A FINE ROMANCE

[MsHunter]

I have to write a post specific to this stallion.
I JUST got the video in the mail. It is one of the NICEST TB stallions I have EVER seen. Maybe THE nicest. People you don't know what you are missing if you are interested in breeding! This is a MUST see for avid TB breeders! I am really really excited and am going to breed one mare to him for sure!

[MsHunter]

I have to write a post specific to this stallion.
I JUST got the video in the mail. It is one of the NICEST TB stallions I have EVER seen. Maybe THE nicest. People you don't know what you are missing if you are interested in breeding! This is a MUST see for avid TB breeders! I am really really excited and am going to breed one mare to him for sure!

[spfarm]

It's funny that you brought this particular stallion up. I just received the stallion issue (yep, weeks later) and was quite surprised to see so few TB stallions. And "A Fine Romance" was about the only one that really caught my eye.
I will probably inquire about him the first part of next week, especially since Jasprin passed away.
What's happening with all the TB stallions...are there any classy ones out there, like "A Fine Romance"???

[MsHunter]

I love Absolut, he has a strong reputation for producing awesome hunters. I sold my foal quickly. EK Spatz I have offspring by, but they never advertise in the Chronicle. I have a lovely foal also by Just The Best, he is DWB/TB cross. (The closest I have come to breeding to a WB). Off the top of my head I can't think of any other TB stallions I admire. Needless to say, I am VERY happy to have gotten this tape. I really am a TB person. I am breeding back to Just The Best, the same mare. I would love to breed back to Absolut and may with that mare, and the one that has had a bunch of EK foals I am going to breed to "A Fine Romance", I am truly excited!

[saratoga]

Can I see him anywhere online?

[MsHunter]

http://www.canadian-sport-horse.org/stallions/fineromance.jpg

[Fred]

thank you very much for the kind words. It's been a tough day around here with all the cold and snow (I'm sure many of you can relate to this) and reading this has cheered me up!
Our farm website is under construction and should be up soon.
Thanks again.

[Justbay]

Fred, I emailed you last week about your beautiful stallion. I am excited to hear so many great things about him. Hoping to have a video in my box when I get back to Virginia. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Fred]

Justbay, are you Robin?

Happy New Year everyone.
there is a racing saying that one can never be depressed when there is a good 2 year old in the barn... for me, when winter hits and feels like it will never go away, what helps me get through it is going out and looking at my pregnant broodmares. With their big giant bellies holding so much promise, it is also a promise of spring to come...and SO MUCH to look forward to. All the best to you all, fellow breeders.

[sundanz]

Fred in Canada...could I have a video too? Email me at KarinES1@aol.com for my address.

Thanks,
Karin

[MsHunter]

Dont forget about me first! keep his book open til my mares are bred!

[Justbay]

Yes! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Quinn]

Hello Jane Ervin:

Really pleased to read your endorsement this morning. I have two TB mares who have both had Rio Grande babies and one is in foal again to him. I would dearly love to breed my open mare to A Fine Romance this year and have only hesitated due to the "live cover" requirement for Thoroughbreds. The mare in question does not trailer well and the 2 1/2 hour ride might not fair well. I know the jockey club was thinking of allowing AI but I don't know if there has been any changes. Anybody know??

[NancyL]

I think he is a nice looking horse and am curious about what exactly do you like about him? His conformation, way of going, mind/brainpower, pedigree, racing record/performance record?? All of these?

I have only seen the picture from the link that is listed on one of the posts -- he looks nice -- I am just trying to expand the conversation beyond that.

I think that there are more nice TB stallions out there than people realize, but it is hard for a TB stallion owner to stand up to the warmblood registries, performance testing, and the ability to track show ring performance of offspring.

Who knows the pedigrees of the Tbs that were in the Olympics? Who knows the pedigrees of the WBs in the Olympics? Whose fault is that? Why is this info not easily available? Why don't all horse mags provide pedigree info for all the big names they write about? They could summarize it on one page in the back of the mag -- doesn't have to be in the article.

Yes, the TBs can go to the performance testing of some registries, but since many are OTT, they get a later start in show ring life, and have more to make up -- some of those young WBs are bred at 3 -- most TBs are still racing at that age (mine raced until he was 7 1/2 and started his show career at 9 -- he would have been 13 by the time his first offspring were even started under saddle and in the show ring -- if I bred him when he was 9).

Also, not all OTT TB's transfer ownership with bloodlines known, so the WBs have another advantage in tracking performance. Also, with the restriction of live cover only, the Jockey Club has severely restricted non-racing breeding -- buyers want the registration papers and you can't have Jockey Club papers with AI in TBs.

I gelded my guy (a well-bred, black-type stakes winner of almost $100,000 who also won ribbons in hunter classes at the few shows I have taken him to -- and he could have been ISR approved on his racing record alone--if I paid the huge fee) but did keep frozen semen for future use (when he retires I will find a nice mare to create my next horse!). Why did I geld him at 11? I don't have the time or money to promote and show him, and this way he gets to hang out in pasture -- something he had never done before. He still needs to learn herd dynamics -- he doesn't realize that he is supposed to be afraid of the pasture bully, he just ambles along visiting and eating with everyone.

Again, the TB mentioned is a nice looking horse, I would love to know everyone's detailed opinion of him.

Yes, I hope that the PHR starts to gain speed, and hopefully help promote some TB stallions.

Just rambling.

[LisaH]

Having helped school A Fine Romance in dressage, I would also echo others in their praise of him as a stallion. I found him fun to ride, he could be playful as a stallion sometimes is wont but absolutely unflappable. The arena roof could be collapsing in a blizzard and he would just continue on in his job. Young horses playing up didn't bother him but when a particularly fine looking mare was in the arena he certainly knew how to show off while still minding his manners.

I am be interested in following any offspring of his as performance horses.

[MsHunter]

OK, I love my TBs first off. Secondly, people that are NOT knowledgeable about breeding like to discuss pedigree in terms of GRANDSIRE and GRANDDAM. That is DILUTED breeding. A million people have say Secretariat Grandsons! What makes a TB stallion attractive to me is his OWN PERFORMANCE RECORD, Horse show record, movement, jumping ability, conformation and disposition.
I WANT ALL of the above, NOT some of the above, and I want size. I also want one that usually passes his BEST attributes on to his get. I know the judge personally who judged A FINE ROMANCE at the Royal show, and what he distinctly remembered is the 2yr old being the spitting image in every way. He also saw conformation, movement and disposition being incredible. I asked for the video, and sure enough, he is a complete package. bear in mind, I breed 100% for the hunter ring.
I could care less about eventing, dressage and the like. I want one that jumps in excellent form, has enough step to walk the lines, is good looking enough to be noticed and quiet enough to get the job done. I saw all of that in the video.
I can only think of Clouds Harbor Farm as having the other 2 TB stallions I adore. Absolut and Wedgewood. I do have a foal I love by Just The best that has the same qualities as above, and he is 1/2 WB, 1/2 TB so my resultant foal is 7/8TB. The mare I bred to JTB has the same bloodlines as A Fine Romance so he wouldn't be suitable for him,but my other mares surely would be.

[spfarm]

...about pedigrees. I'm with you on that side. I would rather look at a stallion who's had a nice performance record and has produced quality foals who that are also successful than a stallion that has the "pedigree". Too much emphasis is placed on pedigrees in the QH and Paint breeds. I've seen horses with top pedigrees and that's it. Nothing else about them to get excited about. Is that a reason alone to breed to a stallion?
/infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Fred]

I know what Jane is saying, and I appreciate it very much, but I would also like to point out that A Fine Romance ( who I bred to race) has an excellent race horse pedigree - but also a GREAT performance TB pedigree. He is inbred 4x4 to Nasrullah and 5x5 to Princequillo with Turn To, Royal Charger, My Babu etc etc. His sire, the very handsome Brave Shot(GB)( Bold Bidder - Gay Missile - Sir Gaylord) was bred to just to produce race horses - but as they have come off the track they have been successful as hunters, jumpers and event horses. His dam, Two Bitter, was a tough race mare (Pluck (Double Jay - Nasrullah /Windfields) but she was also stunningly beautiful, and a wonderful mover.
As a race horse breeder, I have also tried to be careful about conformation, ( as well as pedigreee, race performance, produce etc) and tried to breed "Beautiful Athletes". I guess in the back of my mind, I was always thinking about those horses future lives - when they came off the track. I wanted the horses I bred and sold to go on to have other lives, and if they are big, handsome, correct and athletic (with kind hearts and good minds) the chances are increased I hope they will find homes as someone's loved riding horse. I have taken a sabatical from breeding race horses and am now concentrating on Thoroughbred and Thoroughbred-based Performance Horses. But the lure of race horses is VERY STRONG.

