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taliesinian
Mar. 31, 2012, 11:51 PM
I am hoping to buy an 8 year old Imported Dutch Warmblood gelding from my trainers & I have scheduled the pre-purchase exam with my vet. I have leased this horse for the past 6 months and I am confident that he is a suitable horse for me. The problem I am having is that the owners are unable to produce any type of documentation for the horse. zero, nada. Horse has no paper trail. I’m not sure how to proceed.

My trainers (who state they are he current owners) balked when I asked about obtaining the horse’s documents (any vital records, registration, passport etc). They tell me “there are none”; that they have been lost between the different states the horse lived in; passport is gone because it was “so long ago”. I am being told (by them) that such papers are irrelevant, and “mean nothing” and that I'm being difficult in asking (that's the polite version). They say they are willing to “ask” the man who imported him (very well known person in our sport (someone I only know by name) as well as some of the people who have shown him since he’s been in the country (who I have met personally).
I can’t justify paying nearly 6 figures for a horse that could (not only be stolen) but have breeding/ history nothing similar as described.
No paper trail at all on this "imported Dutch Warmblood"? Really? How aggressive should I be about obtaining these? Is it a lost cause?

I am so upset. Any feedback would be greatly appreciated.

LochNessD
Apr. 1, 2012, 12:06 AM
If the horse is actually a QH/TB cross, or a beefy unraced TB, or a TB/draft (or any other possible combination of definitelynotwarmblood)... but still satisfactory in every other way in terms of your needs/goals... would you still be willing to pay the nearly six figures? If yes, then I would leave it alone. If no, the breeding is why you are willing to pay that much money, then you should certainly be aggressive about it.

If it were me, I would only be concerned about whether the horse's performance ability warranted the price tag. He is, after all, a gelding. While certain bloodlines are no doubt predictive of talent and useful for evaluating a younger, unproven horse, I would assume that by the time an 8 year old horse has a high-five figure price tag, there isn't as much guesswork in determining potential and suitability.

It's certainly your prerogative to value bloodlines enough to pay more for them, but in this case, I would be more interested in how he is priced relative to others of similar physical ability. Therefore, I would most definitely want some documentation of what he has DONE, at the very least while he has been stateside. If they can't even produce that, I would be running, not walking.

Peggy
Apr. 1, 2012, 12:09 AM
Does the horse have a name? A USEF record? If he's 8 and has a "proper" Dutch name it should start with the letter Z. If you have a name or a sire's name, this site may be helpful: http://www.horsetelex.nl/

It is quite possible that the paperwork was lost along the way. IMHO, worth pursuing just for the sake of curiosity.

TheHorseProblem
Apr. 1, 2012, 12:14 AM
I don't know what kind of people ethics-wise you are working with here, but "lost papers" could mean that someone is being less than honest.

My friend's horse was one of those with lost papers. Turns out the horse was 16, not 14, so she wouldn't have been worth as much, as you can't insure a 16 year old.

Due diligence is in order.

Sunnyhorse
Apr. 1, 2012, 12:19 AM
To be honest, I would be leery of a trainer who gets tetchy about a client trying to do her homework before writing a five-figure check. (Isn't it going to be hard to get the critter insured if you don't have anything -- papers, show record, passport -- to prove that he's worth what you're trying to insure him for?) If you know the names of these folks in the horse's past, maybe you could get in touch with them yourself?

taliesinian
Apr. 1, 2012, 12:34 AM
i have no information about him other than word of mouth. And he had no show record prior to this past year.
literally...any paperwork verifying his past (age, anything!) would help me just feel better. I am pretty certain I am being taken taken advantage of (and other professionals i have consulted with have remarked "do they think you are stupid?"). That part-dealing with the trainer situation-will be the next challenge.
Would this horse be worth less if they can't verify where he came from or breed/bloodlines? somebody recently told me that all imported horses from Europe who are older than 5 are either branded or have a microchip. i have never heard of that--does anyone know if that's accurate?
Thank you so much for your responses. I'm a mess. I absolutely adore this horse and have a bad feeling about the way things are proceeding,

Peggy
Apr. 1, 2012, 12:54 AM
If your gut is telling you that something is wrong, it probably is. And, yes, I would wonder about future dealings with the trainer.

Dutch horses born after a certain year aren't branded. There's a 11-y.o. at our barn that isn't branded, so an 8-y.o wouldn't be either. I know they microchip now, so maybe that started whenever the branding stopped. While there are two systems for microchips I think that a scanner for either one can at least detect a chip from the other. A vet who puts them in should have a scanner.

Justa Bob
Apr. 1, 2012, 01:03 AM
So many red flags I don't know where to begin. You are asking reasonable questions and not getting answers that jibe -- or are respectful of your intelligence.

If this horse is dirt cheap, it might be a good match -- if the "imported warmblood" part of the equation is irrelevant. But don't think this horse is any particular breed -- esp the one you are being told. Buy the horse if he meets your needs and is sound -- BUT find another trainer to work with!

If you were to pay the market price for an imported warmblood -- you are getting fleeced if you don't have the paperwork to prove what you just purchased. Without paperwork you won't be able to sell the horse if the need arose for the price you paid. Importing a horse is not an everyday affair -- it takes money, connections and determination. And papers. The horse would never have gotten into the country and that is why papers MATTER. When being sold / when being purchased -- paperwork is what it is all based on.

Find reputable people to ride with who give straight answers to reasonable questions.

Best wishes.

flyracing
Apr. 1, 2012, 01:22 AM
i have no information about him other than word of mouth. And he had no show record prior to this past year.
literally...any paperwork verifying his past (age, anything!) would help me just feel better. I am pretty certain I am being taken taken advantage of (and other professionals i have consulted with have remarked "do they think you are stupid?"). That part-dealing with the trainer situation-will be the next challenge.
Would this horse be worth less if they can't verify where he came from or breed/bloodlines? somebody recently told me that all imported horses from Europe who are older than 5 are either branded or have a microchip. i have never heard of that--does anyone know if that's accurate?
Thank you so much for your responses. I'm a mess. I absolutely adore this horse and have a bad feeling about the way things are proceeding,


You're pretty attached, so I would take him to the vetting and the first thing to be done is to age the horse by his teeth. 8 can be pretty accurately done. The vet should not be informed of the horses "age" until after that is done. If he's not 8, then you will know and can stop there. You'll probably be out between nothing and 50 bucks depending on vet. This is the thing they can "cheat" you on the most. If the horse is really 16 and going to wear out 8 years faster, then yes, that is bad. But, if he's not really Dutch... well, his breed, age, and identity will only come up again when you go to sell him.

Also schedule with a vet that can scan for chips. Why not? And if it helps, I have an imported dutch (and I have his actual import paperwork) that is 15 with no brand or chip (and he went through the stallion testing).

Just by chance (because I know a trainer trying to pull a similar stunt), is this horse dark dark bay with no white markings and about 17 hands (guessing)?

SnicklefritzG
Apr. 1, 2012, 01:28 AM
"I am being told (by them) that such papers are irrelevant, and “mean nothing” and that I'm being difficult in asking (that's the polite version). "


This is what leads me to believe that you should walk away. A honest trainer who has your best interest in mind isn't going to belittle you for asking a reasonable question. People who do this are usually hiding something.

Neigh-Neigh
Apr. 1, 2012, 01:37 AM
... would you still be willing to pay the nearly six figures? If yes, then I would leave it alone. If no, the breeding is why you are willing to pay that much money, then you should certainly be aggressive about it.

.

Get yourself a TB/QH cross, or a beefy TB, lie, say its a DW, pay $3000 and say you paid six figures.

It might be what you're doing...so why pay the money if you can do the same thing without paying it?

This is my way of saying don't pay it. Also, if above mentioned horses can do the things a six figure horse can, then WHY pay it?

Rel6
Apr. 1, 2012, 01:58 AM
It wouldn't bother me that he didn't have papers. It WOULD bother me that my trainers were being shady about it.

Kestrel
Apr. 1, 2012, 02:47 AM
If I'm buying a gelding for that price, I want to know (via a show record) what he can do. The papers are only a point of interest, since you can't breed a gelding anyway - they mean nothing if the horse isn't competitive in your area of sport. If the horse moves a 10 and jumps the moon, the papers still don't matter much. You can't ride papers.

Now, the behavior of the trainers involved would have me seriously questioning their ethics and what they are trying to pull off. I would also worry about what sort of management the horse has been getting, since they want to sell it to you for a pretty penny.

*Liz*
Apr. 1, 2012, 05:32 AM
Do you know the horse's registered name and/or the sire and dam? If so, you should be able to contact KWPN and have replacement papers sent to you assuming said horse is who he says he is.

I agree with the other posters, it's really not a big deal to not have papers or not be registered, especially when we're talking about a gelding. However, the way you describe it, the trainer's actions are screaming 'red flag' to me. Given your situation, I'd suspect that the horse is significantly older than 8, and/or is not who they say he is breeding wise. Good luck!

Equilibrium
Apr. 1, 2012, 06:02 AM
I'm share the same opinion. Trainer's behavoir is suspect. Papers and or passport are more than just, who's your daddy. It's states age and more than likely with that passport you can find out what they did before importing per competition record. But I'm guessing that's part of the reason so many papers go missing to begin with. If indeed your horse was imported, there would be a paper trail.

Terri

englishcowgirl
Apr. 1, 2012, 06:28 AM
Papers are not proof of ownership and I am pretty sure if this horse was stolen they would not be taking it to horse shows. Wouldn't someone be looking for their expensive stolen show horse? Worst case the horse is older than they are saying, have a vet look at the teeth for a ballpark range or its not a warmblood. Is the horse that good of a jumper that its worth the price? 50k seems like a lot with a horse with no show record past last year. At least they are not giving you fake papers or ones from a similar horse, have had that happen to a friend.

Equilibrium
Apr. 1, 2012, 06:45 AM
Correct we don't ride papers. Not that this should matter to a rider, but if a gelding turns out to be a reall good horse, other people do care about the breeding. As in breeders. More than likely the breeder set out to breed a horse that can excel at said discipline. Temperament, soundness, early years raised and started properly, probably helped in the overall success. Breeder might still be breeding from that line and it's nice for him/her to be aware or to track these horses by way of papers even if a gelding. So still nice to fill in the information correctly into the USEF database.

I know I'm in the minority but just something to think about. Best of luck finding out who your horse is. As the above poster mentioned, highly unlikely stolen. And passports or papers are not proof of ownership.

Terri

IronwoodFarm
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:09 AM
This is way shady in my book. I own horses that are imported or have papers. I have all their papers and that's how they sell. I also know where to track papers down if needed. So no, a trainer blowing over something they should have in order.

One way to check is that if you know the name of alleged importer, contract him/her and see if they have any record of importing that horse. I certainly would not let the trainers be involved in asking for that information.

I think it is a good bet the horse is a not a Dutch warmblood but some domestic cross. Nothing wrong with that but you seem to be paying an imported warmblood price for the horse.

If you can, separate your emotion on this one. I appreciate that you like the horse, but there are other horses that can be liked out there. I would have a really hard time paying in the high five figures for any horse that didn't have papers and/or a documented show record. Frankly for the high five figures, there are lots of horses with papers and records out there for lower prices. You can use the money you "save" on extra training.

One question about the trainers. Are these crooks your trainers by any chance?

judybigredpony
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:11 AM
i have no information about him other than word of mouth. And he had no show record prior to this past year.
literally...any paperwork verifying his past (age, anything!) would help me just feel better. I am pretty certain I am being taken taken advantage of (and other professionals i have consulted with have remarked "do they think you are stupid?"). That part-dealing with the trainer situation-will be the next challenge.
Would this horse be worth less if they can't verify where he came from or breed/bloodlines? somebody recently told me that all imported horses from Europe who are older than 5 are either branded or have a microchip. i have never heard of that--does anyone know if that's accurate?
Thank you so much for your responses. I'm a mess. I absolutely adore this horse and have a bad feeling about the way things are proceeding,

You feel, and agreed...1. he has no brand big red flag, 2. You should be able to speak directly to importer, 3. for that kind of $$$ they not you should be doing his homework. 4. and then there is the bigger picture, do you ride the papers or the horse? For that much $$$ does he have a big enough provenace as a show horse to justify the price...???

Mouse&Bay
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:17 AM
So many red flags I don't know where to begin. You are asking reasonable questions and not getting answers that jibe -- or are respectful of your intelligence.

Agree with 100% of the above.

Papers matter because they are part of the horses history and prove who he is (or should prove who he is). This "trainers" cavalier attitude towards basic information and questions asked by you are in my book unacceptable. You are having a gut feeling - acknowledge it and ask yourself if this is the type of person you would want to do business with.

I think you already have your answer.

PS not to hijack but it absolutely kills me that no governing organization has mandated microchips. They are $20. All horses should be microchipped so we can know who they are and follow their history. So people can't sell 16 year olds as 14 year olds and do the rampant "make it up as it suits". Seems pretty basic to me...

FraggleRock
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:35 AM
i would absolutely demand proof before buying him!

friend of mine bought a horse from her trainer, got his papers after she bought, oops hes 10 years older than they said. obviously they are no longer her trainer and horse was retired from AA level shows less than two years later due to his age.

S A McKee
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:43 AM
Not really a problem.
If the horse performs in accordance with your goals so what if it doesn't have papers.
Who is the USEF recorded owner? The only signature to get his USEF 'papers' rerecorded in your name is the current USEF owner.

Many horses are not branded even if they have papers.
Look at the top 20 horses in each of the professional USEF HOTY divisions. You'll find a lot without documentation. Nobody cares if the horse can do the job.

Some of the people who have posted on this thread are 'breeders' and their POV on papers does not resemble the group who show ( professionals, owners, riders)/
It's a gelding, you aren't breeding him.

And if you were to buy an OTTB you probably would not get papers with oe of those either.

HoofaSchmigetty
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:44 AM
NO SHOW RECORD? SIX FIGURES? LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Nothing more needs to be said..................

Lisa Cook
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:51 AM
I once tracked down a horse I had sold ....several years had passed, and I was wondering how he was doing.

I got in touch with his owners and they had bought him about 6 months prior and he was competing in both junior hunters & big eq classes and they loved him. I asked them if they wanted some of his old pictures from when he was a very young horse when I had him, and they said sure.

The mother called me, very upset, after getting my recap. The horse, who I knew was 16, had been sold to them as being 12. Their daughter, a freshman, was planning on showing him through high school....those extra 4 years made a BIG difference in their plans, and, I'm sure, the price they paid for the horse. BTW....his registration had been "lost", also.

Apparently, teeth don't always tell the correct tale in regards to a horse's age.

S A McKee
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:54 AM
NO SHOW RECORD? SIX FIGURES? LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL LOL

Nothing more needs to be said..................

Really?
OP says the horse HAS a show record.

copper1
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:05 AM
I too agree with everyone with one addition. Say the horse was shown and does have a show record, lets say as a hunter and has used up his green years. He may or may not have been successful and obvioulsy not one of the well known ones. He gets shipped to a different part of the country to be sold and new owner wants to do hunters, starting with greens.
Though unless one is breeding, papers are not needed to enjoy and compete the horse but one does wonder why those involved with the selling are so evasive!

M. Owen
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:06 AM
"i have no information about him other than word of mouth. And he had no show record prior to this past year. "

I wouldn't be terribly concerned about the papers, but this statement would make me nervous and wonder what justifies a price close to 6 figures. I don't think that I would be comfortable with this situation. How long have trainers owned this horse? Are they the ones that put on this current show record? One thing I would wonder is whether this horse may be older than advertised and had a name change within the recent past. I find this whole thing a little strange, and that is an awful lot of money. I know someone who has a "hanoverian/ tb" cross that I am convinced is a (very nice) QH/TB cross. He was fairly inexpensive so either way they got a nice horse, but I always wonder about his breeding. I would guess that if he'd been a QH/TB instead of WB, they would have paid about 1/3 less than they did.

redhorse5
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:08 AM
This sounds exactly what a FORMER trainer of mine did to me. The papers are relevant. Run the other way. My horse turned out to be much older and actually belonged to person in another state who had never been paid. Real mess.

cheektwocheek
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:15 AM
Really?
OP says the horse HAS a show record.

Op said no show record prior to this year, sounds fishy!

RUN, don't just walk away from this group. Sorry, they see a sucker & you are it, imports have tons of paperwork. He should be priced as a grade horse with talent, because that's what you are buying/someday selling, with NO paperwork.

BarbB
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:25 AM
I agree with the others. The lack of papers would not bother me in the end. But if the horse is what they represent and if he is, in their minds, worth the price, then they should be trying their level best to answer your questions and replace the docs that they have lost, or find other records that would help answer your concerns.
And your trainer is not acting in your interest.
Turning the tables and acting as if you are unreasonable for asking questions is a con man's tactic.

M. O'Connor
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:40 AM
I may take heat for posting this, especially as I do not use a screen name, but horse identification is a HUGE, HUGE issue, with it being commonplace during the course of a sale transaction that a horse's origin and background information will somehow be "unavailable" to prospective buyers, many of whom are hesitant to 'rock the boat' on a training arrangement which, to that point had seemed to be satisfactory.

You are not on the wrong track...your questions are legitimate ones, and deserve to be answered. If they can't be, you have some even bigger decisions to make in the near future.

Good luck...

d1277
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:43 AM
I hate to say it but when a trainer is elusive about a horse's past, the first thing I think is that the "owner" is probably getting about half of the purchase price. I would make darn sure you get a bill of sale or the horse's USEF recording signed by owner on record. I would also worry the horse has some "hole" they don't want you to find out about. (Doesn't jump water, shows on meds that I wouldn't feel comfortable with, etc.)

I could care less if a horse is part donkey if he/she does the job, but I also think it is important to know the breeding. IMHO it is a small part of why the USA breeders are having a hard time "catching up" to the European breeders. Of course, if most people didn't get all starry eyed because a horse is imported, then less sellers would lie about a horse being a domestic product.

Melissa.Van Doren
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:44 AM
Does the show record in the past six months justify the sale price, compared to the current market?

CBoylen
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:46 AM
You've had a six month lease on the horse, have lived with him and know he's suitable for your purposes, and you know his show record for the past year? And you thought he was worth the purchase price until you asked for papers? I'd expect your trainer to look at you a bit oddly. The papers have nothing to do with the worth of an 8 year old show horse, many if not most of them are missing their papers after a few owners, and you've had ample opportunity to get to know the horse to decide if it is what it is being represented as.

DownYonder
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:53 AM
To clarify on the branding issue - KWPN (Dutch WB) does not brand foals. They have traditionally only branded horses that came back to a keuring (inspection) at age 3 or older. Geldings are often not taken back to a keuring, so MANY Dutch WB geldings are never branded.

To complicate matters, KWPN no longer brands in Europe. I do not remember when this went into play - you may want to post on the breeding forum, as there are lots of Dutch WB breeders there that can answer your question. You can probably also find out about the Microchip issue.

And to complicate matters even further - many German born foals get shipped from Germany to Holland every year. Often these are foals that were never branded by a German registry (usually because they didn't "wow" the breeder as a top dressage or jumper prospect). Once in Holland, they get issued new KWPN papers and sold on as "Dutch Warmbloods" - often to America, and usually as hunter types. Sometimes the only way to know for sure if you have a Dutch WB or a German bred horse is to look at the breeder's name/location on the passport (papers).

Although it is certainly true "you don't ride the papers", I would be quite suspicious if I was being asked to pay 6 figures when there is no proof of any sort the horse was truly as represented. Apparently, the sellers felt the phrase "imported Dutch WB" was a good marketing tool to help attract buyers and justify his price, so they should be willing and able to prove the authenticity of that statement.

If they can't prove the horse is as represented, then you have to determine how much you are willing to pay for what is basically a grade gelding. Think about what will happen when you go to sell the horse - will you be able to honestly market the horse as an "imported Dutch WB", when you really don't know for sure?

d1277
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:58 AM
Oops! I missed the part about leasing him for 6 months. Coffee is just starting to take effect.

I would still make sure you can change his USEF over without issue, but other than that, it certainly wouldn't stop me from buying the horse.

Amage
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:06 AM
By law here and across most of Europe it is illegal to sell horses without passports and nowadays the vast majority are microchipped. I would certainly guess your 8 yr old is young enough to have been a mandatory chip so get him scanned as a starting point. Standard chip position is nearside on the neck. If you don't get chip on scan first time, double check a few days later as chips have been known to migrate. A passport is not proof of ownership but it is required for medication control, disease control via vaccination records and certainly over here it is illegal to transpot a horse without carrying the passport with you. In this case I would be very suspect

convertedhorselover
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:13 AM
To those who say that the papers are not important, let's ask the question another way. I am interested in 8yr old gelding. I believe he is a dutch warmblood but he does not have papers to validate this. He has no show record prior to this year. I have leased him for the past six months and he seems to be very suitable for me and my aspirations. The asking price is high five figures. Do you think he is worth it. In my opinion he is not.

I agree that you do not ride papers but you absolutely sell papers. Things change and sometimes very rapidly. You may think this is your forever horse and will never have to market him but what if your riding career or financial position changes. If the need does arise, the market place will not look favorably on a paperless dutch warmblood.

Just my two cents.

Tippy
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:19 AM
I imported a Dutch gelding back in 2001. My contact told me that my horse just made it through the export process before they started requiring microchips. So if your horse is 8, and an imported Dutch horse, he should be microchipped.

S A McKee
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:25 AM
not.

I agree that you do not ride papers but you absolutely sell papers. Things change and sometimes very rapidly. You may think this is your forever horse and will never have to market him but what if your riding career or financial position changes. If the need does arise, the market place will not look favorably on a paperless dutch warmblood.

Just my two cents.

If the paperless horse has a good performance record no one will care if he has papers or not.
On the other hand, if the horse is a POS and HAS papers nobody in their right mind would buy the horse just because it has papers.
The market place will indeed look favorably on a paperless 'whatever' horse.
Price is related to performance.

CBoylen
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:26 AM
You don't sell papers either. You sell trot, jump, and show record. Being an "imported Dutch warmblood" means nothing. There are a thousand worthless imported Dutch warmbloods. I doubt most people in the business would know what you were talking about if you called a horse "grade". Breed means about as much as color. Unless your buyer has a particular fetish, it's incidental.

classicsporthorses
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:29 AM
Contact the KWPN or KWPN/NA and see if they still do DNA sample testing-it's an easy test. That will tell you who he is and if they are telling the truth-hands down.

