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M. O'Connor
Oct. 18, 2001, 07:47 PM
What a shame! Hang in there... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

M. O'Connor
Oct. 18, 2001, 07:47 PM
What a shame! Hang in there... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Erin
Oct. 18, 2001, 07:55 PM
For those who have not been following the other thread (which I just closed), Musical Jumper had to put her horse Seger down today.

Sincerest condolences. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Janet
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:00 PM
Poor MJ.
It is a big burden.

UndeniedGirl
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:00 PM
The reason he was put down was unrelated to his weight issue, and they (she and her vet) tried very hard to not have to, but it just wasnt going to work. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I posted about this already on the other thread that was closed...maybe a moderater could copy it here? Thanks..

*Cass*
<~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~>

Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith...

Life is not a spectator sport!

Smile...it makes people wonder what you have been doing /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:00 PM
thank you ..... he was a special boy.. and tonight he is in heaven with all the other great horses such as him....

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

Nirvana
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:13 PM
Tiff,
I am so so sorry to hear about your loss. Seger fought a vailiant battle, and I know you did the best you could. Hang in there....we're all here for you

ErinB
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:22 PM
Edited because I now choke at the thought of supporting this girl. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[This message was edited by ErinB on Oct. 24, 2001 at 07:14 PM.]

UndeniedGirl
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:27 PM
exactly /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*Cass*
<~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~>

Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith...

Life is not a spectator sport!

Smile...it makes people wonder what you have been doing /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DebS
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:32 PM
I've followed your story from a distance, please accept my condolences.

As for the story being real or made up...
I'd rather be wrong and kind, than right and mean.

To each his own.

(the above was in response to a post that has since been removed.)

Becca
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:36 PM
MJ- I'm very sorry /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif It hurts so much to lose someone that you love that much.

I hope your pulling through ok!
*big hug*
Becca

Jo
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:38 PM
So sorry for your loss, M_J.

Can I be so bold as to ask what the problem was? I know someone said it was unrelated to the weight issue. If it's too difficult to talk about, I understand.

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:42 PM
your comments are helpful.....

but unfortunately i just received an instant message from someone on here who obviously was not ahppy with me.. i have no idea who she/he was.. only thier aol name.. but aywayz.... they were obviously quite upset with me and i dont know why... i did not get to read the deleted messages.... i am working on my website and researching what to do with the jockey club registry right now and thought id stop in.....

my story i assure you IS NOT made up.....

i thank you all who are supportive.. and will keep the comments to the others in myown head .. i woudl not dare to act as foolish as they have in front of so many people......

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

Bumpkin
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:44 PM
He will be in my prayers tonight and he will live on in our dreams. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[This message was edited by Bumpkin on Oct. 23, 2001 at 07:47 PM.]

JustJump
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:45 PM
This is just the worst! I'm truly, truly sorry. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 08:45 PM
well. i would rather not talk about it right now.... i know you understand

ETBW>>> that was a very nice excerpt...(sp?)

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:03 PM
ETBW>> thank you dearly..... i have not yet been able to really cry..... i dont cry in front of fmily and mother had company.. its just something that makes me look weak i guess.....
i hope that your equines are great on this evening..... i know they know how much you love them....

you know.... as i look outside tonight its a nice night actually...... and i am wondering if its b/c my dear Seger is trotting amongst the stars watching over me.... telling me its ok...we'll be together eventually.....

but thats just from me..... and im pretty emotional tonight....

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

Waterwatch
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:04 PM
I'm so sorry /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:04 PM
winglet >>> thanks !

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

DocHF
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:08 PM
*

[This message was edited by Dr Horsefeathers on Oct. 26, 2001 at 10:19 AM.]

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:23 PM
Dr.>>> i appologize for my comment.....

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

hifi
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:28 PM
I will say a litle prayer for you and your special boy. He is galloping in heaven with my mare Beauty and Penny and Velvet and George.

If you can't beat 'em, try harder. And God Bless America my home sweet home!

Miniwelsh
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:28 PM
I am so sorry for your loss. From what I saw, Seger was a beautiful boy. I know paying for all costs must have been tough on you and you are a good kid to have taken so much on.

I am very sorry that at such a young age you had to go through something as sad as this. But I know my little mare Suzy who we had to put down a few weeks ago was waiting up on the Rainbow Bridge for a tall handsome horse to escort her across. I am sure she will love your handsome seger.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:30 PM
yes... and i can just bet they will send us thier familliar winnies when we reach thier new homes in the future....and they are happy and do not feel any pain....

and id like to think that seger will win his races in heaven..... he deserves a win..... he really won my heart in the short time we were together....

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

Winglet
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:34 PM
you're one post away from 700...

JoHn (WiNgLeT)

"Horse sense is what a horse has that prevents him from betting on people..."
-W.C. Fields

On the other hand, the early WORM gets eaten...

Look at my ultra cool site!
www.geocities.com/winglet18 (http://www.geocities.com/winglet18)

In The Gate
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:41 PM
M-J, I'm so sorry. If there's anything we can do for you, let us know.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:41 PM
only you would notice that....

well, for my 700th post i will let y'all in about some info you may not know about Seger....

He was sired by Supron wh i have heard was great but never got to see, out of a beauty of a bay mare named Cherry Wouldn't.

His registerd name was Cherry Uppers, and while he did race he never won.

just some tidbits of info.....

InGate>> thank you.....

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

[This message was edited by Musical_Jumper on Oct. 18, 2001 at 11:52 PM.]

hoopoe
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:51 PM
I bet as you looked outside at the stars tonight you saw Pegasus rising. ( looks like a large box) Fall is such a glorious time for stars.

Wish I had arms long enough to reach you.

Sweet dreams

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 09:54 PM
yes.. it really is.... i am often known for sneaking out REALLY late and taking Thunder(my pony) for trail rides when we have a bright full moon.. and from on top of the hill in our wods the nights are magnificent.....

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

Oct. 18, 2001, 10:01 PM
I am so sorry for your loss

* Fiero *
"i like pleasure spiked with pain and music is my aeroplane"

Seven
Oct. 18, 2001, 11:02 PM
I'm very sorry for your loss.

=^+^=

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 18, 2001, 11:02 PM
ive put a tribute page with some pics on my website... just thought i'd let you guys know....

Seger's Tribute (http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/id14.html)

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

Caros Folks
Oct. 19, 2001, 12:47 AM
M-J,
Times like this are so very hard and I suck at knowing what to say in these moments. Somehow "Sorry" doesn't seem to be enough.

So, I have this poem that I got from a friend a long time ago during similar circumstances. It made me feel better and I every once and a while I find the need to share it with those who could use a little perspective...

I hope it will make you feel better too.


For A Little While

I'll lend you for a little while
my grandest foal, he said.
For you to love while she's alive,
and morn for when she's dead.

It may be one or twenty years,
or days or months, you see.
But, will you, till I take her back
take care of her for me?

She'll bring her charms to gladden you,
and should her stay be brief
you'll have treasured memories
as solace for your grief.

I cannot promise she will stay,
since all from earth return.
But, there are lessons taught on earth
I want this foal to learn.

I've looked the wide world over
in my search for teachers true.
And from the throngs that crowd life's lanes
with trust I have selected you.

Now will you give her your total love?
Nor think the labor vain,
nor hate me when I come
to take her back again?

I know you'll give her tenderness
and love will bloom each day.
And for the happiness you've known
forever-grateful stay.

But should I come and call for her
much sooner than you'd planned
you'll brave the bitter grief that comes
and someday you'll understand.

By unknown author

dogchushu
Oct. 19, 2001, 03:42 AM
I'm so sorry MJ. Hang in there. It will hurt for a while. But it will get better. And I'll bet you have lots of happy Seger memories.

Louise
Oct. 19, 2001, 04:27 AM
Hard to find the words to express my concern for you. Just know that we all care about you, and that, if you need to talk, I, and I am sure many others, will be willing to listen. My email is listed.

jsg24
Oct. 19, 2001, 04:28 AM
MJ, My thoughts are with you. I'm very sorry for your loss. I've been there and it's very, very hard.

marta
Oct. 19, 2001, 04:35 AM
i have been following your stories for a while and feel like i actually met your horses.
this is heartbreaking...

levremont
Oct. 19, 2001, 05:55 AM
I can say that I can relate very well, having had to lost three of my own in just two years, at least you know that Seger was loved until he had to leave you ... and you were there for him until the last and now he is playing and grazing in the fields among the stars with my Lacy, Addy and Cece. I will give all my horses a big hug for Seger tonight... don't think that tears will show weakness, have a good cry and give Thunder a big hug, Thunder will understand I find they always do! Take care M_J

jl
Oct. 19, 2001, 06:36 AM
to hear about your loss.
It's always devastating to lose a companion.
At least you know thatyou did the right thing by your horse at the end

Miniwelsh
Oct. 19, 2001, 07:36 AM
Living Love
>
> -Written by Martin Scot Kosins,
> Author of "Maya's First Rose"
>
>
> If you ever love an animal, there are three days in
> your life you will
> always
> remember...
>
> The first is a day, blessed with happiness, when you
> bring home your
> young
> new friend. You may have spent weeks deciding on a
> breed. You may have
> asked
> numerous opinions of many vets, or done long research
> in finding a
> breeder.
> Or, perhaps in a fleeting moment, you may have just
> chosen that
> silly looking mutt in a shelter--simple because
> something in its eyes
> reached
> your heart. But when you bring that chosen pet home,
> and watch it
> explore,
> and claim its special place in your hall or front
> room--and when you
> feel it
> brush against you for the first time--it instills a
> feeling of pure
> love you
> will carry with you through the many years to come.
>
> The second day will occur eight or nine or ten years
> later. It will be
> a day
> like any other. Routine and unexceptional. But, for a
> surprising
> instant, you
> will look at your longtime friend and see age where
> you once saw youth.
> You
> will see slow deliberate steps where you once saw
> energy. And you will
> see
> sleep where you once saw activity. So you will begin
> to adjust your
> friend's
> diet--and you may add a pill or two to her food. And
> you may feel a
> growing
> fear deep within yourself, which bodes of a coming
> emptiness. And you
> will
> feel this uneasy feeling, on and off, until the third
> day finally
> arrives.
>
> And on this day--if your friend and God have not
> decided for you, then
> you
> will be faced with making a decision of your own--on
> behalf of your
> lifelong
> friend, and with the guidance of your own deepest
> Spirit. But whichever
> way
> your friend eventually leaves you---you will feel as
> alone as a single
> star
> in the dark night.
>
> If you are wise, you will let the tears flow as freely
> and as often as
> they
> must. And if you are typical, you will find that not
> many in your
> circle of
> family or friends will be able to understand your
> grief, or comfort
> you.
>
> But if you are true to the love of the pet you
> cherished through the
> many
> joy-filled years, you may find that a soul--a bit
> smaller in size than
> your
> own---seems to walk with you, at times, during the
> lonely days to come.
>
> And at moments when you least expect anything our of
> the ordinary to
> happen,
> you may feel something brush against your leg--very
> very lightly.
>
> And looking down at the place where your dear, perhaps
> dearest, friend
> used
> to lay---you will remember those three significant
> days. The memory
> will most
> likely be painful, and leave an ache in your
> heart---As time passes the
> ache
> will come and go as it has a life of its own. You will
> both reject it
> and
> embrace it, and it may confuse you. If you reject it,
> it will depress
> you. If
> you embrace it, it will deepen you. Either way, it
> will still be an
> ache.
>
> But there will be, I assure you, a fourth day
> when---along with the
> memory of
> your pet---and piercing through the heaviness in your
> heart---there
> will come
> a realization that belongs only to you. It will be as
> unique and strong
> as
> our relationship with each animal we have loved, and
> lost. This
> realization
> takes the form of a Living Love---like the heavenly
> scent of a rose
> that
> remains after the petals have wilted, this Love will
> remain and
> grow--and be
> there for us to remember. It is a love we have earned.
> It is the legacy
> our
> pets leave us when they go. And it is a gift we may
> keep with us as
> long as
> we live. It is a Love which is ours alone. And until
> we ourselves
> leave,
> perhaps to join our Beloved Pets--it is a Love that we
> will always
> possess.
> Living Love
>
>
>
>
>

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

Hilary
Oct. 19, 2001, 07:42 AM
I'm so sorry - I lost 2 unexpectedly this summer and you have my heartfelt sympathies.

Can you share what happened to him?

suzy
Oct. 19, 2001, 07:44 AM
I only followed the thread sporadically on your horse and, being the eternal optimist, assumed that you would report his improvement and recovery. I'm so sad that your news is that you had to put Seger to sleep. I certainly don't have the right words to express how sorry I am for you and him, but it's clear from the other posts that you have a lot of support here and people who feel for you. I hope that helps you at least a little bit.

Natty Dread
Oct. 19, 2001, 07:55 AM
What a bummer:

I have never posted a response but have followed along this thread since the beginning. Believe me I know how hard it is to go thru a time like this. But, unfortunately, this is the reality and the responsibility that we have when owning animals. It is our duty to eventually make those most difficult of decisions when it is necessary.
The question I have is: He was only a 5 year old?!?! Wow, so young! What was wrong with him? Did your vet have any idea? I realize that his illness was not the immediate cause of his death but I have to wonder what was wrong. I realize it is difficult to talk about but I see you spend alot of time on these boards and was wondering when/if you are ready could you fill us in?

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 19, 2001, 08:08 AM
... your kind comments and posts are helping me through this...the poems are beautiful... thank you...

well, the vet took bloodwork on wensday night and the results were due back last night... the vet said that it was ulcers... the reason we had to put him down is b/c he had cast himself that night after the vet left.... seger always laid down, he was always doing it in the pastures as well.

well, when i went to do morning feedings i saw he was not standing when i turned on the light and went to wake him up, when i saw that he was in the corner i was instantly sick.... i knew thiw would not be a good day. we called someone from the next town that i knew could help, and the vet kept in touch until he was out of surgery on a few smaller animals....
when the vet arrived we chainsawed the stall wall and finally got enough room to let him try to push himself out into teh isle...seger was exhausted, but he never quit fighting.... he would try to get up, that would exhaust him so he would eat a few bites, take a long rest, then try again.... he did this all day...

after many many options to try to save him were solwly failing and seger was so exhausted he couldn't really help us help himself i decided it was time... he was lying in our isle way, and as the vet readied the injection i took his big soft head and told him i was so proud of him, that i would never forget him, i loved him, and that i was sorry...

even in his last breaths as the vet approached him to give the injections seger tried to lift his head, a finaly battle i guess against the unstoppable.... he looked into my eyes as he passed away... and i knew that he would be ok..

seger passed away sometime around one pm...

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

Brookes
Oct. 19, 2001, 09:38 AM
Oh MJ, I'm sooo sorry! What a darn shame to loose your beloved Seger. I know you did the right thing as hard as it may be. We are here to support you if you need us. Seger is in horsie heaven having a blast right now! All the oats he wants and he doesn't have to get his mane pulled ever! All my love sweetie, hang in there! Love your other mom! /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

Portia
Oct. 19, 2001, 09:59 AM
I'm so, so sorry, Musical Jumper. I can't add much to what the others have already said.

Duffy
Oct. 19, 2001, 10:04 AM
I'm SO sorry about Seger AND about what you've been going through. Hang in there, kiddo. Huge Cyber HUGS to you!!!

hobson
Oct. 19, 2001, 10:20 AM
Hobson, Rex and I send condolences.

Merry
Oct. 19, 2001, 10:27 AM
The whole group at El Ranchito sends their regards, too, MJ. If it's any consolation, I'm so glad you were there to say "Farewell for now" to Seger.

"Friends don't let friends eat fish tacos."

MGR
Oct. 19, 2001, 10:58 AM
I am so sorry for your loss. My heart goes out to you and I wish I could reach out and give you a BIG hug and a shoulder.

He is at peace and you are a very brave person for letting him go. He was very special and so are you.

Maria

rescuemom
Oct. 19, 2001, 11:14 AM
Musical Jumper, my sympathies and {{{hugs}}} on your loss. I hope you may take some comfort from the writings at the link, and below.

http://www.petloss.com/poems/poems.htm

"We who choose to surround ourselves with lives even more temporary than our own, live within a fragile circle, easily and often breached. Unable to accept its awful gaps, we still would live no other way. We cherish memory as the only certain immortality, never fully understanding the necessary plan."
Irving Townsend.

Lisamarie8
Oct. 19, 2001, 11:15 AM
I've been following your story with Segar and it's outcome is heartbreaking. As someone who is so in love with her horses I can only imagine what you're going through.

This is one of my favorite Poems, and while i've read it a million times, it always seems to strike a needed nerve (people/horses...a feeling of loss whaever the circumstance) It's healthy to mourn now, and cry, and realize your loss. Then, later you can be happy that you had such a special horse enter your life, even if he was only to leave it so swiftly.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
I never crossed your threshold with a grief
But that I went without it; never came
Heart hungry but you fed me, eased the blame,
and gave sorrow solace and relief

I never left you but I took away
The love that drew me to your side again
Through that wide door that never could remain
Quite closed between us for a little day

Oh! friend, who gave and comforted, who knew
so overwell the want of heart and mind,
Where may I turn for solace now, or find
Relief from this unceasing loss of you

Be it for fault, for folly, or for sin,
Oh! Terrible my penance, and most sore
To face the tragedy of that closed door
Whereby I pass by and may not enter in.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

--My most accommodating strength is my willingness to humiliate myself

Inverness
Oct. 19, 2001, 11:20 AM
My favorite solace:

"Though nothing can bring back the hour
Of spendour in the grass, of glory in the flower;
We will grieve not, rather find
Strength in what remains behind;
In the primal sympathy
Which having been must ever be;
In the soothing thoughts that spring
Out of human suffering;
In the faith that looks through death,
In years that bring the philosophic mind."

