Grooms?

[Kelsy]

At shows, do you prefer Full-Care of Half-Care? Usually I prefer full, but it depends on the show and how many horses I have. How many Mexicans does your barn usually bring? Do your Mexicans speak English? Only some of mine do so it makes it hard.

<3, Kelsey

[This message has been edited by Kelsy (edited 10-11-2000).]

[Kelsy]

At shows, do you prefer Full-Care of Half-Care? Usually I prefer full, but it depends on the show and how many horses I have. How many Mexicans does your barn usually bring? Do your Mexicans speak English? Only some of mine do so it makes it hard.

<3, Kelsey

[This message has been edited by Kelsy (edited 10-11-2000).]

[stop4]

I prefer full care too. It is just too hard to take care of all of my horses with out any help. I still do things with my horses. I take them for hand walks and sometimes help tack them up. I think that is important not to ignore your horses even thought you can have others do the work. I am always spoiling them with treats!
I get half care when I only have one horse. That way I do everything except feed and muck stalls. And that definatly makes it easier on me! I dont ahve to get up at 6 to feed or run back to the barn in the middle of watching a division to muck my hroses stall!
What do you guys prefer?

We usually only bring 2-3 because we have a small barn but it depends how many get full care and how many peopl get half-care.

Only one of ours speaks English but it is ok because my trainer speaks Spanish.

[This message has been edited by Sandstone (edited 10-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Sandstone (edited 10-15-2000).]

[sassyjumper]

When possible I perfer half-care to self-care (though I don't turn down assistance). I just have 'control & delegation' issues. God help the groom who did something wrong. Even with grooms along I like to do it myself if possible. It is my way to relax and prepare for the division. I also constantly check & re-check myself. I know I am nurotic outside the ring. But, knowing I have done everything possible to prepare for the class and everything that can be controlled has been done allows me to just enjoy the ride in the ring win, lose or draw.

Of course I am the same way at home so it is just a natural reaction for me. All I know is that I don't have any worries once my butt hits the saddle.

Shelli

[sassyjumper]

I didn't read the rest of the post (sorry). All the grooms at our barn are working students. All are females of different backgrounds (from high school to housewife) and are really well trained by the barn. Most of the grooms who come to shows don't compete or if they do they show at the local level. I really like this arrangement, the students are there for the love of the horse and we all are close. I would (and have) trust anyone of them with the care of ANY of my horses.

Shelli

[JumpMerit]

I prefer Full-Care, I think that the mexicans can do an amazing job at getting horses extra clean. Has anyone else noticed how even the worst horses to bathe seem to stand stiller for the mexicans than anyone else? I still visit them and take them for walks and stuff though.

[RumoursFollow]

Well.. I have yet to go to a show with Pam so I'm not sure what her system is... but in my past, in GA when I was a junior I ALWAYS did everything myself. It wasnt a choice at the places that I rode to not clean your own stall or tack up your own horse.

When I lived in VA this summer I was a slave during the week... and after I bought Rumour I sent him to Snowden Clarke... where I had EVERYTHING done for me (at home sometimes and always at shows) and it took some getting used to. But its great... because my horse looked soooo much better at the ring! haha.

Snowden had a small amount of shower people, so we only brought one groom with us. (he actually only has 2) Jose, the one that goes with us, is absolutely incredible. He knows everything and is a step in front of us all all the time. I worship him. He is the God of all grooms. LOL. So good to the horses..And MAN... he is a nice guy too. I cant say enough great things about him. He does speak english. Not 100% fluent... but good enough. The guy that works under him that stays at home with the horses does not speak very good english, but he's learning.

[RumoursFollow]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JumpMerit:
Has anyone else noticed how even the worst horses to bathe seem to stand stiller for the mexicans than anyone else? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My goodness yes JM! haha. I remember showing my jumper 2 years ago.. and I was at this show and he would NOT get into the washrack for the life of him.. this guy felt sorry for me after a while, came up (didnt speak a WORD of english) took the leadrope, patted Schmee on the head.. and marched him right into the washrack without batting an eye. I was so mad! LOL. I dont understand what it is.. but Rumour wont stand for me to do ANYTHING to him! LOL and he's perfect for everyone else.


[This message has been edited by RumoursFollow (edited 10-11-2000).]

[Paige]

I don't use grooms. My family, friends, trainer, and I do the work. And I don't feel that that makes me any better than any of you, that is just the way you do it. But...in my opinion, you may want to consider how you ask the question. From what I have gathered, most people on this board are not heavy "A" circut riders like on Towerheads. A question like "do your Mexicans speak english?" can be seen as very derogitory. I don't want to make anyone mad, but think about that. You may be apprecative of being able to afford grooms, but remember, they are people too...

[Policy of Truth]

I always did all of my grooming and braiding myself, and if I ever return to showing, I would like to be able to hire someone.
Could you explain the difference in full and half-care, as well as give me a quick lesson on what is fair pay?

[Dee]

I'm sure it wasn't meant to be derogatory, but I agree with you, Paige. These people deserve our utmost respect and appreciation. We don't have "grooms" per se at our barn, but there are a few Mexican men who are employed by the owner to do stalls, feed, turn out, and keep the grounds. I respect and admire them so much. They have left their country, family and friends, to come here and do the wonderful job that they do in order to make a better life for themselves and their families. I can't say enough good about their work ethic, and their love of family. The poster above is right--the horses love and trust them; horses are a pretty good judge of character, I think.

I don't see the Mexicans' presence as taking jobs from Americans---businesses are crying for help here, and we sure have plenty of Americans still on welfare..don't get me started! I think a lot of us could learn a whole lot from them.

[Jo]

I, too, was offended by the original post. Who's to say all the grooms are "Mexicans"? Who's to say all the Mexicans can't speak English? It was also always taught to me that the term "Mexican" refers to food, and the word "Hispanic" refers to people. I can't believe that people don't have respect for grooms, period, Hispanic or not. We had a "Mexican" where I used to board; he left everything to come to a "better life" with greater opportunity. He sacrificed more than anybody I have ever met, and he also worked harder than anyone I have ever met.

Also -- what ever happened to people taking care of their OWN horses? I have never had the "opportunity" to have groom care at a show, we don't have grooms at my barn. Seems to me it would take away something rather than add to it...

[This message has been edited by Jo (edited 10-11-2000).]

[Weatherford]

I took care of four horses (all care, grooming and tacking) and showed one in Wellington last year. I exercised one of the others all the time, and the last two when necessary.

By the last two weeks, I told my trainer she needed to get someone else to be her slave - two of the horses were hers - she was getting paid to have one there, but I didn't get any credit for my work - hmmm. Not good.

The third horse was my sale horse who did not get sold. She did hire someone at that point to do her stalls, but I still did most of the everything else.

It was a lot of work! My only regret was not getting the chance to go watch as much as I wanted.

I would really rather do my own horse(s). That way, I know exactly how each one is every day, and I know what they need and when they need it. I think that is a major part of being a horseperson.

Had braiding been a necessity (we do jumpers, so it wasn't), I would have done that, too.

By the way, we did have a very successful trip!

[Nylar]

Well, since my horse isn't really ready yet for the big shows, I tend to go along as the groom for our pony whenever possible. It's loads of fun, my trainer and I split the work up at the barn, and then I take care of last minute grooming and stuff ringside. After the showing is done for the day, the rider is expected to change out of her good clothes and pitch in too.
At the more local shows, everyone does their own work, although obviously more responsibility is going to fall on the older riders. My trainer does a LOT of the work herself though, right down to braiding for those of us who aren't coordinated enough to handle it. I may be 19, but my hands just don't work that way.
I too am interested in the definition of full-care vs. half-care. Those aren't terms I've come across yet in my somewhat limited showing experience.

[jch]

I am glad that several people noted that the people who care for our horses are employees, not "Mexicans". Some are immigrants, some are working students, moms, etc. but all work hard and deserve complete respect from the their employers!! Yep, I have groomed (at home & at shows), my daughter grooms to pay for her showing and we always talk to the other grooms at the shows (even though my Spanish stinks). You can learn lots by taking two minutes to be polite - and believe me, your horse will get even better care /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
By the way, for us, full care is everything (total care, washing, tack up, clean tack) and half care is stall cleaning and feeding.

[This message has been edited by jch (edited 10-11-2000).]

[rockstar]

So much depends upon the barn at which you ride. I have ridden at every kind of barn out there... it has been different at each one. When I rode at a high profile barn in NY with very wealthy clients the help was all Mexicans. (And about the whole "mexican" thing... I am a pretty politcally correct person and I would never use the word so causually outside the horse show world... but this IS the horse show world... and "mexican" is such an accepted way of referring to the hispanic immigrants that work for barns that I have no qualms using it). This was a barn that was as full care as they come (at home too). I wasn't used to having that and I would always insist on helping... but they usually really discouraged me from doing that. They liked doing their own thing and not having us kids mess up their system. Weird! After a lot of money was lost in my family I became a working student and entered a whole new world! And, after having experienced every level of care available at every price, I can honestly say that I like doing it myself the most because it is just so much more rewarding as a horseman (errr, woman). It was so much more satisfying to win a class in the juniors knowing that I was responsible for that win because I was the one who was at the show by 5 AM to feed, medicate, muck, water, hay, lunge, bath, tack up, and ride. It was my victory alone... and not a groom's as well. Because let's face it, these days, in most cases at least, half or earning a ribbon comes from the performance you put in in the ring, and a good portion of the other half comes from the effort that was put into your horse outside of the ring. The caretaker has almost as much to do with it as the rider is what I am saying here. On the flip side, while a ribbon was so much sweeter as someone who took care of her horse, a loss was that much more disapointing... there was no finger to blame! When my horse was crazed or something else went wrong, I was the one who had to take responsibility. No groom could be blamed for not galloping my horse for long enough OR for making my horse too quiet.

I can't wait until I am older and "independantly wealthy" so that I can get a full time groom and just not use him or her. I think the best thing is to do all of the work yourself but know that, if need be, you can send out a call and be rescued with outside help. For example, when you get back to the barn after a ride on a hot summer day and you are exhausted and all you want to do is take your boots off, chug some gatorade, and sit on a trunk to unwide... it is definitely moments like that when it would be REALLY nice to have someone artound to take horsie out for some grass while you recover! Or, as much as I love taking care of my horse, I could live without taking the braids out ona really cold day!

Hmmm... I am not sure if my not-so-coherent post made any sense... oh well... too lazy to go back and fix it! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[rockstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rockstar:

a loss was that much more disapointing... there was no finger to blame! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

make that no finger to point! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[mwalshe]

Usually I would not post something like this BUT I have to say that I was pretty appalled by this string- in fact I wasn't sure if the references to Mexicans was a joke. I have ridden, trained and taught in Europe and the States including in NJ, CA, PA and NC at all manner of barns. If everyone I met talked like this I would have taken up jogging long ago. One of the last "Mexicans" I shared a barn with was an MBA up here working, he had ridden junior jumpers at home and some as an adult and quite frankly could ride rings around most anyone. FYI it is NOT in fact perfectly OK to refer to your barns staff as "the mexicans", however it does make it easy to pick out the Americans on this bulletin board. If you choose to pay someone to do your horses at a show that is your choice but there is no need to be patronizing, it is a job like any other and most people would prefer a business-like relationship.