I would be very suspect of this trainer etc. Not quite the same but I have a very nice QH mare here who has not papers, her original owner never got them from the breeder, long story. BUT I do have the name of her sire and dam and where they are located and this mare can be DNA tested and registered.

headsupheelsdown
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:30 AM
You may not get papers with an OTTB... but you will have a tatoo in which you can at least identify the horse. Even if you do not care what the horse's registered name or breeding is... at a glance at the first letter of the tatoo, you can at least conclusively verify age.

tua37516
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:33 AM
To those who say that the papers are not important, let's ask the question another way. I am interested in 8yr old gelding. I believe he is a dutch warmblood but he does not have papers to validate this. He has no show record prior to this year. I have leased him for the past six months and he seems to be very suitable for me and my aspirations. The asking price is high five figures. Do you think he is worth it. In my opinion he is not.

I think convertedhorselover raises a very important point. I know you love him, but still try to think of this as a sale transaction. If this was a car dealership I'm sure it would be a little easier to raise an eyebrow at the seller. I feel confident many of us would be saying, "show me the carfax!" When you think about buying a car, you want the carfax so there is a history, and we want this history not because we care where the car comes from, but because we want to ensure it that wasn't in any major accidents or something negative wasn't covered up in the past. Protect yourself from this same hazard when purchasing your new horse. I would be asking myself if this trainer isn't willing to be forthcoming and do everything in their power to assist you in pursuit of further knowledge of your future horse's background what ELSE haven't they told me?

I wish you the best of luck in your horse hunt. I know it is frustrating, but I still I hope one day I find myself in your position! Remember! At your price point there are many fish in the sea. You should be receiving any and all help the trainer is able to provide... YOU are the client!

Lucassb
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:34 AM
It's not a popular view (understandably) among breeders, but most h/j people don't care much about papers. I've bought and sold quite a few, including some at prices higher than you mention, and I've yet to be asked for papers or a passport. I have them, and always give them to the new owner, but the reaction is usually, "oh, ok, thanks." Never came up in the sales process.

That said, I would NOT be interested in doing business with "professionals" who were not respectful of me as a buyer - and certainly not for the kind of money you are talking about. The "polite" version of their brush off would have been enough for me to walk, never mind whatever the actual version was. I do think you have a very legitimate concern about confirming the horse's age, as well.

There are a lot of very nice horses for sale in the "close to six figure" price range these days. Just sayin'

NoDQhere
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:37 AM
While I agree that what the horse does is more important than who he is, this situation has several red flags waving, IMO.

IF he is an imported DWB he should have a chip. I'm guessing he is more than likely a grade horse "imported" from a sale barn somewhere, and the rest of the story is to justify his price.

6 figures will buy a lot of horse, these days, so really, the question is what is he worth to you?

S A McKee
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:48 AM
You may not get papers with an OTTB... but you will have a tatoo in which you can at least identify the horse. Even if you do not care what the horse's registered name or breeding is... at a glance at the first letter of the tatoo, you can at least conclusively verify age.

You'd be wrong.
Horses in training are often not given a tat till they race.
Many OTTB sold from the track never even started so no tat.

convertedhorselover
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:49 AM
S A You are completely correct. I was just trying to say, poorly mind you, that the lack of a show record coupled with the unregistered issue may make it difficult for resale quickly, if the need arises.

In this price range, most of the imported warmbloods do have papers. You purchaser pool of 100 may decline substantially. I obviously could be wrong.

Chall
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:00 AM
Hmm, my opinion changes if given the same circumstances, skeevy sellers, no long term history etc, if the price were low 4 figures. All the arguments I would make against buying him go out the window if he were priced low, so I guess the points don't really have validity. I'm thinking writing a check that big is throwing me for a loop;)

JustJump
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:04 AM
You've had a six month lease on the horse, have lived with him and know he's suitable for your purposes, and you know his show record for the past year? And you thought he was worth the purchase price until you asked for papers? I'd expect your trainer to look at you a bit oddly. The papers have nothing to do with the worth of an 8 year old show horse, many if not most of them are missing their papers after a few owners, and you've had ample opportunity to get to know the horse to decide if it is what it is being represented as.

If it IS what is being represented, why should a trainer be nervous about an owner wanting to know where the horse came from? It's natural for an owner to want to inquire about a horse's past--it shouldn't cause a huge upset for a prospective purchaser to ask.

The horse's breeder surely wants to know where it ended up, especially if it's successful at what it does.

Knowing the answers shouldn't affect the horse's price IF it's being represented honestly, but saying the buyer shouldn't need to know makes it look like there is something going on, doesn't it?

Addison
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:06 AM
In general, it would not matter to me that he does not have papers.

What would matter is that he is 8 and that he only has a show record from the past year. Why wasn't he shown?
You implied that he has been in the US for a few years and I would conclude that his lack of show record may indicate that he had a considerable lay up or name change because he did not do well in the show ring.

There are too many quality horses available for sale that I would pass on this one. Too many unanswerable questions.

S A McKee
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:07 AM
In this price range, most of the imported warmbloods do have papers. You purchaser pool of 100 may decline substantially. I obviously could be wrong.

Look at the top horses in USEF's hunter rankings. Most of them, if not all, are imported.
Not that many list any documentation ( even pedigree ) on their USEF recording.
Nobody turned down these horses for a lack of papers.

Addison
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:10 AM
SA Mckee..it's not the lack of papers, it's the lack of show record history that matters.

EqTrainer
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:12 AM
A few years ago I was given a very nice WB who needed an extended period of field rest to heal from an injury. The owner refused to give me the horses passport altho she did give me COPIES of his papers.. Not the originals :( I did make her sign a transfer of ownership.

When I sold him, I had to tell the buyer the facts. No one was really surprised; people are odd and can be vindictive. This horse could have been in the same circumstance, or in these times, lost on back board or training board that wasnt paid.

Nonetheless, the lack of forthcoming information is a bit scary here. If you REALLY want this horse, I would request a sit down with the trainer and be very candid about your interest and where your NO point is and ask to be told the truth that can at least be verified.

onelanerode
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:22 AM
That little voice in your head? Listen to it.

Your trainer shouldn't get pissy about responding to reasonable requests for information regarding a horse you're prepared to spend quite a bit of money on. And without papers, you have no way of knowing if he's 8 or 12 or 14. Teeth are usually a fairly accurate way to tell age, but not always.

I once had a trainer get funny with me regarding the purchase of a horse when I asked a few questions that were pretty reasonable. Turns out trainer was agent for seller as well as myself. You live and you learn, and while that was an expensive mistake for me, it was not anywhere near a six-figure mistake.

Bottom line is, you need to be able to trust that your trainer is working in your best interests and not just looking out for his/her bank balance. It sounds like this is not the case for you. :no:

CaitlinandTheBay
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:26 AM
Maybe it's because I spent most of my "horsey life" surrounded by AQHA/APHA people, but I don't understand why it's so hard to keep track of these horses' papers! Shouldn't they be sitting in a file with the rest the paperwork (vet records, etc)? And if you, for whatever reason, lose them, shouldn't it be fairly easy to contact the registry and have new ones issued? Even my feedlot OTTB came with papers (granted, they were coffee stained/torn/incomplete) and he changed hands more times than the JC left ownership spots. What's the deal?

That said, OP, there's nothing wrong with having a horse with no papers. There is something wrong with a seller who gets upset when a buyer simply wants more history on an expensive horse. Run, don't walk. Even if this trainer is not lying about the horse, that behavior is unacceptable.

Lord Helpus
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:29 AM
I see all the red flags that others are mentioning, but the biggest flag to me is that he is an 8 year old with no show record.

Where has he been all this time? What has he been doing?

And how can a horse with no show record possibly be worth a high five figures, no matter who it is?

You have not mentioned the discipline you are in, but if any of your plans require the horse to be of a certain age (like the 7/8 year old jumpers) or experience (pre-green -- 2nd year green) I would hear loud warning bells ringing.

The most CHARITABLE reason I can think of for the horse to have suddenly appeared out of nowhere a year ago is that he has a show record under another name, and that his name has been changed so he can be shown in divisions for which he is not eligible.

When was he first registered with the USEF? Who was the owner at time of registration? You should be able to track that down on your own.

NO 8 year old with enough experience to be worth near 6 figures just started showing last year. And if the story is that he was jst imported and that is why he has no US show record, then the "lost and untraceable" papers story does not hold water.

If you decide to go ahead with the purchase, make sure that the bill of sale says that the seller warrants that he owns the horse free and clear of all liens and encumbrances and, should any question arise about ownership, he is legally liable for defending against such issues.

I had a friend who bought a lovely horse without such language and, 3 months after buying her, was contacted by a bank in Philadelphia which informed her that the horse had a lien against it (the mare had been used as collateral for a loan, and the loan was not paid off with her purchase money). My friend ended up paying twice for the horse: once to the seller, and once to the bank, to pay off the loan.

In fact, I know 2 people who had this happen to them. My first friend (above) paid twice. The second people had to return the horse to the real owner who had never been paid for the horse. They sued their trainer (who had kept the money) but it had already been spent (so the said) and he was judgment proof.

All the trainers involved are nationally known BNTs whose name you would recognize immediately. There is no level of trainer in our world who (sadly) is exempt from such illegal behavior. The term "horse trader" has an unsavory connotation for a good reason.

I would walk away from the horse (and probably from this trainer). There are MANY nice horses out there who have a history in your price range. You don't want to have a big red S (for sucker) tattooed on your forehead.

Justa Bob
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:39 AM
It's not a popular view (understandably) among breeders, but most h/j people don't care much about papers.


Doesn't not caring about papers enable horses to be sold misrepresented --- esp in age? So 16 yo horses can be sold as 12 per an earlier post?

It seems a shame that the US does not have a national board that requires horses to be micro-chipped.

It would really clean up some unsavory practices: abandonment, stolen horses, age of horse, horse matching papers (switching). The list goes on.

And it would enable this buyer to determine what she is actually considering buying.

DownYonder
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:42 AM
Contact the KWPN or KWPN/NA and see if they still do DNA sample testing-it's an easy test. That will tell you who he is and if they are telling the truth-hands down.

DNA testing in horses does not reveal breed. It *is* used to verify parentage, but it requires DNA reports on file from the sire and dam. They can get a "good probability" of a match if just one parent is on file, but not a high enough probability to absolutely confirm parentage unless they have reports from BOTH parents. So if the OP doesn't know who the sire and dam are, or if their DNA reports are not file, there is no way DNA testing will tell her anything.

FWIW, I have a friend that recently bought a mare marketed by a trainer as a "Dutch Warmblood". No brand, no papers. She found out after the fact the mare was sired by a Holsteiner stallion approved only by ISR/ONA, and the dam was sired by an unapproved Hanoverian out of a TB mare. There is not an ounce of "Dutch" blood in the mare, and she isn't eligible for Dutch WB papers, nor for Hanoverian papers, nor even ONA papers. She MIGHT be able to get ISR papers for the mare, but she isn't sure there is any value in those papers, so she may just let things stand as they are.

CBoylen
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:42 AM
If it IS what is being represented, why should a trainer be nervous about an owner wanting to know where the horse came from? It's natural for an owner to want to inquire about a horse's past--it shouldn't cause a huge upset for a prospective purchaser to ask.

The horse's breeder surely wants to know where it ended up, especially if it's successful at what it does.

Knowing the answers shouldn't affect the horse's price IF it's being represented honestly, but saying the buyer shouldn't need to know makes it look like there is something going on, doesn't it?
Imagine it from the trainer's perspective.
"I have this client who has been leasing a horse for six months, and it's perfect for her, carts her around and makes her look like louise serio. I've had it in the barn showing successfully for a year, and it is sound and I know how to prepare and train it. It's priced appropriately for her division. She finally decided to buy it, scheduled the vet, and then all of a sudden she came to me asking for papers, because she wasn't sure it was worth the price if it wasn't imported. I just looked at her and said, wtf Sally, he's not a bottle of water."

taliesinian
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:44 AM
It was certainly as the red flags started popping up-rapidly- regarding the behavior of my trainer (the horse's owner) -towards both with myself (and what I recently witnessed with others) that I began questioning this horse's history (with any type of documents/paper trail being hopefully more reliable than what's coming out of this trainer's mouth).

With my trainer/horse's owner not being able to back up what they say they are selling, Is it a reasonable to try to negotiate the sale price?

When I speak with my vet prior to his exam, I will ask about age immediately and call the practice to see if they can scan him.

The situation will remain complicated if I buy the horse and certainly I will have to change barns.
THANK YOU so much for the advice and different opinions.

(to the person asking if the horse was a bay, no, he's grey with dapples)

M. O'Connor
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:57 AM
If a horse doesn't have an extensive and continuous record displayed on USEF, it doesn't necessarily mean the horse doesn't have one--it may have shown under a different name, or even under the same one, with a different number.

There is not much oversight of horse ID on the part of the Federation--basically any horse can be recorded by just filling out the papers; if it's inconvenient or starts to be a hassle to transfer ownership, quite often, a horse is recorded again from scratch; names and other data that isn't known can be guessed at or can be altered quite easily when a horse is recorded multiple times.

Many are satisfied to leave this system as it is, and therefore not much impetus exists to change it.

It's ironic that breeders are told to "understand" that many H/J trainers buy the horse, and not 'the papers,' while the trainers flock to Europe to purchase horses, saying they 'can't find quality' here.

Those same breeders find it difficult to keep track of their sold horses in order to monitor whether they've produced quality, because they are thwarted by this obtuse ID system and an attitude on the part of many trainers/sales agents that buyers shouldn't necessarily be concerned with a horse's point of origin.

It actually DOESN'T matter whether a horse has breed "papers" or not--many breeders don't care either, and breed for performance purposes only. But why shouldn't horse should be subject to being identified and tracked throughout its career, by the Federation, by the USDA, and by previous owners, including the breeder, who has good reasons to want to?

I have yet to hear a totally honest and above board answer to this "inconvenient" question, however true it may be that a buyer doesn't "NEED" to know.

mswillie
Apr. 1, 2012, 11:05 AM
Find out if he's chipped. Go from there. If he isn't chipped and he has no papers he's worth whatever you're willing to pay for a talented grade horse. He may actually belong to someone else or be encumbered in such a way that you could lose the horse and the money.

While buying any horse is a gamble, don't pay more than you're willing to lose.

Keep in mind this advice is coming from the owner of a $2500.00 grade horse. I can't even think about buying a horse anywhere near the 6-figure range. :eek:

JustJump
Apr. 1, 2012, 11:15 AM
Imagine it from the trainer's perspective.
"I have this client who has been leasing a horse for six months, and it's perfect for her, carts her around and makes her look like louise serio. I've had it in the barn showing successfully for a year, and it is sound and I know how to prepare and train it. It's priced appropriately for her division. She finally decided to buy it, scheduled the vet, and then all of a sudden she came to me asking for papers, because she wasn't sure it was worth the price if it wasn't imported. I just looked at her and said, wtf Sally, he's not a bottle of water."

What if she's not concerned about whether it was imported, but has been told by the vet who did the prepurchase (because she was smart enough not to use my vet) that the horse is apparently 4 years older than she was told.

Or say she didn't fall off the potato truck yesterday, and loves the horse, but needs to be able to resell at a decent price down the road, and wants to dig up an old set of x-rays for a comparison with current ones so she has a little more to go on.

Or say she TOTALLY LOVES the horse, and wants to buy its whole entire family?

I'm not going to tell my buyer that she had better stop asking questions--I'm going to (first of all hope I am dealing with honest co-brokers) make inquiries on her behalf. Then I'm going to advise her how to proceed based on the answers we got.

I'm not really sure how a horse comes out of NOWHERE, and is suddenly worth almost 100K without having some sort of history. I wouldn't write a check of my own based on what she has told us so far, and I wouldn't expect her to either.

I guess some of it comes down to who you represent--the buyer or the seller. Buyers NEED to have someone in their corner--if more of them realized that, it would be easier to make a good living being totally honest, and there would be more honest sales taking place. One of the ZILLION reasons I love everything about the horse business EXCEPT for the sales process.

IronwoodFarm
Apr. 1, 2012, 11:23 AM
On the scanning, be sure the vet's office has the right type of scanner. It needs to be one of the newer universal ones that can read both US and European chips. The chips use different radio frequency and if you have the older scanner, it is likely to pick-up US only chips. Fjords are chipped and I ran into this problem at a Fjord evaluation last year when a mare imported from Holland was entered. We couldn't read her chip. We let her into the evaluation anyway and clarified the identification issue later. But without a universal scanner, I think you may have a problem with the chip. The other issue is that the vet may not have one. Most large animal vets don't have one. My vet borrows mine when he needs it -- which tells you something right there.

As far as making an offer that is lower than the high 5 figures -- I would because the horse is not priced appropriately for what it is being sold as....plus it has very limited showing experience. I see way too many "warmbloods" that are not, but you get lots more money if the horse is a warmblood.

But if the OP can afford the purchase price and has no need ever to recoup the money -- just buy the horse. If the horse makes you happy, then look at it as not having to pay money for therapy.

Justa Bob
Apr. 1, 2012, 11:37 AM
If you are an experienced rider able to evaluate the horse -- then trust your judgment.

If that is not the case, finding a reputable trainer to ride and evaluate the horse would be prudent. My trainer and more experienced horsey friends see so much more right and wrong than I do. And can evaluate if you are getting a good or raw deal for your area and the horse in question. That would be in addition to a PPE.

It might be too late in the purchasing game at this point. But for a high price you might have the upper hand. Are there any other buyers looking at this horse for that price? If you are the only fish in this pond...take your time.

Yes, negotiate for a lower price if you are not willing to purchase at the current price wo paperwork or some evidence of where this horse has been. Or who the real owner is.

If the trainer has been in the area, what is their reputation? Did they just show up in the last year or so?

Good luck!!

alto
Apr. 1, 2012, 11:39 AM
Those same breeders find it difficult to keep track of their sold horses in order to monitor whether they've produced quality, because they are thwarted by this obtuse ID system and an attitude on the part of many trainers/sales agents that buyers shouldn't necessarily be concerned with a horse's point of origin.


Except nothing is stopping breeders from microchipping every foal they produce or horse sold through their barn or requiring it as part of their breeding stallion agreements.

It is quite possible to create change in a system without government regulation.

RedMare01
Apr. 1, 2012, 11:49 AM
Didn't you say you know the name of the supposed importer? I would absolutely contact them and see if they remember the horse. I would bet that they could give you a good idea as to whether the story is real or not. But contact them yourself and do NOT rely on the trainer to do it for you.

S A McKee
Apr. 1, 2012, 12:01 PM
As far as making an offer that is lower than the high 5 figures -- I would because the horse is not priced appropriately for what it is being sold as....plus it has very limited showing experience. I see way too many "warmbloods" that are not, but you get lots more money if the horse is a warmblood.

.

And you know that how??

If the horse is for example, a winning adult amateur hunter than high five figures is not an inappropriate price.
If the rider needs a certain type of horse ( perhaps one that can take a joke) that can also justify price.
Without knowing the show record, the rider's skills and a bunch of other relevant info I'd like to know how you can justify your position.

redhorse5
Apr. 1, 2012, 01:02 PM
Use the internet. Post a picture and see if anyone recognizes him. There has to be a trail. I'd bet the trainer would not buy him without papers. Ask a lot more questions. Six figure horses don't just appear and start showing at age 7 without someone knowing where they have been.

The trainer's response to your questions make me really nervous.

TheHorseProblem
Apr. 1, 2012, 01:06 PM
If the horse is for example, a winning adult amateur hunter than high five figures is not an inappropriate price.
If the rider needs a certain type of horse ( perhaps one that can take a joke) that can also justify price.


True. I ride at a H/J barn, even though my main interest has always been dressage, where people care more about bloodlines. I can't tell you how many times I have been met with a shrug when asking a new horse owner what kind of horse he is. "I don't know, some kind of warmblood?" They really don't seem to care much about it. They rarely keep the name on the papers, for example, which is always an indicator of the horse's breeding (if it is in fact a registered WB.)

However, in this instance, it does really seem that the seller is hiding something. Besides what happened to my friend, I have heard too many stories.

Maybe place a call to your insurance agent and ask how you would insure a horse for that amount with no papers and a limited show record.

rothmpp
Apr. 1, 2012, 01:49 PM
I'd be one of the loudest voices telling you that particularly in the case of geldings, you can't ride the papers. So, in that sense the horse is worth what you are willing to pay for it, regardless of the papers/registration.

I would be way more concerned about your trainer/owner basically telling you to take a hike over inquiring about the papers for this horse. If you are talking about high five figures, the buyer should be willing to at least make a reasonable attempt to find out the info you are asking for, not just making you feel like you're being a bother.

I also think that if you know who the importer supposedly was, there's no reason to not try to contact that person.

My gut reaction is that this is *not* a import. Also probably older that you're being led to believe. Seems like the trainer/owner knows you've fallen in love with this horse, and is using this knowledge to make you think you've got to pay out the nose for this relatively unproven horse. Unless last year's show record is super stellar at big shows in rated divisions, you're paying more than the market would bear. But if he's worth it to you, he's worth it to you.

Lord Helpus
Apr. 1, 2012, 03:03 PM
I did not catch the part about your trainer also being the seller.

WHOA! You and your trainer are on opposite sides of the sale. He does NOT have your best interests at heart; his goal is to make as much money on this horse as he can. For all you know, he paid $10k and have pulled the high sale price out of his, er, hat -- KNOWING THE SIZE OF YOUR POCKETBOOK.

He is not your agent, he is the seller. And you are a customer who is used to taking his advice on everything.

Run, do not walk, away from this horse at this price. At the very least, offer subtantially less than your trainer is asking. If he takes it, then you know the high price was him trying to get every penny out of it that he thought he could. If he doesn't, then you get to see how long it sits on the market. If someone else snaps it up for the purchase price, then you know that your trainer was being realistic in the price -- and that will allow you to have confidence is him again.

Buying the horse at this price will always leave you with a bad feeling about your trainer.

Or else, have a friend call another trainer who knows the horse and ask him what he would pay for it. If no one else in the local horse world would pay more than 60% of his current asking price, then you know it is not a good investment.


Then change trainers. You want to find a horse you can be sure that you are paying the right amount for.

