So sorry, Musical Jumper....

[Canter]

Moi aussi, mon ami! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Nirvana]

I, too, have IM'd Tiffany and been supportive of her struggles. The night Seger was put down, I talked to her online and tried to console her about it. When I asked what happened, she told me that she would "spare me the gruesome details," which rang some alert bells in my head, but, out of compassion to her on the night her horse died, I didn't press her. Every time I have spoken to her, she seems to be a horse lover in every sense of the word. I never would have suspected someone who seemed to possess so much knowledge and love of horses to be capable of letting one suffer like Seger did. It turns my stomach and is a brutal, in-your-face reminder that not everyone is always truthful online. Like Erin, I have never lied about anything serious on this board (Jokes are of another nature of course)- the thought has never crossed my mind. After all, all we may see on our screens are different, sometimes silly, screen names, but each and every screen name represents a real person. When people use the ambiguous nature of the internet abusively, it makes the whole community suspicious and more leery of getting involved. I hope this situation hasn't affected all of us on the COTH BB that we can no longer trust each other and get involved in each other's questions and concerns. That is, after all, the best thing about this board- everyone's willingness to help a face he or she has never seen, to lend an ear to a person they have never met.

[Canter]

I'm curious, has anyone read M_J's tribute to Seger on her site?

[Hattie]

that some of our juniors are more mature than several of the posting adults. Excellent reflective post ErinB - and very mature of Clipclop to apologize. When I read posts such as these, my spirits are lifted. Heidi is correct - please don't become cynical at such a young age, but be aware that deception is easy in cyberspace.

[Seven]

I saw it... while it was a work in progress and then a few days later when it was complete. I haven't been able to look at it since because it makes me angry.

Has it been changed?

=^+^=

[AAJumper]

Canter, I read it just now. It doesn't change my feelings at all.

[Seven]

I can only second what Heidi said.

We all can understand how you feel as we all feel sickened, angry, and betrayed...but also I know it's been particularly hard for you since you were the ones defending her actions. Please don't let it all change how you feel and participate - I, among many others, enjoy your contributions to these boards.

=^+^=

[coco]

I question those who would defend the abuser...too close to blaming the victim.

All of us in the horse world have at one time or another come in contact with animal abusers of one degree or another. In my experience, the most severe abusers have one thing in common:

they were abused as children

And when you confront them, it's the first thing they themselves will tell you. And so will their defenders. Boo hoo. Their parents beat them as a child.

SO WHAT?!?!?!

Sorry. Son of Sam was abused as a child. So was Jeffrey Dalmer. So was the Boston Strangler. Probably Osama Bin Laden too. That's what he'll say when they catch him "I was abused as a child"

Boo hoo.

Sorry guys. It's not a defense in my books. The abused cannot "rightfully" become the abuser. And he or she can have no defense.

To get biblical, there is a passage that says "Call no man Father". In other words, you cannot blame your parents for your actions. And the death of Seger was the DIRECT action of M-J, no other. No excuses.

And no forgiveness without true repentance.

[In The Gate]

Don't worry ClipClop, I feel stupid too. I was hoping that none of this was true...

And I kept telling her how badly I felt because I'm 17, and I know how hurt I would be if my horse died...

Ahh, another lesson learned.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

[ErinB]

Thanks everyone. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Of course I won't let this keep me from trusting people (on COTH- or in real life for that matter). But I do think I'll be reading into the situation a lot more first. I only want to trust trustworthy people from now on.
Which, of course, would include just about everyone here!

To answer this question-
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I'm curious, has anyone read M_J's tribute to Seger on her site? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, I did. If the other side of this story is true, I find the "tribute" appalling. Absolutely appalling. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Erin
*~Stressed is Desserts written backwards....Concidence? I think not!*~

[Winglet]

I agree completely, being an abusee does NOT make you an abuser. Having no self control and no positive outlet for your frustrations makes you an abuser. There is never an excuse.

JoHn (WiNgLeT)

"No one teaches riding better than a horse."
-Lewis Carroll

Look at my ultra cool site!
www.geocities.com/winglet18 (http://www.geocities.com/winglet18)

[PMJ]

"I agree completely, being an abusee does NOT make you an abuser. Having no self control and no positive outlet for your frustrations makes you an abuser. There is never an excuse."


This statement is so true. Physical, emotional, or sexual abuse is no excuse. I have been there and I found solace in my animals. I just don't buy the cruel to animals because of abuse a valid reasoning. We are all responsible for our own actions and while that does not mean we do not make mistakes, being responsible means being able to admit we make them, reaching out for help, and learning from our errors.

[Heather]

Please, everyone take a breath, and note that there is a difference between not wanting to see the girl driven to suicide and defending or condoning her actions.

I would hate to see the board get divided over this incident, and I think people are turning on others not as ANGRY as they are.

Just because we aren't part of the lynch mob doesn't mean aren't sick in our hearts over this poor creature. Give us a little credit.

[Kcorseinop]

Maybe, instead of sitting here complaining about how she needs help, we should DO something to help her? Or atleast she pony she still owns...

[Kcorseinop]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heather:
Please, everyone take a breath, and note that there is a difference between not wanting to see the girl driven to suicide and defending or condoning her actions.

I would hate to see the board get divided over this incident, and I think people are turning on others not as ANGRY as they are.

Just because we aren't part of the lynch mob doesn't mean aren't sick in our hearts over this poor creature. Give us a little credit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thank you Heather!! This is what I have been trying to say all along! I have never said I agreed with what she did/didn't do, but nothing that has been said on this thread will help in any shape or form to bring back Seger. Tiffany is EXTREMELY upset, wether you want to believe it or not, and something like this could very easily drive a young girl to suicide. She needs help and WE need to help her get that help, not keep criticizing (sp?) her for something that can't be undone!

[JustJump]

Ditto, Heather.

[Palomino19]

Well almost a week after the fact I'm calm enough, and feel I have a sufficient number "facts" to reply. It's amazing how the feeling you get - that sharp punch in the stomach and dull ache in the chest - when you see an abused animal never goes aways or even lessens with frequency. Poor Cherry Upper's case is no exception.

Abuse or no abuse, there is no excuse ever to neglect any living thing. That's the great thing about humanity - we control our own destiny. Unfortunately Cherry Upper's was thoughtlessly thrown away. I have to agree with whoever mentioned being told "you can't save them all", but the thought that you should has never left the back of my mind. "If only"'s have a nasty way of replaying a thousand times. Maybe that's just my lingering naievety from only having 17 years of life experience to draw upon.

As I look at the college essay I'm supposed to be writing the quote seems fitting : Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it - George Santayana. So to all the other juniors who may be feeling a bit disenchanted take heart. The best legacy we can give Cherry Upper is to learn from this, remember this, remember Cherry Upper, and never be silent ever.

Jess

ps Kelly I'm glad to hear you two are ok /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif was your apartment damaged at all? hope your week gets better! if you need anything just call /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ErinB]

Somehow I doubt she's even here right now, so whether you want to kick her or kiss her doesn't make much of a difference.

Erin
*~Stressed is Desserts written backwards....Concidence? I think not!*~

[Small Change]

All I can say is that I spent an extra long time out in the pasture tonight; knocking apples down and just watching my horses... It makes me want to cry. Poor Cherry Upper... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I suppose though that we can take comfort in that he is better off now. I just worry about the pony, if MJ is this naive (or ignorant, however you chose to word it.)... Is there anyone who can check up on him? I know Touche said she'd called, but is there anyway someone can check in person?

The saddest thing is that even if a person can manage to take horses away from someone who is neglecting them, there is really not much to stop that person from just getting another... Like another poster mentioned with the lady and the JR's... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

A horse, a horse, of course, of course, unless he's worth a million and five.

[KellyS]

Thanks, Jess! Our place was okay, but we did have to wait awhile before we were allowed back in. The cat was very upset that dinner was served so late! What a scary experience to go through...this guy has always been a problem. However, I always thought he was going to beat the snot out of one of us, not blow the snot out of us (and the rest of the resients)! And believe me, we live in a very established community. I think A and I are the only ones under 30 besides this guy. Just goes to show you that it can happen anywhere.