[This message has been edited by letsgo (edited 10-12-2000).]

[stop4]

I don't think that me or Kelsey were trying to be mean or ofend anyone. She was just wondering. And I just answered the question.

[G]

At shows, I'm on full care, mostly because I'm usually late getting on with help... imagine if I wasn't on that plan? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And it just makes me less stressed, which I found helps me relax more (duh) and I end up having a better show because I'm more focused. Our barn usually brings around 2-3 grooms, no one has their own personal groom and not everyone is on full care. At most shows, we'll have around 4 people (including 2 of the trainers) helping out w/ grooming, plus any of the students who aren't showing that day usually pitch in and help out to make it a little easier.

[J. Turner]

I know indigineous tribes don't like being called "Native American" or "Indian" because they are neither Americans (except by force) or Indians. Ask an individual to what tribe he or she belongs -- Cherokee, etc.

But what is wrong with Mexican? Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a nationality. How else would one distinguish between Panamanians, Dominicans, and Cubans -- and Mexicans? Sports announcers certainly distinguish between Latinos of different national origin.

[cdnmoon]

I too found the original post somewhat offensive.

I get the point of the post, but I think it needs to be pointed out that regardless of your groom's nationality/ethnic background, they are "grooms" - they work their a**es off for you and the least you can do is show them the respect they deserve for putting up with all the crap (and trust me, I groomed for years, most grooms take a lot of crap!) and taking care of your horses. I'm sure you would be equally offended if they showed you disrespect by asking such questions as "How many stuck up rich b****es are you grooming for today?"

I believe the question should have been "How many GROOMS does your barn usually bring?"

[MBS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by J. Turner:
I know indigineous tribes don't like being called "Native American" or "Indian" because they are neither Americans (except by force) or Indians. Ask an individual to what tribe he or she belongs -- Cherokee, etc.

But what is wrong with Mexican? Hispanic is an ethnicity, not a nationality. How else would one distinguish between Panamanians, Dominicans, and Cubans -- and Mexicans? Sports announcers certainly distinguish between Latinos of different national origin.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is true J Turner except that now there are many other Latino workers out there at the horse shows. I know that the Mexicans were the first group of Latinos that started working the horse shows but Now there are many people from other Central American countries and it is Insulting to them to be all lumped together as "The Mexicans". I was recently offended when I was lessoning at a well known barn and heard one little girl say "I don't know ask one of those Mexicans " I thought why didn't she say "ask one of the guys or one of the grooms" she just made it sound so degrading. Maybe I am a little sensative since my husband is Mexican.

[joliemom]

Since this topic arose, one concern I have for Hispanic grooms is their vulnerability to an employers demands. Yes, on the whole, they're a hard working group, but many lack a green card, that piece of paper allowing them to work legally, and dare I say it, safely, in the US. They don't have the 40 hour work week, more like a 60+ hour week with little or no time off, and are being paid right around minimum wage. Quitting for a better opportunity isn't an option. We need to be careful not to take advantage of them.

Another concern I have is our language difference. Please, if you have Spanish speaking grooms, buy a Spanish/English dictionary, or better yet a Spanish/English horseman's dictionary. I found one on Amazon, unfortunately it's out of print, but am sure such things exist at tack stores as I've seen a copy at the barn where I ride. Wouldn't we all like to be able to ask questions or make comments like, "How's my horse's cough today?" or "Watch out! There's a loose horse running for the road!"

And lastly, as the holidays near, don't forget those tip envelopes. Feliz Navidad!

[Lil]

Give Kelsy a break, guys. She's young and didn't know any better, nor did she mean any harm, I'm sure. My 16 yo stepdaughter is always asking rude questions ("How much money do you make, Rosie?")and is horrified at herself when corrected. Okay, 'nuff said...
I use full service grooming at shows, from the night before until my division or my classes for the day are over. I usually use a kid from the barn. I am a nervous wreck at shows; having the sweet little face of my very capable groom smiling encouragingly and taking such good care of my horse makes the day go so much better. At home the barn staff feed, muck, and turn out.

[Jo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rockstar:
And about the whole "mexican" thing... I am a pretty politcally correct person and I would never use the word so causually outside the horse show world... but this IS the horse show world... and "mexican" is such an accepted way of referring to the hispanic immigrants that work for barns that I have no qualms using it).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just because it is accepted doesn't mean it is right.

[Jo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jch:
You can learn lots by taking two minutes to be polite - and believe me, your horse will get even better care /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup! I second that. The groom I spoke of above was one of the few who I "practiced" my Spanish on... That was when I was in high school, and I feebily attempted to talk to him in Spanish, and he practiced his English on me... He was always so grateful to have someone to talk to, and I made a really nice friend... OMG... did I just refer to a lowly GROOM as a FRIEND?!?!?!?! Shocking. Especially since he was just a "Mexican."

[Reckoning]

Grooms are professional caregivers for horses. Just like professionals in any other field, they have honed their skills to a level that can only be classified as expertise. Much like doctors, nurses, lawyers, secretaries, stockbrokers, computer programmers, etc. they have immersed themselves in learning their trade. They deserve the same respect.

Expertise in any field is fascinating to me. Watching a gourmet chef who loves food and preparing food make an omelet is an awesome experience. The grace and ease in which the task is handled is insiping. The same can be said of watching an excellent groom brush and tack up an easy to handle horse. The pricision and economy of movement is stunning.

I have been showing on the A circuit for more than 15 years. In that time, I have had the pleasure of working with some truly wonderful people who were grooms. I've learned everything sophisticated that I know about horsecare from various grooms. If you want to be good at something, learn from a professional. For example, how much corn oil should a horse get everyday for maximum benefit? Two glugs twice a day. A horses' system can't process any more than that, so additional oil is unnecessary and adds too much fat to the horse's diet.

Someone who spends a lot of time horse showing spends a lot of time with grooms. Many grooms are from other countries, France, Mexico, Belgium, Chile. It's interesting to learn about other countries and their cultures. More than that, show riders and grooms have one very important thing in common- they both have a love of horses and want the horse to be the absolute best he/she can be.

Thanks to the grooms I personally have known, I can communicate well enough in Spanish and French to be proficient. I know exactly what cualks my horse should wear instantly when I look at the footing. I know corn starch is better than baby powder for white socks in a conformation class. I know that rubbing alchohol can put more shine on your boots than any polish. I also know what it is to be a part of a "team". Riding is not a team sport per se, but competing on a horse is the culmination of your hard work riding, someone else's hard work grooming, and yet someone else' s hard work training.

I am still friends with many of the grooms I have worked with. We've shared some wonderful experiences, some terrible ones, and some plain old good times. The last groom who took care of my horses and I had developed such fine-tuned communication skills that we are the reigning champions of Pictionary, undefeated at Drunken Pictionary. We get together socially now because we don't see each other in the course of horse activity anymore.

I am genuinely grateful for the experiences I have had, and even more grateful for all that I have learned from them. It saddens me to read some of the posts above and see that many kids today are missing out on all this because of their own snobbery. If any of you kids really cared about horses and horsemanship, you would take advantage of the oppunities to learn from the grooms employed by your barn. They know more about horsecare than anyone else you could meet. The context in which "Mexicans" were discussed early on on this thread imply that "Mexicans" are nothing more than another piece of equipment your barn has to take to shows. Like a liverpool to warm-up over before a jumper class. That attitude is not only offense, it is worthy of pity and disgust.

I apologize for the length of this.

[This message has been edited by slugger (edited 10-12-2000).]

[This message has been edited by slugger (edited 10-12-2000).]

[Bumpkin]

When I lived in England as a groom I was illegal and didn't have a "green card".
I was referred to as the "American", "Yank', "Yankee" sometimes with "Girl" added to that.
I never took offence to it.
I also worked long hard hours and got in return room, meals and 20 Pounds a week pay.
Since I wasn't legal, the "Lads" took my horses to the races, and kept any tips the owners gave them that were really for me.
Being a groom no matter where, is a hard but well worth it job.
The memories and experience of learning to cope through just about anything is something I would never trade.


[This message has been edited by Bumpkin (edited 10-12-2000).]

[buryinghill2]

Thankyou Slugger! From someone that groomed for over twenty years on the A circuit, I found your post really moving. I worked SO hard for so long! It's nice to see there ARE people out there who appreciate a good groom for the knowledge he or she has, not just their ability to work hard 18 hours a day...

[BayHorse]

I prefer self-care and do everything myself, but if you asked my wife she would tell you that she looks after the horses and I just jockey.

I suppose that's because the supply of Mexicans is non-existent in the UK and not so many Irish are getting over these days.

[Jo]

Slugger, thank you for your excellent post. You said the things I've been feebily attempting to say. It just amazes me that there are really people who refer to people as pieces of equipment out there... even if they are young... I was always taught to respect other people as human beings, no matter their status... This thread is just so disheartening to me.

[Weatherford]

Thanks, Slugger!

And, Si, the Irish economy being what it is these days, they are probably hiring you English to groom for them, right? http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

[ErinB]

Well, maybe I'm missing something, but... why is it that the majority of the grooms are "Hispanic"? I mean, if I were an outsider I would imagine a primly dressed rider preparing to mount a horse that is held by a tall, stiff, prim looking English gentleman wearing one of those tall furry hats that the castle guards wear /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I find it hard to believe that one race of people is "better" with horses than another. So I'm confused. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif

[Fence Hopper]

My two daughters each show two horses and we do all the care. We keep the horses at our own barn and the trainer comes to our farm or we may go to his for lessons. At home we have grooms who feed and do the stalls but all other care is done by the girls.
I have a fulltime job as the Accounting Manager for a large insurance firm and I could afford full care at the shows but I look forward to the weekends when I can just cruise along and take care of the horses and the girls are learning to be responsible for thier own horses. If our trainer has a large number of horses going I will even take care of a few others. I consider it my "therapy" after crunching numbers all week! It also makes all those hours waiting around go much faster!

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kelsy:
How many Mexicans does your barn usually bring?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

None, we bring two Jews and a Catholic. geez, Kelsy....




[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 10-12-2000).]

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JumpMerit:
Has anyone else noticed how even the worst horses to bathe seem to stand stiller for the mexicans than anyone else?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm speechless.

[Cactuskate]

In a past life we always did the do-it-yourself method of horse showing. We were so small and at times I thought we looked a bit like The Grapes of Wrath pulling into the show grounds.

My recent experience of going to a show with our local barn was interesting. They had taken a groom and when we arrived my natural instincts kicked in. I felt compelled to help clear out the stalls for bedding, unload the trailers, sweep do what ever. Pretty soon I started to get the feeling I really was in this guy's way. He had a system and an incredible sense of order. I had to FORCE myself to go sit in a chair. It was a new experience.

