FairWeather, feeding sunflower seeds ? [Archive]

FairWeather

Apr. 10, 2002, 09:26 AM

Sleepy--Regular Black Sunflower seeds, you can pick, them up at Walmart or a pet store, 11.00 for 50 lbs /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
The shells dont bother the gut at all, but you will want to introduce them slowly, and work up to a cup (or whatever amount) over a decent length of time. Horses should be exposed to different textures (IMHO) such as stalky substances, grassy, whole grains etc...The sunflower seed doesnt bother them.

Robby...I was basically reading up some thoughts written by Eleanor Kellon that made total sense to me. Corn Oil has little to no nutritional value, all the "good stuff" is processed out of it before it gets to your horse. I expect my horses to be competitive, reactive, skilled athletes...After reading about it, and thinking about what Corn oil actually is, I decided that Straight, processed fat just doesnt fit into my horses diet any more than it fits into mine. So, now I feed whole seeds so they get the entire nutritional benefit.

KT...here's the biggest secret of all...50 lbs of WHOLE flax (it keeps longer) + 50 pounds black oil sunflower seed. Mix in large trash can. Feed one cup per day /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Flax seed does not need to be cooked, ground up or soaked. If you put some flax seed in a cup with a little bit of water, it does the exact same thing as when you bpil or "steep" it. The acids in your horses stomach are easily able to break down the seed shell and benefit from the oils of the seed.

Hope this helps /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Willow

Apr. 10, 2002, 09:48 AM

Really, flax doesn't need to be ground? Then why do people feed it like that . Have I been wasting my time and ruining my coffee grounder.

Does the black oiled sunflower seeds help to make the coat darker?

FairWeather

Apr. 10, 2002, 10:10 AM

From my limited understanding, it was thought that Flax (or linseed) was toxic unless cooked first...which isnt true.
Here are some snips of info I pulled off of the horsescience list:

The only part I would call "wrong" is about not feeding it dry
because of water absorbing properties. It can be fed dry with no
problems. As he mentioned, the stomach acid largely neutralizes any
enzyme activity and takes care of potential HCn generation. Most
people don't feed anywhere near enough flaxseed to have to worry
about it in the first place though and seeds vary considerably in
their HCn generating potential. Green seeds are more dangerous than
mature, uniformly golden seeds. In any case, feeding the seeds whole
is safe, grinding and feeding immediately is safe, using low heat
stabilized whole flax is safe (this processing preserves the
essential fatty acids) or high heat fat removed linseed meal is safe.
When I mentioned what happened to the seeds if you soak them in cold
water, I wasn't suggesting that as a method of preparation, just an
example of why grinding probably isn't necessary.

Eleanor

--- In horsescience@y..., "Solvi Nordin" <S1nordin@y...> wrote:
> Eleanor
>
> I will write the exact words written in a book by David Frape in
"Equine Nutrition and Feeding" second edition of 1998 with regards
to feeding of Flaxseeds/linseed.
>
> "The cooking of linseeds also destroys the enzyme linase, which
after soaking, would otherwise release HCN from a glycoside in the
seeds, in the presence of water, so poisoning the horse. This action
implies that the seeds should be added to boiling water rather then
to cold water and then boiled, otherwise some enzymatic activity may
be initiated. However, HCN is volatile and a proportion of any
allready present will be driven off by subsequent boiling. Linseeds
should not be fed dry because of their water- absorbing propensity ,
allthough the contained linase would be rapidly inactivated by the
stomach's secretions. The low- temperature removal of oil during the
production of linseed meal implies that the product may be toxic if
fed as a gruel, linase may not be inactivated and HCN can be evolved.
In comparison, oil removal by the expeller process normally yields
sufficient heat to make a safe cake, whether it be fed wet or dry. UK
laws stipulate that liseed cake must contain less then 350 mg HCN/kg,
although this takes no account of any linase activity that may be
present"
>
> Is this wrong?
>
> Solvi
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: valine20
> To: horsescience@y...
> Sent: Sunday, March 10, 2002 4:33 PM
> Subject: [horsescience] Re: Flaxseed and mollasses
>
>
> Frankly, I suspect feeding it whole works just as well as
grinding it.
> If you put some flax seed in a jar or cup with just plain cold
water
> it starts to gel pretty quickly. Stomach and small intestinal
> "juices" should do an even better job.
>
> Eleanor
>
> --- In horsescience@y..., "eclectk1" <Eclectk1@a...> wrote:
> > Eleanor,
> >
> > Is there any real problem or loss of nutrients expected if the
> > flaxseed is feed whole without soaking, cooking, or grinding?
> >
> > Robin
> > Desert Springs Sport Horses
> > http://www.Sportshorses.homestead.com
> > (best viewed in explorer 4.x or newer)
> >
> > --- In horsescience@y..., "valine20" <kell@e...> wrote:
> > > SNIP>>
> > > Whole flax seed is more of a "food". It is 36% fat and about
20%
> > > protein, good source of the essential amino acid lysine and
has
> the
> > > full mineral component of the seed which will be missing in
the
> oil.
> > > If soaked briefly or ground and fed immediately after this,
the
> > > essential fatty acid component is retained. Need to feed
about 3
> > > times as much seed as the oil for an equivalent dose of the
fatty
> > > acids.
> > >
> > <<SNIP>>

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Robby Johnson

Apr. 10, 2002, 10:14 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KT 1900:
Did you REALLY notice a change in his coat... or might this be wishful thinking?

How long did it take before you noticed the difference?

Just a thought...
KT<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you really think I would imagine better coat quality? Me, the neurotic groom? No way, sister! I have had him a month and I can tell greatly, but that could also be due to shedding and regular grooming. His coat was really dry when he came, and now it's much oilier and healthier.

Robby

Robby Johnson

Apr. 10, 2002, 10:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:

Robby...I was basically reading up some thoughts written by Eleanor Kellon that made total sense to me. Corn Oil has little to no nutritional value, all the "good stuff" is processed out of it before it gets to your horse. I expect my horses to be competitive, reactive, skilled athletes...After reading about it, and thinking about what Corn oil actually is, I decided that Straight, processed fat just doesnt fit into my horses diet any more than it fits into mine. So, now I feed whole seeds so they get the entire nutritional benefit.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But I've always understood it to be a really good digestive aid, not a way to put fat on the horse. That's why I feed stabilized rice bran, too.

Where do we get whole flax seed?

Robby

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 10, 2002, 10:23 AM

Sorry, didn't know you were a neurotic groom... btw, that MUST mean you've got a vacuum (LOL) Wish I did. Maybe we can start a neurotic groom clique.

Anyway, ok. My RRB's coat isn't *unhealth* per se, but it doesn't really shine much... I saw a friend's horse which looked like he'd been dunked in ShowSheen. And I said so... she said it was diet, hence my interest.

Fairweather... so the bottom line is if I buy flaxseed and mix it with sunflower seed (and feed it to RRB) it's not going to kill him? <Laugh, dear. It was MEANT to be funny!> How slowly did you bring him up to... what's your baby's weight and "dose"?

Just a thought...
KT

FairWeather

Apr. 10, 2002, 10:24 AM

interesting.
I've not heard of digestive benefits, I thought the acids would have broken down the oils in the gut /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif
The only oil that I thought aided in digestion was mineral because the body couldnt process it...but i could be totally off base /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
(it wouldnt be the first time!)
I get my whole Flax from my feed store.

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Therese

Apr. 10, 2002, 10:33 AM

That's good to hear about flax seed. I've avoided feeding it since I thought you had to grind/boil/soak it and though I am a loving horse owner, I'm rather lazy. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Now to go to the feed store and get some...

As for results from the sunflower seeds. I went to them since the boarding situation I'm in makes oil a pain. I've been very pleased with the results. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

--Therese

Smile! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif It makes people wonder what you're thinking!

Pixie Dust

Apr. 10, 2002, 10:39 AM

OH, FW, that's good news. I don't really enjoy making that slop every night.

I started feeding flax seed & sunflower seeds (get both at the feed store) last fall. I definitely noticed an improvement in his coat! My horse is not blanketed, so he's quite wooly in the winter. His coat had a glossy sheen, like each individual hair had a sheen. Right now he's shedding, so it doesn't look so hot...you know old dried up hairs falling out

Superheroes of the universe, unite!

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

Robby Johnson

Apr. 10, 2002, 10:43 AM

I have a little Dirt Devil that I take with me everywhere. No horse should ever be dusty!

As a fellow neurotic groom, you'll understand my frustration with Rhodey's sensitivity to being brushed. None of my tools seem "soft" enough for him, and the ones I have (and bought a new one this weekend) don't get him nearly as clean as I'd like.

Robby (I'm adding flax seeds this weekend!)

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 10, 2002, 10:48 AM

What? Dirt Devil?

Tell tell. What secret grooming tip are you hiding? What, you didn't have to spend your entire year's pay on a 'horse vacuum' ($600+ DOES seem excessive!)

(I'm calling my feed store now... too bad this isn't a stock tip, it'd be rocketing through the roof and the SEC'd be on our tails.)

Just a thought...
KT

Robby Johnson

Apr. 10, 2002, 11:43 AM

red, with mini-bag attached. Love it! Use the beater brush feature for a pony massage. Willow loved it, and it did work well! $28 at Target.

Robby

Lisamarie8

Apr. 10, 2002, 12:12 PM

Where in the illustrious Village do you get all of this? I wanna start my boys on it.

-- Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.

FairWeather

Apr. 10, 2002, 12:59 PM

you must wander your hiney up to Westminster /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I just picked up a bag yesterday...it lasts forever, come by my barn and I'll give you a bag /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

In The Gate

Apr. 10, 2002, 03:10 PM

Hey, FairWeather, your web page doesn't work.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
I'm a 4th quarter senior!!!
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

Lisamarie8

Apr. 10, 2002, 05:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
you must wander your hiney up to Westminster /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I just picked up a bag yesterday...it lasts forever, come by my barn and I'll give you a bag /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WESTMINSTER!?!?! My Lordy, I must pack a sack lunch and fill my cantene /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

You are far too kind. I'd love to try something other than my weight builder for fat content (Oil wouldn't work where I'm at...suppliments must be in pre-measured baggies). I have yet to come and find your place. We MUST plan an outting with our ponies SOON!

-- Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.

FairWeather

Apr. 11, 2002, 03:49 AM

I'm pretty sure is flax-based...so much cheaper to just get Flax seed /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

If you go to the OTHER end of MV avenue, my barn is right around there...REALLY easy to get to!

I'll order you a bag if you want...I can get deliveries from there.

I'm ALL for an outting! I went to the league last weekend and had a great ride /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

re: my website...my domain is not cooperating! you can get there via www.fairweather.bizland.com (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
enjoy /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 11, 2002, 04:55 AM

THIS is what you use on your horse??????

I was expecting more of a hose type mini-vac.

Fairweather: is this mixture going to cause my horse to gain weight? This is a supplement, right, not replacement feed? Sorry to ask so many questions, but you've got a great idea, and I think I'm going to try it. But I have to be very careful with RRB's as he was very ill 18 months ago. I have to introduce verrrrry sloooowly.

Thanks for the info, in advance.

Just a thought...
KT

Robby Johnson

Apr. 11, 2002, 05:19 AM

love it!

Robby

FairWeather

Apr. 11, 2002, 05:25 AM

It can help with weight gain, but just feed a little amount and you will get the benefit of the oils without adding too much fat to the diet...The flax is high in Omega fatty acids--great for hooves, coat, mane and tail /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Introduce slowly and you shouldnt have any problem.

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 11, 2002, 05:31 AM

Robby - ok. I found one on E-bay for about $5.00. Is my horse going to have a cow the first time I use it on him? No, don't tell me, I already know the answer is yes. Too bad. He'll just have to get used to it. (Any tips greatly appreciated.) Hey, they also have an attachment package for the DD, ever try 'em? (they're about $4.00)

FairWeather - RRB is 15.3 and weighs about 1200-1300 (quarter horse, doncha know.) Your horse is how big and you're feeding how much?

Just a thought...
KT

FairWeather

Apr. 11, 2002, 06:21 AM

All vary...But they are all TB's, from 1000 to 1250 (guessing) and I give them half cup of sunflower, 1/4 cup to a 1/2 cup of flax. When it mixes it's not super even...the flax is tiny little seeds.

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 11, 2002, 06:28 AM

Ok. You keep them separate. I guess I'll start with a sprinkle of each and work up to 1/2 cup sf seeds and 1/4 cup flax.

Cross your fingers, and THANKS! I'm going to pick up the stuff this weekend and see where I go from there.

Just a thought...
KT

P.S. BTW, FairWeather, just read your story of NH & Ma. Where did you ever get the courage (no, scratch that, guts) to go.

[This message was edited by KT 1900 on Apr. 11, 2002 at 10:45 AM.]

Robby Johnson

Apr. 11, 2002, 07:39 AM

with not much caution. My horse would groundtie to be body clipped, so I didn't expect much hoopla. She didn't even flinch. At first I used my attachments, but then got brave and flipped the beater brush over and went to work on her with that. She stood and slept. One caveat ... keep it away from the mane! She did sort of look at me when we sucked some mane up, but probably because she thought I was going to pull it! (They all have an Achilles heel!)

