new registry? confused... [Archive]

PaintBy#s

Nov. 9, 2003, 05:40 PM

I believe that the owner of the registry is hoping to make a new registry that promotes and supports the ASB in WB breeding. It has been done before obviously with the kalamino stud and the art deco X- (the name is skipping my memory right now)

I believe that these are prime examples of what the registry is trying to establish.

The purebred ASB and the WB stallions otherwise listed that are not ASB crosses I am assuming they feel are good candidates for the ASB X WB breeding.

I think the classical/ASB category should be called "classical" only just because the ASB don't seem to be there, I see how that is somewhat confusing.

I am very fond of the ASB crosses I believe the goal was achieved well with kalomino and the art deco/ASB X. Maxamillion is also a nice stallion.

Some of the ASB are "halter-y" and long backed but you have to keep in consideration the mare also, some mares may need that "long back" to lengthin and improve apon themselves.

Anyways. I am not the owner of the registry or founder. i think the best possible option is to email the originator and ask her what exactly her goals are http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I'm sure she can unravel some of the confusion for you!

Good luck http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

ssaymssik

Nov. 9, 2003, 05:55 PM

CG- why don't you register your zorse? Is that a dare BTW?

As for my sig - it was there before yours, I just had insect instead of bug, and nobody got it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Stupid people bug me

showjumpers66

Nov. 9, 2003, 06:23 PM

A long back is the least of an ASB's problems ... have you ever watched them move?? Most of them could not get under themselves or collect and round to save their lives. What about those long, sloping pasterns or the sickle hocks? Keep in mind that these qualities have been bred into these horses for generations. So unless you are willing to accept these qualities or spend generations fixing conformation and movement faults, stick with warmbloods who have been bred for generations to specifically be sporthorses.

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

PaintBy#s

Nov. 9, 2003, 06:29 PM

The gaited i agree with Showjumper. I do have to say that I have seen some really lovely "WB" looking ASBs that could pass as a WB all on their own. it all depends really. I must say I do love most of Audrey miles's ASB stallions, very good bone shorter backs and lovely movers.

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

Delyth

Nov. 9, 2003, 09:01 PM

I could have sworn there was a long discussion about this in the early spring, maybe the thread was deleted? here's a link to the same discussion only on a different BB Americana Sporthorse Registry (http://www.ultimatedressage.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=19156)

DoubleTwistedWire

Nov. 9, 2003, 11:27 PM

Well, everything's a "warmblood" now, so I suppose this is just another choice for those who want to register their mutts http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

LAZ

Nov. 10, 2003, 05:57 AM

Boy, you guys are pretty harsh.

I'm not planning on breeding but read these forums for information in case I ever do some day.

What I get out of threads like this is nothing useful and a bunch of hatefulness.

Just out of curiosity, are you challenged in any way by this registry? Damaged? If not, why are you so mean about it?

Jasmine

Nov. 10, 2003, 06:08 AM

LAZ--This gets to be a big issue for breeders beacuse of the money that goes into breeding true Warmbloods. Think about it this way...a backyard dog breeder decides that they want to breed dogs. They don't have a female with papers, so they breed to something that will make the pups look like a German Shepherd. They call them "American Shepherds," create their own registry, and sell the pups for tons. Basically using the German shepherd's name and reputation even though they have nothing to do with the new "breed."

Also, the American Warmblood can be something of a joke to some now. There have been so many people breeding TB/Draft crosses and calling them "American Warmbloods" that the true American Warmblood Resgistry is damaged. The crosses mostly (not all of them) are of lower quality because they are not bred as carefully as most warmbloods are. One of the reasons I won't deal with AWR is because of this. I've heard too many very negative comments about the Draft cross "american warmbloods" to want to be a part of that, even if AWR does have true warmbloods with German/Euorpean herritage. So, they are damaged AND challenged by yet another Mutt Registry calling themselves "american warmbloods."

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

TKR

Nov. 10, 2003, 06:44 AM

Instead of "reinventing the wheel" when it's already out there, these folks need to just use these horses for what they do best, not try to fit a square peg into a round hole, so to speak. If the few that are not the usual type are competitive, then use them for competition, they won't necessarily breed that way. JMHO
PSG

PaintBy#s

Nov. 10, 2003, 07:52 PM

Im curiosu as to how the registry is doing. They have a lot more stallions then when I saw last, which is great. I hope for all their hard work that they are doing well.

Does anyone know?

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

chronic

Nov. 11, 2003, 01:10 AM

Asplashofchamp... I wouldn't worry too much about the registry. I know the one set of "dutch" stallions that are on there from [a certain] farm and that place is chock full of loony people let alone poor quality stallions - just like them to jump on a sinking ship like this to try to get some breedings. I would question the other stallions on there from a legit breeding standpoint. I would take any of those off my potential breeding list if they support such a registry and I bet other breeders do too. So I wouldn't worry about them getting more of the breeding market whatsoever.

[This message was edited by Erin on Nov. 11, 2003 at 10:36 AM.]

Erin

Nov. 11, 2003, 06:37 AM

Chronic, let's not bash specific farms please. That's not really pertinent to the discussion.

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:14 AM

Here is another "new" registry but this one has a goal of recreating a particular type of horse, not just grabbing the tail of an established market.

Spanish Jennet Horse Society (http://www.spanishjennet.org/index.shtml)

They have an interesting diagram of coat colors in their pinto spotted and appy spotted groups.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

QuoVadis

Nov. 11, 2003, 08:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Jester:
It's an organization of people who own horses that aren't accepted to any WB registry - so they created their own registry with an important sounding name so they could be "special".

Kind of like the misfits who form their own "club".

Stupid people bug me<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This reminds me of people who start their own church because they cannot get along with other church goers.

But realisitically, Americans must have too much money. In Canada, we cannot form new registries. All registries for all animals are controlled by Ag Canada and the Animal Pedigree Act.

For Warmbloods, we have the Canadian Warmblood Association ( www.canadianwarmbloods.com (http://www.canadianwarmbloods.com) ) which follows the rules of the World Breeding Federation. The Canadian Sport Horse Association (www.canadian-sport-horse.org (http://www.canadian-sport-horse.org)) is another breeding assoction for sport horses with slightly different rules of entry. i.e. they do not have to have 3 generations of approved WB content. However, they are also members of the World Breeding Federation.

Both registries have appendix or auxiliary books for mares that don't quite qualify for main studbook. It seems to work well, keep everyone happy, and makes for very strong organizations that are both highly respected.

(I am one of those stupid people who can't spell, or I have stupid fingers!!)

QUO VADIS STABLE
http://www.quovadisstable.ca
"Breeders of quality sport horses with World Class Bloodlines!"

[This message was edited by QuoVadis on Nov. 11, 2003 at 12:52 PM.]

Breyer

Nov. 11, 2003, 08:55 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Just out of curiosity, are you challenged in any way by this registry? Damaged? If not, why are you so mean about it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree LAZ.

As a newbie here, out of curiosity, I decided to browse through this registry site. I read through all the standards and seem to "understand" what they are attempting to accomplish.
If this registry is not well known, and "new", I am confused as why one might come to a board like this to ask for information about them. Wouldn't it be more logical to e-mail direct to the registry for more information?

As for the bashing of a "certain" farm, are not other posters doing the same by specifically naming & bashing this "registry"? JMO

As for attempting to "create" the next "Olympic caliber" horse within this registry, I say- MORE power to them!! What would it hurt to try? Maybe you would be happier if the registry goal were to produce "unrideable pasture ornaments". What self respecting sporthorse registry wouldn't want their horses to be bred with hopes of reaching such heights??

Jasmine

Nov. 11, 2003, 09:08 AM

Breyer, no one is objecting to the registry per se. We are all just sick of the load of "warmblood/sporthorse" registries that have cropped up. The registries that promote their horses as warmblood, but are really draft, TB, ASB, or whatever crosses are confusing to buyers. Those of us that put the time, money, and effort into breeding European Warmbloods (which have been established breeds for a very long time) find this annoying. It damages the reputation of American bred horses as a whole. I really don't think anyone would have a problem with this registry if they didn't have the word "sporthorse" in the name.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 09:20 AM

Jasmine--

I thought it was the word "warmblood" that bothered you???

I do have a question, and this is a legit question, at what point in time did Euro Warmblood registries begin using "warmblood" to describe their horses? Such as Hanoverian Warmblood, Holsteiner Warmblood, Dutch Warmblood?

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 09:22 AM

There is a reason why certian offspring of registered horses within a particular breed cannot be considered for that breed's full registry. STANDARDS of quality which the registry adheres to by strictly maintaining their book.

Some people choose to ignore the fact that their horse isn't up to the standards of quality required. Sometimes some of those people, instead of gelding their colt that failed inspection, leave the horse entire and register it with a less discerning group.

Some even find that impossible and start their own "registry".

ALWAYS ask for documentation when inquiring about breeding to a horse of a stated breed. In most true warmblood breeds, just because the dam and sire were fully registered doesn't mean that the offspring is.

Many well known breed organizations (Analusian, Morgan, Arab, etc) have half bred papers available for their members. They have classes in their breed shows for part breds.

In this particular case, as it has seemed to me so far, a group is trying to take non-type ASB's and other stallions and crossing them willy nilly and promoting the result as a new "breed".

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

LAZ

Nov. 11, 2003, 09:29 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Breyer, no one is objecting to the registry per se. We are all just sick of the load of "warmblood/sporthorse" registries that have cropped up. The registries that promote their horses as warmblood, but are really draft, TB, ASB, or whatever crosses are confusing to buyers. Those of us that put the time, money, and effort into breeding European Warmbloods (which have been established breeds for a very long time) find this annoying. It damages the reputation of American bred horses as a whole. I really don't think anyone would have a problem with this registry if they didn't have the word "sporthorse" in the name.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>.

Well, weighing back in here, as an outsider, I still don't see your point. It still reads as though the breeders of "European Warmbloods" that have weighed in on this topic are of the opinion that no breeders should be allowed to breed anything other than the European types. I think of draft/tb crosses as draft/tb crosses, but I hold to their owners right to love them, appreciate them, do what they want with them, and call them American Warmbloods if they wish.

But then, I'm not a breed specific type of girl. I've had equal amounts of success/satisfaction with Tbs, Morgans, Arabs, NSH's, AQHA's, Hanovarians, Dutch horses, Traks, and Anglo-Traks. Breed didn't matter, its ability to do the job I wanted it to did.

I hold no animosity towards people who ride/enjoy different horses than I do any more than I hold animosity towards someone who enjoys a different hairstyle. There must be some sort of market for these horses if people are breeding them, and I sincerely doubt it is the same market as the European Warmblood market.

IMHO, it makes an unpleasant schism to have this type of mean-spirited and insult filled topic. I would be hard pressed to buy a horse from anyone who had negative things to say about any other breeders. Let your product stand on its own merits, and if it's good enough, it will achieve success. If not, then it isn't worth continuing as a commerical operation.

Jasmine

Nov. 11, 2003, 09:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LAZ:
I think of draft/tb crosses as draft/tb crosses, but I hold to their owners right to love them, appreciate them, do what they want with them, and call them American Warmbloods if they wish.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The AWR might disagree with you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have no problem with breeding these horses. I don't have to ride them if I choose not to. If someone else wants to, fine. My horses do stand on their own merits. Those that attach the labels "warmblood" and "sporthorse" to horses that are not Warmbloods or Sporthorses are what I have a problem with. (And yes, there are Sporthorse registries.)

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 09:51 AM

Everythingbutwings--

Would you like to see photos of our F1 and F2 offspring? I think you will be able to see that they are most definitely not bred "willy nilly".

As for standards, you will find that information underneath "Inspection Process". 4 separate books ARE kept (one a non-breeding book) with 2 auxillary books
for horses that are breeding approved/pre-approved that do not carry appropriate amounts of ASB blood.

Just as the Dutch Warmblood was formed off of a foundation of Groningen/Gelderlander horses and infused with Thoroughbred/ other Euro WB's blood, so we are using the American Saddlebred as our foundation and infusing it with Euro WB blood.

I will be more than happy to answer any questions anyone has.

Breyer

Nov. 11, 2003, 10:01 AM

Jasmine
I would think, any knowledgeable buyer would investigate any such registry a potential new horse might be associated with. If a buyer purchases with ignorance to true breed or registration, I feel they deserve to "get what they pay for".

As for "American Bred" horses I am assuming you are meaning European Warmblood "American Bred", not specific "American breeds" delevoped within America.

What are these "load of warmblood/sporthorse registries" you are speaking of? I would like to learn about all of them and enlighten myself as to the differences between them (or are you saying they are all the same?). Perhaps there are differences that have not been spelt out here on this board, and because of that people can lump all of the "American Warmblood" registries into one group- as one could also do with any of the numerous "European Warmblood" breeds out there.

Just to clarify then Jasmine- in your eyes, the only horses worthy of bearing the term "Warmblood" or "sporthorse" are pure European Warmbloods- whether ones bred abroad or here on US soil.

Merlin

Nov. 11, 2003, 10:09 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
Everythingbutwings--

Would you like to see photos of our F1 and F2 offspring? .<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seraph, are you involved in the registry? I would love to see some of the foals that you have produced yourself.

Jasmine

Nov. 11, 2003, 10:11 AM

Warmbloods should be of European decent, yes. The European registries are the ones who have developed the Warmblood breed. That is the point I am trying to make. There are a lot of breeders that make a TB/Draft cross and call it an American Warmblood. This damages the reputation of the AWR. AWR is breeding true warmbloods, the AWS is close, but they accept more breeds into their books than the AWR does. I do not believe that any cross between a coldblood and a hotblood is a warmblood.

Just to a search for the thread on PMU horses being called Canadian Sporthorses and see what you get. I'm not alone on this one, believe it or not.

I have absolutly no problems with these horses. None. I wish them all the best. I hope they do produce an olympic horse. They are not Warmbloods. If you like them, buy one. I'm not breed blind, I just don't like registries that ride the coattails of other's work.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

HFSH

Nov. 11, 2003, 10:16 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Breyer:
Jasmine
I would think, any knowledgeable buyer would investigate any such registry a potential new horse might be associated with. If a buyer purchases with ignorance to true breed or registration, I feel they deserve to "get what they pay for".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's a shame, becuase, as a former stallion owner, I can tell you that 90% of the people I dealt with inquiring about my stallion had NO clue about registration options.

Sure, people who have bred 1-2 mares and gone through the registration & inspection process have a good idea, but new breeders are often times totally clueless.

I sold 2 fillies this year to a good friend to start up her breeding program. She has NO idea how the registration, inspection, and approval process works.

I would not want to be associated with anyone who says 'you were ignorant, so you get what you deserve.' Just not good business down the long road, in my opinion.

Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.

HFSH

Nov. 11, 2003, 10:21 AM

whoops hit the post button too fast.

As far as people calling all these funny crosses 'warmbloods' - this debate has been done over and over again.

A draft horse is bred to pull the heavy carts or plow. No suspension in movement, to reach, just pure power to throw into the work collar. Sport horses are about as far from that as you can get.

I think it is horribly misleading of people to take a draft and cross it with whatever and call it a warmblood. Terribly misleading, as that is about as far from being a warmblood as a camel. My $.02.

Warmbloods are NOT Hot + Cold = Warm!

Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 10:31 AM

There is not any draft in TASHR's breeding program.

Merlin--

Sure you can see the offspring. Just look at the stallion's homepages and you will see some of them there. Some of the stallions have not yet produced registerable offspring. They are in the registry because they were invited to participate.

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 11:37 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Would you like to see photos of our F1 and F2 offspring? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SERAPH, I would love to see pictures of any horse you have bred. Goodness knows, I love all horses and have plastered my two thoroughbreds on this board quite liberally for comment and insight.

I have posted candid, action and posed shots as well as photos taken (albeit by amateur photographers) of my filly at Warrenton, Deep Run and the Middleburg Classic.

I have posted photos that are of my horses because I love them and am incredibly proud of them. I have never claimed that either of them were breeding material or the foundation of a "new" breed or type, either.

I happen to know without wasting my time and that of the inspectors that neither of my two would be accepted into any of the registries that are open to TBs as breeding stock as well as the reasons why. My filly is too small and too light in the hindquarters. My gelding has an overbite and paddles with his front. I had him gelded because he was not of breeding quality. I am realistic in my horses abilities and in their qualities as well as conformation flaws.

I hate to see people deliberately breeding less than superior animals.

Again, I would love to see photos of horses that you have bred, especially ones that have made it into a secondary book of a recognized breed registry.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 11, 2003, 12:15 PM

Not exactly what I would look for in a stallion if I wanted to breed my mare for a "sport horse" foal:

Comments/Accomplishments: [Name of horse] is only age 5 in 2003 and has registered 1/2-Arabian, NSH, Pinto and Saddlebred get. So far the 1/2-Arabians are cleaning up in the Halter show rings and in 2003 a yearling 1/2Arabain & 1/2-Saddlebred filly went Top-10 in Sweepstakes Halter at the US Nationals show in October.

What did the stallion himself accomplish? Nothing in that description tells of any athletic ability.

Yep, he's registered with everything that will take him. Unfortunately, that only proves the check cleared.

He's produced halter horses? Until there is an Olympic "Halter Horse" event, that doesn't mean anything to me.

Any registry will have to prove itself through the test of time and competitions. Good luck to them.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Edited to add: Good heavens. On second look I see he has two-year-olds on the ground. That means they bred him as a two-year-old. Hmmmmmm. How do you know anything about athletic ability in a two-year-old, Thoroughbreds being the (IMHO poor) exception?

[This message was edited by hitchinmygetalong on Nov. 11, 2003 at 05:05 PM.]

fleur

Nov. 11, 2003, 12:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by joliemom:
One question I have about the TASHR, there is a list of TASHR Book II Approved Stallions with a number of Dutch, Oldenberg, etc. listed along with the owner's website. On visiting the website, there is no mention of the stallion's approval by TASHR. Is this normal practice?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i was wondering the same thing. did tashr just pick and choose warmblood stallions? gosh this is sounding like a sim game or something http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Jasmine

Nov. 11, 2003, 12:30 PM

Is TASHR a member of WBFSH? Or are they pursuing membership?

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

Delyth

Nov. 11, 2003, 12:44 PM

I believe the WBFSH requires a certain set of breeding guidelines and inspections - choosing your stallion roster by mail-in photos wouldn't cut it, me thinks.

Jasmine

Nov. 11, 2003, 12:47 PM

Delyth, that's kind of what I thought. Otherwise the AWS would be a full member, not just an associate. I really need an angellic innocence smiley. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

showjumpers66

Nov. 11, 2003, 01:16 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LAZ:
Boy, you guys are pretty harsh.

I'm not planning on breeding but read these forums for information in case I ever do some day.

What I get out of threads like this is nothing useful and a bunch of hatefulness.

Just out of curiosity, are you challenged in any way by this registry? Damaged? If not, why are you so mean about it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I am not challenged or damaged, but the horse world is. Why intentionally breed horses for a certain purpose that does not have good odds of producing for that purpose???

I, too, have seen ASB that look warmblood and have good movement, but these are flukes. ASB are not bred to be jumpers, eventers, or dressage horses. They have their own purpose. Why destroy their breed by trying to make them into something that they are not?

If you take a warmblood looking ASB, odds are that he will not reproduce himself but will produce the qualities that have been demonstrated generation after generation. So, say you breed your sporthorse mare to an ASB and get a foal that looks like an ASB and who does not have the necessary conformation or movement to be a sporthorse. Now what are you going to do with the foal? Keep it as a pasture ornament? Sell it for $500 in the paper or at local auction? Does the horse world not have enough of these?

To breed sporthorses successfully, both the mare and stallion need to have the correct conformation, movement, and athletic ability in addition to a pedigree full of horses with these qualities. JMHO

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

LEP Enterprises, LLC

Nov. 11, 2003, 01:26 PM

I'm ok with people calling horses "warmbloods" and I do not necessarily associate the term with european bred horses.

What I do associate with european bred horses are the actual breed titles "holsteiners," "oldenbergs," "dutch warmblood" etc.

I hope that when people call something and "American Warmblood" they mean a horse that is registered, inspected and accepted by a warmblood registry -- either AWR or AWS.