I will say I could adjust to having someone do the prep work at a show. I have done plenty of bonding with my horse on a daily basis. It would be a treat to me.

As far as our demeanor to the grooms. They abolished slavery years ago. They are employees and of course should be respected for their work.

I took some "new to the horse show world" people with me to the Oaks a few weeks ago. WE spent alot of time standing at the back gate areas. And you know one of the things they were most appalled at was the way the "kids" seemed to be treating the grooms. And I know there are those of you out there that DO NOT do this, I have witnessed. However I did see a couple, walk up to their horses, say to the groom, "I am ready." or "My boots." Put their leg up for a leg, get on and walk off. Without as much as comment to the groom. I have probably mumbled more to my mounting block.

Don't forget there is a universal language, everyone appreciates. That look into someones eyes, and smile. Thank you is also pretty well accepted in most languages. They are people that you trust to take care of your horse. Treat them with dignity.

[JRG]

I have to say I was rather speechless when I read the original posts and a couple of the earlier replies. I thought, "am I the only one that sees something wrong with this?". Upon further reading I am glad to say I am not.

In the southern states, close to the Mexican border there is prodominatly spanish speaking communities. That is where the saying originates. However in these situations they do the jobs that Americans would not like to do in crampt accomidations and for very low money and incredibly long hours.
Now before I get really flamed here for that comment, lets remember that the poster, may not realize how wrong this type of thinking is. Ignorance is not bliss, and although we should not condone this type of thinking we should educate in an adult manner.
I myself would prefer "Groom" or "Hand", rather than, the Canadian, Mexican, or any other slur that is less than curtious.

[ponymom138]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne FS:
None, we bring two Jews and a Catholic. geez, Kelsy....

Thanks for a good tongue in cheek laugh.
People can be so thoughtless. I'll never forget the first time my daughters old trainer said something to her about "get me a mexican" and here I thought she wanted a nice cold Corona with a lime slice!!I was actually shocked when I understood what she meant but kick myself to this day for not bringing it up to her.
While at dressage at Devon a few weekends ago we were getting a program and the little ladies selling them leaned over and whispered "watch out for the gypsies.... your picnic basket is lovely and wont last long if you leave it" now I wasnt sure if she really meant there were gypsies at Devon or if the demonstration arab native costume class confused her.Of course she meant no harm and didnt realize her political incorrectness.Some ethnic stereotypes are just too ingrained and hard to get rid of. Our family will never take for granted the many lovely people helping in the horse world ( usually with a lot more manners than some of the so called "professionals". Of course we clean stalls, and groom to be able to afford our barn and would never be able to take advantage of having it done for us, but the closeness as a family and bond with the horse and pony definately makes up for the work.


[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 10-12-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JRG:

I myself would prefer "Groom" or "Hand", rather than, the Canadian, Mexican, or any other slur that is less than curtious.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Being called a Canadian or a Mexican isn't a slur!

But I know what you meant, JRG. It's using the word 'Mexican' in place of the word 'groom' that is offensive. It's narrow-minded. Maybe all of Kelsy's grooms are Mexicans; but maybe they're Mexicans and Dominicans and Texans and Costa Ricans and WASPS.

Kelsy, when you said, "how many Mexicans do you bring" it sounds like how many tack trunks do you bring. It sounded like they weren't people to you. You identified a low-paying, under-appreciated job not by it's name, but by the nationality of a people.

[Jo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
Well, maybe I'm missing something, but... why is it that the majority of the grooms are "Hispanic"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am not trying to be condesending to any racial group, but how many "privledged" people do you find are willing to work 60+ hour work weeks for minimum wage where people treat you like absolute s***?

[ErinB]

Well, not many I'd imagine, but why just them? They're just born with the ability to take long hours and low pay?

[Sweet Pea]

JRG, I felt the same way! 'Do your Mexicans speak English?' Good lord! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

[Janet]

Originally posted by ErinB:"Well, maybe I'm missing something, but... why is it that the majority of the grooms are "Hispanic"?"


Probably for the same reason that the majority of the grooms when I was a kid were black.

There is quite a high demand, but nobody is willing to pay much.

And many WASPs think it is "beneath them".

You can start out with relatively few skills or training. (And if you come from a rural agrarian economy, you probably already have the basic skills.)

Working conditions are somewhat better than migrant labor.

Room, if not board, is often provided.

Additional reasons for non-English speaking immigrants (who may not have working papers)-

Not as likely to be raided by the INS as working in a resaturant.

Lack of English is not a major impedimet (especially if there are already other grooms speaking your language).

Employers are willing to hire people without papers.

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
I don't think that me or Kelsey were trying to be mean or ofend anyone. She was just wondering. And I just answered the question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, Marion~ That's right, I didn't mean to offend anyone! I was just trying to start a discussion on your grooms... Sometimes I don't realize it when I say bad things, i.e. the Mexicans. I'm just so used to me and my friend reffereing to them as Mexicans, that's what everyone does and I shouldn't have said it on here. SORRY.

[Magnolia]

I live near a ton of Mexicans and they are the nicest people I've ever met. They set a fabulous example for how we should live. Those grooms you have now, in 20 years, their children will be horse owners.
I hope that everyone (no matter how you refer to them mexicans, grooms, hispanics whatever) appreciate what they do for you. It pisses me off when people write them off as being dumb. It happens all the time here. I see sales clerks treat them so rudely and accuse them of being dumb it makes me sick (all because during their 60 hours of work a week building your cheap house, they haven't perfected their english.)
They are intelligent people with a lot of common sense and inherent good naturedness. I have a feeling they will comprise a large quantity of our leaders in the future.

[Chesapeake]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kelsy:
How many Mexicans does your barn usually bring? Do your Mexicans speak English? Only some of mine do so it makes it hard.

<3, Kelsey

[This message has been edited by Kelsy (edited 10-11-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sure that you weren't trying to sound rude, but that sounded awful. Maybe its just me, but saying "Mexicans" really sounds stereotypical. A lot of people *do* have Spanish speaking grooms, but first of all that doesn't make them Mexican, and secondly, calling them grooms sounds so much better.

Sorry to single you out (you're certainly not the first person that I've heard say that), but to me that's really rude.

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
I live near a ton of Mexicans and they are the nicest people I've ever met. They set a fabulous example for how we should live. Those grooms you have now, in 20 years, their children will be horse owners.
I hope that everyone (no matter how you refer to them mexicans, grooms, hispanics whatever) appreciate what they do for you. It pisses me off when people write them off as being dumb. It happens all the time here. I see sales clerks treat them so rudely and accuse them of being dumb it makes me sick (all because during their 60 hours of work a week building your cheap house, they haven't perfected their english.)
They are intelligent people with a lot of common sense and inherent good naturedness. I have a feeling they will comprise a large quantity of our leaders in the future.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People seem to think that because I asked if they spoke English I said they were dumb. They're not dumb and I know that. I was just wondering about the langauge because I don't speak any Spanish so I can't communicate well with mine.

And we often spend a few weeks a year in our family's house in Cancun and I always see nice Mexicans there. I have nothing against them. They're nice people and have never been anything but nice to me.

[LisaW-B]

"How many Mexicans do you bring?" sounds the same as "How many saddle pads do you bring?"

I don't care if you're 16 or 60, or HOW you and your friends are accustomed to talking around the barn, you'd better stop it now unless you always intend to travel in elitist, racist circles throughout your life. But maybe someone who doesn't tack up their own horse at a show WILL always travel in elitist, racist circles, so in that case, I guess it doesn't matter if you treat some people like property.

Wait--isn't the Civil War over?

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LisaW-B:
"How many Mexicans do you bring?" sounds the same as "How many saddle pads do you bring?"

I don't care if you're 16 or 60, or HOW you and your friends are accustomed to talking around the barn, you'd better stop it now unless you always intend to travel in elitist, racist circles throughout your life. But maybe someone who doesn't tack up their own horse at a show WILL always travel in elitist, racist circles, so in that case, I guess it doesn't matter if you treat some people like property.

Wait--isn't the Civil War over? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can tack up my own horse, and I am not racist. Did you see my last post? I think they're nice people. You seem to be stereo-typing people who have grooms, isn't that wrong? Just because you have grooms doesn't mean you are bad. Geez...

[Flash44]

I know a lot of gentlemen from Mexico who work at the track. Most of them live at the track, and send about 90% of their pay home to their families. The dollar is so strong in Mexico that these individuals can make enough money here in 10 years that they can retire to Mexico for the rest of their lives. They own nice houses (paid for) and cars, and can send their children to college. I've been out of college for about 11 years, and while not hopelessly in debt (mortgage, 1 car payment), I won't be retiring anytime soon! So who are the smart ones?

Also, what exactly are you all doing that you need grooms for your one horse? Don't you know how to get a horse clean? My trainer takes a load of students to a local show and tells them, come find me when you need to school. He is so busy riding and coaching, he can't possibly mother hen his students. Try it, it is really not stressful to tack and bathe your own horse. You just have to have a plan and work a little.

[Merry]

The whole "Mexican groom" thing is especially pervasive here in Calif. As an example, my family has a small ranch (farm?), and we literally have our horses, yes, in the backyard... but they're fancy horses, and it's a NICE backyard... with an arena, lights and jumps (am I okay now?). Plus, my mom and I do all the work: mucking, feeding, etc. Keeps us both young and fit! This year we had to have some warranty work done on the barn. And the company rep, this big guy, comes out to inspect the damage. He goes into the damaged stall with my mom and me, and agrees to fix the problem, but then kicks away some of the bedding and says, "You have to make sure the damp shavings are kept away from the metal frame. Tell your Mexicans to do a better job." My mom and I just stared at each other, not knowing what to say. When the guy left I told my mom, "Okay, you can be Maria and I'll be Juanita." Kind of funny, but sort of sad, too. Grooming and mucking are not glamorous jobs, but it's the way I was brought up: when I was a kid, my first instructor MADE us do all of our own work to be better horsemen/women. Furthermore, at least around my neck of the woods, immigrants from Mexico (legal and otherwise) are often taken advantage of at some --not all, don't flame me-- of the show barns because they're willing to do work that some folks feel is beneath them.

[B.G.M. heidi]

Unfortunately, exploitation is a borderless practise. A while back I was at the barn of a prominent, former Cdn Olympian, who boasted that the 'best immigrant is an illegal one'.

We here in Canada like to hire young peripatetic Europeans kids (and some are as young as 16) to assume all the tasks that we deem beneath us - mucking, grooming, feeding, cleaning one's house - for pitiful pay, unfit accomodations, with plenty of threats and bullying thrown in.

As for grooms, well, our 10-year-olds first job will be to 'apprentice' with the grooms whom we've had the honour of meeting. She will learn more about horsemanship from them, I suspect, than from some trainers, coaches, and especially some of her friends/competitors in the sport.