Robby

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 11, 2002, 08:05 AM

Looks like RRB is in for a shock over the next two weeks... Dirt Devils and sunflower seeds. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I can just imagine the look, can't you? "What on earth is this stuff ?!?!?!?!?!? <flared nostrils and heavy snort breathing>

Thanks for all your help.

Just a thought...
KT

Lisamarie8

Apr. 11, 2002, 09:47 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
If you go to the OTHER end of MV avenue, my barn is right around there...REALLY easy to get to!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The end AWAY from 355 right? You pick a day and I'll just show up cocktails in had and we can sit around have a beer and stare at the ponies /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:

I'll order you a bag if you want...I can get deliveries from there.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would be great! Tell me how much and next time you order and i'm ALL over it! Do they deliver the Seeds AND the Flax Seed? If you don't NORMALLY get anything delivered then I'll just haul my ass up to west-bygod-minister and get some /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
I'm ALL for an outting! I went to the league last weekend and had a great ride /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm insanely jealous. I've just started working Ozzy again and he is in DIRE need of a field trip. Where do you wanna go, whatch'ya wanna do Huh? Huh? Huh?!?!?! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Neither Ozzy or Whiskey have ever been on a picket line, but hell they gotta learn sometime /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif
<UL TYPE=SQUARE>
Saftey Goggles - Check
Air Bag - Check
Bubble Wrap - Check
Sleep Aid - Check
Replacement Line and Halter - Check and Check[/list]
Lets ROCK!

-- Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.

Pocket Pony

Apr. 11, 2002, 12:23 PM

Ok, y'all have convinced me that I have to try these sunflower seeds! Mickey has a gloriously shiny, blooming spring coat, but I always like to feed him special treats w/ his dinner.

I went to PetCo and bought a 5 lb bag for 2.99 on my lunch break!

* I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me. *

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 15, 2002, 05:56 AM

Started RRB this weekend on Sunflower seeds alone. Two questions for you:

1. what would be the symptoms of these disagreeing with him? (That's a tough question to answer, I know, but do your best) RRB was doing an imitation of a dead horse (you know, lying down completely flat with his head on the ground) 24 hours after I gave him his first "sample". A bit unusual, but sent me into a panic.

2. where did you hear/read that it was good for clearing sand from the gut?

I've done a search on the internet for feeding sunflower seeds to horses, and apparently it's not as unusual as I originally thought. And, I have to admit, I haven't stopped feeding them to him... and it's probably only about 1/4 cup at most.

Just a thought...
KT

cbv

Apr. 16, 2002, 07:05 AM

Could you share some of the other resources you found in your web search on feeding sunflower seeds to horses.

I am intrigued and my first reaction was I like this idea but would like more info before I dive in...

I too have been feeding oil but have had, and continue to have, some nagging concerns about it....and now that the grass is greening have noticed my horses' coats looking so much better, and since I already feed very little concentrated feed, I have stopped feeding the corn oil altogether.

However I have two lay-ups, who can only get grass from short hand-grazing sessions, and I have noticed their coats are not nearly as gleaming as the ones getting regular or constant turn-out.

Bumpkin

Apr. 16, 2002, 07:18 AM

I bought a bag of the seeds last night and gave some to Elliot.
I don't know if he finished them up in his beet pulp last night or not.
Did I put too much on his chart though?
As I wrote 1 cup per day..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Pocket Pony

Apr. 16, 2002, 08:35 AM

Could you completely substitute the seeds for corn oil? Seems it would be much more cost effective to do so, and it also seems the benefits of the seeds outweigh the oil?

Mickey gobbles them right up - I mix 1/2 c in with his dinner at night and about 10 minutes later he has licked his tub clean!!!

I went on google and did a search of sunflower horse food or something like that and found a lot of references to feeding horses black oil sunflower seeds.

* I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me. *

FairWeather

Apr. 16, 2002, 08:55 AM

The only reaction i've seen with some horses is loose stools. I start at about 1/4 cup and work my way up to 2 cups a day. If you have any reservations, by all means ask the vet. I have a list (provided by the ever-amazing Keely) of sites about feeding sunflower seeds.

Bumpkin...you may want to work up to a cup, some horses get loose stools when you first start.

I think its a much healthier alternative to processed (meaning zero nutrition) Oils. My horses LOVE them! I use them as treats when I clicker-train!

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Pocket Pony

Apr. 16, 2002, 09:16 AM

FairWeather...thanks for bringing us up to speed on the wonders of black oil sunflower seeds!

I have noticed some loose stools with Mickey, but not consistently loose...just every now and then. I think I'll take these couple of weeks to wean him off of corn oil and increase the seed intake. Yippeee for my pocketbook!

* I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me. *

Pocket Pony

Apr. 16, 2002, 09:19 AM

p.s., FairWeather, could you post your sites regarding feeding sunflower seeds?

* I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me. *

Seven

Apr. 16, 2002, 09:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
The only reaction i've seen with some horses is loose stools. I start at about 1/4 cup and work my way up to 2 cups a day. If you have any reservations, by all means ask the vet. I have a list (provided by the ever-amazing Keely) of sites about feeding sunflower seeds.

Bumpkin...you may want to work up to a cup, some horses get loose stools when you first start.

I think its a much healthier alternative to processed (meaning zero nutrition) Oils. My horses LOVE them! I use them as treats when I clicker-train!

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like a copy of the list to read more about this -- one of my horse's is currently boycotting corn oil (I think in an effort to get me to buy the MUCH more expensive cocosoya /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif which I will NOT do! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ). Plus I think the barn help would be happier adding another 'scoop' rather then the messy oil if I can get the same (or more?) benefits?

Still, I wish that Keely would start posting here again...it's too much trouble to lurk around on the other boards to find out the same stuff she knows! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

=^+^=

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I just haven't been the same since that house fell on my sister. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

FairWeather

Apr. 16, 2002, 10:18 AM

*and as a sidenote...the ridiculous line of thought that sunflower seeds are addictive, and contain nicotine is absolutely absurdly false*

Sunflower Seed Stuff

Australian Sweet Feed Mix containing sunflower seeds:
http://users.hunterlink.net.au/~ddpad/eq_energ.html

Fats, minerals, vitamins from a 'natural' source - well-absorbed & utilized from sunflower seeds
http://www.equerry.com/html/ate/eq_ate801.htm

Kentucky Equine Research - source of fat
http://www.ker.com/equivit/nutrit_solution.html

Aussie review of feeds - general info
http://www.gvequine.com.au/Review%20of%20feeds.htm

A source of unsaturated fats as well as thiamine, magnesium, folic acid, niacin, pantothenic acid, copper, phosphorus, potassium, zinc, and iron, plus info regarding hulls as fiber
http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.asp?fid=217&dpt=14

As a 'high fat' supplement
http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.asp?fid=538&dpt=14

Brief mention as source of fat
http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.asp?fid=525&dpt=14

Source of fat again
http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.asp?fid=96&dpt=13

Oil content
http://www.agcom.purdue.edu/AgCom/Pubs/AY/AY-227.html

Aussie from U of Melborne
http://www.awfa.org/feed1.phtml

"Mineral Rich" food
http://www.naturallyequine.com/supplements.shtml

Good for YOUR 'coat' too!
http://www.findarticles.com/cf_0/m0820/1999_April/54232139/p1/article.jhtml?term=flaxseed+oil

"Natural Feeding" - Aussie site - mentions a good diet as hay, chaff, bran & black oil sflwr seeds
http://www.straightfromthehorse.com.au/natural_feeding.htm

Beth Valentine on sunflower seeds (but my other research and experience says you don't need to add the oil - she's discussion ESPM diets for draft horses here
http://www.ruralheritage.com/messageboard/frontporch/1519-10.htm

Brief mention in the ingredients in some wonder feed....
http://www.happypaw.com/ml.htm

Another brief mention as an ingredient in a feed
http://www.elkgrovemilling.com/stable%20mix.html

From an old "ask Don Blazer" ( http://www.donblazer.com/author/meetdon.html )
Ask Don Blazer

Question:
How can I improve the color of my horse's coat?
_____________________________________

Answer:

If you need to darken your horse's coat color then an increase in protein and trace mineral content in the daily ration will usually directly influence the depth and intensity of color.

Try adding 4 to 6 teacups of sunflower seeds to your horse's daily feed. Allow several weeks to see a difference.

A daily supplement of vitamins and trace minerals, including Vitamin A, iron, copper and zinc to correct low feed levels may help to deepen the color and give a dappled appearance.

Reducing the amount of protein and fat content in the horse's daily feed ration will lighten the coat color usually within 2 to 3 weeks.

If your horse is on a grass hay based ration, then a calcium supplement may be needed to avoid a dull, lifeless and brittle coat and hooves.

FW**

Off to roll a dube of seeds. LOLOLOLOL

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Bumpkin

Apr. 17, 2002, 06:52 AM

Fairweather that was great!!!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

opus mom

Apr. 17, 2002, 11:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by FairWeather:
(I'm no longer feeding corn oil...its just BAD for the equine athlete)
Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How come no more corn oil? I've been advised to feed it to my 26-year-old who's haveing trouble keeping weight on (otherwise healthy) /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 18, 2002, 12:50 AM

Welllllll....

Hello, this is the thread that just refuses to die... thank goodness.

Fairweather, well done on the sunflower links. I still didn't spot anything on the sand/intestine issue. Doesn't matter, really.

Bought flax seed this past weekend, and I'll start my RRB on him this weekend. Interestingly enough, when I bought it the manager of the feed store informed me that "be careful, because it will go rancid." How long can I keep it? And of course, the reply was "I don't know." Geez. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Did you know there was a "flax council" website? Go figure. www.flaxcouncil.ca (http://www.flaxcouncil.ca) The exact site for storage info is: http://www.flaxcouncil.ca/flaxpd5.htm#storage

AHEM. You can store flax seed at room temperature for a YEAR. Ground should be as needed; stick it in the fridge in an opaque container.

Just a thought...
KT

FairWeather

Apr. 18, 2002, 09:26 AM

Yep, ground flax will go bad...as will the oil if it isnt refridgerated. I beleive that once it is exposed to sunlight it starts breaking down but I cant put my finger on the literature.

I have something somewhere that talks about the attributes of Flax (and sunflower) being good for clearing sand from the gut. I'll dig around again for it.
You are welcome for the list of links...It is courtesy of killer Keely... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 18, 2002, 10:46 AM

Did you look at the site?

What a ripsnorter, eh? Couldn't put it down... look out John Grisham.

Anytime for the sand/gut stuff (doesn't that sound gross???)

Just a thought...
KT

FairWeather

Apr. 18, 2002, 11:13 AM

What everyones saying about FLAX!
lmao /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Seven

Apr. 18, 2002, 11:31 AM

Is anyone feeding whole, unground flax seed? FW?

Anyone have any calorie and fat content information on either black oil sunflower seed or flax seed?

=^+^=

/infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I just haven't been the same since that house fell on my sister. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bacchus

Apr. 18, 2002, 11:37 AM

I feed whole, unground flax seed and corn oil. My horse looks fantastic. I am thinking of switching from corn oil to black oil sunflower seeds thanks to this thread, the other thread, and my pocket book. I keep my flax seed in the bag for many, many months with no problems (50 lb bag for one horse who gets about 1/4 cup a day last a long time). I feed more in the winter and when he is working harder.

Shannon

"If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 18, 2002, 11:45 AM

ROTFLMAO

What everyone's saying about FLAX... hahahahahaha.

I'm killing myself laughing so hard...

As my writer brother-in-law would say, with a serious look in his eye and a smirk on his lips-

"Ya know, somebody wrote that." /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sorry, this really is a horse-related topic, I just got a little side tracked.

Just a thought...
KT

Janie

Apr. 19, 2002, 01:45 AM

Because I didn't see it when I zipped through the links, FYI, here are the figures for sunflower seeds (which I feed, 1 cup a day, to my horses. Black. Shelled. They love them)

16.7mj/kg DE
23% protein
One can substitute 720gm of sunnies for 1kg of oats.

Ref: John Kohnke, BVSc, RDA

FairWeather

Apr. 19, 2002, 04:24 AM

Wheres the Sunflower seen council of america???

hehe...Anyhow, to answer some ??? I feed whole, unground flax. Grinding it isnt necessary soaking in cold water will cause the oils to release from the seed, and stomach acids are far better than water...get it /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Here is a FAB site about contents of seeds:
seed content (http://www.curezone.com/foods/fatspercent.html)

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

vineyridge

Apr. 19, 2002, 06:39 AM

According to the analysis, sunflower seeds are really, really good things. Says you can substitute 1.75 lbs of sunflower seed for 2.2 lbs of oats.

My TB is getting Omolene 100 with Equine Adult !/2 and 1/2, because his trainer thinks he needs grain. I want to avoid the molasses/grain high as much as possible.

It occurs to me that I could substitute sunflower seeds for Omolene.

What do you folks think?

Bacchus

Apr. 19, 2002, 08:02 AM

The sunflower has no LNA, which is what the horses (and we) need more of. Therefore, wouldn't a mix of flax seed and sunflower seed be a good idea? I would think that adding sunflower seed wihtout a source of LNA would be bad.