Ode. Intimations of Immortality
William Wordsworth, (1770-1850)

Wicky
Oct. 19, 2001, 11:32 AM
I have felt your pain, and I feel the echos again, but they do diminish and we are left with good memories.

My thoughts are with you.

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 19, 2001, 11:43 AM
all of your comforting messages are greatly appreciated..... tonight i beleive will be very hard.... but at least i will always be able to visit my dear friend, and no matter what he will always be home..... he will always be able to watch thunder and i canter around our paddocks liek he used to, and he'll always be able to watch over me when ive had a bad day....

the poems are beautiful everyone. thank you....

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

HSM
Oct. 19, 2001, 11:59 AM
I just read your story and it brought tears to my eyes. You poor dear. We had to put a horse down this summer after a sudden and traumatic illness so I know what it is like. My thoughts and prayers are with you.

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 19, 2001, 12:02 PM
ok, back injune on my birthday i was bought tickets to a Kenny Chesney concert.. ive waited for this all this time....but the concert is tomarrow and i dont feel right going out and having a good night out after having to bury my dear Seger.....

should i go ??? is it right ????? i mean, i know i cant grieve forever... but we will bury him tonight and then i will have to leave to stay at my aunt's house so i can get up early and run to town to get our hair done before the concert................ im just questioning if its right to go...........

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

UndeniedGirl
Oct. 19, 2001, 12:05 PM
Hanging around feeling bad about it wont bring him back --- go, try to have fun....

*Cass*
<~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~>

Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith...

Life is not a spectator sport!

Smile...it makes people wonder what you have been doing /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ErinB
Oct. 19, 2001, 12:05 PM
Of course! You more than deserve a fun night out. Would Seger rather you be sitting around sad or having a good time? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~*~
This signature is being rented by JumperEq.

Tin
Oct. 19, 2001, 12:08 PM
MJ> I'm so sorry for your lose, my thoughts are with you and Seger tonight. He knew you loved him and your lucky to spend his last moments together.

About the concert I think it's up to you if you feel like going or not. It would probably be a good thing to go and have fun, celebrate his life. He knows he was loved and you definatly wouldn't be letting him down or care any less if you went.

<It's all part of my ninja training /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif >

Luv2ride
Oct. 19, 2001, 12:20 PM
It sounds like it was for the best.

You have the right thought, he his in horesy heaven with all the other great horses.

Just know that I am thinking of you
~Nikki and Ethan~

*Whoever said money can't buy you happiness, never owned a horse /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[This message was edited by Louise on Oct. 19, 2001 at 05:40 PM.]

[This message was edited by Louise on Oct. 19, 2001 at 05:40 PM.]

Luv2ride
Oct. 19, 2001, 12:21 PM
So sorry, I posted the wrong smiley face. I didnt mean to have that one. I just wanted a regular smiley.

So sorry!!

~Nikki and Ethan~

*Whoever said money can't buy you happiness, never owned a horse : ) *

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 19, 2001, 12:37 PM
well, thank y'all for the comments.. i will probley go out tomarrow to the concert...... and i know ill smile (or cry) when he sings certain songs b/c i woudl often listen to Kenny when working with Seger......

You know... i remember there were days when id be like "oh, its so cold out..." and even though i would always go id complaign about having to go outside and feed or clean stalls b/c it was cold... and now its all i can do to stop myself from going out and lying with him in the barn isle.... i want to be with him, even if its just one last time..... i want to feel his soft coat, and belvet muzzle..... and i want to laugh at his very furry ears...... i will always have so many things that were Seger's such as his halter... but i would trade all of that for just one more chance to tell him i love him.....

Musical_Jumper

"Event riders leave no ring unrode, no jump over turned, and no ditch filled in."

"Your competition just got better today, did you..."

http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

muley
Oct. 19, 2001, 01:01 PM
I am so sorry to hear about the loss of your friend.
Not much more I can say. I have been there many times.
Crying is not a sign of weakness.
I am a very strong woman, and when I lose a friend, I cry and I don't care who in the world sees. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Cinnybren
Oct. 19, 2001, 01:52 PM
So Sorry M_J, you are in my thoughts. I too have followed the happenings with you and Seger on the BB. Murphy and I send lots of hugs your way.

Member of the Baby Greenie Support Group of North America

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 19, 2001, 02:31 PM
thanks

Musical_Jumper

"I'm sick of the tension, sick of the hunger
Sick of you acting like I owe you this
Find another place to feed your greed
While I find a place to rest"


http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

JRG
Oct. 19, 2001, 02:52 PM
Your beautiful Seger will forever roam green pastures.

I am deeply sorry for your loss. A broken heart is the easiest thing to see, but the the heardest to heal. We are all here for you.

Louise
Oct. 19, 2001, 03:43 PM
M_J - if you can, I think it would be a good idea to go to the concert. You need to get on with your life now, and it isn't as if you bought the tickets knowing that seger wouldn't be there to tell how wonderful Kenny Chesney was.

Kenny gives a great concert, from what I hear, go - enjoy!

To Remain Anonymous
Oct. 19, 2001, 03:49 PM
I am so sorry. I was reading all the posts waiting to find out just WHY he was put down. When I found the post you wrote about the actual day and moment you put him down I got tears in my eyes, even though I hadn't read the former threads following the whole story. I could NOT even imagine what it must feel like to lose someone so close... horses do so much for us, emotionally too. I wish you the best. Condolences.

Seven
Oct. 19, 2001, 04:06 PM
I definitely think you should attend the concert -- you'll have plenty of opportunities to greive over the next several weeks and taking some time to perhaps have a little fun won't change that inevitable circumstance.

And, btw, I noticed we have the SAME birthdate! Different years of course....but I knew there was a reason I liked you!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

=^+^=

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 19, 2001, 05:04 PM
i am going to attend the concert.... ill do it b/c i know seger would've loved to hear about it... and when i get home sunday i will sit by his grave and tell him... i know that those who are gone can hear us when we speak to them...

Serendipity>> lol... thats kewl

Musical_Jumper

"I'm sick of the tension, sick of the hunger
Sick of you acting like I owe you this
Find another place to feed your greed
While I find a place to rest"


http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

KLS
Oct. 19, 2001, 09:09 PM
M_J, i already emailed you privately, but just wanted to add to the poem and quote collection on here for you.

my grandfather is a vet, and possibly felt the most helpless of us all when i had to put my boy down. these words were in the sympathy card he sent... (i almsot had to skip a class after i opened it, i was crying so hard). i hope it's some comfort.
------
"in their short lives, our pets give us all they can...their friendship, unselfish love, and total loyalty. there comes a time when we must give back to them... their freedom, their peace, and their dignity." -- anonymous

Natalie
Oct. 19, 2001, 09:17 PM
Oh my oh my....I can't believe what I missed not checking with these boards for 2 days. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I'm SO INCREDIBLY SORRY M_J! I've never lost a horse, but I can sympahtize with some of your pain. It must be so hard for you. Just remind yourself that there WILL be other horses, and they're all special in their own way. Seger was your baby..but there will be others. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (and you still have your pony!!!)

"Throw your heart over the fence and your horse will follow."

JustJump
Oct. 20, 2001, 02:04 PM
Please fill us in about what led to Seger's weakness...nearly all cast horses would be able to right themselves once the physical obstacles preventing them from rising are removed...I can't escape the notion that you have once again left us a few details short of a full story. What did the bloodwork show? EPM? EIA? West Nile? Paralytic Rhino? I'm assuming that the horse's condition wasn't that acute previously, or you would have had the vet out sooner...Please let us know so we can understand the situation better.

HeyYouNags
Oct. 21, 2001, 08:20 AM
I'd like to know what the vet's diagnosis was.

Plus, perhaps MJ could share with us what she's learned from this tragedy? Maybe some recommendations to keep the same thing from happening to another horse?

FairWeather
Oct. 21, 2001, 03:51 PM
M-J...I'm very sorry you had to put your horse down, but I've been thinking about Segar all weekend. Why did a horse have to be euthanized because he was cast? This just seems a little too extreme for an exhausted horse. I'm sorry if this is out of line, I'm just entirely too confused here. Could you share the actual diagnosis that determined that he should be put down? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Always,
FairWeather
If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. - Jack Handy

http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/entrance.html

Natty Dread
Oct. 22, 2001, 07:40 AM
Its like watching a movie without an ending!!! I still can't get over the fact that he was only 5!!! Argh!! Fill us in please.

KellyS
Oct. 22, 2001, 10:33 AM
This whole situation has bothered me alot. I won't post my feelings on the subject, but I keep wondering if anyone else is feeling the same way. It now seems that with the tragic end to the story, that any other discussion is now taboo.

While the details may hurt to discuss, I think a clear explanation of the facts would really help some of us feel at peace about Seger's death. While the romantic ideas about Seger running around in horse heaven are nice, I think it is a shame that he is not running around down here on earth.

Please don't flame me for this...I too am having some horsey health issues and I oversensitive about the suffering of any horse.

dmj
Oct. 22, 2001, 10:49 AM
KAM you read my mind.

*Go Bruins*

Justbay
Oct. 22, 2001, 10:57 AM
Sorry to hear about your horse... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

FairWeather
Oct. 22, 2001, 11:39 AM
KAM...I'm right there also. This has disturbed me quite a lot. Something isnt "sitting right" with me...and while Its not my business, it still doesnt stop me from worrying about the horse. I AM sorry MJ lost her horse, but involving the board early-on then saying he was put down because he was too tired just makes me slightly (ok, NOT slightly) upset. I'm not trying to persecute, but I think the explanation is a bit 'out there'.
If all we get to mull over is what we have, I'll continue to pray that the horse didnt suffer and that he couldnt have been saved from whatever it was that make him be put down... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

PaulaM
Oct. 22, 2001, 11:48 AM
I am sorry to hear of the loss of Seger.

It is my experience with cast horses that the more time they are down in one position the more damage can be done. My mare was cast for almost an hour around 3 years ago and well, it was touch and go for a day or so due to the fact that they can colic so easily due to pressures put on the digestive system and their circulatory system while they are down. It all depends on the position they are stuck in.

My mare was basically stuck on her back up against the back of her stall. This occurred during the middle of the day and I was even working in the barn at the time, however, I was out in the field with the other barn staff tarping hay during a rain storm. None of the boarders knew how to get the mare unstuck and they called their trainer who lived around 20 minutes from the barn. They got her unstuck and my mare leaped to her feet and the trainer knew that my mare should be walked but none of her students volunteered to walk her but one of my trainers students did volunteer to walk her and kept her walking until I got back to the barn. They told me what had happened and I kept my mare walking for another 2 hours and than kept observing her for another 8 hours after that. I had never been so scared in my life.

Hilary
Oct. 22, 2001, 12:00 PM
I am in agreement with PaulaM - Seger could have had alot of things go wrong from being cast for several hours - he could have had fluid in his lungs (horses are not designed to lie down for extended periods, esp in awkward positions, colic issues, plain old exhaustion from his previous illness. Animals can die from exhaustion and shock.

Please also remember that this girl is in high school and not able to respond immediately (as are us old fogies at work taking minibreaks to check the board /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) so 5 consecutive posts saying More Info Please, each sounding more and more accusatory are not going to get a quicker answer.

I also wonder "exactly" what happened. But you know? I have had enough horse experience to know that there are situations that leave the rest of the world thinking "well if it was ME I would have done XYZ differently" but you know in your heart you did what you had to do in your situation at that moment and explaining it repeatedly 6 ways from Sunday won't satisfy everyone or change the outcome.

Her horse died through an unfortunate set of circumstances some or all of which may or may not have been preventable. Our nosiness isn't going to change that.

lilblackhorse
Oct. 22, 2001, 02:35 PM
This whole situation has been difficult for me to follow as well. As Paula mentions, noone knows for sure the exact circumstances, but reading MJ's post, they waited for help from out of town, and then waited for the vet, and then the horse pushed his way out later. In reading the cast horse thread, and having done it myself, it's just odd to me that the situation couldn't have been rectified earlier upon finding the horse down...it's just such a sad thing, but I just feel like something is missing...there is always a "why". Treatment is always an iffy thing, especially when you get differing opinions and comments-trust me, I've just been there, and I am in no way being critical-more inquisitve since the threads have led us to here...
However, that said, no amount of discussion will bring him back, and I am very sorry for MJ's loss-we have all been there. There is always opportunity however to learn from loss to save others.

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 22, 2001, 04:41 PM
ok, sorry to take so long.... but my mind has been a million places lately.....

i am waiting for a call from the vet right now to tell me what the whole tests showed. we had many done.....
i will fill u in soon as i know....

seger was positioned in his stall in what may not eb a traditional "cast" position. but he was in the corner of his stall with his legs under him funny when i found him in teh morning and had his head in the corner.... everytime he tried to get up he bashed his head quite hard into teh corner... there were no deep cuts.. but i know he had to have had a VERY bad headache and he could not get up in any way when he was in that position.... i figure he had been trying for a while b/c he was tired when i first found him... he then thrashed about and repositioned himself, but still could not get his legs under him correctly to get up....

i have learned alot from all of this.... first of all.... we are the luckiest people alive to have earned the respect and love of these wonderful animals.. and i will never again complain abouthaving to haul my butt outta a warm bed to feed, and i will always tell my boy i love him when i say goodnight....

but more importantly....... get big stalls... and always be prepared for something like this !!! please please please everyone have an emergency plan !!!!!!!!!!! if i had one i could've started and been ready alot faster!!! please be prepared....

well.... i will post again when the vet calls..............

Musical_Jumper

"I'm sick of the tension, sick of the hunger
Sick of you acting like I owe you this
Find another place to feed your greed
While I find a place to rest"


http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

Hattie
Oct. 23, 2001, 07:09 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Quinn
Oct. 23, 2001, 08:27 AM
If the truth were known, the messages of comfort would quickly change to disbelief and horror!

elizabeth
Oct. 23, 2001, 08:45 AM
I think some of us do not understand what is unacceptable or horrific . . . .

M_J, condolences on the loss of your horse.

Cactuskate
Oct. 23, 2001, 09:05 AM
I believed to have been better informed and am removing this previous post. Thank you.

"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"

[This message was edited by Cactuskate on Oct. 23, 2001 at 12:44 PM.]

suniday
Oct. 23, 2001, 09:44 AM
M_J - my condolences to you in this trying time. Seger is in a very special place and will be there for you.

I am sorry for the harsh words everyone has said. They are not in your situation. Yes, each of us might have done something different, but remember it's done and it was done in the only way it was intended to be done at the time.

Please remember that we can all look back on situations and think "What If?" You can do this to use as a learning tool for the future, which you already have done and will continue to do.
I know I do this with a lot of situations in my life.

Take care of yourself and your pony, who I am sure misses Seger, too.

InWhyCee
Oct. 23, 2001, 11:46 AM
I began writing this in response to a newer thread that CLOSED before I could finish typing... so, to those who say they know, do you know for a fact that there was anyone else "there" aside from MusicalJumper and the veterinarian? If so, perhaps you could tell everyone "the real story"? I can't be the only one who'd like to know, if only for peace of mind!

Personally, I am a newcomer to the MJ thread(s), so I am not as fully aware of the situation as others. All I can see is the tragedy of an ailing horse, being cared for by a well-meaning but unprepared owner who, whether she will admit it or not, direly needs attention. And, in the future, HANDS-ON help... which does not have to cost $$$, FYI! My family kept my first horse at home and did so on a shoestring, but we knew we could contact at least one of my 4-H advisors at any hour in an emergency. Yes, we'd wait forever for an equine practitioner, but our "cow vet" was great and could track down a specialist if it was needed.

MJ, I hope you don't think I am being overly critical. What happened to Seger is tragic and I hope that you will learn from the experience instead of playing the defensive card. I had to put my first horse down too, not long after he contracted cancer--chemo wasn't an option and an operation would have been far too risky and expensive (multiple opinions were given). I still regret that I hyperventilated and my non-horsey dad had to hold the leadrope for me. I'm almost certain my baby went out happy. I hope Seger finally did, too.

[This message was edited by InWhyCee on Oct. 23, 2001 at 02:42 PM.]

Erin
Oct. 23, 2001, 11:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by InWhyCee:
I began writing this in response to a newer thread that CLOSED before I could finish typing... so, to those who say they know, do you know for a fact that there was anyone else "there" aside from MusicalJumper and the veterinarian? If so, perhaps you could tell everyone "the real story"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Any such posts will be deleted. A "fact" consists of something proven in court or printed in a reputable source. I have no way of knowing if anything else is true, and will not allow it to be posted.

Rockford
Oct. 23, 2001, 12:28 PM
M_J is your pony doing ok?

