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Ozone
Mar. 27, 2012, 02:50 PM
My green but moving up nicely horse as of late enjoys riding with the trainer but not with me. We were riding really good together but as he is learning (which he absorbs and 'gets' everything so quickly) he is not enjoying his rides with me! I believe either 1) he wants me to ride like the trainer or 2) he just does not like multiple riders!

Right now I am on the verge of not riding him at all until his training is complete. Good idea?

Or just take the rides as they come and deal with it?

I want him to be happy! Lately my rides are not so fun! We are fighting a bit. When he rides with the trainer he performs like he's been an A show horse for a few years!

Do you own one of these? What would you do?

Angry Bird
Mar. 27, 2012, 03:20 PM
What does your horse do that makes you think he doesn't like you riding him?
I would lesson more with my trainer and learn how she rides him.:D

westie55
Mar. 27, 2012, 03:36 PM
First, don't be hard on yourself. I've been in your shoes, so I know how you feel. I've had to repeatedly remind myself in the past that if I got my horses to go as well for me as they did for my trainer, I would become a professional!! Which I certainly am not!! :)

I agree that taking more lessons will help. Even more helpful for me was when my trainer schooled my horse first and then I got on. This had my horse softer and more responsive and a little more mindful of listening to me even if my signals were less than 100% perfect. In time, things should get better for you! Dealing with a green horse has its ups and downs! Good luck :)

Rel6
Mar. 27, 2012, 04:16 PM
Any chance of putting another rider (not you or trainer) or him and see what happens? Maybe another trainer or someone who rides differently than you? Then see how he reacts.

If he's fine at least you'll know something about how your riding is not communicating effectively to him.

pryme_thyme
Mar. 27, 2012, 04:40 PM
I would say to keep riding him and as others have said to take lessons from your trainer to make sure you are asking him for things the same way she is. It may just be confusion.

If it comes down to it that you are asking the same way and it is just him being smart and looking for excuses, I would ride him as much as possible and have as many people, (who are qualified to ride greenies and that you trust), ride him as you can.

He has to get over it one way or another.

I have been in a similiar spot where my horse did not go the same way for others as he did myself but I had made the mistake of being the only person to ride him and train him. When I went to sell him he would cleverly 'test' the rider to the tenth degree. He would ride through it eventually but it could have been prevented I believe.

iluvponies
Mar. 27, 2012, 04:46 PM
Perhaps this horse just expects more from a rider than you can currently give him.

Lucassb
Mar. 27, 2012, 05:12 PM
Horses are creatures of habit, and most of them appreciate consistency. So sure, if the trainer is conditioning him a certain way, the horse probably does prefer any other rider to use the same aids in the same manner. That would be the point of training, after all... to condition the horse to respond to a set of defined cues in a predictable fashion. It's not personal.

FineAlready
Mar. 27, 2012, 05:22 PM
Horses are creatures of habit, and most of them appreciate consistency. So sure, if the trainer is conditioning him a certain way, the horse probably does prefer any other rider to use the same aids in the same manner. That would be the point of training, after all... to condition the horse to respond to a set of defined cues in a predictable fashion. It's not personal.

I agree with this, but I also think that the horse needs to learn how to cope with being ridden by more than one person (especially his owner!). OP - I agree with others that you should continue to ride the horse under the guidance of the trainer. At the end of the day, I suppose it could turn out that your horse is always going to be a pro ride and maybe not suitable for what you want to do with him...but until you are sure of that, I'd expect him to "man up" and deal with you riding him at least a time or two a week.

I'm sure my horse would prefer it if only pros rode him too. I just watched a pro ride him yesterday for the first time in at least 10 months. I swear he was rolling his eyes at me every time he went past like: "See, you incompetent slob? Look how fancy I could be if you would just ride better!" But I pay his bills, so I expect him to put up with me. ;)

KateKat
Mar. 27, 2012, 05:27 PM
I agree its not personal, although everyone does tend to have a different riding "style". I remember when I first got my horse, riding the day after my trainer was kind of a disaster because she really does well with a pro ride (needs pretty clear direction in order to perform well, and a stronger/more confident ride that doesn't give a lot of outs for misbehavior). So while I wouldn't say she disliked the way I rode, it definitely wasn't the way she needed to be ridden. So I changed. And she mellowed a bit. For the most part in the past year and a half, we have since come to meet somewhere in the middle where she has become more forgiving and I have increased my skills as a rider. There is still sometimes a disconnect, but for the most part we do okay.