Shannon

"If you can't feed 'em, don't breed 'em."

vineyridge

Apr. 22, 2002, 01:28 PM

Bump, darn it.

How much sunflower seed is too much sunflower seed?

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 24, 2002, 04:02 AM

Last night, for the first time, after I groomed him after our ride, his neck hair/fur was W-O-N-D-E-R-F-U-L. Incredible. I couldn't believe it was the same horse. Shiny. And what's it been? Maybe 10 days since I started?

Anyway. THANKS. It's going to be a permanent part of his diet.

Just a thought...
KT

FairWeather

Apr. 24, 2002, 04:33 AM

KT...We've got you hooked now, huh?
thats awesome!

Viney...I've heard people say that 1 cup is plenty, but i've fed up to 4 cups a day with no adverse reactions. (Sunflower that is)
However, my horses have iron guts /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Oldenburg Mom

Apr. 24, 2002, 04:44 AM

Not only do you have me hooked, but I've taken the line and sinker too! (LOL) Honestly, I couldn't be more delighted. And surprised.

PLUS, hold on. My Dirt Devil arrived last night. And after a few TENSE moments, well RRB was vacuumed thoroughly. Great. A shiny (it's just starting on his neck) clean horse.

What's better in life than that? (Answer, in case you're stuck: NOTHING!!!)

Just a thought...
KT

Sleepy

Apr. 24, 2002, 04:52 AM

I've been feeding the guys at home and their coats are incredibly shiny. Now if I can just convince the barn owner to feed Rhett. Fairweather, how long before I can see a weight gain? That's really why I started this on Sleepy.

Bumpkin

Apr. 24, 2002, 07:51 AM

I am certain it is written on this thread, but I cannot seem to find it.

What about added energy?

Does the sunflower seed do that? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Bumpkin

May. 3, 2002, 07:18 PM

WOW
Elliot's coat is so slick and shiney!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
We have had him a cup or less of the seeds approx 10 to 14 days.

So far no maniac, wild attitude to go with the shine. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

FairWeather

May. 6, 2002, 07:10 AM

I'm glad you all are having positive results /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As far as the weight gain...It depends on your horse, and the other items you are feeding. It wont pack weight on, but I do see a difference in my horses flesh.

Added energy is tricky. Fats CAN be used as energy, but they wont give you that "boost" if you are looking for one. You may want to look into Carbo Supplementation if you are seeing a quieter than you'd like horse /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Pocket Pony

May. 6, 2002, 08:45 AM

Mickey has always been shiny, but my goodness he's so SOFT now! I've been using the BOSS for about a month now and I can't get over how soft his coat is!

* I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me. *

Tin

May. 6, 2002, 08:57 AM

oh I just found this thread now (perhaps I need glasses?) and I can't wait to go to our co-op and buy some flax and sunflower seed /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Shiney horses, here we come!!!

o.k, so here's my question- at one point FW you said you just mixed the two together right? do you find at all the the pesky little flax seeds escape and settle at the bottom of the pail? would it be better to keep them seperate or do you not find a problme with it?

"If at first you don't succeed, try, try again. Then give up. No use being a damned fool about it" -W.C. Fields

FairWeather

May. 9, 2002, 04:10 AM

I usually keep them separate, unless I am mixing a small amount...It just makes it a little easier to measure the individual amounts out...

Since I restarted Flax seed (I had stopped it for about 6 months because I couldnt find whole seed anywhere) my horses are shining so much that I really dont think I'll need to bathe them for shows! I'll take some 'before and after' pics for everyone /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

In The Gate

May. 13, 2002, 09:07 AM

One more question- how many calories are in a cup of sunflower seeds?

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
I'm a 4th quarter senior!!!
And I'm going to:!!!UC Davis!!!
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

FairWeather

May. 13, 2002, 06:00 PM

almost 900 calories per cup

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Liberty

May. 14, 2002, 09:37 PM

Just wanted to add my .02 cents here. After reading this thread the other day, it dawned on me (yeah, I'm a bit slow sometimes) that my horses would enjoy a bit of sunflower seeds in their feed as well. One would think I would have gotten the hint last winter when I found my mare doing what she's doing in the attached pic. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Maria

May. 15, 2002, 07:22 AM

Ok, I'm going to do this with my horse. I just want to be certain of something first.

There has been mention of Black Sunflower Seeds and then there has been mention of Black Oil Sunflower Seeds.

Which ones?

I've been thinking Black Oil Sunflower Seeds.

Also, a question, and I will go through the links when I have time, BUT, do you think there would be any reason NOT to feed the sunflower seeds or flax seed to a horse that has been through colic surgery or is considered colic prone?

The reason I asked is that I mentioned starting this to my barn manager and she about fell out.

Thanks a bunch!!

Pocket Pony

May. 15, 2002, 02:28 PM

I found this nutritional info on Flax Seed:

Nutrients Amount in 45 g. (1/4 c.) of Flaxseed!

Calories 245
Protein 10.6 g.
Carbohydrates 12.4 g.
Total fat 16.9 g
Total dietary fiber 11.7 g.
Sat. fat 1.9 g.
Cholesterol. 0 g.
Omega-3 9600 mg

(from this website:http://www.heintzmanfarms.com/default.htm)
* I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me. *

In The Gate

May. 15, 2002, 03:48 PM

Maria- I would ask your vet, especially if your horse is on a restricted diet now.

Valerie
~VWiles02@yahoo.com~
I'm a 4th quarter senior!!!
And I'm going to:!!!UC Davis!!!
Valerie's home page (http://www.geocities.com/vwiles02)

FairWeather

May. 15, 2002, 03:52 PM

Liberty...Lolololol! I use them as treats when I do clicker training...they go bonkers for them!

Maria, definately ask your vet. I personally dont see any problem with it, but I dont have a horse like yours /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Better to be safe and ask /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif...

Always,
FairWeather
"Just call me mint jelly cuz i'm on the lamb!--Grandpa
http://www.fairweather-farm.com

Alongstory

May. 31, 2002, 07:39 AM

I've been feeding black oil sunflower seeds for about 3 weeks now and my horses look absolutely lovely!! They are both bays and the dapples are popping up all over. I couldn't be more pleased but one side note, I guess one of them is not chewing their seeds up totally, because I paddock picked yesterday and several 'road apples' had little sunflower plants growing out of them! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I had their teeth floated in February... Do you think it would be any harm in letting the plants grow in the paddock??

Oldenburg Mom

Jun. 25, 2002, 08:32 AM

I am sure you HATE to see this resurface, but...

I just wanted you to know this duo made RRB sooooo shiney, I did not need Show Sheen at my very first horse show. I bathed him (Vetrolin shampoo) let him dry and brushed him lightly.

That's it. And BOY, he looked like he was made of bronze.

Thanks.

Just a thought...
KT

irisheyes

Jun. 28, 2002, 06:28 AM

I missed this thread the first (or second) time around, but it definitely has me intrigued. I have a grey and it bothers me that I can't get his coat to shine, despite my regular, vigorous use of the curry brush (I was SO jealous when I saw all those gleaming greys at Rolex!). Anyway, I'm tempted to start him on both sunflower and flax seeds.

But could the addition of these seeds to his diet cause him to gain weight? Frankly, my guy is an air fern. He's 15.1 hands and is a bit round now although he only gets 1/3 scoop of feed (12%) twice/day and 1/2 flake of large square-bale hay. He is on pasture turnout, but I absolutely will NOT have him put into a grassless paddock as he would hate it. He's in regular work -- I ride 4-5 times a week for a minimum of 45 minutes. I'm increasing our trot and canter sets, hoping that might help.

What do you think, FW? Note that if I do indeed decide to feed the seeds, I'll wait until his mystery gland/jaw/cheek swelling is diagnosed and gone since I don't want to change anything with him until then (see Swollen Glands thread under Horse Care).

FairWeather

Jun. 28, 2002, 05:55 PM

Is there a reason that your horse needs to have grain? If at all possible I prefer my horses to have no grain--just pasture, grass and supplements (which I would mix with a handful of grain..haha!) If you are concerned with the weight gain, just try him on the flax first. I actually notice a difference with just 1/4 cup. My horses are so shiny now that I dont need to bathe them for events--they shine up better with a brush /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

irisheyes

Jun. 28, 2002, 09:28 PM

Other than the fact that I think he'd try to tell me he was starving to death, there is no real reason he needs the grain. So tomorrow, I'll stop at the feed store and see if I can find smaller bags of sunflower and flax seed just to see how it goes. I'll have our barn manager start him off slowly by mixing it with a handful of grain. Who knows, maybe by August, I'll finally have a shiny grey horse! Thanks much, FW.

irisheyes

Robby Johnson

Jun. 29, 2002, 03:36 AM

for cheap whole flax seeds. I can get them at my local health food store, but they're $1.99 pound loose, and at 1c. per feeding, I could easily be spending $40 or > on flax seeds.

I did the next best thing. I started Rhodey on Omega Horseshine (www.enreco.com) (http://www.enreco.com)). He also gets 1c. black oil sunflower seeds with each meal.

He is probably a different case study, since he'd just come off Equipoise and the racetrack, but his coat is just now starting to really have a gloss and bloom to it. Like, he can still be filthy, but has a shine through the dirt.

Keely M, I believe, feeds her glossy horse 3c. of sunflower seeds per feeding. I've never worked Rhodey up to this much. Maybe I should work him up to 2?

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

lauriep

Jul. 2, 2002, 08:12 AM

worked for or known has fed corn oil. The experts over the years cannot have been wrong.

Black oil sunflower seeds have a much more fragile shell than the striped version, which is why it is the most popular birdseed with so may kinds of birds. I am interested to hear that horses find them pallatable, though. The oil they provide would definitely be good for a coat.

Laurie

FairWeather

Jul. 2, 2002, 09:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
worked for or known has fed corn oil. The experts over the years cannot have been wrong.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, its been known to happen /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
However, I dont think that corn oil is wrong, per se--Its a great tool for packing on weight (aka FAT), however its just not something that I like to feed to an animal I expect to perform as an athelete, only because it has been so processed. Hence the natural fats--flax, sunflower etc.

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 2, 2002, 10:04 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I am interested to hear that horses find them pallatable, though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SOMEBODY posted a picture of a horse attacking a birdfeeder. Hehehehe.

Every single horse in my barn has been tried on a handful... and they ALL love 'em.

Thanks again, FW. (sorry about resurrecting this thread... yet again.)

Just a thought...
KT

FairWeather

Jul. 2, 2002, 10:35 AM

lolol--I use mine as treats! they would eat 50 lbs if I let them /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
No worries KT--You know this is the thread that wont die, right??
There is something slightly supernaturally eerie about it /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 2, 2002, 11:10 AM

Ok... you owe me BIG time.

Here is a list of almost 270 feed suppliers in Arkansas. Now, I am not familiar with the geography of your state, so I don't know what's close to Little Rock... but crackie, there should be someone there to help.

I have to admit, I did try telephoning Acme feed supply in Little Rock for you... but "Earl" or whatever his name was, was out, so I couldn't find out whether or not they carry it. Anyway, I was killing myself as his accent was so cute... I could barely understand him. I'm sure he thought the same thing about me (LOL)

ANYWAY! Happy telephoning. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://www.oldwesttown.net/Feed_Suppliers/arkansas_feed_suppliers_1-50.htm

If that doesn't work, e-mail : 74512.2455@compuserve.com They are the contact for US sales of Canadian flax (website: http://www.tjpmd.com/buyflax1.htm) Hope this helps. I figure I owe you for the advice on the Dirt Devil... not only does it clean Mr. RRB beautifully, BUT, it also keeps the dressing room on my trailer spic and span!

FairWeather... LOL yup, this old dog just won't lay down and DIE.

Just a thought...
KT

[This message was edited by KT 1900 on Jul. 02, 2002 at 03:39 PM.]

Liberty

Jul. 7, 2002, 09:14 PM

Number one - my birdfeeder is no longer in danger of an equine "attack", and;

Number two - is that it can dress up the most unlikely places (see attached pic). /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tannenwald Trakehner

Jul. 7, 2002, 09:26 PM

I have some of those unlikely flowers coming up also!

We started the flax & sunflower seeds about 2 months ago and it really seems to have made a difference. And an added benefit is that even the picky kids now eat their vitamin E capsules whole, since they are used to running into the larger seeds in their buckets!

And of course, pony just loves it that there is something IN his bucket, which used to just carry the scent of grain with his vitamins!

Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

FairWeather

Jul. 10, 2002, 05:00 AM

I'll have to take pictures of my guys. I simply have never seen them shine so much--and Phinny (the eternal hard keeper) is actually getting some fat over his ribs! His neck and topline is changing and he's just looking great.

And of course I love the added Sunflower benefit--My manure pile looks like Martha Stewart designed it /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

Robby Johnson

Jul. 10, 2002, 06:15 AM

And thank you, KH, for that research! I can only imagine how bad it was when you spoke with Earl on the phone. You are a saint for that!

Robby

You may be only one person in the world, but you may also be the world to one person.

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 10, 2002, 08:14 AM

Glad you finally saw it!!!

Of course, I don't know if it's going to do any good...

