Rude Competitive Trail Riders

[andie]

Are CTR riders exempt from the basic rules of trail riding “etiquette?” The reason I ask is that last Friday I took my horse, who can get rather “hot”, for a trail ride at Fair Hill, Md. There was a CTR event going on that day, but the trails were being shared by CTR riders and pleasure riders alike. On three different occasions, I had CTR riders come barreling up behind me at speed, without announcing themselves or slowing down or asking permission to pass. At one point, I was heading up a narrow single track trail with a steep slope on one side and a sharp bank on the other when a group of CTR riders came charging up the hill. My horse got very agitated, began bucking, rearing, spinning and blowing sideways – a very unsafe situation for both of us. These riders did not slow down, despite the fact that I was obviously in trouble. I yelled at them to please walk, and told them I’d pull off the trail and let them pass as soon as I could find a spot to exit, which I did very quickly. They blew on past, again despite the fact that my horse was wheeling and spinning while pulled off into a little niche on the trail so that they could pass. A similar scenario happened two more times during the course of my ride. I’ve always understood that good trail riding etiquette includes the following rules: #1 – Always slow down when approaching other horses. #2 – Ask for permission to pass another horse/rider on narrow trails. #3 – Announce yourself when coming up behind another horse/rider. There are a few others, but seems to me these 3 in particular help to insure the safety of everyone involved. The CTR riders I encountered at Fair Hill put both my horse and myself in jeopardy w/their behavior. I recognize that they are involved in a competition, but they stop to give their horses drinks & short breaks during the ride, so surely they can take a minute or two to insure the safety of fellow trail riders. Any thoughts??

[andie]

Are CTR riders exempt from the basic rules of trail riding “etiquette?” The reason I ask is that last Friday I took my horse, who can get rather “hot”, for a trail ride at Fair Hill, Md. There was a CTR event going on that day, but the trails were being shared by CTR riders and pleasure riders alike. On three different occasions, I had CTR riders come barreling up behind me at speed, without announcing themselves or slowing down or asking permission to pass. At one point, I was heading up a narrow single track trail with a steep slope on one side and a sharp bank on the other when a group of CTR riders came charging up the hill. My horse got very agitated, began bucking, rearing, spinning and blowing sideways – a very unsafe situation for both of us. These riders did not slow down, despite the fact that I was obviously in trouble. I yelled at them to please walk, and told them I’d pull off the trail and let them pass as soon as I could find a spot to exit, which I did very quickly. They blew on past, again despite the fact that my horse was wheeling and spinning while pulled off into a little niche on the trail so that they could pass. A similar scenario happened two more times during the course of my ride. I’ve always understood that good trail riding etiquette includes the following rules: #1 – Always slow down when approaching other horses. #2 – Ask for permission to pass another horse/rider on narrow trails. #3 – Announce yourself when coming up behind another horse/rider. There are a few others, but seems to me these 3 in particular help to insure the safety of everyone involved. The CTR riders I encountered at Fair Hill put both my horse and myself in jeopardy w/their behavior. I recognize that they are involved in a competition, but they stop to give their horses drinks & short breaks during the ride, so surely they can take a minute or two to insure the safety of fellow trail riders. Any thoughts??

[Equibrit]

gothedistance - thats pure cr-p!

Coming through - don't care if I endanger your life - I'm in a competition.

You have to be kidding me!

Either they close the competition trails to the general public, or they observe common courtesy.

[Equibrit]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothedistance:
Tough luck, sweetie. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I won't rise to your bating cr-p. Seen too much of that from you to others on the board.

I know the sport, I ride the sport. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>



FIGURES!

[saratoga]

I'm surprised that that happened to you. Most CTRs are relatively slow so no one should be racing and most people I've encountered, even at endurance rides (well, I ride in the middle to back so I can't speak for those racing) are generally very polite and willing to help anyone on the trail.

gothedistance- your attitude is scary. I manage a CTR, which goes through a State park and other trails shared by various other users and I tell everyone at the ride meeting that they dang well better respect everyone they see on the trail. Meaning slow down, don't crowd anyone, run up on anyone, etc. If my CTR riders thought that just because they were competing, that gave them free rein to do whatever they wanted on the trail, guess what- the ride would be canceled because we would not be allowed to hold it on State Land. I get a lot of pressure to put on an AERC ride and I frankly won't do it because I am leery of the racers thinking they can just mow down anyone. Not saying I think it would happen, but to me it poses a risk that I don't want to take.

I agree that it is probably not a good idea to ride your horse when you know there is a competition going on, especially a green horse or one with issues. Just common sense, but no excuse for rude people, regardless of whether they are pleasure riding or riding in a competition.

[chicamuxen]

Andie and gothedistance, you both have good points. I was competing at Fair Hill on Sat. It was a one, two or three day CTR ride. Most people would have been easier on you Andie then the ones you encountered, especially on a narrow trail. On the other hand when out in the open I would also assume that another competitor would be able to be passed at a trot by going out and around them and giving them a holler once I was close enough to be heard. It's part of this type of competing that you are going to be passed by horses trotting maybe even galloping but it should be done with some care and courtesy. Fair Hill is different from many venues in that it has lot's of pleasure riders on the trails but you can't necessarily tell the difference between a competitor or pleasure rider until you're next to them. I must say the ride manager never thought to remind folks to be aware of this scenario.

On the other hand, as a competitor it did occur to me that it would have made sense given the huge number of trails for some of the bike riders and hikers to just not follow the trails that had all those ribbons on them. Then I realized that they just didn't realize how many horses would come down the trail at them. I passed every one not competing at a walk and mentioned that there were a lot more horses coming behind me. I say thanks, have a greak, hike/ride/etc and hustle along. And believe me, with the trail laid out I was hustling for the full 30 miles.

By the way, it was my boy's first entry in a CTR after drag riding several of them. He was Reserve Grand Champion and was give a gorgeous embroidered fleece cooler. I was so tickled! I ran into ground bees at one point with a group of riders and most of us got stung then poured on by a big cloud burst. A friend had a really rough day of it with a fall in the river, loss of new sponge down the river and multiple stings. She got the hardship award AND the Grand Championship award. I was so pleased for her. She was in tears as it's this older mare's first "win".

Next ride in two weeks will be the Allegany Sut Up and Ride endurance in NY. Mouse is finally moving up to a 50 mile distance.

Chicamuxen

[herptile]

I agree with gothedistance.I trail/pleasure ride alot alone,and I am allways aware if the trails I am riding on are used for a competition of any type I must give way to those riders.I event at the lower levels and if I were to encounter anyone on course I would certainly expect them to stay out of my way.If your horse has problems with other horses passing in any capacity,maybe you should stay on quieter trails untill he is more settled.

[prudence]

This is a problem. I have been riding and found myself in the middle of a 50 mile run (human). I immediately got out of the way and used another route. Around here there is usually a sign posted a few weeks before a ride stating what is going to happen when. I was on an endurance ride however in the SF bay area where there was no avoiding pedestrians, baby strollers, etc. We were told to walk by and be as polite as we could. However, while doing this past a couple of women they started shouting me about why I could leave manure on the trail and they had to pick up after their dog. They were really irate. I am almost disappointed that my horse did not prove their point while I was riding past. But most people, particularly kids, love to see the horses.

[3fatponies]

I am going to have to agree with gothedistance--as a rider, whether casual or competitive, it is your job to keep your horse under control, not everyone else's. If your horse wigs out at being passed by people competing in a timed ride, then two things have happened: 1. you have gotten some valuable training for your horse and 2. you may be more aware of avoiding those trails during future competitions, or dismounting and holding your horse if you find yourself in that situation again.

While the three rules are good for general trail riding, I do not think that it is fair to apply them in the case of a pleasure rider choosing to follow the same trails while a CTR event is occuring.

It puts me in mind of a situation when a charity ride at the local park was scheduled and one of the park's neighbors was sighting his gun for hunting season the same day. A lot of the riders were furious and complained, but the man was on his own property and within his rights, no matter how upsetting it was to the horses. Sometimes it is simply best to treat these things as training exercises and not take it personally.

[Alagirl]

Sorry folks, saftey first, competition second...

If I get hung out on a narrow trail with no way out, I'd like to be not pressured into taking a leap off the cliff...

I have been left out to dry by my cousin (non competition situation) after I had announced my approach he took off, he**bend for leather. I had a good horse or otherwise I could have been roadkill!

Ain't gonna cost you nothing to holler quickly that you're comming...makes for better PR than a few casualies along the way, even if the nincompoops should've stayed off the marked trails and ride someplace else...

[RTM Anglo's]

Oh my! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

I so agree with gothedistance I could jump up and dance. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Please people; your horse is your responsibility! Pure and simple. I take my chances, and you take yours.... don’t hold others responsible for lack of training. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Sure it is annoying to be passed by moving horses, but it is your problem, not theirs.

Try doing CTR with the endurance riders! Ahahhahahaa I have been on both sides of that one. “Us” endurance riders will blast right by your butts. OK, I always say "coming up behind"...then "passing left", but if your horse is a complete idiot, and there is room to pass safely, sorry...but I'm passing.

I am on the other side, I find it really annoying to find people on the trail that have no business being there because they have not put that type of training into their horse. This is not the experienced riders fault but yours. You could always put several green streamers in the mane and tail, which you should if your horse is not trained to trail.

I did a CTR last year, and passed the same woman on a huge appy several times. She allowed her horse to have bad manners. Swung all over the trail in the hind and acted up really bad – striking and kicking. She had the nerve to act as though this was my problem. Good lord...I said coming up behind and passing please enough to turn red. She expected me to stay 100 yards back, and pass on her terms. PLEASE, this is competition, and she is NOT my problem.

After about the end of the first day, I didn't give a damn what she had to say. Scream and moan all you want "she was a major hindrance to the entire ride". Her horse struck out, and had no manners at all. Finally ride management told her to keep "HER" horse away from others and quiet down...as her BIG mouth was getting on everyone’s nerves. Should have heard her every time you passed. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

I so understand being on the novice horse, as I have trained many. It is my problem when training, and NOT the others on the trail. I take the chance by bring a green horse onto the trail, not the experienced riders who have to put up with my "rude, untrained, horse".

There are two sides to the coin. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Gothedistance just explained it like an adult, and nothing more. The reasons, the common sense, and the biggest one...being responsible for yourself.

Bottom line...don't take your horse anywhere that you have not trained them for...OR where you might feel uncomfortable. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Please no disrespect to the OP, or others...but I do have a pet peeve in this department. Sorry, but horses are LARGE animals, and very capable of hurting themselves and others. When you take the responsibility of owning one, you also take the responsibility of caring for them. I get so tired of people who have owned horses for several years, and never master this.

It's called training. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Why the Hell would you put yourself in a situation where you could get hurt, or someone else? Sure there are trail etiquette rules, but do you see Nascar drivers asking to pass? NO…and the reason is…common sense. It is a race, and if you don’t move faster than the person behind you…they are going to pass. Do they need to announce themselves? NO…because it is intuitive that they are coming. Be prepared, and follow trail rules by having a trained horse, and taking responsibility for your horse, and yourself, and your choices.

I have seen many young and novice horses start their careers out in endurance. At the start these horses are swinging and jumping, bucking and snorting. When the race starts…their riders are responsible to hang on, not others to stand still so these horses can settle down. Training. OR like gothedistance said…remove yourself from the situation.

[Equibrit]

If you want to hold a competition do it on a CLOSED trail. That way the rest of us don't have to put up with your rudeness. If you are going to share public trails then you have to SHARE. (that could mean sharing with somebody training their horse)

[saratoga]

A CTR or endurance ride being held on public land open to everyone CAN NOT be compared to NASCAR or even the XC phase of an event. I'm not speaking specifically about Fair Hill, as I don't know anything about it, but the majority of endurance rides and CTRs are held on public land, state parks, etc, and other riders, hikers, bikers, birdwatchers, etc. have every right to be there and DO NOT always know what is going on.

If an old lady walking her chihuahua gets hurt by some a@@&^%$ blasting past her, going for the $2 ribbon, there is a good chance the right to use these trails could be taken away for the competition and even for horses in general. Telling the park ranger, "well, I was going for Top Ten- that old hag had no right to be in my way", is not going to cut it. It won't kill you to slow down for a minute, ask if it is okay to pass, and offer assistance if you think the person needs it. The vast majority of riders do this anyway, from what I've seen.

Yes, someone who intentionally takes a green horse or problem horse on a trail being used in a competition, when they could use other trails, is not being very smart, but most people I've seen during endurance rides are doing their own thing and really don't know what the heck we are doing. Its nice to slow down and talk to them and foster some good will. Folks, common courtesy on both sides really will benefit everyone.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:
Please people; your horse is your responsibility! Pure and simple. I take my chances, and you take yours.... don’t hold others responsible for lack of training. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more, and that is from a pleasure rider(though I hope to move into CTR in the future)! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[saratoga]

I agree that it is downright foolish to intentionally ride on a trail being used for a competition, especially when you know what the competition is all about and you could easily choose another trail, but the bottom line is safety for everyone is the most important thing. If I came upon someone on the trail whose horse was acting up, even if I thought they were an idiot for purposefully putting themselves in that situation, I would still slow to a walk and do whatever I could to not make matters worse. It really is not much skin off my back.
BTW, we do pay the State Park to use their land but I still consider it a privilege and not a right.

[katarine]

I get sick to death of putting up with other horse's holes- you intentionally set out to play in a crowded, busy sandbox and got some kicked in your eyes. You are darn lucky you and your horse didn't hurt somebody. YOu rode on a marked course, knowing your horse comes unglued about too much activity? You asked for trouble and got some, there you go.

Sorry, no sympathy from this chick and I'm just a trail rider- you could have left.

[Sabina]

Since you were using a public venue that was not closed off to the general public the day of the competition, you have a right to expect ALL users of the trail to behave in a courteous manner. These actions were not courteous and did not meet the standards of safe trail usage. I would encourage you to get the numbers of the perps, er, CRT participants who were doing this, and the name of the group running the CRT, and complain to the sponsoring organization, to NATRC, AND to whoever runs the the park or recreation area you were riding in.

There's a great big FAT DIFFERENCE between a race and a timed, judged competition which is partially scored on "horsemanship", and any competitors who are harassing other non participant riders in a public venue, no matter what the excuse is, need to be severely penalized. I've ridden on trails when endurance rides were going on, and endurance riders are a heck of a lot politer and that's an actual race. This incident is just supposed to be a timed trail ride. Unfortunately, you did not have a horsemanship judge hiding in the bushes when you were getting shagged, to be taking points off. Those people doing this KNOW it's wrong, and it's bad horsemanship, and they are doing it anyway out of arrogance.


If they can't behave in a responsible manner, they need to either close off the park completely to the public, or be banned from future use, because this is not just a bunch of your typical redneck beer drinking fools out running yahoo tree bending games but an organized, private competition using public property. The park probably assumed that since it was a horsemanship competition, all participants would heed the rules/regulations of the venue, It's the same reason we don't allow teenagers to do street racing with hotrods in subdivisions because the roads are public, there are rules for driving a car, like speed limits, and pedestrians could be killed. It's the same reason they close the roads off to car traffic when they have human marathons and half marathons, because humans are slower than cars. It's the same reason dogs on park trails must be leashed out here...the animals are expected to be kept under control and not running wild.

If you're just running your horse wild past somebody, you've got a problem, not the turtle, and I don't care how color coordinated your tack is.

We have many multi use trails out west here, with bicycles, motorbikes, horses, and hikers all using many the same trails, and you may even find hunters in the wildlife areas, and any user of the trails is expected to not cause others grief, and that includes being courteous, announcing your presence, and passing in a safe manner.

[Sleepy]

Thank you, Sabrina. At last a voice of sanity. I was just thinking that all competetive trail riders must be a rude bunch, just based on the replies to this topic.

[3fatponies]

I suppose it is also a matter of perspective--I have seen plenty of people trail riding who seem to be unable to control their horses, and who expect everyone around them to adjust their behavior/actions for them. Uh, no. While I won't go off galloping with a newbie behind me, I also expect a certain realism in the riders I encounter. Horses spook, buck and rear in certain circumstances, and that's all part of the deal, as is your perception of what behavior constitutes that--I have seen riders so fearful that, despite their ability, they were unable to cope with a baby buck, and would immediately dismount, wailing that their horse was acting like a bronco.

So not being there, who knows the real story? But keeping that in mind, if I were trotting by in a competition and someone started screaming at me to stop and wait for them to mosey on along, I probably would ignore them, too.

Maybe that is rude, but in my mind, an entitlement mentality is pretty rude, too.

[ComingAttraction]

This is a general observation, not directed at anyone, so please don't go a gettin your feathers ruffled. I'm just trying to have a discussion.
Manners are nice but something that is lacking in most people these days. We are all too quick to bit@^ and moan. Unfortunatly when you are riding on a marked coarse and not in the race (whether its runners, mountain bikers, horses, carriages etc.) you need to look out.

I have ridden 1000's of miles of trails and can always hear a horse coming up behind me. If I don't want people riding up behind me I take a new trail. Not a lot of open space left, can't we share without getting our panties in a twist?If you choose to stay on a marked competition trail lose the "i'll show them attitude."

More people do need to realize that they are responsible for how their horses behave and their horses training. If your horse can't take that much action the common sense thing to do would be to remove your horse from the situation. Stop putting everyone in danger. It seems common sense, if you have a horse that is acting up, then you deal with it...not everyone else...its not their problem, its yours.

Just a bit of advice...do not ride green/nervous horses on the most crowded days (weekends) take them out during the week (if possible) to get them used to the park and trails. If this is not possible stick to open fields, where passing is not a problem or travel the less travelled paths. If you have to ride on the weekends and the park is crowded, well then you know what you are in for. Either suck it up or pack it in.

[3fatponies]

Well said, ComingAttraction. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I think it is similar to riding on the roads--while it would be great to trust that everyone will slow down and keep in mind a horse's "unstable" behavior, it's not practical to expect that, and counting on it could get you killed. Whether or not you are right, it won't change the fact that you are dead. So rather than risk your neck, be smart and train your horse to be road safe to all manner of traffic to begin with.

[RTM Anglo's]

It has nothing to do with being rude, it is called being realistic! No one said riders were blasting by with no comment. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

What a witch hunt! ahahaaaa http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

I will tell you - I have done endurance rides where riders purposely sneak up on you to pass at a moments notice. I don't find it rude, I expect it! OH MY http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Honestly, if you have a problem with control over your mount, then the issue is yours alone. No one else’s. What choices you make when entering onto public property is your own and yours alone.

If you are uncomfortable with how your horse is trained...why would you place yourself in a bad situation? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

IMHO the horses that act-up when other horses are passing.... are horses that learned they can act that way and get what they want from it. Be it their rider gets upset, or the other horses have to stop until “they” get supposed control. The other horses stopping only reinforce the behavior, as the bad acting horse now has control. This is a game, and if the rider cannot understand that...well then you don't understand horses mind sets. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Horses are competitive by nature, and always want to have the last word. They are further reinforced by the power of their riders. If the rider expects others to stop for them...well then so does their horse.

There is absolutely no reason a rider can not pass another...and it is not rude to expect the rider of a horse you are about to pass is trained and not a danger to them. Honestly people...we are talking about out-of-control horses and expecting people that have bothered to train their horses to take responsibility. Talk about the cart in front of the horse.

And comments made here to lockout people considered rude, for people that don't bother to train their horses is ridiculous! Talk about wasting managements time, state time, and making problems out of nowhere! That talk is stupid! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gifJust be responsible for yourself, and there is no problem.

Know what is expected of you before you comment yourself to riding in public! Ignorance is no exception to the rule. Don't blame others for problems you are causing. This is in no way rudeness on others parts for not catering to your lack of preparation.

If everyone took care of himself or herself here...we wouldn’t have a problem now would we?

[andie]

Wow, "gothedistance", I don't know how you came to this conclusion: "But, what she *did* say is very important to why I answered as I did -- she said outright she KNEW she was riding a trail that was being used on the competition, and she said she REMAINED on the trail despite having her horse freak out at the first instance of riders coming up on her at a trot. "

Please re-read my post. In fact, I arrived at Fair Hill that day with NO KNOWLEDGE that a CTR event was going on. If you ride there (which I do often), you know that many types of events are held there, and that trail markings may indicate anything from a biking event to a nature hike. In fact, I DID NOT KNOW that there was a CTR event going on until AFTER I encountered the first group of riders on the very narrow uphill trail FROM WHICH THERE WAS NO WAY TO EXIT (again, please re-read my post for the facts.) After this incident, I ran into a park ranger and I asked him what was going on. He told me about the CTR event, but also told me that all the riders were pretty much through the course, and told me that I was at a point from which I probably wouldn't encounter any more riders.

Also, THIS WAS NOT A CLOSED COMPETITION COURSE. I would never dream of riding my horse on the Fair Hill International CLOSED cross-country course, but it seems to me that if a competition course is also open to other recreational users (not just riders, but hikers, bicyclists, dog-walkers, etc), it is incumbent on the competitors to treat fellow recreational users with respect and to keep the SAFETY of all other users in mind.