So hang in there, make sure when you're riding/taking lessons or even just watching your trainer ride, try and emulate what she does. Like someone else said, if most ammy's could get on any horse and ride successfully, we would be the pro ;)

fordtraktor
Mar. 27, 2012, 05:37 PM
I agree with Lucassb -- it is not surprising that your horse goes best with the trainer. It should -- that's why they are the trainer. if it didn't I'd look for a new trainer.

The issue is how to get the horse to go well enough for you that you are having fun. Practically speaking, I would first talk to the trainer and see what s/he thinks. Sometimes horses benefit from a couple of months of trainer-only -- others are ready for their ammie owners but just need to get to the point where the trainer rides "last" long enough that the owner gets similar results, AND at the same time the trainer helps the owner learn how to push the right buttons and bring out the best in the horse. It is a process and perfectly normal.

Manni01
Mar. 27, 2012, 05:43 PM
My green but moving up nicely horse as of late enjoys riding with the trainer but not with me. We were riding really good together

So what happened, what changed?? Was it the way you are riding him, or was it the way he changed???



but as he is learning (which he absorbs and 'gets' everything so quickly) he is not enjoying his rides with me! I believe either 1) he wants me to ride like the trainer or 2) he just does not like multiple riders!

Right now I am on the verge of not riding him at all until his training is complete. Good idea?

Or just take the rides as they come and deal with it?

I want him to be happy! Lately my rides are not so fun! We are fighting a bit. When he rides with the trainer he performs like he's been an A show horse for a few years!

Do you own one of these? What would you do?

Invisible Cloak
Mar. 27, 2012, 07:22 PM
I agree with Lucassb -- it is not surprising that your horse goes best with the trainer. It should -- that's why they are the trainer. if it didn't I'd look for a new trainer.

The issue is how to get the horse to go well enough for you that you are having fun. Practically speaking, I would first talk to the trainer and see what s/he thinks. Sometimes horses benefit from a couple of months of trainer-only -- others are ready for their ammie owners but just need to get to the point where the trainer rides "last" long enough that the owner gets similar results, AND at the same time the trainer helps the owner learn how to push the right buttons and bring out the best in the horse. It is a process and perfectly normal.

I really like and agree with what Ford Traktor says here. I am in a similar situation although my horse is older and not totally green. He and I were 'going backwards' in our training with our last trainer and I was getting more and more frustrated. Finally I saw the light and have been working with a new trainer who has been giving him consistent rides for the last couple of weeks. He feels so much better for me than before but we've only had one lesson together since his boot camp. I'm holding off on schooling him by myself until I know what I'm doing again. I'm going to do everything I can to soak up what the pro is having him do; take videos and have her explain how she is cueing him for everything... I want to get to the point where it's fun, like Ford Traktor says, and I think more lessons with this new trainer will get me there. For now i'm trail riding on our off days.

I was told my horse got frazzled with multiple riders from the woman I bought him from. I get it, he's a TB and anxious and wants to please. Until he gets going really well it'll be just me and the trainer.

RunHikeGolden
Mar. 27, 2012, 08:17 PM
I think your horse is a sensitive ride and to put it bluntly, doesn't like one or many things you do when riding.

Years ago when my hands were not yet independent I owned a sensitive mare. I went out of town for a week and had my friend (who happened to have great hands) ride my mare for the week. I was actually entirely unaware of the difference in our riding until I got back. I got on my mare, picked up my reins and she started rearing. She would not stop rearing and I had to dismount. It took me a week to get her to stop rearing (and get used to my terrible hands again). I honestly didn't connect the dots until I went to a new trainer as a working student. She was adamant I ride with better hands. After a few months I started to get better and realized what I had been doing to my horse's mouth, and why she had that week long rearing fit. I also rode several different horses with new trainer, and wouldn't you know it, the ones with sensitive mouths would also rear until the trainer got me to stop pulling on their mouths.