But give Earl a great big Yankee "Hiya" for me (teehee hee hee)

Just a thought...
KT

Pixie Dust

Jul. 10, 2002, 08:42 AM

Well, I don't know if it's my imagination, but the coats do seem glossy as in more slippery and easier to groom. I've been feeding the sunflower seeds & flax. The number one reason I prefer that to oil is the fact that they do not go rancid the way oil can. I also like the fact that it is just cleaner; dealing with oil in a dusty barn is kind of gross.

Superheroes of the universe, unite! http://www.allmightysenators.com/super.html

http://hometown.aol.com/bgoosewood/index.html

LMH

Jul. 10, 2002, 09:34 AM

Ok ok Ok I am jumping in here-after 5 pages I am finally raising an eyebrow...

this may sound very odd-but any chance of choking somehow on the shells??

SO if I am to get this correct-Black OILED sunflower seeds, 900 cal per cup....

jeesh

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

FairWeather

Jul. 10, 2002, 10:25 AM

LMH--I've not had any problem at all, and feed them right out of my hand. They are surprisingly brittle. I cant answer for anyone else though...

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

Therese

Jul. 10, 2002, 10:44 AM

I can't see how a horse could choke on the shells.

The black OIL (no -ed) seeds are maybe 2-3x the size of an oat if that. Much smaller than the Strongid or Strategy pellets.

I like them, easy to feed, not messy like oil, and Kalinka snarfs them down. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

--Therese
****************************
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."

-Douglas Adams The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy

irisheyes

Jul. 10, 2002, 11:12 AM

Just this weekend, I picked up five pounds each of both black oil sunflower and flax seeds from my local feed store -- I started off with small amounts just to make sure my guy liked them. I tasted both of them first to see if they were palatable before giving them to him and thought they were rather good. My pony agreed as he gobbled them down.

The black oil sunflower seeds are quite different from the striped ones that we are used to for human snacks. They aren't salted, they are quite a bit smaller and their shells are much softer. No fear of woody shells getting stuck in his throat or anywhere else.

He's getting 1/4 cup of each with each feeding and his grain has been cut to two cups from 1/3 scoop (sorry, FW, I can't take him off grain entirely). I'll report back in a few weeks on how they shine up a grey coat.

irisheyes

Liberty

Jul. 10, 2002, 11:35 AM

The Tractor Supply Co. store in my area sells 50-lb bags of them for around $10.00, and they put them on sale occasionally for around $9.50.

FairWeather

Jul. 10, 2002, 11:39 AM

irish--I was simply being rhetorical--you can feed whatever you want obviously /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif You know what your horse needs, not me /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

xcjumper

Jul. 10, 2002, 02:31 PM

OK Guys, I am getting to this a little late in the game (and I'll have to admit I didn't read all 5 pages). What I'm getting is that the sunflower seeds/flax seeds will shine 'em up real well, but is it a good weight gainer? My skinny TB needs some weight and I recently turned to the expensive as s*#t rice bran. I would like to use some thing cheaper and something that would not upset CA/Phos ratio. There is no problem with that correct? Also, I currently feed Beet pulp soaked. Is it ok to put the sunflower seeds and flax into the wet beet pulp along with his vits and joint supps?

Now for my little addition on the corn oil topic. My Vet told me the other day (when he suggested adding some kind of oil for weight) that he has "heard" (not proven research)that the Vegi oils could possibly inhibit the absorption of the water soluable vitamins. Just a thought!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Thanks everyone! /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Jul. 11, 2002, 04:26 AM

Yup.

It's the thread that JUST WON'T DIE.

We need to get you a white COTH cap and decorate it with sunflower and flax seeds.

<KT giggles, giggle, chuckle, as the Twilight Zone theme plays in the background.>

Just a thought...
KT

P.S. For all you folks late to the game YES, IT REALLY, REALLY, WORKS. Read all 5 pages... or at least skim em.

Therese

Aug. 9, 2002, 07:23 AM

I found this on another board. I know some of it was covered earlier in the thread, but this is as full a list of what's in flax as I've seen, too bad they couldn't find the same for sunflowers...

ANALYSIS OF FLAX SEED: Protein - 24% Moisture - 4% Total Fiber-32.5% Soluble Fiber-10.5%; Insoluble Fiber - 22% Ash - 3.4% Total Fat - 38% Total Saturated Fat - 3% Total Monounsaturated Fat - 6% Total Polyunsaturated - 29% Linoleic Acid - 7%; Linolenic Acid - 22%.
per 100 gr of flax: Thiamin - .03 mg Riboflavin - .1 mg Niacin - 5 mg Pyridoxine - 10 mg Pantothenic Acid - 7 mg Calcium - 410 mg Phosphate - 880 mg Sodium - 32 mg Potassium - 880 mg Iron - 8.3 mg Magnesium - 750 mg Zinc - 12 mg Copper - 1 mg Manganese - 2.1 mg Boron 3 mg Chromium - 0.5 mg Vitamin E - 0.6 I.U. Vitamin A - 10 I.U. g/100 gr. of Protein: Alamine - 4.0 g Arginine - 10.8 g Aspartic Acid - 10.0 g Cystine - 3.8 g Glutamic - 20.2 g Glycine - 6.0 g Histidine - 2.9 g Isoleucine - 4.6 g Leucine - 6.2 g Lysine - 3.9 g Methionine - 2.3 g Phenylalanine - 4.5 g Proline - 4.5 g Serine - 3.2 g Threonine - 4.6 g Tryptophan - 2.3 g Tyrosine - 2.7 g Valine - 5.2 g.

HERE'S A LITTLE BLURB ABOUT SUNFLOWER SEEDS: High-protein food, with more protein than the grains. rich in minerals; iron and zinc are plentiful.The high amount of oil in sunflower seeds as polyunsaturated fats, essential linoleic acid, and vitamin E . They are about 25 percent protein, have a good fibre content, and are rich in the B vitamins also, particularly in thiamine, pyridoxine, niacin, and pantothenic acid. With their high potassium and low sodium and with zinc, iron, and calcium all at good levels, sunflower seeds are a very mineral-rich food. The vitamin D that gets stored in these sun-filled seeds helps the utilisation of calcium. Copper, manganese, and phosphorus levels are also relatively high; they are lower in magnesium than in calcium, which is different from other seeds.

...really, I just couldn't let the thread die... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

--Therese
****************************
"There is a trick to flying.
The trick is to throw yourself at the ground...and miss"
-Douglas Adams So Long and Thanks for All the Fish

beameup

Aug. 9, 2002, 09:11 AM

i'm another one who's late to the party - just noticed this thread. i'm going to start my guys on the sunflower seeds and flax as soon as i can pick it up at the feed store (hopefully today). i'm the gal with the hundred year old horse (just kidding - he's 30) and maybe it'll perk up his appetite a bit. sounds like it would be great for my other guys too. thanks for all that thorough information. i'll let you know how they fare. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CoolMeadows

Aug. 9, 2002, 09:26 AM

I posted that on the forum you saw it on. I also posted it here. I was wondering if mixing flax, sunflower and soy along with calcium would provide decent vitamins and minerals without breaking the bank. If you have one horse, supplementing is no big deal, but think about feeding a barn full!

My biggest problem is that flax, soy and sunflower seeds all have completely inverted levels of calcium and phospherous, just like rice bran. This worries me. Phosphorous needs at least equal amounts of calcium to be digested. If there's not enough calcium when phospherous is ingested, the horse's body will take calcium from bones. Not a good thing.... Maybe it's related to the trend of horses on flax and sunflowers eating dirt??

Also, it appears that too much phospherous is a leading cause of enteroliths and their related colics.

So I guess I answered my own question. I'd be afraid that I'd never have the balance right and would be doing more harm than good. My guys are currently on Select II multi-vitamins which I love, but am going through sooo much of it.

I found Maxum Crumbles by Horse Health which looks comparable to Select, other than Biotin and is $36 for 25 pounds (200 to 400 days worth per horse). It ends up about $2.7 to $5.40 per horse per month rather than $18 - $20 per horse per month.

Deb413

Aug. 9, 2002, 10:14 AM

Beameup-got Dixie on them. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif LOVES them. At first was not certain, but now can not wait for them after I ride. Goes right to her food bucket looking for them. Cheap treat too! I have joined the crowd and got the 25 bag. The poor guy I share my townhouse garage with must think I am starting a tack shop with all my riding gear hanging off the wall and buckets of treats and supplements. /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I live in my own little world, but it's ok, they know me here.

NinaL aka Chrissy

Aug. 9, 2002, 10:45 AM

Remember that the Ca/P ratio is based upon the total diet. So, it really depends upon how much you feed of each component of the diet.

First of all, it seems that most people feed sunflower seeds as a supplement (maybe one cup or 8 oz. daily). So, if your 1200 lb. horse is eating 2x his body weight (24 lbs daily) then 8 oz. is not going to make much of a difference!

In addition, if you are feeding timothy hay and oats you are already in big trouble with your Ca/P ratio and the addition of 1/2 lb. of sunflower seeds is not going to make a very big difference.

One of the advantages of feeding forage balanced rations such as Buckeye or Strategy is that they are already balanced with respect to the type of hay that is being fed. If you are not feeding one of those types of feeds than it behooves you to sit down and figure out if your Ca/P ratio is okay. The range is actually 1.1:1 up to 12:1 and I have seen references that say up to 20 parts Ca to 1 part Phosphorous is okay but maybe not ideal.

If your ratio is skewed it is a good idea to get a straight calcium supplement rather than the more common dicalcium phosphate supplement.

I find that usually the other minerals tend to be correct in most equine diets. Really, you can drive yourself nuts trying to figure out if you are feeding the right amount of every mineral.

Of course, if you are in a selenium deficient area you may have a deficiency but that's a whole nother ballgame.

Nina

*SERAPH*

Aug. 9, 2002, 10:46 AM

Okay, so if I fed my horse a cup of seeds and say, maybe half a cup of whole flax, along with
his Equine senior, what could I give him to balance out the phosphorous/calcium ratio??? (Without breaking the bank?)

"The world needs Dreamers and the world needs Doers;
But above all, the world needs Dreamer's who Do."

CoolMeadows

Aug. 9, 2002, 10:59 AM

You can get dicalcium phosphate which has a correct calcium:phosphorous for around $5.50 for 64 days worth. Let me see if I can find it.

Here's the link: Dicalcium Phosphate supplement (http://www.americanlivestock.com/product_0_15062.mhtml)

If you look further down on Horse Care I posted an analysis of Flax and Soymeal as well. I'd like to hear a vet's opinion. Someone did reply that if I supplemented with calcium, I'd still have other things out of whack, like magnesium.

CoolMeadows

Aug. 9, 2002, 11:05 AM

Now I'm even more confused!

What if your horse is eating a complete feed with balanced Calcium:Phosphorous but gets soooo little grain that it probably makes no difference.

And to add to my confusion, I've always thought Timothy hay had a correct Calcium balance, but Orchard grass has more Phosphorous than Calcium. So one of us is A$$-backwards.

And I'd be happy to toss my guys a sprinkle of flax, sunflowers and soy but only if I was comfortable that they're getting enough calcium.
You said a straight calcium supplement is better than a dicalcium phosphate, so where do I get the straight calcium??

This would be how I'm feeling about supplements right now! /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_redface.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[This message was edited by CoolMeadows on Aug. 09, 2002 at 03:14 PM.]

NinaL aka Chrissy

Aug. 9, 2002, 12:50 PM

You are right about timothy hay having a correct Ca/P ratio but the ratio is narrow - more like 1.1:1. When you feed it with a grain like oats especially if you are feeding more than a pound or two of oats per day your Ca/P ratio will be inverted because the amount of calcium provided by the timothy hay can't balance the amount of phosphorous being provided by the oats. In that case you would be better off feeding alfalfa or another legume hay.

Which is what I was trying to say in my post - now that I reread it I can see where I confused you. So, neither of us is a$$backwards I'm just guilty of the sin of omission!

In any case, I doubt that you would throw your horse's Ca/P ratio out of whack by feeding 1/2 cup of sunflower seeds daily if you are feeding a balanced feed plus timothy hay. However, if you're really analytical, you could just figure out how many grams of each he is getting and then add the amount of each you would be adding.

Calcium carbonate is one supplement that does not add any phosphorous to the diet.

Nina who used to balance a lot of different rations before there was such a thing as spreadsheets to help you do it

ladyfarrier

Aug. 10, 2002, 04:31 PM

I followed this (never ending :-) thread for quite a while, then I too jumped on the bandwagon. Horses loved the (black oiler) sunflower seeds (they were already getting ground flaxseed).

Then one day when I was picking up a paddock, I noticed in *one* pile of manure...over 24 seeds that were sprouting. My question is....these were just the sprouts I could count on the top of the pile....I didn't go rummaging around through it, but it seems to beg the question.....if these seeds are just passing through the horse, what good are they doing?

Was I supposed to grind them first (I didn't)?

This was in a youngster with good teeth and no weight or chewing problems.

Am I missing something? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 10, 2002, 04:47 PM

But I mix mine together with his Legacy and he apparently chews up all up. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My boy had a floating 6 months ago, and is due for another very shortly... how about yours?

