new registry? confused...

[Everythingbutwings]

Sigh, No, Lianne, it isn't just that they have been breeding their crosses for 30 years or more. It is that those crosses have verifiable and documented performance PROOF of their validity.

Those crosses are not just supposed to work on paper and in the hearts of their breeders, the darned well do work and have proof of it.

The concept of the TASHR cross may very well work but it is sure enough going to take a long time to get results that can carry enough weight to support the crowing that the founders are doing right now.

Keep the data, prove the bloodlines and crosses, show the results in performance, then you have a viable registry. Until then it is the North American Part Bred Sport Horse Hopeful Registry NAPBSHH. Not much different from the one a few years ago where you could send in $30 along with your horse's name and description and get a pretty pedigree printout.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[ASB Stars]

WOw ! I have been truly touched by the kind comments- and fascinated by this entire thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif!

First- regarding the style of the photos and advertisements of the ASB stallions on TASHR's website- this is the typical way that these horses are photographed and discussed. Remember that these ads are designed for people looking for "the peacock of the show ring" so the knee action focus and conformation shots showing a flat croup (any horse standing like this looks like they have one- trust me) are de rigeur for ASBs. What is cool is that they are thinking outside the box- whether I agree or not- these people are seeing their horses as athletes as well as show horses- which is not always the case with that crowd.

Regarding breeding more horses- period- not specifically any type. As was stated, there are enough horses in the world who need homes. I can't find spots for all of the fabulous ASB prospects I find right now- and it sickens me that they wind up in places where I'd rather not think of them going. I looked at ASBs at a farm near me today, and saw two outstanding dressage prospects (this is NOT an AD)- but- we need to build a market that supports the quality horses we are breeding RIGHT NOW !! I still assert that there are fabulous 100% ASB prospects all over the place. You just have to know where to look. An open minded person can find something that will make your warmblood loving hearts go a fluttering in an ASB for under 10K http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif.

Julie

[wanderlust]

I'll disagree with wings on this one. Hugely NOT a fan of Aztecas. In fact, just don't get the point of the cross. Slightly more tolerant of the Iberian cross. It makes me sick to see people cross Fresians willy-nilly with breeds like quarter horses, drafts, etc. Again, WHAT breed are you trying to improve? And turn it into what? I love Fresians, but AS purebred Fresians. Same thing with Andalusians (although must say that Periwinkle Blue sure got a nice cross).

It is common sense to breed heavier horses to lighter horses or with horses that were used to develop the breed in the first place(i.e. QHxTb, WBxTB, DraftxTB, TrakhenerxArab) to get something lighter. But when you take something very unique and specialized in characteristic and cross it with anything different, you are going to dilute what it is that makes that breed so very special. And you risk ending up with something that isn't very special at all.

So now, you are crossing saddlebreds with warmbloods with the goal of creating a "new" warmblood that will go to the olympics. Well, the warmbloods are already there, in spades. I can't see how (and I'm sure I'll be accused of narrow-mindedness for this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) the saddlebred is going to improve on the current European warmbloods. So then you are going to use the warmbloods to improve the saddlebreds? At which point you may lose the defining characteristics of both.

I just don't see it.

~formerly Master Tally~

[ASB Stars]

OOOOPPPPSSS !!

I forgot to mention that I think that asking Kenny Wheeler if he would comment is a grand idea ! Mrs. Kenneth Wheeler (Sally) who passed away last year was a HUGE ASB show person for years- and the Wheelers own a gelding named Walterways Remember Me who is just unreal- he is the top Junior Five Gaited horse in the country. I'll take him- without a cut tail- as a dressage horse ANY day !!

Julie

[PeriwinkleBlue]

Wanderlust, I'm with you on the Aztecas. Never seen the point of them, myself.
I do like the TB/Andie cross, (as evidenced by my new girl http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif ) because while the pure Andalusians really are absolutely gorgeous specimens, they don't always have the height or build to do upper level dressage, or serious jumping/eventing/whathaveyou. I think that in that case, crossing an Andalusian with a very athletic TB can be a good thing.
But most of the time, Andalusians are just perfect for almost anything - why try to improve the breed? Same goes (as you said) for Friesians. Whoopdedoo - they crossed a Friesian and an Andalusian. So what? So now they can ask for even MORE money for the resulting foal, considering how expensive the parents are! But I honestly don't see how either breed is improved by crossing the two.