But I don't get fired up about people calling whatever they want a "warmblood" -- when its a draft cross. It probably isn't "good enough" (i.e. does not fit the sporthorse ideal that AWR is striving for) to get approved by these registries -- but I think it does fit the general understanding of a warmblood. (hot + cold = warm)

/shrug

________________________
*London*Hannah*Kirsche*
*Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!*

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 01:28 PM

Since TASHR already has foals, yearlings and two year olds on the ground, when can we expect to see them at least appearing at Upperville, Devon, Warrenton or Middleburg Classic in Non-TB Hunter Breeding?

When will we be able to see how they stack up (as babies since their sires/dams aren't competing) at Dressage at Devon or many of the other commonly recognized sport horse competitions?

Obviously, the offspring of TASHR foundation horses themselves won't be old enough, trained enough or experienced enough to compete in Eventing, show jumping or dressage at a level to base future breeding qualifications on for quite some time.

What are the TASHR foundation horses' performance and in hand qualifications? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

showjumpers66

Nov. 11, 2003, 01:29 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by LAZ:
IMHO, it makes an unpleasant schism to have this type of mean-spirited and insult filled topic. I would be hard pressed to buy a horse from anyone who had negative things to say about any other breeders. Let your product stand on its own merits, and if it's good enough, it will achieve success. If not, then it isn't worth continuing as a commerical operation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My point is why breed horses that will not produce quality sporthorses? It does not have anything to do with competition among breeders at all. It has everything to do with producing horses that will not have a future. What happens to these horses? Have you been to a By Pound Auction? We have enough horses in need of a job without intentionally creating horses that have a good chance of having no future in sport.

On the other hand, I have no issue whatsoever if someone is breeding for themselves with the intent of keeping the product. But, if breeding for resell purposes why not tilt the odds in your favor by doing it right??

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

Breyer

Nov. 11, 2003, 01:48 PM

Fleur, have you e-mailed this registry yet with your questions? How did they respond? Would love to see what you or the others have found out. I think the best way to clear things up would be to go straight to the source. All this talk without firm facts as to what they actually are is a bunch of hot air. I don't own a Saddlebred and have no need to inquire, but it seems you have questions that you would like answered- yes/no?. Do you have a horse you are thinking of registering with this registry? If not, I am confused as to why you need to find out about them. Just trying to figure out what you ARE trying to find out/discuss about them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 02:09 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Do you have a horse you are thinking of registering with this registry? If not, I am confused as to why you need to find out about them. Just trying to figure out what you ARE trying to find out/discuss about them <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, quite a few topics recently, started or re-directed, have rather pointedly been shoving the TASHR and Sport Horse ASB down our throats.

No, that is a bit harsh, but the strident insistence by the few, new supporters of the ASB and TASHR has been quite overdone and the many, quite experienced and knowledgeable members of the COTH forums have asked nicely and repeatedly for answers to just how this "new" breed expects to compete other than via vehement prosthelytizing on free internet forums.

COTH has a certian cachet, an easily recognized level of competence and acknowledged achievement which tends to lend itself (as the recorder of sport horse competition of ALL types) by general assent to these forums.

COTH tries to disassociate itself from that misguided assumption in the intitial registration process whereby members sign up and state that they understand the rules and restrictions of forum membership.

Still, (as in the recent moderator post of "thinly disguised advertising") there is the assumption on the part of many that talking up their horse/association/breed/discipline or GRIPE will carry weight that would otherwise go unnoticed.

Think of it as "I heard it on COTH, therefore it must be true." Or at least important or verifiable. Well, there are a bunch of members here who have been and will continue to ask simply for the Sport ASB and TASHR proponents to put up or shut up.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

MdLib

Nov. 11, 2003, 02:12 PM

Breyer, as a 'consumer' of sport horses, I appreciate fleur bringing this registry to light. As a consumer, I want to see a registry that selects foundation sires by their superior performance. Many of the ASB and AHSA here have little record of performance, if at all. Some have never seen a showring. So, when I hear a horse is registered here, I will think, that's nice, so what. It's just another registry.

Plus all the other points that have been made throughout the thread, so I will not repeat.

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 11, 2003, 02:25 PM

Well, I don't have anything to do with this registry, but I do have an opinion on the subject of Saddlebreds and Dressage. Back in the middle 70's when VERY few people knew what the word Dressage meant, there was a lady that was representing what was the VERY small Dressage world in our area, going around to local Hunter shows and putting on Dressage demonstrations at the lunch break (How is that for a "run on sentence" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif). She rode a lovely Saddlebred mare named "Dress Boots", and did 2nd level tests. Her demonstrations on that mare really had an influence on the Dressage in this area. Very few people had ever seen a Warmblood, and the ones that were here (and bred in Europe http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif) were very heavy types. Dress Boots was light, elastic, sensitive, and had incredible suspension and rhythm. Much like the more modern Warmblood of today http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I don't know how many Saddlebred breeders actually were trying to breed for Dressage then, but I do know there were some. So maybe we could ask who copied who?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 02:56 PM

Hello Fairview--Love the name of your facility! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I know you recently hosted an AWS inspection at your facility. Two of our TASHR registered horses were recently there and I know one of our foundation sires scored a 73.25 (came in fourth overall) and his colt scored a 76.7 (2 months old)--and came in second to a 2 year old warmblood. You may know more about the details.

You're an outside set of eyes; what was your opinion on these TASHR horses?

Delyth

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:06 PM

MdLib

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:06 PM

Seraph, which foundation sire? an ASB? And how many stallions were inspected?

Same questions to the group the 2 month old was in?

Thanks. These are important questions to lend credibility to your registration.

Just saw Delyth's post - This "Registry" was created last spring, and already claims to have produced colts? The website suspiciously does not give a history. Aaagh!

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:14 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Two of our TASHR registered horses were recently there and I know one of our foundation sires scored a 73.25 (came in fourth overall) and his colt scored a 76.7 (2 months old)--and came in second to a 2 year old warmblood <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Were these horses (albeit now "registered w/TASHR) presented as belonging to other registries at this inspection?

Even more important to this thread, were either of the mentioned horses presented ASB or part ASB as is the stated intent of the TASHR "breed"?

Seems to me to be that someone is trying to claim credit where it is NOT due.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:19 PM

Obviously this registry has created some disturbance....

I have a couple "?"'s/statements whatever have you...

Wasn't the saddlebred actually indeed used for jumping/equitation/dressage, english disciplines in general? I just bought a new computer and unfortunately have not transfered files but on my old one I had several links to saddlebred "historical" sites that made such claims. I have not heard/seen this only on the internet but have heard it from other breeders/riders, equestrians etc.

As I don't believe they should be considered a "breed" of their own and as I am not sure if they should even have a divided "special" registry, I DO believe in the crosses.

This is how we devlope and improve our performance horses. It's also part of the "american" way to change variables in hopes of improvements. yes unfortunately it's not as easy as building new machines or building new types of whatever because the "throw aways" are our foals...But the ASB Sporthorse has proven worthy again shown by the Kalamino stud and the art deco X ASB. (There others too I believe it's just skipping my memory) I don't believe that these guys are a "fluke" just a perfection amongst the breeding.

I think the breeding of this cross should be done delicately and not hazard and carlessly. But I do like and support the cross.

The TB/Draft cross was new to everyone and many were against it but look at them now. Eventers now seek out the 3/4th TB X draft. or arab or WB. They still have the stamina and speed of the TB, a little cooler in the head and stronger and they have more hardiness to them, perfect for eventers. It just took time to find the right amount of mixture in the blood of both breeds...Same as the ASB cross...The kalamino and art deco stud have found a good mixture and now others need to read/feed off this for their own purposes.

I have nothing to say about the registry itself other than perhaps THEIR stallions should have been " proven" before the registry was established, perhaps they would have more solid competent support...

And I just remember the art deco X ASB: RHOQUEST!

LOL. I knew the old noggin would kick in sometime

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:26 PM

Delyth--

You're incorrect about your information. TASHR went ONLINE this past spring. Its been in effect for about 2 years now. That's why we are just now getting stock on the ground and out in the public's eye.

Moonkitty--

If you had already checked out the TASHR site and checked out the News and Updates page, you would have already seen that these TASHR horses were inspected by AWS and the colt in question that placed 2nd. It would help if you actually LOOKED at TASHR's site before making judgement calls. But you can always confirm this info.and resulting scores with the AWS.

MdLib

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:31 PM

Uh, Seraph, I did look, and saw the colt. But there was no information about how many were being evaluated. THAT is why I asked, because that information is absent from your site.

Can you answer my questions about the colt and stallion without an attitude?

I think a 'history' section would be helpful on your site, as it is now, it begs more questions than it answers. I, for one, am confused about the history of this registry.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:36 PM

Everythingbutwings--

The stallion is an Approved TASHR stallion.I believe the colt was registered both AWS and TASHR.

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:44 PM

http://www.americanasporthorse.com/News&updates.html

It says here that MAXAMILLION ( the founding sire for the registry) went to DAD this year. One of the colt's out of a grey trakhener mare also went to his first AWS inspection @ 2 months old. MAXAMILLION is ASB/Dutch WB.

Millionheir (the colt) is 1/4th ASB 3/4 WB (Trakhener and Dutch WB)

It list both of their scores and the places the "MAX" scored.

I believe both are registered by TASHR and AWS.

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:44 PM

SERAPH - is either the "approved" foundation stallion or the inspected foal an ASB or ASB cross?

Simply trying to clarify what you intend with this new "breed" if the horses you base your status on are not ASB themselves, sired by or out of an ASB registered horse.

What are you trying to do with this registry other than give status to non-type Saddlebreds (a fabulous breed, by the way) or otherwise non-paperable within own registried warmbloods?

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:49 PM

Moonkitty--

I'm sorry; didn't mean to come off with an attitude. It just didn't seem as if you had read the text on TASHR's site by what you had posted. To answer your question, as I recall from the owner's info., there were 18 horses inspected.

If you're truly interested in TASHR's history, please feel free to email the registry.

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:53 PM

ETBW- Max and the Colt millionheir are both part ASB. And both registered with the AWS.

*SERAPH*

Not intending and attitude at all. I am curious where you stand in the registry. perhaps you have stallions listed with them or you are a co-founder?

All I have seen or talked to is the owner of RHOQUEST who was listed with them, no longer, Audrey (have not talked to her personally, just friends of hers and I know of the stallions. Jenifer? I believe is her name, the co-founder and Tawna...the Founder/originator.

My understanding also is that the process has been under-gone for maybe 2 years but was just finalized and got the "approval" to go ahead this spring when the website was released. This was also stated on this board and the USdressage board...as well as others.

Just curious. In all seriousness no attitude intended! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:54 PM

Maxamillion is one of MANY foundation sires of TASHR; but we do appreciate your support, Asplashofchampagne. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:55 PM

Sorry ETBW- They are registered with both AWS and TASHR, I believe they were registered, well MAX was with AWS first...I believe tawna is a AWS rep etc. That's what I gather from her website.

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:57 PM

Thank you, Asplash, that was more pertinent information than has been presented at all towards giving any sense of credibility to the TASHR proponents. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:59 PM

Sorry SERAPH..Didn't mean to disclude the other stallions. I guess MAX is the only one I am really familiar with as he was Tawna's "inspiration" for the registry I believe. I am also familiar with Kalamino and RhoQUEST, not as familiar with the purebreds except for some of Audrey's.

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

Erin

Nov. 11, 2003, 03:59 PM

Seraph, since you have been talking up TASHR in many, many posts recently, I think it is only fair that you disclose what your association is with the registry.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 04:20 PM

Erin--

You know who I am. I'll leave it to you to inform everyone else, or they can contact me personally.

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 04:34 PM

Thanks to Asplash, there is a bit of credibility involved now on the side of arguing for TASHR as a reputable organization.

I have TB's. I don't intend to breed the ones I that I now own and am not in the slightest bit interested in getting them included into a recognized book or a "new" registry.

To repeat, I hate seeing people breed less than exceptional animals.

Seraph, I am looking forward to seeing your pics, I have a bunch of Wings and Maddie pics from last weekend to share. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 04:37 PM

No Offense and no attitude intended SERAPH, but why is your identity a secret and why is it erin's job to "unclothe" you for us?

I know you can't be the most HATED person on this board so come on fess up http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Who knows you might be a future buisness associate! But I will never know till I know your name http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ETBW- Thanks. I tried. As I don't consider myself a rep for this registry a supporter follower whatever, I do believe that everyone and everything has fair rights and only the educated comments make the cake so I attempted that.

I do love the ASB and the crosses and you can't support or even acknowledge something you can't understand! And I believe you should "bash" ( not saying YOU were) something when you don't know all aspects of it...or so I morally believe.

BTW- Madi looks great! I have a madi too, TB also http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Mines a little younger than yours. How big is your girl now? she looked HUGE in the pics of Wing's BDAY.

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 04:39 PM

I didn't catch the typo... it should read "SHOULDN'T" my apologies.

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

lindac

Nov. 11, 2003, 04:48 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I, too, have seen ASB that look warmblood and have good movement, but these are flukes. ASB are not bred to be jumpers, eventers, or dressage horses. They have their own purpose. Why destroy their breed by trying to make them into something that they are not?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry that some of you close minded Warmblood people feel that ASB's have been "shoved down your throats". But, ASB Sporthorses are not "flukes". Unless you have seen many ASB Sporthorses, (NOT the Saddleseat showring types) then please don't make comments that are derogetory to this breed.
Actually, the Showring type of ASB is the "fluke" and only occurs in about 10% of all ASB's foals born. The reason you haven't seen the more common Sporthorse type of ASB is because in the past, they had more of a chance of getting a driving job with the Amish or ending up in a dog food can than being sought after as a wonderful Dressage or Sporting mount. Primarily because the ASB breeders DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE and how to market it properly and because the traditional Sporthorse people refuse to even consider the ASB because of preconcieved predjudices from looking at the Saddle Seat type and assuming that the Sporthorse type is of no use. YOU CAN NOT BE MORE WRONG ABOUT THIS. There I said it, and as someone else said earlier, that may be a bit harsh but I feel as strongly about the ASB horse as you all do about your Warmbloods.

The tides are changing. More and more people are discovering what a great breed the ASB is for a Sporthorse. But,the proof is in the pudding. I think the TASHR registry will succeed.We shall see in the next few years how they stack up against the competition. As far as I'm concerned the addition of ASB blood
can only HELP the Warmblood.

I myself am sticking to my purebred ASB as he has great things coming up. He is 5 1/2 and has his counter canter,trot and canter half passes, and mediums down pat and has just learned his changes. His FEI level trainer (who only owns Warmbloods,so far) couldn't be more pleased with him. He is intelligent,strong,willing, GORGEOUS,and has beautiful movement. And guess what? He is not a fluke!

I am off my soapbox now and feel better. I am tired of the ASB bashing that goes on on these boards and feel I must stand up for the breed I love so much. I am sure you Warmblood people would be all over somebody that made general deragatory comments about YOUR breed. I have met many (but not a LOT) of Warmbloods over the past several years, but I am not going to make a blanket statement and assume that ALL Warmbloods are like the ones that I have met!

Linda

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 04:52 PM

A simple phrase: Go Linda....

I do agree that if the tables were turned and it was the WB's being bashed then we'd have a downright nasty massacre on this board.

What it boils down to is we ALL need to get over ourselves and just educate ourselves. Things change over the years...some of us just need to UPDATE our info http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 04:52 PM

Maddie was pumped up being, well, MADDIE!

She did well for her second time out with a barn mate (all her previous outings had been alone where she thought the "A" show was put on just for her amusement).

When my son rode off with the rest of the group, Maddie got quite pumped and did a lot of hollering for her brother, mostly out of sheer indignation!

One of my first horses was an ASB cross and, until Wings, I haven't been on such a comfy ride since. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:01 PM

Linda, do you see a lot of sport horse, hunter/dressage/eventers going to the ASB forums and spouting off about the european warmblood's superiority?

Why come to a group of truly experienced and dedicated sport horse people and throw a hissy fit over your chosen breed being looked down on?

SoEasy

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:01 PM

No one is ASB bashing here - people are asking why a new registry, and about the new registry, and how the people pushing the new registry are related to the new registry.

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:04 PM

It takes YEARS of training beyond just the breeding and raising of a great hunter/dressage horse/eventer of the top level to be accepted as legitimate breeding material, especially one that can command respect and whose offspring can command a top dollar on the market.

It takes many years for a pedigree line to prove itself that it can be considered a true SPORT HORSE line.

Give it up that insisting that this registry is legitimate until it is proven through competition of it's foundation sires (and Dams - I haven't hear squat about them yet) and the performance of the offspring. That is years down the road and the squawking of the few proponents who are so insistent here is denigrating to those who have the best intentions regarding the "new" registry.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:07 PM

No one from TASHR started this thread. We are not pushing the registry. We were responding to questions asked about the registry. We obviously have nothing against warmbloods OR saddlebreds, as that is a large part of our breeding program.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:11 PM

ETBW--

You are correct--but one has to start somewhere! After all, where would the Dutch Warmblood be if they didn't cross the Gelderlander to outside blood (and persist in it) over a period of years to create the Dutch Warmblood?

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:15 PM

No SERAPH..none of them members of the TASHR started this thread, but this thread and many other WERE started because there were a lot of unanswered questions and a lot of confusion.

I have to say that you have handled the questions and given somewhat more of an educated answer then most but some of us are still hanging. I do believe that a lot of the questions ARE sincere and people just want to understand.

ETBW- I am going to go on this with you snd bring up another subject related to the TASHR...

What happened to the importance of the DAM? I mean didn't I read here when I was young and just learning that the mare was a larger part of the equation the the sire?

TASHR seems to only pride themselves on their sires...

Also... No offense I don't want to hear about the WB dams as we know many are proven, I want to hear about the ASB dams.

A good friend of mine and an amazing breeder has an older foundation ASB mare that she uses in breeding to her Oldenburg stud and this mare throws AMAZING babies...

That is an example of the ASB dam..She is no longer in breeding service but her 2 foals I believe are now a year and two and are begining careers in the Sporthorse world.

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

ASB Stars

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:16 PM

Well now !!

For the record, I am not a member of TASHR, although I have watched their progress with great interest, and I am quite impressed with their organizational skills.

I have American Saddlebred dressage horses. I have owned, ridden, or trained, at one time or another, darn near everything else with a brand on its butt, as well as Quarterhorses, Arabians, and a Lipizzaner. I am sure I am leaving some out, but here is my point; I own American Saddlebreds and prefer them in dressage. I love watching ANY truly talented AND happy horse. I do not consider myself a breeder, however, there are three stallions presently living on my farm. I have one broodmare in foal for next year.

For the past several years, I have competed my ASBs in the breed show at Dressage at Devon. As you are all aware, this is THE show. The judging is tougher, the competition keener, and if you show up with junk, well, it isn't pretty.

This year, we opened the ASB IBC up to include Tawna King's stallion, Maxamillion. This is a sweet natured, well mannered horse. We had four entries in the class- there were two others entered who were scratched. My two year old colt, Borealis, and his three year old half brother, Mon Capitan, that I had sold as a yearling (he is out of my mare) scored a 78% and a 75% respectively. Tawna's stallion, and my gelding, Willoughby Wallaby Woo each scored a 70.3%, and my gelding was pinned above her stud.

Hilda Gurney judged the class, and was incredibly kind when I spoke to her after the class, as she is always, with her comments and help. As you are all aware, Ms. Gurney is a critical, but fair, judge.

I have absolutley no issue with any comments about my breed that are well informed. I am more than well aware that most of the American Saddlebreds that you see are kind and generous, but not necessarily exhorbitantly talented, individuals. We are a small breed- fewer than 3000 horses are registered each year- and those with the size and athleticism that I need for my sport are probably winning as five gaited horses, and worth well into six figures. I just happen to have a fabulous mare- of the same breeding that produces the winning show horses- and her son is by a stallion from World Grand Champion producing lines.

I do not stand my horses at stud, and, in point of fact, I believe that there are enough horses in the world that need homes, without making a bunch more- of ANY breed. I therefore have no reason to belong to TASHR at this time.

Jennifer Wilder and Tawna King may or may not be successful in their venture- but they believe in what they are doing. That says alot to me in this day and age. I am not on the same page with them- but I respect anyone with the guts to give it a go.

