Future of Colored Sporthorses ???

[nadine]

I am interested in starting a discussion on the popularity (now and in the near future) of colored sporthorses and warmblood crosses, specifically, pinto, palomino and buckskin. I have seen some results from a Devon breeding show where quite of few of the placements seem to have gone to 'horses of color'. For those of you who just came from Devon, what is your take? And all else being equal (conformation, movement, temperment) would you rather have an unusual colored dressage or event or h/j horse???

[nadine]

I am interested in starting a discussion on the popularity (now and in the near future) of colored sporthorses and warmblood crosses, specifically, pinto, palomino and buckskin. I have seen some results from a Devon breeding show where quite of few of the placements seem to have gone to 'horses of color'. For those of you who just came from Devon, what is your take? And all else being equal (conformation, movement, temperment) would you rather have an unusual colored dressage or event or h/j horse???

[Portia]

Well, you've come to one of the right places to ask that question, Nadine (and welcome to the boards!) Liz Hall (Pintofoal) posts here, and she is one of the founders of a new colored horse registry, as well as being the owner of some of the best "stallions of color" around, starting with Art Deco. Then there's JB, who as a big Art Deco fan has learned a lot about color genetics. There are several other colored sport horse breeders and fans here as well, so hopefully some of them will see your post and reply. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[sirocco]

Here is a picture of my Dutch Warmblood Pinto Sirocco. She is by Domino. She is quite loud in color and has a ton of personality

[Beezer]

Like Spot said, I think it honestly depends on the individual. I love wildly colored horses; I know several trainers and judges out here, though, that would not even consider them for the hunter ring and certainly won't pin them. (Eventually, though, if enough of them win "Back East," they'll get more accepted here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

But the key is, ALL things being equal. We bred to Liz Hall's stallions five times and got one -- yes, one -- pinto. (And that's not meant as a dig against Liz or her stallions, it was just our bad rolls of the genetic dice.) Still, the color would have just been icing on the cake. Four of the five went premium at their inspections (the fifth just missed; he'd been a preemie and the inspectors considered him not developed enough) and all have made lovely, lovely competition horses.

In the final analysis, I'll take the well-built, good-moving, athletic, KIND soul in the plain wrapper over anything less in colored clothes.

A funny aside about that one pinto: She sure stood out among all our bays and chestnuts. It didn't help that she was clearly the alpha mare on our small ranch. It reached the point where she had to go to shows by herself because all her barn buddies would catch sight of her and start screaming. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Even now, after she's gone on to her new life as a broodmare, if the other "kids" catch sight of a pinto (even a pony) at a show, they start screaming until they realize it's not her. I have to say, that has made me think twice about buying another wildly colored one.

But I do "fantasize" about a nice Appy (one with a full tail!) or a palomino. It must be the California cowgirl in me. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

****Bulletin Board Goddess****

[pintofoal]

<<<And all else being equal [conformation, movement, temperment) would you rather have an unusual colored dressage or event or h/j horse???>>> Well I think for me that goes without saying, but of course unusual color would be on the top of my list if all things are equal.

I truly believe that the "trend" of colored horses is more then just that...if colored breeders be it pinto, app, palomino, etc. breed horses of quality and with the color they will always be in demand. Most competitors own 1-3 horses and it is really fun to have something that stands out not just because of its quality but also a flash/splash of color to catch the eye. People are unique with different styles and tastes and color horses help to fill void for folks who like a bit more then a solid bay or chestnut. I agree with most everyone--people either like the color or they don't a few may jump on the band wagon to be trendy or "cash" in, but those that do that tend to not stick with it and sometimes lose quality to the quest of color.

I am very proud and excited to be part of a new color registry IRC International Reg. of Colored Horses (http://www.coloredhorses.com) that Portia mentions above (thanks Portia for the VERY nice comments about my boys both here and on another post:o) and think that with the promotion, ratings, and future programs that IRC will offer will only help better the colored horses and help gain even more popularity and less prejudices (though those are few and farer between these days)

As far as I can tell the future of colored horses is a bright one and not just because of purple shampoo ;o)

Liz Hall
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com
http://www.coloredhorses.com
null

[Cap]

I have no problem with breeding colored sport horses. In fact, I have a buckskin TB mare that is in foal, and I'm very curious to see if she passes her dilute gene to the baby. However, I did not breed her because she's a rare color. I bred her for her superb temperament and because she has proven herself as an advanced eventer and grand prix jumper.

In my experience, many of the pinto, palomino, cremello, etc. horses that are being bred are of inferior quality (Liz Hall's horses are excluded from this statement. Spectrum is gorgeous!). In the Chronicle stallion issue, I spotted (ha!) several stallions that really look like they should be gelded. It bothers me when a horse who, had they been bay, would not even be considered as a stallion prospect but, as a colored horse, they are promptly put at stud as 2 year olds! They're not even finished growing and have not proven themselves in any performance arena; why are they being offered to the public to make more of them?!

[DARKHORSE]

I guess I am one of those 'traditional' breeders. My stallion, Alla'Czar, really has as much color as I like, high whites and some roaning. He does throw belly spots ocassionally,which are interesting and fine. So, going along with the 'all things being equal' which I totally endorse, I had the opportunity to lease an Art Deco/TB mare last year and decided to go wild!!
The resulting filly is absolutely stunning, she is comformationally correct, has a beautiful head and neck, has a pedigree to die for and moves just as well. She is 3/4 white with bay spots and a bay head. Quite LOUD.
Now, I have had several inquiries from potential buyers for yearling fillies for HB (Devon) for next year and nobody is particurally interested in this filly. That makes me belive that the color gap is still quite substantial. I am refering potential buyers to my breeders for fillies.
I am attaching a pic of my LOUD filly who I have named A Cover Girl.

Camille Greer
Darkhorse Farm

[DARKHORSE]

here is the pic? hopefully..

[sixpoundfarm]

Camille,
she is lovely. I love her long neck and refined head. I think that the right person will come along and have to have her. Maybe not for hunter breeding, but you never know. Liz sells hers practially unborn, so why should you have a problem selling such a fancy filly. Czar is a good sire, and she is nice.

[Jo]

Sirocco, what a gorgeous horse! She looks like she'll be a great hunter. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Who took that awesome picture?

[Cap]

Spot: thanks for the offer, but I'm never letting this horse out of my sight! She really is too good to let go. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[All points]

I totally agree, a stallion should not be a stallion for color only. If they don't have the conformation, movement, size, and temperment geld them. There are too many nice stallions out there who have the complete package.

Nadine:
The colored horses are here to stay. As an active competitor and breeder of Hunter Breeding horses, we see lots of colored horses on the line. The pinto warmbloods are doing pretty well even the loud ones. The ones we have seen on the line for the most part are correct good moving horses. A good horse is a good horse no matter what color. However, on the colored TB end of it they are having a harder time pulling good ribbons. I think many of the judges feel that a TB should be dark bay, brown, chestnut, or gray only. I have seen several instances in this Zone where they have been discriminated against. They tend to be more open in VA. Many of our handlers won't show a colored TB for some reason. I stick with my good horse theory. The same discrimination can happen in performance hunters too. But color is here to stay!

[SpotsNChrome]

Be it EVER so humble...
There's NO place like CHROME!!!!

From Miss Tabby Cat, PHSA Champion 1997 Thre year old Non TB and Reserve Champion Pa Bred. 2nd---Devon PA Bred 3rd--Devon Non tb. A VERY loud Tobiano QH and the highlight of my life!

You go Darkhorse, that filly is darling!!!!