Frankly, I am appalled by the attitude of many of the respondents here, particularly towards a rider who may be having difficulty with a horse. A couple of weeks ago, I was riding out at Fair Hill w/some friends during a bicycle race. This race was also not held on a closed course, but on trails being shared by everyone. I can tell you that we passed probably a hundred bicyclists that day, and every single one slowed down or stopped when they saw horses coming, said "hi" and asked if it was OK to come past our group of horses. They showed simple, basic courtesy and respect for the safety of all trail users. Some of you could take a lesson...

[3fatponies]

Andie, why did you ask for thoughts on your experience if you only wanted to accept the ones that supported your opinion? It's unfortunate that you seem to be taking this personally, as I doubt that was anyone's intention. It was certainly not mine. I would think that differing opinions make for an opportunity to consider viewpoints other than your own, which might be helpful if you find yourself in this type of situation in the future. Oh well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[fotie]

So let me see, these people are competing for points and ribbons, against the clock and they have to ask your permission to pass at which you grant them access? Maybe you should check to see what is going on first before you impose your rules on people who have just as much of a right to be there as you do. If you need a quieter place (which I need myself) do as I do and go somewhere where there are not as many things going on (a more controlled environment).

[Sabina]

Let me reiterate, for those of you who are actually still showing the "Entitlement" attitude in this thread, that just because you're using an open public venue for a private competition, it doesn't mean you now own the facilities and get to literally run over and past any other users because YOU could not rate your horse properly, not the turtle, and then expect to be understood and applauded for it.

I understand the desire and the need you feel to screw up other's horse's Pulse and Respirations at the checkpoints, but when you inflict your strategy upon innocent bystanders and passerby's, you're going too far. They aren't "in the game." They aren't playing.

I also expect a certain realism in other riders, including CRT riders, and that is that the safety of the other riders supercedes your ego and desire for a blue ribbon. You don't have the right to deliberately spook any other horse.

Any fool can make a horse go fast. Can you make a horse go good?

[fotie]

DON'T complain about going to a public venue and expect everyone to follow YOUR rules. Public means everyone either you suck it up or don't go!!

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sabina:

You don't have the right to deliberately spook any other horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe I missed it, but what did anyone do to deliberately spook a horse? Passed it on the trail?? I am a bit confused as to that accusation, as it implies a detailed knowledge of the actual event, not to mention the certainty that it was "deliberate." And the simple fact that multiple groups of riders did it also makes it seem rather questionable that they were all engaged in a conspiracy to screw up other people's horses. It sounded to me like they were just riding in a timed event, and kept moving to get out of the way of a potential accident and to complete the course as planned.

I don't know, I wasn't there, but to say that they were trying to cause grief to another horse person on purpose seems a little questionable to me.

[Equibrit]

From the ECTRA rulebook;2.
A contestant should ask to pass, should not pass in an unsafe area, and should pass at a gait other than a canter or gallop.

[fotie]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif 3fatponies http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
From the ECTRA rulebook;
A contestant should ask to pass, should not pass in an unsafe area, and should pass at a gait other than a canter or gallop. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, I am confused by the assumption that is what happened. Perhaps we are guilty of projecting in our responses to this thread, myself included, but I don't recall a specific mention of canter or gallop. Nor do I think we would all agree on what constitutes an "unsafe area," since we all have differing experiences to draw from. I have seen some horses with an outstandingly fast trot, much faster than most horses canter, so I was not automatically assuming that galloping(or cantering) was the gait used by the CTR riders.

[Tierrainney]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by fotie:
DON'T complain about going to a public venue and expect everyone to follow YOUR rules. [QUOTE]

No, but nor does it being a public course absolve anyone of personal responsibility. It is an individual's responsibility to train and control his horse. It's also an individual's responsibility to treat other users of a trail with courtesy and to act in a safe manner. If you see that a horse is acting up, then riding past in a way that exacerbates the situation is not all right.

It's not about rules. It's about people treating others with respect. Everyone makes mistakes. Even if you believe someone else is doing something wrong or stupid or inappropriate, that doesn't make it okay for you to do something wrong or stupid or inappropriate.

[Pistol 'n' Me]

Perhaps I'll show my 'newness' to the sport (I've been doing the sport for 4 years, but barely have 400 miles combined LD and endurance), but I don't think there is any reason for riders to act this way with each other.

In my mind, safety is ALWAYS first, be it horse or rider, competitor or not. I've ridden on trails during competitions and training and come across non-competitors on the trail. I take extra caution with these horses, because they may not be used to having horses trot by. I always ask to pass, or if there isn't room, I wait and ask to pass when space is available.

As the amount of riding trails dwindles, I think it's especially important to be considerate to other trail users. Rude remarks or actions to others could cause complaints and lessen our chance of using those trails again.

What's the difference in a group of riders coming up on a horse walking a slope - that horse could just have easily have been in the competition. Would riders have acted the same way? I would hope that in the event that I was having a lot of trouble with my horse's behavior other riders would be considerate to me. Usually I find, they are.

I've found distance riders to be some of the best people I've met. Almost always helpful and considerate, that I hate to hear stories where non-distance riders have bad experiences.

[Chaser]

Interesting thread.

I just read in Horse and Hound this week (or possibly it was last week) that several riders got eliminated in a competition in the UK for riding without due regard for stock and one for ignoring the request of a land owner to slow down.

The scenario outlined in the OP seems worse than this. That rider or their horse could have been seriously injured or worse. Fine if everyone is on the same page and all are competing - presumably then you are prepared to take the risk. But in this case, the trail wasn't closed to the public.

I am shocked, actually, to read some of the comments here. Seems like getting a rosette comes before someone's life or that of their horse.

[Equibrit]

Its the American way (unfortunately)- and if you do manage to win - then you MUST have been right! Win at all costs!

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I just read in Horse and Hound this week (or possibly it was last week) that several riders got eliminated in a competition in the UK for riding without due regard for stock and one for ignoring the request of a land owner to slow down.

The scenario outlined in the OP seems worse than this. That rider or their horse could have been seriously injured or worse. Fine if everyone is on the same page and all are competing - presumably then you are prepared to take the risk. But in this case, the trail wasn't closed to the public.

I am shocked, actually, to read some of the comments here. Seems like getting a rosette comes before someone's life or that of their horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifBig difference between private land uses than public land. Sure if you don't respect his wishes on his land there will be a problems. In the UK, there is limited land, so to get private landowners permission means to follow the rules of the owner.

This is so different it isn’t funny.

This is as always in life...two sides. We have the conservative which feel everyone must hold everyone else’s hand and be "good and kind" so very unrealistic. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif Then we have the hard-butt people, the realistic people. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif You are responsible for your choices. You are only in a situation because you placed yourself there.

Come on folks. There is no problem here except a horse that is not trained to trail, and expects to use a public trail.

I have had bicyclers spook my horse worse. And we don't expect that bikers cannot use the trail. This has nothing to do with winning a blue ribbon...it has to do with allowing others to use space, and not control them.

We cannot control the world! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifWe can only control ourselves. Rules, and regulations that are made past the point of being useful are plain stupid. Common sense comes in and really...we need to see it for what it is.

A horse that is incapable of allowing another horse to pass is a hindrance to all. Keep your horse in a show ring where all is controlled and a judge will see all then. Gosh, I have seen shows where horses pass each other throughout the class, as all can't keep the same pace. IS THAT RUDE??? I think not. If your horse can't accept that...then you are pulled from the class.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gifWhere are you people coming from that expect all others to bow down to your ill-trained animals. Lets use our imagination and think of what the trail would be like if a bunch of silly horses and their self-centered riders rode on the land. Hmmmmm what a site.

Are we to say excuse me...may I pass. Or should I stand here and wait while you compose yourself and your mount? How about I just ride with you all day, as your horse is afraid? Please....you all make me laugh. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

What about training your horse? Hmmmm that seems to be the obvious answer to me. You know, the person who is causing all the problems takes care of their own issues without expecting others to take time out of their day to cater to the dysfunctional.

Where are you people coming from that you feel it is rude to pass another? Good Lord...what do you expect? There is a point to being courteous...I don't discount that. But there is also a point of being "rude" by projecting your untrained animal onto the public to deal with...as you obviously can't.

We are not socialists! Good lord

This talk of closing trails and rides for the sake of a few people that are too lazy to train their horses is crap! What the Hell! I hate that type of talk. With that attitude there will be no land left to ride. OR we can all hold hands and walk the whole way in a line, as so no one passes, no one is left behind, no one is the winner, nobody gets lost, and no one is confused. Get a life. This is reality. And life is not always fair. It is what makes life so interesting. Sometimes you’re the windshield and sometimes you’re the bug.

Bleeding hearts filled with compassion for ignorance is more hurtful than the lesson learned for being ill prepared.

Learn and move on. If you wish to hold hands for every person who is unable to control their horse...well then start a club where you can give a group hug and scream every time someone stumbles. But Please...do it on private land and allow the others that are self sufficient to use the land...AND unaffect others that respect autonomy and freedom.

Whaaa whaaa this is getting ridiculous.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

[Sleepy]

Apparently I was right the first time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Chaser]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:

We are not socialists! Good lord

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Huh? I do not understand this comment at all.

But anyway, my horse is well trained. We have no problems in passing combine harvesters in full operation, people on bikes, even steam traction engine rallies. So no, I don't expect the world to revolve around me.

However, this 'I'm all right, Jack' attitude is what shocks me, when someone is potentially in serious difficulties.

What I was concerned about was where the OP says this:

"On three different occasions, I had CTR riders come barreling up behind me at speed, without announcing themselves or slowing down or asking permission to pass. At one point, I was heading up a narrow single track trail with a steep slope on one side and a sharp bank on the other when a group of CTR riders came charging up the hill. My horse got very agitated, began bucking, rearing, spinning and blowing sideways – a very unsafe situation for both of us. These riders did not slow down, despite the fact that I was obviously in trouble."

RTM Anglo's, you said: "Where are you people coming from that you feel it is rude to pass another? Good Lord...what do you expect? There is a point to being courteous...I don't discount that."

These riders encountered by the OP were not courteous.

It is a matter of safety, not whether you think the rider in trouble is a fool.

[saratoga]

RTM Anglos- I'm sure glad you don't live anywhere near me because I wouldn't want someone with your attitude at the ride I manage or any ride that I do either. You give endurance riders a bad image.

BTW- it is the accepted practice in my state, (and I think the law), with signs on all multi-user trails, that bike riders must yield to horses- that means stop and pull over and wait for the horse to pass. I would say that at least 90% of them do this and the others probably just don't know. This includes DURING A BIKE RACE, unless of course the course is closed to the public.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Chaser:
I am shocked, actually, to read some of the comments here. Seems like getting a rosette comes before someone's life or that of their horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anyone posting in this discussion has been worked up over winning a ribbon. I think the largest issue that some of us are perceiving is the expectation that everyone else on horseback is somehow responsible for an untrained horse acting up on the trail, and should adjust their behavior accordingly. Sorry, but I don't agree with the drama that says it was life or death--you know why? Because multiple groups of riders passed without comment or help, and in 30 years of trail riding, I have only ever seen another rider ignored when there is good reason, such as their untrained horse is presenting a danger to the other riders, or their actions make it clear that help is not wanted.

Now maybe that's not true, since as I said, I wasn't there. But I find it hard to believe that I am the only one who saw that possibility in the original post. But I guess it's easier to think badly about a specific subset of riders than consider that their actions seem uncharacteristic, and therefore, there might be a reason....

Does no one else see the heightened drama in the description of this event? Good lord, 30 years in the saddle and there is no way I could have stayed on for a serious fit like the one this bronco displayed--"bucking, rearing, spinning and blowing sideways"--unless it wasn't all those things full-bore, but was a spoiled, untrained horse making her wishes known to join the horses moving past at a speed faster than a walk.

Come on, when one of my greenies started doing that type of a "sideways, backwards, light in the front end" fit upon seeing a fly fisherman for the first time, I got off and walked him past. I didn't expect the fly fisherman to stop casting, and I took responsibility for bringing the situation down a notch. But apparently, according to some people here, I could have stayed on, screaming "Stop! You are endangering me with that behavior! My horse is afraid! You need to stop!!" Think that would have improved relations with sportsmen??

[3fatponies]

Perhaps the issue here is also about what constitutes a "trail horse?" Is that why there is this divide where middle ground seems non-existant?

[RTM Anglo's]

Chaser,

My remark to socialism is that all for all. Not one is responsible for themselves, but all for all. No one better than the other, and we all wait around for the tail.

There are always rude people in this world, but I so agree with the comment that riders don't leave others in need. 3fatponies made a great point; I too have never left anyone on the trail in need. There is a large difference in these two statements of "drama" and "need".

saratoga, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifsorry to offend you...and quite the contrary, I am a great trail rider, and courteous and respectful. I announce myself, ask to pass, and stay a respectful distance behind riders. I have been a guide, and trail master, and I get complements from fellow riders on a continuous level. Although all of that has NOT been afforded to me. AND most are by novice riders who hog the trail, and/or don't understand trail etiquette. I don't hold them in a bad light, but understand and expect that when I am on a public trail...not everyone is enlightened with social graces.

What you fail to see is the point of this conversation is about responsibility. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

+++++++++++++++

So, I also agree with 3fatponies…how is it that the OP had three problems? My goodness, I don’t have that many problems when I have gone 50 miles down the trail. Past cars, bikes, kids, hikers, hunters, dogs, tractors, and yes…Horses too! And it is everyone else’s fault? The rider has no responsibility here, just a victim to many riders that didn’t respect her? How does that saying go….ah yes…Once shame on you, twice shame on me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

True trail riders that go major distances understand what a well trained horse is about. These horses know when to stop on a dime, put a foot right where the rider says, and stand still. Why? Because they put the time into training them. They put the miles on them.

What do pleasure riders/novice riders do? They get on their horses and have problems all day. Horse has problems all day. The rider doesn’t know trail etiquette, and the horse doesn’t know how to give way on the trail. Yes,….it is a learning experience. I said before I don’t fault a new rider, <span class="ev_code_RED">but the need is to learn, and NOT hold others responsible for their lack of training.</span> What is so hard with understanding that?
I go to a ride, drop my horse out, AND I have no problems. My horse stands still for the most part, and gives way to passing riders. I don’t hog the trail, and don’t stand in the middle of it screaming that I am out of control…and insult other riders…. and hold them responsible for my problems.

[Cartfall]

Multiuse trails are just that--they are open to many people for a variety of uses.

I have to agree that courtsy should be used when passing. Although I no longer ride competitively, I feel a verbal "passing on your right" was enough courtesy to let a rider know I was approaching. If it became apparent that the rider did not have control of her/his horse, I would slow and pass. The rider is ultimately responsible for his or her own horse. Training should be done at home not on the trail. If you know your horse is "hot", don't put him where a problem can happen. It used to irk the c%%p out of me when on training rides, we would get people whose horse "has to be out front" or "can't be passed".

This has been a very interesting thread.

GotheDistance, gotta agree with you.

[RTM Anglo's]

OK http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Sorry, but this conversation is going agar.

Trail etiquette 101
& in no particular order; just ones I can think of off hand.

1. Always know your surroundings and how you might deal with situations…you don’t own the trail

2. When coming to difficult terrain, or something you feel is a problem…look behind you and around you - so you have time to deal with it. I.E. Going up a hill and someone is coming up behind you…do you have time to get up it…or are you going to inconvenience another?

3. Allow others to pass…don’t make them ride behind you because you feel you would like more room. Train your horse to give way. This one drives me nuts! I have ridden behind people that I have announced the desire to pass and there is more than enough room, but the rider refuses to give way.

4. Riding in a pack of horses…don’t get on the horse’s butt in front of you.

5. Riding in a pack of horses and you are the leader…don’t run down the hill and keep going up the next until the last horse has caught up. There is a whip the rope attitude with horses and the last horses get excited.

6. When horses are coming up behind and you wish to ride alone…give yourself time to get off the trail, or have your horse trained to give way, don’t wait until the last moment and have a problem. You have to be aware of your surroundings, again…this is public property.

7. When wishing to pass, announce it immediately, don’t just ride on the other persons butt and push their horse…the horse can feel you wish to pass…just do it.

8. Don’t stand in the middle of a cross trail and expect riders behind you to wait for you to make a decision, or worse make them crash through the woods to get around you.

9. Don’t expect other riders to stop their pleasure ride to convenience you, the trail is open for everyone to ride at their pace. Trotting by is NOT rude.

10. Don’t race up on an unknown horse.

11. The biggest…don’t let your horse sniff another persons horse…this is not cute, nor being social. Many serious injuries occur this way. Stay a respectful distance.

12. Don’t allow your horse to dictate how you work the trail. I hate riders that say “my horse likes to ride here, or at this pace…he/she will get mad if I go faster, or stand to the side.” Horses are NOT pets; they are 1000-pound animals that react to fear by flight. They need competent riders to train them to react in ways the general public can deal with. Otherwise we loose our rights to use public space.

13. Know how to ride before you take a horse out. If you can’t sit or post a trot, please stay in a group of riders who will cater to your limitations.

14. Gold ribbons on a horse means stallion…mare owners please stay clear and DON’T STAND AROUND. The owner wishes to inform you their stallion may react to a mare in season

15. Green ribbons means green-horse…please have on your horse if it is not trained.

16. Red ribbons mean the horse can be rude, may kick, strike, or bite. Stay clear, don’t ride up on, and never stand behind.

17. Never tie your horse by its bit EVER! Remove the reins if you must tie and use as a lead, either to the halter, or the headstall. This is a terrible accident waiting to happen.

18. Never tie your horse to anything lower than its chest, and never longer than its nose can barely reach the ground.

19. Always lean forward going up steep hills, and lean back going down. Please stay off their loins and keep the saddle up on the withers. Allow room for the cinch to be loose enough two fingers can go in minimal! Gosh these animals need to jump, stretch, and breath…the barrel must be able to expand. Get a crupper or chest plate if you have poor balance or a horse with conformation faults.

20. Be pleasant and smile at people on the trail, I have meet some great folks. Don’t be so wrapped up in yourself and issues that you loose sight that others are out to enjoy their day.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:
I am a great trail rider, and courteous and respectful. I announce myself, ask to pass, and stay a respectful distance behind riders. I have been a guide, and trail master, and I get complements from fellow riders on a continuous level. Although all of that has NOT been afforded to me. AND most are by novice riders who hog the trail, and/or don't understand trail etiquette. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no trouble believing this, as I myself behave the same way. That is, in a nutshell, why this situation irks me so much--I have spent more time than I care to admit dealing with people on the trail who are so eaten up with fear that they make their horses crazy or who don't train their horses properly or who overface their horses and then expect everyone to cater to them....

To be honest, I am tired of people who think that "trail riding" is just a slackers idea of riding. I put a lot of miles on my horses, do absolutely everything in my power to build up their confidence by never overfacing them, and observe a strict level of courtesy in how I deal with landowners, other people using the trails for a variety of reasons and other riders. I teach my horses that I can be trusted as a rider to never ask them for something that they can't do, so if I make them stand while some overenthusiatic mommy with a stroller comes rushing at us, screaming "Junior, look! A Horsie!!" it is because she is NOT a threat. I may have to fight to hold them there when they first encounter such a site, but they do stand, even if I have to dismount to give them the security they need to do so. I owe them nothing less, because when I need it, I expect them to give that benefit of the doubt back to me.

Trail riding is not some joke, nor is it the default choice for riders who lack the skill or ability to pursue another avenue in riding--it is our choice, and there is no nearby ambulance waiting to scoop us up should something awful happen. The trail is not a controlled environment, and to expect it to be such is foolish and disrespectful. Everytime the public sees some horse acting up on the trail, we have one more person who may be willing to stop us from using public land because we are "dangerous."

I ride all my horses in a bareback pad and a bitless bridle and they come back from a flat-out gallop like that when I ask, because I have put the time and miles in to ensure they do. I don't believe that anyone who cannot control their horse bareback and in a halter and lead if needed should be riding that horse on the trails, because that level of communication is needed in a good trail horse.

Respect yourself, respect your horse and respect others by training for the trail with as much care as you would for any other discipline.

[mustangrider]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3fatponies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:
I am a great trail rider, and courteous and respectful. I announce myself, ask to pass, and stay a respectful distance behind riders. I have been a guide, and trail master, and I get complements from fellow riders on a continuous level. Although all of that has NOT been afforded to me. AND most are by novice riders who hog the trail, and/or don't understand trail etiquette. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have no trouble believing this, as I myself behave the same way. That is, in a nutshell, why this situation irks me so much--I have spent more time than I care to admit dealing with people on the trail who are so eaten up with fear that they make their horses crazy or who don't train their horses properly or who overface their horses and then expect everyone to cater to them....