And, for those of you that want to point fingers- c'mon up here to DAD next September with whatever it is you are raising. There is talking the talk, and then there is walking the walk. I have a farm full of horses who can show you both, and each of you is welcome to visit. They aren't for sale- they are for opening your mind- something we all can afford to do.

Julie www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com (http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com)

Heidi

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:21 PM

Wingsy, I love you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

pintofoal

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:24 PM

I (personally--for my own breeding program) could really care less about ASB or crosses or this registry they are not what I do or bred for and I have no association what so ever. With that said, I will put in my two cents:

I have seen and known some if not MANY ASB or ASB crosses that have done really well if not excellent in FEI disciplines. Many of these were NEVER acknowledged as such. Two FEI dressage riders that I know (and who shall remained unnamed) rode pure ASB and one ASBxTB into the FEI levels and did really well on the horses when folks asked what the horse was the trainer/riders would say a Warmblood but has no papers and folks believed it. I remember many years ago (over 17+) when I first was getting into pintos for my breeding program a pinto adorned the front page of the USDF magazine a black and white ASB (I can't remember his name either Top hat and tails or Formal attire (something to do with dress up clothes) who was an FEI champion. There has been many ASB who back in the good old days as Fairview points out did really well in multitude of English disciplines.

Maybe I am missing something here but I don't understand why so many are coming down so hard on this group or the ASB and using them is crosses that can be registered in their own unique group designed to purse FEI and sport disiplines. I have always admired ASB Some of the older type ASB's have many of the qualities that you look for in Warmbloods or Sporthorses. Again I have nothing to do with ASB or this group, though my stallions have bred a few ASB with very good results. I am an observer who is a bit confused on why there is so much contention with this cross and this new registry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:33 PM

Liz, my own objection is not at all with the cross or the intention, but, rather the insistence that it MUST be good and that the designated "foundation" sires are legitimate.

To plan a breeding program, much less a "breed" on such grounds is ludicrous.

Breed the best to the best, right? Okay, take an ASB stallion or mare who performs at the top levels and cross that horse with an Approved WB of another registry and, when that offspring excells, you have something.

I think that the TASHR has a few good horses already. Horses good within their own right and breed, but the majority offered and advertised are not what ought to be considered foundation stock of at all.

Give them 15 years of performance and inspections and competition across the board and see how it works out. No amount of insisting that they are great will make up for not starting out with fabulous stock.

Saddlebreds are a breed made up from the very horses they want to outcross with to make their "sport horse". It seems to me that bringing in the other breeds is what will make the ASB viable at all as a true all round sport horse breed.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

El Grande Stimpendo

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:41 PM

Why does anyone care if a horse is registered with any registry? If it jumps good buy it.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:44 PM

ETBW--

EVERY stallion on TASHR's site was invited to participate in TASHR's stated breeding program. Stallion owners who wished to play a part in creating America's first native-bred sporthorse breed were required to send in stallion information. ALL of the stallions listed are foundation sires within TASHR's breeding program.

You can rest assured that those stallion owners asked tough questions and obviously received an appropriate response as far as TASHR's goals were concerned.

Foundation sire status was by invitation ONLY.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:50 PM

Timothy Hay --

Wouldn't it be SO much easier!!!LOL!

Erin

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
Erin--

You know who I am. I'll leave it to you to inform everyone else, or they can contact me personally.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sigh.

Seraph, that was an invitation for you to do the right thing and acknowledge that you are not exactly an impartial party here. Actually, had I figured out who you were before today, I probably would have already had a little chat with you about using the BB for promotional purposes... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'm not going to "out" you completely and say exactly who you are, if for some reason you don't want that made public... but since you have mentioned TASHR all over the BB, I think it's only fair to make it clear that you are one of the people involved in running the registry.

Little Indian

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:51 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
Since TASHR already has foals, yearlings and two year olds on the ground, when can we expect to see them at least appearing at Upperville, Devon, Warrenton or Middleburg Classic in Non-TB Hunter Breeding?

When will we be able to see how they stack up (as babies since their sires/dams aren't competing) at Dressage at Devon or many of the other commonly recognized sport horse competitions?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

nobody ever said these horses were bred for hunters....it said olymic cabiler....hunters is not in that category and from the way it looks, it looks as if these are bred to be dressage horses (that is why i'm assuming there are the baroque horses which have so much impusion from behind could help with the lightness in the front of a saddlebred...) and didn't Maxamillion do Dressage at Devon this year and come back with some pretty great placings?? soemthing to think about http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Norsire

Nov. 11, 2003, 05:52 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>No Offense and no attitude intended SERAPH, but why is your identity a secret and why is it erin's job to "unclothe" you for us?

I know you can't be the most HATED person on this board so come on fess up Who knows you might be a future buisness associate! But I will never know till I know your name
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And who are you asplashofchampange03? I think, you just maybe Rhoquest's owner, since very few people know about him and you spell his name in all capitals, when speaking of him, as to announce him and then spell Kalomino in regular size type. I know you were always bothered by how people did not fully accept his dam who was the ASB. As, you already know, I feel you can not ride a piece of paper, but a quality horse will take you along way, no matter what the breeding is or the "piece of paper" has on it. A quality horse is a quality horse, no matter what the breeding is. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

There are no answers, only the search.
Home to the stallions Zillionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club
http://www.bridgetperry.com

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 06:05 PM

erin--

I have never hidden my identity. Just haven't announced it all over the place as I have my own horse business to protect from people who who would try and discredit me. TASHR is not-for-profit.

I guess it really all comes down to, I would really like to see America regain some of her equine market in the coming years. I have enough national pride, like the respective Europeans, to desire to create an equine that is based on/ is from an American breeding program and will represent us internationally. That will take time. But it must begin somewhere. They did it; so can we.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 06:23 PM

Now smilin' al, aren't we all "hidden" behind these monikers? My name has already been mentioned on this thread and my name is on TASHR's website. I haven't seen anyone else coming out and saying, "Hi, my name is so-and-so and I own such-in-such stallion/breeding facility/show barn et."

As for promoting this registry, I did not start this thread. I responded to questions being asked. BUT, as for promoting the breeding of ASBs and ASBs/WB crossing, I admit, I'm guilty. Because I believe in them. Is it wrong for people to mention AWS, ASR, ISR, Gov, (okay, for the last two in conjunction, MAYBE!) What about all the others mentioned everyday? I don't see it as "promotion" as I'm not selling anything. However, like all of these other registries, I am advocating the idea of a certain type of horse.

Galileo1998

Nov. 11, 2003, 06:26 PM

Hey if Aura Of Excellence ever produces a smokey black, or is bred to a grey mare and produces a baby that turns grey will whoever did his ad take away the claim that ALL his foals will be some shade of gold? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Seriously, if you want to start a new registry go right ahead, I'm happy for you that you have something you believe in so strongly.
BUT (there's always a but!!) please don't insult fellow COTH members by starting "innocent" threads about, for example, why the French decided to create the Selle Francais breed. I would have bet my broodmare (and I LOVE my broodmare) on where that thread was going the minute I saw you had posted it SERAPH, and I was right. That sort of thing turns me off - and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I guess what I'm trying to say is - I don't try to sell you on Dutch Warmbloods or Selle Francais, don't try to sell me on American Saddlebred crosses. IF they prove to be as successful as you hope, I will notice and I'm sure other breeders will too - Marketing might help but what really sells is proof. When the TASHR produces an Olympic level horse - we will notice http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Then you can say I told you so!!

[This message was edited by Galileo1998 on Nov. 11, 2003 at 10:43 PM.]

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 06:36 PM

Galileo1998--

The thread you are referring to did start off completely innocent. I was curious, as I had never seen anything stated as to why, that the French decided to create the Selle Francais when they already had established the French Anglo Arab. I wanted to know, which was never answered to my satisfaction, what they wanted to improve about the FAA.

I love the Selle Francais and the Dutch Warmblood. I also would love to bring in some pure Gelderlander blood to TASHR. I greatly admire the aforementioned breeding programs and REALLY desired to know the answer to my FAA/Selle Francais question.

But like an American, I couldn't resist when Medievalist said "Americans didn't know what they were missing"...

I suppose my response truly mean't "Oh yes, YES we do...and we're doing something about it."

MdLib

Nov. 11, 2003, 06:39 PM

I think that Seraph is the southeast regional director of TASHR. (I'd ask Seraph myself, but no contact info listed in her profile)

pintofoal

Nov. 11, 2003, 06:40 PM

OK duhhha (some times I'm a bit slow/dence), like I said I might NOT be getting something here...thank you Galileo1998 now I understand the gripe-- But lets not let one or two overly enthusiastic and shove it down our throats types ruin it for others. Someone not associated with the "shovers" did ask a question and now it is being addressed both by those who are dedicated and believe and those who are fanatics/shovers, but lets not hang em all http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Liz Hall silverwoodfarm.com (http://silverwoodfarm.com)
Pinto & Colored Warmbloods Stallions

Medievalist

Nov. 11, 2003, 06:50 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
But like an American, I couldn't resist when Medievalist said "Americans didn't know what they were missing"...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just piping in here to say that when I said that I was talking about the French Trotter....which, for the record, has nothing in common with the Standardbred (as implied on the thread) except for the fact that they are trotting breeds...I didn't get to say that before the thread was summarily locked. Saying that is like saying tb=qh because they both are known as canterers. Stand a trotter next to a standardbred, and you will see that they do not resemble one another at all, except for maybe that big ol' head. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

That statement I made had nothing to do with your registry, and I still fail to see in which way it relates.

But whatever. Back to our regularly scheduled programming http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

As an aside, Paula Briney in central IL is crossing her DWB(I think...his name is Regent) stud with some of her family's nice SB mares. She has gotten some very fancy dressage horses out of them. I saw them and was impressed. She is a very responsible breeder and only crossed her nice stud to nice mares.

wanderlust

Nov. 11, 2003, 06:58 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:

But like an American, I couldn't resist when Medievalist said "Americans didn't know what they were missing"...

I suppose my response truly mean't "Oh yes, YES we do...and we're doing something about it."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So that was what you really meant when you said (and then locked before anyone could respond):
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
this is why I don't really enjoy having these sorts of cpnversations on this board. Most people simply do not know what they are talking about. KWPN is over the Gelderlander, the Dutch Warmblood, and the Dutch Harness Horse registry.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I find this statement ironic coming from someone who has admittedly never owned a stallion before, and has probably never bred a mare before, either. Not to mention incredibly insulting to the many VERY experienced sporthorse breeders on here.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I haven't seen anyone else coming out and saying, "Hi, my name is so-and-so and I own such-in-such stallion/breeding facility/show barn et." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You haven't? Almost every stallion owner has a link to their farm at the bottom of their posts. We all know that pintofoal is Liz Hall, Norsire is Bridget, Tawna24 is Tawna King, GWRanch is Heike Albert, and I could go on and on.

I'm firmly in ETBW's camp. When you guys have thoughtfully bred something fantastic through several generations that is 1/2 saddlebred and olympic or WEG-bound, tell me all about your registry. But now, all you are doing is giving yourself bad press.

~formerly Master Tally~

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:04 PM

Medievalist--

I was never comparing the French Trotter, who is built like a larger-boned, upright, longer distance sort of Thoroughbred to the Standardbred, which is generally built like a stouter, downhill power-sprinting sort of Thoroughbred. I really don't know nor did I then)where you were going with that. I believe it's possible I did not articulate very well there. However, the Saddlebred is derived from pretty much the same blood that began the Standardbred. The French Trotter also has Standardbred blood in its veins. I also believe that it originated from the same or same bloodlines of the Standardbred in America. I believe that the French imported horses from the Thoroughbred Messenger, in America, right? Maybe a son of his? 'Course, I could be wrong. I will have to go back and check.

Galileo1998

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:06 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
Galileo1998--

The thread you are referring to did start off completely innocent. I was curious, as I had never seen anything stated as to why, that the French decided to create the Selle Francais when they already had established the French Anglo Arab. I wanted to know, which was never answered to my satisfaction, what they wanted to improve about the FAA.

I love the Selle Francais and the Dutch Warmblood. I also would love to bring in some pure Gelderlander blood to TASHR. I greatly admire the aforementioned breeding programs and REALLY desired to know the answer to my FAA/Selle Francais question.

But like an American, I couldn't resist when Medievalist said "Americans didn't know what they were missing"...

I suppose my response truly mean't "Oh yes, YES we do...and we're doing something about it."<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess I just can't see how you were innocent and also curious when in that same thread you mentioned how much studying you had done of the French breeding program and how much you had learned. Didn't any of that studying and learning answer you question?

And I'm pretty sure that Medievalist said that American's don't know what they are missing in respent to French Trotters. I don't follow the logic of "Oh yes, YES we do and we're doing something about it". Does the TASHR have French Trotting blood in it's registry? I thought it was for American Saddlebred crosses as they are the "real American Warmblood". what have I missed?

You also mentioned that Foundation sire status was by invitation only. I would like to know what criteria you used to decide which stallions to invite?

I'm not trying to pick on you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but I honestly do feel you have been, not so innocently, trying to shove this down the throats of COTH members and therefore should be able to answer some of the more "difficult" questions. Thanks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:12 PM

wanderlust--

I haven't hidden things. It's all there and mentioned on this thread. As well as on the TASHR website.

Now, who exactly are you? Are you a stallion owner? Do you have a breeding program in place? Run a boarding facility? Working your way towards some upper level of competitive riding? A judge????

If not....?

shiloh

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:17 PM

Pssstttt....just to interrupt briefly - what's a Kalamino? ASB?

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:21 PM

Galileo--

I'm sorry that you have a hard time believing me; while I knew a great deal of the FAA/Selle Francais history, I didn't know EXACTLY why they felt they needed to improve upon the FAA.

Why? You ask my interest in knowing the answer? Because, some of the older style ASB's resemble very much conformationally FAA'a and I wondered if there was something TASHR may have to improve about a certain part of their structure in the future. In other words, what had the French run into that may have caused them to re-evaluate their breeding direction?

That's why.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:26 PM

shiloh--

Kalomino is registered Dutch Harness Horse. He is ASB/DHH. I guess some of those "failed" high-stepping DHH's have benefitted TASHR. He is schooling Grand Prix. He has everything but his one tempies down. Gorgeous stallion!

[This message was edited by *SERAPH* on Nov. 12, 2003 at 07:42 AM.]

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:33 PM

French Trotter, to my knowledge and I may not have this right, is derived from a lot of the same blood as the Standardbred.

Saddlebred is definitely derived from same blood as the Standardbred. They all are closely related--note--did NOT say identical.

Saddlebred breeders have just gone off the deep end the last 40 years. Kind of like what happened with the fadishness of halter Arabs and how there were no REAL Arabs around until Arab sporthorse breeders took back what they could and started breeding a superior Arab again.

wanderlust

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:35 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
wanderlust--

Now, who exactly are you? Are you a stallion owner? Do you have a breeding program in place? Run a boarding facility? Working your way towards some upper level of competitive riding? A judge????

If not....?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, I don't think I (or anyone) need to be any of those things to ask direct, sensible questions about the goal of any new registry. Or to be insulted when you make statements such as the one previously quoted.

That said, I'm perfectly happy to provide you the above info. I have run a small boarding facility (and happened to know that there is more Calcium than phosphorus in alfalfa), worked and rode for an FEI dressage trainer who also ran a small operation breeding RPSI and KWPN horses, spent several years eventing while a working-student and assistant trainer for an upper-level eventer and A pony-clubber who has bred several nice Irish sporthorses, dabbled in the A-circuit hunters, and am again working and riding (and soon to be teaching) for an FEI dressage trainer who stands a Hanoverian stallion and breeds several mares each year, all while trying to bring along a fancy youngster who has potential for both FEI dressage and upper-level eventing (and the hunter trainers love her too... choices, choices http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif).

BTW, I'm leaving my corporate job (A Fortune 100 where I've had a short but successfull career as a Product Manager and Senior Business Analyst for the largest cooperative marketing program in the world) so that I can concentrate on riding as much and as well possible and bring along my youngster correctly.

Now am I qualified to ask questions? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

MdLib

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:39 PM

wanderlust - http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif rock on.

You handled that much better than I would have.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:39 PM

wanderlust--

You'll do; but ONLY because you are so good with calcium/phosphorus ratios which we both know I'm not the best at!

Ask away! LOL!

Medievalist

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:49 PM

The French Trotter has some of the same bloodlines, but the final product is very different. The main 5 foundation stallions for the trotter are ConquÃ©rant (1858), Lavater (1867), Normand (1869), Niger (1869) and PhaÃ«ton (1871)...95% of french trotters descend from these 5 stallions.

All rom http://xdll.free.fr/ppdoc/chvx/raself003.htm and poorly translated by yours truly...about the trotter origins:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>
Dans un 1er temps, la jumenterie normande a Ã©tÃ© croisÃ©e avec des Norfolk (ancÃ¨tres du Hackney), des demi-sang anglais, des pur sang anglais, puis par des Hackneys.
Ensuite on a apportÃ© du sang d'Orlov et de trotteur amÃ©ricain pour amÃ©liorer encore l'aptitude au trot.

First off, Normandie mares were crossed with Norfolks(hackney ancestors), half-tb english horses, english tbs, then hackneys. After that, Orlov trotter blood and american trotter blood was brought in to improve the aptitude of the trot.

Le trotteur FranÃ§ais et toutes les autres races de trotteurs ont comme origine commune le sang Norfolk et le pur sang anglais Sampson. Par ailleurs, l'Ã©talon Pur sang Anglais Orville (1799) est l'un de ceux qui a le plus imprÃ©gnÃ© la race Trotteur FranÃ§ais.

The French trotter and all other trotter breed have Norfolk blood and the blood of the tb Sampson. in addition, the english tb stallion Orville (1799) is one of the most frequently seen in the french trotter bloodline.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I would have posted that on the other thread...but was closed before I got the chance. So as you can see, some bloodlines are shared, but they are not equivalent.

As to the question of the creation of the SF:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Le berceau de la race est indiscutablement la Normandie oÃ¹ l'on retrouve les Ã©levages les plus fournis. la Bretagne contribue aussi beaucoup Ã* l'essor de la race.
Dans les 20 ans qui ont suivi la deuxiÃ¨me guerre mondiale, on a cherchÃ© Ã* allÃ©ger les lourds demi sangs en les croisant Ã* des purs sangs anglais comme Fra Diavolo, Furioso, Rantzau, Orange peel (le grand pÃ¨re d'Ibrahim), Ultimate. Ces 5 Pur sangs sont considÃ©rÃ©s comme les pÃ¨res de la race.

The cradle of the race is in Normandy where one finds the best breeders. Bretagne has also contributed a lot to the rapid expansion of the breed. In the 20 years following WWII, the French worked on lightening the heavy half-tbs by crossing them with English tbs such as Fra Diavolo, Furioso, Rantzau, Orange peel (The grandsire of Ibrahim), and Ultimate. These 5 tbs are considered the founding sires of the SF.

Le Selle FranÃ§ais a Ã©tÃ© spÃ©cialement sÃ©lectionnÃ© pour le saut d'obstacles. On le retrouve dans les compÃ©titions de tous niveaux, c'est l'un des meilleures races de CSO du monde !

Son caractÃ¨re en gÃ©nÃ©ral docile et sa polyvalence en font un cheval d'Ã©cole particuliÃ¨rement aprÃ©ciÃ©.

Les chevaux ayant un trÃ¨s fort pourcentage de sang Pur Sang (les AQPS) excellent dans les courses d'obstacles.

The SF was especially selectionned for showjumping. One finds them in competitions of all levels because it is one of the best showjumping races in the world. His docile character and versitility as a horse to learn upon are particularly appreciated. SF with a high percentage of TB(known as AQPS-Autre que pur sang) excel in steeplechasing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the Anglo Arab is still very much present in France today. The french have in no way abandoned that cross. Many 3Day and upperlevel jumping horses are AA or AC(Anglo de complement)... both are crosses that have different percentages of arab. They look just like all the other horses...maybe a bit finer at times, but one really cant tell other than that the branded ones are branded with AA instead of SF. I wouldn't say that they look like SB because they usually have a much shorter back and a more tb neck tie-in, but I suppose it could happen.