[pwynnnorman]

The sad thing is that mare owners don't do much homework when it comes to breeding to TB stallions, in contrast to WB ones.

Jane, you mentioned consistency in the get. Well, some TB families produce very consistently, but it's hard to get people interested. My stallion's sire, Anticipating, had at one point five sons standing in the hunter cum racing market, including one in Canada who I think is still alive. Three were 16.3 or taller. The smallest, at 16.1 was a significant winner in the Regular Working division.

I'm not saying that to brag, just to illustrate. The lines are out there, but the only time anyone notices is when the information is attached to a full-page, full-color ad. The brother of my guy had half-page, b/w ads for a while, but the owner never talked about the consistency of the family. Denny Emerson has brought up the consistency of Caro's get and the My Babu line. But can see one get that looks just like Dad and assume that they all will? Yes! If Dad and this brother and that brother and Dad's dad and this son and that son are all similar. And then if Mom, too, had sons at stud (which happened in the case of the Regular Division horse I mentioned: his dam was also a decent producer). Yes, you can be sure there's something there all right.

Again, though, the problem is that people breeding especially to TB stallions don't do much research. It's hard to stand up against all the flash and bang of the other breeds and their advertisign budgets. Maybe that's the biggest problem with the TB4Sport idea. Supply and demand depresses stud fees for all but the few whose owners can afford to buy those ads and show those babies.

But as you know, that doesn't mean there aren't some damn fine TBs out there. It's just that no one KNOWS they are!

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
For more info, email: sportponies@horsecity.com
Shameless signature plugplugplug.

[Fred]

Quinn, as far as I know there is still no AI allowed with the Jockey Club. It comes up for discussion every year, and then is turned down for reasons like: "it would narrow the gene pool" I don't know where they get that from. It has worked very well for the Standardbreds. But it does make promoting a TB stallion and/or breeding TBs for performance more difficult. If you have a nice TB mare in Colorado, chances are you aren't going to ship her to KY (or Canada) to breed live cover -you then have to breed to a TB stallion who is close who you may not like as well, breed to a TB from away and have to forego JC papers, or breed to a WB. But then we have lovely full-bred TBs out there who are lost forever as TBs because they can't be registered. and if they go on and do well in the show ring TBs won't get the recognition. so that is a major problem. I don't know if it would work, but perhaps if enough people wrote the Jockey Club. Maybe we could draft a petition on this website?

[Heather]

This has been a topic of some interest to me as I have bred using AI, but producing full TBs (well, only one resultant foal, turns out mare couldn't carry to term, but had tried to breed for 3 years running, only got a baby the first time).

We decided we would live without the JC papers, in order to breed to a better quality stud. However, if there was a way, we would have prefferred to have the papers.

What about creating a "sport horse" category of stallion, who are allowed to breed AI, but whose offspring are not elligble for racing? It would seem to me that the cast/paperwork involved in that wouldn't be prohibitive. I realize some people tyr to stand their stallion as both, but then they would have to be willing to have any non-live cover offspring unregisterable. That way we could get papers, and the backing of the JC and its marvelous databases, without compromising the integrity of the racing industry.

BTW, I agree that an industry that already produces so mnay horses, many of them unwanted, as the racing industry does, should stay away from AI. Equally, the gene pool is already narrowing--just try and find one without the Nearco influence--and I do think AI would contrbute to that. But, for those of us who want to breed good wuality TBs for something other than racing, it would be nice to have some support of the parent organization.

Any thoughts?

BTW, lovely stallion.

[MsHunter]

I could give a hoot about Jockey Club papers. My TBs are all NON REGISTERED which by the way is acknowledged by AHSA. Why would I register? It is just another fee. I record themn with AHSA, I get NJBHA (New Jersey Bred HUnter) papers to prove the lineage. I don't want my TBs to go to the track, I didn't breed them for the track, and I want to prove them as sport horses not race horses. So, the AI issue, has been a NON issue for me. I do however value the IHF. I may not jump my horses 3ft at 3 yrs old, but I do nominate my get and support the program.

[Heather]

I don't breed for race horse either, BUT most of the great "sport line TB's" came from lines that were equally successful as race horses.

To simply ingore the pedigree information and lineage of TB's AS RACEHORSES, is I think, short-sided. They are athletes because of their ancestors--not in spite of them. To pooh pooh the value of the racing lineage is to ignore what factors may make them successsful.

Now, I do agree that at present having JC papers doesn't do a damn thing for me--but I HAVE relied on the database info for relatives and histories of all my TB's. It would be nice to have the associations support, and use their database capability to keep track of TB performance.

As an example of what I am vainly attempting to explian: We are curretnly looking for a new horse, and tomorrow I am going to look at 4 OTTB geldings. Thanks to the JC, I was able to download their pedigrees, race record and complete history (including, most importantly, what claiming price they were running at to determine what sort of offer I could make versus what they are advertised for), what kind of races they have run in and had success, and if there were any "suspicious gaps" in their history that might indicate an injury, etc. An example of what this has done for me was allowed me to reject an earlier candidate who had a mostly short distance pedigree, and had finished dead-last in every race over 6 furlongs--not the sort who would make much of an event horse, most likely. Now I will go in person and judge the remaining individuals on things like conformation, temperment, movement, etc.

Imagine if we could get this sort of information for sport horses? What a marvel that would be!

[MsHunter]

You can track lineage, and pedigree by knowing the sire and dam, who are JC registered. There has to be a point where we as TB breeders are promoting what we produce based on our records in the show arena. Fred stallion has good race blood, but what good is that if you want a hunter?
Woul'ndt you rather see him perform? Now, shouldn't his stallion stand on his record as a competitor himself and also his offspring? And, shouldn't we track THAT lineage? We know Spectacular Bid is a good hunter line (who is by Bold Bidder) Freds stallion goes back Bold Bidder. One of my mares broodmares sireis Bold Bidder which I knew when I got her. Don't you think horses with good bone, a good attitude, a good disposition and Excellent conformation are going to excel in both the racing and hunter area?
I think so. How well they jump is what we hope to learn about more. I know the Absoluts for the most part pass that on! We need to have a place to chart this info. PHR is the place to do it so I am told. Why buy a horse off the track instead of a homebred? I'd buy the homebred if I was making a purchase/investment. You can't replace the wear and tear a horse off the track has endured. It cost as much to feed and care for a cheap one as an expensive one. I do buy them off the track and resell them, but, I love my homebreds that were bred with a goal in mind and alot of love and thought behind them, not to mention hard work.

[Heather]

. . . that we actually intend the same thing Jane, we're just coming at it from different angles.

I'm not at all disagreeing with the need to have good sport TB's, with sport performance records. My question though is two fold--why can't the JC help be a part of this, (the PHR/Sporthorse Database as part of the AHSA is NOT going to be this for us--not that it will be uselss, just without the TB focus), and why does the racing necessarily wipe out the sport facet? In other words, your very good example of the Bold Bidder line--yes, those horse can jump. They also can run--its NOT mutually exclusive, so why assume that knowing what racing people know is useless? That's all I'm saying.

As far as the homebred versus OTT--at this point its, from my perspective, a matter of economics, market, and history. I event, and know that eventers, in general, will not pay a ton of money for an unproven baby--certainly not enough to make breeding for the event market profitable. It sounds like, from your other posts, that you have better luck with the hunter folks. From the eventers perspective, why pay $10,000 for a weanling or yearling, when you can buy a 4 year old for $3000 that you can already know something about in terms of fitness, speed, soundness, etc. If its run 30 times, and has clean legs and passes the vet, you know its as tough and sound as can be. Do I wish there was a better set of options for homebreds--for the buyer and seller/breeder. Yes, but at the moment, this is how the market lies. BTW, please don't take this as a statement that I agree with the pounding those TB at 2 and 3. It's not, but if you are going to operate within the present system, its a decent bellweather for finding horses.

This of course brings up the whole can of worms about what standards might tie a coalition of TB sport breeders together--the needs of the eventing community, for instance, are fairly different than what sells in the hunters. We need tough, sound, smart, fast. You need pretty, quiet, big, etc. (Yes, I realize these are gross gnerealizations, I'm just trying to make a broad point).