-Megan-

Jo
Oct. 23, 2001, 12:37 PM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

InWhyCee
Oct. 23, 2001, 12:40 PM
ERIN... Sorry. I wholly agree no one should make accusations like those being made earlier today unless they were THERE. Protesting that they know "what happened" but refusing to give any proof in the matter (if they indeed have it) is just adding insult to injury.

Awful situation, awful story, awful thread.

Kcorseinop
Oct. 23, 2001, 12:48 PM
Before you guys accuse M_J of something that may have never happened, maybe you should give her a chance to tell the truth, if INFACT what she said was not the truth, which may not even be the case. I don't think it's fair that you jump to conclusions when she hasn't even been here to tell the story or to defend herself. I've heard three different stories in the past two days regarding what "really" happened. None of them were the same, and I won't believe any of them unless they come straight from her mouth. M_J is the only one who knows the WHOLE truth.

M_J - i'm really sorry to hear about Seger. Hugs to you /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Whatever did happen - i'm sure you must have been going through Hell.

Miniwelsh
Oct. 23, 2001, 12:52 PM
having been to MJ's website, I thought her horses looked to be in good health and of good weight. I know things change, but I can't imagine parents, even non-horse parents let a situation get as out of control as the rumors have stated, nor can I imagine a veterinarian seeing anything remotely like the rumors and not having charges brought.

I could be wrong, but I hate to jump to conclusions especially when it involves a minor.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

Canter
Oct. 23, 2001, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KAM:


While the details may hurt to discuss, I think a clear explanation of the facts would really help some of us feel at peace about Seger's death. While the romantic ideas about Seger running around in horse heaven are nice, I think it is a shame that he is not running around down here on earth.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree KAM. While I am loathe to flame M_J over this, I've got to say that if you are going to share a story like this with the public, then you owe the public the full story. Cast horses are not put down simply because they are tired.

M_J help us help you ...

Kcorseinop
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:06 PM
Maybe this thread should be closed until M_J has a chance to explain herself, to prevent more rumours from starting and more nasty comments?! Whatever did happen, i'm sure this is the last thing that M_J would want to come home and see.

KellyS
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:14 PM
The more I hear, the more I know that my "gut feeling"/"sixth sense" was right about this situation.

Why haven't we gotten the full story yet?

MJ decided to share this situation with the members on this board and all of us were worried about Seger.

A simple explanation would put to rest these so-called "nasty comments"? I feel like things are definitely being covered up.

I have been very upset over this situation and feel as if the entire board has been misled.

"Truth is a greater virtue than love"

Kcorseinop
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:17 PM
She hasn't been on AIM either, so I don't think she's been around. And I think at this point, no matter what she says, she'll get flamed. I'd be afriad to come back, too, if I were her.

Seven
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:20 PM
And Kcorseinop, there is no reason to close this thread. M_J has had ample opportunity to provide an explanation to those she sought to involved in this mess. Erin has a set the parameters on the types of posts that will be permitted and so long as those guidelines are followed, there is nothing to be gained by closing this thread.

=^+^=

Seven
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kcorseinop:
She hasn't been on AIM either, so I don't think she's been around. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps she hasn't been around becuase it 2:20 in the afternoon in Indiana. M_J is probably still in school at this time and can either respond or not respond to these posts when she gets home.

=^+^=

Miniwelsh
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:25 PM
I think she is in school - as stated by a previous poster she is only 16 and not able to be on the computer at work like some of us /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Personally, until proven otherwise, I am going to go on the hope that if the vet had seen anything amiss, he would have reported it. None of us are going to bring Seger back, regardless of the circumstances surrounding this. KAM, I completely understand how you feel - the thought of Seger cast in the stall repeatedly banging his head was enough to turn my stomach, but again, I can't bring him back. I don't think MJ rehashing the details of what did or did not happen will change anything. I believe the people on this COTH board are educated enough to make decisions about their own horse's care without the true, false or embellished details of Seger's death. if nothing else, I do believe MJ loved her horse and it makes me sad to think of anyone having to lose something they care about whether it is a result of theur own lack of education or not. An adult in the situation should have stepped in long ago if there was something wrong.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

KellyS
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:26 PM
"I will not get involved in this thread, I will not get involved in this thread"....

Oh well, too late!

I remember when I first joined the BB that there was certain poster that presented false pictures of themself and their horse...while it did create a stir, this poster apologized and the entire BB community wholeheartedly received her back.

I think if MJ presented the entire, truthful story the BBer's would be very understanding and forgiving. Trust is a big part of this board because many of us do not know the others. While there is fun with alter egos and so forth, each poster is trusted to be telling the truth. People get upset when this trust is broken.

Erin
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:27 PM
Thanks, folks, for being thoughtful and level-headed.

Kcorseinop
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:

Perhaps she hasn't been around becuase it 2:20 in the afternoon in Indiana. M_J is probably still in school at this time and can either respond or not respond to these posts when she gets home.

=^+^=<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I've only seen her on for about 10 minutes in the past two days.
Honestly, i'm sure she feels bad enough, why must everyone jump down her throat about it? She's 16, her parents don't know much about horses, she doesn't have a trainer and we ALL make mistakes. This may have been hers and i'm sure she has learned her lesson and doesn't need everyone else telling her what she did wrong.

Duffy
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:31 PM
Well said, Miniwelsh.

This whole situation has been making me sick to my stomach, for poor Seger, and yes, for MJ. It is too late for Seger to get any help. I know that he is in a better place now. Hopefully MJ is getting the help she needs. No matter what is true or false, I believe she'll need it, if only to get through this.

Quinn
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:31 PM
Unfortunately, we all have a bit of a "henchman" in us. At least, I do.

I personally do not care to know any more details. Suffice it to say, I am on to other subjects of far more interest.

Jo
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I remember when I first joined the BB that there was certain poster that presented false pictures of themself and their horse...while it did create a stir, this poster apologized and the entire BB community wholeheartedly received her back <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps I'm just a hard a$$, but I think that posting false pictures and this alleged situation are two completely different things. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

suzy
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:39 PM
I would like to suggest that everyone on this thread who has expressed such concern for MJ's horse, PROVE their concern by going to the "Refugee Horses in Pakistan and Afghanistan" thread, click on the links, and make a donation to one of these two organizations. There is nothing more any of us can do for Seger. The real horse lovers will put their money and energy where their mouths are and donate time, money, or both to the organizations that Erin posted. There is nothing to be gained by speculating on what happened with Seger but much to be gained and to feel good about by helping those horses that are working so hard to save their owners' lives.

gwen
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:41 PM
GREAT IDEA!!!! I think I will do that right now! There is nothing we can do about Seger...so why not help some more poor animals that need our help!!

Barb

ClipClop
Oct. 23, 2001, 01:46 PM
You guys, MJ doesn't OWE you all anything. Imagine how hard it must be for her to get on this BB, and read people's posts accusing her of not telling the whole story/lying about her horses death! I would be hurt to pieces! Please try to remember that MJ must be going through a very difficult time in her life, and she might be avoiding this thread altogether, which I think may be smart.

I know you guys are not rubing it in her face, but with all her emotions out of whack right now, that might be what it seems like. So be careful guys, okay? Remember that this board is open for everyone to read, it's not a private conversation. I just don't want anyone's feelings to get hurt.

Thanks Guys /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

FairWeather
Oct. 23, 2001, 02:10 PM
I take it as my PERSONAL responsiblity to make sure horses are well taken care of...whether they are mine or not.
And thats all I'll say.

Always,
FairWeather
If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. - Jack Handy

http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/entrance.html

Heidi
Oct. 23, 2001, 02:14 PM
There is assembled on this BB an extraordinary group of knowledgeable, compassionate and trusting people. We are very much a community of kindred souls who can discuss, share, bicker, commiserate; and as annonymous as most of us are, we will also very often go out of our way to help fellow BB'ers in need. I'd hate to see that good will undermined.

The only conclusion I can draw is that those who need help should honestly seek it.

Canter
Oct. 23, 2001, 02:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ClipClop:
You guys, MJ doesn't _OWE_ you all anything. Imagine how hard it must be for her to get on this BB, and read people's posts accusing her of not telling the whole story/lying about her horses death!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not trying to flame you in any way shape or form Clip Clop /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but IMHO, once her story was made public it became the public's story and therefore we have every right to ask for clarification - or more news.

The overriding question should be but do we have a right to judge?

Seven
Oct. 23, 2001, 02:21 PM
Suzy,

While I am also concerned about the horses in Afghanistan/Pakistan, many BBer's (myself included) are already active *here* in the US with horse rescue an in my circumstance, OTTB rescue. To suggest that our concern is misplaced simply because we are still worried about a horse whose life has ended seems unfair - particularly in this case, since all it seems we want, collectively, is some honest answers.

Making a donation to another worthy cause isn't going to change my concern for this particular situation. I would hope that you would not beleive that pledging money is the simple answer to misfortunate horses? Knowledge, education, ownership, and responsibility should be the key elements of horsemanship, not just donating money. Whatever methods persons choose to achieve those goals (even, by perhaps, seeking answers on a BB), should be respected.

=^+^=

Small Change
Oct. 23, 2001, 02:25 PM
By being at school, I think I missed the allegations... But my 2 cents is that the best way for MJ to gain face is to come completely clean. There are a lot of very forgiving people here... But I don't think any of them want to be left in the dark. I mean we are all here because of horses right? I think then that it is self explanitory as to why people are concerned... If MJ stays away, there is always going to be some doubt as to what actually happened, but if someone can actually tell the truth, or verify what has been said...

A horse, a horse, of course, of course, unless he's worth a million and five.

suzy
Oct. 23, 2001, 02:27 PM
All I am suggesting is that people do something that CAN make a difference. "Beating up" on MJ (whatever the real circumstances may be) has absolutely no value. Donating to a cause in which living but suffering horses are being helped has a great deal of value.

Very simply, I prefer to be part of the solution rather than part of the problem. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

P.S. In the case of Pakistan/Afghanistan, money IS the solution. These people are destitute and no amount of horse care knowledge is going to benefit these people if they don't also have feed, water, and medical supplies for their animals. In this very specific instance, money is key.

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 23, 2001, 02:50 PM
well...... i am gone for a while and i come hoem to find this............ first off... i dont care what cetrain peopel say that beleive cetrain things..... i dunno WHAT they heard or beleive... but everyone is entitled to thier opinions, thoughts, and everyone has a right to post thier thoughts on any subject on this board.... so i am not angry with anyone who "flamed" me....but i am curious as to what you hve hear that made you beleive i am lying about my seger's death !!!!! were any of you here ??? do you even know me?!?!?!?! i have pnly been flamed by those people on this thread who i have have no idea who they are !!!! i do not know who or what you have been told or heard..... but personally i would like to know.... my email is iwanna_dreamguy@hotmail.com

well, the vet called last night but i was not here to get the call...... i will tell you what i have heard from my mother who talked to the dr. he is supposed to be mailing me the actual results.... but for now this is what i know..... mother told me that the dr said that the tests all came in and showed conflicting reports..... i dont know what she emant by this.. hopefully the vet will clear it up when he mails me the papers.... she also said that his levels of red and/or white blood cells were unbalanced.. again... i dunno what thta means compared to evrything else... but this is what i was told this morning.......

i must hav emissed some thread or some posts.. b/c i am totally clueless as to what has been going on... people are saying they were "better informed" or "told what really happened"........... but i woudl like to know how b/c i have not seen anything, and i do not know of anyone besides those who live in THIS house who know what happened...... nobody outside of my family was here the entire time he was sick, and they are the only ones who should know what the "thruth" is............

and what is this about the possibilty of me being a fake poster...... well, i am not THAT immature as to post false pictures, posts, and opinions about who and what i am......... anyone who would do that is just pathetic.. i have not and never will do that !!!!!!!!!

i obviously have missed alot..... but lately i have been trying to move on and spend time living my life and enjoying my pony..... right now he is acting wierd b/c he is alone. and im helping him sorta get over it in any way that i could help as only a human..... i do not have access to this 24/7 so obviously i miss alot that i should probly know about.........

Musical_Jumper

"I'm sick of the tension, sick of the hunger
Sick of you acting like I owe you this
Find another place to feed your greed
While I find a place to rest"


http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

JRG
Oct. 23, 2001, 03:38 PM
Looking back, hasn't this horse been loosing weight since Sept. 23?

Brookes
Oct. 23, 2001, 03:57 PM
I am very sad to see this thread deteriorate the way it has. I have not seen any proof provided by anyone that MJ is in anyway responsible for this situation. It has all been inuendo so far.

I think that at this point; unless someone has something definitive to post, I will not assume the worst of MJ. She has kept us posted on Seger's conditions, to the best of her knowledge. She has come to us for advice time and again for Seger. We all knew that Seger had health issues that she was very concerned over.

I believe that to jump to conclusions is very harmful. Since I neither know MJ personally nor her detractors I have no way to determine the truth other than by giving MJ the benfit of the doubt. Therefore unless proof positive is provided I think that MJ is owed more than quite a few apologies.

Lions and Tigers and Bears, oh my!!

Rockford
Oct. 23, 2001, 04:00 PM
(Edited cause we know what REALLY happened now)

[This message was edited by Looney Tunes (formerly Rockford) on Oct. 24, 2001 at 07:37 PM.]

Musical_Jumper
Oct. 23, 2001, 04:21 PM
LT>>> when seger was put down the tests had not came back.... the vet told me that he beleived that seger was afflicted with ulcers.... so while the vet did not and was not able to say for sure that the horse had ulcers... he had told me the night before that he strongly was leaning torward ulcers....

seger was given a chanec to drink, and he still had good gum color up to teh end..... he was given any hay he wanted to grasp and eat in an attempt to boost his energy..... i beleive that seger was exhausted b/c he was probley fighting all night, and that was stressful on him... but i cannot say for sure.....

ALSO>>>>>>>>>>>> just to clear something up.... pertaining to the fact that i could not afford the expensive care he may have needed ........ i was willing to give him to the vet or someone who could afford the care he woudl need to survive........ the vet gave me this option.... i said yes in teh best interest of the horse..... im sure that some people think that i was stubborn and not willing to get any help for him.... i was...... i was willing to give up ownership to save his life......

Musical_Jumper

"I'm sick of the tension, sick of the hunger
Sick of you acting like I owe you this
Find another place to feed your greed
While I find a place to rest"


http://accopmanyme.tripod.com/tiffanyswebwonderland/ ~~ Come check out my site!!

LAZ
Oct. 23, 2001, 07:02 PM
but whatever posseses people to be so mean, small-minded, vindictive and judgemental as some of the posts on this thread make them out to be? What possible good can come out of being so hateful to a young girl who's just lost her horse? How can you possiblly think such comments could help ANYTHING? To those of you that have written these things: think back on what it is like to be 16. Think back on how YOU felt at 16. Now think back on how it would have felt to have to put your horse down. Now think how it would be to be attacked about it and have it implied that you had done something underhanded and evil! Jesus! Not a one of you was there--not a one of you has any idea what happened. Do all of you who attacked this child look in on your horses every hour of every day? Have you never found them hours after a problem? I have! I had a horse fall down on ice when I was about her age--I have no idea how long he'd been down, but he was nearly dead from the exhaustion of trying to get up. It was touch and go and required many dollars of vet care to save him--that particular owner had the money and could pay it; many people can not. I can tell you that Cloverdale is not exactly the high dollar capital of the midwest--many people there can not afford $1000's of dollars in vet bills. AND M_J is correct, there is a dirth of good equine vets in that area.

You can't watch your horses every minute of every day and live the rest of your life. Let those of you that are perfect stand forth and I'll salute you. Otherwise don't kick someone who is already down! Shame on you.

ProzacPuppy
Oct. 23, 2001, 07:44 PM
I haven't been on the BB for a while and am not "in the know" about all the allegations. I do know that my 16 year old would be devastated by the loss of her horse and I assume MJ is very upset by all this.

But- I think that her parents must have been insane to think that a 16 year old can handle the expenses of a horse singlehandedly and it is way too much to expect a child to shoulder all the responsibility for an ailing pet, regardless of the diagnosis. I think adult intervention earlier on would have only helped matters.

Lastly, as one who has dealt with equine ulcers, it is not that big a deal when diagnosed and treated promptly. It will put a performance horse off his game and make him lose condition, but unless there is some other ailment - recovery can be quick and total. Been there, done that- very recently.

So, my condolences to MJ and Seger's pony companion as they both come to terms with their loss.

Evalee Hunter
Oct. 23, 2001, 08:02 PM
I have feelings that agree with almost all the postings--feelings that it doesn't seem possible the way it has been explained & feelings that we should all be sympathetic & supportive because it is negative to be otherwise & I think emphasis on the positive is essential.

At the same time, I know it is possible for a horse to go down, absolutely without reasonable explanation, and eventually be euthanized, without anyone being able to explain why. A friend of my daughter had a relatively young (maybe 8 or 9) TB go down in the field. She nursed him where he was (with vet help) for about 24 hours. Then the local volunteer fire co. came & tried to move him into the barn for further nursing under more convenient circumstances. However, the horse's vital signs were so unstable with every attempt to move him that he was euthanized there. This was a horse with no known medical problems.

So it can happen & yes it can happen to you! We all want an explanation, because it is human to look for one, & also because we feel that if we know "why" we can avoid the problem in our horses. But sometimes there isn't any explanation.