How do you even know the horse is sound? For all you know he could have been injected and buted up the wazoo.

x
Apr. 1, 2012, 05:05 PM
Use the internet. Post a picture and see if anyone recognizes him. There has to be a trail. I'd bet the trainer would not buy him without papers. Ask a lot more questions. Six figure horses don't just appear and start showing at age 7 without someone knowing where they have been.

The trainer's response to your questions make me really nervous.

To be perfectly honest, if someone did this with a horse that I was selling, I would refuse to sell the horse to them. Actually, if they posted a picture on a bulletin board and was asking people what they thought of the horse, I wouldn't sell it to them. Reason? I figure if the person doesn't know enough to make up their own mind then I don't want to deal with them. The age of the internet is fine, but I do not like the way people are using it. If I have a buyer wanting to know back history on a horse, I want said buyer to ask me--and to ask me if it is alright for them to contact previous owner. Sometimes previous owners do not want to be contacted by people down the line--I have sold horses for people like this. Sometimes previous owners don't mind. If I have a previous owner that won't mind talking to a potential buyer, I'll send the buyer their way. But searching it out on the internet without having the courtesy to ask me is a quick way for them to be turned down on the sale by me; likewise, me seeing a horse I am selling posted on a public bulletin board asking people to pick it apart based on a photo that may or may not be a good one is also a quick way to stop me from selling the person that horse.

Summit Springs Farm
Apr. 1, 2012, 05:18 PM
OP can you telll us what the horse has been doing for 8 years? And how long your trainer has owned him, where she bought him?
And why he is so perfect for you?

Because frankly, I've ridden many horses and finding one that is "perfect" is pretty rare, and if I truely believed he was perfect for me, then I wouldn't have ANY questions about his past,especially if I had been riding him for 6 months.

I'd say just vet him, and vet him now!

So my thought is that he really isn't that "perfect" for you, just sayin..

S A McKee
Apr. 1, 2012, 05:32 PM
Maybe place a call to your insurance agent and ask how you would insure a horse for that amount with no papers and a limited show record.

The insurance company will not care if the horse has papers.
They may ask you for performance results prior to insuring or renewal.

I've never had an insurance company care or even ask about papers.

S A McKee
Apr. 1, 2012, 05:33 PM
So my thought is that he really isn't that "perfect" for you, just sayin..

And how do you know he isn't a good fit for the OP.

Wait I know, you are another 'breeder' . LMAO

staceymc
Apr. 1, 2012, 06:10 PM
The insurance company will not care if the horse has papers.
They may ask you for performance results prior to insuring or renewal.

I've never had an insurance company care or even ask about papers.

Exactly. All mine ever wants to do initial insurance, an increase in coverage, or renewal is a copy of the horse's performance record for the previous year.

Xctrygirl
Apr. 1, 2012, 06:16 PM
Look....

Papers or no everyone facing a major decision has a right to ask their peers (either on a bulletin board) or in the circles of horsey friends for advice.

It doesn't even have to be a high dollar purchase. Buying a horse is a big deal. And I would much rather be able to throw some sanity checks around to make sure that I am both thinking correctly and taking all things into equal consideration.

In this case where the trainer is also the seller, I am glad the OP is asking around for some thoughts. This is a sticky situation and I like many others here also pick up on some red flags.

As to "X" I am so glad to know to never look at any of your sale horses. God forbid my mother (an experienced horse woman) may give me feedback through an email or some other internet transmission that didn't meet your approval.

When I am selling a horse I let the whole world in. Talk about it, analyze the pics, videos history etc. Why? Because I have nothing to hide. Nor do my horses. And if someone thinks a horse has a ewe neck or a may be less than desirable for them...great. Opinions are allowed. And the right buyer will see the traits they love and will largely overlook the comments from the herd. It's always a process to sell a horse, and I will always want to sell to someone who looks at the horse with stars in their eyes and a smile on their face. And if the internet is such a threat to your business, well maybe you might want to re-tool it a bit.

~Emily

CaitlinandTheBay
Apr. 1, 2012, 06:17 PM
To be perfectly honest, if someone did this with a horse that I was selling, I would refuse to sell the horse to them. Actually, if they posted a picture on a bulletin board and was asking people what they thought of the horse, I wouldn't sell it to them. Reason? I figure if the person doesn't know enough to make up their own mind then I don't want to deal with them. The age of the internet is fine, but I do not like the way people are using it. If I have a buyer wanting to know back history on a horse, I want said buyer to ask me--and to ask me if it is alright for them to contact previous owner. Sometimes previous owners do not want to be contacted by people down the line--I have sold horses for people like this. Sometimes previous owners don't mind. If I have a previous owner that won't mind talking to a potential buyer, I'll send the buyer their way. But searching it out on the internet without having the courtesy to ask me is a quick way for them to be turned down on the sale by me; likewise, me seeing a horse I am selling posted on a public bulletin board asking people to pick it apart based on a photo that may or may not be a good one is also a quick way to stop me from selling the person that horse.

I tend to believe that people involved in the buying, selling, and owning of six-figure or near six-figure horses have very little privacy in regards to ownership records. These horses aren't usually sitting around in someone's backyard hoping around crossrail classes at schooling shows. Frankly, if I'm about to plop down that kind of money for a horse, and the trainer is being fishy about his past, I'm definitely sending an email to the last owner/trainer.

And in the case the buyer did ask and the trainer/seller was rude/defensive.

rothmpp
Apr. 1, 2012, 06:19 PM
To be perfectly honest, if someone did this with a horse that I was selling, I would refuse to sell the horse to them. Actually, if they posted a picture on a bulletin board and was asking people what they thought of the horse, I wouldn't sell it to them. Reason? I figure if the person doesn't know enough to make up their own mind then I don't want to deal with them. The age of the internet is fine, but I do not like the way people are using it. If I have a buyer wanting to know back history on a horse, I want said buyer to ask me--and to ask me if it is alright for them to contact previous owner. Sometimes previous owners do not want to be contacted by people down the line--I have sold horses for people like this. Sometimes previous owners don't mind. If I have a previous owner that won't mind talking to a potential buyer, I'll send the buyer their way. But searching it out on the internet without having the courtesy to ask me is a quick way for them to be turned down on the sale by me; likewise, me seeing a horse I am selling posted on a public bulletin board asking people to pick it apart based on a photo that may or may not be a good one is also a quick way to stop me from selling the person that horse.

Nice to see in this market you can afford to turn down buyers that are only asking for a second opinion. :rolleyes: Why are you sending potential buyers bad pictures in the first place? What is your farm name so that if I ever think about looking at one of your horses I can be sure to not ask anyone for another opinion, including my regular trainer.

I'd refer to you to the posts by the OP where she did ask these questions to the trainer/owner in questions before posting here. Owner has not been forthcoming about the horse's history. And is asking what appears to be a very high dollar based on the limited history presented here. So, while you may be the consummate selling agent - this seller does not appear to be so based on OP's descriptions.

Tapperjockey
Apr. 1, 2012, 06:41 PM
To be perfectly honest, if someone did this with a horse that I was selling, I would refuse to sell the horse to them. Actually, if they posted a picture on a bulletin board and was asking people what they thought of the horse, I wouldn't sell it to them. Reason? I figure if the person doesn't know enough to make up their own mind then I don't want to deal with them. The age of the internet is fine, but I do not like the way people are using it. If I have a buyer wanting to know back history on a horse, I want said buyer to ask me--and to ask me if it is alright for them to contact previous owner. Sometimes previous owners do not want to be contacted by people down the line--I have sold horses for people like this. Sometimes previous owners don't mind. If I have a previous owner that won't mind talking to a potential buyer, I'll send the buyer their way. But searching it out on the internet without having the courtesy to ask me is a quick way for them to be turned down on the sale by me; likewise, me seeing a horse I am selling posted on a public bulletin board asking people to pick it apart based on a photo that may or may not be a good one is also a quick way to stop me from selling the person that horse.

So you send bad photos of horses you are selling, and are afraid of people finding out where they came from and uncovering your lies then?

Because the only time I could imagine someone being afraid of other people getting opinions on a major purchase is if they are lying about the item. If you are truthful in your representation and not selling garbage, what's the problem?

Lord Helpus
Apr. 1, 2012, 06:55 PM
To be perfectly honest, if someone did this with a horse that I was selling, I would refuse to sell the horse to them.
....
Reason? I figure if the person doesn't know enough to make up their own mind then I don't want to deal with them.

:eek::eek::eek::eek::eek:

I. am. speechless.

But, that's OK I guess, because there is no way in hell I would do business with a seller like you in the first place.

EqTrainer
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:00 PM
OP, you have two separate issues.

In regards to price - no, I dont see how the price is negotiable because someone cannot prove the horse is a XXX or a XXXX. It is a gelding, no breeding potential, his worth is in the job he does. If he does his job for you then no, I really dont see how you can negotiate based on papers or lack of. Its not as if you want to show at AQHA shows and he has no QH papers...

However, his lack of show record and the inability to prove his age definitively or any history at all potentially gives you a situation to negotiate over, depending on what happens at the vetting and how comfortable you are bringing up a subject that will make the seller defensive. I am not saying you shouldnt, just saying, you are either wired that way or not. The elephant is definately in the room ;)

And you can always walk away.

Triplicate
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:03 PM
Have a top vet do the pre purchase, he/she should be able to give you the horse's age. If he/she cannot, contact a very good equine dentist to age the horse.
Have a very good equine lawyer, like Sam Silver from Philadelphia, Pa., do the bill of sale, which should state the trainer/agent is unable to provide papers, passport, age, experience, etc.
The trainer/agent should sign the bill of sale. The bill of sale should state the price of the horse and the amount of commissions involved and to whom they are to be paid. Should the trainer/agent not want to do this - no matter what the story is they tell you - look elsewhere for a horse and perhaps a new trainer.
There are very strict laws which restrict the amount ( % ) which an agent can charge, especially in Kentucky and Florida.
If the horse has been showing check the registration number from the federation and see what information is involved there.
Doubtful you are buying a stolen horse.

sketcher
Apr. 1, 2012, 07:23 PM
Imagine it from the trainer's perspective.
"I have this client who has been leasing a horse for six months, and it's perfect for her, carts her around and makes her look like louise serio. I've had it in the barn showing successfully for a year, and it is sound and I know how to prepare and train it. It's priced appropriately for her division. She finally decided to buy it, scheduled the vet, and then all of a sudden she came to me asking for papers, because she wasn't sure it was worth the price if it wasn't imported. I just looked at her and said, wtf Sally, he's not a bottle of water."

Sorry, there is no excuse to not only refuse to answer simple questions but also treat a buyer with the utmost respect. Not rudeness. Papers may not be a big deal but the horse is represented as an imported Dutch warmblood and I frankly would want proof. If it were the same horse being presented as an OTTB I sincerely doubt it would be worth high 5 figures. If they are using "imported Dutch warmblood" in their marketing then they should be able to prove what they are claiming.

No papers combined with no show history? I don;t care how nice he is. Imagine yourself trying to sell him in 6 months. Do you imagine you will have suckers...erm I mean buyers...willing to pay nearly 6 figures for an unpapered horse with missing history? Unless he is mopping up in the ring and he is young enough that his age can be proven, I sincerely doubt it.

I would forget about this horse. I'll bet you paid a good chunk of change to lease the horse for 6 months. That's what I'd do if I were the trainer with a tough sell on my hands. Match the horse up with a good fit, lease for 6 months and then go for the sell. But I would not be sketchy about it.

I'll bet no one has done you any favors here and you have spent plenty-O-money those past 6 months. And now they want a lot of money and are not being too nice about answering your very reasonable questions. Get answers to you questions or walk. Simple as that.

BeeHoney
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:01 PM
I'm sick of hearing the argument, "You can't ride the papers." This is ridiculous.

Having papers is about knowing a horse's identity, age, and history, all of which are completely pertinent to its value.

I think that many H/J trainers have worked hard to perpetuate a disdain for the importance of papers in their world because it makes it convenient for them to be able to give horses new identities and new ages, to limit a new owner's ability to track down/talk to past owners, and obscure other parts of a horse's history that might decrease it's value.

DownYonder
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:20 PM
I'm sick of hearing the argument, "You can't ride the papers." This is ridiculous.

Having papers is about knowing a horse's identity, age, and history, all of which are completely pertinent to its value.

I think that many H/J trainers have worked hard to perpetuate a disdain for the importance of papers in their world because it makes it convenient for them to be able to give horses new identities and new ages, to limit a new owner's ability to track down/talk to past owners, and obscure other parts of a horse's history that might decrease it's value.

Ding-ding! We have a winner! :winkgrin:

Even though I said earlier, "You don't ride the papers", I totally agree with BeeHoney. Again - it was apparently important to the seller to represent the horse as "an imported Dutch WB", yet his (her?) unwillingness or inability to provide proof in the way of a passport/registration papers makes the whole deal very suspect. Methinks the OP should walk away.

Trixie
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:35 PM
I figure if the person doesn't know enough to make up their own mind then I don't want to deal with them. The age of the internet is fine, but I do not like the way people are using it.

So what you're suggesting is that you do not want your clients to do their own due-diligence.

In my book, I would absolutely do due diligence, particularly on a purchase that is as much as a house in some places. I would not do business with a trainer who made me feel like this was wrong.

It's true you can't ride the papers, but I can see why someone would want to verify the information on such a high dollar purchase, if nothing else, for resale.

CBoylen
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:53 PM
If it were the same horse being presented as an OTTB I sincerely doubt it would be worth high 5 figures.
Why? If the OTTB is nice enough, it could be worth far more than five figures. How can you possibly make a judgement on the value of a horse with the information provided? She said it has a show record from last year. For all we know, it was champion last year in the pregreens from FL to CC and back. It could be worth six figures and the trainer is cutting her a break on the price to keep it in the barn.
I don't know if it's worth the asking price, and you don't know either without seeing the horse. What I do know is that it is not worth any less money because it has no papers, the buyer has had six months to decide to buy it, and the trainer is both familiar with the horse and desires to keep it in the barn by selling it to an in-house client. That's a lower risk purchase than about 80% of horse sales and hanging up over a piece of paper is not smart under those circumstances in my opinion. Of course the final decision is up to the buyer, but it sounds like they're on their way to having no horse and no trainer, when presumably for the past six months they've been happy with both the way the horse has been going and the trainer has been training. That's a lot to throw away for confirmation that you own a genuine imported Dutch Warmblood.

Tapperjockey
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:03 PM
I'm sick of hearing the argument, "You can't ride the papers." This is ridiculous.

Having papers is about knowing a horse's identity, age, and history, all of which are completely pertinent to its value.

I think that many H/J trainers have worked hard to perpetuate a disdain for the importance of papers in their world because it makes it convenient for them to be able to give horses new identities and new ages, to limit a new owner's ability to track down/talk to past owners, and obscure other parts of a horse's history that might decrease it's value.

:) Very good points

Kestrel
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:11 PM
Can chip readers in the US read the chips used by KWPN? If so, that may be the easiest way to validate the horse's age. If you can get the chip # and contact KWPN, they may give you the information you need.

Beehoney, I did say you can't ride papers, and its true. But I do completely agree with you on using papers to prove identity. There really isn't any excuse for "losing" papers on half the horses that are imported.

FineAlready
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:15 PM
OP - I would not buy this horse, or any other horse, from this trainer. The trainer has sleaze ball written all over him/her. Honestly, I would cut bait and run. Would never do any business of any kind with this trainer. Your questions are totally legit and the fact that the trainer is basically scolding you for asking them tells me the trainer is not an honest person.

happymom
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:21 PM
Having no papers on a gelding is no big deal, but I assure you that there are problems with this horse's history and/or how he has become available.

x
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:44 PM
I think that it was misunderstood what I stated was my opinion on selling horses; I am all for people getting second opinions--from people they respect who come to see the horse in person or who consult with them regarding a video they have taken of the horse in person--what I object to is people posting pictures of horses on-line asking the anonymous crowd of a bulletin board their opinion on one photo of a horse. I tend to suspect that this sort of person either does not have enough knowledge to make an informed decision themselves, or do not have a good enough support system; i.e., trainer, vet, etc. to be able to make an informed decision. I do not want to get involved with someone without either sufficient knowlege themselves, or a sufficient support system. I, however, will give strong preference to the person who comes to buy from me with a trainer in tow, or perhaps a knowlegeable friend, etc.
Interestingly, I really can't afford to be that picky, yet I have actually done this--a number of years ago an offer from two different parties on a horse; one person opted to post the horse's picture on a public bulletin board to ask opinions, the other didn't. I made the choice to sell to the person who didn't. Turned out that the buyer I sold the horse to was very knowlegeable, well capable of handling the horse, and has the horse today (old enough now to be retired).
To reiterate: I am all for people getting second opinions from real people who actually see the horse in real life.

redhorse5
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:51 PM
I didn't suggest that the OP post pictures to ask complete strangers their opinion of the horse. I suggested posting his picture to see if anyone recognized the horse from shows. If he is an 8 yr old horse of this value, surely he has been photographed or someone stalled next to him. I agree with happymom, his history is questionable. I'll bet his name is not the real name and someone might have shown him under another name.

Lostboy
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:53 PM
IMO "Imported" can also mean from Canada or Mexico or Argentina. Too many people presume imported means Europe.

I am not dissing those other countries in any way but mean that the import word seems to add value over "American" but there are many places to import from.

What happened to his passport ? and how long ago did he arrive? For close to 6 figures I would be asking alot of questions about his history and I would expect he had a very decent show record, that you can verify, otherwise why even spend the big bucks.

Summit Springs Farm
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:53 PM
And how do you know he isn't a good fit for the OP.

Wait I know, you are another 'breeder' . LMAO

No, I'm not a breeder...Nor do I know if he is a good fit for the OP. I was just responding based on her posts... and your point is???

meupatdoes
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:21 PM
Raise your hand if you think this horse DOES have an owner, who will be paid 1/3 of what the trainers are asking.

Raise your other hand if you think they've been paying training board for the duration of OP's lease too.

Lostboy
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:44 PM
Of course after posting I thought about one of my own clients who sent a horse to sell
"Imported".no papers, no show record,has some talent, wants a bunch of money.

I originally did the same thing as the OP and asked.. where are the papers, who imported (owner says they did but also doesnt have the passport) owner"knows" the breeding but didn't get the papers for whatever reason. The owner is unhelpful.

So what do I say to shoppers ? WB gelding,no papers, schooling X, ready to show, age is about "Z" cuz I can look in his mouth. He can do this,this and that. Current X-rays. Am I getting six figures? umm not without a good show record. but I am happy to let the shopper do the "information dance" with the owner.
I won't advertise a horse as imported from anywhere if I can't prove it.. even though people Love to have an import.

tikidoc
Apr. 1, 2012, 10:56 PM
This:


I'm sick of hearing the argument, "You can't ride the papers." This is ridiculous.

Having papers is about knowing a horse's identity, age, and history, all of which are completely pertinent to its value.

I think that many H/J trainers have worked hard to perpetuate a disdain for the importance of papers in their world because it makes it convenient for them to be able to give horses new identities and new ages, to limit a new owner's ability to track down/talk to past owners, and obscure other parts of a horse's history that might decrease it's value.

And this:


Raise your hand if you think this horse DOES have an owner, who will be paid 1/3 of what the trainers are asking.

Raise your other hand if you think they've been paying training board for the duration of OP's lease too.

For that kind of money, I would want papers (and therefore documented history), potential breeding animal or not. This trainer sets off alarm bells all over the place.

TPF Hunter
Apr. 1, 2012, 11:15 PM
Raise your hand if you think this horse DOES have an owner, who will be paid 1/3 of what the trainers are asking.

Raise your other hand if you think they've been paying training board for the duration of OP's lease too.

BINGO! Exactly what was crossing my mind.

IF in fact this trainer/owner actually owns the horse they should be able to tell you WHO they bought the horse from at least and have contact information. I would think that a good trainer would actually WANT to help track down this history etc etc

TRY THIS:
Pretend you may not be interested in the horse anymore and watch your trainers reaction. If they are pushy pushy... like fishy pushy.. then something is obviously up. Keep him/her wondering if you are in fact still interested and see where it goes from there.

One more thing... OP, if you have leased him for the past 6 months then havent you been the one putting the miles on him to make him worth the six figures?

You very well might be paying to show/lease a horse that belongs to someone other than your trainer. You buy gelding for 90k.... trainer sends the REAL owner 20k and pockets the rest.

SKETCHY

fairtheewell
Apr. 1, 2012, 11:51 PM
TPF nailed it in my opinion.

But, if you don't mind blowing the money and have to have that horse, go for it. Just make sure you CYA so that if there is an undisclosed glitch in the previous owner(s) transfer/ownership back in time...they can't somehow reclaim their horse....but as someone stated above, its probably not a stolen horse...just shady, greedy sellers.

PS What is on the coggins paperwork going back to when the horse was transported to the current facility? Might be worth checking.

headsupheelsdown
Apr. 2, 2012, 12:04 AM
Perhaps it would be better to say "paperwork" and not just "papers". There are breed registration papers and there is also the other various "paperwork" involved with a horse. Show record being the biggest. Then the other paperwork such as vet records, the various paperwork involved with the importation, etc. If I am understanding the OP correctly, this horse has nothing at all that the OP can access....

jumpytoo
Apr. 2, 2012, 12:12 AM
Heck if I had 90K to spend I would probably just go to Europe myself..

vxf111
Apr. 2, 2012, 08:32 AM
It wouldn't bother me that he didn't have papers. It WOULD bother me that my trainers were being shady about it.

My thoughts exactly!

Madeline
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:14 AM
Why? If the OTTB is nice enough, it could be worth far more than five figures. How can you possibly make a judgement on the value of a horse with the information provided? She said it has a show record from last year. For all we know, it was champion last year in the pregreens from FL to CC and back. It could be worth six figures and the trainer is cutting her a break on the price to keep it in the barn.
I don't know if it's worth the asking price, and you don't know either without seeing the horse. What I do know is that it is not worth any less money because it has no papers, the buyer has had six months to decide to buy it, and the trainer is both familiar with the horse and desires to keep it in the barn by selling it to an in-house client. That's a lower risk purchase than about 80% of horse sales and hanging up over a piece of paper is not smart under those circumstances in my opinion. Of course the final decision is up to the buyer, but it sounds like they're on their way to having no horse and no trainer, when presumably for the past six months they've been happy with both the way the horse has been going and the trainer has been training. That's a lot to throw away for confirmation that you own a genuine imported Dutch Warmblood.

