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Jake's Dad
Feb. 7, 2004, 04:22 PM
thank you C.Boylen...you said it better than i ..

Flash44
Feb. 7, 2004, 04:26 PM
C.boylen, the problems show horses are facing today are caused by

-spending way too many days on the road showing
-showing all winter instead of getting a 4 or 5 month break
-people who expect too much of them in terms of behavior and performance

They are not caused by the drug rules. If drug use was limited to a cc or 2 of ace back then, I'm sure the multitude of drug rules we currently have would not have been necessary.

WE WILL NEVER GO BACK TO THE OLDEN DAYS when horses lived in big grassy pastures, actually hunted, kids rode ponies bareback all day, outside courses demanded a different kind of hunter rider than what we have today, etc.

It's not a horse problem, it's a PEOPLE PROBLEM.

CBoylen
Feb. 7, 2004, 04:47 PM
Horses at the top of this sport have been showing all winter since the early 1960's. They went from the early winter schooling show circuit in the south to Winterhaven, FL, or Boca Raton or Miami.
Horses then could show as much as they can now, and did or did not according to their owners wishes, as they do now. The HOTY award has always been, in the words of Dave Kelley, awarded to the trainer with the fastest van.
The drug rules were instituted on the influence of one woman, may she rest in peace. I think she would have liked you. The kicker was that her horses were as drugged as everyone else's, she just never knew it until they stopped going well after she changed the rules.
In any case, I don't mean to imply that the horse in general is not better off today. It is. It has better medical treatment, better footing, safer jumps, safer stabling, turn-out at some shows, and all the innovations in padding and shoeing that it could require. However, in some instances, these rules have been detrimental to the welfare of our horses. One can't overlook that.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

jr
Feb. 7, 2004, 05:00 PM
Interesting comments on the role of HOTY awards and over-showing.

What would happen if we didn't do HOTY. There are lots of prestigious awards throughout the year -- championships at the oldest shows (upperville, Devon etc. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif) Circuit championships at WEF, Ocala, Indio etc. What if we just stopped counting points? Would people slow down, and concentrate those specific shows that meant the most to them??

Flash44
Feb. 8, 2004, 05:54 AM
Unfortunately, you do have to show year round to be at the top. Today, everyone with more money than sense thinks they can be at the top just by going to show after show after show. It's not just horses at the top who are point chasing and medicated in order to go well in the ring, it's 3 footers down to mini stirrupers down to beginner adults in the Podunk Honky Tonk Horse Show Association.

The current medication rules ALLOW the overuse of show horses because you can cover up the stiffness and soreness that goes hand in hand with a day's work by medicating the horse. Pain and inflammation are the result of DAMAGE to the soft and/or hard tissues, and stiffness and soreness is the horse's way of TELLING us that this occurred.

DMK
Feb. 8, 2004, 09:46 AM
The notion that the "current" rule allows us to show too much just doesn't hold water. When it comes to those things that reduce inflammation, block pain, ease stiff muscles such as bute, banamine, robaxin and a host of other "legal" drugs, they have ALWAYS been legal (and they have been around for quite some time). It's just now they are regulated as to the amount you can give. As in you can give less than back in the good old days.

Please. If anything, when it comes to the current rule all you can really say when comparing it to "before" is that we are restricted more in the ability to mask pain in order to show more. Legal drugs like adequan and legend, however, certainly do play a role in being able to show a horse more than in days before these drugs.

On jake's theory, I am not in favor of removing the regulation, but to speak to C. Boylen's point, it is very disturbing on both a competitive level and when considering what is best for the horse to know that all that has happened over the ensuing years is that the pharmacology has become more sophisticated and mostly to the detriment of the animal.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

SGray
Feb. 9, 2004, 09:32 AM
The FEI has contemplated limiting the # of events a horse is allowed to compete in each year.

an excerpt from PHILOSOPHY OF MEDICATION IN EQUESTRIAN SPORT:
AN FEI VETERINARY SEMINAR

"Delegates felt that some system should be sought to monitor and possibly control the number of events that international horses can compete in a season. This is proposed in the welfare interests of horses to limit the prevalence of orthopaedic problems affecting their longevity and long-term performance."

==============================================

In the U.S., in the Dressage discipline, there are now restrictions as to how many classes a horse may enter each day, see Article 1919.2. Horses may compete in no more than one Recognized Competition on the same day(s) and are limited to a maximum of three Dressage rides per day at Fourth Level and below or two Dressage rides per day above Fourth Level....

"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it," --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.

obie
Feb. 9, 2004, 10:44 AM
jr - Interesting concept. I like it. More prestige in the circuits or the shows themselves rather than the end of the year. Although then I am sure people would want ot "rack up" the number of circuit champs etc. But it IS an interesting idea to do away with HOTY points. Combine that with that FEI suggestion in SGray's post and people may save their horses for the best competitons. May be tough on shows, but on the other hand, may be BETTER with more shows offering some sort of prestige. All very interesting and pro-active ideas. Flash44 - you are so right, its a people problem and it can be solved, the federation just needs the kahunas to do it!

Tackpud
Feb. 9, 2004, 11:50 AM
Going off on a tangent - what I would like to see, along with higher fines and longer suspensions, is mandatory attendance at a clinic on the various drugs, their uses and abuses, for persons suspended due to drug use. Teach people about what they are doing to their horses along with punishing them. Until someone offers a realistic alternative and education, improper drug use will continue.

(For clarification - drug use and abuse in horses (not humans) and have it mandatory for the owner as well.)

budman
Feb. 9, 2004, 11:51 AM
I for one believe a partial answer would be lifetime points and awards, such as many breeds already offer. While these awards do not entirely eliminate point chasing, they do minimize the problem. The majority of competitors, without massive bank accounts, can concentrate on a lifetime award for their horse and pinning well at one or two big shows a year. IME, as this is how I showed as a junior, I got incredible satisfaction from those lifetime awards for my ponies. And, placing in the top three at one big show a year was enough to meet my personal goals, as I knew I didn't have the best clothes or tack and I didn't have a trainer.
While I realize I had a very different childhood than most of the juniors showing today, I believe that this is still a viable plan, if the lifetime awards are prestigious enough and difficult enough to attain. In POA's for example, 10-15% of the required points had to be earned at a regional or international show, depending on the award.