Anyway, this is sort of rambling, but I actually think our ideas or goals are the same Jane--I'm just not ready to write the racing folks out of the equation yet. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[MsHunter]

I do agree with you, I think one of my earlier posts is confusing. Good blood, racing or otherwise, isn't by linking a grandsire and granddam. Most often you follow the broodmare sire, and the sire and the horses own merits to look at your pedigree. Many novice breeders both for the track and for the show ring like to discuss much farther back. After awhile they are all related to one another. Most disturbing is people who say they have a 1/2 brother or sister
to a horse, not realizing it is ALMOST impossible, that to be a REAL 1/2 it has to be out of the same dam not by the same stallion.
1/2 brothers and sisters have the same dam but can have a different sire. Once again, we come back to the mare don't we? Unfortunately for me, I wasn't able to buy fancy been there done that mares from horse shows. So, I did the next best thing I could do. I went after sound,big, pretty, good moving mares with strong race pedigree in the hopes that this would also be the same type that would excel in the show ring.
My one mare is a stakes/allowance winner herself she is proven both as a mare, and a producer of winners. I bred her to a WB/TB cross, and I LOVE the resultant offspring! Another mare I have has Northern Fling as a broodmare sire (Steeplechase, which equates to 4ft hunter in my book <G>!).
The 3rd mare I have, well, she is just big beautiful and quiet and good moving, and I rescued her by buying her at AC race track from a drunk. Nothing in the world phases her. Her pedigree is the weakest of my lot, you get somewhere in her 2nd generation, which is diluted.
Her first foal by Absolut sold in 3 weeks. Just as smart, as good moving, and appeared to be as quiet. I truly hope the PHR is tracking pedigree and gets in into free database format that we can all utilize to add information to. The last I heard the AHSA took this over. I haven't subscribed to it yet, due to cost, but, I will if they are going to do the right thing with it!

[Fred]

Jane, your broodmares sound lovely - I want them! And I think you did exactly the right thing to get them. It's sometimes hard to get the fancy successful show mares because they keep showing them ! The TB auction sales have nice mares whose pedigrees might not be that fashionable, or not much blacktype close up, or haven't produced much to race ( she might be a little older). But the mare herself can be a good type, she may have raced some. personally I always am a sucker for tough race mares who chalked up their earnings the hard way, running in cheaper races - honest, tough mares. (I want them all) You should come up to the Woodbine Mixed Sale (late Sept/early Oct) bring those Yankee dollahs. we could go together! (my poor husband just got a chill up and down his spine).
It makes me cringe too when people refer to a horse's half brother when it is by the same sire - you see it quite often in stallion ads. But usually I just let it go....

[pwynnnorman]

Jane, you might not have that view (about registering with the Jockey Club) if you were a stallion owner instead of a mare owner. Right now, until PHR gets off the ground more, there is simply no other way to have a permanent record of at least SOME of a stallion's get (and I thank goodness for the half-bred registries, too: Apdx AQHA, Anglo-Arab, Paint, ApHC, etc., for the way they, too, record the get of TB stallions). I hate the expense, but the problem with just using the show-based organizations to "register" is that they can't verify the authenticity of the claim.

Let me give you an example, OK? I'm trying to specialize in the 3/4 TB pony (for dressage, jumpers and eventing, far more than for hunters). I have a nice colt who I'm using for a little inbreeding while I search for a stallion to replace my old guy. I don't really intend to stand him at stud, but given his relatives on the circuit, it might make sense to, someday. Being 3/4bred and a medium is relatively unique, right? Well, not really. There IS one supposedly 3/4 TB pony stallion standing at stud right now--except when you ask for his pedigree, it turns out he has "unknown" where he should have TB. So IS he TB? Or it that just a guess?

I do not want to breed my stallion's daughters to guesses. I want to breed to something I can research for quality and CONSISTENCY (which is why I'm also experimenting with inbreeding, like the way Hackney ponies were developed). I've spent way, way too much time selecting and culling and waiting and proving and culling and culling...etc., to risk lowering the quality and consistency my efforts have (I think) resulted in. Imagine if I decided to buy a mare to breed a replace instead? There's no way I would buy a TB mare without papers no matter how nice she looked, moved or jumped. We all know that those things aren't guarenteed to pass on to her get--and I'm not going to risk my entire program on someone else's say-so either...nor would I expect that mare's son's future mare owners to do so.

It would be utterly foolish to breed a consistent line to an unknown line. For all I know, that other pony has AQHA in it--and what will happen to the long stride I've worked so hard to develop if those genes just happen to skip a few generations and crop up later on? And what about the bottom lines of those offspring being produced by the big-name stallions? Who ARE those mares? Superficially nice, perhaps, but as a breeder of performance animals who have to be genuinely talented to have value, I can't just be happy if the mare passes along her superficial traits. That's how the WB performance testing has an advantage over our programs. They don't accept just what is on the surface. They test for talent. How do you test an unregistered, unraced TB broodmare for talent if she isn't sound or isn't schooled to a high level in a challenging sport?

THAT is why, from the perspective of developing and promoting a breed, a type or just a "bloodline," getting mare owners to register the get in credible breeding (rather than merely showing) registries is crucial if we really want to make progress in our ability to produce AND market top quality through means other than word-of-mouth, old-time reputation, good location and big advertising budgets (which are they ways big prices are currently obtained from virtually all non-WB breeders). None of those things are BAD, but they just do not have a cumulative effect on the actual breed, type or bloodline itself, i.e. none of those things CREATES consistency--it promotes it, but it doesn't really create it. And isn't that what is needed to compete against the imports: genuinely (rather than "artificially"--through the means I just listed) credible and consistent breeding programs?

Wow, what a load. Sorry.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
Shameless signature plugplugplug.

[Fred]

interesting ideas and thoughts. My interaction with the Jockey Club through the years has always been great - my quibble is NOT with them. I think they could establish whatever rules they wanted ie no more than 50 foals registered in a given year produced by AI. I think the JOckey Club should take a hard look at how the Standardbred Industry has handled AI and flourished. I am personally glad that there are so many breeders who are not worried about JC papers, I just don't feel that we TB breeders should be denied them. Whether we decide to race or not, the breed is the breed.

[Heather]

You guys have said what i feel--specially Fred--I think he summed it up. Did the lack of papers prevent me from breeding to stallions of my choosing? No, definately not. If given an option, would I want the papers--yes, becasue my horse is a TB, and I should be able to have bonifed, "non-show registry papers" that say so.

Thanks guys, great discussion!

[NancyL]

In looking for event horse prospects, you may want to review the work of Peter Birdsall (sp?) who has done a lot of research on sporthorse bloodlines in North America.

He said:

"In event horses, major racing successes as determined by stakes wins and SSI values in the males of the first and second
generation is important. The presence of champions and speed horses who have equalled or set track records, mainly at
sprinting distances, are important ingredients in the pedigree.
/infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Notice that he said "sprinting distances" -- I think this is generally considered anything less than 1 mile (8 furlongs).

The link to a website listing his breeding ideas for eventers is:

http://www3.sympatico.ca/pete.birdsall/eventer.htm

[Heather]

I'm a huge fan of Dr. Birdsall's work, and have the book in question. Done a lot of reasearch using his stuff--he really is a true wonder--a real font of knowledge.

Anybody else who's a "pedigree junkie" should look at his tuff--really amazing!

[Fred]

is a very near neighbour of mine. I always enjoy reading his articles and books. (love pedigrees)

[Freehold]

I have a 1999 filly by A Fine Romance. She's really big , she'll finish 17hh+, and is a real beauty. Already she's showing a knack for jumping - having jumped out of her paddock twice so far! F.E. Riverdance Romance is a true black. I am hoping that she will show hunter/jumper when she is old enough. I will try to add a picture of her here, but if it doesn't work you can see her at my website:
http://home.beseen.com/homebiz/freeholdequine/index.html
/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by Freehold on Jan. 13, 2001 at 09:12 PM.]

[Dry Clean Only]

nice filly freehold - D&^$N is she huge! that is gonna be one big, pretty girl!

[Trindle99]

I have a TB stallion who is standing his first year. I know what you mean about the advertising, but it gets to be so much, between all the different regional and national mags it's mega bucks to advertise!!! Also getting stallion kits ect. The best thing is promotion at the shows which I intend to do, so people can see the babies in person! I just wanted to tell you how I admire the fact thet you are breeding TB's and promoting them it is very hard to 'keep up' with all of the new warmbloods seems everyone wants something imported!! I'll see you at those fun 'stand up' shows soon... that is if it ever stops snowing!

[MsHunter]

Do we know one another? Who do you have?
Ray will be showing three for me this spring.
I wont start up until 3rd week in April, I have to do one more show as a learner for my license.
I may also have a pony showing on the line,that is if I can find one I like enough to buy.