Just a thought...
KT

P.S. Fairweather... what's that song at Disneyland that never ends and is very, very, annoying? It kinda reminds me of this thread...hahahahah. And FAIRWEATHER.... this thread has MIGRATED to another BB!!! OMG, you're going to be F-A-M-O-U-S!!!!

Bumpkin

Aug. 10, 2002, 06:17 PM

Ok bought some Flax today.
10 pounds @.65 per pound made 32 baggies with Black Oil Sunflower Seeds.

1 cup Flax & 1 cup Sunflower Seeds.
Is this okay?

Does this mean I do not need to feed Corn Oil? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

ladyfarrier

Aug. 10, 2002, 06:39 PM

KT1900: This is a yearling....yes, they go through mouth changes, but currently he isn't losing any caps, etc. Eats his ration and hay with no problems. Cleaned the sunflower seeds right up, but evidently they were not being digested and just passing through him. I can't honestly tell if the other horses are having the same issue, as he is paddocked separately overnight.

I can think of cheaper sources of "roughage"... /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

xcjumper

Aug. 11, 2002, 08:21 AM

I have the same thing happen and have wondered the same thing myself. Mine aren't sprouted but I do see quite a few in the manure.

~Run fast, Jump high. What else is there?~

ladyfarrier

Aug. 11, 2002, 09:01 AM

High temperatures, and rain prevented me from picking the paddock for a couple of days, and that's when I saw all the sprouts. Since his was the only paddock I neglected, I'm not really sure if the rest of the horses were passing them through or not.....

They sure like the seeds....but the whole point was the seeds were to be of benefit <g>....I'm just not sure how much nutritional value they are getting out of them this way.....would appreciate any and all opinions.

Bumpkin

Aug. 18, 2002, 09:51 AM

So is there such a thing as too much Sunflower and Flax?

/infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

suz

Aug. 18, 2002, 04:46 PM

my guys love their sunflower and flax seeds,,they are getting 1/2 cup mixed once daily for a month now. they are also getting blue seal demand,,just one cup daily,,plus grass and hay. they look great,,are out 24/7,,don't even want to come in for breakfast,,so they are getting fed in the evening before being turned out again.i also notice that my totally anxious and neurotic gelding is so much calmer. should i up their ration of seeds to increase their oil content? does a shiny coat indicate enough oil in their diet? what supplements should i give in addition to this diet? they are draft crosses and haflingers,,so i want to make sure they get as much oil as necessary. this thread won't die because it is wonderful! tia,,suz.

Oldenburg Mom

Aug. 18, 2002, 05:59 PM

Hmmm. Yearling, huh?

Haven't a cluuuuue.

Can we page the mighty FairWeather? Perhaps she'll know.

All I have to say is RRB has been getting them since... gee...whenever. The date should be on this post. And nary a one has sprouted. Having said that, the birds LOVE him manure... just love it. I never get the "big stuff" it's always picked to shreds... maybe THAT's why I've never had one sprout!!!!

Just a thought...
KT

beameup

Aug. 19, 2002, 02:28 PM

i started two of my guys on the sunflower seeds. one guy loved them, the other one ate two mouthfuls and then refused any more, but he tends to be anorexic anyway (to make it worse, he's very thin - won't eat anything)
deb - glad that dixie likes them. give the little piggy a kiss for me.

fernie fox

Aug. 21, 2002, 07:05 PM

I could'nt find one seed and no sign of any sunflowers,I was rather disappointed,they are such happy flowers,I don't think I'd mind a few around the place.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bumpkin

Sep. 10, 2002, 08:52 AM

Bumpkining this up /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Miss Perfect

Sep. 10, 2002, 10:03 AM

Just found this post, and I'm convinced. My gelding is on grass pasture 24/7 and gets 4lbs of Buckeye Grass Plus a day. Will adding 1 cup each of flax and black oil sunflower seeds a day upset the balance of nutrients in the buckeye? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 10, 2002, 10:03 AM

I can't believe this thread is back!

Having fed sunflower and flax throughout the summer, I have this to say:

The horses are shinier, softer, and have better hoof quality (they get other supplementation as well, but EFA's can't hurt);

The horses accept other foreign matter (like vitamin E capsules) in their grain buckets easier;

We have opted out of feeding psyllium one week a month by feeding ground flax every day. You can feed 10 times the weight of flax for the same money as psyllium husks, and flax has nutritional value;

There are some sunflower plants blooming, but nothing appreciable considering the sheer number of sunflower seeds we have fed;

We are now taking flax ourselves daily and notice an improvement in "coat quality";

and

We have hooked several other non-BB-participating horse owners on this stuff.

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

FairWeather

Sep. 10, 2002, 10:37 AM

Love it.

So Do we win for longest Horse Care Thread ever??

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com/salehorse.htm)

LMH

Sep. 10, 2002, 05:14 PM

Another article that mentions sunflower seeds---this is on weight gain and feeding oil etc-but mentions SUNFLOWER SEEDS.

Sorry if this was already posted:

http://www.horsebackhunter.com/E-Health/Articles/KeepWeightOn.htm

Another:
http://www.eques.com.au/skinny.htm

Another:
http://www.straightfromthehorse.com.au/natural_feeding.htm

This one is a site for "natural horse feeding" but it mentions sunnies as well:
http://www.herbalhorse.com/diet/

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

[This message was edited by LMH on Sep. 10, 2002 at 09:23 PM.]

[This message was edited by LMH on Sep. 10, 2002 at 09:25 PM.]

Duramax

Sep. 10, 2002, 06:18 PM

I finally got around to reading this thread- wow! I think I'm convinced.

Can I substitute the flax/sunflower mix for rice bran? It sure would be a lot less expensive!

LMH

Sep. 11, 2002, 04:45 AM

I have been feeding flax for almost a year but my 4yo won't eat it....he won't eat LOTS of things-sorta picky. No to rice bran, ultimate finish....he is currently eating Empower that has flax in it so maybe I will just let that be.

I will give a small bag of seeds a try.....someone mentioned soybean oil with seeds on my "poll" thread...more details on that please?

Now you converts-is that ALL you are feeding-flax and sunnies or still some grain??? What about vitamins etc???

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 11, 2002, 09:30 AM

I suppose you could feed just seeds, if your horse got all its other nutrients from hay. The pony claims that all he gets is seeds... The only thing I would wonder about, if trying to only feed flax, is that thing about cyanide from flax that has not been heat processed. If we fed a larger quantity of flax I would look into that issue more thoroughly.

But we top dress seeds on the regular grain portions (1-2.5 pounds grain per horse), and are fairly conservative with the seed feeding. We add 1-5 ounces of soybean oil to the grain as well, to aid digestion/slow gut-emptying. We always added the oil, but reduced the amount a bit when we started feeding seeds.

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 11, 2002, 09:41 AM

It just won't DIE!!!

I've stopped grinding the flax... for about oh, two months. I haven't noticed a difference in his coat... still shiny, soft, just wonderful!

I DO mix the sunflower and flax with his regular feed. Let's see, I'm feeding 1 qt Legacy (it's got molasses in it) one cup sunflower seeds and 1/2 cup flax (twice a day). My guy is a quarter horse and he weighs about 1000 lbs.

I'm thinking about upping the flax... but want to see what the general response is here.

Just a thought...
KT

HelenD

Sep. 11, 2002, 10:29 AM

Actually, the thing about Flax and cynanide is nothing to worry about, according to a June 2001 article in www.thehorse.com (http://www.thehorse.com) (Article #961) by Karen Briggs. Here's the blurb;

"Horse owners wanting to take advantage of flaxseed's omega-3 content can rest easy. Flaxseed, or linseed, has a reputation as a toxic substance to horses when fed uncooked--earned because the seeds contain a small amount of cyanogenetic glycosides and enzymes that allow the glycosides to release cyanide. This poison is released when flaxseed plants are damaged by frost, drought, or processing. Since cyanide is readily absorbed in the GI tract, flax products could potentially prevent oxygen release in the blood, leading to sudden death.

However, we now know that glycosidase enzymes are destroyed in the equine stomach and small intestine long before they can trigger cyanide release. So it appears there is no risk of cyanide toxicosis when horses are fed raw flaxseed.
"

In riding a horse we borrow freedom.
~Helen Thomson

HelenD

Sep. 11, 2002, 10:45 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I have been feeding flax for almost a year but my 4yo won't eat it<<<<snip>>><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Have you tried wetting it (soaking it) first then adding it? I've had some luck with getting my pickier eater to go for it by starting off with that approach. If they won't eat that, I add a few alfalfa cubes to the "soaking" mixture and mix it in with the rest of the portion. Works Wonders.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
<snip>
Now you converts-is that ALL you are feeding-flax and sunnies or still some grain??? What about vitamins etc???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do mix it in with the regular grain portion, but my horse now barely gets grain, so...but when I had a hard keeper, he got sunflowers and flax in addition to his grain (with it) w/ bigger portions as well.

My current, very easy keeper is getting per feeding, 2x a day:

1/3 cup whole flax
1 cup sunflower seeds
2 cups Horseman's edge 10% pellets
1 Scoop MSM
1 Scoop Accel OR 1 scoop Purina 12:12:12 (because he started eating dirt recently)

He also gets a Probiotic in the AM and electrolytes as needed on very hot or heavy exercise days. I throw in a few alfalfa cubes now and then too. I'll probably drop the Accel later on to see if he returns to eating dirt of it was just a "let's see if THIS freaks her out" stage. That horse is kinda just like that. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

This horse is on a small and drought limited pasture and his hay (about 1.5-2% body wieght per day) is grass - Orchard grass w/ some clover. If I think of it tonight, I'll take a picture to show how incredibly shiny his coat is - even without daily grooming. It's really pretty amazing how shiny and wonderful he looks under all the dirt. And WOW, after you run a curry comb over him - incredible. I scoff (in secret of course) at anyone who buys Show Sheen knowing how easy AND FAST it is to get the real shine to just GLOW.

Helen
(Oh, yeh, and I guess a little vinegar rinse after a bath doesn't hurt that shine either)

In riding a horse we borrow freedom. ~Helen Thomson

LMH

Sep. 11, 2002, 10:51 AM

OK-so if I am replacing pure calories...my boy gets 6oz of oil per day...that is 1500 calories I believe (1cup=8oz=2000 calories).

So, I *think* I read 1 cup of Sunnies is 900 cal????

so somewhere between 1.5-2 cups sunnies a day would trade my calories-but not necessarily my fat intake.

Am I getting there?

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 11, 2002, 06:01 PM

Awww heck.

Just take the plunge and go for a cup... mine are always heaping.

It literally takes 7-10 days before you really start to notice a difference.

GO FOR IT KID!

Just a thought...
KT

LMH

Sep. 11, 2002, 06:05 PM

Take the plunge? But I have been told I am "type A"-although *I* certainly think I am the laid back kinda girl....

Take the plunge??? Must analyze this to death!!!!

Ok OK OK OK----I will start with 1/4 cup and build from there.

*Take deep deep breath*-I can take a plunge. I can take a plunge. I can take a plunge. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif:D:D

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

LCR

Sep. 11, 2002, 06:18 PM

When I was purchasing the bag of black oil sunflower seed, I saw a bag of Safflower seed. The spelling may not be correct. This does not have any hulls on the seed and the seed is about size of small corn grains. The protein and fat is quite high. Do you think this seed is treated with anything to keep it from sprouting or anything harmful to horses?

stegall

Sep. 12, 2002, 03:27 AM

well, I saw this thread at the begining of summer, and was interested, so I started the girls on sunflower seeds (1/2 cup 2x's daily) and I have definately noticed the difference. the bay and chestnut are shinier than normal, although with the grays its harder to tell, but they feel softer. My QH filly (the chestnut) actually likes the seeds, and feels they are a treat. I will occassionlly rattle the bag when she walks up to the barn, and she will come over for a small taste. I am feeding the same grain and hay, but added the seeds to the ration, and it appears to have worked well.

Boy-the things you learn from the COTH BB /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LMH

Sep. 12, 2002, 04:43 AM

For those interested in the Ca:Ph issue, here is what I found

1c sunnies (these are the striped ones-can't find the stuff on black oil):

128g=1cup
Ca=89mg
Ph=1478mg

Now would anyone like to do the math on one cup?
On 2 cups?

How much effect would that have on a horse eating 20lbs or so of hay, grass ,and grain assuming all else is "balanced"?

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 12, 2002, 06:00 AM

I feed alf... where the CA is MUCH higher than the PA.

HAHAHAHAHA.

That's solved my problem.

Thank you!

Just a thought...
KT

P.S. Take the plunge... take the plunge... and start with 1/4 cup? Heck, start with 1/2. Don't forget the flax too.

Sandbarhorse

Sep. 12, 2002, 06:59 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
For those interested in the Ca:Ph issue, here is what I found

1c sunnies (these are the striped ones-can't find the stuff on black oil):

128g=1cup
Ca=89mg
Ph=1478mg

Now would anyone like to do the math on one cup?
On 2 cups?

How much effect would that have on a horse eating 20lbs or so of hay, grass ,and grain assuming all else is "balanced"?