[nadine]

Thanks for all the input everyone!! It's really great to 'meet' so many that also like color added to a horse with great conformation, movement and sweet temperment. It just gets so darned Boring!! when all you see is bay or chestnut horses with the occasional grey thrown in. Myself, I like the WB style dressage type horse but with COLOR!! I used to own a gorgeous PINTO that was so eye-catching, wherever he went he had a crowd of admirers. And from the time I was a child and watched Roy Rogers and Trigger, I always wanted a palomino. So I had to breed myself a palomino dressage horse. The comments on my colored foals have been positive and next month I am planning on taking my colt and filly to our local dressage breeding show. We shall see what happens. Here is a pic of my 7 week old filly, Artistic Gold, out of a solid bay ART DECO mare.

[nadine]

Really love seeing the photos of your colored horses. The pinto filly is just adorable, don't worry, she will sell quickly, just need the right buyer, they will snap her up - I would buy her myself, except I am supposed to be selling, not buying. <smile> The gelding by Domino looks gorgeous, would love to see a movement or conformation shot of him, what a hunk!! I have been to the website for the colored TB stallions before, they are amazing!! Where exactly in Ontario are you??? I am near Buffalo, NY and may want to breed one of my mares next year to something "bold". This year I bred my solid bay Art Deco mare (the dam to the palomino filly above) to Spectrum, hoping for some kind of 'spots'!! Liz, my mare is getting checked Friday for pregnancy, have got my fingers crossed, personally, I think she caught, we'll see. I love Spectrum's forwardness, his quiet temperment, and what looks like a great work ethic, should be a great foal, only problem is, I will want to keep that one, too!!!

[HeyYouNags]

Nadine, who is the sire of your palomino filly? Was he a cremello or palomino? She looks just lovely.

I'm trying to create a palomino WB/TB cross (hampered by breeding issues, see my previous rant about stallion owners not returning phone calls. Now Madam Mare decided to just forgo coming into heat at all last week.) Granted, it's a bit of a lark. Not sure what to expect out of my mare, since she's never had a foal before. She's cute, sound, and jumps well, so if she has a palomino version of herself, we should be okay. (Please don't flame me for not breeding with higher expectations.) I'm hoping Mr. Stallion will add a little more substance, and perhaps an inch or two more height. Mare is 15.3, sire is 16.2.

Like you, Nadine, I thought palominos were just the most beautiful color when I was very young. Never gave it another thought over the years, and then, BANG, I think I'll make a palomino! I don't know what hit me!

Ms. Mare #2 is a gray, so my efforts at color breeding with her are limited to "please do NOT make another gray"! She is covered with melanomas, and I would prefer not to perpetuate that. The gray nag gets bred for her substance and gorgeous gaits, but I won't even consider any gray stallions for her.

[akrogirl]

As a buyer rather than a breeder, I have to say that personality is my #1 requirement, but I do also have to admit to a secret hankering for a blue roan TB or WB :-) Also, since my trainer does both H/J and Western, a paint would come in handy, and I have seen some absolutely gorgeous ones recently :-) Hubby is getting more than a little worried about my horse plans for the future, LOL.

Spot, I love the sound of that horse you used to have - do you have a photo by any chance that we could see? His coloring sounds wonderful!

Camille, your filly is beautiful - I hope I get chance to see her in person at the RPSI Inspection /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[pintofoal]

Sorry to hear that you have not resolved your breeding dilemmas! Hopefully you will, but in meantime check out this boy (small attachment below) He is owned by a wonderful lady who should be great to do business with. He is currently in Germany completing his 100DT and will be in USA by next breeding season. I think he is really cool and though I'm into the spots more than the other colors I may breed something to him next year. This year I did go to two out side stallions -- almost 3 but the frozen semen bills are killing me so didn't do the third, which is a Wap stallion here in the US. I bred my black Hol x TB mare to Apollon a Knapstrupper standing in Germany and my Fine Art Pinto Oldenburg mare to Rhodes Scholars a young up and coming Rohdiamant son also in Germany, hoping for color in both breedings, but even if not should be great crosses.

Liz Hall
http://www.coloredhorses.com
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com

[pintofoal]

that all the foals/horses posted look GREAT and Darkhorse--your filly is lovely, believe me she will sell!

Liz Hall
Silverwood Farm
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com Standing at stud: Art Deco, Hall of Fame, State of the Art and Spectrum

http://www.coloredhorses.com

[keke414]

I'm not wild about loud pinto hunters but palominos and buckskins are OK, since they are solid colored. Palominos especially. Buckskins are sorta cowboy-associated. There aren't too many pintos showing as hunters at the A shows in my neck of the woods but there are some at the lower level local shows. A few years ago Apps seemed to be the rage in the beginner and novice classes locally, particularly the roanish and snowflake ones. So I think it's a fad thing that will level off. There will always be some people who want them and if they are good horses it shouldn't count against them.

[L Scott]

And I have seen quite a few Art Deco's and Kodachrome's out of TB mares and they are all outstanding. All. They have won me over for their temperament, type and conformation. Colour just happened to be the 'icing on the cake' as so many are fond of saying.

[nadine]

HeyYouNags

The stallion that I used to produce my palomino foals is an old-type American Saddlebred stallion that has long, extended movement, WB build, 9.5" cannon bones, and a very sweet, willing disposition, he is a very un-typical Saddlebred, not the gaited show-ring type at all. I have been very pleased with my foals out of WBx mares, they got great bone, very loving temperments, athletic ability and good movement, plus exceptional conformation. I will try to post a photo of him and my palomino colt by him.

[L Scott]

another

[L Scott]

ok, one more

[nadine]

Here's a link to his photo, he is actually much more massive and filled out now, very impressive in person.
http://albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=75526&a=550999&p=11783145&Sequence=1&res=high

[akrogirl]

Spot, that coloring is wonderful - it certainly wouldn't have put me off. I like him a lot /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Darkhorse - I showed the picture of your filly to a couple of friends and have someone who might be interested /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Please email me privately with details on price etc. (And no, I am not an agent, just in case that affects your pricing /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

norris@primenet.com (eve)
afp042@email.mot.com (day)

[DARKHORSE]

and everyone else for the nice comments on my LOUD filly.
Yes, she will be presented at the RPSI inspection held here in AZ on Sept. 29th. Still don't have a start time, but I am thinking it will be 8:00am.
I will look forward to seeing you there Akrogirl.

Camille Greer
Darkhorse Farm

[SpotsNChrome]

Here goes. Dark Horse, don't despair, you got a very cute filly. All you need is lots n lots of QUIKSILVER!!!

[SpotsNChrome]

...And Miss Tabby Cat's foal (yearling)....now THIS is for you faint of heart that can't take the color! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif All his splash is on the bottom!!!(still a APHA registered)

[Smiles]

Well my filly is going to show next weekend and I hope we do well. I for one would rather have a calm horse then a ribbon, but both would be nice. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif She is a black/white tob and I like that pattern better then the sabino and the tovero. I did look at the colored w.b. before purchasing mine, and at the time they wanted alot of money for what I thought were horses with color but that was it??? So it does happen on both sides of the fence not with just the apha. Akrogirl I'm with you I want my next horse to be a roan! Hopefully this pic I attach will work of my filly!

[Priya]

but wanted to say that when I got into coloured sport horses a few years ago it was because I LOVED the colour. It had little to do with the fact on if they would sell(pinto's seem to be a hard sell to the hunter ppl up here), but the fact that I loved the colour and waiting to see what I got when the mare foaled out! Colour to me is not the end all if I don't get it. I have bred for so many other things like conformation, movement, trainability, temerpemnt, ridability that if they just happen to have colour then I was really lucky.

This spring I had 2 foals who I wish had colour(both chestnut) but they are quality foals and will appeal to the ppl who don't care for the colour and will make excellent show horses.

So I guess as long as I'm breeding horses I will always have coloured thoroughbreds and warmbloods and I'm in this for the long haul....unless fancy coloured pigeons take my fancy instead /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif hahaha

Take care!