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

JEP
Feb. 9, 2004, 12:09 PM
First off, I completely sympathize with the intentions behind these thoughtful and interesting suggestions, and I applaud everyone for putting their heads together and searching for the ways to better protect our horsey loves!

I do, however, tend to shy away from the proposals that seek to limit the number of shows/weeks spent showing etc. that a horse may compete in. While there are horses that do (unforunately) suffer the effects of over-campaigning (I put the top junior horses at the top of this list), I think it is just too simplistic to equate "lots of showing" with "harm to the horse".

There are plenty of situations in which perfectly healthy, happy horses are on the road almost every week of the year. Think about some of those rock-steady, 8 year-old pony hunters at the top of their careers. Sure, they may be "chasing points" to get into Devon and indoors and whatnot, but many of these same ponies happily pack children around, year after year (some into their late teens and 20s!), and have never taken a lame step in a jog. Please don't tell me that all these ponies are drugged-while I'm sure some are, I know of and have ridden many that are not. They are just happy, hearty, little tanks!

Then there's the younger green hunters. These horses are out there, being schooled or showed many, many weeks out of the year, but they're out there for a reason: experience. Many of these horses are young, silly, spooky, and high energy.
Let me tell you something-I would much rather my young horse live on the road for most of the year, being schooled and showed regularly by my pro who has worked out a program to keep him sound and level than have him only go to a show once a month and be high as a kite, running the risk of the dreaded LTD or someone being tempted to give him "just a little something to take the edge off".

Just one other thing...while they may be on the road all year, many of these "point chasers" receive better care on the road than they will anywhere else. Sure, they come from nice barns at home...but how can you beat show care?
These horses are vetrolined and wrapped every time they show. They are kept impeccably clean. They are checked on all day and all night by their grooms, night watchman, etc. Their diets are perfectly monitored. They are grazed and hand-walked on their days off. Every cut, scrape, bump and bruise on their body is immediately attended to.

For those of you that have watched your horse whinny, scream, and try to kick his door down because the trailer in the driveway is leaving and he's not on it, you too can understand why limiting shows may not be the best solution for the show world as a whole.

nelson
Feb. 9, 2004, 12:29 PM
Jake's Dad - you didn't answer Ash's question. She didn't ask what your screen name meant. She asked if you are the father of a trainer that is currently suspended for reserpine use. If you are, then that would give perspective on your input.

Duffy
Feb. 9, 2004, 01:14 PM
nelson, I believe I recall Jake's Dad replying to that question - saying Jake was a horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

"B***h in training"

shade
Feb. 9, 2004, 01:40 PM
jake's dad..what do you think is the major problem in horse showing if it isn't drugs?

again c.boylen you are right on the mark. People have been showing horses all winter for many many years. This is nothing new. And think about it how many times does the horse actually show in a week? Let's say a top jr hunter, maybe 3 days a week tops? At least that's the way it was when I was involved in it. The jr's showed fri,sat & sun. The horses got mon off then were hacked the rest of the week.

Jake's Dad
Feb. 9, 2004, 02:38 PM
shade..we havent solved the drug problem and you want me to give you a biger problem... also there is no way that they will ever limit the amount of shows..you are trying to hit them in the pocket book ..they need money... what i read some where they had a defecit of 1 million...dont ask me what they need it for maybe sending the jumpers to europe...

pwynnnorman
Feb. 9, 2004, 05:47 PM
Jep, I like your comment about the ponies. Three things about them, however, make their situations different from horses: 1.) Their jobs are much, much simpler, 2.) they themselves are very, very smart--smart enough to learn their jobs thoroughly and need very little prep, and 3.) their riders are, in general, much more fearless than adults and so the occasional head shake or buck-up won't result in screaming and fainting, even if the rider has only flown down for the weekend.

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

Black Market Radio
Feb. 9, 2004, 06:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jep:
Just one other thing...while they may be on the road all year, many of these "point chasers" receive better care on the road than they will anywhere else. Sure, they come from nice barns at home...but how can you beat show care?
These horses are vetrolined and wrapped every time they show. They are kept impeccably clean. They are checked on all day and all night by their grooms, night watchman, etc. Their diets are perfectly monitored. They are grazed and hand-walked on their days off. Every cut, scrape, bump and bruise on their body is immediately attended to.

For those of you that have watched your horse whinny, scream, and try to kick his door down because the trailer in the driveway is leaving and he's not on it, you too can understand why limiting shows may not be the best solution for the show world as a whole.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I have something to say about this because I COMPLETELY disagree. My mare lived in a nice box-stall with lot's of shavings at night time, and during the day she was put into a 1 acre pasture with her best buddy and lot's of lush, green wild oats to munch on all day long. She could run, buck and play at will, and just be a horse. She was also ridden 6 days a week, mostly dressage and jumping. She was trail-ridden at least once a week as well. And yes, we did show. Every knick, cut, scrape, hair rub, you name it, was taken care of immediatly. She was monitored day and night as well. She also had her diet perfectly monitored.

How is that better than living in a tiny little stall, only getting hand-walked, grazed and lunged? How is it better to not be able to be a horse most of the time, being isolated, fussed on, messed with and never allowed to get down in the mud and have a good roll and allowed to wallow around?

And BTW, are you sure that the screaming, kicking horse is upset that they are not going to the show, because they may just be upset that their buddy is getting taken away. I am not so sure the horse sits and thinks to himself, "Oh man, I REALLY wanted to go to that show. I think I will scream and kick to get my way. Heck, it works for the human kids!"
Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
Did you bring me a monkey?