_The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remembered this item posted by Master Tally on the hay thread and was wondering (not being good at math), if the higher phosphorous ratio of the sunflower seeds is anything to be concerned about:
"Too much phosphorous is far worse than too much calcium. Phosporous needs to be balanced out with the calcium, and if the ratio is too high on the phosphorous side, the body will strip the bones for the calcium."

I am still considering, but haven't yet made the plunge, putting my horses on the sunflower seeds. Also, does anyone know if the black oil seeds may have a different ratio?

LMH

Sep. 12, 2002, 07:34 AM

I would assume it would not matter-depends on waht else you feed....remember flax is reversed as well-unless it is Ca fortified like the flax from horsetech or enreco....

Also oats are reversed if anyone is adding that.

Good ole math guru JB said one or two cups would not have an overall effect-even at these ratios...

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 12, 2002, 08:47 AM

Gee, I didn't know that.

Hmmmm.

JB quit goofing off on the breeding topic and come play here...

Just a thought...
KT

Sandbarhorse

Sep. 12, 2002, 10:08 AM

AAAh, JB, what would we do without her! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 12, 2002, 12:32 PM

If you consider the ration of Ca:P in sunflower seeds, it looks awful. But put this in perspective: 1400+ mg of P per cup (a typical daily helping) is less than 1 1/2 grams of P. The diet should not be so tightly balanced that it can't handle an extra gram or two of Phos. /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

If it is just too frightening, throw about 4 extra strength Tums in the bucket and the ratio will balance right out. /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And on the grinding issue: we started out not grinding the flax. After bench testing whole and ground flax against psyllium, we decided that the greater surface area created by the grinding allowed the flax to act more like psyllium in grabbing water and sand. We concluded that grinding made the daily flax a more viable substitute for psyllium.

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Sep. 12, 2002, 05:28 PM

LMH, KT, Sandbarhorse - /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have a degree in computer science, a minor in math, and grew up with a PhD (Physics) dad - what can I say? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LMH

Sep. 13, 2002, 04:41 AM

OK-sunnies are added and gobbled down! I am getting attacked by my little monsters to get at those things!

Do you really think I will be able to trade this for oil???? It doesn't seem possible-but if so, oh so convenient!

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 13, 2002, 08:25 AM

Have faith and start counting the days.

JB - Well! I'm so impressed!

You've just been enlisted into our little cadre of experts:

Chemistry: BustersMom
Math & Physics: YOU!!!

Just a thought...
KT

Sep. 13, 2002, 11:04 AM

KT - I never said I was GOOD at Physics... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LMH

Sep. 13, 2002, 01:55 PM

OK-neither of my boys drink water in their stalls...Julian drinks MAYBE 1 inch all day or all night. Milo maybe 2-3 inches (he learned this super behavior from J)....they just drink in the pasture.

They have had sunnies for 3 meals now and GUZZLE a couple of inches a piece after they eat /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I am not complaining but find it interesting-anyone else notice greater water intake?

The 3 rules of riding:
Whoa means whoa
If it ain't right it is wrong
If it pokes out stick it

clickstar

Sep. 13, 2002, 06:27 PM

my mare's been getting 1 cup each of sunnies and flax for over 2 weeks now. i just moved her to school, and we have to muck our own stalls and i have noticed she is peeing a LOT! she's always been a drinker and a pee-er, but wow! i know a lot of stuff has changed, but it did cross my mind that the seeds might have contributed...interesting to see you have noticed that...

anyways, i can handle a little more pee for THAT INCREDIBLE SHINE! i feel so good to have a horse that looks so damn well cared for!

Duramax

Sep. 13, 2002, 07:07 PM

He he he... we should track the progress of sunflower seed stock now that all of us are running out to buy big ol' bags of the stuff... /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 14, 2002, 08:54 AM

On that topic, anyone notice the dramatic increase in sunflower seed prices since the beginning of the summer? In May they could be bought here for under $10 per 50 pounds, and now they are in the area of 13-14 for the same bag! One feed store guy told me it was because of drought in the Dakotas... Darn weather!

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

FairWeather

Sep. 16, 2002, 06:53 AM

I hadnt noticed an increased water intake, but I wasnt really paying attention for that matter. More water is always a good thing though /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

My 50 pound bags are running around 12$

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
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Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 16, 2002, 08:33 AM

Can you believe this is still going around?

Look what you started!!! LOL

Just a thought...
KT

Bumpkin

Sep. 17, 2002, 06:30 PM

WOW!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I put Elliot on the Flax and Sunflower for one month now and his coat is amazingly beautiful.
He was on the Sunflower by itself before, but the Flax just gave it something extra. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Bumpkin

Sep. 23, 2002, 05:27 AM

This was half way down the second page!!!
LOL

After the horse show last Saturday, I think I have a few "Believers" in the Sunflower/Flax mixture. They were astounded by his coat. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

FairWeather

Sep. 23, 2002, 07:50 AM

I can tell you that ten pounds of sunnies at a sitting is TOO much! Even when split in-between three voracious equines.

Winnie the bad decided to break into the barn for his favorite treat and share with his friends.
This was when he was on restriction for the colic friday evening (slobber/clover/dehydration related).

Second vet visit later and he's doing much better. Little stinker!

"Beer. Now there's a temporary solution."--Homer
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather.bizland.com)
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Oldenburg Mom

Sep. 23, 2002, 11:49 AM

Bad winnie, very baaaaaaaaaaad winnie.

Just a thought...
KT

Bumpkin

Sep. 27, 2002, 03:15 PM

Bumpkining up /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

cbv

Sep. 30, 2002, 06:04 PM

I have been following this discussion, though have not jumped on the bandwagon. But it made me start wondering about my filly's interest in thistle plants.

I noticed last year, much to my dismay that my she would eat thistle flowers...or at least pick at them (I am not great at keeping the fence line clean of weeds). But I never much stressed about the thistles cause I never thought horses would dine on them for the same reason I don't want to pull them up by hand...they have terribly painful nettles that continue to burn even after being removed from one's skin.

But I noticed her going for them again this year, and remebered this thread which got me to wondering. She picks at the flowers heads very gently and deliberately. Obviously she has not sickened from this snacking...and it made me wonder if she is actually onto something here...if the thistle seed is attractive to her for the same reason your horses like the sunflower seed.

Deb413

Oct. 1, 2002, 09:55 AM

Found this

http://www.rce.rutgers.edu/pubs/pdfs/fs062.pdf

and

http://www.meadowherbs.com/detox.htm

about milk thistles....gotta love Google /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dixie is addicted to sunflower seeds!

Deb413

Oct. 1, 2002, 10:00 AM

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif--then I find these...

http://www.kevinroderick.com/thistle.html

http://www.goatheads.com/yellowstar.html

guess you better know your thistles.....

Dixie is addicted to sunflower seeds!

cbv

Oct. 1, 2002, 10:08 AM

have also noticed my horses seem to like the dandelion greens when hand-grazing (yes my lawn has weeds as well). So both may actually have some benefit to them...althought the filly is the only one I have seen nibbling at the thistles.

bigbadbay

Oct. 9, 2002, 07:13 AM

Does anyone know how digestible (or not) the seed hulls are and what the possible effects they could have on a horse's digestive system?

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 9, 2002, 07:51 AM

but all I can say is my guy has had ZERO problem. Think of when they eat sticks (bleech.)

Just a thought...
KT

*jazmataz*

Oct. 9, 2002, 08:23 AM

and don't cause a problem with their digestive systems. In fact I read somewhere (maybe here) that they can help avoid sand colic. In any case, don't go shelling those sunflower seeds, just feed 'em!

BSH

Oct. 9, 2002, 09:33 AM

Shine costs more in sunny So. California as does everything else...

Anyone know if the black oil seeds are edible for humans??? My husband feeds and he may be into them!

Tannenwald Trakehner

Oct. 9, 2002, 08:16 PM

BSH, I eat the black oil seeds too. And I also eat the flax seeds...

And whoever mentioned sand colic above, it is flax that I have read to be the thing against sand, not sunflowers. On the other hand, the fiber in sunflower seeds can't hurt one bit.

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 10, 2002, 04:12 AM

Check out Home Desperate for Sunnies... they've usually got 50 lbs... and their prices are usually around $14, at least here on the east coast.

Plus, Lowes is usually somewhat cheaper than HD, so you might check there too.

Just a thought...
KT

BSH

Oct. 10, 2002, 05:39 AM

I fed my horses their expensive sunnies last night, also gave some to the cockatiel and they loved them. Any my husband will be even more cheerful feeding since he can munch along with the horses.

Can't wait for the shine:)

DrssgLvR3

Oct. 10, 2002, 08:02 AM

This truly is the thread that won't die! After reading this thread- thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I started my horses on the b.o. sunflwr seeds (1/2 c a.m. & p.m.). It has been a little over a month & they are both quite shiny! I have been most happy about my chesnut's coat. It was always dry & flakyish- no matter how much I groomed him. But the dryness is gone & he is slick & shiny! He also seems much more COMFORTABLE as before he was so ITCHY that he nearly constantly scratched himself on everything & anything he could find. He had begun to rub the hair off his face in places but that has stopped & some is beginning to grow back. I have been so pleased with the results! Thanks to all for sharing. I also ordered the NutraFlax since I couldn't find flax seeds anywhere. Hopefully that will come this week & we'll see how they do with that!

Miss Perfect

Oct. 10, 2002, 08:33 AM

I'm so glad I read this thread. Black Oil Sunnies + Flax = Shiney Happy Horse! After 1 month, he has this awesome Perma-Laquer look. A quick turn with the dandy brush and he's groomed. All dirt just slips right off him. Everytime I feed now, I get that REM song, 'Shiney Happy People', in my head. Of course, I substitute 'Horsie' for 'People'. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

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Bumpkin

Oct. 10, 2002, 06:26 PM

Sunday is baggie day.

My new stable buddy, LH, and I will be sitting in the "Riders Lounge" putting 50 pounds of black sunnies and 30 pounds of flax seed in baggies for our horses /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CTM

Oct. 10, 2002, 06:56 PM

My horses are getting so shiny from the sunflower seeds! And they are really slick to the touch - someone thought I had sprayed Show Sheen on them. And my finicky older horse loves them. I'm glad I read this topic.

Bumpkin

Oct. 13, 2002, 03:51 PM

....makes approx 186 1 cup scoops of baggies /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

HelenD

Oct. 25, 2002, 08:37 AM

Just remembered to "bumpkin" this 'cause I mentioned it on another thread...

My vet commented on how shiney my gelding is.

It's pretty amazing.

Helen

(S)He doth nothing but talk of his horses.
~William Shakespeare

barngirl

Oct. 28, 2002, 08:28 PM

This is a great and informative thread... I have my gelding on the Sunflower seeds.. he absolutley loves them. I am hoping to add the flax seeds, as I would like a shinier coat. I have noticed that since he blew his summer coat his winter (YUCK!!) coat is very soft, but not overly shiny... but then again he is a mostly white dapple grey. I do lik ethe added fat benefit... He isn't underweight, but he tends to be constantly headed to the ribby side... He is on 6 quarts a day of very concentrated and balanced 14% pellets from Buckeye feeds... supposedly very similar to Stradegy, but out the corn and added sugars. He is doing pretty good on it and I was thinking about adding a weight builder... but it seems that his cup of sun flowers a day is helping. He has been on it for a while... I am thinking of upping it as FW seems to find feeding two cups doesn't hurt. And if he could get more fat that would be great. I don't want him rolly polly round, but I would like ot not see the ribs especially in the winter time. He is in a lot of work... at least 1hr day usually 5-6 days a week... And he is in great health... lots of muscle. I just would like to see a little more fat in tge right places. I really do think the sunflowers are helping... I can't wait to see if the flax seed will help his coat.
THanks to all for this most helpful thread. Oh and I am totally requesting a little dirty devil for christmas... thats if i don't break down and buy one first.!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I figure he loves the double headed massager... He shouldn't mind the hand held Vac!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

xcjumper

Oct. 28, 2002, 09:35 PM

I had my TB up to 3 cups per day until he put on weight and now he gets 2 cups per day. His weight is perfect. I haven't had any problems with feeding this amount

~Run fast, Jump high. What else is there?~

Duramax

Oct. 29, 2002, 08:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by barngirl:
Oh and I am totally requesting a little dirty devil for christmas... thats if i don't break down and buy one first.!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

/infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif A little dirty devil, eh? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 29, 2002, 09:07 AM

Will you PLEASE kill this thread!!!! OMG... we're on to 10 PAGES of this stuff....

How much longer can we possibly go on (and on and on and on and on) about Sunnies and Flaxies?

LOL.

Just a thought...
KT

P.S. Only 99 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

Bumpkin

Oct. 29, 2002, 10:10 AM

We loff this thread!!!

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 29, 2002, 10:12 AM

LOL

I know. It's kinda like a tunnel though. You know, it goes onandonandonandon...

Just a thought...
KT

P.S. Only 99 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

FairWeather

Oct. 29, 2002, 10:24 AM

haha!
Sunnies and flax RULE!
They will slowly phase out yucky sticky rancid-going oil!

Long live the sunnieflax clique /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

__________________________
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HelloAgain

Oct. 30, 2002, 06:59 AM

HA! I will not let it die. So, after reading the WHOLE ENTIRE thread, I am thinking of switching to Sunnies from corn oil as a high-fat top dress.