[hobson]

I, too, thought the initial post must have been a joke...and it's a class issue as well as one of race/ethnicity. I've witnessed some shockingly crass behavior on the part of show riders towards grooms, and it was obvious to me that the relationship perfectly mirrors that between the ruling classes and their servants in any other context. My goodness, sometimes I'm grateful that I've always been too poor to make it to the top-rated shows, with this sort of attitude so commonplace.

[Palisades]

Wow...I really thought those first posts were a joke. When I realized they weren't, I was so DISGUSTED that I had to force myself to stay away from my computer for an entire day so that I wouldn't say something that would get me kicked off here.

This past summer, my barn took 11 horses to a week long "A" show that was 3 hours from home. Do you know how many Mexicans (or other grooms) we took? NONE!!! Everyone took care of their own horses!!! One rider was a our designated braider, and we all paid her for that. A lot of people pitched in on mucking, feeding, etc. and our coaches did all the late night/early morning stuff (in addition to coaching!). My friend and I spent an hour digging trenches in the rain because the grounds were flooding and we thought it was more important that our horses stayed dry then us "being relaxed before our class" was.

I'm not even going to get into the racial slurs thing...although that was pretty bad in and of itself. But who says that any groom deserves to be treated like a peice of property? I've got to agree with whoever said that it sounded like "how many Mexicans are you bringing?" could easily have meant how many tack trunks or saddle pads.

Kelsey, not to single you out, but someone said that you are probably young. Well, I'm 16 and I find it disturbing that it is okay to act that way if you are young. If you are not taught properly when you are young, what do you think is going to happen when you are "old enough to know better"??? When you hit 18, you don't suddenly transform into a P.C. person, not unless you were taught earlier. Please, everyone do all us teens a favour, and don't assume that because we are "only teenagers" we don't know any better. You bet your a** we know better, some of us choose to act like snots anyway!!!

BTW, how did the American horse show world get so elitest that there is now a market for illegal immigrants to flood up there and take all these jobs as grooms? Don't any of you guys actually do your own work?!? Okay, so it is a huge generalization to say that all Americans use grooms, or that all Canadians don't. But when a teenage girl gets on this bb and casually asks, "how many Mexicans do you use, do they speak english?" and gets dozens of replies going, "well, I bring 2 or 3, most of them only speak spanish" it really gives a bad image of your country. Why don't all of you who do routinely use Mexicans try going to one show and doing the work yourself. I'm sure if you do, you will notice 3 things:
1) A lot of people use grooms out there, more than is warranted (you tend to notice it more when you do your own work)
2)Wow, it didn't kill me to hose down my own horse.
3)What the h*ll was I thinking, posting such a racist, elitest, snobbish, and downright appalling comment like that for?!?

Now that I'm late for school, I'm going to go...sorry for the length. And thanks to everyone who expressed similiar disgust...scary, isn't it?

[Palisades]

I just remembered another post I wanted to reply to. Someone asked..."why is it that horses always behave better for the Mexicans than anyone else?" The answer: because the "Mexicans" actually spend time with them! Go hug your horse.

[BayHorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Weatherford:
And, Si, the Irish economy being what it is these days, they are probably hiring you English to groom for them, right? http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/tongue.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not wrong, two grooms of my acquaintance (used to live with us) went to work in Irish Studs! But there is a BIG irish community in Manchester (where I live).

[G]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Palisades:
I just remembered another post I wanted to reply to. Someone asked..."why is it that horses always behave better for the Mexicans than anyone else?" The answer: because the "Mexicans" actually spend time with them! Go hug your horse.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't even go there....

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
Well, maybe I'm missing something, but... why is it that the majority of the grooms are "Hispanic"?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ErinB, may I respectfully and gently attempt to explain what you are missing?

Asking a question like 'why is it that the majority of grooms are Hispanic' often means the questioner has only been in their small world and has a narrow view. If you were a traveller to the the north, the midwest, to the east, to England, to Europe you might not think that all grooms are Hispanic.

The danger comes when we make assumptions about a race of people based on our own limited experience of them.

For instance, when I lived in Miami, I once was driving through a poor area of the city, where the population was 95% black, with an acquaintance of mine from Peru named Raoul. With great disgust, Raoul said: these people are awful, they can't take care of anything. Look what the blacks did to this section of Miami! They're all the same & only want to be on welfare.

Now is that idiotic or what? His experience of dark-skinned people was that they all lived in slums. Excuse me Raoul, what about the black architects, teachers, physicians, Supreme Court Justices fer cryin' out loud???? But he judged an entire race by one bad neighborhood in one city in the world. A very narrow-minded man.

Does anyone remember the book "Gentleman's Agreement" by Laura Z. Hobson? It's about making assumptions about an entire race of people. The title comes from the 'gentleman's agreement' to not allow Jewish people into country clubs, etc.

Hmmm, I saw Gloria Estefan, Christine Aguillera and Ricky Martin on VH-1 last night. Why is it that the majority of singers are Hispanic?

[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 10-13-2000).]

[Jo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jax:
Don't even go there.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not? Truth hurts? Think about it -- if you're taking "Mexicans" to do your dirty work, you're only up top for about an hour... Who's spending the other 23 hours with them? Who's tacking up, grooming, mucking, feeding? I'm always appreciative of who brings me food and keeps my house clean (well, when I was younger... Now I do it...)... I bet the horses are too.

[Canter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anne FS:
ErinB, may I respectfully and gently attempt to explain what you are missing?


[This message has been edited by Anne FS (edited 10-13-2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anne would it have been any better if ErinB had asked,

"Why is it in the United States that so many Hispanic people have chosen to enter the equine industry in the past ten years?"

Perhaps that's what she was asking?

And if so, wouldn't this be a legitmate question?

Not being confrontational. Just asking. Genuinely curious. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Flash44]

Because all the Americans are on welfare or disability, and suing someone else for income...

[Anne FS]

Canter, I know you're not being confrontational. Again, I was trying to point out that if we take a limited personal experience and extrapolate it to define a race of people, we can often come to erroneous conclusions.

I've been to a ton of horse shows in the last 10 years and now that I think about it, the majority of the grooms I saw were not Hispanic. If the question was why are there so many Hispanic grooms at the Middleburg shows (or wherever ErinB meant)that's one thing, but to assume that all grooms are Mexicans ('how many Mexicans do you bring?' as Kelsy asked)is quite another assumption.

For instance, I once boarded at a barn that went through a succession of barn managers quite quickly. Each mgr did a good job as far as the horses went, which is what they were hired for, but in other matters they had a lot of problems and none of them lasted. What would you think of me if I asked, how come the majority of boarding stable managers are homeless white women with kids whose boyfriends dumped them? It would be true for my experience at that barn, but not true of barn managers in general. Asking about the Mexicans is the same as me asking how many dumped white girls with kids do you bring to a show. Assuming that every barn mgr is an unwed mother with no other recourse than to move into somebody's basement is as silly as assuming that every Mexican I see will wipe the **it from my boots.

Now do you see?

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Canter:
Anne would it have been any better if ErinB had asked, "Why is it in the United States that so many Hispanic people have chosen to enter the equine industry in the past ten years?"

Perhaps that's what she was asking? And if so, wouldn't this be a legitmate question? Not being confrontational. Just asking. Genuinely curious. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazingly enough, I was just reading some research papers on the uninsured and small business labor market differences in California, to be exact (what kind of job requires this sort of exciting Friday afternoon activity, you ask? Don't... /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) Here are some interesting thoughts and numbers from the research paper...

"...However, it is important to note that Hispanics are not necessarily less likely than other races to be insured simply because they are Hispanic; Hispanics are often less educated and earn less than workers of other races..."

Additionally, here are some key statistics:

% hispanic workers at or below poverty level - 14% (white = 4%)
% hispanics earning less than $10/hr - 58% (white - 35%)

What you have here is the age old quandary of a booming economy along with a disparate education system. If you were born/raised in Mexico or a poorer neighborhood in this country, your access to an education system that would give you the kind of education that could effectively get you out of the $10/hour ($21,000/year) labor market is limited at best.

However, given the incredible shortage of labor, and the general unwillingness of the "white" american labor market to engage in agricultural labor, the US has a huge demand for someone, anyone to do the work. So, not surprisingly, there has been a huge influx of green card and illegal immigrant labor filling these (and other low paying jobs). Due to legal and education status, it can be very difficult to move up the pay scale ladder, but as with every other immigrant population, it will eventually happen.

(Example - my german immigrant great grandparents worked in low paying jobs... their kids had better ones, and so on. Of course, things were drastically improved when some of the grandkids had the foresight to marry some very well-educated Mexican-Americans...)

Wow! here is a topic I never imagined I would be talking about on a the BB!!

[Palisades]

Right on, Jo! That is exactly the response I hoped my post would get!

[Canter]

Ahhhh... so the reason would be because;

a) Most equine jobs at the grooming level are low paying.

b) There is a great reluctance on the part of people living in the US to work in perceived low paying industries.

c) Immigrants are willing to go for "entry level" ie. low paying jobs in an effort to establish themselves.

This is correct?

Thanks for all your info. Just wanted to know a few of the "why's"

[Magnolia]

I think we should appreciate the fact that these people come here and work hard jobs and do them well. Frankly, if you come here, and support yourself you should be a citizen.
I think everyone agrees that they are good people on this post, but please give them the same respect you give others. There are many horrible people in this country who think they should be deported for wanting a better lives.
Go out and educate - if you hear a fool say "Kick 'em all out" tell them about the gentleman that cares for your horses. Take the time to TALK to them - learn a bit of spanish, teach a bit of english.
I don't believe in this class system that America is becoming - YOU CAN LEARN FROM THOSE WHO ARE POOR. YOU CAN LEARN A LOT!! Treat them like your peers, not your servants. The friendliest, funniest person I work with is the JANITOR!! The "dumb jock" at the gym showed me how to do squats safely. The non-english speaking groom can make you a better horseperson - just give him a few minutes of your time.
Sorry to amble on, yet another issue that makes me mad.

[DMK]

Canter, I think you pretty much have it down, except that I would change "b" to say "certain sectors" of low paying industries. Meaning if you have a choice between an ag job at $10/hour or Burger King at $10/hour, the average American seems to prefer BK as a jop opportunity. Personally, I didn't last more than 2 months in the fast food industry when in HS/College... in short order I found myself working either in a feed store or back at the farm/track... of course, I have NEVER fit the profile of an "average" American /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Hardly there]

I agree with both of Palisades above posts.
Some of the posts here really shocked me.

[lauriep]

I just wanted to speak to the logistics of the change-over in nationalities of grooms today. As someone mentioned earlier, at one point, they were nearly all African-American. During my tenure on the east coast, there were very few A-A grooms left at the shows, and 99% of the grooms were white, mostly female but with a healthy dose of male. At this point in time, a well-known trainer departed CA and moved east to work for/with George Morris. Along with her came the first Hispanic grooms (to move east and stay)who worked for Hunterdon. This soon became an onslaught, due to their willingness to work for low wages ( I didn't think they could get any lower than mine)! Here in rural VA, 10 years ago you would NEVER see someone of Hispanic descent; now they are about the only help that you will see in fruit orchards, tobacco fields, etc., where once these positions were held by African-Americans. Just an interesting trend to me.