[This message was edited by devildog87 on Feb. 09, 2004 at 09:19 PM.]

stop4
Feb. 9, 2004, 06:29 PM
Physically, for a horse, which is worse?
2 courses at 3'6" on a cc of ace or 3 hours of lunging and 2 divisions at atleast 3'6" to get them quite?

I think the horse that doesnt get lunged for two hours and do a pro and jr/am division would be better off.

I never drug my horses and never will but making drug rules stricter will make problems worse not better. Drugs will become more dangerouse and horses will still get lunged everyday.

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Feb. 9, 2004, 06:57 PM
Think many of us stated right at the beginning of this thread, drugging has been in existance for eons. We have made great strides when it comes to horse shows. Their footing, classes, courses, variety etc. But all this comes with a price. People want to win. The competitive spirit is what drives all of us. Some more than others.

If anyone believes there aren't pharmacists working on new drugs somewhere, they are sadly mistaken. Its just a fact. The rules were put into place many years ago. Trying to keep up with all the new potions, is close to impossible. Looking for easy answers won't happen. There aren't any. Making new tests is expensive, and will pull funds from other areas. How much is everyone willing to give up?

Who cares if Jake's Dad is a father of a suspended person or not. They are entitled to post an opinion. Thought thats one of the things, this country stood for, freedom of speech..

Snowbird
Feb. 9, 2004, 07:29 PM
OK! I haven't followed this thread for days. I see 14 pages of it's inevitable, it's better to drug a little than lunge forever. Everybody does it because its an unnatural life for horses.

So am I to understand that you all really believe that it's a fair competition and that its really not bad for the horses? You don't feel cheated if your horse isn't treated that way and loses against a drugged horse?

Battle Scarred Veteran

CBoylen
Feb. 9, 2004, 08:00 PM
Snowbird, frankly; I don't feel cheated. Here's why:
First of all, there are not the legions of illegally drugged horses cavorting about, stealing away with all the ribbons, that one might suppose if one's only contact with the shows is these boards. There are a few. There are a few trainers I would never do business with. Unfortunately, their names aren't on any lists. Most of the people I compete against are honest, hard-working people that I consider friends. If they beat me, I'm usually (grudgingly http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) happy for them. The others, they're living on borrowed time, and they're rarely consistant enough to be a threat. I think that the competition is about as fair as we're going to make it. I do just fine playing by the rules, so I can't see how anyone else can have THAT MUCH of an advantage.
I don't excuse anyone for knowingly and willingly breaking rules (although, I will repeat, I make no judgments upon people without an direct knowledge of circumstances, and I encourage others to do the same), but I also refuse to make excuses for my own failures. Sometimes we do not deserve to win. The judge judges what's in front of them, hopefully fairly and in an educated manner. I can't expect them to have an intimate knowledge of the chemical makeup of the winning animal. Somewhere down the road, it's going to jog behind me, and if it's illegally prepared, somewhere down the road it's going to be caught. I'll concern myself with my own horses, and not waste my time worrying about things I have no control over.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Won2Keep
Feb. 10, 2004, 05:34 AM
The BIGGER Problems than drugs...

Top trainers mailing top judges huge checks when a horse sells even though the judges had nothing to do with the sale. Think about the implications of this. A judge sitting in a booth who a year ago got a check from the rider entering the ring. The judge knows this horse is for sale. Hmmm, price would go up if this horse wins the class. Check in the mail then would be bigger. This is a common practice.

Huge trainer gets caught with the current witch hunt. Client makes a huge donation to USAeq (whatever it is today) and trainer is no longer suspended. Hmmm, if you can buy your way out of suspension it will never be a legal playing field and the top trainers will look for the richest of the rich who can now buy their name off the suspension list.

It goes on and on. Without major reform (also within the USAeq) and thinking WAY outside the box, the hunter world will continue to circle the drain.

Ghazzu
Feb. 10, 2004, 05:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandstone:
Physically, for a horse, which is worse?
2 courses at 3'6" on a cc of ace or 3 hours of lunging and 2 divisions at atleast 3'6" to get them quite?
.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wrong question.
Neither is desirable.
It shouldn't be an either/or proposition.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

Flash44
Feb. 10, 2004, 05:50 AM
Bravo Ghazzu.

Remi and me
Feb. 10, 2004, 07:05 AM
Ok - I just can't resist... The problem is that we live in a society that DEMANDS instant gratification at whatever the cost:$, emotions,hurt and injured people and animals. We also live in a throw away society : if it ain't working now and I can't fix it with drugs or whatever - dump it. Add big dollars to the mix and you have the current big horse show scene. Personally (zipping on flame suit) the problem is never going to be fixed because it has been around too long and too many people have bought into it. Yes, I'm glad that there are rules and regs (even if the enforcement is a joke as are the fines)and I totally support making the owners, trainers, riders and vets hurt when they get caught and set down (as in hurt their wallets). I guess I will stay at the grassroots level of showing and am probably lucky to do that as I don't have big bucks. I have no desire to go to the upper levels as I don't even want to be remotely linked to the chaos that is there. I have two wonderful horses that I have made a commintment too - to care for them to the best of my abilities as they give me a reason to get out of bed in the morning.
And I am grateful to be able to listen in on your discussions and I hope more of the folks at USeq and COTH do too - these folks that use the dope on horses are really not fooling anyone at this stage of the game. Everyone knows what going on. You folks here have the courage to stand up and give your opinions - this is how change starts. Ok -so I'm rambling and I'm very concerned about what we are teaching our young riders. I don't think that legalizing drugs is the answer - rules are supposed to be society's way of leveling the playing field. Consistency of USeq of drug testing and big fines to all those associated with the horse who is found to have the drugs in them might put a dent in the mess. Limiting shows -forget it. There will always be point chasers and those with enough money to chase them and there will always be horses that are overworked and sore or downright lame because of it. You can't change humankind but you can make them think about what they are doing.
Ok - going back to work now. Have a goodday everyone!
Vermont - where winter riders are real riders.