[Generic]

I've just recently started to read the forum and your discussion on TB Sport Horse Breeding is great. You've made me wish that I had gone another route with the TB mare I purchased from the track. She was shown hunter with Classic scores in the 90's and then I had her approved for breeding WB where she went first premium but lets face it, she's still a TB! I just started into horses about 6 years ago and bred my first foal last year off a KWPN with incredible jumping lines. I think the foal is great and am breeding this spring to a Swedish warmblood. Now I'm wondering if I should have gone Sport Horse (there weren't any inspections in this area that I know of) or bred to a good looking 17 hand athletic TB stallion that has just come into the area. I'm not sure what the market is like out there but at the time I figured the WB crosses would be easier to sell. You guys make me think that perhaps I was wrong. Anyway, thanks for the interesting reading and points to ponder!!!!

Dee Cantwell

[MsHunter]

A good moving, fancy, good jumping, QUIET, TB, will most always beat a WB in the hunter ring.
But,alot of the WBs jump good,move bad,butare quieter.The first thing in the ring that matters is that you find 8 jumps and do the changes,be quiet, and MOVE and JUMP good are the 1-6 prizes!
I don't think you made a mistake, I think WB crosses are easier to sell. I breed both, but I LOVE myTBS!

[Generic]

Good point! Why not breed both? I have a lot of faith that my TB/WB foal is going to do very well in the hunter ring when he's old enough but down the road, perhaps I'll breed to a Tb as well. Do you find that the straight Tb foals aren't saleable until they're already in the show ring?

Dee Cantwell

[pwynnnorman]

someone pointed something out to me the other day: you don't SEE unraced, homebred TBs that are comparable (in size, substance, etc.) to WBs for sale that often! That's not to say they don't exist, but most of the four and unders you see are under 16 hands, raced or race-bred, etc.

Her comment sent me to COTH to see for myself and, sure enough, I went back randomly and looked at issues from the past year and she was right! Compared to 2 or 3 year old WBs, there were very few TBs (not one single yearling at all--several yearling WBs). Granted, that may also mean that a.) comparatively few people are breeding TBs for the show ring, b.) we don't even try, given the state of the market, to sell anything until it has been in the ring, or c.) what horses of that age are advertised aren't presented as TBs (I did see the occasional youngster by better known TB stallions, but such ads didn't actually state that the horse was a TB).

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
Shameless signature plugplugplug.

[Quinn]

Jane Ervin:

I wanted to thank you for your post on the above named. I have bred my TB mares in the past Hanoverian but I was quite interested in what you had to say about "Fred." After some research, I have found only exceptionally positive things said on him and as he is only down the road, so to speak, will happily forego the TB registration in order to get a nice baby.

Thanks very much for your excellent advice. I am looking forward to the results.

[MsHunter]

Thanks Quinn!, I am SO EXCITED about breeding 1 to him this spring also! I have been light on the boards lately, got home from Jax, and now I currently am in WPB doing the learner judge thing.
Will be back home in 10 days! Quinn did you get to see him in person?

[Quinn]

No, I haven't seen him in person but have spoken to a number of people who have and after conversing (through e-mails) with his owner, feel very confident with the match.

Thanks again for the heads up. Just as a side note here, the 9 year old TB/Hanoverian you recommended I have the hocks injected on (drifting over his fences, unwilling to pick up correct lead etc.) is completely sound. I will again this year go ahead with the hyaluronic acid and adequan. He is on a daily glucosamine/chondroitin product which keeps him quite happy. Thanks again.

[Fred]

At the Canadian Sport Horse AGM & Awards Night, A Fine Romance was once again Champion Foundation Stallion and Grand Champion Stallion Overall. he accepts with gratitude <G>

[Fred]

due to the very gratifying response from American mare owners to the COTH ad, and their requests that he be IHF nominated, A Fine Romance is now nominated to the International Hunter Futurity!

[City Filly]

I just bought a filly from Gail Parker-Rogers, the owner and breeder of A Fine Romance. She looks just like her daddy. I'm very excited. He's a slow maturing thoroughbred, so he's grown since the video. He looks almost like a warmblood. Plus, you would not believe how wonderful his personality is. My girl inherited that too. She's smart, bold, but not too pushy, and really personable. She's also a fabulous, straight mover, just like her dad! I'm glad other people are noticing this great stallion. He's only nine, and I'm sure that when his babies are a bit older he'll really be attracting attention!

[halfhalt]

Forgive me if this is an uninformed question! but has A Fine Romance covered many warmblood mares? I gather he is approved for the CWB registry, and the offspring could be quite incredible...

[Fred]

but not as many as he would like! I don't think there has been a very large warmblood mare base in Canada, but that is starting to change rapidly. Thank you very much for the kind comments though, offcourse.
The dam of "cityfilly's" filly is a lovely liver chestnut imported Hannoverian by Freiherr (by Furioso II) out of a Black Skyxx (sire of Bolero) mare. He has bred to some Trakehners, Holsteiners, Hannoverians,but mostly TB and TB crosses, Canadian Sport Horses.

[City Filly]

I just wanted to add this, although I know everyone here is a breeder... My filly has a full sister from 2000. She is a bit more of a cross between her sire and dam, while my girl is just like her dad. Her sister has her mum's colour and I think she'll have her more uphill topline. She also moves like a dream. It took me awhile to decide between the two. You really can't argue with the pedigree, that's for sure! Genes are amazing though, even though both fillies are very nice, and they're full sisters, they're really quite different. Here's a question to you breeders, which I may post elsewhere too...

Is it really true that the dam contributes 60% or more of the genes? I think this seems true in some cases, and not at all in others. Isn't it just a matter of luck? Of course, the odds of getting a good horse are way higher when sire and dam are both quality. All the genes will be in there somewhere, but there are lots of babies that seem to have inherited more from dad. Is this partly because stallions that are prepotent are also more popular because of that?

[Quinn]

City Filly, please allow me to post my *opinion* on this one.

Case #1 - bred my reg. TB mare to a beautiful, quiet Holsteiner who regularly showed hunters without any fuss at all. I bred the mare because she was a "Farnsworth" who were known to be a little nutty. I knew very little about breeding at the time (15 years ago)and ended up with a carbon copy of her. The same temperament, the same conformation.

Case #2 - bred my QH/TB mare to a Han/TB and ended up with all father's characteristics right down to stall marching (trust me, it's way more than stall walking.) The mare is the kindest, sweetest trier you have ever met and her baby (rising 10) is a holy terror. He has none of his mum in him. All he got from her was a terrific jumping ability.

Case #3 - bred my TB mare in 1998 to Rio Grande and got him through and through.

Case #4 - bred my other TB mare in 1998 to Rio Grande as well and got all mare.

This year, I have booked "A Fine Romance" and am thrilled at the prospect!!!! Hopefully, the first of many.

[Windrush]

This is my first post to the AFR �forum� but it�s interesting to read the tracks of previous contributors. My first attempt blew up so I have composed off line to give it a try - so it got longish but hopefully will post.

Last summer we found our country home after an 18 month search and are in process of building a breeding farm and developing our foundation stock. Five years ago I saw a video and never forgot the stallion I conceived as the perfect match for my TB performance mare. This was purely romantic in that he hadn�t done much except blow everyone away on the line and I never expected to have the facilities to breed my mare.

He was indeed a stunning young horse, but I followed AFR over the years from his performance, to his published accomplishments on the line. I figure these are documented elsewhere but they go something like 4 years Grand Champion Thoroughbred at the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair and perhaps 3 years whupping the warmbloods as Champion Canadian Sporthorse Stallion. I see he took away the Ontario Jockey Club Challenge Trophy this year too. Bravo Thoroughbreds !

A while back I heard that AFR changed disciplines (to show hunter) so he would not be exposed to the risks associated with Advanced Eventing. I have no quibble with this other than the fact we could have used him at the Pan Ams/Olympics !!!!

My husband and I empathize with his breeder/owner. We are happy to have our horses compete up to Prelim and we love the sport with its foundations in the best of horsemanship from how to feed horses so they won�t tie up, can gallop but not blow up in the dressage ring or be ballistic crosscountry, to how to condition them for endurance, how to perfect show jumping form and keep the rails where they should be.

While our first love is eventing, we want foremost to breed athletes - not just eventers. Just did the hunter thing [again] and placed over fences and under saddle with my daughter�s sharp gelding who is an eventer�s dream in every way but just as happy to do hunter. They will event and show jump this summer. The TB mare we plan to breed is a lovely [huge] hunter type with the sweeping movement appreciated by the top Hunter trainer who broke her, and the quiet unflappable rhythm and fastidious jump of the show hunter, does Amateur Owner Jumper like it is a cake walk, and three times we have declined offers to take her on to high level eventing, including a USET member proposal to purchase.