Now, I do have a suggestion for M_J & this is something I feel strongly about. Each & every one of us needs a support group--it is nice to have a support group of friends on the internet, but that is not enough--we need a support group of people who live physically near us. Adults need such supportive friends, and young people & teenagers need them even more. M_J, somehow, you need to find people who you can turn to.

I know you once belonged to Pony Club & have made negative comments about your experience there. I could say plenty of bad things about PC after about 10 years of my daughter being in it. But I can also say good things--and support group is one of those good things. People with horse trailers--even if you have your own trailer, you need to know others with trailers in case, in an emergency, you go to hook yours up & find something major wrong like no brakes or no lights. People with knowledge, who can come & help you assess how serious a situation with your horse is. People who may have medications readily available & know how to administer the medications--for example, Banamine. People with blankets they can bring to your horse RIGHT NOW, if the horse is sick & needs to be blanketed. You might rejoin PC for the reason of learning, and forming friendships, rather than the reasons of uprating or competing at rallies or whatever.

If you absolutely cannot stand the thought of being in PC again, even a different PC than the 1st time, then you need to look for other sources of support--possibly 4-H, possibly your local CTA (combined training association), possibly your state horse council, possibly your local horse show association or professional horseman's association. You need to find other horse people & get to know them. You need to volunteer your help & knowledge to them & learn from them in turn.

I feel very, very strongly about this--that you need to get off the internet & get out there in the real world & find a support system. If you can't find one already in place, build one: put up ads at your local tack store or feed store or even your vet's office. Say you want to start a club for horse people & then do it!

Natty Dread
Oct. 23, 2001, 08:30 PM
Oh god, I am sooo sorry...I never meant this to lead to all of this. While I agree with practically everything posted I have to say that it just really bothered me. I still cannot get over the fact that he was only 5. Okay, its over, the end, caput, but once you post it on a bulletin board for all to see it becomes public. We have been dragged along from the start and for it to end this way just seems, oh I dunno...off somehow. I don't think, even as the addict I am for this BB, I could bring a subject up such as this. Things happen with horses all the time..we are all well aware of this. The thing I have a problem with most is leaving a child with all this responsibility alone. I could never make a conciensious decision on my own at that tender of an age. Pity the child who does. It just seemed as though she had been posting so often. She was on a ton of threads. And I just felt like I/we were left hanging. While I don't readily, as a lifelong horse owner, except her reasons/answers if that is all we get then that is all we get. I am not so certain I will become involved again however.

ponygrl
Oct. 23, 2001, 09:46 PM
TXJumper said:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But- I think that her parents must have been insane to think that a 16 year old can handle the expenses of a horse singlehandedly and it is way too much to expect a child to shoulder all the responsibility for an ailing pet, regardless of the diagnosis. I think adult intervention earlier on would have only helped matters. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I disagree. My parents supported my riding from 4-16 and my mom rode as a child and when I was little. When I was 15 we retired my older horse and my pony (leased out horse, brought pony home to trail ride) and I got a job a week after my 16 B-Day. I leased a mare that fall (August- late October) and was working enough to pay her expenses and save money for half of a new horse. I took her to two horse trials (that I paid for) and then returned her - with $750 in the bank and knowing I had a grandfather who would lend me what I needed (I repaid) went horse shopping. I found a 3y/o TB in november 99 and for $1750 bought him, I borrowed $2000 from my grandfather and set up monthly payments until May 2001, when I graduated from HS. So I was 16years and 3 months old - I was an AP student at the public high school with a 3y/o OTTB. I worked enough to pay my $215/month board, my $125/month loan repayments to my grandfather, $160/month for lessons and $75 every 6 weeks for shoes, and still had enough to save up for gas/vet bills (just routine, I was lucky), etc. It can be done. I was well guided and chose to pay a ridiculous amount for board rather than keep Figgy in my backyard (free) because I didn't have an arena. Kids are capable and can support their own equine habits. I got the feeling from MJ that she was finding jobs related to horses. But you cannot afford to support a horse working with them! Look elsewhere! I got a job at a cafe - there are more hours available and better wages.

*sorry, I just hate it when people make it sound like its so hard to support a horse, sure I was stressed, but because I really wanted to do it I could.

Laura

In The Gate
Oct. 23, 2001, 10:03 PM
Well, Laura, it depends on where you live. I'm 17, I did work for a while but I don't any more, and there is no way I could have supported my horse on my own. Here in Los Angeles, it costs $500 a month for board alone- and more than that per month for training. That's not even for full care (which I don't do).

Then you have vet bils, farrier bills, which, routine for my mare is $150 every five weeks for shoes (her hooves grow quickly) and about $100 every other month for a hormone supplement from the vet.

Then we get into my horse's very expensive habit of eating her blankets, sheets and leg wraps.

It adds up. I thank god I have parents who support me despite their dislike for horses.

My dad keeps saying "Tennis, Tennis" every time I need anything else for my horse.

I pay what I can, they pay the rest. I bought the horse with my money, but because of the area I am in, they have to pay her monthly fee's- there's no way I could support her and go to school at the same time.

So, for some people it is impossible.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

Caros Folks
Oct. 23, 2001, 11:08 PM
Have you ever been to a horse auction? I'm not talking Sippin' Mint Juleps while the $150,000 Yearlings are paraded by for all to see-I'm talking the last stop before the 'Knackers' (in fact, most of the Knackers are usually there bidding $.85/lb). Well, if you have and you love horses-it's horrifying. I don't think I could ever go back to one unless I was BUTT RICH and could buy ALL of them.

My Point here is that there are MANY folks who feel that horses ARE disposable and when they feel they're no longer useful-they just "toss 'em out". Most of the people on this BB would NEVER do such a thing and have a completely different mentality regarding preserving the health and relationships with our Equine buddies.

I would like to submit that EVERYONE posting on this thread would never 'give up' on their horses and would ALWAYS try to do what was best.

So, it seems to me that some of the very same folks who can demonstrate this incredible amount of care and compassion for their horses, somehow turn in to a Dr. Jykll/Mr. Hyde when they have posted on this thread.

It's been said already, but I have to agree-it's not right to say ONE NEGATIVE WORD or QUESTION M-J's Intentions, Thought Process or Decision. regardless of whether it was made public on this BB. In any case what does it really matter what the illness was? I know people are curious-Jeez that's why the 'Enquirer' is the most read Newspaper in America-but none of that stuff really matters does it?

I don't know MJ at all, but it sure seems like she cared very much for that horse and wanted what was best for it. We all may disagree on what "The Best" is, but it wasn't our horse, it was hers.

Furthermore, I don't think there are too many Vets who casually break out the Euthanasia Drugs and recommend that they be used without VERY CAREFUL consideration.

Yes, part of what Vets do is help our Buddies pass on when it's time, BUT-that is usually after all other measures have been taken. Most Vets I know would just LOVE to run every test under the sun, try all kinds of therapies and drugs and basically throw me into Bankruptcy (which of course I would agree to), to do whatever was necessary to make things better.

Again, I don't know the Vet, but I'm gonna bet that he is like most of the rest of them who is gonna try to 'fix it first'.

I don't want to offend anyone who has posted here. If I have, I apologize in advance. I just think it's time to let the whole subject go and let MJ try and get on with her life.

JustJump
Oct. 24, 2001, 05:05 AM
to their own devices w/no expert to turn to who is on the scene...From what I gather, the parents here were not knowedgeable, or forceful, or perhaps even interested enough to make a difference. I don't know why other adults assumed that everything would be fine without outside assistance and advice. It is far too difficult to "read" a situation via cyberspace to make judgements, but from MJ's comments, its pretty clear that she has great difficulty relating to those around her--family, kids at school, etc--the child is a community of one, it seems, save for the small (and might I add rather sadly desperate at times) interactions she has had till now on this BB. For some reason, she didn't recognize or admit that one person can not always go it alone. I do not think it is constructive at all to hold her to some huge standard of responsibility over this matter--it is far from clear how much understanding she has for what happened and the reasons for it. I might add that since apparently no one bothered to check on the situation until the end, that it is far from clear, and maybe will never be clear to anyone. Flaming MJ long-distance will not change what happened and may only serve to precipitate further crisis in a situation that does not seem to me to be very stable...I urge all to consider very carefully anything that is said--one life has already been lost; further recriminations are liable to cause more damage and do not serve any good purpose at this point. I hope that whatever "private" initiatives are underway are successful, and that MJ will be helped to develop the skills she needs to cope with life.

PMJ
Oct. 24, 2001, 05:07 AM
I have to agree. Those of you who have been so harsh to MJ have to consider that she had the vet's input, and he is a professional who was there before making the decision to put Seger down. I would venture a guess that there was more than exaustion involved.

Some people, not here, have critisized me for putting down my 17 year old gelding who--and who knows how he did this--stepped on a nail and eventually needed surgery to survive. For me it was not worth the pain, it was not cost effective--yes that did factor in--and it was not realistic because he was nuts even under tranquilizers when confined to a stall. Most people don't know about his stall behavior because he behaved at shows. I caught so much grief about insinuated theories as to why I put him down--mostly regarding the cost. While these people did not know the story, their comments hurt greatly and did nothing of value. I do not think MJ was soliciting support as much as she was letting the BB know the outcome. It must be a long fall from that high horse if you don't know the facts.

There are actually 3 sides to every story. The two peoples perception and the truth. If you were not there, don't judge. Personally, I would find it offensive to be offered "forgiveness" from people who only knew part of the story.

PMJ
Oct. 24, 2001, 06:32 AM
Granted, the horse needed attention, but if he was not in a life threatning (immediate) situation, I do not find it surprising that he did not come out for a few days. He came out to run tests from what I understand and making an appointment with a busy vet takes time. I find it hard to believe a vet would reccomend putting a horse down when not needed considering the fact that not only his reputation would be on the line, and the fact that he would be guilty of malpractice. I have heard of too many "emergencies" which should have been looked at earlier before the horse got to a certain situation or that were basically routine.

I don't know what happened, but I don't think insinuating should be the way to go. I think the people who have posted that they have questions are legit., but those who have put critisism on the board for others to read (and granted they cannot post the "facts"--again something that only tests and the vet can validify) when they could not elaborate should have let it go. It is too easy to put blame on people without concrete evidence.

As to ASPCA/Humane Society, while I am basing this on my experience only, I am really less than thrilled with them. They tend to talk a good game, but drop the ball. A leased horse of mine died in agony when the vet was not call, and I was not notified and she did not receive proper care. The facts beared out that she initially had an impaction but ruptured--the vets believe that her rolling because she was not attended caused a twist adding to her pain. While I had affidavits stating the lack of care and that the vet was only called once at the start, both organization told me that unless the horse was starved or did not have water, it was not neglect. This is not the case. In this state, we have a statute that provides for the prosecution of individuals who deny proper care that causes the suffering of the animal. I've read it, and they just didn't want to get involved.

JustJump
Oct. 24, 2001, 06:43 AM
The vet's judgement as to whether or not he should have come earlier or not is mute--we don't know how early on he was called; MJ did receive advice to call a vet asap on several threads awhile back; we don't know whether she even had a regular vet or how much attention a vet would pay to a call from a kid if he didn't know the girl already. To repeat what has already been said is not constructive, and to speculate about the situation is not constructive--but continued recriminations may indeed prove to be very destructive, and I'm sure no one wants further damage to be caused. We may never know the outcome of this situation, and that is for sure the only thing that we know for certain at this point.

Eglinton
Oct. 24, 2001, 07:01 AM
This whole story sounds really weird to me! The vet put down the horse, but no one seems to know what was wrong with it? Sorry to everyone who feels we should not be passing judgement, but posting this kind of story on a BB full of horse lovers is asking for judgement! This story does not add up. I'm not telling anyone else what to do, but I personally would not be keeping my horses at home if I didn't have the support/money/knowledge to do so. I have learned how to get a horse up from just about any crazy spot they get stuck in. I have also learned that a horse losing weight for no apparant reason is cause for concern. Ulcers can be diagnosed and treated. Don't expect to tell me a story like that and not get a response.

suzy
Oct. 24, 2001, 07:18 AM
Thanks for having the guts to say what I was thinking. It's interesting if you look back through the posts and read Musical Jumper's posts. In spite of the terrible thrashing she has taken here, she has chosen to take the high road and state the facts (as she knows them from her vet) without retaliating against anyone. Good for you, MJ.

lauriep
Oct. 24, 2001, 07:59 AM
what made the jump from exhausted, cast horse to euthanization? Did he have other injuries, was there something else going on?

My understanding was that they had determined a course of action for the loss of weight and bad condition, pending test results. The next morning, MJ came out and found him cast and in distress. But what made the vet decide that putting him down was the only solution? Just trying to understand the logic, not criticizing MJ other than her statements just haven't answered that question.

Laurie

FairWeather
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:00 AM
Is no good if you dont call in time.
If you have a sick horse, you do ANYTHING to get it to the vet. Sell your show clothes, sell your computer, sell your saddle, call a rescue. You dont sit around and WAIT for a vet to come to you.

I'm simply responding to the facts that were presented by M-J, nothing else.

If the horse were in such Bad condition that it needed to be put down, and it was known that it was in a bad condition for at LEAST 10 days, well...thats neglect to me. For anybody to defend someone because "they didnt know" is inexcusable. For someone to simply say "she learned her lesson" is inexcusable! If "Learning lessons" involves neglecting to call a vet to the point that the horse is put down...well, thats just plain sick.

Point Blank, The only information that I am referring to is the fact that a VET NEVER SAW THE HORSE until it was too late! I dont care if the local yokel hog vet came down the lane to look at poor segar. SOMEONE should have...Excuses do not make a horse healthy. Excuses do NOT save a life.

If you dont have the ability to haul a horse to a hospital, or at LEAST a plan of action to BORROW one, you have absolutely NO business owning a horse. If that makes me judgemental I'll take the beating...But once you put that halter on "YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOREVER!!!!!"

Always,
FairWeather
If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. - Jack Handy

http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/entrance.html

Jo
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:17 AM
FW, great post, I agree. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Natty Dread
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:22 AM
I couldn't agree more!

You make an appointment to get a mare preg checked, to castrate, to pre-purchase a horse, to do normal maintenance....blah, blah, blah.

You do not make an appointment when a horse is obviously ill ie: weight loss, diarrhea, general maylays.

Any vet, i mean anybody should be called when it is so apparent that the horse is ill.

I can't not swallow the fact that the vet came out pulled blood took a wait and see approach and then bada-bing the put the horse down.

Not to beat a dead horse (oops no pun intended) I know this is all moot now...but why put this on a public bulletin board? It is a tough crowd full of a load of extremely compassionate and knowledgable people. I can almost envision some piling in their cars to go to Indiana to help. I know now that if I posted a "what do you think" question I would get a ton of valid responses. Many of which I am certain I could really use. I just can not get over that this whole thing led to a five year old thoroughbred off the track to get euthanized for becoming cast. I have got to let this go.

PaulaM
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:23 AM
Excellent post Fairweather. You hit the nail right on the head.

Touche'
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:27 AM
OK folks, let me start by saying that I get no satisfaction out of this post. I have been trying to avoid it completely, but now it seems that the vet's expertise is coming into question and I absolutely will not allow that.

Mj was my daughter's closest friend. We took MJ with us to many, many horse functions including shows, expos, PC, Rolex, Equitana ect.. She really loves the horses and reads a ton of info on them. The vet knows her from PC. He was there at the knowdown when MJ won first place in her division! Her proven knowledge made us feel that she knew how to give basic care to her horses.

I am the one who arranged for MJ to get Seger. I thought this would be a terrific opportunity for MJ to achieve her dreams of eventing. I was so excited for her. Now I feel guilt.

Last Thursday morning the vet called me and explained that Seger was cast. He said that he was over an hour away and asked if I could go over there and try to help. He said that he was going to ask MJ if he could take Seger home with him with no strings attatched. He tried to prepare me for what I was about to see.

When I arrived at MJ's, Seger was no longer cast yet he could not get up. I am not a vet, so I can only tell you what I observed...and that is that Seger was the most emaciated thing I have ever seen. I won't go into detail other than to say that I have seen two similar horses at a kill sale once, but at least they had the strength to stand.I gave Seger 10 cc of Banamine per Dr.s orders. I was in touch with the Vet via MJ's cell phone. I told the Dr. that I felt that Seger was too weak to even get up on his sternum. I also relayed to MJ the Dr.s request to take Seger without strings attatched and MJ agreed.

After the vet arrived, we tried for several hours using various methods to try to get Seger up. The vet truly felt that if he could just get Seger up, he would be able to save him. The vet was trying extra hard as he was Seger's vet before Seger was given to MJ. The vet did not want Seger's breeder to hear how her gift to a girl came to an end.

My observation is that a vet should have been called long before the horse got in the condition that he did. I live about 20 minutes from MJ's house and I can think of three vets besides the one she publicly bad mouthed by name, that makes farm calls to this area. I last saw the horse in August when the pictures on her website of MJ in a dress were taken(we had just returned from watching the TPH Grand Prix). MJ had recently moved her horses to her house so there was lush pasture at the time.

When Seger was given the injection, I angrily said to MJ that I wanted two things from her. One was to stay off of the COTH BB, and the other was to get some counseling. I do not like that her posts seemed to be geared towards getting sympathy from everyone AND getting told by numerous people that she did everything that she could for Seger and that she was an excellent caretaker. From my observations, this was not true AND I think that it is not making MJ face the reality of the situation, which is why I also suggested to MJ that she receives some counseling.