[This message was edited by Remi and me on Feb. 10, 2004 at 10:13 AM.]

stop4
Feb. 10, 2004, 08:26 AM
I dont think that it is an either or situation either. I was just pointing out what happens. The horse that 30 years ago went on a cc of ace and stayed sound for years and years is the horse that today gets lunged for hours and does a pro division so it will be quite for its amateur on the weekend, and that horse wont last nearly as many years. I don't think either is good, it is just how things are different.

I also don't think that the horse world is quite as scandalous as it is represented on this board. If all I did was read this board I would think: all the winners are drugged, big trainers are there because they use drugs not because they are good trainers, you can only win if your at a big barn, the judge always picks the winner on politics not performance. I dont think taht any of those things are true for the majority of shows, yes they happen but they are not as detrimental to the 'average' rider as one might think from reading this board.

When I showed in the jrs, no one had heard of me, my horse or my trainer but when I went to a big show and had the winning trip i still won. When I went to a small local show where me, my horse and trainer were well known, if I didn't have the winning trip I didn't win. So I know politics do happen but I really think that almost every single time, the winning trip will win regardless of who it is.

stop4
Feb. 10, 2004, 08:35 AM
I dont really see this whole problem with loosing to drugged horses because I dont think that it happens very often. It is really easy to loose to a big name and just say their horse must be drugged but what is probably more acurate is that their horse is nicer, they ride more, they are more experienced riders and that is why they won.

Snowbird
Feb. 10, 2004, 10:01 AM
How really interesting that in all the justifications nothing was mentioned about what all this means to the horses.

If it is unnatural to compete week after week after week and that puts the horse in jeopardy why are people doing it? Is it just because there is no rule against it, and it takes a Big Daddy to make us behave better?

If you are competing in a horse show where the horse is judged for performance and soundness then how is what the Owner or even the Trainer needs ever important enough to use medication?

How is it that at the highest levels there is zero tolerance but at the lower levels we all say Oh! Well! that's just the way it is, or it's none of my business, or I don't have time to worry about it.

Please someone explain to me the logic if as we say the horses need to be protected and the medication is abusive and shortens their life causing extreme side effects.

How will we produce winning horses for the High Performance that have to without medications if we are medicating even when they are young. Now, I'm not talking about what we do at home, only what we do in a competition.

If someone can afford to go to Florida for the season why can't they have in addition a few stalls at a newby farm where the horses can be alternated so they do have some play time and don't go sour or stir crazy.

Why do we require a police force to make us take better care of the horses or otherwise we make excuses?

Battle Scarred Veteran

Party Rose
Feb. 10, 2004, 10:26 AM
Only on an occassion have I read bits of this thread.

I have no intention to defend myself for what I am going to say, so don't bother yelling at me. I mearly have a point to make.

In reference to: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Physically, for a horse, which is worse?
2 courses at 3'6" on a cc of ace or 3 hours of lunging and 2 divisions at atleast 3'6" to get them quite? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I more than understand that this is a business. My feelings are that if horses have to be medicated or lunged to death, then they have no business going to a show. Where I came from, and I am in no means putting myself on a pedestal, we never medicated nor lunged our horses in the 60's & 70's, yet we were all competitive and did not have the problems that everyone seems use as an excuse to medicate these days.

Period.

Silver Bells
Feb. 10, 2004, 10:46 AM
The 60's & 70's were different. Nobody counted strides, nobody cared if your horse was strong or played around on course. In fact, "bright, forward, brilliant" trips were the norm.
As time evolved, styles, opinions, and trends changed to an almost robotic way of going.
Drugs were in use then, just as much as they are in use today. There weren't any tests or rules.
Why can't we incorporate the best of both era's minus the prohibited substances?

DMK
Feb. 10, 2004, 10:47 AM
party rose, it's not that I disagree with you. In fact I agree with you 100% and I like to think it is how I approach showing in the 21st century.

But I think at least some of the people have bought up this issue, not because this is their method of show prep, but because they know that no matter what decisions they make, there will still be people opting between two bad choices. And if you have no way of preventing/legislating at least one of those bad choices (LTD), maybe it's worth putting on the table the lesser of two evils (if ace is the lesser evil - I don't know if anyone has made that case yet).

And do I agree that choosing between the lesser of two evils is a damned pathetic place to be? Yup. Am I sure it is is the right solution? Far from it - lots more discussion and studies if it ever were to be seriously considered (doubt that will happen). Is this the first (or last) time in our lives we will be forced to pick between two evils? Please. Don't make me laugh. Or cry, as the case may be.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

Snowbird
Feb. 10, 2004, 10:53 AM
Bravo! Thank you Party Rose, I'm grateful that someone else still alive remembers those days. No Schooling, everyone could jump 3'6" and if a horse needed medication it stayed home.

I've not understood this fetish for the horses are so much better that's why they cost so much more yet the 3'6" divisions are dwindling because suddenly only a few horses can jump 3'6".

The only schooling was before 7:30 AM, outside courses on rolling hills with real grass, and there was no question but a horse could jump 3'6". I remember when a maiden hunter jumped 3'6" and the differences really were "has not won a blue ribbon over fences" because all horse fences were 3'6". How about some of the shows where you waded across a brook to get to the outside course or if you were lucky they had a clickedy wooden bridge.

Yep! horses are so much better today that you don't have to learn to ride and you can be Champion.

DMK you talk about styles and changing times but who changed the style from bright and brilliant to robotic sluggish. Was it the judges? Was it the trainers? was it the riders?
If we can figure that out then maybe we can fix it.

My personal opinion was the emphasis on having to win as a trainer so the horses were "trained" to be smoother and easier to handle.

Battle Scarred Veteran

[This message was edited by Snowbird on Feb. 10, 2004 at 02:10 PM.]

DMK
Feb. 10, 2004, 11:17 AM
Psst, snowbird - that was silver bells talking about styles changing, not DMK.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

Snowbird
Feb. 10, 2004, 11:43 AM
Well thank you DMK; one of the good things about being old is that there is always the built in excuse of oncoming senility.