[G]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jo:
Why not? Truth hurts? Think about it -- if you're taking "Mexicans" to do your dirty work, you're only up top for about an hour... Who's spending the other 23 hours with them? Who's tacking up, grooming, mucking, feeding? I'm always appreciative of who brings me food and keeps my house clean (well, when I was younger... Now I do it...)... I bet the horses are too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but I take offense to the fact that I don't "hug my horse" or spend any time with him. And its not just me, either. Every single rider in my barn babies the crap out of their horses, both at shows when they're using grooms and at home when they're not. In fact, several of these riders, who are top juniors, keep their horses at their homes and do the work themselves. Our horses are well cared for, I see my horse every day and always make a point of grooming him or giving him a treat even when I'm riding another horse since he's waiting for the farrier to replace his shoe. The point is that the old "oh, you have someone tack up your horse for you at shows, you don't love him or really know his personality, blah blah blah" stereotype is showing up again, and it just makes me sick.

[DMK]

Hmmm... you mean if it isn't fair to stereotype about grooms, it might be equally unfair to generalize/stereotype about the rider? That every person, regardless of race, gender, occupation, hobby or income level must stand and be judged on their own merits?

Nah... I don't think we are ready for that kind of radical thought...

[Moesha]

There is nothing wrong with having grooms and barn workers who take care of your horse. This does not mean that you do not care for and love your horse or spend time with them and brush and groom them yourself. Did anyone stop to think that having a groom gives those with tight schedules actually more time to spend with their horses. Also, There is a big difference in doing a one day show and showing over several days every week or so. If you know the environment of the A ciruit shows you know that many people need some personnel attention and help to keep organized and focus on what they are doing. Obviously the trainer cannot always afford some time and it has to be someone who knows what they are doing hence the groom. In addition many barns require you spend time on yourself and let the grooms do their work( I am talking about all grooms/working students, etc. No race in particular) In fact trainers and GROOMS get angry if you start "getting in their way and doing work they are to do and do their own way within their schedule." Another point Grooms ensure the horse gets the best immediate care after showing with someone who has a great routine and knows to get the job done.

Now, having a groom may be a sign of monetary comfort but it is not a sign of a caring person and neither is doing the work yourself.

[Canter]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Canter, I think you pretty much have it down, except that I would change "b" to say "certain sectors" of low paying industries. Meaning if you have a choice between an ag job at $10/hour or Burger King at $10/hour, the average American seems to prefer BK as a jop opportunity. Personally, I didn't last more than 2 months in the fast food industry when in HS/College... in short order I found myself working either in a feed store or back at the farm/track... of course, I have NEVER fit the profile of an "average" American /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

DMK you're so right! 20 plus years ago I chose the job mucking stalls at 2 bucks an hour over the Royal York Hotel Chambermaid job at $3.50 per hour plus tips.

Give me equine cleaning anyday.

[Moesha]

Just an addition to my post in support of the need for grooms, I prefer to do my own "work" It is great to have your horse brought to you and sometimes I choose that but I always end up re-doing everything. I just can't hop on without checking all the equipment! And knowing they were prepared properly, even though the grooms are experts at what they do. Now for some shows and if you are early in the order after the walk a groom becomes imperative to have it done right.

[TabithaCat]

In my experience, many Latino people who grew up in the more rural areas have extensive experience with animals. Most likely they prefer the outdoor work with horses to sweating over a fry cooker. The legality issue, and language difficulties, may contribute as well. There are so many jobs going begging that most people who have other options don't wish to shovel manure for a living (I realise that not all grooms, of whatever heritage, do mucking as well).

[B.G.M. heidi]

This original post is representative of the perception of equestrian sports among the 'civilian' crowd - that it's elitist, exclusionary, populated by rich, exploitative WASPs and their spoiled children mounted on horses which cost more than their homes. Given the volume of angry responses, it's clearly not the case, but it does illuminate one issue for me.

The ethnicity of grooms aside, for the most part the participants in the sport are indeed, wealthy WASPs, and I do wonder whether that dominant reality has inhibited the sport from advancing further to resemble more of a mass market sport - generating more television and mass market media coverage, able to raise more corporate sponsorship so that indeed, our young riders can venture to Europe to earn European competitive mileage.

The sport is an expensive one and by that criteria many are excluded from competitions, horse ownership, even the mere opportunity to sit on the back of a decent horse. I wonder whether there are barns in the U.S. who offer riding camps/instruction to disadvantaged children/youth? Are there personal or corporate 'scholarships' to assist the talented but financially disadvantaged young rider to pursue a career as a pro? Certainly, I can't think of one here in Canada.

This would be a wonderful opportunity to broaden the base of support for the sport, equalize it so that more can participate, introduce a child who wouldn't otherwise have the opportunity to discover the wonder of horses, perhaps teach them skills which will enable better jobs within the equine industry. And perhaps in 10-15 years time, the sport at its televised level (Grand Prixs) would be more representative of the racially diverse population of North America.

Perhaps the original posters parents can kick start a fund.

[This message has been edited by heidi (edited 10-13-2000).]

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jo:
Why not? Truth hurts? Think about it -- if you're taking "Mexicans" to do your dirty work, you're only up top for about an hour... Who's spending the other 23 hours with them? Who's tacking up, grooming, mucking, feeding? I'm always appreciative of who brings me food and keeps my house clean (well, when I was younger... Now I do it...)... I bet the horses are too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is NOT true... All the horses and ponies I have had have always loved me... I spend so much time with my horses and ponies and it's not like I have a groom for everything I do all the time. When I'm at home I'll get them ready unless I need extra help (i.e. sometimes I get to the barn late because of school or I'm in a rush to get somewhere after the barn.). I have spoiled all my horses and ponies so bad it's unreal.

[Lizzzzz]

kels~ it's liz! roanly boy is doin' so good even though he broke kate's arm last week lol. anyways about the grooms. we usually bring a few mexicans with us (not to be racist; but all of our grooms happen to be mexican so its a valid thing to say). our mexicans are really good with the ponies.

kels, i have some great pictures of the ponies from middleburg, so i'll send them to you. and i'll call you at home or your cell and try me on the cell tonight. i'll talk to you soon

~liz

[ErinB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Canter:
Anne would it have been any better if ErinB had asked,

"Why is it in the United States that so many Hispanic people have chosen to enter the equine industry in the past ten years?"

Perhaps that's what she was asking?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Canter, that's basically what I meant. Or perhaps, "why is it that everyone assumes that all grooms are Hispanic?" To be honest, yes, I am just learning. I don't like to tell people this before they see me ride or whatever, but I've only been riding about 4 years, and showing for 3 (and I'm just starting the "A" circuit"). I know a lot about the circuit from the 'net, but not a lot of personal expierience. So all the groom stuff is a whole new ballpark for me /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Now don't anyone dare look down on me for only showing a few years, 'K? I just shared confidential information! But anyway, yes Canter that's basically what I meant.

[Magnolia]

We have a bad case of classism in this country - here we have the rich girl with horses and the money for grooms being stomped on for well, being rich (and maybe being bad at wording things!). And then we all know stories of people being treated poorly because they are well, poor or the wrong color or "uneducated".
Can't we all just get along? no- probably not, but we could all learn from each other. Everybody serves a purpose and is important. I'm so darn sick of seeing people snubbed for being too rich or too poor, or educated or uneducated.

[Anne FS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
here we have the rich girl with horses and the money for grooms being stomped on for well, being rich
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nonsense!!

An uneducated statement was made on the board and commented upon. You don't know which of the people who responded are richer than Midas or poorer than a church mouse.

Most respondents tried to educate, not 'stomp on.' I never stopped to consider the economic status of the poster; apparently you did and think it matters. Do you think if the poster prefaced her comments with "I'm poor" we wouldn't have the same reaction to the Mexican comment?

[Erin]

Guys, please turn the discussion away from each other. Be nice, or I'll pull the plug... I've used up all my patience for the week.

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Guys, please turn the discussion away from each other. Be nice, or I'll pull the plug... I've used up all my patience for the week.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin- I'm sorry I had no idea that I'd cause trouble. I thought I was starting conversation... SORRY

[ErinB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kelsy:
Erin- I'm sorry I had no idea that I'd cause trouble. I thought I was starting conversation... SORRY

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, guys, I think Kelsy's definately learned, soo... why don't we give her a break now? There's no point in harping on her anymore. Not that we shouldn't continue the discussion (its been very informing for me), but I think Kelsy should be left out of it. She didn't mean to offend anyone, right? /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Spunky]

Kelsy, I'm glad that you haven't taken this discussion personally. That shows maturity, as does your apology. I think you defended yourself very well and wisely.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ~ Spunky

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spunky:
Kelsy, I'm glad that you haven't taken this discussion personally. That shows maturity, as does your apology. I think you defended yourself very well and wisely.

/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ~ Spunky<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Thanks /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Palisades]

I certainly never meant to insult Kelsy...my comments directed at her were more a comment on the state of the horse community today, and the mindset that many of the riders are coming from. I apologize if I offended you Kelsey, I didn't mean to.

Jax, if you go back and re-read my post, you will notice that I DON'T say "everyone who has a groom doesn't love their horse". The point I was trying to get across is quite simple. If the groom is the one who handles your horse most of the time, then the groom is the one the horse will behave best for. If the groom is the only one who bathes a horse at shows, then he will be the one who teaches the horse how to act in the wash stalls...if the owner decides to bathe their horse one day, they may have some difficulty because the horse won't recognize their commands as something normal. It's as simple as that. My horse always behaves better when one of the barn's employees does his stall, because he is used to them doing that. When I go in to do it one morning, he wants to talk to me, because that is what he expects me to do. I don't think that my comment on this was any reason to be defensive.

As for the "go hug your horse" thing...well, I do see a lot of riders out there who really don't seem to appreciate their horses or don't want to spend time with them (and I am not pointing fingers at anyone in particular!). So when a bunch of people start commenting on how much better their horse behaves for a groom, my first reaction is "go and spend some more time with him, and when he's more used to you, he will behave better". I know that my horse and I are better in both our riding and our groundwork when I spend a little time with him, grooming, talking, whatever.

BTW, I'm leaving for the barn now to "go hug my horse"! I think everyone reading this should do the same, whether you have a groom or not!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[AAJumper]

I think Moesha made a very good point about the need for grooms in certain show situations. Although I certainly have the ability to tack up my horse at a show, things run much smoother when someone is there worrying about making the horse look his best, while I worry about my appearance. And for the jumper classes, usually the grooms are getting my horse ready while we walk the course (or even holding the horse at the gate while we walk) so that I can get on immediately after walking. I am so anal about being on time that I know the grooms can do a much better job of getting my horse looking it's best for the show ring, and I don't get stressed about not being ready fast enough. Moesha also mentioned about riders getting in the groom's way, and I have found that to be true. Unless they have to get too many horses ready at once, it is obvious that they would rather prepare the horse without me getting in the way trying to "help".