And because I never miss a chance to show off... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Here's my Andalusian/TB filly. 16 hands at 17 months old. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

http://www.phototalk.net/photos/data/3358/251arialeft.jpg

[Everythingbutwings]

Periwinkle Blue, make yourself even happier and try to imagine your girl in a couple of years.

Go back to the TSRE site and look up Two Shoes, TB/Andy/Percheron and his half brother, Saddle Shoes, Andy/TB/Perch! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

There is a nice video of Saddle shoes as a foal with his TB/Perch dam.

Saddle Shoes, 1/2 Andy, 1/4 Tb, 1/4 Perch (http://www.tamarackstables.com/2001_colt.html)

Edited to add link http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[*SERAPH*]

ETBW--

First to say that the following horses and registries I appreciate and admire. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Spanish Norman Horse Registry was started by Allan and Linda Hamid in 1991.

Iberian Sporthorse and Warmblood Registry, Inc.
Established 1986.

Iberian Warmblood Registry of America
Established 1998

You state that people had been crossing these horses and then the registries were established. People have been crossing the ASB/Euro WB and the ASB/Andies and the ASB/Friesians for some years now.

You stated we Approve anything of certain blood. Actually,the stallions featured on the TASHR site are not registered TASHR horses; they are FOUNDATION STALLIONS. Only offspring resulting from them (with appropriate percentage of ASB blood),or horses of acceptable blood, can be registered with TASHR. For the resulting offspring to be pre-approved and then approved for breeding, they must be presented at inspections. These inspections are quite extensive and require different levels of performance capability at different ages. For a stallion to become fully breeding approved with TASHR, he must attend 3 inspections and receive passing scores. The stallion must go for full breeding approval by the age of seven. He must be under saddle and perform to a certain level. He also must have 3 offspring registered with TASHR and they must have attended foal inspections and received passing scores.

For mares resulting from Foundation stock or who are of appropriate blood: they must attend and pass foal inspections. They also must attend inspections again at 2 years or better. They must pass conformation/performance tests.They will then be pre-approved for breeding. For full breeding approval, they must produce 1 foal that is registerable with TASHR (Books 1, 2, 3)and this foal must attend breed inspections and pass with sufficient scores.

The first inspections will be held next year.

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:

Negative attitudes are what make us look like snobs to the outside world. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

(coming from far, far outside this world..... )

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[Everythingbutwings]

*SERAPH*, it is good that you have a solid plan in mind. Keep to it and then present your registry. It simply can't exist until it's viability is proven. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Those Andy breeders kept careful records for a long time before going ahead and determining that they had the grounds and basis for a registry.

I not only wish you well but hope that it does work out as I am getting older and creakier by the minute and would look forward to sitting the smooth ride of a part ASB again.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[CuriousGeorge]

Walterway's Remember Me is actually owned by Ceil Wheeler, who is Mr. Wheeler's daughter in law.

Sallie Wheeler had a particular interest in hackney ponies.

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
I don't know what is about Saddlebreds that makes so many people's skin crawl when it is suggested they might have talent for other things besides prancing around with their knees up to their chin. What is at the heart of this distaste? In general, people just don't have the same guttural, negative reaction when confronted with a WB/TB cross. Or a QH/TB cross. Quarter horses were bred for reining. So?? Thoroughbreds were bred for racing. So??
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hm. It's odd how people get their knickers in a knot when people don't know the history of their breed, but then denigrate another without knowing its history.

Quarter horses got their name because they were originally bred to RACE short distances, usually a quarter of a mile. They began to be crossed HUNDREDS OF YEARS AGO with early Thoroughbreds; in fact, the founding sire of the breed is a Thoroughbred -- Janus. It was only when pioneers moved west and began raising cattle that it was discovered that QHs possessed an uncanny cattle sense.

Please, folks, if you want people to listen to your arguments, get your facts straight.

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

[PeriwinkleBlue]

WOW, Wingsie...if she turns out half that nice I will consider myself the luckiest girl alive! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That is a gorgeous horse!

