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Piatt Farms
Mar. 28, 2012, 10:06 AM
My friend has a beautiful talented TB gelding who she purchased as a grand prix jumper/combinded training horse. He has fantastic confirmation, bold into the jump, could canter a cross country course in his sleep and jump a 4' jump in a lazy canter (training on 5'+). He's also completely sound.

Now....the downside, he's grumpy. He can have a very bad attitude when being tacked (pinned ears and the occasional nip), he may pin his ears when you are simply petting him and recently has become aggressive when people come up behind him and threatened to kick a child twice in a single hour when they walked behind him (once with a horse, once just to get by). If she was the only one around him this isn't a problem, but she runs a training facility and kids are just a part of life (as young as 4). If she yells or gives a light smack his ears come forward and he gives an innocent "what??" look, but it's a liability she isn't willing to take. He will also have moments of deciding he wants to either rush the jump or crow hop between them and avoid contact with the bit. ...although other days, he can be completely lovely, sweet and takes the jumps like a gentleman.
She's been supplementing him with calming aids and for ulcers but there hasn't been a change in the number of "grumpy" days.

What would these "quirks" do to his purchase price? She was thinking of pricing him at 6,500, but is honestly worried that with as many good horses that are on the market she may have trouble giving him away. Do you think this is a reasonable price? Less?

***Not looking to sell him here, just get a "real world" view of what is reasonable in today's market***

TrotTrotPumpkn
Mar. 28, 2012, 10:11 AM
How is he about mounting--is he weird about that too? Has he been checked out by a vet? Does he exhibit stud-like behavior too--how is he in turnout? What does he do in a busy warm-up ring at a show if someone goes behind him or follows closely? Does he have a show record at those heights or is he just schooling them?

I think those things would make a difference on what someone would be willing to put up with (and pay).

Oh and how old is he?

Ozone
Mar. 28, 2012, 10:15 AM
If he was mine he would be going for a heck of a lot more money than $6,500! Ok so he's got an attitude problem but his training and what he can accomplish (a bad day riding here and there is not a big deal either IMO) far out weighs the attitude!

Some of the nicest horses, mine included are rotten but perform like the champs they are undersaddle. I would not turn down a nice riding horse because of his attitude.

findeight
Mar. 28, 2012, 10:15 AM
What is his record in the Grand Prix? Did he earn anything? What did he do at Combined Training events? And how old is he?

Proven talent means more can be forgiven. If he lacks any proof of that talent, as in show ring mileage and results? He becomes an unproven prospect and an unpleasant "personality" is going to deter most from taking a chance.

Honestly, if he is on "calmers" and ulcer meds in his familiar home situation? I would not be very interested when there are so many out there that may also be unproven but are decent to be around.

Have to add, he may need a vet work up, sounds like he might have some physical issues that need to be looked at.

BeeHoney
Mar. 28, 2012, 10:24 AM
A horse that has proven themselves in the show ring can have a few flaws in terms of ground manners/quirks. The cranky days under saddle would probably be an issue in terms of pricing the horse, though, because that could translate to inconsistency in the show ring, not being an ammy friendly ride, or some kind of undiagnosed soundness issue.

For a horse that has not yet proven himself in the show ring (I don't care how high or how great he is schooling at home) quirks and ground manners are a bigger issue, and the inconsistencies under saddle a bigger issue yet.

In today's market, being ammy friendly is critical and that can make or break a sale horse. There aren't too many people out there spending $ on pro-ride only type horses (with the exception of high end prospects).

PinkBoots
Mar. 28, 2012, 10:32 AM
I would say thats too low! If he's really that talented, he will appeal to pros/a really good ammy who is not bothered by attitude issues. I would try to market him in that direction. I'm an AO jumper, and my horse is similar to this- he's a super freaky jumper and can be very sweet when he wants to, but most of the time can be nasty. He has to be turned out alone and will go after another horse if they walk by!
I think you could definitely get at least 6500 for him, regardless of his quirks. But I like that type of horse so I could be biased :)

speculation07
Mar. 28, 2012, 10:50 AM
Of course it matters where your marketing the horse but if an Amateur can ride this horse in the High Adults- Mini Prix your looking at a LOT more money that 6,500 especially if it has some show miles even locally w/ video. I have a grumpy one that is older been there done that but a PIG on the ground but once his kid is on him he is a 3ft packer and he does the same things yours does (he is not for sale EVER but someone offered 20k for him at 17yrs old)

Also when you say grumpy is that meaning ears pinned tail swishing or is it aggressive like it will actually go for you and would you consider it dangerous for an amateur to handle? When you say crow hop is it a protest or does it want the rider OFF now?

If it is above 16h, under 12yrs old, has a decent show record, nothing major will come up on the vet check, and isn't generally difficult to ride I would say 30k (40-50k w/ out temperment issues). If it was me I would market him to other trainers if he has ability to do money classes such as mini prix at 1.40.

I hate to say it but pricing him that low may put him in an unsafe situation for whoever purchases him. Such as people without a knowledgeable trainer who think they "know better" and can fix the horse and may get hurt, instead of just taking the horse for what he is and working around him. Generally experienced people know talent and they are prepared to pay for it. They also generally know how to deal with a "special" horse and will cater to its needs (more turnout, special feed, special training program etc.). BIG sign on stall door (HE BITES).

findeight
Mar. 28, 2012, 10:53 AM
For OP, does this horse have a show record or not? And in what division if he does?

It matters enormously in both pricing and advice we can give you.

omare
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:10 AM
I would be curious myself as it seems jumping 4ft easy makes him a high child/adult jumper? Just schooling 5 ft does not mean anything as many horses can jump a solo 5 ft vertical jump but would never be able to get around a 4'3" and higher jump course of related distances and oxers.

(Maybe eventing is for him as eventers seem to tolerate quirky horses better and many keep their horses themselves so no 8 year old boarders to worry about.)

FineAlready
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:18 AM
If he has legit grand prix ability and the issues you are describing are truly just an attitude problem and not a health problem, I think the horse is probably worth a lot more than $6,500.

Totally agree that whether or not he has competed at or near GP level is highly relevant and will affect price. If he can just jump a big jump, but hasn't proven that he can really do a GP (or similar) level COURSE successfully, that will bring his price down.

That said, even if he has not competed at the GP level (or even, perhaps, if he has not competed at all), if he really does seem to be the "real deal" as far as talent goes, most people that ride well enough to ride a horse of that level are not going to be concerned about the ground vices you describe in a horse with true talent.

I would venture to say that MOST GP horses I have known are absolutely NOT safe to be around children, or novices, or even competent amateurs. Many are stallions, and most have a little extra "something" to them that makes them a bit tricky in addition to talented.

I boarded at a barn with a very talented GP stallion, and I will tell you...he was certainly not "easy" for most people to deal with on the ground or to ride. He was extremely quirky. There was a whole, very odd and very specific routine involved in even the mounting process that had to be followed or he became dangerous. That horse was still worth a TON of money because he was fast and clean at the GP level, and, once you got him in the ring and accomodated his quirks, he was very rideable.

Piatt Farms
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:18 AM
Thanks for the input! He's a 2001 model, 17h, on 24x7 turnout except when the weather is bad, he will stand next to another horse in the ring while others are jumping but he will lift a hoof and pin his ears in warning if someone else comes up behind him. Out in the field or when cantering across country he's fine with horses around him (although he hates to be passed...must be the TB in him) :D

He has been to shows but she's only had him since November, and honestly, there are not a ton of "rated" show's here in Oklahoma (I think there are 10 total each year--so that's reflected in the lower price). I think he was shown in the 3' or 3'6" division at the Go Show early last year before the prior owner decided to sell him. I will honestly need to go research it to give you accurate information.

I do know he's been to the Oklahoma "Raise the Bar" shows which aren't rated but are a huge step up from the hick town/county shows that seem to be in abundance, and is what most of us go to inbetween the Go Shows. He was the year end champion 2'6"-2'9" last year--beating the competition by a solid 35 points (that's all the higher those show's go).