Sarah
http://www.trinitybreeders.on.ca
Quality Coloured Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods

[JB]

but all things being equal, I looovvvveeeee a nicely colored pinto! My next choice would be buckskin, than palomino, then grulla, then dun. Of course, a flashy black with high whites is nice too! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[JB]

that blue roan is beautiful! We had a blue roan school horse who could have been this horse's twin. We actually had a blue roan and a strawberry roan at the same time. They were both just gorgeous, and I loved them both. The pinto babies are just beautiful too - great pics!

[nadine]

So, those of you who have shown unusual colored horses, in-hand or under saddle, how has the reception been from the judges? Is the reception more open from dressage or sporthorse breeding shows than from say hunter or jumper judges???

[HeyYouNags]

Pintofoal, that palomino stallion is very handsome. What breed is he? I'll keep my eyes open for him in the future. And Nadine, your guy is quite handsome, too. He doesn't look like the Saddlebreds I've seen before (hmm, I think every saddlebred I've seen has been a chestnut. What's with that? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

My dabbling in breeding for color is pretty wimpy. I like the idea of guaranteed color, so cremello works for me! Not knowing what my chestnut mare will throw makes me nervous. With a color guarantee, there will be one aspect of foaling where's there's no uncertainty. Nevermind that it's the only aspect that can be guaranteed! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[BronkBusterTX]

JUST KIDDING!

Actually I have shown several JC Registered Palomino's in the hunter ring. From the pre-greens through the Regular working. I LOVE THEM! However, I do feel that more than a few of the colored thoroughbreds, should be culled. Color is not everything.

Someone mentioned that a colored colt is more likely to NOT get culled regardless of his conformation and I have to agree with them.

However, when I can find the good ones (and to win in the hunter ring they have be really good) I try to snatch them up. As for the jumpers, I don't care if the horse is purple if it can do the job.

As for LOTS of color in the hunter ring....I don't think you will ever see LOUD colored horses being a big hit. I think mostly it depends on how they are marked and in what colors.

I personally try to take the "Martha Stewart" (shut up Jair!) approach to deciding if a horse is color coordinated. I don't want the color to draw my eye to any place in particular. ESPECIALLY to one leg. If my eye is drawn to one place, a judges will also.

Secondly, a colored hunter HAS TO BE A GREAT MOVER with a big step. A colored hunter should not appear to struggle AT ALL!

I consider the colored horses in the hunter ring as a living art form (I know that sounds idealistic). But once you think that way, winning is not so important, but the beauty of the trip becomes paramount and that my fine fellow enthusiasts of colored show horses, is the name of the game!

[Velvet]

I could ruin my reputation if all the DQs (specifically suzy and that upstart rileyt) knew I was out here. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I am currently talking to a woman with a gorgeous tobiano stallion about going into a partnership and showing him in dressage. He's not a warmblood. He's as American Paint as you can get on one side, and the other is all U.S. TB. I met this horse and saw his beautiful, athletic babies (and his balance and easy collection) and wondered why I've been obsessed with warmbloods and thoroughbreds all these years. Especially when I discovered his easy going personality and willingness to work.

I know there are wonderful TBs and WBs, but now after being interested in this paint I have met many other paints and am beginning to form the opinion that the majority have really wonderful personalities. I also LOVE color. (I'm bored with plain-janes in the ring--if I have to wear unrelieved black why does my horse's color have to be just as unobtrusive in his color? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Give me chrome and a great personality!

Now comes the question...if I do this (and it all works out well for a long time), what do you breeders think is the best way to market him...and the best classes or testing to do with him to prove he's a great stud? He does have babies running around...but none of them can be ridden and most are crossed with paint or QH mares. I think the best thing is that people can see quite a few babies and how he has thrown nothing but color (so far) and most of the babies are more like him than the mares.

I've only worked with TB studs for the track, in the past, and haven't ever really gotten into the breeding business. So any information is appreciated!

[Hephaistion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BronkBusterTX:

I personally try to take the "Martha Stewart" (shut up Jair!) approach to deciding if a horse is color coordinated. I don't want the color to draw my eye to any place in particular. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

heeheehee well put Mickee! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have to agree though. I also am not a fan of the "loud" coloured horses, but if I saw a quality sporthorse type that had some funky markings on it, I wouldn't hesitate to try it out. A good example to me is the german stallion Rainbow who has just the right amount of splash to him to make him elegant, yet distinctive. There used to be a cool eventer in Britain called Bits and Pieces, and he was another neat one - mostly dark brown, but with a few extra white patches.

I suspect the hunters will remain conservative for some time, which makes me believe that a conservatively spotted/coloured horse of quality would do extremely well. If he's great, the judge will remember the horse all the more (mind you that can work the other way as well /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

Just another competitor/horse owner's perspective /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(PS - I saw you Velvet! I'm gonna tell! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif )

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nadine:
So, those of you who have shown unusual colored horses, in-hand or under saddle, how has the reception been from the judges? Is the reception more open from dressage or sporthorse breeding shows than from say hunter or jumper judges???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We showed our pinto WB mare in hunters (and eq/medals) for years before moving on to jumpers. It honestly depended on the judge. As I said in my first post, some love them, some don't ... and you quickly learn which is which.

We also showed a nice Trakehner mare at the same time who is best described as a chocolate palomino, even though her papers call her chestnut. She came complete with the big white face, three high white stockings and the flaxen mane and tail -- too very cool. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif Again, even though she was closer to the "traditional" hunter colors, some judges thought her too loud and others thought her beyond cute.

****Bulletin Board Goddess****

[JB]

May I ask who the stallion is?

[Smiles]

Why thank you Spot! I like her pattern to. Just enuf color and white together to make a nice coat. Warning though don't ever look to long at her while she is lunging you eyes will pop out of your head!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif You could never get this dizzy with a plain colored horse! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Velvet]

I'll be sure to post it as soon as it's a done deal! (Or when it falls through...)

Not that I think you'd care, but someone else might know and decide he's worth taking a closer look at...and there goes the horse I'd like to ride! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[sirocco]

She is extending the best she can. RIght now she is butt high and still growing.

[nadine]

OH MY!!!!! WOW!! She is fabulous!! Can I have her! hee,hee (I'm sure you wouldn't think of parting with her) What a beauty and if that's what she moves like when she is butt high and growing, I can't wait to see what she looks like when she is leveled out and mature! You are very lucky! Did you say she was by Domino, is he of Samber lines? What is her temperment like? And how old???

[nadine]

Your babies are really nice. Tigerman, what discipline do you have him pegged for, hunter??? He looks the type, I have a palomino filly that I think might be hunter material or dressage.

[nadine]

The vet came out today and my ART DECO mare is not bred, I was so sure she would be, DRATS! Well, Liz is kind enough to accomodate us again and will be breeding her again tomorrow to SPECTRUM. I asked the vet about taking that mare and foal and another mare (open) and foal to a breeding show next month, I would have to give them rabies shots, and she recommended NOT doing it as so much goes into breeding these mares AI and then to truck them to a show with their foal at side can stress them out and maybe not stay bred. I agreed that it is not worth it to me, but any comments????

[sirocco]

She is Samber lines, 2 years and 5 months. She is a smart horse. Every person that I have had work with her has said that she is unusually smart. I bought her as a jumper prospect. SHe has the most loving disposition, and, oh what a personality. She cracks me up. I have had her since she was 5 months, and she does have a hard headedness about her. I don't know if it is the breeding or just the fact that she is a mare. But I would not trade her for anything. I think that that hard headedness might help later with the jumpers. She is quite bold

[Rocky21]

Hi Gang,

Thought I'd jump in here since I'm new to the paint world. I understand you're talking about sport horses, and although our new guy is just a QH paint, I'd like to know what you think of him. He's got really nice movement and a fantastic temperament. Tonka's trot is nice and "springy" and he tracks up quite nicely and I think he's destined for more than just the trail. (Take a look at the perfectly marked English saddle on his back!) He's a year and a half and is already over 15hh, so I think he may be a good size. In this pic he's resting his back leg, but all his legs are perfectly straight.