[Albion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>First- regarding the style of the photos and advertisements of the ASB stallions on TASHR's website- this is the typical way that these horses are photographed and discussed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have been following this thread with interest (makes for a nice change of pace from doing the historiography of Cibicue Creek http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif) - but I just wanted to comment on this.

I remember a thread a while back, where someone asked about marketing their Arab stallion to the sporthorse crowd - the owner had a website which featured her very pretty stallion in mostly "Arab-y" (for lack of a better term) poses. The comments that people made are pretty much summed up in: "If you want to market your stallion to the sporthorse crowd, photograph him as a sporthorse, not an Arab halter horse!" I understand that the high knee action & parked out pose may be typical of ASB marketing, but this registry is purporting to support the breeding of sport horses, and their "foundation stallions" ought to show that.

Before anyone accuses me of horrible breed prejudice, my first pony was some sort of Walking Horse cross (he had a tendency to do the running walk when he got nervous, which dressage judges at shows just LOVED! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) & I absolutely adored him. I love the temperment of a lot of the gaited breeds & would like to have a nice ASB of the sport horse type, but come on. If you're marketing these horses as sport horse sires, they should be presented as sport horses themselves - perhaps some of these owners need to see how sporthorse stallion owners (and that includes a myriad of breeds) present their stallions on websites & in ads.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[Everythingbutwings]

The woman who bred him owned Estudiante #54 back in the seventies. He is the result of a small but selective breeding program for over 30 years.

I wish his new owners would send updates on his progress, he is a stunning boy!

Your filly shows the same frame and body type that several of the TSRE andy/tb crosses have. I am jealous of your new girl! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Little Indian:

My personal opinion is that everybody not e-mailing the registry and asking them your questions, doesn't want to find out and just wants to have something to complain over.

...
and a simple harmless (i hope) question for erin....
why is it that *SEPRAH* cannot defend HER registry when a certian stallion is discussed unfairly and the owner of that horse can come and defend him? it seems like a double standard to me. but maybe there is something that I am missing<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Before I answer your question... how would you feel if I responded to this by saying "I'm not willing to address thinly-veiled attempts to discredit the moderation on the BB... if you want an explanation, email me privately"?

As a moderator, I should be able to justify my decisions. A couple of pages ago, Seraph tried to claim that I shut down DBNA and ISR/Old. NA discussions, so I should shut this one down -- and I was perfectly happy to explain why those threads were closed and why this one hasn't been.

Seraph was quite clearly trying to discredit me. Had I not been able to provide a well-thought-out justification for those moderation decisions, she might have had a point. But I quite willingly provided an explanation, in public, for all to see. So why can't Seraph do the same thing?

With regard to your specific question... I'm not sure who or what you're refering to with regard to "a certain stallion." But I certainly have never said that Seraph can't defend her registry. My point all along has been if she or Tawna disagree with what's been posted here, or think that people have the wrong idea about them, they SHOULD post and defend their registry. That's the whole point of having an open discussion... everyone gets to throw their two cents in.

So Seraph is perfectly welcome to defend the registry. What she's NOT welcome to do is to have opinions about her registry that she doesn't like removed from the BB.

Edited to add that I'm glad to see Seraph DID provide a detailed answer to some of the questions that have been asked. Excellent... see, it wasn't that hard! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Lianne]

*sigh* somebody already corrected me about the Quarter Horses, Beezer, you're a little late in the game. So fine, they were bred to be quarter mile racers. That obviously is completely different, so that must be why they're bred to Thoroughbreds to produce nice hunters and jumpers.. because they were "quarter mile" racers. Yup yup. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Whether they were bred to be reining horses or quarter mile racers, BEEZER, the point remains the same: they were not originally intended for the Drassage/Hunter/Jumper arenas. And yet nobody balks at the idea of an appendix QH in these disciplines these days, at least nobody around MY neck of the woods does.

[*SERAPH*]

Albion Quote--

"If you want to market your stallion to the sporthorse crowd, photograph him as a sporthorse, not an Arab halter horse!" I understand that the high knee action & parked out pose may be typical of ASB marketing, but this registry is purporting to support the breeding of sport horses, and their "foundation stallions" ought to show that."