So, can you feed just the one or do you *always* have to mix with flax? There's a limit to what I can ask the feeders to fuss with.

Too bad you can't add sunnies to your smartpak!

Proud Member: Bull-snap Haters Clique, Michigan Clique, and Appaloosa Clique!

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 30, 2002, 07:09 AM

if you really HAD read the whole thread you'd realize that in the beginning FW suggested mixing the two together in a big bin!!!!

Just kidding... you might have missed it. I think it was in the beginning... first one or two pages.

Just a thought...
KT
SunnieFlax Clique member.

P.S. Only 98 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

HelloAgain

Oct. 30, 2002, 07:49 AM

But see, since I DID read the whole thread ( /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) I also read that the flax seeds are smaller and fall to the bottom...

Proud Member: Bull-snap Haters Clique, Michigan Clique, and Appaloosa Clique!

My Friend Flicka

Oct. 30, 2002, 03:29 PM

I am also late come to this thread, but I've read it pretty thoroughly. I definately am going to have to try adding a bit of black oil sunflower seed and flax as well to my kids' feed.

The dirt devil sub-thread intrigued me as well. For, those of you who've used these hand held vacuums on your horses, which models did you use? I've taken a look at the Dirt Devil website and others, and the reviews I've been reading seem to sum up to either too wimpy or too loud (and in one case too strong).

Thanks!

-When opportunity knocks, open the darned door.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 30, 2002, 06:24 PM

They're cheap, cheap, cheap.

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. Only 98 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

Duramax

Oct. 30, 2002, 06:41 PM

I think the flax helps a lot-- if not more than the sunnies themself!

Bumpkin

Oct. 30, 2002, 07:08 PM

Elliot ate the Sunnies for months, his coat looked nice, but when I started him on the Flax....WOW /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
What a difference.

Oldenburg Mom

Oct. 31, 2002, 03:45 PM

I've started eating the flax and my hair is getting very shiney (true) ... andandand, suddenly, grass is looking very appealing (well, maybe this is not true, but it is funny.)

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. Only 97 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

clickstar

Oct. 31, 2002, 05:39 PM

hey KT, will eating flax be the entrance ritual to our newfound clique?

proud member of the sunnieflax clique

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 1, 2002, 05:37 AM

You can't be admitted until you are eating more than one tongue-full a day.

That's my measurement, BTW. teehee.

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. Only 96 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

CC Rider

Nov. 1, 2002, 09:52 AM

I imagine all it will take for sunnies and flaxies to be available in Smartpaks is for someone to send them this Guinnes Book worthy thread /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Long live the thread! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Bumpkin

Nov. 2, 2002, 02:01 PM

Ellen at the Gift Horse laughs at my goings on about the Sunnie Flax feeding....so I took two weeks worth into her a week ago.
Well she was amazed, the horse with the sweet feed left his bowl of sweet feed and scooted the horse eating the Sunnie Flax mix out of the way and ate the whole thing!!!
She was shocked /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
So I took her to the feed store, showed her the ingredients and hopefully she will go back and purchase what she needs to keep those "spoiled horses" of hers happy, tehe /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Member & Recruiter Of The "Sunnieflax Clique"

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 2, 2002, 03:08 PM

you're soooo funny. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. Only 95 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

Bumpkin

Nov. 2, 2002, 04:33 PM

I also let someone at the barn add a bag to their bran mash today.....so perhaps another Sunnieflaxer in the making? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Member & Recruiter Of The "Sunnieflax Clique"

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 2, 2002, 04:46 PM

We've GOT to get a CoTH hat made up for FW covered in Sunnies and Flaxies.

Can you imagine her actually wearing it!!!!

HAHAHAHAHA

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. Only 96 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

barngirl

Nov. 3, 2002, 08:31 AM

Okay I know this is the never ending thread but...
Has anyone tried feeding the sunnies to weanlings?? I have a 5 month old weanling and like any other equine I have offered the seeds too he gobbles them up..I haven't given him that much, because I was a little worried. He is not suppose to get too much grain right now as he has just gotten over a contracted tendon... but he was also weaned last 3 weeks ago.. and he is a little ribbier than I would like. i know the sunnies are high in fat calories are they also high in protein too? Ideally I would like to add fat without the protein. he is on the Buckyeye growth sweet feed. He was just upped from 2 handfuls a day to 4 handfuls... which is almost a 1.5 quarts two times a day. Hope someone can help me.

Silly Mommy

Nov. 3, 2002, 04:23 PM

OK, so it's been a month, and I have one horse in particular - long/tall/narrow, forever skinny, older (16yrs)TB broodmare in retraining to be a schoolie, cribber, who has put on 50-100 lbs, her scurfy skin is gone and her coat is fabulous!!!

Her daughter who is of similar build, but wider has put on the weight I've been trying to get on her with oil (I'd rather have a skinny 16.2 (going to be 17hh +) three year old than a fat with joint problems one from over feeding any day).

Coats look fabulous, and the boarders all want me to start theirs on 'em too!!!

BREATHE!!! Oxygen is a good thing!
Sunnieflax Clique, PITA Clique (even if no one cares that my butt is broken)
"poster formerly known as Silly Mommy"

Oldenburg Mom

Nov. 3, 2002, 05:12 PM

talk to your vet and let me know would you?

I just can't believe they'd be bad for the babies.

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. Only 9+3 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

Bumpkin

Nov. 9, 2002, 11:45 AM

I convinced LH, (a COTH lurker), to put her Lukie on the Sunnieflax diet, and now a few weeks later he is so shiney!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Even though he has a winter coat, the shine is lovely. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Member & Recruiter Of The "Sunnieflax Clique"

Bumpkin

Dec. 7, 2002, 06:53 PM

Wow this was all the way back on page 6!!!

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique"

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 7, 2002, 07:09 PM

And I thought this had FINALLY died a nice quiet death.

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. Only 64 days till I pick up my youngster. Yahoo.

JusGallop

Dec. 7, 2002, 07:25 PM

I just read on another thread that the sunnies she found were vitamin enriched for the birds. Is this the same stuff you guys are feeding?

Proud Member Of The Canadian Clique

Duramax

Dec. 8, 2002, 08:28 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JusGallop:
I just read on another thread that the sunnies she found were vitamin enriched for the birds. Is this the same stuff you guys are feeding?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I try to avoid buying the ones that are enriched for the birdies. I don't want my horses to grow feathers and learn to fly... /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

FairWeather

Dec. 9, 2002, 07:36 AM

although that sure could help over those airy oxers!!!

__________________________
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mcmIV

Dec. 9, 2002, 08:42 AM

Just a note - (actually I just have a twisted desire to keep this thread going!)

I've been feeding 2+ cups of sunnies a day. I use them to bag his supplements. I used to use sweetfeed and pour his powders in there - but I substituted for seeds, going for the "two for one" thing.

Anyway - I can't be sure - but he is getting a little "porky" - and I'm suspecting this is partly due to the seeds! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have no problems with his chub, as it is winter, and he hasn't been in work, and I can still cut his grain more if he gets too fat. He's getting 1/2 scoop of pellets twice a day.

But anyway - could be a good way to keep some weight on without upping the grain/energy. Maybe the seeds are just as much energy as grain, maybe its all in my head. But I suspect theyre making him heafty.

But like I said - having an "easyish" keeper who has been "laid up" for a couple months, it's not surprising he's a little porky. So am I. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Oh, and he's shiney and has a "glossy" coat, that isn't oily, but is silky and soft. It's nice. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

martha

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Britney

Dec. 9, 2002, 04:35 PM

But, I just sat here and read this entire thread, pretty much convinced that I'm going to try the sunnie/flax mix but then I had a question so here goes.

I read early on in the thread that something like 1.75lbs of sunnies could be substituted for 2.2 lbs of oats. I know this will sound strange but I'm not an all knowing feed guru so, what exactly would you be replacing if you substituted sunnies for oats? My horse is on about 1lb of hull-less oats 2x a day in addition to about 4lbs of extruded feed 2x a day. I was wondering, if he is on a timothy/clover mix hay and about 3lbs daily of dengi hi-fi timothy forage, with him being on the oats, does this indicate that his calcium and phosphorous ratios might be off? I believe his extruded feed is balanced in the ratios but again, I'm not really sure if that matters at all because these calcium/phos. ratios are all a little foggy to me. What I do know is that I don't want my horse to be taking his calcium from his bones if he is lacking in it. So, I was wondering, granted that my horse actually liked the sunnies, would substituting them for the oats be a safe and effective alternative? I was basically using them to balance out the sweet in his diet, but I probably should have gone with some sort of pelleted feed instead. Also, I'd love to see the results in overall condition that everyone else has so I'd like to give it a try. Can anyone give me some advice? Thanks in advance. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

~Rush Hour~
*Children's Jumper Clique*Thoroughbred Clique*NH Clique*

"... Tiny tots, with their eyes all aglow, will find it hard to sleep tonight."

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 10, 2002, 04:05 AM

<sigh>

I believe YOU are our resident

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> all-knowing feed guru <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. OMG! Only 57 days till I pick up my little guy! I'm gett' scared.

Bumpkin

Dec. 10, 2002, 06:58 AM

We have a future recruit here..... /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique" Bora Da

Marimee

Dec. 10, 2002, 07:57 AM

I have a 23 year old TB gelding that I am always trying to keep weight on...so I thought that I would give the sunnies a try. After reading about substituting the sunnies for oats a red flag came up for me. My old guy can't digest oats and corn, never could. They both come out in the same form that they went in. Does anyone think that he would have similar problems with sunnies? He currently gets 2qts of Eq. Senior and 3 qts of pellets per feeding with 2 scoops of a weight building suppliment (Pennfields) and I was thinking of substituting the sunnies for the weight suppliment as it would be cheaper. What do you all think?

Bumpkin

Dec. 10, 2002, 08:40 AM

Perhaps your olde guy is a candidate for the shelled Sunnies?

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique" Bora Da

Britney

Dec. 10, 2002, 05:14 PM

anyone? /infopop/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I'd love to join the clique. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

~Rush Hour~
*Children's Jumper Clique*Thoroughbred Clique*NH Clique*

"... Tiny tots, with their eyes all aglow, will find it hard to sleep tonight."

Britney

Dec. 11, 2002, 12:36 PM

No one?? What about all those people who posted in the beginning of this thread about calcium/phosphorous ratios?

~Rush Hour~
*Children's Jumper Clique*Thoroughbred Clique*NH Clique*

"... Tiny tots, with their eyes all aglow, will find it hard to sleep tonight."

Tannenwald Trakehner

Dec. 11, 2002, 03:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>My old guy can't digest oats and corn, never could. They both come out in the same form that they went in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am perplexed by this line. It seems very unlikely that he would be unable to digest grain. How long have you had the horse? I ask because maybe he is not chewing the grain due to dental problems or something along those lines. And I assume that you were giving him cracked corn and rolled oats? A lot of horses will pass grain whole if they are fed it whole.

If he has a problem with passing oats and corn whole I cannot think that it would be any better with the sunflower seed shells. That said, I don't think I would screw around with shelled seeds. A lot of the benefit with the seeds vs. oil is the fiber they add, and the extra crunching involved, which produces more saliva and aids digesttion.

It would help if we knew a little more about why you figure he cannot digest grain. If it is truly a matter of not digesting, I don't see how the pelleted feed would work for him either. Except that you would not recognize what came out as what went in. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Britney

Dec. 12, 2002, 06:27 AM

Bump! Wow, this is kind of making me sad. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~Rush Hour~
*Children's Jumper Clique*Thoroughbred Clique*NH Clique*

"... Tiny tots, with their eyes all aglow, will find it hard to sleep tonight."

Tannenwald Trakehner

Dec. 12, 2002, 09:27 AM

Are you asking if your current diet is balanced Ca:Phos? If so, you need to know what is in the hay and pellets. Anything packaged like pelleted feed should have the percentages on the label. If your hay has been analyzed that is the best way to know what is in it.

To figure out overall calcium:phos you need the content (by percentage, ppm, whatever) of each mineral and the amount feed each day, including how much of the hay you are feeding a day.

With a quick scan of your program, assuming the extruded feed is balanced in a normal range, you are not feeding too much phos by giving 2lbs of oats a day.

For what it is worth,

Sunnies have 38-40% fat, about 29% fiber and 18%protein, .2% calcium and .6% phos.

Oats have less than 5% fat, 11% protein, .07% calcium and .3% phos.

So obviously, while sunnies contribute more minerals pound for pound compared to oats, sunnies are a little better balanced over all than are oats. (sunnies 1:3, oats 1:4.2, with the goal of the total diet to be 1.2:1 - 2:1).

Whether you can replace sunnies for oats depends on what you are feeding the oats for--they are not nutritionally the same, but if you are just trying to add calories, they are a viable alternative.

Tannenwald Trakehner (http://www.atrakehner.com), Breeders & Friends of the Trakehner horse:
American Trakehners - European Engineering, Made in America!

Britney

Dec. 12, 2002, 10:38 AM

Tannenwald Trakhener, I really appreciate your response. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I think I may just start with adding sunnies along with what he is getting now and see how it goes.