To be honest, I am tired of people who think that "trail riding" is just a slackers idea of riding. I put a lot of miles on my horses, do absolutely everything in my power to build up their confidence by never overfacing them, and observe a strict level of courtesy in how I deal with landowners, other people using the trails for a variety of reasons and other riders. I teach my horses that I can be trusted as a rider to never ask them for something that they can't do, so if I make them stand while some overenthusiatic mommy with a stroller comes rushing at us, screaming "Junior, look! A Horsie!!" it is because she is NOT a threat. I may have to fight to hold them there when they first encounter such a site, but they do stand, even if I have to dismount to give them the security they need to do so. I owe them nothing less, because when I need it, I expect them to give that benefit of the doubt back to me.

Trail riding is not some joke, nor is it the default choice for riders who lack the skill or ability to pursue another avenue in riding--it is our choice, and there is no nearby ambulance waiting to scoop us up should something awful happen. The trail is not a controlled environment, and to expect it to be such is foolish and disrespectful. Everytime the public sees some horse acting up on the trail, we have one more person who may be willing to stop us from using public land because we are "dangerous."

I ride all my horses in a bareback pad and a bitless bridle and they come back from a flat-out gallop like that when I ask, because I have put the time and miles in to ensure they do. I don't believe that anyone who cannot control their horse bareback and in a halter and lead if needed should be riding that horse on the trails, because that level of communication is needed in a good trail horse.

Respect yourself, respect your horse and respect others by training for the trail with as much care as you would for any other discipline. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Amen.

[Sabina]

I've heard of DQ's, but now we seem to have Tee-Q's, which can be defined as people who think so highly of their advanced horseback riding "skills" they are oblivious to what really happens when they act rudely.

Message to all the Tee-Q's posting in this thread, you-just-don't-get-it? do you? Passing unknown horses on the trail, not in your competition, unnannounced, that you have trotted and cantered up to, and passing them faster than a walk, unnannounced, IS RUDE. And dangerous. You know this, and you're doing it anyway.

Because if you actually knew anything about horses, you know it agravates the horse being passed, horses out in the open do not act the same way as in a ring, and you don't have any special clairvoyant powers of their skill level and training.

The responsible, considerate thing to do when encountering an unknown horse on the trail is to slow down and approach cautiously. After all, if you're fast enough, making up 30 seconds or a minute shouldn't be a problem after you've passed. After all, when you hit a judged obstacle, the judge is going to score you on how.... excrutiatingly.... slowly.... you do it. So you're just being rude because you enjoy bothering people and feeling superior to them. Own up to it, and stop using that trite and overused phrase about "personal responsibility."

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">
Because if you actually knew anything about horses, you know it agravates the horse being passed, horses out in the open do not act the same way as in a ring </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Isn't that the whole point?? If your horse is not trained to behave in the open, but only in the ring, why are you not dismounting if his behavior is "dangerous??" If you are in that position, why are you not doing that horse the favor of handwalking him and getting him used to new and scary sites with the added security of your presence on the ground???

I am starting to think that projection is interferring in this thread pretty heavily....

I understand the point that a rider may be overhorsed on the trail, and as I said earlier, I never failed to stop and offer help if needed. Why is it so hard to understand that it works both ways and someone with an untrained, "dangerous" --your words, not mine--horse has no business expecting the world to adapt to them???

Continuing to insist on your "rights" to that is great and all, but is the kind of skewed thinking that can get someone hurt, or even killed, by making them think that they don't need to take responsibility for their own safety.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sabina:
So you're just being rude because you enjoy bothering people and feeling superior to them. Own up to it, and stop using that trite and overused phrase about "personal responsibility." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, if I had to pick, I would say that I am being "rude" because I am sick of people riding horses they can't control in situations that defy control, and then carrying on about how everyone else is to blame. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

There is nothing wrong with sticking to the ring, handwalking your hot horse for miles of experience prior to trail riding him or getting yourself a packer.

But if you don't agree, then be my guest.... See you on the trails! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sabina:
I've heard of DQ's, but now we seem to have Tee-Q's, which can be defined as people who think so highly of their advanced horseback riding "skills" they are oblivious to what really happens when they act rudely.

Message to all the Tee-Q's posting in this thread, you-just-don't-get-it? do you? Passing unknown horses on the trail, not in your competition, unnannounced, that you have trotted and cantered up to, and passing them faster than a walk, unnannounced, IS RUDE. And dangerous. You know this, and you're doing it anyway.

Because if you actually knew anything about horses, you know it agravates the horse being passed, horses out in the open do not act the same way as in a ring, and you don't have any special clairvoyant powers of their skill level and training.

The responsible, considerate thing to do when encountering an unknown horse on the trail is to slow down and approach cautiously. After all, if you're fast enough, making up 30 seconds or a minute shouldn't be a problem after you've passed. After all, when you hit a judged obstacle, the judge is going to score you on how.... excrutiatingly.... slowly.... you do it. So you're just being rude because you enjoy bothering people and feeling superior to them. Own up to it, and stop using that trite and overused phrase about "personal responsibility." </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifAHhahahaha

You are making absolutely no sense in particular. What is your point? Attacking people that have well thought out arguments with examples, and clarification and using as your defense "big bully" language is so defeating to your point, what-ever-it is???? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Where in any of my speakings did I ever say I was rude to another rider? Or did you choose to saddle me with that! Gosh, didn’t know you’d been riding with me all these years. Did I not list out 101 just for someone like you to use as a tool to understand what many people on this forum are trying to explain? Where did I list all the insults you used when insulting many of us on this forum?

How is anyone going to reach anyone of your type of reasoning when you are so narrow minded? You can't get off the narrow path you made and understand that the OP'er made many mistakes on her own, which given some thought on her part - she could have avoided these problems.

Now it comes down to people like you who have to personally attack another poster so you might give us all the "good word". You my friend are the bully. Demanding that everyone think as you or you're going to damn us all to hell.

Ok, call me a teeQ. Sticks and stones will break my bones but words can never hurt me. ahhahahahahha http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gifAHhahahaha

Take a load off and relax a little.

[Ghazzu]

As a licensed ECTRA judge, I'm embarrassed.
There's no excuse for treating anothe rider rudely, whether they are part of the comppetition or not.

Next time you are wondering why there seem to be fewer places to hold rides than there used to be, you folks might consider that public recreational areas get complaints about rude/unsafe riders, and they decide it isn't worth the hassle.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
As a licensed ECTRA judge, I'm embarrassed.
You folks might consider that public recreational areas get complaints about rude/unsafe riders, and they decide it isn't worth the hassle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am confused as to why a debate about the responsibilities one takes on when trail riding would embarrass you. No one has been terribly ugly, and I think seeing both viewpoints is valuable.

I will have to consider in the future that a horse I encounter may not be as well-schooled as I would have assumed and react accordingly, and hopefully someone with a horse like that will realize that they need to pay more attention to situations that they may encounter in which their horse may panic or misbehave to avoid harming themselves, their horse or a bystander.

What is the harm in that? I would think that you would encourage an open debate about it, since increased awareness could very well prevent the complaints that you are concerned about, no?

[saratoga]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:
Chaser,

What do pleasure riders/novice riders do? They get on their horses and have problems all day. Horse has problems all day. The rider doesn’t know trail etiquette, and the horse doesn’t know how to give way on the trail. Yes,….it is a learning experience. I said before I don’t ,. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Yes, I know plenty of riders like this- (lots of Parelli people in halters, to ignite another debate http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif that don't know how to ride, never have taken lessons, horse behaving badly, don't have a clue. Personally, I don't ride with these people anymore and I seldom go on large club-sponsonsed rides because of so many of these types of people. I, like you, consider myself a very good, educated rider and my horses are very well trained and very responsive to me. I feel I can handle myself and my horse fine in most all circumstances, regardless of what other people are doing. For instance, my friends and I practice passing each other on the trail at all gaits. But regardless, it just again comes to simple courtesy- it only takes a minute or two to slow down and be respectful to the person who is in trouble. You won't ever see them again and it is only a minute of your life.

And when we are on CTRs and endurance rides we are representatives of our sport and if you don't think it is becoming more and more difficult to find basecamps and trails for these rides, you are wrong!

gothedistance- how would you feel if a goat-walker came down the trail- goat on leash and under control of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And to answer the original question- No, CTR participants are not exempt from basic trail etiquette.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saratoga:
if you don't think it is becoming more and more difficult to find basecamps and trails for these rides, you are wrong! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't doubt that for a minute, but I suspect(and I admit, I could be way off base) that liability is the issue, not a tale told on an internet bulletin board. After all, if we live in a country where someone can sue because fast food "made" them fat(haha! I just blame genetics!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), then a sport involving huge animals with small brains is a natural target, which underscores the need to keep your horse under control at all times.

Now everyone, repeat after me: "Debate is good! Debate makes me think! Debate is an intellectual exercise, not a personal attack! Debate makes me strong!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And for the record, I welcome a well-behaved goat on the trails. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[saratoga]

Yes, when I started my club's CTR about 7 years ago, the Park Ranger was very concerned with our riders not interfering with anyone other user and no racing. When I told him that our riders would probably be alone or in groups or 2-4, and would most likely be walking or trotting, he said ok and so far it has gone great. I always warn the riders about other trail users, advise them not to canter in certain areas, and we've never had a problem (knock on wood!).

[3fatponies]

Yes, those moms get very annoyed and complain to the Park Rangers if you squash one of their kids.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Good to hear it's working out. I think most trail riders are good people, and want to make things work for the betterment of the sport.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3fatponies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
As a licensed ECTRA judge, I'm embarrassed.
You folks might consider that public recreational areas get complaints about rude/unsafe riders, and they decide it isn't worth the hassle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am confused as to why a debate about the responsibilities one takes on when trail riding would embarrass you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since I don't think you're completely obtuse, I can only conclude that you are rude.
Sorry, telling someone to stay at home so you can hog the trail to go as fast as you want wherever you want isn't going to win any friends (or volunteers for P &R's, road crossings, water stops, land use) for CTR.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3fatponies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
As a licensed ECTRA judge, I'm embarrassed.
You folks might consider that public recreational areas get complaints about rude/unsafe riders, and they decide it isn't worth the hassle. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am confused as to why a debate about the responsibilities one takes on when trail riding would embarrass you. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since I don't think you're completely obtuse, I can only conclude that you are rude.
Sorry, telling someone to stay at home so you can hog the trail to go as fast as you want wherever you want isn't going to win any friends (or volunteers for P &R's, road crossings, water stops, land use) for CTR. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did you actually read anything I posted, or are you just picking sides without actually reading the thread?

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
Since I don't think you're completely obtuse, I can only conclude that you are rude.
Sorry, telling someone to stay at home so you can hog the trail to go as fast as you want wherever you want isn't going to win any friends (or volunteers for P &R's, road crossings, water stops, land use) for CTR. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where did you draw this conclusion? The more I consider it, the more puzzled I am--my argument was that people need to train their horses for the trail, not just expect everyone to adjust to their lack of training. Is this something personal? Is the concept of an opposing viewpoint so hard to tolerate?

Come now, if you post on a public bb, you have to expect people to disagree and state their opinions. Can you point to the thread in which I was rude, and stated my desire to "hog the trail and go as fast as I want?"

[appaloosalady]

After reading the entire thread, I think some people are confused about what a CTR is and that may be what is causing some of the discord. Some posters seem to be thinking of a judged trail ride, which is certainly not the same as a CTR. Just a thought http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Ghazzu]

It sounds much less like "a debate about responsibilities" than a smug, "well, *we* can controul *our* horses, so if yours gets uspets, well, *too bad*".

Yes, horses ridden out in public ought to be broke.
Does that mean, if you were driving down a road and saw a horse spooking at the sight and sound of your car, that it would be acceptable to floor it and lean on the horn?

I'm way less concerned about wo had the right of way, if any, than about people who seem to think they are more accomplished than others behaving rudely.
Smacks of bad horsemanship.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
I'm way less concerned about wo had the right of way, if any, than about people who seem to think they are more accomplished than others behaving rudely.
Smacks of bad horsemanship. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow--that may be your concern, but my amusement lies in the fact that I am being lectured about manners by people who label me "rude, not entirely obtuse, dangerous, superior and smug" [let me know if I missed any] for articulating and then defending my opinion. I was under the impression that we were living in a democracy where people die to defend that right, but hey, what do I know? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Funny how despite those personal attacks, I have not responded in kind. It's great that those same "well-mannered" people are so astute as to draw those highly supported opinions of someone they don't even know--maybe you or one of the others has a stock tip for me?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Is the preferred manner of response that I scream epithets like a fishwife? Seems like it to me, but maybe I am overly sensitive. After all, I have defended myself from those responses without resorting to the preferred tactics of the "manners first" crowd, but that doesn't seem to do much other than add more fuel to the fire, so why fight it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Next time I disagree, I will remember to attack first, make it personal and then not even be able to laugh when the person I attacked responds by giggling. Lighten up, grow up, do whatever it is you need to do to respond with the courtesy you so highly prize. Either that, or start making it clear that "Do as I say, not as I do" is the rule you are abiding by.

BTW, still waiting on that response for where I stated I wanted to "hog the trail and go as fast as I can." Feel free to take your time, since we are working so hard at maintaining courtesy, I wouldn't want to rush you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Ghazzu]

The "you" is directed at those who are making the statements I referenced.

And I don't care these days whether I'm rude or not.
As I say at the preride briefing, I gave up worrying about whether people liked me whan I hit 40. Then I tell them that if I catch them being rude or obnoxious to the volunteers, they are SOL.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
The "you" is directed at those who are making the statements I referenced.

And I don't care these days whether I'm rude or not.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Fair enough--my apologies for assuming it was directed at me. As you can see, I am following in your footsteps when it comes to not worrying. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sabina]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by appaloosalady:
After reading the entire thread, I think some people are confused about what a CTR is and that may be what is causing some of the discord. Some posters seem to be thinking of a judged trail ride, which is certainly not the same as a CTR. Just a thought http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm not the least bit confused about what a CTR is, and it doesn't stand for Cantered Trail Ride either, which seems to be the point of confusion for the participants when they see a non-contestant.

[Sleepy]

Well, I AM labeling you rude based on responses to this thread rather than what you may or may not do on the trail.

You have spent a lot of energy projecting your spin on what the OP said. I know that you must take a lot of heat yourselves when people find out you are trail riders just because of folks' experience with the drunken yahoos who do these huge overnight rides. But that is no excuse for copping an attitude and telling others to stay off public trails. Because we have a right to be there too. And yes, on a green horse. If a horse never goes anywhere except the ring until it's 'trained', it will never be an acceptable trail or hunt horse. So get over yourselves already.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sleepy:
Well, I AM labeling you rude based on responses to this thread rather than what you may or may not do on the trail.[QUOTE]

Nice to know we are back to throwing stones at the personal character of strangers rather than discussing this with the courtesy so eagerly demanded in this thread.


[QUOTE]You have spent a lot of energy projecting your spin on what the OP said.[QUOTE]

Why not? If it stops someone from getting hurt, or makes a regular trail rider consider that a horse may not be as schooled as previously assumed, or even if it is just a chance to consider opinions from all sides and engage in a friendly debate, where is the harm in that? I wasn't aware that only slavish support was permitted on internet bulletin boards. If you don't want to argue, then why are you name calling? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[QUOTE]But that is no excuse for copping an attitude and telling others to stay off public trails. Because we have a right to be there too. And yes, on a green horse. If a horse never goes anywhere except the ring until it's 'trained', it will never be an acceptable trail or hunt horse. So get over yourselves already. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

And then, back to insults! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Why is this something that cannot allow room for more than one opinion? Of course green horses need training, and of course that must occur on the trail. But I think there are safer ways to do that, such as dismounting and handwalking when a horse begins to panic, or avoiding group situations where a wreck might involve more than one rider. If you don't agree, then simply say so--no need to be [let me borrow that overused phrase] "rude" about it.

You have your opinion, and I have mine. That's great, no? So why the animosity and name calling directed at anyone who dares support his/her opinion?

You think greenies should train on the trail. So do I. Perhaps we disagree about the specifics of that, but so what? Is that a reason to act churlish and assign defaming labels to anyone who disagrees?

You know, I hate to sound like I am standing in the aftermath of a riot, but can't we all just get along? And if not, can we at least limit the overwhelming urge to attempt to support an argument by getting personal? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[ComingAttraction]

This is a general observation, not directed at anyone, so please don't go a gettin your feathers ruffled. I'm just trying to have a discussion.
Manners are nice but something that is lacking in most people these days. We are all too quick to bit@^ and moan. Unfortunatly when you are riding on a "marked" coarse and not in the race (whether its runners, mountain bikers, horses, carriages etc.) YOU need to look out.

I have ridden 1000's of miles of trails and can ALWAYS hear a horse coming up behind me. If I don't want people riding up behind me I take a new trail. Not a lot of open space left, can't we share without getting our panties in a twist?If you choose to stay on a marked competition trail lose the "i'll show them attitude."

More people do need to realize that they are responsible for how their horses behave and their horses training. If your horse can't take that much action the common sense thing to do would be to remove your horse from the situation. Stop putting everyone in danger. It seems common sense to me, that, if you have a horse that is acting up, YOU deal with it...not everyone else...its not their problem, its yours.

Just a bit of advice...do not ride green/nervous horses on the most crowded days (weekends) take them out during the week (if possible) to get them used to the park and trails. If this is not possible stick to open fields, where passing is not a problem or travel the less travelled paths. If you have to ride on the weekends and the park is crowded, well then you know what you are in for. Either suck it up or pack it in.

[ComingAttraction]

computer has gone crazy, sorry for the double post!

[fotie]

My horse can be a bone-head. I know this and it is entirely MY problem. I work with her and I DON'T expect other people to have to alter their day around MY problem. If this is a problem for you, then you need to work with your horse to help over come situations like this. It does bother me that people speed past me when I ride along the road, but that is the risk you take . Roads have cars. Trails have other people. Some of these people don't care about anyone but themselves. HOWEVER, you can change you. Train your horse to deal with these situations better and you won't have as big of a problem on your hands. Take lessons from a professional who deals with these kinds of problems.

[RTM Anglo's]

Seems there are only two sides here…let me recap it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

We have rude people who are
A. Experience trail riders who find it “rude” when green horses are allowed to act –up on the trail and inconvenience unsuspecting trail etiquette riders, then these green horse riders have the gull to act as though “they” have been the one who has been wronged.

B. Green horse riders who find it “rude” when riding their horse that acts-up and causes a scene while expecting others who are using trail etiquette to stop what they are doing and jump to the beck and call of their ranting.


Then we are further mudding up the water by then assuming that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

1. These experience trail riders are no longer applying trail etiquette and are full-fledged rude SOB’s. They are now galloping by a green horses and causing them to all go crazy, endangering lives of all riders, horses, and passerbyers.

2. Anyone who is trying to clarify that these experience trail riders are NOT doing this are SOB’s themselves and also plow All riders All the time off the trail and are rude people that cause all the problems themselves.

Then when these experienced riders are trying to explain that they are not #1 or #2 by supplying examples, common sense, simple trail etiquette 101, they are further told they are rude SOB’s and http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

1. It is hoped that they never run into them on the trail, and heaven help anyone who does perchance across them.

2. Are embarrassed by the behavior experienced riders display.

3. Are threatened to be turned into “big brother” and all rights taken away.

4. Insulted with words, labeled and insulted some more.

5. Their choice of sport be it Endurance or CTR is deemed the cancer of our infliction.

What the heck is going on here? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif What about seeing this for what it is and not making it a witch-hunt? What is the entire name calling? I only see the overzealous “green horse” supporters doing this.

I see posters coming in here and there to support the view that anyone who rides a green horse is STILL responsible for THEIR actions. I understand that there is always the desire to help the underdog…but what about the idea that where-ever-you-go….you take yourself (meaning if your are there…you are responsible for yourself). Pure and simple if you stayed in a controlled environment, you would be in control. Take yourself out of that environment, and you have now placed yourself in a situation where you might not be in control….it is your choice & you are responsible for it.

I have trained many a green horse, and I completely understand the issues that they do. I have flipped over, slid down hills, crashed through woods, sunk in lakes, blasted across highways and the such. I don’t hold ANYONE responsible for this but me PERIOD. I try to push the envelope back each time with these greenies and teach them something new each time and not overwhelm them. I have learned, and I use this learning to put myself in a better position when training. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gifBOTTOM LINE is I ride with an experienced crotchety experienced trail horse, and my greenie will rely on that horse throughout the ride.

Question? Why don’t green horses ride with an experienced horse as a guide and NOT take their horse out on the trail alone? Understand the horse is a herd animal that needs and requires another horse to feel secure. It is completely expected that a green horse will immediately try to belong to a group or a rider coming on the scene when faced with a scary situation. Is it right to assume that ALL riders you come across when riding a green horse wish and desire to accommodate the green horse as their new best friend?

Is it not a bit presumptuous to assume that all riders must stop what they are doing to help a person (or just stand there and watch) who is NOT prepared and patiently wait and take time out of their day while this green horse continues to act-up, until finally the green horse rider gets the horse under control? ESPECIALLY when this green horse has inconvenienced several other people just minutes before? Is there not a line when expecting others to accommodate you for your poor judgment?

