PDA

View Full Version : NO LUNGEING at Devon?



Pages : [1] 2 3

nature
Apr. 21, 2004, 06:21 AM
I was reading the rules in the prize list and it clearly states:No LUNGEING ( their spelling) of horses at any time, anywhere on the showgrounds while the show is in session? Is this common at H/J shows?

nature
Apr. 21, 2004, 06:21 AM
I was reading the rules in the prize list and it clearly states:No LUNGEING ( their spelling) of horses at any time, anywhere on the showgrounds while the show is in session? Is this common at H/J shows?

Jezebel
Apr. 21, 2004, 06:27 AM
I've never been to a show where lunging was "not allowed"! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

horseygurl182
Apr. 21, 2004, 06:27 AM
I have never seen it in a prize list, but when there is limited space and a lot of people/horses around, it doesn't surprise me

*Worthwhile*
*Believe In Me*
*Bolero*
*Look No Further*

War Admiral
Apr. 21, 2004, 06:29 AM
I do know it's not allowed in Germany, if that helps... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Seriously though - I see it quite often at the Saddlebred shows.

I assume at Devon it is a space issue.

______________

"In the course of my practice I deal with a plentitude of neurotic people who without horses to fixate on would be, no doubt, stalking Brad Pitt, holed up on a rooftop with a sniper rifle or building a monument of human bones in the basement. Thank God for horses........." --Txfarrier

Rift
Apr. 21, 2004, 06:30 AM
If you have ever been to Devon you would figure it out quickly. There is NO room for anything at Devon. It is such an old show ground that there is nothing around it except houses, a bank and a road. It is a four walled facility with no room for expansion. Literally all of the haulins pay to park in the side yard of the houses behind the grounds and you walk your horse down the resisential streets! It's CRAZY! If they allowed lounging there would be no room for riding!

Proud keeper of http://littlebayfarm.com/ and the BAD BABY!

MHM
Apr. 21, 2004, 06:32 AM
It's common practice at Devon (and Indoors) to lunge in the wee small hours of the morning. Once the show starts, there may be no space available, especially junior weekend at Devon, when both rings are in use for classes.

buryinghill2
Apr. 21, 2004, 06:33 AM
There has never been any lunging allowed during Devon show hours. There is absolutely no space!
One horse lunging would take up a huge amount of the very limited space available for riding.

Everythingbutwings
Apr. 21, 2004, 06:51 AM
I was with MsHunter on Breeding day when she had to lead her yearlings through a horse being lunged by the Gold Ring. NOT fun and the person doing the lungeing acted snotty when she asked to get past.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

Anne
Apr. 21, 2004, 07:16 AM
Key words there are "while the show is in session". As MHM says, if yours needs a lunge, you get it done early in the morning or late at night.

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:12 AM
It seems to me back when I showed "Piece O' Cake" at Devon there was some limited lunging at wee hours, where I am not sure as Ronnie Mutch's grooms did it, because my horse was not rideable if she did not get turnout or lunged. I know when the National was at the Garden, lunging was allowed in the wee hours, about 3 a.m. because I actually got up and lunged at that fine hour of the morning. Too bad it is off limits this year at Devon. I wonder how that would accommodate a disabled person whom needs their horse to be quite for safety reasons, especially with the drug and medication rules.

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:13 AM
Anne, what is the Parrothead Clique? Just curious, I am a bird lover.

SoNotaDQ
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:14 AM
My guess is a disabled person would have a horse that was pretty darn bombproof. That it wouldn't have to be lunged to be quiet. That would be my guess at least.

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:28 AM
Well, I don't know about the stereotype that a disabled person's horse would be "pretty darn bombproof," unless you are only thinking about the kinds of disabilities you can see which are physical disabilities. I have a combination of autistic spectrum/specific learning disabilities, impacted by cervical injury and my 17 hand TB jumper is definitely not "pretty darn bombproof;" in fact, he is so hot and sensitive I have yet to see someone able to jump him other than myself, but then while people with autistic spectrum disabilities are not very good at communicating and socially interacting with people they have a talent for communicating with animals. Even so, I would not want to ride him all cooped up in a stall, or he would be rearing and pawing the sky after about 3 days, and if I were to show him at Devon, I would therefore request accommodation to the lunging. There are many people with lots of disabilities who ride and use riding therapuetically as well, whom want a good horse like everyone else that is challenging for their skill level despite their disabilities. If a person with a physical injury or disability had to be confined to old bomproof nags because Devon doesn't allow lunging in any manner for safety, I would rather think that is a segregation to a lesser horse and lesser opportunity not allowed by the ADA. But beyond that, why would someone want to compromise safety in this insurance and litigation age anyway? Bad common sense and bad business. Don't get me wrong, I love Devon. It is just that sometimes people make these rules without using their brains to think about them first and the true impact on others. Hopefully, next years Devon will be more inclusive, as has been its tradition.

Pocket Pony
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:31 AM
Cellos Pride, can you contribute to a topic without bringing up disabilities?

Check out Miles (http://community.webshots.com/album/106154542OSmOQC?813), the real Pocket Pony!

OneonOne
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
I wonder how that would accommodate a disabled person whom needs their horse to be quite for safety reasons, especially with the drug and medication rules.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I'm probably going to get grilled for this, but here goes...

My horse can get pretty hot too, so it would be in the best interest of my safety for him to have a chance to blow off steam too.

And are you suggesting that the drug rules should be amended so that a disabled person can take the edge off their horse?

_____________________________________
Any coupon works! Beware of paper cuts!

Nickelodian
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pocket Pony:
Cellos Pride, can you contribute to a topic without bringing up disabilities?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In a word...no.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

Pixie Dust
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:36 AM
So maybe people who are disadvantaged because they don't ride so well should be allowed to longe.....yeah, that's the ticket. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

Anne
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:37 AM
"Too bad it is off limits this year at Devon. I wonder how that would accommodate a disabled person whom needs their horse to be quite for safety reasons, especially with the drug and medication rules."

Cello, reread MHM's post and my post. Lunging is not off limits at Devon anymore than it ever has been. You are allowed to lunge to your heart's content AFTER the show is over or before it starts. Quite frankly, if I were competing at Devon and someone claimed they needed to lunge while the show was going on because they were "disabled", I would complain mightily. If everyone else can lunge at night or in the early morning, than you should make arrangements to do so, too.

I'd love to show at Devon under that sign, but I don't do 3'6. Should I claim that I am disabled because I don't find the jumps as well as other riders do, and try to get USEF to let me show? I think not!!!

Just so you know, Cello, I am all for accomodating people with legitimate disabilities in public places and in the workforce, as necessary. However, I don't think mainstream horse shows should have to bend over backwards to accomodate people who don't feel they should have to play by the rules.

As for your other question, the Parrothead Clique refers to the musician Jimmy Buffett. A parrothead is a Jimmy Buffett fan and has nothing to do with actual avians.

wanderlust
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:37 AM
Okay, I know I shouldn't even go here, but someone PLEASE explain to me how "no lungeing during show hours" is "bad common sense and bad business", as well as "compromising safety"?

cellospride, people lungeing horses in the same place people are riding horses and handling youngsters is DANGEROUS. Period, end of story. So you are now suggesting that we put others in danger so that those with disabilities can lunge their horses so that *they* don't get hurt?

That is one of the most bizarre arguments I've heard someone educated at law school make. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

KMZ
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:38 AM
you can Longe in the wee hours at Devon, and you can hack in the rings as well, as school the only thing you cannot do is Longe your horse while the show is in progress, you can certainly ride during the show in the schooling areas etc.

rileyt
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:40 AM
Oh no... here we go again...

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:43 AM
PocketPony, I didn't bring up disabilties at all when I talked about the character of ponies, and some other topics. I couldn't help myself, it was my first thought, about safety, that is. Ever since I took First Year Torts class, it ruined me.

Jezebel
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:43 AM
That makes more sense! I can understand "no lunging" while the show is going on. Most shows will allow you to lunge during the night.

Jezebel
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
It seems to me back when I showed "Piece O' Cake" at Devon there was some limited lunging at wee hours, where I am not sure as Ronnie Mutch's grooms did it, because my horse was not rideable if she did not get turnout or lunged. I know when the National was at the Garden, lunging was allowed in the wee hours, about 3 a.m. because I actually got up and lunged at that fine hour of the morning. Too bad it is off limits this year at Devon. I wonder how that would accommodate a disabled person whom needs their horse to be quite for safety reasons, especially with the drug and medication rules.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You can ride your horse down, like everyone else does.

Medievalist
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:50 AM
Interesting. I wonder if they are suable for that under the ADA? It would be interesting to ask a lawyer about that. Anyone know?

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

CuriousGeorge
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:51 AM
Everyone is sue-able under the ADA! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

*****************************
I love stupid people; they're so entertaining!

Ketch
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:56 AM
Curious,
According to CellosPride, you mean? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Nickelodian
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:56 AM
Perhaps if you have a disability you should show at the special olypics instead. Then you can lunge and tranq all you want.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

rileyt
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:56 AM
In a word, no.

As someone said, anyone is "sue-able". But if the question is, would a disabled person be able to sue Devon because they only allow lungeing at the wee hours of the morning... I think the answer would be no.

tyedyecommando
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:57 AM
I would think that disabled person would get up at the crack of dawn like the non-disabled people to lunge.

Now correct me if I understand it wrong, but the ADA was created to allow disabled people equal opportunities, but not "special" treatment. For example, ramps are to be installed to make buildings with staircases accessible, but they are not required to put in elevators or those handy lift dealies. Likewise at a show, someone with a disability could not be disallowed to lunge when all the nondisabled lunged, but there is not reason to have a special "handicap" lunge time. If you make something avalible to one group, you must make it avalible to all.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"No, that's wrong, Cartman. But don't worry, there are no stupid answers, just stupid people."
- Mr. Garrison, South Park

CuriousGeorge
Apr. 21, 2004, 11:58 AM
Or the IHSA, since in some instances those horses get the hound lunged out of them and then get happy drugs too!

*****************************
I love stupid people; they're so entertaining!

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:02 PM
Well, the thread started "No Lunging at Devon" and that was "in the Prize List." No one has a problem lunging in the wee hours or after the show, only from lunging being banned completely, which is how the thread started out. This sort of trend has begun to take hold at some shows in California, where there are turnout paddocks sold for weeks at the big shows to those who can afford them, but not available to others. And why shouldn't safety be a concern? Or do we prize the first place trophy without regard for safety?

As for Wanderdust, those are your words, not mine -- don't put words in my mouth I never intended to convey. I would imagine if a person has won a National HOTY they well know what is "dangerous" from what is not, having jumped at many a horse show in the process. If you have a problem understanding lawyers and lawyers to be, I suggest you call your local Congressman and outlaw them from the planet. We would all be better off with horses and without lawyers.

Sorry, Anne, I missed your post. No one is saying disabled people don't have to "play by the rules," but at the same time rules which affect disabled people adversely sometimes have to be modified so all people can have the same opportunity. I read the first couple posts and missed some that followed. My apologies.

rileyt
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:16 PM
Cello - Are you actually a lawyer? or do you just play one on TV?

ClemsonGraduateRider
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:18 PM
So I suppose since I am deaf in one ear I should force all the shows to provide me with a personal set of headphones so that when the wind is blowing and my bad ear is to the PA System it is gauranteed that I can hear the announcements?? PUHLEASE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Cello, if your horse is so hot no one else could get a good ride out of her yet you can, why would you need lungeing since you appear to be a perfectly competent rider? I mean if you can handle the hotness but no one else can why do you need lungeing? Everyone else's horses are cooped up in stalls too, they get up to lunge if they need it bad enough, as should a disabled person if they felt they needed the lunge.

Should we lower the rims and make the court shorter in the NBA to accomodate disabled people who may have the basketball talent but not the strenght, size or stamina? Come on. It's a game, if you want to play, play by the rules.

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love

Ketch
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:20 PM
I believe Cello has stated that she graduated from law school but has not yet passed the bar. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Any bar, for that matter. Although I do believe she has sat for it at least once.

Just here to be of service. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:22 PM
Jezebel, my horse is not one you can "ride down." He could gallop a grand prix field for 6 hours and still be revved up like the Energizer Bunny. Let's just say he has a mental disability and if he doesn't get his turnout (at home) or lunging (at shows), well, he just doesn't like to behave because it is all in his head. When you have a legimate method that works, like lunging for 15-20 minutes just to let him think he got out to squeal and play, why not do what works?

tydyecommando, that's pretty good. At least someone here can discuss the ADA intelligently. You are right in your analysis. My only concern was if there were no lunging at all. That would be dire for some people and horses.

rileyt, as you pose the question, you are right, also, but I suppose on a different claim, if you ask can Devon be sued, well I wouldn't want to be the gopher for the unpopular attorney who would take on that cause and I can't really say, but the United States Supreme Court case of PGA Tours which said the National golfing tours were liable to change their walking rule in elite golfing classics comes to mind (person wasn't able to walk that far). I know dressage riders have asked for sitting trot/posting trot "dispensations" or accommodations before.

Nicolodean, there you go again, another 'segregate the disabled somewhere else' and 'attribute bad conduct to them' barrier. The disabled have the right, believe it or not, to choose the Special Olympics if that conditional program is all they feel they can do, or the regular Olympics like anyone else, if they feel they have that level of skill and a horse to compensate. People who have to lunge don't equate to people whom drug horses just because it is attractive to make unfair assumptions about people you don;t like for what they are, but it is a superficially appealing fallacious argument form. Don't count me among those whom have to drug horses to be successful. All my guy needs is a little turnout or lunge time out. That's no big deal.

Go-Go
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:22 PM
So, back to the subject... what time to people start lunging? What time do they call it off?

rileyt
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:22 PM
Her profile says that she passed the California Bar in 1997...

????

Ketch
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:24 PM
Then let her explain it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif As far as I know, she is not a member of the California bar. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tyedyecommando
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Should we lower the rims and make the court shorter in the NBA to accomodate disabled people who may have the basketball talent but not the strenght, size or stamina? Come on. It's a game, if you want to play, play by the rules.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
They need to just start a under 7 foot NBA for us disabled short people. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"No, that's wrong, Cartman. But don't worry, there are no stupid answers, just stupid people."
- Mr. Garrison, South Park

RioTex
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
...and my 17 hand TB jumper is definitely not "pretty darn bombproof;" in fact, he is so hot and sensitive I have yet to see someone able to jump him other than myself<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So if the horse is virtually unrideable by anyone but you, you have obviously overcome any obstacles your disability may have presented and should not require any special consideration to show the animal, right?

If he is a horse that needs to be lunged, that has nothing to do with anyone's disablity or lack thereof.

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

Pixie Dust
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
All my guy needs is a little turnout or lunge time out. That's no big deal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So the disability is irrelevent.

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

ClemsonGraduateRider
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Jezebel, my horse is not one you can "ride down." He could gallop a grand prix field for 6 hours and still be revved up like the Energizer Bunny. Let's just say he has a mental disability and if he doesn't get his turnout (at home) or lunging (at shows), well, he just doesn't like to behave because it is all in his head. When you have a legimate method that works, like lunging for 15-20 minutes just to let him think he got out to squeal and play, why not do what works?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So um, you can't ride him down but you can lunge him down? I have to say that I think the pefectly legitimate method here is riding through it. And if you can't ride through it, which if I recall some other horseshows correctly, has nothing to do with whether you have a disability or not http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love

FairWeather
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Jezebel, my horse is not one you can "ride down." He could gallop a grand prix field for 6 hours and still be revved up like the Energizer Bunny. Let's just say he has a mental disability and if he doesn't get his turnout (at home) or lunging (at shows), well, he just doesn't like to behave because it is all in his head. When you have a legimate method that works, like lunging for 15-20 minutes just to let him think he got out to squeal and play, why not do what works? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's a pretty easy solution to that problem.

DONT GO TO DEVON.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

MHM
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:32 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Go-Go:
So, back to the subject... what time to people start lunging? What time do they call it off?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Depends how long you want to wait in line to get a lunging spot, how long you plan to be out there, and how many horses you have. Early birds might start at 1:00 or 2:00 AM, then take a nap. Others might start at 3:00 or 4:00 AM, planning to be finished with all lunging by 6:00 or 7:00, when the rings get dragged or schooling starts.

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:33 PM
Ketch, I passed the California Bar Examination, but have been litigating with the California Supreme Court Chief Justice and the Florida Board of Bar Examiners over the idea you pass the bar examinations "with" certain accommodations but then there is no follow through with those same accommodations in the Courts. If you want to read about it, go to American Bar Association Journal, I believe it was Aug. 22, 2003, Letter to the Editor written by my attorney-husband. That is just FYI, and we will see how the challenge comes out, but as for providing headphones to a deaf rider, or even modifying the order of go or providing a course printout earlier to certin types of disabled people who have short-term memory problems, I think those are probably fair game. I know there are over 17,000 listed suggestions of accommodations on the JAN Network. I know people always want to say the "disadvantaged" should not get "preferences," but actually the first term is a little derogatory and as for the preferences, I believe the United States Supreme Court said in Braniff v. United Airways that the disabled do indeed get preferences to build that "ramp" they need to participate on an equal basis, so to speak.

I am still amazed at the fallout from little suggestions here and there for consideration for the disabled in the way things are done and the rules we have. Disabled people love horses as much as everyone else.

Go-Go
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:34 PM
Thank you MHM. Now y'all can get back to feeding that troll.

SoNotaDQ
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:34 PM
OK, well, a social/emotional disorder is very different from a very limiting physical disorder. You know your hot horse. You know how to ride him. You are an adult and understand the risk of riding a hot horse with a cervical injury. That is a risk you have made an adult decision to take. Get up and lunge in the wee hours with the rest of the people lunging in the wee hours. lunging in limited space is dangerous for *everyone*. The good of all rules over the good of one

RioTex
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:35 PM
Not that I will ever get to Devon, but it sure makes me glad that my bunch of deadheads would sooner sleep than go round and round in the middle of the night.

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

PeanutButterCup
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:35 PM
Exactly what I was going to say FW. If the horse is really that unrideable without lunging and you know that there will be absolutely no lunging allowed at a given show, find another show that will better fit your needs. This has nothing to do with having a disability.

ClemsonGraduateRider
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:38 PM
SWEET! I can get headphones for my deafness and a printed out course for short term memory problems caused by brain hemoraghing. I'm off to write lots of letters http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

- - - - - -
"I found my inner bitch and ran with her." ~ Courtney Love

joliemom
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:38 PM
HI CP - I checked the ABA Journal for that date and am not sure if I've located the letter to the editor written by your attorney spouse. Could you let me know which one it is? I'd like to read it. Many thanks!

The Irish MPs are not after 'Me frosted lucky charms'.

Tiramit
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nickelodian:
Perhaps if you have a disability you should show at the special olypics instead. Then you can lunge and tranq all you want.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ouch, that was tacky! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Just so you know, the Special Olympics Equestrian Games defer to the USAEquestrian, FEI, and AQHA rules. In other words, tranqs aren't allowed either.

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

Ketch
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:42 PM
So, CP, since that rigamarole made my head hurt, are you admitted? Or not?

Joliemom, I, too, am unable to locate such a letter. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

ishmael
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:51 PM
Ketch, I think what she's saying is that she passed the bar with certain accomodations (I suppose extra time or breaks or something) and wants the same extra time or breaks or whatever to file motions/argue etc. in court, but can't get it? That's the implication, anyway....

Madison
Apr. 21, 2004, 12:53 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ketch:
So, CP, since that rigamarole made my head hurt, are you admitted? Or not?

Joliemom, I, too, am unable to locate such a letter. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ketch, the full explanation is here lawyer thread (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=735607971&r=191600081#191600081)

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

Ketch
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:02 PM
Ugh, now my head REALLY hurts. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But the bottom line, I gather, is that she is NOT a member in good standing with the California bar, or any bar for that matter. Correct, CP? Just wondering, for the next time you threaten to sue the pants off of COTH. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:02 PM
SonotaDQ, I never had any quibble with lunging at 3 a.m. To reiterate, I only read the first couple messages and thought there was no lunging at all at Devon. I agree with everything you said, you are right.

As for the idea that riding down is "better" than turnout or lunging, we all have our professional opinions about the merits of each. I don't suppose my horse would be unrideable by some really good riders, but I have not seen one yet that has been on him. Most people get scared after the first ride. I would love to see someone like Norman Dello Joio or Anne Kursinski ride him, and I am sure it would be a real pleasure, not just for me to watch but for them to ride. He just is very difficult, but he can jump the moon and fast.

As for no turnout or lunging, it is a matter of safety as he rears almost straight up and paws the air and strikes at people if he doesn't get out. Bucks and kicks in his stall because he can't contain himself. That's just the way he is. When he had surgery about 2 1/2 years ago, after the first week of handwalking without turnout or lunging, he had to be tranqued two times a day just to safely walk him according to vet orders. He almost got my daughter in his exuberance. As long as he has his turnout or lunging, he is fine, no rearing, nothing really unsafe.

Why does lunging make a difference? Well, if you have a cervical injury, you lunge so you don't get more whiplash to the neck than is necessary. Maybe some people like the bucking bronco rodeo show, but participation in one is not really necessary to accomplish the tasks of showing successfully and riding safely. There are other ways to deal with these problems (and not drugging). If my horse gets too fresh, he gets revved up and starts bouncing about 3' off the ground at the canter and can actually canter in place. It's not that I can't ride that, just that it causes nerve root compression and inflammation in the cervical area from too much of it, and bouncing up and down while going nowhere doesn't get the jumper times he gets when he has the edge off and just gallops. So, while it was a good try to make the superficially appealing argument that lunging has nothing to do with a disability, it is quite inaccurate and based on mis-conceptions. Another mis-conception is that all mental disabilities are "emotional/social" disorders, which is also inaccurate as people aith autistic spectrum disabilities do not necessarily have an emotional disorder, only a communication one -- and that is why they have trouble interacting.

And why should I not go to Devon if I think my horse could take a championship there and I qualify him? Because the disabled people only get to go to the Western Wyoming Ride and Tie? An example of a paternalistic barrier, others thinking they know what is best for the disabled. No, I would rather ask the show I want to go to to make a small modification in a rule if it is really an obstacle to being able to compete there and the modification can be made. It's not like asking for the elimination of all oxers on a jump course to fundamentally change the nature of the competition.

Erin
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:08 PM
Knock it off, guys... if you want to talk about lunging at Devon, go for it. Otherwise, drop it. And lay off the personal insults.

Everythingbutwings
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And why shouldn't safety be a concern? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Safety IS the concern for crying out loud. There isn't enough room for anyone to hog up the individual space that a lungeing circle takes when classes are in session and people who are showing need to warm up.

It's all about being FAIR to everyone and not letting selfish people interfere with those who can follow rules of common courtesy and practice safe horsemanship.

From what you have stated, your horse isn't safe out in public. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I've been to Devon the past three years to help friends and to observe. People sleep in the barn with their horses, they get up when they need to in order to provide exercise. It's called horse sport and working at oh dark thirty is the norm in all of it, whether it's galloping thoroughbreds at the track or preparing for a horse show in the city.

Lungeing isn't allowed at WIHS during the show, either for the same reasons.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

eclipse
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:16 PM
Hmmmm, up here horses that are deemed dangerous & unmanageable by the show steward, will be asked to leave the grounds! CP, have you ever had to leave a show ground due to your horses behaviour? And, JMO, but if my horse was unmanageable at shows without a "small" lunge then I'd have to seriously think about showing said horse again. I mean, just think of the lawsuits if your horse is having one of his "episodes" and was to accidently kick someone during a rear & leap. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Wouldn't you be liable, seeing as you knowingly took this horse, knowing he would act this way???

"Don't bother me; I'm living happily ever after!"

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:19 PM
Ketch, you would be correct if the "good standing" assumption were eliminated. The case is not final and that has never been finally determined whether a person is somehow of "bad character" because they can't place pleadings in written format absent dictation, as the United States Supreme Court kicked it back to California. The gist of the bar admission fight is the Chief Justice in California and the Clerk of Court believe that people without arms, quadraplegics, and people with autism or learning disabilities should be blanket excluded from bar membership in that state because of the type of accommodation they require -- dictation, large print, and extra time. And they told my husband and I that in unequivocal terms. I don't happen to agree. I think if a person is allowed to qualify with these accommodations by passing the State's Bar Examination, then they can't be denied "good standing" or any standing because even a Chief Justice thinks those kinds of disabilities should not be allowed. It seems like a Chief Justice thought he could put the Ten Comandments in the Court rotunda, too, but he was since been told otherwise.

At least Florida is more enlightened, Chief Justice Harry Lee Anstead planning to hand off the gavel to a disabled person, the next Chief Justice Barbara Pariente. I don't suppose a cancer survivor is going to have such a difficult time with a $1000 voice activated computer software system, which can be purchased by Bar Examiners, for which they get a $10,000 tax credit, which can be loaned out for 1-2 years of law practice and thereafter provided by the disabled attorney herself. The ADA requires "ramps" to be built, this is one way of doing that. And, Ketch, I never threatened to sue the pants off COTH. I like COTH. At least they have some sensitivity to the disabled and have published articles about disabled riders. But I am also not one to remain silent in the face of strong animosity toward the disabled or some very inaccurate misconceptions or animus-motivated attacks that do no one any good.

The ABA J. article was Aug. 22, 2003, "On Behalf of Those Who Can't Celebrate"

Rye
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:28 PM
hmmmm....I think the rule is really rather interesting. In the absence of lunging, if said horse is too hot for the rider to handle then perhaps either a)rider needs a more mellow animal b)rider needs more training or c)horse needs more training or d)rider should get there in the wee hours of the morning and hack the horse or e) don't show at Devon.

Based upon the show ground facilities, I don't think any person can expect that a place to lunge is their god-given right.

Common sense might tell you that if your horse has to be lunged or ridden down in order to not be a wild maniac, that perhaps the horse needs more training or perhaps is not suited to the environment to which you are exposing it?

Pixie Dust
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:28 PM
Since longing IS allowed at Devon, then this entire argument is moot!

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

HFbellefille
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:30 PM
Who knew four pages of replies would be generated on longing at Devon? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~*Kate*~
Tufts Equestrian Team "We'll Ride Anything"

poltroon
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:36 PM
I was really pleased when USEF altered the dressage rules to make it easy to apply for accommodations for special equipment and other simple changes for disabled riders. The story I always remember is that the rule said you had to salute with one hand on the reins and one hand out, and there was a rider with only one arm who had to ride HC until the rule was modified.

I don't see how restrictions on lunging would specifically limit a disabled rider. As Snowbird likes to say, it's a HORSE show - designed to show off the greatness of the horse. If your horse cannot remain obedient under the circumstances presented, that all the horses must endure, then maybe he doesn't deserve the big prize. There have always been some horses (including famous jumpers) that are better indoors, and some that are better outdoors. When space is limited, as it is at Devon, lunging is dangerous to the people trying to ride in that same space. It's a simple matter of practicality. If the Devon grounds don't suit your horse, don't show there. There are plenty of A shows held in more open venues (Indio and Wellington come to mind) with just as much prestige where you can lunge to your heart's content.

I venue-shop all the time. My horse is picky about footing, so I don't like to take her places where the footing isn't good. (One place I know restricts lunging to an area where the footing is IMHO too deep to be safe.) There are some places that are inconvenient to drive to. There are some places that have wonderful weather and convenient parking that are a joy to show at. No big deal.

scrubs
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:37 PM
What do you call 3 lawyers at the bottom of the ocean?

A good start!

CellosPride
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:43 PM
Eclipse, my horse is very predictable and does not have "episodes" at shows when he gets his little lunge with no more than one day in between. Ruled off show grounds? Not hardly, he won more than 27 jumper classes, more seconds than that, and about 8 champtionships in just a handful of shows.

Rye, my horse is one of the best trained jumpers you will find at his jumper level and I do not lack riding skill. The rest is your professional opinion of which people can disagree. The problem is not one of lack of training, but rather he has a lot of energy and needs a 15-20 minute turnout or lunge (not even a lunge till he drops). Not everyone rides a warmblood.

I think Everythingbutwings simply didn't read my posts. My whole point was safety is a concern and that is why lunging should be allowed. I also said I lunge like everyone else in the wee hours of the morning, and anyone who knows me would never accuse me of not being a hard worker despite my disabilities. And, there we go again, "hogging up the lunging area?" Putting words in my mouth I never said. Actually, at 3 am, there are usually very few hardy souls out there lunging, so space is not ordinarily at such a premium. And, yes, I do think a show would have to provide a lunging area or time available or incur the risk someone would challenge that right. That is my opinion, and I am sure that there are those who will disagree but then that is the reason we are not a world of clones.

Thanks Erin. I hope someday this board will be a friendlier more tolerant place for the free discussion of ideas. In the meantime, I have a horse to ride, so I don't know why people would rather pick on a one line comment I made as an aside than talk about lunging at Devon. But I have other things to do and can't stay around correcting inaccurate information, assumptions, and misconceptions about me or my horse. I think his show record speaks for itself.

Nickelodian
Apr. 21, 2004, 01:58 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:

Nicolodean, there you go again, another 'segregate the disabled somewhere else' and 'attribute bad conduct to them' barrier. The disabled have the right, believe it or not, to choose the Special Olympics if that conditional program is all they feel they can do, or the regular Olympics like anyone else, if they feel they have that level of skill and a horse to compensate. People who have to lunge don't equate to people whom drug horses just because it is attractive to make unfair assumptions about people you don;t like for what they are, but it is a superficially appealing fallacious argument form. Don't count me among those whom have to drug horses to be successful. All my guy needs is a little turnout or lunge time out. That's no big deal.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right, the disabled have the right to choose either. But you're the one who mentioned "strict drugging rules" and that being a reason that disabled persons should lunge at any time, not me. So regardless of how "superficially appealing fallacious argument form" it was, if a person feels as though they can compete in the regular olympics then they should be able to follow the rules of the regular olympics. If any sort of special treatment is needed, then they belong in the special olympics.

Which reminds me..anyone want to start an "average rider" olympics? I would be game.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

elizabeth
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:01 PM
As an officer of the court who has often had opportunity to eat bagels with cream cheese and green apples for breakfast, lunch, AND dinner, I would be remiss if I did not chime in.

I have dreamed, two nights in a row, about the fellow I dated in college. I dumped him, and I rue the day I made that foolish, foolish decision. He's married now, with a wife and two kids. God bless you, Donny. I can't believe, over ten years later, I am feeling this way.

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:08 PM
I remember Donny...

elizabeth
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
I remember Donny...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Did you date Donny, also? I suspected as much. You and I are kindred.

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:22 PM
Elizabeth....never would I have gone behind your back... That does not mean I wasn't LUSTING after Donny, however. I do recall thinking that you were somewhat of a dumb#^% for letting him go.

elizabeth
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:24 PM
I know, I know. He was cute, wasn't he? I still have the picture that was made into a magnet at our firm summer picnic.

For some reason, like a year or two ago, my mom mentioned that she was stunned when I let Donny go. Mom, Mom, Mom, why didn't you STOP me?

Oh Donny, Donny. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:26 PM
Why don't we just blame it on all the lungeing you have done at Devon over the years??? Better now?

elizabeth
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:32 PM
Are you trying to make me WEEP xegeba? I never MADE it to Devon.

Maybe I never made it because I never had a horse who needed lunging. There's the reality. The system kept me down because I never had a horse who needed lunging.

I need to go now to a reception here at my job. But I'm with you in spirit, xegeba. And if anyone knows what became of Donny Chrysler, let me know.

Jezebel
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
SonotaDQ, I never had any quibble with lunging at 3 a.m. To reiterate, I only read the first couple messages and thought there was no lunging at all at Devon. I agree with everything you said, you are right.

As for the idea that riding down is "better" than turnout or lunging, we all have our professional opinions about the merits of each. I don't suppose my horse would be unrideable by some really good riders, but I have not seen one yet that has been on him. Most people get scared after the first ride. I would love to see someone like Norman Dello Joio or Anne Kursinski ride him, and I am sure it would be a real pleasure, not just for me to watch but for them to ride. He just is very difficult, but he can jump the moon and fast.

As for no turnout or lunging, it is a matter of safety as he rears almost straight up and paws the air and strikes at people if he doesn't get out. Bucks and kicks in his stall because he can't contain himself. That's just the way he is. When he had surgery about 2 1/2 years ago, after the first week of handwalking without turnout or lunging, he had to be tranqued two times a day just to safely walk him according to vet orders. He almost got my daughter in his exuberance. As long as he has his turnout or lunging, he is fine, no rearing, nothing really unsafe.

Why does lunging make a difference? Well, if you have a cervical injury, you lunge so you don't get more whiplash to the neck than is necessary. Maybe some people like the bucking bronco rodeo show, but participation in one is not really necessary to accomplish the tasks of showing successfully and riding safely. There are other ways to deal with these problems (and not drugging). If my horse gets too fresh, he gets revved up and starts bouncing about 3' off the ground at the canter and can actually canter in place. It's not that I can't ride that, just that it causes nerve root compression and inflammation in the cervical area from too much of it, and bouncing up and down while going nowhere doesn't get the jumper times he gets when he has the edge off and just gallops. So, while it was a good try to make the superficially appealing argument that lunging has nothing to do with a disability, it is quite inaccurate and based on mis-conceptions. Another mis-conception is that all mental disabilities are "emotional/social" disorders, which is also inaccurate as people aith autistic spectrum disabilities do not necessarily have an emotional disorder, only a communication one -- and that is why they have trouble interacting.

And why should I not go to Devon if I think my horse could take a championship there and I qualify him? Because the disabled people only get to go to the Western Wyoming Ride and Tie? An example of a paternalistic barrier, others thinking they know what is best for the disabled. No, I would rather ask the show I want to go to to make a small modification in a rule if it is really an obstacle to being able to compete there and the modification can be made. It's not like asking for the elimination of all oxers on a jump course to fundamentally change the nature of the competition.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have the same type of horse and yes it is much easier to lunge the horse vs riding him down.
Sometimes situations don't allow you perfect conditions, so you have to have a plan "B".

I went to the Metropolitan Horse Show and cried when I saw the size of the schooling ring. I knew I couldn't lunge and was concerned if I could even get him settled in such a small area.
On show day, I was up at 1:30am and riding my horse in the ring at 2:30am.
It wasn't fun and it sure was an inconvience, but I did what I needed to do to get the job done.

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:36 PM
Jezebel! Do you know where Donny is???

bigbay
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:44 PM
Well, if I'm thinking of the right Donny, he's been my personal groom at Indio for the past three years. Y'all trained him well, my thanks. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif He's excellent at lunging in the wee hours of the morning. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"It is good to be fine."

TSWJB
Apr. 21, 2004, 02:50 PM
why is everyone picking on CellosPride? she just stated her opinion. that doesn't make her a troll. disabled people do have to over come more than other people. so maybe it wouldn't be fair if she got an advantage to lunge her horse, but that is just what she thought would be correct. its just an opinion!

Mosby
Apr. 21, 2004, 03:08 PM
Who's Donny? Does he sell fruitbats?

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 03:40 PM
TSWJB... No one said Cellos was a troll. I for one , was not "picking on her" either. If you hadn't noticed things were taking a turn for the worse... until Liz . At least that is my perception of it...but I could have been duped. Have I been duped?

Mosby
Apr. 21, 2004, 03:45 PM
Pst - X - who's Donny?

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 03:51 PM
For some reason , this topic reminded Elizabeth of Donny, the one she let get away...

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 03:54 PM
Ring a bell Whoa There???? Perhaps if we could find Donny this thread could resume...

Mosby
Apr. 21, 2004, 03:56 PM
I -- think -- I'm -- catching -- on.... ouch, that was painful. Thanks, X, woulda thought about darn Donny all night. Rat bastard.

elizabeth
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:02 PM
I know where Donny is. With his wife. And two kids.

Oh, Donny, how could I let you go? &lt;&lt;sigh&gt;&gt; When you're 20, you can just dispose of good men like you dispose of sneezed-into tissues. . . .

Mosby
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:07 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif I still don't get it.

elizabeth
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:10 PM
Whoops. Sorry. There is nothing to get. It seemed to me that a slight diversion was in order on this topic, and since I wanted to talk about my troubling dream (about Donny Chrysler) last night, I threw that in there.

Have I mentioned I can't believe I dumped him? What was I thinking? Catholic, Italian, sweet, polite to me and my family, funny, cuter than anything.

And he would have bought me a fruitbat if I asked. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

Mosby
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:13 PM
Oh, gosh, Elizabeth, I'm so sorry to have brought up that sad memory, but thank you for filling me in. Sometimes I'm not very perceptive and I need to be whacked in the noggin with a fruitbat. And if I remember correctly, Donny's just the one to do it.

Everythingbutwings
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think Everythingbutwings simply didn't read my posts <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read every one on this topic. I also read the Devon prize list and commented that I was glad to see the rule and hoped that it would be enforced.

Totally confused as to how CP managed to turn a simple and obviously neccessary rule into a fusspot about discrimination and predjudice against disabled riders.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:18 PM
Does this mean this thread can resume??? There is an interesting thread going on over at O.C.

elizabeth
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
Wow....why'd you dump him?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My best recollection is that I dumped him because I thought I would outgrow him. I think I thought, at the time, that I wanted to have a fast-paced, big-city, exciting, turbo-charged life. And Donny wasn't about that. We never discussed it, mind you. I just decided that his schtick - family, stability, BBQs in the backyard, church on Sunday - wasn't where I wanted to be.

I ultimately got what I thought I wanted, but sometimes I wonder if I really knew what I wanted to begin with. Much too deep for this thread, but true nonetheless.

And, Whoa There, no worries about the sad memory. This was 11 years ago - I have no idea why last night, of all nights, I dreamed about him. Since I needed a diversionary post for this thread, I just posted about Donny.

Everythingbutwings
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:29 PM
Ooooh! Does it involve Betty, her husband and the Garden Gnomes?

I've been wondering how that relationship was working out.

On a serious note, I WILL be attending Devon (just like the past several years, on foot with camera in hand). I love Devon. You simply must have the experience to contrast with the elegance of Upperville. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:32 PM
Please, Please, Please Everything!!! NO LUNGEING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Coreene
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:33 PM
Let's go let's go let go let go
Down to junior's farm
Where I want to lay low
How life high life
Let's go let's go take me to the junior's farm.

____________________________
Don't nott to buy no ugly ass things for us to wear und then say it be a present for us, it don't nott to be, it be for you. - WILLEM

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:36 PM
Coreene, I'm having a WHoathere moment... or am I being duped again...

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:40 PM
Coreene...I could use a little help here.

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:43 PM
Anybody???

Tap2Tango
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:47 PM
Xegebra: I HATE dreams that bring up sad memories. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

~Steph
*Tapestry* 2000 Dutch WB mare by Contango
*TGFPT Clique*

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:50 PM
Tap, it wasn't my dream, it was Elizabeth's. I just knew Donny(I think). However, if Coreene doesn't get back here , I will be dreaming about that little song. Who knows if the husband will be alive in the morning...

Tap2Tango
Apr. 21, 2004, 04:59 PM
Ohh right right right. This topic has me all mixed up! Lunging, dreams, disabilities its a mess!!

~Steph
*Tapestry* 2000 Dutch WB mare by Contango
*TGFPT Clique*

Coreene
Apr. 21, 2004, 05:04 PM
Junior's Farm. A song that has been in my head all day.

____________________________
Don't nott to buy no ugly ass things for us to wear und then say it be a present for us, it don't nott to be, it be for you. - WILLEM

xegeba
Apr. 21, 2004, 05:13 PM
Juniors Farm. Hmmmm. Don't know that one. I know the Funny Farm one which is where I'll feel like going if you don't tell me the correllation between Lungeing at Devon and Juniors Farm!!!!

Coreene
Apr. 21, 2004, 05:15 PM
No correlation, it's the same thing as peeps, salad shooters and Unresolved Pleasant Conversations. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

____________________________
Don't nott to buy no ugly ass things for us to wear und then say it be a present for us, it don't nott to be, it be for you. - WILLEM

Coca-Cola
Apr. 21, 2004, 07:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
And, Ketch, I never threatened to sue the pants off COTH. I like COTH. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, it was Fetlocks that she threatened to sue, but she felt everyone at COTH needed "sensitivity training" because she felt picked on due to her "invisible disability" that she never mentioned, but we were supposed to realize was there through osmosis.

As far as your horse, CP, if he behaves like that at shows, then regardless of sheer talent, it doesn't sound like he is a suitable show horse. He sounds down right dangerous. Find a new mount for shows with no longing. And his bad behavior has nothing to do with your having a disability; it has to do with you choosing to show a potentially dangerous horse.

You have cervical issues? I'd be willing to bet that 50% or more riders out there have some head, cervical or spinal injury issues. I know I do. Riding is the most dangerous sport there is. Injury is inherent in the sport.

Personally, I'm of the opinion there should be no longing. Learn to ride and learn to deal with whatever your horse throws at you. That's part of being a horseperson.

lilblackhorse
Apr. 21, 2004, 08:00 PM
I have a cervical injury as well--nerve damage and nasty changes to c5 &6. That's the way the ball bounces (or the rider doesn't after a great many years).

I don't nor would I expect anyone to give me special treament because of this injury or "disability"......it I didn't feel I could give my horse a good ride in a particular venue within the stated rules, then gee, I wouldn't go there. Simple as that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Devon is tiny--thank god they don't allow lunging during show hours--nothing like a loose horse galloping about dragging 40 ft of line behind them to add a little interest to a small arena. This shouldn't be rocket science.

Ellipses users clique....."I Hate Stall Rest", HYOOTGP,TGFPT http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif & PC alumni cliques
"What the fuh?" Robby Johnson

Black Market Radio
Apr. 21, 2004, 09:24 PM
hehe... you have a new nam X! You were called xegaBRA!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
When you take flour and water you make glue. Add eggs and sugar and you have cake. So where did the glue go? WHAT DO YOU THINK MAKES THE CAKE STICK TO YOUR BUTT???

CuriousGeorge
Apr. 22, 2004, 04:39 AM
I am not here to discuss CP's abilities or disabilities; that's her place if she chooses to do so.

However, people with trisomy 21 (Down's) do not always have every cell affected. Some people have the third copy of chromosome 21 only in some cells; this is called a mosaic pattern and these people are less severely affected.

*****************************
I love stupid people; they're so entertaining!

[This message was edited by CuriousGeorge on Apr. 22, 2004 at 09:00 AM.]

Ketch
Apr. 22, 2004, 05:49 AM
Curious. do people with Down's alway look as though they have Down's? E.g., is it evident from their appearance? I am truly asking because I don't know.

squeezix
Apr. 22, 2004, 05:57 AM
Cello said she has Down's? I don't think so. I read it as autism. Down's I'd doubt.

CuriousGeorge
Apr. 22, 2004, 06:01 AM
Like I said, I'm not commenting on any one individual's issues.

Ketch, I honestly don't know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif You know humans aren't my specialty.

*****************************
I love stupid people; they're so entertaining!

Riggs
Apr. 22, 2004, 06:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lilblackhorse:
I have a cervical injury as well--nerve damage and nasty changes to c5 &6. That's the way the ball bounces (or the rider doesn't after a great many years).

I don't nor would I expect anyone to give me special treament because of this injury or "disability"......it I didn't feel I could give my horse a good ride in a particular venue within the stated rules, then gee, I wouldn't go there. Simple as that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Hey LBH, me too! Only mine is C3 and C5 due to a bad horse-related accident. Finally at age 44, (I'm 51 now -eugghh) I gave it up because I was uneven, off balance and sore. Oh! and I own a Lil Black Horse! But someone else rides him. You can still be involved with horses after your effectiveness on top of them diminishes, doncha know!
And poor Elizabelth, we all have one that we 'let get away'! Be strong! Maybe he'll come up for divorce! In your court!

Mosby
Apr. 22, 2004, 06:50 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Coreene, I'm having a WHoathere moment... or am I being duped again...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Uh oh, have I become a descriptor? That can't be good... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Erin
Apr. 22, 2004, 06:54 AM
Second warning... get back on topic (and that topic would be lunging at Devon, in case you'd forgotten), or this gets closed.

Three strikes and you're out.

Nickelodian
Apr. 22, 2004, 06:55 AM
squeezix...do a search

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

squeezix
Apr. 22, 2004, 10:23 AM
Borderline Personality Disorder.

Ketch
Apr. 22, 2004, 10:48 AM
Okay, so as not to get closed, so yes lunging at 3 a.m. sucks! And for those who will be doing it this year, be sure to bring some layers . . . PA gets much cooler than I realized this time of year!

(Erin's not kidding about closing this, guys http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

CellosPride
Apr. 22, 2004, 10:49 AM
Squeezix, I could still have mosaiicism, but trisomy got ruled out, leaving either mosaiicism or autistic spectrum disorder, and the specific learning disabilities are confirmed. These disabilities are all part of a spectrum of degrees and interrelated as far as many impairing conditions. I do not have insurance coverage to afford the more extended type of testing for mosaiicism. So it is not conclusive that I do not have downs. As for people saying it is "invisible," well, there sure have been a lot of people on this board who have perceived and commented on one of the effects of my disabilities, writing that is too long and all these people, like Cocacola who are so unable to effectively read, understand or communicate between what I said and what others only think I said, that it is like two ships passing in the night. And all my life I have been rejected the moment people see my face because I have a slight downs look, like the day I was sent for a great paralegal position at Tampa's Fowler White Boggs and Banker, the accommodations were prearranged by an agency, and upon arrival and seeing my face, the human resources person told me the job was sudddenly off and prayed to God someone else would hire me, but they were not going to. So PLEASE, keep up the personal insults and attacks so everyone will know who exaclt here has character and who doesn't. Cocacola, I will repeat for about the third time -- my horse doesn't have episodes of bad behavior on the show grounds, he wins more than 50% of the classes in which he is entered. Can you do as well? But no lunging? Now THAT is something I definitely would put up a legal battle over, and not just for myself but all those like me who do need the safety lunging brings. And if there are those who do not like it, that is just too bad. Go tell it to your Congressman, because as things are people with disabilities have rights.

BLBGP
Apr. 22, 2004, 10:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But no lunging? Now THAT is something I definitely would put up a legal battle over, and not just for myself but all those like me who do need the safety lunging brings. And if there are those who do not like it, that is just too bad. Go tell it to your Congressman, because as things are people with disabilities have rights.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But it's been said over and over again that lunging is allowed at Devon, just not during show hours. There are no big shows (to my knowledge) that do not allow lunging no matter what, when, or where. Why is this argument still going on? Just for hypothetical purposes?

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:00 AM
Cellos... it is apparent that you have done a great job dealing with your disabilities. I suspect that you have a great deal to offer the world in all aspects of life. Coming from a family of Irish Lawyers( a whole butt-load of them) this is the one problem that I think you have when trying to get your point across... you tend to be overly verbose and a bit of a know it all, and then you seem to want to get in an argument when people disagree with you. Just an observation from a kid who could never get a word in edgewise at the dinner table....

Ketch
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:00 AM
Are you sure Fowler didn't hire you because you ranted and raved like this? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And, yes, lunging at Devon is allowed so the point is moot. Where (e.g., on what circuit) is it, CP, that your horse wins 50% of his classes? I am sincerely asking.

RioTex
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:08 AM
Well, Cellospride, does your Federation Dispensation Certificate grant you special lungeing privileges? Once your entry arrives with certificate attached, I am sure that show management would comply with any compensatory aids or adaptive equipment that your certificate lists.

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

Coca-Cola
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> As for people saying it is "invisible," well, there sure have been a lot of people on this board who have perceived and commented on one of the effects of my disabilities, writing that is too long and all these people, like Cocacola who are so unable to effectively read, understand or communicate between what I said and what others only think I said, that it is like two ships passing in the night.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Cellos, you were the one who said your disability was "non-visible". I can read just fine; perhaps you can't remember what you've STATED previously:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> By Cellos Pride in March 2003: Most mentally disabled people do not appear to have a disability, this is known as having a "non-visible" disability, in ADA terminology. And, if you think people with Down Syndrome all look like they "have it," I would encourage anyone interested to research Down Syndrome web sites on Google and just look at all the pictures of children who are so pretty and "normal" looking you cannot "tell" -- these are the ones who usually have mosaacism (extra 21st chromosome distributed in cell lines, rather than in every cell in the body). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Remember? It was the first time you threw your disability in our collective faces? Because we "should have known" that you had this "non-visible" disability by reading your posts...by osmosis

Erin
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:11 AM
CellosPride, the "no personal attacks" goes for you as well. If people aren't seeing your point, rather than slam them, maybe you should try clarifying instead.

If I could attempt to interject some common sense here...

I would be surprised if there were ANY h/j show out there that completely outlawed lunging. As others have mentioned, though, the space constraints of shows like Devon and indoors mean that it is flat-out unsafe -- if not completely impossible -- for horses to be lunged during "normal" hours. Hence the late-night lunge-a-thons. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

IF... ("if" being the keyword, because as I said above, I doubt any such situation exists) a show were to completely forbid lunging, common sense would dictate that YOU NOT GO TO THAT SHOW if you have a horse that absolutely positively requires lunging. If ones choose to ride a horse that has to be lunged, then one has to live with the consequences of that choice.

If you choose to ride a horse that spooks at flowers, do you have the right to insist a show not use flowers because of the safety issue that could happen if the horse spooks and throws you? Of course not. You either DON'T SHOW where there are flowers, or you sell your flora-phobic horse and buy something more suitable to hunterland. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Seems pretty cut and dried to me.

Ketch... you know that you have used up most of your leeway with me already. Back off.

CellosPride
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:22 AM
Erin, the no flowers would require modification of an "essential function," whereas the no lunging would only require modification of a "marginal function." So it is not so cut and dried, the former not being open to challenge, the latter would be. I think if people are going to continue disability-bashing, then something needs to be done to stop it, rather than continuing to make me defend myself. I have a slight downs look, that is considered in term of art to be a "non-visible disability." I am sure of there were race, gender, or alienage bashing going on someone would stop it.

Mosby
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:24 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Erin:
Seems pretty cut and dried to me.[QUOTE]

What if your horse is afraid of cut and dried flowers, too?

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:25 AM
Are you Irish,Cellos?????

BLBGP
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:27 AM
Seriously, why the passionate argument over a purely hypotheical situation? Why are we still arguing about this when lunging is allowed at Devon and all other major horse shows, just not necessarily during show hours?

Maybe we should start discussing more appropriate topics. Like: if they find life on Mars, and that life happens to be a whole herd of Rox Dene clones, can we import them and show them here? What if Martianbloods keep falling down in dirt rings and can only show on grass?

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:28 AM
Because BLBGP... Cellos is a lawyer and she could be Irish...

Ketch
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:30 AM
Erin,
Well put.

And I sent you a (very nice http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) PT.

RioTex
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RioTex:
Well, Cellospride, does your Federation Dispensation Certificate grant you special lungeing privileges?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not bashing, asking a legitimate question that hasn't been answered.

Trinity Hill Farm (http://www.trinityhillfarm.com)

tyedyecommando
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:32 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Now THAT is something I definitely would put up a legal battle over, and not just for myself but all those like me who do need the safety lunging brings. And if there are those who do not like it, that is just too bad. Go tell it to your Congressman, because as things are people with disabilities have rights. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not necessarily directed at anyone, but...

The key thing is that no show HAS to let you lunge, though they allow it on the grounds. Think of the number of horses (and $$$) it would cut out though if they didn't allow it to happen and exibitors didn't attend. I don't necessarily see it as a "safety" issue, I see it as more than a suitability issue because sadly the majority of the day at a show is spent in the stall. If the horse (or rider) can't handle not being able to be turned out or lunged to get the crazies out, maybe they are not in the place best suited for their personalities. Regardless of how many classes they can win after being lunged, they are not suited for the lifestyle.

~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*
"No, that's wrong, Cartman. But don't worry, there are no stupid answers, just stupid people."
- Mr. Garrison, South Park

Duffy
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:34 AM
I think my disabilities warrant the judge being able to ignore one jump of each of my courses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Seriously, I commend what you have been able to accomplish in your life, Cellos, regardless of your disabilities. However, it's hard to be sympathetic when you continue to brag out one side of your mouth, accuse fellow posters of being disability-bashers out another side, all the while singing oh woe is me.

"B***h in training"

Coreene
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:43 AM
I want a special eq class for large gals. Then I would win. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

____________________________
Don't nott to buy no ugly ass things for us to wear und then say it be a present for us, it don't nott to be, it be for you. - WILLEM

Erin
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:44 AM
I don't know that I would call lunging "essential"... there are plenty of horses out there that do just fine without it, and certainly the vast majority of horses who ARE lunged are not lunged because of safety issues -- they're lunged because they'll pin better in hunter classes when they're a little tired and not fresh.

Again, if one chooses to ride a horse that REQUIRES lunging to be safe, when there are thousands of other horses out there that DO NOT require it, then it seems logical that one has to live with the consequences of that decision. Just MHO though...

As an aside, I don't see any disability-bashing going on, CellosPride. What I do see are people who are irritated by your posting style. To be perfectly blunt... you brag, you attack, and you drag the ADA into EVERY discussion in which you participate. It is off-putting, to say the least. You may not realize it, but you are playing a large part in creating the reactions you're getting.

This is an anonymous internet forum... there's somewhat of an "art" to communicating effectively with people you've never met and aren't seeing face-to-face.

Perhaps your communication problems are related to your disability... I have no idea. But attacking people for not receiving your posts well IS NOT going to help. It is only going to make things worse.

If your disability makes it impossible for you to post in a different manner, and if you're going to continue to lash out at people when they are put off by your posts, well then, you might have to resign yourself to the fact that you're probably going to continue to get this kind of reception. Getting pissed off every time it happens isn't going to change things -- it's going to continue to alienate people.

If you can't live with the reaction you're getting, and you can't find a way to communicate more effectively and less confrontationally, maybe posting on an Internet BB isn't a very good idea for you. You're certainly welcome to post here, and I will slap people's hands if they don't follow the rules, but I can't force the other members of the BB to embrace you if you continue posting in this manner.

Also, realize that this is a HORSE BB. We are here to talk about horses. While you are obviously VERY interested in disability issues, you need to understand that most of us here are not. We want to talk about horses, not the ADA. I would be willing to bet that you wouldn't be encountering all this animosity if you stopped mentioning the ADA at every turn.

Pixie Dust
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:47 AM
I truly don't see the disability bashing going on. And the beauty of the internet is that we don't judge by a person's look....it's all about what they say and how they say it.

You have stated over and over that *your* horse needs to be longed. Can't you see that the issue is *your* horse, and not any disability. You chose to ride a horse that needs to be longed. I chose to ride a horse that doesn't need to be longed. It's a choice.

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

RugBug
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:51 AM
Hypothetically, because it's already been well established that you can, in fact, longe at Devon, if a show were to not allow anyone to longe, wouldn't the detriment done to riders who feel the need to longe be the same, regardless of a disability, therefore there is no discrimination?

All riders have a choice about which horse they buy/ride. If they cannot have a horse with excess energy, why would they buy one that needs to be longed in order to be ridden? If the rider, disability or not, chooses a horse that needs to be longed at shows because it's the horse that will win, then they are also accepting the consequences and shouldn't ask for special dispensation because of that choice. There are winning horses out there that don't need to be longed at shows. It's the rider's responsibility to pick one that is suitable.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were." --Buffy

Sam Iam
Apr. 22, 2004, 12:00 PM
Wow, what a topic.

Erin, your last post was very well done.

Cellos, a question for you. I am honestly interested in more information on your disability. If you choose not to share it that is your decision and I respect it. You mentioned that your disability causes you not to be able to communicate well. Yet, you seem to write very well and have an extensive vocabulary. You also have apparently passed The Bar. Had you not stated it, I never would have guessed that you had a disability that hampered you ability to communicate. I'm just curious what limitations you're dealing with.

Erin, if this post is inappropriate, please delete it.

Tiramit
Apr. 22, 2004, 12:27 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Coming from a family of Irish Lawyers( a whole butt-load of them) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are we related??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Perhaps in the swarm of lawyers, we missed each other at family picnics and such?

As for the need to longe just because a horse hasn't had turnout and needs out of his stall, how about taking it out on a walk around the grounds prior to hacking? And yes, I've been known to do this with young TB's who start off the walk on 2 legs, but they eventually settle down. I look at is not only a bonding moment, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif, but as a training moment. They learn how to conduct themselves in the middle of a showgrounds WITHOUT the 30-40 minutes of mindless energy wear-down.

Since I'm not such an early-riser, that's how I'd handle the no longe rule. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

eclipse
Apr. 22, 2004, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cellospride: he wins more than 50% of the classes in which he is entered. Can you do as well? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, yes I can & no I don't lunge! I do agree with the no lunging during show hours, but have never seen a show that disallows it after show hours.

"Don't bother me; I'm living happily ever after!"

Jezebel
Apr. 22, 2004, 01:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Jezebel! Do you know where Donny is???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course I know where Donny Is!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Calico
Apr. 22, 2004, 01:17 PM
I have his book right here, it's entitled "Donny!"

Celtic Witch
Apr. 22, 2004, 01:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Go tell it to your Congressman, because as things are people with disabilities have rights.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Amazingly enough, so do those without disabilities. I believe it is my right to warm up my horse safely without having to dodge the yahoos on lunge lines. I also believe that the majority makes the rule; 300 hundred people shouldn't have to go out of their way to accomodate 1 or 2 individuals.

If you have a disability which prevents you from practising law the way that everyone else has to, don't go to work for a large firm. Open your own small office and make you own hours.

The disabled have a right to the opportunities the non-disabled have. They do not have a right to the system being turned on its head simply to accomodate them.

This is probably why I love my closest friend soooo much. She has no right eye. She has no depth perception. She has little more than a flipperish thing for a right arm and hand. She has no right lung. She has no right kidney. She can never have a child.

Yet she events in open competition looking to a 1* 3DE this year, does all the care for her horses and farm herself and doesn't ask for a single special dispensation anywhere.

She also rides the pants off most able bodied adult amateurs and has never lunged one of her hot as hell thoroughbreds down.

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 01:50 PM
I remember you Tiramit!!!! You and I used to sneak Jack Daniels and flirt with the junior partners at the firm's picnic, while our fathers( the founding fathers of the firm) held everyone else at the gathering transfixed by their stories of what an A- hole the judge and opposing counsel was at their last, big trial, while our mothers gulped their Martini's and made small talk with the junior partner wives!!! I can't believe you have forgotten me!!!

Tiramit
Apr. 22, 2004, 02:13 PM
I remember Jack, but little else after. No matter.... Darling xegeba, how have you been?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You look fantastic, but then again, that's what all the junior partners had to say about you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Those were the care-free days when none worried if we were a little too hot and in need of a good longing, weren't they? All we needed was a long trial story, and, in your case not one but two of the snappiest young men (you minx, I remember now! How did you explain THAT lawn game?) and peace remained.

It was a shame that it all had to end with that last picnic when we decided to host the firm's first equestrian-based May pole dance. How was I to know that woman was a client? Even her husband admitted that hat was to die for! Poor Muggles never jumped quite right after that...

We simply must resurrect the picnic for old time's sake. I'll bring the Jack! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 02:24 PM
Tiramit...does this mean I have to bring the lawyers? Please say no. I was thinking more along the lines of say, The N.Y. Jet's skilled postion players.

CBoylen
Apr. 22, 2004, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
Seriously, why the passionate argument over a purely hypotheical situation? Why are we still arguing about this when lunging is allowed at Devon and all other major horse shows, just not necessarily during show hours?

Maybe we should start discussing more appropriate topics. Like: if they find life on Mars, and that life happens to be a whole herd of Rox Dene clones, can we import them and show them here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would solve the entire issue; Rox Dene doesn't know how to lunge http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Tiramit
Apr. 22, 2004, 02:38 PM
My, my, my, Xegeba, we have been out of touch, haven't we? Yes, lawyers are out, select Jets are in. That will make for a much more interesting picnic anyway. Far less chitter chatter, or at least chitter chatter we have to listen to! Lawyers can be soo wordy at times.

What do you think of adding a few traditional events with legal awards, say the run for legal pads or the closing argument sack race? Winners receive very nice mahogany and brass desk clocks. And could you please round up some Dictaphones for the tables, mine have all broken? We'll just keep them in the table floral arrangements. Remember our motto, knowledge is power. That is how you persuaded your father to buy you that 4th jumper, isn't it?

But for pete's sake ask your mother to leave the homemade bug spray at home this time! Last time she not only set that poor paralegal's head on fire when he was standing near the grill, but I tripped over an empty jack bottle trying to reach the hose and the resulting injury caused me to miss Devon that year! That wasn't all bad because after that picnic I was in no shape to longe at 3:00 am!

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 02:47 PM
I think my mother did that on purpose... I'm on the picnic thing. Everyone has to bring their own lunge line and whip...

Tiramit
Apr. 22, 2004, 02:49 PM
Should we call the longe line and whip event, "interrogating the witness"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 02:52 PM
Without prejudice...

dropitlikeitshot
Apr. 22, 2004, 03:01 PM
Well now, on the topic of longeing and whether a horse needs it or not, I do have one horse that does need a longe to loosen up. He's a 12 y/o tb that is cold backed and cranky. That 5 minute longe does more help for him than any hand walk could do. The best for him is a half hour out in the paddock under the warm sun where he can roll and then get all hot in his skin. He comes in looking like a new horse.

Also, seeing as how horses aren't exactly meant to be standing up in a stall all the time, can you blame them for getting a little antsy at a show where they're cooped up in a stall for a week with no turnout? Turnout is essential for a horse's health, as everyone well knows. So regardless of whether or not your horse is hot, it's not fair to say that just because your horse needs a longe you should find a new one, or yours isn't suited for you or showing. If no one brought horses that needed to be longed to a show (as someone mentioned before) we'd be missing a good 75% of the hunters. Including the majority of the top hunters in the country.

And yes, excessive longeing can make your horse almost too[I] fit, which can create problems at the shows. But how many people longe (as they would at the show) before they ride at home? Not many I'd wager. There is the option of riding them down, that's true, but there are some owner's that don't ride or don't have the ability to ride the horse's they own, and the trainers are generally too busy between all their clients. While some trainers do let their grooms ride, there's a fair amount that don't, so that eliminates having your grooms ride them down a bit.

What should we do then, instead of longe?

[I]"Plus, it's really confusing when you really ARE looking for the fruitbat and everyone's going around saying WTF so you think they're helping, but then no they're not really, they're just PO'd." ~bip, and her thoughts on Where's The Fruitbat?

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 03:26 PM
Pokerface...to answer your last question.... Punt, but not before playing around with those skilled postion players...

Silk
Apr. 22, 2004, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think Everythingbutwings simply didn't read my posts <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I read every one on this topic. I also read the Devon prize list and commented that I was glad to see the rule and hoped that it would be enforced.

Totally confused as to how CP managed to turn a simple and obviously neccessary rule into a fusspot about discrimination and predjudice against disabled riders.

_Friendship is Love without his wings_
-Lord Byron<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

same way she turned the last conversation she started into some hooplah about how unfairly we treat disabled riders (see thread titled "Do you know who this is?")

That thread went in the same direction this one is going in.

Funny thing: I am more disabled now then when I wrote that response. I am currently in end stage renal failure and cannot get through a flat class. I have yet to ask the management is he can shorten the flats so I can complete them http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

bigbay
Apr. 22, 2004, 05:13 PM
A serious question: If you can't lunge, do you suppose they'd let you pony?

During show hours I mean.

"It is good to be fine."

Zaboobafoo
Apr. 22, 2004, 05:21 PM
I can't imagine that would work, big bay. With the tight spaces at Devon in the rings, there is barely enough room to fit ONE horse through. much less two! They may let you try it, but I have a feeling it would go ALL bad!

I got a webshots album! Yay! Go see : http://community.webshots.com/user/piggiejump

vxf111
Apr. 22, 2004, 05:32 PM
Bigbay, Devon is TINY. And everytime I've gone to spectate-- it's also CRAZY BUSY. I doubt you could find space to pony a horse terribly effectively. I suppose you could try, but it's really cramped quarters back there. I was saddlebred people doing all kinds of stuff in shedrows because there wasn't room anywhere else.

~Veronica

"The Son Dee Times"
"Sustained"

CBoylen
Apr. 22, 2004, 05:56 PM
I'm not sure you could find a horse at Devon that would pony. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Spot
Apr. 22, 2004, 06:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No correlation, it's the same thing as peeps, salad shooters and Unresolved Pleasant Conversations <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Ooooh! Does it involve Betty, her husband and the Garden Gnomes?

I've been wondering how that relationship was working out. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG - I had COMPLETELY forgotten about Betty, Hank and those damned garden gnomes!

I wonder if he has been getting weirder and wierder with his fetishes and still involving Betty???

Maybe Betty might be a good one to ask if lunging should be allowed at Devon?

"Spot"

PS - do garden gnomes cause horses to spook? Should we perhaps start a petition to ban garden gnoems because of their effect on horses?
I'm sure that Betty would fully support an action of that sort and then perhaps she and Hank could return back to a normal relationship ... WITHOUT the gnomes!

Everythingbutwings
Apr. 22, 2004, 07:01 PM
C.Boylen - Maddie will appreciate knowing that her supreme heroine (darn it, that looks so much like a BAD word!) has some issues, too!

I truly wish to know what has happened regarding Betty and the unresolved pleasant conversations. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Inserted in here simply because it has been far too long since I have mentioned appreciation: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If I could attempt to interject some common sense here... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank you, Erin, for not just stomping on the topic! I think that I started the entire broo ha ha by my statement that I hoped the No lungeing during the show would be enforced.

Going to Devon for Hunter in Hand day is a really big effort for hundreds of hard working, hopefull people. Trying to get their babies settled in a very strange situation along with dealing with shipping in is a major effort for people whose season centers around this show. To have to deck your precious yearlings out in their unfamiliar finest and then lead them through the normal hectic atmosphere is something that can be expected and prepared for.

Having to contend with selfish and ignorant people who still lunge in the way is unacceptable and terrible sportsmanship. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Apr. 22, 2004 at 10:15 PM.]

El Grande Stimpendo
Apr. 22, 2004, 07:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BLBGP:
Seriously, why the passionate argument over a purely hypotheical situation? Why are we still arguing about this when lunging is allowed at Devon and all other major horse shows, just not necessarily during show hours?

Maybe we should start discussing more appropriate topics. Like: if they find life on Mars, and that life happens to be a whole herd of Rox Dene clones, can we import them and show them here?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That would solve the entire issue; Rox Dene doesn't know how to lunge http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OT - but I'm sorry you're having trouble with lunging your horse. Maybe he is green, or you need a better trainer. Anyway, I would be happy to teach you how to lung your horse. I am a exceallnt roundpinner and you will be sure to be surprised by the resuklts. Soory if this is advertsing! PT me for more ifno.

Ben and Me
Apr. 22, 2004, 08:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> OT - but I'm sorry you're having trouble with lunging your horse. Maybe he is green, or you need a better trainer. Anyway, I would be happy to teach you how to lung your horse. I am a exceallnt roundpinner and you will be sure to be surprised by the resuklts. Soory if this is advertsing! PT me for more ifno. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Is this a joke? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

http://www.webspawner.com/users/watrlilly7/index.html

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 08:56 PM
Yes, Ben... It is Troppies feeble attempt at making someone feel like a dumbass...

Paddycake
Apr. 22, 2004, 09:28 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Celtic Witch
Apr. 22, 2004, 09:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trop tard:
OT - but I'm sorry you're having trouble with lunging your horse. Maybe he is green, or you need a better trainer. Anyway, I would be happy to teach you how to lung your horse. I am a exceallnt roundpinner and you will be sure to be surprised by the resuklts. Soory if this is advertsing! PT me for more ifno.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm laughing my ass off...

california rider
Apr. 22, 2004, 09:57 PM
CellosPride

Interesting you claim Devon makes the no lunging rule without using their brains. Try yours on and get a clue you may lunge just not when everything is at a hectic pace. The Cow Palace while not as limited has the same night owl hours.. sniff sniff do you smell coffee?

PAAALEASE

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 10:00 PM
California... Have you seen Donny and his wife and two kids anywhere in the near vicinity of the Cow Palace???? No??? Keep Looking....

Beezer
Apr. 22, 2004, 10:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Yes, Ben... It is Troppies feeble attempt at making someone feel like a dumbass...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Troppies own self, maybe?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

xegeba
Apr. 22, 2004, 10:06 PM
Those who smoke waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much pot... usually sound like they smoke waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay too much pot...

Coreene
Apr. 22, 2004, 10:33 PM
Spot,

Betty was having a Pleasant Conversation with Donny. They got along so well, she ran off with him. The resulting shock sent the garden gnome running for the Valium, which he now says he is required to take due to his sense of humor failure (that's his Own Private Disability).

But the gnome is now making a killing in Devon, selling coffee to people who get up in the wee hours to lunge when it's the alloted time to do so. While people wait their turn, they have doppio espressos and Pleasant Conversations. When the lunging time is up, he drives home in his Kia Pet.

____________________________
Don't nott to buy no ugly ass things for us to wear und then say it be a present for us, it don't nott to be, it be for you. - WILLEM

poltroon
Apr. 22, 2004, 11:08 PM
CP, the way I read the disability provisions in Dressage, they are meant to provide accomodations that would be necessary for that rider with ANY horse - equipment modifications, salute changes, talking letters, etc. They are NOT meant to provide accomodations that are necessary for a PARTICULAR horse.

See the difference?

Spot
Apr. 23, 2004, 04:35 AM
Coreene - thank you SO much for the update on Betty!
We know what the garden gnome is doing - how about Hank? Any word on him?

And no one has answered my other question - do horses shy from garden gnomes and if so - should they be lunged first if you KNOW there will be garden gnomes in the vicinity?
AND - most importantly - if lungeing isnt permitted, can you sue the show organizers for a) having garden gnomes in the first place and b) knowing that they have garden gnomes which causes horses to shy, but they wont permit lungeing first?
c) are garden gnome proof horses that DONT shy in good demand? Could there be a viable market in the future for horses that you dont need to lunge first?

"Spot"

Lord Helpus
Apr. 23, 2004, 05:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
The gist of the bar admission fight is the Chief Justice in California and the Clerk of Court believe that people without arms, quadraplegics, and people with autism or learning disabilities should be blanket excluded from bar membership in that state because of the type of accommodation they require -- dictation, large print, and extra time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Without commenting on other portions of this thread, I need to set the record straight on this comment since I know, from my own personal experience, that it is absolutely untrue.

I took the California Bar Exam when I had 2 bulging discs in my neck. The pain was excrutiating. With affidavits from my Neurologist and Neurosurgeon, I filed a request for special accomodations, which was granted. I was given "70 minute hours". After 60 minutes, I was allowed to lie down and ice my neck for 10 minutes -- I was not allowed to read the next question before this time out (I could not use the 10 minutes to plan my answer), so, in one sense I was at a disadvantage, since I could not allocate time at my discretion as others could.

Because of my special needs, I took the Bar Exam in a separate room. The only other person in the room, other than the Monitor, was a Vietnam Vet, who had had his hands (and one ear) blown off by a bomb in Vietnam. That man actually took the bar exam by holding a pointer in a specially designed strap attached to his wrist, typing answers by hitting the typewriter keys one key at a time.

While everyone else had 8 hours a day (for 3 days) to finish the exam, and I had 8 hours and 20 minutes each day, that man had 12 hours a day for 3 consecutive days in which to take the bar exam.

He was such an inspiration to me, that my "disability" (I have since had double level cervial fusion) seemed insignificant; I am sure it spurred me on to do my best. And I am very proud to say that I passed the July Bar when only 28% of the people taking that bar passed. I do not know if that man passed (I suspect he didn't -- he had an incredible handicap to overcome --) but the mere fact that he was there taking it, and that the Committee of Bar Examiners did their very best to accommodate him, speaks volumes for both parties.

PS: As people who have read my posts over the year can attest, my dyslexia has not improved (nor has my typing), so I guess I am still disabled. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

squeezix
Apr. 23, 2004, 06:43 AM
CP, at the risk of being banned from this board, I feel compelled to add one thing. First, it was wrong of me to insinuate you have "borderline personality disorder" based on your posts. I am a psychotherapist by trade, and I try to restrain myself from making harsh and unprofessional comments. Let me explain the origin of my rudeness and impulsive comment. I take great offense to your lengthy posts "boasting" about your accomplishments as a person with Down Syndrome...including being a top equestrian at major AA shows, an attorney and an MBA. If you are going to lift the hopes of those with Downs or those who have people in their lives with Downs by flaunting your accomplishments despite having a significant handicap of mental retardation as Downs, BE SURE YOU ACTUALLY HAVE IT!!!!! I can't believe you later state "Well, I still could have mosaiicism..." (PS, its Mosaicism). But, you don't have the insurance to pay for the genetic test to confirm that you do have mental retardation in a chromosomal form? Hello!!! You own a horse, you show on the A circuit...you must have some $. Figure out what is you "disability" before you go before the public advertising yourself as someone with downs just because you have a "slight downs-like look." Its called fraud, in my "no-law-school-education" opinion. But, I do have a background in working with fine folks with downs. Many of whom are successful and high functioning...as in they made it through high school and perhaps community college with support and strong ambition. Good luck to you...whatever your diagnosis is. Why don't you start by figuring that one out.

Portia
Apr. 23, 2004, 07:35 AM
Don't worry, squeezix, that won't come close to getting you banned. It was a thoughtful and polite, if critical, post about a subject this poster herself insists on returning to over and over again.

Coreene, thanks for the update on Betty and the Garden Gnome, and the Pleasant Conversations. I visit SHB so rarely these days, it's nice to know what is going on with our old friends. But Wingsy asks a good question, how is poor Hank? Is he still pining (pineing?) for Betty, or for the Garden Gnome?

Coreene
Apr. 23, 2004, 09:44 AM
Hank was pining for the Garden Gnome, but no longer.

They had spent so much time working together on gnome-proofing the horses at Betty's barn, he grew very fond of the gnome. However, news of his gnome-proofing success spread like wildfire, all they way to the streets of Belgium, where Hank is now sharing his gnome-proofing talents with several nationalities, in addition to becoming a cunning linguist, and has transferred his affections.

____________________________
Don't nott to buy no ugly ass things for us to wear und then say it be a present for us, it don't nott to be, it be for you. - WILLEM

Mosby
Apr. 23, 2004, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coreene: in addition to becoming a cunning linguist, and has transferred his affections.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, Coreene, Don't keep us in suspense - to what has dear Hank, the cunning linguist, transferred his affections to?

Spot
Apr. 23, 2004, 09:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>in addition to becoming a cunning linguist, and has transferred his affections.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Coreene - you are one sick puppy ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif ... I LIKE that in a person! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Spot"

Coreene
Apr. 23, 2004, 11:43 AM
Hank is a multicultural barn in Belgium.

He was found in Waterloo, teaching the Belgian gnomes to sing the ABBA song of the same name (part of gnome-desensitizing), when he was discovered by a group of riders from said multicultural barn, who adopted him and brought him back to the palace.

____________________________
Don't nott to buy no ugly ass things for us to wear und then say it be a present for us, it don't nott to be, it be for you. - WILLEM

CellosPride
Apr. 23, 2004, 02:21 PM
Oh, Poltroon, blanket generalized inquiries are not allowed. An individualized assessment is what is specifically required. Do you see the difference?

Jezebel
Apr. 23, 2004, 02:41 PM
Talk to the officials at Devon, maybe they'll make a "special" exception for you!

SillyMillie
Apr. 23, 2004, 10:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Pokerface...to answer your last question.... Punt, but not before playing around with those skilled postion players...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Meow.......

&&&Natural Blonde, Please Speak Slowly&&&

xegeba
Apr. 23, 2004, 10:26 PM
Silly, are you meowing at me or those skilled players....Please, Please go post SOMETHING on my thread over on O.C.

bdzaugis
Apr. 24, 2004, 04:25 AM
the same rule applies durring the breed and dressage show. it is a rule set by the shwo grounds.

Key to note here is "while the show is in session." At the others show every one ghet up very early and lounges befor the show starts!

Beth

Giddy-up
Apr. 24, 2004, 11:15 AM
Ok, I have read it ALL & I agree that there should be no lunging during show hours at Devon, I am not going to even touch the disability thing, but darn it...where is Donny nowadays?? Who is he with??? I think us COTHer's should intervene & reunite whoever it was back with him since he was her first true love so the gnomes can sing ABBA at their wedding reception & we can all drive home in Kia Pets. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

"...but now the gloves are coming off and it's going to get ghetto." Robby Johnson

CellosPride
Apr. 24, 2004, 12:40 PM
Xegeba, yes I am mostly Irish, like Terrance Hallinan, the subject of a BIG fight with the California Committee of Bar Examiners over his propensity to get in fist fights, but he had red hair, so the Supreme Court of California let him in, and later he became the District Attorney of San Francisco, just a few doors down the street from the enemy.

LordHelpus, I have greatly admired so many posts you have written on this board, but I think you did not read what I said. I did NOT say the Committee of Bar Examiners refused to provide disability accommodations for the actual Bar Examination itself, which to the dismay of many I am sure, I should report I PASSED. What I SAID was after people PASS the Bar Examination, which is the tool that measures whether they are capable of practicing law in the Courts, the Chief Justice and his Clerk decided that those same accommodations provided to make that measurement on the test were not entitled to follow-through or recognition in the Courts. To analogize, it's kind of like letting a guy use a ramp to get to the test room in his wheelchair, and he PASSES the test and gets a license, and then goes to the Courthouse and there are no ramps! Of course he can't get into the Courtroom, much less be present to argue on behalf of his client for which he was licensed. What's that about? and before you say it's "not true," wait awhile until I notice my deposition of the Chief Justice and we'll get it under Oath.

Jezebel, I am afraid the qquestion about a special dispensation, compensation, certificate, or accommodation for me this year is moot, because, contrary to the fiction given the weight of first-hand personally known "fact" by Squeezix "the psychotherapist by trade," I do not have "$$" but rather I am a real broke joke bar applicant living on a decrepid sailboat with my husband, a new attorney, who is having to take all the cases other established attorneys reject and win them so we can afford a little macaroni on the dinner table. But should I happen to win a case this year and be able to afford to show and hapen to qualify for next years Devon, well, then I will submit the subject back to this board for a vote.

Squeezix, before you begin making diagnosis of people you have never met, never seen, never observed for any length of time, or whose actual medical records from real M.D's, testing neuropsychologists, and psychatrists (not psychotherapists) you have never reviewed, maybe you should do those things first. Take it from me, I aced my trial practice class, and I was the class demonstrator of how to cross-examine and impeach medical experts (involving real doctors). Another thing, if you really ARE a licensed psychotherapist, then I would imagine you are familiar with the DSM-IV and diagnostic criteria for certain of the developmental disabilities, of which "lengthiness" and disorganization of writing and speaking defines some of those disabilities. I would think the characteristics you admit to of "harshness," "rudeness," "impulsiveness," could indicate either a propensity to misdiagnose frequently (an error rate which errors and omissions insurers usually utilize actuarily and perhaps occurring by attempting to diagnose over the internet), perhaps a discriminatory animus (Title III of the ADA covers "psychotherapists" as far as the personal attack on me posted here), and as for accusing me of a "fraud" and publishing that to this entire board, in my law school that was called DEFAMATION. And while you are checking the accuracy of your information for truthfulness, you may want to READ that I have repeatedly SAID many times that I am NOT a lawyer, only that I PASSED a Bar Examination and I am pursuing my bar admission. My husband is a lawyer, so is my friend Gabe, and my friend Dave, and my friend Jack, and it would be lenghty unfortunately if I were to provide the whole list. Really, I would rather you be my friend, but maybe first you need to do a DIFFERENTIAL ANALYSIS to see if I qualify. Erin, your post of 4/22/04 I will take that content and exclusion up with COTH through my husband rather than on this board, and I may well request a retraction as that one was particularly malicious and directed at censoring the content of ideas you don't agree with, a First Amendment issue as well the the ADA.

CocaCola, "nonvisible disabilities" are a term of art with a specific meaning, which maybe you should bone up on a little so you can see there is no contradiction in the term. A person shaking with MS has a "nonvisible disability," yet the shaking is perceived as if something is wrong with the person to the point he is "not normal." Believe me, I just finished law clerking on 5 divorce appeals for my attorney husband, whose client was another attorney with a Harvard L.L.M. -- and MS and they ASSUMED he could pay a fortune in alimony because they could not see his brain lesions and spinal cord deterioration by looking at him. A "nonvisible disability."

CelticWitch, I KNOW the majority of 300 or so people HATE having to accommodate the 1 or 3 whom are disabled, but the civil rights laws were meant to protect the minority against the tyranny of the majority. A lesson in human nature and the rule of law, I guess. And we all have to go on living, but NOT NECESSARILY working for a BIG LAW FIRM.

Poltroon, I think we are on the same side and I appreaciate the comments as they are encouraging rather than discouraging for people with disabilities, and I think those dressage rules for dispensation are a good thing. At least there are now rules. I am sure they are applied under an individualized assessment, but either way, I am glad I don't show in dressage shows, because I sure can't sit the sitting trot anymore. Pokerface and tyedyecommando, thank you for the nice posts. Well said. I just don't see either why some people want my horse NOT to get his turnout or his 15-20 minute morning lunge, squeel a little, and behave because he got his morning Wheaties.

Xegeba, now do you know anything more about those gnomes everyone is talking about, so I can drop in at Donny and Betty's in the wee hours of some Devon morning after lunging hours for a coffee? And I will take it to heart about what you said about never getting a word in edgewise at the dinner table.

CellosPride
Apr. 24, 2004, 12:44 PM
DUPLICATE DELETED

[This message was edited by CellosPride on Apr. 24, 2004 at 03:59 PM.]

nhwr
Apr. 24, 2004, 01:06 PM
As the mother of a high functioning child on the autistic spectrum, parts of this thread really sadden me. It is really tough to see how us "neuro-typicals" interact with high functioning people on the sprectrum, sometimes. I see this with my son alot. It is heart breaking to watch. High functioning autism is primarily a communication and social disability, hello! Think about that a bit before you go after CellosPride, guys.

Autistics don't see the world the way most of us do. But they frequently have insights into things that the rest of us never could come up with. They have a lot to contribute, if we can only listen.

Keep posting, CellosPride.

squeezix
Apr. 24, 2004, 01:24 PM
Oh CellosPride. I rest my case. BTW, how many hours did you spend concocting that response?

xegeba
Apr. 24, 2004, 02:01 PM
Cellos!!!! Perhaps we should meet for lunch(Is Jack's still open) over Sand dabs(Jack's had the best!!)and a good stiff one (or 3!) and discuss what there is and is not to like about Irish Laywers!!! Since you have assured me that this will not be a one-sided conversation, will you also promise not to eat all the food off my plate???? Thanks... The gnomes are before my time...can't help you there.

xegeba
Apr. 24, 2004, 02:03 PM
Squeezix.... It would appear that Cellos could quite possibly become a BB legend... go easy...Please???

FourGreen
Apr. 24, 2004, 02:45 PM
Yeah my horses have been lunged the last 4 or so years at devon, just at like 3 am!

Erin
Apr. 24, 2004, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Erin, your post of 4/22/04 I will take that content and exclusion up with COTH through my husband rather than on this board, and I may well request a retraction as that one was particularly malicious and directed at censoring the content of ideas you don't agree with, a First Amendment issue as well the the ADA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CellosPride, you aren't being censored. I don't think I've EVER edited or deleted a post of yours, and certainly not on this thread. You're free to say whatever you like.

I don't happen to agree with your reasoning on the whole lunging issue, but the First Amendment only guarantees your right to speak freely... it doesn't guarantee that people will agree with you.

There was absolutely no malice in my post. I'm simply stating my observation -- that the WAY you post is what gets others' feathers ruffled. And that your way of dealing with that -- attacking them -- is NOT making things any better, and probably makes them worse. That's just the way it looks from my seat... again, just my opinion.

I was hoping being blunt about it might get through to you, so you could take a step back and really look objectively at how you post and how you respond to others, and maybe consider re-evaluating that. Obviously, you're determined to keep doing things your way... so be it.

creseida
Apr. 24, 2004, 03:39 PM
Well, I have a student of mine who is a high functioning autistic woman. She also has some (relatively) minor physical handicaps to deal with, but nothing that prevents her from w/t/c/j and she prefers to ride without stirrups.

She knows she has physical limitations and when she first contacted me, wanted to make sure I had a horse to teach her on who would be suitable for her. She wants to be able to ride to the best of her abilities, but realises that not every horse is suitable for her situation. Perhaps CP should consider the same?

I guess what my way of thinking is, CP's horse, while talented, might not be the best choice for her for showing, considering her self-proclaimed limitations/handicaps/what-have-you. Perhaps a more suitable mount for venues where lunging areas aren't readily accessible? That, to me, would be the sensible choice.

Oh, and if one can afford to show at Devon (considering the transportation costs from Florida or California or wherever one is residing) one can bloody well afford a test to find out what is wrong with onesself. Providing one has their priorities straight.

~&lt;&gt;~ COTHBB Leather Care Guru~&lt;&gt;~
~Member of the *Horse Vans* clique~

"Learn the rules so you may break them effectively"~Dalai Lama

Ghazzu
Apr. 24, 2004, 04:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Erin, your post of 4/22/04 I will take that content and exclusion up with COTH through my husband rather than on this board, and I may well request a retraction as that one was particularly malicious and directed at censoring the content of ideas you don't agree with, a First Amendment issue as well the the ADA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You'll excuse me if I find it ironic that someone is attempting to extort a retraction by invoking the First Amendment.

Get a grip. People disagree. If you can't hack that, don't read what they post. But it's rather disingenuous to attribute all disagreement to some nebulous "anti-ADA" sentiment.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

marianne
Apr. 24, 2004, 07:22 PM
As my mama would say:

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, baffle them with bull@#!t....

CellosPride
Apr. 24, 2004, 07:29 PM
Quack, Quack, that's a good one, invocation of First Amendment constitutional protections amounts to 'extortion,' ... wow, maybe you should sell that one to the government for enemy combatants and all the rest of us Americans who are slowly losing our constitutional rights.

Creseida, what's wrong with my horse? I get along with him just fine. We are two peas in a pod. He is very suitable for me. I rescued him from slaughter, malnourished, 700 lbs. at then 16.1 as a 2 1/2 year old, have been his partner for 5 years, and gave him back his life. (Pics on first thread, now 17 hands). And, if you READ what I SAID, I SAID I can't afford Devon this year, because I am a broke joke bar applicant living on a decrepid sailboat that leaks when it rains. I guess there are just people around here that would not like me even if I were Santa Claus and brought them toys. You just can't please every gnome.

Old A/O I will answer your questions tomorrow as they require some thought, I think your questions deserve a serious answer, and I am way too tired now after three days of drafting an emergency writ of mandinkas for my husband for one of his disabled paraplegic clients and no sleep followed by the drive from West Palm Beach back to Clearwater.

Erin, apologies are accepted if they were intended.

Albion
Apr. 24, 2004, 08:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I guess there are just people around here that would not like me even if I were Santa Claus and brought them toys. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

What's to like? You're nasty, rude, condescending, and you bring up ADA stuff at every turn, no matter what the subject.

Guess what? No matter how much society tries to equalize things, the playing field is NEVER level. Everyone is handicapped by something - whether it be a physical or mental handicap, or something having to do with class, monetary, gender, race, or education issues and so forth. EVERYONE is lacking in some area or another. NOTHING can entirely level the playing field for everyone. The only thing I am familiar with in the ADA are the rules concerning renovations to old houses open to the public. There is a sliding scale of 3 options - satisfy new construction standards, satsify alternative standards, or provide an alternative experience. This means that - even with use of your precious ADA - there are plenty of circumstances where 'complete equality of experience' will never be realized by people with certain disabilities, because sometimes it's determined that maintaining the historic & architectural integrity of a building is more important than making sure disabled people have completely equal opportunities (even if that's not what the laws intended, this is the consequence - as it should be, IMHO. No reason to mutilate historic buildings to suit the needs of the few, as long as effort is made to provide some sort of alternative entrance/experience/etc. Are you going to try to sue me now for discrimination?). Even the ADA can't legislate total compliance or equality with everything. The ADA certainly can't make us LIKE you just because you're disabled. Why don't you go sue the pants off some historic foundations or something, instead of wasting this boards time with nasty comments & attempting to turn every thread you post towards the subject of ADA & discrimination (in some form) against disabled persons?

To scream discrimination at every turn when people find you to be a RUDE person & don't agree with what you have to say, regardless of what handicaps you may have, is simply ridiculous & an insult to the multitudes of disabled people who deal with their issues with some modicum of grace.

These posts remind me of the people that get huffy about issue X because of some percieved class/race/gender issue - 'Well, you must think my idea is stupid because I'm a WOMAN.' Maybe I just think your idea is stupid because I think it's stupid. The glut of frivolous EEO complaints is absolutely astonishing. You're not advancing your cause, CellosPride, you're just pissing people off and tuning them out - if you wanted to draw attention towards 'issues faced by disabled equestrians' or something, you could've done it in a kind & gracious manner, instead of ranting and raving at people that don't agree with you & threatening to sue the COTH & individuals for breech of X, Y, and Z.

Give me a break.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

OLD A/O
Apr. 24, 2004, 08:17 PM
Cellos Pride- I deleted the post no need to comment. I guess I just gave up.

FuzzyLogic
Apr. 24, 2004, 08:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:

And, if you READ what I SAID, I SAID I can't afford Devon this year, because I am a broke joke bar applicant living on a decrepid sailboat that leaks when it rains. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you on the qualifying list for Devon this year?

Erin
Apr. 24, 2004, 08:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:

Erin, apologies are accepted if they were intended.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I definitely didn't intend to apologize. I haven't said anything for which an apology would be necessary.

I was honest and direct with you, and I disagreed with you. Why would I apologize for that?

Fred
Apr. 24, 2004, 08:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
Erin, your post of 4/22/04 I will take that content and exclusion up with COTH through my husband rather than on this board, and I may well request a retraction as that one was particularly malicious and directed at censoring the content of ideas you don't agree with, a First Amendment issue as well the the ADA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You'll excuse me if I find it ironic that someone is attempting to extort a retraction by invoking the First Amendment.

Get a grip. People disagree. If you can't hack that, don't read what they post. But it's rather disingenuous to attribute all disagreement to some nebulous "anti-ADA" sentiment.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree- threatening to SUE??!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Erin was coming to your defense, at least that is how I read it - I guess people just see what they want to see.
Back to the subject - it seems to make perfect sense to have no longeing during show times..
regarding disabilities and riding and equal opportunites - I am dyslexic, and CAN NOT learn a jumper course. period. CAN'T DO it. Now to make it an equal playing field, it would really help if I could have had a head set with my coach telling me which jump was next -
even hunter courses are too hard for me.... and since my head injuries, it has just got worse...
But I did get accepted at law school! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Hi There
Apr. 24, 2004, 10:01 PM
You know, cellospride, after reading the whole of this thread, I still don't get what your disability is. First you tell us that you have autism, then it's Down's syndrome, then it's a simple learning disability??? What specific diagnosis have you been given by a qualified MD? I honestly want to know because people keep bringing different things up based on what they know but I honestly don't know what to make of all of this and being in the medical field, I don't want to make any assumptions without the relevant info.

Celtic Witch
Apr. 24, 2004, 10:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CellosPride:
CelticWitch, I KNOW the majority of 300 or so people HATE having to accommodate the 1 or 3 whom are disabled, but the civil rights laws were meant to protect the minority against the tyranny of the majority. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. The civil rights give everyone equal OPPORTUNITY, in other words, the chance to achieve. They do not guarantee success nor do they promise to have it handed to you. The fact that the handicapped are allowed to compete in open shows is equal opportunity; no where is it guaranteed that you will be given rights not already given to everyone.

Concessions to pass the bar are one thing, but why on earth should you be given concessions to practise law that are not given to every lawyer? Would that not open the door for stacking the deck in the favour of the disabled? That is a right not granted by either civil rights nor your precious ADA.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I just don't see either why some people want my horse NOT to get his turnout or his 15-20 minute morning lunge, squeel a little, and behave because he got his morning Wheaties. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Frankly, no one here gives a rat's ass about whether or not your horse gets the turnout or lunging you deem so necessary. But if you are competent enough to qualify for Devon, and that's a pretty big but, then you are capable of getting up at 2am with everyone else who wants to lunge their horse. That point has been made over and over again; do they not teach reading for comprehension at law school?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Erin, your post of 4/22/04 I will take that content and exclusion up with COTH through my husband rather than on this board, and I may well request a retraction as that one was particularly malicious and directed at censoring the content of ideas you don't agree with, a First Amendment issue as well the the ADA. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Quack, Quack, that's a good one, invocation of First Amendment constitutional protections amounts to 'extortion,' <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The First Amendment gives you the right to free speech and its being allowed is painfully obvious on this thread. No where does it say that everyone must agree with what you are saying which is, amazingly enough, also an example of the First Amendment in practise.

Albion
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:15 AM
Brilliant, Celtic Witch - your first paragraph is exactly what I wanted to say!

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

trailblazer
Apr. 25, 2004, 01:26 AM
OMG! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

I just read this entire thread AND I AM LAUGHING SO HARD RIGHT NOW! This has got to be the funniest thread ever. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Thanks guys for making my day!

Spot
Apr. 25, 2004, 06:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I just read this entire thread AND I AM LAUGHING SO HARD RIGHT NOW! This has got to be the funniest thread ever <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...but ... are you laughing about Betty, Hank and the gnomes too???

THAT would be unfair, especially to Betty, as she has been through a lot, poor woman, and she doesn't even have a disability - none that I know of anyhow, when I discussed my gas issues with her

How would you like it if the man of your dreams asked you to do unmentionable acts with garden gnomes???

"Spot"

El Grande Stimpendo
Apr. 25, 2004, 06:50 AM
Whats the first ammendment anyway? I've never heard of it. Is it something to do with the ADA?

good booie
Apr. 25, 2004, 07:37 AM
I have not read all the posts so far, just scanned over them. I do have a question.

Do I understand correctly the both attorney Cello and her attorney husband live on a leaky sailboat and are broke??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Love my Quarter Horse!!!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

http://community.webshots.com/user/huntjumpga

ishmael
Apr. 25, 2004, 08:27 AM
"I am way too tired now after three days of drafting an emergency writ of mandinkas for my husband for one of his disabled paraplegic clients and no sleep followed by the drive from West Palm Beach back to Clearwater."

I know this is an odd question, but what is a writ of mandinkas? I was really interested because I am unfamiliar with the term, and like a good law student I ran searches for it. The term has apparently never been used in any federal or state case or mentioned in any law review article (search courtesy of Lexis). I'm honestly curious.

Cellos, I do think that lawyers with disabilities should be allowed to have the sorts of accomodations that allow them to practice law. I may not think that perhaps a big-firm lifestyle is appropriate, but being able to practice law is something that I think should be accessible to a wide range of people. I take it that you requested dictation accomodations. I don't know much about those, but I do know that often lawyers ARE accomodated, and dictation is fairly easy to accomodate. Are you asking for something else as well, and do you have the type of documentation to qualify? I'm just wondering because I know several of my classmates have disabilities, and find accomodations are willingly granted for the most part. One of my SO's friends is largely blind and is an editor on the Harvard Law Review; we also have a vociferous student who is paralyzed and has no use of his arms who is successfully pursuing his career. It can be done, but I suppose my main question is how the system is failing you (which is clearly is). Do you have appropriate documentation of your disability? Are the accomodations you request reasonable in light of your limitations? Perhaps instead of dictation you should think about asking for extra time to complete filings, since you seem to have little difficulty typing. You could use the extra time to focus on editing, perhaps. I'm just trying to think of ways that you might better be able to pursue your career.

I for one don't think it is unreasonable for a disabled person to ask to be allowed to lunge after the completion of the show if lunging is banned, though I would expect a 3 am lunging time. You sound like a determined and dedicated person, and I wish you the best of luck with your quest.

clearound
Apr. 25, 2004, 10:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ishmael:

I know this is an odd question, but what is a writ of mandinkas? I was really interested because I am unfamiliar with the term, and like a good law student I ran searches for it. The term has apparently never been used in any federal or state case or mentioned in any law review article (search courtesy of Lexis). I'm honestly curious.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As one who has practiced law in federal and various state courts for over 20 years, I have yet to hear of the term "Writ of Mandinkas." Perhaps she meant "Writ of Mandamus" or perhaps Cellos Pride can clue us in.

Better yet, perhaps someone can lock this thread as the original issue raised in this topic has been answered.

moathouse
Apr. 25, 2004, 10:28 AM
Perhaps we should consider this definition as well to maybe better understand a possible reason for this thread having taken the turn it has......

OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANT DISORDER

American Description

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diagnostic Criteria
A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present:
often loses temper
often argues with adults
often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules
often deliberately annoys people
often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
is often angry and resentful
is often spiteful or vindictive
Note: Consider a criterion met only if the behavior occurs more frequently than is typically observed in individuals of comparable age and developmental level.

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
The behaviors do not occur exclusively during the course of a Psychotic or Mood Disorder.
Criteria are not met for Conduct Disorder, and, if the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.

Another one to consider could explain even more...

What are the signs and symptoms of the condition?
The signs and symptoms of Munchausen syndrome fabrication of an illness without any physical symptoms
willingness to undergo numerous procedures, often painful, despite being fully aware there is no physical problem
poorly formed identity and severe problems with self-esteem
making up information, such as a medical history of an illness or serious disorder
changing health care providers or hospitals frequently

To keep this on "the other topic", I've always believed in the adage...

Schooling is done at home and Showing (what you've learned and taught your horse) is done at the Show.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"All things bright and beautiful,all Creatures great and small..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Lord Helpus
Apr. 25, 2004, 11:41 AM
Scratching head, trying to figure out why someone who has passed the bar exam in California has not been admitted to the bar.... Perhaps the background morals check? Or filing too many Writs of Mandinkas?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Oh yeah, I'll bet you're fat and can't ride!" --- Erin, Chief Cathearder. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

CellosPride
Apr. 25, 2004, 11:41 AM
Ishmael, A "writ of mandinkas" can be found in no law book nor on LEXIS, it is the dyslexic reformulation of a "writ of mandamus" by my husband-attorney who stutters and has ADHD. We do live on a leaky decrepid sailboat, and I am willing to bet that can be found in many law books and on LEXIS going back to The Nereide and many centuries before.

The biggest mistake I ever made in the world was applying to Stanford law school where they do not value equestrian achievements instead of Harvard, but such is life. I know I could never do the big law firm structure as is (imagine asking to take a 15 minute lie-down in prone traction position to take the gravity off your neck periodically throughout the day while the senior partners sweat the hourly billing goals they are holding you to), but that does not mean one cannot be hopeful for change or practice law outside the big firm environment in a very satisfying and rewarding legal career. Ruth Bader Ginsberg and Thurgood Marshall taught us that is indeed possible.

It is very good to hear that a largely blind person can be editor of law review and that a paralyzed student without use of arms can be both voiceferous and successful in pursuing his career there, without condemnation and punishment for the content of his ideas or for people having to see him, because that is the start to ending that discrimination, hostility, and true war on the disabled which we have witnessed here on this board and, sadly, in our Courts extending through Tennessee v. Lane & Jones -- if it cannot start at the top of the legal community where can it start?

There are so many who still think we are living in the Medieval ages and it is still ok to 1)
misinterpret disabilities, 2) misinterpret what the disabled have to say, 3) outright intentionally discriminate against the disabled, 4) shut the doors to so many opportunities they expend so much energy to reach that others take for granted, 5) relegate the disabled to lesser medical care, jobs, education, housing, recreational opportunities, and everything everywhere except maybe the mental institutions, jails, and falling prey to the predators on our streets. If the attackers here are so put off by a disabled person fighting for his or her or their rights, those individuals should be compelled to walk a day, week, month, or lifetime in their shoes. Like Christopher Reeve.

It is not so easy to ask for extra time for filings, a simply request it would seem. It all really begins with the benign neglect and thoughtlessness at the Supreme Court, sad to say, trickles down through many of our federal appellate courts who happily are trying to understand but do not know what to do to make the necessary changes, and onward to the lower federal courts and pervasively into the State Courts in a manner as you see here on this board.

I passed the California Bar Examination "with" dictation to a 90 mpw typist trained in legal terminology on a large print font computer, double extra time, a private room, a high-backed 'executive' (cervically supportive) chair, food and pain medication readily available as scheduled. These types of accommodations, modifications, and removal of mobility and communication barriers are not unique to people like me, witness the series of Bartlett v. New York Board of Law Examiners cases (a real battle of the experts, but Bartlett prevailed). More and more there is a recognition that the standardized test-taking game is not providing the proper measurement to enable people with such disabilities to achieve success in the real world, witness Sid Wolensky and Disability Rights Advocates very recent victory in a Ninth Circuit Alaska case striking down Alaska's standardized high school graduation test, much like Florida's FCAT or the MPRE, MBE, Essay structured Bar Examination utilized by most States. There are other better ways to assess qualification of a disabled person's education, skills, and abilities, for example New York has considered allowing law school graduate bar admission without a Bar Examination if they work in the Courts for while after graduation.

After proving I can meet the "essential functions" of a practicing attorney by passage of the California Bar Examination (and graduating with a joint J.D./M.B.A. from an ABA-accredited law school in a 4-year joint program), I found the following barriers in the Courts:
1) United States Supreme Court -- no disability accommodation/modification request S.Ct.R. to request equally effective accommodations, example, if you are impaired in placing pleadings in written format, and being extremely destitute is caused by the nature of your disability and the state of present programs for the disabled, employer's willingness to accommodate disabled people so they can earn an income (this relates to the evisceration of Title I of the ADA), there is no way possible to request extra time to the deadlines to file pleadings, to file 1 copy instead of 10-33, to eliminate or some other option for providing Table of Citations or Authorities, Table of Contents (all MORE writing), as many of the Rules that have existed there for so long. Without some modification to these rules, I can tell you first hand, I was not even able to apply for the Fellows Program, to contribute to changing these rules by assignment to the Fellow position with the Judicial Council for example, because the application process was not internet accessible to the accommodations I need, no extra time accommodation could be requested, and so the system, probably without any Supreme Court Justice knowing about it or thinking about it, perpetuates itself. As of 1995, the EEOC published statistics showing no autistic had even been able to file an EEOC complaint, so if an autistic cannot file an EEOC complaint with so much more relaxed procedures, how can an autistic ever secure a docketed Supreme Court case and actually secure review? This is something no one thinks about, and so the voice and ideas of autistics never get heard -- we are the people the Soliciter General in his Hason v. Medical Board of California Brief called the people "you can't see and can't hear." We do not see the world the way others do, but we are human beings with all the rights so we are told of all citizens, yet we have no way for our ideas to be heard where it really matters, where needed change can occur.

2) REspecting Federal appellate courts, experience here is limited to 9th and 11th Circuits. Interlocutory order review rules and doctrines, in order to avoid "piecemeal review," require the entire case to be disposed of before a person can get appellate review, since these courts almost never see it as within the collateral order doctrine or constituting 'injunctive relief.' So, while the disabled have subsistence and survivability issues which are time sensitive for immediacy, especially in this budget cutting age over benefits and income they need just to survive and access to job opportunities and licensing on an expedited track, it can take many months, even years for a case to become "final" and wind its way fully before a federal appellate court for a full review. District court judges and other non-Article III courts are very reluctant to enter a Fed.R.Civ.P. 54 certification order to allow an earlier appeal of what would otherwise be interlocutory Orders. All this runs diametrically opposed to Olmstread v. L.C. ex rel. Zimring, and President Bush's Executive Order implementing Olmstead (Title II, ADA) -- immediate community-based support and equal opportunities for the disabled to bring them into the economic mainstream of American society. Federal appellate courts also have no rules for requesting disability accommodations or modifications, including the extra time, but equally importantly, an automatic consolidation of all related appeals and a reduction of written format paperwork such as one general Table of Citation or Authorities, one set of fee waiver motion, common to all related appeals. What can be done? Maybe it is time to revive the "death knell" doctrine, because of the immediacy and urgency of disability issues and what happens when a federal disability survivabiliy lawsuit falls apart from the beginning in the lower court because of a failure to appropriately accommodate the disabled person.

3) State courts, pervasively, are downright hostile to the disabled and overwhelmingly declare war on and retaliate against anyone audacious enough to mention the words "disabled" or "the ADA." Witness cases like Duvall v. Kitsap County, Popovich v. Cuyahoga County Court of Common Pleas, and when there is a law enforcement aspect to it, witness cases like McCray v. City of Dothan (Alabama) (the only thing the guy did was be prelingually deaf and his face got smashed, his ribs got cracked, and he was arrested). The problem is the State Courts still think it is ok to have someone 10-feet under anesthesia brought to them on a stretcher from the hospital surgical center, strip that person while unconscious and unaware and defenseless of his life savings, property, and even liberty, and pronounce that the Court made a ruling (no specific findings) and there "was due process." Then, the lower federal court judges are afraid to step in to correct the situation and hold their collegues (where they may have spent time as a State Court judge before federal appointment) to comply with the ADA.

Law schools have the right idea, but this does not trickle up into the Bar Examining Boards, and takes an exceedingly long time to work its way into the Court Systems, State and Federal, until some form of 'critical mass' of the disabled is achieved and and awareness and understanding, not to mention real fairness and due process will ever occur.

I have repeatedly experienced the phemomenon of battling 9 months-2 years or more with a single State agency or State Court for disability accommodations, and after scores of doctors, reports, and finally proving I was disabled and qualified under the ADA to that one agency, only to have to repeat this with each and every new State agency and each and every new State and Federal Court, because there is no system in place for this to be established once and for each succeeding to give recognition to that fact. And what a WASTE of federal taxpayer dollars to maintain this system of suspicion. I believe the Judge Bazelon Center for Mental Health in South (?) Carolina addressed this problem when the DOJ whacked South Carolina with a Title II ADA violation, and required South Carolina to implement the ADA, which is described somewhat in a law review style ADA guide published by Bazelon (US Gov. doc repository has it), called Opening Public Agency Doors or something like that. I have a copy I got from the Clearwater free public library. Judge Bazelon was a federal judge and a friend of the mentally disabled.

Unless this problem is changed, the disabled will forever spin their wheels and just dig further under with no hope for any opportunities to get ahead, and even if they begin to do so by some miracle or government program who helps them (federal vocational rehabilitation assistance, Catholic Charities, etc.), and a LOT of hard work, they will lose all ground gained the moment they walk into the next State agency or Court and become entangled in a 2 year litigation nightmare oddysey just to prove what they already proved, they are disabled and require proven accommodations and modifications. And the broken system goes on and on.

Another problem is what is so well illustrated by the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals case Vinson v. (something like) Department of Rehabilitiation, where 'do gooders' and attackers like we see on this board, so bent on disbelieving the disability, need for the accommodations, and denying the opportunities if the person 'can't do it like everyone else and stop complaining,' ask unreasonable medical documentation of a disability that is already more than adequately documented for which anyone who ever lived, worked, or has been around the disabled person KNOWS they have and the accommodations they need. There is a Delta Airline case under a federal airlines law using the exact same ADA style statutory language where it has been held eve the disabled person's explanation or a friends is sufficient to establish a disability. Where do we go with medical documentation burdens when Governors like Florida's Jeb Bush want to cut all Medicaid funding to secure such medication documentation for the poor and disabled?

The problems are just so epidemic and pandemic and pervade every part of a disabled person's life. My entire life has truly been a battle swmming upstream against a very strong current that wants to sweep me back down and out to sea.

Aside from SUING everybody and bringing "writs of mandinkas," what can be done? Hopefully a lot of voiciferousness, continuing to repeat unpopular ideas, eventually winning friends and allies who believe the disabled have talents and abilities that are worthy of life opportunities, and NEVER giving up and failing to speak out about the things that are just plain wrong. My Constitutional Law Professor, Charles Reich of Yale Law School, seeing the nature of my disabilities but also my talents, taught me that the pen is indeed mightier than the sword -- and THAT means exercising First Amendment rights.

There is a way around some of this, and that is to acquire a very good knowledge of international treaties, customary international law, our Constitution (all of it), and classes of cases like the Alien Tort Claims Act and Torture Victims Protection Act, where preexisting federal legislation can be used to "implement" or enforce these international human rights treaties and customary inernational law. It appears the ADA would qualify for this, and such an approach could strengthen the rights available for the disabled as well as the ADA by removing the dispute over an Eleventh Amendment bar, but THAT would be the topic of a private Harvard Law Review article some friend of the disabled and Supreme Court Justice of the future should research and write.

I have more than 4" thick of medical documentation, I also have a "record" of my disabilities through several State and Federal agencies, not to mention on the California Bar Examination, but I am still having a heck of a time getting a federal District Court Judge to recognize the need to give disabled people extra time to file pleadings so they can reach the merits of their case, because she holds "managing the federal docket" to be a more important interest. A never ending battle, which I do not think will ever end until the day the Supreme Court is willing to put an autistic on the front of the Supreme Court building or the President is willing to nominate one to be a Supreme Court Justice just as there have been built wheelchair ramps at that location.

If you wish to PT me, for further discussion, I would welcome that. And as I have stated, I would have no problem lunging my horse at 3 am and meeting the gnomes, Rudolph the Red-nosed Reindeer (a disabling costmetic disfigurement) and the entire island of the misfit toys (a whole LOT of the disabled).

[This message was edited by CellosPride on Apr. 25, 2004 at 02:53 PM.]

Everythingbutwings
Apr. 25, 2004, 11:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Schooling is done at home and Showing (what you've learned and taught your horse) is done at the Show.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliantly stated. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

CellosPride
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:02 PM
LordHelpus, for the reasons in the ABA J., Aug. 22, 2003, and perhaps that the State Bar Court and Chief Justice of the Supreme Court do not believe an autistic should be a lawyer. If "moral character" is the issue, why would a repeated habitual felon who stabbed his relative 22 times with a pair of scissors and killed her get in, but not an autistic with no criminal record who simply needs certain unpopular accommodations?

Moathouse, I guess you must have gone to the same "psychotherapy by trade" school as Sqeezix, diagnosis by internet of people whose medical documentation you have never seen, with no differential analysis. What a life lesson in what people with disabilities experience everyday we have on this thread. Sighhh ...

Giddy-up
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:05 PM
Ok, recap here so I know I am following correctly (and so some other poor person doesn't have to read thru 11 pages):
CP is disabled. With what we don't know because it's invisible & she can't afford the expensive tests that insurance won't cover to find out for sure. She has a jumper that wins 50% of the time when it shows that needs 15 minutes on the lunge yet only she can ride it cause it has issues too. She has passed the bar exam, but is not really a lawyer yet cause she hasn't been accepted (I don't know lawyer stuff & how this works so I am a little lost here) or hired by anybody yet. Her husband is a lawyer, but he has disabilities or issues or whatever you want to call it to be PC that makes it hard for her to be his secretary. They live on a boat in FL somewhere.

Am I missing anything? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif If not, there's the 11 page recap in a nutshell.

And I still think it's in the best interests of all those in the immediate area (at any show) that if there isn't enough room to allow for safe lunging, then there shouldn't be any lunging allowed DURING show hours. So yes, if you need/want to lunge, you'll have to come in the wee-wee dark hours I guess.

"...but now the gloves are coming off and it's going to get ghetto." Robby Johnson

MistyBlue
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:17 PM
"Moathouse, I guess you must have gone to the same "psychotherapy by trade" school as Sqeezix, diagnosis by internet of people whose medical documentation you have never seen, with no differential analysis."

Would this not also be considered a violation of the First as previously defined by CP?
And as far as I know...psychotherapists do not use the medical records to diagnose people...they work by talking to them....Or at least my daughter does. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And for what it's worth...I have a cousin who stutters and was diagnosed with ADHD. He rejected the ADHD diagnoses (doesn't think it's an actual disability) and he does very well without even thinking he has a disability. Unless of course someone with a military career who designs the aircraft that keeps us free to have attorneys isn't doing well. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

DMK
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:18 PM
cellospride, what say you just accept that we all know that you think you have a case against whatever and whomever as it relates to the ADA, and your person, restrict yourself to replies that are related to horses* and get back to us when you have won your case or whatever it is you are trying to do (frankly I thought some folks in Tennessee already fielded this ball, but hey, Nina Totenburg could have left out a few details)...

At that point I'm sure we will all be properly impressed.

In the meantime, surely your efforts could be better spent on that parties that can directly affect your case, don't you think?

* For instance, I am sure plenty of folks would love to hear how you manage to afford and show a horse with all the adversity (financial, emotional and physical if I get the gist of your replies correctly) you face.

Somewhere in Texas a village is missing its idiot. www.seeyageorge.com (http://www.seeyageorge.com)

becca's boys
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:29 PM
You know, after reading this thread (I can't believe I actually wasted half of my saturday doing so)....I propose we sign a petition to allow Cellos Pride to lunge at Devon.

Anyone suffering from autism, Down's syndrome, dyslexia, brain and cervical injuries (and so on) who is married to a broke, ADHD, dyslexic attorney living on a leaky sailboat....deserves a little sympathy and at the very least a special "Devon lungeing pass". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

JAGold
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:32 PM
Of all the, er, content in this thread, I can't believe this is what I'm choosing to comment on, but here goes:

Cello's Pride states <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The biggest mistake I ever made in the world was applying to Stanford law school where they do not value equestrian achievements instead of Harvard, but such is life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Can I ask why in the world a law school should value equestrian achievements? Do you have any evidence that Harvard Law school does value equestrian achievements?

But here's the bottom line: you aren't going to Devon, so the lunging or lack thereof don't affect you at all. In fact, if you were going to Devon, you'd be able to lunge, since there is butt-crack-o-dawn lunging. And if there is another disabled person who for some reason needs lunging as a special accomodation, presumably that person would take up the case individually with show management and USAE. So what, exactly, are you trying to accomplish here?

The ADA requires reasonable accomodations, but it doesn't require that individuals like or even be nice to people needing accomodations. Luckily, Erin and the COTH have more stringent standards http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif --Jess

El Grande Stimpendo
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:36 PM
I think the part about the sailboat being leaky is a mute point.

Albion
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:47 PM
JAGold, I couldn't agree more on the 'equestrian achievements' point.

What difference do equestrian achievements make in selecting the best candidates for grad schools? Did you get into Stanford? If not, perhaps it's because you didn't meet what they felt were acceptable LSAT/undergrad requirements. My mother had NO extracurriculars & got into Princeton for grad school. Why? They didn't CARE about all that extraneous stuff - she was NOT coming there to 'do' outside things, she was coming to study under the best of the best & produce Ivy League quality work. She got in on the basis of her grades, her GRE scores, her application, and her portfolio of work. As it should be for graduate school.

I would be thoroughly pissed if I was rejected from grad school merely on the basis that someone else had 'equestrian achievements' that I didn't. Perhaps it's because my discipline values academic work over extracurriculars - and most profs. don't CARE what you do OUTSIDE of academia, they care about what you are producing for THEM.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

Just My Style
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You know, after reading this thread (I can't believe I actually wasted half of my saturday doing so)....I propose we sign a petition to allow Cellos Pride to lunge at Devon.

Anyone suffering from autism, Down's syndrome, dyslexia, brain and cervical injuries (and so on) who is married to a broke, ADHD, dyslexic attorney living on a leaky sailboat....deserves a little sympathy and at the very least a special "Devon lungeing pass". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I would sign that petition. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

3eme
Apr. 25, 2004, 12:53 PM
Here's an idea: sell your horse and then use the $$ to get medical testing, or an apartment? I mean, it's gotta SUCK being all disabled and living in a leaky sailboat!

Maybe I'm being thick, CP, but I didn't understand your Harvard vs. Stanford reference. Which one did you attend?

P.S. I HATE lunging. All that turning around and around and around always makes me wanna puke! I mean, I can't say I'd mind the ass-crack of dawn three a.m. thing, if I ever were to make the trek to Devon (highly unlikely given the commute), but all that turning around and around in such a small space! GEEZ What a nightmare...

moathouse
Apr. 25, 2004, 01:08 PM
CP


Do not presume to "know"ANYTHING about me you cannot prove. My posts do not reveal the least bit about my education, background,profession,or involvement in the Horse world as you see fit to interpret it.


Again and I repeat, does any of this sound familiar?
American Description of OPPOSITIONAL DEFIANT DISORDER (as opposed to other cultures)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diagnostic Criteria
A pattern of negativistic, hostile, and defiant behavior lasting at least 6 months, during which four (or more) of the following are present:
often loses temper
often argues with adults
often actively defies or refuses to comply with adults' requests or rules
often deliberately annoys people
often blames others for his or her mistakes or misbehavior
is often touchy or easily annoyed by others
is often angry and resentful
is often spiteful or vindictive
Note: Consider a criterion met only if the behavior occurs more frequently than is typically observed in individuals of comparable age and developmental level.

The disturbance in behavior causes clinically significant impairment in social, academic, or occupational functioning.
The behaviors do not occur exclusively during the course of a Psychotic or Mood Disorder.
Criteria are not met for Conduct Disorder, and, if the individual is age 18 years or older, criteria are not met for Antisocial Personality Disorder.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"All things bright and beautiful,all Creatures great and small..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[This message was edited by moathouse on Apr. 25, 2004 at 04:17 PM.]

El Grande Stimpendo
Apr. 25, 2004, 01:10 PM
Wow - that's not a very flattering description of Americans. I think you're being a little harsh.

edit - Oh now I read you.

[This message was edited by trop tard on Apr. 25, 2004 at 04:21 PM.]

clearound
Apr. 25, 2004, 01:17 PM
OK, so the Husband has ADHD and is also dyslexic, but Cellos Pride isn't. If she knew that a Writ of Mandinkas, was really a Writ of Mandamus, why did she feel compelled to use the wrong term. I think that she is a figment of her own imagination and that this topic should be locked. 99.9 percent of what she has stated here is totally off topic. Please someone lock it!

moathouse
Apr. 25, 2004, 01:18 PM
trop tard

please see my edited post as pertains to what the description was referring to


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"All things bright and beautiful,all Creatures great and small..."
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Heidi
Apr. 25, 2004, 01:50 PM
As DMK pointed out, perhaps CP's efforts would be better invested on another BB, rather than a horse BB.

If you are so fiercely passionate about the ADA, perhaps you should consider that you do it a GRAVE DISSERVICE by posting as you do, ad nauseum, jamming and cramming in irrevelant references, interspersed with threats of lawsuits, and demands for pity.

I'm pretty certain that the ADA strives to equalize opportunity for all disabled people -- underlined by the theory that people shouldn't be defined by their disability and consequently denied rights. Oddly enough, it seems that YOU can only define yourself by your disabilities, venturing as far as demanding preferential treatment for a hypothetical scenario.

Go figure.

El Grande Stimpendo
Apr. 25, 2004, 02:00 PM
Old sailors never die. They just get a little dinghy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Dancing Lawn
Apr. 25, 2004, 02:45 PM
All of this is highly entertaining, but what it has to do with lungeing, I have no idea. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Still, keep it up. Laughter is good for all of us!

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com) updated April 4/04 http://community.webshots.com/user/dancinglawn
httpIf guys can do it, how hard can it be?

trailblazer
Apr. 25, 2004, 02:49 PM
CP, if you really were disabled, you wouldn't mention it in every post. The disabled people I know are busy trying to lead as normal a life as possible. They never bring their disabilties up unless they have to. And they NEVER falsely accuse people of discrimination.

I wonder how the ABA would feel if they saw your antics here?

Heidi
Apr. 25, 2004, 02:55 PM
You're laughing at me again, aren't you, dancing lawn? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Once I've completed my own writ, The Writ of Heidinka, in my battle against show managers who'd deny all bumless, near-sighted, squat-short Asians the right to show in ground-pole puissance classes, I shall have my attorney husband, afflicted as he is with a Slavic crag of a nose and the inability to coordinate his khaki pants with an appropriate shirt, contact your legal representatives and the publishers of COTH to demand an apology. While I'm at it, I demand one from Erin! She wrote once that she was tall and had a bum.

CellosPride
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:11 PM
DMK, the Tennessee folks left out one big important detail (oops) -- Congress delegated to DOJ the authority to promulgate the implementing regulations requiring an ADA Self-Evaluation of the State's consent-to-be-sued laws, so the States would assemble the record of proportionality and congruence under Section 5 of the Fourteenth Amendment, and as far as I have read the case Tennessee never sustained its burden of proving it accomplished this Self-Evaluation federal-mandate step in the record of that case regarding whether or not it would need to consent to be sued, so the entire Eleventh Amendment issue now before the Supreme Court is not ripe and the Court is about to render an advisory opinion for which there is no case or controversy. We also know that last year DOJ whacked Tennessee for enacting, maintaining, and failiing to repeal four statutes on the books that imposed blanket exclusions of the mentally disabled from police officer positions and made Tennessee enter into a consent decree or settlement agreement to repeal them. No doubt these noncompiant statutes existed due to the failure to comply with the ADA Self-Evaluation federal-mandate. A small detail ...

I have not been able to afford to show my horse for more than 2 years due to the adversity, but before that, after the lawyer who employed me for three years with a voice-activation system dismantled my voice-activation system, and no other legal employer would hire me absent that voice-activation system, I made my own job by using part of my last paycheck to buy a $950 1/2 Swedish Warmblood large pony, which became a quiet lesson type, I gave a few lessons on her for income which turned into a horse business in the meantime for which I self-accommodated the physical tasks I am unable to do by hiring ranch hands, until the same lawyer who dismantled the voice-activation system helped me with a little contract dispute, and (according to another attorney who wanted to take an errors and omission case against him), he failed without cause to apply for and secure injunctive relief, taking down my horse business in the ensuing litigation he created --all because I could not handle it myself due to lack of the dictation accommodations.

Mistyblue, that's why there is less scientific basis for a psychoterapist diagnosis by internet without the benefit of underlying medical history, as opposed to actual medical doctors who do evaluate such history.

Giddyup, you truncated the story, and in doing so, misconstrued several details, which casts it all in an inaccurate light by implying that one event had a causation effect on another when that is not accurate. That is the problem when so many know and care so little about disabilities, which is at the heart of the why there is presently such a vigorous civil rights fight going on in this Country on behalf of the disabled. Unfortunately the disabled will never achieve fair and equal opportunities until they get fair and accurate understanding of their disabilities and accommodation needs.

CellosPride
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:18 PM
Moathouse, how do you arrive at a personality disorder without addressing medical documentation and history of a general medical condition, any Axis I or II disorders, and without a differential analysis -- or do you just make it up as you go? Just curious.

RegentLion
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:25 PM
In my mind I am a very literate individual...

but somehow I am almost completely unable to understand a word that CP writes...

I too am not sure what she suffers (?!?!) from... and so on and so forth.

This thread was funny for a very long time, and I thought of posting some sort of a witty remark somewhere on the third or fourth pages...

But now, I'm really without words... (does this count as a disability?) AND on top of it I CAN'T STOP READING THIS THREAD!

If I *fail* my exams from this, can I sue? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Jaysee
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:26 PM
Huh? ranch hands? voiciferousness (sic)? mandinka? leaky vessels? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif And this has to do with lunging at Devon how? If and when you get in to Devon, just do as everyone else does; get up early (before the show starts , of course), stand in line and wait your turn (kinda like indoors isn't it?). http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif


:::: kinda hoping BVF sees this thread and decides to contribute ::::
~*~*~*~*~*~
Boycott Clear Channel

Everythingbutwings
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:35 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>)....I propose we sign a petition to allow Cellos Pride to lunge at Devon.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I propose that a petition be put forth to allow me to show at Devon. I have no handicaps, just no money. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think that CP is in reality a Nigerian email scam artist posing as an almost accredited California lawyer who has a horse and a bridge to sell to the only remaining non spammed bb member. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

That has as much to do with lungeing at Devon as the last several pages that CP has posted on the subject.

It remains a rule. No lungeing while the show is in session. A rule for the safety of all involved and not one that is difficult to understand.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

zedcadjna
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:38 PM
CellosPride
Training Level

posted Apr 21, 04 02:28 PM
Well, I don't know about the stereotype that a disabled person's horse would be "pretty darn bombproof," unless you are only thinking about the kinds of disabilities you can see which are physical disabilities. I have a combination of autistic spectrum/specific learning disabilities, impacted by cervical injury and my 17 hand TB jumper is definitely not "pretty darn bombproof;" in fact, he is so hot and sensitive I have yet to see someone able to jump him other than myself,)


I bet alot of us could ride her horse... HaHa http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifI am so confused by this C.P person.. Too many problems for me..Geez Wiz!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/zedcadjna

Everythingbutwings
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>)....I propose we sign a petition to allow Cellos Pride to lunge at Devon.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I propose that a petition be put forth to allow me to show at Devon. I have no handicaps, just no money. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I think that CP is in reality a Nigerian email scam artist posing as an almost accredited California lawyer

Everythingbutwings
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> after the lawyer who employed me for three years with a voice-activation system dismantled my voice-activation system, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Edited by ETBW to remove completely non-PC and pointless observation. You feel free to fill in the response http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

JEP
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dancing lawn:
All of this is highly entertaining, but what it has to do with lungeing, I have no idea. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Still, keep it up. Laughter is good for all of us!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

FINALLY! After 12 pages, I have at long last found the first post to which I can say "Right on!!!"

I'm sure many people have given up on following this craziness we call a thread, and I certainly don't blame them...Lunging? Lawyers? Leaky boats? Devon? Dreams? Disabilities? Donny?!?!

I always chuckle when I read the title of the thread and think about those who must skip it thinking "oy, another stupid "A" show thread"...

HOWEVER, I feel that I have truly benefitted from the hours (and I do mean hours) of trying to figure out what the heck is going on here, as it has reinforced one of the most valuable lessons I've learned here on the boards... DON'T FORGET TO TAKE YOUR CRAZY PILLS!!!

El Grande Stimpendo
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:54 PM
Do they still have a leaky roof circuit? Last time I stayed at the Watergate there was a doorman in a funny uniform. My dog barks some. Mentally, you picture my dog. Yet I have not yet told you what type of dog I have. WOOF!

trailblazer
Apr. 25, 2004, 03:57 PM
I found out the secret behind CP's voluminous posts!

http://www.elsewhere.org/cgi-bin/postmodern/

Refresh to see what I mean! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Yes, it's random. And no, it doesn't make any sense.

CP, it's clear you have some sort of personality disorder. One word for you: MEDS! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

xegeba
Apr. 25, 2004, 04:01 PM
CellosPride!!!! You went to STANFORD???? Forget Jacks, I'll meet you at the Big O, Burgers, Beer....... It is turning out we have so much in common!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DMK
Apr. 25, 2004, 04:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
I have no handicaps, just no money. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As it turns out, when it comes to horses and horse showing, this would be the most crippling handicap of all. One can only wonder who will take up our cause?

As for your subsequent post, thanks a lot. I'm housesitting. That wasn't MY monitor I had to clean up! (But one could understand the tempation to dismantle)

Somewhere in Texas a village is missing its idiot. www.seeyageorge.com (http://www.seeyageorge.com)

CellosPride
Apr. 25, 2004, 04:20 PM
Xegeba, I did not get to go to Stanford because I am like those Alaksa high school students who just sued and won because they can;t take standardized tests, and they did not value equestrian achievements of any value unilke footbal or soccar or some other sport. So I had to settle for a different ABA acredited law school.

Now as far as being unfairly picked on on this thread by a bunch of bullies because of the nature of my communication disabilities and being called a "Nigerian scam artist" and a "fraud" in light of all of my medical documentation, and being ridiculed and humiliated because of my disabilities, I am quite certain that I will take this into a federal court with my medical documentation and present this thread and how I have been treated there to a court and se what a real judge thinks about this. I would feel like it was not right if I did not do that and this happened to someone else who posted here in the first place for the love of horses.