Sorry to change the subject....

[Everythingbutwings]

Kcorseinop

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> something like this could very easily drive a young girl to suicide <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Statistics show that those at the most risk of suicide are NOT the ones who protest their worth to a crowd.

Obviously, M_J has difficulty with her own self worth. Proclaiming her efforts, knowledge and talents to all who would attempt to assist her when she posted her questions and difficulties set off the alert on many here and caused others, such as myself, to place ourselves in her supposed postition.

Your leap into the possibility of BB censure causing an unthinkable incident is just not justifiable. M_J brought this entire situation to us and onto herself by her self centered, semi-hysterical postings of the past several weeks.

I, like you, and many, am of the opinion that what is done is done. Shame on her, me, neighbors, parents, etc. I hope she, we, they, all learn a BIG lesson.

Poor Cherry Uppers. Poor breeder who had hoped for this young animal to have a long and happy life while giving a young girl the opportunity most horse loving kids dream of.


Do not turn this into a "blame the people who did their DAMNDEST to help M_J and the horse" scenario. Do not turn this into a "blame the person who stood up and told what really happened" for ANYTHING that M_J has go wrong with the rest of her life.

It is up to Musical Jumper to make restitution to herself, the people who believed in her (and I mean prior to her whining to us on the BB) and to the memory of that poor horse that never had an opportunity to achieve his potential, much less live a normal and healthy life.

The only thing that will make this tragedy better is for M_J to learn the very hard lesson, get her act together and to make each day from here on out better for having her doing her best with herself and the opportunities that life has blessed her with.

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Oct. 24, 2001 at 08:59 PM.]

[Bertie]

I've agonized over this all day. Reading Touche's post brought tears to my eyes at work, and I want to thank her for telling the story. I've been going over in my mind the inconsistancies, the red flags that didn't sit right ever since the "dreaded conversation" thread.

Now there is another inconsistancy that I want to mention, as I sense that many of us are beating ourselves up thinking that if only we had done something, the horse would have been saved. I want to say that there may have been nothing that could have saved him. I say this because it seems too short a time frame for all this to have happened.

Touche' saw him in August and mentioned the lush pasture. In the two months since, he became emaciated to the point of not being able to get up. Maybe he couldn't get up because maybe he was cast and had exhausted himself. But maybe he was suffering from a terminal disease that caused the severe weight loss and weakness.

Two months seems too short a timeframe for an otherwise healthy horse to have wasted away so completely, assuming he was getting at least some feed and water. Severe weight loss can be a symptom of a number of terrible diseases, many of which have no treatment options. Many years ago I watched helplessly as my jumper wasted away until euthanasia was our only option. All the vets could not save him. Tests showed nothing. But an autopsy showed massive untreatable cancer.

So while perhaps this could have been prevented, and should definitely have been handled differently, it is also possible that there was nothing anyone could have done to save Seger.

"Always speak your mind, but ride a fast horse" -- Texas Bix Bender

[Natty Dread]

ETBW..........You Go Girl!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[vineyridge]

Horse suffered from inoperable chronic peritonitis with a huge abscess that would come and go. She lost weight, but was still eating.

It wasn't until she showed signs of colic for the first time that we had the vet out. She went to an equine vet who found a mass, but could do nothing, and then to the state vet school. That same night the vet school recommended putting her down based on the mass found by the ultrasound. At the time her bloodwork wasn't really so very bad. She was at a respected professional trainer's, getting good care when she finally showed signs of colic.

The state vet school said that nothing would have likely showed on normal vet work, except a mild infection. The severity of her illness would have showed up on a belly tap, but who does belly taps on apparently healthy horses?

By the time she died, she was in pretty poor shape, but that had happened in only a couple of days. About half of her gut was dead, and the abscess had grown around part of her liver and the portal vein.

Sometimes when you see a horse every day, you don't realize how much weight they are losing.

I have been thinking about this and about my experience. We may be too hasty in our condemnation.

[Kryswyn]

That's the mental illness where the caretaker (usually a woman) harms a child (often her own) DELIBERATELY to recieve sympathy, support and attention. Sometimes it is deliberate starvation, or mild poisoning, or unnecessary enemas. Often it is suffocation. Remember Crib Death (aka SIDS)? The first, important medical paper on SIDS was based primarily on the case history of a woman whose 5 (or 6 - can't remember)kids had ALL SUPPOSEDLY DIED OF SIDS. After the recognition of Munchausen's by Proxy, that woman's case was revisited. All the bodies were exhumed; they were able to prove MURDER in several of them! 25 years after the fact she admitted to killing all but the first one. That one she maintained she found dead in the crib. The sympathy and attention she recieved in the wake of the toddlers death were peculiarly attractive to her, and when she got depressed and felt ignored, she killed the second child and got an emotional 'fix'

Wow! Doesn't this sound somehow... familiar???

I'm not saying M-J has MBP, but I will say that all the folks who suggested counselling have the right idea.

MBP is fascinating. The woman above continued on for years. She even continued to get pregnant (for sympathy) so that she could eventually murder the child (BIG SYMPATHY!). They have caught parents on tape in HOSPITALS trying to administer more poison or alter the child's meds in order to keep the doctors guessing and keep the sympathy flowing. I've even seen one tape where after checking around, the mother calmly takes a pillow from the empty bed and tries to smother the child. The videotographer alerted a nurse who raced in. The mother heard the racing footsteps, whipped the pillow back on the other bed and by the time the nurse ran in, the mother was sobbing hysterically, "he's not breathing! Do something! He's not breathing!"

Just amazing. Amazingly tragic that is.

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Everythingbutwings]

Touche' mentioned seeing him when he was moved to M_J's home, which had lush pasture at the time (we do not know how big or what type of grass but that is rather a non issue) but she related it to a specific time, when M_J had the picture of her in a dress taken for her website.

That picture, viewed by many of us, shows an already thin young horse. I didn't think about that when I first saw the photo, until now, as a reference as to when the poor horse was totally in the care of only M_J. She received the horse at the end of last year. It has been 10 months or so that Cherry Uppers has been her responsiblity.

Imagine how quickly that horse would deteriorate from that photo in August given once per day (if that) feedings which M_J has already told us contained no grain. I have no idea if the pasture held up, whether or not the precipitation in the area was average for the area. What I do know is that my own young thoroughbreds would not maintain their proper weight/growth without additional nutrition provided beyond the grass in the field. None of us can do more than speculate if the horse was wormed (my own in the same time frame were wormed 4 times with Quest, Ivermectin, Safe-Guard and Quest)

As a suppostion as to how the horse could deteriorate so quickly, lack of basic maintenance care for months, combined with let down from the rigors of the track (along with change from the high calorie diet and routine exercise) perhaps throw in ulcers, would support how bad he got but none of these should have been the end of his life. It took a combination that only complete lack of attention to his condition to bring this sad tragedy about.

Our old facility had a good sized pasture and I had no need to provide hay during the summer months for my TB's but still had to feed a large quantity of grain twice per day. The barn we now occupy has no viable pasture and I feed my two growing Tb's and one pony a bale and a half per day of an orchard grass/clover/alfalfa hay mix (70lbs per bale) along with grain twice per day.

My horses are NOT fat. Showing my Maddie on the line this summer was a balancing act between what I was willing to do to have her competitive compared with OVERFEEDING a growing young horse.

I know from my own experience, which I repeatedly mentioned when M_J posted her worry over her horses lack of weight, just what it takes to keep a young TB fit.

She did not provide basic care.

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Oct. 24, 2001 at 10:02 PM.]

[Blue Devil]

I took a law and psychology class at a college this past summer (I'm a senior in HS). Munchausen's by Proxy was the first thing I immediately thought of in this situation once I heard that M_J had won a "pony club knowdown." At first I thought that maybe she was just equine-ignorant or uneducated...but the facts disprove this.

How interesting we both came up with a similar thought/question....