Excuses are we do now instead of fixing the problems. Choosing between two evils doesn't seem like a viable solution to me. Is there a contagious general depression regarding what's the right thing to do?

Battle Scarred Veteran

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Feb. 10, 2004, 01:48 PM
You're answer Snowbird is YUP. It is depressing. No answers that cover all the bases. No quick fixes.

That grey matter allows us to remember galloping over an outside course. Jumping out, light breeze, you and your horse feeling the rythem, totally enjoying the solitude, solid hunting fences, turning towards home, ending back in the ring once again. Many a good horse played and gave a head shake around those http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Janet
Feb. 10, 2004, 02:05 PM
Beware of rose colored glasses.

I also fondly remember competing over 3'6" outside course in the 60s, and in some ways things were "better". But not necessarily.

I remember that some shows scheduled their Medal Maclay classes so that riders trying to qualify could compete in 2, or even 3, shows in the same day (this was before the mileage rules).

The reason the enforcement measures for the drug rules were introduced was because the existing drug rules were being blaanatly violated.

About the only treatment available for arthritis was bute. And not all arthritic horses got a loving retirement. Some ended up at the auctions.

There are a lot of problems today, but yesteryear was not without its own problems.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Snowbird
Feb. 10, 2004, 02:27 PM
Well Janet, but the truth is all the adults and trainers today loved it so much, that is why they stayed in the sport, just like my family.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I remember that some shows scheduled their Medal/Maclay classes so that riders trying to qualify could compete in 2, or even 3, shows in the same day (this was before the mileage rules).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes! we did because there were so many Medal/Maclay riders that it was difficult to find a class that wasn't over 30 entries. I remember going with one of my daughters to a place called Calicoon Center and a one ring show behind a Firehouse (included a dinner) and there were even 17 entries there. Trying to win four blues was a tough job.

Correction the mileage rule was there and it was 250 miles between A Shows and 75 miles for C Shows.

So if it's better now where are all those Open Junior Equitation Riders? I remember being inundated with entries at the shows not because of show management but too many entries. My oldest daughter won a Maclay at a horse show on the Cherry Hill Race Track that started at 11:55 and finished a 2 AM with over 50 in the class so it had to be split. When or where at any time besides maybe Devon have you seen those kinds of entries in Equitation.

Yes! we had problems, too much of a good thing and not enough shows but a lot of fun because no one took themselves so seriously. A trainer did not think their reputation would be ruined if a student did something stupid or if a horse acted up.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Snowbird
Feb. 10, 2004, 02:39 PM
Ok! so now we have 15 pages of complaining and remembering.

Can we start with constructive ideas of how to fix what's broken and make the best of what's not broken.

We have a problem, winning and competing have become an end unto themselves. Qualifying up the ladder means it's a way to pay the bills.
We cannot however allow that to supercede the welfare of the horses. It is clear that rules are made to be broken.

How can we change the motivation? Maybe there needs to be inbetween steps to qualifying for a prestigious show. Maybe something like winning three blues gets you to level 2, then if you're in the top 10 you get to level three and if you're in the top 20 there you get to qualify.

And perhaps each level should be a level of difficulty. Let's try thinking new concepts and methods.

Battle Scarred Veteran

CBoylen
Feb. 10, 2004, 03:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I've not understood this fetish for the horses are so much better that's why they cost so much more yet the 3'6" divisions are dwindling because suddenly only a few horses can jump 3'6". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where? First week at WEF: 49 younger a/o, 47 older A/O, 30 second years, 63 first years, 20 regulars. 104 total junior hunters. And horses cost more now because EVERYTHING costs more now, not because they're 'better' than the horses of the past. They're the best of today, and if those horses were the best of today, they'd be worth more now too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So if it's better now where are all those Open Junior Equitation Riders? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Erm, have you been to the medal finals lately? It begins at 7am and runs until 6:30pm, with somewhere over 200 entries.
Right now showing at WEF there are 66 eq kids, each competing in the medal, the maclay, and the washington, and a vast majority also showing in the USET. I'm going to assume Indio and Ocala are equally well populated.
I see numbers equal to these at most of the big summer shows.

We don't HAVE outside courses anymore. You have to ride the horse you're on, and now that horse goes in a ring. If we're lucky, our rings won't be sold out from under us as well.

I don't think anyone is getting an accurate picture here from the tones of your posts. The horse world is alive and well. 98% of horses are happy and well cared for. You're focusing on the minority and making it sound like a larger problem than it is, all the while providing bad publicity for YOUR own sport, and discouraging riders, even posters on this BB, from participating.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

woudn'tYOUliketoknow?
Feb. 10, 2004, 04:52 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I've not understood this fetish for the horses are so much better that's why they cost so much more yet the 3'6" divisions are dwindling because suddenly only a few horses can jump 3'6". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where? First week at WEF: 49 younger a/o, 47 older A/O, 30 second years, 63 first years, 20 regulars. 104 total junior hunters. And horses cost more now because EVERYTHING costs more now, not because they're 'better' than the horses of the past. They're the best of today, and if those horses were the best of today, they'd be worth more now too.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> So if it's better now where are all those Open Junior Equitation Riders? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Erm, have you been to the medal finals lately? It begins at 7am and runs until 6:30pm, with somewhere over 200 entries.
Right now showing at WEF there are 66 eq kids, each competing in the medal, the maclay, and the washington, and a vast majority also showing in the USET. I'm going to assume Indio and Ocala are equally well populated.
I see numbers equal to these at most of the big summer shows.

We don't HAVE outside courses anymore. You have to ride the horse you're on, and now that horse goes in a ring. If we're lucky, our rings won't be sold out from under us as well.