Is it not allowed to suggest that maybe it is the green horse rider who is rude, and not the passerbyers? Could it be, that when competing in a CTR or Endurance ride the person competing would really rather do proper trail etiquette, pass when open, and continue on with their sport? Are they really rude by not stopping by and standing there like a lackey, taking time out of their day, which is NOT even appreciated by the green horse rider…as they assume these experienced riders could do EVEN MORE. (Hell - let me get on your nag and we will see this damn thing go up the hill I guarantee you – I don’t have time for this crap when competing)

But no, we are rude people because we don’t expect that a person with a horse would be prepared to control it, and must give our time, appreciated or not, to be yelled at, chastised, judged as rude, and stand there and take it.

I say…take your own lickens! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif You are responsible for your choices. The TQ thing (which we were labeled with) is really a statement of this situation – it is NOT - I am a barbarian and will ride over your punk butt – now move it.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gifPLEASE *** to all you bleeding hearts that must shelter a person for stupid things they do, no matter what the stupid thing is…as this person is never responsible…UNDERSTAND THIS

I never leave ANYONE stranded, and I am never rude to a genuine person in distress! I just don’t have the bleeding heart you people do for unprepared riders. Do your homework before you take a test.

BE RESPONSIBLE for your choices. DON’T EXPECT everyone is there to be screamed at by you and stand there and take it. Believe me…insult me and see if I help you. It is not about that.

All you riders that like to ride the trail and be superman/woman looking for riders in distress...you go for it. I find 9 out of 10 of these distressed riders don't want or need your help. They just never learn, make the same mistakes, and just like to bitch. I see this type over and over again.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifYou know what...I prefer the drunk ones anyday...at least their horses are beer broke and the riders sure laugh a heck of a lot
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ComingAttraction]

HERE! HERE! RTM'S ANGLOS!!! Well put.

[saratoga]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:

As I say at the preride briefing, I gave up worrying about whether people liked me whan I hit 40. Then I tell them that if I catch them being rude or obnoxious to the volunteers, they are SOL. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOVE IT!!

[Equibrit]

It is not too much to expect that the CTR riders abide by the rules of the governing body when taking part in their events. THAT IS ALL!

THE RULE READS;
"A contestant should ask to pass, should not pass in an unsafe area, and should pass at a gait other than a canter or gallop."


SIMPLE - end of story.

[eclipsefarm]

I would've slowed down, but the picture that came to mind was a very narrow trail or even a switchback, common around here. There's hardly a choice where to pull off. So how much room was there to pass?

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
It is not too much to expect that the CTR riders abide by the rules of the governing body when taking part in their events. THAT IS ALL!

THE RULE READS;
"A contestant should ask to pass, should not pass in an unsafe area, and should pass at a gait other than a canter or gallop."


SIMPLE - end of story. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Were do you continue to come from??? I really don't know how this started...but NO ONE HERE has cantered or galloped by ANYONE on this forum.

Next. The rule states SHOULD...big difference between should and must. One applies to a concept or thought the other is a set rule.

Then. What is the deal with CTR...What next you are going to attack the endurance riders? Hell, we blow each other off at a flick of a switch. We are true barbarians in every sense of the word.

Some people will complain until they are blue in the face, and NOT understand logic when spoon-fed to them. Can't help these people as they choose to always be unhappy and complain. Doesn't matter if you people are catered to all day...there is always something someone forgot to do...like put that cherry on the top.

Please, if you are going to tote the bible...pick a passage that is engraved in stone. This one is so ambiguous it isn't funny. What is unsafe to you - could mean nothing to me.

Save me now, I feel hells grip on my heels.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[fotie]

RTM Anglo's... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Equibrit]

RTM Anglo.

Question the ECTRA if you want to bitch about their rules. You can split hairs all you want but the intent is clear - well maybe not to you!

"Were do you continue to come from??? I really don't know how this started...but NO ONE HERE has cantered or galloped by ANYONE on this forum."

You are obviously not familiar with the rulebook - that is merely the way the rule is written; not a condemnation of anybody's actions.

Quite simple really! Don't you think?

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eclipsefarm:
I would've slowed down, but the picture that came to mind was a very narrow trail or even a switchback, common around here. There's hardly a choice where to pull off. So how much room was there to pass? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think anybody really knows, except perhaps the OP and others in the ride that day. I would assume it was wide enough for multiple horses, given the nature of the ride, or liability reasons would make it likely to be closed off(your insurance company gets angry when people fall off a cliff and then bother them for money for things like casts and wheelchairs http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
You are obviously not familiar with the rulebook </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

We are now, thank you.

[Equibrit]

My life has meaning!!!!!!!

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
My life has meaning!!!!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, you know what they say: take joy in the little things and every day will be a treasure.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Equibrit]

Taking tongue out of cheek.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
Taking tongue out of cheek. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or removing foot from mouth? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Equibrit]

Too subtle for you?

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
Too subtle for you? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, just too boring.

[Equibrit]

Well never mind then! Don't want to stress you out!

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
Well never mind then! Don't want to stress you out! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

No stress, just not the minimalist quip type.

[appaloosalady]

....and here I always thought the dressage forum was the catty one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by appaloosalady:
....and here I always thought the dressage forum was the catty one http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That was pretty good yourself!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
RTM Anglo.

Question the ECTRA if you want to bitch about their rules. You can split hairs all you want but the intent is clear - well maybe not to you!

"Were do you continue to come from??? I really don't know how this started...but NO ONE HERE has cantered or galloped by ANYONE on this forum."

You are obviously not familiar with the rulebook - that is merely the way the rule is written; not a condemnation of anybody's actions.

Quite simple really! Don't you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My gosh http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Talk about rude! ahhahahah oh...I am sorry I can't use that one...the TQ clique forbids me to. Ahahhahaa http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Come on! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Why do you continue to make everything so personal?

I said over and over – I don't do, and I am reasonable sure does anyone one else on this forum violate these "loose" rules. But you continue to act as though we do. Why is it you think - that you keep doing this? You know...making judgments of people you don't even know...acting as though you are "mightier than though". I have heard an ancient saying...how does it go??? hmmm

Oh I know! Point one finger and three point back at you. Or was it something to do with people that steal always think others are stealing from them. Crap...either way you really have some issues with being inconsiderate on the trail...could it be you might be guilty of it??? What is your obsession with judging others? Who here has even done what you continue to label “us” with?

hmmmmmm I have heard of books before written on this very subject...is it transposition? Someone one help me out here...what problem does she have? You know when you accuse people of doing things that you do yourself?

Any TQ's out there know that answer to this?

Anyhow…back to your distorted thinking. What the heck does the bible toting of a loose rule have to do with anything? It says over and over should…the word should means exactly that…should. I have done more than my fair share of CTR and Endurance rides…and what goes on is reality. It is a code you choose to do when riding in a competition. It says…should. Meaning that you really don’t have to…but it would be best if you did. It says what is polite to do…not what is required to do.

In reality…CTR riders can squat in the middle of the trail…doing their own pace…and NEVER allow a person to pass! FACT. In fact if you have the pleasure of being behind one…etiquette is to wait for a wide enough space…and pass at will. So, there is more to your rules than what you think. In this case, you don’t even announce it, you just do it. And why would that be? Well, first the rider in front of you knows you are there, and knows you wish to pass. What would you call the reason this rider realizes someone wishes to pass?

Oh..Oh… I know this one…I do…I do…well it could be that a rider is closing in on them and they can hear and see that this approaching rider is going faster than them. Wait a minute I have this on video inside my head…go with me now…lets visualize this….

I can see it… http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifIn fact the approaching riders are getting closer to them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Goodness, they announced the desire to pass. Oh my, they are now on the front rider’s butt. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifCrap, the front rider is not prepared (or just doesn’t care and wish to inconvenience the coming riders for selfish reasons). Good lord if they get closer…the front rider is going to have to start screaming at them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif “@@@@#$$%$@! YOU SONS OF BITC##$$#, my horse is acting up. Stand back, stop it, oh look what you did…. Well at least let me get to the side.”

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gifMeanwhile, 5 to 10 minutes latter the back riders are still trying to pass.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif“Oh, who cares? These people shouldn’t be in such a hurry. I mean I’m not, so who’s more important here anyway? Oh yes…that is me.”

Now who is really rude? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif And the rules allow this person to hold the back riders up.

So again, what is your point by toting the bible here? It doesn’t pertain. Being rude is rude, and it is a two-way street regardless of loose rules.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Sabina]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
RTM Anglo.

Question the ECTRA if you want to bitch about their rules. You can split hairs all you want but the intent is clear - well maybe not to you!

"Were do you continue to come from??? I really don't know how this started...but NO ONE HERE has cantered or galloped by ANYONE on this forum."

You are obviously not familiar with the rulebook - that is merely the way the rule is written; not a condemnation of anybody's actions.

Quite simple really! Don't you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

My gosh http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Talk about rude! ahhahahah oh...I am sorry I can't use that one...the TQ clique forbids me to. Ahahhahaa http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Come on! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Why do you continue to make everything so personal?

I said over and over – I don't do, and I am reasonable sure does anyone one else on this forum violate these "loose" rules. But you continue to act as though we do. Why is it you think - that you keep doing this? You know...making judgments of people you don't even know...acting as though you are "mightier than though". I have heard an ancient saying...how does it go??? hmmm

Oh I know! Point one finger and three point back at you. Or was it something to do with people that steal always think others are stealing from them. Crap...either way you really have some issues with being inconsiderate on the trail...could it be you might be guilty of it??? What is your obsession with judging others? Who here has even done what you continue to label “us” with?

hmmmmmm I have heard of books before written on this very subject...is it transposition? Someone one help me out here...what problem does she have? You know when you accuse people of doing things that you do yourself?

Any TQ's out there know that answer to this?

Anyhow…back to your distorted thinking. What the heck does the bible toting of a loose rule have to do with anything? It says over and over should…the word should means exactly that…should. I have done more than my fair share of CTR and Endurance rides…and what goes on is reality. It is a code you choose to do when riding in a competition. It says…should. Meaning that you really don’t have to…but it would be best if you did. It says what is polite to do…not what is required to do.

In reality…CTR riders can squat in the middle of the trail…doing their own pace…and NEVER allow a person to pass! FACT. In fact if you have the pleasure of being behind one…etiquette is to wait for a wide enough space…and pass at will. So, there is more to your rules than what you think. In this case, you don’t even announce it, you just do it. And why would that be? Well, first the rider in front of you knows you are there, and knows you wish to pass. What would you call the reason this rider realizes someone wishes to pass?

Oh..Oh… I know this one…I do…I do…well it could be that a rider is closing in on them and they can hear and see that this approaching rider is going faster than them. Wait a minute I have this on video inside my head…go with me now…lets visualize this….

I can see it… http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifIn fact the approaching riders are getting closer to them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Goodness, they announced the desire to pass. Oh my, they are now on the front rider’s butt. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifCrap, the front rider is not prepared (or just doesn’t care and wish to inconvenience the coming riders for selfish reasons). Good lord if they get closer…the front rider is going to have to start screaming at them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif “@@@@#$$%$@! YOU SONS OF BITC##$$#, my horse is acting up. Stand back, stop it, oh look what you did…. Well at least let me get to the side.”

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gifMeanwhile, 5 to 10 minutes latter the back riders are still trying to pass.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif“Oh, who cares? These people shouldn’t be in such a hurry. I mean I’m not, so who’s more important here anyway? Oh yes…that is me.”

Now who is really rude? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif And the rules allow this person to hold the back riders up.

So again, what is your point by toting the bible here? It doesn’t pertain. Being rude is rude, and it is a two-way street regardless of loose rules.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


I have no doubt that anyone blocking the trail ahead of you would just rather go ahead and leap off a cliff than listen to this sort of blather for several miles. Great motivational technique there. No wonder you never have any trouble passing. Look, I let you go first. Please, pass my horse. Quickly.

[Equibrit]

RTM - if you're going to post - could you do it in English?

[fotie]

Why he-double-hocky-sticks RTM, thir yous' agoin' talking yir jive agin...yurs 8th grade eduicatin' taught yas bitter'n dat!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[3fatponies]

She made EIGHTH Grade??? Damn, I AM jealous!!

[MissBri]

OK - will everyone chill please? Take a deep breath and Reeelaaaxxxx... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Rider with the green/misbehaving horse - If the trail was that dangerous, wouldn't it have been better to just go for it and get up the hill and off that trail as quick as you could - difficult for a horse to act up if he/she is moving forward, forward, forward. Especially after the first group went by. By holding him/her back you are essentially frying it's little brain.

Competitors are competitors - they are there first and foremost to complete the ride. Most (if not all) of the competitors I have met/encountered have been very courteous and helpful. Most have taken a few minutes of their time to be sure a rider in a difficult situation had a semblance of control before moving off. While pleasure riding/conditioning they usually are extremely helpful and are an unending supply of information in how to deal with 'trail troubles' - as most have 'been there - done that' at least a few times.

Honestly, the only truely rude rider I ever met was a pleasure rider who was overhorsed and riding alone - when I was out on a conditioning ride. Swearing at me and jerking him about. I got her calmed down somewhat, then I rode with her back to her trail head (45 min) then told her to dismount and lead him home. Learned a few new cuss words and hand gestures that day. Oh well at least I prevented the horse from being jerked about while I was with them...

[RTM Anglo's]

Huh, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Is that what that little square house was??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif A school? Gosh o-mighty I just thought is was a room to get free lunch and wipe bougers on the chairs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (don't worry I pick them back when I'm hungery)

Yup, learn something every day. (or I think I does)

Crap, and to think I have been going there for years…and never knew. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Who would have thunk it? I wonder who paid for all that edimacation? Must a been the god fearing bible toting goodie-two-shoe people of this country, cause I ain’t got no money.
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Why is it... only TQ's can see the hummor in all of this here talk? Must be cause were so smart. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:
Huh, http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Is that what that little square house was??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif A school? Gosh o-mighty I just thought is was a room to get free lunch and wipe bougers on the chairs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif (don't worry I pick them back when I'm hungery)
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

RTM,
We are now considering disciplinary action in light of your admission. To have someone so educated in our midst may damage the "trailer trash on horseback" image we have worked so hard to maintain. Please move to the other folder and respond to the suggestions put forth by my spiritual advisor for proving your suitability for the TQ label.

[RTM Anglo's]

Honest,

I only went there cause I was kicked out of the orphanage during daytime hours...I never even knew it was a school. I would have stayed in the barn with the others, but Mary the duck told me edimacation. I didn’t know what is was, I thought is was some kind a berry or something. Anyway, now that I knows…I’m a gonna talk to Mary again, ask her why she done tricked me like that.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[Equibrit]

You all seem very happy. I guess ignorance IS bliss.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
You all seem very happy. I guess ignorance IS bliss. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Riiiight. Don't get your panties in a twist(using such a vulgar saying brings a certain inherent satisfaction)over it. We are having more fun laughing than judging, that's all.

[RTM Anglo's]

Well, now...thats real kind of ya all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Really, I be an ole redneck, but I so appreciate the kinship with the southern folk. My pappy was born in IL, and he taught me well. That was before the orphanage and stuff.

I wear flannel you know, no shoes, Us hillbillies likes to keeps them for weddings and funerals. Some people get right confused and thinks I'm daisy duke. That's alright though, even though I thinks I'm cuter that her. Plus I can take a whippen real good. Hard to knock this ol-gal out of the saddle. Done busted some bones, but they heal up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hay, now what about there race? I gots me some friend up in the hills ready to knock ya off if you gets there first, hope theys don’t get confused and start smacking on me.

[Ghazzu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:


In reality…CTR riders can squat in the middle of the trail…doing their own pace…and NEVER allow a person to pass! FACT. In fact if you have the pleasure of being behind one…etiquette is to wait for a wide enough space…and pass at will. So, there is more to your rules than what you think. In this case, you don’t even announce it, you just do it. And why would that be? Well, first the rider in front of you knows you are there, and knows you wish to pass. What would you call the reason this rider realizes someone wishes to pass?

Oh..Oh… I know this one…I do…I do…well it could be that a rider is closing in on them and they can hear and see that this approaching rider is going faster than them...
the approaching riders are getting closer to them... announced the desire to pass. .. the front rider is not prepared (or just doesn’t care and wish to inconvenience the coming riders for selfish reasons). Good lord if they get closer…the front rider is going to have to start screaming at them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif “@@@@#$$%$@! YOU SONS OF BITC##$$#, my horse is acting up. Stand back, stop it, oh look what you did…. Well at least let me get to the side.”

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gifMeanwhile, 5 to 10 minutes latter the back riders are still trying to pass.



Now who is really rude? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif And the rules allow this person to hold the back riders up.

</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think not.

F. EVENT DISQUALIFICATION / ELIMINATION
1. Management and/or judge(s) MAY at any time, from the arrival of the rider/driver on the grounds to the time the awards are handed out, disqualify any rider/driver or horse from the event for any of the following including conduct or violations committed by a rider/driver’s pit crew, groom or any other person connected with the rider/driver:
4
1.1. Violation of any ECTRA rule.
1.2. Violation of any EVENT rule.
1.3. Conduct deemed to be dishonest, unsportsmanlike or excessively rude, especially to event personnel.

And spare me the strange notion that the word "may" means it isn't a rule.

[Sandy M]

Haven't read all the posts, but enough to see that the arguments are:

1) They are bad, bad riders with poor manners;

2) They were in a competition, you rode during it, deal with it.

Well..... they WERE in a competition BUT.... I have experienced this behavior from endurance riders when they were conditioning - running up on other riders and bombing past with no warning, no slow down. A friend was returning home from a trail ride in a state park, on a summer evening, relaxed and on a loose rein, and three endurance riders came out of nowhere and bombed past her, spooking her horse off the edge of a (thankfully small) cliff. She was an eventer, so she managed to stay on and control her horse, but it was excreable manners, and I have had the same thing happen to me. Once they DID slow down.... then waited until they were six inches in front of my horse's nose to take off at a gallop.

I think there ARE quite a few bad mannered endurance riders, but whether they are the majority you who participate in the sport can say better than I. It certainly seems that in the OP case, they picked a very bad spot to do this...it was a dangerous trail and I don't think a few moments slow down would have cost them that much, when the alternative was a chance of someone getting hurt.

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ghazzu:
I think not.

F. EVENT DISQUALIFICATION / ELIMINATION
1. Management and/or judge(s) MAY at any time, from the arrival of the rider/driver on the grounds to the time the awards are handed out, disqualify any rider/driver or horse from the event for any of the following including conduct or violations committed by a rider/driver’s pit crew, groom or any other person connected with the rider/driver:
4
1.1. Violation of any ECTRA rule.
1.2. Violation of any EVENT rule.
1.3. Conduct deemed to be dishonest, unsportsmanlike or excessively rude, especially to event personnel.

And spare me the strange notion that the word "may" means it isn't a rule. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Please, understand I mean you disrespect, but fail to understand how your post pertains to my post?

There is no reference to passing…and only states that you can be eliminated by the ruling you have listed. I don’t dispute that a judge or management can eliminate you! Where are you coming from that I said that they couldn’t? And please tell me a ride where judges were on the trail observing riders and giving points…I have NEVER seen that. The only place I see judges are in camps, and at vet checks.

Either way…It makes no reference to the fact…that you cannot force a person to allow you to pass. There is always the clause of a suitable area to pass. And just what is a suitable area? Ahhh yes, the ambiguousness of the language. I need some bible thumping person to please edamacate me on where it states you MUST allow a person to pass.

We already had one tell us the rules say “should” which really means to be polite you should do this. Not like “must” which really means do it or be eliminated. It leaves it up to the rider’s good judgment.

And you too spare me the answer that “I” as a competitor can complain to management or file a grievance. Please, this wastes everyone’s time, causes bad feelings, nothing gets done, people lie, and it is a plain waste of time for everyone. Besides the fact I am not the sort to complain, I just take care of it myself. Go figure, I am that sort of person.

Please spend some time on the trails if you really want to know what goes on there. Making statements that people DON’T squat on trails, and people will be judged on this is plain silly. I have never seen, or heard of this ever happening. I have seen my share of poor sports that squat on the trail, and turn in everyone and their mother for offending them. “I” am not the sort, and I will not become one of these people.

I ride the trail, I apply etiquette, and I get along with most everyone. I will NOT be bullied, and I will not be a crybaby for the sake of some unused rule that no one uses, nor respects. No offense, as you state you are a judge, but come on here…you know this is a crock of $hit.