Everything else she has done has been over the winter to prep for the shows this year (they have a cross country course on site) She tried him in the hunter ring just for fun at the Go Show last month just to see how he did (and to make sure he wouldn't become a fire breathing dragon) and he DOES NOT belong in the hunter ring. He jumped beautifully, but is a jumper not hunter.



Hope that helps some!
Katherine

Rel6
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:33 AM
Then at this point his price will reflect what he's done. You can say he jumps around 4ft and has schooled 5ft, but right now you would find it hard to market him as anything other than 3ft jumper in which case you initial price estimate might not be that far off.

Now if you could get a show record on him going clean at 4ft or up that would raise his price and make him more marketable.

findeight
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:36 AM
The show record in the 2'6" to 2'9" jumpers is something as is the possibility he did the 3'-3'6" which would be low ch/ad.

But he is 11 years old, a bit late to start a GP or CT career- not saying it's impossible, but few are going to buy an 11 year old for a goal that will take years from where he is now to attain. Feel you got a ch/ad jumper there. Thats going to be reflected in what somebody would pay for him. Most buyers at that level are going to probably want a friendlier type as a kid or ammy mount but I don't think his attitude is the biggest challenge in getting him sold.

6500 is on the low end of that market but fair if he needs to go.

He is big, that's a plus but be sure you/trainer actually measure him before advertising his height.

Have to figure buyer needs to ship it home as well as consider buyers will have to travel to you/trainer. Think your buyer pool in OK is pretty limited but it will be hard to attract out of staters.

Is he tatooed? That can be traced and get you pedigree. Some people will be more interested if certain lines or famous horses appear in his pedigree, it can help.

Anything that can be a plus needs to be researched. Plus, at age 11? He is what he is and that is what you market, not what somebody thought at one time he could be or what he might have been. People don't pay much for dreams, they will pay for proven products even if they have a few issues.

Piatt Farms
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:38 AM
I think the location and market here is a huge hurtle. Out east there would be a larger pool of shows to show him in and gain points on him; the Oklahoma market is primarily Western and caters to that.

To be frank, the people who are interested in a proven English horse are suburban couples who want to think of themselves as cultured by having their children ride English (vs Western) and thus are in the market for a kid friendly horse (those go for 15k-25k). I'm really not trying to be a snob, it's just how it is.
She and I are both transplants from back east so we still have the desire to compete and show at a higher level than what is readily available and why she was so happy to have landed him. (I simply bred my own WB and am now patiently waiting for her to age....) His former owner was from Ohio and brought him with her (along with her retired GP jumper) when she moved to Oklahoma.

I guess it would be fair to say he has GP potential but has only been proven at 3'6" at a show due to lack of showing. ...so that and the bad attitude would price him at ?????

mvp
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:41 AM
He may be a great horse for a young and talented professional. There's nothing wrong with a bold, healthy athlete who says "Bring It!" to people or other people so long as he also says that to any course put in front of him.

Can your friend market him this way-- to other professionals? If I were one of these, I'd want to know that he wasn't stupid or a rogue. I'd need to see that this horse was capable of respect for the right person/rider. If I thought I could make him rideable for me as my GP prospect, I'd ignore the rest.

As another poster said, these big jumpers often have a Take No Sh!t or On the Muscle attitude. It's part of what makes them able to do their job.

supershorty628
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:43 AM
I would say no more than 10k, with the recent information. 3'6'' jumpers are a dime a dozen, and one with a bad attitude on the ground isn't going to go for as much unless it has a winning record at the big shows.

I'm a little skeptical of GP potential in an 11-year-old horse that has only done 3'6'', but given that my mare started doing GPs at 14... you never know. Has he jumped courses at 1.45m to 1.50m with tricky combinations? As someone said earlier, it's one thing to jump a big single, but it's a whole other ball game to jump a big, technical track.

findeight
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:49 AM
mvp has a great idea there, market him to other professionals. And, shorty? Asking 6500 for it.

You may be in OK but there is alot of H/J activity down in North Texas and quite a few trainers, I don't know about the KC or St Louis area distance wise but it is within a day and there are a good number of H/J trainers and shows there.

For 6500 (or an agreeable price after some negotiation) I should think somebody would want him. Even with the attitude and if he never gets out of ch/ad, a good lease horse or something to flip for resale is always needed and your trainers price is a realistic one to at least start negotiation at.

Give that a shot.

supershorty628
Mar. 28, 2012, 12:16 PM
Sorry, missed that somehow.

lachevaline
Mar. 28, 2012, 12:27 PM
Maybe I missed this, but what has your friend done to rule out pain? Has he always behaved this way or is it new?

That kind of behavior just seems like bad manners to me... and as such could be addressed with groundwork (if pain is ruled out). It's a shame to have to sell him at all, if your friend really likes him.

findeight
Mar. 28, 2012, 01:51 PM
ehhh, he sounds like a liability in trainer friends busy teaching barn with alot of kids and probably why trainer needs to have him gone after just a few months of ownership. The kicking at the kid behind him is bad manners for sure but trainer is right to let him move on. Trainer and horse will both be happier.

Much as we can wish it were so, not everybody can afford vet workups, especially on less expensive and probably uninsured horses with no symptoms that are just grumpy and always have been.

I have spent $$$$ on such work ups for cranky horses that would bite and kick and found they were...cranky horses who would bite and kick. But they were always that way, did their jobs and were very good show horses. And that is what I bought them for, show horses, I have pets to cuddle and love on.

Angelico
Mar. 28, 2012, 02:05 PM
Doesn't have an A show record: minus $10,000
No prior experience packing an idiot kid: minus $5000
Not associated with a BNT: minus $2,000
Located in Oklahoma: one heck of a headache


If the horse is schooling 1.45+ , clean him up, take a vid of him jumping a course and swapping his leads, put it on YouTube, and start talking.

If you want to get him sold for good $ as a GP prospect, in your area, make the pilgrimage to Texas. That's where the money and the good riders are. There is actually one decent show in OK soon, in Tulsa. AA, one week is by GO (the ultimate horse show cult) and the next week is by Sandia Classic (super nice people). You'll usually get some good ones there, everyone is regrouping from Gulfport and Pin Oak.

It's a tough sell area. Most people won't look at a horse that isn't involved with a BNT.

ccoronios
Mar. 28, 2012, 02:14 PM
Piatt Farm - I just PMd you....

Carol

Beam Me Up
Mar. 28, 2012, 02:25 PM
If she's only had him since Nov and not shown him herself, wouldn't he be worth about what she paid for him then?

It's frustrating when you know your horse is talented, but her aspirations (GP, eventing) are really less important than what the horse has done (unrec shows up to 3' it sounds like).

I think her price is in the right range, unless she can make a video of him schooling a much larger course and make the argument that he is ready to show at a much higher level right now. The more he can do, the more he can be marketed toward more serious show people and the less his ground manners will matter.

Linny
Mar. 28, 2012, 02:51 PM
The horse, as he stands is best marketed as a 3' jumper. The issue is that most "3' jumper" riders are either kids or older ammies who often want a "nice horsey" that they can enjoy on the ground as well. They tend to ride at busy lesson/boarding barns populated by inattentive children ad non horsey parents an lots of horses in close quarters situations. Those are not ideal places for a grump.
(As an aside, my trainer got in a pretty grey hunter last summer and really wanted me to 1/2 lease him. He was fun to ride, cute and broke but he has a crabby attitude, has to be crosstied in his stall etc and I just couldn't fall for him because of it.)Horse is a bit old to be a "prospect" and it doesn't appear that he's in an English riding hotbed. If he were in the midAtlantic, I'm sure by now he'd have been seen by a young trainer willing to deal with his "crap" to get his talent into the ring and help make a name. Is there any way he could be sent to a more "horse centric" area to a trainer who could get him oer the hump and get him proven at a higher level?

Western
Mar. 28, 2012, 03:08 PM
Biting & threatening to kick (unless child is walking straight into his bubble without warning) can be eliminated. Ground manners can be installed. The horse'd be a lot happier & people'd be a lot safer if he had that done for him. The reasons for his behaviour must be discerned, then the time taken to eliminate them in a Friendly, Fair & Firm manner.

mvp
Mar. 28, 2012, 03:20 PM
ehhh, he sounds like a liability in trainer friends busy teaching barn with alot of kids and probably why trainer needs to have him gone after just a few months of ownership. The kicking at the kid behind him is bad manners for sure but trainer is right to let him move on. Trainer and horse will both be happier.