We're working on that! LOL! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The difficulty lies in the entirely different culture in the ASB gaited world. We do send examples of sporthorse poses to our stallion owners but old habits die hard. They do try to do what we ask. We have to give them a little leeway. That being said, we are pleased by the great enthusiasm of these ASB stallion owners to participate in our sporthorse breeding program.

One other thing to add; we ARE breeding purebred ASB's. We just believe that our goals are significantly different, as well as our breeding program (inspection processes to establish consistant ASB sporthorse type and performance) than the ASHA's. These horses can be dual registered, of course.

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
*sigh* somebody already corrected me about the Quarter Horses, Beezer, you're a little late in the game. So fine, they were bred to be quarter mile racers. That obviously is completely different, so that must be why they're bred to Thoroughbreds to produce nice hunters and jumpers.. because they were "quarter mile" racers. Yup yup. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Whether they were bred to be reining horses or quarter mile racers, BEEZER, the point remains the same: they were not originally intended for the Drassage/Hunter/Jumper arenas. And yet nobody balks at the idea of an appendix QH in these disciplines these days, at least nobody around MY neck of the woods does.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ummm, first, the racing type quarter horses that are typically crossed with TBs are fairly different in conformation than the halter and cow horses. In fact, I've run across quite a few that I thought were TBs. So yeah, the type of horse that is bred to TBs to make the nice appendix crosses is not typically the type that excels at chasing cows. On top of that, the quarter horse is firmly rooted in TB blood, so it makes sense to cross the two in order to lighten up and give height and movement to the quarterhorse. In turn, the TB gets more bone and usually a better brain. THAT is why they are crossed. There is a VERY CLEAR idea of what the outcome will be.

TBs weren't originally intended for the dressage/hunter/jumper arena, either. Nor, really, was anything. Including the Warmblood and the Baroque breeds (for dressage) until they stopped needing cavalry horses. So what is your point?

~formerly Master Tally~

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Galileo - showjumper66 has the Paint broodmare on their site. As for the QH, can't remember where I saw that, but it might've been from another breeder who posted on a related thread but not here. But you saw the TB's, the Arabs, and now the Paints. These people are breeding "non-traditional" breeds with Warmbloods to get sporthorses, that was my whole argument.

I think you proved my point, thanks! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'll have to say that what fired me up was not the fact that people are crossing ASB with warmbloods at all ... it was the website. When I visited the website, I saw ASHA stallions that do not look like sporthorses and then a wide variety of other breeds - Friesian, Andalusian, Lipizzaner, Lusitano, and the Warmbloods (Dutch, Holsteiner, Oldenburg, and Hannoverian). My next leap was to assume that the registry was supporting crosses amongst all these breeds together intermeshed ... I was seeing Friesian/Lipizzaner/ASB crosses in my head!

I am sorry if no one agrees with me, but I am all for EVOLVING the breeds individually into sporthorses while maintaining those qualities that make them unique. I am not against a single generation cross as long as it is done with knowledge and the resultant cross is bred back to one of the parent lines.

I wish everyone the best of luck with their foaling ventures!

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
TBs weren't originally intended for the dressage/hunter/jumper arena, either. Nor, really, was anything. Including the Warmblood and the Baroque breeds (for dressage) until they stopped needing cavalry horses. So what is your point?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think (and please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, Lianne) the point she's trying to make is that people typically turn their noses up at ASB crosses as sport horses, but QH or Paint or Arab crosses might not get the same distasteful reaction...

I'll fully admit that if I were scanning through horse-for-sale ads looking for my next eventing or dressage prospect, I would probably wrinkle my nose at an ad for an ASB cross and skip right over it. Why? Because I'm admittedly unfamiliar with the breed, and the little I do know about it makes me think it wouldn't really be what I'm looking for.

Is that necessarily a logical conclusion? Nope, of course not. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif But it would still be my gut reaction, if I didn't have enough information to know otherwise. I think it's just because ASBs look so completely different than most of the typical sport horse breeds, especially when all dolled up for show.

One of the nice things about boards like this is that with the large audience, you DO have a smattering of people who have experience with various breeds... they can work to change the erroneous stereotypes that are out there, and to clue people into some of the good traits that these less-traditional sport horse breeds have that people might not be aware of.

There was a thread not too long ago that hitchinmygetalong brought to my attention...