I have mentioned this very thing about trail squatters before to upper trail management. And you know what I was told???? Pass at will Holly, just pass at will. Wonder why they said that to me? Well could be I am a fair and honest rider, and they understand and appreciate that. Could be they might be telling me the rules on how to deal with squatters. You’re the judge…you tell me? Hmmmm Let me first say it was at an AHA championship ride, so don’t demean the staff.
++++++++++++++

Gtd, fine you win this one…but I am plain evil…coming up behind…passing left…oh Hell, just get out of my way before I mow you over! Ahahahhaha
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:
I have mentioned this very thing about trail squatters before to upper trail management. And you know what I was told???? Pass at will Holly, just pass at will. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, you think they might want to join our group, too?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[saratoga]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">

I have experienced this behavior from endurance riders when they were conditioning - running up on other riders and bombing past with no warning, no slow down. A friend was returning home from a trail ride in a state park, on a summer evening, relaxed and on a loose rein, and three endurance riders came out of nowhere and bombed past her, spooking her horse off the edge of a (thankfully small) cliff. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

SandyM- I have kind of been guilty of this somewhat, I guess. As an endurance rider, I do ride on the trails faster than most everyone else- I would say 95% of trail riders here just walk and many of them are older folks or novices. I do slow to a walk to pass anyone on the trail, but I have come up on people pretty fast, inadvertently, going around corners and areas where you can't see too far ahead of you. I don't think its so much who can ride/control their horse vs. who can't. A lot of it is just different riding styles. If I startle someone, I always apologize and try to make nice, unless they are real pissed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ladypoco]

I have experienced all sorts of bad trail manners. You just deal with it. No big deal. I have been accused of being rude also. I didn't think I was but oh well. Life goes on and 100 years from now noone will care. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[3fatponies]

ladypoco,
I like your attitude. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saratoga:
A lot of it is just different riding styles. If I startle someone, I always apologize and try to make nice, unless they are real pissed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you may have hit the nail on the head here. I don't think anybody gets up each morning, thinking, "hot damn, am I gonna be a jerk on a horse today!" I think there are misunderstandings which can be blamed on everything from lack of communication to false assumptions to just plain bad luck. Assuming that somebody set out to wreck your ride is kind of pointless and bizarre anyway--it assumes you are important enough for them to bother(isn't it the exact opposite??), and it wrecks your day by pulling you into some type of petty battle over who is right and who is wrong.

After all, isn't it supposed to be fun? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif What's that saying? "Ride like you have never fallen?" Good advice, I think. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Trakehner]

Damn people, this sure got to be 6 pages of interesting panty-bunching, name-inferring and funny posts....kinda' fun.

We all have to deal with A-holes in every facet of our lives.

Road bicycle riders, deciding they're the "green" people, so healthy and screw anyone who wants to pass them...they're the good guys...just ask em'.

Old farts of any age, parked in the fast/passing lane of the highway, deciding that "55 is fast enough dagnabit!" and screw anyone behind them.

Oblivious people on bridle paths, pushing their bloody prams with one git a kid pedaling his little bike with training wheels as brain dead as a hammer all 3 of them.

The joy on the trail ride who's horse is too: spoooooky! out of shape, field-bound, tired, doesn't like to be behind and kicks and of course, the wonderful out-of-shape owner, scared of their "too much horse but I look good on him" but who won't ride a quieter simple horse.

Ah, it's fun! Horsie Road Rage! It's not the person who gets pissed who has the road rage, they're the result of the passive-aggressive who has decided, no matter what, they shall not be inconvenienced, bothered or the least bit attentive to the world around them if they just don't feel like it.

Just think, "Hey, Dinner and a floorshow!"

[ComingAttraction]

And let's not forget that even the well schooled trail horses can spook, or buck, or jig on occassion. Thats just part of horses, you need to always be prepared for these situitions. How do you accomplish this? Through training of course.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Trakehner:
We all have to deal with A-holes in every facet of our lives.

Road bicycle riders, deciding they're the "green" people, so healthy and screw anyone who wants to pass them...they're the good guys...just ask em'.

Old farts of any age, parked in the fast/passing lane of the highway, deciding that "55 is fast enough dagnabit!" and screw anyone behind them.

Oblivious people on bridle paths, pushing their bloody prams with one git a kid pedaling his little bike with training wheels as brain dead as a hammer all 3 of them.

The joy on the trail ride who's horse is too: spoooooky! out of shape, field-bound, tired, doesn't like to be behind and kicks and of course, the wonderful out-of-shape owner, scared of their "too much horse but I look good on him" but who won't ride a quieter simple horse.

Just think, "Hey, Dinner and a floorshow!" </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, have you been riding in NJ again?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[JoZ]

At the farm where I live and board, I was chewed out for putting a tarp over my truck while someone was leading a horse by. OK...

1) It's a working farm. I wasn't flapping the tarp for the hell of it, I was covering a load going to the dump.
2) I didn't even see the horse... when I said "you should have said something" the complainer said that yelling would have upset her horse even more.
3) If someone had been flapping a tarp and it bothered MY young horse, I would have asked them to keep flapping it while I reassured my horse and led her up to it.
4) The farm is 110 acres... surely there was another place/path/route that the person with the nervous horse could have taken.

But I was accused of lacking common courtesy. I guess I'm an FQ.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by JoZ:
But I was accused of lacking common courtesy. I guess I'm an FQ. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't feel bad, you have lots of company.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Sparks_5]

I did not read any other posts on this thread so this may have been said already...

Andie - if you can't run with the big dogs - STAY ON THE PORCH! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Riders in the midst of a competition have no obligation to slow down, or ask your permission to pass! They are in the midst of a sanctioned ride on a public trail doing EXACTLY what they are out there to do - go fast and win the race.

If your horse can't handle horses speeding up behind him - them ride on the trail when a CTR is not in progress, or stay home in your personal arena with the doors shut.

Simple as that.

[Sparks_5]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Equibrit:
gothedistance - thats pure cr-p!

Coming through - don't care if I endanger your life - I'm in a competition.

You have to be kidding me!

Either they close the competition trails to the general public, or they observe common courtesy. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

WRONG.

Pleasure riders have NO BUSINESS on a competitive trail in the midst of an endurance competition. Endurance horses trot and canter FAST. Their goal is to finish quickly, safely, and in good health. If you are in the way - you simply get blasted past. If you and your horse cannot handle it, then you better find another place to ride!

Sorry but if you cannot control your horse while another rider trots or canters past you on the trail, then you have SERIOUS TRAINING ISSUES THAT MUST BE ADDRESSED ASAP!! This is vastly different than a rider galloping up to your horse, body slamming you, throwing you off the trail, and injuring you, etc. But simply trotting or cantering past other horses is perfectly acceptable during a competition (especially when the victims in subject are pleasure riders barging into the competition in the first place!)

As gothedistance already stated - would you mosey around a jump course when a competition is under way? Would you jog your horse down the rail of a dressage ring while a rider is doing their test in front of the judge? NO. So why in god's name would you expect the entire competitive trail ride to SHUT DOWN because you and your spastic horse are on course when you shouldn't be?!? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Furthermore - if this was such a "dramatic, life and death situation" why did you not IMMEDIATELY DISMOUNT and walk your horse off the course and to safety?? Um...hello?? The fact that you remained on course for two other identical instances to the first, tell me that you were NOT in a dramatic, life and death situation. You were simply pissed because others didn't bow to your commands. Oh please...gag me...

[saratoga]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">WRONG.

Pleasure riders have NO BUSINESS on a competitive trail in the midst of an endurance competition. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Sparks- You are wrong, period. How many endurance rides have you managed? Sorry, but most endurance and competitive rides are held on public land, including State Parks, national monuments, State Trust land, national forest, etc. *Everyone* is allowed on this land. No one has a right to use it more. Likely, the ride manager had to beg and plead for the use of the land and it could be taken away at any moment. Please understand this!!! The park ranger, bureaucrat in charge, whoever the case may be, doesn't give a crap about whatever event is going on, whether it be a horse race, bike race, nature hike, whatever. They don't think that the person trying to win the ribbon has any more right to the trail than the person enjoying a Sunday afternoon stroll. What they DO care about is that no disturbances, accidents, or hassles occur on their land.

I have also done dresage and evented. Most of these events are held at privately owned stables, facilities that have been leased for the weekend for the specific purpose of the event, etc. This is different!!

[Sparks_5]

There are about 10 pages worth of opinions I would love to type out here, but I might as well spare everyone the boring jargon... lol

I do want to share something that happened to me: I was warming my horse up at the canter (slow, controlled canter) in circles out in the field. Some chick was riding a green broke youngster in the outdoor arena. They seemed to be doing just fabulous when suddenly I heard a blood curdling scream. I looked over and saw the greenie racing out of control with the chick hanging desperately to a slipping saddle.

I IMEDIATELY STOPPED MY HORSE and dismounted. I quietly walked up to the arena fence, and by this time the chick had fallen off. I said, "Do you need some help? Are you alright?"

She screamed back at me, "Just get out of here!! It's your fault anyway!!"

Okay - so I did. I mounted up and continued riding some quiet, controlled 10 and 20 meter circles in the field. Her horse just ran harder and harder - around and around and around the outdoor arena.

After another 3-4 minutes of this I stopped again and said, "Are you sure I can't come help you catch your horse?"

She screamed, "SHUT UP!!"

Okay - I shut up and continued with my workout - doing some 5 meter trot circles, pivots on the hindquarters, and some walking and stretching exercises.

Suddenly her horse JUMPED THE ARENA FENCE, taking down the top rail, and tore out at a blind gallop towards the back of the farm.

Perhaps 30 minutes later I was doing some lateral exercises in the indoor arena and this chick comes dragging her horse into the indoor - his mouth and chest were bloody. He had torn his lips to shreds by stepping on the reins attached to his bit.

She blamed me. She said it was my fault. She said if I hadn't been galloping around like an effing fool, her horse wouldn't be hurt.

Well, ya know what sweet cheeks? I was in the field cantering FIRST before you ever showed up in the outdoor arena. I stopped IMMEDIATELY when I saw there was trouble. I offered to help. Twice! You told me to shut up. So........I left the situation up to you. I ceased my cantering and took up walking and trotting instead, attempting to help your situation.

Ultimately WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN HORSE, AND OUR OWN LIFE. PERIOD.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sparks_5:
Ultimately WE ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR OUR OWN HORSE, AND OUR OWN LIFE. PERIOD. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen, Sparks_5! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Sparks_5]

saratoga -

Pleasure riders have NO BUSINESS on a competitive trail course if they cannot control their horse in a safe and effective manner. If their horse is spazzing out, jumping all over the place, rearing, bolting, bucking, etc. then it is THEIR responsibility to get the hell off the animal and get to a safer location. It's just that simple.

I am NOT about to pack my bag and go home because YOU cannot control your horse. I trained for this ride. I payed good money. I trailered a long distance to get here. I have invested my own sweat and hard earned money to compete that day.

NOWHERE have I said it is acceptable to go galloping past another horse and rider at breakneck speed. NOWHERE. But did you know that my horse trots faster than most horses canter? If I trot past you at 13 miles per hour, on the other side of the trail, leaving you a wide berth, you BETTER be able to control your horse. And if you can't, then you better get back inside to the arena.

[saratoga]

Oy vey, I agree that everyone is responsible for their own horse and their own life, but if you think you "own the trail", just because you are competing in a CTR or endurance ride, you are WRONG!!!!

[Sparks_5]

Ha!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif LMAO! I never said that I believe I "own the trail." However, I did say that if I go trotting past you at 13 mph and your horse pisses his pants, it's your problem. It really is not mine.

That being said - I would like to add that if I see you are in an immediately dangerous situation - such as there is a huge dropoff and your horse is spazzing, or your horse is racing out of control dangerously, or your horse is about to rear and smash your head into a tree, etc. then I will IMMEDIATELY STOP and do everything within my power to help you and your horse.

BUT if there is no immediately life threatening danger and your horse is just jumping around acting like a fool...then you're on your own.

[saratoga]

Sparks, I don't know about the original poster of this thread, but most people that you will see on the trail during a CTR or endurance ride, DO NOT know there is a competition going on. I don't believe I have ever been on a ride where the managers had posted signs that there was a ride going on. I'm sure this does happen, but I've never seen it.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saratoga:
Oy vey, I agree that everyone is responsible for their own horse and their own life, but if you think you "own the trail", just because you are competing in a CTR or endurance ride, you are WRONG!!!! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody said anything about "owning" the trail. All along this thread has revolved around the issue of controlling one's horse while around other riders. The assumption had been made numerous times that by claiming that, we are somehow endorsing tearing past other riders at a gallop, which is not true at all.

[Sparks_5]

You know what saratoga? I found myself smack in the middle of a competitive bike race one day on our public trail. My horse layed a golden egg when she saw 30+ bikers in neon colors speeding down the trail towards us. I jumped off and stood at her head in the ditch while they sped past us. They did their best to get to the opposite side of the trail, giving us much room, and for the most part they passed at single file. But I got off the trail and rode in the fields to avoid any further danger to myself or my horse. Securing my own safety is ultimately my own responsibility.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sparks_5:
That being said - I would like to add that if I see you are in an immediately dangerous situation - such as there is a huge dropoff and your horse is spazzing, or your horse is racing out of control dangerously, or your horse is about to rear and smash your head into a tree, etc. then I will IMMEDIATELY STOP and do everything within my power to help you and your horse.

BUT if there is no immediately life threatening danger and your horse is just jumping around acting like a fool...then you're on your own. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think Sparks_5 has said it well, and that has been our argument all along, unpopular though it has proven to be.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[saratoga]

I agree that when I am trail riding that I am responsible for myself, though I do expect the trail etiquette to be followed (ie. bikes pull over to the side to allow horses to pass, everyone asks if they can pass, pass by slowly, etc.) Yes, when I encounter a hairy situation I will get off of my horse too and get as far away as possible. But the whole point I am trying to make is , just because it is a CTR or endurance ride, you do not have any more right to the trail and you still have to follow etiquette, etc.

BTW, a long established bike race in our State park was cancelled a few years ago because of too many problems with other trail users. They've since moved their race to a more remote location.

[Sparks_5]

Thanks 3fatponies! I have agreed with your position throughout this entire thread. People seem to think that because I don't screech to a halt and tiptoe past you, that I must be galloping at Mach 10. Believe or not folks - there are a few speeds in between those two! haha

[Sparks_5]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saratoga:
I agree that when I am trail riding that I am responsible for myself, though I do expect the trail etiquette to be followed (ie. bikes pull over to the side to allow horses to pass, everyone asks if they can pass, pass by slowly, etc.) </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bikes pull over to the side and allow horses to pass??? Every time I ride on the public trail (maybe 4 times a week) I encounter at least 20 bikes. I would say 80% of all the bikes I encounter are serious endurance type people. They are clipping along at at least 18 mph. If they were to approach me from the year, they would overtake me very quickly because they are going so much faster than I. So why would it make sense for them to pull over to the side and allow me to pass at my measly 4 mph walk, they would just pass me again 20 feet later. So then they would have to pull over again, and let me pass again at 4 mph? Um....no. Doesn't make sense.

If we meet face to face, they simply stay on their side of the road, and I stay on mine. Pretty simple.

I have encountered the situation where I am fast approaching (trot or canter) a recreation biker just out for a toodle down the trail. I will drop to a trot and yell out, "Passing on your left!" Then I move way to the left of the trail, trot past, and then resume whatever I was doing before.

I have NEVER - not even once - seen a bike pull off to the side and let a horse pass. The horses move over off on the side and lets the bike whiz past, and then they continue on. They go ALOT faster than we do! Even if I'm trotting, these people are athletes who ride hard and fast and my 14.1 hand horse is no match for a marathon biker!!

So please explain the "bike pulls over to the let the horse pass" scenario a little more - I'm not sure that I'm following you on this one.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saratoga:
But the whole point I am trying to make is , just because it is a CTR or endurance ride, you do not have any more right to the trail and you still have to follow etiquette, etc. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Saratoga,
I won't argue with that, because I agree completely. I think the arguments started because the assumption was made that the CTR people galloped past, but that was never stated, just assumed. I would imagine it would be more likely that they went past at a working trot, expecially considering the description of the trail at that point, but only the people there for the event would know for sure.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sparks_5:
If we meet face to face, they simply stay on their side of the road, and I stay on mine. Pretty simple. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
That's pretty much how it works here, and the assumption is made on both sides that the person is in control. Kind of like "You don't crash into my horse, and my horse won't crash into you." I have never had any issues with it, but I have seen people on horseback who scream at advancing cyclists "STOP! Get off and walk! He's afraid of bikes!" which produces the opposite effect,as you can imagine....

[Sparks_5]

OMG, I hear ya 3FP!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I rode with a girl one time who spazzed when she saw a bike approaching. She yelled out, "Please go slow! My horse is just a baby!" Then when the bikes got up closer, the girl said, "Do you mind just stopping and letting my horse sniff your bike?"

The biker said, "Sorry, I'm afraid of horses." and kept peddaling.

My friend got pissed because "That stupid @sshole had no manners!" blah blah blah

I said, "Um, the guy is afraid of horses. He probably did not want a 16 hand, spastic, spooking horse towering over him, being forced to sniff his bike while he perches there vulnerable to being smashed by an animal 10 times his size. My gawd...think about it a little bit." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[3fatponies]

Sparks_5, I think the situation you described happens more often than not, where the other person sees not a horse, but a gigantic, squish-you-like-a-bug creature. Add to that a screaming rider, and it makes for a stressful day to the recipient of that temper. For all the crap I have taken, I still will say that the screaming and carrying on when another rider or person "disappoints" you is as big, if not bigger, a problem than what inspired it.

We had a local, self-proclaimed "expert" who felt it was her job to make sure all the area riders practiced proper trail manners. Great, no? Unfortunately, her rulebook did not cover the section which said, "mind your own business unless you can verify complaints, not just assume them based on unfounded gossip" and thanks to her interference, local riders lost the right to ride through a private camp, simply because her involvement made an issue where there was none before. After all, why should a property owner have to deal with a nosy, pesky idiot when he is capable of telling riders to stay away and then the idiot goes away, too? Instead of recognizing that she cost us one more location for riding, she felt that she did everyone a favor because she got involved(oh, the luxury of self-importance!)....

I have seen a lot of people in the course of my riding life who can't seem to get the whole "walk a mile in your shoes" thing, and while they don't seem to realize it, it reflects badly on us all. Sometimes it's smarter to take your lumps, move on and be grateful for the fact that you even have somewhere to ride where someone can pass you on a bike or horse.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[saratoga]

On the trails that I ride on, there is a sign of "trail etiquette" or whatever you want to call it. I believe it is an actual law, though I am not sure. Every trail user must yield to horses, bikes must yield to everyone. When a bike and horse are passing by in opposite directions, the bike must stop, pull off the trail and let the horse by. Like I say, I don't know if it is the actual law, but it is there on the signs and almost all of the bikes do it. If a bike is faster and passing from behind, they follow the good old standard, "Hi there, can I pass without scaring your horse," and then we pull over and they pass, usually they do this at a walk.

I am sure that all of us are pretty polite on the trail. I just get mad when I see things like, "Other riders have no business on the trail when there is an event going on." Like I said before, most people DO NOT know there is an event going on. Yes, it would be common sense for them to use another trail (if possible) when/if they find out there is an event going on. I certainly would if I found myself in that situation. But they are under no obligation to.

It would be extremely unlikely to be riding the trails and find yourself in the midst of a dressage or h/j show. Obviously, you would know not to get in the middle of it. I guess it would be more possible (though still highly unlikely) to ride inadvertently in the middle of an x-c course, though the jump judges would set you straight real quick http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But the fact is that the vast majority of distance rides are on public trails and share the trails with other people who did not know there was an event going on.

[LostFarmer]

I have enjoied this thread. Most of the trail riding I do is dealing with a cow. Leading a pack string with salt, moving cattle back to the correct range, or doctoring a critter. One time I had a couple of hot shot bikers come barreling down through a bunch of cows and calves I was pushing back to better grass. These two fools scattered the bunch (about 20 head) and then went laughing down the trail. I was PISSED to say the least. I gathered the group and finished moving the bunch. The same two riders tried it again on another trail a few weeks later. This time I took down my rope and roped a calf streching him on one side of the trail and me on the horse on the other. The two bikers had a choice to make go off trail around us, or get closelined. The speed with which they were traveling made both choices bad. Both riders opted for the close line. Both became dissconnected from their bikes. Now take into account I had time to undo my rope and rope a calf after I saw the riders. These to arrogant little jerks didn't have time to stop? Needless to say they were a little less agressive the next time they saw us on the trail.

Most of the time it is easier for me to move off the trail than the bikers so I do. But trying to move cattle out of their way is not possible.

Whenever I need a laugh I remember the OH Sh!T look on the riders faces when they realized they were about to be ejected. Priceless

LF

[3fatponies]

That's nice about the signs you have--we don't have anything like that(yet--I am sure that at some point, some liability issue will force it to happen). For now, everything is based on the idea that people have common sense and act on it(hey! why is everybody laughing?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

And I don't disagree that other riders have the right to be on the trails, even during a competitive ride. They do have that right, and if they can control their horse, it shouldn't be an issue, whether they want to walk or follow along with the ride for a few miles. If they can't control their horse, then I think it would make sense to leave the trail or get off and walk, rather than just being angry about it(think that helps your horse's ability to cope?!? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

I do understand what you are saying, and I agree with you--I don't think we are all that far apart in our opinions. I think it would be great if everyone were so courteous that this issue never occured, but then the question is "who has precedence for that courtesy?" For me, if I were in the OP's shoes, I would have hopped off, held my horse and yelled stuff like "Looking good, ladies!" and "Keep it up!" simply because in my mind, they had a schedule to keep where time was of the essence, while I did not.