The other issue is the cleaning of the stall and feeding. I am not always in the position of being able to hang out at the show from dawn to dusk, and thus feed my horse and clean his stall, making groom care a necessity - we don't have the option of half care. But when I'm at show all day, I help out however I can....usually helping to feed supplements in the evening, helping out at the arena, whatever.

The other thing I wanted to mention is that I actually WAS a groom for almost 4 years while I was going to college. I groomed for my trainer once or twice a week (didn't groom for customers at shows or anything though) and boy was that tough work. I have great respect for those who do it full time as a career. However, I feel fortunate in that I was able to have that experience....it really taught me how to handle a variety of horses and their personalities. I got so much education beyond what I would have learned just dealing with my own horse.

[Magnolia]

Nonsense!!

An uneducated statement was made on the board and commented upon. You don't know which of the people who responded are richer than Midas or poorer than a church mouse.

Most respondents tried to educate, not 'stomp on.' I never stopped to consider the economic status of the poster; apparently you did and think it matters. Do you think if the poster prefaced her comments with "I'm poor" we wouldn't have the same reaction to the Mexican comment?

Nope- I wasn't talking about her comment on mexicans, rather the latter comments on people putting down people that use grooms. Yes, I made as assumption that she was wealthy - just assumed (probably shouldn't have). I think the comments on respect for the Mexican groomas were great, I made some myself. But, we did have some negativaty on grooms. And, nope, her status doesn't matter, - I guess my poorly made point was that we have as bad of stereotypes for the wealthy as we do the poor.

[mwalshe]

Wow, I didn't think htis many people would reply but thank you all- I was really steamed and you restore my faith in the horse world.

FYI I have worked many seasons as a groom, although always as a working student/ground person (so not quite the same thing)and *most* people are very nice (or they can clean their own $%$%ing stalls! is actually our attitude). I have also worked many years as a rider with grooms to help me and I can tell you a good groom is worth their weight in gold to any training or show barn which is why so many of them work for the same trainer for so long-the clients may be idiots but they know they are truly appreciated by the owners/ trainers who need experienced people to help them get throught 25 horses a day. Having said that I stand by my original "no patronizing" comment, ESPECIALLY for young people- remember you are one tolerant parent away from grooming to pay for your own show habit. Yes I have worked in Europe and for Europeans in the states and they will exploit you every bit as much if not more (see the recent stories in England about laws to protect stable workers) BUT they will not expect you to be grateful for it.

Happy horsing

[Flash44]

So if good grooms are worth their weight in gold, how come they are paid so little?

[Bertie]

Flash, while some farms might be able to afford it, most horse barns don't have a very high profit margin. It's a very high overhead business and a lot of farms have to struggle to meet expenses.

[mwalshe]

Flash, basically the $$ is why, most trainers in the states where prize money is hard to come by are barely scraping by themselves, esp in dress and eventing, and with land and feed so high these days. Personally I prefer to pay someone who also rides so that I can make it up to them with lessons/training, gear, free hauling to shows or something similar but it is not always possible to do so. In fact I currently work weekends at a barn (I'm a biologist but I clean stalls, feed work with babies etc. to reduce the cost of my horse habit and heck, I enjoy just being there) One of the barns I rode at for years (as a groom/working student) has everyone ride as well as some of their kids. They have people who can ride a 4th level test or jump a 3'6" course- but only in chaps b/c they don't own tall boots, don't show and basically have no interest in it- just like to groom and work with horses but the free training is included as part of their "benefits package" so they take advantage of it. What would be really great is if the "Pro Grooms Assoc" - I believe such an association either exists or is in the works- could provide cheaper group health care and poss a retirement package because this is so expensive for small business as to be impossible. I think track employees can get this but then again you probably need a green card which might put some people off. Anyway just a thought..

[Flash44]

Do you really think any employer is going to tell their employees they CAN afford to pay them more? We just had half the employees at my company quit. All of a sudden, we remaining employees got raises, promotions, an increase in benefits, a trip to Mexico...

There is a saying, You have to spend money to make money. If the grooms were getting paid better, you would have more people WANTING to be grooms.

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
Do you really think any employer is going to tell their employees they CAN afford to pay them more? We just had half the employees at my company quit. All of a sudden, we remaining employees got raises, promotions, an increase in benefits, a trip to Mexico...

There is a saying, You have to spend money to make money. If the grooms were getting paid better, you would have more people WANTING to be grooms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay I hope this isn't offensive... I have to be really careful what I say, lol. I don't think there's a great need for grooms right now; for my family/barn, at least, it's been very easy to find them. Hispanic people often get jobs in Landscaping, construction, grooming, because they're hard workers so I think there will always be alot of Hispanic people who would be willing to do the work, so it wouldn't really matter if people raised their pay because they would work anyways.

[woodbern]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kelsy:
so it wouldn't really matter if people raised their pay because they would work anyways.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kelsy dear..... I took up for you fairly strongly on another thread.... but even I am reaching the end of my limit here.

Please, PLEASE think through your posts!!!! It would certainly matter to the grooms if the pay was raised!

Read your posts over thoroughly before making them..... I know that you are young, but for heaven's sake, try to think of how the other person (in this case, the grooms) might feel. It's not that people have to pay them more money, it's the fact of whether or not they should be paid more as a matter of fairness and decency.

I would work on thinking these things through more carefully if I were you.

[Lizzzzz]

Hi, this is Kelsey's friend Liz. Okay, you guys really... on that last post, Woodbern, I don't think Kelsey said anything offensive and she even went so far as to tell you it wasn't meant to be offensive because so often what she says gets taken the wrong way here. I think what she is saying is that it would make a difference for the grooms if there was a raise BUT it wouldn't draw more people into the business because so many people are already there. Really people, don't be so sensitive. I'm older than Kelsey by 2 years and she's very mature but she sometimes doesn't say things the right way. If it offends you, grin and bear it. You already badgered her every time she posted so I think she knows not to call the grooms Mexicans (which many people do) and not to ask about luxuries that so many of us have (i.e. golf carts). She's trying to watch her step but I think you guys make it too hard.

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by woodbern:
Kelsy dear..... I took up for you fairly strongly on another thread.... but even I am reaching the end of my limit here.

Please, PLEASE think through your posts!!!! It would certainly matter to the grooms if the pay was raised!

Read your posts over thoroughly before making them..... I know that you are young, but for heaven's sake, try to think of how the other person (in this case, the grooms) might feel. It's not that people have to pay them more money, it's the fact of whether or not they should be paid more as a matter of fairness and decency.

I would work on thinking these things through more carefully if I were you.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sorry...I know they should be raised and that's not what I was saying. The grooms do alot of hard work and raised pay would help.

[Lil Bow Wow]

Wazup homies?? At da shows I got da full care thang goin on. Ma grooms (Felipe, Gualdalope, and Jose) tack all ma horses and do all dat stuff. When I ride at home ma grooms just be dere for da moral support.. ya no yo?? Day are just dere in case i need 'em.

I think dat at da shows, when yo got more den 3 or 4 of dem horses, you need da help. I aint sayin that yo cant do it without 'em but it helps yo.

Ma grooms and I be very tight. We show da love. I think dat you people at 'em boards need to show da love a lil more. Dis fightin aint goin no where. Jus because some of us people got da groom thang doin on doesnt mean dat we be rich snobs, ya no what i mean yo??

[woodbern]

Okay, Kelsy..... I take your word for what you meant..... I just got frustrated for a minute!

Remember, I'm on your side sugar!

[Flash44]

There is a difference between being good at your job and being knowledgable. How many grooms have taken college level courses in anatomy, physiology, kinesiology, nutrition, chemistry (necessary in today's show ring!), etc? I'm sure some have, but the majority have not. While we are on the subject, how many trainers have that kind of education?

Meanwhile, grooms are usually the first people who raise the alarm when something is wrong with a horse. Who is looking after your 6 figure show horse during the time it takes for the vet or trainer to show up? What is that person doing during that time to help save your horse's life or usefulness? maybe if that position paid more, people with more knowledge would be willing to do a good job, instead of those who lack the education to get a better paying job.

I know that a lot of grooms know a lot about the care and well being of horses, but how did they get that knowledge? In a classroom at an accredited university? On the job? Whose horses were they looking after while learning to do the job?

Maybe if trainers spend a little less on tack stall decorations, potted plants, chrome trailers and white polos, they could "afford" to pay their help better.

[moose]

"The rich are not like you or me, -yes, they have more money."

I don't know made the quote, if it was F.Scott Fitzgerald and it's not meant as a dig, but thats the only difference I see here, more money versus less money. We all have the same emotions, problems with stereyotypes, bad days whether we are rich or poor, backyard, mexican etc. and I guess the most important word I can think of here is "respect"(I need to remember it to, since I also have a temper).

Imho, please don't say things in a politically correct manner so that it sounds proper, unless you mean it.

The statements of "it isn't a crime to be poor "& "it isn't a crime to be rich" are true-in this country. Instead of just giving to charities, have a conversation with one of the "mexicans" at the barn. I'm just as guilty as anyone in having used that term however a conversation that I had w/ a worker at our barn slapped me in the face when I had earlier been whining about something mindless -he was here for six months and would return to mexico to his family for four-They were originally from S.A. in a country that was under dictatorship & much of his family had fled or been killed.

The next time you are having a bad day and don't think any one understands you-think about what a really bad day would be like, such as doing a trade (that some people here don't realize is a trade) in a foreign country, possibly as an illegal, not speaking the language, no pension package or insurance in this job, and probably in more sitations then not, no respect. The only draw is that in this country, along with the ability to vote, luck & hard work, your children or your children's children may also have the chance to be the one driving the BMW's.

And for what it matters, beyond all of the petty discusions we have on this board please remember to "vote", since the reality of what can happen when it's not allowed is probably grooming your horse as we speak.

Okay, off my soapbox and, no this was not a politically paid or sponsored post, lol.

[This message has been edited by Moose (edited 10-15-2000).]

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Moose:
"The rich are not like you or me, -yes, they have more money."

I don't know made the quote, if it was F.Scott Fitzgerald <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

IIRC, Fittzgerald said "The rich are not like you and me", and Hemmingway replied "Yes, they have more money".

In this case we are dealing with two different economic situations.

In Kelsy's case (if I am interpreting correctly), her family has decided to spend some of their discretionary income on show horses. IIUC, they are not trying to run their horse activities as a profit making enterprise. The only economic constraint on how much they pay their grooms is (on one end) the prevailing wage for grooms, and (on the other end) how much they are willing to pay.

Similarly, if I hire a local teenager to muck stalls for me, I am constrained by "what teenagers are willing to work for" and "what it is worth to me."

A barn manager or trainer is in a very different economic situation. If they pay their grooms more, they may have to raise the board they charge, which may make some of their boarders leave.

A family paying a groom only deals with economic elasticity (aka "supply and demand") at one end. The barn manager has to deal with it at both ends.