**~~Emily~~** proud
member of the junior clique!
Emily@catchride.com

[wanderlust]

I began reading these threads a couple of days ago, after I had posted in reply to one of MJ's posts about draw reins on the dressage board. I am not *too* far removed from my own teenage angst (I'm 24), and I spent summers during college (and after, until I found a "real" job) teaching and coaching a great bunch of pony club kids. Several of them were working students for us, with responsibility for some very expensive (and often very difficult) event horses. I can assure you that each and every last one of them over the age of 13 knew when they were in over their heads. They knew when it was appropriate to seek out help, be it from myself, my trainer or a phone call to the vet's office. These "kids" were our lifeline around the farm and at events, worked their butts off, rarely complained and rose to the occasion every time. That being said, I don't think being a teenager is in any way, shape or form a legitimate excuse for neglect.

What truly appalled me was the resentfulness that MJ exhibited towards Seger as the reason she couldn't go "clubbing" or out with her boyfriend or drink or do this or that or the other thing with her friends. I'm sorry, I have no sympathy. While the upkeep of my horses was financially supported by my parents (when I was a teenager) I busted my butt as a working student in exchange for a couple of flat and jumping lessons each week. I braided and groomed for the cash to compete. I rode my horses 6 days a week. I was completely responsible for their care, as they lived on our property. I almost never went out and my social life consisted of hanging out cleaning tack with a couple of other kids at the barn. I had no problem with that. My horses were my life.

The greenie I own now is the most important thing in my life. Everything else I do comes second to his well-being (with the exception of my job, which is what pays for his very large board, vet, shoe, chiro, etc, bills). It is an absolute privilege to own one of these animals, and an even greater privilege to have them trust you entirely for their well-being. If you feel as if they are a burden, you SHOULD NOT own one. Nevermind two. If you can't afford for routine veterinary maintenance care, you shouldn't own one. If you can't afford emergency care (because if an emergency hasn't arisen yet, trust me, it will), you shouldn't own one. If you can't put your animal's well-being before your own creature comforts (i.e. concert tickets, western saddle, etc), you shouldn't own one. This applies whether you are 16 or 60.

MJ- if you are reading this, I am so sorry that this lesson had to come at the expense of a lovely animal. You seem like a very confused, misguided and angry young woman, and it is not your fault that you feel this way. I urge you to seek the help of a qualified professional in coping with this tragedy and getting your life in order.

[jetsmom]

This whole episode is so tragic.

Touche- Do you know if anyone has personally talked to MJ's parents about what happened, and showed them her posts on this BB? I am being optomistic in thinking that they truly didn't know what a starving horse looked like, and that MJ didn't tell them. I think this is very important that they be fully aware of the situation. MJ definitely needs psychological help. Also, that pony should be elsewhere, given her history of neglect (intentional or not). MJ's posts seem to reveal a deep desire to get attention, be liked, and avoid reality. I'm not a psychiatrist, but I really think she needs help.
Her posts need to be read by her parents. If they don't seem overly concerned, I'd be running to the city attourney's office to file charges of animal abuse/neglect. I'd rather see MJ get help than be prosecuted, since I don't think that she would be held accountable, and her parents would.
If her parents are so off in "la-la" land that they don't see a problem with the whole situation, then they probably should be prosecuted, just to wake them up to the responsibilities of being a parent and accepting responsibility for what goes on under their roof.
I am not absolving MJ of responsibility, but believe no one in their right mind could do what she did concerning this whole thing.

[Blue Devil]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by master_tally:
It is an absolute privilege to own one of these animals, and an even greater privilege to have them trust you entirely for their well-being. If you feel as if they are a burden, you SHOULD NOT own one. Nevermind two. If you can't afford for routine veterinary maintenance care, you shouldn't own one. If you can't afford emergency care (because if an emergency hasn't arisen yet, trust me, it will), you shouldn't own one. If you can't put your animal's well-being before your own creature comforts (i.e. concert tickets, western saddle, etc), you shouldn't own one. This applies whether you are 16 or 60.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Extremely well said.

**~~Emily~~** proud
member of the junior clique!
Emily@catchride.com

[Blue Devil]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jetsmom:
This whole episode is so tragic.
I am not absolving MJ of responsibility, but believe no one in their right mind could do what she did concerning this whole thing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jetsmom, I think you hit the nail on the head. As Touche informed us (and the most shocking/hurting fact to arise about M_J in these posts), M_J won a equine knowdown sponsored by the Pony Club on questions I'm assuming dealt with at least some healthcare issues. She KNEW information. This is not an example of someone truly oblivious and unknowledgeable about horses where they would be blantantly confused about the situation.

This is definitely a case of someone in need of help and the effects of her mental state are far-reaching, in such a tragic way.

**~~Emily~~** proud
member of the junior clique!
Emily@catchride.com

[Kcorseinop]

Was that post geared towards me? Do you guys even realize that I, too, am 16 and I can assure you that, with the crap we go through as teenagers, something like that would drive me to kill myself. And no, I am not joking. Kill myself may be pusing it- but you can't push teenagers. You're a mom, you should know that. They take everything seriously. Atleast I do, so I was talking in general terms re: the suicide post. That's why I changed my name- so everyone WOULDN'T know who I was and WOULDN'T judge the contents of my posts based on my age, because we all know it happens. And it sucks.

[Erin]

Okay folks, I'm not comfortable with some of the things being tossed around here. This thread needs to get away from hypotheses and supposition NOW.

Remember, all that is known is what has been posted on the BB. Please restrict your posts to discussion of that.

[Winglet]

yes, she IS a mother... MY mother... and believe me, she knows VERY well what it's like to live with a teenager, ESPECIALLY a troubled and depressed one. Please don't question her parenting knowledge, as you have no idea what it's like to BE a parent. You only know what is seen (by MOST teenagers, not just you) as "the dictatorship of Mom and Dad" the ones who don't understand you and never could. Your parents weren't always the way they seem to be, they got that way from cleaning YOUR diapers, Paying YOUR bills and watching you grow ever less "tolerant" of them for it. But I bet they STILL wouldn't trade you for anything in the world.

JoHn (WiNgLeT)

"No one teaches riding better than a horse."
-Lewis Carroll

Look at my ultra cool site!
www.geocities.com/winglet18 (http://www.geocities.com/winglet18)

[lilblackhorse]

that those of us who are adults REMEMBER what it was like to be 16...all the crap that you all go thru is the same stuff we all had to wade through too. When I was 16 I was riding Training level, schooling Prelim, maintaining a 4 point avg and being a working student and going for my B rating in Pony Club. Age has nothing to do with being able to be a responsible pet owner, or even being mature enough to handle responsibility or to admit when one is in over their head. Grownups have lots of stuff on their plates too. Sometimes life can get too hard for all of us, but we need to never neglect our responsibilities-animals depend on us. We can't let them down.

"Wherever you go-there you are!"

[ErinB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Was that post geared towards me? Do you guys even realize that I, too, am 16 and I can assure you that, with the crap we go through as teenagers, something like that would drive me to kill myself. And no, I am not joking. Kill myself may be pusing it- but you can't push teenagers. You're a mom, you should know that. They take everything seriously. Atleast I do, so I was talking in general terms re: the suicide post. That's why I changed my name- so everyone WOULDN'T know who I was and WOULDN'T judge the contents of my posts based on my age, because we all know it happens. And it sucks.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, okay. So you're saying that she took advantage of people showing an unbelievable amount of compassion and concern, lied and lied again about the condition of her horse, watched the poor horse DIE and yet she still lied, claiming that he was humanely put down, he's up in horsey heaven and that's the end of the story. Even when everything was revealed she STILL denied it, and while there might be some underlying phsycological issues to be addressed, the fact is she's proved herself to be untrustworthy, irresponsible and selfish, and all this at the cost of her horse.

Yet she still deserves our pity and our sympathy? Recall if you will that people were offering her blankets for her horse free of charge, offering their advice and their concern and I have no doubt probably e-mailing her with their condolences when Seger died. Actually, that's why this thread was started! But though I'm concerned about Tiffany, I'm not going to pity her any longer. When a horse dies of neglect, the last thing I feel is sympathy and pity for the person responsible, regardless of her age.

I'm 16. Duh life sucks when you're 16. It sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks. I admit it. It sucks it sucks it sucks. But the thing that would push me to suicide would be the guilt I would feel if this happened to my horse (which it wouldn't). Tiffany apparently does not feel guilty, at least she hasn't shown it on the board.

If a bunch of cyber people whom you'll never meet can push you to suicide, goodness how would you react if your horse colicked? You know, stuff in real life? I may be a little crazy, but I'm not insane! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Erin
*~Stressed is Desserts written backwards....Concidence? I think not!*~

[Tap2Tango]

I know most people here are concerned for the welfare of EVERY SINGLE horse mentioned on this board.
I am NOT taking sides here, so I will give you my opinion on both parts.
Having a horse is a huge responsibility that I'm surprised she didn't learn in PC.(Didn't someone mention she was in that?) That is the one thing I really got out of PC. It sounds like she had a lot of people trying to help her(Touche, especially). So if she got lazy....bored sick of Seger....we just don't know.
Growing up now IS VERY HARD. A LOT harder for some than others. We do not know a lot of background on M_J, so there could be some reason for this, but like I stated above...we just don't know. I have had a rough childhood and now at the ripe ol'age of 16 I am in heavy counseling. I have been diagnosed with ADHD and Depression. Some days I will be happy as a clam, but others I will have a huge anxiety attack where nothing seems right, I can't trust anyone and I just completely freak out and shut down...a lot of the time for no reason. I take different medicines to try to help me, but they don't work all that great. Sometimes they actually make me worse. Since I'm a teenager, I so enjoy going out on the weekends partying and doing some drinking....It took me like 9 months to realize that I can't drink with these pills....even though my therapists told me not to, I just thought it was to keep underage drinking down...No, its because the two substances have such a bad reaction that I have almost died before! And it took me about 3 or 4 times of blacking out, throwing up for hours on end and then waking up and not remembering a damn thing...Scary Sh!t I tell you...
So a lot of you are probably confused why I just gave you a real personal summary of my life, I'm not exactly sure either, but I felt that I had to make a point...Everyone has something about them that they don't want everyone else to know. Maybe there is something about M_J that caused this whole situation, but she just can't say what. It's frustrating to us because we are just such a loving bunch we DO like to help each other. But at the same time, its frustrating to M_J also because she wants help, but she doesn't exactly know how to ask it or shes scared.
We all have lives outside of this board(With the exception of maybe ErinB, Colin, and VTrider....but thats another issue.... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) I think people should try to focus on something else instead of this.
The reason Erin has these wonderful boards for us to use is so we can help one another, not try to murder each other! So how about me drop this topic now?? M_J has expressed how she feels and that she has left the COTH, so there is no reason to drag this on! I know we are all sick of Ryans bridle threads and the endless Approved vs. Unaproved topics. Let's put this one in the pot too!! Bury it for good!
***The past is over so let us look towards the future, for it is the only way to go, forward and not back***

Ok, I'm going to jump in to my flame suit and cuddle up in my fire blanket....
Have a great night!
~Steph
/infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

What does it take to be #1? 2 is not a winner and 3 nobody remembers!
~Nelly

[ErinB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We all have lives outside of this board(With the exception of maybe ErinB, Colin, and VTrider....but thats another issue.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have an outside life, thank you very much. And I happen to like this one better!
Maybe I'm just being overly sensitive but I don't think this even compares to the bridle threads and helmet threads. These people aren't annoyed, they're shocked. Big difference.

But M_J supposedly isn't even here anymore, so whatever is said probably isn't affecting her one way or the other.

Erin
*~Stressed is Desserts written backwards....Concidence? I think not!*~

[Zimt]

1) Remind self daily that living in America or other first world country is a privilege, and that as long as one can afford food and healthcare and a good education and a goddamn HORSE to goof about on one isn't doing to badly.

2) Remind self daily complaining about parents who are annoying and friends who are mean and not enough $$ for a new saddle is pretty weak compared to living in proverty in a third world country.

3) Remind self daily to stop whining. It's not cute.

4) Remind self daily that the difference between a child and an adult is that an adult knows the value of life, the cost of life, and the meaning of living. A child just lives.

5) Remind self daily that if one can take responsibility for a living thing, one had better grow up fast.

5) If above doesn't work, call 1.800.WAAH! and let me know what they say.

I posted that on my fridge for about 30 years. I'm finally getting it. Less chat, more action.

[Kcorseinop]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:

I'm 16. Duh life sucks when you're 16. It sucks it sucks it sucks it sucks. I admit it. It sucks it sucks it sucks. But the thing that would push me to suicide would be the guilt I would feel if this happened to my horse (which it wouldn't). Tiffany apparently does not feel guilty, at least she hasn't shown it on the board.

If a bunch of cyber people whom you'll never meet can push you to suicide, goodness how would you react if your horse colicked? You know, stuff in real life? I may be a little crazy, but I'm not insane! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks for calling me insane. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Have I not said a MILLION times I don't agree with what she did, and that helping her would be more productive that sitting here SAYING she needs help? Yeah, i'm pretty sure I have. Thanks for not poining that out, though. Are you Tiffany? NO! So how on earth would you know if she feels guilty or not? Why the hell would she come back here? No matter what she says she will get pounced on. I don't blame her for never coming back! Now, as I said before, if you have something to say to me then e-mail me. I don't want to talk about it on here anymore!! It's not rocket science...

[In The Gate]

Oh, K- you have no e-mail address if anyone DID want to e-mail you.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

[ProzacPuppy]

I have started to write this many times today. The more I read all these posts regarding this tragedy, the more I keep thinking about comments that MJ made in her recent posts. This is a child who said she didn't want to cry in front of her parents. Her father made some comment about a bullet being cheaper than a vet to his daughter regarding her "sick" horse. Can you say "dysfunctional"?

I also keep thinking about a quote - paraphrased " You will forever be responsible for that which you have tamed". She let down that poor animal when he needed her most.

The whole situation is so incredibly sad.....

I am glad to be able to hug my own horse while he frisks me for treats.

[Kcorseinop]

I posted it a few pages back
forever_young0204@hotmail.com

[Heidi]

Your post is outrageous and at the point that I think, 'ya know this day really can't get any worse', you prove me wrong.

How dare you make such a cruel and unjust accusation towards ETBW! If we can personify a BB conscience, ETBW is certainly one of them. Read through her posts about bottle-feeding the orphaned Maddie, or consider the time and effort that she devotes to feeding her BB family; search through her posts and the expressions of love and support that she so kindly bestows upon others. You owe ETBW an apology. /infopop/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

This issue, at a certain point, really isn't about MJ but about the collective posters on this BB who sacrifice their own comfort and needs for the benefit of their horses; the expressions of shock and outrage is an indication that there are many who regard their horses with as much unconditional love and dedication as they would their own child.

Being a teenager sucks, and so does adulthood, at times. Everyone suffers through stress, occasional depression; we all at times feel lost and wonder, 'just what the hell am I doing and what's it all about'? The hardships that we all confront at times in our lives suck; but LIFE, kindness, compassion, integrity, friendship, and dedication do not. Horses and their willingness to combat their instinctive needs to please us -- well that certainly doesn't suck; and in fact for many of us it's what gives us the strength and perspective to trudge through another seemingly horrible day, week, or month.

Winglet, egads, how much longer do I have to wait until my own children reach similar conclusions. You done your mother proud.

[In The Gate]

sorry, I wasn't planning on writing anyway, however other people may.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

[ErinB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thanks for calling me insane. I cannot tell you how much I appreciate that. Have I not said a MILLION times I don't agree with what she did, and that helping her would be more productive that sitting here SAYING she needs help? Yeah, i'm pretty sure I have. Thanks for not poining that out, though. Are you Tiffany? NO! So how on earth would you know if she feels guilty or not? Why the hell would she come back here? No matter what she says she will get pounced on. I don't blame her for never coming back! Now, as I said before, if you have something to say to me then e-mail me. I don't want to talk about it on here anymore!! It's not rocket science... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

For your information, I was not calling YOU in particular insane. But you were saying, basically, that all teenagers are crazy suicidal looneys that pull the trigger at the slightest provocation. I was saying that I am a teenager and I am not a nutball. In that sense, anyway.

There are only so many ways people can help someone that they have no way of contacting in person. We've offered support, pity, sympathy, everything but the clothes off our backs for this girl. I mean, what do you want me to do? Give her the number of a good phsychiatrist? Yeah, that should make her feel wonderful. Or perhaps I should send her my horse to replace the one she lost? Cookies? Candy? Apple pie?
I mean, what do you want us to do? I think everyone here has been helpful WAY, WAY above and beyond the call of duty. Tiffany was the one who decided to ignore all the very useful advice she had been given.

Erin
*~Stressed is Desserts written backwards....Concidence? I think not!*~

[Waterwatch]

Someone close this thread and put it out of it's misery. There just can't be anything more to be said.

[lilblackhorse]

totally agreed. I am very much a "cowboy up" kind of person. Everyone has their own crosses to bear, no matter how old. It's the grace that one has carrying those that wins in the end. Whining about being young (it sucks!Waah...)..well, let me whine at being older and being a parent...paying the bills, schlepping my kids all over for school and dance... Would I trade it? Not on your life...But like your post, the reality is that many of us need a reality check and need to realize just HOW DAMNED LUCKY WE ALL ARE....we are the lucky to be able to afford horses, not to mention put food on the table, go to school...or would we like to wear a bhurka and have no medicine, no school, no voice? When whining gets loud, remember to look at all those flags flying and put some stuff in perspective. Just a thought....
"life is what happens when you are busy making other plans"...john Lennon

"Wherever you go-there you are!"

[Kcorseinop]

I'm talking to Winglet right now, and I must have worded that post very badly because I DID NOT MEAN ANYTHING BAD TOWARDS ETBW!! I wasn't insulting her, I wasn't saying she is a bad mother, I wasn't implying ANYTHING only those lines. OMG....I give up. I came on trying to defend a friend and look at things from a different perspective and now people who I considered FRIENDS are turning their backs on me. If you guys would like I will go back and delete every post I ever wrote on this thread.

And ETBW, I am very sorry. I didn't mean anything bad towards you by that post at all. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Jo]

Waterwatch, agreed. I think this is where the "talk about the situation, not the person" rule might apply. Erin's a better judge of this, but there are far more constructive ways to discuss this situation. Other members have started topics on ways to help horses in similar situations, trying to keep an eye out for future situations, etc. Let the bickering members E-mail each other. I can't see how fighting is going to make anything better. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Winglet]

anything we say here now is just muttering and bickering amongst ourselves. We should probably all retire to our respective quarters and lick our emotional wounds instead of dragging those who have either decided to stay out of it or have finished already back into the thick of it. And boy, is it thick... I think we were all hurt and shocked by this, and we don't know how to react to someone hurting us and then being gone, so we do what we always do.... we post about it. I include many of you in my list of friends (which is not as extensive as I wish it were, but still....) and therefore I trust you with my feelings and, in some cases, my heart. But we need to move on, we've covered all we can for now.

JoHn (WiNgLeT)

"No one teaches riding better than a horse."
-Lewis Carroll

Look at my ultra cool site!
www.geocities.com/winglet18 (http://www.geocities.com/winglet18)

[tyedyecommando]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Waterwatch:
Someone close this thread and put it out of it's misery. There just can't be anything more to be said.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I personally think that if it were physically possible that one poster would reach through the screen and rip off a body part of someone else. I won't post on this because I want to keep my arms and legs.

This thread has definately morphed into the other thread that was previously closed. Erin, Portia, Weatherford, anyone please lock this madness.

[FatLilPony]

since I haven't spoken yet. which is-this makes me sick, absolutely sick. But it does remind us of reality' boundries.

I'm in envy, will you all please stop talking about how it's cold? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Seven]

Erin has before asked us not to "play moderator" for her, meaning that the moderators can be trusted to make the decisions on what threads should remain open, and I think that we should respect that.

Personally, I think that when BBer's are done expressing themselves and trying to understand the situation, then the thread will die on it's own as so many others have done. For example, consider, the "Bush Opens a Can of Whoop a$$" thread, which I personally couldn't take so I stopped reading at about page 8 or so. It continued on for something like 20 pages, but I didn't find the conversation helpful, so I didn't read it. For those who don't find this thread helpful, perhaps the answer is not to read it?

Now I have some questions about the situation.

Is anyone looking into the continued ownership of the pony? I know that the neighbors reported his condition to be good but has anyone asked whether she might not want to keep the pony any longer? I know she's probably pretty upset now (as she should be) and has a long road ahead of her, maybe she's not up for the added burden and reminders of pony care (particularly as winter approaches)? I would have asked this question privately but I'm not sure to whom it should be directed.

These thoughts lead me to the next question, which is, assuming MJ does NOT seek counseling (she has to want help as much as we want her to get it, and even in her last post, I didn't see any evidence of that), does anyone think that her future Ohio employer should be notified of this situation? I'm NOT asking this question to be mean, and I'm not sure I think it's anyone's place HERE to offer the new employer that information, but perhaps someone closer to the her (like her parents, if they see this thread) should maybe be forthcoming to this unsuspecting employer? I'll probably get flamed for this but it's just something that I thought might be worth considering.

=^+^=

[Jane]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kcorseinop:
Do you guys even realize that I, too, am 16 and I can assure you that, with the crap we go through as teenagers, something like that would drive me to kill myself. And no, I am not joking.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As my mother used to tell my 14 yar-old rebellious self, "don't tell me I don't know what it's like to be a teenager...I was one once!"

[This message was edited by Jane on Oct. 25, 2001 at 02:48 AM.]

[Jane]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Serendipity:

assuming MJ does NOT seek counseling (she has to want help as much as we want her to get
it, and even in her last post, I didn't see any evidence of that)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what I was thinking as I sat and read the posts from the last 24 hours....it's obvious
MJ needs help, but how do you help someone who doesn't want to be helped?

I share the same feelings and opinions many of you have expressed, in particular ETBW, heidi-ugh, AAJumper, and Natty. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Thank you, Touche, for your post.

ErinB and ClipClop: no need to feel silly for doing the right thing by offering support for a
friend, regardless of the outcome.

[AAJumper]

Did you read this thread?

M_J's post about parents trying to give the horse away (http://chronofhorse.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=691099205&f=1970907951&m=2453017113)

Just food for thought.

[Nirvana]

Did anyone read MJ's post about her parents wanting to give her horse away? Was I the only one who noticed this particular line:

"father wants to get rid of the horse b/c they say it is too stressing and they are tired of looking at him"

Perhaps they were tired of looking at an emanciated horse and wanted to do what was best for him. After all they considered giving him away while he was sick (starved); it sounds to me like despite the fact that they may not possess a lot of horse sense that they could recognize a problem when they saw one. After all, how much horse sense do you need to see a horse's ribs sticking out? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif This quote of her father being tired of looking at him could go 2 ways I guess....they were "tired of looking at him" in the metaphorical sense, meaning they were tired of having him on their property, or they were "tired of looking at him" literally...perhaps because the sight of her malnourished horse made her parents sick....if that's the case, I wish they would have just done it...and gotten her some counseling before the horse had to com to such a tragic end. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

But, I think the most ironic part of that post is MJ's statement about her horses being cared for during the summer by her parents...