Saddleseat/Morgan people...please help me understand my neighbor (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?q=Y&a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=5566064631&m=34060376&p=1)

It was a really interesting discussion about breeds and horsekeeping practices that aren't part of the typical H/Jer/dressager/eventer experience, and was really informative.

Just goes to show how putting knee-jerk defensiveness aside can lead to some really excellent discussions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Beezer]

I was going to reply, Lianne, but wanderlust beat me to it. And since you don't like the same point made twice, LIANNE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif , I won't make it again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

As for those crosses of WBs and ASBs that are succeeding in dressage or eventing or show jumping, GREAT. I'm glad for every horse that is successful and happy at its job. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif But that is not the point, is it? Because as many of us have said, individuals of any breed or any cross can be successful at a discipline they are not normally associated with; only generations of success at that same discipline (i.e. appendix QHs in the h/sj/d/e http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) will prove whether it's more than a fluke. And that applies to any breed or cross, no matter how much some folks on this thread would accuse others of ASB bashing (which no one here has).

Personally, I wouldn't cross a Poodle with a Sheltie in hopes of producing a maintenance-free, short-haired dog, but if someone else wants to and has a plan for finding those dogs homes and jobs, it's their checkbooks, not mine. And if they beat me in the ring or obedience trial or grooming competition, it's my loss, not theirs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

[Lianne]

That's okay, Beezer, Erin kindly explained my post very well. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Everythingbutwings]

If someone would come up with a breeding cross of a horse that, like a poodle, didn't shed, then many of us would be numping on the bandwagon to have one! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Think of it, we are already clipping away like banshees, no matter the breed or location. Cross a horse of any breed with a poodle for the best characteristics of each and you have a horse that is trained to potty in appropriate corners, doesn't lose it's coat and understands "NO" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Everythingbutwings:
That is the downside of thoroughbreds. Two registered parents and the foal is eligible for papers. I would love to see inspections or performance requirements along with that for a "special" book. It would eliminate so many people breeding failed sons of great stallions to claiming race winning mares in hopes of getting the next Skip Away or Exterminator.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, in theory, I agree with you. The only thing wrong with the theory is that when the rubber hits the road it doesn't always work. If superior conformation and running ability were all it took to produce a winner, we could all be Calumet in the 50's! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

But the books are full of horses who have no significant race record and made a hug impact on the breed. Check out Danzig's race (and sire) record... And when Slew came around we were all sure that a horse by nothin' out of nothing could not win even one race of the Triple Crown. Then we were sure he couldn't possibly sire quality horses. Then we worshipped at the alter of Landaluce for too brief of a time.

And the reverse is true, otherwise Alysheba might still be standing in this country and Ferdinand wouldn't have met his sad fate.

If preferred books/inspections based on a subjective standard meant that breeders (both well informed and those without a clue) would not end up with a POS, then I would see a whole lot less POS WBs out there.

As it happens, there are a lot of poor examples of all breeds, even from awesome crosses (failed full brothers abound everywhere). All you can say is that a preferred book attempts to give people some guidance on what a sire/dam is likely to sire/produce, given his history, performance record and available offspring in an area where in depth stats are lacking and/or the discipline has an element of subjectivity. But the JC and market forces already do that with a wealth of stats on past performance, free weight handicaps, lifetime, annual and freshman/2nd year sire reports, sales and starts stats. There is more statistical information to make an informed choice in TB breeding than just about any breeding endeavor out there. But the person who breeds his POS mare to a POS stallion isn't doing it because he consciously rejected the Storm Cat option. He is doing it because it's America and he can pretty much do as he pleases. Knowing the POS stallion didn't make a preferred book won't change his mind. He wants to breed his no account filly and dream. Short of taking that right away from him, the practice will continue.

As for this whole TASHR registry, I agree with the person (Jair?) who commented on the various phenotypes represented in the stallion list. That was the first thing that caight my eye as a "whaaaa?" moment. As far as I know, the history of most succesful registries was to start with individuals with a proven track record, then try to attract similar success stories with similar (desirable) phenotypes so as to more quickly and efficiently reproduce the desired type. Even then it is (to quote Lord Rummy) a long hard slog to reach the point where most of the time a consistant type is reproduced. Start with a mixed bag of body types, no real proof the body types can do the job other than a deep and abiding faith, and the slog gets really hard, if not impossible.