Few things in this world are predictable. The sun comes up in the east and CBoylen will come to the defense of the trainer, no matter how shabbily they seem to be behaving at the time.

quietann
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:20 AM
SA Mckee..it's not the lack of papers, it's the lack of show record history that matters.

Also, the trainer is being evasive and shady about the horse's past. That in itself says "WALK AWAY NOW" especially for a horse that expensive.

Kareen
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:25 AM
I'd be extremely po'd with trainer by now. First of all any reputable trainer wouldn't attempt selling you a horse without documentation of ownership (of some sort!).
Quite possible the passport has in fact gone astray. But if it has there are means to retrieve it (that is if anybody bothers which any reasonable new owner would don't you think?)
And even if whoever the owner might have been at that point didn't bother to have the papers reissued there should at least be a bill of sale to clarify the horse's whereabouts and most important prove legal ownership.
Over the years I've learned to apply a great deal of caution in taking anything a person with a substantial economic interest states.
It's sad but true financial interest sends many ethical concerns overboard for many people especially if your chance of ever verifying anything they say borders zero ;)

Whether or not the horse has a super pedigree or even whether it is in fact an imported horse wouldn't bother me so much. Afterall you're not riding the papers and in a gelding pedigree matters nothing once a certain level of training / individual performance has been reached.

My core concern would be do they really own the horse and if so why are they getting p**** with you for asking about papers. Age is one concern but if this horse was indeed offered to you by someone else but the legal owner you could be risking losing both the horse and your money (at least over here, I'm sure there are similar regulations in the US that if you buy stolen goods it's tough luck but you lose them).

Hope the situation will clarify quickly.

CBoylen
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:25 AM
Someone might as well, Madeline. Everyone else wants to jump to the conclusion that there is something shady going on, make unsupportable statements about the suitability of the horse, and send the poster off in search of another horse and another trainer, with no real knowledge of any facts, when there aren't all that many good horses out there and her training situation has been satisfactory to her thus far. To me, that's insane.
The trainer might be a complete jerk and the horse a geriatric POS. But, the horse might also be the right match for a hard to mount client who has been successfully riding him for six months, and there is some poor trainer out there who reacted in exasperation when that client started to backpedal after scheduling the vet check.
Plus, everyone is responding like a high five figure horse is something that requires an extensive show record and must be imported. Many horses in this price range have not shown at all, and many in the next price range have no papers or are domestically bred. The price doesn't signify.

Linny
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:34 AM
To be perfectly honest, if someone did this with a horse that I was selling, I would refuse to sell the horse to them. Actually, if they posted a picture on a bulletin board and was asking people what they thought of the horse, I wouldn't sell it to them. Reason? I figure if the person doesn't know enough to make up their own mind then I don't want to deal with them. The age of the internet is fine, but I do not like the way people are using it. If I have a buyer wanting to know back history on a horse, I want said buyer to ask me--and to ask me if it is alright for them to contact previous owner. Sometimes previous owners do not want to be contacted by people down the line--I have sold horses for people like this. Sometimes previous owners don't mind. If I have a previous owner that won't mind talking to a potential buyer, I'll send the buyer their way. But searching it out on the internet without having the courtesy to ask me is a quick way for them to be turned down on the sale by me; likewise, me seeing a horse I am selling posted on a public bulletin board asking people to pick it apart based on a photo that may or may not be a good one is also a quick way to stop me from selling the person that horse.

If my trainer and I look at a horse, I want her opinion. I want her knowledge of the local horse scene and possibly the seller as a guide. I want her opinion after she rides the horse. That said, if the purchase is for "nealy 6 figures" and the seller IS the trainer it's very valid to ask for opinions, especially when red flags are being raised. I have seen so many disasters when the client is buying from the trainer because suddenly the client's best interests conflict with the trainer's.

Yes, the OP knows and loves the horse but it appears that as soon as purchasing came up the trainer got a little shady. A nearly 6 fig horse with a limited record better have won some very big classes. No you don't ride the papers but with a limited show record papers have more meaning. Is he well bred? Is he the age he's said to be? Has he a record with a different trainer under a different name? Could that record alter his price were it known? Could the papers reveal somethng that might make the horse uninsurable or insurable only for lower value or at higher cost?

I agree with asking around before spending that much, especially with so many red flags. Can the OP get info on this horse from other local pro's? Has the horse been listed publicly with a price? If so, have there been any nibbles at that price? I also tend to wonder is trainer is the "owner" or if trainer is representing someone.

Since I work in racing, where papers must be on file at the track where a horse is to run and where paperwork is so vital, I find it hard to believe that a 6 figure show horse could have such a shady history. I can see if he was a grade horse, never registered with a breed association, but this is said to be an import who should have a record of importation if nothing else.

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:39 AM
Wow, I have not read every post on this thread, but I am kinda shocked at what is being said.

I AM a breeder, but you buy the horse in front of you, papers or not - especially if you have known it for 6 months!!

Would I try to find any type of history? sure. I would try to find the pedigree, etc, but the bottom line is, would the horse be a good fit for what I was looking for, and does the quality of the horse justify the price.

EqTrainer
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:49 AM
FWIW, OP, a good sales contract includes, amongst other things, that the seller has the legal right to sell the horse and that the ownership of the horse is free and clear of any liens or judgements.

allintexas
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:56 AM
If I'm buying a gelding for that price, I want to know (via a show record) what he can do. The papers are only a point of interest, since you can't breed a gelding anyway - they mean nothing if the horse isn't competitive in your area of sport. If the horse moves a 10 and jumps the moon, the papers still don't matter much. You can't ride papers.

Now, the behavior of the trainers involved would have me seriously questioning their ethics and what they are trying to pull off. I would also worry about what sort of management the horse has been getting, since they want to sell it to you for a pretty penny.

I agree with this. I would be leery also. Even if the horse is perfect for you, you need to know its age and show record, need to know they are truly the owners, and will need papers for resale at that type of price.

meupatdoes
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:57 AM
I AM a breeder, but you buy the horse in front of you, papers or not - especially if you have known it for 6 months!!

Yes you buy the horse in front of you. I personally do not give a rat's patootie about the breed of a horse if it can do the job. I don't even ASK what breed anything is when I go looking.

But.
You also make sure there isn't a hole a mile flipping wide for a trainer to drive their Shady Mc Shady Train through your transaction and take you for $50,000+. Just because YOU personally may like the horse $80,000 much does not mean the trainer should get to pay out $25k to the seller and quietly pocket $55k for themselves for doing you such a big favor to find you a horse. (Shocking to some, I know.) Who knows if that is really what they are doing, but they certainly are not doing a very good job of assuring you that it is NOT what they are doing.

It is not the only horse in the universe, there are plenty of others available with far fewer question marks. Try seeing what they do if you present to them several horses where the price is disclosed on the sale ad. Or a horse where you have already quietly found out the price from the seller but your trainer doesn't know you know it. See what happens.

When high five figures are involved it is not the time to obligingly stick your head in the sand like a good little customer and sing kum ba ya and assume that everyone else is out for your besty bestest interests just because they like you so much.

convertedhorselover
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:12 AM
Let's assume that your vet is also in the horse breeding/selling business. Are there many on this board that would have that same vet do a PPE on the horse that you were buyng from him/her? I have no idea if your trainer is honest but why not get another sales agent involved for this specific transaction. It should not harm your relationship with your existing trainer. All you would be saying is that in this special circumstance there may be a conflict of interest. There are many very capable individuals that I am sure could help.

caffeinated
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:18 AM
Plus, everyone is responding like a high five figure horse is something that requires an extensive show record ... Many horses in this price range have not shown at all

:eek:

And that is why I will never get anywhere in the H/J world, apparently.

Sorry, having extreme difficulty imagining spending close to 6 figures on an animal that only has a short show record. It's just unfathomable to me. But then again, so is quite a bit of what goes on in hunterjumperland.

Linny
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:21 AM
I'd want the sales contract to include the trainers full description of the horse, not just "grey warmblood known as X." I'd want him described as imported, I'd want the name of the person they got him from etc. I'd also want a clause voiding the sale if ANY misrepresentation is discovered.
Funny how "paperwork" often shows up after the check clears. New owner calls person named as prior owner only to find that he was bred by "a lady in Kansas, I don't recall the name or his sire." Prior owner then mentions how lovely a prospect he was until he had to have colic surgery and became uninsurable. He did manage to show his pre-green year, earning points in several rated shows while showing as "ABC."
Now you have a horse that has "bad points" for the pre green division he's been winning in and who is not registered with any breed. H may or may not be the age stated. If he colics, he's a very high risk and if the insurance company learns of the prior surgery, you'll have no coverage for your 6 fig horse.

It's one thing if this was a less expensive sale. At "nearly 6 figs" it's a significant risk.

meupatdoes
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:24 AM
:eek:

And that is why I will never get anywhere in the H/J world, apparently.

Sorry, having extreme difficulty imagining spending close to 6 figures on an animal that only has a short show record. It's just unfathomable to me. But then again, so is quite a bit of what goes on in hunterjumperland.

There are also plenty of horses that come across the pond for $35k or less with no show record who with the proper lipstick and the proper representation can easily sell for high five figures. It is not necessary to spend high five figures to get your foot in the door, but what you don't spend in cash you have to make up for in skill, work and savvy.

Spend the money so you don't have to do the work or take as much risk, or do the workand take more risk so you don't have to spend the (or as much) money.

Either way, this one individual high five figure horse with an unclear history is not actually REQUIRED to happily show in the hunters.

supershorty628
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:26 AM
@Linny, colic surgery doesn't [always] make them uninsurable. I say always because I don't know about all insurance companies, but I know my mare was still covered by ours after her surgery.

Linny
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:31 AM
Shorty, you are correct, but if you don't disclose prior colic surgery your insurance company will not be happy if they find out about it. It does place you into a higher risk category with most insurers.

Another reason for the OP to use a vet for the PPE who has NO connection to the trainer. Horses that are 8 with light records often have some indication as to why. If it was caused by health issues, they buyer should know that.

eclipse
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:46 AM
i would absolutely demand proof before buying him!

friend of mine bought a horse from her trainer, got his papers after she bought, oops hes 10 years older than they said. obviously they are no longer her trainer and horse was retired from AA level shows less than two years later due to his age.

Same thing happened to a kid at my barn. Before she moved to our barn, she bought a mare from her then trainer. Didn't get the papers until well after purchase and mare was 18 NOT 12! If I had somebody telling me that I couldn't have the papers or they were lost and were getting angry that I was asking for them, I'd walk away. Almost 6 figures for a horse that has no show record, prior to you leasing him, would also be a big red flat! Sounds like they leased you a horse that isn't as advertised and if you've done well in the show ring, they suddenly see a cash cow coming and are jacking up the price big time!

Very high 5 figure horses, better come with a great show record to warrant that kind of pricing!

trubandloki
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:50 AM
No papers and no show record do not bother me (for a hunter/jumper horse). Either the horse is high five figure quality or it is not.
It is the fact that your trainer sounds shady that makes it worrisome.

quietann
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:01 AM
Oh, just caught that the OP doesn't like current trainer and plans to change trainers, too. OP, why??? Why are you thinking of buying from this trainer and then jumping his/her ship? The whole set-up stinks like a rotten fish.

betonbill
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:03 AM
"They say they are willing to “ask” the man who imported him (very well known person in our sport (someone I only know by name) as well as some of the people who have shown him since he’s been in the country (who I have met personally)."

Seems the OP already has the names of several people who have been involved with this horse pre-trainer. Any problem with the OP contacting them and asking some pertinent questions? Or is this just not done?

Isabeau Z Solace
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:22 AM
Look at the top horses in USEF's hunter rankings. Most of them, if not all, are imported.
Not that many list any documentation ( even pedigree ) on their USEF recording.
Nobody turned down these horses for a lack of papers.

Now lets look at the 99.9% of horses that ARE NOT top hunters. Would you have as easy a time of reselling one of those?

No.

OP, the sellers should not, at all, get snappy with you when you ask for paperwork. Perfectly reasonable to expect a (supposedly) 8 year old imported horse to have passport available. Ok, maybe a 24 year old horse has gotten their passport lost along the way....

I have been in similar situations myself when someone offered me a 'we know he's imported but have no proof' sales horse. When I placed the sales ad, I said exactly that. "Horse supposedly imported, no paperwork available, looks like meybee.... a really faint brand on him, but I dunno."

My guess is the sellers thought they had the $ in the bank, and now they are miffed. But really, in 6 months I would think you would have asked a few more questions previously, so I can kind of understand they are frustrated at this point. But also sounds like sellers should know that dealing with a not-so-experienced buyer is generally a bumper ride.

If you plan on keeping this horse forever, then maybe it doesn't matter so much. BUT, who can really make plans like that?

Maybe you'll want to show some dressage one day, and go for the All Breeds KWPN 1st level award?

I like paperwork. I don't agree with people who say it doesn't matter. There's a reason Europe kicks USA ass in breeding and selling.

They know what they've got.

This BS here in the USA that 'it don't matter,' only benefits the big time, big top players. Sure, it don't matter to those top hunter folk.

What about the rest of us?

Isabeau Z Solace
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:25 AM
If a horse doesn't have an extensive and continuous record displayed on USEF, it doesn't necessarily mean the horse doesn't have one--it may have shown under a different name, or even under the same one, with a different number.

There is not much oversight of horse ID on the part of the Federation--basically any horse can be recorded by just filling out the papers; if it's inconvenient or starts to be a hassle to transfer ownership, quite often, a horse is recorded again from scratch; names and other data that isn't known can be guessed at or can be altered quite easily when a horse is recorded multiple times.

Many are satisfied to leave this system as it is, and therefore not much impetus exists to change it.

It's ironic that breeders are told to "understand" that many H/J trainers buy the horse, and not 'the papers,' while the trainers flock to Europe to purchase horses, saying they 'can't find quality' here.

Those same breeders find it difficult to keep track of their sold horses in order to monitor whether they've produced quality, because they are thwarted by this obtuse ID system and an attitude on the part of many trainers/sales agents that buyers shouldn't necessarily be concerned with a horse's point of origin.

It actually DOESN'T matter whether a horse has breed "papers" or not--many breeders don't care either, and breed for performance purposes only. But why shouldn't horse should be subject to being identified and tracked throughout its career, by the Federation, by the USDA, and by previous owners, including the breeder, who has good reasons to want to?

I have yet to hear a totally honest and above board answer to this "inconvenient" question, however true it may be that a buyer doesn't "NEED" to know.

Yep. What you said. ^^^

trubandloki
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:26 AM
This BS here in the USA that 'it don't matter,' only benefits the big time, big top players. Sure, it don't matter to those top hunter folk.

What about the rest of us?

Hu?

I would say even less of the horses carting people around the local level hunter shows have papers than those at the upper levels so I am totally missing the point of your rant.

That is one of the good points of the hunter world if you ask me. It does not matter the lineage, if the horse can do, it gets ribbons.

Isabeau Z Solace
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:29 AM
Except nothing is stopping breeders from microchipping every foal they produce or horse sold through their barn or requiring it as part of their breeding stallion agreements.

It is quite possible to create change in a system without government regulation.

Well it is always quite possible for business owners to change...but....history has shown they will not, until forced to do so.

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=triangle%20shirtwaist%20fire&source=web&cd=1&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FTriangl e_Shirtwaist_Factory_fire&ei=Y8V5T8eBMeTy0gHTpbWkDQ&usg=AFQjCNHq57D7uVjCYIuI2j-ZgyZryE7HXg


"Word had spread through the East Side, by some magic of terror, that the plant of the Triangle Waist Company was on fire and that several hundred workers were trapped. Horrified and helpless, the crowds — I among them — looked up at the burning building, saw girl after girl appear at the reddened windows, pause for a terrified moment, and then leap to the pavement below, to land as mangled, bloody pulp. This went on for what seemed a ghastly eternity. Occasionally a girl who had hesitated too long was licked by pursuing flames and, screaming with clothing and hair ablaze, plunged like a living torch to the street. Life nets held by the firemen were torn by the impact of the falling bodies.
The emotions of the crowd were indescribable. Women were hysterical, scores fainted; men wept as, in paroxysms of frenzy, they hurled themselves against the police lines."

Isabeau Z Solace
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:35 AM
Raise your hand if you think this horse DOES have an owner, who will be paid 1/3 of what the trainers are asking.

Raise your other hand if you think they've been paying training board for the duration of OP's lease too.

Ahh yes. So when I hear some folks say, "but I know this trainer over here that makes real good $" it is likely the trainer is likely utilizing such 'revenue maximizing techniques.'

Jack16
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:36 AM
I wouldn't be so concerned with the papers because as others have said they do get lost. Part of me though wonders how an 8 year old that was imported probably in the last 5 years has no papers. I would be more concerned with past health issues. If he is 8 with no papers there is a good chance that something sidelined him. I was in a situation a couple of years ago where I vetted a horse to the nines but he had an old suspensory injury that wasn't disclosed to me. That of course doesn't show up on x-rays, etc. so I had no idea. About 8 months later he re-injured it and was done. That worries me way more than lost papers or anything like that. These trainers sound shady. I wouldn't buy him.

axl
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:37 AM
CBoylen, look at from the buyer's perspective. Say I've been leasing this great horse for 6 months, he takes super care of my ammy self and I love him. I schedule the vet to make sure there are no serious issues and ask my trainer for his passport and papers. Because unlike my trainer who has owned hundreds of horses and doesn't care about their breeding because it isn't relevant, I AM an ammy and this is going to be my one horse. I want to know who his parents are and I'll probably scour the internet looking for his siblings.

If my trainer tells me "gosh, I have no idea where his passport/papers are, I never asked for them when I bought him, but I can call X and Y and see if they have them" then we're fine, life goes on even if his papers never reappear (as long as the vet confirms he's 8). BUT, if my trainer gets offended or tells me I'm being ridiculous, etc., THEN we have an issue because she's acting weird. Now I want to know what she's hiding and I start to question everything, including whether I should buy the horse and continue with this trainer. It's not the fact that there are no papers but the way the trainer responded that is a deal breaker to me.

I enjoy your posts and generally agree with you, so I hope you can see the buyer's point here.

Isabeau Z Solace
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:39 AM
When high five figures are involved it is not the time to obligingly stick your head in the sand like a good little customer and sing kum ba ya and assume that everyone else is out for your besty bestest interests just because they like you so much.

:D:lol::D:lol:

Burbank
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:50 AM
I think the biggest problem here is that the horse is being represented as "X" but when asked for proof that horse is indeed "X" trainer/seller gets upset

regardless of a 6 mo lease and a good fit, if you are being sold "X" but there is no proof that item is "X" then how do you know for sure item is worth "Y"

I have read on here enough to know that
age plays a part in price
temperment and suitability plays a part in price
and even if ppl don't want to admit it, breed or supposed breed plays a part in price, many ppl would rather buy the "warmblood" over a TB or QH even if they are all the exact same price/show record/size/color it does matter and if it didn't then the seller would not say "imported warmblood" in the ad

so if you say that your horse is "X" don't get offended if you are asked to prove it is "X" and be sure to be able to do it

MintHillFarm
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:56 AM
It wouldn't bother me that he didn't have papers. It WOULD bother me that my trainers were being shady about it.

Me too...

I would be more concerned about legit current ownership than papers.

AmmyByNature
Apr. 2, 2012, 12:03 PM
Few things in this world are predictable. The sun comes up in the east and CBoylen will come to the defense of the trainer, no matter how shabbily they seem to be behaving at the time.

I happen to agree with CBoylen. But, I also put my hair up in my well-fitted helmet, so I already know that you will disagree with me.

People on this board are more willing to believe the worst about an anonymous trainer than anyone I've ever met. Combine that with an irrational dislike of people who can (and will) spend a lot of money on a nice horse, and this thread had nowhere to go but down.

findeight
Apr. 2, 2012, 12:06 PM
No papers? No big deal on a gelding. Nobody checks at the shows, horse sells several times, they go MIA.

No proof of importation? No big deal if it fills the bill in the show ring.

No show record prior to last year? No big deal.

Close to 100k price tag for above???
That strikes me as a big deal unless he was pinned near the top in the Hunters at WEF or brought home some paychecks in the Jumpers. Or was by PopeyeK out of Rox Dene and could prove it.

Usually, good trainer/agents are right upfront with the "BELIEVED TO BE" phrase when describing the horse sans documentation and try not to promise what they cannot prove. Here they inferred there was documentation but couldn't come up with any when asked by the buyer.

HOWEVER, as we know all too well, there are 3 sides to every story, we have one side giving us all information what was said and done by another, no input from said other side and lord knows what the truth is.

I suggest to the OP she sit down and have a talk with the trainers AND do a little due diligence searching with USEF, maybe make a few phone calls and peek at Google.

As has been alluded to a few times, particularly by Lordhelpus, I would be more concerned about a name change. Like her, I know two people who bought, at that price range, either on their own or from a known (to everybody else anyway) to be shady trainer/agent. Later to find via USEF protest, a whole earlier career under another name. Nasty court fights. That does NOT mean this is the case here but trainer should not mind the question.

meupatdoes
Apr. 2, 2012, 12:34 PM
People on this board are more willing to believe the worst about an anonymous trainer than anyone I've ever met.

I think you are confusing, 'Not automatically rolling over and believing the trainer farts unicorns and luuurrrves me" with "more willing to believe the worst."

It is not actually unreasonable to think that some sort of legitimate ownership documentation and paper trail ought to probably accompany a $75,000+ asset.

Maybe if professionals want to be in the business of selling $75,000+ things they should figure out how to DOCUMENT transactions??? Or does this put too much of a burden on the poor trainer? Even a gas station attendant can print out a receipt when you go buy a peanut butter cup, but let's all bend over backwards to make sure that people selling high money horses don't have to prove a damn thing to anyone before doing so, and train any potential customers to know better than to even ask.

tua37516
Apr. 2, 2012, 12:46 PM
CBoylen, look at from the buyer's perspective. Say I've been leasing this great horse for 6 months, he takes super care of my ammy self and I love him. I schedule the vet to make sure there are no serious issues and ask my trainer for his passport and papers. Because unlike my trainer who has owned hundreds of horses and doesn't care about their breeding because it isn't relevant, I AM an ammy and this is going to be my one horse. I want to know who his parents are and I'll probably scour the internet looking for his siblings.