[brilyntrip]

Ok guys here's my take on grooms,it won't be popular .I do notlike my jr kids getting the groom thig It is important tome that my students know whats going on with their animals, was that bump there before or not?That they know how to tack up is a good thing ok?Unfortunately I am getting no where with the braiding OYYY!!! If we go awayover night i take soemone with me to feed and muck.If you want a groom thats fine but I dont drive new BMWs and wear cellphone on my belt loop so there ya go!

[woodbern]

Actually, the I believe the quote begins, "The rich are different....." and expands from there.

It's a marvelous and thought provoking quote, and is the preface for a story called The Rich Boy by Fitzgerald. I will see if I can find it in it's entirety and put it up.

It is often misquoted, as is the one about "the love of money is the root of all evil".

[Trixie]

it seems so disgusting.

"People seem to think that because I asked if they spoke English I said they were dumb. They're not dumb and I know that. I was just wondering about the langauge because I don't speak any Spanish so I can't communicate well with mine."

with MINE? uhhh, yours? do what?!
do you own these people? since when?

I'm sorry, this was frustrating. I work in a coffee shop and would most definitely prefer to be working at the barn but truthfully there's reasons why I never asked for a job there and they have nothing to do with loving horses or barn work (I used to work a ton of hours for free, and I LOVE doing barn work, but the reason I stopped being able to also coincides with the reason why I won't get a job there)
I love grooming for shows on the grounds that I get treated like a person, and if I don't, I just won't do it. I don't get paid for it. I've got other ways to spend my weekend, but I love horses and horse showing so I'm always glad to groom if someone wants me to.

I just think it's really derogatory to refer to grooms as "mexicans" and as if they were yours, cause they're really not. I know it's kind of the same thing as when you say "my trainer" but it just sounds so much worse.

I've never had a groom and sometimes it scares me when people do stuff for me at the horse shows, I'm like "I can do this! No, let me get off and put on the hoof polish!" and then someone'll growl at me to stay on my pony so I don't get dirty (but knowing me I'll get dirty anyway)
I don't know
people that treat their grooms like slaves need to be broke for a while and see what it's like to do their own work

[PocoMary]

Thanks for pointing that out Trixie. Insead of saying " I cant understand mine" or "mine don't speek english" you should show a little respect for these hard working men/women and say "The grooms that work for us don't speek english" You don't own these people treat them with respect.

[Bertie]

Hoping not to be politically incorrect but...If the Virginia Clique was to go, en masse, out onto the circuit as grooms, (or riders, or van drivers), would they be referred to as the "Virginians"? They would of course be easily identified, if only by their taste in fashion http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/cool.gif Would they take offense at this label? What about Moesha, who we think of as a Virginian, but is a self-proclaimed District of Columbian. Would he be offended?
http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/confused.gif

WAY too much time on my hands this weekend!

[This message has been edited by Bertie (edited 10-15-2000).]

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Trixie:

with MINE? uhhh, yours? do what?!
do you own these people? since when?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you are being over sensitive. I have been known to refer to both "my boss" and "my administrative assistant" (both of which I "share" with about 5 other people) as "mine" without any sense of "ownership".

[heelsdown]

Use of language can be a scary thing. I worked on yachts for years and used to refer to the owner of the yacht I worked on as "my owner". Many of my friends who still work in this end of the marine industry still say this and it makes me cringe.

[HSM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
I think you are being over sensitive.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't Trixie was being too sensitive. Let's see...post # 1: "What kind of groom do you have?" post#2 "What kind of golf cart/scooter do you have?"

[Astraled]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by HSM:
I don't Trixie was being too sensitive. Let's see...post # 1: "What kind of groom do you have?" post#2 "What kind of golf cart/scooter do you have?"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


No, post #2 was "Do you prefer a golf cart/scooter/dirtbike/etc". Just an opinion poll, like favorite saddle, new shirt, et.al.

Give Kelsy a break, please /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif. She's apologized already!

[Flash44]

My son used to apologize every time that he pooped in his pants. At least until he got potty trained. Not that there is any parallel. Really.

[nutmeg]

...and the children shall lead us! Kelsy has innocently (or not?) generated two very thought-provoking threads which have fascinated me not only because of the general quality of discussion but because we have been able to watch her grow and learn. So thank you Kelsy, and I join those who have already saluted you for staying in the conversation even when it seemed to be going against you.

[ClemsonGraduateRider]

I feel like I am in congress where all they ever do is fight with each other when they should in fact be making laws.

Oh now I have offended all the people who have ever known a congressman . . .oh I have also offended all the people who have ever lobbied to get laws passed . . .and i have offended anyone who ever wants to be a congressman and now I have offended all the people who want it to be called congresswoman . . see how this can get a little out of hand????????????

This is getting a little ridiculous guys . . .Kelsey was just trying to start some threads that she thought people would want to respond too. After all most of these topics (as well as hers) are about showing. I do not have grooms (and some of the grooms that I have come to know and love ARE IN FACT FROM MEXICO . . .aka MEXICANS) or a scooter or a golf cart or show at A shows or drive a BMW or whatever but I was not particularly offended by Kelsey's posts. I understood that she was just trying to start post's and may not have posed them the best way.
I think that at one time or another everyone on this board has said something that offended at least ONE other person on the board but did they get totally bashed . . . ?

I am surprised (although glad because everyone's opinion is important . even if we don't agree with it) that Kelsey is still here. I hope that you all have not totally scared her into hiding . . however maybe if she went into hiding she could start a peep protection program . . . . .

[woodbern]

So, is Anyplace Farm your maiden name or your married name?

Give the kid a break.

[This message has been edited by woodbern (edited 10-16-2000).]

[Magnolia]

Anyplace-
It would be nice if all teenagers were aware of being PC all the time... but they aren't. You don't need to insult the poor girl, and if you look at another of her posts on another thread, this little "snot" volunteers and donates a substantial portion of her allowance to charity.
I think she got the idea of being more sensitive about her grooms, you didn't need to insult her.

[Anyplace Farm]

Nope, sorry. No break given. Couldn't the question simply have been, "How many grooms do you guys have?" The whole point here was the kid said 'Mexicans'. In her mind, all grooms are simply 'Mexicans'. She made a generalization. I have aboslutely no problem chewing a racist up and spitting them out at the earliest opportunity, regardless of their age. Comments like that deserve no slack whatsoever.

[This message has been edited by Anyplace Farm (edited 10-16-2000).]

[Erin]

Anyplace, comments like that have NO place on this board, especially directed towards a KID who's already apologized for what she said.

She said something that was construed as offensive. She apologized.

Move on.

[Anyplace Farm]

Erin, I actually emailed you VERY early on about this post and never heard back from you. This isn't a matter of whether someone is offended by drawreins or not. You are talking about human beings here. When you allow posts to sit on the board that refer specifically to an issue as important as racism, I really feel you should be sensitive to those pleas that ask that it be removed before so much attention is paid to it as this post has drawn? Do these posts stay up here because we just looooove to see the banter? Go ahead, leave it up and see how many more people are offended. There are most likely plenty who are who haven't said a word.

Great. She apologized. Leave that up for all to see and then kick it off the board so the conversation doesn't continue. The longer it is there, the more heated these things get. But, leave it to horse people to want to keep something like this around so everyone can see the little flames burning on the little folder next to it. Sad.

[woodbern]

Well go away then, if you are so exercised. Who died and made you queen of all things tasteful, correct and PC?

You've made your point and Erin has responded. Start your own BB or whatever.

[Magnolia]

Actually, I think this thread became very constructive as people thoughtfully replied with suggestions that more respect for grooms was in order. Who knows, maybe upon reading this thread, some people decided to get to know the grooms and communicate better with them.
I'm sure Kelsey read this and has changed her ways with regards to addressing the grooms that work for her.
This is a conversation we as a society need to have, and this is the way we need to have it. Nothing is accomplished by calling names, rather we need to educate why her post was offensive to some, not accuse her of being a racist.

[Erin]

Yeah, you didn't hear back from me because I've had my hands a bit full. And by the time I looked at the thread, everyone had already given Kelsey a pretty good talking-to. So I didn't think it was necessary.

Her comments were clearly offensive to LOTS of people. They told her so. That's the purpose of open discussion. And she probably learned a helluva lot more from that than from me "kicking" the thread off the board.

[Anyplace Farm]

Erin, your comments are definitely appreciated and I'm glad to hear you did at least get my email.

Woodbern - there is no need for me to start a new board, as I plan on continuing to read and post right here. This is not the first time an offensive post has shown up on the board and also not the first time 'exercised' comments have followed.

[rockstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Anyplace Farm:
Erin, your comments are definitely appreciated and I'm glad to hear you did at least get my email.

Woodbern - there is no need for me to start a new board, as I plan on continuing to read and post right here. This is not the first time an offensive post has shown up on the board and also not the first time 'exercised' comments have followed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Did you stop to think that you are just as offensive as Kelsy, just in a different manner? Keep posting... but if Kelsy should watch what she says than maybe you should too. While you run to the defense of one group you risk smashing into another group at the same time. So how about walking? say what you want in defense of whoever you want ... but does it have to be so mean? I guess that you think that that is how people change their minds... but it's not!

[This message has been edited by rockstar (edited 10-16-2000).]

[cdnmoon]

As offended as I was by the original post.... (offended enough to stay away from here for a while actually) I was equally horrified to read one of Kelsy's replies....

"And we often spend a few weeks a year in our family's house in Cancun and I always see nice Mexicans there. I have nothing against them."

Children are products of their parents.... rich, snobby horseshow parents. grrrrrr....... I must get off this board!!!!!!!

[Hephaistion]

LOL! I noticed that statement too CdnMoon!

Where else would you expect to find Mexicans, if not in Cancun!?!? Last time I checked it was part of the Republic of Mexico! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Kelsy]

HOW MANY MORE TIMES CAN I APOLOGIZE PEOPLE? IM SORRY... GEEZ...This is so frustrating.

[ErinB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cdnmoon:
Children are products of their parents.... rich, snobby horseshow parents. grrrrrr....... I must get off this board!!!!!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Cdnmoon, that was not called for. I don't know why you are still offended by Kelsy's actions as she's apologized sincerely about a dozen times already. The snip about "rich, snobby horseshow parents" isn't making this board any friendlier, and if you leave this board, try BigEQ, or perhaps you'd prefer Towerheads? That is definately THE place to go if you are offended by asking how many grooms one has. http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif Personally (to everyone) I think our moderators here are great and deciding which posts to leave and which ones to delete, and before you question it why not ponder the thinking behind it? I for one have learned a lot from these and other "controversial" posts, as have a lot of people. There is nothing wrong with it. And back to my original subject, Kelsy has apologized many, many times for this post, and digging it in further isn't going to help any. What's been done is done, and for Pete's sake, a couple of questions meant in all innocence about grooms and scooters pales in comparison to the stuff we've seen here before! So really, give her a break already!