Much as we can wish it were so, not everybody can afford vet workups, especially on less expensive and probably uninsured horses with no symptoms that are just grumpy and always have been.

I have spent $$$$ on such work ups for cranky horses that would bite and kick and found they were...cranky horses who would bite and kick. But they were always that way, did their jobs and were very good show horses. And that is what I bought them for, show horses, I have pets to cuddle and love on.

Another reason to market him to a pro. An ambitious, broke and talented rider already knows that the horse she'll buy that can "take her somewhere" will have some kind of glitch. The good ones will put in the work to figure it out.

There's nothing wrong with advertising this horse and your friend's reason for selling him with a lot of candor: This horse just can't to the job required.... anywhere for the surrounding 1,000 miles. Lots of pros from outside your area would "get it" and not think worse of the horse. Just include a very full description of his rideability along with your video and you'll attract someone who knows what she is looking at.

Best of luck to you and The Fire Breathing Dragon.

findeight
Mar. 28, 2012, 03:44 PM
Biting & threatening to kick (unless child is walking straight into his bubble without warning) can be eliminated. Ground manners can be installed. The horse'd be a lot happier & people'd be a lot safer if he had that done for him. The reasons for his behaviour must be discerned, then the time taken to eliminate them in a Friendly, Fair & Firm manner.


Lovely. But that has nothing to do with this thread. OP asked about selling it as is and for how much. It's not even her horse nor has she been asked to "fix it".

Janet
Mar. 28, 2012, 03:46 PM
what level eventing has he done?

What level is the coursew he has schooled?

I am confused by your comment about "cantering" around a cross country course. That is NOT desirable. YOu need a horse that can gallop around a cross country course.

Western
Mar. 28, 2012, 07:30 PM
It's ALWAYS about the horse, which so often humans lose sight of, in favor of $, or some other egocentric issue. If you can't see the relevance of my comment, shame on you!

mvp
Mar. 28, 2012, 09:47 PM
^^

I'll be first in line to agree with you, Western. That's why I made a suggestion on this thread about who might do best with this tough horse.

But admitting that a horse has a problem that someone (here, the OP and perhaps most ammies) can't fix, and still asking how to sell him to someone who can isn't egotism. It's not necessarily humility, either. It's just a practical question. Can you untwist the knickers for a sec? No one is suggesting that a horse will lose if we agree for the time being that the horse is the way he is and will stay that way.

Piatt Farms
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:36 PM
I appreciate the frank, honest replies and recommendations.

He is a good boy with lots of talent and as some of you have pointed out he does have ground manners and quirks that could be worked on, if he didn't pose a danger to the children at the training facility. I think with the right trainer/rider/facility he could have unlimited talent.

For the moment she is going to give him a week off, continue the U-7 to see if there is any improvement and then get a good video of him.

thanks again!
Katherine

Kato
Mar. 28, 2012, 11:53 PM
If she can get him to a show and have him go around successfully at 4+ ft, then you will be able to ask a lot more money than $6500. As others have pointed out, a good ammie or young trainer with little money will see his jumping abilities and not mind the quirkiness. If all you have is the 3'6" show record, your price (sadly) is probably about right, at least for your area of the country.

Another thought - do you have a relationship with an east or west coast trainer, or someone who lives in a bigger horsey area? If you could just get him there you could ask for more $$ than the cost of shipping. Even where I am, in Sacramento (northern CA), such a horse would probably command a much higher price.

Western
Mar. 29, 2012, 12:32 AM
^^

I'll be first in line to agree with you, Western. That's why I made a suggestion on this thread about who might do best with this tough horse. Thanks. Sorry I missed your words; I skimmed.But admitting that a horse has a problem that someone (here, the OP and perhaps most ammies) can't fix, and still asking how to sell him to someone who can isn't egotism. It's not necessarily humility, either. It's just a practical question. Can you untwist the knickers for a sec? No one is suggesting that a horse will lose if we agree for the time being that the horse is the way he is and will stay that way.

Putting the issue the way you did is not egotism, agreed. Yet, some gave examples of allowing their horses to be miserable "on the ground" for the duration of their owning them, as long as they performed under saddle. He IS miserable, because he doesn't have the partnership with humans that precludes the chronic biting, threats to kick, etc.

Being bothered as this horse is, the owner wouldn't pass PNH Level 1, (I say this only because I'm most familiar with PNH) & likely, Buck Brannaman, Tom Dorrance, & other recognized horsemen. There's no artificial split between ground manners & under saddle work, & it's about the horse & the partnership, at all times.

dani0303
Mar. 29, 2012, 12:48 AM
Oh man, if he really is what he's said to be, and I had $6500, as a young pro I'd scoop him up in a HEARTBEAT! How far are you from CO? I know they have a decent sized circuit here in the summer between the CO Horse Park in Parker and the Estes Park shows.

Neigh-Neigh
Mar. 29, 2012, 12:59 AM
I think you should price him a bit higher. Maybe more toward $9K. This leaves some room for negotiation to a bit of a lower price (economy-wise), but also, it somewhat protects the horse from falling into the wrong hands. A horse of this temperment needs to be handled in the supervison of professionals. Pricing him cheap could bring out the crazies. Like me. I'd see 9K and keep on scrollin' ;)

JMO.

nightsong
Mar. 29, 2012, 04:05 AM
The reasons for his behaviour must be discerned,


Amen. What you're describing isn't "quirks," or "issues" but classic PAIN behavior. Every horse is "worth" trying to find out why you riding him hurts so much.

fordtraktor
Mar. 29, 2012, 08:52 AM
OP's trainer is right not to want this horse in her barn teeming with little kids, even if she "fixes" him with all the Parelli in the world. You can make these horses better but I have never seen one be 100% reliable after ground work when they start with a hair trigger on the hooves and teeth. These horses are a liability in a lesson barn -- and it only takes one kick to ruin your business.

Now, you say, perhaps they were hurting that day. That is no excuse. My horses have all had to deal with pain at some point (what horse hasn't?). But they don't bite me or kick me while I'm trying to fix their problems.

Selling the horse with full disclosure is the ethical thing to do and sounds like she plans to do that, with an appropriate discount. Let someone without a bunch of 4 year olds running around figure out the issue.

lachevaline
Mar. 29, 2012, 01:04 PM
Amen. What you're describing isn't "quirks," or "issues" but classic PAIN behavior. Every horse is "worth" trying to find out why you riding him hurts so much.

This is why I asked the OP if this behavior is new or if he's ALWAYS been like this, if she and her friend know.

IMO "always" could be personality, but newer behavior? I'd seriously consider looking into pain issues.

And the OP did ask how we'd price the horse, but from her first post I got the impression that if this behavior could be eliminated her friend wouldn't really want to sell at all.

trabern
Mar. 29, 2012, 01:14 PM
To be honest, I've never been fortunate enough to meet a competitive 5' horse that wasn't an asshole for ground handling/mounting. In fact while grooming at a GP the biggest shock to me was that all the 5' horses were total jerks to tack and mount. Complete bad actors, and nobody seemed to bat an eye (well, except us grooms in the danger zone). But as we say, if a horse is paying his own way he gets to be that way.

However I understand your friend's concern that he's not a safe solid citizen in a family and lesson barn. My barn is family-friendly, and if I'm paying a horse's way, it had better be family-friendly too (with exception for green horses with every indication they will come out of the program ready to be safe solid citizens). That's our bread and butter. I prefer the horse that tops out at 3' that anyone can groom, turn out, and tack-up.

So it comes down to whether he can pay his way, so to speak--if he's competitive at those heights, he gets to be an asshole and a very expensive asshole, at someone else's barn. Get show results and video of that and raise the price.