Very exciting - but it boils down to the same decision as Fred ultimately made - these horses are not machines with owners and jockeys. None of our horses, including AFR, crosses disciplines [or gets bred] because of failure or unsoundness.

High level eventing is a better job for a horse who is owned by folks who view their horse as a machine, much like most racehorses - a TB machine who happens to be a brilliant brilliant all- rounder - but is replaceable even at $300,000.

[There are many exceptions e.g. Bermuda Gold - RIP. She was a feisty 15-3, beloved by her owner/rider, as you saw after her round at the 1999 Pan Am stadium jumping, when M.J./B.G. beat David O�Connor/Giltedge for the individual gold. The Olympics were devastating for M.J.] But we are not prepared to go there.

Doesn�t change the fact that AFR is cut from the same cloth - and that is not just my opinion since he had every chance to sign up to be an Olympic Eventer and could tomorrow look towards 2004. He is the all rounder, par excellence.

Nancy L wants to know about his conformation, way of going. Oddly I moved right round the corner from his Hunter/Jumper stable and got by before Christmas. Had never seen him in the flesh.

Every horse I hear of is �a lovely mover� so you hardly give it any credence. I am not particularly interested in �Hunter� movement - primarily the Hunter jump. But for the record, AFR�s way of going is clearly exceptional from the Hunter point of view re: under saddle - he has that movement from behind and the essential hunter sweep from that shoulder - but one would expect this from his achievements on the line . I do not have the video to tell you whether he could train up to Prix St. Georges level in dressage but I am pretty sure this is not an issue. From time to time his trainer would alter his aids and suddenly there would be the suspension that competes with the Hanoverians in the line classes - and the extensions. I will figure out how he does it and report back. Perhaps it is the TB all-rounder thing and the essential �Three Good Gaits� we want in every horse.

I don�t recall reading that AFR is approved as a Trakehner stallion but that he is and I am presuming the inspectors are more picky than I about conformation and movement.

Mind /brainpower. AFR is a gentle guy. No gelding is more polite and he actually pretended he was honoured to meet us. It would take me a lot of typing to explain why I think he is exceptionally smart and there are plenty of other folk who know him better than I.

His current trainer is not long on words, but at frigid temperatures both he and his wife could not say enough about his temperament and intelligence. I have been saying to my friends that he was so focused and composed in his work that a tractor could have driven into the side of the barn and he would have been fine. I see someone else who knows the stallion made a post suggesting that the roof could fall in on the arena !!

This is important to me as I want my foal to be as level-headed and unflappable as his/her mother who I trust to take my children cross country. He clearly can attend to a nuisance dog, the pony squealing in the paddock, change his lead, and deal perfectly with a triple combination - and chew gum I suspect.

Pedigree ? He was not raced but his sire Braveshot is the #8 Lifetime Canadian sire by $ earned.

Progeny - I only made the decision to breed last November and have not gone out of my way to locate AFR�s babies. I have now seen three and heard about Monty Roberts� impression of one. I think only one is for sale - and only maybe - she is like her dad, unforgettable - although a flashy chestnut with lots of chrome.

Performance ? AFR is now a �Hunter�. He appears poised to move up from the Canadian Sporthorse Association, �Bronze Premium Stallion� category in this discipline. I want that shoulder in my mare�s foal because I want that extraordinary jump with the knees up by the ears and the glorious bascule.

As I see it, aside from racing, both flat and steeplechase, there are three jobs TB�s do like no other. One is being a Hunter. The other is being a triathlete - an Eventer. And lastly the important job of being the foundation of so many WB registries - like the Holsteiner [Cottage Son, Ladykiller, Rantzau] and providing an ongoing infusion of blood and talent to these same dressage and jumper horse families.

I believe when we are breeding TB�s to to TB�s to produce sporthorses, we are aiming to breed exceptional movers and jumpers for people who love Hunters and/or Eventers - and even the occasional FEI dressage horse and Grand Prix jumper. We are all looking for the same attributes in our "tb" foals, whatever job they wind up doing .....and we want a good bit of TB in our WB�s.

[Quinn]

I have again looked through all of my stallion publications to make sure I made the right choice this year. Somewhat like once you have decided on a car, you question your "taste."

My only complaint with "A Fine Romance" is that I didn't seriously consider him before I bred both TB mares to a popular warmblood in 1998 and 2000. The reason I didn't breed back full TB was because I can't register the foals jockey club without live cover. Thankfully, Jane Ervin smacked me upside the head on that one.

To summarize, AFR or Fred is EXCEPTI0NAL. And he's Canadian!!!!! I am just so pleased I made this choice.

[Generic]

You might want to look at www.warmbloods.net (http://www.warmbloods.net) as there are some questions regarding A Fine Romance and his offspring in the hunter/jumper forum section that you might wish to answer.

[MsHunter]

Fred,
I have to tell you something you will enjoy!

your "A Fine Romance" has some of the same blood as the legendary Gem Twist show jumping stallion.

This is the bloodline similar in the pedigree:

Double Jay: Broomshot: Whisk Broom

[Fred]

thanks, Generic, for the 'heads up' about the other BB, I appreciate it.
and thank you
Jane, for the pedigree info. I love Gem Twist, (who doesn't). What a beautiful horse. I had a huge 20+page Sport Horse pedigree analysis done on AFR which I have misplaced during our move. Double Jay is an important TB Sport Horse sire, ancestor to many jumpers including Idle Dice and For the Moment among others. there is a picture of him on the DelMar site.
thanks again.

[MsHunter]

did you fix your mailbox yet fred?

[Stephi]

I looked up his breeding on this site DelMar Pedigree Query (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/), and he is very nicely bred for racing as well as sport horse breeding. I have a grand-daughter of Secretariat, didn't know it when I bought her, who is a very talented dressage horse and jumper. On our web site, she is Queen. I am planning to breed her and ran a hypothetical mating for her and A Fine Romance and it came out looking very good. I do look back at the families, since I like line breeding, but don't expect the grandsires/dams or great-grandsires/dams to do more than influence slightly. A horse like Secretariat who is a great broodmare sire, still in the top twenty even now, can be considered a major influence if you have a mare by him or a grand-daughter of his. I breed for racing, but also for general athletic ability and soundness, since the foals will go into other disciplines, jumper, dressage,etc. if they don't turn out to be good runners. So I buy mares that are race bred in families I like, and hope for the best. A Fine Romance looks like he would cross with most lines very well, not only for racing, but for other disciplines. Stephi

[Dunhorse]

What is A Fine Romance's stud fee?

And does he do AI to non-TB breeds?

Thanks! He is gorgeous. Looks just like my friends mare (who I LOVE and want to steal! /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

Tracy.
Tia & Cruz

[Generic]

For those "Fred" breeders, there's an ad on the warmblood net under hunter/jumper forum of someone looking for a son of A Fine Romance. If you haven't seen it, there's a sale waiting.

[MsHunter]

can you send the link out here? I like other webpages but can never find them

[City Filly]

visit http://www.warmbloods.net and go to the hunter jumper section.

[Fred]

A Fine Romance's first foal of 2001 was just born! A big bay colt with a small star and one white fetlock.(3/4 TB 1/4 Holsteiner) This colt's full brother won the CSHA Weanling Futurity, CSHA weanling colt at Royal Winter Fair and end of year CSHA Weanling Champion. The mare owner competes in eventing and is breeding for eventing. First one of the year! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm still waiting for my first mare to foal...

[LaurieB]

P.S. we love pictures. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fred]

chestnut colt this time! This one, also owned by a client, is 3/4 TB 1/4 Hannoverian. don't worry - I won't post every time a foal is born! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif , It's just so dull, cold and snowy here - and these foals arriving safe and sound mean spring is here, isn't it?? (plus of course, I'm so proud! - as if that weren't obvious)
Thanks LaurieB for the congrats!: I wish I had a scanner! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Quinn]

So happy to hear of another safe arrival. I just have one thing to say........PLEASE GET YOUR PICTURES SCANNED. Don't you have a neighbour or something with one who you could bake cookies for?

Really want to see these babies.