After all these responses, I still have to wonder what people would have said if the CTR riders had posted "And this lady BLOCKED the path, screaming at us to walk while her horse acted like a crazy thing...." After all, isn't it largely a matter of perspective and the way a story is represented through inflamatory words that creates an emotional response? For example, we still don't know what gait the riders passed the OP at, since I believe "blasted" was the verb chosen, and it was never clarified past that.... Makes you think, no? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by LostFarmer:
Whenever I need a laugh I remember the OH Sh!T look on the riders faces when they realized they were about to be ejected. Priceless
LF </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

hey, I think you are a TK(Trail King) at heart! I would have paid good money to see that show! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sparks_5]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They blew on past, again despite the fact that my horse was wheeling and spinning </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right 3FP - the original poster describes the gait as "blew." I wasn't aware that there was a "blew" gait. Does it fall somewhere between trot and canter??

Andie - please clarify - what gait did the CTRs pass you at?

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sparks_5:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">They blew on past, again despite the fact that my horse was wheeling and spinning </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right 3FP - the original poster describes the gait as "blew." I wasn't aware that there was a "blew" gait. Does it fall somewhere between trot and canter??

Andie - please clarify - what gait did the CTRs pass you at? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Well, gee, Sparks_5, the "blew" gait I am aware of only occurs between the fifth and sixth beer, but maybe my horses are just special.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Barnfairy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I wasn't aware that there was a "blew" gait. Does it fall somewhere between trot and canter?? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>I do believe that just may be the tranter: the gait so-named by COTH poster horsepoor, and revered by white trash dressage enthusiasts.

[3fatponies]

well, I guess we are in good company then! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Ja Da Dee]

WOW, snarky trail riders.

I thought you endurance people were nice and fun. wrong...

Guess I'll stick with my Eventers and DQ's.

[3fatponies]

It's called a sense of humor--we use it to make fun of lots of things, ourselves included. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif No need to make into something it isn't. If we wanted to be nasty, we would have responded like others in this thread have--unjustified personal attacks, erroneous assumptions, etc.

And do yourself a favor--never judge an entire group of people from something you read on the internet, whether good or bad, as the manipulation of emotions/opinions through inflammatory language is very common in cyberspace. Get some first hand, face-to-face knowledge and then make up your mind. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sandy M]

I do think that if you continue to "blow" by people at whatever gait, and make the assumption that they shouldn't be out there if they can't "control their horses" under any and all circumstances.... you may soon find yourself on the receiving end of a lawsuit.

Yes, in an ideal world, no one would be out on the trails who wasn't in complete control, on a perfectly trained horse... but that ain't the real world, and "she should have had control of her horse" won't cut it if you sudden "blow by" someone quietly riding on a public trail - especially someone who is protesting that they are having a problem - and they end up getting hurt.

I do have control of my horse, and he is pretty well trained, and when some endurance types "blew by" me from around a blind turn, I at least had slight warning from my horse's super-alert ears... and all he did was shake his head and sort of hop in place for a few seconds - but it was still bad trail manners on their part, and certainly bespeaks a rather cavalier attitude toward "everyone else." And to think so many people in other disciplines think DQ's are nasty! If they only knew.

[appaloosalady]

Sandy M - I think you are assuming an awful lot, both about the OP and other subsequent posters. Without being there, how can you say that someone was "quietly riding on a public trail"? She may have been loud, rude, or demanding--you just don't know. The riders that passed her may have been riding at a working trot or they may have been galloping out of control-- again, you don't know. Endurance races are just that- RACES!! If you must blame anyone, blame the ride management if the trails were not clearly marked as being part of a conpetition. If the trails are clearly marked, then shame on anyone who rides on them expecting racers to slow down because their horse has issues.

As far as the "expect a lawsuit" comment, it makes me furious. Horseback riding in a public place(or anywhere for that matter) comes with inherent risks. If people can't accept that, they should stay in the arena or on private property. I am not saying that people have the right to ride helter skelter and purposely endanger other riders, but if I want to enjoy a nice, controlled canter on my horse, that is my right. Will I slow down when approaching other riders? Certainly, but if the sound of my horse cantering when out of sight scares another horse or gets it all hot and bothered, I apologize, but do not take responsibility. As said countless other times on this thread-- people need to grow up and accept responsibility for their own horse's behaviour and not play the blame game.

[Ja Da Dee]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Endurance races are just that- RACES!! If you must blame anyone, blame the ride management if the trails were not clearly marked as being part of a conpetition. If the trails are clearly marked, then shame on anyone who rides on them expecting racers to slow down because their horse has issues. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If endurance riders want private use of the trails in a public park, they had better start buying land.

[MissBri]

Been on both sides of this issue. Used to compete but now just out for fun. My old mare is extremely competitive, and really wants to be in the lead. She's retired now, so we just do pleasurable rides and bushwacking - I mostly ride alone as she still thinks she needs to go! go! go! if there's another horse heading in the same direction. As a result I will turn onto side trails if the main ones have heavier horse usage. She's much better now and will walk, trot along with others, but I read her body language and if she edges into competition mode, we go off alone. I think the OP should have gotten off that trail as soon as possible.
to quote my previous post
Rider with the green/misbehaving horse - If the trail was that dangerous, wouldn't it have been better to just go for it and get up the hill and off that trail as quick as you could - difficult for a horse to act up if he/she is moving forward, forward, forward. Especially after the first group went by. By holding him/her back you are essentially frying it's little brain.

Competitors are competitors - they are there first and foremost to complete the ride. Most (if not all) of the competitors I have met/encountered have been very courteous and helpful. Most have taken a few minutes of their time to be sure a rider in a difficult situation had a semblance of control before moving off. While pleasure riding/conditioning they usually are extremely helpful and are an unending supply of information in how to deal with 'trail troubles' - as most have 'been there - done that' at least a few times.


SO, if I had been in the OPs stirrups I probably would have allowed my horse to follow the competitors up the hill, then branch off. Also, whenever you're in what YOU consider to be a dangerous situation, get off and hand walk.

For instance:
My horse 'fried her brain' during an organized 25 mile ride in very hilly Vermont. She did fantastic the first half, relaxed riding with two other horsemen, then alone. We stopped for lunch and a hay break, remounted and went off alone. A few miles out trotting up a steep hill, a group of ten galloped by - they had disturbed a ground nest of yellowjackets. We made it to the top of the hill, but I could tell she was fried - my poor crispy critter. Way too much stimuli (yellowjackets, passing horses, at least 3 loose horses) - I dismounted and hand walked about ten miles in the rain as she just would not get her brain back between her ears - her safety and health are more important to me than anything else. I did remount and ride the last mile back - her mind wasn't completely back but close enough. That was our last organized ride, love her too much to fry her again.

So I understand both sides of this, but the OP needs to be responsible for her horse and be more aware of how to diffuse situations to keep her and her horse safe.
Just my opinion!

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sandy M:
I do think that if you continue to "blow" by people at whatever gait, and make the assumption that they shouldn't be out there if they can't "control their horses" under any and all circumstances.... you may soon find yourself on the receiving end of a lawsuit.

And to think so many people in other disciplines think DQ's are nasty! If they only knew. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sandy M

Wow, where do people get the nerve to start speaking lawsuits? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Gosh, You have a power-play issue to threaten ALL riders for the sins of the few. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif This type of response to obstacles in the trail (other riders) is plain ridiculous. Your reasoning is the direct result of horses being removed from public land...AND not riders that can control their horses, give way to pass, and have bothered to train their horses.

Instead you stand up for the persons that have untrained animals, can't control their horses, and are unable to give way to pass. What that heck is your reasoning? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Good lord, in the days of horse-n-buggy...what would you have done? Yelled at every rider that went passed and claimed they "blew by"???? Would all these riders be rude? (Sorry TQ's for using the rude word..ahhahaha) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I really can't accept this type of reasoning. I rode last week on my green mare, and I was the one that was rude IMHO. We never blew anyone off the trail...instead they had to pull to the side and allow my mare and me to swing our way through. I apologized, and yes...I hit my mare and browbeat her when she acted fussy and laid her ears back.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif"I" took responsibility for being on the trail, AND for all the situations "I" put myself in. "I" never expected another to stand still on command for me to get her to stop swinging, or wait for me to get back on the trail (as we crashed into the woods)...IN FACT...I suggested they PLEASE move on in the gait they were going...so "I" could further train my mare to ALLOW others to use the trail and "MY MARE" does not own it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Yes,...I was the rude one. NOT the people using the trail. AND YES "I" prefer riders to pass at a trot (canter ok too) as it gets them out-of-my-way quicker and "I" can get back to working the trail. This is the normal mode...can you understand that??? A NORMAL MODE. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif Don't you people get it? YOU took responsibility when you came onto public land...pure-n-simple. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

You go girl on threatening loss of use of land. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif YOU are the reason for "us" riders loosing privilege and NOT seasoned riders that have trained horses and KNOW and UNDERSTAND trail etiquette.

So you keep crying up a storm and involve all the authorities you can...you go girl. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif Maybe that goodie-two-shoe attitude will loose "us" some more land too while you're at it. I can only guess at how many people you have sued in your lifetime. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And you go ahead and make assumptions on everyone’s riding skills and etiquette too. Didn't know you rode will ALL of us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I rode with endurance riders for over 30 years...and I prefer them to the novice rider than can't control their horses anytime. Endurance riders know and understand WHAT a horse in trouble is. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif They offer help, and you get excellent, experience help...and some good advise too. Unlike your constituents that scream and yell, then expect you to stand there like some lackey at their beck and call.

Give me a break. Or should I say..."sue me" ahahhahahahaha http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ja Da Dee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> by appaloosalady
Endurance races are just that- RACES!! If you must blame anyone, blame the ride management if the trails were not clearly marked as being part of a conpetition. If the trails are clearly marked, then shame on anyone who rides on them expecting racers to slow down because their horse has issues. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

If endurance riders want private use of the trails in a public park, they had better start buying land. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

You and Sandy M should hold hands on the trail. I heard four eyes are better than two. Ahahha Or could it be two-heads are better than one. ahhahaha http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Either way the two of you will be all set. Cause you can both be rude, know-it all, and threaten all riders that dare to pass. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Ja Da Dee]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Ja Da Dee:
If endurance riders want private use of the trails in a public park, they had better start buying land.


What a snotty comment. Nobody said competitive riders want private use of a public trail. What we competitive riders LIKE is to share these trails with others that are responsible riders -- not yelling, spazzing, belligerent people who expect that THEY have sole right and private usage.

**Founding Member of the TQ (Trail Queen) "Learn How To Ride or MOVE OVER!!" Clique**
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Inmyopinion If you can't share the trail with riders who may not have your level of experience and are willing to risk their safety for your race, you should be the one getting off of the trail.


read these parts again ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">the trails are clearly marked, then shame on anyone who rides on them expecting racers to slow down because their horse has issues. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> It would have been better if you'd noticed the ribbons on the trees, recognized you were riding "on course" in a competition of fast moving horses and riders, and moved to other paths NOT being used. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Yes, I suppose my response would be scary IF the OP had said she was unaware of the competition, and she quickly removed herself from the venue at the first opportunity </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> ... there is no excuse for what she did AFTER she was made fully aware of where she was (being in the middle of a competition) and what she chose to do (deliberately interferring with those competitors) when, as a responsible, intelligent horsewoman she very easily could have immediately gotten out of the way and onto another trail NOT being used. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> While the three rules are good for general trail riding, I do not think that it is fair to apply them in the case of a pleasure rider choosing to follow the same trails while a CTR event is occuring.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I will stand my ground to the fact that: there is no excuse for anyone not to have the wisdom, decency and foresight to remove themselves as quickly and graciously as possible from a *marked* course or location of any active on-coming competition if they themselves are not part of that competition </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">YOu rode on a marked course, knowing your horse comes unglued about too much activity? You asked for trouble and got some, there you go. Sorry, no sympathy from this chick and I'm just a trail rider- you could have left </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> So let me see, these people are competing for points and ribbons, against the clock and they have to ask your permission to pass at which you grant them access? Maybe you should check to see what is going on first before you impose your rules on people who have just as much of a right to be there as you do. If you need a quieter place (which I need myself) do as I do and go somewhere where there are not as many things going on (a more controlled environment). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Ja Da Dee]

actually RTM Anglo, my horse is a saint on the trail, He's done CMO's, stands on a picket, and will go just about anywhere I ask him. That's one of the things that makes him a good eventer. We also do gallop sets out on the trails... but I'm always respectful of others using the park. I've trail ridden with jerks and novices, so have seen both sides and prefer to ride with someone who understands that horses aren't machines and can do unexpected things no matter how well trained they are. And that not all riders are great riders.

I've a friend with MS who rides a saint of a pony. She has some balance issues, but dearly loves getting out of the arena onto the trails. I guess, by your standards, she shouldn't ever leave the arena.

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ja Da Dee:
actually RTM Anglo, my horse is a saint on the trail, I've a friend with MS who rides a saint of a pony. She has some balance issues, but dearly loves getting out of the arena onto the trails. I guess, by your standards, she shouldn't ever leave the arena. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would NEVER say that ANYONE could NOT use the trail!!! That is my whole point. I would say...If you go onto public land...YOU are responsible for yourself and your choices AND your actions I think that this is the whole argument here. It is about being responsible for taking yourself and your horse to a PUBLIC area...THEN expecting others to change their ways to suit you.

It doesn't happen folks. You would not have the issue if YOU did not put yourself INTO it to begin with. If the situation is out-of-control...you only have yourself to blame.

Please, don't throw your friends condition in and expect me or anyone to be a monster and say he/she has no rights...that is plain cruel.

I will say, anyone who has make the decision to enter into public land, no matter if they are 5 years-old, or 100 years-old...has to be responsible for being there.

If your friend has made that decision, well, he/she has also realized that there might be some ramifications they might have to deal with. It is called being responsible for yourself.

Why is it this world can't seem to understand this? You wouldn't have the problem if you weren't there! And YOU made the choice to be there...AND No one else.

OK, in the point of kids...their parents made the choice for them...and if it was a poor choice...these kids can only blame their parents.

I don’t think anyone on this thread is heartless, uncaring, or mean-spirited. What they are saying is...be responsible for your choices. If you make poor ones, like riding on a weekend or in the middle of a marked trail and you are on a horse with passing issues...You have no one to blame but yourself

[saratoga]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by appaloosalady:
If you must blame anyone, blame the ride management if the trails were not clearly marked as being part of a conpetition.
</div></BLOCKQUOTE>


Wow, are you for real? do you realize that endurance rides take place over 25-100 miles of trail? Sometimes in loops that are repeated, but sometimes 100 miles of different trail? Do you appreciate everything that ride managers do to put on rides? What are we supposed to do now, put say, thousands of signs up saying, "There is an endurance ride on (date), with some riders going very fast going on today, please stay off the trail." (For starters, that would not sit well with whoever is "in charge" of the land. Trails are marked with small ribbons, most of them not necessarily glaringly obvious, and quite a few fall off or are taken off on purpose by random idiots. Also, they usually must be marked several days in advance, just because we can't do everything in one day. I will say it again, most people you see on the trail during an endurance ride, DO NOT know there is one going on, until one of us riders tell them. If you don't believe me, the next time you are on an endurance ride, slow down and ask that biker or hiker. If you are going by them in a manner that they perceive to be rude, unsafe and not complying with trail etiquette, many of them will get mad and they don't care if you are going for the "victory", even if they knew.

And please, if you are a distance rider or ever hope to be one, don't ever blame ride managers or hold them responsible for idiots out on the trail. Cause if they get pissed off and quit holding rides, the sport goes away.

RTM Anglos- you are obviously a very dedicated and skilled endurance rider, but you don't seem to be able to see other people's points of view. From managing a ride, the park rangers and other authorities are WAY MORE worried about a group of people racing than they are about some random person who can't ride very well and is scared of her own shadow.

the comment someone made about having to buy your own land to hold endurance rides is right on. We as distance riders are very much at the mercy of land owners/state parks. And of course I would never file a lawsuit against people racing their horses past me, but you know, some people would. Thats just reality and all your disdain for novice riders/chicken riders isn't going to change that.

[Ja Da Dee]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please, don't throw your friends condition in and expect me or anyone to be a monster and say he/she has no rights...that is plain cruel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? It's just an example. You have said that it's perfectly alright to disregard standard trail riding etiquette because everyone is responsible for themselves being there, and disregard that even the steadiest horse in the world can be spooked by something (anything). It's difficult enough getting non-horse people to understand that horses are prey animals, and can sometimes do unexpected things, have a bad day, get a burr up their butt, and be negatively affected by others behavior. It's not always just training.

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saratoga:
RTM Anglos- you are obviously a very dedicated and skilled endurance rider, but you don't seem to be able to see other people's points of view. From managing a ride, the park rangers and other authorities are WAY MORE worried about a group of people racing than they are about some random person who can't ride very well and is scared of her own shadow.

the comment someone made about having to buy your own land to hold endurance rides is right on. We as distance riders are very much at the mercy of land owners/state parks. And of course I would never file a lawsuit against people racing their horses past me, but you know, some people would. Thats just reality and all your disdain for novice riders/chicken riders isn't going to change that. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree about the management issue. This is why I am so upset. These attitudes will loose us the land we need to ride in. And for what? The sake of a handful of riders that can’t understand responsibility for their actions and their choice to ride horse’s with no passing skills.

Yes, we ALL must respect one another. I never said I had distain for ANYONE (other than goodie-two-shoe people that threaten lawsuits, or ignorant people who wish to control everyone but themselves)! I never said I dislike novice riders - Find where I do.

I said be responsible for yourself and your choices.

I said don't expect others to cater to your needs.

I said don't go whining and loose our land for ALL riders to use.

I said don't threaten experienced riders with lawsuits for choices you made.

I agree, endurance rides have many issues with getting land to use. But I so hate this LORDY attitude used by riders that feel they have the right to bring in a horse with issues onto public land...then expect the world to stop for them...or these said CTR or Endurance people are rude, or lacking etiquette.

I SAID <span class="ev_code_RED">be responsible for your choices</span> as have many others here have also. It seems many posters here can't understand this.

I said I too have ridden green horses and have had many issues. TRY RIDING A GREEN STUD Oh yes, then you will have issues. I do this knowing full well I will have problems ALL DAY. But I would NEVER expect another rider to cater to my needs. WHY...because I am on public land. Or would you say I have no right to ride him on public land?

Why is this so hard to accept?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[MissBri]

Ja Da Dee - I think the underlying message here is that each of us as EQUESTRIANS/RIDERS must take responsibility for our horses, their reactions, and any situations we encounter. It is up to us to diffuse what could be an explosive situation to OUR MOUNT. It is not up to the other users of the trail, be they mounted on ATVs, bikes, horses, or their own two feet. The horse we are mounted upon is our responsibility, that is the burden we carry with us each and every time we ride - ANY consideration to our predicament (ATVs shutting motors off, bikes passing slowly, owners leashing dog, etc) should be met with thanks and graciousness.
I am fed up with the me, me, me, it was them, them, them, let's sue, sue, sue, mentality. Buck up and be responsible for yourself and your horse.

I'm off my soapbox now - sorry if I sounded harse.

[Ja Da Dee]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Ja Da Dee - I think the underlying message here is that each of us as EQUESTRIANS/RIDERS must take responsibility for our horses, their reactions, and any situations we encounter. It is up to us to diffuse what could be an explosive situation to OUR MOUNT. It is not up to the other users of the trail, be they mounted on ATVs, bikes, horses, or their own two feet. The horse we are mounted upon is our responsibility, that is the burden we carry with us each and every time we ride - ANY consideration to our predicament (ATVs shutting motors off, bikes passing slowly, owners leashing dog, etc) should be met with thanks and graciousness.
I am fed up with the me, me, me, it was them, them, them, let's sue, sue, sue, mentality. Buck up and be responsible for yourself and your horse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Except in the real world, your actions affect others. As I said, Joe Idiot on the ATV doesn't know the nature of horses. I guess some posters here don't either. If your actions spook a horse and someone gets injured, in your mind, it has nothing to do with you. Maybe that's not being responsible for your actions. Isn't it easier to be respectful of others and use standard trail etiquette instead of telling people suck it up and hang on? As I've said, I've ridden with plenty of jerks in my lifetime and I recognize the attitude.

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ja Da Dee:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Please, don't throw your friends condition in and expect me or anyone to be a monster and say he/she has no rights...that is plain cruel. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why? It's just an example. You have said that it's perfectly alright to disregard standard trail riding etiquette because everyone is responsible for themselves being there, and disregard that even the steadiest horse in the world can be spooked by something (anything). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hold-up little lady! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif I NEVER said, "You have said that it's perfectly alright to disregard standard trail riding etiquette because everyone is responsible for themselves being there"

You need new glasses http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif...or are you just a troublemaker looking for a fight?