After the incident, I called MJ's neighbors where MJ's pony, Thunder is staying. I checked to make sure Thunder's condition was good. The neighbors assured me it is. I gave the neighbors my opinion of Seger's death. That has angered both MJ & her father and I was told to MYOB. My reply to that was two-fold. First, I said that when MJ can produce a written report from the vet stating in his proffessional opinion, why Seger was put down and if it differs from my own opinion, I would be happy to give any written or verbal apology to anyone she wants me to. Secondly, I told MJ & her father that "When animals can speak and cry out for help, I will remain silent. Until then, animal welfare is everyone's business"! I wish that I would have seen Seger before the day of his death. I knew that he was a hard keeper,but had I known how his condition had deteriorated, I would have stepped in.

That is my story. I hope it will make people stop making excuses for MJ. I don't know what went wrong. It was believed by myself and others that MJ has the knowlegde to provide proper care...another reason why I suggested to her to get some counseling.

Perhaps those of us that believe in God will say a prayer for MJ....she is a Christian.

Lisa Brezina
Fly High Farm
Welsh and Sport Ponies
http://www.geocities.com/flyhighwelsh

PaulaM
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:32 AM
How horrible for you to have had to see that.

Natty Dread
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:36 AM
Oh my God!!!

See, I knew there was way more to this...it was just a gut feeling. I feel bad for the girl...I really do but christ how can you sit and post and post and poat and not do anything?

FairWeather
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:37 AM
I have tears in my eyes from reading this.
I'm very sorry for Your loss.
I hope MJ gets the help she needs.

Always,
FairWeather
If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. - Jack Handy

http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/entrance.html

PMJ
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:37 AM
Thank you for posting the information. It gives a more complete viewpoint of what was going on and allows for a larger picture. It is also so much better than supposition. So sorry for all involved.

Tin
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:39 AM
OMG poor Seger at least where he is now he won't be in anymore pain.

Thank you Touche' for being strong enough to post the truth, I'm sorry you had to see that. As a witness I hope you'll be able notify the SPCA and get the proper authorities involved. It won't bring Seger back but it may stop them from getting another horse.

Ignorance is not and excuse.

Everythingbutwings
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:44 AM
I am sick about this. I truly appreciate your courage in posting this.

Bumpkin
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:49 AM
I believe most of us had this awful sick gut feeling that would not go away.
"Not that it gives us any satisfaction in saying so".

I had it looking at the photo of that poor horse in the field with the girl in the dress. He looked skinny and sad with a look I cannot really put down in words.

I don't want to think of him as Segar now but as the name the person who truly loved him gave him and registered him with. Cherry Upper.

Touche you know if there is anything we can do for you or your Vet you just have to ask.

Inverness
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:52 AM
I agree with ETBW; that was a very courageous post, Touche.

I too hope the girl (and her parents) get the counseling help they need. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"The optimist fell ten stories,
And at each window bar,
He shouted to the folks inside,
'Doing alright so far!'"

--Anonymous

Magnolia
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:52 AM
This is a really sad story. :-( I wish it could be broadcast to all of those people wanting to buy land so son/daughter could keep a pony. Horses are incredibly high maintenance - big bills, big time involved. They require commitment, not just from the owner, but from spouses and parents too. If you have never owned a horse or pony, you are not very likely to be ready to care for one out of your home. If you don't have an extra $400-$500 a month to devote to the horse, lease one or take lessons.

I doubt MJ neglected Seger's veterinary care out of cruelness, probably just ignorance and a lack of money. Sadly, that is never an excuse for anything. When we sign on to care for a dog, cat, pony, horse or child, we have an obligation to provide them what they need. Before we accept that responsiblity, we must look at all costs, time and money involved and choose if we are ready or not. I suppose that doesn't happen often enough...

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Kcorseinop
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:54 AM
Touche- since you had the "courage" to post that, I was wondering why you didn't bother posting the stuff you said about her being "so self centered, not caring what her parents though, everything was about 'her her her', she was so lazy and was only good for a day and a half of work" and the rest of the BS you wrote in your e-mail? You've already shot her down enough. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I must be the only one who still doesn't believe it...
Makes me sick. She's not coming back here guys- give it up.

Everythingbutwings
Oct. 24, 2001, 08:59 AM
Probably because that is her personal opinion and not facts and would not be appropriate given the guidelines of this BB.

Get a grip.

Kcorseinop
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:03 AM
And that is? IMO it's not, but this is my opinion. Just because it's different from everyone else's does NOT mean it's wrong. But thanks for telling me it was, I appreciate that...

Bumpkin
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:06 AM
Why don't you believe it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Eglinton
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:08 AM
This is disgusting...I don't care if she meant to starve the horse or not...this is no better than what happens to those poor horses in India and Jordan. In fact it's worse. If she didn't want to/couldn't care for the horse, she could have given it to the vet, a rescue, anything. She had the resources to take care of this animal. This is sick. All abusers and neglecters are lumped into ONE category for me..no matter what their sob story is. Thankyou touche for posting this story. I'm glad everyone knows the truth.

Touche'
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:09 AM
That e-mail was written the evening of the incident when I was still very freshly angry after checking the COTH BB and seeing that MJ had ignored my order for her ot stay off. The e-mail in question was written privately to the BB monitor AFTER MJ ignored my order for her to stay off. I felt the monitors should know the truth and had asked if they could block messages from MJ. They can't. I also gave the monitors permission to forward that letter onto anyone whom they thought needed to see it. Had MJ listened, I would never have had to let anyone know. As you can see, I did not want to make it a public discussion. Have you read the part about me willing to make any apology to anyone if I am wrong??? Did you also see the part where I said that I do not hate MJ? I am waiting for MJ to show me a written statement from the Vet. MJ knows that I will not get into a bickering match with her until I see the report, and niether will I with you. Until then, I have nothing left to discuss with you.

JustJump
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:09 AM
It's my guess that MJ is quite removed from reality--I sincerely hope she gets the help she so obviously needs.

She was advised many many times to get the vet out; it's a shame, Touche, that you seem not to have seen those posts--they appeared over a long period of time (more than a month) and surely they would have set t your alarm bells ringing if you had seen them. So many excuses as to why there was no vet, no trailer, etc...and then the ones about her father deciding to send the horse away, and her mother suggetsting the horse be put down. This was a long time coming, and a BB community can do only so much with words.

At this point, it can only be hoped that no further harm will result from this...Segar's death was a tragedy, and there is no going back. Maybe Touche can reassure us on this point, but from looking at her website and her posts, it doesn't seem that MJ has many places left to turn to--I pray that she doesn't do anything drastic and that she and her family begin to face the problems that they have. Again, I ask that those here on the BB consider that the continued negative comments, however well-justified, may be very destructive in what appears to be a fragile situation.

suzy
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:11 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Kcorseinop:
stuff you said about her being "so self centered, not caring what her parents thought, everything was about 'her her her', she was so lazy and was only good for a day and a half of work"

This describes most teenagers, and I don't mean that as an attack. I LOVE teaching teenagers, but I always go into it accepting that they are teens and, with few exceptions, will behave like teens and think that the world revolves around them. Heck, it revolved around "ME, ME, ME" when I was that age. It's the nature of the beast.

I don't disagree that mistakes have been made, but I'm still unwilling to participate in a witch hunt. Touche's suggestion that MJ get counseling is the most positive, constructive thing I've seen posted here.

JustJump, it would appear that we were posting simultaneously. I am in complete agreement with your comment, "Again, I ask that those here on the BB consider that the continued negative comments, however well-justified, may be very destructive in what appears to be a fragile situation."

lilblackhorse
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:14 AM
for explaining what happened. It just sounded too weird to me to put a horse down in those circumstances-if a horse is struggling, you get it out of it's predicament. Now we know poor Segar was too weak to move, and probably in a tremendous amount of pain. God, how horrible his last two months of life must have been-I hope the authorities are pressing charges, as well as the owners who gifted the poor animnal. Tiffany needs some major help.
What I wonder is that "did noone else SEE this horse for the last two months?". I am always on the lookout for abused and mistreated horses. I called last week when I saw a fully tacked up little horse tied to a barbed wire fence along a highway with a sign that said "white horse for sale"-the sheriff went and investigated. Call me nosy, but a horse's demise is not going to be on my shoulders if I can help it.
I am dreadfully sorry that Touche had to witness that sad ending, my heart goes out to her. For MJ, all I feel is contempt. Nuff said.

Kcorseinop
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:15 AM
I don't believe that she would deliberately do something like that to her horse. She is not that kind of person. It's not the fact that I don't believe he was malnourished, but M_J would not intentionally kill her horse, not even for lack of money. She's a kid, her parents know next to nothing about horses, she has had no formal training, no trainer, and she's already said she doesn't have much money - not to mention she was paying for this horse herself! She was more than likely too embarassed to ask for help for fear of thinking that people WOULD think she was starving her horse or something along those lines. I do agree that she needs help, to an extent, but I honestly think it's her parents who need to be informed. A 16 year old child can NOT handle the care of a horse all by themselves. As a teenager, once you get attached to something (especially a horse, when you feel like you have no one else to talk to) it's hard to let go. She was probably trying her hardest, and didn't want to admit that anything was wrong. If touche was so sure that something was wrong with Seger, she could have helped her from the beginning. I thought that was what friends were for, and i'm sure M_J would have done anything possibly to pay her back. THAT'S the kind of kid she is. Don't dump all the blame on M_J, that is the LAST thing she needs right now...

Caros Folks
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:16 AM
MJ originally said that she and her Mom had the conversation she 'dreaded' regarding putting the horse down. She stated from the begining that he was having trouble with his weight and that things were not good. We all said "GET THE VET". She said she had tried and he was coming. I don't feel she has been untruthful. Unless, I am missing something else (other than the fact that some of us would have been on the phone to call every friggin' Vet within 300 miles screaming Bloody Murder-but that's just me)

I will be the first one to criticize people for not knowing enough about the very animals that they are charged to care for, in fact I have publicly endorsed the "Own a Horse, possess a license to do so" approach. But in the end, people end up doing things there own way-sometime right, Sometimes Wrong-it's life.

I do think there is just a TAD bit of Sanctimony going on here. Although insightful, I don't really feel that Touche's post did anything to 'further the cause'. All that she did was stir up the mud a little bit and get most of you upset about facts, that if you were paying attention, were already presented to you.

Essentially, in the name of 'Truth' it seems that a bunch of folks are getting hurt and upset about events which can not be unchanged.

Can we just move on now? please???

dublin
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:20 AM
I do hope that MJ gets the counselling she obviously needs.

I am still almost physically ill that "mistakes" as Suzy puts it led to this poor horse's death. And sorry, I don't view the concern and shock felt by a number of posters as a "witch hunt".... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller
UCLA football RULES....Undefeated and #3 in the nation, baby!!

Natty Dread
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:21 AM
Unfortunately, I think the only thing to come of this drama is that we will all be hard-pressed to become too overly involved with future situations. I realize that this is strictly a bulletin board community. But I for one would be worried about giving future advice to a minor. That is one of the reasons I did not jump on the sympathy band wagon as soon as I heard. It just didn't sit right with me. While I have no way of proving anything regarding what did or did not happen, I can only go with what was presented to me in a public forum. This is a public forum and anything posted short of being Libelous is okay to comment on. This is a very unfortunate ending to a very unfortunate story. I feel sick, sick, sick about it. Where in god's name where the parents during all of this? Did they actually leave a 16 year old to "deal" with such an adult problem? I am 34 years old and have had to make some really hard decisions regarding animals I own and they were absolutely the toughest things I have ever had to do. I don't think as a 16 year old I could have. Not to take any responsibility away from her. Quite obviously she was not blind and could have, should have seen there was a problem...oh yeah, she did, she posted about it.....ALOT!!!! Did she do all she could have? Undoubtedly not. Can it be changed now? No. Am I bummed about it? You betcha! Do I think she should have another animal in her care? Nope, not til she is mature and financially capable of fending for them. I applaud everybody here who offered unsolicited advice. And who I know would have been there in a moment to help out. It is just a crying shame. Nuff said.

Eglinton
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:22 AM
Dublin I agree...and while I'm sure this girl does need councelling, she is the least of my concerns at this point. I am more concerned with the fate of any future horses she may have. She is 16, not 6. Afraid to ask for help? Please.

Louise
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:23 AM
What we say here does not help, and could very probably hinder finding help for MJ.

I'm not going to close this thread, I'm going to leave that to Erin, if she so chooses.

But please, remember that we are dealing with a 16 year old child here, not a hardened criminal. She CAN most probably be helped.

Take it easy and go hug your horses. They are all very lucky creatures.

Kcorseinop
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Touche':
That e-mail was written the evening of the incident when I was still very freshly angry after checking the COTH BB and seeing that MJ had ignored my order for her ot stay off. The e-mail in question was written privately to the BB monitor AFTER MJ ignored my order for her to stay off. I felt the monitors should know the truth and had asked if they could block messages from MJ. They can't. I also gave the monitors permission to forward that letter onto anyone whom they thought needed to see it. Had MJ listened, I would never have had to let anyone know. As you can see, I did not want to make it a public discussion. Have you read the part about me willing to make any apology to anyone if I am wrong??? Did you also see the part where I said that I do not hate MJ? I am waiting for MJ to show me a written statement from the Vet. MJ knows that I will not get into a bickering match with her until I see the report, and niether will I with you. Until then, I have nothing left to discuss with you.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok I really don't mean to be rude, and I don't want to get into a battle, but why should MJ stay off the BB? You are not her mother, she lives her own life and she can make her own decisions. If you are that concerned then you should have talked to her parents. Like teenagers ever listen anyways. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Anyways- as I said above, I really don't want to get into a fight or anything, so will stay off this thread from now on and let you guys continue with your business. Anyone who has something to say to me is more than welcome to e-mail me.

jsg24
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:25 AM
Touche, Thanks for your post. Maybe you can shed some light on MJ's family. What were her parents doing/thinking during all of this? I agree it is too much for a 16 year old to be the sole provider and caretaker for a horse.

Quinn
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:27 AM
Well CF, I am about to argue strenuously with you on that one.

For a horse to be in an emaciated state similar to those at the "knackers" are not horses who are merely hard keepers. These are horses who are on their way out.

I personally feel that Touche has put herself on the line in order to put an end to this tragic thread. Enough is enough, I agree. But, I feel we should be applauding Touche and not indicating she is "stirring the pot."

I have a friend in the Toronto area who is a poster on this BB. She contacted someone in the U.S. within close proximity to Indiana and offered to pay for the transport of Seger to another facility. She, like Touche, I believe has a deep love and concern for those who can't speak for themselves. Touche went on to tell us that the attending Veterinarian warned her about the condition Seger was in. My gut tells me Touche hasn't slept too well over the past week. I know I couldn't sleep last night.

As FW so eloquently stated, once we put a halter on those beasties, they are our responsibility. Period.

I respect fully the moderators' position on this and I too hope that M_J gets the counselling she needs but I also hope this situation NEVER happens again.

suzy
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:27 AM
We will never know the whole truth behind this situation, which is why I view it as a witch hunt. If MJ is truly at fault, than the people with FIRSTHAND knowledge (Touche and the vet) should contact the ASPCA directly.

Nothing at all is gained by rehashing this topic on this BB. The best that we can hope for is that MJ gets counseling.

Janet
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:29 AM
While I am as horrified as the rest of you with Seger's end, I DO object to the following overgeneralization.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If you have never owned a horse or pony, you are not very likely to be ready to care for one out of your home. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My parents had never owned a horse before when they bought a house with a barn on five acres. They then leased a pony for my sister and I to share, to see if we were REALLY willing to take care of it. When we showed we were, they bought a horse for me, and, when the leased pony had to be put down, one for my sister.

But there were some crucial differences.

-We lived in a horsey area (Guard Hill Rd in Mt Kisco NY) with lots of vets, etc., available.

- We had a good support structure, not just Pony Club, but the very knowledgeable grooms across the street at Tanrakin, and Mrs. Waller herself who would certainly have "intervened" if she thought things were out of hand. She once went up to my mother at a show and said: "I don't like the look of the hay you are feeding. It looks like... like ...TIMOTHY or something" (All her horses got straight alfalfa).

-If anything, my mother was more inclined to call the vet when not needed than the reverse. (Shortly after we bought Rocket (gelding), the pony (mare) developed some worrying symptoms. My mother was convinced she had some terrible kidney disease. The vet arrived, and din't seem to be taking it a seriously as she thought he should. After she gave a complete descripition, he said: "Mrs. Gunn, you have just described ALL the symptoms of a mare in heat." Needless to say, she was mortified, but it illustrates the point.)

Anyway, I think the crucial sucess factor is not whether the grownups have kept horses before, but whether thay are willing to take on the responsibiliity of horsekeeping. Yes, we (my sister and I) did all the work- feeding, mucking, blnketing, turning in and out, etc., but my parents were the primary decision makers on when to call the vet, etc. We had to raise the money to go to shows, but they paid all the basic upkeep.