If not, then lower the price. He needs to leave current barn, and anyone who takes him on has a retraining project or a risky training endeavor to get him to be either a solid citizen or a competitive jerk. :)

(PS: Those of you with GP horses that are complete joys to be around for the grooms and in your barn, I hope you know your horse is made of solid gold and poops platinum.)

TrotTrotPumpkn
Mar. 29, 2012, 01:24 PM
I agree with everyone, if you can't get him to a higher level at a show, or connect with a bnt or well connected trainer--because he needs to go now--then at least get a good video of him schooling the height you are advertising him as.

I don't doubt you, but there are a gazillion ads where the horse has shown 2'6" or 2'9" but "has the talent to go all the way--can jump 5'!" or whatever.

Seeing is believing.

Otherwise, without the "proof" I think he is actually priced high.

I'm also seeing red-flags for some sort of physical issue here and that would concern me if I were a potential buyer...

AmmyByNature
Mar. 29, 2012, 01:42 PM
For the moment she is going to give him a week off, continue the U-7 to see if there is any improvement and then get a good video of him.

thanks again!
Katherine

I may have missed something in the thread, but u-7 will not cure ulcers. It may help them from recurring, but it will not cure them. If you want to rule out ulcers, give him a full tube of Ulcergard or Gastrogard every day for a week. If he has ulcers, you'll see improvement VERY quickly. Like a day or two. (At least, that's what I've experienced.)

The full course of Ulcergard/Gastrogard is pretty expensive, since it's multiple weeks of treatment, but it's nothing compared to the amount more money you'd get if the horse's ground manners and attitude improved.

findeight
Mar. 29, 2012, 01:44 PM
It's ALWAYS about the horse, which so often humans lose sight of, in favor of $, or some other egocentric issue. If you can't see the relevance of my comment, shame on you!

Yeah, well, when somebody asks a relatively simple question about a horse they do not own and they have not been asked to work with, why turn it into bashing people you have no clue about?

I know some refuse to believe it but there some much loved, well treated, super athletic, hard working horses that can be a little iffy to be around despite good ground handling. Some of them even don't like to be poked and prodded by somebody else's kid. But if they are talented, we forgive them their quirks.

That hardly makes the owners egocentric or their horses miserable. One size does not fit all, no one program works for anybody and, again IMO, everybody gets the benefit of the doubt instead of somebody jumping to conclusions about the way they treat their horses.

I dislike the inferrence that the trainer, who realizes she made a mistake buying this one for her busy training barn full of kids, who does not have time to work with it and has it priced to reflect the fact it may need some vet work is doing something wrong. That is the best thing for this horse, that he move on where he fits with somebody with more time.

Linny
Mar. 29, 2012, 01:48 PM
The OP mentioned that they have him on ulcer meds and are looking into the source of his issues but in the meantime they have a horse in a kid filled barn that is a liability.
It is possibly that the horse was ill treated just mis-handled somewhere along the line. If he's an OTTB, he could have changed hands many times. Most horses have some baggage. Some shake it off when they find themselves in a pleasant welcoming home. Others don't. Sadly the ones that don't or can't are just not good options for family friendly lesson barn settings. They must always be watched carefully and only handled by a persn who knows how to manage their issues. Big barns usually mean alot of different people handling each horse.
It sounds like the OP (and her friend) want to do right by the horse. They want to get him to a place where he can meet his potential and have his issues managed well.

RacetrackReject
Mar. 29, 2012, 03:08 PM
I may have missed something in the thread, but u-7 will not cure ulcers. It may help them from recurring, but it will not cure them. If you want to rule out ulcers, give him a full tube of Ulcergard or Gastrogard every day for a week. If he has ulcers, you'll see improvement VERY quickly. Like a day or two. (At least, that's what I've experienced.)

The full course of Ulcergard/Gastrogard is pretty expensive, since it's multiple weeks of treatment, but it's nothing compared to the amount more money you'd get if the horse's ground manners and attitude improved.

Was just going to post exactly this. Get some Ulcergard before you give up on him possibly having ulcers.

Western
Mar. 29, 2012, 03:22 PM
findeight, I didn't make an inference about the trainer. I didn't ponder or conclude who's responsible for the horse's being bothered around humans "on the ground"; my point is that ANY horse is not a happy camper if he "gets to be an a**hole on the ground".

Seems that some here believe that a horse who "gets to be" dangerous is CONTENT being so; the truth is, he's NOT happy with the schizophrenic split between partnership on the ground & under saddle, NOT happy with lack of good leadership on the ground.

GingerJumper
Mar. 29, 2012, 03:25 PM
You can send him east to me :D

Kidding, kidding. It sounds like he just needs the right fit (i.e., a barn without scrambling little ones and a rider who's fine with the cranky moments).

FWIW, both my horses (who were/are respectively both quite talented) are as quirky as they come and the first horse was known to be QUITE a jerk at times (although he'd never harm little ones, but they were the only ones safe from his cranky moments).

I think $6500 sounds fair for what he's done, his attitude, your location, and his age. And I am seriously jealous of this horse, he sounds like my favorite sort to ride.

ETA: Definitely suggest that his owner try Ulcergard or another ulcer treatment if she can afford to before she calls it quits with him.

findeight
Mar. 29, 2012, 04:01 PM
Seems that some here believe that a horse who "gets to be" dangerous is CONTENT being so; the truth is, he's NOT happy with the schizophrenic split between partnership on the ground & under saddle, NOT happy with lack of good leadership on the ground.

I didn't get the idea this horse was an asshat on the ground or dangerous. He just is not as tolerant of the ignorant and/or careless and noisy kids as other horses. Like many TBs and other hard working horses, not a lap dog that wants to be cuddled-they can be somewhat arrogant. Some mistake this for unhappiness, I don't see it that way, they just like their space and as long as I respect that and them, they respect me and the limits I set.

Proper ground work would certainly help but this trainer does not have the time or space for it, the right buyer can take all the time they need to "get into it's head" and figure it out.

INoMrEd
Mar. 29, 2012, 06:15 PM
Amen. What you're describing isn't "quirks," or "issues" but classic PAIN behavior. Every horse is "worth" trying to find out why you riding him hurts so much.

No one said anything about him being quirky when being ridden, as I read it he is just grumpy to be around, not when being ridden.

mvp
Mar. 29, 2012, 06:32 PM
I don't want to turn this thread into a trainwreck, but I have a genuine question for the Parelli fan :



Being bothered as this horse is, the owner wouldn't pass PNH Level 1, (I say this only because I'm most familiar with PNH) & likely, Buck Brannaman, Tom Dorrance, & other recognized horsemen. There's no artificial split between ground manners & under saddle work, & it's about the horse & the partnership, at all times.[/QUOTE

[QUOTE=Western;6224965]findeight, I didn't make an inference about the trainer. I didn't ponder or conclude who's responsible for the horse's being bothered around humans "on the ground"; my point is that ANY horse is not a happy camper if he "gets to be an a**hole on the ground".

Seems that some here believe that a horse who "gets to be" dangerous is CONTENT being so; the truth is, he's NOT happy with the schizophrenic split between partnership on the ground & under saddle, NOT happy with lack of good leadership on the ground.

Yes, but what do these guys want to *do* about a horse with a huge ego and a bit of a chip on his shoulder? IME, the really great athletes have some of this. If you tried to make them softer or more submissive, you might take away some of that boldness that you want. Or-- as is more often the case-- you'd really hurt the horse physically or mentally in the process of getting the horse to that staring point kind of attitude I think Parelli wants.

See, I don't think these "tough ba$stard" horses want leaders. They'll take "colleagues" in their people, perhaps.

But in order to establish your dominance (even if you are fair and kind), you end up having a fight with them because the horse just can't fathom what you want, or why you want it. He won't give up because he can't figure out *what* to give up. Showing this kind of animal that he had better give up on second-guessing you and just say "yes, ma'am" takes either a hell of a lot of physical milage put on the horse, or more skill than even most pros have.