About the AA:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Son aptitude au saut et au galop, comme son Ã©lÃ©gance et son endurance le prÃ©destinent tout particuliÃ¨rement au concours complet d'Ã©quitation.

The AA's aptitute jumping and galloping, as well as his elegance and endurance, makes it predestined for eventing.

En course, il se mesure parfois avec succÃ¨s aux autres races de chevaux (Pur-sang et selle FranÃ§ais de type AQPS), en particulier dans les courses d'obstacles. Certaines courses de galop lui sont rÃ©servÃ©es, surtout sur les hippodromes de Pompadour et de pau.

In racing the AA has a particular success in steeplechasing. Certain races are reserved only for AAs, especially at Pomapdour and at Pau(2 big racetracks).

Toutes ses qualitÃ©s (beautÃ©, taille, harmonie, endurance, adresse, vÃ©locitÃ©, aptitudes Ã* porter le cavalier), en font un merveilleux cheval de selle trÃ¨s complet. Il tirera son Ã©pingle du jeu en compÃ©tition dans des disciplines aussi variÃ©es que CSO, dressage, endurance.

All of the AA's qualities (beauty, size, harmony, endurance, presence, speed, ability to carry the rider) makes for a wonderful eventing mount. He is also very adept at other disciplines such as showjumping, dressage, and endurance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK you can all go back to fighting about SB Sporthorses now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I *think* I am actually getting somewhere on these applications...but then again I may be lying to myself.
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

*SERAPH*

Nov. 11, 2003, 07:56 PM

Medievalist--

Thank you very much! I will re-read through this and retire. I really do appreciate this information.

PaintBy#s

Nov. 11, 2003, 08:00 PM

Norsire- No, I am not Rho's owner. I am aquaintances with his owner Kim though, and that is why I know so much about him.

I am just a lurker on this board.

I like the asb/Wb sporthorses very much and have looked and searched about them, which is how I met Kim (rho') owner, and new about the registry and max and all.

I apologize about putting rho's name in caps, it was not intentional thats just habit of seeing it like that.

So many sayings about life! The most important? LIVE IT UP!

Celtic Witch

Nov. 11, 2003, 08:45 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
ETBW--

EVERY stallion on TASHR's site was invited to participate in TASHR's stated breeding program. Stallion owners who wished to play a part in creating America's first native-bred sporthorse breed were required to send in stallion information. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it would be correct to replace "first" with newest. If you wish to be taken seriously, you might want to make sure your facts are straight and take a class in PR. The attitude alone is enough to make me crawl back into my "Dutch" cave.

Maybe then I'll have some time to research the book and learn what the division are. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Susie

aurum

Nov. 11, 2003, 09:20 PM

Well I would love to own a nice ASB for myself but would only want a pure one, not a cross.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

shiloh

Nov. 11, 2003, 09:29 PM

Oh sorry - I thought Kalamino was a description, not a stallion... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Also, BTW - this kind of snitting and self-aggrandizing is exactly why I don't and won't buy/breed/patronize any of these "new" registries. It's like a souffle' and with not very good ingredients.

WhatzUp

Nov. 11, 2003, 11:03 PM

Susie (Celtic Witch),

Is there room in your cave for two ? (well - three - must bring the Siamese...)

Alternatively, we can all go to Lytham St.Annes for a nice stress-relieving gallop on the beach ?

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

showjumpers66

Nov. 12, 2003, 01:42 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lindac:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I, too, have seen ASB that look warmblood and have good movement, but these are flukes. ASB are not bred to be jumpers, eventers, or dressage horses. They have their own purpose. Why destroy their breed by trying to make them into something that they are not?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am sorry that some of you close minded Warmblood people feel that ASB's have been "shoved down your throats". But, ASB Sporthorses are not "flukes". Unless you have seen many ASB Sporthorses, (NOT the Saddleseat showring types) then please don't make comments that are derogetory to this breed.
Actually, the Showring type of ASB is the "fluke" and only occurs in about 10% of all ASB's foals born. The reason you haven't seen the more common Sporthorse type of ASB is because in the past, they had more of a chance of getting a driving job with the Amish or ending up in a dog food can than being sought after as a wonderful Dressage or Sporting mount. Primarily because the ASB breeders DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE and how to market it properly and because the traditional Sporthorse people refuse to even consider the ASB because of preconcieved predjudices from looking at the Saddle Seat type and assuming that the Sporthorse type is of no use. YOU CAN NOT BE MORE WRONG ABOUT THIS. Linda<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are totally missing my point. I am NOT bashing your breed and never said that it was being shoved down my throat. My point is that warmbloods have been bred for many, many, many generations for a specific purpose - to be sporthorses. And you say it right here - "ASB breeders DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY HAVE" - if they don't know what they have, then how can the breed for the qualities needed to produce good sporthorses CONSISTENTLY?

Almost any horse can be a 3 foot hunter or do low level dressage and many well trained horses can perform at upper levels, but what we want is horses that can perform at these levels easily due to the conformation, temperament, and movement.

A friend of mine rides at a local dressage barn on an appendix quarter horse mare and had been very frustrated by the mare's inability to progress past first level. Since she could not afford to buy a warmblood, she thought that she would breed her mare so that she would have an upper level horse. She presented the mare to ISR and the mare did not receive sufficient bonits to be accepted into the mare book. She spoke with a local stallion station (standing several top Dressage stallions), but decided that the $1800 stud fee plus insemination costs were too much to pay. She found a Percheron stallion that was being promoted as a warmblood sire and was being shown at training level for a mere $400 stud fee. She booked her mare and had a filly the next year. Four years later, she has a young mare that has such horrible conformation and movement that she is miserable to ride. She advertised her locally for a $1000 for 6 months and could not generate any interest. She ended up donating her to a local camp.

I am not bashing crosses and if done correctly they are a good thing, but it takes generations of careful breeding to create a new breed or line.

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

showjumpers66

Nov. 12, 2003, 01:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
shiloh--

Kalomino is registered Dutch Harness Horse. He is ASB/DHH. I guess some of those "failed" high-stepping DHH's have benefitted TASHR. He is schooling Grand Prix. He's for sale, has everything but his one tempies down. Gorgeous stallion!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

AHEM! I thought no advertising was allowed??!!

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

lindac

Nov. 12, 2003, 02:16 AM

I personally don't see how you can compare a downhill, usually short necked AQHA crossed on a chunky draft horse with an ASB/WB cross.Of course anyone would say what was she thinking!

ASB's and WB are very similar in conformation, movement, and temperment.There is an I-1 level warmblood mare at my barn that looks and moves like an ASB. My 3rd level ASB looks and moves more like a "traditional" Warmblood. They both are wonderful at Dressage.

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I am sorry that some of you close minded Warmblood people feel that ASB's have been "shoved down your throats". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I have thoroughbreds, and very few people including several thousand on these forums would consider be closeminded. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A few on these forums have been and are continuing to shove this particular idea and "new" registry down our throats. If they believe in it, fine, why is it so terribly imperative to get the rest of us to agree without the proof of performance that every other recognized breed has done?

I doubt seriously if many of us would turn down a top level horse simply because it was a part bred. We would ride it and compete it proudly and bask in the giddy happiness that such success would bring.

I mentioned hunter in hand classes because they are open (like DOD which I also mentioned) to horses of an age which this "new" registry has on the ground to show. No way are any offspring of the TASHR horses old enough or well schooled enough to compete Rolex, Waredaca, Radnor, etc.

Kalamino, it was posted earlier, has competed successfully at DOD. What about the rest of the "foundation" sires? Again, I ask, what about the dams?

Will the Olympic events that TASHR is aiming for be switched to reining and endurance? Not that I don't think ASB's would do well in either of those disciplines but ASB's crossed with Arabs and QH's would do better, especially if the proportion of ASB blood to the others was very small.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

Karosel

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:22 AM

[QUOTE]Originally posted by lindac:
ASB's and WB are very similar in conformation, movement, and temperment.

Based upon personal experience and the pics of the stallions of the TASHR website I disagree. I personally feel that a saddlebred is the easiest breed for a non horse person to identify- they all look the same. Which is good. They were bred for a certain type (a very flashy one at that), and they are a certain type. Which is easily recognizible. High headed and high kneed movement with a low back.

~Humble pie doesn't taste too good...

rebecca yount

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:25 AM

As the owner of a very successful Hanoverian mare, I have sometimes looked at these threads with interest. I just have a couple of questions and a comment:

1. Why won't you all post your real names?
2. Do you think there was this kind of arguing going on when other breeds were developed hundreds of years ago, over many generations?
3. To see results from Dressage at Devon, go to www.horsesdaily.com/news/scoresource/2003/dressage/03dev/breed/index.html (http://www.horsesdaily.com/news/scoresource/2003/dressage/03dev/breed/index.html)
There you will see the results for some of the horses discussed above--look under Saddlebred and Colored Sporthorses, I think. You can also look at scores for other breeds/same judges and be further educated.

www.rebeccayount.com (http://www.rebeccayount.com)

Norsire

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:27 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
shiloh--

Kalomino is registered Dutch Harness Horse. He is ASB/DHH. I guess some of those "failed" high-stepping DHH's have benefitted TASHR. He is schooling Grand Prix. He's for sale, has everything but his one tempies down. Gorgeous stallion!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

AHEM! I thought no advertising was allowed??!!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I second that one showjumper66! It isn't even "Thinly Disguised" at all!!!! Kalomino's owner must be the same owner as, the reg the debate is over!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

There are no answers, only the search.
Home to the stallions Zillionair, Issue of Gold, Gold Card, and Pure White Gold.
http://www.norsire.com
Realtor RE/MAX Renaissance, Million Dollar Club
http://www.bridgetperry.com

dassportpferd

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:36 AM

I would like to ditto what Rebecca Yount stated. BTW, Rebecca--one hell of an extended trot Bo Peep has! Saw you at Devon and she looked fantastic!

Of all the things I've lost, I would miss my horse the most.

ASB Stars

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:53 AM

Kalamino is owned by Lorinda Lende. To the best of my knowledge, Lorinda has not ocmmented on this thread.

"Jennifer Wilder and Tawna King may or may not be successful in their venture- but they believe in what they are doing." I have already informed everyone as to the identity of *SERAPH*, weren't you listening ??LOL

I do not believe in hiding behind these "monikers" either. I agree with everything that Linda C has stated; I know her horse, who BTW is by the TOP SIRE of American Saddlebred show horses in the country right now, and out of an amazing mare.

One of the issues that I, personally, as an owner of ASBs, have with TASHR goes to the thought that you cannot find what you need to excell right now, in a pure ASB. You can- but it takes searching- just as it does to find the very best quality in any breed.

Julie

rebecca yount

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:55 AM

Thank you. My daughter won Jr. Dressage Seat Equitation and Jr. Handler with her. She is a great horse in temperament as well as athletic ability--as well she should be since they have been bred for these qualities for hundreds of years.

www.rebeccayount.com (http://www.rebeccayount.com)

Elkene

Nov. 12, 2003, 04:04 AM

Well, to me it seems that we americans lack a "game plan" in the over-all scheme of sporthorse and WB breeding... by that I mean in the aspect of incorporating non-WB breeds into the mix.

If we want to produce AWB's, we all need to reach an agreement about what the goals are, what is to be produced. If we decide, "ASB's are ok to add to our WB program":

We slowly do so by strictly inspecting stallions and temporarily licensing to bred to WB mares only and evaluate the progeny of these crosses.

To be considered a AWB the foal must have no less than 50% WB blood. I.E. your approved stallion of breed X crossed on to a approved WB mare could be registered, BUT your approved stallion of breed X crossed onto a unapproved WB (or non-WB) would not be eligible aside from a "sport horse" registry.

This might seem a little harsh, but if we seek to "reinvent the wheel" let us not start with a square wheel.

Now, approved WB stallions could breed WB mares (or approved TB/arab mares) in this registry - as they do in other WB breeds.

JMHO, I will zip my flame suit http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif incase of fire.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 12, 2003, 04:59 AM

Elkene--

TASHR is based upon the American Saddlebred and improving the American Saddlebred breed for Olympic disciplines; not based on the warmblood. That's why ASB blood must be no less than 50%.

Inspections are required and breeding stock must pass set performance standards. A pre-approval is a restricted breeding license. If you read through inspection/performance process on the website you will see that.

I fully support American breeders using what we have in this country to create our own top-level sporthorses. That being said, I also fully support Americans who import and breed established European stock.

Julie--

I guess we'll still have to agree to disagree. While one can find purebred ASB's who are potentially up to the task of top-level performance (Olympic), they are simply not being bred according to consistant standards. You and I both know what they have to offer. There have just been too many breeders who have bred conformational inconsistancies within the breed and I believe this does have to be improved on.

The other serious problem is that some of the best ASB stallions have been culled because they did not have the fabulous knee and hock action or didn't carry the extreme "look" necessary to win in the ASHA showring. I know of one very large and well-known ASB breeder that gives away mares (of quality) without papers who do not produce the correct motion. I know this is not the only ASB breeder who does so.

Jasmine

Nov. 12, 2003, 05:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by lindac:
I personally don't see how you can compare a downhill, usually short necked AQHA crossed on a chunky draft horse with an ASB/WB cross.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now who's breed bashing? Appendix QH's are usually not downhill or short necked. Actually I know three full QH's that are doing very well for themselves as beginner jumpers, and all are very uphill with nice necks. (all are under the age of 5, so they haven't been pushed much yet.)

No one answered my question. Is TAHSR pursuing membership in the WBFSH? Seriously. If their breed goals are to produce olympic horses, wouldn't it be logical to join the WBFSH? That would also give them legitimacy as a sporthorse registry.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

Silly Mommy

Nov. 12, 2003, 06:09 AM

This is just too funny. Lack of knowledge leads to segregation and discrimination. Can't we all just get along (ignoring those that annoy us of course http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)??? Information and questions are good - attitudes suck.

BTW -
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>"Jennifer Wilder and Tawna King may or may not be successful in their venture- but they believe in what they are doing." I have already informed everyone as to the identity of *SERAPH*, weren't you listening ??LOL
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yeah, I caught that, and wondered if people were actually readin, or just pontificating.

Most people who go around fanning the flames of crises are themselves the problem.

http://groups.msn.com/WolfdenFarm/shoebox.msnw

tko

Nov. 12, 2003, 07:19 AM

Seems to me people who are so vehemently opposed to this registry are either blind, illiterate, or both. I'm seeing a lot of greeneyed monsters as well.

If you're not into it, what do you care?

Jasmine

Nov. 12, 2003, 07:21 AM

Well, tko, I'm not blind, or illiterate. I do, however, know how to post correctly.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 12, 2003, 07:22 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> blind, illiterate, or both <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Having seen ********'s stallion photo and considered it and her arguements "indepthly" I think you are calling the wrong people names. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

tko

Nov. 12, 2003, 07:31 AM

Yeah, I've seen how you guys like to jump all over people.

I would love to know the credentials any of you have to lend YOU any credibilty! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Jasmine

Nov. 12, 2003, 07:37 AM

We aren't trying to start a registry. If you like this one, fine. I feel sorry for you, but whatever. Have fun with your "olympic" level "sporthorses" that aren't even recognized by the WBFSH. And, please, by all means, stay away from me and my horses. Far, far, away.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

tko

Nov. 12, 2003, 07:50 AM

Take a chill pill, Jasmine. Just wondering what you're doing with your horses. I'm sure the people involved with this registry wish you would stay far, far away since you have nothing to say.

So glad I have your sympathy.http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

WBLover

Nov. 12, 2003, 08:00 AM

Little Indian:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> and didn't Maxamillion do Dressage at Devon this year and come back with some pretty great placings?? soemthing to think about <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great placings??? He scored 3rd in the Saddlebreds division being beat out by another stallion in 1st, and a GELDING in 2nd who placed over him by 5 points!! And 9th (LAST place) in the IRC division?? I'm sorry, but for a breeding animal I would think he should have done much better!! He's a nice looking horse, but I personally wouldn't breed to him if I were a mare owner. Nor if I owned him would I keep him as a stallion--I think he'd make a really nice gelded riding horse.

I am NOT a breeder so I don't have any sort of bias here, nor am I a "greeneyed monster" (LOL!!), just a horse enthusiast who has owned & competed horses for 10 years. As a consumer, I really don't see this registry as anything other than a creation made solely to fit some crossbreds into a registry since they don't fit into any other, for marketing purposes. Much like the "Georgian Grande" registry who's horses consist solely of the offspring from one whole farm. People want horses with papers and maybe an uneducated consumer would pay more for such a cross because it has "papers". As an EDUCATED consumer, I would view a horse with such breeding as a nice lower level mount that I may pay a few thousand dollars for, but certainly not as an "Olympic-caliber sporthorse" that is going to make it to the top. I think you are deluding yourselves. If I were a very ambitious amateur and want to get to Grand Prix someday, and had the resources/skill to train a youngster to that level, even to just compete regionally, I'd go right out and buy a really nice European WB. Sorry, but they have been bred for generations and proven themselves in the sport disciplines.

Louise

Nov. 12, 2003, 08:08 AM

ALL OF YOU

Settle down and quit bashing at each other. You are on this topic to discuss the pros and cons of a particular registry -- not to attack each other.

Note - I am not speaking to a particular "side" here. All of you need to "take a chill pill."

---------------------------
"This it be die most importante thing in die world, that someone they loff us."
Willem

tko

Nov. 12, 2003, 08:09 AM

'Wings, nice horse.

But your statement "These forums don't suffer fools lightly" is completely inaccurate, imo.

wanderlust

Nov. 12, 2003, 08:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by tko:
I would love to know the credentials any of you have to lend YOU any credibilty! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TKO, you obviously are new to this forum. The vast majority of posters are sporthorse owners or breeder. The person you are singling out has FAR more credibility than those pushing TASHR, considering that she actually has bred MANY babies approved with some of the major European registries.

Those of you asking for people's credibility and credentials really should be careful what you ask for... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

Erin

Nov. 12, 2003, 08:29 AM

I don't think tko is new.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

wanderlust

Nov. 12, 2003, 08:35 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Erin:
I don't think tko is new.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In that case...

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Great marketing and PR you guys are doing for your new registry... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

Elkene

Nov. 12, 2003, 08:45 AM

SARAPH - I was thinking about the americana sporthorse registry that was originally posted about, not TASHR, sorry should have been more clear.

I have not seen many ASB's who I liked as dressage horses either, but..then my experience is limited to only a handful of sightings http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

A popular ASB cross seems to be with Friesians in my neck of the woods.

Celtic Witch

Nov. 12, 2003, 08:49 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Bits and Pieces:
Susie (Celtic Witch),

Is there room in your cave for two ? (well - three - must bring the Siamese...)

Alternatively, we can all go to Lytham St.Annes for a nice stress-relieving gallop on the beach ?

Yours in sport,

Lynn<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure! Come on in. Can I offer you a vodka? Galloping is always more fun when you're a bit squiffy.

Susie

Medievalist

Nov. 12, 2003, 08:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Elkene:
I was thinking about the americana sporthorse registry that was originally posted about, not TASHR, sorry should have been more clear.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aren't those the same things? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

I *think* I am actually getting somewhere on these applications...but then again I may be lying to myself.
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 12, 2003, 09:02 AM

According to the link in the opening post, they are.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

Elkene

Nov. 12, 2003, 09:04 AM

Medievalist -

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Geez! Now I am really confused!! I guess I will have to read through all 7 pages to see where I went off the track!!

Karosel

Nov. 12, 2003, 09:09 AM

Guys, they're the same thing. TASHR is "the americana sporthorse registry".

~Humble pie doesn't taste too good...

Elkene

Nov. 12, 2003, 09:18 AM

Hm...maybe I will just scamper back to my corner and put my dunce cap on! I just re-read the website link.

TASHR is interested in keeping no less than 1/2 ASB in foals, I was thinking if we were "making" an American WB based on Euro WB's then foals should have at least 50% WB blood. (IE. F1 cross ASB X WB = foal that is 50% WB. F2 cross would have to be crossed back to a WB or part WB to keep the 50% WB minumum).

Ever had a day where you shoulda quit before you started? I'm starting to think I am having one of those http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Hey - I also just noticed that TASHR is in Mauldin SC - not 20 minutes from me!!