I've also seen lots of adult ammy owned horses with similar stories to your's. Owner has trainer ride them 3 times/week and the ride horse 2 times/week (1 in a lesson). Horse is often cranky and irritable under adult ammy.

Your trainer should be a better rider than you, that's why your paying her! :yes: Maybe it's your hands, maybe your hips are too tights, maybe your leg swings too much, or maybe you're behind the motion. It could be just about anything. But something you do, that your trainer doesn't, bugs your horse.

I say don't be too hard on yourself. Riding and equitation is a never ending battle. Once you "fix" one thing, you'll find another you could do better. Don't put so much pressure on yourself, we do this for fun :) Keep doing what you're doing. Take lessons. Try to take some lessons on different horses, they may help you to have some "ah-ha" moments. Maybe give yourself a time frame to reassess. Depending on how often you get lessons. Maybe in 6 months, or 12 months you do a status check. Are things between you and your horse getting better? Is he happier under saddle for you? Maybe not 100% better, but are you getting there? If not, then maybe you sell him and get a different horse. You guys just may not be the right fit for each other. If they are getting better than give yourself a big pat on the back and keep going!

2tempe
Mar. 27, 2012, 08:26 PM
Ozone - First, how do you know he doesn't "Like" you riding him. I can tell you that my mare goes better when my trainer rides her (dressage horse here) but then again, show me ANY horse that doesn't go better w/ a decent professional on their back...If your horse's job is to be an amateur horse, then he needs to learn to cope and you need to learn how to make that easier for him. I've spent quite a bit of time this past winter learning how to ride THIS horse better and more effectively as she is more sensitve than prior horse. If the trainer rode her every day, I would never learn these things. Also, in dressage the training is never "complete" so there is no endpoint at which the horse can be turned over. So - assuming he's a hunter - is he complete when he can jump 8 fences w/out being an idiot; when he's done the pre-greens; when he's done his 2nd yr?
Back in my hunter days, I had a greenie, and one of the things my trainer worked on when he rode her was to teach her how to take a joke - a little tight to fence, a little long, etc. Because I sure was going to do that from time to time.

Ozone
Mar. 28, 2012, 02:37 PM
Firstly, thank you COTHERS! I appreciate ALL your advice. Warning this may be long – I want to answer as many questions as I can to get some more perhaps detailed advice. Right now I will agree to say I am a bit discouraged but I am positive in moving forward.

Rel6- I have had two other riders on him before and he gets tensed up, wild-eyed and although he will perform I can see he is balling up. Yes, he sensitive and doubts his self but other times he is the over achiever type who *thinks* he’s got it but he really doesn’t. This is also where one, if not more of the problem lies and why I think he could be a one man show. I have gotten many decent rides on him so I feel we were communicating now as he is learning more our communication has a miscommunication! It’s like the more he learns the less I am learning even though I cannot find any truth to that, it certainly is a feeling.

Iluvponies-You may be right in saying he may expect more of a ride than I can currently give him however, I am consistent with him, I ONLY ride him with the trainer, I totally feel like I am giving my part to the rides so I do feel like I CAN give him the ride. I feel it is him not wanting to give me the ride. Does that make scenes? This leads me to what Lucassb said about horses appreciating consistency and being ridden a certain way. I can finesse like my trainer but seriously I will never ride like my trainer does nor do I have intentions to become a pro. Like most everyone said “that’s what we pay them for” I have watched him ride my horse many times if not all the time and I will be at a loss if this is the ride my horse requires.

2Tempe- I thought that if he gets his pro rides and develops a solid foundation that I could get on and ride and help teach him in between pro rides but I find it going just a tad opposite. My big picture is to keep him in training long term and with his training, be able to get on and ride. Not in the scene of hop on push the button and go ride more like, he will take me quietly around, be attentive to my aids and basically be happy with me as his partner. I get that horses are a forever learning process. Yes I am taking it personal and I laugh at myself because I am taking a horses opinion mixing it with what I think he should be thinking which is making it personal! Ahh Horses – got to love them!

