Some horses need shoeing, some don't [Archive] - Page 2

trailblazer

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:23 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
The indisputable fact that shod horses run faster, jump higher and pull more weight suggests that shoeing is instrumental in their success. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Your "fact" is obviously not indisputable. Otherwise, we wouldn't be disputing it here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The fact there are no appreciable numbers of barefooted horses engaged in these activities suggests barefooted horses are unable to compete equitably with shod horses. One hears stories of the great and wondrous accomplishments of barefooted horses, but tangible evidence of their success when compared to shod horses is so scarce, the stories appear to be apocryphal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I do dressage, eventing, and CTRs with my barefoot horses. But that is not good enough for you because I am not at the very highest levels? I can't control what those at the highest levels do, and frankly I don't care. I can only control what I do, and I do what works. Why should I put shoes on a horse who doesn't need them?

You still haven't grasped that correlation does not imply causation. Shod horses also come in last at races. So that must mean that shoes slowed them down?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Please do not make the mistake of arguing that something is so because no one has proved it not so, that's a logical fallacy, akin to arguing that the moon is made from green cheese because no one has proved it's made from stouter stuff. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Excuse me, that is EXACTLY what you are arguing! No one has disproved your hypothesis to your satisfaction. So you are arguing that that makes it true...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>On to concussion: Concussion is a major player in several pathologies affecting the hoof, but there is no credible evidence suggesting shoes play a significant part in the process. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I guess you conveniently forgot swampgum's reference to Bein... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>No disrespect intended, but the only places I've ever seen Bein's dissertation mentioned are on the strasserite websites, so it's not exactly "revealed." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The fact that you disagree with Strasser does not make Bein wrong. Ad hominem attacks seem to be the crux of your arguments. Making your point without them would be much more effective.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>As far as "repercussions", the benefits of shoeing greatly exceed any downside when shoes are properly applied to horses that need shoeing for reasons stated previously. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The benefits outweigh the costs for some horses. Certain horses with bad feet and/or legs. Horses whose hooves are worn down faster than they grow. But do the benefits (if there are any) outweigh the costs for horses with GOOD feet? How to shoes benefit a horse with thick walls and rock-hard hooves? If you would just recognize that sometimes the benefits do not outweigh the costs, I don't think we would be having this discussion.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>It appears you might benefit by reading Heymering's criticism of Strasser's barefoot cult: http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/207f2.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Unfortunately, Heymering is a member of the "shoes-do-no-harm" cult. Therefore his criticism does not "reveal" anything! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:41 AM

Very basic stupid question here...I am sure they exist??? Studies showing a metal shoe REDUCES concussion over barefoot?

Or is that just accepted?

Txfarrier11

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:52 AM

Der Dutchman singt, "Die fahne ist, die Strasser Truppen marcherien hoch................."

slb

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Very basic stupid question here...I am sure they exist??? Studies showing a metal shoe REDUCES concussion over barefoot?

Or is that just accepted? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Study showing "shoes" reduce concussion over a barefoot...but I am not saying which ones. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:56 AM

slb you are such a tease...

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:58 AM

oh silly dutch....strasser troops ain't marching no where...

it seems to me if there are studies saying shoes reduce concussion, then that is that...I am serious when I say they do exist...I just actually never thought about it...*shrugs*

Heck-I never thought this thread should sail THIS direction anyway! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Melelio

Sep. 7, 2004, 11:59 AM

OK, I've been entertaining myself reading this thread over the past few days, and wonder who took all the hot air outta TS, CJF? LOL

Here's an interesting article by a DVM, Dr. Tesky, that I came across while looking for studies that say shoes don't cause concussion (?!?!?! How is that possible? I can't see it)

Thought you all might like to read it,s ince it really puts everything together that's been spoekn of here....

A Veterinary Medical and Ethical Perspective On the Modern Day Usage of Steel Horseshoes (http://www.thehorseshoof.com/TeskeyBreaking.html)

Whatcha think? He full of it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

edited to add: I like the Buddha quote.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:00 PM

OK-I recall something on this now---metal shoes increase concussion BUT it is debateable whether the increase is significant in the overall scheme of things....

fancy material non metal shoes reduce concussion.

Is that right slb?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:01 PM

Oh my Dr Tesky...the mention of THAT name should liven things up QUITE a bit! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:05 PM

Melilio, thanks for posting that article. I've read it before and the difficulty I have with it is that it states studies have been done supporting the views expressed, but it doesn't footnote those studies. And thereby give access to the research material.

Tom Stovall, CJF

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by CHJoker:
Hey guys...Read this article:
http://www.marthaolivo.com/articles/article21.shtml

It has the pictures to prove that this horse can jump just as high, and as fast, as all the others in his class. Read through to the end, where it states the author was denied a place on a team due to refusing to put on shoes...

VERY interesting. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To my knowledge, there are no rules requiring the use of shoes in any discipline other than racing - anyone can compete with a horse shod, booted, or barefooted as the spirit moves them.

One can only wonder: If the barefoot crowd
feels a single horse winning a small competition
is somehow signficant, how significant is the fact that similar competitions by the tens of thousands have been won by horses wearing shoes?

slb

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Unfortunately, Heymering is a member of the "shoes-do-no-harm" cult. Therefore his criticism does not "reveal" anything! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Actually, Heymering did his homework before writing that piece. He was on the Strasser board for months asking serious questions, he called several Strasser trimmers/owners of Strasser trimmed horses (including an upper level endurance rider), he visited horses with "Strasser trims", and he discussed this at length with several non-Strasserites that frequent the barefoot boards....I being one.

He was very devoted to discovering the truth and these are, IMO, honest obeservations.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:08 PM

It's such a shame Mr. EasyWalker doesn't come round any more. He seemed very nice. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Wasn't his shoes based on the premise they reduce concession? Maybe he has some studies.

Melelio

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:10 PM

Bea, on the studies part, I haven't yet found ANYone to post a good study link on pro OR con....Perhaps there just haven't been any done yet. There's no one to benefit by them except for the horse owners, really. And no horse owner will pay for someone to do a study to show that one is better over another. Of COURSE the farrier assocs would want to do studies to show shoes are not bad....can't make a living off of trims LOL

I'd really like to see real, non-biased studies both ways. I'll probably always be pro-barefoot, but if we're going to argue apples and oranges, and demand controlled studies before anyone will feel validated, then we'd best all start coming up with them http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:15 PM

I just re-read they Heymering article...read it awhile back...I actually thought this was a very well presented article.

He actually addresses the fact that there are no studies on the effect of shoeing on circulation...and yes this is where I read about the increased concussion but not being of a huge amount.

But with THIS little gem, it opens up a whole new can of worms IMO-and that is the whole Strasser debate....because even here, Heymering is talking about Strasser-not just barefoot-and even cites Jackson, et. al. as info for HIS position.

So obviously as we cannot lump all farriers in one boiling pot, we cannot throw all barefoot proponents into the pot next door.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:20 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Melelio:I'd really like to see real, non-biased studies both ways. I'll probably always be pro-barefoot, but if we're going to argue apples and oranges, and demand controlled studies before anyone will feel validated, then we'd best all start coming up with them http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Really good point, Melelio. And I completely agree. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Melelio

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:28 PM

Here's another interesting article on the same site as the Heymering article. It talks about 'sting' using metal shoes:

Using Aluminum shoe on Quarter Horses (http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/usalsonq.htm)

trailblazer

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
One can only wonder: If the barefoot crowd
feels a single horse winning a small competition
is somehow signficant, how significant is the fact that similar competitions by the tens of thousands have been won by horses wearing shoes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sigh... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif What about the tens of thousands that have been LOST by horses wearing shoes? I don't see how this proves anything one way or the other. Correlation does not imply causation! (Why do I get the feeling that I am repeating myself?)

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Melelio:
Here's another interesting article on the same site as the Heymering article. It talks about 'sting' using metal shoes:

http://www.anvilmag.com/farrier/usalsonq.htm <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do those heel looks underrun and does that frog look sad and long and skinny to anyone but me?

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:49 PM

I'm looking through studies on PubMed if anyone cares to join me, only abstracts available of course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Took a break to carry this abstract back as it caught my eye. Does it look like it relates to the rise the heels, lower the heels debate? Can anyone explain what it means. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Zentralbl Veterinarmed A. 2000 Mar;47(2):73-82. Related Articles, Links

The effect of flat horseshoes, raised heels and lowered heels on the biomechanics of the equine hoof assessed by finite element analysis (FEA).

Hinterhofer C, Stanek C, Haider H.

Clinic of Orthopaedics in Ungulates, University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna, Austria. Christine.Hinterhofer@vu-wien.ac.at

The biomechanical effects of lowering and raising the heels were studied using a finite element (FE) computer model of the equine hoof capsule consisting of 18,635 finite elements. A static load of 3000 N was distributed to nodes of the inner hoof wall (80%) according to the suspension of the coffin bone, 20% loaded sole and frog. When loaded the FE hoof capsules showed the following deformations: the proximal dorsal wall moves back, the quarters flare to the side and sole and frog perform a downward movement. Stresses are high in the material surrounding the quarter nails, in the heels and in the proximal dorsal wall. Three types of horseshoes were simulated, a regular shoe with flat branches, a shoe with 5 degrees raised heels and a shoe with 5 degrees lowered heels. Raising the heels resulted in significantly (P < 0.05) low stress and displacement values. The lowered heels model calculated highest stress and displacement values and the results of the FE model with the regular horseshoe were found in between

Tom Stovall, CJF

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Melelio:
OK, I've been entertaining myself reading this thread over the past few days, and wonder who took all the hot air outta TS, CJF? LOL
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I live to provide entertainment for the eaisly amused. Sometimes, they learn something in spite of themselves.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Here's an interesting article by a DVM, Dr. Tesky, that I came across while looking for studies that say shoes don't cause concussion (?!?!?! How is that possible? I can't see it)

Thought you all might like to read it,s ince it really puts everything together that's been spoekn of here....

http://www.thehorseshoof.com/TeskeyBreaking.html

Whatcha think? He full of it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Dr. Tetsky, is full of it like a Christmas Turkey with the zeal of a convert! For starters, any "study" that claims correctly nailed on shoes inhibit hoof expansion is in demonstrable error. In reality, unless there's some compelling reason for doing so, nails are NEVER driven behind the bend of the quarter - but all measurable expansion of the hoof capsule takes place behind the bend of the quarter. How exactly do nails inhibit the movement of something that's not going to move?

Doubts? Next time you see a farrier remove an aluminum shoe or race plate, ask him to allow you to examine the foot surface of the heels of the shoe closely. Most likely, you'll note a shiny place, perhaps even a small groove, indicating movement of the hoof on the shoe. Does that wear suggest the direction of expansion on the hoof's expansion is from outward to inward, or inward to outward? Why is this significant? What impact does this have on arguments claiming that correctly driven nails inhibit expansion?

Be careful, you might learn something.

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
I'm looking through studies on PubMed if anyone cares to join me, only abstracts available of course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Took a break to carry this abstract back as it caught my eye. Does it look like it relates to the rise the heels, lower the heels debate? Can anyone explain what it means. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Zentralbl Veterinarmed A. 2000 Mar;47(2):73-82. Related Articles, Links

The effect of flat horseshoes, raised heels and lowered heels on the biomechanics of the equine hoof assessed by finite element analysis (FEA).

Hinterhofer C, Stanek C, Haider H.

Clinic of Orthopaedics in Ungulates, University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna, Austria. Christine.Hinterhofer@vu-wien.ac.at

The biomechanical effects of lowering and raising the heels were studied using a finite element (FE) computer model of the equine hoof capsule consisting of 18,635 finite elements. A static load of 3000 N was distributed to nodes of the inner hoof wall (80%) according to the suspension of the coffin bone, 20% loaded sole and frog. When loaded the FE hoof capsules showed the following deformations: the proximal dorsal wall moves back, the quarters flare to the side and sole and frog perform a downward movement. Stresses are high in the material surrounding the quarter nails, in the heels and in the proximal dorsal wall. Three types of horseshoes were simulated, a regular shoe with flat branches, a shoe with 5 degrees raised heels and a shoe with 5 degrees lowered heels. Raising the heels resulted in significantly (P < 0.05) low stress and displacement values. The lowered heels model calculated highest stress and displacement values and the results of the FE model with the regular horseshoe were found in between <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I would have to ask a question or two before this would make sense to *me*...when "flat" was it balanced and aligned? so raised meant a broken forward axis? OR was the foot already broken back so raised brought it more neutral?

Because IF I am reading this report properly, it sounds like raising heels reduces stress and lowering increases (I think I smell the return of Tom http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) but without seeing the condition of the feet studied to begin with it would be hard to say.

ALSO I would also have to question if the shoe changes the effects of raising and lowering heels---in other words HOW the foot flexes changes once a shoe is applied therefore the same....ummmm....results may not apply if adjusting heel height on a barefoot horse.

Either way LOWERING a heel by 5deg if it would cause a broken back axis on any horse I would think would show increased stress.

But then again, I am just shooting from the hip here.

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 12:59 PM

I also wanted to add regarding the idea of balance-we have no idea in these horses what the toe length looks like and where the POB is (point of breakover)---the change in POB could also cause the change in stress if that wasn't addressed and heels are simply raised and lowered.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:01 PM

Here's another one. Is this saying shod horses breakover faster?

Equine Vet J Suppl. 1999 Jul;30:279-85. Related Articles, Links
The effect of shoeing on kinetics and kinematics during the stance phase.
Roepstorff L, Johnston C, Drevemo S.

Department of Equine Studies, Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences, Uppsala, Sweden.

The increasing range of of horseshoes and hoofpads makes it important to be able to evaluate their influence on performance and stress in the locomotor apparatus. The aim of this study was to describe the changes in ground reaction forces and locomotion pattern during the stance phase due to the application of a standard iron shoe. Six Swedish Warmblood horses were evaluated kinetically and kinematically before and after they were shod with an 8 mm iron shoe. Data were used to calculate ground reaction forces in the vertical and craniocaudal directions, point of application of the force, hoof segment angle and hoof joint, pastern joint, fetlock, carpal and tarsal angles. Finally joint angular velocity and landing velocity of the hoof were calculated. During the initial phase of the stance or the concussion phase, the horses altered the conditions of the limb, as reflected by hoof-landing velocities. Concussion-dampening mechanisms of the distal limb subsequently were altered. In the nonshod condition, the coffin and fetlock joints rotated more rapidly in the forelimb and less rapidly in the hindlimb, while earlier proximal off-loading by the carpus and tarsus resulted in a decrease in initial horizontal loading at the hoof. It was concluded that horses accustomed to standard iron shoes demonstrate slight but significant differences in the movement and loading of the distal limb due to shoeing. Though the main differences were related to the concussion phase of the stance, even mid-stance loading and roll-over were altered. The study provides a basis for further investigation of the effect of various farriery techniques on the hoof and movement of the horse.

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:14 PM

In the nonshod condition, the coffin and fetlock joints rotated more rapidly in the forelimb and less rapidly in the hindlimb,

doesn't that mean faster breakover in the forelimb and slower in the rear limb?

Again it is diffficult to make an absolute conclusion not knowing how the shoe was applied...for example was it set back to speed up breakover? or set to the end of the toe?

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:21 PM

This looks interesting.

Equine Vet J. 1996 Mar;28(2):126-32. Related Articles, Links
Influence of shoeing on ground reaction forces and tendon strains in the forelimbs of ponies.

Riemersma DJ, van den Bogert AJ, Jansen MO, Schamhardt HC.

Department of Veterinary Anatomy, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.

Strains in the superficial digital flexor tendon (SDFT), deep digital flexor tendon (DDFT), accessory ligament of the deep digital flexor muscle (inferior check ligament [ICL]) and the interosseus medius muscle (suspensory ligament [SL]) in the right forelimb of 5 ponies were measured using mercury-in-silastic strain gauges a few hours after implantation. Tendon strains were recorded at the walk with normal flat shoes, egg-bar shoes, a 7 degrees increased hoof angle accomplished by application of a heel-wedge and a 7 degrees decreased hoof angle using a toe-wedge, consecutively. Ground reaction forces were recorded with all 4 shoe types preoperatively and with flat shoes post operatively. The strain patterns of the SDFT, DDFT and SL showed a rapid increase at the beginning of the stance phase, followed by a plateau with a small incline or decline and a rapid decrease at the end of the stance phase. The SDFT had its maximal strain in the first half of the stance phase in all ponies. The DDFT and SL reached their maximal strain in the first half of the stance phase in 2 ponies and in the second half of the stance phase in the other 3 ponies. The ICL was strained maximally in the second half of the stance phase in all ponies. Averaged over all 5 ponies, the maximal strains in the SDFT, DDFT, ICL and SL with normal flat shoes were 2.4, 1.3, 5.4 and 3.7%, respectively. If an egg-bar was applied the mean peak strain in the DDFT was 0.13% lower and strain in the SL was 0.22% higher. With a heel-wedge, strain decreased in the DDFT and ICL (0.19% and 0.4%, respectively) and increased by 0.24% in the SL. A toe-wedge increased strain in the ICL by 0.8%. All changes mentioned were statistically significant (P < 0.1). The changes in tendon strain as a result of different types of shoeing correlated with changes in calculated torque's of the ground reaction force acting on the coffin joint.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:29 PM

Equine Vet J Suppl. 1998 Sep;(26):86-95. Related Articles, Links
Variation in surface strain on the equine hoof wall at the midstep with shoeing, gait, substrate, direction of travel, and hoof shape.

Thomason JJ.

Department of Biomedical Sciences, University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada.

Objectives were to examine the deformation of the healthy equine front hoof during locomotion, by recording strains on its outer surface, and to test whether its mechanical behaviour is significantly altered under different locomotory conditions and variation in hoof shape. Strains were recorded in vivo from 5 rosette gauges around the circumference of the right forehooves of 12 horses. The magnitudes and orientations of principal strains at the midstep were compared statistically for different conditions of shoeing (shod vs. unshod), gait (walk vs. trot), substrate (treadmill vs. ground), and direction of travel (straight, right turn, left turn). Principal strains were regressed on 4 variables describing hoof shape-toe length, toe angle, and medial and lateral wall angle--to describe their contribution to variations in strain and hoof deformation. Shoeing did not essentially change the magnitudes of the larger, compressive principal strain, but caused some strain reorientation. Shoes decreased the variation in strains indicating that they tend to stabilise the deformation of the hoof. Strain magnitudes were significantly greater at trot than walk, but there was little change in orientation indicating that the general pattern of deformation of the hoof is constant between these 2 gaits. Strain patterns showed small but significant differences between locomotion on the treadmill and on ground, with the differences being more apparent at the toe than at the sides of the hoof. When turning, the quarter on the inside of the turn experienced 40% more strain than during straightline motion, while strain was similarly reduced on the opposite quarter. Strain magnitudes increase with toe length and toe angle, but were inversely proportional to medial and lateral angles. The change with toe length correlated with the range of body size of the animals in the sample. The change with toe angle was contrary to that found in in vitro tests. The change with medial and lateral angles indicated that hooves with more upright quarters are stiffer and possibly provide less impact absorption.

Tom Stovall, CJF

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
I'm looking through studies on PubMed if anyone cares to join me, only abstracts available of course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Took a break to carry this abstract back as it caught my eye. Does it look like it relates to the rise the heels, lower the heels debate? Can anyone explain what it means. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Zentralbl Veterinarmed A. 2000 Mar;47(2):73-82. Related Articles, Links

The effect of flat horseshoes, raised heels and lowered heels on the biomechanics of the equine hoof assessed by finite element analysis (FEA).

Hinterhofer C, Stanek C, Haider H.

Clinic of Orthopaedics in Ungulates, University of Veterinary Medicine Vienna, Austria. Christine.Hinterhofer@vu-wien.ac.at

The biomechanical effects of lowering and raising the heels were studied using a finite element (FE) computer model of the equine hoof capsule consisting of 18,635 finite elements. A static load of 3000 N was distributed to nodes of the inner hoof wall (80%) according to the suspension of the coffin bone, 20% loaded sole and frog. When loaded the FE hoof capsules showed the following deformations: the proximal dorsal wall moves back, the quarters flare to the side and sole and frog perform a downward movement. Stresses are high in the material surrounding the quarter nails, in the heels and in the proximal dorsal wall. Three types of horseshoes were simulated, a regular shoe with flat branches, a shoe with 5 degrees raised heels and a shoe with 5 degrees lowered heels. Raising the heels resulted in significantly (P < 0.05) low stress and displacement values. The lowered heels model calculated highest stress and displacement values and the results of the FE model with the regular horseshoe were found in between <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From the abstract, one can't determine the plane of "normal" [n] and its relationship to the phalanges, so to be honest, I don't think it
means much, one way or the other. It appears to use computer simulation to measure the effects
of stress on loading on various components of the hoof when shod at [n], then [n+5º], than [n-5º].

The observation that the "the quarters flare to the sides..." appears to support a portion of Bowker's theory of hemodynamic flow - but IIRC, the role of moving fluids within elastic containment in the dispersal of shock within the foot was mentioned (alluded to?) in the original (1962) edition of Adams' "Lameness in Horses."

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:35 PM

Here's a newer study.

Am J Vet Res. 2001 Jan;62(1):23-8
Evaluation of an in-shoe pressure measurement system in horses.
Judy CE, Galuppo LD, Snyder JR, Willits NH.

Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, School of Veterinary Medicine, College of Letters and Sciences, University of California, Davis 95616-8747, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To develop an objective, accurate method for quantifying forelimb ground reaction forces in horses by adapting a human in-shoe pressure measurement system and determine the reliability of the system for shod and unshod horses. ANIMALS: 6 adult Thoroughbreds. PROCEDURE: Horses were instrumented with a human in-shoe pressure measurement system and evaluated at a trot (3 m/s) on a motorized treadmill. Maximum force, stance time, and peak contact area were evaluated for shod and unshod horses. Three trials were performed for shod and unshod horses, and differences in the measured values were examined with a mixed model ANOVA for repeated measures. Sensor accuracy was evaluated by correlating measured variables to clinically observed lameness and by a variance component analysis. RESULTS: 4 of 6 horses were determined to be lame in a forelimb on the basis of clinical examination and measured values from the system. No significant differences were observed between shod and unshod horses for maximum force and stance time. A significant decrease in peak contact area was observed for shod and unshod horses at each successive trial. Maximum force measurements provided the highest correlation for detecting lameness (r = 0.91, shod horses; r = 1.0, unshod horses). A variance component analysis revealed that 3 trials provided a variance of 35.35 kg for maximum force (+/- 5.78% accuracy), 0.007 seconds for stance time (+/- 2.5% accuracy), and 8.58 cm2 for peak contact area (+/- 11.95% accuracy). CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The in-shoe pressure measurement system provides an accurate, objective, and effective method to evaluate lameness in horses.

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:39 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Here's a newer study.

Am J Vet Res. 2001 Jan;62(1):23-8
Evaluation of an in-shoe pressure measurement system in horses.
Judy CE, Galuppo LD, Snyder JR, Willits NH.

Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, School of Veterinary Medicine, College of Letters and Sciences, University of California, Davis 95616-8747, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To develop an objective, accurate method for quantifying forelimb ground reaction forces in horses by adapting a human in-shoe pressure measurement system and determine the reliability of the system for shod and unshod horses. ANIMALS: 6 adult Thoroughbreds. PROCEDURE: Horses were instrumented with a human in-shoe pressure measurement system and evaluated at a trot (3 m/s) on a motorized treadmill. Maximum force, stance time, and peak contact area were evaluated for shod and unshod horses. Three trials were performed for shod and unshod horses, and differences in the measured values were examined with a mixed model ANOVA for repeated measures. Sensor accuracy was evaluated by correlating measured variables to clinically observed lameness and by a variance component analysis. RESULTS: 4 of 6 horses were determined to be lame in a forelimb on the basis of clinical examination and measured values from the system. No significant differences were observed between shod and unshod horses for maximum force and stance time. A significant decrease in peak contact area was observed for shod and unshod horses at each successive trial. Maximum force measurements provided the highest correlation for detecting lameness (r = 0.91, shod horses; r = 1.0, unshod horses). A variance component analysis revealed that 3 trials provided a variance of 35.35 kg for maximum force (+/- 5.78% accuracy), 0.007 seconds for stance time (+/- 2.5% accuracy), and 8.58 cm2 for peak contact area (+/- 11.95% accuracy). CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The in-shoe pressure measurement system provides an accurate, objective, and effective method to evaluate lameness in horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what this document says is:

They developed a "widget" to determine lameness in horses and wanted to see if the widget worked equally well in detecting lameness on shod and unshod horses...and they found it did for both shod and unshod...

in other words I don't think this paper is evaluating shod vs. barefoot.

OK-now I am actually BEGGING Tom to jump in here...LOL! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Bea you are killing me!

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:39 PM

What does this mean?

Am J Vet Res. 2001 Jun;62(6):895-900. Related Articles, Links
Effects of ground surface deformability, trimming, and shoeing on quasistatic hoof loading patterns in horses.

Hood DM, Taylor D, Wagner IP.

Department of Veterinary Physiology and Pharmacology, College of Veterinary Medicine, Texas A&M University, College Station 77843-4466, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether solar load distribution pattern on a solid nondeformable ground surface is the product of contact erosion and is the mirror image of load distribution on a deformable surface in horses. ANIMALS: 30 clinically normal horses. PROCEDURES: Solar load distribution was compared among 25 clinically normal horses during quasistatic loading on a solid nondeformable surface and on a highly deformable surface. Changes in solar load distribution patterns were evaluated in 5 previously pasture-maintained horses housed on a flat nondeformable surface. Changes in solar load distribution created by traditional trimming and shoeing were recorded. RESULTS: Unshod untrimmed horses had a 4-point (12/25, 48%) or a 3-point (13/25, 52%) wall load distribution pattern on a flat solid surface. Load distribution on a deformable ground surface was principally solar and located transversely across the central region of the foot. Ground surface contact areas on solid (24.2 +/- 8.62 cm2) and deformable (69.4 +/- 22.55 cm2) surfaces were significantly different. Maintaining unshod horses on a flat nondeformable surface resulted in a loss of the 3- and 4-point loading pattern and an increase in ground surface contact area (17.9 +/- 2.77 to 39.9 +/- 12.77 cm2). Trimming increased ground surface contact area (24.2 +/- 8.60 to 45.7 +/- 14.89 cm2). CONCLUSION AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: In horses, the solar surface is the primary weight-loading surface, and deformability of ground surface may have a role in foot expansion during loading. Increased surface area induced by loading on deformable surfaces, trimming, and shoeing protects the foot.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:43 PM

Acta Anat (Basel). 1993;146(2-3):109-13. Related Articles, Links
Comparison of the damping effect of different shoeing by the measurement of hoof acceleration.

Benoit P, Barrey E, Regnault JC, Brochet JL.

ENVA-Laboratoire de physiologie sportive, Maisons-Alfort, France.

The purpose of this study was to compare the damping effect of 16 types of shoeing by measuring hoof acceleration parameters on two trotting horses. At impact, maximal deceleration had extreme values such as 188 m/s2 (+/- 55) for the most damping combination (p < 0.01) and 746 m/s2 (+/- 14) for the steel shoe (mean = 551 m/s2 +/- 125). After the shock, the hoof was exposed to a mean vibrating acceleration at 418 Hz (+/- 84) which was progressively damped in 37.3 ms (+/- 10.5). According to these results, the damping ability of different farriery products significantly reduces (p < 0.05) shocks and vibrations at hoof impact in the athletic horse caused by runs on asphalt or similar surfaces. In practice, the use of the most efficient shoeing should help to reduce the incidence of the over-used joint diseases in the athletic horse caused by runs on hard surfaces.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:49 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Bea you are killing me! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sorry, I sortof can't seem to make myself stop now. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif And if I did I'd lose track of where I am in PubMed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
The widget didn't discover this?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
No significant differences were observed between shod and unshod horses for maximum force and stance time. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 01:54 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
What does this mean?

Am J Vet Res. 2001 Jun;62(6):895-900. Related Articles, Links
Effects of ground surface deformability, trimming, and shoeing on quasistatic hoof loading patterns in horses.

Hood DM, Taylor D, Wagner IP.

Department of Veterinary Physiology and Pharmacology, College of Veterinary Medicine, Texas A&M University, College Station 77843-4466, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether solar load distribution pattern on a solid nondeformable ground surface is the product of contact erosion and is the mirror image of load distribution on a deformable surface in horses. ANIMALS: 30 clinically normal horses. PROCEDURES: Solar load distribution was compared among 25 clinically normal horses during quasistatic loading on a solid nondeformable surface and on a highly deformable surface. Changes in solar load distribution patterns were evaluated in 5 previously pasture-maintained horses housed on a flat nondeformable surface. Changes in solar load distribution created by traditional trimming and shoeing were recorded. RESULTS: Unshod untrimmed horses had a 4-point (12/25, 48%) or a 3-point (13/25, 52%) wall load distribution pattern on a flat solid surface. Load distribution on a deformable ground surface was principally solar and located transversely across the central region of the foot. Ground surface contact areas on solid (24.2 +/- 8.62 cm2) and deformable (69.4 +/- 22.55 cm2) surfaces were significantly different. Maintaining unshod horses on a flat nondeformable surface resulted in a loss of the 3- and 4-point loading pattern and an increase in ground surface contact area (17.9 +/- 2.77 to 39.9 +/- 12.77 cm2). Trimming increased ground surface contact area (24.2 +/- 8.60 to 45.7 +/- 14.89 cm2). CONCLUSION AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: In horses, the solar surface is the primary weight-loading surface, and deformability of ground surface may have a role in foot expansion during loading. Increased surface area induced by loading on deformable surfaces, trimming, and shoeing protects the foot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bea...isn't your mother calling you for dinner? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

OK....this one (please TOM COME BACK)...says...

they took formerly pastured barefoot horses and studied the load distribution (how the foot hits the ground...ala 4 point contact, 3 point contact, does the sole share the load, etc) of different surfaces (hard and non giving surface vs. giving surface) on shod, trimmed and untrimmed horses.

The determined there is a difference in how the foot loads on hard vs. soft ground...

Horses that were barefoot and untrimmed landed in 4-point or 3-point contact on hard surfaces (think Gene O)...on soft surfaces the sole shares the load-particularly across the center part of the sole...in other words on soft ground you don't see a 4-point landing anymore...but the whole foot sinks down and shares the load.

I think the conclusion is the softer the ground, the more the load is shared by the whole foot (the sole)...so increasing the surface area of the foot by trimming or shoeing methods better protects the foot so more of the foot can share the load...???

Tom Stovall, CJF

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Here's a newer study.

Am J Vet Res. 2001 Jan;62(1):23-8
Evaluation of an in-shoe pressure measurement system in horses.
Judy CE, Galuppo LD, Snyder JR, Willits NH.

Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital, School of Veterinary Medicine, College of Letters and Sciences, University of California, Davis 95616-8747, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To develop an objective, accurate method for quantifying forelimb ground reaction forces in horses by adapting a human in-shoe pressure measurement system and determine the reliability of the system for shod and unshod horses. ANIMALS: 6 adult Thoroughbreds. PROCEDURE: Horses were instrumented with a human in-shoe pressure measurement system and evaluated at a trot (3 m/s) on a motorized treadmill. Maximum force, stance time, and peak contact area were evaluated for shod and unshod horses. Three trials were performed for shod and unshod horses, and differences in the measured values were examined with a mixed model ANOVA for repeated measures. Sensor accuracy was evaluated by correlating measured variables to clinically observed lameness and by a variance component analysis. RESULTS: 4 of 6 horses were determined to be lame in a forelimb on the basis of clinical examination and measured values from the system. No significant differences were observed between shod and unshod horses for maximum force and stance time. A significant decrease in peak contact area was observed for shod and unshod horses at each successive trial. Maximum force measurements provided the highest correlation for detecting lameness (r = 0.91, shod horses; r = 1.0, unshod horses). A variance component analysis revealed that 3 trials provided a variance of 35.35 kg for maximum force (+/- 5.78% accuracy), 0.007 seconds for stance time (+/- 2.5% accuracy), and 8.58 cm2 for peak contact area (+/- 11.95% accuracy). CONCLUSIONS AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: The in-shoe pressure measurement system provides an accurate, objective, and effective method to evaluate lameness in horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what this document says is:

They developed a "widget" to determine lameness in horses and wanted to see if the widget worked equally well in detecting lameness on shod and unshod horses...and they found it did for both shod and unshod...

in other words I don't think this paper is evaluating shod vs. barefoot.

OK-now I am actually BEGGING Tom to jump in here...LOL! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right on all counts! It's a "widget" that measures several aspects of loading. After establishing a norm, they used deviations from the norm to determine lameness, then checked the widget's findings with clinical evaluation to determine the accuracy of the widget. Barefoot of shod, the widget accurately evaluated lameness.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:23 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:You're right on all counts! It's a "widget" that measures several aspects of loading. After establishing a norm, they used deviations from the norm to determine lameness, then checked the widget's findings with clinical evaluation to determine the accuracy of the widget. Barefoot of shod, the widget accurately evaluated lameness. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Okay, well at least no one can accuse me of favoritism, given this proves I have no idea what I'm reading. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Tom Stovall, CJF

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
What does this mean?

Am J Vet Res. 2001 Jun;62(6):895-900. Related Articles, Links
Effects of ground surface deformability, trimming, and shoeing on quasistatic hoof loading patterns in horses.

Hood DM, Taylor D, Wagner IP.

Department of Veterinary Physiology and Pharmacology, College of Veterinary Medicine, Texas A&M University, College Station 77843-4466, USA.

OBJECTIVE: To determine whether solar load distribution pattern on a solid nondeformable ground surface is the product of contact erosion and is the mirror image of load distribution on a deformable surface in horses. ANIMALS: 30 clinically normal horses. PROCEDURES: Solar load distribution was compared among 25 clinically normal horses during quasistatic loading on a solid nondeformable surface and on a highly deformable surface. Changes in solar load distribution patterns were evaluated in 5 previously pasture-maintained horses housed on a flat nondeformable surface. Changes in solar load distribution created by traditional trimming and shoeing were recorded. RESULTS: Unshod untrimmed horses had a 4-point (12/25, 48%) or a 3-point (13/25, 52%) wall load distribution pattern on a flat solid surface. Load distribution on a deformable ground surface was principally solar and located transversely across the central region of the foot. Ground surface contact areas on solid (24.2 +/- 8.62 cm2) and deformable (69.4 +/- 22.55 cm2) surfaces were significantly different. Maintaining unshod horses on a flat nondeformable surface resulted in a loss of the 3- and 4-point loading pattern and an increase in ground surface contact area (17.9 +/- 2.77 to 39.9 +/- 12.77 cm2). Trimming increased ground surface contact area (24.2 +/- 8.60 to 45.7 +/- 14.89 cm2). CONCLUSION AND CLINICAL RELEVANCE: In horses, the solar surface is the primary weight-loading surface, and deformability of ground surface may have a role in foot expansion during loading. Increased surface area induced by loading on deformable surfaces, trimming, and shoeing protects the foot. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bea...isn't your mother calling you for dinner? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

OK....this one (please TOM COME BACK)...says...

they took formerly pastured barefoot horses and studied the load distribution (how the foot hits the ground...ala 4 point contact, 3 point contact, does the sole share the load, etc) of different surfaces (hard and non giving surface vs. giving surface) on shod, trimmed and untrimmed horses.

The determined there is a difference in how the foot loads on hard vs. soft ground...

Horses that were barefoot and untrimmed landed in 4-point or 3-point contact on hard surfaces (think Gene O)...on soft surfaces the sole shares the load-particularly across the center part of the sole...in other words on soft ground you don't see a 4-point landing anymore...but the whole foot sinks down and shares the load.

I think the conclusion is the softer the ground, the more the load is shared by the whole foot (the sole)...so increasing the surface area of the foot by trimming or shoeing methods better protects the foot so more of the foot can share the load...??? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This one suggests that increased solar area is a Good Thing because a greater solar area enables the horse to load the foot in a more balanced manner.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:32 PM

I think just this one more, and I swear to stop. Could this one be both a vote for Tom Stovall's wedges and for the barefoot folk?

Equine Vet J. 1999 Jan;31(1):25-30. Related Articles, Links
The effect of orthopaedic shoeing on the force exerted by the deep digital flexor tendon on the navicular bone in horses.

Willemen MA, Savelberg HH, Barneveld A.

Equine Biomechanics Research Group, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.

This study quantifies both the intended effect of orthopaedic shoeing to decrease the load on the navicular bone and the eventual undesired effects on gait performance. The compressive force exerted by the deep digital flexor tendon on the navicular bone and on the quality of the trot and redistribution of forces over the flexor tendons and the suspensory ligament were studied as a function of orthopaedic shoeing in 12 sound Dutch Warmblood horses. A modified CODA-3 gait analysis system and a force plate were used to quantify objectively the load on the lower limb. The quality of the trot was assessed using the same gait analysis system while the horses were trotting on the treadmill. The effects of shoes with heel wedges and egg-bar shoes were compared to flat shoes and unshod feet. When heel wedges were applied, the maximal force on the navicular bone was reduced by 24% (P<0.05) in comparison with flat shoes. Egg-bar shoes did not reduce the force on the navicular bone, but in unshod feet this force appeared to be 14% lower (P<0.05) compared to flat shoes. Egg-bar shoes cause the horse's trot to be slightly less animated (P<0.05), compared to flat shoes and shoes with heel wedges. It is concluded that shoes with heel wedges reduce the force on the navicular bone as a result of a decreased moment of force at the distal interphalangeal joint in combination with a decreased angle between the deep digital flexor tendon distally and proximally of the navicular bone. Therefore it can be expected that in horses suffering from navicular disease, heel wedges will have the expected beneficial effect on the pressure on the navicular bone, while the effect of egg-bar shoes remains doubtful.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:38 PM

Oops. I lied.

Equine Vet J Suppl. 1999 Jul;30:245-8. Related Articles, Links
In vitro transmission and attenuation of impact vibrations in the distal forelimb.

Willemen MA, Jacobs MW, Schamhardt HC.

Equine Biomechanics Research Group, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.

An in vitro model was developed and validated in vivo to quantify the attenuation of impact vibrations, transmitted through the lower equine forelimb and to assess the effects of horseshoeing on this attenuation. The transsected forelimbs of 13 horses were equipped with custom-made hollow bone screws in the 4 distal bones, on each of which a tri-axial accelerometer could be mounted. The limbs were then preloaded while the impact was simulated by dropping a weight on the steel plate on which the hoof was resting. At the hoof wall, the distal, middle and proximal phalanx and at the metacarpal bone, the shock waves resulting from this impact were quantified. To assess the damping effects of shoeing, measurements were performed with unshod hooves, hooves shod with a normal flat shoe and hooves shod with an equisoft pad and a silicone packing between hoof and pad. The in vitro model was validated by performing in vivo measurements using one horse, and subjecting the limb of this horse to the same in vitro measurements after death. Approximately 67% of the damping of impact vibrations took place at the interface between the hoof wall and the distal phalanx. The attenuation of impact vibrations at the distal and proximal interphalangeal joints was considerably less (both 6%), while at the metacarpophalangeal joint 9% of the amplitude of that at the hoof wall was absorbed, leaving approximately 13% of the initial amplitude at the hoof wall detectable at the metacarpus. Compared to unshod hooves the amplitude at the hoof wall is 15% higher in shod hooves. No differences could be observed between shoe types. At the level of the first phalanx and metacarpus the difference between shod and unshod vanished; it was therefore concluded that, although shoeing might influence the amplitude of impact vibrations at the hoof wall, the effect of shoeing on the amplitude at the level of the metacarpophalangeal joint is minimal.

Tom Stovall, CJF

Sep. 7, 2004, 02:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by trailblazer:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
One can only wonder: If the barefoot crowd
feels a single horse winning a small competition
is somehow significant, how significant is the fact that similar competitions by the tens of thousands have been won by horses wearing shoes? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sigh... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif What about the tens of thousands that have been LOST by horses wearing shoes? I don't see how this proves anything one way or the other...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
As I recall, you posted the URL to the barefoot site extolling the meaningless winnings of some barefoot horse as if they were a G-1 stakes. Did you wish to imply that a barefoot horse's winning something is significant, but the fact that barefoot horses are regularly beaten by shod horses is somehow insignificant?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Correlation does not imply causation! (Why do I get the feeling that I am repeating myself?)
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Should you tire of reciting your mantra, consider that no one forces race, jumper, and pulling trainers to shoe their horses, they do do on the basis of experience. IME, whenever there's a significant amount of money at stake that's dependent on the performance of a horse, the horse's connections are going to do everything they can to insure optimum performance. Does your experience differ, or do you really think the vast majority of speed, jumper, and pulling horse trainers who shoe thier horses are less knowledgeable about horses' feet than the scholars who comprise the barefoot uber alles bunch?

Tom Stovall, CJF

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:04 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
I think just this one more, and I swear to stop. Could this one be both a vote for Tom Stovall's wedges and for the barefoot folk?

Equine Vet J. 1999 Jan;31(1):25-30. Related Articles, Links
The effect of orthopaedic shoeing on the force exerted by the deep digital flexor tendon on the navicular bone in horses.

Willemen MA, Savelberg HH, Barneveld A.

Equine Biomechanics Research Group, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.

This study quantifies both the intended effect of orthopaedic shoeing to decrease the load on the navicular bone and the eventual undesired effects on gait performance. The compressive force exerted by the deep digital flexor tendon on the navicular bone and on the quality of the trot and redistribution of forces over the flexor tendons and the suspensory ligament were studied as a function of orthopaedic shoeing in 12 sound Dutch Warmblood horses. A modified CODA-3 gait analysis system and a force plate were used to quantify objectively the load on the lower limb. The quality of the trot was assessed using the same gait analysis system while the horses were trotting on the treadmill. The effects of shoes with heel wedges and egg-bar shoes were compared to flat shoes and unshod feet. When heel wedges were applied, the maximal force on the navicular bone was reduced by 24% (P<0.05) in comparison with flat shoes. Egg-bar shoes did not reduce the force on the navicular bone, but in unshod feet this force appeared to be 14% lower (P<0.05) compared to flat shoes. Egg-bar shoes cause the horse's trot to be slightly less animated (P<0.05), compared to flat shoes and shoes with heel wedges. It is concluded that shoes with heel wedges reduce the force on the navicular bone as a result of a decreased moment of force at the distal interphalangeal joint in combination with a decreased angle between the deep digital flexor tendon distally and proximally of the navicular bone. Therefore it can be expected that in horses suffering from navicular disease, heel wedges will have the expected beneficial effect on the pressure on the navicular bone, while the effect of egg-bar shoes remains doubtful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to say it supports my position, but without knowing the conformation, angulation and placement of the shoe on the foot, I don't know if it does or not. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Of course, none of the other camps can claim any support either, so I guess it's a wash. Thanks for posting it.

LaraLeigh

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:21 PM

I just have to share this - I have all my horses barefoot - I rehab exracers and most of the horses that come to me have terrible quality of hoof and the shape is so screwed up - people think the horse has bad feet - while they just need to recover. I am not against shoeing though. I grew up where we pulled the shoes through the winter and holidays and gave the feet a chance to have one growing out period and then when show season started back up - we put shoes back on them - not always all the way around - often just in front. I showed A level hunters and I was one of those kids at a show every other weekend. Their feet recovered quickly because they got this spa-treatment every single year. When I get horses that have been shod constantly since they were 2 and never given a break - usually the quality of the hoof is broken down and the horse's hoof shape is not healthy. You pull their shoes and the feet fall apart and the horse is lame - without helping the horse through trimming to find the natural shape again - it is hard to get through the transition period.

But I have YET to get a horse I can't transition. And I show dressage, eventing and jumpers. I laugh as I ride my horses who have toes always short and tidy - while friends say - ah, the farrier did not make it out - my horse is too long to ride - or my horse lost a shoe - I can't ride! OR, seeing friends who constantly forget to leave the farrier a check so their horses go to 10 weeks and they wonder why their horses are lame.... I do nto have to deal with any of that - my horses never change angle - their feet are tidy - their toes always short at the right place.... a shod foot is different at week 1 as it is at week 6 and I find that - that in itself is enough wear on a horse's legs ESPECIALLY if he is a high performance horse.

But I do have a few horses that are out in training at big jumper barns because they need to be placed into homes where the people use trainers of that level and two of them are shod in front. Basically - they are for sale - they need loving homes. I can't rehab their feet for two years - it just is not practical for me to do that for horses that are not my personal horses because the organization that rescued and pays their bills needs us to find homes for them quickly so I can work with and place them so I can work with others.

I found a shoer I love - he is great. He also believes in leaving horses barefoot if they can. He evented on a horse barefoot until last year actually.

I just wanted to say my 2 cents because this is my experience. And I think that seeing is believing. I have had some horses with serious lamenesses, arthritis, clubby feet, navicular - etc. And I have seen them have huge success at barefooting.

I think though - that shoers who are snippy and nasty about barefooting - I just do not understand it - because to hammer nails and a fixed metal shoe to the bottom of a hoof - it just is common sense that there will be reprocussions. I think that admitting that and perhaps using barefooting as a therapy like I mentioned we did in Virginia - 3-4 months out of the year - their feet did not fall apart because they did this every year - the transitioning phase was so minor compared to most people trying to take a horse barefoot who has been shod for years - it really works if you feel you want the protection of the shoe when doing hard core competing.

I will say this though - if you ride in an arena on a horse that is barefoot and the feet will not hold up to the work - then 1. your horse's feet are not transitioned yet and/or 2. you better look at the quality of your footing.

My Thoroughbreds go on rock, sand, gravel, over jumps, across roads, do dressage work -everything barefoot. I do not have problems. If anything, as I said - I enjoy laughing at people who pull their hair out waiting for the farrier or with a horse losing shoes all the time - or a horse with lameness that 'corrective' shoeing is not helping.... there are a lot of lameness issues that are BECAUSE of shoeing and never letting the horse get a break and never letting the heels relax or the blood flow throughout the hoof allt eh way and the hoof shed out the dead foot so the foot is a healthy breathing part of the horse as it should be. It CAN be that in a shoe if you let the hoof recover and have time without shoes on.

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Oops. I lied.

Equine Vet J Suppl. 1999 Jul;30:245-8. Related Articles, Links
In vitro transmission and attenuation of impact vibrations in the distal forelimb.

Willemen MA, Jacobs MW, Schamhardt HC.

Equine Biomechanics Research Group, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.

An in vitro model was developed and validated in vivo to quantify the attenuation of impact vibrations, transmitted through the lower equine forelimb and to assess the effects of horseshoeing on this attenuation. The transsected forelimbs of 13 horses were equipped with custom-made hollow bone screws in the 4 distal bones, on each of which a tri-axial accelerometer could be mounted. The limbs were then preloaded while the impact was simulated by dropping a weight on the steel plate on which the hoof was resting. At the hoof wall, the distal, middle and proximal phalanx and at the metacarpal bone, the shock waves resulting from this impact were quantified. To assess the damping effects of shoeing, measurements were performed with unshod hooves, hooves shod with a normal flat shoe and hooves shod with an equisoft pad and a silicone packing between hoof and pad. The in vitro model was validated by performing in vivo measurements using one horse, and subjecting the limb of this horse to the same in vitro measurements after death. Approximately 67% of the damping of impact vibrations took place at the interface between the hoof wall and the distal phalanx. The attenuation of impact vibrations at the distal and proximal interphalangeal joints was considerably less (both 6%), while at the metacarpophalangeal joint 9% of the amplitude of that at the hoof wall was absorbed, leaving approximately 13% of the initial amplitude at the hoof wall detectable at the metacarpus. Compared to unshod hooves the amplitude at the hoof wall is 15% higher in shod hooves. No differences could be observed between shoe types. At the level of the first phalanx and metacarpus the difference between shod and unshod vanished; it was therefore concluded that, although shoeing might influence the amplitude of impact vibrations at the hoof wall, the effect of shoeing on the amplitude at the level of the metacarpophalangeal joint is minimal. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok this one set up a fancy study to look at vibrations of shod vs. unshod feet AND where the highest vibration occurs within each foot...in others words which joint or bone takes the hit...

the biggest hit gets noticed at the "the interface between the hoof wall and the distal phalanx"...isn't that the spot where the hoof wall and P3 meet...impact is less between that location and the interface of Ps and P3...extra on up the foot/leg...

the shod foot took a higher hit at the hoof wall/P3 location (15% higher than the unshod foot)...and the fancy shoe was not any better than the steel shoe-both showing about 15% greater impact at this location...

BUT my the time your reached the meeting spot of...the first phalanx and metacarpus (hmmmmm guessing like a wild man here and not cheating by looking this up...P1 and the place higher than that?)....the feet, shod or unshod took the same hit...so shoeing does increase vibration at the lower part of the foot (by 15% over the unshod foot)...but this vibration dissipates by the last interface mentioned.

So you would then have to determine IF a 15% increase at the hoof wall/P3 is significant enough to warn you away from shoes and the other benefits OR whether the extra vibration is counteracted by the benefits of shoes.

I think it should also be mentioned again that in each of these studies, there is no description of the trim or how the shoe is applied...for example would a rocker toe on a barefoot horse show a greater deviation between resulting vibration that foot and the shod foot...or would a shoe set back or applied ala Natural Balance shoes, for example, decrease the difference in vibration between the shod and unshod foot.

Tom-ok on this one? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:37 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
I think just this one more, and I swear to stop. Could this one be both a vote for Tom Stovall's wedges and for the barefoot folk?

Equine Vet J. 1999 Jan;31(1):25-30. Related Articles, Links
The effect of orthopaedic shoeing on the force exerted by the deep digital flexor tendon on the navicular bone in horses.

Willemen MA, Savelberg HH, Barneveld A.

Equine Biomechanics Research Group, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.

This study quantifies both the intended effect of orthopaedic shoeing to decrease the load on the navicular bone and the eventual undesired effects on gait performance. The compressive force exerted by the deep digital flexor tendon on the navicular bone and on the quality of the trot and redistribution of forces over the flexor tendons and the suspensory ligament were studied as a function of orthopaedic shoeing in 12 sound Dutch Warmblood horses. A modified CODA-3 gait analysis system and a force plate were used to quantify objectively the load on the lower limb. The quality of the trot was assessed using the same gait analysis system while the horses were trotting on the treadmill. The effects of shoes with heel wedges and egg-bar shoes were compared to flat shoes and unshod feet. When heel wedges were applied, the maximal force on the navicular bone was reduced by 24% (P<0.05) in comparison with flat shoes. Egg-bar shoes did not reduce the force on the navicular bone, but in unshod feet this force appeared to be 14% lower (P<0.05) compared to flat shoes. Egg-bar shoes cause the horse's trot to be slightly less animated (P<0.05), compared to flat shoes and shoes with heel wedges. It is concluded that shoes with heel wedges reduce the force on the navicular bone as a result of a decreased moment of force at the distal interphalangeal joint in combination with a decreased angle between the deep digital flexor tendon distally and proximally of the navicular bone. Therefore it can be expected that in horses suffering from navicular disease, heel wedges will have the expected beneficial effect on the pressure on the navicular bone, while the effect of egg-bar shoes remains doubtful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd like to say it supports my position, but without knowing the conformation, angulation and placement of the shoe on the foot, I don't know if it does or not. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Of course, none of the other camps can claim any support either, so I guess it's a wash. Thanks for posting it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very fair answer--without knowing how the horses were trimmed or how the shoe is applied can't say if the conlusion is "truth."

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:

To my knowledge, there are no rules requiring the use of shoes in any discipline other than racing - anyone can compete with a horse shod, booted, or barefooted as the spirit moves them. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was actually surprised to read the USAE rules the other day and find that judges are allowed to knock down the scores of horses with no shoes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

situpandride

Sep. 7, 2004, 03:40 PM

I'm not so sure I want to agree with the premise that because a shod horse can run faster or jump higher than an unshod horse the translates to shod is better for the horse, maybe in the long term the horse shouldn't be jumping that high or going that fast, say 10-20 years later what kind of shape are their legs and feet in.
I admit i don't compete at high levels, trust me the last thing I'd blame it on is barefoot, I'm a lousy rider and i have untalented horses, as do most of the riding world. Over the years though I've made a decision about keeping mine barefoot, riding and sound, if I need to put shoes on to perform at a certain level then my gut says the horse will pay for that at some point, so i ride my horses so they don't need shoes. they jump, they go on long trail rides over all kinds of terrain, they do everything a shod horse does but not as high or fast maybe, i intend for them to be sound for a long time.
i also can tell the difference riding a shod vs barefoot horse, the barefoot is softer and feels more like the foot slides and spreads, also much less death defying on bad footing.
i had a great farrier for 12 years, he never wanted to shoe my barefoot distance horse, i'd ask him once in a while when i read an article about some new shoeing system and he said is your horse sound-so that answered the question for me.
this attitude does not make me a better horse owner or smarter than anyone else it's just my opinion

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Equine Vet J Suppl. 1999 Jul;30:245-8. Related Articles, Links
In vitro transmission and attenuation of impact vibrations in the distal forelimb.

I think it should also be mentioned again that in each of these studies, there is no description of the trim or how the shoe is applied...for example would a rocker toe on a barefoot horse show a greater deviation between resulting vibration that foot and the shod foot...or would a shoe set back or applied ala Natural Balance shoes, for example, decrease the difference in vibration between the shod and unshod foot.
Tom-ok on this one? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Or, unless I missed something, what the force of the impact is. The equivalent of trotting on concrete? Or sand?
I searched PubMed using the terms barefoot, hoof, unshod, shoes, etc. These were the only references I saw comparing shod to unshod. No guarantee of course I didn't miss something. But I'm sure you're all be glad to hear I don't have any more to post. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm surprised at how little I came up with. Either it is a conspiracy of farriers who love to shoe. Or the scientific community long ago decided the impacts of shoeing weren't significant enough to merit much study.
LMH, I'm interested to hear your summary of the one involving ponies and tendon strain. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

evenstar

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:31 PM

From LMH pages ago! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Also, and many will poo poo it...mine grow MORE foot since I have had them barefoot...I don't know if it is the balance or health of the feet but the more I ride them, the more the darn foot grows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When I saw this I had to skip ahead to remark that that has been my experience as well. My horse's slow growth was the despair of my farrier - she could go 9 weeks in the summer and look like she'd only been done 5 weeks earlier. With the bare feet, she's growing hoof faster right now than she can wear it off (we have a ring with excellent footing and other than that she's mainly on grass).

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
This looks interesting.

Equine Vet J. 1996 Mar;28(2):126-32. Related Articles, Links
Influence of shoeing on ground reaction forces and tendon strains in the forelimbs of ponies.

Riemersma DJ, van den Bogert AJ, Jansen MO, Schamhardt HC.

Department of Veterinary Anatomy, Faculty of Veterinary Medicine, Utrecht University, The Netherlands.

Strains in the superficial digital flexor tendon (SDFT), deep digital flexor tendon (DDFT), accessory ligament of the deep digital flexor muscle (inferior check ligament [ICL]) and the interosseus medius muscle (suspensory ligament [SL]) in the right forelimb of 5 ponies were measured using mercury-in-silastic strain gauges a few hours after implantation. Tendon strains were recorded at the walk with normal flat shoes, egg-bar shoes, a 7 degrees increased hoof angle accomplished by application of a heel-wedge and a 7 degrees decreased hoof angle using a toe-wedge, consecutively. Ground reaction forces were recorded with all 4 shoe types preoperatively and with flat shoes post operatively. The strain patterns of the SDFT, DDFT and SL showed a rapid increase at the beginning of the stance phase, followed by a plateau with a small incline or decline and a rapid decrease at the end of the stance phase. The SDFT had its maximal strain in the first half of the stance phase in all ponies. The DDFT and SL reached their maximal strain in the first half of the stance phase in 2 ponies and in the second half of the stance phase in the other 3 ponies. The ICL was strained maximally in the second half of the stance phase in all ponies. Averaged over all 5 ponies, the maximal strains in the SDFT, DDFT, ICL and SL with normal flat shoes were 2.4, 1.3, 5.4 and 3.7%, respectively. If an egg-bar was applied the mean peak strain in the DDFT was 0.13% lower and strain in the SL was 0.22% higher. With a heel-wedge, strain decreased in the DDFT and ICL (0.19% and 0.4%, respectively) and increased by 0.24% in the SL. A toe-wedge increased strain in the ICL by 0.8%. All changes mentioned were statistically significant (P < 0.1). The changes in tendon strain as a result of different types of shoeing correlated with changes in calculated torque's of the ground reaction force acting on the coffin joint. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Crud I WILL need a beer on this one...I thought I could sneak by and no one would notice...heck Bea I have NO idea if I even know what I am talking about! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif ok....lots of letters and things in this one... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

OK these 5 ponies were studied with all the different shoes-flat, eggbar, heel wedges, toe lifts...in the beginning of stance phase increase of tension on tendons, etc...then either same, less or more strain at end of stance phase (as pony is starting foot lift-off?)

Check ligament had greatest load at end of stance phase....

Eggbar shoes decreased the strain on the DDFT but increased the strain on the suspensory...wedge about the same---decreases pressure on DDFT and increase pressure on suspensory...

toe wedge caused trouble for the inferior check ligament...

So I guess on the surface---we would still have to ask HOW the shoes were applied and what the trims were like as far as balance and alignment...assuming all ok there, this would seem to favor wedging a foot with a problemary DDFT....

however still not sure if this answers the original NS debate...to me this is more dealing with shoeing for a strain to the DDFT for example...and it also begs the questions of when you lift the pressure on the DDFT, what does that do to the navicular bone? And all the rest of the players inside the foot...it certainly doesn't seem to make Mr Suspensory Ligament very happy...

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:34 PM

And I REALLY REALLY want to know why no one else is playing with Bea... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:52 PM

Shoot, I really thought the pony one had a unshod comparison! Sorry I made you go through that. I wonder if I copied the wrong study? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>And I REALLY REALLY want to know why no one else is playing with Bea... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I bored them all away. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Maybe Luca Bein will make an appearance and liven things up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Sep. 7, 2004, 04:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
And I REALLY REALLY want to know why no one else is playing with Bea... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*I* actually had to work today http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif and had trouble enough keeping up with Bea's spastic posting! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Much less trying to comprehend it (in between various project managers dropping by) much LESS trying to respond to any of them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:04 PM

Bea----I have been giving this alot of thought and here is my thought for now...and really would like to hear what others think of this...

I think we can jump out on a limb and say metal shoes increase vibration or concussion in a foot over barefoot...that is out there and not really disputed...so it then becomes the following question...

let's say there are 10 levels of performance...level 1 the lowest and 10 the SUPER performance...let's say a barefoot horse can compete successfully through..oh....how about level 7 just the same as a shod horse...or maybe even better in some instances (again the floaty movement of the u/s comes to mind)....so you know shoeing is going to increase vibration 15%...but the question becomes HOW significant is that 15% to overall LONGTERM soundness...if it means you can get to level 8-10 with shoes but could not without, you them must decide if that 15% extra vibration is worth getting to level 8-10....

Or put another way...let's say the extra 15% decreases a horse's performance life by 3 months...would it be worth it? What if it decreased the life by 1 year? 3 years? 5 years? Not at all? At this point you make a decision based on your goals and desires whether to shoe to get there....

Now you can't JUST look at that because there are all these other factors involved...say you are told to get your horse to level 7 he MUST live out 24 hours a day to develop a foot strong enough to make it to level 7...if you have access, you give up your stall and say SURE! BUT if you can't find a farm withing 100 miles of you offering that service, do you go ahead and shoe your horse OR sell him because he will never have good feet with only 3 hours of turnout....

OK take it further...in order to keep your barefoot horse at level 7 you also must condition on all kinds of terrain so you don't get to a competition on rocks and all you ride on at hime is sand....now what do you do? Never leave the safe confines of your sand arena? Or haul to rocky terrain and spend time conditioning him on that terrain?

NOW let's say you JUST paid entry fees for a show in 30 days...your horse blows an abscess...barefoot it will take about 30 days for him to be TOTALLY sound...but a farrier can come shoe him and he will be good to go in 14 days...but you have that vibration issue again (or whatever)....so do you miss your competition because you are COMMITTED to barefoot OR do you shoe him and go so you don't lose your entry fees.

NOW play this another way....in your area there just are NO good farriers...just not one...so do you let some hack work on your horse, learn how to shoe or learn how to trim maintaining a perfectly happy barefoot horse-BUT you may not be able to compete at Grand Prix jumping level because he needs studs for traction at that level....

OR what IF you just will never make it to Grand Prix anyway?

OK so let's say you have this grand prix horse and you don't mind shoes BUT to make it there you have to move him to a trainer's barn with only one hour of turnout....BUT you feel natural herd living, with 24 hour access to movement is ESSENTIAL...now what!!!

You see it is ALL about choices and goals and desires...every decision, every choice.

There could be 100 studies showing shoes cause contraction of 2%, vibration increases of 15% or heel pain in 30% of shod horses. For one person this is nothing-for another, this change is not worth the perceived "risk" to her horse.

So the way *I* see it, it isn't just a debate about shod vs. barefoot for about 90% of us...because I do believe most horses can compete dressage, hunters whatever at the level most of us compete at barefoot WITH the natural living and conditioning required...it is a matter of lifestyle choice for you and your horse.

Anyway THIS is why I think we don't see many barefoot horses at high levels...it comes down to more than just the shoes or lack thereof.

Watcha think?

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:05 PM

OH also wanted to add without risking deleting my other post...there are those that would also argue any level that requires shoes is just not natural to a horse...therefore not fair to ask of a horse anyway...right or wrong-doesn't matter....I am just saying it is all about perception and personal choices...just like whether you think drinking a beer is a risk to your health or not.

Lookout

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:09 PM

...the laminae. Which is why, after years of shoeing, the laminae are damaged.
This confirms that the shock absorption of concussion is damped mostly by the hoof, and the shoe inhibits this function.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
the biggest hit gets noticed at the "the interface between the hoof wall and the distal phalanx"...isn't that the spot where the hoof wall and P3 meet...impact is less between that location and the interface of Ps and P3...extra on up the foot/leg...

the shod foot took a higher hit at the hoof wall/P3 location (15% higher than the unshod foot)...and the fancy shoe was not any better than the steel shoe-both showing about 15% greater impact at this location...
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:11 PM

My head hurts...

Lookout

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:15 PM

It's not just about a reduced performance level in terms of years, or longterm soundness. If you don't mind the risk of potential founder at any time, which is what damaged laminae do, then it's not a risk factor for you. And it's not just about the feet. The horse is a whole being, what happens to his feet affects his whole body.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
let's say there are 10 levels of performance...level 1 the lowest and 10 the SUPER performance...let's say a barefoot horse can compete successfully through..oh....how about level 7 just the same as a shod horse...or maybe even better in some instances (again the floaty movement of the u/s comes to mind)....so you know shoeing is going to increase vibration 15%...but the question becomes HOW significant is that 15% to overall LONGTERM soundness...if it means you can get to level 8-10 with shoes but could not without, you them must decide if that 15% extra vibration is worth getting to level 8-10....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:19 PM

I can tell you this much: I plan on competing at the 3' A/A level. Maybe even dabble in the A/O level IF I'm lucky/brave/monetarily endowed enough to get there. With Rio that is - 6 years old, never shod, GREAT feet. I now have 7 acres of pasture to ride him in, no ring (never had). I don't have to worry about any abrasive footing wearing his foot faster than it can grow (and at this time of year that is RoadRunner fast). He's out 24/7. My current plan is to NEVER shoe him, to continue to trim him myself, with occasional checkups with someone more experienced than I. I will never miss a show because dangit the farrier never came out. I will be able to see his foot change because perhaps there is something higher up in his body that is out of whack - not something easily seen during the course of a few shoeing cycles and I'll be able to either fix it myself or call upon the trimmer to help. That will hopefully alert me to any issues early on rather than waiting til they are at Defcon 4. We WILL compete at the 3' level barefoot. And, I daresay, will be pretty successful, even if it's not at a national level. Whether or not we get to 3'6" will have nothing to do with shoes or not, but simply my talent (which is questionable), his talent (which currently is not), and my wallet. IF I were bound and determined to be competitive at the 3'6" level AND his feet were not holding up chipping, flaring, flat soles, whatever) AND I thought shoes would help, I'd shoe him for the time I wanted to be that successful. But, for this particular horse with his particular feet I don't see that ever being an issue, so no shoes for you!

Yes, I'm babbling. Forgive me...

Lookout

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:20 PM

There's rules, and then there's rules. This young man had the best competitive record at preliminary eventing in his entire area which qualified him for the team. But the selectors decided that if he was going to be on the team, he would need to shoe his horse, even though his success was achieved barefoot. They didn't need "rules" to deny him entree. This is why it is so disingenuous to make the argument that, if barefoot horses were able, they'd be doing it. It will take years to get past the prejudice of horses "needing" to be shod to perform.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Tom Stovall, CJF:
To my knowledge, there are no rules requiring the use of shoes in any discipline other than racing - anyone can compete with a horse shod, booted, or barefooted as the spirit moves them.
QUOTE]

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:21 PM

OK play the game further...take a shoe-er like Tom...most of his clients have performance horses....let's say even IF Tom thought barefoot was better....how is he going to explain to ALL these clients with EXPENSIVE horses that it might take several months to several years to transition to barefoot....AND they have to change how the horses live---even IF the horse COULD have traction etc to compete at Grand Prix level...how many paying clients would he have at days end?

Especially when you balance the fact that most horses are not dropping over dead from shoes...early onset arthritis? maybe? BUT can anyone PROVE that was from shoes? Of course not AND it can be maintained....so shoes will win there....

NS-heel pain...even IF caused by shoeing (and not saying it is)...and perhaps cured barefoot ... but again what if it takes 2 years to "fix" and the horse is 14yo....Tom can get him sound TODAY with shoes and properly applied wedges...so even IF we argue and could PROVE Tom's method is only good for oh....5 years (horse is now 19yo) but with 2 years of barefoot the horse would be cured for life...well heck he is still 16yo when "cured" and lost 2 years of competing.

My point being...for any problems most people might see shoes are causing, there seems to be a "now" cure that doesn't have HUGE ramifications to a horse's health by the standards of most horse owners.

So it is just a matter of coming at it from different places...and if you enter the race industry were money REALLY matters and a horse is finished by 5yo, there just isn't 2 years to spare.

Now I know this is a quick aregument...but again I think it is choices like these that prohibit seeing more barefoot performance horses out there...especially when you are talking about rehabing a horse that may have had bad hoof care in his life.

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:26 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
OK play the game further...take a shoe-er like Tom...most of his clients have performance horses....let's say even IF Tom thought barefoot was better....how is he going to explain to ALL these clients with EXPENSIVE horses that it might take several months to several years to transition to barefoot....AND they have to change how the horses live---even IF the horse COULD have traction etc to compete at Grand Prix level...how many paying clients would he have at days end?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly a point you and I tried to make however many pages ago it was. The numbers would be VERY low.

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
It's not just about a reduced performance level in terms of years, or longterm soundness. If you don't mind the risk of potential founder at any time, which is what damaged laminae do, then it's not a risk factor for you. And it's not just about the feet. The horse is a whole being, what happens to his feet affects his whole body.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
let's say there are 10 levels of performance...level 1 the lowest and 10 the SUPER performance...let's say a barefoot horse can compete successfully through..oh....how about level 7 just the same as a shod horse...or maybe even better in some instances (again the floaty movement of the u/s comes to mind)....so you know shoeing is going to increase vibration 15%...but the question becomes HOW significant is that 15% to overall LONGTERM soundness...if it means you can get to level 8-10 with shoes but could not without, you them must decide if that 15% extra vibration is worth getting to level 8-10....
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But Lookout it is simply NOT that black and white to most people...again even IF it were true that shoeing a horse put him at the high risk for founder...seeing that most shod horses are NOT actively foundering out there...I would say very few are...so even IF it were a risk, it is so low from most people's perception that it is not worth considering.

The same argument could be made for something like vaccines...vaccinated your horse ensures him NOT getting a disease by let's say 98% (same as increasing performance for a shod horse today) BUT he is at 2% risk of reacting to the vaccine (let's say 2% chance of foundering from shoes)....MOST people will vaccinate the horse and risk the 2% so if that were a valid concern on shoes, most will not look at founder as a realistic threat.

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:

Now I know this is a quick aregument...but again I think it is choices like these that prohibit seeing more barefoot performance horses out there...especially when you are talking about rehabing a horse that may have had bad hoof care in his life. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not an "argument" here. JB was poorly shod for he entire life, only I didn't know it until the last 4 or so. However, at that point he was stalled 20-ish hours a day, and was still competing in the Adult Hunters. Not successfully mind you LOL but that had absolutely nothing to do with the condition of his feet - it was his brain :rolleyes At the point where I woke up and thought "oh crap, his feet are HORRIBLE!!!" I had a choice - take his shoes off and probably not show again for at least a year AND have it probably "fail" because of his living arrangements, or wait for better times.

As "luck" would have it, he was retired well before I could make his environment change. I am POSITIVE that his poor trimming/shoeing - LTLH, wedges, etc - all contributed to his arthritis and sore shoulders, etc, which all led to his arthritis. No, I can't prove it, but after seeing the simple changes in him SINCE pulling his shoes I can make some edumucated guesses as to what his life COULD have been like. I had his shoes pulled in November when he went on 24x7 turnout. The effects nowadays are amazing, and it makes me very very sad to think of what he could have been had his feet been in working order. But the circumstances at the time I realized what was going on were not right and would have set us up for certain failure in more ways than one.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JB:*I* actually had to work today http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif and had trouble enough keeping up with Bea's spastic posting! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Much less trying to comprehend it (in between various project managers dropping by) much LESS trying to respond to any of them! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Just wait till you see what I've tucked away for a rainy day. For example as a teaser, did you know there's an actual scientific study on the effects of draw reins and whether, even if used properly, they effect collection. <evil grin>

LMH, I think I couldn't agree with you more completely. And add to your list financial considerations as well. Purchase price of horse, training, potential future value. IME, and I say this gently based on my experience of living with a horse trainer. There's an added pressure or stress to decisions based around horses purchased for say $35,000 as yearlings then those purchased for $350. I can only imagine what it's like with those costing $1 million. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif I remember standing with an owner several years ago at a show waiting for his mare to go into the ring. Trainer comes up, says 'mare shows no sign of any lameness but we realized she was hot and she turns out to have a temp of 103, what do you want to do'. Owner hestitates for a moment and says 'give her a shot of banamine and show her'. Mare does her five minutes pattern ten minutes later and wins $75,000. Mare is immediately retired to the broodmare band, where she spends her days in a beautiful grassy large pasture barefoot.

With considerations such as these, as you said, trying to make decisions based on some added impact can be, shall we say, difficult. How many people don't try to persuade their child enrolled in an Ivy League College who decides to drop out in junior year to change his/her mind. Even say if perhaps that child really can't handle the present situation.

The bottom line for me, is that this is the understandable tension between horse owners I mentioned many pages back. And I truly believe all the different types of horse owners are essential. Particularly gathered together as they are on COTH. They keep each other honest and constantly questioning priorities.

situpandride

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:54 PM

JB-my horse competed for years barefoot in a variety of disciplines. we did very few recognized shows because frankly she was a short strided big headed grade horse and i'm fat and middle aged but she was a hard working horse. for a few years we did the 3'3" classes and i evented her at novice and we did a few bad first level tests and we did some 50 milers but mostly 25-30 ctr's, on all kinds of footing, in sand rings, on grass, on gravel. she was ridden 7 days a week for weeks at a time without a break but as hard as all that sounds i didn't push her, i slowly conditioned her, i had a great farrier, i learned how to trim her,she was out in a herd 24/7, she was rarely grained and lived on grass and hay. she was never unsound due to her feet, she worked harder than most of the other horses my friends owned but it wasn't hard work if you know what I mean. I never missed a day riding due to her feet, and if she wasn't up to a show for any reason, i'd eat the entry fee and stay home, we didn't miss many shows.I rode her barefoot into her 30's, she still liked to jump a little fence in her last year of life, she died sound.
your horse will probably do fine barefoot for what you are doing, if not you can always shoe him or bring him down a level and keep him barefoot.

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
For example as a teaser, did you know there's an actual scientific study on the effects of draw reins and whether, even if used properly, they effect collection. <evil grin>

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMG, I see hitting 20 pages of comment in less than 24 hours! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Sep. 7, 2004, 05:57 PM

lol, situpandride, I'm afraid JB won't go back to competing at anything other than perhaps some crossrail classes for some plucky little kid in the future http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif He's 20 now and really does have hock arthritis - been through the gamut of joint supps and IM/IV injections and 2 sets of IA injections. If he was in his current position and was only 15, that might be a different story, but alas... JB will never ever have shoes on again. Old Macs yes, for the occasional trail ride down a rocky path, but that's it.

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:05 PM

OK Bea add this to the little fun and games of pressure in the show world...

There is a show facility near me called Wills Park...it is KNOWN for bad footing...the vets used to joke that the Monday after a WP show was Wills Parkinson day because they had to treat all the foot sore horses from showing at the facility...now remember we have ALREADY proven the number of barefoot horses is few and FAR between...so these are SHOD horses coming up footsore...

I have young horses and all troubles aside it is a good place to put miles on baby horses...but I now have to take my BAREFOOT horses there to show....

So if *my* horse comes up lame...well the BAREFOOT horse got sore...if *my* horse gets an abscess...well the BAREFOOT horse abscessed...if my horse performs he better be better because he is BAREFOOT and goodness only knows if he doesn't win it is because he is BAREFOOT...

and by the way none of mine ever came up sore after a WP show.

or let's say there is a thread and someone is having farrier woes...you gently suggest the horse may be able to go barefoot http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif OMG another closet Strasser-ite on the loose...immediately you are lumped in with this group of people "known" to lame horses and keep them that way for YEARS....granted there may very well be horses performing with a Strasser trim...and good for them...but the negatives affiliated with that far group outweigh the good side.

So now you are a looney with no sense.

Just something else I was thinking of....

I have never said one is committing a mortal sin by shoeing her horse...but I do believe there are many many bad shoe jobs out there...as I say, we all make choices and decisions...but goodness gracious as a horse owner you should at LEAST know what a balanced foot looks like so you know if your farrier is deserving of the money you pay him...that is my point and has always been my only point.

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:10 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
and by the way none of mine ever came up sore after a WP show.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*gasp* the HP took her barefoot hunter horse to a WP show? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:12 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JB:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
and by the way none of mine ever came up sore after a WP show.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*gasp* the HP took her _barefoot_ hunter horse to a WP show? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes and I am PROUD to say one was crossrail hunter champeen! With the competitors total (outside of me) accumulative age almost approaching 20 years old (and there were like 3 others)! LOL!!!!

LMH

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:25 PM

And here is my last point to ponder for the evening...

why you DON'T see more barefoot performance horses out there...

Let's say HO (horseowner) has a horse shod long toe/low heel...she doesn't know what to do...but her horse ain't right...so she learns from this BB to try barefoot...she has NO idea what a balanced foot looks like.

SO she tells her farrier to pull the shoes and trim him...now remember this is the SAME darm farrier that let horse get LT/LH in the first place....so you think the horse is going to be SOUND barefoot? Hell no!

SO she calls farrier B---well he is no better than A...so she goes to the net to find a barefoot trimmer...who is the most vocal? Strasser and Olivio...so she calls them...now I can only speak from MY experience on this one...she pays for a "special" trim...now all horses are lame from 1-3 months....well darn that barefoot thing REALLY is looking bad now...

so anyone at this point is going to darn well give up....don't you think?

Well that is how it would play out MOST times...BUT if she finds a farrier like...oh slb's husband (who by her own admission has several barefoot clients)....now at least there is a prayer for the horse to go sound barefoot...even Tom has said he has some barefoot clients.

But for the rest...you keep searching or learn yourself...and try that with a family and job...just ain't gonna happen.

Not saying ALL horses can compete barefoot...just some thoughts as to why there aren't more barefoot horses out there...if there are so many farriers messing up shoe jobs, it is hard to think that same group can get a horse sound barefoot.

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:29 PM

Amen.

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by situpandride: she was a short strided big headed grade horse and i'm fat and middle aged <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif situpandride, with your permission I might tuck this away as a potential sig line.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>So if *my* horse comes up lame...well the BAREFOOT horse got sore...if *my* horse gets an abscess...well the BAREFOOT horse abscessed...if my horse performs he better be better because he is BAREFOOT and goodness only knows if he doesn't win it is because he is BAREFOOT... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh dear, LMH, is it really like that? Due to the good influence of you, JB, and others. Yes, even you Lookout, you evil Strasserite you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I've talked to my farrier about leaving my reiner barefoot on front. Yes, a look of surprise momentarily came over his face, but he readily agreed without any discussion. And I would imagine when she goes to shows barefoot on front, people, if they notice, might be a little surprised and interested. But is there really that much antagonism out there? Actually now I think about it, several BNT reining horse trainers are known to pull the front shoes off their horses just before showing. Reining horses as you might know, are renowned for pulling front shoes when stopping big.

I might be naive but I believe people generally simply believe shoeing is better for horses, offers protection. If confronted with an obviously sound barefoot horse, I would only imagine they might only look forward to saving some money. Confronted with a group of horses winning Grand Prix, they might simply believe that dream suddenly became a little more attainable because cheaper.

And I haven't as yet experienced any farriers who refused to leave a sound horse barefoot. If faced with a client whose two year-old was about to enter race training, they might suggest it was time for shoes. But I can't imagine they would throw temper tantrums if the owner said they wanted to try it barefoot. Tom Stovall himself hasn't said anything to lead me to believe he would protest leaving a sound horse barefoot. In fact, he said many of the dressage horses in his practice were barefoot. Therefore he has barefoot clients.

Seems to me there will always be call for theraputic shoeing. And people presently complain about the lack of farriers in general. Would farriers really suffer so much if more of their clients were barefoot?

Bea

Sep. 7, 2004, 06:44 PM

Amen ditto to LMH's last post. And who knows how many shoes are protecting, or masking -- to some extent -- horse's feet from the bad trims lying underneath.

Silly Mommy

Sep. 7, 2004, 07:56 PM

Only one other person besides myself on this thread has posted that they have and do Jumpers at 4'6" and higher - neither of us would consider doing it barefoot.

I would like to hear from a barefooter who competes at this level (certainly not GP, just Jr and AO Jumpers) and what their experience has been on different types of footing, especially grass, and especially in the jumpoffs. If someone can contribute (has to be(en) actively participating on a regular basis at this level), I would appreciate it.

xegeba

Sep. 7, 2004, 09:48 PM

silly , silly mommy... you ain't gonna get no replies http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

donnie

Sep. 8, 2004, 03:31 AM

As a retired farrier I find this discussion fascinating. The true facts of the matter are
that most horses can go barefooted if the right hoofcare procedures are used. Horses standing around all day long in stables need hoof protection of some kind due to the deterioration of hoof laminae due to urine and manure and the fact that they are not getting the necessary hoof stimulation to allow them to transition correctly. Stables and small acreage do not do hooves any good. Shoeing is a necessary evil for some horses although with the advent of hoof boots alternative protection is available. As I don't make a living anymore from shoeing I can honestly say that if people asked me to shoe their horse I would shoe it-plain and simple. If the customer wanted to go barefoot I would trim the horse. Many horses are unnecessarily shod as they could go barefooted and some do need some sort of hoof protection due to excessive work. If you only ride a couple of times a week then why not try and keep your horse barefooted. Over many years I have seen horses of all breeds travelling over all surfaces soundly barefooted. Shoeing is not a necessity but an option if needed

LMH

Sep. 8, 2004, 04:36 AM

Silly Mommy...How about foxhunting barefoot? I know it isn't "high level competition" but certainly you could argue traction would be important?

If someone can gallop across a wet slippery hunt field, including the hunt jumps, would that come close to jumping 4ft on grass?

What about competing at polo barefoot-not jumping but speed, traction, ability to not slide into everyone?

Silly Mommy

Sep. 8, 2004, 05:39 AM

I have no doubt that a 4'6" course can be cleanly done on a barefoot horse with any type of footing.

It's the jumpoff. If you've ever had a horse lose it's hind end spinning at warp speed to a 5' oxer, you'd understand - and no, it wasn't about the horse being unbalanced http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. Why do you think they make so many different types of caulks? Each type is for different situations, and I learned over the years (from mistakes) which ones to use, when.

I'd foxhunt without shoes, no freakin way would I do a jumpoff. Oh, and I have a horse that I successfully did 3'6" jumpers on that was barefoot - on sand at St. Clements. He would have been shod and caulked if he'd gone to Lake Placid (grass).

ser42

Sep. 8, 2004, 05:56 AM

Yes Silly Mommy- I totally agree with you- it's the jump-off!

People who haven't ridden one of those courses on grass probably don't really understand the traction that's needed.

The examples that have been given- intermediate eventing (3'9") and foxhunting just can't compare. That's fantastic these horses can do it barefoot, but I still have yet to see a top jumper go without shoes.

BTW- just to clarify the hunters I was talking about previously for LMH- around here the regular working hunters are 4'- and the majority of AA shows are on grass. I still will use my screw-ins... although if barefoot works for some horses, that's great! But I still don't think for a top level jumper jump-off course it would work...

LMH

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:23 AM

I am correct in assuming that most, if not all horses, doing a GP jump-off on grass would be in caulks and not just plain steel shoes-correct?

slb

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:32 AM

Now that we are taking jumping here's some things to ponder...

Since the hoof was not designed by nature to do continual jumping, would it do more harm to jump the horse barefoot or shod?

Barefoot, the hoof could be under excessive forces that may require the support of a shoe to and keep it from going "splat" during repeated landings...especially at higher jumps.

But, looking at it from the other side...could the shoe do more damage than landing barefoot if the concussion factor, torque on the leg from traction devices, and other numerous factors come into play?

Would shear forces...which would effect the laminar attachment...be more on the shod horse with traction devices than on the barefoot horse? How about the barefoot horse vs the shod w/o traction devices horse?

LMH

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:48 AM

slb beat me to the fun....

Silly Mommy

Sep. 8, 2004, 07:05 AM

Well now slb,

Why don't you do a study on it. You ride though. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for torque and caulks - well now, like any athlete - I'm thinking Pro football here (cripes, even golfers too), there are different types for different footings. I never caulk up for sand.

ser42

Sep. 8, 2004, 07:08 AM

Well, probably have to do some double-blind studies to determine that...

But, I'd say going around a jump-off clean with shoes and screw-ins is better for the horse than potentially slipping, falling, and crashing into a 5' jump on top of its rider...

slb

Sep. 8, 2004, 07:48 AM

From my seat....it is all a matter of trade-offs anyway. There are pros and cons to everything we do with horses. If you want to ride...to say nothing about jumping, then you need to compensate to benefit yourself and your horse, if you compensate, then you are most likely doing something negative to the horse. But, no one should be judged for that....it is like any other sport...there are benefits and negatives, skeptics and cheerleaders for the things we do. The bottom line is, we are talking living, dynamic beings and that is hard to put into a framework devised in a lab and say that all need to fit or all need to adhere to certain things.

While all these studies, or all that we can think of, are interesting, the majority of them are inconclusive and even though they have data, most conclude that more testing needs to be done. Heck, many studies are nothing more than devising and testing widgets to study hoof mechanics with. And, the biggest flaw of all is that generally the only thing said about hoof form or shoeing in these studies is that it is a standard trim/shoe job...whatever that means. So, IMO, we are far from every leaning what we should know about the hoof and what impacts it. All these centuries and we still aren't making much progress.

I say....Let's Ride! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Lookout

Sep. 8, 2004, 08:35 AM

And you don't think *that's* what contributed to his poor performance, but rather his "brain"?
How many horses can't perform because of bad, leading to body problems, are incorrectly attributed to "the brain"?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JB:
Not an "argument" here. JB was poorly shod for he entire life, only I didn't know it until the last 4 or so. and was still competing in the Adult Hunters. Not successfully mind you LOL but that had absolutely nothing to do with the condition of his feet - it was his brain :rolleyes his environment change. I am POSITIVE that his poor trimming/shoeing - LTLH, wedges, etc - all contributed to his arthritis and sore shoulders, etc, which all led to his arthritis. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout

Sep. 8, 2004, 08:38 AM

which group is usae?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
I was actually surprised to read the USAE rules the other day and find that judges are allowed to knock down the scores of horses with no shoes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout

Sep. 8, 2004, 08:42 AM

Those are *shod* "useful" lifespans you're referring to. What if the right trim/lifestyle gave your horse another 15 years?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
... but again what if it takes 2 years to "fix" and the horse is 14yo....Tom can get him sound TODAY with shoes and properly applied wedges...so even IF we argue and could PROVE Tom's method is only good for oh....5 years (horse is now 19yo) but with 2 years of barefoot the horse would be cured for life...well heck he is still 16yo when "cured" and lost 2 years of competing.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sep. 8, 2004, 08:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
And you don't think *that's* what contributed to his poor performance, but rather his "brain"?
How many horses can't perform because of bad, leading to body problems, are incorrectly attributed to "the brain"?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JB:
Not an "argument" here. JB was poorly shod for he entire life, only I didn't know it until the last 4 or so. and was still competing in the Adult Hunters. Not successfully mind you LOL but that had absolutely nothing to do with the condition of his feet - it was his brain :rolleyes his environment change. I am POSITIVE that his poor trimming/shoeing - LTLH, wedges, etc - all contributed to his arthritis and sore shoulders, etc, which all led to his arthritis. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, as a matter of fact I do think it was his brain. I've had him for 15 years. He has ALWAYS been spooky about jumps he had never seen before, even if it was an 18" plank. Even if it was his home field and a jump was moved to a new location. Heaven forbid I take him somewhere else and there sailboat standards http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif But, give us a few classes and he'd be truckin' around like he owned the place.

Silly Mommy

Sep. 8, 2004, 09:57 AM

Having ridden JB (the horse) personally, it's definitely his brain. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Sorry Lookout, that extra 15 years is beyond most horse's natural lifespan - and not talking about breaking down in the legs department.

slb

Sep. 8, 2004, 10:13 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Those are *shod* "useful" lifespans you're referring to. What if the right trim/lifestyle gave your horse another 15 years? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, there is nothing to suggest that this is the case other than the mutterings of Strasser. For example, Peruvian Pasos typically are never shod their entire life and generally are considered retirement material in their teens and often don't live much past 20. On the other hand, there was a locally famous jumper that dif his farewell appearance at well over 20, a competative jumper most of his life and still going strong. He most likely was shod his entire life as the area that he came from is very big on shoeing "just because".

From being around horses for over 40 years, I can say that the increased life expectancy that we are seeing in domestic equines has more to do with improved drugs, diagnostics, and nutrition than it has much to do with shoes or no shoes. When I was a kid, if a horse lived much past mid-teens it was something...much past 20 was rare. Many horses around me were not shod then, nor are they now. But, I have not noticed any difference in longevity simply because a horse is shod or barefoot.

LMH

Sep. 8, 2004, 10:16 AM

I am gonna agree with slb on this one...there are too many horses that are NEVER shod that aren't outliving shod horses by 15 years---broodmares, pasture horses, trail horses...

EventerAJ

Sep. 8, 2004, 10:58 AM

I do not know anyone competing at the intermediate level in eventing who would willingly go barefoot and do without studs.

In general, most horses competing at preliminary need shoes. The wear and tear of conditioning and training at that level is often too much for the average foot. I know there are some iron-hooved animals out there who somehow make it through, safely if it is good ground. But I think studs (and therefore shoes) are an absolute necessity at prelim, unless you don't mind retiring when the footing isn't perfect. Maybe studs are not needed for every event, but when it's slick on top, or deep, or both, a half-inch piece of metal really does make a huge difference in safety.

My horse went barefoot when possible. But when the training got serious, 3'3"+ on our hills, studs are necessary to jump. You can get away barefoot at novice here (better barefoot than shod and studless!), but when the jumps get bigger and the courses more technical, factoring in the possiblity of imperfect footing, shoes with studs are the smart thing to do.

Sep. 8, 2004, 11:16 AM

So, EventerAJ, if I may paraphrase, you are saying that you aren't shoeing the horse for the shoes, you are shoeing him at a certain level purely to be able to put studs in.

Txfarrier11

Sep. 8, 2004, 11:52 AM

JB, well, yeah, I would think so. I've had poor results from trying to screw the studs directly into the hoof. Others results might vary.

Sep. 8, 2004, 11:54 AM

Very funny...

Txfarrier11

Sep. 8, 2004, 01:09 PM

Well, yes, I did think it was funny. A sense of humor is what devides humans from animals. No wait, we're supposed to be BONDING with animals. I gues the jokes on me, huh?

trailblazer

Sep. 8, 2004, 01:17 PM

I got your point, JB! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I was confused as to why some people here http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif were saying that shoes help with traction. I've ridden shod horses on blacktop, and it's scary. If it is the STUDS that are what's important, that should be made clear.

I think we all have to weigh the costs and benefits against our personal standards. People in both camps would like to claim that there are no costs, but reality would suggest otherwise. Is it worth putting shoes on a horse so that he can have studs? That is a personal decision to make.

Sep. 8, 2004, 01:22 PM

Sorry Dutch - couldn't tell if you were truly making a funny or making fun of me, given the previous path this thread has taken http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sep. 8, 2004, 01:25 PM

Yes, trailblazer, that is what I'm trying to get at. Is the ENTIRE point of why some people feel shoes are necessary at, say, a 5' jumper course jumpoff, because of the SHOES, or do they need the caulks and therefore HAVE to put shoes on. I'm guessing the latter.

slb

Sep. 8, 2004, 05:15 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by trailblazer:
I've ridden shod horses on blacktop, and it's scary. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have also ridden barefoot horses on blacktop and was given a false sense of securtiy...it is the only time I have ever had a horse fall while I was riding it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

EventerAJ

Sep. 8, 2004, 05:38 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by JB:
So, EventerAJ, if I may paraphrase, you are saying that you aren't shoeing the horse for the _shoes_, you are shoeing him at a certain level purely to be able to put studs in. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, essentially. Of course there ARE horses that need shoes for shoes' sake, because their feet can't take all that pounding barefooted. But in the case of horses with naturally strong, balanced feet, they need shoes more for the studs than as a simple "must have, just because." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

BTW, Dutch I found that comment amusing. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I just couldn't resist jumping into the fray... 2 pages from now I'll bet I wished I stayed out of this mess! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Ghazzu

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:24 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
[
I was actually surprised to read the USAE rules the other day and find that judges are allowed to knock down the scores of horses with no shoes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In which division(s)?

Bea

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:46 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb: I have also ridden barefoot horses on blacktop and was given a false sense of securtiy...it is the only time I have ever had a horse fall while I was riding it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Try riding a horse with sliding plates on blacktop, I swear only then will you discover the truest definition of scarey. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But who rides horses consistently and without extreme care on blacktop or asphalt? I mean even the most extreme Strasserites wouldn't feel this is a good surface to spend much time on. Would they?

Lookout

Sep. 8, 2004, 06:56 PM

in the UK they leg up their horses for the season (be it hunting, eventing, etc) by roading them. i.e. trotting on paved roads. why do you feel this has anything to do with "extreme Strasserites" and feel the need to drag that in?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bea:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by slb: I have also ridden barefoot horses on blacktop and was given a false sense of securtiy...it is the only time I have ever had a horse fall while I was riding it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Try riding a horse with sliding plates on blacktop, I swear only then will you discover the truest definition of scarey. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But who rides horses consistently and without extreme care on blacktop or asphalt? I mean even the most extreme Strasserites wouldn't feel this is a good surface to spend much time on. Would they? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Silly Mommy

Sep. 8, 2004, 07:14 PM

Of course it's or the STUDS JB!!! Ifn ya ever come nawth, I'll show you my collection of STUDS!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Bea

Sep. 8, 2004, 07:55 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout: why do you feel this has anything to do with "extreme Strasserites" and feel the need to drag that in?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I was following a thought expressed by a Strasser practioner either somewhere on this thread or on the navicular one. I apologize if it offended you, or any other Strasser practitioner, that wasn't my intention.

Tannenwald Trakehner

Sep. 8, 2004, 08:27 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
which group is usae?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Tannenwald Trakehner:
I was actually surprised to read the USAE rules the other day and find that judges are allowed to knock down the scores of horses with no shoes http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I quit paying close attention to the acronyms after it quit being "AHSA" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I guess now it all comes under USEF... http://www.usef.org/content/rules/ruleBook/2004/

xegeba

Sep. 8, 2004, 09:33 PM

Bea? What is a "Strasserite"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif I'm amazed that there are so many ways to skin a cat. Or shoe or not shoe a horse. I know one thing... never knew what a "gravel" was till I took the damn shoes off. And I have never,ever seen a barefoot horse at any A/J show. EVER.Have seen barefoot ponies though.

Pocket Pony

Sep. 8, 2004, 10:41 PM

xegeba, what is a "gravel"?

slb

Sep. 8, 2004, 10:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Bea? What is a "Strasserite"? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oo...oo can I answer?

Strasserites are little nymphs that fly between barns paring horse's feet. If you turn over enough horses' feet, you will eventually find one. They can be distinguished from other farriers/trimmers by the following: http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif
<UL TYPE=SQUARE> A certificate of course completion that cost $10,000
A "Blue Book" that cost $500
A genuine laser-etched Plexiglas "hoof viewer"
A sign that says "NO shoes...EVER"
An incomprehensible knowledge of hoof anatomy
A unique education on the application of shoes and traditional farriery.
They can often be heard chanting before evening meals...."30 degree hairline, 45 degree toe".
They are also known to chant..."Shoes are Evil"
They all aspire to speak German because any problem with comprehending what their guru Strasser is saying is just "a result of the language barrier".
Barefoot Forever....give a BIG Marine HOO-RA! [/list]
Oh...oops...I got carrier away by the moment http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Seriously, "Strasserite" is the fond name bestowed on an elite group of trimmers (approx. 30 in the US) that follow the controversial methods of a German vet named Hiltrud Strasser. She has been teaching her methods in Europe for a number of years and came to N. America about 5 years ago. She offers a part mail order/short hands-on course to her students. The method is not just one of trimming, it is adherence to a particular lifestyle for the horse...one that follows nature as closely as possible. The trim is supposed to emulate the natural wear (being done daily to monthly - depending on horse) of a horse in the wild. The lifestyle changes include: no shoes - ever, 24/7 turnout, no clipping, no blanketing, "natural" nutrition. The trim is considered by many as an "invasive" process as it looks to provide the hoof as much mechanism as possible in as short a time as possible. In doing so, "live" sole, bars and heel buttresses may be cut into as deep as the corium from which they are produced. Abscessing is considered a "good" sign...a sign of healing. By Strasser's own admission, a horse may founder when this trim is applied and adherence to guidelines of natural horsekeeping are not followed...however, some of her students found that they foundered even when they followed protocol to the letter. Ideally the trim should result in what Strasser calls a "harmonic curve"...the rest of the farrier community calls it a broken axis.

Dutch...now you can sing your stormtrooper song. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

LMH

Sep. 9, 2004, 04:50 AM

slb I just CRINGE when I read that....and it should also be mentioned that ANOTHER little group headed my Martha Olivio trims about the same way.

Sadly my farm knows this from personal experience...one mistake that I made-hence the grand desire to know EVERYTHING I can about feet and hoof care...penance for what it did to my horses. Will NEVER make a decision uninformed again.

Dutch-hit it please!

Txfarrier11

Sep. 9, 2004, 06:54 AM

I would love to but the full lyrics of The Strasser Trupenleid (sung to the tune of Der Horst Wesseleid )are unavailable to me.

They may only be viewed by looking at the flyleaf of Der Grosser Blau Buch through the plexiglass whozis.

Pol

Sep. 9, 2004, 07:26 AM

Have you guys finished? I'd like to return to the original subject with a question of my own. I have recently retired my 19 year old Intermediate level event horse. 16.0hh TB gelding, who has worn plain and simple shoes with pads on the fronts for the last 16 years of his life. I pulled his back shoes and removed the pads from his fronts, without incident, 3 months ago. 3 weeks ago, I took off his front shoes. He has been sore to lame ever since. He is on a daily dose of Banamine (bute makes him colic) and he is waiting for the farrier to come put some shoes back onto his front feet. Does this sound like a horse who needs to wear shoes? Should I just let him hobble around and hope his feet toughen up? Is he at risk of founder? His paddock is stone dust, not a rock in sight, he's on 24/7 turn-out. I don't want to get you all back into a shooting match, just asking for a little advice. Thanks.

Sep. 9, 2004, 08:00 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pocket Pony:
xegeba, what is a "gravel"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Gravel" is when an abcess pops out the coronet band.

Pol - impossible to answer your question without seeing the feet, preferably before and after the shoes were pulled. Some common reasons the horse could STILL be sore is that either 1) his toes were so long/heels underrun that he had considerable white line stretching which cannot be "fixed" but has to be trimmed apprpriately to allow the new growth to be correct and unstretched, and 2) The trim was done such that a lot of sole was removed, possibly to force concavity, possibly because the trimmer/farrier didn't realize he was getting into live sole (betting there was a lot of dead sole as IME farriers who put shoes on tend to not pare away dead flaking sole, and the shoes prevent it from flaking off to some extent).

Stretched white line could mean he has quite a bit of bruising there that only time will heal. See this thread (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5206053911&m=596202283) for a situation which sounds similar to yours.

LMH

Sep. 9, 2004, 09:19 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pol:
Have you guys finished? I'd like to return to the original subject with a question of my own. I have recently retired my 19 year old Intermediate level event horse. 16.0hh TB gelding, who has worn plain and simple shoes with pads on the fronts for the last 16 years of his life. I pulled his back shoes and removed the pads from his fronts, without incident, 3 months ago. 3 weeks ago, I took off his front shoes. He has been sore to lame ever since. He is on a daily dose of Banamine (bute makes him colic) and he is waiting for the farrier to come put some shoes back onto his front feet. Does this sound like a horse who needs to wear shoes? Should I just let him hobble around and hope his feet toughen up? Is he at risk of founder? His paddock is stone dust, not a rock in sight, he's on 24/7 turn-out. I don't want to get you all back into a shooting match, just asking for a little advice. Thanks. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is hard to say without seeing what his feet look like...if he has flares, stretched white line, soft sole-any of that can make him sore...so you would want to address the trim, use a little Keratex to toughen those feet and maybe use some boots to help him toughen up.

I would try the above first before I paid to keep a pasture horse in shoes.

Pol

Sep. 9, 2004, 10:19 AM

Thanks you 2...My horse's feet are round and hard, no flare anywhere, heels are not under run, toes are not long. He actually got a minor trim when the front shoes came off so his soles wouldn't be right on the ground. His soles have always been nicely cupped bc he has worn leather pads all these years. I started painting his soles 3 months ago when the pads came off, his feet are hard as rock. I am at a loss.

slb

Sep. 9, 2004, 10:36 AM

I have a friend with a horse like this. He had injured himself and worn a pad for years on that foot...former owners always said that he could never go without. But, they pull shoes in winter and were distressed because they never could with this horse. Now, he is only shod for riding season because they go over some pretty rocky ground....and no more pad.

He had a very slight case of misshapen hoof and WLD. His sole was also cupped and rock hard...petrified my farrier husband put it. He was expecting mush after all those years.

I was puzzled also by the fact that he was ouchy after pulling the shoes with that rock hard sole. But, she pulled them over the winter when the snow was deepest and he was fairly comfortable after a couple of weeks and then his feet changed and the WLD was gone by spring with no intervention. It was bad enough that it didn't present too much on the bottom, but his toe had a hollow sound to it when she rapped on it. Once the foot grew out for about 4 months, all was normalized and healthy.

Sometimes, these horses might be concussion sensative also. Does rapping on his foot with a hammer or similar object create a response...even slight? Does his feet sound hollow? Have you had x-rays to see if the feet are internally correct? Often the external appearance can be good, but the internal not.

Lookout

Sep. 9, 2004, 01:40 PM

There are at least a few out there doing so, and they probably don't know you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EventerAJ:
I do not know anyone competing at the intermediate level in eventing who would willingly go barefoot and do without studs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

witherbee

Sep. 9, 2004, 01:55 PM

my 3 year old ID gelding has had front shoes on since he was 2 due to front lameness issues and crumbly feet. He was turned out 24/7 since birth and was on good pasture - a combination of mostly grass and some dirt with very few rocks. He abcessed a couple of times and had general lameness (x-rays did not show anything). He's been sound with the front shoes as a 2 year old and now as a 3 year old. I am doing some walk/trot with him in a sandy arena and he has his feet consitantly trimmed by a good farrier who keeps his horses in teh same barn as mine (his horses are barefoot). Since working in the sandy arena (20 minutes at a time 3 times a week), his hind feet are showing a lot of wear and have at times been ouchy. We have been in this same routine since June of this year. I'm thinking that I may need to put hind shoes on if I continue to ride in that arena and plan to ask my farrier this week. I just mention this because the hind feet appeared to be balanced and trimmed properly to my unprofessional eye, but we seem to need additional protection in the sandy ring....

LMH

Sep. 9, 2004, 02:07 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
There are at least a few out there doing so, and they probably don't know you.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EventerAJ:
I do not know anyone competing at the intermediate level in eventing who would willingly go barefoot and do without studs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout do you KNOW of someone? It would be great to have a name.

donnie

Sep. 9, 2004, 02:28 PM

Pol--I would keep the shoes off at this stage. Long time use of pads does not do the frog and sole any good. I would try and get ground contact and stimulation to the frog so make sure the heels are not too long. I would also get some of those Old Macs horse boots. A lot of people at the barn are using them . They are a very sturdy hoof boot. I guess as your horse has some kind of lameness using boots should be a benefit as they help stop jarring when riding and allow ground contact when your are not

owagner

Sep. 9, 2004, 05:41 PM

witherbee... I have a 4 yr old that I have the same problem with. She currently has no hind shoes on, but my farrier indicated that we will most likely need to put them on in the next 5 weeks. She only works in the sandy ring (maybe) twice per week and she is wearing them down faster than they can grow. Her nutrition and turnout situation is great, but she just can't be in work and not have shoes...

EventerAJ

Sep. 9, 2004, 06:31 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LMH:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
There are at least a few out there doing so, and they probably don't know you.
Which is why I didn't say "NO ONE competes at int. level without shoes..." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Also, how successful are they? Have they completed CCIs? 

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by EventerAJ:
I do not know anyone competing at the intermediate level in eventing who would willingly go barefoot and do without studs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout do you KNOW of someone? It would be great to have a name. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok wait a minute... I do think I heard a story once of someone who DID make it up to Intermediate with a barefoot horse. The horse did have pretty good feet, and usually coped OK with footing conditions (though was sometimes sore). However, soon after moving up to Intermediate the horse began having serious soft tissue injuries. The vets blamed it on the horse "sliding" a bit as he negotiated the bigger xc fences. True or not, I don't know. But I don't know this person, and can't provide any firsthand knowledge or truth to the story so I didn't mention it in my original posts.

As LMH said, who do you know competing successfully at Intermediate? Do they run 3-days barefoot?

I wonder if an FEI ground jury at a CCI could spin a horse at the initial vet inspection simply because he was barefoot? AFAIK, there is no rule stating your horse MUST be shod. But it is almost a no-brainer; at that level, you have shoes and you have studs. The GJ is allowed to stop any horse it does not feel "fit" for the event, generally applying to soundness and conditioning, but could this theoretically extend to shoeing?

gardenie

Sep. 10, 2004, 05:38 AM

Oh, goodness, I cannot resist anymore.

Question: If you boot your horse who does not have shoes, do you consider that barefoot?

I feel like I'm watching a bunch of Christians of different denominations argue about whose going to heaven http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

LMH

Sep. 10, 2004, 05:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by gardenie:
Oh, goodness, I cannot resist anymore.

Question: If you boot your horse who does not have shoes, do you consider that barefoot?

I feel like I'm watching a bunch of Christians of different denominations argue about whose going to heaven http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well yes he is-he is still unshod...also the "problem" most barefoot zealots have with shoes is driving nails into a foot and prohibiting hoof expansion-neither which boots do (just giving the facts, not saying I buy 'em).

Also many folks only use boots for transition or rocky conditions. It isn't barefooters seek ways to punish the horse-so boots offer a more "natural" solution of hoof protection that shoes.

And, on your sidenote comment-a friend of mine said be careful when discussion shod vs. barefoot because it is like asking someone to change her religion! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif So you hit that one right one! LOL!!

Pol

Sep. 10, 2004, 06:09 AM

Hey, I'm not changing religion here, nor joining any shod/unshod factions! I just don't want to buy shoes for a RETIRED horse who will never go anywhere except his own paddock for the rest of time. He's only 19, for cry eye. Chances are he'll live to be 40. Saving eighty bucks a month could be quite useful to me! But not if it makes him lame!

Tom Stovall, CJF

Sep. 10, 2004, 11:41 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Pol:
Hey, I'm not changing religion here, nor joining any shod/unshod factions! I just don't want to buy shoes for a RETIRED horse who will never go anywhere except his own paddock for the rest of time. He's only 19, for cry eye. Chances are he'll live to be 40. Saving eighty bucks a month could be quite useful to me! But not if it makes him lame! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If he's ging to be a retiree, just pull the shoes and don't worry about it. Horses at liberty seldom need shoes.

LMH

Sep. 10, 2004, 12:09 PM

Well Tom-the troops made it to page 20 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lookout

Sep. 10, 2004, 12:51 PM

Tom Robinson of the UK has ridden Millenium Master in the Lulworth Castle CIC ** barefoot, and placed first in an intermediate horse trial in the UK with him. He has also ridden at Burghley (not barefoot to my knowledge) so he is not just some local yokel.

Bensmom

Sep. 10, 2004, 02:05 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I wonder if an FEI ground jury at a CCI could spin a horse at the initial vet inspection simply because he was barefoot? AFAIK, there is no rule stating your horse MUST be shod. But it is almost a no-brainer; at that level, you have shoes and you have studs. The GJ is allowed to stop any horse it does not feel "fit" for the event, generally applying to soundness and conditioning, but could this theoretically extend to shoeing? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AJ -- to answer your question, they certainly can and I've seen 'em question a barefoot horse. A competitor at Foxhall had a horse that she was trying to get an overreach healed on that the shoe was pulled on that foot and he was being worked in boots so that the injury could be treated. The horse was going to be shod for xc day -- the GJ questioned this extensively and as the horse trotted sound, she was allowed to continue as far as xc day. Sadly, the horse was spun Sunday morning and I wasn't ever sure quite why -- he didn't look demonstrably off to me, but then, the GJ didn't *ask* me either http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Was he spun because he did part of the event barefoot? I dunno, but I know it gave the GJ great pause.

Libby

Bethe Mounce

Oct. 19, 2004, 12:47 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by CHJoker:
I agree Estelle. Most of us are not Anti SHOE, or 100 percent barefoot, BUT,

We just want to know why barefoot is not presented as a viable option by most farriers, and why are there so many GOD D**%& BAD farriers out there?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because most farriers are not GOOD farriers......but there are two in Texas that, in my opinion, know more than many other farriers combined. Farriers don't only take care of your horses' hooves, they also have another job........they educate us horse owners very patiently and painstainkingly. A good farrier will recommend shoes or no shoes; sometimes it will depend on the terrain, or discipline, but if your horse was gifted with good solid hoof walls (good DNA), then it's best to leave hooves unshod unless you live on rocks. Farriers should not have to educate us horse owners, but it sure beats having to train the horse to pick its feet up! That should be left up to the owner, alas, too many times many owners think the farrier should be doing the training too.

As for your words about Tom, well, I am stepping in............he needs NO defending from me. But, I happen to know him, just saw him a week ago; and the man does know what he is talking about regardless of his "bedside manner." None of us are perfect. Besides who says we who post here have to be polite ALL the time? A spade is a spade. He calls it as he sees it, doesn't mince words, doesn't sugar coat it either. My farrier is exactly the same way and I wouldn't have it any other way............I do what I am told, and yes, I ask questions and they get answered, and if it hadn't been for my farrier I think I would have had further complications with our yearling, so farriers, doctors and lawyers are kinda alike......they may not be nice enough to suit my tastes, but they get the job done correctly the first time. Read what Tom says, don't read between the lines.

mellsmom

Oct. 19, 2004, 04:14 PM

When my fabulous PAco pony was living with me...he was barefoot. Hunted first flight and evented through novice recognized...and then he managed to get a slightly inflamed coffin joint. He was also wearing off a lot of toe in the course fotting at my house so I decided to put front shoes on him. My farrier (I loff him!) about had a fit. He did NOT want to put shoes on him. But, we did and years later he's very sound and still competing. When/if he retires from competing, we will pull the shoes. I also had a nice TB gelding.... notice i said TB. Who I got as a 6 year old. Barefoot until the footing starting wearing his feet down more than I was comfortable with.... so we added shoes. Aluminums the first shoeing since he had never had shoes before.
I'm seriously considering keeping my current crip barefoot and turning him out. The only problem I have is that he loves to trail ride and we have to cross a nasty gravel drive to get to and from teh trails. THis horse grows a TON of hoof, so he may actually be ok barefoot in my footing. We may get to see.