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 12, 2003, 09:29 AM

Under Breed Standards:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>The ideal Americana Sporthorse should have a body rectangular in shape, and slightly longer in length than in height. Emphasis should ALWAYS focus on "type". (i.e. they should carry the uniquely beautiful conformation attributes of the American Saddlebred.) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am confused, if they are supposed to look like an ASB, why go to the trouble of crossing them with other breeds?

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

aurum

Nov. 12, 2003, 09:39 AM

I also cannot see the needs of crossing a wonderful established breed like the American Saddlebred (my favorite of the American breeds) with some outside bloodlines. BUT I find it better to cross an ASB to a WB to establish an American WB then to do that with a draft cross.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

Hephaistion

Nov. 12, 2003, 09:45 AM

I'm confused about that too Wings. If you want the outcome to look like a saddlebred, then why open up the studbook to such a large x-section of breeds? I can understand wanting to make the ASB/warmblood cross, but why then ad in all the baroque horses like Friesans, Andalusians and Lusitanos? All of these horses were bred for completely different purposes, so how can you expect them together to suddenly produce FEI jumpers, eventers and dressage horses?

Because when I looked at the stallions on the site I can not project any sort of consistent "type" of sporthorse by using the blood available there.

If there are saddlebreds out there which are perfect for the FEI disciplines, then why not start breeding them together rather than trying to fix them by adding a hodge podge of other breeds? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

It could be that DMK's purpose of life is only to annoy...

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 12, 2003, 09:51 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
I am confused, if they are supposed to look like an ASB, why go to the trouble of crossing them with other breeds?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The saddlebreds that I saw doing Dressage many years ago, really don't resemble the "Saddleseat" show horses of today at all. They looked like TB's that had more elasticity in their gaits, but with a much quieter temperment. The closest I have seen to the mare that was shown in the 70's was a Hanoverian mare this year at Devon. She was bred by Marefield Meadows and did very well in the Materiale class (I think she won it) The Saddlebred mare "Dress Boots" reminded me very much of that Hanoverian mare.

I would have to agree that in my opinion the best use of a "new registry" would be to promote pure saddlebreds (of the older type) and breed them specifically for Dressage. I very much liked the older type, I am just not sure you can begin crossing them with any consistancy as it has not been done before and would take many generations to establish that. I would also do a lot of research into the older Saddlebred lines to find out what they were crossing to achieve them. If they are not finding the older type, and are trying to reproduce what "once was" by outcrossing with modern warmbloods, that is truly a huge undertaking that will have mixed results for a very long time.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

*SERAPH*

Nov. 12, 2003, 11:32 AM

Darlyn said:

" I would have to agree that in my opinion the best use of a "new registry" would be to promote pure saddlebreds (of the older type) and breed them specifically for Dressage. I very much liked the older type, I am just not sure you can begin crossing them with any consistancy as it has not been done before and would take many generations to establish that. I would also do a lot of research into the older Saddlebred lines to find out what they were crossing to achieve them. If they are not finding the older type, and are trying to reproduce what "once was" by outcrossing with modern warmbloods, that is truly a huge undertaking that will have mixed results for a very long time."

The pure ASB foundation stallions in TASHR are of the older bloodlines. You are right; they are not easy to find. TASHR's general policy in bringing in ASB stallions is to accept no more than one line of Sultan. There may be the rare exception, but as a general rule, we do not want to see more than one line as we feel that many of the issues ASB's are facing today may be traced through the Sultan line. Pure ASB horses of older bloodlines will be bred by TASHR and recorded in Book 1 ASB Sporthorse Type. These horses will not have to cross with Book 2 or Book 3 horses for their offspring to be Americana Sporthorses.

As for Book 2 and Book 3 and the reasoning behind them: This may be lengthy so bear with me. The American Saddlebred horse was specifically bred for over 200 years to be a versatile riding horse on an elite level. TASHR feels that unfortunately in the past 50 years or so, there seems to have been less emphasis on a correctly conformed athlete and a definite bent towards breeding horses with long backs, long weak loins, poorly "ribbed-up" connections, fine bone, narrowness through the chest and body, extreme neck sets, incorrect leg structure, low backs, and very flat croups. TASHR feels that this structure will not hold up to the sporthorse disciplines.

TASHR's opinion is that the original ASB type is NOT represented by the majority of todays's ASB's--the original ASB was created with correct proportions, great versatility, and excellent stamina. We are blessed, however, that it still carries its extreme athleticism, intelligence, trainability and great affection for humans.

Our breeding goals are stated in Book 2 and Book 3: TASHR seeks to revive the original American Saddlebred breed by crossing back in the breeds and/or blood that it originated from and upgrading it to enhance its performance capabilities according to the international sporthorse standards. These breeds would include Euro WB's and the Baroque or "Classical" warmbloods; the Friesian (or Hartdraver as it was called), the Andalusians, and Lipizzaners.

*I will note that these breeds of horses (classical) and their blood runs through all of the Euro WB's; and I will also note that these horses (classical) are now being bred according to modern sporthorse outlines/performance capabilities while still retaining their breed characteristics.

We have 3 separate books in our registry; not unlike the KWPN, which has a Gelderlander book, a Dutch Warmblood book, and a Dutch Harness horse book. We are more like the Selle Francais breeding program, however, in that all of our stock, with appropriate precentage of ASB blood , can be crossed. However, STRONG emphasis is placed on phenotype. The horses that will fit the TASHR standard will be those correctly conformed and who carry the Americana look; i.e. ASB characteristics with correct sporthorse conformation and build. Also, the horses in their 3 separate books will be judged in 3 separate divisions.

It will take generations. This will not happen overnight. TASHR is very much aware of that. I appreciate your pertinent questions, Darlyn, and the questions of others who truly wanted to know more!

Now, I think I've answered most questions thoroughly. If anyone has any further questions, please email TASHR directly. I see no real point in continuing discussing TASHR in a thread that is deteriorating into unwarranted snideness nor in answering questions from individuals with no real interest in TASHR.

Anne

Nov. 12, 2003, 12:03 PM

I have reviewed the stallions listed with this registry.

Two stallions mentioned passing on "motion" and "front end motion" in their descriptions. It's interesting to me that this attribute is listed proudly. I thought this registry was not encouraging the use of the show-type "high steppers" in its program.

I also find it interesting that the saddlebred stallions have no performance records listed, not even in the saddlebred breed-show arenas. How does one seriously undertake breeding Olympic level competitors from breeding stock that, we must assume, cannot perform themselves?

Seraph, are you referring to Supreme Sultan?

[This message was edited by Anne on Nov. 12, 2003 at 04:13 PM.]

cbrand

Nov. 12, 2003, 12:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by showjumpers66:
A long back is the least of an ASB's problems ... have you ever watched them move?? Most of them could not get under themselves or collect and round to save their lives. What about those long, sloping pasterns or the sickle hocks? Keep in mind that these qualities have been bred into these horses for generations. So unless you are willing to accept these qualities or spend generations fixing conformation and movement faults, stick with warmbloods who have been bred for generations to specifically be sporthorses.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well everything you just said about Saddlebreds is not true. My Saddlebred gelding is a FABULOUS dressage horse. He has excellent movement. He has a lovely over-step at the walk and he routinely gets eights on his trot and canter extensions. His canter is his best gait and he is able to collect with no problem. My gelding does not have extra long pasterns nor is he horribly sickle hocked. My horse is not the exception. He is the norm for the Saddlebred sporthorse type. You can see him here:

http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/spotlight.html

Other Saddlebred owners have had great success showing their ASBs in eventing and jumping. Take a look at these:

http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/cant_jump.html

I guess as a breeder/seller of warmbloods it is in your interest to convince sporthorse buyers that warmbloods are some how the only game in town. This simply is not true.

As for the Americana Sporthorse Registry, I don't see why Saddlebreds need to be crossed with Warmbloods.

Eddina Monsoon

Nov. 12, 2003, 01:19 PM

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

ASB Stars

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:21 PM

Alright, let's see...

First, Jennifer, I cannot agree with you about not being able to find the bloodlines- but I will agree that they are difficult to obtain- a different point altogether. As an example, Callaway Hills Stables, in Missouri, was started by a lady, Mrs. Lenore Weldon, with a prescient idea- she wanted to breed athletic American Saddlebreds who could go on to be great show horses- but they had to possess the great minds and athleticism first. Her foundation stallion, Callaway's Johnny Gillen was an own son of the great Wing Commander (who looked like a work horse in a stall). Mrs. Weldon's stallion Will Shriver was the cornerstone of her modern breeding effort. He was possessed of a gorgeous eye, set in a rather, well, warmblood looking head !!

Mrs. Weldon is now into line breeding her own horses, and a quick glance at ASHA stats will tell you that she has kept the "rack and trot" in the breed. Why is this important to this discussion ? Because the conformation and athleticsm to do these things, for one who takes the time to study them, are the abilities that allow a horse to sit, and create jump. Further, using this line of horses as an example- they tend to be more "forward headed" as opposed to having a vertical neckset, and consistently have correct underpinnings, broad chests, deep heartgirths, and lovely, free-shouldered movement with exceptional impulsion. They are typically good minded as well.

This line of horses has been tough to get hold of- primarily because the good ones are EXPENSIVE. To expect that your typical dressage is going to A: believe in the breed and B: buy a prospect for the same money that these folks can get for a show horse prospect isn't reality right now.

THE ASHA has promoted the ASB as the peacock of the show ring for so long that they are essentially responsible for creating the stigma that is attached to these horses. The folks that have posted about horses that they KNOW are at least ASB part-breds are part of a legion of horses that go unrecognized for fear of being tarred with this brush- I don't blame them. The ASHA has created a constellation of disenfranchised people- those who have ASBs that are not "show horses"- and these people- who have competitive animals for sport horse uses- have no umbrella underwhich to belong.

The bloodlines to which Jennifer aka *SERAPH*, longingly refers are those that are quite possibly useful horses- but the as these bloodlines faded in popularity, in favor of the Sultan crosses, as an example, these people lost the economic means to market their horses. Thus, they are almost extinct. The ASHA makes no attempt to create a secondary market for American Saddlebreds. Quite simply- there are show horses- and thn there is everything else.

Some of these bloodlines were never well made, athletic horses. Some were terrific using horses. Supreme Sultan changed the rules by making "pretty" a standard. Prior to he and his sire, Valley View Supreme, becoming influences- pretty was a great thing to find, but athletic ruled the day. The Sultan horses matured more quickly as well, making lines like the fabulously athletic and late blooming Stonewall King horses less attractive to trainers. They simply couldn't make them fast enough to make money- like they could with the Sultan's. This is a stroy you can find in any breed.

For those of you that are still with me, which I appreciate, I will tell you the punch line: my issue with TASHR stems from the fact that in their inability to obtain horses from the very best lines- which DO produce the same athletes that we need- with their necks set a notch further forward- they are creating a genepool from horses that didn't make it. When I watch that gorgeous Rocher do her piaffe and passage tours trotting level- and her extensions as well- I realize that range of motion is what it coming to- and this breed has it in spades.

You can find any breed, and see horses that simply have no athletic ability- and you can find marvelous examples as well. Since fewer that 3000 of these horses are registered in a year- it makes sense that many that you see would not excell at the most competitive levels. You could look at tens of thousands of horses of other breeds, that had been bred and prepared for this work, and see the same thing. I certainly do not expect everyone to agree that they have seen ASBs with outstanding talent, but I would appreciate it if you would allow for the possibility.

One more item- the ASB class was incorrectly reported on Dressage Daily, and the very kind Lori Kaminski- secretary of the DAD breed show is having it changed. Maxamillion was fourth. My colt won it with a 78% ( and he has TWO lines of Sultan...LOL) his half brother was second with a 75%, and my gelding recieved the same score as Tawna's colt- a 70.3% and was tied over him by Ms. Gurney.

Thank you for your time !

Julie

Little Indian

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:22 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by WBLover:
Little Indian:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> and didn't Maxamillion do Dressage at Devon this year and come back with some pretty great placings?? soemthing to think about <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Great placings??? He scored 3rd in the Saddlebreds division being beat out by another stallion in 1st, and a GELDING in 2nd who placed over him by 5 points!! And 9th (LAST place) in the IRC division?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

BUT did he score under a fully grown horse in the saddlebred classes and/or the IRC classes. the horse is only two years (three?) years old and good God, all of my horses were still in their gawky stages....you've seen pictures of Silly Mommy's lovely stallion now and in his yearling stage... he looks like a complete different horse! Maxamillion looks to be very smoothly put together (no sharp withers and everything seems to flow nicely) especially for his age. not all horses are conformationally perfect at the age of two because they are still growing. maybe tawna could post a picture of Max of a foal?

wanderlust

Nov. 12, 2003, 03:40 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Little Indian:

BUT did he score under a fully grown horse in the saddlebred classes and/or the IRC classes. the horse is only two years (three?) years old and good God, all of my horses were still in their gawky stages....you've seen pictures of Silly Mommy's lovely stallion now and in his yearling stage... he looks like a complete different horse! Maxamillion looks to be very smoothly put together (no sharp withers and everything seems to flow nicely) especially for his age. not all horses are conformationally perfect at the age of two because they are still growing. maybe tawna could post a picture of Max of a foal?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I believe he is three... and from the pictures I've seen (and what Tawna has stated in previous threads) may be a tad rump-high, but nothing too obvious that could be attributed to his age, IMHO.

The saddlebred class was won by a colt, which also means the winner of the class was 3 or under. I'd like to think that someone like Hilda Gurney could discern the quality of conformation, despite some unlevelness due to age. She is, after all, an avid breeder.

~formerly Master Tally~

rebecca yount

Nov. 12, 2003, 04:06 PM

Another question: does TASHR feel that the stallions pictured represent the conformation they are looking for? Some of them look pretty long-backed to me--or is it felt that this characteristic will be eliminated even though the approved stallions have it?

www.rebeccayount.com (http://www.rebeccayount.com)

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 12, 2003, 05:26 PM

ASB Stars, thank you very much for a clear and well stated synopsis of ASB lines for those of us who are not familiar with Saddlebred breeding.

When I think of Saddlebreds, the famous images of Wing Commander are in my head. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Class will out in any breed, and the dross will fall by the way. Several people on this and past discussions have stated their belief (as well as their appreciation) in the ASB as an atheletic and fluid horse capable of multiple disciplines. The very history and current show uses prove this as fact.

I still am bemused that proponents of a breed with such capabilities would wish to dilute those very characteristics rather than selectively and carefully bring along a line (such as is being done within the Morgan with the Lipitt line) to bring the breed back to it's origins.

Thank you again, ASB Stars, I hope you have much more to share about this truly original american all around capable breed. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Saddlebred, Morgan, Standardbred, Tennessee Walker, Missouri Fox Trotter, Quarter Running Horse and others are all North American sport horses. No new breed can claim to be the "first"

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 12, 2003, 05:30 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:

...rather than selectively and carefully bring along a line (such as is being done within the Morgan with the Lipitt line) to bring the breed back to it's origins.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As the owner of a pure Lippitt, one that I very deliberately bred for a very deliberate purpose (I wanted a Morgan that looked like a Morgan) I would like to say THANK YOU! Not a lot of people "get it" when we start talking Lippitt Morgans.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Karosel

Nov. 12, 2003, 05:44 PM

See to me, what the above recent posters makes more sense. If the original ASB is wonderful why not restore the breed? If the type is supposed to be like an ASB why bring in warmbloods, which are very different in type (to the common ASB?)? To me this goal seems more achievable and more realistic. Just my .02

~Humble pie doesn't taste too good...

showjumpers66

Nov. 12, 2003, 11:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Elkene:
Well, to me it seems that we americans lack a "game plan" in the over-all scheme of sporthorse and WB breeding... by that I mean in the aspect of incorporating non-WB breeds into the mix.

If we want to produce AWB's, we all need to reach an agreement about what the goals are, what is to be produced. If we decide, "ASB's are ok to add to our WB program":

We slowly do so by strictly inspecting stallions and temporarily licensing to bred to WB mares only and evaluate the progeny of these crosses.

To be considered a AWB the foal must have no less than 50% WB blood. I.E. your approved stallion of breed X crossed on to a approved WB mare could be registered, BUT your approved stallion of breed X crossed onto a unapproved WB (or non-WB) would not be eligible aside from a "sport horse" registry.

This might seem a little harsh, but if we seek to "reinvent the wheel" let us not start with a square wheel.

Now, approved WB stallions could breed WB mares (or approved TB/arab mares) in this registry - as they do in other WB breeds.

JMHO, I will zip my flame suit http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif incase of fire.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

VERY WELL SAID, ELKENE!

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

showjumpers66

Nov. 12, 2003, 11:57 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Karosel:
See to me, what the above recent posters makes more sense. If the original ASB is wonderful why not restore the breed? If the type is supposed to be like an ASB why bring in warmbloods, which are very different in type (to the common ASB?)? To me this goal seems more achievable and more realistic. Just my .02

~Humble pie doesn't taste too good...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Totally agree with you!

And hey, is anyone else receiving hateful private emails?? Jeesh!

Most of my exposure to the ASB has been at the pleasure shows. I go to the Pinto World every year and see the ASB and Arab crosses. My aunt's first hunter was an ASB (he was a horrible jumper http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) and there was an open jumper in our barn ... he has tons of scope, but is a very flat jumper and while he can jump very high he can not jump wide).

I do not breed for dressage, I breed jumpers. So why am I jealous or worried about losing business?? I, too, have browsed the websites and did not see any stallions that I would consider breeding to my mares ... this is my right. Having an opinion does not make me a bad person.

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

Coreene

Nov. 13, 2003, 09:06 AM

Totally separate from this registry, but what is the name of that palomino stallion, a saddlebred, who was approved by the NRPS in Holland? That horse was a hottie.

HFSH

Nov. 13, 2003, 09:19 AM

Wasn't it something like Kalomino?

Any connection between your reality and mine is purely coincidental.

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 13, 2003, 09:31 AM

quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Karosel:
See to me, what the above recent posters makes more sense. If the original ASB is wonderful why not restore the breed? If the type is supposed to be like an ASB why bring in warmbloods, which are very different in type (to the common ASB?)?

What I saw of the original Saddlebreds was that they were VERY similar in type to modern warmbloods - nothing like what is being shown today.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Coreene

Nov. 13, 2003, 09:35 AM

No, I don't think that's the one. I looked at the NRPS site but I can't find it.

ASB Stars

Nov. 13, 2003, 11:02 AM

His name was Denmark's Golden playboy, and he is now deceased. He was a lovely five gaited stallion.

Julie

MdLib

Nov. 13, 2003, 11:11 AM

Kalomino is a son of Denmark's Golden Playboy!

Little Indian

Nov. 13, 2003, 02:01 PM

instead of using this thread for your own personal rants against the registery/association why don't you all e-mail them your questions? This would clear up ALL speculations and you can get the information YOU ARE LOOKING FOR straight from the source, even though this seems like a hard concept for many of you to grasp http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I have had direct contact with the registry and they confirmed to me that NOT ONE person has e-mailed or called them with what you all are complaining about. THis thread is potentially hurting people's business' so I'd really think about what you're typing before actually posting it.
off my soapbox.
back to your bickering.

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 13, 2003, 03:06 PM

I understand your suggestion, Little Indian. But I think that if somone were to skip over the sharper-tongued posts and really read the information (as opposed to opinions) set before them on this thread, they will get a much more objective view than if they went directly to "the source" (though I have caught a few hints that "the source" itself has made a comment or two).

I really enjoyed ASB Stars post on page 8. It should be required reading for anyone who wants to blast the American Saddlebred breed.

Another wonderful learning opportunity, thanks to COTH BB!

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Ashemont

Nov. 13, 2003, 08:17 PM

Our stallion Welt Marke was invited to be part of TASHR. He is prepotent at producing uphill horses with excellent movement (100% Premium foals with three crops on the ground!). We appreciated the goals of this registry - trying to re-establish the ASB as the sporthorse that it originally was. I just don't see how making our stallion available to them is a problem or why it would be a reason for someone to NOT breed to him. His pedigree is impeccable. He's proven himself in performance (not only successful at 4th level dressage and schooling all GP movements, but just today Mike Plumb used the word "Perfect" after a number of fences - the boy can JUMP too!). We did not allow our stallion to be included because we are desperate for breedings; we allowed him to be included because we feel he can help achieve the goals of the registry.