If my trainer tells me "gosh, I have no idea where his passport/papers are, I never asked for them when I bought him, but I can call X and Y and see if they have them" then we're fine, life goes on even if his papers never reappear (as long as the vet confirms he's 8). BUT, if my trainer gets offended or tells me I'm being ridiculous, etc., THEN we have an issue because she's acting weird. Now I want to know what she's hiding and I start to question everything, including whether I should buy the horse and continue with this trainer. It's not the fact that there are no papers but the way the trainer responded that is a deal breaker to me.

I enjoy your posts and generally agree with you, so I hope you can see the buyer's point here.

I think axl really strikes at the heart of the matter here. Let's stop the infighting and wild suppositions about whether or not these papers matter to the buyer/hunter ring or not and start worrying about the seller's true motives. We can never truly guess a horse's entire history unless we are purchasing from the breeder--the best we can hope for is that the seller will do everything in their power to be candid and transparent regarding the product they are selling. This is what scares me on this one!

Eagerly awaiting another update from the OP.

tikidoc
Apr. 2, 2012, 12:51 PM
I think you are confusing, 'Not automatically rolling over and believing the trainer farts unicorns and luuurrrves me" with "more willing to believe the worst."

It is not actually unreasonable to think that some sort of legitimate ownership documentation and paper trail ought to probably accompany a $75,000+ asset.

Maybe if professionals want to be in the business of selling $75,000+ things they should figure out how to DOCUMENT transactions??? Or does this put too much of a burden on the poor trainer? Even a gas station attendant can print out a receipt when you go buy a peanut butter cup, but let's all bend over backwards to make sure that people selling high money horses don't have to prove a damn thing to anyone before doing so, and train any potential customers to know better than to even ask.

Exactly. We are talking about plunking down about twice the average annual household income in the US for an animal with no documentation. Like many others, I don't think I am assuming the worst about the trainer, but for that kind of money, I am not willing to just trust their word. The trainer's reaction of annoyance is worrisome (and disrespectful, IMO).

I agree with those that say that you "don't ride the papers" and this is not a potential breeding animal, but in some ways, that makes the documentation of the history and health of the animal even MORE important. If I buy a really nice mare without papers and she has a career ending injury, even though her offspring may not be papered, I could still at least have the option to breed her and end up with what I wanted in the first place, a nice performance horse. A six figure gelding has a career ending injury, and I end up with a very expensive pasture puff.

vxf111
Apr. 2, 2012, 12:54 PM
X, how would you as a breeder/owner feel is BY POSTING A SALE HORSE ON THE INTERNET, a potential buyer turned YOU on that YOU were being fleeced by the trainer who was supposed to be your agent in selling the horse who was doing something like taking more than the agreed commission or charging you for sale prep when it wasn't being done or was misrepresenting the horse. Still feel so negative about a potential buyer trying to track down info/ID a sale horse over the web?!

I, for one, TRULY don't give a hoot about papers. But I do care about honesty. Based on what the OP has shared, the trainer seems to be less-than-forthright and that, not the lack of papers, is disconcerting to me. Plus, she's about to lay down a wad of cash-- how about treating her like her concerns MATTER and not like she's an idiot?!

moonriverfarm
Apr. 2, 2012, 01:04 PM
I'm still not past the nearly-six-figures-in-my-checkbook-in-disposable-income buyer having the funds to make this purchase, but not being savvy enough to see the red banner flying in her face. Money must not buy smarts after all.

SGray
Apr. 2, 2012, 01:22 PM
ask trainer/seller how they want the 1099-misc form to be filled out

Go Fish
Apr. 2, 2012, 01:24 PM
Hu?

I would say even less of the horses carting people around the local level hunter shows have papers than those at the upper levels so I am totally missing the point of your rant.

That is one of the good points of the hunter world if you ask me. It does not matter the lineage, if the horse can do, it gets ribbons.

It's called consistency. If you have a winning horse(s), knowing the breeding gives you a better chance of producing more of the same.

If you don't keep track, then a winning horse is just basically a crap-shoot.

findeight
Apr. 2, 2012, 01:26 PM
OP can easily ask for the name of the importer and any former owners, that would seem to be prudent? A simple session with Google would go a long way to ally any fears. Check the USEF records for those names.

No, not everything goes on there but...it's a start if OP has doubts.

Oh, I don't suppose OP can come back on here and, in a real general sense, share what and where this horse has been doing show wise?

Some horses are fairly priced there. Not for most of us but does not mean it's not possible here.

redhorse5
Apr. 2, 2012, 01:46 PM
If a horse HAD a passport it would reveal any "vacations" from showing that could correspond to injuries. Also if the horse was imported paperless it could also mean that the former owner had filed an insurance claim and instead of being put down he was exported. The former owner has to surrender the papers to get the insurance to pay.

Noms
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:09 PM
OP, I am outraged that you need papers, and you silly people that think papers are necessary (not!!!!). Imagine, using real data and experience about previous behavior to form an opinion or guide actions. That's horrible.

We should just make assumptions based on wishful thinking and then wing it.

spurgirl
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:10 PM
The part that concerns me is stated in the OP's first post, the trainer is balking at giving her any VITAL RECORDS...So, there are NO vet reports/paperwork of any kind on this horse? Put all the talk of breeding aside, the horse should have SOME type of records from the past few years-you need the basic Coggins, sometimes health certificates etc., to show. That, to me, is a HUGE red flag.

I've never spent more than a few thousand on any of my horses, but even my last FREE horse came with her Coggins, and the owner gave me the name of the vet (who she contacted for the records to be released), so I could obtain her records, and fit her into the vetting schedule at my home.

I'm betting the horse is 1.) NOT imported, 2.) Is older than represented by at least a few years, and 3.) Possibly has a soundness issue of some sort....especially the first two.

It's absolutely fine if the OP wants to pay big $$$ for this horse, if she's really happy with the lease, but to me, that's a h*ll of a lot of money to spend on a horse that is, right now, a grade gelding...

tuckawayfarm
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:11 PM
If a horse HAD a passport it would reveal any "vacations" from showing that could correspond to injuries. Also if the horse was imported paperless it could also mean that the former owner had filed an insurance claim and instead of being put down he was exported. The former owner has to surrender the papers to get the insurance to pay.

Possibly if it happened before it was imported, but after it's here the passport is rarely used for anything other than proof of pedigree/registration. No "vacation" is going to be listed in a passport. Where does some of this stuff come from?

I agree with the advice that if your gut tells you something shady is going on, walk away, but having papers or being imported will add nothing to the value of an eight year old gelding showing as a hunter. He's either fancy enough to be worth the price or not. The OP has had him for 6 months. Hopefully she has already figured that part out.

redhorse5
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:16 PM
It's not listed as a vacation. It's just a noticeable gap in showing. It's a red flag to those looking at the passport. I realize the passport is not used here but the Europeans do document carefully where the horse has been.

findeight
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:20 PM
...Imagine, using real data and experience about previous behavior to form an opinion or guide actions. That's horrible.


That would be true only if there actually was any real data to review or experience about previous behavior. This horse is a big blank before last year.

Maybe his performance since he appeared last year and his experience with OP the last 6 months makes up for that lack. Maybe there are still some questions. Only OP can decide that and it seems she wants to know some more about that "time before" prior to signing the check.

x
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:23 PM
[QUOTE=vxf111;6231336]X, how would you as a breeder/owner feel is BY POSTING A SALE HORSE ON THE INTERNET, a potential buyer turned YOU on that YOU were being fleeced by the trainer who was supposed to be your agent in selling the horse who was doing something like taking more than the agreed commission or charging you for sale prep when it wasn't being done or was misrepresenting the horse. Still feel so negative about a potential buyer trying to track down info/ID a sale horse over the web?!

QUOTE]

Now that's another way of looking at it that I never thought of! I guess I'd have to think about that...I guess that as a general rule I have been jaded seeing so many people post a picture of a horse on a public bulletin board, and the bulletin board tear the horse apart--and in reality, one cannot tell much looking at one picture! I feel bad for the owners of these horses that have to put up with this. This is why I, when buying a horse, always go to see it in person--even if the picture looks awful--because lots of times when I get there the horse really is a decent animal with a bad photographer.

On the subject of the OP, high dollar horse without papers, the high dollar does add a bit of difficulty on the subject. Normally, I would say never mind about the papers, because you don't ride them. And I don't normally put alot of stock in what a seller tells me as back history on a horse--I evaluate what I see in front of me that moment, and I realize that what I am being told might or might not be true. And it could be the seller is being totally honest with me, but the seller himself was given false info on the horse. Hence, my reason for only buying in person and making sure I evaluate what I see and don't rely on what I am told. But putting down that big of a sum does make one understand why one would like more back story on a horse.

tuckawayfarm
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:34 PM
The part that concerns me is stated in the OP's first post, the trainer is balking at giving her any VITAL RECORDS...So, there are NO vet reports/paperwork of any kind on this horse? Put all the talk of breeding aside, the horse should have SOME type of records from the past few years-you need the basic Coggins, sometimes health certificates etc., to show. That, to me, is a HUGE red flag.

I've never spent more than a few thousand on any of my horses, but even my last FREE horse came with her Coggins, and the owner gave me the name of the vet (who she contacted for the records to be released), so I could obtain her records, and fit her into the vetting schedule at my home.

I'm betting the horse is 1.) NOT imported, 2.) Is older than represented by at least a few years, and 3.) Possibly has a soundness issue of some sort....especially the first two.



It's absolutely fine if the OP wants to pay big $$$ for this horse, if she's really happy with the lease, but to me, that's a h*ll of a lot of money to spend on a horse that is, right now, a grade gelding...

The OP has been leasing and presumably showing this horse for 6 months. I think she might have noticed if he was lame. Since every show I've been to requires a coggins and health certificate, I bet it's got a coggins and I don't recall the OP saying she wasn't allowed to see it. She wanted his passport and/or registration papers.

To you and I that might be a lot of money, but there are plenty of people willing to pay that and more for a winning hunter. Most upper level hunter riders would not care if it was grade as long as it was competitive.

My only reservations come from the trainers supposed response to the OP's questions. IME, when a trainer tries to intimidate a client asking questions, there is something very wrong.

Ozone
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:38 PM
Imagine it from the trainer's perspective.
"I have this client who has been leasing a horse for six months, and it's perfect for her, carts her around and makes her look like louise serio. I've had it in the barn showing successfully for a year, and it is sound and I know how to prepare and train it. It's priced appropriately for her division. She finally decided to buy it, scheduled the vet, and then all of a sudden she came to me asking for papers, because she wasn't sure it was worth the price if it wasn't imported. I just looked at her and said, wtf Sally, he's not a bottle of water."

My thoughts is: Shady trainer sees kid. Trainer has the perfect horse for this kid. Kid leases and falls in love with said horse for 6 months. Trainer says oh horse is for sale now. His price tag is 6 figures. Kid jumps at the chance to get this great horse. Trainer jumps at the shot to sell a NON-papered, probably draft cross, no show record for a reason horse to kid - (OP just assuming your a younger adult) SCORE!

For a 6 figure horse, supposed to be imported type with no papers to be found, no show record? Would YOU buy this horse? If you did how will you ever make your $ back with no records of anything documentation? OP I think your being taken for a sucker! Hug the horse and let him go... trainer too..

Good luck your in a tough spot !

trubandloki
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:41 PM
It's called consistency. If you have a winning horse(s), knowing the breeding gives you a better chance of producing more of the same.

If you don't keep track, then a winning horse is just basically a crap-shoot.
This is a gelding and the OP is not breeding so they do not care about any of that.
The vast majority of people who want to spend good money on a hunter horse really only care if the horse is capable of winning in good company (that includes it being sound, obviously).




I agree with the advice that if your gut tells you something shady is going on, walk away, but having papers or being imported will add nothing to the value of an eight year old gelding showing as a hunter. He's either fancy enough to be worth the price or not. The OP has had him for 6 months. Hopefully she has already figured that part out.
This.

tuckawayfarm
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:47 PM
It's not listed as a vacation. It's just a noticeable gap in showing. It's a red flag to those looking at the passport. I realize the passport is not used here but the Europeans do document carefully where the horse has been.

That was my point. The passport will not contain any information concerning the horse since it was imported other than registration/identity. Even if it had shown FEI, it wouldn't be with it's European passport unless the owner was European.

FineAlready
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:51 PM
Number one rule in horses: trust no one.

As others have identified, it's not so much whether or not the horse has or doesn't have papers or even if the horse is or isn't what the OP thinks/hopes the horse is.

The issue is the trainer's response to reasonable inquiries by the buyer concerning a very expensive horse.

california rider
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:54 PM
A horse does not have to be imported or registered to be worth six figures.

If you feel it is the right horse for you and it has a show record or has performed with you all you need is proof the trainers own or have the right to sell you and a vet check.

I agree with many who are suspicious as there are some real ass hat shady people but by the same token I have to say I have an owner in my barn who lost her horses passport. Since the buyers were not interested in FEI competition and USEF had her as registered owner of the horse it was really a non issue. For six figures it should have a show record, if so WHO OWNS IT? Start there... Second if you really like this horse do some leg work and see if you can track down a paper trail.

If this horse has NO SHOW record (no association number) I would find it hard they are asking six figures. An association # will tell you the last known "stated" owner so you know what to do... GO DO IT ;-)

vxf111
Apr. 2, 2012, 03:01 PM
[QUOTE=vxf111;6231336]X, how would you as a breeder/owner feel is BY POSTING A SALE HORSE ON THE INTERNET, a potential buyer turned YOU on that YOU were being fleeced by the trainer who was supposed to be your agent in selling the horse who was doing something like taking more than the agreed commission or charging you for sale prep when it wasn't being done or was misrepresenting the horse. Still feel so negative about a potential buyer trying to track down info/ID a sale horse over the web?!

QUOTE]

Now that's another way of looking at it that I never thought of! I guess I'd have to think about that...I guess that as a general rule I have been jaded seeing so many people post a picture of a horse on a public bulletin board, and the bulletin board tear the horse apart--and in reality, one cannot tell much looking at one picture! I feel bad for the owners of these horses that have to put up with this. This is why I, when buying a horse, always go to see it in person--even if the picture looks awful--because lots of times when I get there the horse really is a decent animal with a bad photographer.

On the subject of the OP, high dollar horse without papers, the high dollar does add a bit of difficulty on the subject. Normally, I would say never mind about the papers, because you don't ride them. And I don't normally put alot of stock in what a seller tells me as back history on a horse--I evaluate what I see in front of me that moment, and I realize that what I am being told might or might not be true. And it could be the seller is being totally honest with me, but the seller himself was given false info on the horse. Hence, my reason for only buying in person and making sure I evaluate what I see and don't rely on what I am told. But putting down that big of a sum does make one understand why one would like more back story on a horse.

I can think of occurances where someone has posted (on this board or other places) "what do you think of this sale horse" or "do you know this sale horse" and things have turned up that turned out to be in the current owner's interest. I recall one situation where the horse was supposed to be in a high-end training barn on consignment/being shown and it turned out it was being ridden regularly in lessons at an entirely different barn. Certainly there have been instances where the owner sent the horse to a sale barn to be sold at price $X with 15% commission to selling trainer and then someone found it for sale and it turned out that the seller was advertising it for $X+lotsalotsa and was planning on keeping mum, not telling the owner, and pocketing the difference.

Not all threads about sale horses are negative. And if people have criticism of a horse on photos, oh well. I guess they're not the right buyers. But as a seller, I think you have to have a little bit of a thicker skin. If you put your photos out there, they're subject to discussion. That discussion may benefit you, or you may disagree-- but it's not inappropriate and I cannot imagine nixing a sale for that reason!

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 2, 2012, 03:01 PM
I guess it bugs me more that someone can not be bothered to keep papers a horse already has. It isn't some huge burden....and it does raise red flags to me.


In the USA, you need a national passoport in eventing to compete at a fairly low level...since lucky us hit FEI levels at a fairly low level. ALL horses now have to be microchipped to be registered with the FEI. Hopefully..it will not take too long for a microchip requirement to filter down to national levels....as it should. It would really help on many levels (avoid fraud, keep track of horses etc)

I don't care about a horse's "papers" per se....not with a gelding (although it is useful to know what bloodlines produce the horse I like). But I DO want to know who the horse is that I'm buying...and have some assurances that the person selling has authority to sell.

OP...you are not crazy to ask for his papers. And why people can't keep track of something as simple as a passport for a horse is a bit scary. It is one thing if the horse doesn't have papers...that's fine. But if he does, come on. Keep track of them. Every OTTB I've ever sold...I sold on with their JC club papers even though they were geldings who were never going to race again. It just isn't that hard to keep track of them.

If you were selling an event horse....and it had an FEI passport (which a whole lot of them do)...it absolutely would be expected to be sold with the horse. To me this really isn't much different.

klmck63
Apr. 2, 2012, 03:06 PM
That was my point. The passport will not contain any information concerning the horse since it was imported other than registration/identity. Even if it had shown FEI, it wouldn't be with it's European passport unless the owner was European.

I suppose this horse is located in the US and so this is irrelevant, but in case you were curious, Equine Canada passports are required to be handed into the office at every rated show. They are stamped, dated and signed by a show secretary. So if you are buying a Canadian horse, its whole rated-show record is in its passport and the passport would obviously record gaps in showing, etc. Under EC rules, the passport MUST be given to the new owner when the horse is sold and it is rather complicated to get a new passport if the horse has already been registered.

In regards to the OP, if I was buying an expensive horse that was listed as X, Y, Z, I would want proof that that is what it really was. In today's market (right or wrong) a winning imported warmblood is generally worth more than a winning quarter horse or draft cross. The fact that NO record can be produced for the horse would concern me and I would be afraid I was purchasing something that was being misrepresented in other ways.

For the record, 3' imported children's hunter (worth significantly, significantly less than this horse is for sale for) who had been in Canada for 8 years when I bought her and changed hands a couple of times still came with all of her travel documents, papers, etc. So from my point of view, the expectation of receiving these sorts of document with a horse is not unreasonable.

Timex
Apr. 2, 2012, 03:07 PM
[QUOTE=trubandloki;6231570]This is a gelding and the OP is not breeding so they do not care about any of that.
The vast majority of people who want to spend good money on a hunter horse really only care if the horse is capable of winning in good company (that includes it being sound, obviously)./QUOTE]

You're missing the point. All those nice, consistent, winning geldings had to come from somewhere, right? So the breeders want to know that breeding X to Y produces those nice geldings. Or doesn't. Either way, hard to know without tracking it somehow.

That being said, I agree, you *cant* ride the papers, and I'm going to buy the most suitable horse, the papers are not going to make it or break it for me, for a riding horse. But without a solid history, a sketchy background, no show record from more than a year ago, and a trainer whose reaction is (at least to the op) excessive? I'd pass.

redhorse5
Apr. 2, 2012, 03:09 PM
That was my point. The passport will not contain any information concerning the horse since it was imported other than registration/identity. Even if it had shown FEI, it wouldn't be with it's European passport unless the owner was European.

My point is that if the buyer had access to the passport then IF there were gaps in the show record - substantial gaps - it could signal to the POTENTIAL BUYER that the horse had sustained an injury which might not NOW show up on an exam. Not that the passport is useful here. Just that the information contained in a passport could be damaging to the overall picture supporting the price. I've imported horses and I'm familiar with the paperwork that accompanies them. This would explain the seller not providing such documentation.

mvp
Apr. 2, 2012, 03:17 PM
OP, I think you are within your rights to ask for "proof" of anything your sellers claim about the horse you have been offered. It's your money up front, and your money down the road when the horse needs anything, including a next buyer.

How do you feel about having to sell him without papers or any way for your buyer to have faith in what you say about his age?

Geez, OP, your a grown-up who is taking on a grown-up responsibility and having a grown-up wallet. Why not find the importer and get at least some of the info you want? Don't let a horse trainer (who presumably works for you) stand in your way!

trubandloki
Apr. 2, 2012, 03:40 PM
You're missing the point. All those nice, consistent, winning geldings had to come from somewhere, right? So the breeders want to know that breeding X to Y produces those nice geldings. Or doesn't. Either way, hard to know without tracking it somehow.

I most certainly was not missing that point. I was making the counter point that the average buyer does not care as long as Dobbin can go in the ring and do his job.
Not having any knowledge of his breeding does not make him worth any less if he can carry his rider around to a blue ribbon at the level they want that blue ribbon at.

Yes, not knowing his breeding does get the breeding people upset and does put them at a disadvantage, but I do not believe that is what this thread is about. It is about a gelding not having papers and does that affect his value.

DownYonder
Apr. 2, 2012, 03:43 PM
Many horses in this price range have not shown at all

Color me confused, but I cannot imagine how a seller can justify a 6 figure price tag for a horse with no show record. Nor can I imagine how a buyer lets herself get talked into paying 6 figures for a horse with no show record - especially one with no papers and no breeding value). :confused:

findeight
Apr. 2, 2012, 04:04 PM
Color me confused, but I cannot imagine how a seller can justify a 6 figure price tag for a horse with no show record.


Oh, the offspring of two well known elite level multi Champions is going to price there before they get to the show ring. Easy. Assuming they have the proof of course.

And this one DOES have a show record...somewhere, doing something, so far we don't know. It's not a total unknown.

But only for the last year or so, before that there is nothing. At that price, unless the show record is pretty substantial against known to be good company? I'd want some more information.

I sure don't begrudge any seller for pricing their offerings as high as they see fit. If buyers can afford it, I could not care less what they pay. It gives me a little pause, however, if seller makes claims of desireable (to many buyers) traits and then hem and haw when asked for details or proof.
But OP can deal with that with a little research on her part. And needs to.

lesson junkie
Apr. 2, 2012, 04:52 PM
Would there be USEF records if the horse was shown at local schooling shows?

An 8yo might have only been shown locally, and still have lots of milage. The schooling shows we have are at the same facilities as the USEF shows. I'm sure my horse doesn't know the difference.

The way the economy has been the last 4 years, it's not unreasonable for an owner to pass up the expensive shows, especially if the horse was green.

findeight
Apr. 2, 2012, 04:59 PM
Nope, no records for non rated shows with USEF.

But there may be records with the "name the state or region" Hunter Jumper assoc. IF the owner at the time was a member of said group. They keep those online these days for several years and it costs not a penny to look.