CaitlinandTheBay
Mar. 29, 2012, 06:50 PM
I think this trainer is making an excellent decision for the horse. Ulcers are a possibility, but he may just be an anti-social guy. Personally, I'm not very "social". I'll entertain the company of others, but I don't like to be touched, hugged and prefer to stay tacit or not go out at all. I am not the only person like this. It's ridiculous to think that all horses should have the same "lovey-dovey" personality. Some just don't want to be your best friend. As horse owners, it's our responsibilty to acknowledge our horse's personalities and accept them for who they are. My guy is a rescue whom I've owned for eight years. Would I love it if he'd nicker when he saw me? Or trot up to the gate? You betcha. But the reality is he doesn't want us to be best buds. He does his job (and enjoys it), but that's all. He's kind of a snob and I just have to live with that.

That said, OP, your friend is doing right by this horse. Putting him in a situation where he's unhappy or uncomfortable (dealing with families/children) isn't fair. Kudos to her. As others have said, the price seems fair given what he's done. I like the idea of advertising him to a young pro. I'd also encourage advertisement towards 20-something ammies. Perhaps, in the OSU/OU areas. I'm at a small barn now with just college girls. I can't think of one that wouldn't jump at having a talented horse, even with quirks. I've also found that most college students willing to make the horse thing "work" while in school, are capable enough to handle the snotty ground manners you described.

outside__line
Mar. 29, 2012, 07:09 PM
See, I don't think these "tough ba$stard" horses want leaders. They'll take "colleagues" in their people, perhaps.



I think of it like colleagues, too. I have worked with a lot of different people - some of them become close personal friends, others are 'just' colleagues with whom I had/have a good working relationship. I don't see why we would expect horses to be any different.

I kind of like the difficult horses. The super-lovey ones seem a little less interesting after a while. I like to have quirks to figure out.

This horse doesn't sound particularly dangerous - just quirky, and maybe 'introverted'. Finding him a home in a quieter barn with less kid-chaos or people traffic might be just the ticket. Sometimes a situation that's more in tune with the horse's personality is all it takes. If he truly has the scope and talent, the right situation will come along as long as his price is reasonable.

Piatt Farms
Mar. 29, 2012, 07:21 PM
Everything you are saying has been very helpful (and the thread passed along!).

We tried to get a video of him yesterday (I'm best buddy/video girl); but had a boarderline meltdown so we got some video but it's not fantastic and not at the heights we wanted. Ironically it was under saddle not on the ground.

He was half asleep during the tack up (no nipping or dancing) and even while she used him as a "walking chair" when instructing a 15yr old in the ring. She did one full but small (2'6"-2'9") course to warm him up and he started with his head tossing, avoidance of the bit, crow hopping and just being an a$$. So we decided to just call it a day and not push his buttons since something is obviously up.

Based on everyone's advice here I told her she needed to REALLY give him a week or so off, keep the Gastroguard (NOT U-7--that was my screw up), trim and reshoe him (he's due), and then start with the cross country which he really loves or some trails to bring him back into it with the "happy" stuff he loves. She rides him 6 days a week, although sometimes only for 20 minutes, so maybe yesterday he was saying "ENOUGH" and we need to listen. I also brought up your points that this could be pain, so a week + off will at least give us a baseline.

For those of you who asked--- his ground manner quirks are not new, he's been like this since Nov (and even before that, with his prior owner) but some days are better than others. The head tossing, crow hopping and being a weenie in the ring is not new, but some days he is perfect...the 15yr old even rides him (although she is VERY experienced) and then other days, like yesterday, he's just a jerk.
Whoever said that the trainer would like to keep him if he didn't have these issues, you're correct, she would. However she also is professional and realilistic enough to know that she can't have an animal who is a liability at her barn, no matter how much she likes him or thinks she can fix him with enough work and time. He needs someone who has the skills to either allow him to be how he is and accept it, or work with him in a firm and fair manner without putting anyone in danger. For someone like me on the ground he's fine. He's testy but he's a TB and I have a few of those (and a whole range of attitudes) so we just work together to keep both of us happy (ie: you want to walk, ok let's walk, but you have to walk where I want to) but he is smart enough to know who isn't confident and will run over someone who won't stand up to him (ie: I'd never hand him to my husband, I'd find him flying behind the horse like a kite- I just know it). So I think she's going to target the adult ammy crowd as you've recommended because they will hopefully have the ability to handle him, the desire to take him far but with a limited budget.

So again- thank you everyone! I think I've responded to all the PM's, but for anyone who I haven't, I will shortly!

Western
Mar. 29, 2012, 07:29 PM
It seems that OP has said her "thanks & goodbyes", so I'm sending you a pm, mvp.

Western
Mar. 29, 2012, 07:56 PM
mvp, my pm to you didn't go through because your inbox is too full.

Piatt Farms
Mar. 29, 2012, 10:46 PM
Western-

Still here...still interested in what you have to say.

Western
Mar. 30, 2012, 12:56 AM
My lovely, detailed pm to mvp got flipped into cyberspace, since it couldn't fit into her inbox. So, I"m going to make this brief: One who knows how to read a horse can discern what he needs to do to help the horse out of his reactions to something/someone in the environment, without shutting down the horse's personality or drive to perform. On the contrary, when the horse understands his responsibilities with humans "on the ground", he'll have that much more energy to put into performance, emotionally as well as physically.

I, myself, have found PNH's 4 basic "horsenalities" to be an invaluable tool for discerning which horsenality stands before me, & also how to help him, according to the approach that that horsenality responds best to. The uniqueness of each horse is not obliterated by the 4 main types, if one thinks of it as a *pie* with an infinite # of points possible therein, & due to the basic nature of the pie: Extrovert, Introvert, Left-brain (calm), Right-brain (nervous).

The biter/kicker/grumpy horse described here is likely a Left-brain Introvert, which means: dominant, unafraid to push creatures around, food motivated, stubbornly resistant to being forced to do anything. "What's in it for me?" is his thought.

If you've learned your horsenalities, you, too, would be able to accurately guess which type a horse is, & know which approach will help him. I'm not going to delineate exactly what to do with each horsenality, yet I will say that treats usually work wonders with LBI's; keep the LBI guessing as to whether he'll get a treat. Then, transition to being the treat yourself, by your good ideas for him.

lachevaline
Mar. 30, 2012, 01:21 AM
My lovely, detailed pm to mvp got flipped into cyberspace, since it couldn't fit into her inbox.

Western, your PM doesn't show up under your "sent" messages?

Western
Mar. 30, 2012, 01:28 AM
Nope. Since it didn't get deposited into mvp's inbox, it also didn't deposit into my "sent" box.

lachevaline
Mar. 30, 2012, 01:36 AM
Ooh, bummer. :(

tpup
Mar. 30, 2012, 09:04 AM
I may have missed something in the thread, but u-7 will not cure ulcers. It may help them from recurring, but it will not cure them. If you want to rule out ulcers, give him a full tube of Ulcergard or Gastrogard every day for a week. If he has ulcers, you'll see improvement VERY quickly. Like a day or two. (At least, that's what I've experienced.)

The full course of Ulcergard/Gastrogard is pretty expensive, since it's multiple weeks of treatment, but it's nothing compared to the amount more money you'd get if the horse's ground manners and attitude improved.

This! I would try real ulcer treatment for 7 days and watch for improvement. You could have your answer and a more accurate price more quickly and definitively....and not have to subject him to unnecessary training if it is a belly issue.

Piatt Farms
Mar. 30, 2012, 12:16 PM
The uniqueness of each horse is not obliterated by the 4 main types, if one thinks of it as a *pie* with an infinite # of points possible therein, & due to the basic nature of the pie: Extrovert, Introvert, Left-brain (calm), Right-brain (nervous).

The biter/kicker/grumpy horse described here is likely a Left-brain Introvert, which means: dominant, unafraid to push creatures around, food motivated, stubbornly resistant to being forced to do anything. "What's in it for me?" is his thought.

If you've learned your horsenalities, you, too, would be able to accurately guess which type a horse is, & know which approach will help him. I'm not going to delineate exactly what to do with each horsenality, yet I will say that treats usually work wonders with LBI's; keep the LBI guessing as to whether he'll get a treat. Then, transition to being the treat yourself, by your good ideas for him.