If there is blame to be laid in this case, I think a lot of it should go to MJ's parents, who basically abdicated what should have been their responsibility.

dublin
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Anyone who has something to say to me is more than welcome to e-mail me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They'll need an e-mail address to do this. Nothing posted on your profile....

Kcorseinop
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:32 AM
forever_young0204@hotmail.com

Amy
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:35 AM
When I glanced at this topic yesterday I knew there was a fishy story here but I had not read any of MJ other posts.

I work for a vet and a normal healthy horse would have come out of a cast situation more than likely fine.... (at least what she described).

K- I am guessing she is a friend of yours? I don't understand how you can justify a 16 yo not doing something about a horse wasting away? If she could not afford tests and treatment she could have tried to find a rescue group that could help. Having many Tb's myself I know sometimes weight is an issue with them, but please! At 16 she should have gotten this horse some help! If you can't afford to take care of them, then don't own them! I don't mean expensive surgeries that might or might not work that would run thousands... but she could have done many things to help this guy out if indeed he had ulcers. AND I have yet to see a horse waste away completely from ulcers! Thin yes, but emaciated no.

If the horse was not emaciated as Touch said.... then what exactly was the deal?

By her own admission the horse's vitals were good until he was put down. He just was exhausted. Any normal horse that was exhausted.... give them IV fluid therapy and maybe tube him to get his energy level back up. You don't just put them to sleep a few hours afterward. There must be more.... blood cell counts being off. That is SO vague. Cell counts are off after any major muscle event so that tells you NADA.

Natty Dread
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:37 AM
It does my heart proud that there are so many really truly good, caring, generous, knowledgable, and openly available horse people out there. I now know that joining this cyber world vortex was a very wise decision.

Tin
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:37 AM
I agree that MJ needs help. A loss is a loss and she needs to deal with that first. I accept that but I will not accept "she didn't mean it" or "don't blame her". Who are we suppose to blame, Seger? We're taking about an innocent animal who has relied on his owner to help him and through her ignorance/pride, she let him down.

I got my first horse when I was 14, my parents didn't know about him for the first 2 years. He was kept at a boarding facility where it was in agreement that I did everything ecept own the facility. I took complete care of him (fed him, cleaned his stall, got farrier and vet visits, turned him out ect...) along with 25 other horses to work off him just being there. If there was one moment where I thought I couldn't do it, that horse would have been gone. I loved him too much to ignore his needs.

If Erin continues this thread I can't see this being dropped anytime soon. A death has occured, an animal has been betryaed and there are many people here that will can not just shrug this off.

<It's all part of my ninja training /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif >

Eglinton
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:43 AM
Ditto what Tin and Quinn said... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

UndeniedGirl
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:44 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

*Cass*
<~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~>

Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith...

Life is not a spectator sport!

Smile...it makes people wonder what you have been doing /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

GW
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:45 AM
I'm not sure why some people are having a hard time believing that MJ hasn't told the truth. All of her posts are full of contradictions and excuses. She claims to be in an area where there are no vets or horses, yet she belonged to a pony club (must have been one small pony club). Any horse in the condition she described should have been seen by any large animal vet available, not just the equine specialist. Where there are cattle, there are vets. She claimed not to have any money, yet she had things she could have sold (computer, cell phone, etc.) and at the same time as she was pleading poverty re: Seger's blanket, she was looking for used breeches on the dressage board and buying tickets to a Kenny Chesney concert. Clearly there were people she could have turned to for help, Touche being one of them. When people here offered her blankets, she never took anyone up on it. If you have followed even half of what's gone on, you should have noticed the glaring contradictions.

suzy
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:49 AM
This is exactly why she needs HELP.

gwen
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:51 AM
it took 2 weeks to get a vet appointment yet when it came down to it, the day he died he was there within an hour!!!

Barb /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Cinco de Mayo
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by gwen:
it took 2 weeks to get a vet appointment yet when it came down to it, the day he died he was there within an hour!!!

Barb /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And he had time to call Touche' on the way?
/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Bumpkin
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:56 AM
The one who was betrayed the most was Cherry Upper. Maybe he was not even cast but just down from malnutrtion and exhaustion. Betrayed by someone who was trusted to care for him.

I am sorry,but I cannot forgive her for her ignorance and selfish pride.
Especially with the multitude of postings and excuses she made on here as though there was no problem. Joking as though nothing really happened the night that Cherry Upper died.
Everyone has offered help from way back.

Someone said they could see a group of BB'ers embarking on a road trip to save this horse.
If he was alive today, he would not be where he died.

Amy
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:57 AM
If we have an emergency and are going to a call (may take some time to get there) it is entirely possible that we may call the clinic and get another tech headed over to the emergency. Sometimes the clinic is actually closer than we are.

So if the vet knows Touch very well... it *could* be possible she was on the list of folks to call to lend a hand to this girl (knowing that she is so inexpereinced).

My vet knows even on my off days if he needs to he can call me to respond to an emergency.

Everythingbutwings
Oct. 24, 2001, 09:59 AM
Kudos to all of the generous and helpful people on this board for offering support and advice in response to the horse's plight.

I personally feel sickened knowing how my trust was abused but am so proud to be a part of the overall outstanding group of wonderful people here. Let's not let that "one bad apple" spoil what we have.

Bumpkin
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:02 AM
Yes we all have a good bond, this won't break it ever.
I know that you would help me as quickly as dozens of other wonderful people we have met on this BB.
We cannot loose our trust because of ths incident, like ETBW has stated.

Cactuskate
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:02 AM
Touche, may I first commend you for coming forward with your very honest post of the facts as you saw them. We have needed that enlightenment.

Now to the rest of you that have chosen to chastise Touche. All we heard about yesterday was, "How can we be so judgemental? No one was there to see exactly what happened. The condition of the horse."

Well here is someone who I have to give credibility to. She was there, had previous knowledge of the horse, the child, the vet.

FOR GOD SAKE PEOPLE WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT????

Sorry for the scream but you're drivin' me nuts.

It really isn't my call to judge this child, but I will repeat, the day you take possession of any animal, you have taken responsibility for their every need. Some people do a better job than others. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"

Posting Trot
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:03 AM
I obviously don't have the definitive story on what happened any more than the rest of you do. It seems quite possible to me that a 16 year old (with all of the positives and negatives that go with that age) was in over her head, caring for a horse who had some issues (recently off the track, ulcers, etc.), let him lose too much weight and condition before contacting the vet, and then had the horrible luck of the horse becoming cast. The horse probably had zero reserves to draw on, panicked, injured himself, and couldn't be revived sufficiently to warrent the stress of additional medical intervention. There's plenty of blame to go around, but that's not really what I wanted to post about.

One problem that this whole story brings up for me, is actually the problem of the BB. The BB is an incredible resource for contacting caring people, getting opinions, and just plain venting. But, in some cases, some people may use the assistance they receive on the BB as a substitute for relatively high-cost veterinary care. They may also use the BB community as a substitute for the kind of local community that PC provides, or that the barn manager and other boarders provide at a boarding facility. Anyone can make a mistake, but if there are others around, who can actually see what's going on *before* a crisis erupts, the worst consequences of that mistake can be avoided.

JMHO.

Eglinton
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:03 AM
You're right, ETBW...I think for the most part we are a good group of people who care about all horses, wether we own them or not.

dublin
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:04 AM
With you 100% on those thoughts.

MGR
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:05 AM
Well said EBW.

Maria

Natty Dread
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:13 AM
Christ...I said the same thing a page back and I never got any smiley faces!!!

I think the vast majority of us on this board are pretty knowledgable horse people and would never take advice from a board over calling a vet. Gimme a break, we know when we are in over our heads. Give us some credit.

Canter
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:16 AM
This whole thing is tragic.

It's a tragedy that an innocent animal had to die.

It's a tragedy that a 16 year old failed to uphold her responsibility.

It's a tragedy that no one was able to intervene until it was too late.

It's a tragedy that this entire tragedy has been witnessed by all of us on this BB.

It's a tragedy that our trust has possibly been betrayed.

But the real tragedy is this same situation is taking place right now, somewhere else. It's up to each and every one of us to keep our eyes open and to report any signs of animal abuse that we may suspect - and also to give generously the next time you are asked to donate money to an animal shelter or group. Better yet, go out and make a donation in that poor horse's name.

We owe our good animal friends that at the very least.

Bumpkin
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:17 AM
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
this is for you.
You already know I like your outlook!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Clive's Mom
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:17 AM
We all have our opinions on this, but the general concensus is that our gut instincts were right and this owner needed more guidance than she got.
It concerns me that M_J wrote so many heart-wrenching posts that mobilized the great folks on this board when that same advice was pretty much forsaken. However, it has come out that several of you lived close by, and it wasn't until he was at death's door that you paid him a visit. (Touche - I know you feel a tremendous amount of guilt, I'm not trying to add to it. You had no idea it was that bad, I'm just pointing out something for ALL of us to think about in the future - ie, that it COULD be that bad).

There are about 100 other things I'd like to say, but so many of you have said them better than I could. All I know now is, if someone in Northern VA is having problems and asks for help on this board, I'm offering to get in my car and come out to see them if the posts warrant that. I would hope that the rest of you would offer the same.

- C

Posting Trot
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:18 AM
No offense was intended to anyone. And I am not suggesting that there is anything one could concretely do to prevent someone from misusing the BB.

And Natty, I'm 45, and you've admitted to being 34. Yes, *we* would probably know when we're in over our heads.

Cactuskate
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Canter:

But the real tragedy is this same situation is taking place right now, somewhere else. It's up to each and every one of us to keep our eyes open and to report any signs of animal abuse that we may suspect - and also to give generously the next time you are asked to donate money to an animal shelter or group. Better yet, go out and make a donation in that poor horse's name.

We owe our good animal friends that at the very least.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good point.

"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"

LMH
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:22 AM
Natty-there is a reason for no smilies-haven;t you read the invisible poster thread??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Life is too short to dance with ugly men

Founding Member: Invisible Poster Clique

Bumpkin
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:26 AM
I have been actively doing Jack Russell Terrier rescues for over 25 years.
Before the JRTCA even had any rescue plans.
I have seen and heard it all.
So I am a cynic when people ask for help or advice and keep coming back without even taking any of the advise and using it.

The worst case on my mind at the moment is the lady with cancer and 15 + dogs loose in her house.
Dogs were rescued from a house that had dog poo everywhere.
The house stunk so badly you had to wear a mask. And the poo was on the walls, windows, everywhere. /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
We took these dogs placed them in foster homes, spayed, neutered and found them nice permanent homes.

The lady goes into remission and goes out and purchases more dogs to breed and sell /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Sorry to ramble, but I love animals and sometimes hate people. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Hattie
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:26 AM
I know that this situation has been very hard on you and thank you for finally posting what the "truth" is. This has involved so many caring people on this board and the hurt is deep with everyone.

Miniwelsh
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:28 AM
Touche, thank you for posting your first hand knowledge of the facts involving this sad story. I imagine after witnessing something that devestating, I would have been angry as well. While ignorance can excuse certain behavior, a normal human would notice when an animals reaches killer pen level emaciation. I still fault the parents, but am saddened that any horse lover could let this go as far as it did, then ask for sympathy, and advice on whether it would be okay to trot off to a concert. I have tried to understand both sides of the story until the facts came out and stil believ that nothing we say here can bring the poor animal back, but have to say I am sad to see the real story.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

dublin
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm 45, and you've admitted to being 34. Yes, *we* would probably know when we're in over our heads.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

16 years of age should have been old enough to have handled the situation differently than this. But apparently not in this case, most unfortunately for this poor horse. JMHO.

hitchinmygetalong
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:40 AM
...that we closed this topic? I've heard enough, thank you.

"The simple truth is never simple and rarely true."
-Oscar Wilde

FairWeather
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:40 AM
From happening again?

There were warning signs. "Crap-meter" Triggers Went off all over the world reading about this horse.
Looking back...What could have been done?
What can we do in the future??? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Always,
FairWeather
If you ever reach total enlightenment while you're drinking a beer, I bet it makes beer shoot out your nose. - Jack Handy

http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/entrance.html

Jair
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:41 AM
You know, I feel very sorry for Musical_Jumper now. As horrible as this whole situation has been and as disgusted and angry as it made me to think someone was unable to recongize a pathetically skinny and sick horse in their care, I still feel sorry that out there is this 16 year old girl who is dealing with the knowledge that she contributed to the death of the animal that she did indeed love in her own way.

I agree with everything that has been posted above, and yet I still feel for her. I do not understand, nor can comprehend, how she was unable to recognize what she was doing to her own horse, (or her parents lack of intervention either!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif ) it makes me suspect that all is not right with her in more than one way, and it is saddening that a girl so young has had such negative influences in her life that lead her to an inability to either accept truth and reality or to recognize suffering. I for one hope that Tiffany gets the counseling she so obviously needs.

I still feel sorry for Seger though /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Miniwelsh
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:41 AM
I will add that I hope someone involved has contacted the ASPCA. It does not sound like MJ or her family have learned from this experience and I for one fear for the well being of the other pony.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

KellyS
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:43 AM
Thank you, Touche

I am crying reading this thread.

Heather
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:44 AM
I have followed all these threads, but haven't posted until now.

I will not be offering my opinion on this turn of events, because I don't think it will add anything. What I would like to do is relate a story of a friend of mine--not to make specific commentary on this incident, but rather attempt to point out that there are a lot of horsepeople in the world who aren't like us, and thus aren't necessarily wrong.

I have a dear friend who is an equine vet--she practiced for many years in the Middleburg area and her clients were the creme de le creme of the racing, hunter/jumper, eventing, and dressage worlds. She said 90% of the serious (i.w. life-threatening or life-ending) injuries and illnesses were cause by a conscious decision of an owner/trainer/rider to compete an animal in its discipline--often because the horse "wasn't quite right", but often just because of the inherent risk in competition. To be frank, she got tired of putting horses back together, only to have to do it all over again the next month.

So, she took a position in rural southern Virginia--some competitove types, but far more breeding and backyard folks. I spoke to her about a month after she had moved and asked how it was going. She related that it had been a real shock--because 90% of the seriious cases she was treating now were related to "ignorance" injuries. Including injuries realted to innapropriate fencing materials, innapropriate care and in one memorable case, a pony that had been left in the front yard tied to a truck tire, so it "could eat some grass". I asked her if she was rethinking the move, and to my surprise, she said "Absolutely not!" Her pointwas that while the ignorance injuries were often mind-boggling, the people's general response when she explained the cause of the injury and how to prevent it in the future was shocked horror that they had done something wrong, and would seek to make amends to prevent futur problems.

"At least these people are willing to learn from their mistakes," she said. "It's a lot better to have to treat the same horse for three different ingnorance injures, than to treat the same horse for the same problem again and again, because "he has to go" to the next horse show, event, or race. I'd rather stich up 6 million wire cuts, than have to inject for the hundreth time the joints of some poor old campaigner whose crippled and should be retired, but "has to get Suzy to Indoors"."

An interesting point, I thought. Regardless of my personal feelings about the ultimate outcome in this case, I am uncomfrotable with a tone I sense in these posts that seems to say "If you aren't(a)in a show/boarding facility; (b)incredibly experienced or knowleadgable; (c)over 25 years of age; (d) have a certain amount of income, etc., etc., you don't deserve to own a horse. This gets into a dangerous sliipery-slope type of territory very quickly, that I think we need to be careful of.

Zimt
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:51 AM
After being aghast at this, I find myself asking (as others have) "what do the parents have to say?" (apart from mind your own business). Do they know what really happened?

You know, generally when it is known that an animal has been neglected and died as a result of neglect the SPCA presses charges.

Here's a recent article from Horse and Hound:
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/news/article/0,,84426,00.html

I am sure that M_J knows pretty well by now that she made mistakes she will have to live with for the rest of her life, but I am not convinced her parents realize all this.

I am NOT saying M_J and her family should be turned in, but nobody's even mentioned the legal implications, and being aware that this is *potentially* a prosecutable offense could maybe have knocked some sense into her parents before it was too late.

Another thing that occurred to me, and not to be slanderous but simply to point a possibility out: How is M_J's relationship with her parents? Could it be that M_J's parents are hard-headed? Difficult for her to get along with? Not amenable to costs and so on related to horses? Is it possible M_J was too scared to ask them for help for fear they'd...say no? Such things do happen. Having parents who are...shall we say..."less than supportive"...can be stupefying, paralysing...can lead you to forget how to do the right thing. Know what I mean?

lilblackhorse
Oct. 24, 2001, 10:52 AM
Hitch's post of hearing enough, than that's your choice to no longer read this thread. However, as long time posters here, many of us feel DUPED by this kid who involved us by her posts, and then makes up stories about how her horse died, neglecting the facts that she ostensibly caused this young horse's death. I am angry because I feel used, and my guess is that many other longtime bb'ers here feel the same way. I also feel at a loss and frustrated-had we been told the truth (and I am sorry, but a 16 year old KNOWS when they are in over their head, and this kid has a cell phone-USE IT)...she could have sent out the rallying troops here and I can guarantee that someone in the tristate area there WOULD have even come and gotten that horse, had she wanted to save him. Yes, frustration, anger, sadness, we are feeling it. If you feel that this topic needs to end, then don't read it-For me, I am quite bothered by the situation, and it does my heart good to grieve with my cyber "friends" who are also feeling the same way, and talking in the way which we are-just trying to make SENSE of what has happened to an innocent horse. Much like the talk of 9/11 when we just couldn't fathom what was happening. "how could someone?"....some need to grieve in peace, others find comfort in talking it out....I am humbled by the outpouring of love and concern shown on this bb, and am proud to be a part of it. I am just so profoundly saddened that we could not do more....and that there are others out there like him.

suzy
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:01 AM
Jair, it's nice to see some compassion for a child that doesn't appear to be getting ideal parental guidance. I hate to see the baby thrown out with the bath water, or in this case, the child buried along with the horse. As Louise said, she is not a hardened criminal.