However, seller would need to share where the horse was allegedly shown and when with prospective buyer and at least the correct spelling of the show name at the time if not the name of the owner at the time.

Blugal
Apr. 2, 2012, 05:05 PM
If you were selling an event horse....and it had an FEI passport (which a whole lot of them do)...it absolutely would be expected to be sold with the horse. To me this really isn't much different.

Yes... and why I find this deal shady... is that I know of a horse that had shown FEI under one name, had some issues with new rider, then went to a BNT barn and suddenly had a new name with new & better results - and put up for sale without any of the previous history in the sales ad. But the FEI passport remained the same.

Just Around the Corner
Apr. 2, 2012, 05:26 PM
I'll confess I haven't read the first 9 pages, so I apologize if these points have already been covered.

You will need/want some sort of paperwork if it has ever existed for insurance purposes.

1) It's nearly impossible to insure for loss-of-use a horse over age 14-15. There are exceptions of course but very few. Most insurance companies have a blanket limit at age 14/15. I am assuming given the pricetag that you'll be insuring this horse? You will want/need to determine age pretty definitively.

2) IMHO to get the horse, without a significant show record, appraised for the value you're talking about paying, you're going to need to establish 'cred' - as in, importing documentation, passport, etc. Horses are valued for insurance purposes using a mix of show record, ability, training, and/or breeding or lineage (= "potential"), etc. This prevents someone from appraising the $500 grade horse they found in their backyard that can jump a 4' fence for $100,000 until it gets the show record to prove it (and then filing for those claims when it's injured or dies and the horse was never worth that). Of course some recent imports are highly insured - but they typically have the breed documentation to support the 'potential' claim.

3) Is the horse not insured currently? I would imagine you could find out a lot of this documentation via the insurance policy on this horse (the owners would have to dig it up for you). I know I turned it over when I insured my horses.

[And yes, you can generally get many horses insured without any paperwork - I got a 'lost papers/unknown breeding' TB/WB pre-green horse insured for $30k without any sort of history documentation - but what the original poster is implying about the purchase price - 6 figures - in my experience requires what they call a "justification of value/appraisal."]

A super well-trained, experienced horse lacking any show record (in the US or abroad), who was supposedly imported in the last few years by a "known" trainer/importer, but doesn't have any documentation with USEF, FEI, breed organizations, show results, etc? Something doesn't add up. If the horse was shown in the junior hunters and eq classes (did I read that somewhere in your post or on this thread?) it would HAVE to be USEF registered because it would have to have a card showing its height (to determine whether it was a small junior hunter or a large junior hunter). You can't show in the junior hunters without a junior hunter card.

This is going to sound like it's coming out of left field, but there are reasons I'm asking this question: Has the horse in question ever had a loss-of-use claim filed against it?

findeight
Apr. 2, 2012, 05:46 PM
This is going to sound like it's coming out of left field, but there are reasons I'm asking this question: Has the horse in question ever had a loss-of-use claim filed against it?


Keeping your metaphor, that's not coming out of left field, more like off the pitchers mound with a full count.

There are many reasons for changing a fairly successful show horse's name without disclosing the previous name to a potential buyer. Several posters have referred to those reasons. None of those reasons are good, most legit sellers brag on a show record. Mentioned so far, could be a loss of use pay out, changing names and relocating to compete in classes they are no longer eligible for (Green or age restricted) a Small Jr that busted a measurement protest back as a Green Hunter under that new name. Then there was a well known Small Division Pony with years of mileage that busted a measurement and turned up a small Medium Green 4 states over.

But we do not know if that is the case here or not. And it may well be just a set of innocent circumstances that had the horse come over rather late and flip owners several times with great training and intentions that just never made the rated show ring until last year. Not all that uncommon.

Not out of line for buyer to ask for more background to be sure by asking simple questions and following up. I don't think expecting a decent answer to those questions is out of line either. Especially if there were claims made that suddenly cannot be substantiated.

It has always been buyer beware and 6 figures is a big mistake.

dutchboy
Apr. 2, 2012, 05:56 PM
I have been following this thread and think that very valid points have been raised by all.
What I am wondering at this point, after all has been said and said again, is what the OP plans to do??
I have purchased a branded Oldenberg with no papers, an imported Dutch horse with passport, etc., and a US bred branded Holsteiner with documentation. I knew what I was getting into from the get-go. I would probably run like the wind from this deal.:yes:

danceronice
Apr. 2, 2012, 05:59 PM
I think you are confusing, 'Not automatically rolling over and believing the trainer farts unicorns and luuurrrves me" with "more willing to believe the worst."

It is not actually unreasonable to think that some sort of legitimate ownership documentation and paper trail ought to probably accompany a $75,000+ asset.

Maybe if professionals want to be in the business of selling $75,000+ things they should figure out how to DOCUMENT transactions??? Or does this put too much of a burden on the poor trainer? Even a gas station attendant can print out a receipt when you go buy a peanut butter cup, but let's all bend over backwards to make sure that people selling high money horses don't have to prove a damn thing to anyone before doing so, and train any potential customers to know better than to even ask.

You know, this horse costs more than my HOUSE.

Yeah, you don't ride the papers, blah blah blah. If the OP is actually considering coughing up the money it appears to be a good horse for her. So why is the trainer alleging it's an imported Dutch Warmblood and getting pissy when asked for a piece of paper to back it up? If breeding shouldn't matter and the trainer's entitled to act all huffy when someone asks for proof, why advertise its breed at all?

The fact that a horse is or isn't registered wouldn't bother me if it performed like a near-six figure horse. The fact that the trainer makes claims about it, then not only can't back them up but gets annoyed at my asking, would bother me a lot. Is the horse really imported? Is he really eight? Is the trainer lying about the price and pocketing the difference? Is someone going to show up with a lien on the horse? Was it stolen?

It's not really the question of papers. It's that once hte trainer starts asking like he's doing you a HUGE favor selling you a $90,000 horse and why on EARTH are you asking for any sort of proof of anything s/he says, red flags go up.

S A McKee
Apr. 2, 2012, 06:13 PM
The fact that a horse is or isn't registered wouldn't bother me if it performed like a near-six figure horse. The fact that the trainer makes claims about it, then not only can't back them up but gets annoyed at my asking, would bother me a lot. Is the horse really imported? Is he really eight? Is the trainer lying about the price and pocketing the difference? Is someone going to show up with a lien on the horse? Was it stolen?

It's not really the question of papers. It's that once hte trainer starts asking like he's doing you a HUGE favor selling you a $90,000 horse and why on EARTH are you asking for any sort of proof of anything s/he says, red flags go up.

I'm a little surprised at your position.
You regularly push OTTB's from fingerlakes yet many of those do not come with papers.
In the future before buying an OTTB from fingerlakes or an OTTB rescue should I consider that the horse could be stolen or advertised as a TB when it really isn't?
Perhaps no one should buy OTTB's with all the possibilities for fraud ??
You can't have it one way for horses you push and then complain about H/J sales of show horses.

atr
Apr. 2, 2012, 06:21 PM
I think I'd want some kind of provenance on anything I was going to purchase as that kind of price, horse, artwork, house, or whatever.

I might take a bit of a flier on a $2000 OTTB, but for the cost of a house, I'd like a "clear title."

altjaeger
Apr. 2, 2012, 06:21 PM
OTTBs from fingerlakes are about $1000. Shouldn't that make a difference? Also, you at least know it is a TB.

sketcher
Apr. 2, 2012, 06:28 PM
I'm a little surprised at your position.
You regularly push OTTB's from fingerlakes yet many of those do not come with papers.
In the future before buying an OTTB from fingerlakes or an OTTB rescue should I consider that the horse could be stolen or advertised as a TB when it really isn't?
Perhaps no one should buy OTTB's with all the possibilities for fraud ??
You can't have it one way for horses you push and then complain about H/J sales of show horses.

How silly for you to try and compare those two scenarios.

halo
Apr. 2, 2012, 06:46 PM
Its all about documentation. It has nothing to do with, you dont ride papers, geldings dont need papers, blah blah blah.

Its documentation. Its that the registration papers you hold in your hand match the horse standing in front of you. With their markings, breeding, and AGE. Without that, all you have is some yahoo telling you this gelding is imported and wonderful and worth high 5 figures, when in reality he could have picked him up for $300 at New Holland the previous year. Because theres no documentation.

This is why we have registration papers. Because without them, especially with a non tattooed or chipped gelding, you have a grade gelding. It could be a $75,000 grade gelding, but a grade gelding just the same. You might as well have a mustang.

Thank goodness with TBs we have lip tattoos which are 100% traceable to who the horse is, his breeding his age, his breeder, and somewhat of a track of ownership. Even when these TBs end up on a feedlot, someone can trace who they are and find them a home, or a previous owner.

With these "grade" geldings, the feedlot can be their last stop. Because no one knows who they are. Its for their own safety that their papers go with them. And in my mind, if someone isnt forthcoming with a horse's past or registration papers, the horse isnt who he is advertised as. Period. People who seem to be hiding something, have something to hide.

S A McKee
Apr. 2, 2012, 06:48 PM
OTTBs from fingerlakes are about $1000. Shouldn't that make a difference? Also, you at least know it is a TB.

And without papers how would you know that?

S A McKee
Apr. 2, 2012, 06:49 PM
How silly for you to try and compare those two scenarios.

Really?
Please explain your logic?

TheHorseProblem
Apr. 2, 2012, 06:49 PM
This is going to sound like it's coming out of left field, but there are reasons I'm asking this question: Has the horse in question ever had a loss-of-use claim filed against it?

Or was a well-know stopper at shows, which this trainer fixed, but whose history makes him a 20K horse.

Or was given away because former owner didn't want to do the rehab on a suspensory.

I have run across both scenarios in my horse shopping days.

halo
Apr. 2, 2012, 06:52 PM
And without papers how would you know that?

Do you know what a lip tattoo is?

altjaeger
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:03 PM
Do you know what a lip tattoo is?

I think they are talking about the situation where the horse never actually raced. I suppose someone could take a non-race-horse non-TB to the track and sell it as a TB without papers but for $1000, how big a deal would it be? But technically, I guess S.A. is correct.

tikidoc
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:05 PM
And without papers how would you know that?

I think the comparison is silly. You are paying maybe $1-2K for the Finger Lakes horse. The OP is considering paying about twice the median household income in the US for this horse, that has zero documentation to show that it is what the trainer is claiming. And said trainer is getting snippy when asked for said documentation. Big, big difference.

ETA I own an OTTB without papers. He was pulled off a slaughter truck. But I paid next to nothing for him, and I have verified by his tattoo that he is who I think he is. I know his age, I know when he raced, and I know that he raced every month or more for 4 years, so no injuries resulting in significant time off. So I have more info on the history of my slaughter truck OTTB than the OP has on this almost $100K horse.

BarbB
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:09 PM
It is silly to compare this situation with an OTTB. An OTTB most often has a tattoo and if not all you need is the name of the trainer, the name of the track and a description of the horse and the track can tell you who owns the horse. You can't just wander in and out of a track stable with no accounting.
If the OP could get information that easily she would have her questions answered.

Edited to add: I think the issue here is not the horse (which the OP wants to buy) or the papers (which we have established that you can live without) but rather the trainer being unable or unwilling to account for/document anything about this horse, including its age.

danceronice
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:13 PM
I'm a little surprised at your position.
You regularly push OTTB's from fingerlakes yet many of those do not come with papers.
In the future before buying an OTTB from fingerlakes or an OTTB rescue should I consider that the horse could be stolen or advertised as a TB when it really isn't?
Perhaps no one should buy OTTB's with all the possibilities for fraud ??
You can't have it one way for horses you push and then complain about H/J sales of show horses.

No, because the first thing you do with an OTTB (as in one who has raced) is flip their lip and check the tattoo against their papers. In thirty seconds I know exactly who the horse is. If the trainer won't hand over the papers, I personally won't touch them. For a gelding I just want them because they're his, for a mare one who can't be bred for a JC foal isn't worth anything to me. (Also, for Thoroughbreds, it spells out on the papers "Certificate to be preserved and transferred to purchaser gratis if this horse is sold. Possession and presentation of certificate is a requirement to race or breed the horse it identifies." The papers belong to the horse, not the owner.) Lucky's papers have his foal certificate, his name registration stapled to the front, the signatures of owners/agents, record of races won signed by the track secretaries, and his bleeder paper stapled to the back. He also has DNA on file, and yes, when he came off the trailer, I checked the tattoo against the papers.

Now, I might consider buying a known OTTB from someone who wanted to keep the papers and turn them in as dead, IF it was a gelding, and I had a photocopy with the tattoo to double-check. I wouldn't buy sight-unseen in that case, or a mare, but for a riding horse who can't be bred from a trainer/owner I'd met in person who showed proof the papers existed, maybe if it were a really good horse.

Now, imported Warmbloods are supposed to have their European passport at minimum. Why should I take the trainer's word for it with no tattoo, no brand, apparently no microchip? If I buy a horse off the track, it damn well better be the horse they claim it is, and there are ways to check. How is buying a horse stated to be an import (not 'thought to be', but 'is imported') different?

halo
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:14 PM
I think they are talking about the situation where the horse never actually raced. I suppose someone could take a non-race-horse non-TB to the track and sell it as a TB without papers but for $1000, how big a deal would it be? But technically, I guess S.A. is correct.

Finger Lakes is not exactly a hotbed of unraced talent. Most of the horses there already have been racing. Finger Lakes is pretty much the bottom of the line for these horses. So there will be very very few horses there not tattooed. And even if they arent, there will be documentation given to the stable gate as to who the horse is, where they came from, the trainer's name and their name. If someone did indeed buy an untattooed horse from the track, they can get duplicate papers from the jockey club. And if they can't get information on who the horse is, then they are no better off than the OP, who can't verify who that horse is either.

S1969
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:31 PM
And if they can't get information on who the horse is, then they are no better off than the OP, who can't verify who that horse is either.

Except they have a whole lot more $$ in their pocket. ;)

I have my OTTB's JC papers (5 different owners); I have my paint's papers (3 owners); I don't have my rescue mini's papers but I have her full registered name and breeder's information. None of them are worth much money (or any), but I know exactly how old they are and where they came from. I can match the whorls on my horse to the whorls on their papers and be sure it's the same horse.

It's not very hard to keep track of registration papers or get a duplicate copy - if they are actually registered.

Even if the horse is NOT registered (which would seem to be a lie from the trainer in this case), I would still want to know its breeding, and at this price - to verify the breeding. Just because. No explanation needed, or need to justify the price with the papers or anything else. The OP is entirely justified in simply wanting to know the breeding, age, markings, and history of this horse.

I can only assume that the trainer in this case has some strange (or nefarious) motive for not giving up the documents, OR at least the provenance/history of this horse. There is no way to justify the lack of information except to assume it is to cover up something.

sketcher
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:40 PM
Really?
Please explain your logic?

It's such a ridiculous comparison I wouldn't waste my time.

supershorty628
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:50 PM
I have my OTTB's JC papers (5 different owners); I have my paint's papers (3 owners); I don't have my rescue mini's papers but I have her full registered name and breeder's information. None of them are worth much money (or any), but I know exactly how old they are and where they came from. I can match the whorls on my horse to the whorls on their papers and be sure it's the same horse.


Slightly off topic, but I never got my [OT?]TB's papers... I had no idea what her Jockey Club registered name was until Practical Horseman ran an article on her and someone wrote in having purchased her off the track. She's not tattooed, but is registered. Maybe I can get her papers through the JC somehow? I looked up her breeding, but it would still be interesting..

Trevelyan96
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:54 PM
The long and short of it is the OP willing to pay almost 6 figures for a horse that she seems to like but really has 'no' history. Only 1 year show record, no papers, no passport. Basically, no proof that the horse is who/what they say he is.

I think that's a huge gamble to take. Especially with the trainer's attitude towards the OP's very legitimate questions, considering the price tag.

I might be inclined to take that gamble on a $10K horse, but not one in the high 5 figures unless I was absolutely in love with the horse, and he vetted perfectly. Even then, OP could probably find the same horse for $25K.

Drvmb1ggl3
Apr. 2, 2012, 08:04 PM
Slightly off topic, but I never got my [OT?]TB's papers... I had no idea what her Jockey Club registered name was until Practical Horseman ran an article on her and someone wrote in having purchased her off the track. She's not tattooed, but is registered. Maybe I can get her papers through the JC somehow? I looked up her breeding, but it would still be interesting..

http://www.jockeyclub.com/registry.asp?section=3#nine

Drvmb1ggl3
Apr. 2, 2012, 08:12 PM
Are papers really so unimportant in Hunterland? I just find it bizarre that you can buy a $500 QH off of some dude living in a trailer and more often than not they can supply you with the horse's registration papers.
But a horse is imported, at significant expense, and then probably significant training fees following that, and sold for a significant sum of money, and nobody gives a fiddlers who the horse is and who he is by and out of?
I understand the whole "you can't ride the papers" thing (though I think it's incredibly short sighted, you might want another just like him... knowing who he is and where he came from would help you find another), but it strikes me as real odd that so many of these imported WBs are sold and resold without their passports/papers, and they are sold to people with buckets of money... who would seem like the kind of people that would like documentation.
Odd.

Long Spot
Apr. 2, 2012, 08:19 PM
No, because the first thing you do with an OTTB (as in one who has raced) is flip their lip and check the tattoo against their papers. In thirty seconds I know exactly who the horse is. If the trainer won't hand over the papers, I personally won't touch them. For a gelding I just want them because they're his, for a mare one who can't be bred for a JC foal isn't worth anything to me. (Also, for Thoroughbreds, it spells out on the papers "Certificate to be preserved and transferred to purchaser gratis if this horse is sold. Possession and presentation of certificate is a requirement to race or breed the horse it identifies." The papers belong to the horse, not the owner.) Lucky's papers have his foal certificate, his name registration stapled to the front, the signatures of owners/agents, record of races won signed by the track secretaries, and his bleeder paper stapled to the back. He also has DNA on file, and yes, when he came off the trailer, I checked the tattoo against the papers.

Now, I might consider buying a known OTTB from someone who wanted to keep the papers and turn them in as dead, IF it was a gelding, and I had a photocopy with the tattoo to double-check. I wouldn't buy sight-unseen in that case, or a mare, but for a riding horse who can't be bred from a trainer/owner I'd met in person who showed proof the papers existed, maybe if it were a really good horse.

Now, imported Warmbloods are supposed to have their European passport at minimum. Why should I take the trainer's word for it with no tattoo, no brand, apparently no microchip? If I buy a horse off the track, it damn well better be the horse they claim it is, and there are ways to check. How is buying a horse stated to be an import (not 'thought to be', but 'is imported') different?

How dare you make sense, little missy!

Linny
Apr. 2, 2012, 08:20 PM
I'm a little surprised at your position.
You regularly push OTTB's from fingerlakes yet many of those do not come with papers.
In the future before buying an OTTB from fingerlakes or an OTTB rescue should I consider that the horse could be stolen or advertised as a TB when it really isn't?
Perhaps no one should buy OTTB's with all the possibilities for fraud ??
You can't have it one way for horses you push and then complain about H/J sales of show horses.

First, "a TB from the track" is not a status item in the sense that an "imported Dutch WB" is. Second, if the horse is tatooed you can look him up, go online and verify his entire race record in 5 minutes. Third, some horses are in fact sold off the track "without pedigree" so that they will never be returned to the track. It's fairly common. (I will admit that I am in favor of the JC recognizing "non racing" papers so horses may go with papers and still be permanently unable to race.) If a horse is tatooed and being sold out of a backstretch stall, its pretty much a TB. Get his name and you can verify from the horse ID office at the track that he is exactly who the trainer claims. As far as a "rescue" there is a big gap between a rescue and a horse being sold for nearly 6 figuresin terms of the expectation of documentary evidence of his past.

Race records are easy to access. If you have an EquineLine account you can get online video of many races run in the last 2 or 3 years. Many tracks offer online video. Since horses are ID'd against JC papers every time they race. Verifying the identity of an OTTB is like taking candy from a baby. If you get an account at Race Replays you can see thousands of races and verify who's who. It's not like folks are sneaking Dutch WB's into Finger Lakes or Charles Town to sell them as OTTB's!

My biggest issue with the OP's situation is that everything seemed to be fine until she started asking questions about the horse's past. It's like an art dealer getting shady when a buyer brings up provenance on a piece of art.

DoubleTwistedWire
Apr. 2, 2012, 08:49 PM
An OTTB, bought straight from the track, is essentially a blank slate. You get the horse you see in front of you, without any claims of specialized skills beyond being able to run around an oval. You're taking your $2K and taking a chance on it, maybe knowing a bit about the pedigree (easily searched and ID'd) to guide you.

With the horse in the OPs case, regardless of claims made to breed or importing, a significant chunk of that cost must be related to some kind of specialized skill and performance, in whatever division they're hoping to compete in. With such a minimal show record, most of it under the OP themself, I'd be really, really leery of taking that risk, unless that show record had some big championship ribbons attached to it.

That said, if the trainer's attitude when questioned about any kind of paperwork on the horse were different, it might not have raised as much of a red flag. A horse has one really good show year, and the value can increase exponentially. But the attitude of the trainer would make me think I'm not being presented with what they're telling me they're selling me.

CBoylen
Apr. 2, 2012, 08:49 PM
Color me confused, but I cannot imagine how a seller can justify a 6 figure price tag for a horse with no show record. Nor can I imagine how a buyer lets herself get talked into paying 6 figures for a horse with no show record - especially one with no papers and no breeding value). :confused:
She said high five figures. So, say we're talking about an 85k horse. That's either a nice prospect with the potential to be worth more later when the show record is added, or a mediocre show horse. It's not the worldbeater people are clearly expecting here. I'd be way more suspicious of a seller claiming a fantastic record for a horse in that range than one without.
In this case all the poster said was that the horse only has a show record from last year. So do many imports, and many pregreen horses. So do some horses who have shown only at schooling shows until someone discovered them, or horses who have changed disciplines. Regardless, there wasn't any information given on this record in the past year. It could have shown 34 times and been champion every time out. Who knows. But it was enough of a record for the poster to schedule the vetting based upon her experience with the horse.


Without that, all you have is some yahoo telling you this gelding is imported and wonderful and worth high 5 figures, when in reality he could have picked him up for $300 at New Holland the previous year. Because theres no documentation.