We're interested in taking him to halter classes, but have no clue how to go about it. I'm a dressage rider and wannabe eventer, but have no qualms about taking him to paint shows. Anyone have any advice on how to get started and what's required? Do I have to wear a cowboy hat and flashy boots to show him?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Never stop cantering."

[Breedem]

i must say that i love a good horse of color, however there are some judges who just see color and not the horse. that is their shortcoming. i have two adult hunters, both paints that have done very well. always in the ribbons if i dont make a mistake.they however must be better than the average color in order to get ribbons. i tend to like the paints better than the warmblood pintos for the hunters as they seem easier to train and lighter across the ground.

[Kaleidoscope Farm]

I've always liked something a little different which I suppose is why I've enjoyed color breeding with the horses. I've not shown them in the hunter ring at all so can't comment on that. However, I've been getting inquiries on my champagne warmblood cross colt since he was a weanling ... he's nice, but he's getting even more inquiries than his sire ... who was imported, is approved/licensed and a paternal half-brother to AVGs Bonfire ... and I do find that a little skewed.

[Rocky21]

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Wow! It sounds like there is a lot to consider if we want him to show and place well. I guess after hearing all that I really don't care if he places and knowing what we'd have to do, it's definitely not worth it. I love the way he looks now and wouldn't want to fatten him up or build up too much muscle. One of the things we love about him is that he doesn't look too quarter-horsey (and I mean no disrespect to the QH folks) -- we've always owned TBs and are used to a leaner, more sculpted looking horse.

So, I guess it will be a good way to expose him to the show atmosphere. It will also be fun to wear a cowboy hat and jeans -- a nice break from breeches and boots and a bit flashier! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks again...now at least we know what to expect and how to go about it!

"Never stop cantering."

[nadine]

I have to brag just a little!! My palomino filly, 7 weeks old, by a Cremello saddlebred stallion and out of a plain bay Art Deco/TB mare just sold over the phone, sight unseen, for very good money. I had someone that has wanted her before she hit the ground, but just couldn't come up with the money and commit, so finally last Thursday I put the filly on the internet (Dreamhorse, WB classifieds). The very next morning a hunter trainer from Long Island began e-mailing me about her, made me a very good offer based just on 3 quick digital photos and will be taking her when she is weaned. She said she liked her breeding and her 'look', and would show her at Devon next year and then make her into a top hunter!! Wow! I am still amazed, it all happened so fast. So I guess color and quality does sell! I am letting this filly go so that I can build my reputation as a breeder, would love to keep her but I know that I will never do enough with her.

[nadine]

Here she is, ARTISTIC GOLD. This is the pic that sold her (and I almost didn't send this one)

[Pirateer]

We have an absolutely gorgeous Appy WB on our local circuit up here, who came from Washington. Not the greatest mover (although he is nice) but he has a phenomenal jump. Back cracking, knees at his chin. Does jumpers, hunters and eq.

He is a gorgeous dark dark bay w/ small blanket, total wb build, which is why he is more eye appealing than most of the appy's up here.

Rebecca and Pirateer *The Pi*, 9 yr old bay tb gelding.

**Go Big, or Go Home**

[SpotsNChrome]

Thank you for your interest. See me Cat En Around, or gleefully known as Tiger, was shown in the Hunter Breeding divisions and now is showing in a few Paint shows in the Yearling Longe LIne classes/futurities. I also showed him in the halter classes, never for a ribbon, but just to get him out there. He is for sale and People are not going to see him standing in a trailer! he is a LOT of fun!

Rocky..in halter, it is primarily a western class, so you need boots, hat, and western pants. They are cut really long..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif and i wear a classy blazer, nice longer cut. For the Yearling longe line classes I am finding that you need to show the dicipline you are promoting, in my case, a hunter prospect....so I wear hunt clothes (boots/breeches,etc.) and show him in a plain leather halter with a rolled throatlatch. It is a really fun class!

[daytimedrama]

well I'm getting to this really late, but here is a pic of my now retired once Eq horse Daytime Drama, his only white was a heart shape a fot about his hock. To this day I still do not know for sure but we believe he is a TB

~Christina~
"Chaos is what killed the dinosaurs, Darling!"
JD;Heathers
*Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.*

[daytimedrama]

here is a better view of his heart.

~Christina~
"Chaos is what killed the dinosaurs, Darling!"
JD;Heathers
*Nothing is foolproof to a talented fool.*

[AHC]

Just got back from two weeks showing in Manchester, Vermont and I was surprised at how many paints I saw in the hunters. A couple of years ago when I bought mine, she was one of the only ones.

There was an adorable horse in the younger A/As named Watercolor who did quite well.

I bought my horse cause of her personality and her love for jumping. I am hoping to avoid the judges who don't like color.

She's by It's Fleetwood Mac out of a paint mare.

Here she is making her A show A/A hunter debut.

[Dry Clean Only]

AHC, if you ever get sick of paint prejudice in the hunter ring, send you girl this way!!! Shes gorgeous!

[ljo]

OK I own a paint.He is everything I ever wanted in a horse!!!!!!
It took me 2 years of serious looking to find him.I wanted an english looking paint a tobiano with conservative color.

I 've had friends with plain bays or chestnuts and have watched their classes and I swear they were invisible. I've watched judges never look at them once.

[Tawna24]

Hi all!! Ok, I am WAY late in this discussion!! I just had to post also. As some of your may know, I have a palomino tobiano APHA stallion that is also registered with the AWS. He is one of those HORSE OF A DIFFERENT COLOR types, and I love him!! I do sometimes come across prejudice at the shows, but a attitude like that form a judge just shows me the ignorance and immaturity of that judge. Color should not be a deciding factor in the ring. I know that is not the way the world goes round, but hopefully soon the show ring will learn to accept these athletic AND beautiful additions to the ring.

[AHC]

Thanks Dry Clean Only. I feel like a real mom -- makes me so happy and proud when someone says something nice about her! I wouldn't hold your breath for her arrival at your doorstep though -- this little mare is mine for life.

[Miniwelsh]

what a beautiful mare! She is very fancy and eyecatching. I will get in line behind Dry Cleaning, just in case you ever change your mind /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[pintofoal]

What a lovely mare, I have seen some other Fleetwood Mac x Paints and they have always been really wonderful types.

Well since you will not get rid of her to any of us (I'd take her in a heart beat too, so add my name to the list) /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif you can always bred her when her showing career is over and my boys would be more than happy to accommodate!

Liz Hall
Silverwood Farm
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com Standing at stud: Art Deco, Hall of Fame, State of the Art and Spectrum

http://www.coloredhorses.com

[Miniwelsh]

You probably don't remember, but do you recall breeding to any of Pat Taylor's mares (she was at Mill Run in Welcome, MD) I would swear she had a filly when I was working there who was by Art Deco and was just a lovely mare. I think Tina Martin had a Deco baby as well (she is of Notley Hall Farm in Chaptico, MD)

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[AHC]

Wow and aw shucks, you guys are making my day! Liz, I can't tell you how flattered I am to receive a compliment from the person who stands Art Deco, one of the nicest colored horses ever!

Mackie is only 8 and soundness gods willing, she has quite a few good years ahead of her, although with my time and financial limits, she will never be pounded. But after she has done her job for me, I would love to breed her. I've even mentioned it to my trainer, who broke her and has known her since the day she was born, and he thinks it would be a good idea. Her jumping talent has been evident from the start, and she has a great head for the show ring. She's territorial with other horses when she's in or near her stall, but she is a complete puppy dog with people.

When we are ready, I may well come to some of you for advice!

[Hephaistion]

AHC! That is a fabulous picture of Mackie!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

She looks just adorable - and look at those lovely knees /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I hope you are having a fun show season!