[Fred]

"the sad thing is that mare owners don't do much homework when it comes to breeding to TB stallions, in contrast to WB ones"

I disagreed with this way back when it was posted, and am finally speaking up!
First of all, I want to make it clear that this is NOT a wb vs TB thing for me, and I am in no way criticizing mare owners who breed to warmbloods or warmbloods period.
That being said, let me say "ON THE CONTRARY"!
First of all, it takes courage, and strength of conviction to go against a trend, and certainly warmbloods are a continuing strong trend. In my experience, the mare owners who call me are very well-informed. They have without exception "done their homework". If they are experienced breeders, they know the kind of horse they are trying to produce, the market they are breeding for, and the type of offspring their mare(s) tend to have. They understand pedigrees, conformation, movement, jumping technique, importance of temperament. The same with new breeders. They may be inexperienced when it comes to breeding, but again, they are clear about why they want to breed to a Thoroughbred stallion. They are usually very realistic about their breeding goals and are breeding for a certain type, and usually for a specific discipline. They want size, refinement, athleticism, movement, jumping ability, without sacrificing either substance or quality. All of them appreciate Thoroughbreds and their importance in every Sport Horse breeding program. Many of the mare owners will have been following the stallion for a number of years - they've seen him in the show ring, they've seen some of his babies, they've talked to other breeders.
I've been spending a lot of time on the phone and on the internet lately, talking to mare owners, and they DO do their homework, they ask intelligent questions and make informed decisions!
climbing off soapbox now. /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[City Filly]

Fred, I have to agree. I think that because warmbloods are so popular, it's easier for people to go with a warmblood without doing much homework. my sister bred her mare to a lovely dutch named oxford. she didn't do much homework, and i think the match is excellent, but it was largely luck. many people will go for an okay warmblood without even considering an excellent thoroughbred, because of current trends. usually the trend buckers are the ones who have done a lot of research and put lots of thought into what they want and how to get it.

[Fred]

A Fine Romance is booked full for this year, and we are already getting bookings for 2002!
I am so pleased with the extremely high quality of mares being bred to him and very grateful for the enthusiasm with which he has been received! It promises to be a very exciting breeding season - and an even more exciting foaling season in 2002! A huge THANK YOU to all the wonderful mare owners for your confidence and enthusiasm. Let's hope you all have a little "Romance" in your life! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Fred]

just got back from Bolton, our first big outdoor show - and AFR got a 3rd and First the first day, 2nd and First the second day - was CHAMPION First Year Green! - also got Reserve Champion in the High/Lows ( he does the highs as a warm up for his division), He jumped beautifully, consistent, got all his distances without trying. and behaved perfectly! he was a star! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Plus, he hadn't been ridden for a week (he had to stay home to attend to breeding while his rider went to the show) - he was bred Mon, Tues, trailered to the show after breeding on Tues, had a school on Weds, then showed Thurs and Friday. and doesn't turn a hair in the ring.
these crazy Thoroughbreds!

[This message was edited by Fred on May. 19, 2001 at 07:54 PM.]

[Justbay]

Did you get any pictures? Would love to see!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Kathi]

This stallion is so wonderful. I have waited for a baby for about 1 year and a bit. I wanted dark bay or black boy very little white. And I got my dream this May. I am now the proud owner of a baby boy that looks just like his dad. I have watched this stallion for a long time and knew that the wait was worth it. Thanks To Gail the stallion owner I have my dream. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Silly Mommy]

Friday, Mr. Hotty-pants Vet comes to ultrasound my mare AI'd with AFR's swim team!!!

Praying to fertility gods!!!

Don't get stuck in the sludge if you're that confident in your ride!

[nadine]

Do you have a website so I could see more of this spectacular looking stallion? I loved his picture on the Canadian SportHorse website. Also, where in Ontario are you located? How far from the US border????

[Robby Johnson]

I believe she's about 2 hours from the border at Buffalo (my mare is at her place, pregnant by AFR!). How far are you from Buffalo? (Her farm is in Brandon, Ontario, which looks to be about 45 minuts west of Toronto.)

Robby

[barncleaner]

Congrats Kathi on your baby boy-he sounds great-we'd love to see pictures!

FRED-Can I get a video for next year? Please email me.

Thank you!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

What would we do without our horses?!!

[DH]

Glad to hear your mare is having fun here in Ontario Robby, but for all those frantically looking up "Brandon" Ontario, I don't think you'll find it.

Fred's place is just outside of Brantford, Ontario. I know that I'm not the most gifted thing with an atlas, so I thought I geographically help out those of you trying to locate the famous Fred /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[dublin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fred:
Double Jay is an important TB Sport Horse sire, ancestor to many jumpers including Idle Dice and For the Moment among others.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Viscount is another successful sport horse sire with a Double Jay connection... /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.wariotofarminc.com/viscount.html

[Robby Johnson]

I knew that's what it was! What a blond moment!

Robby

[Fred]

my website is under construction. The lady who is doing it for me is just waiting for me to get off my butt to get some text and more pictures to her. HOWEVER I can't get the domain name A Fine Romance.com - a think a lingerie or marital aids store has it /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif
but I could get A Fine Romance.ca (Canadian designation) or Tamarack Lane farm.com
ok I know it is a small decision, but, I too am having, as Robby said, a blonde moment.

AFR is having a great show season in the 3.6" divison - winning Championships and many firsts, and at last I have some great pictures of him jumping and as soon as I can I will post some to the BB.

Willow is just beautiful, and a FABULOUS mover! she has settled in really well and rarely leaves off grazing, except to go to the round bale, or lick out (once again!) the feed tubs. Pregnancy really agrees with her.
re: Brantford. claim to fame: home of Alexander Graham Bell. more recent claim to fame: home of Wayne Gretszky -

Silly Mommy, my fingers are crossed for you. go team!
Barncleaner - I'd be happy to get a video to you. thank you for asking!
Nadine -about 2 hrs from Buffalo and also from Detroit, - and thank you also for the kind words.

[Robby Johnson]

How's this for form?

[Fred]

A Fine Romance has qualified for the Royal Winter Fair in the Working Hunters. He will show Nov 7, 8 & 9th. yahoo! all BB members are hereby invited to come watch (and stay at Heidi's!!) /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
ok Heidi?

[Quinn]

Fred, we will be there on the 9th!!!!

By the way, did a friend of mine by the name of "Barb" contact you regarding breeding to her DWB??? Apparently, quite a lovely mare. Of course, that's not to imply she is in the same league as my "Lily" but nice just the same. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fred]

for your support and friendship.

[L Scott]

Clay(me), Canter, and Kody will be there to see him go!

[Brigitte]

Congratulations Fred! We will be expecting some great pictures!

[Anne]

Queenbee, leave the moderating to the moderators. If you want this thread to die, why did you revive it?

[Quinn]

And, please please please spell definitely correctly. Now that drives me nuts!

/infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Quinn]

While doing my best not to be snide, there are a good number of people on here who (a) are big fans of AFR, (b) are also supporters of Fred and (c) are interested in getting together at the Royal Winter Fair.

I don't see that this has anything to do with advertising. As a matter of interest, he doesn't need any!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[L Scott]

Any mention of any horse, especially stallions, can be seen as advertising. There are many, many threads about breeding stallion on this forum, shall we ban them all.

[Miniwelsh]

I frequent this board to become more informed on the horse show scene, on how to better care for my animals, for recommendations on blankets, feed, veteranarians, dog breeds and yes, stallions. As L Scott said, there are multiple threads about stallions on the board. To me, it speaks volumes that so many posters have bred to and love A Fine Romance. Should I ever have a mare to breed, having this type of information and knowledge at my fingertips would make my decision that much easier. I trust the instincts of successful breeders like Jane Ervin and count my lucky starts that I am able to gain access to the knowledge of her and others on this board.

If we can't come here to get answers, advice and knowledge, should we all just sit around all day discussin the weather and latest show results??

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Brigitte]

I could not have said it better myself. I have learned so much from all the contributors on this board. And yes, some of them are going to be stallion owners. Since I won't be able to go to the Royal Winter Fair, I hope to be able to read on this forum how A Fine Romance does there. Or for that matter any other raves about other horses.

The Sport Horse Breeding forum by its very nature is going to have more breeders, etc. on it. That is why it is so informative to any of us interested in breeding, pedigrees, etc.

[Fred]

I BRED HIM, I FOALED HIM, I TAUGHT HIM TO LEAD - I'M PROUD OF THIS HORSE AND HIS ACCOMPLISHMENTS. If he were a gelding, I'd be just as proud. Many people post about their horses' exploits... I'm happy to hear about their accompishments and share in their sadness when they have misfortune.

I have been touched by the kindness and support of so many wonderful people on this BB.
I suppose there are always other people out there who, whether out of mean spiritedness,jealousy, a hidden agenda, or just an ungenerous nature, try to spoil it for other people or dim their happiness and take the shine off things. Luckily they are in the minority.
Breeding horses is hard, endless work and can sometimes be painful and heartbreaking. My philosphy is to try to take pleasure,joy and pride in what is good and pure and beautiful. I'm more proud of that horse than anything else in my life, and grateful for the honour of having him in my life.
If you (Queenbee or Thumbsup)want to call that advertising, I think it says more about you than it does about me.