"he [the pony] will actually survive the summer without me, seger could not"

That certainly does not seem to be the case....I wish those parents had actually gone through with it and given him to someone who could take care of him....hopefully they will realize their error with Seger and send the pony to a caring home asap. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[FatLilPony]

I thik the pony is at a friends house now? Isn't it? That's what I heard anyway. But then again, big scandal= big hearsay /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's ery tragic, and I hope MJ is thinking long and hard about this, I doubt she will get back into hrses. A part of me fels very bad for her, honestly, because she proably didn't know the extent of her actions. Heck, if I'd never done it before, I wouldn't know to the extet my horse could be malnourished and sta alive. She pobably didn't know the reprecusions of her actions. Of course, not too much of me is that part-the other partis: she dosen't sem to broken up bout it, andhoefully thiswill either teach her something for horses in the fiurture (which I hope she dosn't have) and think of FEEDING her hors instead of going to a Knny Chessny cocert. People are ignorant, and it's sad that her ignorancehad to cost this horses life, I know so may of you that would have offeredtotake the horse if you knew she coldn't afford to treat him properly. It culd have prevented so easily, but then again, so could a lot of things. Just my 2 sense /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm in envy, will you all please stop talking about how it's cold? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Anne FS]

You're right, AAJumper. I had totally missed that thread, and you're right, that sounds like the parents looking at the horse and saying, she doesn't know what she's doing, we need to get this horse out of here and to someone else.

[M. O'Connor]

but who'd have known? yes I picked up the odd vibe, but just put it down to the garbled communications of a teenager....One lives and learns. Now that doing so has been discussed ad infinitum, I vote for moving on....

[Kathy Johnson]

If you look at MJ's pictures, I am afraid you will see her every bit as thin as her horse was.

The over-whelming bids for attention, the large latitude with the truth, the skeletal thinness point to some severe disorders. Counseling is absolutely in order. Pray for the child and her horse.

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[coco]

"Kryswyn" and "Emily A" hit the nail on the head.

In my experience, the abuser is protected and excused by all around them -- and the victim is knowingly sacrificed in order to keep the peace.

I think this "peacekeeping" somehow relieves those who bear witness to "the horror" any responsibility to take action against their friend/family member/client/etc.

No one wants to be accused of being an "accessory" to the obvious/sometimes not-so-obvious-but-suspicious crime.

Another symptom of MBP is that many are nurses (as was my mother) and have medical knowledge (Didn't someone mention that M-J was VERY well read regarding caretaking of horses). She seemed highly intelligent to me...tbat she knew EXACTLY what she was doing.

The other frequent symptom is television soap opera addiction. Many soap operas revolve storylines around hospitals and high drama. The person with MBP then seeks this kind of high drama in their own life...they want life and death scenarios (and doctors!) in their lives.

And as has been said, they crave attention, sympathy and kind words from others.

My mother never got help (although her last words to me before she died were "I'm sorry") and I blame in part all those around her who protected her, went along with her, afraid to rock the boat.

As I got older I contronted my mother on a few occasions but she was very powerful within the family/friends circle...she had "been through so much". Yes, the context was always MY MOTHER had been through so much, rather than me the victim of her MBP.

M-J will probably never get help...in my opinion however, to paraphrase Bush, "you are either against her or you are with the animal abusers".

For goodness sakes people, when you sense things are not right, rock the f---ing boat!!! Or face the blood on YOUR hands. Once you witness it, it's too late to look away...you ARE involved!!!

[gwen]

m_j also said something about the ORIGINAL vet she called, would not do the tests. That is why she had to call another....Why wouldn't a vet do tests??????

Barb /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[suniday]

M. O'Conner - Don't feel bad for starting this thread. I think a lot of us felt something funny was up, but some of us (me included) wanted to believe that everything was as it was stated by M_J. I do hope that she or someone close to the situation will let us know what the vet report indicates.

There was a point where M_J did say that the vet had asked her to stop feeding the grain due to the diaherra (sp) before he came to see the horse. I have a question - does a undernourished horse produce diaherra when his body starts some of its wasting/shutting down? What is the "usual" process of the equine body during under/malnourishment?

I also seem to recall that M_J said the vet had indicated conflicting blood test results "again". Meaning what???

Still lots of questions!!

[In The Gate]

Guys, I think you are getting way out of line now. Coco, I'm sorry you had to go through that, but there is not evidence to suggest she was simply doing this for attention.

You are reaching conclusions and making statments without having ever meet M-J. These are exacly the comments that Erin was trying to get us to stay away from.

Yes, she did something wrong, so wrong that it shocks and hurts all of us. Especially because she asked for our help.

But to reach those conclusions from the evidence, what are you trying to do? "I think" and "I suppose" have no place on this board. You don't know what she was thinking, none of us do, so how can you be so sure THAT is what she was doing?

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

[Everythingbutwings]

M_J had posted on the BB that the vet said ulcers and THEN emailed me that she would let me know when the test results came back what the indications were.

She also told at least one person the day the horse became cast that it had broken it's back and tail, where we now know that the horse was simply exhausted, malnourished and unable to rise.

The one thing we do know from M_J is that she created a fiction and presented it to us. It was a work in progress more interesting to her than caring for her animal.

[Bumpkin]

I think that most of us were very suspicious for a long time, but knew that if we showed much doubt that we would be flamed.

If you have read through the threads there are doubts, but just tiny ones, again because of the flame factor.

Even after Cherry Upper died, many people were flaming those BBer's who knew what happened and posted it right out.

One thing I have learned in the two years I have been back into the horses after being away for 20, is "MY GUT FEELING" and "FIRST INSTINCT" has been right 99% to 100% of the time.

[lilblackhorse]

and the other poster many pages back (whom I can't find)-who both posted links of MJ's posts. I obviously was involved with my own horse's illness and did not see them. I also have to admit that I was beginning to get really annoyed with her posts-the horse was young, yet she wanted to use draw reins? Ick. She badmouthed a vet, when there weren't many around to help her....I also didn't seek out her posts, so I had never read the ones about her home life. They are interesting, but considering how she twists and distorts the facts, one must wonder how to take them.
I am very fascinated by the posts regarding MBP-it sounds like this is a very likely explanation, somewhat rare I believe?? Does one ever get counseled beyond it? (as in cured)....
My question is what is she doing this summer that someone wondered about? Does she have like a working student job or something? Gosh, I wonder how much Touche wants to be involved, since she is there-this kid needs some seriuos help, and I must admit I worry bout the pony too. Just my early morning musings.....
And as for closing the thread, I replied to that many pages ago-don't read it if it upsets you. Many of us feel the need to hash things out for our own sanity-to try to understand this better.
Thanks, let me know what she was doing this summer....it's a pity noone here really knows this kid....It doesn't sound like Touche got a real great impression of the father. That's too bad too.

"Wherever you go-there you are!"

[Erin]

Okay, two things....

If this thread does not get away from nasty mudslinging, and does not move on to the "issues, not individuals" variety, IT WILL BE CLOSED.

I know people are feeling very emotional about this, and you're welcome to share your emotions.

You are not welcome to make personal attacks, even against MJ.

I mean it. I know people are pissed off and venting, but that needs to STOP NOW, as far as the BB is concerned.

As I said way back when, MJ's situation is being addressed by someone who was actually there (Touche). NO, we should NOT be doing something about the pony, NO we should NOT be notifying her employer.

The only facts we know are that the horse appeared, by Touche's account, to be emaciated, and that, by her account, the vet could have been called sooner.

Those are the facts. Obviously people have drawn a conclusion from that. But please leave it up to the people who are actually in a position to do so, to "do something."