First you throw in your friend and look for a fight...Now you are saying I said this. Get a life.

I posted trail etiquette back several pages...maybe you need a re-read. Don't put words in my mouth. I never said you don't need to be courteous... And try to stay on track of the conversation and quit "mudding up the waters" for your own sake of arguing.

If you want to speak...then stay with the conversation and quit with the monster type labeling.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[3fatponies]

Folks, why are we back to drawing the inference that anyone who disagrees with the OP is some kind of reckless monster?? As I have said before, the choice of inflammatory verbs needs to be considered here: "blew" in place of a specific gait virtually guarantees that everyone will come down on the side of the OP.

Were the endurance riders so evil? Who knows? None of us were there to judge for ourselves, and those of us who felt that the story was not as clear have come down on the side of those riders. All kidding aside, that does NOT mean that we are running people off the trail while screaming war cries, nor that we will gallop past a rider in trouble while laughing uproariously. Assuming that we are doing so is ignorant and reactionary. Engaging in a debate is just that, and it is foolish to assume that it translates to anything other than that.

As for the lawsuit--puh-lease! Isn't this world tough enough without threats like that? First off, many states have laws that prevent lawsuits like that, and for good reason. Riding is an INHERENTLY risky sport, more so out on the trails, and to threaten to sue over an accident while doing so is evidence of a failure to accept responsibility for yourself and your horse.

Who here hasn't fallen off so many times that you have lost count?? To start laying blame for that is absurd--sure, some of those falls may have been because the horse reacted to external stimulus, but that is the risk you take everytime you choose to ride. What if your horse panicked because someone else's horse was frightened and bolted past yours? Assume the other rider brought their horse under control, but not before yours dumped you. Does that make them "responsible" for you falling, or is it only fair to consider that accidents happen when you choose to mount a 1200 lb. prey animal who has evolved to run before reasoning?

[RTM Anglo's]

Just for you Ja Da Dee

Cause you need a re-read...
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by RTM Anglo's:
OK http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Sorry, but this conversation is going agar.

Trail etiquette 101
& in no particular order; just ones I can think of off hand.

1. Always know your surroundings and how you might deal with situations…you don’t own the trail

2. When coming to difficult terrain, or something you feel is a problem…look behind you and around you - so you have time to deal with it. I.E. Going up a hill and someone is coming up behind you…do you have time to get up it…or are you going to inconvenience another?

3. Allow others to pass…don’t make them ride behind you because you feel you would like more room. Train your horse to give way. This one drives me nuts! I have ridden behind people that I have announced the desire to pass and there is more than enough room, but the rider refuses to give way.

4. Riding in a pack of horses…don’t get on the horse’s butt in front of you.

5. Riding in a pack of horses and you are the leader…don’t run down the hill and keep going up the next until the last horse has caught up. There is a whip the rope attitude with horses and the last horses get excited.

6. When horses are coming up behind and you wish to ride alone…give yourself time to get off the trail, or have your horse trained to give way, don’t wait until the last moment and have a problem. You have to be aware of your surroundings, again…this is public property.

7. When wishing to pass, announce it immediately, don’t just ride on the other persons butt and push their horse…the horse can feel you wish to pass…just do it.

8. Don’t stand in the middle of a cross trail and expect riders behind you to wait for you to make a decision, or worse make them crash through the woods to get around you.

9. Don’t expect other riders to stop their pleasure ride to convenience you, the trail is open for everyone to ride at their pace. Trotting by is NOT rude.

10. Don’t race up on an unknown horse.

11. The biggest…don’t let your horse sniff another persons horse…this is not cute, nor being social. Many serious injuries occur this way. Stay a respectful distance.

12. Don’t allow your horse to dictate how you work the trail. I hate riders that say “my horse likes to ride here, or at this pace…he/she will get mad if I go faster, or stand to the side.” Horses are NOT pets; they are 1000-pound animals that react to fear by flight. They need competent riders to train them to react in ways the general public can deal with. Otherwise we loose our rights to use public space.

13. Know how to ride before you take a horse out. If you can’t sit or post a trot, please stay in a group of riders who will cater to your limitations.

14. Gold ribbons on a horse means stallion…mare owners please stay clear and DON’T STAND AROUND. The owner wishes to inform you their stallion may react to a mare in season

15. Green ribbons means green-horse…please have on your horse if it is not trained.

16. Red ribbons mean the horse can be rude, may kick, strike, or bite. Stay clear, don’t ride up on, and never stand behind.

17. Never tie your horse by its bit EVER! Remove the reins if you must tie and use as a lead, either to the halter, or the headstall. This is a terrible accident waiting to happen.

18. Never tie your horse to anything lower than its chest, and never longer than its nose can barely reach the ground.

19. Always lean forward going up steep hills, and lean back going down. Please stay off their loins and keep the saddle up on the withers. Allow room for the cinch to be loose enough two fingers can go in minimal! Gosh these animals need to jump, stretch, and breath…the barrel must be able to expand. Get a crupper or chest plate if you have poor balance or a horse with conformation faults.

20. Be pleasant and smile at people on the trail, I have meet some great folks. Don’t be so wrapped up in yourself and issues that you loose sight that others are out to enjoy their day. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

[saratoga]

I think that the bottom line is that if everyone, even those participating in an endurance ride or CTR, follow the standard trail etiquette of slowing down, (passing at a walk is the standard etiquette around here, not trotting and certainly not cantering), asked if it was okay to pass and gave some encouraging words to the other person, there would be no problems.

Like with the quads and motorbikes on the trail: Most horses are afraid of them, til they've seen them a lot- they are so loud and go so fast. I'm kind of afraid of them myself when I am riding http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But around here, at least 95% of them will pull over and turn off their engines and let us walk by. Or if they are coming from behind, see us, stop, turn off their engines and we can pull off so they can pass slowly. It lessens the horses' fears as opposed to if they just thought, "Damn girls need to control their horses" and sped by.

Just common courtesy.

RTM Anglos- you've repeatedly belittled riders who can't control their horses. You've said they shouldn't be out on the trail and various other stuff. Many of these riders are novices and many are perpetual novices who never learn how to ride. And lots of people are just plain scared when they ride. Why not just follow trail etiquette and give these people a break.

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Ja Da Dee:
Except in the real world, your actions affect others.
Isn't it easier to be respectful of others and use standard trail etiquette instead of telling people suck it up and hang on? As I've said, I've ridden with plenty of jerks in my lifetime and I recognize the attitude. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gosh girl,
You are insulting us with this talk of a horses unpredictable responses...like WE DONT KNOW THAT! ahahhahaha

Give me a break! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

If your car always falls apart and you drive it...and it falls apart...who’s fault is it!

You need to understand that "WE" understand a horse will jump, start, and run away from issues that scare them. Relax...we know that. Glad you figured it out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It's not rocket science. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Anyhow, Train your horse to accept as many issues as possible. AND most importantly, train them that they can rely on you, and they will understand that.

Sure bad situations happen to the best of us. And I agree with 3fp, I can't even recall how many times I have fallen. If you ain't riding, then you ain’t falling.

We are talking about a horse that is unable to allow others to pass. This IS what the OP said! She did not talk about anything else. Other than she had 3 issues on the same day. I would call that training...NOT a squirreling horse, or a frightened horse...but an untrained horse that is spoiled and tells its rider what to do.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gifYou need to stay on track...maybe you need to read what is written as it is intended instead of mouthing off about things that are not even brought up.

If you like to share other experiences, fine, just don't go and incorporate them into this issue like they have been here all along.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by MissBri:
Ja Da Dee - I think the underlying message here is that each of us as EQUESTRIANS/RIDERS must take responsibility for our horses, their reactions, and any situations we encounter. It is up to us to diffuse what could be an explosive situation to OUR MOUNT. It is not up to the other users of the trail, be they mounted on ATVs, bikes, horses, or their own two feet. The horse we are mounted upon is our responsibility, that is the burden we carry with us each and every time we ride - ANY consideration to our predicament (ATVs shutting motors off, bikes passing slowly, owners leashing dog, etc) should be met with thanks and graciousness.
I am fed up with the me, me, me, it was them, them, them, let's sue, sue, sue, mentality. Buck up and be responsible for yourself and your horse.

I'm off my soapbox now - sorry if I sounded harse. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well said, MissBri! Our argument all along has been that once you leave the ring, you have no control over anything but yourself and your horse. Sure, it would be great if everyone stopped what they are doing when you horse got upset, but are you really willing to trust your safety to that hope?? I am certainly not, nor am I ashamed to hop off and deal with the problem while on the ground so I don't end up getting in over my head.

While we sit here debating this, maybe some good things will come about: maybe seasoned riders will keep in mind that they may have higher expectations of preparedness for the other riders they encounter, and maybe less-seasoned riders will consider that they need to be prepared for situations that may panic or startle their horses.

What is the harm in that? So we disagree--okay, well, that's fair enough. There is room for everyone's politely expressed opinion here and maybe we will all learn something from this discussion.

Saratoga- I think RTM DOES give novice riders a break, as do I. I WANT more people to come to this great sport and support it. But what I object to, as does RTM, is the characterization that we are mosters for saying that people need to control their horses on the trail or be aware that they have options, such as dismounting or taking another trail. I have spent almost as much time taking novice riders out on the trails as I have riding with experienced riders, and the first thing I tell them is that if they have any trouble, yell "stop!" and we will dismount, even if I am ponying them. Neither RTM nor I are monsters. We just want to see riders assume a little bit of accountability when they are on the trails, that's all.

[MissBri]

Ja Da Dee - For GOODNESS SAKE Girl you really need to CHILL - All I was saying is that each of us as riders need to control and be responsible for our mounts. If the horse is not under control - get off and walk.
Please chill out and read the posts before you respond - not one of us here have said that being rude or blowing by others was acceptable. Part of being responsible riders/horseowners is to exhibit and practice trail etiquette - part of that etiquette is to have control over over horse. Nuff Said.

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saratoga:
RTM Anglos- you've repeatedly belittled riders who can't control their horses. You've said they shouldn't be out on the trail and various other stuff. Many of these riders are novices and many are perpetual novices who never learn how to ride. And lots of people are just plain scared when they ride. Why not just follow trail etiquette and give these people a break. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
NO, I have said they must understand what a horse is, and does, and accept it.

I have no room for people that continuously act ignorant of life in its glory.

Horses are big, and have little brains
Humans are small and have larger brains.

I expect IF you chose to have a horse and ride it, no matter your skill, that you accept responsibility for it. Nothing more.

You wouldn't give a gun to a kid? We all understand that.

But for some reason people get on a 1000lb horse that has no training, or they have no training and expect everyone to accommodate them. These people do this over and over...and don't seem to learn. In my view this is rude. I am not rude...they are rude. They continue to blame others for their problems, and don't reflect onto themselves. They don't get training, nor train their horses. AND they continue to have problems.

Sorry, if this makes me a snob. I have no dislike of novice riders, and I am glad they chose to love the horse.

I don't have room for people that refuse to grow and learn, OR be responsible for their actions. These people are accidents waiting to happen...and I don't wish to be around to pick-up the pieces and be blamed for their lack of learning.

Should we all be responsible for them? I guess you think so. I don't. I try to help people and educate them if they are willing. The know-it-all ignorant cusses that refuse to see anything are a waste of my time. I don't want to see the damage they inflict upon their horses and others.

That is plain wrong.

So, I am rude to say this? I don't think so. I just call them as I see them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[eclipsefarm]

I was wondering if the views are different from East to West. Saratogo, do you happen to be from the western U.S.? Most of the other posters are painting a very different picture of their trails and trail users, one I'm not familiar with at all. Then I noticed most were mid to eastern U.S. We have a lot of those "courtesy/yield" signs Saratogo mentioned and for the most part, all trail users play nice-nice. A lot of trails are single track, mountainous terrain. Maybe the life and death thing makes people play nice. Some things have been said about green horses staying off the trails until they are better trained. I agree to a point, but some things can't be learned at home or on home trails. They can't face every situation there and sometimes they have to learn on shared trails to get seasoned. I see horses act up and I just think to myself, they are being schooled right now to be a better trail horse and just stay clear. No blame that they should never have brought the horse but I agree, probably not concurrent with a CTR. If this was a CTR, I thought the consistent pace was a fast walk anyway?

[saratoga]

Hi, yes, i am from the SW and have done rides in AZ, NM, CA, and UT. Many of them are mountainous, and/or single track, so trail etiquette does become more important. Maybe us westerners are nicer than those rude people back east http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Must be the cold weather that makes them grouchy. Actually, I'm originally from NYS.

[saratoga]

Oh and the pace of CTRs vary- most NATRC rides are very slow, mostly just walking, though AHA, ECTRA, and other orgs. can be from 5-7 mph, which involves a lot of medium trotting.

[herptile]

I completely agree with RTMAnglos.I myself am an older novice rider.I use the trails alot and I often see poeple who pose a danger to themselves and others.We all had a hard time learning to ride our horses in the open.I have been dumped many times,I try to give a wide berth to riders who are trying to school/train their horses on the trail.But I cannot condone riders who have no control of their horses at home taking them out in the open.Be smart,have at least some measure of control/ability before putting yourself,your horse and others at risk

[appaloosalady]

Saratoga - As a matter of fact I am for real and do know what rides are, I bred endurance horses for over 20 yrs. I should have clarified my statement though. All trails have trail heads- it would not be too difficult to mark the main ones with signs indicating a race is being held on some trails, basically getting back to "ride at your own choosing, this is what you are getting into". No, I don't expect markers every 50' of trail http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

As far as blaming management, I respect managers completely and would not cause them additional problems for anything, but most people here seem to want to play the "blame game". It really was a mute point anyways, because most people complaining say they were on marked trails http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I don't know where everyone else competes, but at rides in this area there isn't much walking going on, it is pretty much working trot and canter. If you don't keep this pace, you will not finish within your window and will lose points, which will pretty much knock you out of the running for placement. Nobody I know will intentionally place another rider in peril, but they shouldn't be expected to give up the chance to win a competition and perhaps year end awards just because someone can't control their horse and doesn't want to move to another trail even though ample opportunity has been made available to them.

My husband and I help all of our friends trail break their young horses, we are not rude, inconsiderate, or stupid, and we certainly don't expect everyone else out on the trail to change the course of their ride(either gait or location) just because we have inexperienced horses in our group.

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eclipsefarm:
I was wondering if the views are different from East to West. Saratogo, do you happen to be from the western U.S.? Most of the other posters are painting a very different picture of their trails and trail users, one I'm not familiar with at all. Then I noticed most were mid to eastern U.S. We have a lot of those "courtesy/yield" signs Saratogo mentioned and for the most part, all trail users play nice-nice. A lot of trails are single track, mountainous terrain. Maybe the life and death thing makes people play nice. Some things have been said about green horses staying off the trails until they are better trained. I agree to a point, but some things can't be learned at home or on home trails. They can't face every situation there and sometimes they have to learn on shared trails to get seasoned. I see horses act up and I just think to myself, they are being schooled right now to be a better trail horse and just stay clear. No blame that they should never have brought the horse but I agree, probably not concurrent with a CTR. If this was a CTR, I thought the consistent pace was a fast walk anyway? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I understand your post is directed to Saratogo, but must state; I nor anyone else here has said a green horse is NOT Allowed on a trail, or they are not invited, can use or anything else like that. Were did that come from? MY issue is I wish everyone to use the trail and NOT have some off-the-wall irresponsible riders ruin our using state land. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Please understand my post is not directed solely to you, but your post brought up several issues I wish to address.

Almost all the rides I have been on...and yes they are mid-east and south-east do not use complete marked trails as a main circuit for CTR & endurance. Meaning some portions are on state land (some have trail heads and are marked, whereas others are not considered marked)& other portions may be on gravel and paved road & some portions are on private land (with owners permission). So marking of the trails can be haphazard at best (people getting off course is NOT uncommon).

I have ridden out in WY and CO, and those trails are NOT marked. Take a wrong turn and you might never find your way home. Again, it is not the states responsibility to mark them, or put out signs to be courteous. Treat others as you wish to be treated. The golden rule. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Honestly, I don't feel it is the states requirement to have marked trails, or trail heads. Riding on any land IMHO is to be done with etiquette & common sense. Passing at a trot is permissible. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Come on folks, you have to have control over your mount & allow others to pass. It is dangerous to NOT train your horse to do so. (yes I know horses act silly some times)

Riding on mountains, one tracks, and woods is dangerous all by yourself on a green horse. Taking into account that there is only so much land available for riding guarantees you WILL cross paths with others. Teaching your green horse to give way to pass in high-stress situations such, as a mountain pass is plain ludicrous.

I agree that teaching a green horse proper trail etiquette will require learning on the trail, but problematic horses need to learn respect for their riders before entering onto public land, which is used by others...especially if the terrain is difficult or dangerous. There are other ways to teach trail to a green horse or a novice rider than jumping onto well-traveled or difficult terrain.

How about going on a group trail ride in an area that is not used too often, or on a day/time when others are not out? How about training your horse outside and have other horses pass back-n-forth and express your dislike to your horse when it responds negatively?

Why go out over and over again on used trails and reinforce negative responses from your horse? Why make scenes in front of other riders? Why endanger yourself, your horse, and any other passerbyer when you are aware that your horse is NOT learning the correct response?

What is wrong with doing a little more work on teaching your horse proper socialization in groups? Why must riders continue to make the same mistakes and NOT learn from them? Is it really the horses’ fault when the rider does not correct the negative response? I think not! It is the rider who brought them out there.

This has nothing to do with Rude CTR or Rude Endurance riders. This has everything to do with being unprepared, and continuing to be unprepared.

This has nothing to do with ME being a rude person for not appreciating untrained horses on the trail. Hell, I have been one of those persons on an untrained green horse. I at least take responsibility for my actions. I apologize, warn approaching riders, and reprimand my horse for its bad manners.

I have NEVER been accused of lack of etiquette on the trail, quite the opposite. I expect others to be responsible for themselves. I don't expect everyone on the trail to be as experienced as me. I understand and except that people must also learn and grow. What I don't respect are people who continue to blame others for there lack of preparations.

Insulting me, and others here is not going to solve this issue. Stating I blow people by and I am lacking in etiquette does not make that true...cause it's not. Looking to who is really responsible is the obvious answer.

I truly can't understand this reasoning...that people who don't train their horses are being treated rudely by people that do train their horses. Maybe a little more time needs to be spent on learning the sport or riding a horse than jumping on and going for a spin. Maybe understanding good manners is EXPECTED from a horse that is on PUBLIC land should be understood. OK, so your horse isn't perfect...fine, but don't blame others for that...you have only yourself to be held responsible for that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[eclipsefarm]

Hey there, RTM Anglos. I know you just said that your post wasn't directed at me. I get that, so no worries! Why another heated post, though? Our own trail buddies know best how we act out there, so there's no reason to defend ourselves here. I'm not willing to play that game here. I guess I haven't been sued yet, haven't pushed a fellow rider over a cliff, and obey all the trail traffic laws even if no one's watching. Yes, I stop to let squirrels have the right of way. Isn't that a fair indicator I'm being good?

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eclipsefarm:
Yes, I stop to let squirrels have the right of way. Isn't that a fair indicator I'm being good? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know--one of the squirrels told me that you made a nasty face at him,and he planned to consult an attorney about a possible lawsuit.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[appaloosalady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by 3fatponies:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eclipsefarm:
Yes, I stop to let squirrels have the right of way. Isn't that a fair indicator I'm being good? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know--one of the squirrels told me that you made a nasty face at him,and he planned to consult an attorney about a possible lawsuit.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLMAO http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[RTM Anglo's]

Ok,

Sorry, It just steams me when people threaten to complain about users of state land. I just wish everyone would accept the ways of life and not feel they have the right to throw off the entire system for the sake of silly issues brought on by their own lack of judgment.

So, I am done, I give up. Seems bleeding hearts never stop. People who refuse to see common sense will never see it, & chronic complainers will always look for new ways to rock-the-boat. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

I just get so concerned about the lack of state land for use in riding. When I was a kid, you could ride your horse just about anywhere. Then all these action groups got together and passed ordinances while "us" horse people had our fingers up our noses. Now, large portions of land are regulated to be free of the horse. Go figure, we cut these trails and we are now kicked-off. Activists don't like walking around the horse doo-doo, and claim we erode the trails. Now they are cross-country ski trails & hiking trails. We were kicked to the curb with no way to reverse what was done.

In Michigan, there are only half-dozen state parks designated for the horse in the lower half of the state, all others have been taken away. To ride on these areas will get you a $500 fine.

So, many horse owners now must trailer to these designated areas. Sure travel up several hours or go to the Upper Peninsula and we have more space, but what was lost in the lower state is phenomenal. All because of a few bigmouths that got organized and made it happen for them.