I don't think anyone is getting an accurate picture here from the tones of your posts. The horse world is alive and well. 98% of horses are happy and well cared for. You're focusing on the minority and making it sound like a larger problem than it is, all the while providing bad publicity for YOUR own sport, and discouraging riders, even posters on this BB, from participating.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree with Chanda wholeheartedly...I've also been (when I was a junior) to many of Bob Bells Conyers horse shows where I did the eq. and there were over 30 kids in the medal... and that's just an AA show in GA. Also, I'm glad the mileage rule works as it does, because if you have to go to "Ma and Pa's Backyard Horse Show" to qualify for Medal Finals, then maybe you shouldn't be qualifying at all. I DIDN'T qualify my very first year doing the 3'6" because I went with my trainer to all the shows she went to, and MOST of them are larger A shows (I did win my Maclay my first year at 3'6" but that was at a smaller A show) my second year at 3'6"? I qualified- because I had gotten BETTER.

C. Biederman
Feb. 10, 2004, 05:54 PM
Won2Keep:

Plse check your PTs.

CCB

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Feb. 10, 2004, 06:12 PM
Well said Janet!

Silly Mommy
Feb. 10, 2004, 06:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>who changed the style from bright and brilliant to robotic sluggish <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My answer - society as a whole. Everything has become a fast food industry - in a robotic sluggish way. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I too remember the old days, when I rode my $500 OTTB in all the eqs and the junior hunters sometimes on outside courses, but things were transitioning to ring classes at that point.

All things change, not good, not bad, just different. It's those who accept change and are willing to transition with it who are, and will remain successful.

The only thing I don't see changing is the cheating. It hasn't changed one iota in the thirty years I've been part of the show scene - people here seem astonished and amazed - most on the suspension list have done this for many many years - their time was due.

What comes around goes around, and I plan on continuing to run a clean ship and win. Like Chanda said - the drugged ones aren't that consistant, and certainly aren't unbeatable.

Next year I plan on showing my homebred TB Stallion at WEF, and given the ride I had today, they can LTD, drug, hogtie, and paint theirs sparkly purple, they're going to get beat. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.


http://groups.msn.com/WolfdenFarm/shoebox.msnw

Snowbird
Feb. 10, 2004, 08:01 PM
Yo! We changed the frame of reference, good! I'm glad that you can be defensive and that you have something to believe in because that's what we are and what we do. We are dreams of might be and we try to make those dreams come true.

Now, the only question is why do we tolerate the drugging and why does it happen? And, if you believe in what you say then that's OK! But this is the topic of this thread.

Do we believe it is necessary to stop those who do use medication incorrectly? or do we tolerate it with the hope they will self destruct?

Battle Scarred Veteran

Silly Mommy
Feb. 10, 2004, 10:16 PM
Not defensive at all - just the facts ma'am! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And the actual topic of this thread is if it is fair for those suspended to stand outside the "walls" of WEF and still reap the benefits of their puppet "sub-trainers" working within?

As an aside, there is nothing I said that was against going after the cheaters, but if banished, there will be another wave of them with new methods of cheating. Pessimistic? No, REALISTIC! I've been there, and won on clean horses, and will do so again.

Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.


http://groups.msn.com/WolfdenFarm/shoebox.msnw

Janet
Feb. 11, 2004, 06:46 AM
C,Boylen said<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Right now showing at WEF there are 66 eq kids, each competing in the medal, the maclay, and the washington, and a vast majority also showing in the USET. I'm going to assume Indio and Ocala are equally well populated.
I see numbers equal to these at most of the big summer shows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Idon't think the difference is at the BIG shows, but at the non-big shows.

For instance, in the 60s, a "C" rated show would have full classes at
Medal
Maclay
PHA
Open (Separate flat and over fences classes)
Limit (Separate flat and over fences classes)
Novice (Separate flat and over fences classes)
Maiden (Separate flat and over fences classes)

And sometimes even those would be split by age - under 14, under 16, under 18.

I don't see that kind of participation at the smaller shows these days.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

lauriep
Feb. 11, 2004, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
How is it that at the highest levels there is zero tolerance but at the lower levels we all say Oh! Well! that's just the way it is, or it's none of my business, or I don't have time to worry about it.

If you really believe that things are zero tolerance in Europe, please think again. Where do you think we get our designer drugs? Wanna know what the FEI does when one of their big stars are caught? And I mean the BIG stars? They quietly go to them, behind the scenes and say "We caught you, please don't do it again or we may have to take action." The public never knows about this because they don't want the luster of their TV stars dimmed.

How will we produce winning horses for the High Performance that have to without medications if we are medicating even when they are young. Now, I'm not talking about what we do at home, only what we do in a competition.

If someone can afford to go to Florida for the season why can't they have in addition a few stalls at a newby farm where the horses can be alternated so they do have some play time and don't go sour or stir crazy.

Most do this. Either they have paddock space on the grounds, or access to a nearby farm. Not a big deal. And I have to say, I didn't see the first stir-crazy horse while there.

_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Laurie

Janet
Feb. 11, 2004, 11:14 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Wanna know what the FEI does when one of their big stars are caught? And I mean the BIG stars? They quietly go to them, behind the scenes and say "We caught you, please don't do it again or we may have to take action." The public never knows about this because they don't want the luster of their TV stars dimmed.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Not this/last year. Rusty (dressage)is a pretty big star and was set down (for testosterone).

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

LimoWrek
Feb. 11, 2004, 12:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
C,Boylen said<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Right now showing at WEF there are 66 eq kids, each competing in the medal, the maclay, and the washington, and a vast majority also showing in the USET. I'm going to assume Indio and Ocala are equally well populated.
I see numbers equal to these at most of the big summer shows. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Idon't think the difference is at the BIG shows, but at the non-big shows.

For instance, in the 60s, a "C" rated show would have full classes at
Medal
Maclay
PHA
Open (Separate flat and over fences classes)
Limit (Separate flat and over fences classes)
Novice (Separate flat and over fences classes)
Maiden (Separate flat and over fences classes)

And sometimes even those would be split by age - under 14, under 16, under 18.