[Natty Dread]

Buenos Dias!!
Now that it is not so sunny and very friggin' cold and I finally got my knickers removed...phew that smarts! I have had time to sit and review many of the more recent posts.
When I first signed up for this BB I thought how KEWL, a board designed around the Chronicle of the Horse. Now I dunno what that means to you all, but to me the CHRONICLE was the mag! The top of the heap, the best of the best so I was in, man!! What better a resource for getting hooked back up with the peeps that were living the lifestyle. Well, I was right! Here you all are live and in person 24/7. However, you junkies posting at 3 a.m.-DUDE, go to BED!!!
What better way to get all that info you just couldn't get right at your fingertips. I am in Humper/Jumper heaven. 'Specially being away from it for so long. I had some ground rules that I gave to myself. BE HONEST!!! This is a horse community-MY LIFE-since horses are my life and my living. What an awesome opportunity to make great contacts and do some business, maybe find that elusive perfect kid's pony, maybe meet some new friends, maybe get some education....all that and more is available if you are willing to accept it. I WAS RIGHT!!!
But as I have learned there is more. This whole unfortunate situation has really brought a reality to this cyber-vortex. That there was a horse, maybe only 3 hours away from me that I could have, would have, should have helped. But, can we save them all? No, way big bummer. But there are more probably even closer. Maybe right next door. Could be, I have been way too caught up in my own shit and just to busy to take a look around. But I will now. There is a bigger picture. I guess we all learned that on September 11th as well.
This poor, young, uneducated, immature girl made an extremely unfortunate, uneducated call. She will make more, I will make some too. We are only human, I suppose. Even tho I consider myself extremely capable and educated and unafraid to tackle darn near everything. I will make bad calls. As will all of you. That sucks but thats reality. Now, I have been one of the LOUDEST voices screaming about what happened and after a fitfull night and alot of thinking I am clearer today. Its over. I am just so glad to have had an outlet to vent along with other people who felt as helpless as I felt. But we got to do it together. How great is that!?!? Thanks all for a fabulous place to share anything an everything regarding the most awesome animals ever created. Okay dogs are pretty darn good too!!
Have an Awesome Day!!! Juli

[UndeniedGirl]

I just wanted to say I was sorry to all the people I was rude to on M_J's posts defending her...I am so gulible /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I am also not quick to write someone off, I still dont know what to believe, I mean... I know what I *should* believe, but that little loyal, trusting, gulible part of me still wants to say that there had to be more /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Anyway, sorry to anyone who I was rude to, and to all the people I flamed defending M_J. I feel retarded now.

*Cass*
<~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~><~>

Fearfully, only time will tell, for it is all a leap of faith...

Life is not a spectator sport!

Smile...it makes people wonder what you have been doing /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[In The Gate]

Natty, when It says 3:00 AM, it isn't three am for everyone /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

[Bumpkin]

While you are probably having lunch right now, us Westerner's are just getting up!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I agree COTH is the TOP OF THE HEAP!!!

Thank you Erin!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Erin]

A couple of other things I want to add to the discussion.

It makes me uneasy that people now think we should take any posts that don't seem "quite right" as a call to "rock the f-ing boat," as someone put it.

Like a lot of people, I got some weird vibes from MJ's posts. Nothing that would make me suspect a horse was at risk, but some weird vibes nonetheless.

If you go back and look at some of the most recent threads, a lot of BBers felt the same way, and started questioning her... gently at first, then more demanding. You need to get a vet out NOW, you need to get a blanket NOW, that kind of thing.

I don't think there is anything that anyone here could have said that would have made a difference, short of going out and seeing the horse themselves, seeing he was possibly in trouble, and calling a vet or other authority themselves.

In hindsight, it's easy to say that more drastic step should have been taken. But that's easy ONLY in hindsight.

One of the things that I have always liked about these boards is that they're a relatively friendly place. Yes, there are arguments, often heated. But nothing like you would see on Usenet, for example. I don't think people here are afraid to make waves, but they don't usually do so unjustifiably.

I would hate to see this BB become a place where people felt it was somehow their duty to be confrontational whenever they had a doubt. Let's remember, this is cyberspace... misunderstandings abound even in the most innocuous of conversations.

There's a good community of people here, and I think MJ's situation was handled about as well as it could have been, considering the fact that no one here knew her in person or was really in her neighborhood. Everyone offered great advice, when it looked like she might not be doing all she could, people told her so. Geez, half a dozen people offered to GIVE her a blanket. Talk about going above and beyond the call of duty. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think this community HAS to be based on trust. It makes me sad to see some of our lovely juniors apologizing for being trusting. That's nothing to apologize for.

In a way, this is lot like the events of Sept. 11. People's trust was shaken then too.

This event is a sad reminder that there are people out there who don't take great care of their horses. But remember, one person in a community of over 4,000...

The vast majority of people here are deserving of being trusted. While there's no reason not to politely voice a concern when you have one, there's also no reason to assume the worst case scenario.

[This message was edited by Erin on Oct. 25, 2001 at 10:55 AM.]

[DOME]

But I do have one question:

Perhaps I interpreted Touche's initial post the wrong way, but if this vet was trying to "prepare" touche for what she was about to see....then obviously the vet was aware of the condition Seger was in. Obviously, he went to MJ to do tests on the horse, but he took no action to take seger then. This was only days before this incident, obviously Seger must have been in the same condition he was in when he was put down. The vet should have taken the initiative, and taken this malnourished horse from MJ RIGHT THEN AND THERE. You don't need test results to prove a horse is emaciated and malnourished. Any person with some experience wiht animals can see that a horse in being mistreated. This, is also something that people should be concerned with. The vet should have immediately taken action.

I really don't feel like going through what I feel about this incident. I think everyone else had pretty much said all that can be said. However, it is evident that counseling will be needed somewhere in this situation. Someone who would starve a horse to death, as I have interpreted from the evidence given, and search for sympathy and receive it from others!!! has a ludicrous approach to not only horses, but to animal welfare.

I hope Seger is now without suffering. It is a shame he lived his last months like he did, desperate for real love and attention.

DOME
"It's a passion and an obsession...100% is not enough."

[This message was edited by Erin on Oct. 25, 2001 at 10:46 AM.]

[Erin]

Dome, that is exactly the type of post we need to MOVE AWAY FROM on this thread.

[Kathy Johnson]

COTH is doing a fine job moderating this thread, yet also giving us a chance to vent and share. Kudos!

Kathy Johnson Dressage (http://www.webpeak.com/~tony/dressage/index.html)

[AAJumper]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by In The Gate:
Natty, when It says 3:00 AM, it isn't three am for everyone /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks Valerie!!! That's what I was about to say!!!

[diswick]

the vet di have certain responsibilities, in my opinion. But he had no legal right to remove the horse. He could have reported the state of the horse to the correct authorities; he could have talked to the parents.

My greatest fear, after reading the saga of Seger, is that this girl will end up with another horse. Especially if noone tells the parents flast out that the horse was mismanaged. I forsee the parents buying another horse for her out of sympathy..."poor M_J, the horse was sick, it wasn't her fault..." /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Bumpkin]

I believe Cherry Upper was a gift to her, as was the pony.
So hopefully unless someone unsuspecting, "Gifts", a horse to her, the parents won't be buying a new horse. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Remember the father wanted to let Cherry Upper go because of how he looked.
From reading that both parents wanted to either give the horse away, or put him down it would seem that they knew something was wrong.
Like Touche noted, she had them bamboozled.
Which this board knows was pretty easy.

[Spunky]

You are always the voice of reason!! Thanks! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Kryswyn]

The COTH boards were the first BBs I experienced. Imagine my shock, surprise, and dismay when I branched out to other boards, where anonymous postings were permitted! The name calling, the virulent hatred! Gosh you could see the spittle on the screen!

The Saga of Seger & MJ reminds me that although we have screen names, and stable (no pun intended) personas that accompany them, we are still only one dimentional on these boards. We are what we write, relying on emoticons to ensure that the meanings of the words are properly received. Because the overwhelming majority of us are nice, friendly, mature people (of all ages!) we do not come on here deliberately misstating facts, or outright lying about ourselves, our horses, or our past experiences. I'm sure some embellishment takes place. But that occurs in real time too.

Like with the hoaxes on other sites (the man who posted as a woman w/ a daughter who developed cancer and received email sympathy, snail mail sympathy AND MONETARY DONATIONS) the good, honest (which makes us gullible) people on this board get just a bit 'tetchy' to use Duffy's word when we find we've been lied to, our sympathies played on (like a violin!) and then (because honest people always feel guilty) we must dissect the situation so we will never let it happen again.

Well, guess what folks. It will happen again. It is the nature of the beast that the dishonest continually try to bring the honest down to their level. What can we do?

We can be good horse trainers. A good horse trainer NEVER forgets what a young horse is capable of, good AND bad. S/he never holds it against a horse when it acts naturally (bucking/rearing/spooking) and punishes more than necessary (that would be non-productive retribution)but s/he NEVER FORGETS that the horse that has done it once, can/may/will do it again! S/he doesn't expect them to misbehave again, but knows it may happen and is ready for it.