I'm not arguing here, just wanted to follow up on your post- I'm familiar with PNH as well. He's totally a right brained extrovert.

You did however, perfectly describe my TB who is a LBI.

bornfreenowexpensive
Mar. 30, 2012, 12:35 PM
If he is a good jumper and likes xc....send him to an eventer to get him sold. It sounds like you may need to send him out of the area to get a decent price on him. Perhaps he would be happier fox hunting.


I have several horses who are not sweet on the ground...and didn't have any pain issues. One I describe as a chain smoking biker chick. She may bite or kick you if given the opportunity (or if you startle her). She hates to be messed with. She loved being in a full training program at a busy Pro's barn where people leave her the hell alone and just let her do her job and be a horse. Is she dangerous...no. Just a horse with an opinion and that opinion is what makes her good at her job. Does she belong in a lesson barn with a bunch of little beginner kids....nope. But that doesn't make her a bad horse or one I have to sell cheaply. It just eliminates one type of buyer for her. It certainly didn't stop me from buying her....as being sweet on the ground isn't even on my list of wants or needs in a horse (although it might be top of the list for others).


I'd look serious into a few of the good event farms with consignment. List him also on Sporthorsenation.com and see.

mvp
Mar. 30, 2012, 01:47 PM
My lovely, detailed pm to mvp got flipped into cyberspace, since it couldn't fit into her inbox.....


The biter/kicker/grumpy horse described here is likely a Left-brain Introvert, which means: dominant, unafraid to push creatures around, food motivated, stubbornly resistant to being forced to do anything. "What's in it for me?" is his thought.

If you've learned your horsenalities, you, too, would be able to accurately guess which type a horse is, & know which approach will help him. I'm not going to delineate exactly what to do with each horsenality, yet I will say that treats usually work wonders with LBI's; keep the LBI guessing as to whether he'll get a treat. Then, transition to being the treat yourself, by your good ideas for him.


First, I'm sorry for all that I hadn't made room in my PM Inbox so that Western's message could have been received and recorded. That must have been frustrating, Western!

But it's just as well that we continue this discussion here where all can learn. (Nota bene, nay-sayers, don't bite the hand who feeds you knowledge, eh? "Take what you like and leave the rest.")

So here's my question about the "What's in it for me?" horse. I see how one could be "bought" by treats. But then the person is substituted for treats and valued for his "good ideas."

I think this can and does happen between these stoic, FU or merely "professional, all-business" horses and their grooms or long-term rider. But IME, it's hard to make oneself deeply relevant to a horse who has so much ego strength. To him, we are "wallpaper," the person who takes our order at MickeyD's. We see 'em, we're kind to them, but we don't think a whole lot about them.

You can make a horse like you and think about how to please you by being very, very good to him over time. These horses *do* notice who does especially good things for them. But it takes a long time. The other-- and usual-- way to make ourselves relevant to a horse is to set up a situation where we become All-Important Bad Cop that the horse tries to figure out how to change. In this case, we create a bit of a "Stockholm Syndrome" situation with them.

I'm not worried about the ethics of animal training-- we make a horse first pay attention to us and then like us because we cause tension that he can make stop by learning to read and respond to us. What I'm worried about how "over the top" that pressure needs to be for a very independent and strong-minded horse.

In some ways, the professional rider's approach to the GP horse is one of gentle reform. Here, the rider ignores all but the worst offenses, shows up every day and asks the horse to work. Horse gets praised for what he does, reprimanded for the bad stuff... but no one tries to get him to like it all. IMO, the horse who feels "heard" by someone on his team and has consistency sometimes does start to get interested in relationships with people. But you can't make them do this.

Western
Mar. 30, 2012, 02:29 PM
Piatt Farm, ok, cool, the horse in question is more nervous than calm & deliberate. (but your tb IS a LBI ;))

mvp: the whole point of dealing with the horse's rank behaviour "on the ground" is to cause the horse to WANT to partner up, as opposed to MAKING him tow the line.

Balance is needed, between love, language, & leadership (another really handy catch-phrase to recall).

The first task in the Level 1 test is to walk up to your loose horse, show him the halter, rub him all over with the halter, then halter him. If he gets annoyed, or worse, gets threatening, or leaves the human, do not pass go.;)

From this you can see the priority that the relationship is given in PNH/NH, & since it's a priority that helps the horse, I agree with it.

FineAlready
Mar. 30, 2012, 05:06 PM
The first task in the Level 1 test is to walk up to your loose horse, show him the halter, rub him all over with the halter, then halter him. If he gets annoyed, or worse, gets threatening, or leaves the human, do not pass go.;)

Okay, I have a *really* dominant and opinionated horse. He's very smart, and he requires pretty much constant groundwork to maintain a good, respectful relationship with humans. Not that I have to go out there and "do groundwork" with him every day, but he is not permitted one inch, ever, because he will take a mile before you pick yourself up off the ground. I do not do Parelli with him - I just do basic things - walk forward, halt, turn, back up, walk forward again, back up, trot in hand, halt, back up, etc. Doesn't take long, and I get a lot of bang for my buck out of this system.

If I walked up to him in a field and started *rubbing his halter on him* he would (a) spin in circles trying to figure out what the heck I'm doing/get his head to the halter or (b) possibly kick at me or run away. That said, when I want to halter him, all I do is hold his halter out with the nose open and he slips his head into the halter on his own. He knows the drill and is not stupid enough to need me to rub him all over with his own halter that he sees every day to prove my dominance.

I really don't think it is necessary for a person to be able to rub a halter all over their horse. Just putting basic ground manners on a horse like the OP described isn't rocket science. However, I think there are some horses, like mine, that will always require someone skilled to handle them on the ground - it's not that they don't get it, or are unwilling to accept you as the "leader" - it's that they will always occasionally wonder if today is the day that they finally take over the leader position.

Western
Mar. 30, 2012, 07:28 PM
Rubbing the horse all over when he's loose is NOT to prove your dominance; it's to do a few things, for both horse & human: for horse, it's Friendly Game: lack of direct-line predatory thinking (get the halter on) & time for scratches first. For horse, as well, it's a new game which gives the horse more neurons, more mental flexibility, rather than being haltered every time. (It's not that in PNH one must rub first before haltering EVERY time; it's that one should be able to.) For human, the discipline of rubbing rather than haltering helps to dissolve direct-line thinking/emotional impatience, for human's own neural pathways :). For the horse to accept the rubs, rather than get aggressive or leave, shows the level of partnership/degree to which the human is perceived as the worthy leader.

If my horse'd get aggressive or leave when I tried rubbing it with halter, I'd find that to be a clear & fascinating proof of where the relationship stood, & set about improving things, for the reasons mentioned.

It's so much fun to provide opportunities for the horse to think outside the box that humans have confined him to, & to see him then offer his own ideas/moves, which starts a dialogue.

FineAlready, your horse is very LB, perhaps has a high spirit, as well, so of course, highly skilled human needed.

Try rubbing him with the halter next time; aren't you a little curious? ;)

Rel6
Mar. 30, 2012, 08:33 PM
The first task in the Level 1 test is to walk up to your loose horse, show him the halter, rub him all over with the halter, then halter him. If he gets annoyed, or worse, gets threatening, or leaves the human, do not pass go.;)


You know, perhaps a bunch of people are going to disagree with me here but...I don't think its necessary for a horse to be 100% happy ALL the time. They're allowed to be grumpy or moody or even not totally in love with their job. They should not be in pain or uncomfortable, and they also shouldn't be dangerous or threatening.

For example: a horse I used to ride was a piss pot. Not dangerous, just pissy and grumpy all the time. My trainer basically said listen, he needs to suck it up. He does a few lessons a week and the rest of time lives in a huge field with his friends, free access hay, etc. He's got a great life...it doesn't bother me or my trainer that he might not love the hour he has to spend under saddle. And he really is just grumpy, he's an angel by himself in a ring and only acts out when there are other horses around (under saddle, in a field he's got his little pack.)

A know a lot of really easy, calm, nice horses who would not be ridden if I had to live by Western's standard. My old mare was head shy, not current horse is super thin skinned, an old bigeq horse I rode this summer was weird about his legs. All would fail the "rubbing the halter" test but all were easy on the ground and under saddle.