[AHC]

Thanks Jair. Have sent you an email update. Hope all is well with you!

[Leather]

I just had to jump on the bandwagon and post a pic of my guy. He's a yearling Paint, and has the most personality of any horse I've ever had. His grandsire is now a trick horse on the rodeo circuit, so this winter while we're stuck in the barn I'm going to see if the little bugger takes after grandpa!

[Breedem]

i just love the good ones. how fun to have a wonderful hunter combined with a great attitude and lovely color. i have become somewhat addicted to them, in fact i have one for sale that is everything and more. i just cant keep them all. i have to say however that the really good ones that go around like the hunters are not easy to find. color patterns are important also. if you want to see a beautiful type look under sale horses at www.wariotofarminc.com (http://www.wariotofarminc.com)

[ljo]

Breedem I love the paint filly! My old horse is 30 and feeding shoeing etc for 2 horses is enough. When the old boy kicks the bucket I'll have fun finding a new horse.She would definately be a prospect for me! I love your site!

[wannabegifted]

What are some of the best Tb colored stallions you know?

Erika Smith

wise men never play leap frog with unicorns.

[milynda milam]

There are many nice color TB stallions out there--including some with progeny show success--are you more interested in sabino or dilute?

As far as JC registered stallions with show records themselves, that narrows the list (if that is relevant to your decision making)

See Me Com En is a Superior Hunter Under Saddle Horse and has produced foals that have shown well in both the AHSA and APHA arenas--hunter breeding and hunters. A really big nice horse.

Timely Roberto is a Reserve World Champion Senior Working Hunter, Superior Green Working Hunter, and #1 Honor Roll Green Working Hunter. Bob is now driving and we will probably continue showing him in Pleasure Driving, Working Hunter, and Hunter Hack. He has three TB foals (a two year old, a yearling and a weanling). Two of the three are Paint also and in show homes (two year old gelding is in a Paint hunter home in CA and the weanling filly is in a hunter breeding home in LA)so hopefully we will see then start to perform next year.

King's Ransom had a good Hunter Breeding career the one year he was shown--(PA Champion 2 yr old colt, including thirds at Devon and Upperville). His first crop of foals hit the ground this year. He has been in hunter training and will be showing under saddle this fall. Ransom had to wait his turn while we showed the Paints and we are pleased to get him back out on the road again.

GP's Kruggerand went to his first dressage show recently and did great! We are particularly pleased, as he is from our first crop of Glitter Please foals and was sold in utero in a package with his dam. He is an excellent representative for Glitter Please and we are proud to have a palomino from the Red Fox Farm breeding program doing so well for his new owner.

Another Red Fox Farm graduate, Brilliant Intuition, has also shown well on the line. Bright White,a very loud sabino stallion, has had some good ribbons in Hunter Breeding also.

Are there any others out there with show records?

Here is a picture of Bob at Paint Wolrd.

Milynda Milam
Red Fox Farm
Home of the Custom Color Sporthorses
http://www.redfoxfarm.com

[All points]

Well, to those who want to know about is on the line proven enough. Basically, you can take away that a horse with success on the line has pretty decent conformation. It is very tuff on the East Coast for horses to be successful on the line. A stallion who has done well on the line at the big shows, Devon, Upperville, Warrenton, IHF etc. eh is worth looking at, especially a young stallion. You only have so much go on with the young ones. So, when looking at a young stallion who has shown on the line, his success at it would be very important! What happens if stallion is injured and only showed on the line before he could compete in performance. Would his record on the line, looks, and conformation not be enough? That has to be a breeders personal opinion. A stallion who was successful on the line absolutley appeal to me.

[milynda milam]

Here's Bob at Paint World!

Milynda Milam
Red Fox Farm
Home of the Custom Color Sporthorses
http://www.redfoxfarm.com

[milynda milam]

Speaking of color sporthorses, here is Spotlight on his way to winning the APHA World Championship in Open Jumping. He's not a TB but has proven to be a wonderful cross on TB mares for producing foals with the right look. Since he's homozygous, you are guaranteed the tobiano coloring. His first foals are three year olds this year and should be entering the show ring this fall. And he loves to jump--scopey and careful! Lots of examples of half TB foals up on our website...

Milynda Milam
Red Fox Farm
Home of the Custom Color Sporthorses
http://www.redfoxfarm.com

[Breedem]

i have been reading the various replies and while i agree with alot of them i must say that a good colored horse needs alot more than color and size.i have one of the nicest paint stallions i think in the country he crosses great with TB mares and also with paints. his attitude, color, movement, conformation and offspring are showing his quality. i have bought, stood and sold several stallions, including See Me Comen who was a lovely type but is a reg. TB he is just a crop out and we were able to get him reg. as a paint. the paint horse breed in my opinion is one that should be watched a monitored carefully as it may just get too watered down. the greatest attributes of the breed should not be bred out of them.

[All points]

I totally agree. Paints do need to be monitored closely. So the breed stays true. By the way Omega is absolutely lovely. To me a colored stallion needs to be extra special, not just color. Like Art Deco, Omega, Hall of Fame, Hallmark, See Me Comin etc. All have proven offspring as well.
Keep an eye out for this young paint stallion, by the name of See Me Annihalte Em sired by See Me Comin. Or something like that. He looks the part and a good mover. I hope to hear more about him soon. A real tall elegant TB, a wonderful hunter type, he is the best Tb paint I have seen so far. But even his owner said for the paint world he is ahead of his time.

[milynda milam]

Yep, See Me Annihilate Em is a big boy with gorgeous sweepy movement--very representative of what serious Paint breeders are wanting to produce for the Hunters. I heard many spectators at Paint World this year surprised to hear that the APHA brought in AHSA judges to judge all the classes over fences. At the top Paint shows, the horses winning there would win at the A shows. It is very encouraging to see how much the breeders over recent years have specialized Paints for the English events and produced a big beautiful horse that owes much to a heavy infusion of TB blood. Good movers with the quiet Paint mind--when done correctly the Paint-TB cross combines the best of both and produces a type of Paint much more suitable for the H/Js than the typical Paint of, say, 10-15 years ago.

All this discussion of Hunter Paints seems like a great time to bring up a related subject. I will be going to APHA Convention this October in Tampa to follow up on a proposal I made to the Show Committee at Workshop this June. The General Show & Contest Committee gave serious consideration at Workshop to my proposal to investigate adding Hunter Breeding Classes at the APHA shows. The Hunter classes are getting very big at some of these shows, and I and other breeders have foal owners who would love increased opportunity to show their hunter type Paint foals in hand before they're under saddle. This is especially important for the areas of the country that are relatively underrepresented by AHSA Hunter Breeding Divisions. Also, as the classes gain in popularity, the goal would be for young HB horses to have the opportunity to venture to World Show and compete for the ultimate title in the APHA--World Champion!!

I will be doing an informational presentation for the committee at Convention. They have already proposed a "demonstration" period in which the HB classes could be held as demos (not point earning classes yet) to generate interest and answer questions about how to show in hand. Interested regional Paint clubs could add the class to their show schedules and over a one or two year period interest and participation can be determined at which point a proposal to make HB a point earning class can be submitted. I have been talking to some of the primarily Paint Hunter breeders (including the owner of See Me Annihilate Em, a major HB proponent)and the response has been very positive--excited, really.

Over the next couple of weeks I will be putting together an info packet for those who might be interested in learning more and participating in our campaign (mainly through letter writing, nothing too labor intensive)to add HB classes to the Paint shows. Interested? Feel free to email me at milynda@txcyber.com or phone at (979)272-1300. We would love to add you to our list of supporters! APHA is very receptive to the wants of its members, and if enough members let them know that they're interested in these classes, the classes will happen!