I don't see that kind of participation at the smaller shows these days.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


C rated shows are dead. The death of the A3 show even made them more dead. Now an 'A' rated show might have less than 150 entries, and still be 'A' rated.


Bring back A3 shows.


Or change it to JUST A rated shows. And make it so MOST shows would be B rated. You know, the ones that have less than 500 entries or something.

----
Limo Wrek.

Janet
Feb. 11, 2004, 12:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> C rated shows are dead. The death of the A3 show even made them more dead. Now an 'A' rated show might have less than 150 entries, and still be 'A' rated. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I DO know that- especially in Virginia. My point is that a "C" rated show from the 60s is ROUGHLY equivalent to a small "A" rated show today, but there are far fewer riders doing equitation classes.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Sing Mia Song
Feb. 11, 2004, 04:53 PM
Somewhere up this page, someone asked for the "answer" to the madness. I don't know about anyone else, but I've found it for myself.

As a kid, I went showing, showing, showing. I chased my buttocks off and qualified for Harrisburg on relatively cheap horse and relatively few opportunites. I had the time of my life, but I never want to show every single weekend ever again.

Now, when I get to show, I take time to enjoy it. It's a truly special event for me. I love the whole preparation and the anticipation leading up to show day, making sure verything is just so. And if it's raining, or it's cold? I stay home.

As Shakespeare said, "The play's the thing." I love show days, but I'll never chase to qualify or to get that year-end award again. This is a hobby, not a job, for me.

Ae we are so goal-oriented that we can't just have fun?

***********************************************
Heaven goes by favor. If it went by merit, you would stay out and your dog would go in.
-Mark Twain

JEP
Feb. 11, 2004, 05:56 PM
Regarding these mysterious "C" shows...I just recently aged out of the junior ranks, and until I started reading these BBs, I didn't even know there were C Shows! I knew there were B shows, as I rode in a couple when I was younger and looking for medal points, but I thought that was as low as they go...

That was back on the East coast. Now I'm in the midwest, and I don't think they even have B shows here. It seems like it's all As or schooling shows, which seem rather pointless, as you can't qualify for anything at them.

This is puzzling to me, as I'm sure there would be a big market for some "middle ground" type shows.

Snowbird
Feb. 11, 2004, 07:57 PM
That's a pity because the Local Show which can recognize the Open Junior Equitation, and the C Rated or B Rated shows are a great place to get mileage and work on your presentation skills.

They are one day usually, very affordable and the perfect place for all those divisions which are not rated by the USEF. You can qualify for the WIHS and the Penn National in jumpers at these shows, conveniently and inexpensively.

Most of these shows are just like a A or AA shows except that since Prize money is not the reason to be there the competition is compatible for these unrecognized divisions. There is really no difference in a Schooling Hunter Class or a Pleasure Class whether its at a C Rated Show or a AA Show. The only divisions affected are the USEF Rated Divisions.

In the east many of the eventual National Champions always show at the C Shows which proves they have the quality without the dollars offered.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Vandy
Feb. 11, 2004, 08:28 PM
I miss the B and C shows! A great place to get mileage - it's where I first started at 3'6" showing in the big eq and the junior hunters. Plenty of folks I knew in New England qualified for the finals (and actually did well!) by riding primarily at the B and C rated shows - much more affordable than the A shows. I always liked them because when I was only showing equitation, it was the Medal, Maclay and USET all in one day, not stretched over a week. And I remember too that the eq divisions were often quite large and competitive there, depending on what A shows were happening in the area at the same time.

I could never have afforded to get as much show mileage as I did when I was starting out if my only choices had been A or unrated.

And if I remember correctly, Snowbird, I went to a few of those shows at your place!

lauriep
Feb. 12, 2004, 06:29 AM
YEs, i am aware of Rusty's story, but my scenario exists also. But you don't hear about it over here...

Laurie

Silly Mommy
Feb. 12, 2004, 06:51 AM
I'm done with these threads - even checking for a quick chuckle. They sound like my husband when he gets on his soapbox and preaches from his little bubble ad nauseum - he can say the same thing twenty times in twenty different ways and thinks that because I still don't agree with him that I don't understand. He puts on his blinders and his earplugs and spews away... BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH... Does HE do anything to correct the problem or find a compromise or even take what I have to say into consideration? Of course not, but I blame it on the Y chromasome.

It's all about perspective, perception, and willingness to be open to new ideas - most of you have those blinders on so tight even you can't see straight. I'm all for change, but all availible options need to be considered.

I get enough of this crap at home, buh bye!!!

Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.


http://groups.msn.com/WolfdenFarm/shoebox.msnw

Janet
Feb. 12, 2004, 07:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
YEs, i am aware of Rusty's story, but my scenario exists also. But you don't hear about it over here...

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, I am SURE your scenario happens with the FEI. And I expect it happens here too. But not every time.

And that is what makes the Rusty story such a big deal.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Feb. 12, 2004, 07:14 AM
The fashionable designer drugs weren"t a USA design. One of the reasons, this will not go away. The FEI, with all it's "zero tolerance" has loop holes as well..No rose colored glasses here... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Peggy
Feb. 12, 2004, 09:35 AM
Although I have no direct experience showing under FEI rules, I have heard rumors of what lauriep describes for years. The German enzyme. High nerving. An assortment of electric devices. So, as Janet wrote, that does make the Rusty testosterone story more interesting.

Based on a lot of years in horses and a few less in teaching, my experience is that some people will find a way to cheat, no matter what the rules are. That doesn't mean that we shouldn't have reasonable rules, enforce them, and play by them. I don't show my horse with performance-enhancing drugs. I do my best to keep my students from cheating on tests (how would you feel if you found out that your doctor cheated his way into and through med school?).

It's amazing if you consider the number of people who are employed to try to keep people obeying the rules (police, IRS agents, drug testers) and the others who spend extra time to try to do the same thing (chemistry profs who write multiple copies of the same exam).

Hmm cheat is an anagram of teach.