Western
Mar. 30, 2012, 09:37 PM
Rel6, yes NH folks do want their horses to enjoy their time with humans, to the max. (& there are folks in every venue who want that for their horses).

Yes, the grumpy horse/horse with baggage like head-shyness is common, & some folks don't care to take the time it takes to bring those horses out of what's bothering them.

Btw, it's never that the horse *fails* to stand for rubbing with a halter: the set-up is that the horse is FREE to show how he feels about it, so the fail is always on the part of the human.

FineAlready
Mar. 30, 2012, 09:49 PM
Meh. Okay, I'll try it.

Western
Mar. 31, 2012, 01:32 AM
Awesome! If the halter & lead are too much for him to deal with immediately, as scratching tools, you can use your hand, & work into it. Also, starting at the base of the neck is best. Let us know how it goes!

mrsbradbury
Mar. 31, 2012, 08:09 AM
First to OP,

I think you have recieved sound advice for your trainer friend. I appreciate her concern about liability.

I just wanted to share, that I own a barn, that gets pretty busy with kids, we cross tie in the aisle (shame on us!)_, there are dogs around, goats and all sorts of what one would consider liabilty issues about. But we educate everyone on watching what theiy're doing, paying attention to the horses, and being careful. Even though they are excited to be there.

When the littlest ones are there, we do keep the distractions to a minimum.

I also own a big, emotional Selle Francais. I wouldn't dream of parting with her because of my other business needs.

I have educated my clients about her, I don't let working students or kids turn her out, groom her, fill her buckets, clean her stall or even feed her. Only adult staff may grain her, and I do my best to get to her first before the other people come, if I have her out during lesson time, she's my sofa, or I lead her around while I teach. You know what, she loves leading during lesson time. We bond and it builds trust.

The cleints all respect her, and appreciate her. Some of the little girls are dreaming of the day when they are big enough to ride her.

The fact is, these clients are going to get exposed to other horses like this. They should understand how to behave around them.

I don't fault your friend on her choice, heck, I have given away two horses in the last year because they weren't a fit for our program. And bought one back because it bit a little girl in his new home; I don't know why, and I don't care, he wasn't a fit for them, and he was meant for a little girl.

Anyway, it's okay to make rules about a certain horse; and expect others to follow them.

Good luck on your future sale.

comingback
Mar. 31, 2012, 08:21 AM
You know, perhaps a bunch of people are going to disagree with me here but...I don't think its necessary for a horse to be 100% happy ALL the time. They're allowed to be grumpy or moody or even not totally in love with their job. They should not be in pain or uncomfortable, and they also shouldn't be dangerous or threatening.


I completely agree with you. They are living creatures. A long as pain is ruled out, and they have ground manners, let them have their quirks, and work with them accordingly.

Lord knows I'm not in pain but I dont tolerate certain situations very well and have no problem telling you about it. Should I start going through therapy so I can be "happy" about everything?

FineAlready
Apr. 1, 2012, 08:38 PM
Tried the halter thing. He pretty much did nothing other than turn and try to put his nose in the halter.

Rel6
Apr. 1, 2012, 09:34 PM
Tried the halter thing. He pretty much did nothing other than turn and try to put his nose in the halter.

Tried with my guy too on a whim...he just looked at me like "stupid, you're doing it wrong."

FineAlready
Apr. 1, 2012, 11:19 PM
Mine was later a total PITA to ride. Whereas he was perfect yesterday. I'm sure he was holding a grudge because I didn't do the halter thing right and he has lost respect for me as his leader. That, or he is just a PITA sometimes.

CaitlinandTheBay
Apr. 2, 2012, 01:11 AM
Mine was later a total PITA to ride. Whereas he was perfect yesterday. I'm sure he was holding a grudge because I didn't do the halter thing right and he has lost respect for me as his leader. That, or he is just a PITA sometimes.

Do we have the same horse?! My guy just rolled his eyes about the halter and then acted like demon-spawn under saddle. I tried to apologize and told him I'd learn to play it right, but he'd just snort and continue to crow-hop. What ever will I do?

Ghostdance
Apr. 2, 2012, 11:38 AM
Great points Mrsbradbury.

I own a "Fire Breathing Dragon" and he is the only one at my barn. It is a busy place with approximately 35 horses. Children are not allowed to be running around unsupervised at my barn. Any horse at anytime (even the most trustworthy old pony) can spook at a small child running up behind them.
When a new border comes into our facility I introduce myself and my horse.
I explain to them that he will bite you if you come to close while he is in the grooming stall and that if you get to close to my gelding while riding he will kick out. Everyone knows this and acts accordingly most of the time. I am very careful when people I do not know are around him. He is a fancy show hunter and loves his job. His job is to be a lovely show hunter in the ring and he is safe, sound and sane undersaddle. I deal with the attitude on the ground because he keeps me safe while riding. He has great manners to turnout, medicate, clip, trailer etc. so staff are never in danger. Just watch out when you are grooming and tacking up! Other clients (especially parents) ask me all the time what is wrong with him when they see me getting ready to ride.

I have had extensive vet work done on him to rule out pain, ulcers etc. and this is just his nature. He is grumpy and that is that.

I would have really missed out on a great horse if I had not bought him because of his grumpy attitude.

Hope the right home is found for this guy.

findeight
Apr. 2, 2012, 01:14 PM
Will throw in the fact that not all horses are bred to be cuddly and accepting. Some have 400+ years of selection to dig deep and fight, to never be passed, to never touch the rails, to move extravagantly and explosively (when asked) in the dressage ring. They have ego to burn and are not seeking companionship from humans. At best, they accept our guidence and work with us.

Probably not going to stand in the pasture during their own "personal" time and have a halter rubbed all over them. You wanna put it on and go work? Fine, otherwise...go away.

That seems to be something NH programs used to embrace, treat it as what it is, accept it as it is and work with that. Nowadays, they seem to assume all horses are about the same.

Western
Apr. 2, 2012, 01:45 PM
Findeight, well, you can't expect him to instantly get with a change from a deeply habituated program (in this case, now we put nose in halter). Plus the horse being uncooperative under saddle shows that rubbing him with halter caused him to lose respect for you is only your theory, stemming from a "See, NH doesn't work!" turn of mind. Thousands of horses know & experience the halter rub, & don't lose respect for their handlers, you must bear in mind!

Plus, NH hasn't changed from "treat it as what it is". The horsenalities section of the teaching proves that. Dealing with the "horse that shows up", meaning the same horse showing different sides of himself at different moments, is still key to NH.

Anyway, if y'all want to live with the level of partnership at which people must be warned about the horse when he's tied, hunky dory.

Yet please don't diss NH students for not wanting to, what to speak DEFEND your biters & kickers as the better way!

caryledee
Apr. 2, 2012, 01:49 PM
I'm really glad I never based my horse buying on a little grumpiness on the ground. I would have missed out on my once in a lifetime horse! He is 28 and still runs (well, more like shuffles off) when he sees me coming with a halter. But under saddle he always gave 110% and saved my butt more times than I could count. I always just accepted the fact that he never wanted to cuddle and was pretty likely to pin his ears and bite the air when curried. :) He accepted the fact that when the bridle and saddle were on, he was going to work. Isn't that what a partnership is all about?

FineAlready
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:10 PM
Findeight, well, you can't expect him to instantly get with a change from a deeply habituated program (in this case, now we put nose in halter). Plus the horse being uncooperative under saddle shows that rubbing him with halter caused him to lose respect for you is only your theory, stemming from a "See, NH doesn't work!" turn of mind. Thousands of horses know & experience the halter rub, & don't lose respect for their handlers, you must bear in mind!

I think you might be getting me and findeight mixed up. I'm the one with the horse that puts his nose in the halter all the time - the one that was totally fine for the rubbing the halter all over him except for that he kept trying to put his nose in the halter, and then was a freak to ride (quite some time later, btw).

Anyway, I'm still at a loss as to why I would want him to change his program from politely putting his nose in his halter so that I can bring him in for work to letting me stand there rubbing him with his halter. I take it as a good sign that he puts his nose in his halter. He WANTS to come with me to work (or hand graze, or whatever).