We've been breeding German warmbloods successfully for almost 20 years. But you all must remember that with the exception of the Trakehner the others are all just REGISTRIES... they are not BREEDS. I don't see how this differs from TASHR. They're just limiting their crosses to include a certain percentage of ASB. Was there as much hullabaloo when the Quarter Sporthorse Registry (which was eventually absorbed by AWS)was founded? Same principal. And we've seen MANY good WB-QH crosses. Let's give these guys a chance. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif If they don't produce they will die a natural death.

Pat Belskie
ASHEMONT

Home of the only "PikÃ¶r" stallion in the world...
RPSI registered/licensed "AB Phoenix"
also standing the Oldenburg stallion "Welt Marke"
Licensed RPSI and AWS Elite
http://www.ashemont.com
ashemont@ashemont.com

Beezer

Nov. 13, 2003, 08:18 PM

Thank you, Julie! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif What a well-reasoned, well-written post with some great facts.

A beautiful ASB -- much like any other well-bred, well-trained horse doing a job it is suited for and enjoys -- is a genuine pleasure to watch. I don't care if it's doing dressage, jumping, pulling a roadster cart or taking a little kid for its first "pony" ride.

There are **individuals** in every breed that can do something well that the breed wasn't historically bred for; that does NOT mean that every member of the breed can do the same equally well. It's obvious that Julie has mined ASBs that fit her "program" and goals, but I also think she'd be the first to say that not every ASB meets her requirements.

Heck, my late Trakehner mare was a terrific combined driving horse, but that doesn't mean I expected her to pass that talent on to her son (even if he DOES move like a bad cart horse http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ) -- it WAS an unusual use for a warmblood mare with her classic jumper lines, which is what I expected her to pass on: the jumping talent. If I WERE to go looking for a combined driving horse, I don't think I'd put a Trakehner at the top of my list -- although an ASB would likely be there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Which is a long way of saying that I would not breed an ASB (or, for that matter, a Friesian or Andalusian or Tennessee Walker or Paso or Rocky Mountain Horse) with the intent of producing a horse that would excel in dressage, eventing or show jumping. But I would not automatically thumb's down an ASB (though I'd likely pass on some of the other breeds I just mentioned http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif ) if it happened to have an affinity for my sport.

To paraphrase Champ Hough in a Practical Horseman conformation clinic years ago when presented with a Hanoverian/ASB cross to evaluate: Why would you even consider crossing two breeds whose conformation, backgrounds and uses are so different?

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

lorik

Nov. 14, 2003, 03:09 AM

Julie,
The results of the Dressage at Devon Saddlebred class on the Horsesdaily.com site are now correct. Sorry for the error. My fault, really. I guess I missed it when I did the sort by score.
Lori Kaminski

HrsArtist

Nov. 14, 2003, 04:55 AM

Yea..thanks so much for clarifying... I am sure Tawna gets some joy out of it and appreciates it. Maxamillion Placed LAST. YEAH!!! (well BROKEN tie) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
Some people are so shallow...we all know who we are....ASB stars.

HORSE PORTRAITS
www.pasquella.com (http://www.pasquella.com)

ASB Stars

Nov. 14, 2003, 05:39 AM

Well now, Brigg !!

I am sure it was fine for me to sit quietly by- which Lori will confirm that I did, when the results were posted incorrectly all over the web and in COTH. When Lori sent the results to me several weeks after the show, as they do for the class sponsors, I emailed her back at that time, and mentioned the error, which she graciously corrected.

Tawna called me yesterday, and while that discussion is between she and I, I will state here that virtually everything that I have stated is the truth as I believe it. I believe that it takes guts to show a horse at Dressage at Devon, against the best, and that Tawna took her stallion out, and he made a very nice presentation. I did the open divisions with two of my horses in the past two years. This isn't for the faint of heart.

As I stated before, there is walking the walk, and talking the talk. Tawna is out there doing her best. Her scores are certainly not "take your ugly horse home" scores. Until, and unless, you are prepared to step up to the plate, it is ridiculous for anyone to castigate her- or anyone who is making a quality presentation.

The results speak for themselves- I would not have made the correction if someone hadn't posted the incorrect results. Would any of you do differently ?

Julie

*SERAPH*

Nov. 14, 2003, 05:41 AM

This is just a statement and an observation to everyone posting or viewing this thread:

It is true, whether or not you agree with the goals and breeding direction of TASHR, you are entitled to your opinion.

However, we at TASHR felt that this thread crossed the line and began to become more an attack on the credibility of the registry as well as the credibility of the stallions/ breeders/members that are a part of the registry. Things have been said which we consider to be completely beyond the pale by people who do not have to reveal their identities and credentials on a public forum of over 10,000 members. We felt that the postings were not moderated appropriately and people were allowed to malign us with impunity. With COTH being a forum of over 10,000 members, we felt the viewers could not form a balanced opinion about TASHR and the stallions/farms/members affiliated with TASHR, if they so cared to, when some individuals involved in these discussions were posting scathing and highly inflamatory remarks but not having to reveal their own identities, associations, or credentials.

We asked Erin to lock this thread. She commented about first admendmant rights. Apparently, this is entirely subjective on the COTH board. The ISR/ GOV thread was locked because people involved in these registries felt that the ongoing bickering was casting them both in a bad light and could cause negative ramications for them and their membership. Which it was!

The same thing occurred with another thread, the DBNA thread, in the last couple of days. This was not even a nasty thread. But it was about a new association, which was receiving both positive and negative comments. Erin seemed to have no problem stepping up to the plate and moderating this thread appropriately. And when people still posted "negative" opinions, she locked it. The DBNA thread went on for 4 pages, had 68 postings, and 2327 views before it was locked.

Though we at TASHR have requested this thread, which has been contentious and certainly not flattering, to be locked or if nothing else, appropriately moderated, we have been flatly denied. At my writing of this, this thread has gone 9 pages, with 173 postings and 5085 views.

Whether you agree with us or disagree with us, we deserve the same respect that is paid to ISR/NA, GOV, or DBNA.

We did not initiate this thread. We request this thread be locked.

Sincerely,
Jennifer Wilder/ Executive Director
TASHR

FairWeather

Nov. 14, 2003, 05:50 AM

So the real question is, Should your registry be up there with the "banned" subjects?

I'm sure Erin has her reasons, and I can pretty much guarantee that its not the big CONSPIRACY that you think it is.
Its a public discussion forum http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

caffeinated

Nov. 14, 2003, 05:59 AM

I don't see this thread as so ragingly out of control it needs to be locked. In fact I'm glad it's been open as long as it has because I've actually LEARNED *gasp* some things about saddlebreds that I didn't know before. I've learned that the registry is out there. And I, like most readers who haven't posted on this, am pretty capable of making my own mind up without being tainted by some of the opinions in this thread.

We used to have a saddlebred stallion at my grandfather's farm, named Sensation (at least that's what we called him), who did all kinds of stuff. He drove, he went saddleseat, he jumped, he went western. When I see some pictures of fancy show saddlebreds I scratch my head... sensation wasn't anything like that, even though he could trot real high and park out, he was a nice meaty horse with a lot of great traits... Between that experience and this thread I'm at least *thinking* some about the possibilities (whether or not TASHR has the right idea) and am a bit more open minded to it.

I don't think this thread has been so nasty that everyone reading it will get the "wrong" idea about the registry, anyway

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 06:02 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>

To paraphrase Champ Hough in a Practical Horseman conformation clinic years ago when presented with a Hanoverian/ASB cross to evaluate: Why would you even consider crossing two breeds whose conformation, backgrounds and uses are so different?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, maybe to get horses like this:
http://community.webshots.com/photo/97358188/97359267VqufRh

This ASB/Hanoverian cross was recently sold as an A/O jumper to a junior in the States. He is unflappable, is presently clearing 4'3" courses with scope for more, and, oh, not to mention he has never in his 9 years been lame or sick?
The Warmblood/Saddlebred is a killer combo. The sooner people clue in to that, the better off they will be.
Jeez, the Quarter horse and the TB are just as different, and yet Appendixes are very popular mounts. What IS it with you close-minded people??
I am going to go backwards and read this whole thread... And try to control my anger. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

FairWeather

Nov. 14, 2003, 06:05 AM

Lianne, thats a beautiful animal http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Very athletic looking!

aurum

Nov. 14, 2003, 06:28 AM

No matter of me preferring ASB in pure, I have to say that Tawna's stallion Maxamillion is a very nice cross - I think that alongside with Kalamino he is the nicest ASB cross that I have ever seen.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 14, 2003, 06:33 AM

I think crossing Saddlebreds and Warmbloods (on paper - looking at gaits and types) makes MUCH more sense to produce Dressage horses than crossing TBs and Warmbloods. It just hasn't been done before like the with the TBs, so will take a while to establish confidence/proof.

Europe had the availability of lots of TBs and Arabs, not Saddlebreds, so that is what they used.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Erin

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:08 AM

The DBNA thread was becoming an argument between a very small group of people over a very specific incident. I asked them to drop it, they didn't, the thread was locked. It was not locked because of negative comments about the DBNA... those comments were legitimate constructive criticism and will always be allowed.

The ISR/Old NA moratorium was not imposed because people felt the arguments were casting the registries in a bad light, although many people did have that opinion and they're probably right. The moratorium was imposed because posters have proven time and time again that they CANNOT discuss the subject calmly and rationally, and the moderators got tired of dealing with it. That was an extremely unusual situation for which we needed to come up with a rather unorthodox solution.

While there have been some inappropriate posts on this thread, the overall tone has been civil, and it has actually been quite informative for people like me who don't know much about ASBs. Yes, posters have questioned the registry and its purpose, as is their right. But it is not the moderators' job to protect individual interests from public scrutiny.

In short, people are allowed to tell you that they think your registry is a bad idea. They are allowed to question and criticize it. They are allowed to say that is the best thing since sliced bread and will be God's gift to the sport horse industry. They are allowed to offer whatever opinions they like, basically. And you're equally welcome to defend the reasoning behind the registry and try to explain why you're doing what you're doing.

But if you bring up your registry on a public forum -- which, Jennifer, you have done on numerous occasions, even if you didn't start this particular thread -- then you can't complain when the discussion doesn't go the way you want it to go. Your choices are to either participate in the discussion and try to change people's minds, or just accept that they don't agree with you and walk away from the discussion.

[This message was edited by Erin on Nov. 14, 2003 at 11:19 AM.]

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:23 AM

Okay, well, I just read everything said on here.. and while the initial posts TRULY made my blood boil.. (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif).. It seems that through careful explanation of facts, pictures, Dressage scores, and history lessons.. most of the major skeptics have clammed up. Thank god.

I want to share something with you guys: remember how the Dutch imported the ASB stallion Playboy to cross with their mares? Saddlebreds bashers will laugh and say "yes, but to get Dutch Harness Horses, and the experiment failed misearbly".

Okay.... so WHY do you think it failed?

It failed because the resulting ASB/WB crosses were NOT good harness horses. They DID not move with the extreme knee action and animation required. Which means... *gasp* they probably moved like Dressage horses.. and lo and behold, up pops Kalamino in the US piaffing around the ring like nobody's business.

Think about that for a minute.

Also, nobody is calling these horses warmbloods. Americana Sporthorses, yes. Warmbloods, no.

If all the horses presently competing in open competition (maybe not the Olympics, but high level just the same) that were ASB crosses were advertised as such, there probably wouldn't be a need for this registry. But the FACT is, most people can't help themselves: theny conveniently forget to mention the ASB half. The girl who purchased the horse whose photo I
posted is a member of this BB. And in one of her recent posts, she referred to her new horse by saying "my new horse is also a Warmblood, and..." Case in point. The Saddlebred half was omitted. poof. Gone.
Now, don't get me wrong, I'm sure she is no way ashamed of his "other half", but that's just the way the ball bounces. People will call them "warmblood crosses", and the Saddlebred half gets lost in space... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

And you people who spout off about "why breed for anything less than exceptional, Olympic-calibre horses?". That's a load of crap. There are plenty of people who have been breeding Euro warmbloods for years and whose products have never seen the Olympic arena. Should they stop breeding too? Is their program a failure because their horses have only gone on to successful A careers with amateur riders on their backs? EXACTLY.
It's funny... most Warmbloods around here will never make it to the Olympics, or anywhere close. But that doesn't seem to matter...

*sigh* I'm emotionally exhausted. My name is Lianne, and I own an 8-year old ASB mare who is in foal to a Dutch stallion.
I am not hiding behind anything. I shamelessly promote my mare's breed and the cross, but I do it mostly when I get wind of ignorant, prejudiced comments.

Can I have a hug? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

*SERAPH*

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:29 AM

Lianne--

(((((((((((BIG HUG))))))))))!

BEAUTIFULLY SAID! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

fleur

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:31 AM

lianne, i'm sure your foal will be a lovely cross.

i'm still confused, though, as to why the pure asb stallions in tashr were chosen as none of them really seem to have any sporthorse characteristics. why not go straight to the 'fluke' sporthorse saddlebreds?

*SERAPH*

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:40 AM

ALL of the pure ASB stallions in TASHR ARE sporthorse stallions or producing foals with excellent sporthorse movement.

They also have appropriate conformation and substance.

Janeway

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
I want to share something with you guys: remember how the Dutch imported the ASB stallion Playboy to cross with their mares? Saddlebreds bashers will laugh and say "yes, but to get Dutch Harness Horses, and the experiment failed misearbly".

Okay.... so WHY do you think it failed?

It failed because the resulting ASB/WB crosses were NOT good harness horses. They DID not move with the extreme knee action and animation required. Which means... *gasp* they probably moved like Dressage horses.. and lo and behold, up pops Kalamino in the US piaffing around the ring like nobody's business.

Think about that for a minute.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Aw, but the directives were not the same. The KWPN imported the saddlebreds to only improve the harness horses: they were not using the ASB blood to improve the sport horses in dressage and jumping. The fact that the experimented crosses produced one outstanding individual is not relevant because they were not trying for sport horses. In fact I give the KWPN credit for their ability to cull those horses that they do not think will suit their breeding goals.

Plus, the Gelderlanders that make up most of the Tuigpaard book have often been used in sport and are the basis along with the Groningen for creating the Dutch Warmblood. So telling us to think about the fact that a dressage horse came from harness horse bloodlines is rather redundant and nothing special.

I don't remember his name (Dikiloo?), but one of the British Dressage Team horses for a while was a full Gelderlander. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:49 AM

Janeway - you completely missed my point. I KNOW that the ASB's weren't being used to breed sporthorses. That was my whole point, they were trying to get Harness Horses, and they didn't!!! So the "culls" could very well have gone on to successful sporthorse careers, and I'll bet some did, but you'd never hear about the ASB lineage unless they went to very very top.

And you say it's irrelevant because "they weren't TRYING to produce sporthorses?".. Well heck, if Kalamino is the kind of horse they produced by NOT trying, imagine what kind of lovely horses they would have gotten had they actually BEEN trying to produce sporthorses?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:54 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Janeway:

Aw, but the directives were not the same. The KWPN imported the saddlebreds to _only_ improve the harness horses: they were not using the ASB blood to improve the sport horses in dressage and jumping. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think that is what she was saying. If the saddlebred had been used to cross with the sporthorses, and not the Harnesss horses, there may have been a very different outcome. I believe she was trying to say that the Dressage Horse was good because of the Saddlebred in him, inspite of the Harness lines.

The saddlebreds I saw in the 70s just blew me away. They are what started my fascination with dressage.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Fairview Horse Center

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:56 AM

I actually think that the lady (Nanette Ditterick) that was using them (help me memory, this is really reaching) was the President of Virginia Dressage Association - maybe one of the 1st Presidents, if not THE first.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

Janeway

Nov. 14, 2003, 07:59 AM

Oh no, I got your point, I just don't see the significance of it like you do. Just because there was one good dressage cross from that experiment does not mean it was necessarily the ASB blood that created it as you seem to imply. Their are many dressage horses with Gelderlander blood in them, so that contributed to Kalamino as much as the ASB.

So jumping to the assumption that whole reason the Dutch experiment failed with the ASB's was because they were super dressage horses in disguise is a bit of a leap.

From reading this thead I now know way more about the ASBs, and understand that there are many sporthorses among them, but I still find that your analogy of Kalomino being proof of the ASB's superior sport genetics falls short.

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

FionaJ

Nov. 14, 2003, 08:04 AM

I'm sure you will say that I need to e-mail the association, but perhaps you will let everyone know, who is it that defines what "They also have appropriate conformation and substance" is. Is it the board of directors and what are their qualifications?

The other thing is that when I read the page on Breed Standards, I came away not knowing really what it was that the organization was trying to accomplish. The opening paragraph is nice, but "instantly recognizable" makes me want to ask why--and as a sport horse consumer my answer personally would be because of movement, athletic ability, and basically tangible things--not blanket ideas like "courage of heart," "beauty (which is in the eye of the beholder)" "positive spirit" (what exactly is that)and don't most horses carry themselves with "great nobility?" I just think that this can read better to state the breed standards in a less "fluffy" way which will give it more credibility. And the remainder read like it was pulled from a more or less 4-H judging guide. I don't really "get the picture" from reading the standard so to speak. Maybe I am being obtuse--I am pretty tired right now, but I am trying to understand what your organization is trying to do because it sounds and in general looks like a unique cross.

Maybe part of the problem in perception is the fact that not everyone is 100% on board. Personally, I know this cross isn't for me. As a mare owner, I would have to say the overall lack of performance records of the stallions--ASB that is--in the traditional FEI disciplines would immediately preclude them from my list of stallion candidates, so it may make more sense to take ASB mares to traditional warmblood stallions--isn't that what Maxamillion is? Anyway, I'll probably be sorry for even posting on this thread.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 14, 2003, 08:20 AM

FionaJ--

"Personally, I know this cross isn't for me."

So why should I waste my time answering your questions? We are not trying to achieve validity in the eyes of people who have no interest. And since you are not interested in what we are producing, why bother to ask questions at all?

Hephaistion

Nov. 14, 2003, 08:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
why bother to ask questions at all?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because that is how one learns.

Instead of "not bothering" to answer, why not educate instead? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

It could be that DMK's purpose of life is only to annoy...

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 08:49 AM

You know, I've just finished browsing the websites of most of the breeders that have posted on here. I see Warmbloods that are being bred to Paints, TB's, Quarter horses, Arabs, you name it.... And they do it proudly and advertise the corssed foals on their sites.

How do these same people turn around and act so shocked and disgusted when the suggestion is made of crossing Saddlebreds to Warmbloods?
Surely you can't claim that Paints and Quarter horses were bred for the FEI disciplines...?

p.s. holy crap, Julie, Borealis did great at Devon! A pure ASB, placing ahead of babies by the likes of Contango and Fabriano...
Take THAT, you nay-sayers!! *lol*

j/k http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[This message was edited by Lianne on Nov. 14, 2003 at 01:09 PM.]

*SERAPH*

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:07 AM

Jair--

Have you read the entire thread? I have more than thoroughly answered questions.

I reserve the right, however, to not answer "thinly-veiled" (ha!) attempts at trying to discredit TASHR or its members, stallions, breeders, farms. It's quite apparent that some posters on this thread don't want to know the answers to their questions. Which is precisely why I wanted this thread locked.

OneonOne

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:08 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
So why should I waste my time answering your questions? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Perhaps there are people who are lurking here who have the same questions, and are interested in this registry. Just because Fiona is not interested, doesn't mean there aren't other potential consumers out there. You should be trying to achieve validity for the sake of those lurking consumers.

__________________________________
Formerly mmclough

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:08 AM

Which mares are TASHR approved? Have there been any mares included in the foundation books?

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

*SERAPH*

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:11 AM

OneonOne--

Then those people interested can contact me via the TASHR website.

Erin

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:12 AM

Lianne, the TASHR website itself says their goal is to produce Olympic-caliber horses.

Someone (I think it was ASB Stars) mentioned earlier that the ASB national association (is it ASHA? I am acronym challenged! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) does not offer any recognition for ASB sport horses, but focuses exclusively on ASB show ring performance. Are there any organizations that DO recognize ASB sport horses? I'm guessing USDF must have an all-breed award for them. Is there anything like the PHR devoted exclusively to ASBs?

