judges are paid to judge, figure skating judges are not. They are volunteers. I found that to be most fasinating.

Judging is subjective in figure skating, I think that was proven the other night when the Russians were awarded gold. Judging freestyles in dressage can be subjective as well....what if a certain judge has an aversion to certain types of music?

However, dressage judges go thru a very rigorous training program to become judges. I wonder how thorough the training is for the figure skating judges.

I preferred the Canadians; there were no obvious flaws in their performance. A few form breaks might have been all, but it was most obvious in the Russian's program that there was a blatant flaw.

I hope the French judge was not persuaded to give the Russians gold in the pairs in return for the gold to go to the French in ice dancing tomorrow night. But, if that becomes truth after the investigation is complete, then figure skating judges ought to be paid and not be volunteers.

[PMJ]

What I read on CNN or MSNBC was that the trade off was for the Canadian Ice Dancers to get the Bronze

[Quinn]

bertha, how incredibly lucky for us to have such a pro right here on our own board. Thank you for taking the time to view the tape again and grace us with your highly valued opinion.

Yes, that is dripping with sarcasm but suffice it to say, if I know nothing about a subject, I do not respond.

[This message was edited by Quinn on Feb. 14, 2002 at 01:11 PM.]

[Flash44]

NBC paid something like $700 MILLION to broadcast the Olympics. Do you really think people are going to watch skating if it is rigged? Do you think NBC or any other company would spend that much money to show sports that had predetermined outcomes? The Olympics earn over half their revenue from broadcasting sales. Are companies going to bid that much money for crap competitions?

Pitcher bane soot owen. Weer goon downeyoshin.

[This message was edited by Flash44 on Feb. 14, 2002 at 02:51 PM.]

[PMJ]

Fox news is reporting that the male Russian figure skater is now quoted as saying that they could have skated perfectly if they, like the Canadians, had done a routine that was x [can't remember how old] years old.

I felt sorry for them until such an arrogant statement came out.

[PMJ]

Interesting
Link (http://waymoresports.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=waymoresports/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1013641311641&call_page=WM_Figure)

edited to shorten link

[This message was edited by Erin on Feb. 14, 2002 at 07:21 PM.]

[the sauce]

although kicking skating out of the olympics would solve the judging problem...how could they do that to the skaters? it's not the skater's fault that all of this has happened and banning it would be punishing them more than anything.
peace...

[onthebit]

I think they summed it up nicely. Whether the Russians should have won or not is irrelevant at this point if a judge has admitted to fixing the vote. That is not a fair win and that judge not only scored the canadians and russians unfairly but probably other skaters too. If you know how you are going to vote for the competition begins you are not handing out scores based on the performances you just watched!!

[bertha]

So sorry if I offended you Quinn. For some odd reason I thought this board was to post opinions. I guess I will keep my posts on Towerheads. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[J. Turner]

In some competition the head referee caught some of the judges "playing footsie" -- i.e. giving signals to each other.

"Nothing is good or bad, but thinking makes it so."
-- Shakespeare

"Oh please don't go -- we'll eat you up, we love you so."
-- Maurice Sendak

*** Member of the Rust Clique ***
*** Member of the Ebay Anonymous Clique ***
*** Member of the MKF (Michelle Kwan Forum)***

[Fred]

took place at the last Olympics, when ShaeLyn and Victor (B&K) were frozen out despite their innovative and difficult "Riverdance" routine. It came out THEN that the results had been decided before the competition took place, but there was no major outcry either from the media or the public. Instead B&K continued to bear the wrath of those overweight/overwraught judges.
Truely they are despots, all-powerful in their tiny little world - who are not "paid", but can certainly be "bought".
Dick Pound, the IOC official has said that skating will be banned from the Olympics if the skating federation doesn't get this cleared up - because the Olympics are being tarred with the same "fixed" brush.
It would be a shame, I think most of us love to watch figure skating, but it really makes you feel sick when the fix is so blatant.

as I said earlier, my horse competes in a subjective discipline (hunters) - and I know that there are some politics or whatever going on - although I have no idea how or what - but I would hate to think that the results have been decided before the horse even steps into the ring.
I know that I don't have the numero uno rider, and I think that if I did, the horse might get a better 'look' from the judge sometimes,and that might mean the benefit of the doubt in certain situations, but that is a choice I made, consciously, knowing it might or would cost me the top ribbons sometimes. But the fact that the horse does win his fair share tells me that subjective it is, fixed it is not.
I also compete in another very subjective area - the line shows... and my horse has done very well indeed. I just want to say for the record, I HAVE NOT HAD SEX WITH THAT WOMAN, er, WITH ANY OF THE JUDGES, EVER. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif which may explain why my horse has done so well! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[lilblackhorse]

The new Newsweek, just got it yesterday (20 Feb), has a great cover article on the sleazy side of skating. I hadn't paid attention I guess to all the shennigans that went on in past years....Now I know what some of you were talking about. Wow....can we say "corrupt?" /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif .....It's worth a read...I bet even hunters are as bad as this sport!

*Proud Founder of the Elipses Users Clique......We can't stop using them....*

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bethe Mounce-Blasienz:
Dressage judges are paid to judge, figure skating judges are not. They are volunteers. I found that to be most fasinating.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think equally interesting is that the judges are not selected by the organizers, but by each federation. So, the French federation picks a judge, and the Russian federation picks a judge, and the US federation picks a judge, etc.

Personally, I think that's just bizarre. I'm glad in horse showing the show manager picks the judges, and the nationality seems to be less primary.

[halfhalt]

There is no way that the organizing committee of, say, the World Figure skating championships could pick the judges. It's not the same as a horse show at all, where all the competitors here in N. America are from at most 2 countries, since i doubt Mexico does hunters.....Besides, the fact that the horse show manager picks the judge can create its own problems......

[Hailey]

About 8-10 years ago, I belonged to a figure skating club. One of the members was actually an international judge - I believed she judged figures. This woman was so freaking blind she actually had to get her nose almost on the ice to see the tracings - and this was wearing glasses! It was a big joke among the club members.

The perks for these judges are absolutely marvelous. They get to travel all over the world for nothing - all their expenses are covered, so it costs them nothing. They get to socialize with all the bigwigs - after all, they are one themselves. Wouldn't you volunteer for something like that? I know I would! I suspect that many of these people are not really all that well qualified, either.