Milynda Milam
Red Fox Farm
Home of the Custom Color Sporthorses
http://www.redfoxfarm.com

[Breedem]

i agree with the hunter type paint horses. i show 2 in the adult hunter division at the A shows but when a person is breeding a crop out TB to a TB mare and it is reg. as a paint it really is only a TB and when one is breeding a crop out Paint to a QH then it really is a appendix QH all i am saying is that one parent needs to be an authentic paint, then cross it with either a paint, TB. or QH. in my opionion that is true paint breeding. there are many paint stallions and paint mares that when crossed with TB will produce lovely hunter prospects without having to breed Crop out to TB. that is not a true paint in my opinion, only a TB with color. i love the paint horses for more than color. i love the breed itself.

[milynda milam]

I respect your opinion, but that is not the way the APHA sees it. Their position, which I agree with, is that if the horse meets color requirements (very specifically designated) and pedigree/bloodline requirements, (any combination of registered Paint, AQHA, or Jockey Club), it is eligible for Paint papers. Period. A cropout is just as much a Paint as a horse with foundation breeding for 10 generations. This is how the breed has grown to the number two breed in the country in the past ten years and now registers almost twice as many foals annually as the Jockey Club. This growth also explains why we are seeing the same phenomenon that happened in AQHA years ago--specialization. The hunters are actually one of the last specialties, probably b/c this is a traditionally western breed. However, the inclusion of the TB blood in the gene pool allows breeders to create at true hunter through selective breeding and still remain in the Paint breed. This registry is also incredibly responsive to new ideas, as evidenced by their receptiveness to the hunter breeding concept. If enacted, this will literally require a massive effort for all APHA judges to judge a whole new division of classes. Yet if members demand it they will respond. Their goal is to grow the shows, the membership, and the production of quality Paint horses and that is done through inclusion, not exclusion.

The issue you are describing particularly disgruntles some people about double registered Quarter Horses, especially now that AQHA has relaxed its color rules for mares and stallions. Horses with qualifying white for both registries can go to both AQHA and APHA shows, and some people think this gives them unfair advantage. I personally don't see it. For starters, it is time and money consuming enough to campaign a horse in one of the breeds, much less two. Logistically you could hit a few bigs shows in each breed, but there is just no way you could all out campaign in each breed for Honor Roll, for example. There are too many conflicts. Also, if a horse meets the requirements for a registry, then it's irrelevant if it also meets requirements for another registry. The same people certainly don't have a problem with horses being registered Paint and Pinto and attending both shows.

Since there is no "Thoroughbred" show for cropout TBs to attend, I think it is wonderful that they can attend the Paint shows as representatives of the Paint breed, which has welcomed them with open arms. If the APHA considers them Paints, then they're Paints.

It's all kind of ironic b/c a very large part of the foundation of the Paint breed back in the early 60's (as in impetus for and initial registrations) WAS AQHA cropouts that couldn't be registered with AQHA. This breed was founded in a large part on cropout horses whose owners valued then and thought they deserved a registry even when the AQHA abandoned them. Since that is a founding principle of the registry, it still seems valid today.

Milynda Milam
Red Fox Farm
Home of the Custom Color Sporthorses
http://www.redfoxfarm.com

[BarbB]

I love colored sporthorses and hope to own one someday. Currently I own two plain bay TBs, very elegant, but I do like the color.
But I have a question for breeders. All of the ads that I see for colored sporthorses that are part TB stress that the temperaments are very layed back, easy going, not typical TB etc. etc.
I ride TBs because I like their temperament, not in spite of it. I like the fact that they are fiery and highly reactive and give 110% I don't think those are traits that I want bred out of my horses.
When you start crossing breeds for color - do you lose some of those basic TB traits?
Is it possible to have a colored TB that acts like a TB and not like a warmblood or a paint?
No disrespect intended to either - but they ARE different and if one prefers the TB personality - is it out there in color?
The ads seem to imply not.

BarbB

www.tapestry659.50megs.com (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com)

[This message was edited by BarbB on Aug. 12, 2001 at 07:49 PM.]

[BarbB]

I had paints back in the 70's - in fact when the registry was first formed separate from Pintos.
Times have changed....back then the color patterns were tobiano and overo.
I am guessing that sabino is white markings limited to face, legs and belly? Is that right, or close?

Love your farm site - going back to look some more.

BarbB

www.tapestry659.50megs.com (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com)

[JB]

Hey Barb - A sabino can be expressed minimally (is pretty much no white to as much as a blaze and/or "high" whites, usually with an inverted V shape at the top) to maximally, as in an all-white/nearly white horse. You can also see a belly spot, white snip coming down onto the lower lip, stockings that come over the knees/hocks (ie Sabra's Roz). Sabino can be expressed with or without an overo or tobiano gene, seems to be linked (how?) with the rabicano gene and maybe also with the roaning gene. Does that help?

[BarbB]

no.....speak slowly in small words....
that description of sabino sounds like the definition of tobiano - what's the difference?

are we talking genetics rather than expressed colors?
as in -- sabino is a horse that carries the genes for tobiano, but may carry for other color patterns also?

just slightly confused

BarbB

www.tapestry659.50megs.com (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com)

[Rebelspi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BarbB:
I had paints back in the 70's - in fact when the registry was first formed separate from Pintos.

www.tapestry659.50megs.com (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

the breed is still separate from pintos. pintos are color and paint is breeding and color is just a bonus. in order to register the foal a paint, the sire or dam MUST at least one, be a registered paint. the other half MUST be apha, tb, or qh. there are no exceptions. color comes into the type part of the registration. in no way shape or form, can a TB be bred to a TB and have a colored foal be registered paint. registered pinto yes, but not paint.

[pintofoal]

The IRC site (International Registry of Colored Horses) has a color key with tons of info on colors and genetics. Just added is a very informative article about Paint and Pinto colors by Janet Piercy with LOTS of photos. http://www.coloredhorses.com/colorkey.html Enjoy and I'm sure it will answer your questions about Tobiano, Overo, Sabino and then some.

Liz Hall
Silverwood Farm
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com Standing at stud: Art Deco, Hall of Fame, State of the Art and Spectrum

http://www.coloredhorses.com

[BarbB]

thanks for the site with the genetics.

BarbB

www.tapestry659.50megs.com (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com)

[pintofoal]

http://www.coloredhorses.com/PPnew.html

The color key is still under construction, but is already very exstensive. What to make sure you don't miss Janets artical with all the photo exsamples of all the pinto colors /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Liz Hall
Silverwood Farm
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com Standing at stud: Art Deco, Hall of Fame, State of the Art and Spectrum

http://www.coloredhorses.com

[BarbB]

I bookmarked the article, I haven't had a chance to read it yet.
Hopefully the pics will help too.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

BarbB

www.tapestry659.50megs.com (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com)

[HunterJumperz]

My dream horse is a pinto sporthorse. I fell in love with Patty Downings horses in Tallahassee this past spring- and they are all I can think about.
So if anyone is reading this and has one for sale that is currently doing the hunter divisions- I am interested!
I currently own a small palomino paint hunter pony - I think the coloring gives her that extra flash in the showring.
I think that the pinto sporthorses are here to stay and will increase in popularity as years go by.

Jen
hunterjumperz@aol.com
www.angelfire.com/fl4/Ridgepoint (http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/Ridgepoint)

[appyhunter]

BarB- Is it possible to get a 'TB' temperament in non-TB colored sporthorse. Absolutely.

As an Appaloosa Sport Horse breeder, I WANT to temper the race track mentality just a bit. I grew up in a very competitive hunter barn, back before the warmbloods were imported in any number. I LIKE the TB mind!

BUT! Facts of my life are that I work long hours, don't ride regularly, and I need horses that can deal with this gracefully. The goal is to keep the competitiveness, the desire to win, and the grit to hang in there thru a long day from the TB, but to.. modify it a bit with the more accepting, laid back ap temperament. Aps also tend to bond to their chosen people closely. This suits me well.