[Miniwelsh]

I still have to disagree. Number one, I wouldn't know AFR's owner if she rode over me. I didn't know about AFR until this forum. For that matter, I had never heard of Jupiter. For that matter I had never heard of Rotherwood Crown Prince. Jupiter's owner, as far as I know, does not post here. Rotherwood Crown Prince's owner does not post here. Yet, I have heard about their stallions FROM OTHER POSTERS. I heard about A Fine Romance FROM OTHER POSTERS. Why on God's green earth would other posters be "advertising" these stallions?? This board is a place to converse and share. I have never found "Fred" to be inappropriate in anything she has posted. Am I a groupie? No, as I said I have never met her or seen her horse in person. But I do feel that if I see a post such as yours, that in my opinion was petty and mean spirited and totally out of place, I need to step in and set the record straight. I guess if I share that I have an adorable pony who will have great foals, I must be trying to sell them on this board (even though they haven't even been bred, let alone foaled /infopop/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

If Fred or anyone else for that matter feels the need to start a new post, I'm sure they will. You seem to be the only person who has a problem with a thread being "revived".

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Kylie]

I know that this may have been said already but I neeeed to know if there is a website?

~*~Helen~*~
Mother to a 16-year-old 16.1h Dark Bay TB Mare by the name of Kylie

[bucksnort]

Well I guess that Queen Bee is entitled to her own opinions (Even if they are wrong /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) I'm just wondering why it bothers her so much? Don't read them if you aren't interested. Everyone else is happy to hear Fred's stories. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

***~~~Bucksnort~~~***
"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt and dance like no one is watching."

[Riverdale]

The constant repitition has to be considered advertising. (even if it is "unintentional")

It is done all the time on other bulletin boards with other stallions and as we can see by this board..it is obviously effective.

I have come to accept that and now see the "Chronicle Forums" more as the "AFR fanclub"
...see even I am using the abbreviation.

P.S. no offense to your lovely horse Fred.

AFR is real nice....but IROKO and FREESTYLE rule!!

(is that advertising...or just an opinion..mmmm)

www3.sympatico.ca/vnc

[Miniwelsh]

do you have some time on your hands or what?

If you take the time to look at Fred' posts, you will notice that she has posted on every COTH board. She is not jut on here promoting her stallion. She is involved in the board. The majority of her posts have nothing to do with her stallion, and even if they did, hello? We all get on the board and talk about our much loved horses. Are you saying that Fred shouldn't discuss her horse because she might be "advertising"?? Please. As for the AFR fan club, I will reiterate that I have never met Fred or her stallion. I have never seen any of his offspring. I would be more inclined to use AFR now simply because I have interacted with Fred on the Board and have found her to be extremely honest, careful and knowledgeable. I am impressed that others like her stallion and that they come forward about it. I think Erin has already made it very ckear that her advertising post was in no way shape or form aimed at Fred. For some reason, you are offended that this post has been around so long and to be honest, I can't imagine why it bothers you so much.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Astraled]

Would you rather Fred started a separate thread every time she had news to share about AFR? She is saving bandwidth /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif . It's nice to hear about the success of fellow posters' horses, stallions or not. And I love baby pictures /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

__________________________
The core of our defense is the faith we have in the
institutions we defend.

Franklin D. Roosevelt

[Kafue]

My goodness folks, CALM DOWN. Last I heard we still had the right to free speech. Queenbee brought up a very valid point, can we not discuss it without getting hysterical and personal. I really object to the personal shots that have been aimed at Queenbee. Please attack her point of view and not her personally - I'm so surprised at the venom that is coming from some of you.

[LaurieB]

I'm with those posters who enjoy Fred's posts for their wisdom and insight. So she brags about her horse, so what? I brag about mine too (usually on the H/J) Board. Isn't this why we're all here, to talk about our horses?

Do I think AFR gets a lot of good PR on this board? Sure. Do I think it crosses the boundary into advertising? No way. If this thread bothered me--which it doesn't--I would simply stop reading it.

By the way Kafue, I think the "venom" that has been directed at QueenBee is in response to the venom she's directed at Fred. It takes a lot of balls to jump into an established conversation among longtime friends and tell everyone they're wrong.

[Fairview Horse Center]

OK, now counting mine, there is 12 other posts since Fred has last posted. Any of us could have started a new thread, but it seems like we all are keeping this topic alive and well. Also, since posting that his book was full for the year, she didn't have that much to gain either by "advertising".

I also think it is beneficial to keep a post going rather than lots of little new ones. Then if I want to scan back to see a picture, I don't have to search, it is right there - and I have on this thread as well as Alla Czar's. I would love it if all of the stallion owners did the same, because as a breeder, I am always trying to learn, and like to compare this foal to another posted a few months ago.

All of us that stand stallions are VERY proud of our boys. They are a large portion of our lives, and I know I wake up each morning and pinch myself to make sure they are not just a dream. While owning mares, foals, and geldings, it is my stallions that will come across a field just to say "hello" when ever I visit the fence. It is my stallions that are always communicating to me, and hold a very special place in my heart as they consider me their friend and partner more than any other horse I have owned.

It is no wonder that they are always on the top of our list, and I am sure Fred sees this board as friends to share her thrills with, as much or more than possible clients. I know there are many stallion owners on these boards that will never breed to mine, but I still consider them my friends and people that I want to share my accomplishments as well as theirs.

Darlyn Sandgren
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

[This message was edited by Fairview Horse Center on Oct. 21, 2001 at 05:08 PM.]

[Fred]

I have really enjoyed this BB. I have felt like I made 'friends' here - real friends too.
But this 'attack' and it really is - because it is aimed so specifically at ME and not a generalization...has taken me by surprise with its vigour and venom. I feel slapped in the face. What possibly could be this person's agenda? Just a Knowitall? or is there something more? I wondered.
So, I had a look at "Queenbees" previous posts... very interesting....but still not a clear indication of why she should be so specific about me and my stallion ... and not the multiple posts about for example, any other stallion and his offspring.....
Also interesting to me is that Riverdale is trying to start a local breeders support group. Not very supportive....nor was her previous post about Fred. Again you wonder about personal and hidden agendae. Whatever happened to the axiom, "if you can't say anything nice..."
There are many lovely stallions out there. Mine is one of them. I don't expect everyone to breed to him. Nor would I want that. (Breeding season is long enough as it is!) And as others have pointed out he is booked full - and has been for the past 4 years. Breeding horses is hard work, and with winter coming on even more of a challenge. Sometimes I wonder why I do it. It's not for the money. Luckily, we don't need to depend on breeding for our income. (especially when I keep bring home rescues ) But I have a goal, a vision even - to breed wonderful TB and TB-based performance horses. A Fine Romance is a PRODUCT of my breeding program - and I'm proud of him. But I have always been generous in my praise of other peoples' stallions too.
This has really upset me. Nothing could diminish the pride and pleasure I take in my wonderful horse. But you have soured this BB for me.
I wonder why the lyrics of a specific Ani DiFranco song keep going through my head.?

[This message was edited by Fred on Oct. 21, 2001 at 08:02 PM.]

[bucksnort]

I can see why you are upset and I would be to, but remember that there are WAY MORE people here that support you on these boards than the few who seem to want to cause pain to others. Behind ya all the way babe!!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

***~~~Bucksnort~~~***
"Work like you don't need the money, love like you've never been hurt and dance like no one is watching."

[Louise]

Please leave the moderating to Erin, Portia and the rest of the moderators. It is up to us, and especially to Erin to decide what is appropriate, and what is not. Since this thread is still in existence, it would seem that it has been deemed appropriate.

This thread is getting entirely too personal. One of the rules of these Forums is that we discuss issues, not individuals. If you have ideas about what should constitute a post with excessive advertising, fine, post them on the thread that Erin started. Keep your remarks general and remember that we are seeking on this forum to exchange ideas, not insults.

[Duffy]

I'm sure this is probably too personal /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ,but I hate it when I get confused with names!!! It took me way too long to realize "Fred", the poster, was a female!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ok - I hereby give plugs to Alla'Czar and Fakir Rouge too - right here on AFR's fan club thread!!!

Lighten up people!! And Fred, please don't go anywhere. I love your stallion too and can't wait to see pictures, etc. from The Royal. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Erin]

Yeah... what Louise said! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Y'all can argue that some post or another is inappropriate til you're blue in the face... if the moderators don't agree (and we don't), you're out of luck.