Heather, you make so many good points, and it is comforting to read that most peoples' reactions to their ignorance is "shocked horror." I've witnessed the same, which is why I would rather give people the benefit of the doubt and try to help them instead of castigating them. This reminds me of something that happened when I was a teenager; a fellow boarder who was older but was just getting into horses tied her horse to the sliding stall door. He panicked and ran off dragging the door behind him. Fortunately, the injuries were minor, but she was in tears and so upset with herself. A few days later, I saw her leading him out to the paddock without the throat lash of his halter fastened. I apologized for butting in but did mention why it would be better to fasten the throat lash. She was incredibly appreciative of the advice since she really did not know. I refrain from giving unsolicited advice unless it's a health or safety issue - and then no one is going to shut me up.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

just_me
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:03 AM
First, thank you Touche for posting the eyewitness story.

When MJ posted her long posts about her parents and their attitudes, I felt that something was not right. That something was not being stated.

And where were the parents... /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

This really bothers me. How could they let a 16 year old handle the total care, expense, and responsibility of a horse and pony, especially when there seemed to be health issues with the horse? The horse was on their property, no? How could they not notice that the animal was emaciated? If they had a problem with Tiffany owning the horse, they should have insisted she find another home for him.

I've seen emaciated horses when I volunteered after Hurricane Andrew. (All the lost and abandoned horses were brought to Tropical Park in Miami for care by volunteer vets and others. Some horses were in such bad shape, and not from the Hurricane, that instructions were to call the police if the owners showed up and tried to claim them.) Anyway, there's no way to not notice an emaciated horse.

These parents share a lot of the blame. They are the adults in this situation. They're supposed to be the responsible, clear-thinking individuals in the equation. They should be ashamed of themselves. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Natty Dread
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:06 AM
Step off of that band wagon-GIRL!!! None of us not 1 person has ever eluded to the fact that you must be rich, in a fancy barn, or over legal age....NOT ONE!!! What we are saying if you read...MY KNICKERS ARE IN A BUNCH....is that you must and I repeat must be responsible to care for animals. Now I know this is not a perfect world. I am not so dense! There are so many bad animal people out there!!! But if you can hook up a modem, make a website, post on The Chronicle of the Horse boards many times a day, you can certainly tell if the walls in the stall are covered in diarrhea and that too many ribs are showing. My god where do you come off. We have all been more then supportive!!! Who are you to judge us this way!!!! Can you tell I am a little worked up over this? I desperately hope you reread what you posted because there is not a one of us here who blamed not being rich enough as a good enough reason. You silly, silly person....

dublin
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:06 AM
I certainly hope there is some "shocked horror" on the part of MJ and her parents, although frankly I am not getting that impression based upon the information in Touche's posts....

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller
UCLA football RULES....Undefeated and #3 in the nation, baby!!

Waterwatch
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:16 AM
I agree totally with how you feel. I have run the gamut with my feelings about the whole situation.

I truly believe the the fault ultimately lies with MJ's parents. Where were they during all this?? Are they that ignorant?? She is a minor, and whether they like it or not, they are responsible for what she does and how she behaves until she's 18. I don't care how much they do or do not know about horses,it had to be obvious how ill Seger was and it was their RESPONSIBILITY to take care of the situation. The horse was on property that they owned. I love how people decide to have children but don't want the responsibilty and obligations that comes with raising them....but that's a whole other thread. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"May the happiest days of your past be the saddest days of your future."

AAJumper
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:23 AM
I am one of those who was very suspicious about all these events as well. I had many conversations with my cyberfriends regarding this matter. I was even considering offering to send a blanket, but others did so first. I have been following all the posts from M_J for a long time. And what I see here is major DENIAL on her part. I understand that bad things can happen out of ignorance. But we hopefully realize where we went wrong and make an effort never to make that mistake again. I don't see that effort here.

I see no attempt by M_J to internalize what has happened, and to learn from those mistakes. This has been a long time coming...I remember a time when her father wanted her to sell or give the horse away because she was unable to care for it. She was insistant that she not give up on the horse because she thought he was talented. Many people on this BB gave her advice which she blantantly ignored and argued about, constantly dismissing suggestions and twisting the story.

What I see here is a 16-year old girl with some obvious emotional problems who was ignorant or somehow blind to what was going on (and I can't fathom how that is possible, giving the state he was in). However, that is no excuse for what has happened. It is sickening. What is even more sickening is the fact that she won't even ADMIT to ANY wrongdoing. From what she has said on the board, she holds her herself totally blameless....that she did EVERYTHING she could. She's so far in denial that she won't even learn from this, because she has chosen not to internalize any of this, and has comforted herself with visions of the horse cantering in the clouds. THIS is what I find so infuriating.

And Natty, I agree with you 100%. I did not get the impression anywhere on this thread that people were saying or even implying that you had to have a lot of money to own a horse. I had NO money when I was in college and supported a horse in Los Angeles. I lived at home, worked at Target 6 hours a week, went to UCLA, and worked with horses to pay my board (cleaning stalls, feedin the entire barn every Sunday night, grooming, braiding, whatever). I boarded at a co-op barn for $125/month, and my horse got as much hay as he needed. So it can be done, even in a big city.

Waterwatch
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:24 AM
just_me

I think we were burning up the keyboards at the same time. I agree with you totally!!!

"May the happiest days of your past be the saddest days of your future."

LisaW-B
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:30 AM
Touche, thank you for posting.

I just wanted to say that when we are young, most of our attitudes and our ability to make decisions and to cope come from our parents. We learn from them. So, in this case, it seems pretty likely that M_J's parents are of the "oh well, we do what we can" variety, when they clearly do NOT do what they can.... they might be people who really either do not *know* how to get or ask for help, or explore options, or who consciously or subconsciously *choose* not to, for a variety of reasons. This is a behavior that M_J can certainly unlearn. She's only 16. Counseling would be a great place to start. Reaching out to the other horse people in her neighborhood is an even better place to start. If you need help, in anything in life, you HAVE to first know that you need help (which M_J seemed to), and then ASK for help, and finally, ACCEPT help. You can not sit around playing "poor pitiful me" without sometimes fatal consequences, as she just learned. Manipulative behavior, whether conscious or not, almost always ends up coming back to haunt the manipulator. You have to realize that the world, right here on this BB for example, is full of compassionate people who truly WANT to help, and WILL help. If Vet A can not come, you HAVE to get Vet B even if he/she's not your first choice. You HAVE to ask someone with a horse trailer to get you a ride, even if you have a lot of pride. Where there is a will, there is a way--if something matter enough to you, you will find a way to do it.

M_J, if nothing else, I hope that Seger's tragic death has taught you the importance of exploring all of your options, and being willing to accept help, and that as valuable as online friends can sometimes be, when things matter most, it is the people around you who can actually help. I hope you have learned what your priorities should be--as a teen, perhaps with unsupportive parents, I know that can be hard, but if there is ever a choice between a life and a pair of concert tickets, for example, life should ALWAYS come first. Please, learn how to reach out in the real world, and how to ask questions, and know and admit when you are in too deep.

suzy
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:34 AM
Fairweather asked: How can we help this from happening again? Looking back--what could have been done? What can we do in the future?

I think these are excellent questions and would like to hear people's thoughts.

gwen
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:38 AM
I don't know. It seems like there were about 10 or so people who OFFERED winter blankets and such. People offered alot of suggestions on taking care of him and it just seems like someone needed to actually go out there and check on him. That is very hard...but i just don't know!

Barb /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Everyone is so generous on these boards, I just can't say enough about everyone!!!! I remember when I thought my riding stuff was stolen with our car, some kind person offered me her extra pair of chaps!!! Everyone tried their best I think..even getting NAGGING and pressuring but this is a situation where that was needed. But it just went in one ear and out the other!!

Cactuskate
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:39 AM
I like your post, why don't you take fairweather's thought and start it as a new topic?

I think it is worthy of its own identity and not to be drug through the mire of this title.

What do you think?

"The older I get, the better I used to be, but who the heck cares!"

Heather
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:43 AM
Easy Natty, down girl, its OK. I wasn't flaming or picking on anybody, just making an observation.

First, I didn't mention in my post what my feelings on this given incident are--and I won't here, but don't presume to know how I'm feeling about all of this.

Second, I almost didn't post the bit about the money, because I knew it would get a reaction like yours. But, I think its a point--many, many people own and love animals for whom they cannot finacially provide emergency care--watch Emergency Vets on Animal Planet and see how many people cannot afford treatment. While I personally would not do this, I don't think I have a right to tell someone that they don't have enough money to have a dog, cat, or horse. And while no one has said "You must be rich to have a horse" there have been many comments made that someone in her dire financial straights should not have taken the horse on. Again, in this specific case, that may be true, however, I think it is mistake to start setting generlaized finacial limits on horse ownership.

Please understand that I am attempting to somewhat steer this thread in a more general direction--provoke thoughts (as many other posters have done nicely) on what can be done now and in the future, and how we think of horses all around us.

I live in a pretty rural area--I've had a long professional career with horses (as in I've worked and ridden in professional barns on several occaisions), and though my horses get what to my perception is approapriate care, I am surrounded by horses (three across the road in one direction and one across the road in another) that get very different care. Now, I would step in if they looked emaciated (in truth they are all tick-fat), however, its not my business that they don't have stalls/run-ins, or blankets, or three-board fencing, or attention on a conistennt basis. Their feet aren't what I would call ideal, but they are walking sound. Their teeth probably don't get floated. They probably don't get shots. I would hazrd there are far more horses living in these sorts of conditions than live like the ones in my barns or yours. So I don;t think its my place to judge right and wrong.

jSTR
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:44 AM
that I felt tremendous responsibility to my animals, and that I really am PETRIFIED of doing something that "isn't right", or in their best intrests. I think what we can learn from this is that a horse, or any animal, but ESPECIALLY a horse, b/c of it's size/need/etc isn't like a goldfish. You need to have a certain amount of knowledge, ability, time, and I'm sorry to say it, money, in order to care for these animals correctly. I live in manhattan. Basically, I know next to nothing about how to care for a horse on a day-to-day basis. Because of this, my family is especially careful about boarding our horses in places where they will get the best full care with someone we trust. Everyone has a right to have horses touch their lives, but not everyone has the right to be totally responsible for another life. Horses are like children-- they cannot be an "experiment", in order to have the RESPONSIBILTY of caring for one, you must have the CAPABILITY to care for one. Of course, they will teach you things as you go along, but there has to be a base of resources and knowledge first.

charter memeber, Thread Killers Anonymous
(yes, this means you should yell at me when my posts are too long, and bump threads that I kill)

headsup
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:53 AM
The only thing I will add to this is that not everyone can see the "actual" condition of their horse. Case in point: a students mother drives up the barn driveway one day and tells me there is a horse loose on the road. I get halter and lead and jump in car. Pony was so emaciated that it actually, with no exaggeration looked like a skeleton with skin. No owners in sight. We called all of the rescue farms within 3 hrs...none open on Sundays. Owners apparently drove around looking for pony, see her in my arena. Ask us to help them bring her back to farm. I declined and questioned her politely about the mare's condition. Owners thought she looked fine, after all they gave her 1 flake a day and water, that was all she needed right? After picking up my jaw off the ground I tried to explain a "better" feeding for her. I even showed her my horses as examples. She thought I was insane, 1 flake and water is clearly enough...or she would be dead already...I told the woman I was calling in her neglect and I took pictures. To date, only one horse rescue ever returned my calls and they said I had to get animal control/humane society out first. Both came and looked at my pictures before "bothering" the owners. They were unconcerned....if I scanned the pictures I think some of you might pass out, I myself almost threw up looking at her I was so upset. At any rate, my point is that if people don't KNOW they won't do anything. I'm not defending anyone, but I sure have seen that if she was that ignorant...she sure isn't the only one.

Heidi
Oct. 24, 2001, 11:57 AM
This 'incident' is stupefying, upsetting; and I can't help but feel great anger towards the reckless disregard for Seger's welfare.

Youth does not absolve you from common sense. I have an 11-year-old daughter who rides - I have absolutely no doubt that had she happened upon a horse as emaciated as described, she'd have the wherewithal to call the vet immediately. There's knowledge -- and then there's the common sense that's acquired if one spends any time whatsoever around horses. That common sense doesn't require an age of majority card.

As Tin and others have posted, there are many young teens who approach horse ownership with great dedication, bearing the weight of their reponsibility willingly, with great passion. What I find profoundly upsetting is MJ's insistence that somehow she is the one to be pitied; the radius of her concern hasn't shifted from herself to Seger. Yes, most teens are self-centered (I know I was) but at what point, when confronted with a starving horse, does one actually put the horse's health and welfare before our own desires? Caring for a horse is not unlike parenting, at some point you have to realize, for the welfare of the horse or young child, that your own needs and desires rank second to theirs.

What she should have done, the help that was available to her had she asked, well, that's all moot now. What remains relevant is our shared anger and horror that this tragedy unfolded before our very eyes, compounded and perpetuated by self-serving misinformation.

I'm having difficulty summoning up compassion for MJ; perhaps we're all going through the collective stages of grief and we remain, for now, and understandably now that the truth has come out, fixated on anger.

My only concluding thought remains that had my 11-year-old enabled such a tragedy, I'd be as angry with her as I am now with MJ -- the reality is, though, that even at 11, she would clearly and absolutely have known better.

MJ, if you're lurking and reading through this thread, please seek some help.

vineyridge
Oct. 24, 2001, 12:09 PM
MJ's parents were definitely concerned about the horse's welfare. They could see that he was not thriving and suggested that MJ find another home for him and, later, that she have him put down.

They knew the horse was in trouble. Why didn't they get involved? I dunno. Maybe they had an ironclad agreement with MJ that the horse was her entire responsibility. Maybe they felt she ought not to get off the hook she had swallowed. Maybe she refused their help, their advice, and their caring. Maybe she had so withdrawn into the her own cyber world that she couldn't/wouldn't listen. I agree with the rest of the board that she needs help NOW, but maybe this horrible event and its consequences have brought MJ and her parents together again--because she will need all the consolation she can get now to keep living from day to day.

The one thing that I personally don't understand is why neither MJ or her parents contacted Touche when it became obvious that something was going badly wrong. If the previous relationship was as Touche describes it (and I believe her), WHAT HAPPENED?

Now that I've posted, the thread will die--and that might be a good thing.

Everythingbutwings
Oct. 24, 2001, 12:10 PM
Having been to the auction and seen the condition of some of the horses brought in, it amazes me that there are always some so emaciated that only the killer is going to buy them.

The killer basically bids the going rate per pound for horseflesh. Why people will wait until the value of their animal drops so low to take it to the sale is beyond me.

Hilary
Oct. 24, 2001, 12:11 PM
Heather's post about the issues rural vets see with people who simply do not know better, promted me to share my one (and hopefully only) rescue intervention.

I was asked to trailer and house a horse owned by former boarders. They had free-leased their horse to a woman when their daughter stopped riding. This person subsequently became unable to care for the horse and ASSURED the owners that the family she found to take him was competent. Mom had horses in the past, and the 2 kids had other animals. Long story short, "mom" left and the horse, in the care of "dad" and the 12 year old girl, slowly starved.

Someone reported the situation, and the owners wanted to take him back but the man refused to give him up, and also refused to acknowledge that the horse was anything but fine. Offers of nearby pasture and extra care were refused and the man was belligerent and threatening to anyone who came near.

Because the owners had their papers, they were legally allowed to take him away but a police escort was needed to get the horse out of the home, (I had to park my trailer 1/2 a mile away) and I reeled when I saw him. The horse was skeletal. Tnen, an even bigger shock- the policeman asked me "this is too thin for a horse?" He had no idea that he was looking at a horse who could barely still walk. I pointed out all the things you should not see - the spine, the hip bones, dipped neck, the eye hollows, the falling out hair, and that sickly sweet smell of the body eating itelf. This points to the fact that many many people know very little about animals, and what is "obvious" to us, is news to them. Like Heather's friend we need to educate people like this - at least that cop will know a starving horse next time he comes across one.

I took him home, and my vet examined him and said that he was so malnourished that his feet had not grown in several months.

The family who had allowed this to happen was in denial and so involved with their own conflicts (Dad was punishing his ex-wife, among other things) that they could not see clearly. The cop had to explain to the sobbing 12 year old girl that it was NOT her fault that "her" horse had to leave.

As I said, I hope this is the only time I ever have to see a horse like this, but boy were my eyes opened to the social issues that can be involved as well as the animal issues.

The happy ending is that he is now fat and well loved in a home where he can live out his days.

Seven
Oct. 24, 2001, 12:14 PM
Thanks for putting into words what I've spent all morning trying to draft.

Is there *any* explanation for the tradegy that occurred when we now understand and have witnessed that help was ALL AROUND this girl and horse -- both real and virtual? Is there anything we could have done differently that would have/could have made a difference?

As for what we should do in the future? I can only suggest (as I have learned through my private conversations with other BBers) that we should stop holding back when we see red flags. A lot of people (myself included) read the warning signs in her post's and yet failed to make a more compelling plea to her or take any action on the horse's behalf. I certainly admire those who took a hard line with her about getting appropriate care for Cherry Upper, and I can only feel ashamed that I didn't do more myself.

=^+^=

LAZ
Oct. 24, 2001, 12:28 PM
Well, if you actually give a horse away, with no covenants, nothing much. If you do someone the favor of providing them a means to ride and own a horse (when they can't afford to buy said horse) then you should probably also keep an eye on the horse to be sure the person can/will take care of it.

Typically the least expensive part of horses is the purchase price.

Typically people do not want to admit they're in over their heads financially (look at at all the people who file bankruptcy in your daily paper).

Typcially people do not INTEND to harm their animals. It happens anyway, sometimes.

Ignorance is not uncommon. I'm not advocating tolerance here--I'm advocating education. We had a family put their horse on self care at the barn where I keep my horses this summer--they thought one flake of hay per day was sufficient, along with a quart of grain and a bucket of water. The horse had been on pasture board at its previous home and had done just fine on that feeding program. I put my nose where it didn't belong and (somewhat tactfully, I hope) told them what their feeding program should be considering the horse was no longer getting nutrition from grass. They were grateful for the input and started feeding the poor thing.

My sister lives in Cataract, IN, by Cloverdale. I used to foxhunt in Spencer, IN with the New Britton Hunt. I do endurance races in various parts of southern Indiana. I do dressage shows and I event. I can tell you that by most of your standards there are a lot of ignored/ill-treated horses in the area. They might get wormed once a year, but maybe not. Many have no shelter. Many have a scummy pond for their water source. They have no pasture to speak of. Their feet have never seen a farrier. They get dragged out to be trail ridden 20 miles in Brown County in a single day with no fitness level what-so-ever. What are you going to do about it? Most of the horses are poor, not starving. What can you do about it? You can't legistate that everyone keeps horses to your standards (even though I wish we could stipulate a minimum care standard). I would hazard a guess that the majority of horse owners do not provide the standard of care that most of us that read the Chronicle consider to be minimal. I have no statistics to back this up--just observations.

I do not think that bashing this girl, and making her even more ashamed of herself than she must be is going to help anything. Rather than berating the obvious, maybe we should all spread around a little of the education we've been so fortunate to aquire. Volunteer to work at the humane society, a pony club, or a girl scout badge on horse care. Find some positive way to spread useful information instead of being sanctimonious or judgemental--and if you see something like this happening for God's sake STICK YOUR NOSE IN BEFORE IT GETS TOO BAD! It's very easy to say mean or hurtful things when you don't have to stand in front of someone and look into their eyes to say it...

Lee Ann

KellyS
Oct. 24, 2001, 12:46 PM
Heidi - good post!

Just because a person is a teenager and going through "teenage times" does not absolve them from the acts they commit.

I feel quite strongly on this subject...just last night a teenager neighbor planted a bomb in his condo right next to ours...many hours of police, bomb squad, fire company...a complete nightmare. I hardly doubt he will be held less responsible for his acts because of his age.

I will probably get flamed for this comparison, but I am amazed at what even children and teenagers are capable of somedays...whether there was intent involved or not.

Quote: "It's very easy to say mean or hurtful things when you don't have to stand in front of someone and look into their eyes to say it..."

I think that the majority of the members of this board would be able to say what they've posted to MJ's face. I know I would.

LAZ
Oct. 24, 2001, 12:53 PM
Well, some of these posts have been downright mean and venomous. And I don't believe that most people can stand and say those things to someones face. It brings to mind sneaky terrorist attacks, and I want no part of it.

No one is infalliable; no one has perfect judgement; I believe from what I have read of this girls history that she desperately wants to fit in somewhere and can't find that place. I believe that she loved her horse and just didn't make good decisions. She is not alone in the world in that respect.

I'd hate to hear that this girl killed herself over guilt from her horse, and I'd hate to think a bunch of people with the ability to type faster than they think contributed to such a thing!

The horse is dead. Let's have a little compassion for the living and try to do our own part to prevent it from happening to another horse/person/dog/cat rather than do any more browbeating.

[This message was edited by LAZ on Oct. 24, 2001 at 03:15 PM.]

gwen
Oct. 24, 2001, 12:57 PM
Oh goodness!!! Sounds like you are having a bad week too!! I hope everything worked out ok and that you are safe!!!!!! It is so true..teenagers now a days know alot more than I did at that age!

Barb /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Everythingbutwings
Oct. 24, 2001, 01:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> That must make you proud <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I sure wouldn't be proud but I would have no problem telling her how I feel to her face either. That goes for her parents as well. I will add in that I would have no problem reporting them to the appropriate authorities, too. I would do the same if it were a dog, cat or child that suffered this way and there was something that I could do.

LAZ - thank you for your editing. I agree that no amount of bitterness will change events gone by. I would feel terrible if this became more tragic and hope that the parents have wised up and that M_J is able to improve her life from here on.

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Oct. 24, 2001 at 03:49 PM.]

Miniwelsh
Oct. 24, 2001, 01:19 PM
Thank you ETBW. I think each and every one of us feels a little responsible for this. It isn't about making a child feel bad anymore. I hope that anyone who thinks charges should not be brought on this issue changes their minds.

As a person who does not have a problem with putting a horse down as an alternative to shipping it off to be slaughtered if its maintenance becomes too expensive (if you cannot find a suitable home where it will be used)I think this situation was deplorable. Suffering should never come into play.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

LAZ
Oct. 24, 2001, 01:19 PM
ETBW

I shouldn't have posted that & I edited it out....I was out of line.

LAZ
Oct. 24, 2001, 01:32 PM
My point(s) on this thing is this--

1. We should do our best to help educate/manage people so this sort of thing does not happen.

2. That means we have to do it in our own backyards. The cyber world is too big to help horses such as Seger. It is too diffuse to help people such as M-J. We do not know each other in person, most of us. A faceless person in in one location cannot physically manage someone they've never met/seen/know in another location.

3. If you all feel this strongly about this, (and I've already suggested this, as have several other posters) get involved in a rescue, a humane society, a child abuse hotline, a suicide hotline, something productive. I've worked on two of those, and it is eye opening.

4. Be sure you'd want to say whatever you say in print in person. I've embarrassed myself with a mean comment today & had to take it back. It didn't taste nearly so good swallowing it... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Canter
Oct. 24, 2001, 01:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:

As for what we should do in the future? I can only suggest (as I have learned through my private conversations with other BBers) that we should stop holding back when we see red flags. A lot of people (myself included) read the warning signs in her post's and yet failed to make a more compelling plea to her or take any action on the horse's behalf. I certainly admire those who took a hard line with her about getting appropriate care for Cherry Upper, and I can only feel ashamed that I didn't do more myself.

=^+^=<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is certainly difficult, if not impossible to seperate the virtual world from the real one. Discussion boards give us a glimpse into someone's life, providing the information being shared is true and honest. I agree that we may benefit from taking what is typed here seriously. But just as importantly to me, it is seeing us all take a moment for those "real" people and animals amongst us who may also be in need of help. I don';t doubt that M_J and poor Seger were real, but a part of me finds this whole thing terribly unreal. You know?

KellyS
Oct. 24, 2001, 01:35 PM
ETBW - thank you.

LAZ - I have always been ready to say what I believe. In fact, I have quite the reputation for calling things exactly how they are. Anything I post on this board, I would address in person. My location is listed and many people know me by my full name.

This is just me....not something I gain pride from.

As to the call to become involved in the rescue of animals - how do you know that many of us are not already involved? Why do you think I am so frustrated in this situation? Because it is one rescue situation which was completely out of my control. Normally, I would be out there fighting for this horse's life, but I couldn't do anything this time. I have seen many horses suffer, I will do anything to stop it.

Kelly McAndrew

Nirvana
Oct. 24, 2001, 01:37 PM
Touche- I just read your post....this thread has sure gotten huge since I last looked here. I am so sorry you had to see your gift to MJ turn out like that. It must have made you sick....I know it makes me sick, and I'm hundreds of miles away, and didn't actually see the horse.
That said, I think this whole situation should be a lesson to all of us on the BB- no matter how much you care or how hard you try, someone else's horse is ultimately that- someone else's horse. As my dad once told me when I was very young and crying over an obviously starved horse in a field, "You can't save them all." It is tragic and sad, especially when it is briught to the forefront of a community dedicated to horse care, but never forget that as we are crying over Seger, some other nameless horse is most likely suffering a similar fate.
I applaud all of you who offered MJ blankets and vet care...you are all a wonderful community, and I am proud to belong to such a great group. It is saddening and sickening to think of one of our own being so negligent that a horse died because of it. Still, what we have to remember is that although this is a largely online community- most of us will never meet- we are still a community of horse-lovers who have joined this BB in hopes of furthering our knowledge about horses. I think that in the end, Seger's death, while tragic and terrible, was not totally in vain because we as an equestrian community have all learned some valuable lessons from it. This isn't to say that Seger needed to die for us to learn, I'm just trying to say that if we can learn, and if MJ can learn, we can reduce the possibility of this ever happening again.
Personally, the one thing I have learned is how much events happening across the country can affect not only myself but also numerous other people. It truly is a small world, made even smaller by the internet.
In the end, no matter how much we flame MJ and tell her to get counseling, the decision to change is entirely in her hands. An alcoholic cannot become sober until he admits he has a problem. Likewise, MJ cannot change until she admits she had a problem caring for her horse. That is something that none of us can do for her. All we can do now is support her in her efforts to become a more careful, conscientious horse owner like we did when she asked us for help with Seger. We are all used to rising to the occasion to help a horse in need. We need the same attitude now to help a fellow human.
MJ, if you are lurking, please know that I don't hate you; I pity you. I know what it is like to want a horse of my own more than anything in the world. I also know what it's like to look at a horse and realize that there are things about him that I have yet to learn. Learning something from your mistakes isn't a sign of weakness, it's a sign of maturity.

Natalie
Oct. 24, 2001, 01:52 PM
because of all the wonderful, helpful, knowledgable people on here. You guys are awesome. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Now I know everything's probably been said, but I can't help it...I have to add my 2 cents.

I'M a 16 year old girl...the same age as M_J. I DO believe that this is old enough to assume responsibility for a horse. I don't own a horse, but I beleive I could care for one. I don't mean to say that I'm knowledgable enough to care for it alone, but I do think that I have enough knowledge to provide basic care AND to know when outside help is needed (like a vet or a trainer). M_J SHOULD have known this.

I always did think that it was a bit worrisome that M_J kept horses at her house with no parental support and no trainer, farrier, or vet. However, what could I do? I didn't want to be the sour grapes butting in.

I feel sorry for M_J...she seems to be a bit of an outsider. I do put blame on her parents; they should have come in with money when it was needed, gotten their child lessons so she could learn how to ride correctly, and called a vet WILLINGLY long before Seger, or Cherry Upper, came to the state he was in when he died.

Thank you, Touche, for telling us what really happened. I thought the horses's death was fishy as well. I hope that M_J wakes up to see reality...horses are living creatures that deserve basic care and good health.

I feel horribly sorry for the horse.....and the girl. But please remember....Seger's death was probably still more peaceful than that of a horse who is unfortuneate enough to meet his end in a slaughter house. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

"Throw your heart over the fence and your horse will follow."

JustJump
Oct. 24, 2001, 01:55 PM
good posts--good points.

Laz--you have voiced my greatest fear--none of us would like to hear of that, and I fail to see why some are so willing to keep at it when it is obvious that:

-this PARTICULAR 16yo girs certainly has many "issues" that prevented her from seeing what was happening or doing anything about it. This PARTICULAR child was in over her head in a situation that many others her age could have handled.

-this PARTICULAR family is so dysfunctional that something so serious hadn't enough priority for them to do anything about it.

-this PARTICULAR horse, is only one of many suffering creatures in this world full of injustice, cruelty, poverty and many other inexplicable bad things. Suffering is all around us, and there are many who suffer silently without asking for help, others who ask and for some reason can't act on the advice they get...for instance, battered women who constantly receive good advice to get out, but instead end up as murder victims because they can't act. Sometimes it takes a powerful intervention to make a difference; such an intervention was not forthcoming in this case.

--Sometimes the people in closest proximity are the LAST to realize that a facade was completely false.

--Many of us had a bad feeling about this all along, particularly those of us who followed most of MJ's posts...but realistically, there was nothing any of us could do, other than supply the child with good advice. Too bad no one closer to the situation saw the posts / got that same bad feeling / checked on the situation till it was too late.

lauriep
Oct. 24, 2001, 02:37 PM
did not ring true to me from the beginning, and I'm sorry, I think that much of her posting was to get attention/pity, and I feel uncomfortable with the amount of truth in them. Because of that, I am unwilling to blame the parents too much, as my gut feeling is that the relationship she portrayed may have been more fabrication on her part to further her objectives in posting. It is also possible that her folks just didn't know enough to know when a horse is in trouble, and trusted their daughter to make the correct decisions. I would need to hear from someone close to the situation that it is as she stated. Touche, thanks for clarifying the facts relating to Seger's death, it was very helpful.

A sixteen year old is quite capable of realizing when they are in trouble and ask for and accept help, which was offered in great quantities here. My feeling is that pride, and wanting the spotlight to shine a little longer on her, were somehow behind this. After all, we now know that she had at least one person close by that she could have called and didn't. Her other interests were not put on hold to find a solution to this problem, so accepting her story that she did all she could doesn't cut it with me.

We can't forget that, as fun and helpful as these BBs can be, we can never be certain of who a person really is, and how much truth there is to a story, unless it can be verified by others in real time. I firmly believe this is one of those cases.

JMHO...

Laurie

Miniwelsh
Oct. 24, 2001, 02:46 PM
good post and I would just like to extend my apologies to anyone who posted in the past few days who I accused of being too hard on MJ. While I still don't think some of the comments were helpful, I understand the pain and anger felt by the posters. I am glad that you, unlike me, were not blind to the BS and had the guts to call her on it. My father didn't call me the champion of the underdog for nothing I guess. Feeling a little less naive today and again, I apologize.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

PMJ
Oct. 24, 2001, 02:53 PM
I think what bothers me at this point is the fact that MJ was involved in Pony Club at a point and evidently did well at know down. Even if the PC was a small one, and she did not like them, had she need the help as she evidently did, there was help to be found. I made some comments about not blaming the vet, and now I have to wonder when the initial vet visit was made because from what I have read it seems like feet were dragged when it came to getting an appointment. One thing that does bother me is the fact that there is always an excuse--from a vet not being good enough to exaustion. So sad /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

ClipClop
Oct. 24, 2001, 02:53 PM
Well I just feel like a big stupid head. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
Apologies are extended to all whom my previous post was directed to.

I went and thanked my parent's today after reading this thread with a big hug for supporting my hobby with a big hug and a sincere thank you.

~Insanity is repeating the same behavior over and over and expecting different results~

ErinB
Oct. 24, 2001, 02:59 PM
I wasn't going to reply to this subject, but now that the can's been opened and the worms are everywhere (so to speak), I'll post just once more. There's nothing more, IMHO, to say about the way this poor animal died. It's shocking, sickening, horrifying, and the mental picture brings tears to my eyes. I can't even imagine being there personally.

Those of you defending her, and telling everyone to leave well enough alone, I must ask- what do you expect?! This is a board full of horse lovers and to find out that this horse died an agonizing and completely preventable death is outrageous. It's the same response you'd expect if it was about child abuse. Both children and horses trust people to care for them, and breaking that trust is just unnacceptable. If the horse (or child!) dies as a result, it's just... I hate to use this word, but unforgivable.

Moreso, I feel a little bit hurt by this whole thing. I've been nothing but supportive of Tiffany through the whole ordeal. I've IM'ed her, posted many times on the board, I've joined her in her rantings about her parents and I've offered advice. I fully believed every word she said because, I suppose, I'm used to everyone being completely open and truthful on these boards. To the point of believing every word. I can honestly say that every letter of every post I've typed on COTH- at least involving important situations- have been entirely truthful. So, I expect the same of everyone else. Suddenly that innocent trustworthy quality about this place is gone and along with everything else, I feel sort of betrayed. And even worse, I sat around giving pity while Seger was deteriorating. I know there's nothing that I can do about it, but it's awful just the same.

I do, however, hope that Tiffany gets the help she needs. Whatever kind of "help" it may be, the one thing I can't believe is that ANYONE who is even halfway a horse lover would sit around and let one die the way poor Seger did.
At least, that's what I hope.

Erin
*~Stressed is Desserts written backwards....Concidence? I think not!*~

Heidi
Oct. 24, 2001, 03:57 PM
The last thing I'd want as a result of this tragedy is for the two of you to become cynical skeptics. It's your respective ability to approach others with kindness and compassion which makes this board such a delight.

It's understandable that the two of you would feel betrayed and disappointed but don't let this undermine who and how you are. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bumpkin
Oct. 24, 2001, 04:06 PM
I am totally in agreement with you. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif