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hjchik
Jan. 21, 2004, 06:39 AM
Does it strike anyone else as unseemly that suspended trainers are allowed to continue to bring their entire barn to major shows, such as WEF, let another trainer pinch hit for them while even their tackroom is set up right in the middle of the showgrounds, and continue on in the same old, same old manner? Sure, they're not physically located on the grounds training, but clearly they're continuing to reap enormous profits by having their people out showing, collecting training fees, day care, money, etc. And what sort of signal does it send to young kids when they see a suspended trainer's barn and banner at WEF?

Not sure what the answer is, or if there even is one. Thoughts?

hjchik
Jan. 21, 2004, 06:39 AM
Does it strike anyone else as unseemly that suspended trainers are allowed to continue to bring their entire barn to major shows, such as WEF, let another trainer pinch hit for them while even their tackroom is set up right in the middle of the showgrounds, and continue on in the same old, same old manner? Sure, they're not physically located on the grounds training, but clearly they're continuing to reap enormous profits by having their people out showing, collecting training fees, day care, money, etc. And what sort of signal does it send to young kids when they see a suspended trainer's barn and banner at WEF?

Not sure what the answer is, or if there even is one. Thoughts?

buryinghill1
Jan. 21, 2004, 06:46 AM
The customers will not been suspended - in most cases... There's no reason they can't move to a new trainer.
The trainer's name cannot be "displayed" on the showgrounds. Some of us remember when GHM was set down - all the trunks had duct tape over the name "Hunterdon" and other folks trained the horses.
There is a rule about the replacement trainer making money to benefit the supended person - but I haven't had enough caffeine, so maybe someone else will chime in ... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
As for the banner - I'm sure when the "real" WEF starts in 7 days, someone will duct tape over the name http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Flash44
Jan. 21, 2004, 06:50 AM
I guess that is a moral decision clients and parents need to make on their own. We don't know what was said by the trainer to his/her clients.

War Admiral
Jan. 21, 2004, 07:01 AM
"Unseemly" is an admirable way of putting it, hjchik. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes, this infuriates me, too. These so-called suspensions are utterly meaningless, pointless, and a big fat waste of the Hearing Committee's time (not to mention your money and mine).

A suspension should be a SUSPENSION.

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

LH
Jan. 21, 2004, 07:11 AM
As long as the suspended trainers are obeying the rules, you (we) have nothing to judge or comment on.

If you don't like the rule or the effect of the rule, then you need to campaign to change the rule.

Janet
Jan. 21, 2004, 07:48 AM
Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your point of view) the USEF doesn't have any juristiction over what happens OFF the show grounds.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Midge
Jan. 21, 2004, 07:49 AM
Since those shows are not rated, they do not fall under the USEF rules.

Silk
Jan. 21, 2004, 08:10 AM
Why was GHM suspended and when was this?

**>>It's not bragging if you can back it up!<<**

FsD
Jan. 21, 2004, 08:18 AM
I know the topic is WEF

But there are also some suspended trainers set up at Ocala. They too are also in the unrated shots right now.


Just FYI

"Just ANOTHER Unpaid Groom, A Mom"

hjchik
Jan. 21, 2004, 08:23 AM
I understand that the WEF shows aren't rated as of yet, but the Littlewood ones are, correct?

Silk
Jan. 21, 2004, 08:26 AM
To answer the original poster's question: they are still in business because winning means that much to people. A couple of threads ago, everyone was raving about what a wonderful, hardworking student a particular junior was after she was profiled in a teen magazine. Her trainer is one who is suspended for drugging horses. I am not passing judgement -- I do not know what I would do in that situation. Trainers mean a lot to people. However, did this teenager really go this far because of her talent, or because her horse had "additional" substances to help it be so great?

I dont know the answer-- just posing a question.

**>>It's not bragging if you can back it up!<<**

Midge
Jan. 21, 2004, 08:39 AM
hjchik, Littlewood is not on the WEF grounds. They have a separate show grounds.

hjchik
Jan. 21, 2004, 09:07 AM
Midge-
I understand that...Just saying that they are still operating their businesses...still doesn't look good in my opinion.

whalo
Jan. 21, 2004, 09:21 AM
To answer the original poster's question: they are still in business because winning means that much to people. A couple of threads ago, everyone was raving about what a wonderful, hardworking student a particular junior was after she was profiled in a teen magazine. Her trainer is one who is suspended for drugging horses. I am not passing judgement -- I do not know what I would do in that situation. Trainers mean a lot to people. However, did this teenager really go this far because of her talent, or because her horse had "additional" substances to help it be so great?
------------------------------------------------

Do you seriously think that the drugs these trainers are giving to the horses are going to make them find the jumps, ride the ring, keep control and shape everywhere every step, get the leads, get the strides, make the rider maintain good feel and softness yet firm all at the same time!! All that these medications do is make a lame horse sound, make a crazy horse sain, or make a high horse quiet without crippling it on the lunge line! I am not saying that I agree with the use of illegal substances, but these substances DO NOT enhance the riding ability of the rider.

Stono Ferry
Jan. 21, 2004, 09:26 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Silk:
Why was GHM suspended and when was this?

QUOTE]


Yes more on this?

Midge
Jan. 21, 2004, 09:27 AM
hjchik, I don't think anyone feels they should be out of business. Their punishment involves fines and they are not allowed to be on the horse show grounds.

If anyone should be embarassed, it's the customers going in and out of those barns.

Flash44
Jan. 21, 2004, 09:29 AM
whalo, I have to disagree. It is much easier to give a good ride to a horse that is feeling no pain, sane, and quiet than it is to a horse that is tense or fussy for whatever reason. You have a lot fewer unexpected "whoopsies."

WWCountry
Jan. 21, 2004, 10:00 AM
Believe it or not, not all suspended trainers are dirty cheaters drugging every horse for better performance and ribbons. Some made truly honest mistakes.

For example, one particular suspended BNT allowed a Vet at a horse show to administer meds to a horse in his care due to illness. The vet advised waiting 45 days before showing this horse because the meds would test positive. This BNT waited 50+ days to show the horse who then tested positive at that show.

The Vet even testified to this scenario at the BNT's USEF trial to no avail. The USEF is on a witch hunt and some innocent people are getting burned. Yes, some are multiple offenders who need punishment but others just had bad luck.
If their clients want to stick by them, that's their perogative. Don't judge people's decisions without knowing all the info.

Party Rose
Jan. 21, 2004, 10:08 AM
Please do not judge me for what I am about to say. I believe 100%++++ that all persons suspended need to follow the rules and set a good example for the rest of the equine community.

1 1/2 years ago, I traveled across the country to meet with a person that will probably never be removed from the suspension list. I had personal business from my childhood to attend to with this person. Nothing horse related.

I was told by this person that they were late meeting with me, as the GP that they had just come back from, ran late. This person went to the GP, schooled the client and sat in the bleachers in a disquise and was never recognized. This is the same way that this person had schooled the same client a few months earlier in Florida. The clients mother was there at the house with us and the two of them just giggled about the entire situation.

Do you recall the trainer that would sit on a hill off of show grounds with binoculars and a radio devise and watch his clients school & show & then relay back to both the assistant trainer and the client?

What messages are we sending our children? The morals & values that are learnt while being involved with horses from an early age become engrained in our personalities and carry through to our adult lives.

What do we have to do to enforce these suspensions? Put a monitor on the suspended individuals, as the police do to those under house arrest?

More specific rules need to be written and enforced. I hate to think what will become of our horse community for our grandchildren.

MellowM
Jan. 21, 2004, 10:54 AM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Silk:
To answer the original poster's question: they are still in business because winning means that much to people. A couple of threads ago, everyone was raving about what a wonderful, hardworking student a particular junior was after she was profiled in a teen magazine. Her trainer is one who is suspended for drugging horses. I am not passing judgement -- I do not know what I would do in that situation. Trainers mean a lot to people. However, did this teenager really go this far because of her talent, or because her horse had "additional" substances to help it be so great?

I dont know the answer-- just posing a question.
QUOTE]

Silk - I agree with you...it makes me wonder also about all these so called "winners" who ride under a suspended trainer.

MellowM
Jan. 21, 2004, 10:57 AM
[QUOTE]
For example, one particular suspended BNT allowed a Vet at a horse show to administer meds to a horse in his care due to illness. The vet advised waiting 45 days before showing this horse because the meds would test positive. This BNT waited 50+ days to show the horse who then tested positive at that show.
QUOTE]

Oh gosh, that just seems to be everyone's story http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Sorry, but I think that is a load of crap.

TSWJB
Jan. 21, 2004, 10:59 AM
party rose:
what they should do is make a rule that anyone caught having any dealings with a suspended person will incur a one year automatic suspension. this would put fear in the clients hearts not giggles. and it is up to you to read the suspension list to see if your trainer is on it.

noname
Jan. 21, 2004, 11:00 AM
there are many people in the area that i live that are about to be set out for awhile. many of them have found "temporary" trainers to come in and take over teaching for them. i know they aren't allowed to make money off of any of this, but who's to say that they don't. it just doesn't seem like the rules we have in place right now are really working.

on the other side of the story you have the boarders at that barn. what if you were the one boarding with a trainer and then he had to sit out for a year. that is no fun. however, if it was up to me i would just move barns. maybe if other people felt the same way and moved trainers because they were suspended, it would be more of an incentive not to get suspended! who knows, it just seem like there are so many darn loopholes in many of our rules in regulations.

Smiles
Jan. 21, 2004, 11:07 AM
Maybe if they gave the general member the right to vote on this stuff maybe harsher rules could be set up for violaters. But we don't have a say and nothing ever really important ever changes, so as long as "they" have control expect these people to cheat the system and get off with a slap on the wrist. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just another day!!!

pgm
Jan. 21, 2004, 11:14 AM
Smiles:

Read the USEF news and notice the severity of the fines then understand that not showing means a lot of lost income to these guys. Its not just a slap on the wrist. Whats intersting to me is that some of the posters on this trhead know of people who are continuing to violate the rules and flout the federation's authority. Why don't they turn them in? Why are they protecting these people? Don't we have an obligation to police the sport for our own benefit? If we don't start effectively standing up to people who act in an unethical fashion, then we have no standing to rant and rave that the USEF is not doing enough. Especially when what the USEF is able to do is effective and does provide deterence to cheaters.

Smiles
Jan. 21, 2004, 11:21 AM
Pgm well when you only get 2 or 3 months suspension for drugging a horse and you still bring your entire opperation to wef and have someone else train them how much money are they really losing???

Just another day!!!

lauriep
Jan. 21, 2004, 11:30 AM
Fine, but bitching about it here does no good whatsoever! Change the rules if you think the punishments should be more severe! Give the hearing committees more latitude in dealing out appropriate punishments.

And, don't forget that the USEF is never going to be able to police anywhere other than its sanctioned showgrounds. And do you REALLY want them to be able to go anywhere else? Do you want them to be able to come to your barn, into your trailers, tack trunks, etc., at will? I really don't think that is something Iever want to see!

Laurie

hideyourheart03
Jan. 21, 2004, 12:03 PM
Does anyone know why GHM got suspended? I really would like to know too.

~~~~~~~Samantha~~~~~~~

Hide Your Heart aka ELI

Junior Clique * Baby Greenie Support Group * MOOP Clique * Non-GPA Clique * NC Clique

"The real me is a Southern girl, with the Levi's on and an open heart" ~ Jessica Simpson

ponyjumper4
Jan. 21, 2004, 12:07 PM
I'm curious about old GM myself....

Adult Pony Rider Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
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buryinghill1
Jan. 21, 2004, 12:15 PM
All right, all right, since you've all been asking... there was a time, probably before some of you were even a twinkle in mommy's eye, when "everyone" was sticking every hunter in the barn. Longe lines were only used by one Virginia barn. hahaha sorry you know who you are...
A lot of your heroes had vacations... some long, some short. Reserpine (yes, it rears it's ugly head again) was the drug of choice.
If I recall correctly, it was 1978.
Seems like old times. (Yo! VirginiaGirl, thanks for the date correction)

Now, back to the originial issue. The customers have nothing to do with a suspension! NOTHING. Why in gods name would all the "trainers horses" get set down? That's ridiculous. I am not responsible for my trainer's actions. What am I, co-dependant? The trainer is responsible for himself or herself.
If "the barn" is gonna get suspended, customers will be their own trainers. There's always a loophole http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And as for those "accidental" medications -- a trainers WORST nightmare is a distruntled employee, ex-employee, customer, neighbor, ex-customer, or some psycho jabbing a needle in Flicka just because you pissed them off. Be nice to the ingate guys, you never know... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[This message was edited by buryinghill1 on Jan. 21, 2004 at 03:26 PM.]

Portia
Jan. 21, 2004, 12:33 PM
If it makes you feel any better, there is one particular BNT who was suspended for a month, tried to get around it, and got caught at it. Now this person is going away for a much longer vacation.

Heather
Jan. 21, 2004, 12:45 PM
As I recall at an AHSA dinner some years ago (Hilton Head maybe?) GM also told a "funny anecdote" about getting suspended for "prepping a jumper" over a barbed wire fence and getting a "three month vacation."

lauriep
Jan. 21, 2004, 12:56 PM
BH1,

Yes, our lunge lines never retired, even with the big "R"!

1978 was the year, most of the vacations were of the same length, at least 2 that were supposed to go to Europe that year couldn't (I'm talking USET here, folks). One's horses actually were brought to Gladstone in preparation for leaving, but alas! It was not to be and they had to exit Gladstone.

And BH1 is absolutely correct in the damage a disgruntled ANYONE could do! The horses at these shows are not secure in any way, shape or form, and ANYONE with a mind to could "get" to them.

Not to say that is the case with these new suspensions...

Amazing how "everything old seems new again!"

Laurie

Lord Helpus
Jan. 21, 2004, 12:58 PM
Buryinghill 1,

If you are referring to the midnight raid at Devon, I recall that Karen Healey was GM's barn manager at the time and she took the fall. Everyone had a hard time believing that a barn manager would administer Reserpine to GM's horses without GM knowing. But Karen maintained that she was the responsible party and so it was Karen who was set down.

When her suspension ended, she moved to California and set up a very nice training business in an area which cost a lot of money to rent or own a farm.

If you are referring to a different occasion, then it would make two strikes for Hunterdon.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When I die, I want to die like my grandfather-who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car."

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 21, 2004, 01:11 PM
ya know...between the "oh, yeah, this is just round number X of the same thing" drug suspensions; the calcium cures; the LTD; the "dead horse walking" wins and just the sheer cost...

It's enough to make people like me, who probably SHOULD be looking to "move up" through the ranks to rated and bigger shows/classes say NO. Why am I going to join and give money to AHSA/USAEq/USEF/Initials du Jour for THIS?

I'm not in the business of turning horses around to make a profit, this is my hobby and my horse - while he is hoped to stay sane, sound, happy and competitive and to perform decently - is my companion and MY responsibility. Do I want to have to deal with all of this crap just to ride?

This is relevent to me because, prior to this recent round of suspensions, I had actually nudged around the idea of starting to take some lessons with Bob Crandall in my area. He seemed to be doing well at the big shows, and his farm would allow ship-ins, and I was juuuust getting ready to make the leap. He's among the suspended now, and I won't be going there...indeed, I may be staying local.

Sure, there are a couple of local trainers who use more Ace than appropriate training, but I'm starting to think it's not all that much worse than the "bigger ponds" out there...and here at least I know who some of those are!

Court@HJ-OH
Jan. 21, 2004, 01:42 PM
Wasn't George in a lot of hot water for a poling incident where the horse died not too long ago?

**Courtney**

guardjumper1
Jan. 21, 2004, 02:02 PM
I'm sure this is the wrong thing to say but I need to say it. You guys made a few comments on "winners", who really goes out there and rides and who's horses are drugged. I my opinon not everyone has mommy and daddy to buy them a 30,000 horse so people like me have to ride much harder rides. So all in all who is really the better rider the one with the perfect horse or the one with the harder horse that's trainer gave them a break by giving it a drug. I personally don't see a problem with some drugs for instance when I was younger I would take something to calm me down so I could the best ride possible so what's the difference a drug is not going to change the horses ability/talent just there mind set. You could go the other way lunge the animal to death in tight circles so it goes lame when it's 15. They both are doing the same thing so why is one better than the other. I'm so glad I do Jumpers because Hunter's prefection just drives me crazy.

Portia
Jan. 21, 2004, 02:06 PM
Court, that was three years ago or so, in Florida around this time of year. It was not exactly poling, and it was not on show grounds. As I recall, and somebody correct me if I'm wrong, it was in a clinic or teaching a lesson, and he was using a metal pole instead of or in addition to a rail. The horse hit the metal pole, it flipped out in front of the horse on end, the horse landed on it chest first, was impaled, and was killed.

It was the topic of one of the first very long and controversial threads on these boards.

Janet
Jan. 21, 2004, 02:10 PM
It generated a lot of negative PR, but no official actiuon, as far as I know, since it was NOT at a show.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Jake's Dad
Jan. 21, 2004, 02:14 PM
whalo...very good .....

Court@HJ-OH
Jan. 21, 2004, 02:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by guardjumper1:
I'm sure this is the wrong thing to say but I need to say it. You guys made a few comments on "winners", who really goes out there and rides and who's horses are drugged. I my opinon not everyone has mommy and daddy to buy them a 30,000 horse so people like me have to ride much harder rides. So all in all who is really the better rider the one with the perfect horse or the one with the harder horse that's trainer gave them a break by giving it a drug. I personally don't see a problem with some drugs for instance when I was younger I would take something to calm me down so I could the best ride possible so what's the difference a drug is not going to change the horses ability/talent just there mind set. You could go the other way lunge the animal to death in tight circles so it goes lame when it's 15. They both are doing the same thing so why is one better than the other. I'm so glad I do Jumpers because Hunter's prefection just drives me crazy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that druging a horse because you can't afford a quiet one makes you just as bad. A difference between you taking drugs and a horse is that you are making the decision for yourself, the horse is not.

**Courtney**

keljo
Jan. 21, 2004, 02:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
ya know...between the "oh, yeah, this is just round number X of the same thing" drug suspensions; the calcium cures; the LTD; the "dead horse walking" wins and just the sheer cost...

It's enough to make people like me, who probably SHOULD be looking to "move up" through the ranks to rated and bigger shows/classes say NO. Why am I going to join and give money to AHSA/USAEq/USEF/Initials du Jour for THIS?

I'm not in the business of turning horses around to make a profit, this is my hobby and my horse - while he is hoped to stay sane, sound, happy and competitive and to perform decently - is my companion and MY responsibility. Do I want to have to deal with all of this crap just to ride?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So very well saidHopeful Hunter!
Those are my thoughts exactly!

And I think it's safe to say we "hobby" riders are the backbone (and the silent majority) of this sport.

Midge
Jan. 21, 2004, 02:57 PM
As the owner of a hard horse I showed anyway and now an easy horse whose only drug regimen might be something to pep him up, I hate that people who 'do the right thing' are choosing to stay away because others attempt to cheat.

Go out and prove you don't have to cheat to win. Take your nice naturally quiet horse and raise the bar. Or take your hard horse that you have the skill to ride and give a demonstration.

Think of the satisfaction when you beat a trainer just back from his enforced vacation.

Party Rose
Jan. 21, 2004, 03:03 PM
TSWJB
Working Hunter
posted Jan. 21, 2004 01:59 PM


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>party rose:
what they should do is make a rule that anyone caught having any dealings with a suspended person will incur a one year automatic suspension. this would put fear in the clients hearts not giggles. and it is up to you to read the suspension list to see if your trainer is on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES, I agree with you, BUT you have to understand that your solution would still have little to no impact on this type of person, that is a trainer, not a client. Obviously this persons clients know very well what the person in question did & still chooses to conduct business with them and give them their pocketbook.

They are still beating the system as it is now set forth & that is where they get their pleasure from. Giggles turn to belly laughs & further.

This was a horrendous situation and I believe that there was and still is no remorse. NOTHING was learned.

I believe that with high level infrindgements, that no party be allowed to have any association with the suspended person in any horse related manner. If it is found that there are dealings, then ALL parties should then be suspended and the original suspender have their suspension extended for say a year longer and a fine paid, that could be dedicated to some special cause, possibly for handicapped riding programs.

I have read some very good sugestions on this thread. I also feel that by taking the voting out of the hands of those on committes (special interest groups), it could enable a fairer representation of how the average rider and parent feels the climate we all associate in should be monitored.

VivaDusty
Jan. 21, 2004, 03:23 PM
Everyone is making great points. I just want to chime in that these people suspended, for the most part make thier money and living off horses... although that does not excuse the reasons for being suspended.

~Hakunah Matatah!!!

Lord Helpus
Jan. 21, 2004, 03:25 PM
It is precisely BECAUSE suspension is not the penalty that the rulemakers had envisioned that the fines should be HUGE.

Keep the suspensions (even though they amount to little more than an inconvenience) but hit someone who violates the drig rules HARD in the pocketbook. Five figure fines. Then multiply logrhythmically for a second offense and mandatory life suspension AND a huge fine for a third offense.

I have absolutely NO pity for trainers who whine that their positive test was a mistake (blame the groom for giving the wrong feed, blame the vet for giving the wrong advice --BAH!!) Its like whining to a cop when you get a speeding ticket: "But officer, my speedometer is broken and my friend told me I was not speeding", Yeah ... right... Everyone knows that when they caught for speeding, it is not the first time they have gone over the speed limit. It is just that they have not been caught before. Some (possibly even all, although I do not know that) of these trainers who have been set down have been drugging for a long time. Crocodile tears do not move me at all. They just disgust me. How naive do these people think we are?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When I die, I want to die like my grandfather-who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car."

Party Rose
Jan. 21, 2004, 03:29 PM
VivaDusty...

That is one of the huge points. The idea of cutting off all of their resources of income may make those that are intentionally breaking the rules think a bit more before acting.

VivaDusty
Jan. 21, 2004, 03:34 PM
Party Rose, thats very true, i should have worded that better.

I meant that they are most likly not going to stop working, b/c alot of people still follow them. I just wanted to mention that we should acknowlegde thier human nature. I am glad to see that USEF is getting down to buisness latly with the drug testing.

~Hakunah Matatah!!!

PlusTax
Jan. 21, 2004, 04:09 PM
Just to play devil's advocate...

If you rode with a trainer who was great, taught you everything, you qualified for indoors and won, won a national championship, etc. Then one day you opened your magazine only to see that your trainer was on the suspension list. They had never done anything to you or your horse and the drugging or whatever was completely unrelated from you or your horse. Would you stay with them or leave? Would you get slightly offended if everyone made the assumption that your horse was drugged and the only reason you got as far as you did was because you were cheating? Would you say with them just to get back at everyone who laughed in your face when your trainer was caught? I really don't think it's fair to think that their clients should all leave in protest, they're all very accomplished and have worked hard to get where they are. Why should they give it all up?

**Kelsey**
&
**Plus Tax**

See my HORSES (http://community.webshots.com/user/jrhntrpavi) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And I have a LIFE (http://community.webshots.com/user/RhodesKelsey) too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

CBoylen
Jan. 21, 2004, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
And BH1 is absolutely correct in the damage a disgruntled ANYONE could do! The horses at these shows are not secure in any way, shape or form, and ANYONE with a mind to could "get" to them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They're absolutely not secure, and neither is anything else in the tents and barns. There's no way to keep a tight watch 24/7. We have so far had 4 boxes of adequan stolen out of our tackroom fridge, and our neighbors had 3 boxes of legend stolen a week later. The thieves could easily have used that time to stick the horses with any substance of their chosing. It's the ultimate nightmare.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Flash44
Jan. 21, 2004, 04:36 PM
Kudos Midge and Hopeless Hunter.

Flash44
Jan. 21, 2004, 04:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
And BH1 is absolutely correct in the damage a disgruntled ANYONE could do! The horses at these shows are not secure in any way, shape or form, and ANYONE with a mind to could "get" to them.
Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Another reason racing only allows vets to have certain meds, needles and syringes. Anyone caught with paraphernalia gets booted from the grounds, immediately suspended and goes before the stewards.

But it would be so much of a hassle to get the injections given if it was vets only, that it's better to just risk letting everyone who so desires to move about with needles, syringes, and meds. Who cares if the insubordinate groom that was fired last week sticks a horse with something illegal, heck, it's only 90 days...

CBoylen
Jan. 21, 2004, 04:59 PM
Yes, I'm sure our thief would have been apprehended if he were brandishing a syringe in a med-free environment, rather than simply rummaging through my fridge and someone's med trunk. You know, because it's so easy to police 21 tents and six permanent barns with the kind of protection the horse show and horse watch provide http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif.

I haven't made any comment on the vets-only injection giving topic, because frankly my vet is adorable and I'd love to see more of him under non-emergency circumstances. But, since it applies here too, I'll mention that I don't think anyone in favor of that type of arrangement really gets the SCOPE of a big H/J show. The show vets, and I can think of nine off the top of my head, barely cope with their responsibilities now. They go from 7am to whatever hour they're needed, including emergencies. If you make an appointment you do so DAYS in advance. Give them a break, and let them do their jobs where they're really needed, instead of adding to their workload things that can be accomplished by the qualified layperson.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

gottageteasier
Jan. 21, 2004, 05:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Oh gosh, that just seems to be everyone's story http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Sorry, but I think that is a load of crap.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MellowM-- I am with ya! I am tired of hearing about how there is this one BNT who at band camp happened to have his vet treat a poor sick horse and then and then the horsey tested positive because even though the horsey was in pain or sick the BNT was still going to have horsey shown.. and.. and... then the vet would testify for the BNT because you know how could it possibly be that the BNT would want horsey to have some testable drug!

*snort*

Give me a break. Too many people have used that excuse far more than just this round of suspensions.

gottageteasier
Jan. 21, 2004, 05:12 PM
Hmm... so I guess with GM's own set down(s) I guess it negates his statement about those using horses just for business are classless.

Flash44
Jan. 21, 2004, 05:13 PM
Thousands of race horses follow the good weather and manage to get all the veterinary attention they need, and same with the sales.

Uberraschung
Jan. 21, 2004, 05:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>what they should do is make a rule that anyone caught having any dealings with a suspended person will incur a one year automatic suspension. this would put fear in the clients hearts not giggles. and it is up to you to read the suspension list to see if your trainer is on it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wtf? What century would this be in? It sounds like something from the Henry VIII era (What? you're associated with Anne Boleyn's boyfriend's page? Off with your head because you may have known what was going on) Being guilty by association just doesn't cut it for me. You'd have to lynch 95% of the AHSA.

I ride with anyone who will teach me, and I have happily ridden with some set aside people, as have many other people on this board. Some of them have creepy/sketchy sides or they may just see the horses as a disposable commodity, but DAMN they are good trainers of people and horses. I progressed more in one lesson with one banned BNT than I did with one year at a local guy. So I stayed with the BNT. I look out for number one (my horsie), and if that is what it takes to have him go well, then I am all for it. I am 100% responsible for the care of my horse and I trust my trainer, so I have no worries.

Party Rose
Jan. 21, 2004, 06:03 PM
I would not ride with anyone that had been proven to be knowingly directly related to any illegal action.

Think of it this way. If they feel above the law & act in poor taste, then that means that their morals & values are at the same low level.

That is in the trash.

One would agree that this is the way this person runs their entire life & I for one want nothing to do with this type of behavior.

There are plenty of good trainers out there for us to ride with & promote not only their morals, but their good work ethics.

OLD A/O
Jan. 21, 2004, 07:08 PM
You what to know what is really sick about all this?

I have ridden with a lot of the people on this list and on horse they have bought for me- which I paid for. I have even ridden with their parents. Some of their parents put my horses on the big T and did not tell me as an owner. However, after a while I did put the crazy picture together for myself. I now show by myself.

So what goes around comes around!!!!!

I do not feel sorry for any of them. I do feel sorry for the owner that does not have a clue this is happening!!!! I have been there and I would not have wanted if I had known!!! Sometimes trainers are real crooks- even to their really good customers!!!!!

PS: One BNT had four horse of mine every week for years and then they screwed me!! Guess what I went out on my own!!! I have done okay but not great - however I do it drug free!!!!

Beezer
Jan. 21, 2004, 07:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlusTax:
Just to play devil's advocate...

If you rode with a trainer who was great, taught you everything, you qualified for indoors and won, won a national championship, etc. Then one day you opened your magazine only to see that your trainer was on the suspension list. They had never done anything to you or your horse and the drugging or whatever was completely unrelated from you or your horse. Would you stay with them or leave? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Kelsey, it just may be my insecurities talking http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but my FIRST reaction would be to wonder if the reason I won all those awards was because my horse was drugged. It might also have something to do with the fact that I DID ride with a BNT who, when I discovered that he drugged other horses in the barn, swore to me that my greenie was not among them. I later learned -- much to my painful regret -- that he lied to me.

I no longer do any business with that BNT. If I found myself in a similar situation today, you can BET that my horse and belongings would be on my trailer outta there. To stay would be to condone the actions of the person in question; would you excuse the actions of a teacher who sexually abuses a student just because he or she was a "great teacher" for someone else's kids?

And Uberraschung, your worldview is so different from mine that I don't think we will ever find a common ground. How would you answer the teacher question?

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

Offset
Jan. 21, 2004, 07:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There's no way to keep a tight watch 24/7. We have so far had 4 boxes of adequan stolen out of our tackroom fridge, and our neighbors had 3 boxes of legend stolen a week later. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why you get a lock for your fridge... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If you make it complicated, the thieves will go on to someone else's tackroom.

Uberraschung
Jan. 21, 2004, 07:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>would you excuse the actions of a teacher who sexually abuses a student just because he or she was a "great teacher" for someone else's kids?

And Uberraschung, your worldview is so different from mine that I don't think we will ever find a common ground. How would you answer the teacher question?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a whole 'nother ballgame, Beezer. Horses are a business and a commodity. Children are not. People may want to treat their horses like humans (and vice versa sometimes...toddler herding! A new sport on TNN http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), but the fact remains that they are animals.

I love my horse and he means the world to me. I like to think he loves me back, but deep down I know he's just a animal with a brain the size of a peanut who is happy to have 3 square meals, a warm bed, and a good scratch on his withers every day.

I may not agree with the practices of some trainers (I never said that I did) but that doesn't mean that they still can't teach me something that will improve the quality of my horse's life and help me reach my goals.

The horse's main virtue is his downfall - the willingness of the horse to be tamed and used for business purposes has led to his exploitation.

Court@HJ-OH
Jan. 21, 2004, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by PlusTax:
Just to play devil's advocate...

If you rode with a trainer who was great, taught you everything, you qualified for indoors and won, won a national championship, etc. Then one day you opened your magazine only to see that your trainer was on the suspension list. They had never done anything to you or your horse and the drugging or whatever was completely unrelated from you or your horse. Would you stay with them or leave? Would you get slightly offended if everyone made the assumption that your horse was drugged and the only reason you got as far as you did was because you were cheating? Would you say with them just to get back at everyone who laughed in your face when your trainer was caught? I really don't think it's fair to think that their clients should all leave in protest, they're all very accomplished and have worked hard to get where they are. Why should they give it all up?

**Kelsey**
&
**Plus Tax**

See my http://community.webshots.com/user/jrhntrpavi http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And I have a http://community.webshots.com/user/RhodesKelsey too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Kelsey,
I totally understand what you are saying. I think the world of my trainer and would have a tough time leaving him if he were out of the blue caught druging a horse. I would sit him down and ask for an explaination. I trust my trainer and would probably accept any explaination he gave me...THE FIRST TIME!! But not time after time!!!

**Courtney**

Beezer
Jan. 21, 2004, 09:23 PM
As I said, Uberraschung, our worldviews are universes apart. I realize that some/many/most may consider horses to be a business and a commodity, but they are not to me -- and, I would dare say, some/many/most horse owners. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Frankly, I would agree with you that horses see humans as pretty much a meal ticket. And while, yes, I love my beasties with all my heart, I am well aware that they are most likely unable to return that emotion.

But that does not lessen our responsibility to care for them in a humane, ethical way. The trainers who are on the suspension list for drugging and other crimes violated that very fundamental rule.

And in that regard, they are no different from an abusive teacher or priest. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 21, 2004, 09:44 PM
One can but hope that Uberraschung may be a troll, but I fear not.

Like Beezer, your worldview isn't in my universe. I DO care about the quality of the person/company/organization with whom I do business; I DO view my horse as a responsibility which I have accepted, as a living partner (although not a pet as some do, which is another perfectly fine relationship, just not one I'm able to support emotionally or financially) and not as a commodity.

I'm known as a pretty startlingly liberal person in my circle. But I'm also known as being totally harda$$ed about a couple of things, and one of them is illegal use of drugs by humans, for themselves, on animals, whatever. Now, for first-time offenders for use on themselves, I think treatment MUST be a response, along with major changes in life options/experiences. But for using those drugs on animals who do not choose that course of their own volition? Not much mercy here.

That's why I just would not be comfortable giving or continuing to give economic succor to someone indicted for drug abuse. If I was a client of a trainer caught in this, I would want an explaination, but I'd most certainly be looking to get out as soon as I could.

Drug use makes people lie; it makes them do things you might not expect them to, things that you'd think were outside their characters. I have limited time, limited energy and limited money. I choose to spend it on what I view as positive experiences and exchanges, and supporting someone whose essential character is deficient is not one of those ways in my world.

DMK
Jan. 22, 2004, 04:04 AM
OK, Uber, we can work the commodity angle as well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Say beef producer A produces pretty darn good beef for your store and is not more expensive than the average producer. But you find out that Producer A also injects his cattle with an illegal growth stimulant hormone that is probably not so great for the cattle, but quite franky they are out od the picture before it could cause them real harm AND the effects on small children are as yet unknown, but highly suspected to be NOT GOOD, and as such is considered to be illegal by the regulating agency.

In this commodity world (not the real one) Producer A's beef is off the shelves asap and he is fined. But Producer A can still sell you beef off his farm. Meanwhile Producer A is working on a test free version of his drug of choice. I mean it gets a steer to market faster, bigger and tastier, don't you know. It's what the people want... So how quick ya heading over there to buy some beef to cook up for your kids?

Yes, I can understand that where a person has been sanctioned and you already have a relationship and friendship with this person, any decisions you make are much more difficult than a lot of people want to think that they are... But it is tough for me to make the case of hey, it's just a commodity. Technically yes, but there are very few people at almost any level that thinks that way.

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

Silk
Jan. 22, 2004, 04:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>------------------------------------------------

Do you seriously think that the drugs these trainers are giving to the horses are going to make them find the jumps, ride the ring, keep control and shape everywhere every step, get the leads, get the strides, make the rider maintain good feel and softness yet firm all at the same time!! All that these medications do is make a lame horse sound, make a crazy horse sain, or make a high horse quiet without crippling it on the lunge line! I am not saying that I agree with the use of illegal substances, but these substances DO NOT enhance the riding ability of the rider.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yeah...I think it tips the scales in a way that is unfair to the riders who play fair! Who can argue with that fact? Rider A cheats and wins...rider B doesn't cheat and comes in second. Hmmm......

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**

Sleepy
Jan. 22, 2004, 05:42 AM
Those who think your horses view you simply as a meal ticket have obviuosly never lived with your animals 24 hours a day in your backyard. Mine are very much like large dogs. They talk to me and come up for rubs and can be insanely jealous of each other AND the dog.

Like Beezer, I find it Uberraschung's view rather appalling.

''Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.''
- Pablo Picasso

rider11
Jan. 22, 2004, 05:45 AM
I don't post that often, but I had to respond to the child abuse/food safety comparisons.

I don't think you can even begin to compare an abusive teacher and unsafe food to drugged horses. Are you saying that a horse's life is equal to a child's life?? Flame suit zipped http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif - like Uberraschung said, in the end - they are animals.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I love my horse and he means the world to me. I like to think he loves me back, but deep down I know he's just a animal with a brain the size of a peanut who is happy to have 3 square meals, a warm bed, and a good scratch on his withers every day.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with that completely.

A child's life or human health (eating unsafe foods) is no comparison to trainers' drugging horses. Although I do think that all are wrong, they are not in the same league.

One last comment - I personally do not think that drugging a horse means winning - talent and hard-work do. (and no,I am not some naive person, I've been in the show world and seen my share of drugging, but then again I have also seen a lot of those horses lose.) Like an earlier post said, drugs do not make the horses find the jumps, count the strides, and equitate(?) their rider.

Flash44
Jan. 22, 2004, 07:00 AM
Hey Uber, do you realize the BNTs knowingly broke the rules, probably repeatedly? You know, there are some mutual fund guys looking for work and some woman who does decorating...you could probably get a good deal and learn a lot.

ESG
Jan. 22, 2004, 07:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
It generated a lot of negative PR, but no official actiuon, as far as I know, since it was NOT at a show.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, there was a hearing, but I forget whether it was AHSA or an actual court hearing. GM was absolved.......I guess..........but that was the last of it, except in the minds of those who thought he was pretty stupid to have done something like that in the first place. I know there were more than a couple of riders that had second thoughts about clinicking with him after that. I know I would have..................... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

ESG
Jan. 22, 2004, 07:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lord Helpus:
It is precisely BECAUSE suspension is not the penalty that the rulemakers had envisioned that the fines should be HUGE.

Keep the suspensions (even though they amount to little more than an inconvenience) but hit someone who violates the drig rules HARD in the pocketbook. Five figure fines. Then multiply logrhythmically for a second offense and mandatory life suspension AND a huge fine for a third offense.

I have absolutely NO pity for trainers who whine that their positive test was a mistake (blame the groom for giving the wrong feed, blame the vet for giving the wrong advice --BAH!!) Its like whining to a cop when you get a speeding ticket: "But officer, my speedometer is broken and my friend told me I was not speeding", Yeah ... right... Everyone knows that when they caught for speeding, it is not the first time they have gone over the speed limit. It is just that they have not been caught before. Some (possibly even all, although I do not know that) of these trainers who have been set down have been drugging for a long time. Crocodile tears do not move me at all. They just disgust me. How naive do these people think we are?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When I die, I want to die like my grandfather-who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car."
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Very well said, LH. I couldn't agree more.

Uberraschung
Jan. 22, 2004, 07:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
Hey Uber, do you realize the BNTs knowingly broke the rules, probably repeatedly? You know, there are some mutual fund guys looking for work and some woman who does decorating...you could probably get a good deal and learn a lot.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Do you realize that many of the trainers have been doing stuff like that for years, and a lot still have never been caught? It's unrealistic to think that the banned trainers are the only ones to drug their horses. They were just unlucky enough to get caught. Sure, it sucks, but I'm not going to lose any sleep over it.

I also just can't agree with you Beezer that a trainer that drugs a horse can be equated to a child molester. It isn't even close to being in the same league.

Of course, all this is probably why I stay in the jumpers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And Sleepy, my horse has lived with me for 90% of his life. No one knows better than I his behaviors. But he is an animal.

keljo
Jan. 22, 2004, 07:44 AM
For those in the "it's okay to do X to the horse, it's just an animal" mindset, here's another comparison for you. Dogfighting.
Yes, pit-bull fighting is a thriving underground "business" in some areas. (How classless! GM would say) People are making fistfuls of money off of these animals--a recent bust in this area had a $50K winner-take-all pot! Of course, in that "sport" the losers die, but they're just animals!
That's cruel and horrific, you say, and illegal to boot! Yes it is!

It really doesn't matter how much their walnut-brain can hold, or if they "really" love you, when you take possession of an animal you also take on the responsibility to care for them and act in their best interest. Anything less is neglect at best, cruelty at worst...kind of like a kid!

Flash44
Jan. 22, 2004, 07:57 AM
Yes, it can be difficult finding a trainer who shares one's views on medication levels. Just because they have not been caught does not mean they never did anything wrong.

However, I can't imagine my trainer drugging all 10-15 horses that go to the show, and eating the cost because no one gets billed for it. I'm one of the first ones to the barn on show days, and I've never seen anything suspicious. Which, of course, does not mean nothing is happening, or has happened in the past.

Pocket Pony
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:22 AM
I do think you can compare the beef cattle example to the drugging horse example. It is unsure what the long-term effects of the growth hormones will have on people. It may or may not cause problems for little Susie down the road. Drugging little Susie's pony could prove to be highly dangerous. You don't know if this is the day that the pony is going to miss a step or trip and fall on Susie...and then she's hurt...and then how do you feel about drugging her pony?

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

rider11
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:29 AM
For all of those who immediately equate that thinking a horse is an animal = drugging is okay. I suggest you read the posts more carefully.

I (and Uber also) both stated that we DO NOT think that drugging is okay.

However, on NO level can you equate child abuse to giving a horse medication. Illegal yes, but definately not the same results.

Batgirl - I highly doubt that any horses at rated show are drugged to the extent that they are going to trip because of the medication. Any horse can trip, any kid can get hurt - but these horses are not standing there with their tongues hanging out. You would be hard-pressed to find a cause-effect relationship, just like proving that drugged horses won because they were drugged. There are too many variables, you can't prove it.

Uberraschung
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:35 AM
Flash: I was a working student for a long time at a BNT's who drugged the horses. (Ahhh to be young, working for free, and willing to do anything to ride fancy horses and have a chance...) The most valuable thing I took away from that job was how to give IV shots because the horses were aced everytime the owners came to ride. Of course the clients didn't know. They weren't paying all that money to know, but to win. And they do. Before shows, instead of ace the horses were lunged so that they wouldn't test. The bills were itemized in such a way that the cost was absorbed. The clients were never directly charged for the medication, but I think that when a monthly bill(including training) for one horse is around $10k/month (including all the nickeling and diming) then the trainer can easily absorb the cost. During WEF, the bills per horse at this place were easily around 20k-25k per horse. Who cares about $30 worth of medication when that is just a drop in the bucket compared to the other fees?

Beck
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:39 AM
Beezer, Hopeful Hunter, ESG, et al...thank you. You have gone a long way to restoring my faith in the equestrian community.

guardjumper1
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:56 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by guardjumper1:
I'm sure this is the wrong thing to say but I need to say it. You guys made a few comments on "winners", who really goes out there and rides and who's horses are drugged. I my opinon not everyone has mommy and daddy to buy them a 30,000 horse so people like me have to ride much harder rides. So all in all who is really the better rider the one with the perfect horse or the one with the harder horse that's trainer gave them a break by giving it a drug. I personally don't see a problem with some drugs for instance when I was younger I would take something to calm me down so I could the best ride possible so what's the difference a drug is not going to change the horses ability/talent just there mind set. You could go the other way lunge the animal to death in tight circles so it goes lame when it's 15. They both are doing the same thing so why is one better than the other. I'm so glad I do Jumpers because Hunter's prefection just drives me crazy.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think that druging a horse because you can't afford a quiet one makes you just as bad. A difference between you taking drugs and a horse is that you are making the decision for yourself, the horse is not.

**Courtney**[/QUOTE

All I am saying is that a calming drug does not help your horse find a distance, jump better, develop a bigger stride, tighter knees etc. Your right horses can't make decisions for themselves that is why humans are there to do what best suits the horse. If the horse is nervous for his first couple shows I'm sure he would like to take the edge off, horses don't enjoy being scared. Personally I've never had to drug a horse nor would I because I do the Jumpers so I don't want the edge off my horse, however I know plenty of very nice horses with mental issues that end up at the auctions for no good reasons. I think the real problem is everyone just wants the perfect horse and in reality there is no such thing.

Lord Helpus
Jan. 22, 2004, 09:05 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rider11:
Batgirl - I highly doubt that any horses at rated show are drugged to the extent that they are going to trip _because_ of the medication. Any horse can trip, any kid can get hurt - but these horses are not standing there with their tongues hanging out. You would be hard-pressed to find a cause-effect relationship, just like proving that drugged horses won because they were drugged. There are too many variables, you can't prove it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you miss my post on the long thread about the catch rider (stable rider was *unavailable* for a day) who rode three horses who just.... never elevated for a jump and went right through it.

People had a hard time missing the exchange between said catch rider and the BNT at the back gate after the third episode. Suffice it to say that the rider declined to ride anymore horses from that barn.

So, yes. It is very possible to cause a horse to be dangerous to ride. Three horses from one barn -- three horses who usually did very well and were talented horses, who failed to push off in front of a jump. Very scary.

I never did hear where the pro who usually rode for the barn was that day. Smart lady....

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"When I die, I want to die like my grandfather-who died peacefully in his sleep. Not screaming like all the passengers in his car."

Ridin' Fool
Jan. 22, 2004, 09:06 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Flash: I was a working student for a long time at a BNT's who drugged the horses. (Ahhh to be young, working for free, and willing to do anything to ride fancy horses and have a chance...) The most valuable thing I took away from that job was how to give IV shots because the horses were aced everytime the owners came to ride. Of course the clients didn't know. They weren't paying all that money to know, but to win. And they do. Before shows, instead of ace the horses were lunged so that they wouldn't test. The bills were itemized in such a way that the cost was absorbed. The clients were never directly charged for the medication...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! I think I worked for the same BNT, although mine went to Indio. I refused to learn how to give an IV shot for the very reason! Said BNT was/ is very tight with a familiar vet many of see us at AA midwest shows.

So, few things:
Some of the vets are just as guilty as the trainers! More responsibility should be laid on the vet, their ability to go back on show grounds.

As the rider/owner of many "hard rides", if I can even be competitive (and I am) in the same league as those with 100k horses, I am happy. If I get a ribbon amongst that class, cool! I'm completely thrilled. I don't havea choice - the hard ones are all I can afford, so make the best of it and I enjoy all the "little victories" from show to show.

I've ridden with several BNT's and barns - I learned what I could from those folks, walked away from those unethical. Now ride with a laid-back, low key trainer who puts our horses' care totally in our hands, including meds. Strongest thing we give is Legend.

Those who mention sabotage - happens all the time, and to good, honest people! As someone who had keep watch one night after my trainer got into a tiff with another one, it can happen. I've also had Legend, Robaxin and even health certificates stolen right out of my tack box and fridge. Now, I give Legend right before the show and do not bring any syringes or meds to the grounds - they're locked up in my car or trailer.

Sad to say, but you gotta look out for yourself and not worry so much about everyone else. To be honest, does knowing Don Stewart got set down for reseperine REALLY affect my everyday riding and showing. No.

Just a thought - what happens to a high school coach if one of his players is caught using steroids? George W. brought up the steroidal and drug issue in the State of the Union - found it interesting he brought the subject up considering the chaos in our own sport world.

keljo
Jan. 22, 2004, 09:22 AM
I may be beating a dead you-know-what at this point, but I'm disturbed at how non-chalantly some of you describe giving these PRESCRIPTION (they're like that for a reason, you know) drugs when you have no knowledge of the side effects, short or long term. I work in research, and we have to follow FEDERAL guidelines for frequency of tranquilizers--yes, there's a limit on how often they can be given. Yet, Uber describes a dose of Ace before every ride!?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif A side effect of Ace--decreased gut motility--good before surgery, bad for a horse everyday (colic, anyone?). Do the riders need a Valium before every ride too? Sorry, I don't know any vets that give a tranq as standard procedure. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Anyone know the long-term effects of Dexamethasone (remember, it's a steroid!)?
Oh, but the owners are paying mucho denero so they can get a ten-cent ribbon and their name in the COTH--well, that makes it okay then! Oh, but it's a business, you know! Anything for a buck!

Silk
Jan. 22, 2004, 09:35 AM
But it seems more and more that is what it takes to win at these AA and AAA shows. A SUPER-UBER fancy horse with a HUGE jump, a HUGE stride, but DEAD quiet??? Hello??? Is anyone really reading that? This is NOT the animal as God (or time) intended!!

To say a nice quiet 15 hand TB or Qh cant be competitive because he 1) doesnt jump his rider out of the tack and 2) has to put in an extra stride or FLY (oooppps...cant dop that...must be QUIETLY LOPING) down the lines is a ridiculous but very true concept now-a-days!

Would anyone here actually hunt their hunter? I had a medium pony that foxhunted with myopia and Tanheath as a kid -- AND qualified for pony fineal!! Anyone?? Can any ponyjock of today say that about their pony?

I just gave up the rated shows. I think they suck. I think the whole stride rquirement is stupid and poor horsemanship. I am 4'10. How dumb do I look on a 17h wb that lopes the lines? I cant even release enough not to catch him in the mouth. Why do I have to ride a giant horse to be competitive? Dont tell me I can ride a 15.2 hand horse because to find one that has that step would be prohibitively expensive. Been there. i am back to my ponies who I love and win with frequently at the MHC/NEHC/RI shows.

**&gt;&gt;It's not bragging if you can back it up!&lt;&lt;**

Flash44
Jan. 22, 2004, 09:42 AM
Uber, I imagine that is very possible in a big barn, but this barn was small enough I would have seen or heard something. And known if my horse was drugged.

Tiramit
Jan. 22, 2004, 09:51 AM
Nice comparison, DMK! It worked for precisely the reason LH and batgirl mentioned. Presumably under-skilled riders are climbing aboard some of the illegally drugged horses.

Perhaps, rider11, this example would seem more fitting. What would you think of a parent who knowingly leaves their child with a babysitter who is stoned? Nice mellow babysitter who is there to take care of the child... Nothing wrong with that - fully functional person. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

Peggy
Jan. 22, 2004, 10:08 AM
Is it child abuse to put a kid on a drugged horse knowing that the effects of said drugs could cause the horse to crash a fence he would otherwise have jumped?

Uberraschung
Jan. 22, 2004, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Uber, I imagine that is very possible in a big barn, but this barn was small enough I would have seen or heard something. And known if my horse was drugged.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know you Flash, but I assume that you (like most people, including myself...please correct me if I am wrong) are not fortunate enough to have the means to attend WEF, which is that this thread is about - trainers who go to WEF who drug their horses. I've been to WEF as a w.s., and I can attest to the fact that it is a different world entirely. I don't expect that most trainers in this world drug their clients' horses(which is a good thing)...but I found that it was a prevalent event in quite a few of the well known barns at WEF.

Flash44
Jan. 22, 2004, 11:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hjchik:
Does it strike anyone else as unseemly that suspended trainers are allowed to continue to bring their entire barn to major shows, such as WEF, let another trainer pinch hit for them while even their tackroom is set up right in the middle of the showgrounds, and continue on in the same old, same old manner? Sure, they're not physically located on the grounds training, but clearly they're continuing to reap enormous profits by having their people out showing, collecting training fees, day care, money, etc. And what sort of signal does it send to young kids when they see a suspended trainer's barn and banner at WEF?

Not sure what the answer is, or if there even is one. Thoughts?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I guess everyone has to make their own decision as to what lengths they will go to win. How much medication (legal or not) will you allow your horse to receive? With whom will you affiliate yourself in your quest for winning, or just developing your riding skills? What kind of behavior will you tolerate in your trainer?

It's a gray area, I've yet to see anyone with a halo.

buryinghill1
Jan. 22, 2004, 11:20 AM
Devildog87... being in "the arms of Johnny Depp" would be like a drug to me http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

you crack me up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

*stellar*
Jan. 22, 2004, 11:21 AM
Child Abuse is a crime. Animal Cruelty is a crime. Drugging a horse unnecessarily is cruel. It may not alway appear that way, but its true. Giving a horse a tranq then asking it to canter/jump/whatever is cruel to me. I know the feeling after taking a strong does of Tylenol 3 after surgery, i didn't wanna move, I wanted to sleep. If someone made me do any exercise, I'd consider that curel, but I'd be to sleep to do anything about it.

Lets talk pain medication. Even though the horse can't feel it, the damage is still being done on the inside. They will feel pain later on, worse than before. They are still working and moving and if they are injured, often they deed to stop that. That to be is cruel. So not only is Animal cruelt against the rules, its against the law to.

Now I have no experience wiht horse drugs, so some please enlighten me. Are any of these drugs given to horses actually illegal? Or just against competition rules?

Kahuna
Jan. 22, 2004, 11:22 AM
Ridin' Fool - Check your PT's. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

___________
"There is a world of difference in how you will experience the Galapagos with a Level 3 guide."

Black Market Radio
Jan. 22, 2004, 11:35 AM
BH1, Glad I could make you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
I'm a Lumberjack and I'm Ok

Release First
Jan. 22, 2004, 11:44 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by whalo:
...
Do you seriously think that the drugs these trainers are giving to the horses are going to make them find the jumps, ride the ring, keep control and shape everywhere every step, get the leads, get the strides, make the rider maintain good feel and softness yet firm all at the same time!! All that these medications do is make a lame horse sound, make a crazy horse sain, or make a high horse quiet without crippling it on the lunge line! I am not saying that I agree with the use of illegal substances, but these substances DO NOT enhance the riding ability of the rider.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drugging a horse does not enhance the riding ability of a rider but is that really what is being judged in the equitation/hunter ring. A fabulous rider on a rushing, bucking or spooking horse is not going to score as well as a fair to good rider on a horse that is not doing any of those things. If the drugs do not enhance how the horse/rider is scored in the ring, then it would make NO SENSE to use them. The BEST rider in the world can not make a rushing, strong horse into a lopey-dope hunter. (I am not about training, just riding).

If I did not believe that you can train past these issues and be competitive with the drugged horse I would not be in the business. I accept that I am not playing on a level playing field and honestly feel that we can come out on top often enough to make showing worth while. I got into this business and stay in this business because of my love of the horse. I love watching the short stirrup division where you see the old school masters. I love their eyes. I love watching the pre-green classes because of the athletic ability of the youngsters. And of course I love watching the jumpers show off their athleticism. My heart cries when I see a horse being abused or treated unfairly. Again their eyes say it all. I miss being able to watch all the other divisions (western, parade, etc.) because I learned from watching them and I was able to enjoy all the other kinds of horses. I will now always remember that the reason I am part of this world is the horses and that I owe it to them to remember them first. Since I think that we can all agree that a horse doesn't care if he is a champion, then I must remember that when I am pushing towards that goal for the rider.

I hope this thread is being read by the powers that be so that when someone mentions that we should "monitor ourselves" they would know that is not a workable situation.

When you are on your horse you can see forever. - Victor Hugo Vidal
Justice will only be achieved when those who are not injured by crime feel as indignant as those who are. - King Soloman (970-928B.C.)

rider11
Jan. 22, 2004, 12:29 PM
Okay, I will state this for the last time...At no time did I say I was pro-drugging. I do not think you have to drug horses (the many unauthorized dismounts I have taken prove it) and I do not think that kids should have drugged horses to replace safe ones.

I point of my post was that animal welfare and human welfare are not on the same level. I love my animals more than anything, but they are not children. No one on this board will agree with me, but isn't that what this is for - to disagree. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

scrubs
Jan. 22, 2004, 12:36 PM
After lurking for a long time, I finally am motivated to write something!
Party Rose - Yes, I rember said trainer all dressed up, and in fact said something in the show office about it - was pretty much laughed outta there - LOTS and LOTS of people knew he was there and what he was doing - but just like the horses he killed, people turned a blind eye. No different than the very palacial barn just off WEF property of one of his cohorts in CRIME and MURDER. It is status to cheat the system, and they are laughing their way to to the bank.

C Boylen: Med TRUNKS - I know, I've SEEN them - cracks me up you even have to use such a term. Other than an emergency first aid kit, why the HELL does anyone need a MED TRUNK at a horse show???!! Many of these are bigger than the tack trunks people bring to the shows - its obvious you had one!! And for god sakes, just lock you trucnks and tack rooms, hire somebody to watch your horses, you are very quick to place the blame of the "odd ball" possibilities and not looking at the obvious. Ever heard of the idea that the simplist answer is probably the truth - rather than all these poor saps being targeted by night time, terroist-type horse-druggers and completely confused grooms and feed personnel - perhaps you are trying to explain away the obvious...people are CHEATING AND BREAKING THE RULES, Period. And, many of us DO understand the SCOPE of a big H/J show (we're not all bumpkins as you would like to believe). And many of us are willing to pay the price for a level playing field. They test EVERY winner at the track, yes, a little easier to grap a winner after a race but at shows it can be done - perhaps with logistics improved. If every placed horse in a class was tested plus a handfull of random horses in each class, this wouldn't be an issue like it is now. Have mobile units at every show and a USEF vet. Take duplicate smaples in case there is a dispute and one set can be sent to a better lab. I'll happily, joyfully, willingly PAY for it with my dues - I'd rather pay more for that than paying dues and walking down showbarn aisles full of med trunks and knowing damned well nothing is done about it. The testing IS moving in the right direction, I'll give it that, but like others said, the penalties need to be much stiffer AND the OWNERS MUST BE LIABLE. If someone even STEALS my car, I have responsibility for it, let alone if I ALLOW someone to operate it. There shold be no difference in someone managing / riding your horse. Maybe if there was some resposibility put on these owners, they would not tolerate trainers behaviours or a groom's "mistakes". I can't imagine that an owner would keep a string of horses with a trainer if the owner and his/her horses were banned from showing and fined 5 or 6 figures. The buck has to stop with the person who carries the wallet, otherwise you can keep pointing the finger down the line. This reminds me of an article I read in PH (sorry Coth) about Geoff TEal not even allowing an owner at the horse's vet check - huh???? But that is the atmosphere we have been led into at the top of the horse sow world. Owners must take responisbility for what goes on and thus they must be liable if something happens.

SGray
Jan. 22, 2004, 12:43 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scrubs:
..... The testing IS moving in the right direction, I'll give it that, but like others said, the penalties need to be much stiffer AND the OWNERS MUST BE LIABLE. If someone even STEALS my car, I have responsibility for it, let alone if I ALLOW someone to operate it. There shold be no difference in someone managing / riding your horse. Maybe if there was some resposibility put on these owners, they would not tolerate trainers behaviours or a groom's "mistakes". I can't imagine that an owner would keep a string of horses with a trainer if the owner and his/her horses were banned from showing and fined 5 or 6 figures. The buck has to stop with the person who carries the wallet, otherwise you can keep pointing the finger down the line. This reminds me of an article I read in PH (sorry Coth) about Geoff TEal not even allowing an owner at the horse's vet check - huh???? But that is the atmosphere we have been led into at the top of the horse sow world. Owners must take responisbility for what goes on and thus they must be liable if something happens.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

good points scrubs - so glad you've started posting

"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it," --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.

lauriep
Jan. 22, 2004, 12:51 PM
Medicine trunks are LEGAL at shows.

Certain medications and dosages are LEGAL at shows.

Suspensions affect presence on the SHOW GROUNDS, so no one is "bucking the system" by operating off grounds.

If these punishments seem obscene to you, then CHANGE them! If you really think zero tolerance will get the bad guys, GOOD LUCK!!

Unless you start bringing in regular law enforcement (not a good idea, nor would they probably be willing), you can't patrol the whole world. More stringent penalties for REPEATED abuses is the way to go, if you really want to remove the true offenders.

As much as you don't like it, can't imagine it, and think it is wrong, the FACT is that many of the owners never see their horses, never see the bills (that is what bookkeepers are for) and never want to be more involved. And that is not wrong. Going after the owners would end up being detrimental to the sport, and you can't MAKE someone care more about their animals. Aside from the fact that they think they ARE doing right by their horses by putting them in the barns that they do.

Laurie

PaintedWhisper
Jan. 22, 2004, 12:56 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Silk:


Would anyone here actually hunt their hunter? I had a medium pony that foxhunted with myopia and Tanheath as a kid -- AND qualified for pony fineal!! Anyone?? Can any ponyjock of today say that about their pony?

[QUOTE]
I leased a pony a few years back that had led a few foxhunts at her previous barn, owner of the barn had a bad fall a few years before and pretty much would only trust this pony to hunt. Really cool pony http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

-Emily-
"Nothing Takes the taste out of peanut butter quite like unrequited love"-Charlie Brown
http://community.webshots.com/user/uvgot2whisper

Silver Bells
Jan. 22, 2004, 01:15 PM
SCRUBS, your post was right on the money! We all have variuos solutions that we would love to see implemented. However the cynics on this thread like LAURIEP, make it difficult!
We all know what goes on... If we see something first hand, not suspect something, we as members should have the option to bring this behavior the the stewards for investigation. Hopefully politics will not play a part in the outcome.

LH
Jan. 22, 2004, 01:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Medicine trunks are LEGAL at shows.

Certain medications and dosages are LEGAL at shows.

Suspensions affect presence on the SHOW GROUNDS, so no one is "bucking the system" by operating off grounds.

If these punishments seem obscene to you, then CHANGE them! If you really think zero tolerance will get the bad guys, GOOD LUCK!!

Unless you start bringing in regular law enforcement (not a good idea, nor would they probably be willing), you can't patrol the whole world. More stringent penalties for REPEATED abuses is the way to go, if you really want to remove the true offenders.


Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I have posted the same comments on other threads


I think it is important that some of you stop using the word "drugging" in referring to legal, proper, beneficial medications.


If you don't like the rules, stop whining about them and change them. If you feel a trainer is unethical, stop training with him/her. If you don't know what the he&& a "medication trunk" is, then don't criticize it. I have a locked box in which I store NSAIDS and other medications that are completely legal and appropriate if used properly, and I also keep Ace and stronger tranquilizers in case of an emergency and I need to sedate a panicked (injured?) horse. I think that if you haul, horse show, etc. WITHOUT those medications you could have an inhumane situation. Think about it. NO, I don't show on them, I stick very carefully within the rules, and I am proactive in doing what I can for the well-being and comfort of my horses. In that same medications trunk I have needles, syringes, alcohol pads, and other first aid amenities -- how many of you have a stocked first aid kit at the ready? And I keep my medication case locked at all times, with a combination lock so that I can open it if I need emergency medications.

Don't judge another person unless you know and understand what they are saying.

I think there are posters on this thread just waiting to pounce . . . trolls???

Midge
Jan. 22, 2004, 01:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk: Dont tell me I can ride a 15.2 hand horse because to find one that has that step would be prohibitively expensive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wish they were prohibitively expensive. I just free leased mine. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Midge
Jan. 22, 2004, 01:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:
Would anyone here actually hunt their hunter? I had a medium pony that foxhunted with myopia and Tanheath as a kid -- AND qualified for pony fineal!! Anyone?? Can any ponyjock of today say that about their pony?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My new horse hunts. In Southern Pines, you can see any number of hunters and jumpers in the field. Good ones, too.

shade
Jan. 22, 2004, 01:37 PM
I've been lurking around reading both threads on the suspension/drugging/dead horse walking/
issue and need to chime in and yes I have my flame suit on...I worked for a junior that rode with a BNT wayy back in the 80's. they were doing the SAME thing with the hunters back then..LTD/LTQ and whatever was the untestable drug of the day..you always knew when the "trainers had found a new drug as the LTD?LTQ would stop...really sad..so in what way have the hunters way of going changed in 20 od yrs since they were cheating back then to get a super quiet robot round..seems the same to me..also trainers have been using quieting drugs for eons..i worked for a BNR whose wife's hunter was now a broadmare..(around -1973) I asked why..her ans...they have a test for ACE!!!so folks this is NOTHING new and I'm sad to say will probably always be around unless they get much tougher on the penalties...and just to touch on the meds trunk...the barn med trunk had LOTS more "stuff" than 1st aid stuff..it really was sickening how much drugs they carried...flame away

Smiles
Jan. 22, 2004, 02:08 PM
[quote]
Ridin'Fool: {Wow! I think I worked for the same BNT, although mine went to Indio. I refused to learn how to give an IV shot for the very reason! Said BNT was/ is very tight with a familiar vet many of see us at AA midwest shows.}

Would the nick name of this bnt happen to be the chemist???

Just another day!!!

Black Market Radio
Jan. 22, 2004, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rider11:
Okay, I will state this for the last time...At no time did I say I was pro-drugging. I do not think you have to drug horses (the many unauthorized dismounts I have taken prove it) and I do not think that kids should have drugged horses to replace safe ones.

I point of my post was that animal welfare and human welfare are not on the same level. I love my animals more than anything, but they are not children. No one on this board will agree with me, but isn't that what this is for - to disagree. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I DO agree with you that human welfare is not on the same level as animal welfare. My human kids come first.

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
I'm a Lumberjack and I'm Ok

Sam Iam
Jan. 22, 2004, 02:45 PM
I agree, too. My human kids come first, as is evidenced by the fact that I'm at the barn only two days a week. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Beezer
Jan. 22, 2004, 03:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rider11:
However, on NO level can you equate child abuse to giving a horse medication. Illegal yes, but definately not the same results. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many of us can and DO, rider11. Perhaps not directly equate it, but frankly, I am absolutely, 100% equally appalled by the abuse of animals (be it drug or other) and the abuse of a child.

Both are essentially helpless creatures dependent on their caretakers to provide them everything they need to survive and thrive in this world. Those who abuse that fundamental trust are beneath contempt.

If you have a different opinion, eh, oh well. We probably both sleep well at night. But again, I will say that, in my personal opinion, giving money to anyone who has been suspended for drugging horses or worse, is tantamount to excusing someone who abuses a child because, hey, they've always been nice to me.

Then again, I refuse to (knowingly) do business with anyone who hires illegal immigrants and then complains about the drain they cause on the economy. But that's a whole 'nother debate. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

***** Currently assigned to the mouth-gaping, lip-flapping, head-twisting, wood-chewing, boot-shredding phase of baby greenie ownership! *****

[This message was edited by Beezer on Jan. 22, 2004 at 06:50 PM.]

scrubs
Jan. 22, 2004, 04:05 PM
Laurie - You're right zero tolerance probably will not get all the bad guys and may be a pie in the sky - but, the frustration level with people is such that it is an option I think we must look at. As far as the med trunks go - I am not talking an emergency kit which is something I would never go without - I am talking about traveling pharmacies and I am NOT exaggerating. As for the owners, I agree it is NOT illegal for them to never look at their horses nor can we force them to care - BUT, we CAN force them to "play by the rules. If I hire someone to house sit for a vacation home, does that give them permission to do something illegal in that house?? No, I have control over the house and I bet your boots if someting happened, my home owners insurance will come after me, not after the person house sitting. If my child is at summer camp and I don't see them for 2 or 3 months, is it OK for the person running the camp to give my kids illegal drugs or ask them to shop lift?? NO. If I have a driver for my car and he drinks and kills someone - guess what - I still have some responisibility - I bet there would be a civil suit against me b/c it was MY car and I hired the person. Is it MY responsibility to make sure I find a house sitter, car driver and camp counselor who WILL NOT do these illegal things - YES.(I know the camp thing is far fetched but really, you are leaving something you own in someone's hands - that does not give them the ability to do something illegal and saying "I didn't know" just doesn't cut it as an owner. You still must be responsible and the owners should be held as such - just as much as the trainers if not more. people are breaking the rules, getting around it and being allowed to get around it in a very lucrative way by those who turn a blind eye. Look at these boards and the input people have given to our governing body - WE DO WANT CHANGE - our USEF is NOT responding harsh enough. We aren't whinning, we are writing letters, attending meetings, making phone calls - there IS a difference, jsut not enough yet and I think until the USEF DOES take a hard line approach - it won't get serious enough to make the changes that are neccessary and truely entrenched (as stated by teh poster who worked in the 80's) in our horse show environment. We need an ENRON-esc shake up!

CBoylen
Jan. 22, 2004, 04:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scrubs:
C Boylen: Med TRUNKS - I know, I've SEEN them - cracks me up you even have to use such a term. Other than an emergency first aid kit, why the HELL does anyone need a MED TRUNK at a horse show???!! Many of these are bigger than the tack trunks people bring to the shows - its obvious you had one!! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Huh. I thought people had med trunks in order to have a place to conveniently keep any medication that may or may not be needed in emergency or non-emergency situations. I didn't realise that organization automatically led to presumed guilt. If I didn't have a med trunk, what exactly would I lock? Not to quibble over minor points, but you'll notice I said it was the neighbor's med trunk that got raided. I'll admit we were stupid leaving expensive medication in the fridge, but frankly sometimes we make mistakes. When I want to hire a new barn manager I guess I should interview all the exceptional people from this board.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And for god sakes, just lock you trucnks and tack rooms, hire somebody to watch your horses, you are very quick to place the blame of the "odd ball" possibilities and not looking at the obvious. Ever heard of the idea that the simplist answer is probably the truth - rather than all these poor saps being targeted by night time, terroist-type horse-druggers and completely confused grooms and feed personnel - perhaps you are trying to explain away the obvious...people are CHEATING AND BREAKING THE RULES, Period. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Sure, some people cheat. Some people do not. Some people make mistakes, and some people carry legal medication in their med trunks. I don't presume to tell the difference on the basis of a casual acquaintance, and I certainly don't presume to comment on other people's programs without any acquaintance at all. The very important horses do have personal night watchmen. Not all of us can justify that expense for each and every horse.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And, many of us DO understand the SCOPE of a big H/J show (we're not all bumpkins as you would like to believe). And many of us are willing to pay the price for a level playing field. If every placed horse in a class was tested plus a handfull of random horses in each class, this wouldn't be an issue like it is now. Have mobile units at every show and a USEF vet. Take duplicate smaples in case there is a dispute and one set can be sent to a better lab. I'll happily, joyfully, willingly PAY for it with my dues - I'd rather pay more for that than paying dues and walking down showbarn aisles full of med trunks and knowing damned well nothing is done about it. The testing IS moving in the right direction, I'll give it that, but like others said, the penalties need to be much stiffer AND the OWNERS MUST BE LIABLE.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Fabulous. Have at it. I'm a rider, not a politician. I know the rules and I play by them. If you want to change them, go ahead. I wish you luck convincing people to part with their money and educating owners to the point where there are more that are capable of acting in the manner in which you think they ought.
Also, I have never maligned anyone's understanding unless it was to point out an inconsistency or an issue that I felt hadn't been fully thought out while considering all the facts. If you want to call people bumpkins, that's fine, but please do not put words in my mouth.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

pwynnnorman
Jan. 22, 2004, 04:46 PM
(sigh)

I think what shocks one is that they are "trunks" now. They used to be just "kits." Pretty soon, the big barns will be setting up entire "labs."

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Jan. 22, 2004, 05:15 PM
Unfortunately whether we like it or not, our society was built on the Bill of Rights. This is supposedly is a democratic society. You need proof person a) has done something illegal. Bringing to a stewards attention does what? They already are expected to do a great many jobs. None of the stewards I have met would even consider that!

Something alone the lines of zero tolerance was already brought to the table back when the Drugs & Meds committee was first formed. To say it was not thought of highly is putting it mildly. The noise could be heard in Europe. So, what's needed is stronger legislation of the drug rules. This means change, and has to be done within our org. confines.

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 22, 2004, 05:36 PM
I do have to say here, that - although I've spoken extensively about disagreeing with the drugging -- I do NOT haul to shows without a dose of banamine and one of Ace with me. I've had the "joy" of breaking down with a horse-trailer on i95 and while we got lucky and the horse didn't freak out while waiting on the merge strip (honestly), it scared the heck out of me.

So, I bring those two drugs with me. I'd far rather be able to help a horse in need immediately if necessary.

BUT...the same doses have gone back and forth for so long I just swapped them with my vet before they expired. So it's not about drug abuse, but about safety. However, if we had 20 horses, that might require a trunk for safety.

Ghazzu
Jan. 22, 2004, 07:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
I do have to say here, that - although I've spoken extensively about disagreeing with the drugging -- I do NOT haul to shows without a dose of banamine and one of Ace with me. I've had the "joy" of breaking down with a horse-trailer on i95 and while we got lucky and the horse didn't freak out while waiting on the merge strip (honestly), it scared the heck out of me.

So, I bring those two drugs with me. I'd far rather be able to help a horse in need immediately if necessary.

.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actuallly, it is a bad idea to give ace to a horse that is upset. It makes them worse quite frequently.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:02 PM
Good point, Ghazzu, and it is a risk. But the risk of using something like Rompun, where they can come out of it and get aggressive, or valium - which is a controlled substance for people, too - where they can get real dopey, is one of the reasons why I've got Ace. The idea is that IF there's a breakdown and you know you need to so something that might become worrying, adminster the Ace first. But I'd welcome a better option???

needtosaysomething
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
I am sorry, but I can't call a person a "trainer" if they have to drug or LTD a horse in order for the rider to be able to ride it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

devildog87 is close to defining the difference between a self-titled "trainer" and a true "horseman".

Tiramit
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:49 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:

Actuallly, it is a bad idea to give ace to a horse that is upset. It makes them worse quite frequently.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm really glad you posted that because that has been my experience as well (nice to hear it from a vet).

.................................................. .................................................. ......
"Whether you think you can or think you can't - you are right." -Henry Ford

bigbay
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:50 PM
Wow, Lord Helpus's post about the catch rider reminded me of Jean Slaughter Doty's book "The Monday Horses." Good read, BTW, for anyone who hasn't. That book was published in 1978, but could've been written last month. Obviously, this has been an issue for a long time.

I know my own personal feelings on the topic. Certain meds are given at home, once in a blue moon, when prescribed by a vet (such as dex for hives), or when their use obviously benefits the horse (a little bute after a foxhunt, some ace for a horse getting his first turnout after stall rest). Okay, I also admit to occasionally administering drugs when they will benefit me, like Rompun to clean a sheath, or ace when I have to finally get on that horse that's been on stall rest and turnout. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I would never dream of using these meds at a show, mostly because to me, a show is exactly that- a show. A chance for my horse and I give our best possible performance and "show" what we have attained from all those hours of schooling. I don't want to wonder if the reason my horse finally jumped that scary liverpool was because I'd done my job right as a trainer/rider, or if that dex he had for hives the day before made him less spooky. If my horse isn't ready to show without meds in him, we stay home. Even bute is only given after we leave the show, never before one, to help him feel better on his day off tomorrow- like ibuprofen after a basketball game for me.

But that's just me. I've never tried to compete 32 weeks out of the year (much as I really would've liked to, especially as a junior!). I've never tried to make a living helping other people do it either. The rules regarding legal and illegal drugs are in place because knowledgable horse people like yourselves decided it was prudent to allow X amount of X substance, when trying to balance the welfare of the animals and those making a living at it. If you don't like the rules, and you don't think X amount of substance X is prudent, change it! Get thee to Colorado next year! But until then, as one poster said, she knows the rules and she plays by them. Doesn't matter if she has a med trunk the size of a walk-in freezer.

Those who know the rules and break them or deliberately try to find a way around them, however are an entirely different matter. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif IMHO, any viable solution has to be two-pronged: it first has to hurt the offender in many ways- pocketbook, convenience, pride, and reputation as well as watching carefully for repeat offenses. But the broader solution has to address why people drug in the first place, and that requires a good hard look at judging standards and the show system as a whole.

"Today I will ask so much of her, ask her to leave her equine world and join mine. And if I am very good today- if I am a true horsewoman- she will be happy that I pulled her away from her green grass, her friends, and everything that makes her life happy and secure." - Bo Derek

bigbay
Jan. 22, 2004, 08:54 PM
One a side note, it's very interesting how many "greenies" and lurkers these threads have drawn out of the woodwork. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"Today I will ask so much of her, ask her to leave her equine world and join mine. And if I am very good today- if I am a true horsewoman- she will be happy that I pulled her away from her green grass, her friends, and everything that makes her life happy and secure." - Bo Derek

Court@HJ-OH
Jan. 22, 2004, 09:26 PM
How many emergency meds are there that a non-vet should be administering to require a med trunk and not a tupperware dish? Surely it is not all gauze and duct tape.

**Courtney**

bigbay
Jan. 22, 2004, 09:37 PM
I have no idea either, Court. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif I'm just saying that if they're obeying the rules that have been set (and they'll gladly open up that trunk without shame to show you everything in there is legal), then you're wandering into the grey area of imposing your morals on another law-abiding citizen.

If you think the rules are too lax, or if the show system is set up so that in order to make a living you have to be one the road 3/4 of the year (and stock up on all your meds for 20-30 horses beforehand...), or if being on the road 3/4 of the year is what's causing the horses to need those meds, I say, work to change it.

"Today I will ask so much of her, ask her to leave her equine world and join mine. And if I am very good today- if I am a true horsewoman- she will be happy that I pulled her away from her green grass, her friends, and everything that makes her life happy and secure." - Bo Derek

wingedflutist
Jan. 23, 2004, 04:03 AM
In response to all of the comments, and coming from the perspective of a trainer that also still rides and shows - I don't take my students or horses to shows unless they are capable of "handling" it. And generally speaking, the "accepted" rule of thumb for those of us that "play fair" is that drugs are not supposed to be used in the show arena. Yes people use them to trailer a horse or for schooling purposes, but not in the show arena.

There used to be quite a bit more testing than there is these days - maybe the show circuits need to go back to doing that again.

At any rate, most of us like a level playing field - and those that don't the showing community has it's own way of dealing with those people - we always have, we always will. Judges hear of these things as well and react accordingly.

I've always know the showing circuit to be a fairly tight nit community, and yes the "bad" trainers are out there, but if you watch results on a whole - once it's "out" so to speak that a trainer drugs their horses, they usually don't do so well. It carries a stigma, and that stigma usually doesn't disapate overnight.

In an industry where reputation is sometimes of more value than just about anything, most of us strive to keep our necks out of the chopping blocks.

As for the person who questions the abilities of the junior rider, there are actually two ways to look at the situation. Is this a good rider on a troubled horse, or is this a mediocre rider on a drugged horse? In these situations, most of the time the rider is generally separated from the horse and required to ride another mount to test their abilities - or at least that's what's supposed to happen. All you can do is watch and see what happens.

Silk
Jan. 23, 2004, 04:17 AM
It seems to me that if a horse needs that much (as to fit in a trunk), legal or not, perhaps you are asking too much of it? Perhaps part of the problem is the fat that these horses are pounded on, class after class of big fences, week after week?? I mean, really....my horses do not hav a "trunk" of anything other than clothes because I like pony clothes. Mine seem to get along just fine on food, water, and love. The amount of bute I use in a year could fit in a thimble.

Of course, my ponies dont have giant strides, lope dopily around a course and have a huge jump that pops me out of the tack.

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

DMK
Jan. 23, 2004, 04:41 AM
First off, the meds trunks I have seen are not eaxtly brimming to the top with bottles of injectable drugs, illegal or otherwise.

But if you have 20 plus horses and you routinely give them legend as part of their performance routine (this is more than one time a month for a lot of upper level horses), you might note that this is a LOT of legend, even if it does come in a small box. And I don't know about you, but I try to keep a 6 month supply on hand (OK, for me that's 3 bottle, but you get my drift ;0 ).

Second, those boxes of conquer tend to fill up a lot of space.

Third, if you are giving bute paste, it ain't exactly a dainty way to store 10 USEF legal doses. (yes, you can rail against the rule that allows giving bute, but until that rule is changed why waste your breath about a trainer who follows the rule?)

Fourth, I am pretty sure they don't buy syringes or needles in singles. Hell, even I buy 'em by the box. Again, if you have a box of 12 and 3cc syringes, it takes up a lot of room. And of course you end up with a box of 20cc, because even though you dont' use it, as sure as the sun rises inthe east, you end up with some horse under vet care that needs a 15 cc shot, and while I love my vets dearly, I try to have that stuff on hand, because they charge a lot for one of those syringes!

And if you are like me, you end up with various drugs and vitamins that a vet recommended for a horse along the way. Estradiol cypoate for stifles, b-plex for this horse, caco-liv for another one, progesterone for that one and so on.

And then I am sure they have on hand several bottle of vials of robaxin and banamine. These are just drugs that get used a lot and are legal.

And of course you have on hand ace and dormosedan, because most every large outfit does have these and need them outside a showing mode. And when you are at a large show like WEF you do tend to have horses on the grounds that are not showing or horses that were showing and got hurt, ill, whatever.

I don't take my "meds trunk" to shows, but at any given time it contains 3 boxes of syringes, 3 boxes of needles, conquer, legend, progesterone, banamine, ace, bute, robaxin and estradiol cypoate. It's not whats in the trunk, it's how you use them that makes the difference.

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

Silver Bells
Jan. 23, 2004, 05:24 AM
I agree with DMK. My horse receives adequan, esterone, legend, vitamins etc... all of which are legal. I too buy in large supply, and store them in a seperate med trunk at home, as well as at the shows.
The absence of med trunks is not the issue, as stated time & again. It should be the adsence of trainers who disregard rules.

Flash44
Jan. 23, 2004, 06:15 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

It's not whats in the trunk, it's how you use them that makes the difference.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif sorry.

lauriep
Jan. 23, 2004, 06:22 AM
Cynical, perhaps, but actually merely a realist who refuses to stand in judgement of people when I do not know all the facts, or know these people well and know they don't deserve the treatment they are getting here, or don't know them at all and so would NEVER presume to pass judgement on them.

Medicine TRUNKS existed 25 years ago, so I guess you'd have to go back further than that to find the "kits" you allude to.

Debate this to death as you always do; it will solve nothing here except give the trolls fodder and give an unnecessary black eye to the sport. Why you feel the need to air our dirty laundry on a public BB to the extent that you do is beyond me, especially when you have no idea who is reading, and it will do ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD!

One more time: change the rules if you don't like them, do the best you can PERSONALLY for your horses, and leave off the judgement calls on how others should care for theirs.

Oh, and one more thing. Even if you personally watch a drug deal go down on the streets, go to the police and take them directly to the dealer's house, they will not make an arrest until they gather evidence, make a buy through an informant, and build a case. So if you think just going to the steward will accomplish what you want, think again. That is WAY too slippery a slope for any organization with any sense to start to go down.


Laurie

DMK
Jan. 23, 2004, 06:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

It's not whats in the trunk, it's how you use them that makes the difference.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif sorry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was meant to refer to the "legal" side of the street, but I'll crawl down there in the gutter with you to share a good laugh. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

War Admiral
Jan. 23, 2004, 06:40 AM
Why do you think the "black eye to the sport" is unnecessary??

I totally understand that the latest round of suspensions really, truly, IS "business as usual" and that nothing has changed in the last 30-40 years. But that doesn't make it right, and I think it's time we stomped our feet and got ALL this cr*p stopped once and for all.

The horses have no voices. The humans responsible for those horses do. Let's use them.

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Jan. 23, 2004, 06:51 AM
The cries of outrage War Admiral, have been going on longer than most of us have been alive on these boards. You think it will stop? We haven't been able to stop human drug abuse in the past 75 yrs. Why do you think we can stop this now?

Now to throw a real rock into this, do you really think the pharmaceutical houses want to see this stopped, human or horse? Billions of dollars are at stake. As long as there's $$$'s involved, it will never end!

I'm not giving in. I see things in a broader way. I don't believe in drugging a horse. There are posters here who rail against abuse. But then post their maintenance programs, which involve drugs. See, this is a very thin line we all walk.

lauriep
Jan. 23, 2004, 07:02 AM
WA, I meant that airing it out here, in public internet land, is an unneccesary advertisement to god knows who about the problems of our sport. And god knows who may be potential sponsors, people who want to come spectate, people who want to move up to the higher levels.

And the FACT is that the suspensions are a very small percentage of the sport's many trainers, most of whom are good at what they do. This sort of bashing/discussion gives the impression that the whole sport is involved in ILLEGAL drugging. Not a true picture.

Exactly, radio talk.

Laurie

SGray
Jan. 23, 2004, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
......Debate this to death as you always do; it will solve nothing here except give the trolls fodder and give an unnecessary black eye to the sport. Why you feel the need to air our dirty laundry on a public BB to the extent that you do is beyond me, especially when you have no idea who is reading, and it will do ABSOLUTELY NO GOOD!.....
Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ahhh yes - better to ignore all the suspensions - better to pretend it doesn't happen.......

"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it," --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.

MHM
Jan. 23, 2004, 07:37 AM
Well said C. Boylen, DMK, LaurieP.

And C. Boylen- nice to meet you in person. Congrats on your season so far! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

tardy
Jan. 23, 2004, 07:37 AM
Laurie, I have to agree with you. These threads fulfilled their purpose days ago. Now they are anything from repetitive to hysterical with a few trolls in between.
On the bright side, I don't believe many 'non horsey' people read these boards.

Hopeful Hunter
Jan. 23, 2004, 07:56 AM
OK...to play devil's advocate...

Where SHOULD we discuss these suspensions and the concerns they bring up? At the shows? Well...not everyone GOES to all or even most or maybe even ANY of the rated shows, but that doesn't mean they won't or don't care. At the barn? With whom -- the people trying to spin their colleagues suspensions?

There is a root problem in equestrian sports of access to information and communication. It is HARD to know what's going on, what's new, who's training in a new way, etc. if you're not on site or with a BNT. And I'm not talking about your published materials -- I get reams of equestrian publications but have learned much more, good, bad and questionable, on the boards about many topics.

Take suspensions -- how do you know WHY someone was set down, or if they were set down in the past and for what reason? You have to ASK SOMEONE. And if you're looking and not already in a barn/situation where people are in the know, where do you ask?

The horse world is a rather closed society, and it's one that's hard to break into in some ways. Once in, it's very welcoming, but sometimes the simple task of finding a tack shop (what do you look under in the yellow pages, if they're listed? Think from a total novice POV here...) or a lesson barn isn't easy. When you start talking about technical issues of drugs and meds...where does one go?

There is certainly a valid concern that these discussions could be used "against" the industry. BUT...if that's the case, maybe we should consider that and BE PREPARED to demonstrage what we are doing to prevent/police this! Show that we take the bad apples seriously through REAL fines, REAL suspensions, etc...

Something to think about...

Silver Bells
Jan. 23, 2004, 08:21 AM
The sponsors aren't going anywhere... Several are Pharmacuetical Firms that benefit by all the "so called" drug use. Bayer for instance, promotes Legend.
The other sponsors are industry related. And if a "potential whatever" is reading this BB, so be it! It is REALITY!

Heather Dobbs
Jan. 23, 2004, 09:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Cynical, perhaps, but actually merely a realist who refuses to stand in judgement of people when I do not know all the facts, or know these people well and know they don't deserve the treatment they are getting here, or don't know them at all and so would NEVER presume to pass judgement on them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"My dreams, they aren't as empty, as my conscience seems to be..."

SueL
Jan. 23, 2004, 09:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
OK...to play devil's advocate...

Where SHOULD we discuss these suspensions and the concerns they bring up? At the shows? Well...not everyone GOES to all or even most or maybe even ANY of the rated shows, but that doesn't mean they won't or don't care. At the barn? With whom -- the people trying to spin their colleagues suspensions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The problem with a lot of this discussion is that apart from that which as been published in the USEF's official publiccation is pure speculation. We don't know the levels that were tested, the testimony at the hearings or anything else. In that sense, the discussion on this and other boards is not any different than that discussion we might engage in at the shows or at the barns.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There is a root problem in equestrian sports of access to information and communication. It is HARD to know what's going on, what's new, who's training in a new way, etc. if you're not on site or with a BNT. And I'm not talking about your published materials -- I get reams of equestrian publications but have learned much more, good, bad and questionable, on the boards about many topics. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now this I just do not agree with. I have learned and still learn a LOT from simply observing at the bigger shows. It costs nothing to stand and watch those at the top of the game school and coach horses and riders in warmups etc. This is not to disparage the boards but they are certainly not the only fountain of knowledge out there!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Take suspensions -- how do you know WHY someone was set down, or if they were set down in the past and for what reason? You have to ASK SOMEONE. And if you're looking and not already in a barn/situation where people are in the know, where do you ask? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The reasons for the suspensions are published in the Notice of Penalty in the official publication of the USEF. Now, it is true that you have to be a member to get this publication. There are at least two ways to make this information more accessible - make the magazine available by subscription to non-members and publish the suspensions on the website. However, to get anything done in terms of change, you really have to be a member - which is one of the reasons I believe those who show locally do have a reason to join. If you want to see changes at the top you need to be able to have a voice.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>When you start talking about technical issues of drugs and meds...where does one go?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To your vet, a referral from your vet, references like Dr. Kellon's book and to the D&M committee. Once you have that knowledge then you are able to sort the wheat from the chaff on the boards. IMO.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>There is certainly a valid concern that these discussions could be used "against" the industry. BUT...if that's the case, maybe we should consider that and BE PREPARED to demonstrage what we are doing to prevent/police this! Show that we take the bad apples seriously through REAL fines, REAL suspensions, etc...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The emails that were sent in were a nice start. Now those who care about it need to get more involved. Maybe that means local level riders joining USEF and attending conventions and zone meetings? I don't know. I do know that sometimes it takes a lot of voices shouting for the little guy to get heard. As long as the discussions are confined to the insular society of the bb with those of like mind agreeing with one another that there is a problem, there ain't nothin' ever gonna change http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Sue L

Coreene
Jan. 23, 2004, 10:21 AM
Well, if nothing else, this thread has shown me who here I would invite to my house and who here I would have eff all to do with. And one dear pal with whom I will agree to disagree.

lauriep
Jan. 23, 2004, 10:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:

Where SHOULD we discuss these suspensions and the concerns they bring up? At the shows? Well...not everyone GOES to all or even most or maybe even ANY of the rated shows, but that doesn't mean they won't or don't care. At the barn? With whom -- the people trying to spin their colleagues suspensions?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anywhere but here. This board consists of a majority of young/new/inexperienced/non-h/j people who take EVERY WORD of what is said by those they CONSIDER "in the know" as gospel, even when it is far from gospel, and then get on the coattails of these people without EVER KNOWING THE FACTS.

Healthy discussion between people who are interested in making changes to the system, about how to go about it, what to propose, etc. is great and productive. The blanket tarring and feathering of people you have never met in your life, because of a few lines in a magazine, when you have no clue what the rest of this person's career/life involves is just plain wrong.

And no, SGray, nowhere did I say ignore or pretend it doesn't happen. I said do something useful about it in a venue that will actually DO something constructive.

I hate it when my posts are twisted in this way...Read for comprehension, please.


Laurie

cidbad
Jan. 23, 2004, 10:59 AM
I don't know of any large show barn that does not travel without a medicine trunk. It holds everything one might need in an emergency to everyday use. This includes vet wrap to sheet cotton to bute, robaxin, legend,adaquan and tranqs. When you have 20+ horses on the road all of the time you need a medicine trunk. It doesn't mean all of these people are giving illegal meds, they are treating athletes like they need to be treated. Sometimes with just an asprin as i'm sure many of you have taken. Not every trainer uses the meds as they should. For all of you that have your horses at home and go to a horse show you shouldn't need a medicine trunk. But for barns that are responsible for a large quanity of horses they need one. Usually because they order from catalogs in quanities so they are not buying daily or weekly. This saves for the farm and for the client which does not have to purchase a bottle of banamine when there horse only needs a 12cc dose. I agree 100% with Lauriep if you want to do something about it do it, stop whining about something you are not involved in or have no real knowledge of. Also all of you know it all people why don't you just state the name of the people you are referring to. I am tired of hearing BNT, use a name and a specific case that you know first hand about before you start stating all you know. Trainers will make money no matter what the situation. If you want to take what you read and run with it go ahead. Most stories do not have all of the facts and usually have incorrect information. If you like a trainer and they have had a problem then ask them. If you are happy with the answer then ride with them if not it is a free country ride with someone else. Don't critize customers you do not know. Maybe they have talked with the trainer and are satisfied with them. YOU JUST DON'T KNOW!

Weatherford
Jan. 23, 2004, 11:16 AM
AH, it still comes down to three things:

1) CHANGE THE RULES - tighten the allowable drug use (or not depending on your perspective http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

2) CHANGE THE JUDGINE - make it more open. Make it more important to recognize brilliance and jumping ability (and other factors depending on the division) than shaking a head in the corner.

3) CHANGE THE PUNISHMENTS - Make the punishments fit the crimes - that is, give them some UMPH - A trainer maked $25,000-$30,000 PER HORSE per FLorida circuit, is NOT going to particularly affected by a 30 day (not all of FL, mind you!) suspension, and a $3,000-$5,000 fine. THAT IS POCKET CHANGE!

SO - we HAVE started the emails (keep them going and as I have said before, it is CRITICAL that ALL sides be heard!) BUT

WHO is going to WRITE the rule changes? WHO is going to talk to John Lengel or the head of the hearing committee about this, and to ASK for HELP writing the rule changes? And who is going to suggest that these be IMMEDIATE / ExComm changes?

And once that person has that started, then the rest of us need to GET BACK ON THE BANDWAGON and see the changes through!

(By the way, my suggestions and explanations of a new judging system for Hunters is on the other drug thread - if you want, I could pull it out and consolidate it for people)

Time to get radical again, people! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Beethoven
Jan. 23, 2004, 11:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MellowM:
[QUOTE]
For example, one particular suspended BNT allowed a Vet at a horse show to administer meds to a horse in his care due to illness. The vet advised waiting 45 days before showing this horse because the meds would test positive. This BNT waited 50+ days to show the horse who then tested positive at that show.
QUOTE]

Oh gosh, that just seems to be everyone's story http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Sorry, but I think that is a load of crap.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is actually what happened....

~Jenna & Beethoven~
http://community.webshots.com/user/jlm179

Ghazzu
Jan. 23, 2004, 12:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beethoven:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MellowM:
[QUOTE]
For example, one particular suspended BNT allowed a Vet at a horse show to administer meds to a horse in his care due to illness. The vet advised waiting 45 days before showing this horse because the meds would test positive. This BNT waited 50+ days to show the horse who then tested positive at that show.
QUOTE]

Oh gosh, that just seems to be everyone's story http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Sorry, but I think that is a load of crap.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


That is actually what happened....

~Jenna & Beethoven~
http://community.webshots.com/user/jlm179<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


another possibility is that the same drug given by the vet at the show was given again at a leter date.
I'm curious--since you seem to be privy to the details--just what drug would a sick/injured horse *need* to be treated with that would test for that long?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Ridin' Fool
Jan. 23, 2004, 01:39 PM
Smiles - I don't know if his nickname is "the Chemist" but he's one h*ll of a salesman! Every horse is "8 or 9 years old" and "completely sound".

Med trunks - oh brother, really blown this one out of proportion! I usually bring two horses to show and need a "trunk" for all the meds, which includes, banamine paste, bottle of robaxin, bottle of SMZ's, Betadine scrub, 5 cc syringe, rubber gloves, furazone sweat, saran wrap, paper bags and poultice, roll of cotton batting, tons of vetrap, scissors, tape, guaze pads... that LEGAL stuff takes up a lot of room and requires a separate mid-size trunk! Not a steamer trunk. It stays in my trailer, locked up! I've shown enough to know that if you don't expect to need something, you will!

Jake's Dad
Jan. 23, 2004, 04:19 PM
laurie p. very good and most are 12 years old ,...think about how well the show horses are taken care of at shows ...5 bales of shavings for a small horse under 16 hands, double stalls for the warm bloods, extra shavings ...out of a 7 day wk they work 3 days ...maybe 5 hrs total ...they cough, call the vet..they have it made...
my daughter and I will sometimes go out and look at horses on sale ads in the newspaper.
What we see is horrendous. Horses eating dog food, in junkyards, barbed wire, no water, no
grass, no fooling and you are all worried about horses being tranquilized to show. You should use your energy in cleaning up that kind of horse abuse, not the big name trainers.

MsHunter
Jan. 23, 2004, 04:39 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Actually Ghazzu, I pack a case of meds that goes to the shows also. This past year at Devon we "forgot" to take our kit/trunk/lab as it has been referred to on the boards. We were fortunate enough to have a very professional horseman/trainer/judge ASSIST us until the veterinarian could arrive and help us with a horse who was badly injured in one of Devons lovely stalls. In any case, my point is, my cocktail is one that is comprised of Rompum/Ace/Domosedan, I find it very effective on babies and I have yet to see an aggressive one coming out of it. This is my baby bodyclipping recipe if needed so I don't get kicked in the head. Of course we body clip a month before attending a show, so we are legal.
My point is sometimes these meds can be extremely useful during periods of PAIN from injury, or to prevent PAIN to the owner.

Owner/Trainer of http://www.geocities.com/plumstedequestrianctr/

Silver Bells
Jan. 23, 2004, 04:40 PM
JAKE'S DAD....
Abuse takes on many roles. Whether someone starves a horse, or whether someone drugs a horse merely to win in competition.
A starving horse has more of a chance, than the drugged horse being asked to jump around week after week. The BNT'S are just as guilty, if not more, since they are being paid to care for client's horses!
I cannot comprehend how you could even compare the two...

BLBGP
Jan. 23, 2004, 04:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Bells:
A starving horse has more of a chance, than the drugged horse being asked to jump around week after week. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Have you ever dealt with a horrifically starved horse? Or one with a gangrened cut on its leg that the owners never bothered to take care of? I've tried to stay clear of this thread and I certainly don't believe in illegally drugging horses to go to shows week in week out, but this line just struck me as a highlight to how absurd some statements have gotten on both sides of this fence on this thread. Yikes.

Silver Bells
Jan. 23, 2004, 04:50 PM
BLPGP Such Dramatics... there are gruesome outcomes to every abuse/injury case... Which are you referring to? No histrionics please...

BLBGP
Jan. 23, 2004, 04:58 PM
No worries, no histrionics here. Perhaps I used one too many eek icons. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif To my credit, I didn't use a single exclamation point. Just surprised to hear a starving horse has a better life.

DMK
Jan. 23, 2004, 05:19 PM
Yep, I have to say that the idea that a starved horse has a better shot of making it around a course than a "drugged" horse was news to me.

First off, I do agree you can't compare the resources used to address abuse with the resources used to regulate the issue of illegal performance enhancing drugs. The ASPCA is not the USEF and vice versa.

But you know what? If resources were limited and one and the same, I damn sure hope the mythical agency in question would dedicate a majority of their resources to helping the plight of starved animals.

It's also worth noting the phrase "drugged" is confusing as hell. Whenever I see it I wonder if this person

a) objects to the therapeutic provisions allowed in many USEF sancioned disciplines (eventing & dressage included);
b) does not KNOW that such things are permitted and thinks 1 gram of bute constitutes drugging;
c) is referring to an illegal performance enhancing drug that has a perfectly acceptable use that may involve jumping/training, just not in the show ring;
d) is referring to an illegal, unsafe, unethical drug that has no business being in a horse under almost any circumstances, but most certainly not when tack is involved; or
e) some combination of the above.

So I sort of think this unclarified use of the word "drugging" constitutes a degree of dramatics as well. Because if you are talking about "d" then you might have a point. But if you are talking about the current round of suspensions, they ain't a case of "d" as far as we know from everything published to date.

And just in case my feelings on the matter are not clear, I think those trainers absolutely deserved to be set down, and I wish the fines were bigger. But I recognize there might very well be a case where a horse under the exact same medication regime and is in training for perfectly valid reasons - but that horse should not be competing for the primary reason that he would have an artificial competetive edge.

To me it is hard to make an argument for abuse if the horse jumped around 8 fences at home and it is OK, but if he enters a show ring and jumps those exact same jumps it changes into abuse? But I'm open to explanations as to how such a scenario could be abuse...

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

Ghazzu
Jan. 23, 2004, 05:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Actually Ghazzu, I pack a case of meds ...my cocktail is one that is comprised of Rompum/Ace/Domosedan, I find it very effective on babies and I have yet to see an aggressive one coming out of it. This is my baby bodyclipping recipe if needed so I don't get kicked in the head. Of course we body clip a month before attending a show, so we are legal.
My point is sometimes these meds can be extremely useful during periods of PAIN from injury, or to prevent PAIN to the owner.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not arguing that--I'm sure you withdrew the animal from competition after it had been given those drugs, though, eh?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Silver Bells
Jan. 23, 2004, 05:41 PM
"Confusion" is a state of mind. "Abuse" can be determined in various ways. "Drugging" is just that "Drugging", whether it be for theraputic, training, or competative reasons.
It is what it is... Keep It Simple

tweedledee
Jan. 23, 2004, 05:43 PM
I dont post a lot but I was reading through this thread and something to say.

I agree that drugging a horse is very wrong, but the drugs that are being given are not making those amazing hunters or jumpers jump the way they do. The drugs might take the edge off, which i still dont agree with, but when you have a horse that jumps well than you have a horse that jumps well. Thats all there is to it.

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Jan. 23, 2004, 05:50 PM
Jake's Dad, are you sure that wasn't Animal Planet? That is very like a story of a starving horse, that the NY ASPCA rescued..

CBoylen
Jan. 23, 2004, 06:16 PM
Funny though, Silver Bells, how the term 'drugging' carries such a negative connotation and yet is so popular here to describe legal actions. I mean, it's so much more incendiary, isn't it, to say so-and-so drugs her horses, rather than to say so-and-so medicates with bute. To take it out of context, if I said "the baby-sitter drugged the toddler last night", are you more likely to think she gave it Tylenol for an earache or that she wanted a bit more uninterrupted TV time and overdosed it on nyquel?
I agree with DMK that I find the term "drugging" imprecise at best, and it doesn't adequately reflect either the poster's knowledge or personal belief system. I think we can all agree to be in favor of accuracy and clarity.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

becca's boys
Jan. 23, 2004, 06:24 PM
I agree...the blanket use of the term "drugging" on this board is annoying at best and incredibly misleading at worst. But...I have come to expect such drama and ignorance from many of the posters here. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Silver Bells
Jan. 24, 2004, 06:00 AM
Point taken C Boylen, I stand corrected. Moving forward, anyone who "medicates" with prohibited substances during competition deserves all that comes with getting caught. We can all agree on that.

Jake's Dad
Jan. 24, 2004, 07:05 AM
radio talk ...no it wasnt animal planet it was less then two mons. ago in fl...

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Jan. 24, 2004, 07:28 AM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif That's awful. Hopefully you were able to turn those people in to a local humane society to check it out...

keljo
Jan. 24, 2004, 09:28 AM
I've already put in my thoughts on the issue, but a few of the recent posts here rather bothered me. There seems to be an attitude by quite a few posters, on this and other threads, that if you're not "on the circuit" then your opinion of our sport is not worthwhile. I may not be at a "top show barn", but I think those of us who disagree with *overuse of medications* (is that a better term than *drugging*? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) deserve to have our opinions heard, too.

A few posters, who seem to think themselves way-more-important than the rest of us, have come across as condescending and dismissive if one disagrees with this blanket non-prescribed "medicating", or if one disagrees with the $50K minimum horse, or the "necessity" of TS breeches and eskadron boots. "We" don't compete at that "high of a level" therefore "we" "just don't understand what it takes". Well, "we" are also concerned about the direction OUR sport is taking, or continues to take!

I'm just rather put-off by the us/them attitude by some posters--and I find it mostly on the "upper" end of the spectrum.
Just my two cents...

lauriep
Jan. 24, 2004, 09:55 AM
The lack of clarity in the use of the term "drugging" is the same lack of clarity I have been trying to identify in the word "abuse." What constitutes this "abuse" as DMK so eloquently asked? These incendiary terms just have no place in a rational discussion of the recent round of suspensions. Once again, the information needed to make this sort of claim just ain't there, yet.

Laurie

woudn'tYOUliketoknow?
Jan. 24, 2004, 10:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MsHunter:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Actually Ghazzu, I pack a case of meds ...my cocktail is one that is comprised of Rompum/Ace/Domosedan, I find it very effective on babies and I have yet to see an aggressive one coming out of it. This is my baby bodyclipping recipe if needed so I don't get kicked in the head. Of course we body clip a month before attending a show, so we are legal.
My point is sometimes these meds can be extremely useful during periods of PAIN from injury, or to prevent PAIN to the owner.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm not arguing that--I'm sure you withdrew the animal from competition after it had been given those drugs, though, eh?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Good GRIEF. Why??? They're all LEGAL... (well aside from the tranq cocktail which she clearly said she gave a month in advance...)

lauriep
Jan. 24, 2004, 10:04 AM
keljo, no one that I know of is trying to belittle the opinions of people that do not attend the "big" shows.

But the FACT is, that until you have experienced this type of show, how the horses are managed there, both correctly/legally and incorrectly/illegaly, then you just don't have the same experience that people like C.Boylen, DMK, myself, and others have. It doesn't make "us" right and "you" wrong. It simply gives us the advantage of bringing firsthand experience in these situations to the table. And I think Chanda and DMK have done a remarkable job of doing just that.

I've been away too long to be up to date on the medications-du-jour. MY personal point is that none of us knows all the facts, the issue is not black and white (to me) and I hate to see people I know and don't know villified by people with too little knowledge of the situation. And I was PERSONALLY involved with the EXACT same scenario in 1978, so am well aware of the issues on both sides of the fence.

So please, don't take offense where none is intended.

Laurie

pwynnnorman
Jan. 24, 2004, 10:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A few posters, who seem to think themselves way-more-important than the rest of us, have come across as condescending and dismissive if one disagrees with this blanket non-prescribed "medicating", or if one disagrees with the $50K minimum horse, or the "necessity" of TS breeches and eskadron boots. "We" don't compete at that "high of a level" therefore "we" "just don't understand what it takes". Well, "we" are also concerned about the direction OUR sport is taking, or continues to take!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So true, Keljo. This is probably one of the few sports in the world where successful competitors don't actually welcome the public. Most of those who post in that vein are owners or riders, of course (I'm actually just giving back a bit of generalization since several imply that most of us who aren't fond of their attitudes are 12-year-old ignoramuses). I suspect that if more of them had to depend on HEALTHY growth in the sport, they'd sing a different song. These are profound issues with widespread impact on the direction and evolution of the sport...but, sadly, those who have the time and clout to bring about change seem to be those very people who are most content with the status quo.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

dogchushu
Jan. 24, 2004, 10:21 AM
lauriep,

I understand where you’re coming from, but I think you’re going about making your case the wrong way.

I work for a financial services company, specifically, one that specializes in mutual funds. Hooooo boy, do we have scandals a’ plenty in our industry! Like the horse industry, the problems range from the severe and criminal to those that are more matters of piss-poor judgment. Like you, it bothers me when those in the latter category are lumped in with those in the former. And it bothers me when people assume that all mutual fund companies are greedy, dishonest crooks (probably much like it bothers you that people are assuming all BNTs are dishonest, horse-druggers).

However, the bottom line is that our industry has lost customer confidence. As custodians of people’s money (much like many BNTs are custodians of customer’s horses) it is our responsibility to earn that confidence—it is not the customers’ responsibility to give it.

In my industry, There are many suggestions coming from outside designed to address the problems with mutual fund management. Many are wildly impractical. They won’t stop the bad guys and will unfairly burden the good guys (much like many suggestions for fixing the horse-drugging problem may not be practical either). However, getting indignant when presented with these suggestions only makes us look like bad guys who don’t want to change. Yes, we need to point out where the suggestions fail to fix the problem. But we can’t just say “sorry, that won’t work.” Instead, we need to come up with solutions ourselves and show that we are actively trying to fix things and ensure that they will never happen again

Getting angry with an upset public, telling them they have no idea what they’re talking about and just don’t understand how things work is not the way to do that. Rather, we need to patiently listen to their concerns and then address them in a way that builds their confidence back—a very tough task.

Like I said at the beginning of this War & Peace-sized post, I do understand the frustration. It doesn’t seem right or fair that everyone is assumed to be dishonest and that those who are guilty of bad judgment—while certainly bad enough on it’s own and worthy of condemnation—are lumped in with the truly criminal. But that’s just the way things are. When big names in your industry mess up, it’s up to every one to help clean up that mess, fair or not.



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

hp
Jan. 24, 2004, 11:06 AM
Dogchushu - well said.

Ghazzu
Jan. 24, 2004, 11:30 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>

Good GRIEF. Why??? They're all LEGAL... (well aside from the tranq cocktail which she clearly said she gave a month in advance...)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Try reading the original from which I quoted--she was speaking of having prohibited medications with her at a show, which were given to a horse which had gotten injured at said show.

And I responded that I had no problem with having said drugs; my problem is with those who use them in contravention of the rules.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Silver Bells
Jan. 24, 2004, 01:33 PM
DOGCHUSHU... Very well stated! Unfortunately the guilty parties inviolved are more than just a few, and the list grows and grows and grows...

Maybe all the attention, be it positive or negative will help matters.

lauriep
Jan. 24, 2004, 02:25 PM
I'm not trying to make any case, pro or con, except to say I refuse to stand in judgment on the tiny bit of information available, I admire and respect the points of view of People like C. Boylen and DMK who are intimately involved and understand the workings of both modern training methods AND the current medications of choice. And I do not equate breaking the rules of USEF with true horse abuse. MY feelings and beliefs, and something that I will continue to espouse. I can't tolerate the denigrating of people that you have never met, seen how their barns are run or the condition their horses are in just on the basis that they broke the rules. Repeat offenders? Possibly you have a point. But certainly not with first offenders. Why not give 'em a chance and see if the lesson is learned?

Thanks dogchushu. But if I have something to say, I'm not going to sugarcoat it. I live by my beliefs, and it has served me well.

Oh, and this just in from a lurker, NOT me:
"On abuse: what's worse, bad riding, training, etc. or a 1/2?

Has it ever occurred to these people that considering, over the years, that a good deal of the BNT's (who are regarded as icons by many here) have been involved, i.e. Temprelax in 2000/Margie, Bert, Peter Leone to name a few, those we know of in '78 including Mr. Morris...they know something. Maybe that something is no matter how many years of prefect training goes into the horse, and it would be most horses, they all would be better off with some from of pharmaceutical assistance. For those with a foot ache, a little Bute, for those who the Sports Psychologist did no good, a bit of something for anxiety/for the nervous something to calm the nerves.

When I retire, I'm going to jump on the tallest bandwagon and campaign for the regulated used of tranquilizers. And I'm quite sure there are a few others who'd join me.

Until you walk in someone else's shoes, i.e., the BNTs involved, who are you to judge? BTW...Jakesdad is right on re: starving v. ace.

Vent over."

Laurie

Bumpkin
Jan. 24, 2004, 04:09 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Jan. 24, 2004, 04:22 PM
I for one don't take offense at posts on this BB. And appreciate input that has both knowledge and history with it. We all have to be careful not to read into a post, other then what was said. Semantics being a problem for all of us. Depending on where you live.

A real example is the discussion on the post of "show nerves". People are talking about medicating without the knowledge of what it is? Why on earth would you take any one's word for whether anything would test or not? After everything that people have posted too. Its all beyond me. Like Grisom said on CSI, "I don't get people".

lauriep's rep has preceeded her. She is and has been a true horsewoman. Seeing both sides of an issue is the way our judicial system is set up. And hopefully run by. Hopefully, I will get a chance to meet her someday.

Flash44
Jan. 24, 2004, 04:49 PM
So what is the big mystery about how big show barns are run? What is so difficult to grasp that us lowly peons who only do a couple big shows a year can't understand about "the top?"

dogchushu
Jan. 24, 2004, 05:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
I'm not trying to make any case, pro or con, except to say I refuse to stand in judgment on the tiny bit of information available, I admire and respect the points of view of People like C. Boylen and DMK who are intimately involved and understand the workings of both modern training methods AND the current medications of choice. And I do not equate breaking the rules of USEF with true horse abuse. MY feelings and beliefs, and something that I will continue to espouse. I can't tolerate the denigrating of people that you have never met, seen how their barns are run or the condition their horses are in just on the basis that they broke the rules. Repeat offenders? Possibly you have a point. But certainly not with first offenders. Why not give 'em a chance and see if the lesson is learned? ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can judge actions even if you don't know the person. And sometimes, those actions speak for themselves.

I would agree with you that first-time offenders aren't neccessarily "evil-doers" or horrible people. However, they did get caught breaking the rules--and they deserve to suffer the consequences of doing so.

I think a lot of people have argued that those consequences aren't severe enough. Not that many of us want to ruin these people's lives or chase them out of the horse business--but getting caught "cheating" at your sport is something that should hurt a bit. And it should be "life altering" to the effect that it convinces otherwise decent people never to do the same thing again.

I think a lot of the anger is coming from the fact that so many people were caught that it seems an endemic problem in the sport and something has to be done about that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
... Oh, and this just in from a lurker, NOT me:
"On abuse: what's worse, bad riding, training, etc. or a 1/2?

Has it ever occurred to these people that considering, over the years, that a good deal of the BNT's (who are regarded as icons by many here) have been involved, i.e. Temprelax in 2000/Margie, Bert, Peter Leone to name a few, those we know of in '78 including Mr. Morris...they know something. Maybe that something is no matter how many years of prefect training goes into the horse, and it would be most horses, they all would be better off with some from of pharmaceutical assistance. For those with a foot ache, a little Bute, for those who the Sports Psychologist did no good, a bit of something for anxiety/for the nervous something to calm the nerves.

When I retire, I'm going to jump on the tallest bandwagon and campaign for the regulated used of tranquilizers. And I'm quite sure there are a few others who'd join me. ...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, I was with you on the foot ache part and you had me right up to the tranqing comment.

There have been a lot of posts recently by individuals who are totally disillusioned by our sport who state that they don't want to aspire to the top levels if it means that horses are tranqed in order to compete.

And here I was, naive, foolish me, arguing that not all top-level trainers or competitors believe in tranqing horses for competition. I guess maybe I was wrong. Good to know.

Personally, I think a lot of people wouldn't want to compete in a sport where the top level is only acheived by inducing an artificial calmness in your animal. Your mileage may vary.

Anyway, regardless of whether tranquilizers may be a not-so-bad thing and okay in the future. Right now, they're against the rules and are considered cheating.



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

WWCountry
Jan. 24, 2004, 05:12 PM
Flash44--As in the rest of the world, money does strange things to people. And they will do things they never thought they would to protect it. It can turn nice people into monsters. I don't think Lauriep is talking down to you, but there is a difference between attending an AA show and living in an AA show barn. Many barns have millions of $ of horses and trainers who need to protect those investments. So if Flicka turns out to be too much horse for little Susie, it's the trainer's responsibility to make it work. And parents do not want to know that $150,000 Flicka is quite what they thought. They just want it to work. I'm not advocating the use of illegal substances, it's just what can happen when a trainer is up against a wall.

How about putting horses on the walker all nite to get them quiet? How do you feel about that?
Isn't that more abusive?

Midge
Jan. 24, 2004, 05:56 PM
Having been involved in horses on a local and national level and having been intimately involved in right and wrong at the local and national level, I have learned one thing. People try to do the best thing for their horses at every level. There are cheaters at every level. People would rather a horse die than make them look bad at every level. People would rather walk out of the ring empty handed than LTD to get the ribbon at every level. People will LTD on general principle at every level. I have seen local level professionals sit on a horse all day long and ride it in 15 classes. I have seen TOP working/junior hunters show ten days in a row and still walk out of the barn at 5:30 to spend 30 minutes on the longe line on that tenth day.

There is no magical annointing that occurs when one attends WEF, just as there is no local yokel tattoo for those who never show beyond the local level. A horse show is a horse show, whether there are 30 horses or 3000.

As a judge I was the most roundly berated at the most 'local' show I ever judged. The man holding the horse I pinned last in the model (remember that drawing of the horse, demonstrating all the bad points? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) tells me his horse has never lost a 'halter' class and is in a rage. Now, this show couldn't have been a lower level show. If it was any lower on the totem pole, it would have been a trail ride.

I have stood at the ingate of a local show and watched one of eight students just make it around the course, nevermind any prizes! I have stood at the ingate of the biggest horse shows in the country and watched a student walk out with a blue ribbon. They're all the same. If you cheat at WEF, you'll cheat at Bobbie Sox Farm Schooling show. If you bring your babies along slow and careful at the Winter Schooling Series, you'll do the same at WEF.

Horsemanship, or lack thereof, is not predicated on the size of the show.

Kitty
Jan. 24, 2004, 05:59 PM
But what is the real Flicka like? I mean maybe Flicka wasn't actually too much horse until oh say a month or so after little Susie's parents bought it and Susie's trainer got it home.... maybe Flicka's "medication" wore off after say six weeks. They can't even trust each other, those trainers who deal in the big number horses and that's part of the problem. If everyone was above board and what you saw was what you got, there wouldn't be a need to "medicate" for the adults and the childrens, etc. Not to say that they wouldn't seek that special little advantage anyway especially for those pro divisions where one flick of the tail or a slight raising up of the head in the corner can mean being out of the ribbons.... But let's be realistic, if you're training with a pro and the pro advises the purchase of what is considered the "right" horse, then with a good program (and shouldn't your high priced pro be able to design that program?) everything should fall into place. And if it doesn't, and mistakes are sometimes made in the match between horse and rider, then the answer should be to seek a better match when all else fails. Unless of course, the rules are changed. As in any profession, when mistakes are made, the professional, on whose judgment the purchased was based, may have to make good and that may mean financial loss. Beating the system by cheating is simply unethical. Not to mention immoral, but hey, who has morals these days?

mwalshe
Jan. 24, 2004, 06:04 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There is no magical annointing that occurs when one attends WEF, just as there is no local yokel tattoo for those who never show beyond the local level. A horse show is a horse show, whether there are 30 horses or 3000 <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
That is what makes the whole "you can't possibly understand until you go to WEF and pay $10K/day!!" vibe on this thread so laughable.

There are people willing to go to any lengths to win at a local 4-H show. And IME they're just as up on the latest drugs as any BNT in Florida.

Scarlet 1
Jan. 24, 2004, 06:32 PM
Lauriep, I have tremendous respect for the work that you have done and I certainly understand a lot of your arguments. I believe I understand what is going on the A Circuit, as I have shown very succesfully on the A Circuit with BNTs.

I can get comfortable with some of the arguments that a little cocktail may be better for the horse than LTD, and I can easily get comfortable with the concept that we need to do whatever it takes to make our equine partners comfortable and to give the old campaigner a few more years. What I still can't reconcile is cheating. How can we justify giving a horse reserpine to make it go around quietly, when when I follow the rules I have to deal with the head shake or a wee spook. Cheating is cheating right? Can we get comfortable with the BNT sending his in with a bit of reserpine. What is the justification for that? How is that fair for those of us that follow the rules. It is a horse show not a Lab/Chemistry final.

DMK
Jan. 24, 2004, 08:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hobbes:
There are people willing to go to any lengths to win at a local 4-H show. And IME they're just as up on the latest drugs as any BNT in Florida.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I beg to differ... No testing process, no problem. Why spend money on expensive, undetectable (theoretically http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) drugs, when the very cheap, very effective, very popular "liquid yellow lunge line" is handy?

I mean honestly, if you go looking for the fancy stuff at a local show, you just aren't very clever IMO. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Scarlet, I don't think there are a whole lot of folks condoning cheating, but I think some of the following things have been bandied about on this thread:

1. If you have a meds chest you must be cheating. To wit I must ask what you should do with your meds if you are on the road 30+ weeks a year with10 plus horses on various maintenance drugs such as legend, isox, gastroguard, etc.?

2. If you give your horse any meds - even the legal stuff, you must be cheating. If you disagree with the current rule, that's cool - there are parts of it I think could be eliminated and only benefit the horse, but I can't condemn folks who abide by the law...

3. If you show at a big show with a BNT and a horse that cost some bucks you are more likely to cheat than some devoted soul who got her horse off the track and bravely trained and showed it herself to some success at a local level. Midge said it all. The only thing I would add is that it is easier and less painful - penalty wise - to cheat at a local level

4. Giving a horse an Rx that is illegal is abuse. Well one thing it for sur eis, is abuse of fellow competitors who might have been cheated out of money/placings. It may or may not have been abusive depending on the Rx in question.

Me personally, I think these are all poor examples of logic and needed to be addressed.

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

Snowbird
Jan. 24, 2004, 09:39 PM
Cheating is cheating and there is no other excuse for it. We are horse competitions. If some at the top levels have the excuses needed to alter a horse's performance then either everyone does it and we have a competition of chemists or nobody does anything and heaven's we may skip a couple of shows.

If a horse can't show for 30 weeks straight without help, then don't torture the poor good hearted thing WHAT ABOUT A RADICAL CONCEPT DON'T SHOW FOR THE WHOLE 30 WEEKS.

If the horse is arthritic from old age then should it go into ring and beat young horses going clean? If a horse can only show once every two weeks fine then show once every two weeks.

What is winning? Is it to prove the trainer is superior or the rider/owner is superior or the horse is superior. Is it a feel good psychological experience? Or is it it a horse show to fairly measure the ability of the horses? Or is it an artificial way to increase the value of an investment? Is that not worse than "Insider" trading for stocks?

There is no excuse at any level to medicate a horse to compete. A horse that requires medication to keep competing should not be in competition.

When you accept a little excuse then where do you draw the line? I'm sorry but but it's like being pregnant you can't be a little bit pregnant and you can't be almost sound or a good performaer with chemical aids.

These are horse shows, the horses are judged for performance and soundness, anything that alters either performance or soundness is a perversion of the basic concept.

I don't care if it is 30 weeks of AA Shows the basic principle is the same. If the horse cannot be maintained in a normal condition competing for 30 weeks, then don't compete for 30 weeks! There are no excuses, there are no mistakes and there are no reasons that can be held valid. The fact that everyone does it is not a vlid justification for dishonest behavior which alters the results of any competition.

If the argument is that it is not horse abuse, ask the vet what happens to horses that are regularly medicated on a heavy schedule of cocktails. Do the functions of their body become jeopardized?

If people do it and the horse didn't do it to himself but a person did it, then it is animal abuse because you are imparing the biological functions of the horse and shortening it's life.

So we have criminals abusing horses and increasing the value of their investment by the winning that is fraud.

You have people winning a lot of money awards with horses that are medicated and that is racketeerism the RICO laws. How can anyone justify such actions as valid in any sport competition?

If we cannot control ourselves then I suggest that the Rules of the Track apply and NO ONE is allowed to have syringes, needles or medication except a licensed practicing veterinarian at any horse show. That there is zero tolerance as per the FEI rules for any horses even if care and custody is off the site. People who are suspended should not be permitted within 5000 feet of any show grounds.

If found on the grounds in disguise they should be suspended for life. If violating the the intention of the rules by phone or by radio they should be fined $5,000 a minute they were in contact.

Do we have to wait for a horse to drop dead or a person to be killed to realize there is a problem. What the H*** kind of an example are you setting for the children when their horses are medicated to perform better. Don't you think that makes the children believe they are entitled to medicate themselves to perform better?

A little upper for the SAT, a little downer for the anxiety and a little tranquilizer for stress well gee! Why not it will make them feel good and perform better.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Jan. 25, 2004 at 12:48 AM.]

Ben and Me
Jan. 24, 2004, 09:51 PM
In all honesty, how much does one tail swish in the corner count in most company? I really cannot see it making that big of a difference except at somewhere like Indoors. Most of the time a little playing in the corner isn't going to seriously knock you out--if you still have the best course, you're going to win. I think that we are all exaggerating slightly--the horses that are most likely being tranquilized aren't the ones that "play" in the corners--they are the ones that probably have no business being in the hunter ring at all.

Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
-T.S. Eliot

Weatherford
Jan. 25, 2004, 03:40 AM
Ben & me - I think that REALLY depends on the judge - and one of the problems the judges forum HAS been considering (actually, for a long time!), is that many of the younger/newer more locally oriented judges DO put more emphasis on that tail switch or late change or doing the count or anything BUT the jump...

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

levremont
Jan. 25, 2004, 06:27 AM
I have to say here, I am all for very harsh penalties for "illegal" drugs or amounts at shows, but until you have a "bigger" barn you cannot say that we should not carry drugs and needles in our trunks! Ever had a horse break a leg and the vet be 1 hour away? Had a horse colic terribly at 2 am? Had a horse get hurt on a trailer ride? If you have enough horses, long enough these things will happen, you will be thankfull you know how to give IV injections and you have powerful drugs you know how to use! We have over 30 horses, the closest clinic is 45 minutes away and my vets always make sure I have the drugs needed to treat in an emergency (as well as antibiotics (genacin/naxel) for lacerations/lynphengitis, steriods (naquazone),banamine, rompon,and of course bute,demosodan,a clean tube of non-steroidal antibiotic ophtalmic cream). I do not carry drugs such as Reserpine or ace, I would not need those in a usual emergency or to start treatement until a vet can come out.I call the vet as soon as possible, touch base and either ask what to administer or tell him what I have given (always take temp/pulse/heart rate first), the vet always comes out as soon as possible to make sure everything is ok and treat further. If it is a boarder's horse I will only treat if it is in dire need (we have permission to treat on file), I will not give IV injections to a boarders horse unless it is an imidiate need. Excuse spelling my first language is French!!!

visit us at www.levremont.com (http://www.levremont.com)

horselesswonder
Jan. 25, 2004, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
There is no magical annointing that occurs when one attends WEF, just as there is no local yokel tattoo for those who never show beyond the local level. A horse show is a horse show, whether there are 30 horses or 3000.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly! I've done little local shows, local A's, bigger A's, pony finals, Devon. You know what? They're all horse shows. There is nothing magical about a rated show, other than the rapidity with which money disappears from one's wallet. In fact, many of the classes at the rated shows are smaller than those at the local level, and the local level has become increasingly competitive as people have left the rateds in favor of cheaper, more friendly environments. I would venture to say that at many local rated shows, the only really big divisions are the 3-foot hunters because they are more attainable and affordable for many families. I am also sick to death of reading about how only a very few people on this board can understand "the circuit." Sorry, but that's just not true. There is no great mystery in packing up your trunks, renting a stall on the showgrounds and showing. It's taking the home show on the road.

And you know, IME there's no huge difference between a big boarding barn and a big show barn, either. I've been in both places. Shockingly, in both situations, the horses were fed, turned out and their stalls cleaned each day, and I was billed for each month. People came and rode and took lessons and went to horse shows and packed up and went to "away" shows.

Please stop preaching to the "peons" and alienating people. You guys might not intend your posts to be offensive, but I think many posters - some of whom have employed and do in fact know the very trainers we're talking about - are irritated by the elitism.

keljo
Jan. 25, 2004, 08:38 AM
In response to Lauriep and Sallylou, I may not have first-hand experience with a bigger show barn, but I do have some first-hand experience with veterinary medicine. I don't think anyone is going to condemn use of Adequan/Legend, or a little bute after a show, but it's the rather uninformed use of prescription drugs which bothers me. When I read about a dose of Ace before every ride, or dex at every show, or methocarbamol (which may not even have *any* effect in horses) I'm bothered. And no one seems to know, or even want to know, the side effects of these drugs.

Even that dose of banamine at the first sign of colic ("but that's all the vet usually does") will mask symptoms, making it more difficult for your vet to determine what kind/where the colic is. I just think it's important to always consult your vet before administering medications.

Would you do this with yourselves or your kids? Pop a Soma for a sore muscle? Company's coming? Give Junior a Valium!
It's just medically (and many of us think ethically) irresponsible.

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Jan. 25, 2004, 08:39 AM
Snowbird, no one here will deny that cheating is cheating. Thats the one issue we all can agree on. Which to me, is a good start.

Weatherford, as for if and when the judging committee decides to change its views, we'll see. Thats been a long running argument, with no resolution so far.

DMK, once again, IMHO, bullseye!

And if people think that the small, schooling, 4H and otherwise unregulated shows will even buy the stuff, I rather doubt that. From what I have been told, it's expensive.

Personally know trainers, who pull blood on their horses every few months, and have it stored. For 2 reasons. One, to make sure no EPM or West Nile. Two, to have proof that their horses are not drugged. These horses are shown at AA shows. Cost $$$'s, and they have been doing this procedure for over 3 years now. So some BNT's do care, and do want a clean house.

levremont
Jan. 25, 2004, 09:32 AM
Keljo: before you call people irresponsible I would reread my post! I do not medicate for minor issues (definatly not for show reasons). I also think that if my vet (who has known me for years!) insists that I have what is needed to medicate myself in the case of an emergency, I must not be considered "uninformed". Did I not say "colic terribly" (and for your info I would listen to gut sounds first,walk, if "gassy sounding give "xylazine" first, (it is not as hard on the digestive system as banamine!)wait 30 minutes while walking him some, then go on from there!) I think I have delt with enough colics to know that A: many start out "gassy" and if I can get the horse to relax and move it will pass B: the vet is always called and comes out to "check" C:if there is an impaction big enough/a twist/or herniation it will not be "masked" by anything for more than a VERY short time ( in which case the horse will go to the hospital so that they can operate if needed. As I stated always take respiration/heart rate/temp first! And obviously anyone who is not knowlegable enough should just wait for the vet and walk the horse!

visit us at www.levremont.com (http://www.levremont.com)

bitsy
Jan. 25, 2004, 10:00 AM
I feel like I am watching the new Donald Trump "Apprentice" show on TV - Girl's Team. Stop bickering and get back to the topic at hand. You are not making things better by attacking each others choices. If you don't agree - say so, but agree to disagree for god's sake w/out attacking each other personally.

pwynnnorman
Jan. 25, 2004, 10:04 AM
Snowbird said it, in a nutshell, over and over again. If it can be done FEI and at the track, why can't it be done elsewhere?

The thing is, as I see it, "doing it" would be so much healthier for the industry because there would be more turnover. NOT competing the same horse for 30 weeks would raise the demand for horses. Retiring that old guy would increase the demand for his replacement. PRODUCING good horses would become just as important as PURCHASING them. And managing a good horse's career would become an important part of the sport. (I think, currently, RIDERS' careers often take precedent--hence the LTD, LTQ, medicating up the whazoo stuff.)

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

mwalshe
Jan. 25, 2004, 10:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Oh, I beg to differ... No testing process, no problem. Why spend money on expensive, undetectable (theoretically ) drugs, when the very cheap, very effective, very popular "liquid yellow lunge line" is handy?

I mean honestly, if you go looking for the fancy stuff at a local show, you just aren't very clever IMO. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
4-H does test as far as I know, although probably not at small shows.

Local trainers still sell horses and people vet test those horses and no-one wants a drug test to come back showing Ace. I know of quite a few relatively low priced local horses who were likely drugged w/ long-acting sedatives like those being discussed here, and at least one PC pony. They were told it was with something probably "undetectable" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Ruby G. Weber
Jan. 25, 2004, 11:08 AM
On the surface it may appear the FEI and their zero tolerance policy are nearly infallible however suffice it to say that there is a vast difference in sensitivity between the testing labs in Europe and Cornell.

Race tracks-what about the states that allow Bute and Lasix? It is my understanding that Lasix is a potent masking agent hence it's status with USEF.

Snowbird
Jan. 25, 2004, 02:17 PM
Ruby don't you think that's a bad excuse. It's the kid who comes home from school with a D and says to Mom well but a whole bunch flunked so I'm better than them.

The fact that the European Tests are not as good is not a reason to use drugs up to that level here. And, further I've been told that is changing. Also, some of those shows are sending their samples to our lab which means they will get caught.

If you can yank a gold medal out of the hand of a 12 year old gymnast who took a cold remedy because zero means zero then I call that pretty straight.

I could live with the fact that a horse or rider lost the brass ring because they needed to be medicated more easily than making excuses for the competition wasn't fair. OH! yes! there's that old slogan but it just made the horse perform like he should have if he didn't have.......

Yes! Wynn is right because our young horses would have a fair shot with errors because they're young if they are not medicated they will stay healthy longer, and yes! there will be more horse sales if we don't keep the old timers going forever.

And, what about the possibility that riders would have to learn to ride instead of just sit there as passengers. What I said is that if we can't control ourselves and we're serious about people walking around with needles sticking other peoples horses so they test positive then the only solution to a lack of honor and trust is to ban them from a show grounds except for the licensed vet.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Jan. 26, 2004 at 07:21 PM.]

Flash44
Jan. 25, 2004, 02:26 PM
bitsy, but the girls are winning.

Flash44
Jan. 25, 2004, 02:27 PM
Wallace, I've been around enough good horses to know that good horses don't need much more than joint supplements and a rest to cure what ails them.

keljo
Jan. 26, 2004, 02:51 PM
Sallylou--If you would re-read my post, I was not attacking you (although that's how it was apparently taken http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). If you have the OK from your vet before you administer meds in a colic, fine. But many people don't consult their vet first--and they don't give all those other "meds" on their vet's orders either. That was the point I was trying to make.

What I wrote about not giving banamine before an exam (unless your vet instructs you otherwise) is true for the reason I stated. You can be a very knowledgable and experienced horseperson, but that doesn't give you the same training as a veterinarian. I'm not attacking YOU, but there are many out there who do this--as we've seen posted by a few of the "medicators". "Playing doctor" based on prior experience (as many medicating posters have basically stated) IS irresponsible.

And my final thoughts on the topic at hand--in other sports you can't hire someone who's suspended/banned, etc (Pete Rose ?), and I don't think riders should be able to "hire" their suspended trainers--disguised or otherwise.

stevie
Jan. 26, 2004, 03:11 PM
I haven't read all of the post on this topic, however, what about trainers who are suspended and have their judges card? Should they be allowed to judge?
Also, If customers are stupid enough to pay the trainers who want to cheat, then let them. They are the ones who are being made a fool and opbviously they do not care about the welfare of their horses. It is clear that these people only want to win....And, they are as guilty as their trainers. Shame on all of them and shame on this sport!!!!

Coreene
Jan. 26, 2004, 03:35 PM
Snowbird, I know it was a typo but I'm just in tears of laughter about "flucked."

Janet
Jan. 26, 2004, 03:47 PM
If the suspension says "not allowed on the show grounds", it doesn't matter if you explicitly pull the judges license or not. Can't judge very well if they are not on the grounds.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Snowbird
Jan. 26, 2004, 04:24 PM
Thank you Coreene, I'm sure glad that the L stuck in there. That's what you get when you get old and wear bifocals, the keys next to each other get picked.

Old age is starting to get to me, I used be a perfect speller and now I find there are times when I change the words instead of spelling the ones I don't remember.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Coreene
Jan. 27, 2004, 09:33 AM
I has already entered my vocabulary! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

AreYouKidding
Jan. 30, 2004, 07:55 PM
What's 'reserpin' (sp?) ? I saw that a bunch of trainers are sitting down during FL because of this drug.
Lindsay

Black Market Radio
Jan. 31, 2004, 06:51 AM
Do a search on the forum, this has been discussed many times http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
Did you bring me a monkey?

Court@HJ-OH
Jan. 31, 2004, 07:42 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AreYouKidding:
What's 'reserpin' (sp?) ? I saw that a bunch of trainers are sitting down during FL because of this drug.
Lindsay<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Reserpine is an antipsychotic, that can be used in horses for anxiety and sedetion usually caused by stall rest.

The reason that so many trainers were caught with this drug is because a Vet went to all of them and sold them on a cocktail to give the hunters that he promised would not test/was not illegal substances. Well, it did test!!!! The vet has now fled to canada before he could be questioned so I hear! You guys north of the border had better watch out!!!

**Courtney**

Ghazzu
Jan. 31, 2004, 09:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
The reason that so many trainers were caught with this drug is because a Vet went to all of them and sold them on a cocktail to give the hunters that he promised would not test/was not illegal substances. Well, it did test!!!! The vet has now fled to canada before he could be questioned so I hear! You guys north of the border had better watch out!!!

**Courtney**<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would the vet have to "flee to Canada"?
The USEF has no criminal jurisdiction.
Unless he's afraid the suspended trainers will take up a collection and hire a hit man...
Sorry, this sounds more than a little fishy to me.
Besides which it is, after all irrelevant--if the trrainers were looking for a "cocktail", they were violating the rules.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

[This message was edited by Ghazzu on Jan. 31, 2004 at 12:50 PM.]

Court@HJ-OH
Jan. 31, 2004, 10:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
The reason that so many trainers were caught with this drug is because a Vet went to all of them and sold them on a cocktail to give the hunters that he promised would not test/was not illegal substances. Well, it did test!!!! The vet has now fled to canada before he could be questioned so I hear! You guys north of the border had better watch out!!!

**Courtney**<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would the vet have to "flee to Canada"?
The USEF has no criminal jurisdiction.
Unless he's afraid the suspended trainers will take up a collection and hire a hit man...
Sorry, this sounds more than a little fishy to me.
Besides which it is, after all irrelevant--if the trrainers were looking for a "cocktail", they were violating the rules.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's what happen. You think that all these BNT would give their horses reserpine and just hope it didn't test? They are not that stupid. Still cheaters looking for an edge, but not that stupid.

**Courtney**

Ghazzu
Jan. 31, 2004, 11:07 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
[
Why would the vet have to "flee to Canada"?
The USEF has no criminal jurisdiction.
Unless he's afraid the suspended trainers will take up a collection and hire a hit man...
Sorry, this sounds more than a little fishy to me.
Besides which it is, after all irrelevant--if the trrainers were looking for a "cocktail", they were violating the rules.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's what happen. You think that all these BNT would give their horses reserpine and just hope it didn't test? They are not that stupid. Still cheaters looking for an edge, but not that stupid.

**Courtney**<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, honey, if you have knowledge that there is a murder for hire scheme out there concerning this vet, I'd say you have an obligation to report same to the FBI, who can then go after those concerned.

Shopuld I not hear of any forthcoming investigation, I'll have to conclude that you're just blowing smoke. Or had some blown at you...

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Court@HJ-OH
Jan. 31, 2004, 11:10 AM
Murder for hire?? What are you talking about? You said that, not me! I just said what I have heard from the trainers suspended. Nothing about a murder!

**Courtney**

Ghazzu
Jan. 31, 2004, 11:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
Murder for hire?? What are you talking about? You said that, not me! I just said what I have heard from the trainers suspended. Nothing about a murder!

**Courtney**<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You quoted the section of my post where I asked if the suspended masses had hired a hit man, then replied

"That's what happen."

Guess you didn't read what you were responding to that closely.
So, back to your assertion that the alleged DVM has "fled to canada"--who or what exactly is s/he fleeing from?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Bumpkin
Jan. 31, 2004, 12:05 PM
Take us back to the 60's and 70's, reminds me of the Sy and George Jayne shenanighans http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

ESG
Jan. 31, 2004, 12:15 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by AreYouKidding:
What's 'reserpin' (sp?) ? I saw that a bunch of trainers are sitting down during FL because of this drug.
Lindsay<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Reserpine is an antipsychotic, that can be used in horses for anxiety and sedetion usually caused by stall rest.

The reason that so many trainers were caught with this drug is because a Vet went to all of them and sold them on a cocktail to give the hunters that he promised would not test/was not illegal substances. Well, it did test!!!! The vet has now fled to canada before he could be questioned so I hear! You guys north of the border had better watch out!!!

**Courtney**<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, Courtney, you'd better get your facts straight. Reserpine is a human drug that lowers blood pressure. It does the same in horses, and produces a tranquilizer-like effect. I think the drug you're thinking of is fluphenazine, a close cousin to Thorazine, which is indeed a human anti-psychotic. Both drugs have been around since God was young, and both test easily. So I don't think your tale of "innocent" trainers being taken in by a scamming vet holds water at all. Any trainer on the A circuit (and some who are not) knows about both these drugs, and what their effects are. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And yes, if these trainers give these drugs to their horses and just hope they won't get caught, they really are stupid! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Flash44
Jan. 31, 2004, 12:19 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
The reason that so many trainers were caught with this drug is because a Vet went to all of them and sold them on a cocktail to give the hunters that he promised would not test/was not illegal substances. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is still CHEATING by the trainers because they were looking to change their horse's behavior.

ESG
Jan. 31, 2004, 12:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sallylou:
I do not carry drugs such as Reserpine or ace, I would not need those in a usual emergency or to start treatement until a vet can come out.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that's the point of the argument, sallylou. Any of the other drugs you mentioned in your post are a normal part of a prepared horseman's first aid kit, and require only the filling out of a medical declaration form when you get to your show. There is no need of Reserpine or Ace at a horse show. It is illegal to show on both of these substances, and if you're caught with those substances in your horse's bloodstream, you get slammed. Period. There's no excuse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Fiction
Jan. 31, 2004, 01:51 PM
ESG- I know alot of people who use Ace or Demosadan for horses that are bad to clip(more often Ace). I'm pretty sure alot of these people have it in their barns, and they are just very careful about not showing the horse again until the drug's life span has elapsed.
So in that case, it seems(to me at least), ok if a barn has it in their med container, as long as the horses don't show on it.

-----
This is not a true story
-----

Court@HJ-OH
Jan. 31, 2004, 02:00 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Court@HJ-OH:
The reason that so many trainers were caught with this drug is because a Vet went to all of them and sold them on a cocktail to give the hunters that he promised would not test/was not illegal substances. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is still CHEATING by the trainers because they were looking to change their horse's behavior.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Flash, I said it was still cheating in my next post. I think these trainers hardly got what they deserved. A slap on the wrist was all they got.

This story is just what I was told they are feeding their clients by a friend of one of the suspended trainers.

**Courtney**

Court@HJ-OH
Jan. 31, 2004, 02:02 PM
The exact same thing happen in 1999 but with the supplement Tempralax instead of a mystery cocktail from a mystery vet.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/inc/01/mar23_inc.html

**Courtney**

ALF
Jan. 31, 2004, 02:03 PM
nobody said there was a hitman after any vet. get a clue.

Janet
Jan. 31, 2004, 02:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
nobody said there was a hitman after any vet. get a clue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Cout said the vet had "fled to Canada". Who was he fleeing from?

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

ALF
Jan. 31, 2004, 02:13 PM
i dunno but she DIDNT say there was any hitman. Someone else pulled that out of thin air and attributed it to her. Can youse guys read and understand english?

Ghazzu
Jan. 31, 2004, 02:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
nobody said there was a hitman after any vet. get a clue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read for comprehension.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

ALF
Jan. 31, 2004, 02:41 PM
dude - you need to read for comprehension. Show me where anyone other than YOU said anything about a hitman. You need a clue.

Ghazzu
Jan. 31, 2004, 02:55 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
dude - you need to read for comprehension. Show me where anyone other than YOU said anything about a hitman. You need a clue.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I *asked* what ought to have been a pretty obviously facetious question--unless you think there is a serious possiblity that a bunch of trainers would "take up a collection and hire a hitman".
Court then quoted me, *including that question* and answered,

"That's what happen."

Hence my response, that if she truly believed it, she'd report it.
At which point, she responded that she hadn't meant that.

And I now see, rather than her original
"That's what happen,", she says

"This story is just what I was told they are feeding their clients by a friend of one of the suspended trainers."

So we don't even know if this vet exists, much less if he's
"fled to canada", and much less that he's in danger of assassination.
Relax.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

ALF
Jan. 31, 2004, 03:00 PM
'Thats what happen' was clearly in response to the question of whether or not the vet fled the country. Since you yourself acknowledge that the hitman theory is farfetched, it's hard to believe that you unkowingly misinterpreted her response.

So actually even YOU didnt say there was a hitman. You speculated that somebody might be worried that some unspecified people might be looking for a hitman. Then when Court said that yes, he fled to Canada, you concluded that there WAS a hitman. Is english your first language?

Ghazzu
Jan. 31, 2004, 03:10 PM
I repeat my plea that you try reading for comprehension.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

ALF
Jan. 31, 2004, 03:11 PM
I repeat my assertion that your advice would be best taken by you.

ALF
Jan. 31, 2004, 03:14 PM
Are you really not getting it? You made up something and tried to say it was someone else who gave you the idea, even though you knew it wasn't believable. And now you're telling me to read for comprehnsion. What is your deal?

becca's boys
Jan. 31, 2004, 03:31 PM
Ghazzu...take a deep breath (Electric Tape is just a silly troll). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

ALF
Jan. 31, 2004, 03:35 PM
How did I get to be the troll? I'm not the one who made up a criminal accusation.

2Dogs
Jan. 31, 2004, 04:24 PM
How very interesting all these discussions become!

What I have learned, heard, thought about over the few days I have been reading these posts are the following:

The use of drugs in horses has been around for quite some time (not only from what said here but from what I remember in the 60's when I was showing ponies with some BNT's).
The use of drugs now - many illegal - is pretty common (my personal experience) - I remember at Indio two years ago that there were two vets to go to for their "miracle" potions/drugs, some touted as "undetectable". These vets were very busy! Everyone knew who they were....

But, while we are focused on the drugging problem, I suspect a bigger revolution is needed - and one I doubt will ever happen given the how the industry of horses has grown so large and vested in the dollars associated with it.
The revolution? Simply put, I do not think horses - any horse - has evolved far enough from their ancestors to be able to show week after week after week and not go crazy or unsound. Oh there may be the exceptions, but really, we have all brought this upon our poor horse friends with the point chase, the change in "hunters",the youth of the horses starting to show, and the endless need to hit every circuit, etc etc etc.
My mother rode and showed in the 30's. Due to the
real limitations of travel and the less frequent shows (maybe the economics), I remember her telling me that her "show" season consisted of maybe 6 shows total. The rest of the time, she was riding her wonderful horses, but doing all sorts of things that were available then - hunting them, taking them cross country, having a lesson, etc. The one horse she kept with her died at my grandmother's farm when she was 32 and I don't remember her ever being lame...ever. Now I may be naive and maybe this was a unique case, but I watch the trainers I have been with (BNTs and others) trying to placate the parents and the families who want to be sure their horses can not only show but win, and I have watched many trainers quite easily slip into the expediency of ever emerging drugs to make it possible and also have heard every trainer I have been with say the ONLY way they can stay in business is to take horses to shows (and buy and sell horses) because the cost of just having a training program is a money loser.

So in my ramble, I think that the economy of the business and the expectations of some consumers plus the stress on the horses to do things that nature did not intend = drug use! Gad, look at what our human atheletes are doing! I was toodling on the internet to look up some info on Propel sport water and found a web site that has ALL of the banned sport enhancing drugs on it, available to me or anyone else, with syringes and baby starter kits of steroids, testosterone - you name it!

So I think that unless there is a real change in our sport, I am cynical that the problems will ever be controlled. Having said that, it may be that by working, as so many of you have, to stiffen the penalties for detected drug abuse, that the revolution for larger change will have to happen. I hope so.

"Insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result"
Albert Einstein

becca's boys
Jan. 31, 2004, 06:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
How did I get to be the troll? I'm not the one who made up a criminal accusation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry Electric Tape...but I went and re-read some of your previous posts and you are either smokin' crack...or you are just a pot-stirring troll. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

2greys
Jan. 31, 2004, 06:59 PM
WOW. after reading all 12 pages I'm feeling a little "drugged"... and somewhat ashamed to realize that PLAIN OLD GOOD TRAINING has been replaced by quicker methods that require less thought and tact on the human's part.

I don't give a shat(not even 2 shats at this moment) about the riding part. Lets think for a minute, that some people who would consider themselves "good horsemen" or at least lable themselves "trainers", don't even have the patience to teach their horses to clip, have teeth floated, or farrier work, without administering a drug.

This sh*t is so commonplace it isn't even THOUGHT to be wrong, not for a second.

Don't tell me about your crazy horse, his attitude problem, his past abuse which makes him act up, his breeding which gives him a reason to be a nut...

Lets talk about your lack of skill...

If you don't want to spend the weeks or months it might take to overcome a handling problem, because you are on a schedule(dammit!) and you can't waste the time, because time is money, you should look into some other option: like not having a horse at all.

I've worked for a few big deal trainers, as the groom mind you, who have no problem medicating a horse to deal with some behavior that they just don't have the time, patience, skill, or energy to work on.

I think if you are going to make horses the dominant "thing" in your life, and make all sorts of personal sacrifices to support your obsession, and claim to love these animals as well, you might as well invest some time in yourself - and learn that horses aren't as stupid as you make them out to be, and if you put the time in there are a whole lot of problems you could solve. without medication.

Luckily I have met trainers who, if anyone even suggested medicating a horse to do something like clipping, would be so shocked because to people who ACTUALLY TRAIN horses, the idea of that is so foreign and out in left field somewhere it would be like, "what the f***??????"

The only reason I would not be shocked is because I've been exposed to it. I would never do it, or recommend it. I'd be embarrassed at what it said about my own lack of skill.

*yeah I'm sure they're grey. just scrape the mud off!*

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Jan. 31, 2004, 07:20 PM
Oh that we could go back 2Dogs to those days. What a better horse world it might be.

How many have read Horse People? If you think those horses, clopped out of the Clairmont stables, crossed thru traffic, past cars, taxis and the like, and proceeded to central park without batting an eyelash, you are past naieve. There's even a paragraph about the likes of certain medications to help the less than stable equine cross the streets. This has been going on forever. Not condoning by a long shot, but how with all the ideas that have been brought up, do you feel it will be controlled? Maybe a dent is all we can hope for. And if it's in favor of our horses, isn't that what we are after?

ALF
Jan. 31, 2004, 08:23 PM
sorry ao - im neither. try again.

Flash44
Feb. 1, 2004, 10:06 AM
2Dogs, 2 thumbs up. Mr. Flash grew up working for racing yards in England. The barns were usually located in towns and villages, and you occasionally had to hack 15 - 20 minutes to get to the gallops. Through the town, across several streets, up the horse path next to the highway...somehow they all seemed to get get used to it. Occasionally they would even stop at the local market for a snack.

Snowbird
Feb. 1, 2004, 11:08 AM
Oh! My! I haven't been on this thread for awhile and it has certainly degenerated from the righteous call to action by the Hearing Committee.

I believe the issue is how to put teeth into the rule and to prevent evasive escape from the penalties. Money doesn't seem to be a serious deterrent, suspension doesn't seem to have worked just to judge from what's been posted.

Being a country girl I do agree that the problem is not with the horses who can become accustomed to almost anything in their environment. I do agree that the problem is keeping them locked up in solid boxes and then taking them out day after day after day to jump fences. I suspect the horses are a bit smarter than the owners because they have figured out this is an unnatural way to live and therefore require chemical adjustment to keep them cooperative.

Assuming all that you is correct the issue on the table is do we ignore it? Recognize all the possible alibis and mistakes as "the devil made me do it" or do we recommend a cure?

Do we say it has always been so and there's no way to fix it? or do we spend this dialog on solutions?

We got attention with about 100 emails, maybe we need to send 500 emails to tell the administration that we won't take it any more, that we are tired of being beat by chemically treated horses in what then is an unfair and unequal competition?

Battle Scarred Veteran

levremont
Feb. 1, 2004, 03:01 PM
ESG: I was just stating that most barns need to have "some" drugs on hand. A couple of people stated earlier that we should just not be allowed to have drugs of anykind on showgrounds (I think they said "like at the track"?). My post was referring to it not being feasible for barns that travel to not have a "drug box" as well as needles with them.

visit us at www.levremont.com (http://www.levremont.com)

Snowbird
Feb. 1, 2004, 03:22 PM
Well maybe the shows need a sick wing where the horse can be medicated because they're not showing, or maybe you have to stable off the grounds.

There's always a good reason to do something the solutions are what we need not the reasons to learn how to be a chemist.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Bumpkin
Feb. 2, 2004, 06:43 AM
Showing did not use to be a year round thing.
And the break between starting the new year was a lot longer than a matter of weeks.

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

Jake's Dad
Feb. 5, 2004, 01:32 PM
i have a solution...to the drug problem...because we can't solve it ..let everyone use what they want and stop wasting money on laws that can't be enforced..and if you want to drug your horse its ok, if you dont thats ok too..the real big problem is not drugs in horse showing its much bigger. drugging isn't close to the major problem.

Madison
Feb. 5, 2004, 01:57 PM
Well said 2Dogs

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

hunterprincez
Feb. 5, 2004, 04:02 PM
I have tried to keep up with this topic but it seems to be a loosing battle. Here is my take on this whole subject. As a person who works in the veterinary field plus shows at the A shows I see all sorts of horses come and go. I would never give my horse anything such as Reserpine or Fluphenizine and then show them. I just was not raised that way. That is cheating. These drugs do have their place, for extended stall rest these drugs can be lifesavers. There will always be people who are trying to find a way to get results quicker and easier. I think that is a big part of our society. The "I want results and I want them now!" attitude. The riders who only want to show show show and win win win are not going to be happy when their trainer tells them it is ok that he got a little quick there and ran through the in&out with more training he will learn not to rush. Heck, I know I have had some pretty low moments when my greenie refused to give and went around with his head and tail in the air like a giraffe on speed. I can tell you sticking him with something WOULD have made it easier to ride him. But I kept working at it and now it is not a problem because it was fixed the right way.

Flash44
Feb. 6, 2004, 06:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by hunterprincez:
Heck, I know I have had some pretty low moments when my greenie refused to give and went around with his head and tail in the air like a giraffe on speed.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I had about 3 years of that!

Ash
Feb. 6, 2004, 01:22 PM
Jake's Dad- Are you kidding?

Just out of curiosity...are you not the father of a trainer who is currently suspended for reserpine use??

************************************************** **********
"I'm not going to have reporters pawing through our papers. We are the president."
-- Hilary Clinton

Jake's Dad
Feb. 7, 2004, 03:41 PM
ash no im not kidding!!!!!it will never be solved ...jake was a horse not a big name trainer.....

Ghazzu
Feb. 7, 2004, 03:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake's Dad:
ash no im not kidding!!!!!it will never be solved ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People continue to rob banks, even though there are rules against it.
Does that mean we should drop the rules?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

LimoWrek
Feb. 7, 2004, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jake's Dad:
ash no im not kidding!!!!!it will never be solved ...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

People continue to rob banks, even though there are rules against it.
Does that mean we should drop the rules?

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Robbing banks and drugging horses are apples and oranges.

----
Limo Wrek.

CBoylen
Feb. 7, 2004, 04:14 PM
If you take a moment to think about it, rather than dismiss it out of hand, you'll may see why Jake's Dad might feel as he does. You don't have to agree, but it is a valid consideration.
On some level, the institution of drug rules may have been one of the worst things to ever happen to this sport. Horses of the old days were fit and plentiful, and those that needed it went around happily on a cc or so of ace. There was no over-lunging, no fresh-from-Europe concoctions, no bizzare and dangerous administration of Ca or Mg, no flat-out horse abuse in an attempt to prepare for the ring. No need to go to extremes, when the easiest solution was available. Horses were thus sounder (and therefore not in need of as much of any other kind of medication), safer, and cheaper, because there wasn't such a need, and a premium, for a dead-quiet talented horse. Talented was enough, and lord knows that's hard enough to find on its own.
So just ask yourselves, for a moment, what precisely have we accomplished since then? Our rules haven't put the horses in a better position. Our competitors aren't in a better position. We took that level playing field and gave people the opportunity to cheat, and we've been chasing them down to punish them, unsuccessfully, ever since.
At this point, there IS no solution. There will always be a minority of people who are one step ahead of the rules. And your money will continue to be spent in their pursuit. I don't see how Jake's Dad's opinion is any less reasonable than anyone else's.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Jake's Dad
Feb. 7, 2004, 04:15 PM
ghazzu, i'm sorry i thought we were talking about horse shows and drugging ...banks i'm not sure of. did the bankers make those rules after they couldn't pay people their savings in '29 and the banks failed ..or did the gov. get involved ...