FineAlready- Like your horse rolling his eyes at you I get a wink from mine and ‘I don’t care who pays the bills’ I like this rider better and I can do everything that is asked of me… just not for you LOL.
KateKat – Do you think there will always be some sort of disconnect with your horse? What you explain about riding the day after your trainer rides being a disaster, I get that type of ride too. My question is: How did you change your ways to ride your horse? My horse sounds like yours in a way.

Fordtraktor – THIS was what I was thinking about. Not riding him for a few months while the pro rides are happening (I don’t care if it takes a year I am in no rush) when the pro feels he is solid enough for me I ride and NOT have the pro ride him any longer. Let him know that I am his only rider now with the pro on the ground schooling us. Good idea?

Manni- From us going from good rides to not so good rides it seems like the further in training the horse gets the more and more he would rather me not ride him! RunHikeGolden - I agree that I am sending some type of miscommunication to him, that something I am doing in not quite right. My trainer sees this and of course, points it out as well when he sees something that I don’t notice I am doing and we find a resolution for it. I feel this horse is something different though I feel he wants only those pro rides. I feel he is annoyed by me. Thankfully and like you suggested I do have another horse that I ride and have a blast with. I also practice my rides that I am having with my green horse on my schooled horse so my schooled horse can let me feel-to-fix what the green horse doesn’t know how to feel or react to.

The best part is that my horse is coming along so very nicely! He’s got an awesome trainer and is on his way to becoming a special horse. I will not even think to entertain conversation on maybe he is not the right horse for me, not giving up and not in a rush. I am determined to stick it out with him until there is nothing left to stick out. I just fear that he won’t be able to cope with me or others riding him and is bothersome! Hopeful at some point to have a post with some great accomplishment with him!

ccoronios
Mar. 28, 2012, 02:49 PM
Ozone - you mentioned that you were videoing your trainer riding him. That's great. But an equally important step is seeing how YOU ride him - so ask someone to video you. Try to do the same things that the trainer did when you videoed her. And watch them at the same time - one on the viewscreen on the camera and one on your computer (or TV or ???). Very often, what we think we're doing and what we're DOING becomes uncomfortably apparent when we're seeing it.

Carol

Sport
Mar. 28, 2012, 04:03 PM
On outside thought, but do you and the trainer use the same equipment on your horse, saddle, bridle, etc?
Could there be something in the trainers saddle that he prefers over yours? As he has developed has his shape changed resulting in a saddle that previously fit him, now not being the perfect fit.
I am thinking this only because it sounds like at the start he was ok with you riding and the trainer riding.

KateKat
Mar. 28, 2012, 04:49 PM
KateKat – Do you think there will always be some sort of disconnect with your horse? What you explain about riding the day after your trainer rides being a disaster, I get that type of ride too. My question is: How did you change your ways to ride your horse? My horse sounds like yours in a way.



Honestly, I don't really know. All I do know though is those harder days where I feel like we are really not on the same page have gotten fewer and far between. And the disaster after training rides has disappeared as well, and is finally at a point where when my trainer tunes her up for me, it actually sticks/makes an impact longer than less than a lesson ;)

So my horse is the type of personality who will do her job as well as you are asking her to do it. She doesn't give any more than that and constantly tests me to see if I'm paying attention (I always say she is like the raptors from Jurassic Park, testing the fences constantly for weakness ;) ). When I bought her, I was (and still am, don't get me wrong I am by no means an expert) pretty much a newbie coming off a point and shoot, fairly pushbutton horse. So I had to change basically everything in terms of feel, aids, reaction times, riding position etc to fit with the ride she likes. I also had to really start riding. Like...every stride. As soon as I start slacking off, she starts slacking off. So those days where we have been seriously disconnected happened a lot at the beginning when I still didn't know what she needed, to now only happening when I maybe am not really all mentally "there" in my ride (like a crappy day at work is distracting me, for example).

I have to say it has been (and still is, I work at this every ride) an extremely steep learning curve for me with some incredible frustrations so I feel your pain.