This is why we have registration papers. Because without them, especially with a non tattooed or chipped gelding, you have a grade gelding. It could be a $75,000 grade gelding, but a grade gelding just the same. You might as well have a mustang.
So? If he's a 75k horse due to his quality, then he's a 75k horse. Quality. Not brand, breed, amount of money put into them, place of origin, names on paperwork. Quality is what determines the price of a horse. This poster has had six months to determine the horse's quality. It's either worth the asking price or it is not.

Summit Springs Farm
Apr. 2, 2012, 08:50 PM
Ok, really? Few OTTB's sell for alittle less than six figures...

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:00 PM
So? If he's a 75k horse due to his quality, then he's a 75k horse. Quality. Not brand, breed, amount of money put into them, place of origin, names on paperwork. Quality is what determines the price of a horse. This poster has had six months to determine the horse's quality. It's either worth the asking price or it is not.


And if he is "imported" then is it really so bloody hard to have his paper work? That's the point. It shouldn't be a big deal.....and one shouldn't even have to ask for his passport. It should be produced without question..

75K is still a lot of money. And if I really like the horse...I want to know where he came from....perhaps I will go and import a younger sibling etc. Of course that may be why they "lost" the papers so that their source of the horse is not made known.


This is NOT common practice in most other disciplines. Not sure why those in the hunters are putting up with it. I don't ride the papers in eventing either....but I damn well expect them to go with a horse that I buy. And I've yet had one sold to me that didn't come with their papers or passport.

Lulu
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:03 PM
This poster has had six months to determine the horse's quality. It's either worth the asking price or it is not.

Totally agreed. Furthermore, the skewering of the trainer is unfounded. There are many fabulous, un-papered horses out there competing at the highest level... and alas, high five-figures is not upper brackets. Please have some consideration for people trying to make a living selling horses. Not everyone is trying to swindle their clients.

CBoylen
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:09 PM
And if he is "imported" then is it really so bloody hard to have his paper work? That's the point. It shouldn't be a big deal.....and one shouldn't even have to ask for his passport. It should be produced without question..
If the person that imported him tossed it in the trash, and you're not that person? Then yes, it's bloody hard.

2bayboys
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:18 PM
OK, so 85K will get you a mediocre horse and a horse is worth whatever it's worth regardless of the breed, where it came from, etc. I understand all that ;)

What I don't understand is how trainers and agents who are responsible for helping clients spend all that money are apparently not responsible enough to keep track of a horse's paperwork. Seriously, you get the passport, registration, vet records and you put it in a file folder and it goes in the office. Put a little sticky label on it with horse's name on it. Every time horse gets a shot, has his teeth floated, whatever, put the invoice in the file folder. You don't even have to organize the paperwork, just throw it in the folder with the right horse's name on the little sticky label.

Trainers want to be considered professional, so act like professionals.

halo
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:21 PM
She said high five figures. So, say we're talking about an 85k horse. That's either a nice prospect with the potential to be worth more later when the show record is added, or a mediocre show horse. It's not the worldbeater people are clearly expecting here. I'd be way more suspicious of a seller claiming a fantastic record for a horse in that range than one without.
In this case all the poster said was that the horse only has a show record from last year. So do many imports, and many pregreen horses. So do some horses who have shown only at schooling shows until someone discovered them, or horses who have changed disciplines. Regardless, there wasn't any information given on this record in the past year. It could have shown 34 times and been champion every time out. Who knows. But it was enough of a record for the poster to schedule the vetting based upon her experience with the horse.


So? If he's a 75k horse due to his quality, then he's a 75k horse. Quality. Not brand, breed, amount of money put into them, place of origin, names on paperwork. Quality is what determines the price of a horse. This poster has had six months to determine the horse's quality. It's either worth the asking price or it is not.

Its not about breed, amount of money, place of origin, names on paperwork. Its about identification. Its about being able to say this is an 8 year old bay gelding, as per the identification on his papers. Its about being able to trace from where he came. He didnt just drop out of the sky. How would anyone know if he were worth $75,000 with no history. How would anyone know he's 8 years old. He could be 18 years old. He has no history. There is no horse anywhere worth that kind of money with no history. They are selling him with no verification of any sort that he is as advertised.

CBoylen
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:27 PM
How would anyone know if he were worth $75,000 with no history. How would anyone know he's 8 years old. He could be 18 years old.
I don't know, maybe by looking at him, watching him go, and leasing and riding him for six months? And opening his mouth? She said he was dapple grey, which makes it awfully hard to fudge the age by much.

bornfreenowexpensive
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:29 PM
If the person that imported him tossed it in the trash, and you're not that person? Then yes, it's bloody hard.

And why would someone do that? That's my point....lots of people import horses...and do not throw them out. You don't throw their papers away because MOST buyers expect their papers to go with the horse. Common sense says you don't throw them out just like you don't throw out any other records. hell...I have papers on my dog that I will never need or use (nor do I expect to sell him) but they are in a file for him with his other records. Given to me by his former owner (who was his 3rd owner).

As I said....in any other sale, the papers would be expected to go with the horse. To make such a request is just not that big of a deal....and selling a horse for 75K....I would make an effort to find them and not put down a potential buyer for asking for them.

The response should have been we lost them or didn't get them when we bought the horse but we are happy to ask and see if they can be found or replaced for you. Any other response is going to raise red flags to me...and most buyers. And most sellers should know this and NOT toss the papers.

ETA: lack of papers wouldn't kill a deal for me on a gelding (or mare)....but it is the response by the trainer in trying to make the OP feel stupid for asking for them that raises red flags. I've bought horses without papers...who didn't have papers. I have a 4 year old filly without them....who I bought from a friend who bred her. The concerning thing her is the attitude give the OP when she asked a legit question.

toomanyponies
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:53 PM
The reason passports and papers for imported hunters get misplaced is simply because they are not required for the horse to do the job it is going to do. Same reason you frequently dont get your hunter pony's welsh or half-welsh papers. You dont need it to go show at a USEF show. Its a simple as that.

What you do need are your coggins, and your measurement card (in many cases). The passport gets handed to the quarantine manager with the import and shipping papers - then it goes to the shipper who brings it to the barn and hands the whole thing to a manager or groom, who puts it in a tack trunk. That's it - you never need any of those papers again to get a USEF horse number. Horse gets USEF #, youre off to the races, so to speak. Horse owner/importer shows horse, horse gets sold, new owner gets needed USEF info to show, and voila, no more Euro papers/passport.

Believe me, I breed, and I would love to have one US registry system that tracked breeding. I think a good start would be to implement a significant price differential between registering with USEF and providing papers and not. That would at least provide the person doing the initial registration with the incentive to complete the breeding information section. How about an even bigger discount for providing a copy of the original Euro papers or American registry papers? Just sayin - its all about the carrot and the stick. . .

alto
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:57 PM
I don't know, maybe by looking at him, watching him go, and leasing and riding him for six months? And opening his mouth? She said he was dapple grey, which makes it awfully hard to fudge the age by much.

Really :eek:
- he could be 6-8 or 12-14 ... & I suspect if the vet were to suggest the latter age bracket, there would be a reason why his teeth look older than he is.

And this is not an unknown grade horse, it is an "imported Dutch Warmblood", to make that sort of claim, there must be some sort of actual evidence ...
if not, well then I own an imported GRP who was a top rated FEI pony and jumped 4 feet with a 10 yr old rider ...
anyone want to purchase him for the paltry sum of a mere 6 figures???

halo
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:00 PM
Totally agreed. Furthermore, the skewering of the trainer is unfounded. There are many fabulous, un-papered horses out there competing at the highest level... and alas, high five-figures is not upper brackets. Please have some consideration for people trying to make a living selling horses. Not everyone is trying to swindle their clients.

I believe you just made everyones point. Its one thing to have to have an unpapered horse competing at the highest level, no problem with that horse being expensive. Its a whole nuther beast if we're talking about an unpaper, unverified horse hacking around with no show record.

And yes, at $75,000 for an unshown, unpapered horse, that is definitely a swindle.

Carol Ames
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:07 PM
There may be no papers;
B (http://www.kmart.com/shc/s/v_10151_10104_Pet%20Supplies?sbf=Brand&sbv=Best+Pet+Health)
I bought a mare like that; it did not bother me:no:, but, her next owner, the buyer, wanted to;) breed her on retirement, and, with no papers it was not possible;:no: I doubt that she was ever inspected:no: in the NED;:no: she was small ,barely 16 hands, with a BI G head; and an even bigger heart:cool:; she foxhunted for the first time as a staff horse, whipper in; then the next day went in the field with the daughter, 13 years old; She was "ganz brav" a breeder told me ;Unfortunately, as a grade mare she could not be bred; except with a stallion , not a very popular one for them selves; with a gelding, I would not worry about papers as long as you get a bill of sale, naming the owner; if, they try to give you a run around, walk; I had to do that over an Irish bred gelding;

Madison
Apr. 2, 2012, 10:14 PM
i have no information about him other than word of mouth. And he had no show record prior to this past year.
literally...any paperwork verifying his past (age, anything!) would help me just feel better. I am pretty certain I am being taken taken advantage of (and other professionals i have consulted with have remarked "do they think you are stupid?"). That part-dealing with the trainer situation-will be the next challenge.
Would this horse be worth less if they can't verify where he came from or breed/bloodlines? somebody recently told me that all imported horses from Europe who are older than 5 are either branded or have a microchip. i have never heard of that--does anyone know if that's accurate?
Thank you so much for your responses. I'm a mess. I absolutely adore this horse and have a bad feeling about the way things are proceeding,

When you made an offer on this horse, did you ask to see the papers or make the offer contingent on any documentation? Most likely, no, because most likely, the documentation question is an afterthought. If you love the horse and you thought his quality and performance justified the purchase price to begin with, the lack of documentation, particularly for a gelding, would not change my mind. Your vet can verify the age, which to me is the most important part in this equation. If he's the age the trainer said he was, that should put your mind at ease. Also, papers DO get lost easily - my mare has Dutch papers, but the shipper lost them and I never knew they existed til much later when I wanted to breed her and I happened to both email the breeder and call the KWPN office. The KWPN people told me they had a file on my mare, and the breeder emailed back and said "don't you have her papers??". So, a few phone calls or emails might also put your mind at ease. This does not seem like the kind of issue that would reopen price negotiations, unless there is something you find in the vetting. If I were you, I'd find a time to talk to the trainer and ask why your request, which you didn't think was a big deal, seemed to upset them and see what they say - maybe they got defensive because they thought you were trying to renegotiate price, or maybe there is another explanation or misunderstanding. If you love the horse and have been riding him for 6 months, it is worth investigating further.

Blugal
Apr. 3, 2012, 12:41 AM
An interesting case (fairly local to me) (news story) (http://www.bclocalnews.com/news/138072348.html) (full case) (http://canlii.ca/t/fqcq5) where a horse had a hind suspensory injury which was disclosed to the first give-away home. The judge found that the 2nd give-away home knew about it as well. But the 2nd give-away home did not see fit to inform the potential buyer of this when the horse was advertised as a show horse that was sound for dressage. The buyer did a fairly normal and thorough vet check to the tune of over $1,000; horse passed; horse was purchased. Not long after, the horse was in full training and (surprise!) went lame.

The buyer found out about the horse's previous injury from the original owner when the buyer contacted her through the breed registry to obtain his papers.

The buyer was awarded the full amount available to her in small claims court ($25,000) for: the purchase price, the vet check, the interest on her credit line, and the cost of board and transport.

Madeline
Apr. 3, 2012, 12:45 AM
I'm a little surprised at your position.
You regularly push OTTB's from fingerlakes yet many of those do not come with papers.
In the future before buying an OTTB from fingerlakes or an OTTB rescue should I consider that the horse could be stolen or advertised as a TB when it really isn't?
Perhaps no one should buy OTTB's with all the possibilities for fraud ??
You can't have it one way for horses you push and then complain about H/J sales of show horses.

Well, with a TB off the track you have a tattoo, so you know the age, the breeding, the real name. A little research through equibase will give you a race record. If he's been running recently, you have a pretty good idea that the owner is who you think it is. No papers, no problem. You have the information.

bumknees
Apr. 3, 2012, 06:11 AM
I've been following this for a bit.
ome thoughts that have been brought up by several other posters.

Someone brought up why would buyers now wonder about papework now after 6mth of leasing? Well leasing is a whole other thing than owning Ie: Do you ask your landlord to see the deed of the property that you are renting <though with some it may not be a bad idea>?If it were me I am the leaser I am not entitled to know about the paperwork that came /comes with the horse I am leasing. I am allowed to know what the owner/trainer presents. As the buyer potential owner of said animal If I ask about the paperwork I should be able to at least see it with out getting the wiggly eye from the seller/onwer. I shold be able to ask about it with out getting an attitude. And at the price the seller is asking for that horse yeah I would want something that shows even if a gelding that is the horse I am buying. And yes I have seen papers shift from one horse to another.. MMM bay gelding 5 paper's going to bay gelding who may or may not be with in a few years of 7 or 8 may or may not be or the same breed....

I do agree that a national system would be wonderful not nais but something...

At high 5 figures that horse had better have some show history. If Im going to spend that much .. Wait let me repharase that If Im gong to attempt to justify that amount to my dh it had better have some wiz bang wholy smokes it has been winning, and will haul this will no longer bounce butt all over the ring safely up and down the east coast, and manage not to go bankrupt in the process show record... Oh yeah and balance my bank book and teach me how to dance as well.
Sorry but the idea of it not having a show record is a bit eletiest and we in h/j land wonder why we have the rep of being prinesses. This is why... Time to get our heads out of several levels of many things. Animals high 3 figures with out show records ok yea fine mid 4's yeah ok high 5's in the words of Fred Sanford " its the bigg one Im comming " ... Sorry mmm no.

For the trainer/seller/agent/owner to balk when asked should be able to jstify why th ebalk just as they would expect any other seller to. The buyer shold not be seeking a new trainer just because they have the ''nerve'' to ask. the trainer however has a lot of nerve to expect client to remain silent they are clients not prisnors the client is not in jail they can ask questions ans have the responsibility to. And when not given the aswer they like to repeat the question untl a satafactory answer is given. The trainer/ owner should have given satasfactory answer to begin with and not shuffeled it off onto someone else to begin with.

I wonder if trainer/seller has not necessarly not contacted the person who may or may not have imported said horse and said ''hey if susie client calls you about said horse I have for sale calls you and asks..." Hopefully importer has more ethics than that kwim but this is the horse business where ethics have to be in question about more than less of those in it.

There are just so may things wrong with this transactation that even if it were not a horse the client and contractor (trainer/seller) would have called the transaction off a long time ago. Would they still have a relationship that is for them to decide. BUt if it were me no I as client I would just leave after finding new trainer without current trainer knowing.

DeeThbd
Apr. 3, 2012, 06:57 AM
Well, with a TB off the track you have a tattoo, so you know the age, the breeding, the real name. A little research through equibase will give you a race record. If he's been running recently, you have a pretty good idea that the owner is who you think it is. No papers, no problem. You have the information.

Plus if the horse has been running or even has published works, you have information where you can see the patterns in the horse's training and racing schedule...does the horse race every two weeks consistently? (which indicates a certain level of soundness)...how often has it worked? Looking at my middle gelding's race record - in the second year of his career there is a three month gap that isn't a winter layoff...so that tells me either he got hurt or had something done. OP only has one year of info (does she actually know where the gelding showed/how he placed?) to go by. Is that enough to go on? Those of you who show know the answer to that.
For that kind of money? I'd want some kind of documentation to at least verify age. I like to know breeding because it can tell me about trends in long-term soundness (am a TB lover :winkgrin:) but the age aspect is important IMHO.
Dee

Pennywell Bay
Apr. 3, 2012, 07:22 AM
I'll give my opinion....

If he vets out sound and the vet confirms the age, I don't think the papers are a big deal. But, TO ME, papers are NOT a big deal (obviously to some they are).

Papers can get lost. Unfortunately, some people are not meticulous in their record keeping etc. (Hey- I just lost my coggins b/c I am traveling back and forth from Indy to PA, not the same but it happens)

I know that it is important to some of you. I don't take that away from anyone. To me, it is about what the horse does/can do, and the vet confirms age/soundness.

I have sold 2 lovely geldings, both doing well, that their mother has no papers (I bought her for the foal by her side, package deal, it worked out SCORE!! Like the foal so much I bred another to keep, someone wanted him so I made out BIG). Their father is fairly popular (I can produce the breeding certs etc). Neither of the buyers cared. Now I have the full sister-now 4, she is just as lovely. Someone was interested in buying her (for a good 5 figure price) and I explained she had no papers. Their response was they saw how she was going and wanted her. I did not sell her but sometimes, people get hung up on papers.

I totally get both sides of the fence. Breeders/investors etc want to know bloodlines vs you can't ride papers.

As a buyer, you can go with your gut. You can't breed a gelding anyway, you like him, you've ridden him for 6 months. If the vet gives a green light, buy him if it sits right w/ you.

If it does not sit right, maybe you can spend the next 6 months trying to find just as good of a fit. ?

Good luck w/ either decision.

Dewey
Apr. 3, 2012, 07:30 AM
Pennywell, your situation is not quite the same. As I understand it, the horses you sold were not registered, but you had breeding certificates for them and had trained them from the beginning. Is that correct? The buyers knew the horses' history.

The OP in this case is being asked to shell out quite a lot of money for a horse that may or may not be what the seller claims he is. I certainly understand that the OP knows the horse well and wants him (which is the most important thing), but I do feel that her concerns about possibly being fleeced are warranted.

Jsalem
Apr. 3, 2012, 07:44 AM
High five figures for a gelding with no registration papers or passport is not at all unusual-- Provided the horse's "story" is true. You know how every sales horse has a "story"? (Horse was imported by a BNT as a project; Horse belonged to a family and dad lost his job; Horse belonged to a kid who went to college). IME, the stories are sometimes true and sometimes a complete fabrication to cover up the real reason for the horse changing zip codes.

I think it comes down to whether your trainers are to be trusted. You have been able to lease the horse for 6 months. That's a huge plus. The horse could be worth that amount as a prospect. But what would be troubling to me is if they are claiming that he is an import (and thus more valuable) and can provide no proof or that he has show experience and his price is a reflection of this experience. I ALWAYS check that out. Seller says, "Horse has done the Juniors". I look to see who was in the irons, how competitive he was, how current is the record, were there any disasters or long gaps.

Are your trainers trust worthy? Because they're asking you to trust his "story" and can provide no backup.

ShaSamour
Apr. 3, 2012, 07:54 AM
I don't have papers for either of my geldings.

My oldster was given to me by his owner, out of the field. The owner conveniently couldn't even remember the horse's name, just that he was 19 years old and had been an upper level jumper. And he had had a colic surgery. I was able to piece together a good bit, based on digging through USEF records and talking to people who knew the horse from its youth. The horse has actually had 3 colic surgeries and was retired on loss of use. Now I understand why the owner had been less than forthcoming. I never planned on showing him in jumpers, let alone at upper levels, so it was no big deal to me. But it's still cool to know what I have.

My younger horse was represented by his past owner to be a Swedish warmblood, but they had no evidence. They were told he was Swedish by the horse dealer that they bought him from. They were also told he was 4 years old at the time they purchased him. And of course, there were no papers, no show record, no brand, nothing. When they vetted him, their own vet said the horse was more like 6 or 7 years old. When the horse was sold on to me, the trainer representing him said that she thought the horse was probably a WB cross, type unknown, and represented him as such, and that he was now 10 years old (4+6). When I vetted him, my vet said he was more like somewhere in his early teens. His show record was limited to the prior six months, where he had been champion or reserve in good company at 2'6" at just about every show he had done.

Did I really care that his parentage was, essentially, unknown? Not really. Did I really care that he was three years older than advertised? Not really. Did I care that he was sound for what I wanted to use him for, and had something of a show record to prove it? Did I care that we really clicked and he was a good match for me? Absolutely. I was buying the horse in front of me.

Now neither of these horses cost much (or anything). But at least my younger gelding had a documented show record such that I could easily justify his price.

If I had a trainer represent to me that the $75K horse I was considering had a show record to justify his price, I'd want to see it. And if they were representing that he was a particular breed, absent a brand, I'd like to see some proof beyond "the prior owner told me so". I'd just like some provenance. Of course, I'll never be in the position to buy a $75K horse...

DLee
Apr. 3, 2012, 07:59 AM
This is an interesting discussion and I have a question... having never chipped a horse, what information is on a chip?

foursocks
Apr. 3, 2012, 08:23 AM
Exactly what Jsalem said- the price may not be high for this context (no idea since we don't know what divisions the horse has been doing, where, or how well it has been doing), and papers really aren't very important for most people so long as the horse does the job. Breed is unimportant when you have all of the ingredients for winning (or whatever one's priority is), in place.

However, if your trainer is acting squirrely about the lack of information and it is making you suspicious, that is different. You (OP) may be wrong and the suspicions may be unfounded. But if you are right to be suspicious there may be a lot of stuff underneath this that you wont like.

It's a bit of a gamble, and only you can decide if you want to go ahead and vet- but if you do simply make sure it is thorough. Also, perhaps do a comparison of similar horse values in your area, doing what your horse is doing and placing at the same levels. If he is sound, the vet says he is the right age, and you believe he can get you where you want to go, he still should not be hugely more expensive than other horses at his level of experience/age/showing in his division.

2tempe
Apr. 3, 2012, 08:28 AM
This is an interesting discussion and I have a question... having never chipped a horse, what information is on a chip?

The info on the chip is actually a number. If you microchip your horse, you also then record your info and the horse's info in an equine database. http://www.microchipidequine.com/register.html

Horse info is basically name, date of birth, breed registry, markings and color
Then there is owner info, who did the chip, etc.

trubandloki
Apr. 3, 2012, 08:36 AM
So? If he's a 75k horse due to his quality, then he's a 75k horse. Quality. Not brand, breed, amount of money put into them, place of origin, names on paperwork. Quality is what determines the price of a horse. This poster has had six months to determine the horse's quality. It's either worth the asking price or it is not.
This.

DeeThbd
Apr. 3, 2012, 08:43 AM
So? If he's a 75k horse due to his quality, then he's a 75k horse. Quality. Not brand, breed, amount of money put into them, place of origin, names on paperwork. Quality is what determines the price of a horse. This poster has had six months to determine the horse's quality. It's either worth the asking price or it is not.