Oh, and I was totally being sarcastic about him losing respect for me under saddle as a result of the halter thing. He's just an odd duck. Would have had a difficult day yesterday no matter what. Something probably bothered him earlier in the day. It could have been something as simple as a child around the barn before I arrived, or it could have been the radio on in the arena, or just the fact that he wasn't in the mood to see me right then. But, pffft, too bad. He has top of the line vet care, all of his needs are more than attended to, and, whelp, he doesn't get to have everything his way all the time (even if he DOES know better than everyone else!). He needs reminders about that sometimes.

He has good days and bad. He gets a bee in his bonnet some days and we have to work through it. He's opinionated, bold, very smart, and frankly a tough horse all around...some days. Other days, he is safe enough that a beginner child could ride him. I can almost always tell what kind of day it is going to be the minute I walk into the barn. I've developed strategies for working with him.

The horse the OP described sounds quite similar to mine in many ways (though probably capable of much higher level jumping than mine). I do think ground work helps (it has with mine), but at the end of the day, the horse is what the horse is. And if you spend all of your time "not passing go" because you can't do the Parelli levels, well, you are never going to ride the horse. The horse the OP posted about sounds pretty capable. It would be a shame to waste what sounds like at least a useful riding horse slamming your head against the wall trying to pass Parelli Level 1, which may never happen for this animal.

Western
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:15 PM
Maybe you curried him too hard for his taste. I like to try & discover what's causing the horse to show annoyance, then fix it. That really improves the partnership.

eta: Yes, sorry, got findeight mixed up with FineAlready. Putting his nose in the halter, in & of itself, IS super! Yet, if he were to insist upon doing that only, & would leave Dodge or worse, get aggressive, if you first went to give him a body rub, you can see that that'd show a lack of trust in you as the leader.

Passing Level 1, in & of itself, doesn't matter: it's the horsemanship principles that matter. You'll never pass L1, fine; but is the partnership comparable, was my point.

findeight
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:33 PM
Yeah, that wasn't me and mine.

Mine have all liked their space and time out with buddies but always came right to me when I came into the field or their stall and dropped their heads to be haltered. If they don't when I aquire them, they do in very short order.

I don't rub them with a halter all over. But have learned to not be judgemental. If it helps somebody and their horse, fine.

FineAlready
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:37 PM
Maybe you curried him too hard for his taste. I like to try & discover what's causing the horse to show annoyance, then fix it. That really improves the partnership.

eta: Yes, sorry, got findeight mixed up with FineAlready. Putting his nose in the halter, in & of itself, IS super! Yet, if he were to insist upon doing that only, & would leave Dodge or worse, get aggressive, if you first went to give him a body rub, you can see that that'd show a lack of trust in you as the leader.

Passing Level 1, in & of itself, doesn't matter: it's the horsemanship principles that matter. You'll never pass L1, fine; but is the partnership comparable, was my point.

To be perfectly honest, lots of things bother this horse. Things he has to learn to live with. Like music in the indoor. Well, sorry, it's not my indoor. I board. Music is on in there sometimes and he has to be ridden anyway. Yesterday? My best guess is that what was bothering him was (a) the music; (b) some people talking loudly/laughing in the aisle right before I brought him into the ring; and (c) a gray horse cantering around in the arena with its sheath making noise. He doesn't like noise or chaotic activity of any kind, and his definition of "chaos" is pretty broad. His perfect world involves me and him, alone, working hard, with zero distractions of any kind. He is a Viking when it comes to hard, focused, solitary work. He can be an unraveled fruitloop in other situations (on the ground and to ride), but not always.

And he doesn't like his ears stuffed. I don't especially enjoy stuffing his ears either, so he is just going to have to man his little chestnut butt up and deal with everyday noises.

So, with a horse like this, where what is annoying the horse is stuff that he HAS to cope with...what is your suggestion, Western? How would NH deal with something like this?

FineAlready
Apr. 2, 2012, 02:41 PM
And I do agree with findeight - if it works for some horses, that's great! My point was just that nothing with horses is one size fits all, and NH is not always the answer for difficult horses like what the OP described.

Or maybe it is...who knows.

inca
Apr. 2, 2012, 05:26 PM
To be perfectly honest, lots of things bother this horse. Things he has to learn to live with.

I just have to laugh because I have a very wonderful, quirky, big chestnut mare that is VERY spooky, especially at new places. People will offer to remove the offending, spooky thing but I tell them that if we remove everything she is scared of, there won't be much left in the world. She just has to get over it, which she always does in the end. She is MUCH better than she was when she was young but still on the spooky side - that is just her nature.

I always say that her life's motto is "You can never be too cautious." She is NOT going to risk getting eaten by something unfamiliar - LOL

Western
Apr. 2, 2012, 07:09 PM
The annoying stuff that's unavoidable: a universal example of that is cinching; it can't ever feel good to the horse, but one can do all possible to lessen the discomfort. Cinch in three steps, moving the horse out & around you in walk & trot in between steps, then cinching as loosely as is safe, & using a back cinch with a Western saddle, snugged up as much as the front one, so saddle is more secure but with less tightness around horse.

I've seen LP work with a cinchy horse by holding the latigo, snugging it, then releasing in just a moment, rinse & repeat, to build horse's tolerance & understanding that this person won't put a death grip on horse, & that the kind way this person cinches is not so bad.

Noise pollution: I feel for horses who must cope with music when they'd prefer silence or raucous talk & laughter, or other jarring noises. Becoming braver around "visual oddities" because one's human has proven to be the "safe spot", is of value, yet noise pollution is something I wish people'd consider, for their horses.

In fact, some BN NH trainers commonly have a loud, crashy, c&w/rockabilly soundtrack to their events, which I, myself, find annoying, & have wondered how the horses find it.

GingerJumper
Apr. 2, 2012, 08:12 PM
In fact, some BN NH trainers commonly have a loud, crashy, c&w/rockabilly soundtrack to their events, which I, myself, find annoying, & have wondered how the horses find it.

Now, I know my horse is an anomaly in many ways, but he actually likes music. He's partial to reggae and dubstep :lol: My previous horse had a particular fondness for country, but he hated pop and rap.

AnEnglishRider
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:28 PM
I purposely ride with my iPhone playing music through the speakers in my pocket if no one else is at the barn (if anyone else is around I dont subject them to my interesting taste in music). Horse has got to get used to sounds coming from anywhere, including on top of him, and while there are many times I do care what he thinks (tack fit, etc) that is not one of them.

OP I think the biggest obstacle to selling this horse is your location... I had a friend recently try to sell her eventer that has jumped 4'3" and does some great dressage work here in the Texas panhandle with absolutely no luck. She finally just sent him to a friend in another state who wants to compete him to stay for awhile so whenever she advertises him again he'll have some actual experience, not just dressage shows, a couple jumping clinics, and a few cross country schoolings.

EdgeBrook
Apr. 2, 2012, 09:43 PM
I purposely ride with my iPhone playing music through the speakers in my pocket if no one else is at the barn (if anyone else is around I dont subject them to my interesting taste in music). Horse has got to get used to sounds coming from anywhere, including on top of him, and while there are many times I do care what he thinks (tack fit, etc) that is not one of them.

OP I think the biggest obstacle to selling this horse is your location... I had a friend recently try to sell her eventer that has jumped 4'3" and does some great dressage work here in the Texas panhandle with absolutely no luck. She finally just sent him to a friend in another state who wants to compete him to stay for awhile so whenever she advertises him again he'll have some actual experience, not just dressage shows, a couple jumping clinics, and a few cross country schoolings.

i ride with pandora in my pocket as well, even with my 3 year olds. Start them young, desensitize them so that shows are less stressful for them. Plus if they are ever going to be junior/ammy friendly, they better be used cell phones with any kind of ring tone b/c I see it more and more in schooling rings at horse shows.

to OP. I know I'd be interested in something talented with a quirk, especially at that price, as would most young professionals, seeing as we don't have endless resources when looking for prospects.