[ClemsonGraduateRider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kelsy:
HOW MANY MORE TIMES CAN I APOLOGIZE PEOPLE? IM SORRY... GEEZ...This is so frustrating.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kelsy . . . .You need not apologize anymore for the people who haven't understood the apology never will. I hope that you will continue to post here as everyone's opinion and knowledge is important. I think that you have learned your lesson about how to phrase things and that is the most important thing.

I personally invite you to help me with the Peeps Defense Fund . . . /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Paige]

Ok, I'm going to try to say a few things. I may have run out of luck with clear, mature posts, but oh well. First of all, if I am wrong on any of these points, please do correct me. With Anyplace Farm's orginal post gone, its kinda like doing a proof without the given. First of all, i do know Anyplace, though i have not conversed with her. Also, I do not think she rushed in here and made a hasty(grr...I hate that word) post, as she emailed Erin before saying anything whatsoever.
Similar to Kelsy, she may have come off wrong in the way she posted. But was what she said any worse? Why was her post taken away and not Kelsy's? I was the first one to point out how offeneded I was at the post about Mexicans. I was very careful about how I said it, due the to fact that no one had said anything yet. But I'm sure I was just as angry as Anyplace was. So, basically what i'm saying, is that if most people agree that we should stop teaching Kelsy at lesson, why teach Anyplace one too? Erin has obviously reprimanded her, it is not our responsbility to do that (especially because i'm a child! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) One last thought, to Woodbern. It may be your opinion that Anyplace was out of line. Erin will tell her if she was, you do not need to follow suit. I thought your posts referring to Anyplace's user name and then her political correctness were offensive as well. I, personally, respect anyone who does a sucessful job of being politcally correct, I wish I could be like that.
As my final though, I do agree that Erin should delete this thread. The topic of grooms can obviously not be discussed in a manner that does not offend most everyone, and therefore not fit for this BB.

[G]

Ok guys, I have read this WHOLE thread as its been developing and I must say that I am disgusted w/ some of the responses that are from ADULTS towards CHILDREN. Ok, maybe its because I'm only 14, but still... Do you really have to hide behind the anonymity offered by the internet in order to insult a junior? You people putting down Kelsey are as wrong as any of the snippy, bratty kids in my school who talk behind each others' backs, etc etc. But whatever... I know Kelsey, in fact I met her through a BB and then met her at Devon and she is a great girl, very sweet and fun to be with. Sometimes 14 year olds don't think. I know that I don't sometimes. So sue me... Last time I checked 14 year olds weren't required to be with the program, PC, socially aware, etc etc 24/7. Give her a break...

[Erin]

If people here can handle talking about eating disorders, alcohol/drug abuse, and homosexuality, you can certainly handle this.

I'm not here to babysit and remove the threads that make people act like kindergarteners. If you all dig yourself into a hole, as Kelsy did, you're going to have to dig yourself out. If you disagree, you're going to have to sort it out without name-calling.

The reason I deleted Anyplace Farm's post is because it was insulting and downright mean. At least Kelsy's insults were inadvertent.

Now either find something constructive to talk about, or agree to disagree and drop it.

[heelsdown]

Kelsy posted several things which revealed a frightening degree of elitism. Kelsy has been very fortunate in her birth, she obviously has not a worry in the world about having a roof over her head or food on the table. I suspect that Kelsy is usually surrounded by others like herself who speak as she does. Oblivious to the tone of classism, snobbishness, and racism she made clear on this board. Or perhaps those who would know enough to correct her might be intimidated by her family. Her family, well, maybe they are too busy. Whatever.

When you post to a BB your words are recorded, no one can wonder "did she really say that?"

But without meaning to Kelsy has done a very good thing. It's made many people aware of the attitude that many of us have, without thinking about, not meaning to, towards those who work as grooms. They are people.

I hope that Kelsy and everyone who has read this thread thinks twice about categorizing people, and as difficult as it may be, try to imagine walking a mile or two in their shoes, before you get into that Beamer that you got on your 16th birthday.

[Kelsy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by heelsdown:
Kelsy posted several things which revealed a frightening degree of elitism. Kelsy has been very fortunate in her birth, she obviously has not a worry in the world about having a roof over her head or food on the table. I suspect that Kelsy is usually surrounded by others like herself who speak as she does. Oblivious to the tone of classism, snobbishness, and racism she made clear on this board. Or perhaps those who would know enough to correct her might be intimidated by her family. Her family, well, maybe they are too busy. Whatever.

When you post to a BB your words are recorded, no one can wonder "did she really say that?"

But without meaning to Kelsy has done a very good thing. It's made many people aware of the attitude that many of us have, without thinking about, not meaning to, towards those who work as grooms. They are people.

I hope that Kelsy and everyone who has read this thread thinks twice about categorizing people, and as difficult as it may be, try to imagine walking a mile or two in their shoes, before you get into that Beamer that you got on your 16th birthday.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seriously, Erin, could we delete the thread?

It sounds as if you are saying that my family is too busy for me. That is insulting. My parents are always there for me and they are wonderful people.

I don't think I'm racist OR a snob and I hate the fact that I came across that way.

And, I am not even 16 yet so I don't have a BMW.

[woodbern]

Kelsy, you can delete the thread since you started it.

Go back to page one of the thread, click on the icon with the pencil and paper, then when the next page appears, click on the box where it says "delete".

Presto. Gone. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[B.G.M. heidi]

Please everyone, let's remember that Kelsy is young enough to be a daughter to many of us. Adolescence doesn't excuse everything but we are fellow posters on a BB - not her parents - and it is not our job to endlessly chastise or 'punish' her. I share many people's discomfort with some of the posts in which she's participated but at the end of the day, she is under no obligation to listen to any of our rants, comments, suggestions, and stern condemnation for her original post.

Let's look at it this way - would you prefer that your own child take the advice of a complete stranger on the Internet or your own? Case dismissed. Have the very valid discussion but leave the poor child alone.

[Duffy]

Ditto to what Heidi said.

[hushpuppy]

I just have to post.....Some of you may remember that I asked about demographics among the dressage community and someone cut and pasted it here. It created a bit of a stir and I had to come by and explain myself. Since that day, I've visited here on occasion and have found myself to be fascinated by the incredible flaunting of wealth by some on this board. I've come to the conclusion that some dressage riders are intellectual snobs whereas some hunter riders are snobs of a different sort.

I don't believe we should blame Kelsey or Sandstone or any other child that has been raised in the lap of luxury for her faux pas. These kids will never know life as a working class citizen. I would, however, love to have their parents, particularly their mothers, read this entire thread, among others. I would hope that Kelsey and Sandstone's parents would realize that their kids are lacking experiences in life that could make them more caring and sympathetic people. It's doubtful that children like Kelsey will ever experience what the rest of us call life. They certainly will never rub elbows with middle class America in an intimate fashion. They will never know what it's like to pay the bills and realize there's just enough left over for groceries and the farrier bill.

Being raised outside of mainstream America, meaning middle-class America, children of the very wealthy may never learn to respect those with less. Those people who are so unfortunate as to be of the middle- or working-class will never be seen by the very rich as their equals.

[VA]

hushpuppy, life is long with many twists and turns. I think it's crazy to think that once rich always rich or that they live in a little insulated world with no knowledge of how the other half lives. I certainly would never think that they don't see others as equal!

When these kids get older and have to find a job, etc, they will start to appreciate all the things they took for granted. Or when they go to school and make friends from less wealthy backgrounds. Most likely they already have friends that are from normal tax brackets. Community service is also an eye opener.

When I was in high school (I think it's the same one Kelsey is in actually) two of my best friends were expelled and had to finish the year at the neighboring public school. I met a ton of new friends this way and it helped to break down the barriers between private and public school circles. Mainly, it showed the public school kids that we were normal, and had problems too. By far they had been the instigators of unpleasant situations because they had assumed we were all little snots and they loved taking out their resentments on us.

Just my two cents

[mwalshe]

To be fair Kelsy was far from the only one to offend on the first page of this string, and so far I believe she is the only one to apologize. Short of forcing everyone who has posted on this string to actually work as a groom for one month I think the point has been made as forcefully as possible in this venue that any person who works for a living is entitled to a respectful attitude however little they earn or however much you earn or are worth. If they didn't need the money they wouldn't bother work. Forget that and evantually life will find a way to explain it to you again. Look at all those celeb exposes! "Horse trainer writes Tell-All" =)

[This message has been edited by letsgo (edited 10-17-2000).]

[Kryswyn]

Boy, go away for a weekend and look what happens on my favorite BB! http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/rolleyes.gif

Regardless of how it was originally meant, by now Kelsy has really had it handed to her, so I vote for moving on. Also, Kelsy, I agree, you don't have to apologize anymore for being young and not saying things in a PC manner. I'm sure after this, you'll be much more PC (at least here /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Ironically, tonight I was at a gas station/mini mart chain when the cashier, a young man about 16, responding to something happening at another register said loudly, "That's just like a MORMAN, always trying to rip you off!" http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/eek.gif http://www.chronofhorse.com/ubb/mad.gif I looked over and two Morman missionaries were leaving. I was HOT HOT HOT! You should know I am not a Morman; Christian only by upbringing, not practice, but I despise discrimination and the SHEER IGNORANCE that allows it to continue. As I stepped to the register, before I paid him I looked him right in the eye and in a voice my students would have begun melting into the ground upon hearing, told him that I was VERY offended at his remarks. That they smacked of racism, ignorance and intolerance and had NO BUSINESS being voiced in a public place. He tried to explain that he was just kidding, and even said he was a Morman, and I told him that didn't change things, one: because no one could tell he was kidding and two: since Mormans look just like the rest of the WASP population how were the customers to know what his personal faith was? I hope he got the point.

[cdnmoon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ErinB:
if you leave this board, try BigEQ, or perhaps you'd prefer Towerheads? That is definately THE place to go if you are offended by asking how many grooms one has.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erin - I would hardly be offended by someone asking how many GROOMS one has... the question was how many MEXICANS one has.

I was horrified when I first read the thread and should have just packed it in at that time instead of saying anything at all. I bothers me to no end to think that I chose to keep company with people who justify this thinking by sitting in their second homes in Mexico looking down on the locals thinking "gee, those Mexicans aren't so bad". I highly doubt the Mexicans are looking at them thinking the same thing. I realize that Kelsy is just 16 - that's not the point. The point is that when Kelsy is 30, she will still be the same because her parents brought her up to be this way. Not the kind of folks I wish to associate with.

Obviously I'm out of my league on this board...I'd much rather be in a place where people are equal and treated as such regardless of race and social status.

SO LONG!

[Erin]

You all are really disappointing me lately... apparently I'm overestimating your ability to have discussion without name-calling.

And for God's sake, why can't you people just DROP something once the point has been made??! Is it honestly necessary to bash home the same ideas over and over again? Get over yourselves.

Thread closed. I'm sick of this... time to bring in babysitters, I guess...

[elizabeth]

Wow. I'm new to the board, and I am. . .
Wow. . . .
That's all.