So, sure I get upset when this loose talk starts to go on. First we loose the land, then we loose more ride management cause they can't deal with all these "cry babies" complaining about an organized ride. People don't realize that the state doesn't want to hear this crap. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Their response will be to cut us out of more area. This will make it harder and harder for organized rides, and pleasure riders will find themselves limited even more than they are now.

I have been in "horse camp" areas for over-night camping, and I am amazed by the states requirements. These requirements are getting more and more strict. No pickets, or electric pens...you must use their posts and only have your horse use very small areas around these posts. Why? Well the state doesn't like how the horse tramples the ground...causes damage to the ground....go figure! It's a horse camp and the state doesn't like their heavy feet.

I find that all amazing. I find it all pretty frightening. I find this all incredible. And I realize that we will continue to loose if people continue to complain. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Then I look at my fellow horse person. And they don't seem to see this...nor do they wish to contain it. Many just keep complaining and causing problems within our own group. We are our own worse enemy. And instead of grouping together to stop the damage...we turn on each other and cause more problems. Don't we learn? Can't we see what is happening? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

Complain & threaten & sue! Yup. And the states will remove us more and more. Who wants to put up with a bunch of people that don't even respect one another? The state sure doesn't. Instead more organized groups will ban together (hell they get along and can organize) and the state will listen to them...and take over more of our land.

We are our own worse enemy, look at this thread. We still can't even agree on one simple issue. We still can't get passed the thought that we must be responsible for our own actions.

Yes, you are right...I need to give it a rest. But inside I just cringe at the comments made. I just can't understand the lack of care for "our reputation as a sport". http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[VCT]

Okay so I only read the first 5 pages of this post ... then it got a little repetative.

I'm not a competitive trail rider and I know nothing about the competition rules, etc. I do ride hunter paces and plenty of trails. I have retrained a few ex-racehorses and I know what its like to have a horse act a fool in a given situation.

In an encounter such as the OP mentioned, I would have just trotted or cantered on to get to a wider place in the trail where I could pull the horse off to the side, somewhere where I would be more comfortable with horses passing us. If a horse is acting like an idiot then put them to work - give them something else to do! If you don't feel you can trot or canter your horse safely on a trail then I don't think you should be on a trail with that horse at all.

If my horse acted like an idiot the first time I was passed I would have gotten off the course. If there was a open field area the competition horses were passing through maybe I would go work my horse in that area so he could see them going by and get more used to it.

The OP should have gotten off the course if she wasn't comfortable being on it. She made a very poor decision.

Also, I don't really believe the story. If a horse was spinning, bucking, rearing, blowing sideways near a sharp drop I HIGHLY DOUBT (so much to the point where I'm willing to say I think shes LYING or WAY OVEREXAGERATING) a bunch of experienced competative trail riders would just keep on trucking past her.

[MissBri]

Here Here RTM! -

In this little corner of the country, bridle trails, trail access, and use of those trails is dwindling fast. Between development, other organized trail users (mountain bikers, hikers, skiers, etc), private land changing hands, and a miriad of other reasons. We definitely need to organize ourselfs and put up a united front.
If we don't, the only trails that will be open to us will be few and far between.

So we CAN agree to disagree amoungst ourselves. However - wouldn't it be better for us all to present a United Front to the rest of public, be they trail users or those in control of who uses the trails?

If you reread MOST of the posts, it appears as if we do all agree on the key issues when trail riding.
1. Be Courteous
2. Observe Trail Etiquette
3. Be in Control of your Mount
4. If not in control, regain control with little to no fanfare (No screaming, name calling etc)
5. Be considerate of other trail users
6. Be aware of your surroundings

[eclipsefarm]

One more thing, RTM Anglos. I don't think what you are saying is falling on deaf ears at all. You keep repeating, and I keep listening. BUT like I said, I don't see what you see to the extent you see. We have groups that ARE active in conserving our trail systems and they are very PROactive. http://www.oregonequestriantrails.org and http://www.bchw.org If I didn't get the links right it's Oregon Equestrian Trails and Backcountry Horsemen of Washington, Inc. I have a friend who lives in Michigan now and she echoes what you say to a T. There are no trails in her area or you have to drive at least a couple hours. She doesn't jive well with the people there, but that's another story... I'm sorry for that. Instead of doing what you say steams you (complaining), why not start a group like this. I know, who has the spare time? Well, someone did in this area and everyone that follows gets to benefit from it. You seem like you have a lot of energy and fire and could get this done.

[mustangrider]

I belong to BCHW and we had a recent work party out in the wilderness to replace a bridge and clear a section of trail for all users (well, all except motorized, not allowed in wilderness areas). Yes, we are very proactive at working to maintain stock users rights to ride on public lands so we have to relate a positive image of horsepeople to the general public.

I'm adding to the rules MissBri lists:

7. Clean up around your trailer before pulling away from the trail head. That does not mean sweep the manure out and leave it in the parking area. If there is no place designated for disposal, put it in your trailer and take it home for disposal. The horse isn't going to die from standing on his poop for a little while. Nothing creates a worse image of horsepeople than a parking area full of manure.

8. When going up or down hills, riders going downhill give way to uphill.

9. If you encounter hikers, bikers, etc. ask them to stand off the trail on the downhill side. Predators come from uphill so horses are less likely to see someone on the downhill side as dangerous. Plus, it's safer for the horse to spook to the uphill side if they choose to do so.

Areas where we can go and enjoy our horses out on trails are getting fewer and fewer. Please do your part to reflect a positive image.

[Sabina]

I just peek in here once in a while and still cannot believe how defensive some people are about their lousy, RUDE trail etiquette.

You know what the theme has been in here? "WE can go faster, so we're entitled, and you're an idiot."

On and on and on it goes, you wouldn't need to be running off at the mouth so much if you'd slow down to pass and ask permission. If you had actually been DOING THAT in practice, there wouldn't be a problem, now would there?


As a person who has competed in both competative trail rides (successfully, btw), and has lead groups of mixed ability riders on trail rides, and numorous times has said..."go ahead and just get behind me and just follow and I'll get you through it" I just don't have ANY patience for wanna be comboys who like to shag other riders. Don't pass people at a faster gait unnannounced, how HARD is this concept to grasp and accept??? You are an embarrassment to me and every other responsible and kind rider who has to work EXTRA hard when we see another novice having problems, or when we see hikers or bicyclists or other trail users and somebody has to yield. Because they might think we're going to act like you! In too much of a hurry and consequences be darned!

Every time I go in public, like it or not, I am an ambassador for my sport, and that means I have to understand and adapt to the needs of others if I want to be able to continue, because I AM A MINORITY USER. I might be, and probably will be, the only horse the person sees that day...good experience, or bad experience, I'm it, and therefore I make the larger social impact.


I DON"T CARE how special you think you are, and I don't care if you're in a competition, you're still SELFISH to lecture somebody else who lacks your riding skill and had trouble on the trail.

[VCT]

Well, like I said earlier.. if they can't trot/canter their horse to get to a better area in which to be passed by the riders... then they probably should NOT be out on a trail on that horse. Thats basic safety, not snobbery.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sabina:
I just peek in here once in a while and still cannot believe how defensive some people are about their lousy, RUDE trail etiquette.

You know what the theme has been in here? "WE can go faster, so we're entitled, and you're an idiot."

On and on and on it goes, you wouldn't need to be running off at the mouth so much if you'd slow down to pass and ask permission. If you had actually been DOING THAT in practice, there wouldn't be a problem, now would there? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
And which problem are you referring to? The one that occurred when none of the posters outside the OP were there? Your comment doesn't make any sense--NONE OF US WERE THERE. I thought that was pretty clear, but I guess using that broad brush means you get a little sloppy in the details.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">You are an embarrassment to me and every other responsible and kind rider who has to work EXTRA hard when we see another novice having problems, or when we see hikers or bicyclists or other trail users and somebody has to yield. Because they might think we're going to act like you! I DON"T CARE how special you think you are, and I don't care if you're in a competition, you're still SELFISH to lecture somebody else who lacks your riding skill and had trouble on the trail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Explain to me again why we are an embarrassment to you, since none of us were there? And let's get this out in the open once and for all: USING PERSONAL ATTACKS IN RESPONSE TO A CONTRARY VIEWPOINT SIMPLY WEAKENS YOUR ARGUMENT. Saying we are "rude" with no basis in fact (have you ever seen any of us ride? Or do you just "know our type?" What other "types" might you know--are they perhaps different from you, maybe another race, color, sexual orientation??) makes it sound like you are babbling. Cut the abusive crap about how much of an expert you are on a bunch of strangers and debate this with facts, examples and logic. You may think we are shameful ambassadors for the sport, but you aren't looking too impressive with these antics either.

[3fatponies]

You know, the more I consider this, the more confused I am--what exactly is the problem here that we cannot discuss this politely and rationally? People will ALWAYS have opposing viewpoints, and regressing to the point where you are emotionally invested in "winning" enough to make it personal is pointless. I have never accused anyone supporting an opposing viewpoint of being "an idiot" or "rude" for thinking differently, whether or not I can see their point. If you do not agree, then state that you do not agree and explain why in a logical, rational, POLITE fashion. If you are incapable of doing so because you cannot control your emotional response, then simply don't respond. There is no shame in that--we all have "hot button" topics that reduce us to screaming hotheads--so if that is the case, then write off what you disagree with as unimportant, and move on. But if you want to discuss or debate this, then please adhere to the basic concept of courtesy.

[3fatponies]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by gothedistance:
End of discussion. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Buuuuut Moooom, I don't want to stop, I am having soooo much fun! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Sabina: On and on and on it goes, you wouldn't need to be running off at the mouth so much if you'd slow down to pass and ask permission. If you had actually been DOING THAT in practice, there wouldn't be a problem, now would there? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who is running off at the mouth? Who has even mentioned anyone here not slowing down or asking permission to pass?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Sabina: As a person who has competed in both competative trail rides (successfully, btw), and has lead groups of mixed ability riders on trail rides, and numorous times has said..."go ahead and just get behind me and just follow and I'll get you through it" I just don't have ANY patience for wanna be comboys who like to shag other riders. Don't pass people at a faster gait unnannounced, how HARD is this concept to grasp and accept??? You are an embarrassment to me and every other responsible and kind rider who has to work EXTRA hard when we see another novice having problems, or when we see hikers or bicyclists or other trail users and somebody has to yield. Because they might think we're going to act like you! In too much of a hurry and consequences be darned! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Who is an embarrassment...and how? Please take the time to address facts. I have no clue where you got this from? Why are you tooting your own horn?<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Sabina: Every time I go in public, like it or not, I am an ambassador for my sport, and that means I have to understand and adapt to the needs of others if I want to be able to continue, because I AM A MINORITY USER. I might be, and probably will be, the only horse the person sees that day...good experience, or bad experience, I'm it, and therefore I make the larger social impact. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Glad your riding experience involves being a care-taker of others. That does not mean every rider must be like you. Some of us like to ride our own ride...be it pleasure or competition and not cater to others. Novice riders are great...I have no issue with them, and like yourself have helped many. This is about chronic novice riders that don't realize they are ALSO being rude by putting themselves, their horse, and any passerbyer in danger. Why do I say this? It is because many feel they don't feel the need to train their horse, or themselves. Where are you going with this?
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> Originally posted by Sabina:
I DON"T CARE how special you think you are, and I don't care if you're in a competition, you're still SELFISH to lecture somebody else who lacks your riding skill and had trouble on the trail. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>Sorry to offend you. Not my intent, nor the goal of my posts. I write what I do because I care. I care about EVERYONE on the trail, and I am adult enough to realize that I am responsible for my horse and others are responsible for their horse I don't think I am too far off here.

I never meant to cause your so much haterd. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Honestly, I can't understand your post at all. I does not pertain to anything here. I fail to see where you are coming from. Therefore I ask you to please explain your point more rationally, and please quote who said what on this thread that lead you to believe anyone here is guilty of all your insults.

Awaiting your response. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by eclipsefarm:
One more thing, RTM Anglos. I don't think what you are saying is falling on deaf ears at all. You keep repeating, and I keep listening. BUT like I said, I don't see what you see to the extent you see. We have groups that ARE active in conserving our trail systems and they are very PROactive. http://www.oregonequestriantrails.org and http://www.bchw.org If I didn't get the links right it's Oregon Equestrian Trails and Backcountry Horsemen of Washington, Inc. I have a friend who lives in Michigan now and she echoes what you say to a T. There are no trails in her area or you have to drive at least a couple hours. She doesn't jive well with the people there, but that's another story... I'm sorry for that. Instead of doing what you say steams you (complaining), why not start a group like this. I know, who has the spare time? Well, someone did in this area and everyone that follows gets to benefit from it. You seem like you have a lot of energy and fire and could get this done. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
eclipsefarm,

Sorry to come off complaining. Although reading it made me smile http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

But on the other side. I really don't have a lot of spare time. I have a full plate. Although if there was a group going in MI, I would be able to contribute some. I really don't have the time to start-up a group. Yes this is one of my pet-peeves. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

mustangrider

I so agree with you. I have gone to some sites that are completely trashed! I have to clean the site before I turn-out my horse.

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by VCT:
Well, like I said earlier.. if they can't trot/canter their horse to get to a better area in which to be passed by the riders... then they probably should NOT be out on a trail on that horse. Thats basic safety, not snobbery. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like you need to add a signature to your profile?

Might have something to do with a T and a Q....or maybe a K...that will work! ahhahahaha

Love your honesty. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[VCT]

RTM Anglo's,

Heh, thanks.. I think..http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I dunno what these "Cliques" are.. I'm kinda new to the board. I see the TQ in your signature.. whats the 'K'?

[3fatponies]

Q=Queen for us ladies, and K=King for the men.

[MissBri]

TQ = Trail Queen
TK = Trail King

Cliques are just automatic signature lines you can add by going to your 'Profile' and editing it.
Hope this helps!

[RTM Anglo's]

VCT,

Yes, I see you have a BF...so I would say you are a TQ. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

It is just a little fun many of us have when certain situations arise and a labeling has been done. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If you read way back on this thread...I, 3fp & gtd, were all labeled as being rude, and thinking we were TeeQ's or something to that sort. We all thought it was funny...and liked the label in our own sick way. Therefore we adopted it, along with several others...then added it to our profile signature. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

We were labeled with being know-it-all that don't care about others with less skill. Although far from the fact...we do understand that we have vast experiences, understand our equine friends and what is expected of us out on the trail...hence being responsible. Therefore "we must be TQs" ahhahahahah http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

If you look further on the BB...you will see 3fp's made a thread about laughing at ourselves...as others on this thread have personalized many of their posts ( and not stuck to facts) and have attacked us so called "TQs". That thread is all in fun a stress reliever so-to-say.

Although many of the issues discussed here on this thread are very important...and should not be misconstrued by our "off-the-wall" posts on the laughing thread.

Your comment about being responsible and expecting riders to control their mounts just puts you in the TQ camp...as others feel we are too harsh on chronic novice riders. Again...we have nothing against a novice rider...but we do expect them to learn, progress, and apply trail etiquette when on the trail. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

The opposing camp feels that a rider does not need to be responsible, or learn to ride, or learn to control their horse...AND experienced riders should come to their aid at all times, And put up with their screaming and name calling.

You don't have to add the signature...I was just being funny and inviting you that is all.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[VCT]

Ahhhh, thats what the Cliques are... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif


I will add it later.. I think its funny... right now I'm waiting on tenterhooks for my new horse to arrive! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I just don't believe the OP period. I've retrained a few OTTB's and they can sometimes be pretty stupid on the trail. When my horse has been having a fit at a hunter pace, which we were entered in for his experience, the people were always courteous as they trotted or cantered by shouting out beforehand, "Ok to pass?" cuz obviously the horse was being a fool and I'd either get a move on to a better area to be passed or I'd yell back, "Yeah its fine, sorry about this wingnut!"

*shrug*

[MissBri]

RTM and 2FPs, do I qualify?

[MissBri]

OOPS that should be 3FatPonies not 2!

[3fatponies]

MissBri, actually there are four and only two are fat, so you were right! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Sure, you are invited--if you want to go to the "laugh about it" thread, you can see some of the qualifications we have for joining. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/831204994/m/581205137 Feel free to suggest any more that come to mind! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[MissBri]

I've actually posted on that thread a few times, but wasn't sure I'd qualify - I'll go back and check......

[3fatponies]

Oh yeah, girlfriend, you qualify! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[RTM Anglo's]

Does anyone know what happened to andie?

ahhahahah http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I sort a feel sorry for this poster...I am sure he/she never meant to cause such a hornets nest. Although posting on a CTR and Endurance forum should have alerted andie to what many of posters would have replied with.

I sincerely feel the OP didn't realize nor comprehend he/she’s initial post of the events that day with her description of the event of "passing" was in fact also her responsibility. I am sure she/he understands now, although he/she's thoughts on that will remain to be a secret to us. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I also feel bad for the ride management on that particular ride, as the OP has posted the name and has accused the participating riders of being “rude”.

But alas, this conversation has proven to be interesting. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Yes, I am surprised at the heated responses that feel opposite of my own. But, that is what makes the world go-round I guess.

[saratoga]

Who knows what happened on the trail that day with Andie and those CTR riders, but I wouldn't represent your attitude of being typical of all endurance/CTR riders, RTM Anglo's. You're definitely the loudest and most obnoxious though.

[3fatponies]

Oh come on, don't lower yourself into that mudpit--there's no reason to make this personal once again, is there? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You could have left off the last sentence and gotten your point across. Postings on an internet bb are not a good way to judge the person as a whole. They may be indicative of the person they are on the internet, but that is all it means. This has been fun, don't you think? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[RTM Anglo's]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by saratoga:
Who knows what happened on the trail that day with Andie and those CTR riders, but I wouldn't represent your attitude of being typical of all endurance/CTR riders, RTM Anglo's. You're definitely the loudest and most obnoxious though. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>
Gosh, you are so personal! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif Please I ask you...if you have a certain grievance with me...why not quote my posts and ask for clarification and/or post your opinion of what was said. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Instead your posts are too unstable, have no meaning, and are rude. I have not attacked you personally and called you loud and obnoxious. But then it really doesn't bother me like it seems to bother you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I understand and appreciate opposing opinions. But your comments make it hard to respect you...as you make no point, but only attack.

You would do your camp a much better service if you would just stick to facts, and logical thinking so that other may understand your reasons for being so upset. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just suggestions http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Why is this that you are taking this entire thread so personal? I don't think the majority of us are. What is so wrong with the expression of a opinion? I love expression of opinions...that is why I post on a BB. I like to hear everyone’s opinions, and I also like opposing opinions.

Just because others don't agree with you doesn't make it a crime, nor does it mean you are lacking in judgment...it just means you march to a different drum. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I think many of the people that feel the way I do with regard to a two-way street...meaning mutual respect on the trail - have been continuously insulted from the people here (including yourself) with generalizations and projections that are not deserved. When we voice this...your camp doesn't clarify their statements, but slips out-of-the-room, only to reappear sometime latter and squeak out another one. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

We have laughed at your camp's labeling, and have even enjoyed it! 3fp's has a very funny thread going that you are more than welcome to come take pot shots at us in. But you don't choose to do that there, but do it here instead on a thread that is more serious in content.

What are the ramifications of this thread? Heck, I am standing for something. I am standing for my fellow CTR's and Endurance riders. I am standing for the protection of state land use...free from silly complainers that will threaten the future use. I am trying to explain the seriousness of the accusations being made.

This is NOT just some silly little complaint being made by a pleasure rider...NO. This was made on a public BB, with the ride named, and with the accusation that CTR's are continuously rude...like we are ALL banshees or something.

I am assuming that you feel the rights of one chronic novice rider far out-weigh all the things I find important. Therefore, yes, I will respond. Especially when this issue the OP'er had is so trivial compared to the big picture.

Sure, if the situation was as extreme as to what the OP'er stated, and she was truly blown by not once, BUT THREE different times by three sets of riders...gosh...the whole CTR circuit must be mad! We are all a bunch of yahoo's including yourself...as you are an organized trail rider. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Don't you see where you and others have groups us all into one pot of "elitist" riders that don't give a fig? So you say..."no...Not me". And it is OK for you to say that. But you can find the time to point at others here posting and protecting the organized riders. You can't be on both sides of the fence. It weakens your argument, as it doesn't flow

Assumption: All CTR and Endurance riders are "elitist" and are rude to novice riders

Fact: I am a CTR and Endurance Rider

Fact: I am an elitist and am rude to novice riders.

Gosh...what a theory! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif But your camp wrote that.

You have no proof to anyone’s riding etiquette here, but continue to act as though you do. How is that? Did you call my mother, my friends, interview my fellow riders, and ride with me on the trail? Or are you just jumping to conclusions???? As my point of view doesn't match your own. So you judge me, and others that share my point of view, label me...and I wear your label (I find it funny and can laugh at myself...you should try it sometime) and yet you are still not happy and have to insult me directly.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Why not state your case, and earn a little respect for it instead?

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[3fatponies]

RTM,
Your ability to inflame, irritate and instigate personal attacks against your postings has resulting in being named sponsor of our highest annual honor. Please move to the other folder and publically accept that position.