And that is the key, regardless of coat color. Does an individual horse's temperment suit yours?

How much, and what kind of temperament differences occur in outcrossing the TB really depends on what horses are being used, and how. A foundation bred ap cross on TB will have a lot of the ap brain, as that foundation bred is likely linebred appaloosa. The modern show type ap, and APHA bred horses will be more 'AQHA' in mind. And warmblood pintos will be just that.. warmblood minds in a colorful suit.

If you are serious about color AND a very TB mind, yet find the still fairly rare painted TB's not readily available to you, look for colored sport horses out of TB mares, and go for 3/4 TB or more. You will find this kind of breeding comes across very TB in nature.

The horse you want is out there. Have fun looking!

[Fairview Horse Center]

Does anyone know why the Pinto registry will not accept Belgian Warmbloods? We tried to register my stallion, Nevada's sabino colt with the Pinto Registry, and was told that they would not accept him due to his Belgian Warmblood Papers. Nevada's bloodlines are Dutch, and the foal's dam is a Hanoverian.

[Dunhorse]

I am finally getting around to posting about this thread. I have been meaning to for a long time, and just never seemed to have the time to sit down and reply.

Personally, all things being equal, I would take the colorful horse hands down. Absolutely no question about it.

I feel that a horse with spectacular conformation, movement, athletisism, and temperment with the added bonus of color is a perfect horse. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Granted, a horse without unusual color with the above traits is a spectacular animal, but it cannot compete with a colorful animal of the same quality. A colorful horse just stands out among the many bays, chestnuts, and greys.

Color makes a horse much more noticable, it draws your attention, not to mention the fact that the various dilute and pinto patterns are beautiful just for their natural hues. Specifically because of the added attention which is drawn to a colorful horse, the horse must be a physically beautiful animal. You are more apt to glaringly see the colorful animals flaws then those of a normal colored horse. They are still there in the normal horse, but do not jump out at you as painfully.

I do NOT believe in breeding for color alone. For me to like a colorful horse, it must be a gorgeous, well built animal. I HATE seeing the results of people just breeding for color. It is painful. It is obvious when you see the foals produced by the breeding programs with color as the solitary goal.

On the other hand, the produce of a breeder who has quality of conformation, movement, and temperment in mind are truely spectacular. Their horses jump out at you for the color AND their beautiful conformation. There are several breeders who post on this forum who have acheived the goal of producing a colorful horse with enviable conformation. My respect goes out to you.

Hopefully, if my life goes as I wish it to, I will one day be a breeder of colorful horses with the conformational standards which I feel so strongly about. If that happens, I will be truely blessed.

Good luck to all of you producing such beautiful horses! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

P.S. Sorry about the long winded message.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

[Dunhorse]

Your post is a perfect example of what happens when quality is thrown out the door for the sake of color.

About the horses with HORRIBLE conformation in the paint horse journal. I KNOW what you mean. Some of those horses are just painful to look at. Absolutely gross. The color which they are being bred solely for just makes them look worse. (As mentioned in my previous post, sorry. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

I get the Paint Horse Journal every month from a local tack store to have many veiws of pinto patterns for artistic purposes. I have spent a lot of time with my friends staring at the horrible confo of some of those horses. BUT the quarter horse journal IS the same. Their are some truely nasty sorrels and bays in that magizine.
My absolute favorites are the halter horses with posty hocks, upright pasterns, and crooked legs so exaggerated that they look unreal!

As I said above, the WELL BUILT, GREAT MOVING, colorful horses are here to stay!!!

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

[pintofoal]

<<<Does anyone know why the Pinto registry will not accept Belgian Warmbloods? We tried to register my stallion, Nevada's sabino colt with the Pinto Registry, and was told that they would not accept him due to his Belgian Warmblood Papers. Nevada's bloodlines are Dutch, and the foal's dam is a Hanoverian.>>>

They SHOULD register this colt (very handsome by the way!) BUT they are absolutely against allowing any draft or draft crosses into the PtHA registry--NOW I know and you know a Belgium WB is absolutely no relation to the Belgium Draft horse, but I don't think PtHA understands this and just because of the word "Belgium" will not take the youngster. They have registered my horses both Dutch and Oldenburg with Han lines, etc. they have registered Rainbow, and other Warmblood pintos, so I think it is that they just do not understand + your colt is marked somewhat like a Clydesdale, so maybe this is adding to their confusion. Art Deco was the first Warmblood ever registered by PtHA and it took alot of convincing that he was not a Draft bred horse--Warmbloods are very new to PtHA. You just need to try to make them understand.

We'd love to have him in our registry /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The International Registry of Colored Horses and would take him in a heart beat! But I would try to explain to PtHA that this foal has NO Draft lines what so ever and that it is almost a tad bit silly/stupid of them not to understand this or at lest listen to reason.

Liz Hall
Silverwood Farm
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com Standing at stud: Art Deco, Hall of Fame, State of the Art and Spectrum

http://www.coloredhorses.com

[pintofoal]

If your showing this colt at Devon IRC is having a IBC class with great awards. Again would love to include him or any of the other colored horses mentioned on this thread. Dressage at Devon is a great way to show off our colored horses. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The closing date unfortantly was just this week, but you maybe able to slide in an entry or two if done quickly.

Liz Hall
Silverwood Farm
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com Standing at stud: Art Deco, Hall of Fame, State of the Art and Spectrum

http://www.coloredhorses.com

[Breedem]

colored sporthorses include numerous breeds and cross bred horses. i think that all colored breeds if capable and correct for the disipline asked of them should be judged equally. i think that the other issue of breedng the colored horses should be defined more distinctly. pinto, paints, apps. palominos are all similiar yet different and should be looked at as such. one of my biggest concerns is still the lack of knowledge in the breeding end of the colored horses. there are so many breeders looking for the fast track to develop the color and type while diluting the original traits we first were attracted too. i am only talking about the Paint horse breed as the others mentioned are color breeds. i really dont think that TB breeding only should be reg. as a paint. one parent needs to have paint papers that are legitamate. remember, "sometimes you have to go slow in order to go fast" responsible breeding developes it doesnt move as a fad.

[Dunhorse]

Spot,

I just have to say that I completely agree with your argument for the colorful TB horses.

The Paint horse association was originally formed to provide an option for the registration of crop out quarter horses. They have also always allowed and inclusion of TB blood to improve the stock. In fact, the breed is defined as a breed of horses with the pinto pattern coming from quarter horse and throughbred bloodlines. The quarter horse and throughbred are the base stock on which the APHA was orignally formed.

The inclusion of throughbred blood is nothing new. It is not like the APHA suddenly decided to include TBs. They have been there all along from the very roots of the breed. Therefore, a colored TB is just as much a "real" paint horse as a crop out quarter horse is, and is as much a "real paint" as those animals used to found the breed.

In my opinion, throughbreds are not going to "dilute" the type of the paint horse breed. There will always be the foundation type paints and the inclusion of throughbred blood will refine the breed, creating a better horse.

I am a member of the APHA. I own a paint, and regularly get the APHA journal. As a member, I welcome the inclusion of TBs with open arms.

Also, I would LOVE to see the inclusion of HB classes in the APHA. Where would I get the info about petitioning the APHA for these classes?

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

[Dunhorse]

Thank you Spot. I will contact Mrs. Milam for more information.

Hopefully the petition will be passed. I think it would a a huge boost to the breed to include HB classes. A large market would be opened up in the hunter/jumper world if the APHA was producing more horses of the type nessessary to successfully compete.