I don't know how similar our situations are since you have a greenie and my horse is a jaded old lady ;) but one thing that helped me A LOT was to ride other horses. Any and every horse my trainer would let me get my hands on. It made me VERY aware of habits I had picked up with my own horse, and I really had to work on changing the way I rode to fit the horse.

MistyPony
Mar. 28, 2012, 05:23 PM
On outside thought, but do you and the trainer use the same equipment on your horse, saddle, bridle, etc?
Could there be something in the trainers saddle that he prefers over yours? As he has developed has his shape changed resulting in a saddle that previously fit him, now not being the perfect fit.
I am thinking this only because it sounds like at the start he was ok with you riding and the trainer riding.

This is an excellent point. I rode a horse that started trying to buck me off every time I pointed her at a jump, but we couldn't reproduce the issue with my trainer on her back. Trainer rode her (with trainer's saddle) and she was fine. I got on immediately after my trainer (in trainer's saddle) and she was fine. That was when we thought to check my saddle and noticed it was crooked and giving her one heck of a sore back!

nightsong
Mar. 29, 2012, 04:16 AM
Look and seee what ELSE is different between your and your trainer riding. Saddle or other equipment is a biggie. Have You changed anything? Anything from new breeches that cause you to sit differently to stretched stirrup leathers that put you crooked in the saddle to weight gain that makes the saddle not fit YOU...

mrsbradbury
Mar. 29, 2012, 07:52 AM
I just wanted to comment, that in your case, it is the trainer's job to get the horse to go well for YOU!

I have an example. I have very talented horse in training, I was riding it a lot, and had it very tuned up. The junior rider was struggling with it.

I had a meeting with the family, and we decided that I would back off a bit on the regular rides, and we let him "dumb down" so to speak, and learn to deal with her learning curve, rather than get offended or fussy about her mistakes.

The plan has worked marvelously, we got over the hump and the horse and owner are happier for it.

I think that as trainers we need to keep the horse's future in mind.

What are you long-term plans for this horse? I read one of your responses about getting on and going around... where?

When a horse is tuned up for a trainer to ride it in the 1st years, or the M1.40, I think it's awfully much to expect that same horse to tolerate Ms.WonderfulClient to learn to trot Xs on it.

Ozone
Mar. 29, 2012, 02:08 PM
On outside thought, but do you and the trainer use the same equipment on your horse, saddle, bridle, etc?
Could there be something in the trainers saddle that he prefers over yours? As he has developed has his shape changed resulting in a saddle that previously fit him, now not being the perfect fit.
I am thinking this only because it sounds like at the start he was ok with you riding and the trainer riding.

Um... I feel like an idiot :yes: right this moment! Ugg - here's the thing when I got him he quickly grew from a medium to and extra wide tree so I have been riding as of recently in a new XW tree saddle. My trainer is riding in his MW tree... I wonder now! I am going to ride in his and see how that works out.. Yes he was great for a long time but now thinking of it with saddle change came not so nice rides for me horse! :eek: So stupid I usually am right up on these things but my old saddle was not fitting him at all. The new one fitst perfectly... but maybe it doesn't!

MsBradbury, I expect this horse to do the greens and move his way right up ... with ME that is ;) I understand what you mean about having the horse trained pro wise and me having him plod over X's. Somedays I wish I was still at the Xrail level ... got confusing since then :)

Arelle
Mar. 29, 2012, 02:18 PM
Do be careful that your trainer is not MAKING the horse a one person horse.

There are several trainers I know who can put world titles and circuit champion titles on horses, but can't get the horse to go for the client. There's a subtle difference in being a pro RIDER and a pro TRAINER and I think people lose sight of that sometimes.

Best of luck!

Sport
Mar. 29, 2012, 04:38 PM
Let us know if the equipment change makes any difference. Hoping to hear that he goes back to liking both of his riders.

I know Sport prefers his trainer as he gets to do more fun and exciting things with her, but he is happy to work with me most of the time as he knows where his treats come from.

mrsbradbury
Mar. 30, 2012, 06:41 AM
Thank you for the clarification Ozone.

I would then pursue your tack and other ideas, as your goals are not far off from a reasonable level that your trainer is schooling the horse at.

I hope the saddle thought is the piece!