You're not here to talk about or insult each other (and that goes for both "sides").

Now, if you have further concerns about "advertising" on the forums, post them on the thread I started, and leave this one be.

[Robby Johnson]

I'm going to follow the lead of the moderators and not get mired into the bickering.

I just wanted to say that I had the opportunity to see an AFR baby at the Mid-South horse trials this weekend in Kentucky. The horse is a five year-old mare (she's 3/4TB and 1/4Trak.). Her name is Romancing.

I didn't get the opportunity to see her actually go (I was grooming at the three day) but she is lovely and was a perfect angel standing in her stall and munching hay quietly. Her owner said, "this is her first trip away" and I'd have never known it. She was quiet (and friendly) as a mouse! Are mice friendly?? /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As someone who has now bred a mare, it's important to me to see the progeny of the stallion. (An even better idea to see them before you breed to the stallion! LOL!) I think that Romancing is definitely a good endorsement for AFR.

[Riverdale]

O.K....I'm confused. Somehow my post is not supportive???? I said your horse was lovely, and I do believe I have said that more than once.

Yes I am involved in a local breeders group, and I am very supportive of other peoples breeding programs. I support the Sport Horse breeding industry as a whole and would like us to work cooperatively to improve the breeding and marketing of sport horses in Ontario. I don't understand what you meant by your comment. I simply agreed with Queenbee that constant repitition of a name is advertising. It is brand name recognition. The more times you see a name, or hear a name, the more likely you are to remember that name? Through this board more people know about your stallion. Just a fact....not to be taken personally.

www3.sympatico.ca/vnc

[LaurieB]

I'm going to bump this thread 'cause I would hate for Fred to be accused of reviving it. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think Queenbee may have created a monster. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Brigitte]

So, I went to the very beginning of this thread. What a great thread. It is packed with information on bloodlines and other stallions as well. I learned a lot on this thread from Jane, as well as other knowledgeable breeders that contributed along the way. This is the type of discussion I love on the Sport Horse Forum.

By the way, the picture of Fred jumping is great. What a nice front end!

[Elmo]

Fred

you better let us know how he does at the Royal, on line and in the combineds..........We wanna know!!!!!

[Miniwelsh]

Best of luck and fill us in on the good news when you get back!

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Fred]

A Fine Romance won his breed classes again, CSHA Foundation Stallion, Champion CSHA Stallion, Thoroughbred Stallion, and Grand Champion Thoroughbred Colt or Stallion.
In the Working Hunter he went better and better with each class,(it was his first time indoors in that big ring) - he behaved beautifully, jumped beautifully - but was a *little* tense and fast. On the last night - under the lights, with the huge crowd and flashes, he had his best trip of the show.
Next year!!! (how can I say that? - I must be CRAZY! /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_eek.gif )

[e22flo]

please, please, please post pictures if you can.

[Bumpkin]

My friends daughter's stallion Capyrus (http://www.sellefrancais.org/capy.htm) was A/O Champion last year at the Royal Winter Fair.
I don't know if she took him again this year or not. He is so calm and easy going at shows I find it hard to believe he is a stallion. /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Brigitte]

I can't wait to see the pictures. I think Brigitte may have to pin one up in her stall! I have to remind her she is only 2.

[Dunhorse]

I for one enjoy the ready access to so much information about such a nice stallion. Don't leave the board Fred.

God forbid that I should go to any Heaven in which there are no horses.
~R. Graham

[Bumpkin]

And Congrats on the Conformation wins!!

9th place in the Performance/Over Fences classes is not too bad, he placed!!! /infopop/emoticons/icon_smile.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_razz.gif /infopop/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Robby Johnson]

From the Royal???

Robby

[halfhalt]

Next year, with a little indoor experience under his belt, he will clean up....i'm curious, do exhibitors suffer the same way at the Royal as we do here at the Brandon Royal, namely dry hacking cough for days afterward due to the arena dust?! That's the part i like least about a long indoor show...and what did you think of the hunter courses?

[Fred]

Pics are coming, so is the video. I'm so excited. On Thursday, Fred was the "hardest working horse in show business". He warmed up at 7am - then his class o/f and u/s started right after the cup classes - with the breed classes at the same time in the other ring. We just had time to run him up the ramp for a drink of water and a pee, (him not me) rub his saddle mark off, and run back down the ramp for his Sport Horse Stallion Classes! Then back for the TB classes.
The Big ring was very scarey - the jumps were beautiful, very bright, very decorated. One, a wall that had half a mini barn on each side as the standard, had shiny metal on top of the wall which glared under the lights. Everything else was good, the distances, the footing etc.
The warmup area is a zoo, very tiny and low ceilinged, with room for only 2 jumps. But all the riders in that division are pros and it is amazingly controlled. The horses then go through the chute and into the big ring and all the lights, noise and people. The last night, the Stake class when it was at its scariest, with all the lights shining off the diamonds <G>, Fred had his best trip of the show, - still, perhaps a little too fast, but I was pleased. A lot of people came up and congratulated me and said what a beautiful horse, lovely round etc, so that was nice. And yes, Halfhalt, I've been coughing my lungs out, starting right after the first day there. LOL Luckily, Himself is fine! He did fall asleep in the cross ties while we were taking his braids out though! One busy tired boy.

[This message was edited by Fred on Nov. 15, 2001 at 08:31 AM.]

[halfhalt]

it is so incredibly tiny - i'ld think the horses would heave a sigh of relief when they enter the big ring!

Glad to hear the hunter courses were interesting. The course designer for the jumper courses, in contrast, seemed to get an earful of complaints - i was really surprised that Eric L. would openly criticize him, and on national television no less....if i were him, i think i would keep my head down for a while, lol...

[Lita]

Hi Fred, I finally made it!!
Congrats again on AFR win @ the Royal, he's the best!!

[This message was edited by Lita on Nov. 17, 2001 at 02:50 PM.]

[Miniwelsh]

You must be so proud of AFR. Can't wait to see the pictures.

*Behind every good woman lies a trail of men*

[Quinn]

I have been patiently waiting to see pictures from AFR's brilliant showing at the Royal Winter Fair.

I had the benefit of meeting him first hand and watching his performance over fences and quite frankly, was in awe! What a lovely, lovely animal. When I went up to meet him in person, his rider Peter Stoeckl was very gracious in making the introduction and I was amazed at how well mannered this "stallion" was.

Can't wait to see what Lily produces when bred to Fred. /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fred]

my new website is almost done and should be up by early next week at www.afineromance.ca (http://www.afineromance.ca)
in the meantime, please have a look at the underconstruction site at www.goldhopefarm.com/tamaracklanefarm (http://www.goldhopefarm.com/tamaracklanefarm)

thought I would post this, just in case we do have a 'lock out' .
thanks every one, for your support and kindness.
stay in touch. /infopop/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Riverdale]

How is Torby?? Are you going to breed her this year?

www3.sympatico.ca/vnc

[Quinn]

I have just located a beautiful picture of FRED at the tender age of 6 which I thought I would share. What a lovely boy /infopop/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Quinn]

Here is one of his babies at 5 1/2 showing real promise in the dressage arena. This one is out of a Holsteiner mare.

[Robby Johnson]

is this!

[Robby Johnson]

Since I don't have a video to show off!!!???!!!

Robby

[mountain girl]

I am a new admirer who has been Caught up in the Romance and booked my mare yesterday. Robbie, you need a video! But I warn you, watching it is addicting, he even has his own theme song which will keep singing in your head!

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

[Robby Johnson]

My mare is currently in foal to him, at his farm in Toronto, and will be bred back to him this Spring after she foals! I saw the video last year, and sang the song for weeks! LOL!

Robby

[mountain girl]

Congratulations Robby! I know Willow is pregnant, I've read all about it here! You are so lucky! If my mare Emmy has a foal, then we will be like inlaws! Emmy is my beloved tb that I really wanted to clone, not breed. That is why I am so happy to have found such a gorgeous, gifted, kind tb stallion for her.

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

[Heidi]

I think to myself I need to buy a WB broodmare so we can breed to AFR - Romany is gorgeous!

[Silly Mommy]

all about the future father of her child-to-be while we were counting the days of her heat cycle last week, but she was rather confused that he would be arriving in a small blue container!!! I'll download pictures for her! Hmmmm... Wonder if we could get his color with her chrome!?!?

You have to be smarter than the horse, and since that will never happen, pretend you are.

[Quinn]

As Gail knows, I have been "talked into" leasing a Hanoverian mare for this breeding season and now "Fred" is romancing two for us.

I'm hoping it's a good omen both are flowers, Lily and Daisy! /infopop/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif