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View Full Version : Speaking of breaking rules/cheating...



Kinsella
Feb. 27, 2012, 01:59 PM
How smart (or NOT) do you have to be to put in a sales ad that includes video of a horse jumping around the Pre-Green division the following (and I quote!)

***** is a fancy, easy, great jumping 7 year old Hanoverian gelding. Recently imported from Germany where he was doing the 1.25 meter jumpers, ***** has fully embraced his new life a a hunter. He will measure a small junior and is a wonderful horse
Bolding is mine. Hello, brilliant - if he was doing the 1.25 jumpers in Germany, he doesn't quite meet the specs for being eligible for a 2nd Year Green, much less a Pre-Green, so maybe you should rethink either you showing plans or your advertising strategy...

auhunter
Feb. 27, 2012, 02:36 PM
Pardon my ignorance. Does is matter what the horse did in Germany if he was not registed with USEF or FEI? I know of one or two that had jumper experience in europe but once they were brought to US they were elligible for everything here. They did not change names or anything.

Have not checked the USEF rule book. Guess I should go look before I ask.

ifiwereyou
Feb. 27, 2012, 02:40 PM
If the horse was doing unrated (FEI) or nationally unrated jumpers in Europe, that doesn't count towards their "green" status in the US.

Lucassb
Feb. 27, 2012, 02:51 PM
How smart (or NOT) do you have to be to put in a sales ad that includes video of a horse jumping around the Pre-Green division the following (and I quote!)

***** is a fancy, easy, great jumping 7 year old Hanoverian gelding. Recently imported from Germany where he was doing the 1.25 meter jumpers, ***** has fully embraced his new life a a hunter. He will measure a small junior and is a wonderful horse


Bolding is mine. Hello, brilliant - if he was doing the 1.25 jumpers in Germany, he doesn't quite meet the specs for being eligible for a 2nd Year Green, much less a Pre-Green, so maybe you should rethink either you showing plans or your advertising strategy...

IIRC, the wording for PG eligibility tends to vary by Zone, or at least it did the last time I had a PG showing (2 years ago.)

Unless the Zones submit their own criteria by August 1 (?) the division rule follows something similar to: "a Pre-Green Hunter is a horse of any age in his first year of showing over 3’ fences at Regular Competitions or Eventing Competitions of the Federation or Equine Canada or any national or international competition in any classes that require horses to jump 3’ or higher." (bolding mine.)

I can see your point about advertising the horse has show experience at 1.25m, but technically that could have been experience solely at unrated shows - in Germany or here - in which case the horse would still be eligible under the rule outlined above.

Janet
Feb. 27, 2012, 02:57 PM
Pardon my ignorance. Does is matter what the horse did in Germany if he was not registed with USEF or FEI? I know of one or two that had jumper experience in europe but once they were brought to US they were elligible for everything here. They did not change names or anything.

Have not checked the USEF rule book. Guess I should go look before I ask.
If it was at a show recognized by the National Federation... It counts for "Green".

Whether or not it counts for Pre-Green depends on whether the Zone has their own Pre-Green specs. Some of them do, and some of them don't count (or at least didn't the last time I checked) non US/Canada shows.

Equilibrium
Feb. 28, 2012, 01:06 AM
From the wording they were actual classes. I'm sorry, what exactly passes for a rated show here in Europe? Do tell? Horse's record would be easy enough to find if you knew his passport Reg name.

And the weekly point shows might not be "rated" in the sense you all would think, but they are. Rated in the sense you are recorded and receive points. FYI most "unrated" shows don't have 1.25m classes. There is a point to taking horses to shows. A proven track record anyone can look up. Meaning if you are selling horses you can back up your claims that horse did what you said. I can't think of anyone over here that would buy a 1.20 horse without checking the record. And if you try and explain it away that you didn't register said horse, nobody will believe it's a 1.20m horse anyway.

Terri

jr
Feb. 28, 2012, 04:28 AM
Not cheating. Horse was not competing in US rated or Canadian rated shows. Ok by USEF rules. Horses likely not competing in rated shows in Germany. Lots of local competition. That's how they are able to get so many horses mileage economically.. On a practical note, big difference between hunters and jumpers. Perfectly reasonable for a youngish jumper doing 4ft classes to drop back to learn his new job.

S A McKee
Feb. 28, 2012, 08:07 AM
Not cheating. Horse was not competing in US rated or Canadian rated shows. Ok by USEF rules. Horses likely not competing in rated shows in Germany. Lots of local competition. That's how they are able to get so many horses mileage economically.. On a practical note, big difference between hunters and jumpers. Perfectly reasonable for a youngish jumper doing 4ft classes to drop back to learn his new job.

Not OK by USEF rules.

"A Green Hunter is a horse of any age in its first or second year of showing in any classes in which the national specifications require horses to jump 3’6” or higher, regardless of whether or not the fences are actually set at 3’6” or higher at Regular Competitions or Eventing Competitions
of the Federation or Equine Canada or any national or international competition"

PreGreen Hunters in every Zone that I've looked at uses National Specs.

"a. A Pre-Green Hunter is a horse of any age in his first or second year of showing over 3’or 3’3” fences that has never competed over fences of 3’6” (1.07m) or higher"

Bolded for emphasis

Janet
Feb. 28, 2012, 09:13 AM
Ok by USEF rules..
I would strongly suggest that people (not just you) actually LOOK AT THE RULEBOOK before declaring "OK by USEF rules".

Or even just read the other posts on this thread which quote the rule book.

NO, NOT "Ok by USEF rules" if the European show was at a "National" competition.

Possibly OK if the horse ONLY when in unsanctioned shows.

Kinsella
Feb. 28, 2012, 09:34 AM
I'm very sad for the hunter world after reading some of these responses. No wonder a real green horse has no chance at the shows... :no:

CHSatwork
Feb. 28, 2012, 06:34 PM
Amen Kinsella. That's why we rarely show anymore.:yes:

Equilibrium
Feb. 28, 2012, 07:08 PM
jr,

Did you not read what I wrote. The little competitions you refer to, and the how else do they put mileage on horses comments. You don't have a clue. See most jumping over here is for buying, selling, and or making pedigrees. If you don't want to do that then you join the riding club. The RC does not jump 1.25m. Nobody takes a horse to shows for just mileage without something to back that up. All recorded. Do you all buy 1.25m horses because someone said that's what they jump? I'm guessing you don't. You'd have evidence to support that.

I'm not a bright person but the rules written above makes it quite clear the horse is in violation of the rules.

Terri

Serah
Feb. 29, 2012, 01:31 AM
While I understand the argument, a lot of horses from Europe who have experience in the jumpers are very green to the hunters. They are not used to jumping flowers and brush, and the quieter pace, loopy rein, half seat ride.

In my experience, the hunters I have broke and raised as hunters were easier in the pre green division and green working divisions than the ones who came from Europe and had earlier jumper careers.

Whats next? Excluding horses that have free jumped over 3'6" for their breed registries?

Lucassb
Feb. 29, 2012, 07:38 AM
I'm very sad for the hunter world after reading some of these responses. No wonder a real green horse has no chance at the shows... :no:

I understand the concern about horses with unrated show experience being more competitive in the BG/PG rings... but I do not agree that a real green horse has no chance to be successful.

I personally took a 3 year old (a few months shy of his 4th birthday to be exact) to WEF a couple of years ago. He was dead green when I got him in the fall and jumped his first jumps ever in my trainer's backyard in the middle of November. We showed him at WEF - with ribbons - in the baby greens in February. In fact, he was third over fences there in his first class EVER - he had never even set foot on a show grounds prior to that day.

It can be done, but it requires the horse to be of the appropriate talent and temperament, and proper training so that the horse can display the necessary skills in the ring.

Kinsella
Feb. 29, 2012, 08:50 AM
Yes, it can be done. But were you showing your not quite 4yo in the open baby greens or the 3 & 4yo division? Either way, congratulations on your success and obviously nice youngster. (what's it doing now? I hope it's a great packer for an adult ammy! - and yes, I am serious)

Not that it matters in the intent of the rules, but the horse I quoted the ad from is 7. Had he been 4, this thread wouldn't be here because he wouldn't have been jumping 1.25m in Germany, and would be appropriately "green".

Free jumping has no bearing on jumping a course of jumps. None at all. And spooky flowers and loopy reins are all things that can be done either at home or in the unrated/schooling divisions.

supershorty628
Feb. 29, 2012, 09:26 AM
^He is showing in the amateur and open divisions and is the May (?) photo in the Bevals calendar this year :)

This thread reminds me of way back in the day when I was showing ponies and the top green pony in the country was a successful pony jumper in Europe before it was imported... nothing green about it.

Janet
Feb. 29, 2012, 11:04 AM
While I understand the argument, a lot of horses from Europe who have experience in the jumpers are very green to the hunters. They are not used to jumping flowers and brush, and the quieter pace, loopy rein, half seat ride.

In my experience, the hunters I have broke and raised as hunters were easier in the pre green division and green working divisions than the ones who came from Europe and had earlier jumper careers.
A couple of years ago, someone (don't remember if it was an individual or USHJA) put forward a rule change proposal that effectively would have meant that jumping over 3'6" in jumpers or eventing wouldn't "count" for Green staus in Hunters.

The rule change was NOT approved.

You can always try again, but I wouldn't hold my breath.

cookie-monster
Feb. 29, 2012, 11:08 AM
It most certainly does count as having broken green/pre-green status. Amen Kinsella! Some people will never understand the rule, whether by choice or because of the way it is written. Perhaps I should submit a rule change proposal and rewrite it by changing the wording to say that jumping that height or higher at ANY show ANYwhere in the WORLD will break the horse's green status, and if you can't understand, or chose not to, Karma will kick your a$$ !