~Rush Hour~
*Children's Jumper Clique*Thoroughbred Clique*NH Clique*

"... Tiny tots, with their eyes all aglow, will find it hard to sleep tonight."

cinnabar

Dec. 16, 2002, 08:30 AM

Why in the world haven't I read all this before?!?! I just got through all 11 pages, and think I'd better join the clique. My TB has done really well on a 10/10 feed and rice bran to get his weight up. The rice bran is pricey, but I only feed 2c/day, so it's not too bad. Think I'lll see if he'll eat sunnies and flax and substitute those for the rice bran.

Thanks for all the great info!

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 16, 2002, 08:59 AM

vote!

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. OMG! Only 51 days till I pick up my little guy! AND ONLY 7 WEEKS! I'm gettin' scared.

clickstar

Dec. 16, 2002, 11:35 AM

KT you really love those polls, don'tcha!!? /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

seriously, though, this thread has got to be in some kind of hall of fame...it should at least be inducted into the reference forums, so that it may be saved for generations of sunnieflax debutantes!

proud member of the sunnieflax clique

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 16, 2002, 06:19 PM

Did I ever tell you what I do all day ... you know, what pays for all these four-footed marvels?

Take a guess: think numbers, numbers, numbers and MORE numbers.

And think graphics. Now throw in a large dose of ... WALL STREET!!!!!

Whaddya get?

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. OMG! Only 51 days till I pick up my little guy! AND ONLY 7 WEEKS! I'm gettin' scared.

clickstar

Dec. 16, 2002, 07:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by KT 1900:
Whaddya get?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bored?

proud member of the sunnieflax clique

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 17, 2002, 03:35 AM

No. Well, yes, of course.

The correct answer is: graphs! charts! diagrams!

Oh, lucky, lucky me.

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. OMG! Only 51 days till I pick up my little guy! AND ONLY 7 WEEKS! I'm gettin' scared.

Bumpkin

Dec. 23, 2002, 08:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DrssgLvR3:
This truly is the thread that won't die! After reading this thread- thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I started my horses on the b.o. sunflwr seeds (1/2 c a.m. & p.m.). It has been a little over a month & they are both quite shiny! I have been most happy about my chesnut's coat. It was always dry & flakyish- no matter how much I groomed him. But the dryness is gone & he is slick & shiny! He also seems much more COMFORTABLE as before he was so ITCHY that he nearly constantly scratched himself on everything & anything he could find. He had begun to rub the hair off his face in places but that has stopped & some is beginning to grow back. I have been so pleased with the results! Thanks to all for sharing. I also ordered the NutraFlax since I couldn't find flax seeds anywhere. Hopefully that will come this week & we'll see how they do with that!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique" Bora Da

BarbB

Dec. 24, 2002, 04:13 AM

I just turned my OTTB into an enormous fruit loop by feeding him alfalfa to try and keep some weight on him over the winter.
I had previously tried oil, but he doesn't like it well enough to feed very much. I was searching for an alternative source of fat when I came across this thread. He has been off the alfalfa for about a week and I just started adding the sunnies to his diet.
He already gets a small amount of flax in a supplement called Missing Link.
Hope this works as a fat source, the nights are getting cold and he has, in the past, lost a lot of weight fast at this time of year.

BarbB

...virtue shall be bound into the hair of thy forelock... I have given thee the power of flight without wings. - The Koran

Tapestry website, dogs and horses (http://www.tapestry659.50megs.com/)

MissCapitalSplash

Dec. 24, 2002, 04:30 PM

I went out and bought some black oil sunflower seeds today. they didnt have flax, getting a shipment monday special for me /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I am giving it to all 3 of mine except the 5 month old, not sure what it would do to her. She has ulcers etc

I started them on a handful each tonight, and they GOBBLED it up!!

I am hoping it will help our 3 yr OTTB with weight, my mare with coat, and Mysti with coat. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

UndeniedGirl

Dec. 24, 2002, 04:43 PM

OK, in just reading the Sunnie/Flax thread (the WHOLE thing /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ) I was thinking of adding it to my horses feed, but a few things I read on the thread posed some questions.

First, a CA/Phos question. Both my horses are currently on Strategy and Orchard Grass hay. Along the thread somewhere I believe someone said that Orchard grass hay had the wrong CA/Phos ratio -- is this true? If so, will adding the sunnies/flax cause problems?

Also, it was mentioned that this can be balanced by adding Alfalfa hay, if so, how much (about) would need to be added (assuming 2cups sunnise and 2cups flax a day)? And, knowing that Strategy is high in protien (16%), as is Alfalfa, could I get too much protien? (and what kind of problems could that cause?)

/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif if that any sense at all, thanks in advance for you help. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jocelyn

***********

"Librarian find me the pole, the one that kicks your head in" ~Time Consumer, Coheed and Cambria

slb

Dec. 25, 2002, 11:19 AM

Unless you are feeding large amounts, it will not offset your current balances. You would need to feed lbs/day to do that.

UndeniedGirl

Dec. 25, 2002, 02:09 PM

Thanks for your reply /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

one more question, can you over feed sunnies/flax? In other words, would a cup of each 2x a day be too much?

Jocelyn

***********

"Librarian find me the pole, the one that kicks your head in" ~Time Consumer, Coheed and Cambria

Applesauce

Dec. 25, 2002, 08:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by MissCapitalSplash:
I am giving it to all 3 of mine except the 5 month old, not sure what it would do to her. She has ulcers etc
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feed the sunnie/flax mix to my 5 year old WB that has mild ulcers. He is getting about 1 1/2 cups a day and it has not affected his ulcers one bit. He happily munches down every last seed. Ask your vet to make sure since we are talking about a 5 month old, but you should be okay.

"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H

slb

Dec. 25, 2002, 09:42 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by UndeniedGirl:
one more question, can you over feed sunnies/flax? In other words, would a cup of each 2x a day be too much?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that you can overdo the sunnies, but IMO (and others here don't seem to agree), you can overfeed the flax. It is not recommended that you feed more than 3-4 oz of flax/day. First, there is no proven benefit from feeding more. Secondly, if you are feeding whole seeds (ground or otherwise - except for whole) you are raising the risk of toxic reaction. Flax contains a cyinide producing enzyme that is released upon grinding or soaking....worse when soaked, safer if fed as soon as ground. While small amounts are not harmful, nor is the processed meal, it may prove harmful when fed in higher amounts. Addtionally - and I know everyone here thinks I am nuts when I say this - flax is used to help reduce weight....not gain it. If fed in small amounts, I think that it may help weight grain as it will improve overall health...however, fed in high amounts may actually inhibit weight grain or aid in weight loss....check out any weight loss web site for the word flax.....you will most likely find it.

However, with that said, I think that there may be some here that feed 1-2 cups of flax/day. Perhaps they can provide more info on the benefits...I am curious also. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

DrssgLvR3

Dec. 26, 2002, 05:36 AM

Bumpkin- The NutraFlax worked great! Talk about shiny- WOW! I was very pleased with the results. Just before re-ordering the NutraFlax, however, I happened to be at the feed store & they had gotten whole flax seed in. I decided to try the whole seed as it would be cheaper than the ground NutraFlax. It's been about 3 weeks since my guys have been on the whole flax seed. I think their coats have lost some sheen. Don't get me wrong, they still look great but not super shiny like when they were on the NF. But- I have this gigantic bag of flax seed to get thru before I decide if I'm going back to the NF!

HelenD

Dec. 26, 2002, 08:17 AM

Sometimes I feel like a broken record w/ this factoid;

(From www.thehorse.com (http://www.thehorse.com) or in the June 2001 magazine. Online article number 961)

"Horse owners wanting to take advantage of flaxseed's omega-3 content can rest easy. Flaxseed, or linseed, has a reputation as a toxic substance to horses when fed uncooked--earned because the seeds contain a small amount of cyanogenetic glycosides and enzymes that allow the glycosides to release cyanide. This poison is released when flaxseed plants are damaged by frost, drought, or processing. Since cyanide is readily absorbed in the GI tract, flax products could potentially prevent oxygen release in the blood, leading to sudden death.

However, we now know that glycosidase enzymes are destroyed in the equine stomach and small intestine long before they can trigger cyanide release. So it appears there is no risk of cyanide toxicosis when horses are fed raw flaxseed. "

Helen D

(S)He doth nothing but talk of his horses.
~William Shakespeare

hobbypony

Dec. 26, 2002, 08:20 AM

I'm confused on the flax. Is it better to feed it whole or to grind it up?

Bumpkin

Dec. 26, 2002, 08:30 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by DrssgLvR3:
Bumpkin- The NutraFlax worked great! Talk about shiny- WOW! I was very pleased with the results. Just before re-ordering the NutraFlax, however, I happened to be at the feed store & they had gotten whole flax seed in. I decided to try the whole seed as it would be cheaper than the ground NutraFlax. It's been about 3 weeks since my guys have been on the whole flax seed. I think their coats have lost some sheen. Don't get me wrong, they still look great but not super shiny like when they were on the NF. But- I have this gigantic bag of flax seed to get thru before I decide if I'm going back to the NF!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here I was this morning....thinking...oh,oh what if I am stuck with this huge Bag of Nutra Flax???
LOL /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique" Bora Da

Applesauce

Dec. 30, 2002, 01:44 PM

I've been feeding the sunnie/flax mix for about 2 weeks now and am already noticing a BIG difference in my horses' coats. I mean WOW! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif What a shine! Even with furry winter coats they are much easier to curry and when I vacuum the shine just comes through.

Not to mention it looks like it's helping to gradually put some weight on my WB.

I'm a believer!!!

THANKS FAIRWEATHER!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H

Bumpkin

Dec. 30, 2002, 05:46 PM

So I spent this afternoon making up baggies of Sunnies, Nutraflax and MSM for Elliot.

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique" Bora Da

Oldenburg Mom

Dec. 31, 2002, 04:09 AM

re: Applesauce.

Yet ANOTHER successful convert. Your skills are amazing!

Just a thought...
KT

Proud member of the SunnieFlax Clique
P.S. OMG! Only 36 days till I pick up my little guy! AND ONLY 5 WEEKS! What have I got myself into?

OMG! We've just moved onto 13 pages - this is silly!

Bumpkin

Dec. 31, 2002, 09:43 AM

Now you have to try the Nutraflax http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique" Bora Da

Applesauce

Dec. 31, 2002, 12:45 PM

What's it all about? Is it better than feeding plain flax seeds? Is it more expensive?

"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H

Bumpkin

Dec. 31, 2002, 12:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Applesauce:
What's it all about? Is it better than feeding plain flax seeds? Is it more expensive?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is cheaper. They sent me 40 pounds, with free shipping for I think it was $58.
Try the website.
www.horsetech.com (http://www.horsetech.com)

"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique" Bora Da

Applesauce

Jan. 2, 2003, 06:13 AM

Bumpkin: Thanks for the link! I think I'll try it but I have to get through the rest of the flax seed first. I like the part about "decreased nervousness". My WB is a worrier so maybe this will help him chill out a little.

"Ladies and gentlemen, take my advice. Pull down your pants and slide on the ice." quote from the tv series M*A*S*H

equushvm

Jan. 3, 2003, 07:44 AM

4 hours later.........
I just read this WHOLE thread and I STILL have a question. I saw that many people started with the sunnies and noticed a real difference when they started adding the flax. But I didn't see it the other way around. Add to that the amazing amount of "gardens" in the manure piles and happy birds doing the mucking for you and I have to wonder if the sunnies are doing anything at all? Do you think it might just be the flax in the sunniflax mixture? Anybody just feeding one or the other?

I don't mind feeding them.....am anxious to try actually......but I'll save my money if I'm just planting flower gardens of sunnies and just do the flax. Course, if horsey love them that much, a trat now and again....

mcmIV

Jan. 3, 2003, 08:05 AM

Erm...

I noticed a difference when I added sunnies. About 2 cups in his morning feed for a month or two and his coat was glossy and shiney and didn't get that dull-dirt-holding look to it most dark coats get in the winter.

I cut back on the sunnies (like 1 cup) and added a couple scoops of flax (horsetech brand) and haven't noticed a bigger difference. If anything he strikes me as less shiney, but he is indoors now and maybe it's just the light.

The sunnies are so cheap, I say, why not? The flax (horsetech brand) isn't cheap - and I'm not sure if I will continue it even though I think its useful. I have so many other bills I figure if sunnies work fine alone and they cost like 3$ a month, that's fine with me!

martha

HFSH

Jan. 3, 2003, 08:25 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Applesauce:
What's it all about? Is it better than feeding plain flax seeds? Is it more expensive?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it is cheaper. They sent me 40 pounds, with free shipping for I think it was $58.
Try the website.
http://www.horsetech.com
"Proud Member Of The I Loff Starman Babies Clique" Bora Da<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Holy cow, I pay less than $20 for a 50 pound bag of flax seeds. Probably less than $15. So for me, it's raw flax seed!

BTW, my horses are officially COWS. I've reduced their grain, but man, they are porkers now. And their hooves are growing like mad too.

Proud member of the "I Hate Physical Therapy" clique | Auction for Aiden!