Just curious. I admit that I'm skeptical that we'll see ASB crosses in the Olympics anytime soon, but there certainly do seem to be ASBs and crosses that have performed well in dressage in particular, and other sports as well. But they don't seem to get much recognition... it's a shame that they don't get it from their own association.

*SERAPH*

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:16 AM

Lianne--

Check your pt's.

Erin

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:17 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:

Have you read the entire thread? I have more than thoroughly answered questions.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Some of them.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>I reserve the right, however, to not answer "thinly-veiled" (ha!) attempts at trying to discredit TASHR or its members, stallions, breeders, farms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are a credible organization, then you should have no problems with providing your credentials. Does a potential employer "discredit" you when they ask for a resume or check your references?

Seraph, by dodging these questions, you're making it LOOK like you have something to hide. The fault is not with the people who are merely asking the questions...

OneonOne

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:18 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
OneonOne--

Then those people interested can contact me via the TASHR website.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It just seems to me like you are trying to hide something. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Why not just be upfront?

__________________________________
Formerly mmclough

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:20 AM

No, Erin, the ASHA does a shoddy job of promoting the ASB sporthorse. I'm sorry if I offend anyone (although I have a feeling there aren't very many ASHA lurkers on COTH!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ), but it's the truth.

I don't know what is about Saddlebreds that makes so many people's skin crawl when it is suggested they might have talent for other things besides prancing around with their knees up to their chin. What is at the heart of this distaste? In general, people just don't have the same guttural, negative reaction when confronted with a WB/TB cross. Or a QH/TB cross. Quarter horses were bred for reining. So?? Thoroughbreds were bred for racing. So??

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Hephaistion

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:20 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
Jair--

Have you read the entire thread? I have more than thoroughly answered questions.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why do people keep asking them? And yes, I did read the whole thread otherwise I wouldn't not have posted here. Plus, please note that as a BB Guide my comment was intended to be friendly. I always find it frustrating when someone bothers to write " I can't be bothered to answer" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Every breeding registry has been discussed here at some point over the years, and all of them have had supporters, interested parties, neighsayers and curious georges, your is no different. I would think that as someone helping to start a fledging breeding organization you would be prepared for all aspects of commentary. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

This has been a fascinating discussion IMO and obviously very good exposure for you. Even though some people have been perhaps overly negative in your eyes, there are probably many other lurkers who are genuinely interested.

I for one was interested to read ASB Star's account of the saddlebreds.

It could be that DMK's purpose of life is only to annoy...

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:23 AM

It's not the crosses in themselves, it is the seemingly desperate need to have some claim to being other than a cross. If TASHR believes in this cross and, after several generations, has a good, consistent type come from it, more power to them.

We've heard quite a number of people on this and other topics who love their Saddlebreds and ASB cross horses. I know I certianly enjoyed the one I had years ago.

Quarter Horses, by the way, originated in Virginia and were bred for racing on the short distance tracks of Colonial times. American Quarter Running Horse. They just happened to be very good at working cattle and excel at reining.

I believe some Saddlebreds do well working cattle, too. They are a versitile breed.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

MdLib

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:29 AM

I wish seraph would answer Everythingbutwing's dam question (sigh), and NOT in a pt. That is a very valid question with any registry.

Just answer the dam question (haha, crack myself up)

cau

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:33 AM

I remember seeing that comment in practical horseman ("why would you cross two horses with such different backgrounds?") years and years ago and thinking how silly it was. It showed the author knew very little about the antecedants of saddlebres or WBs (both themselves creative crossbreds that include many "types" ) and breeding techniques (people crossed arabs with drafts in the production of percherons, for goodness sake! how "different" are those foundation breeds! )

I found it interesting that someone ELSE remembered it after 20 (?) years.

Coincidentally, I found out later that the picture had been sent in by a woman who was later a student of mine in vet school. We discussed this at length and she told me she had quite appropriately shrugged off this silly comment...

I think people go to the WB/TB and WB/SB cross for similar reasons -- a desire for more speed and more less bulk than is found in some WB manifestations. Or put alternately, a desire for MORE bulk and strength than is found in some SB manifestations. I am sure it is possible to find the perfect individual within the confines of existing registries. However, crossbreeding has a long and honorable tradition.

I am really baffled about why people get so unhappy at the idea of a) crossbreeding or b) the formation of associations/registries for people interested in a particular cross.

Chris U.

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:33 AM

Everythingbutwings - I see your point, and that does make sense. I am not involved in this registry, but I think that part of the reason it was started was borne of frustration at the lack of recognition for what the ASB can bring to the sporthorse world. Poeple have no problem talking about their Warmblood/TB mount, but the term "Warmblood/Saddlebred" is met with "ohh.... well.. uh, that's an.. interesting cross..." kind of reaction. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

One thing I did agree with at the beginning of this thread: I think "Saddlebred Sporthorse Registry" might have been a better name, but that's just my opinion... Again, with all the hard-headed, narrow-minded buyers and breeders there are out there, something had to be done to get their attention.

Why don't we all just wait, and watch what happens? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Galileo1998

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:34 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
You know, I've just finished browsing the websites of most of the breeders that have posted on here. I see Warmbloods that are being bred to Paints, TB's, Quarter horses, Arabs, you name it.... And they do it proudly and advertise the corssed foals on their sites.

How do these same people turn around and act so shocked and disgusted when the suggestion is made of crossing Saddlebreds to Warmbloods?
Surely you can't claim that Paints and Quarter horses were bred for the FEI disciplines...?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lianne - you must be better at this searching thing than I am - you comment got me curious and I did a search - I couldn't get onto pintofoals site from work but other than that one - this is what I found http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
QuoVadis - Warmblood and Thoroughbred broodmares
HFSH - Warmblood and Thoroughbred mares
Showjumpers66 - Warmbloods
Fairview - Warmbloods and Thoroughbred mares
Celtic Witch - I don't know about her mares as I don't think she has a website but I know her stallion is a Dutch Warmblood Burgraff x Zeus
Norsire - Warmblood and Thoroughbreds
Sillymommy - again, couldn't find the info in her photoalbum but I believe I read she breeds Thoroughbreds
aurum - he/she does have three Arabian mares as well as many Trakehners, Thoroughbreds and Warmbloods
and
Ashemont - sorry, couldn't find any mare info - but the Warmblood stallion and his foals are attractive http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
That's what I found on my search of "the websites of MOST of the breeders that have posted on here". What breeders websites were you on that you found all the Arabs, Paints and Quarter Horses - and who has a "you name it" mare in their broodmare band?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

*SERAPH*

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:35 AM

Erin Quote--

"If you are a credible organization, then you should have no problems with providing your credentials. Does a potential employer "discredit" you when they ask for a resume or check your references?

Seraph, by dodging these questions, you're making it LOOK like you have something to hide. The fault is not with the people who are merely asking the questions..."

If you were a credible moderator I MIGHT take you seriously! Anyone who wants to read through this thread or TASHR's website will gain much valuable information about the breeding goals stated by TASHR. The only thing I'm attempting to dodge are the grenades being lobbed at me from certain individuals! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:41 AM

Galileo - showjumper66 has the Paint broodmare on their site. As for the QH, can't remember where I saw that, but it might've been from another breeder who posted on a related thread but not here. But you saw the TB's, the Arabs, and now the Paints. These people are breeding "non-traditional" breeds with Warmbloods to get sporthorses, that was my whole argument.

I think you proved my point, thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

fleur

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:42 AM

*seraph*,
would you mind explaining why rather than making a new registry you aren't just (responsibly) breeding asb-warmblood crosses? if you had several generations of sporthorse-conformed horses of that cross that were competitive in the disciplines you are aiming for, i can see eventually proposing a new registry. but even then, why not just call it the 'asb-warmblood sporthorse registry' rather than 'americana' (which i think is a pretty silly name anyway as warmbloods aren't american, nor are baroque breeds).
i also totally agree with whoever said that the breed standards are too fluffy. 'look of eagles' and 'beauty' are not things that can be graded on inspection...

oh and please enlighten me on how the saddlebred stallions in your registry are sporthorses? they are all halter-bred with conformation not conducive to dressage movement or higher-level jumping, imo.

Hephaistion

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:43 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
If you were a credible moderator I MIGHT take you seriously! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now that I take umbrage with. Erin does a super job here and is always fair. Just because you have not liked everything said there is no need to go insulting the person whose time and patience goes into running this forum.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Anyone who wants to read through this thread or TASHR's website will gain much valuable information about the breeding goals stated by TASHR. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly what I said to you above. You are getting a lot of free press here yet you are now shooting yourself in the foot by casting aspersions on the very forum that is allowing you that privilege. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Many people have asked legitmate questions, why not address them more indepth? Many have said they don't understand things on your website even though you keep pointing them in that direction, so why can't you answer them here?

It could be that DMK's purpose of life is only to annoy...

Jasmine

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:51 AM

Seraph, you take us to task for "bashing" your registry, threaten to sue, and then you personally attack Erin's competency?!? Wow. You've got stones.

I would like to see some TAHSR approved foals on the website. I couldn't find any. What do they look like? What mares are they out of? How are they doing in breeding and in-hand classes? These are serious questions, I'm not trying to say anything negative.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

Paula

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:51 AM

Lianne wrote, "Also, nobody is calling these horses warmbloods. Americana Sporthorses, yes. Warmbloods, no."

But they are calling them warmbloods. This is from the TASR home page:

"The Americana Sporthorse Breed Standard (Overview):

The Americana Sport Horse is a warmblood. ...
The Americana's 'look of eagles' and breathtaking presence, combined with keen intelligence, courageous heart, and amiable disposition simply cannot be rivaled by any other Warmblood breed in existence."

This was straight from the first page of the website (italics TASR's own).

IMHO, the website is offensive in and of itself because it make grandious claims unsubstantiated in reality, belittles other breeds, and quite frankly is written in such a manner that makes it laughable. I would have much more respect for the association if they toned it down a bit and based it much more on the reality of what they have at this moment in time. Nowhere on the site was I able to see any examples of any horses actually performing other than a picture of Max on the line presumably from one of the classes he finished last in at Devon - with the statement that "this is the kind of performance we expect and get from even our first generation crosses" So are we to take from this that the registry is striving to achieve last place in a specialty class, not even open against the "big boys"?

Another section of the website that doesn't pass the "giggle" test is the stallion approval qualifications when compared to the "Approved" stallions listed. Frankly I consider it unlikely that many of these stallions achieved even the preapproval goals based upon a look at the websites and information posted.

IMHO if the registry wants to gain respect they need to have somebody take a more fact based and less creative writing approach to their text and standards. They need to actually highlight horses that are achieving even the basic goals of the registry. They need more (read any!) stallions that have actually DONE SOMETHING (remarkable concept here) in sport themselves. I don't see a single stallion with ASB breeding on the website that can make this claim (a few schooling claims, and one breed show claim, but no competition record for stallions in any actual sport horse endeavor (hunters, jumpers, dressage, eventing). Even most of the so called improvement sires of other breeds have little/no competition records.

That said, I actually like ASBs and wish them well in sport. The highest jumps I have ever personally ridden myself were on a very nice ASB mare - she was a prelim eventer and her owner was kind enough to let me take a few lessons - a memory I will cherish forever http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It just pains me to see them represented in this fashion. ASB's should be celebrated for what they are - not made to look rediculous in this manner.

Galileo1998

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:56 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Galileo - showjumper66 has the Paint broodmare on their site. As for the QH, can't remember where I saw that, but it might've been from another breeder who posted on a related thread but not here. But you saw the TB's, the Arabs, and now the Paints. These people are breeding "non-traditional" breeds with Warmbloods to get sporthorses, that was my whole argument.

I think you proved my point, thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I proved your point?? HUH??? I saw a lot of T'Breds - inspected and approved T'Breds, I'm not sure what could ever be considered non-traditional about them. I saw three Arabs on one person's site - again Arabs have been used with SUCCESS to help develop other breeds such as the Selle Francais and Trakehner. I am never at all surprised to see Arab broodmares when a breeder has Trakehners - nothing non traditional about that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
You mentioned Paints (plural) and then pointed me in the direction of ONE. Showjumpers "Paint" while possibly registered that way is 77% Thoroughbred, stands 16.2hh and also has been inspected and approved.

I only posted because I was surprised that you would attempt to mislead people by saying that you had gone through MOST of the sites and found so many unconventional - I don't see whats unconventional at all about T'Breds and Arabs (both have proven track records in Sport Horse breeding) and the Paint in question is hardly a typical Paint mare. And was ONE mare out of several dozen mares that I found on the websites.

hitchinmygetalong

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:57 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:
FionaJ--

"Personally, I know this cross isn't for me."

So why should I waste my time answering your questions? We are not trying to achieve validity in the eyes of people who have no interest. And since you are not interested in what we are producing, why bother to ask questions at all?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seraph, you totally lost all your credibility in MY eyes with this snappy retort. And you REALLY lost it when you decided to take a swing at Erin.

Why was your registry created? In my opinion (take it or leave it),to sell horses that are not marketable (except as the individual brilliant athlete) in any other manner. The Saddlebred people don't want them - not fashionable. The Warmblood people don't want them - not warmbloods. So you go off and create a registry to fit your needs. Why don't you and your group just breed your idea of the "olympic-caliber horse" and sell the individuals on their merits, not their papers? Then, when about 20 years go by and everyone is seeing these horses consistently in the top levels of equine competition, maybe you can create a breed. Good luck with that.

"I am not afraid of storms, for I am learning to sail my ship."
-Louisa May Alcott

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 09:58 AM

Paula - point well taken. I didn't realize that was on the site. My apologies.

I have no opinion on the Warmblood/warmblood issue (i.e. is it a breed or a mixed melting pot perfected over generations of careful selection), so I can't say I agree or disagree with that being on the TASHR website...

Hasn't Kalamino done Prix St Georges at least? Hasn't Rhoquest competed in Dressage up to second level already? I thought I read these things on the american saddlebred sporthorse site, is it not on the TASHR's site as well?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Galileo - again, you've proven my point. People (just like you!) have NO problems with Arabs and Thoroughbreds and Paints (sorry, she's actually a TB/QH cross) being crossed with Warmbloods, as long as it's done carefully and selectively, am I right?

Well, why should it be any different with Saddlebreds, if they've proven themselves to be talented in the sporthorse disciplines? If they're "not ordinary ASB's" just like you said "she's no ordinary Paint"? Hmmm?

I was trying to uncover why this horrible stigma is attached to Saddlebreds.
That being said, I've noticed that people who breed Arabs (purebred ones) for sport do encounter the same hard-headed narrow-minded people as the ASB breeders do...

Such a shame.

[This message was edited by Lianne on Nov. 14, 2003 at 02:07 PM.]

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:09 AM

Oh, and one more thing: stop attaching so much importance to proven performance and scores and such... Didn't you JUST breed to a 3-year old unproven stallion with no competition record simply based on his lineage? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Give these stallions some time. Their owners aren't filthy rich, but are doing the best they can to get their boys out to shows and start them in their sporthorse careers. Al of you know full well that it costs a LOT of money to show and train a horse at high levels, so just because a horse may not be all over the internet with results at every show on the eastern seaboard, doesn't mean they're not phenomenal horses. In time, they will keep getting better and better.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jasmine

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:14 AM

Lianne, no one really cares that these are ASBs. Most (I think) are getting irritated because these horses are not acceptable to the WB registries. So TASHR was formed. At least that's what it looks like. Particularly when the founders won't answer any questions about the horses involved.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

CuriousGeorge

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:16 AM

"The only thing I'm attempting to dodge are the grenades being lobbed at me from certain individuals!"

No one's lobbing grenades at you or attacking you, not even me. People are simply asking questions, and/or correcting misinformation you provide. In my opinion it is rude and bad PR to dismiss people's questions, even if they say they personally aren't interested in your cross. Everyone has friends, even me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif And their friends might be interested in your experiment.

I find it ironic that in one day, Erin and ETBW have been bashed. They are among the most tolerant individuals I know.

Heather

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:21 AM

I have a fabulous weanling who is 5/8 TB, 1/8 Arab, and 1/4 Clydesdale. He is, as much as any weanling can, showing all the qualities I've looked for in amateur CCI* horse. I'm very excited about him.

What is he really? A mutt. A carefully planned mutt, out of two proven performance horses, but he is non-standard-bred sporthorse mutt. I think he's super. His full sibling due next year should be also. But I don't hold any lofty ideals about him being a warmblood anything. I wouldn't call him one if you hung me up by my toes , EVEN THOUGH I selected him, in part, because the combination of TB, Arab, and draft blood has worked incredibly well for the Selle Francais breeders of event horses for many, mnay years. However, that doesn't make him a Selle Francais, or a warmblood.

And in the end, I think that's the issue here. I really don't think most of the people on thsi thread are anti-ASB or even anti the WB/ASB cross (because, clearly, it can work beautifully). But I think the issue is more about starting a registry trying to set these horses up as something they are not. In fact, my guess would be that if TASHR had been started as part of of the ASB organization (like, say, the Appendix registry of the AQHA, or the Anglo registry in the Arab world, etc.) most people wouldn't have even batted an eye.

But, at the end of the day, it doesn't matter what anybody thinks, because if you have a vision and a belief that this is the future, then you can just keep looking straight ahead and follow your dreams.

And, FWIW, one of the neatest horses I've ever known was an ASB, who competed at FEI dressage, through Intermediate in eventing, and packed newbies around lower level events into his late 20s, and taught lessons into his 30's. His name was High Tension, and he was just the best. I've also seen some lovely WB/ASB crosses, so I do think the cross works. I'm just not sure it needs it's own registry.

Good luck!

Galileo1998

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:21 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Oh, and one more thing: stop attaching so much importance to proven performance and scores and such... Didn't you JUST breed to a 3-year old unproven stallion with no competition record simply based on his lineage? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, I bred to a young unproven stallion - who is by Voltaire out of a Samber mare and who was imported by the same people that bred Popeye K. He has since passed his CSHA and CWHBA approvals. I took a bit of a gamble, but only after consulting a lot of people that are a lot more experienced with breeding than I am, going to see the stallion in person and using a PROVEN MARE. She herself had a great career as a hunter, has been inspected and approved CSHA, CWHBA and ATA. She has produced the successful IHF horse Keyword, a two year old that is being kept as an ATA stallion prospect and a stunning weanling filly. It was a bit of a gamble I agree, but much less of one based on the quality of mare I used.

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:22 AM

So, exactly why is this "irritating"?
Actually, my ASB mare was entered into the Auxiliary book of the Canadian Warmbloods Association. She is not a Canadian Warmblood, but at least they're giving her a chance to prove that she can PRODUCE quality Canadian Warmblood babies.
I think that's fair, don't you?
I really don't think that's why this registry was founded. It was not because "these horses can't be registered anywhere else". Maybe its founders truly believe they have something very very special, and it deserves its own registry. Who are you to argue? It's a fledgling registry, nobody should expect results overnight, right?

Janeway

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:23 AM

But Lianne, any well trained horse of any breed can do well at 2nd level dressage. That is not a deciding factor of a breed's worth.

I think this is one where we will have to wait and see what happens. In order to claim that a new registry is creating FEI calibre horses, there must BE horses competing at that level first http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

Paula

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:28 AM

Lianne wrote "Hasn't Kalamino done Prix St Georges at least? Hasn't Rhoquest competed in Dressage up to second level already? I thought I read these things on the american saddlebred sporthorse site, is it not on the TASHR's site as well??"

Taking a gander at the TASR site and Kalamino's own personal website the only thing stated is that he is "training" Prix St Goerges - there is no mention of any competition record at any level other than one breed show suitability win. Training is one thing, getting out in the show ring and confirming is something different... I didn't see any mention at all of Rhoquest on the site. In fact there isn't a single riding picture of any horse in competition at all on the site.

Jasmine

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:30 AM

Lianne, your mare is probably wonderful. You took her to the Canadian Warmblood Association, they liked her, and approved her. Great! Fabulous!

It is irritating to see a whole registry created to breed a horse they call a warmblood, and encompass horses that will not be acceptable to Warmblood registries. That would be like me and my SO starting the Wisconsin Warmblood Registry with his stallion (now a gelding) who did not pass his RPSI approval. Instead, we gelded him, and will try for an approvable stallion that we will breed ourselves.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:33 AM

I agree, we will have to wait and see.