Or as James T. Kirk said, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME."

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[lilblackhorse]

said that? Oh, I have fallen behind on my Star Trek trivia...LOLOL
It's still a good quote, and you have a valid point in your post.

"Wherever you go-there you are!"

[just_me]

For Touche if you're still reading this thread

Have you spoken with MJ or her parents recently? I'm just wondering if her parents are aware of what really went on. Is MJ in denial or does she just not understand what she did?

Did you write at one point that her father told you to mind your own business? If so, it didn't sound like he understood what had really happened and what MJ had done.


And Kryswyn, James T. Kirk was far from the first person to make this statement /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - Or as James T. Kirk said, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME."

[rescuemom]

This thread upsets me more than I can begin to express, and for many reasons.

When all is said and done I still see no answer to my main question: "Why is this horse dead?" I'm not sure he had to die, but I'm not willing to second-guess anything on the available info. I don't expect most of us will ever know the answer.

Seger wasn't the first horse to die of starvation (if that was indeed the case), nor will he be the last. And the one thing they all have in common is that no one speaks up for them until it is too late.

[Kryswyn]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by just_me:
_
And Kryswyn, James T. Kirk was far from the first person to make this statement /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif - Or as James T. Kirk said, "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on ME."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So who really said it? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That's like saying someone else came out with Achy Breaky Heart before Billy Rae Cyrus. They did (Brooks & Dunn? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif ), but no one remembers, because it wasn't a hit for them! So I'll stick w/ Star Trek (Classic)! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

[Janet]

frequently uses the "fool me twice" quote, but I don't know whether she originated it.

[Duffy]

Krywswyn: "...a bit 'tetchy' to use Duffy's word"..

It's not "tetchy", it's "TITCH"!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[creseida]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kcorseinop:
...M_J would not intentionally kill her horse, not even for lack of money. She's a kid, her parents know next to nothing about horses, she has had no formal training, no trainer, and she's already said she doesn't have much money - not to mention she was paying for this horse herself! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you should re-read what Touche' posted. She was a member of Pony Club; she WON the Know Down! Touche took her to all sorts of events. If a kid is knowledgeable enough to win a Know Down, then she has the knowledge to recognise an animal in physical distress. Yet she did nothing until much too late. Why?

As to her trying to get a vet out...well from the sounds of her posts this process took uh...weeks?!? /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Earlier this month, I called my vet out over two minor nosebleeds. He referred me to another vet with whom I've never dealt before, but who had the equipment to perform the examination. This new vet, who didn't know me from Adam rearranged their schedule and came out within 36 hours. They simply asked for payment at the time services were rendered, since I was a new client. It should never have taken weeks to get the vet out. Her parents knew that something was wrong; even they recognised a problem. They were saying something had to be done. Obviously MJ led them to believe the situation was "fine", for if she needed the vet and asked them to call for her, due to her age, I'm sure they would have. They saw it themselves. Why they didn't act further is beyond me...


Originally posted by ETBW
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Imagine how quickly that horse would deteriorate from that photo in August given once per day (if that) feedings which M_J has already told us contained no grain. I have no idea if the pasture held up, whether or not the precipitation in the area was average for the area. What I do know is that my own young thoroughbreds would not maintain their proper weight/growth without additional nutrition provided beyond the grass in the field. None of us can do more than speculate if the horse was wormed (my own in the same time frame were wormed 4 times with Quest, Ivermectin, Safe-Guard and Quest) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Horses can live just fine without grain in their diet. But they still need to eat bulk roughage, be it hay or grass in sufficient quantities to maintain their weight. Pasture coming into fall would not be sufficient as the grass would be losing its nutritional value as the season waned. Without grain, he should have been eating at least 3/4 square bale of good quality hay (timothy and/or alfalfa) per day, plus grazing. Being a TB, he would also need a blanket, most likely.

I'll leave my personal opinions about MJ's ego out of this. Hubris was the undoing here.

What I do, I do for my horse, and thus I do for myself~me

[Evalee Hunter]

There is a long way between the book knowledge of Knowdown & caring for a horse. When I was 9 or 10, I got a horse. I had taken riding lessons since I was 4 & I was a reader--read every horse book I could get my hands on.

This was about 1953 in upstate (central) New York State, which is very cold (below zero for weeks at a time) and snowy. My parents knew basically nothing about horses, also. My father had lived on a ranch in Arizona as a boy (in the 1920s) but that was many years before in a very "rough & ready" environment & he had not been responsible for caring for the horses.

I am sure the elderly mare they bought me suffered that 1st winter. I am not totally sure why but they took a gelding from the same people--I think boarding it might have "paid for" the mare. He would bite her & drive her from the hay & none of us knew to put out many piles far apart. We did know she was getting thin & we realized she had big patches where she was bitten. A neighbor realized the mare was thin & called the state police who looked at her & told the neighbor they thought she was just old so nothing immediate was done. My parents did get the gelding out of there as quickly as possible so the mare could eat. But it was still obvious as spring came that she was not well--thin with patchy hair loss.

I was fearful because I knew my parents had little money but I did bug them until they got the vet out. Of course, then we learned about tooth floating & worming (tube worming 2x a year in those days) and other aspects of horse care. The mare did not live out her life luxuriously (I never owned a blanket) but she did get good food, worming, dental work, etc.

Most of the books from those days covered such things as how to ride, select tack, etc. but not much real specifics on horse care. When I went to college, we had the mare euthanized because I did not want something bad to happen to her so she lived many years after we bought her, even though she was well into her teens at the beginning.

All horse people have to learn, some of us by hard experience because we don't have knowledgeable friends & relatives available. Fortunately, the vet my parents got was excellent. He was Dr. John Steele & I have seen him mentioned in the last couple years in the Chronicle as a show horse vet. He used to care for Standardbreds. When Niatross was the greatest pacer on the track, Dr. Steele was his vet.

This thread has brought back many memories of growing up, some good, some bad.

[Miniwelsh]

Erin, does this mean we get another off topic day???

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[dublin]

Maybe we need an Off Topic week
in response to this!?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Of course, that's just my opinion. I could be wrong." - Dennis Miller
Still proud to be a UCLA Bruins football fan!

[Erin]

Ignore it... it will go away. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Miniwelsh]

we'll never let it die....

we want off topic week, we want off topic week!!! (Actually, I am trying to get 50,000 views on this thread - 20,000 just isn't good enough!)

BTW, how is poor Mr. Gus feeling? did you find something to feed him?

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Erin]

Don't make me break out the padlock, Miniwelsh! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Move along now, everyone... nothing to see here...

[Quinn]

A picture of my deaf dog Claire. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Miniwelsh]

wasn't me wasn't me!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

My, what an adorable doggy you have there Quinn!

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Quinn]

She was of course, a rescue. She has learned some sign language and has turned out to be a great dog around the horses.

[Miniwelsh]

Adorable. Was she deaf when you got her? I have a big rescue mutt myself who I found by the side of the road. She unfortunately, has never been smart enough to learn basic commands, let alone sign language.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Quinn]

Claire is half dalmation and half staffordshire terrier and she inherited her profound deafness from the dalmation side. She was born with incomplete eardrums. She is now 2 1/2 and an absolute delight but initially, it was pretty tough. We attached a longe line to her and when she would start to wander, we would step on the line and motion her back. She now knows to stick pretty close and is never out without me. The people who originally owned her had her in a shock collar and would zap her every time she barked. Did I mention she was deaf??? Claire doesn't know that barking makes noise. She frequently "mutters" to herself. Hey, so do I! What does that say about me?

And this is horse related because Claire and I live on a horse farm.

[Miniwelsh]

what the hell was wrong with her prior owners? People are total idiots. She is lucky to have found you.

I love when dogs mutter. I swear Monty thinks he is talking back when he grumbles at me.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Erin]

All right guys, that's enough.

If anyone still has a burning desire to address the original topic -- on a GENERAL scale, not a specific one -- start a new thread.