This.

Isn't age a consideration? Would you honestly pay the same amount for an 8 yr old as a 15 year old? The horse might be worth it on a performance level, but if you are spending $75K (or more), the investment factor would likely kick in - because a 15 yo will likely have more wear and tear, soundness issues and insurability issues than an 8yo.
Dee

dodedo
Apr. 3, 2012, 08:47 AM
Is there anything besides breed that you can tell from a brand on a warmblood? Example: warmblood- hannovarian no papers, same story...lost, yada yada. Brand is the hannovarian "H" and there is a 38 under it. On his left hip, but low. told he was foaled in Belgium. Lovely horse.
I am sure there is a story behind this one but no way to know unless someone here knows. Supposedly imported 5-6 yrs ago so is there a chance of a chip? I am pretty sure there was alot of history omitted by the sellers agent but we got way more than we paid for as far as what this one has returned to us so it isn't a big deal, just curious about his history. The name Brems was told to us.....
I was given a copy of some paper that was a fax copy and shows breeding but can't find anything at all when I try to look up info but don't really know how or where to look.

morganpony86
Apr. 3, 2012, 08:54 AM
I agree that if you think the horse is worth the price, and you want said horse, then you can pay it. The worth of papers is mostly in the eye of the beholder. I personally would not purchase a horse without papers, but I grew up in a breed-oriented show arena, where papers mattered a lot.

But, I do agree with the below quotes that the sellers are being sketchy. I would run from this situation, no matter how much I loved the horse. Who knows what else they're hiding from you.


To be honest, I would be leery of a trainer who gets tetchy about a client trying to do her homework before writing a five-figure check.



Now, the behavior of the trainers involved would have me seriously questioning their ethics and what they are trying to pull off. I would also worry about what sort of management the horse has been getting, since they want to sell it to you for a pretty penny.


That little voice in your head? Listen to it.

:yes::yes::yes::yes:




You may not get papers with an OTTB... but you will have a tatoo in which you can at least identify the horse. Even if you do not care what the horse's registered name or breeding is... at a glance at the first letter of the tatoo, you can at least conclusively verify age.

I bought an OTTB straight from the track. No tattoo, because he never raced. So not always true.
I bought him with his Jockey Club papers, though, because I asked for them.

wcporter
Apr. 3, 2012, 09:14 AM
:rolleyes:

Fergodsakes some of you that are rambling on about riding papers or whatever...

Its not about the PAPERS. Its that the "papers" can confirm she is purchasing the horse she thinks (hopes) she is.

Right now, unless she does some digging and researching, she would be buying a horse with less than a year of known history. For $75K!!! Maybe she's related to Bill Gates and that's no big deal.

BUT! If this same chic had instead come on here and told her story after the fact: "I bought an "imported" horse for a lot of money after I had leased him for only six months and didn't know his past and didn't have any documentation and my trainer gave me a hard time for asking so I just bought him anyway b/c I looovveed hieem and now the horse is lame and I found out yesterday from another trainer that said horse had an injury two years ago that wasn't disclosed and now I dont know what to do...blah blah blah..." Those of you who are preaching about who caaaares about the papers, would be ripping her a new one and calling her an idiot and yelling, that's the risk you take for being naive.

Tell me I'm wrong.

trubandloki
Apr. 3, 2012, 09:22 AM
You are wrong.

She is purchasing a horse that does what she wants it to do.

It has nothing to do with Papers or papers. It does not have to have a show record. It does not have to be a certain age (with in reason, all which the vet can confirm). It does not have to be a certain breed.

All that matters is does the horse do what she wants it to do at the level she wants to do it and she thinks the horse is worth the price tag.

Note - I think some of the actions that have been stated this trainer/seller are doing do sound shady to me. But that is not part of the debate with the people who insist no horse is worth this price with out a boat load of documentation to go along with it.

DLee
Apr. 3, 2012, 09:22 AM
The info on the chip is actually a number. If you microchip your horse, you also then record your info and the horse's info in an equine database. http://www.microchipidequine.com/register.html

Horse info is basically name, date of birth, breed registry, markings and color
Then there is owner info, who did the chip, etc.

Thank you!

wcporter
Apr. 3, 2012, 09:36 AM
You are wrong.


I think you just indirectly proved my point.

If most of you COTHers weren't on the debate team in high school, you should have been.

TalkIsCheap
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:00 AM
It would be nice if the OP came on and gave us a rough idea of what Zone she was in & what she plans to show this gelding in...it would give us an idea if the price tag is reasonable.

And any hints on what the gelding was showing & placing in last year would be helpful. Tooling around in Opportunity Modified Hunter is not the same thing as Pre-Green or Medals, for example...but one could still say "I had great ribbons at XYZ show!"

There is a HUGE difference in Zone shows, types of shows, the division she wants to show in and the quality of show management & course set up.

JHMO

findeight
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:01 AM
We only have the information filterered thru the OPs viewpoint, only have her interpretation of trainers attitude and her recollection of what was said. Then we filter again based on our own experiences and, sometimes, assumptions. And we don't even know the price range-"High" 5 figures could be 85k or, to some people, it's 50k and they exaggerate, especially on the web.

I have not been willing to skewer the trainer based on that either. If OP could get back on and provide just a bit more info? In a real general way without getting too specific or naming names? It would be nice.

Along those lines, over the years I have had 2 close friends who bought horses with holes in their backstory for high prices, got protested somewhere along the line and found out the hard way why the backstory was sketchy.

It does not hurt at all to ask the seller and expect an answer...and sometimes that answer is "we don't know" or "we believe it to be...".

Oh, I have only had papers on mine if they were breed showing, only had ONE of 5 or 6 Hunters with papers-but I knew the backstory and simply made a few inquiries. Got JC papers on my good mare...that everybody assumed as Dutch so go figure. I didn't care anyway, I bought the jump and tolerent attitude.

IMO OP should do the same and not be in a big hurry to scub the deal on a horse that seems to suit her and sink her relationship with trainer/seller. YET anyway.

danceronice
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:08 AM
.

I think it comes down to whether your trainers are to be trusted. You have been able to lease the horse for 6 months. That's a huge plus. The horse could be worth that amount as a prospect. But what would be troubling to me is if they are claiming that he is an import (and thus more valuable) and can provide no proof or that he has show experience and his price is a reflection of this experience. I ALWAYS check that out. Seller says, "Horse has done the Juniors". I look to see who was in the irons, how competitive he was, how current is the record, were there any disasters or long gaps.

Are your trainers trust worthy? Because they're asking you to trust his "story" and can provide no backup.

This. Especially troubling is that they become tetchy and evasive when questioned about what happened to the papers and contacting previous owners. They're not only saying the papers are lost, they're saying "How dare you not take my word at complete 100% face value? And in any case it's none of your business, do you want the horse or not?" That's like buying a car without previous registration or VIN, or being expected to look through a house, see it superficially looks good, and pay the asking price right there.

It's not even really about the papers, it's about the seller/agent's attitude when questioned on them. I might disagree with withholding a TB's papers and might pass on an otherwise-good horse because of that, but it's not like saying "Here is this unmarked, unbranded, unchipped horse with a limited show record under this name that was totally imported and is totally registered and we just lost all evidence to back up that claim. Why on EARTH would you have a problem with paying what a horse with all the verification would command?"

Lucassb
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:12 AM
:rolleyes:

Fergodsakes some of you that are rambling on about riding papers or whatever...

Its not about the PAPERS. Its that the "papers" can confirm she is purchasing the horse she thinks (hopes) she is.

Right now, unless she does some digging and researching, she would be buying a horse with less than a year of known history. For $75K!!! Maybe she's related to Bill Gates and that's no big deal.

BUT! If this same chic had instead come on here and told her story after the fact: "I bought an "imported" horse for a lot of money after I had leased him for only six months and didn't know his past and didn't have any documentation and my trainer gave me a hard time for asking so I just bought him anyway b/c I looovveed hieem and now the horse is lame and I found out yesterday from another trainer that said horse had an injury two years ago that wasn't disclosed and now I dont know what to do...blah blah blah..." Those of you who are preaching about who caaaares about the papers, would be ripping her a new one and calling her an idiot and yelling, that's the risk you take for being naive.

Tell me I'm wrong.

Well, I think you are largely wrong. Knowing the age of a horse matters, IMO. A competent vet should be able to verify that, within reason. (Papers might also, but then we could debate if the papers had been switched around, etc. It does happen.)

The thing I think is complicating the discussion is the proposed purchase price. Yes, "close to six figures" is a lot of money to most of us. But generally speaking in the AA show world, that is NOT enough money to buy a proven winner with a long show record, (unless the horse is perhaps stepping down) and it would be considered a reasonable price point for a horse that had been successful in an amateur division for a year or so - and in this case, not just generally successful, but successful with the potential buyer in the irons for six months, which is huge. Heck, I was offered more than that for the last horse I sold when he was barely four years old, and had a whopping two months of show experience, in the baby greens, with only a couple pastel colored ribbons to his credit. And I turned those offers down. (He went on to be very successful and sold for a better price as a first year horse.)

Having papers is really not going to protect the buyer from the horse going lame a year later. It doesn't even necessarily allow you to thoroughly research the horse's past show performance, as horses can be shown in any number of unrated venues, under different names, etc.

I personally wouldn't care for this trainer/seller's attitude and would probably walk away from the deal b/c being treated professionally matters to me. But if liked the horse well enough to consider spending that kind of money on him despite the trainer's attitude, I'd use my own very competent vet and I'd do the mother of all PPE's, knowing that THAT is the best way to learn about any physical issues or weaknesses the horse might have. And I'd make my purchase decision based on that data.

convertedhorselover
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:20 AM
I understand people will get tired of my comparisons to other industries (namely the auto industry) but I find it absolutely amazing how many on this board think that documentation is unnecessary. The only thing that matters is what is front of you and the suitablity for the job required.

You are shopping for a $45,000 3/4 Ton Diesel. You come to visit our showroom and I show you a truck that absolutely fits your requirements. You test drive the vehicle and conclude it is the right vehicle for you. We agree on a price and just before you leave I let you know that the vehicle is a 2012 model but unfortunately, the ownership has been lost and I am unable to provide you with documentation. You subsequently ask for the CarFax for vehicle history. It is lost with the ownership, but I tell you the truck has never been in an accident or a major collision. Don't worry, I have been in this business for a long time and I know the truck is what I say it is.

I have said in earlier posts, probably incorrectly, that the papers are important. What I should have said is documentation is important.

I know many of you are going to say "Our industry is different". Yes it is and that is unfortunate. I operate in the most regulated industry in North America and it is for this reason, I cannot believe the horse industry is so unregulated.

Linny
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:28 AM
It's fair to say that being "imported" adds value, for better or worse. That said, why would someone go to the expense of importing a horse and then just discard his proof of importation? Having a record of a horse's trail of ownership and performance CAN add value, but it can also detract. It can prove that a horse has a record of winning at 3'6 but it can show that he spent 2 years with a questionable trainer or a year sidelined. When a high priced "imported" horse suddenly appears and the trainer who claims to own him wants to sell him for nearly 6 figures but gets squirrely when asked about any paperwork, it does raise eyebrows. Also, if the OP was leaing the horse its perfectly legit not to ask about such things. It's different when you are buying because (for one thing) at some point you might want to sell.

I have heard all kinds of claims made about horses I've ridden over the years. Some were true (my first lesson was on a pony that DID show at the Garden) but most were not. Since most were TB's it was pretty easy to do a little research. Before spending "nearly 6 figures" I would make google my best friend and learn everythng I could about the horse.

trubandloki
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:33 AM
You are shopping for a $45,000 3/4 Ton Diesel. You come to visit our showroom and I show you a truck that absolutely fits your requirements. You test drive the vehicle and conclude it is the right vehicle for you. We agree on a price and just before you leave I let you know that the vehicle is a 2012 model but unfortunately, the ownership has been lost and I am unable to provide you with documentation. You subsequently ask for the CarFax for vehicle history. It is lost with the ownership, but I tell you the truck has never been in an accident or a major collision. Don't worry, I have been in this business for a long time and I know the truck is what I say it is.
I am all for comparisons but in this case it does not work. A vehicle with no paper trail is not registrable so not useable for purpose for which it is intended. A horse with no paper trail is useable...very useable.

quietann
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:36 AM
And without papers how would you know that?

Referring to TBs, if it's raced, it has a tattoo and at the very least you'll know the age, and you can get more of a race performance record if you can read the full tattoo. That's one of the few cases where you don't need the actual papers to find out what you might need to know.

(I think S A McKee is being disingenuous here, and deliberately not seeing the point.)

axl
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:46 AM
I hate it when the OP disappears for 2 days and 8 pages! Hopefully s/he comes back soon with an update or just more information so we can stop talking in circles and calling each other dense.

convertedhorselover
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:47 AM
I am all for comparisons but in this case it does not work. A vehicle with no paper trail is not registrable so not useable for purpose for which it is intended. A horse with no paper trail is useable...very useable.

I agree that it is not useable for street purposes but in many large farm operations there are vehicles that never leave the property and are not plated, or plates/safeties are not renewed. I am not trying to argue with you but you have just proven my overall point. Why is it impossible to use this vehicle on the road with no paper trail? Because the governing body (Motor vehicle Department) would not allow it to happen, correctly may I add.

halo
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:49 AM
You are wrong.

She is purchasing a horse that does what she wants it to do.

It has nothing to do with Papers or papers. It does not have to have a show record. It does not have to be a certain age (with in reason, all which the vet can confirm). It does not have to be a certain breed.

All that matters is does the horse do what she wants it to do at the level she wants to do it and she thinks the horse is worth the price tag.

Note - I think some of the actions that have been stated this trainer/seller are doing do sound shady to me. But that is not part of the debate with the people who insist no horse is worth this price with out a boat load of documentation to go along with it.

Again, you fail to comprehend that she is not just buying a horse, but an imported Dutch Warmblood. She didnt say a grade gelding that does all that she wants, but an imported Dutch Warmblood. If she said, he's just a grade gelding, I would agree with you. But she didnt. Once again, the only thing that the papers will do is document that indeed she is buying the exact horse thinks she is buying.

Do you really think for a single minute that if he were just a lovely grade gelding that the price would be $75,000? I dont know, perhaps it would, but that was not what the OP said.

FineAlready
Apr. 3, 2012, 10:54 AM
I personally wouldn't care for this trainer/seller's attitude and would probably walk away from the deal b/c being treated professionally matters to me. But if liked the horse well enough to consider spending that kind of money on him despite the trainer's attitude, I'd use my own very competent vet and I'd do the mother of all PPE's, knowing that THAT is the best way to learn about any physical issues or weaknesses the horse might have. And I'd make my purchase decision based on that data.

Yep. I agree with this. The trainer's behavior and responses to the buyer's reasonable inquiries make me suspicious that at best, the trainer is a jerk and at worst, the trainer is dishonest.

That said, IF the OP likes the horse enough to still really want it and thinks the price is reasonable, I agree that the only way it makes sense is to prepurchase the bejesus out of it and ABSOLUTELY NOT use the vet that the trainer recommends.

Speaking from personal experience, I have found that buying a horse from someone I don't trust, through a trainer I don't 100% trust, using a vet that said trainer required me to use and with whom I was not "permitted" to speak concerning prepurchase results is a disaster waiting to happen.

I will never engage in a transaction involving any one of those factors again - much less all of them!

Perhaps none of the problems I have had with the horse in question would have been detected during a prepurchase conducted by an honest vet that was working only for ME, but perhaps they would have. Having since heard through the grapevine that the horse in question was lame when he arrived at the seller's barn and the seller had him for a very short time before I acquired him...well, I've got my suspicions.

At the end of the day, I just think it is a very, very, very bad idea to do deals with people you don't trust. Buying horses is risky enough without getting involved with dishonest or unpleasant people. To me, the OP's "real" issue isn't the lack of papers, it's that the OP has caught the scent of a scammer and should trust his/her gut on that.

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 3, 2012, 11:02 AM
Here is my take on the future:

In this day and age of lawsuits for a pimple, I think anyone selling a horse will be forced to sell without a history. Breeders however will be sitting ducks, so more will be getting out of it, and more people will have to import.

What horse goes thru even the first few years of growing up in a field without a brused foot, abscess, kick on its butt, swollen leg, slight illness, leg scrape, hives, etc?

Many buyers are also extremely timid riders, so can get into all kinds of issues from buying the wrong horse. Most of these are TRAINING issues, but they can always find a medical "professional" to say something is off. Find a history in any way related, and bingo - lawsuit.

Vets, chiro, acu, etc, etc are also now more of a business generating more appointments and money for the corporation, so likely to say just a bit of something wrong.

Everyone wants to now be a doctor or lawyer, so they better drum up the buisness to support all of these occupations.

The industry is going to have to go thru major changes, because sellers just can't guarantee each horse will never be able to be diagnosed with anything.

findeight
Apr. 3, 2012, 11:06 AM
Now, I want papers or good documentation because I don't like sketchy backstories or holes. I consider it important to me, so I ask for it BEFORE I make any offers. If they tell be they don't have it, I can check "references". NBD.

But realize that todays show horse is typically purchased for a kid or Junior by parents who are not horsemen and have no intention to become that. And others by adults who want to show but don't care to get interested in breeding with a gelding. They don't even want them if they do come with the horse, expect the trainer to carry them around with the other 10 pounds of health certificates, coggins and USEF
documentation for the 50 horses they are handling.

Many trainers are good with keeping it organized and copies of everything, many are not. Something that is not needed and never checked? Can go MIA, especially with a horse that changes hands several times in a short time frame. Many who buy to "flip" don't keep up with that side of the business and are not going to do the required transfer paperwork when they want to sell it within 4 to 6 months as it trains up. Another MIA opportunity.

And that importer who throws them in the trash? If the buyer does not want them? What are they supposed to do, they handle 60 head a year? And they are not supposed to keep papers on a horse they no longer own. MIA again.

Not really some vast conspiracy here just because the breed papers and passport are supposedly missing. Up to buyer to verify anything that is important to them before any negotiations commence.

TPF Hunter
Apr. 3, 2012, 11:08 AM
Its not about papers

Its not about the breed

Its not about being imported

Its about the integrity of the OP's trainer The OP may actually care about the things listed above however that isn't where her concern seems to lie. She knows the supposed "importer" by name only but just about anybody can find a phone number or an email address and contact the importer without having to go through their trainer.

As I mentioned earlier... IF the trainer owns the horse they certainly should remember who they purchased the horse from, right? If the OP's trainer stumbles when asked who they purchased the gelding from them HELLO, get the heck out of there. Even if there are no papers, bill of sale, known registries, or show record, the trainer should AT LEAST be able to tell the OP names of a previous owner then hunt down his history.

Aside from all that, tell the trainer you want to continue to lease the gelding and not purchase if they can't conjure up some history on him.

Oh and FYI, vets cannot always determine a horses age. I knew of a very successful AO horse purchased from a friend of mine at 11 yrs old. Sold him 5 years later as 11 yrs old :rolleyes::rolleyes:...said it was the age the vet suggested he was. Way off. Poor guy.

meupatdoes
Apr. 3, 2012, 11:16 AM
The industry is going to have to go thru major changes, because sellers just can't guarantee each horse will never be able to be diagnosed with anything.

Nobody is asking the trainer to guarantee the horse will never be able to be diagnosed with anything.

They are expecting the trainer to provide adequate evidence that they ACTUALLY OWN IT TO SELL IT.

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 3, 2012, 11:27 AM
They are expecting the trainer to provide adequate evidence that they ACTUALLY OWN IT TO SELL IT.

Don't most Bills of Sale guarantee that the seller has the right to transfer ownership and will defend that if needed?

So would a new USEF recording work? Current Coggins Test listing owner? New PHR or AWS papers?

To the OP, has the horse been scanned for a microchip?

Fairview Horse Center
Apr. 3, 2012, 11:29 AM
Nobody is asking the trainer to guarantee the horse will never be able to be diagnosed with anything.

Did you read the rest of my post?

meupatdoes
Apr. 3, 2012, 11:32 AM
Don't most Bills of Sale guarantee that the seller has the right to transfer ownership and will defend that if needed?

So would a new USEF recording work? Current Coggins Test listing owner? New PHR or AWS papers?

To the OP, has the horse been scanned for a microchip?

I can write you a bill of sale stating that I guarantee I have the right to sell you my trainer's GP horse, take a check for $250,000 from you and then when trainer comes back from their weekend clinic and goes :eek::eek::eek: where will you be? Waving your little fake contract some con artist handed you telling trainer to take a hike?

Hopefully you will want more proof than just a sentence in a Bill of Sale.

Oh and in case anyone is wondering, yes, I have had a trainer sell a horse OF MINE that I never saw a dime of the money. I was told a story that it "pulled a suspensory" and someone would "free lease it for their therapy program and give it a forever home as long as it worked out," and heard annecdotally through the grapevine years later that, if we are talking about the same horse, it is a couple owners down the line and doing quite well for itself on the circuit now, worth six figures. Would be nice if I had seen a penny for my own horse.

Evidently the buyer didn't care all that much if the trainer ACTUALLY SHOWED PROOF SHE OWNED THE HORSE TO SELL IT. Whatever she put in her "Bill of Sale" sufficed for them!

So yes, let's all bend over backwards telling the customers that trainers can't be expected to manage their paperwork and buyers should shut up and not expect answers to basic questions. Otherwise the poor beleagured trainers will have too tough a time ekeing out a living.

FineAlready
Apr. 3, 2012, 11:37 AM
Here is my take on the future:

In this day and age of lawsuits for a pimple, I think anyone selling a horse will be forced to sell without a history. Breeders however will be sitting ducks, so more will be getting out of it, and more people will have to import.



I think your perception that there is some increased frequency of lawsuits is extremely incorrect. I'm an attorney in a large firm, and, frankly, the weaker economy has resulted in fewer lawsuits. This is especially true for "small potatoes" lawsuits like issues relating to the sale of a horse (and, yes, even the sale of a six figure horse, which I understand this is not, is still a "small potatoes" lawsuit in relative terms).

Even when the economy is stronger, I'm still quite baffled at the perception that people go around suing each other all the time. That's really not the case. It's quite uncommon for folks to sue each other at the drop of a hat. Lawsuits are complex, expensive processes that take a lot of money, time, and energy. People don't just initiate them on a whim.