Galileo - she's proven because she has produced a few nice babies that have won in-hand? Good! Then take into account that some of the TASHR stallions also have nice babies on the ground. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Perhaps their owners don't have ready access to "line shows", though.

Jasmine - no no no. She is in the AUXILIARY mare book, she was accepted sight unseen. She is not a very fluid mover, and would probably have not passed had she been inspected. But she is conformationally very correct, sound and solid as a rock, and a very athletic jumper. I've jumped 3'6" lines (not courses, but grids and diagonals, to be totally honest here!!), and she free-jumped over four feet easily. She stands a hair under 15.2.
Just because she's a not a pretty mover, doesn't mean I don't think she has tons to offer in a breeding program. I just wouldn't breed her to get a Hunter, is all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Galileo1998

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:46 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Galileo - she's proven because she has produced a few nice babies that have won in-hand? Good! Then take into account that some of the TASHR stallions also have nice babies on the ground. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Perhaps their owners don't have ready access to "line shows", though.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lianne, selective reading again, did you miss the bit where I mentioned her A Hunter show career - which she did after running over thirty times and retiring sound? Or was it the inspected and approved by the CSHA, CWHBA and ATA that you failed to notice? And as Keyword is only three, the stallion prospect is two and the other is a weanling I wouldn't have expected them to do much more http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Jasmine

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:49 AM

Really, TASHR supporters. What have the TASHR horses done? Babies, stallions, mares, geldings, whatever. I find it hard to believe that NO ONE has access to in hand shows. We already know that one of the stallions went to Devon and didn't do extreemly well. Anyone else???????

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 10:50 AM

And again... Rhoquest has "shown" in Dressage (on the equivalent of the A circuit, I think), and now has nice babies on the ground that look very promising.

Don't you see what I'm getting at? Everyone's standards are going to be different. Some people who only breed State Premium mares and Keur mares might sneer at the thought of you using an off the track TB who had a hunter career at some point, but I think she's probably a fabulous broodmare, I'm on your side here, Galileo, but I find there's a double-standard going on here...

Give these boys a chance! If you don't agree with there being a registry for this, fine, but don't go discrediting the horses that are involved in it, there's no need for that kind of cattiness (not referring to you, Galileo).

Also, many accomplished show-horses have failed to reproduce themselves. And other horses who didn't get to have much of a show career, for whatever reason, proved themselves to be nice sires.

As a final note, to me, proven competitor is most definitely NOT synonymous with proven broodmare or stallion. To have a horse that is both is great, but you don't automatically get one from the other... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[This message was edited by Lianne on Nov. 14, 2003 at 03:04 PM.]

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 11:12 AM

Jasmine - Kalamino went to Devon as a 4-year old and won his Dressage suitability class.

Jasmine

Nov. 14, 2003, 11:17 AM

Great! Kalamino is one. I, too, agree that performer does not equal proven stallion. That's why I keep asking for foals' records. There don't seem to be any that I can find, or that anyone is willing to share.

I'm not trying to bash these stallions. I do think that if this registry is for real, they should post offspring and records on the website. At least until they become as established and recognizable as the Warmblood registries.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 11:21 AM

If the owners of the TASHR babies don't make the effort of taking them out and showing them, then there will be no results to post. Jen and Tawna can only do so much, and the people who breed the babies and then sell them can't control what the new owners will or will not do with them. And let's face it, some people just want a future riding horse, and couldn't care LESS about whether it does well in-hand.

Jasmine

Nov. 14, 2003, 11:22 AM

Well, if no one is showing these horses, how can they be "olympic calliber"?

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

equestrielle

Nov. 14, 2003, 11:26 AM

After reading this whole thread (wow!) my mind kept wandering to the National Show Horse registry....Arab and Saddlebred. As I recall, the National Show Horse was started by Gene LeCroix, a prominent Arab trainer that liked the cross and wanted to market it as a "breed," or whatever it was called in those days. It really caught on, in the Arab show ring, anyway, as the cross really did make Arabian looking SBs. That's about all I know about them. I wonder if anyone shows a NSH in a sporthorse discipline?

I think new registries pop up to add legitimation to a cross or type, which it does in a practical sense. Some sort of labeling as to what something is always works better from a marketiung standpoint -- hence all the "warmblood" arguments and what the term means. "Warmblood" is a very handy label that does have implications at the present time of class, money, and athleticism to do the upper levels of sport in any given horse described as such. It seems though that its liberal application to many types of horses bred in the states today has made it less precise than a few years ago. But language is like that -- so when I see the term warmblood I want to take a closer look to see exactly what it means to the person using it.

I would have liked to heard more specific things from the registry representatives about their horses, and less defensiveness. I looked into saddlebreds as dressage horses a couple of years ago, and I agree it's hard to find that old type of horse without searching a lot harder than I did. They are wonderful horses. It's been an interesting thread, and I have learned something. IMO I think the founders need to add more specific breed type that differentiates from the normal saddlebred type, but maybe they "know it when they see it."

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 14, 2003, 11:31 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>some people just want a future riding horse, and couldn't care LESS about whether it does well in-hand <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But, again, without at least certifiable inspections of mares (more than half of the equation to many) and performance data on the offspring, how can they expect to have a viable registry?

What happened to the stated goal of Olympic Caliber horses?

Individuals breeding their ASB to a warmblood (or vice-versa) to get their own riding horse exists already. We are back to the need for the "cachet" of registration papers, papers which mean nothing without performance to attach.

That is the downside of thoroughbreds. Two registered parents and the foal is eligible for papers. I would love to see inspections or performance requirements along with that for a "special" book. It would eliminate so many people breeding failed sons of great stallions to claiming race winning mares in hopes of getting the next Skip Away or Exterminator.

There are too many substandard horses going to the killers as it is. Breed for the best if you want to be considered responsible, especially if you wish to be taken seriously in the difficult endeavor of starting up a new registry.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

caffeinated

Nov. 14, 2003, 11:32 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by equestrielle:
As I recall, the National Show Horse was started by Gene LeCroix, a prominent Arab trainer that liked the cross and wanted to market it as a "breed," or whatever it was called in those days. It really caught on, in the Arab show ring, anyway, as the cross really did make Arabian looking SBs. That's about all I know about them. I wonder if anyone shows a NSH in a sporthorse discipline?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a friend who has a young NSH that's showing some potential to have a sporthorse career, though at three he hasn't been shown yet (and actually hasn't really had a lot of riding time or serious training yet either). I'll get back to you on that when he starts getting shown!

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

equestrielle

Nov. 14, 2003, 11:36 AM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
[QUOTE]

That is the downside of thoroughbreds. Two registered parents and the foal is eligible for papers. I would love to see inspections or performance requirements along with that for a "special" book. It would eliminate so many people breeding failed sons of great stallions to claiming race winning mares in hopes of getting the next Skip Away or Exterminator.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That is one of the best comments I have read all day.

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 11:36 AM

well said, equestrielle...
Maybe we DO need more input from SERAPH and Tawna.. (where is Tawna??).. It's hard not to get defensive about what we feel passionately about, I think we're all guilty of doing it at some point.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

As for the criteria people have quoted and snickered at "look of eagles", and such... if you've never owned and loved a Saddlebred, then no, you wouldn't understand.
When my WB/TB filly and my ASB mare look at me with their ears pricked (they're in adjoining stalls), I see a big difference in the look. Filly is just happy to see me, but my mare has an electricity about her that is somehow different. An alertness and poise that my filly just doesn't have.. it's hard to explain it any better than that.

But I agree that this should not form the basis of a new breed, it's just the icing on the cake, if you will.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Did that make any sense?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 14, 2003, 12:32 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR> Two registered parents and the foal is eligible for papers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Equestrielle and Lianne - isn't that EXACTLY what TASHR is promising? No documentation, no performance records, no serious information about maternal lines, just a lot of fluff talk about being easily recognizable, proud, look of eagles, etc. It seems to me that they are taking ANY ASB and Warmblood that agrees to participate and giving out registry approval.

There is quite a difference in the look I get from my three as well.

The blind pony is on tiptoe, tail raised and a quiver with excitement upon my arrival. My wonderful TB gelding has a calm and gentlemanly demeanor, while his TB filly half sister has sheer electricity in her every movement.

I imagine that I would notice these very differences walking down the aisle at a local lesson barn as well. Not to mention the incredible energy and emotion present in a field of thoroughbred yearlings at large.

Enough to make me love them? Yes, most definately. "A certian look" enough to found a new registry? No way.

I would put my gelding over my filly in a heartbeat when it comes to potential for performance. AS nifty and electric as she looks, you can't ride the attitude. You can mold it and train it and hope that it works out for you in the end.

As much as I love my horses, my colt got gelded. He wasn't breeding material. No matter how he performs, his conformation wasn't good enough. I have high hopes for him but his gene pool won't be passed along.

My filly will have to perform to beat the band in order for me to consider breeding her, and she is built nice but small. It would be HER performance that decides whether or not to breed her. Then I would pick a sire with a record of performance and the ability to pass on the type that I want out of my mare.

TASHR needs documentation on the performance of it's sires, DAMS and foals for several years before having a hope of credibility in the sport horse world. Until then, any sales will be from either extremely hopeful people able to take the gamble or those who are simply uneducated and sold a piece of paper with names on it.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 12:43 PM

Why would they have to be "uneducated" to buy a horse registered with TASHR, Wings? That seems like a very negative and derogatory comment.

You're right that all these horses will have to prove themselves before being taken seriously, I'm sure SERAPH and Tawna know that. But everything has to have a beginning, a starting point. When some Warmblood breeders decided recently to start breeding more for the Hunters, not many people had a problem with that. Nobody was crying "why would you want to reinvent the wheel, we already HAVE the perfect Hunter - it's called a Thoroughbred".
Negative attitudes are what make us look like snobs to the outside world. If you don't agree with something, fine. But don't insult the registry by insinuating that the only people who buy its horses are either clueless or naive.

And from what I understood on their site, theye are accepting applications for registration fairly liberally FOR THE TIME BEING, but they will enforce inspection and selection processes in the future.
Did I read that wrong? I could've sworn I read stuff about approval processes...

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 14, 2003, 12:56 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>When some Warmblood breeders decided recently to start breeding more for the Hunters, not many people had a problem with that. Nobody was crying "why would you want to reinvent the wheel, we already HAVE the perfect Hunter - it's called a Thoroughbred".
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You just may want to check with the IHF people about that, they have been busting butt to get the concept of IHF off the ground and it is doing well now, several years past the concept stage. That and check with the "A" rated shows such as Warrenton, Upperville Colt and Horse Show and Devon for just how long they have held Non-TB hunter breeding classes before making that statement. A good hunter is a good hunter, no matter the bloodlines. Performance is what counts.

Additionally, the warmblood and warmblood cross breeders were and are proud of their horses pedigrees as they exist and are not trying to sell them as a "new" twist on the package.

I have not heard of Just The Best or Alla Czar being marketed as the foundation of a "NEW" registry. Popeye K's owners seem to be quite happy with him as he is and not into marketing him as other than the fabulous horse he is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Nov. 14, 2003 at 05:29 PM.]

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 01:02 PM

*sigh* I'm not talking about breeding classes, I'm talking about the Open hunter shows, the actual competitions. I certainly hope the Warmblood breeders weren't breeding to get "hunter suitability class winners", rather than actual "hunter competitors". I would think the latter would be sliiightly more important, no?

So you don't agree with starting a registry for this cross, that's fine, that's your prerogative. But please, no nasty comments about the "future" or the "potential" of its horses. Time will tell. Let's all just wait and see, pleeease!!! Give them the benefit of the doubt! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 14, 2003, 01:11 PM

You must be missing out completely on the basis of the IHF to make such statements.

There are so many successful Warmblood and TB/Warmblood crosses in the hunter divisions that the classes are haveing to instute selective, limited entries.

But, I recall, several pages ago, I was castigated for mentioning Hunter breeding in regard to TASHR, and I only brought it up as a place for any of the TASHR offspring who are obviously far too young to be competing at an upper level in dressage or eventing to begin to show their talents.

I certianly haven't heard of any Hunter person saying that warmbloods weren't good enough to compete against TB's. Obviously, they are in spades. Competing and winning with verifiable results, too.

Now, where are those TASHR performance figures? The info on the dams? Offspring? It doesn't exist because the friggin TASHR idea hasn't been around long enough to have that information and the TASHR founders are too busy shouting to the world that their idea is the cat's meow instead of building the very data and experience that will be needed for their registry to be taken seriously.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 14, 2003, 01:22 PM

I have a brilliant idea!

Kenny Wheeler, owner of the legendary Cismont Manor Farm (Home of Champion Hunters and Saddlebreds!) should be asked his opinion on warmbloods vs thoroughbreds as hunters and the viability of saddlebred/warmblood crosses as deserving of a new crossbred registry! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

In all seriousness, the above was written tongue in cheek, but, wouldn't articles by Kenny Wheeler in the COTH on hunters, sport horses, saddlebreds and in hand showing be a fabulous series?

What a wealth of wisdom he could impart. I would take bets that he would say A good horse is a good horse. Put it best to work where it can excell.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

Little Indian

Nov. 14, 2003, 01:41 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
It's not the crosses in themselves, it is the seemingly desperate need to have some claim to being other than a cross.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

okay i lied. i have been biting my tounge as to not reply again but here it goes. What do you guys think of the Hispan Arabe registy AND association of north america? aren't they doing the same? crossing the arab with the andalusian to create a breed? what about the Azteca? you cross the andy with the quarter horse and you can continue crossing them to breed "up the levels" . or the Iberian warmblood...the cross between a TB/Andy....speeking of TB/Andy's there are MANY of them registerd AND branded Rhinlander. National Show Horse - a 'breed' that was initially a Saddlebred/Arab cross. or the "welara" the welsh/arab. or the Spanish Norman...an andy/percheron primarly suited for the jousting ring. why is it that these associations/registerys all seem to be pretty well off and not one person seems to complain about them? Does everybody just think that all the european breeds just sprung out of nowhere? they ALL have a lot of mixed heritage way far back (yes...i know you all know this) they were started hundreds of years ago with a goal and look what the trak. has produced? STUNNING animals! what about the Selle Francias? also stunning animals. My personal opinion is that everybody not e-mailing the registry and asking them your questions, doesn't want to find out and just wants to have something to complain over. I have also seen many posts about the over-all goal of the registry. say it with me, E-MAIL THEM and get your anwser!
and a simple harmless (i hope) question for erin....
why is it that *SEPRAH* cannot defend HER registry when a certian stallion is discussed unfairly and the owner of that horse can come and defend him? it seems like a double standard to me. but maybe there is something that I am missing

Everythingbutwings

Nov. 14, 2003, 02:09 PM

I actually have input on the Andalusian/Azteca/Iberian crosses.

First of all, the IAHLA has registry options for part bred Andalusians. There are classes in IAHLA recognized shows for these horses, which outnumber greatly the pure Andys in the western hemisphere.

The Azteca and Iberian registries have been around for more than a few months and have documented performance records as well as standards for their registry.

I was fortunate enough to grow up (not only me but my sisters, my son and my neice) taking lessons on direct offspring of Estudiante #54, one of the very first pure andalusian sires in the US.

Right off the bat, almost all of Estudiante's male offspring were gelded. Only a very few were kept whole, one of which is half tb half andy and has shown (as well as his offspring) successfully in breed as well as open shows.

This half bred andy's son is the sire of Double Dose, who was featured in last year's COTH junior issue as an outstanding eventer. She is sadly deceased but can be seen (as well as her performance records verified) by going to Tamarack Stables Rivers Edge Farm (http://www.tamarackstables.com) and clicking on "Our Horses" and choosing "Double Dose"

And no, this isn't advertising as DD is dead and was sold long ago and her sire, Cisco's Kid, doesn't stand at TSRE, nor are there any of his get there for sale!

The Andy/TB and Andy/QH (DD had a/tb for a sire and a/qh for a dam) crosses are well documented and have been around for at least the past 30 years. Ever since the first breeding quality Andalusians were imported to the US and bred to the available mares here.

What the Azteca and Iberian registry's have done is to be more selective about the dam side stock and to be more choosy over the first mares that were bred. I wish I had one of those crosses and am darned jealous of Periwinkle Blue for her new filly!

That many years of selective breeding has given the Andy/Azteca and Iberian breeders a wealth of matings to choose their future breeding stock from.

Erin mentioned the sad shame that the ASB sport horses and ASB crosses are not supported by their own breed registry. Perhaps if that were so, a situation similar to that of the Andalusian world would exist.

The Andy people know that they NEED the other disciplines and part breds to support their association. They work at keeping these breeders within the scope of their registry and are supportive of the ones who go on to open competition.

I think that they saw with open eyes the success that the Trakhener, Anglo Arab and warmblood registries had with selective introduction and part bred registering.

The main difference between TASHR and the vehement stance that *SERAPH* has taken and the Azteca/Iberian and Spanish Norman is the presence in the latter of verifiable performance data over many generations. That and the problem that many Andalusian owners had literally no available pure breeding stock (similar to *SERAPH*s stated desire to bring back the old ASB lines).

Breeders took to crossing the Andy they desired with the TB, QH and percheron quality mares that they had. Then, when the crosses worked, they refined them into specific types.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Nov. 14, 2003 at 06:18 PM.]

Lianne

Nov. 14, 2003, 02:22 PM

Everythingbutwings - so these registries have been around for 30 years, and that's what makes them "acceptable" to you? So, you're saying that Jen and Tawna should go into hiding, tell nobody about their underground breeding ventures, and then pop up thirty or forty years from now and say "TADAA! Look what we did!" ???

Please. Just because it's new, doesn't mean it's a joke. Every registry is "new" when it is first formed, right???

And yes, shame on the ASHA for shunning the non-show type ASB's.

Little Indian

Nov. 14, 2003, 02:33 PM

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote">quote:<HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:

Breeders took to crossing the Andy they desired with the TB, QH and percheron quality mares that they had. Then, when the crosses worked, they refined them into specific types.

[This message was edited by Everythingbutwings on Nov. 14, 2003 at 06:18 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

THIS IS MY POINT! all of the half andy registrys had to start out somewhere and with that they gained respect AFTER a lot of the horses bred had been proven, yes? This registry is fairly new and they ARE working on refining them into specific types. I have talked with somebody associated with the registry and I am saying what i have interpreted.
and i have shown at the andy shows with Indy (who is half arab aswell) and was placed UNDERNEATH an Azteca in the hunter under saddle class whose head was straight up in the air, litterly ran into my pony's butt twice (once in front of the judge) yet it was first and i was second. same happened with the exact same horse in the dressage suit. class. i should also ad that i was told to look out for this rider/horse combo as they were known to do this sort of thing. i tried to look out, but really now, if you are showing your horse at that level of a horse show, shouldn't you be able to control it in a FLAT CLASS? it didn't help that in the english divisons i was showing in, there were at most 3 horses in there, including halter. now, i am not being a sore loser but if the andy world (which i am proud to be apart of) would have a hunter judge judge all of their hunter classes, and a dressage judge (which they did have...they had two but they were in the dressage courts set up) judge the classes (ie dressage judge for dressage suit as well as the tests) maybe this outcome would have been differnet. and when i attempted to go ask the judge (mind you this is after i was done for the day and she was sitting down) why she had placed us under the horse who ran into me twice on two different occasions, she simply smiled and ignored me. this being said, the only andy show i will attend and show in is the fiesta of the spanish horse because money is donated to cancer research,
and i am not sure who is was who had the Sultan horses that placed above max at Devon... whoever you are you said that the Sultan horses MATURE FASTER than the average saddlebred. MY POINT AGAIN-I have not looked at Max's pedigree so i do not know for sure...but if i am getting this right, he is NOT related to a sultan horse meaning that he would NOT mature as fast as your horses that placed above him at Devon....also because he is half warmblood making him mature slower. tell me. do you honestly believe that a horse should NOT be a bit but high during a growth spurt? IF not, how in the world do you think they even out? do you think that every single bone in that horse's body is going to grow at the same exact time?? because I think not. this all just really irks the hell out of me

[This message was edited by Little Indian on Nov. 14, 2003 at 06:43 PM.]

[This message was edited by Little Indian on Nov. 14, 2003 at 06:49 PM.]