As to flashier horses possibly not pinning as well in the H/J world, I feel with continued exposure to nice moving, well built colorful horses, the judges will come around.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

[All points]

Spot:

I think it is wondeful that the APHA wants to add Hb to their shows. But I was just at my first paint show in NJ a couple of weeks ago, and if those are the horses they are planning on showing in HB they have long way to go. This show hated any Tb type paint. It may just the region I was in, I am not sure. I don't know about the APHA shows, just always thought they were beautiful horses. I was told, but can;t be sure that this was a pretty big Paint show. I hope you can change the rules and get good judges to look at these HB Tb or 1/2 Tb paint horses. I think it would be great for paint breeders concentrating on Paint hunters. Anything that looked Tb at this show was completely ignored, even in the Hunter classes, it was sometimes very obnoxious. It was like Yuck that one has Tb in it. I am die hard HB/Hunter person and this was just a shock to me.

Breedem is just offering her opinion on how she feels about the paint requirements. I agree that breeds can be permantently damaged by fads. She is just giving another side to the story. If you knew what she has accomplished with her HB horses you might think differently. She is THE QUEEN of HB. Many of the very best HB horses ever to grace the ring anywhere in USA were bred and raised by her. It is always good to get opinions from both sides. Keep us posted on how the APHA rules and good luck with that.

[Breedem]

first, thank you for your comlement about my breeding program. now to define my word legitimate concerning the paint horses. i am the one that was able to get papers on See Me Comen several years ago. after he was admitted i believe that the APHA made a rule called the See Me Comen rule stating that no other TBs could get reg. paint papers so that the breed would always require one reg. paint bred to either TBs Paints or QH. i think that that type of breeding provides LEGITIMATE paint background.in that way there is truly one paint parent in the equation. i have spent many years breeding for the real deal, and i wont modify my beliefs even if a program does. i dont always swim with the school i have been known to swim upstream if i thought it worthwhile.

[Kylie]

Check out my friend's horse Oreo! I am like so going to breed a horse of this color when i get older. I do believe that he is a TB/Appy/QH/Paint. He was Equusite.com Picture of The Day for August 5th. And a funny thing is that I also saw a mini colt with the same markings and color. So you can see why I want one!

~*~Helen~*~
Mother to a 16-year-old 16.1h Dark Bay TB Mare by the name of Kylie

[jparkes]

I have been a member of the APHA since the 70's and the color alone wasn't what drew me to the colorful world. The paint horse was marketed as a family horse, one that had a heart of gold, one that could pack around a 5 year old child, one that could be competitive at a show as well as a great companion on the trail. The added color was a bonus.
Since more TB's with color are added to the registry, then the foundation of the APHA would be seriously altered.
Pick up a Journal someday and look at all the young kids and their horses. Look at the ones who do all the trail riding. That's what the APHA is all about.

[This message was edited by jparkes on Aug. 17, 2001 at 01:54 AM.]

[Amy]

I don't think there is a rule that you must have one registered paint parent bred to either a Qh or Tb to get papers.... how else would they take crop out Qh's or cremellos that result from 2 palomino AQHA breedings? I think it is rediculous to suggest APHA continue to take crop outs from AQHA but not from the JC. The way I see it there is no difference. Crop out Qh's that get APHA papers are still 100% Qh. The same for Tb's that show lots of white. Maybe you are happier with the Qh's because they are stock type? Or because they can't be registered AQHA?

I think the APHA is a large enough organization that the diverisity we see is healthy. I don't have a problem with the APHA papers I have on my tovero stock type colt nor do I see a problem with the APHA papers I have on my 1/2 Tb mare and filly. And personally the APHA stallion owned by Red Fox Farms (Hot Brew) who is better than 80% Tb is nothing I would be ashamed of either. They just show the diversity of the breed.

[milynda milam]

The "See Me Com En rule" that I am familiar with is one in the AQHA, not APHA. There is no APHA rule that states a Paint must have one registered Paint parent. As long as the horse has both parents registered in APHA, AQHA, or JC and meets color requirements it is eligible for registration. Period.

The AQHA See Me Com En rule states that any TB used in a AQHA breeding program must meet AQHA white rules. Several years ago, you did not have to send in pictures of your TB to "list" it with the AQHA. You sent in a front and back copy of the TB's papers and the fee and your horse was listed. This was done with See Me Com En, who was the main TB Paint out there at the time. AQHA mares were bred to See Me and if the foal had qualifying white, great, you registered it APHA, and if not, still fine, you got AQHA Appendix papers--still very good papers for hunt seat people. There was no risk of a breeding stock Paint, b/c the solids were registered Appendix Quarter Horses. So it was percieved as a "win-win" deal by many people.

At some point someone brought it to the AQHA's attention that they were allowing TBs in the gene pool that would not be allowed based on the white markings if they were QHs, and that the white rules should apply equally to both the AQHA and JC horses used in AQHA breeding programs. Hence the "See Me Com En" rule was passed. Now when a horse like See Me is bred to an AQHA mare and does not produce qualifying white, the foal is registered as an APHA breeding stock, not and appendix Quarter Horse.

I can understand both points of view on the "what is a Paint horse" issue, though I do agree with Spot that the APHA is a wonderful venue for colored TBs and if the APHA considers them Paints, they're Paints. I agree with the other viewpoints that the APHA is VERY MUCH a family oriented registry, and that that has been a big reason for their success. It is also a registry that wants to grow and meet the needs of its members. The registry itself has experienced such phenomenal growth in the past 10 years that the growth is also bound to reflect new interests within the diversifying APHA membership. One of the main new interests in the English type horse. It is inevitable that to produce a better Paint hunter or jumper breeders are going to start to up the percentage of TB in the horses. And no, I'm not talking about breeding any old thing with JC papers, but within the APHA gene pool the TB blood is the most direct route to a hunter type horse and probably a necessary element to produce a true hunter look.

This is the same phenomenon that happened to the AQHA. The AQHA grew and diversified and now has completely specialized industries within the breed such as hunt seat, cutting, and western pleasure. The AQHA still has a very family focus and is still very much considered a family breed. The APHA also seems to have no intention of abandoning its family focus (and I agree, just look in the Journal to witness this), yet is facilitating the development of specialties within the breed for serious show people. This has nothing to do with the APHA family/kid horse, which is still being bred. The family horses are still all over the Amateur and Youth divisions safely packing people around (perhaps the same non TB type Paints All Points saw at the show), but you will NOT see them winning the open classes at big shows because they shouldn't be winning those classes. As at any other show, the Open horses are generally different horses that the Youth or Amateur horses.

So if the concern is that allowing all the TB blood is going to somehow contribute to the demise of the family Paint that can trail ride one day and go to the (average sized) Paint show and be high point Youth horse the next, I don't think that's a concern. What we're seeing is that the breed is growing and a whole new segment is developing, not to replace the "established" type of Paint but to exist side by side and offer new opportunities within the breed. To me, that sounds like a good thing.

Here are two Paint stallions which illustrate the diversity of the breed perfectly--Timely Roberto, a 100% TB Paint overo is on the left, and Spotlight, a very foundation bred tobiano, is on the right. I think the photo also says a little bit about the wonderful disposition of Paints!

Milynda Milam
Red Fox Farm
Home of the Custom Color Sporthorses
http://www.redfoxfarm.com

[pintofoal]

We are very excited about the wonderful awards for colored horses showing at Devon. Many of the awards have been donated by generous IRC members and the awards are lovely! We wish everyone showing to have a successful and great show! To take a peek at what IRC will be awarding:
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com/ircawards.html

Looks like a good size class of 14+ entries, so I'd say the future of colored sporthorses is looking great!

Liz Hall
http://www.silverwoodfarm.com

http://www.coloredhorses.com

[fleur]

I only wish I had a mare to breed to ANY of the wonderful, talented, odd-color stallions out there. I am a frequent visitor of the pages for Silverwood and True Colours! (Norsire and Red Fox also are really great colored sporthorse farms) When (if /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif) I ever get my own horse, I want it to be a colored warmblood or thoroughbred. But of course it has to be wonderfully conformed, gaited, disposition, etc /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*EMMA*