Snowbird
Feb. 12, 2004, 09:46 AM
Well Vandy, I'll bet you did. We qualify a surprising number of the winners in those qualifying classes. It is such a pity that everyone thinks a Medal Class or even a Jumper class is better just because it's AA Rated and it costs more to show.

I think that the shrinking USEF Rated Divisions is a statistical fact and it's because the exhibitors don't realize how they've been sold an idea. I certainly can understand going to Florida for the winter if that's what you can afford and the kids don't have to go to school or the Adults don't have real jobs.

Heck! if I didn't have 60 mouths to feed here, I'd probably be there too.

What I don't understand no matter how much people preach is being on the road so much that the horses require medication and that everyone seems to think that it can't be fixed.

Vandy you must remember that even when the kids chased multiple shows they only did 2 classes and in the long run the horses were less stressed than spending months in confined spaces with other horses they don't recognize. We always got them home to bed for a good nights sleep even on the week-ends.

I find this laissez faire attitude toward drugging and medicating very disturbing. But, then maybe I'm just getting old.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Vandy
Feb. 12, 2004, 11:23 AM
An interesting fact, which goes along with Snowbird's idea of show horses living in such an unnatural environment:
My eq horse was stellar at the one day shows and the A-shows which were close enough to trailer in for the day, but when I went to the bigger A-shows I would often borrow a horse to ride in the eq classes because life on the road was just too stressful for my guy. Luckily my trainer/employer had a bunch of sale horses I could use for the eq classes that were already at the show and needed the mileage anyhow. I wanted to save my eq horse for the finals - and more importantly, I wanted him to be healthy and happy for years to come!

As it was, one year he colicked at Harrisburg and another year at USET finals, and we skipped taking him to Florida for this reason. It takes a toll on a lot of them, even the best ones! (the year he colicked at Harrisburg we were called back to test in the medal). This horse showed in the 3'6" eq finals well into his teens.

There have always been eq horses that are "saved" for the bigger shows and the finals; unfortunately campaigning a hunter is not conducive to this type of schedule. But perhaps there would be more "Grappas" if more horses were treated like Grappa and not carted around to every show under the sun!

Snowbird
Feb. 12, 2004, 04:40 PM
I don't think I understand this "well, they always do it", and "there's just a few" but it seems to be a lot of our top competitors. Or the tolerance for all the excuses.

Why is there almost an acceptance of it's OK?

Battle Scarred Veteran

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Feb. 12, 2004, 04:50 PM
Not so Snowbird. There isn't an acceptance of this. Its understanding that this problem will not vanish tomorrow. It has a history. Cleaning up the proverbial house is not black & white. We say on one hand, that x amounts of nsaids are okay. Then we say on the other, that anything that changes a horses way of going is prohibited. Now, if I told this to a non horse person, what do you think they might say? Given that they fully understood nsaids.

Snowbird
Feb. 12, 2004, 05:38 PM
Well I'm trying to understand but it seems I have a bigger generation gap than I thought. When I was growing up we were taught if there's a problem "Fix It". There is nothing that is a wrong that can't be fixed if people really want to do it. No not by tommorrow or even next week but pacification has never been some part of my thinking.

In the history that I have lived whenever people have tried to compromise what was right with good excuses it usually grew into a nightmare. You have no idea how much I resent being told to supply sharps boxes for the needles that are not supposed to be used. Now, I'm not talking a 5 day show or a month of showing but one day C Shows. I don't want to be in an evironment where that's acceptable and I don't want children to think it acceptable, but if the very best do it how do you explain that to the children?

That to me is a concession with evil.

Battle Scarred Veteran

DMK
Feb. 12, 2004, 06:05 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Snowbird:
You have no idea how much I resent being told to supply sharps boxes for the needles that are not supposed to be used. Now, I'm not talking a 5 day show or a month of showing but one day C Shows. I don't want to be in an evironment where that's acceptable and I don't want children to think it acceptable, but if the very best do it how do you explain that to the children?

That to me is a concession with evil.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OMGiH. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Look, whether you agree with the current rule or not is another topic for another day. But the point remains that it is perfectly LEGAL to give certain medications via injection (bute, legend, adequan, banamine and robaxin to name the more common ones). Now maybe there is less need for it at a one day C show on the top of a hill with mostly ship ins, but th epoint remains that it is stil LEGAL, not immoral and certainly NOT a concession with evil.

Now what I would consider to be EVIL and extremely irresponsible is to not provide sharps containers, leaving your less than knowledgeable patrons to drop sharps in the trash. Exactly how would you feel if you were a person picking up that trash and pricked yourself with a needle that obviously had blood on it. You wouldn't know that it was horse blood and not potentially HIV infected human blood.

Can you imagine living with that fear? Better yet, can you imagine being responsible for that kind of fear? Hopefully the children realize that the rule is far ahead of your views when it comes to ensuring the safety of all.

"People demand freedom of speech to make up for the freedom of thought which they avoid." - Kierkegaard

JEP
Feb. 12, 2004, 06:40 PM
Sounds like there were a lot of positive things about these C shows! However, IMHO, the era of top, national champions showing at these one days is probably done, at least for now (of course there are exceptions! please don't flame me!)...

Today, top juniors "save" eq points/medals to win at the biggies, like Devon. It certainly speaks highly of horse and rider to win in that company! Trainers also have to make a living, and much of that is earned at the longer AAs, (day care, training, rides, horse sales, etc.).

Most importantly, there are many (that aren't point hungry, horse drugging monsters)that simply love to be on the road!
Big, fun classes/classics; giving horses a day to settle and not walk off a truck into the ring; exhibitor parties; the Tuesday lessons; the big rings; quality footing and judges; stalls to lie down in; seeing "horse show friends" from other states; watching/learning from pros; wide range of classes...

I love all of the above (and more!), and I love riding my horse who isn't grumpy and bored from riding in the same ring day in, day out, yet not stiff/tired from being on the truck b/c he gets at least a night/day/days to rest before showing!!!