It could be that the purpose of your life is only to serve as a warning to others...

[Beezer]

I'm glad she did, Lianne, because I think everyone here was saying pretty much the same thing as Erin did in translating your post. Perhaps now it's clearer? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Ah, Wingsie, just think of it! And then we could cross it with one of those tail-less cats! Maybe we'd get lucky and it wouldn't have a mane, either! That way, we wouldn't have to pay braiders. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

[showjumpers66]

Hey, my foals would really miss their chew toys (mama's tail). How about that hairless cat ... (Spinx?)? Then we can just vacuum our horses!

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[Heidi]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If someone would come up with a breeding cross of a horse that, like a poodle, didn't shed, then many of us would be numping on the bandwagon to have one! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Step away from the bandwagon, Wingsy, you'll get slivers if you try to nump it. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Can I just concur that no one, certainly not I, has an issue with ASB crosses, my butt/head/spleen has been saved countless times by an ASB X, but I do think the root of the contention is the claim that somehow these unproven stallions, with little to no performance record, will produce FEI calibre, competitive horses. That's not only fatuous - it's really wishful.

[showjumpers66]

Rah rah, Heidi!

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[Lianne]

*sigh* come on people. The ultimate GOAL is to produce Olympic calibre horses, nobody is saying that the first crop of this registry is Olympics-bound, come on! It will take time, careful selective breeding, culling, training, etc etc, just like with ANY registry...

Nobody is coming on here claiming all these horses are magic and are all FEI horses in disguise. Stop putting words in their mouths.

[Galileo1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by *SERAPH*:

For the resulting offspring to be pre-approved and then approved for breeding, they must be presented at inspections. These inspections are quite extensive and require different levels of performance capability at different ages. For a stallion to become fully breeding approved with TASHR, he must attend 3 inspections and receive passing scores. The stallion must go for full breeding approval by the age of seven. He must be under saddle and perform to a certain level. He also must have 3 offspring registered with TASHR and they must have attended foal inspections and received passing scores.

For mares resulting from Foundation stock or who are of appropriate blood: they must attend and pass foal inspections. They also must attend inspections again at 2 years or better. They must pass conformation/performance tests.They will then be pre-approved for breeding. For full breeding approval, they must produce 1 foal that is registerable with TASHR (Books 1, 2, 3)and this foal must attend breed inspections and pass with sufficient scores.

The first inspections will be held next year.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SERAPH - do you have a plan in place yet as to who is going to be doing these inspections and grading/passing/failing the resulting offspring? Thanks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Paula]

Okay I have a question - who evaluated and decided which horses should be considered "Foundation" stock for the registry? What kind of credentials do these individuals have to be evaluating sporthorse type? Who is going to be performing these inspections, how were they chosen, and what are their credentials? If you start with foundation stock that haven't met approval standards, how do you ecpect to use them to "improve" the breed to meet these approval expectations? What was the basis for qualification as "Foundation" stock?

[CuriousGeorge]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif I have long since given up on trying to reason with many of you people. However...

Everythingbutwings said NUMP! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Does that mean we get to talk about peaches? And cantaloupes?

[Beezer]

CHOCOLATE!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

[Heidi]

That's the point, Lianne.

[QUOTE]The ultimate GOAL is to produce Olympic calibre horses, nobody is saying that the first crop of this registry is Olympics-bound, come on! It will take time, careful selective breeding, culling, training, etc etc, just like with ANY registry...[QUOTE]

Who, breeder, owner, trainer, rider, doesn't hope and wish for a breed/horse to excel to that level? On the other hand, who'd, out of the gate, establish a new registry featuring unconventional stallions with little to no performance records -- and make such claims?

I think what distinguishes horsepeople is our great willingness to hope, aspire, dream - at such great expense; at such personal, emotional, financial sacrifice. When I see a claim such as the one made, on their very own website, I am discomfited by the sense that this very quality, which makes us so very unique and special, is being exploited.

Most horses, irrespective of breed and breeding, aren't FEI worthy. But most registries do have stallions and mares who have distinguished themselves competitively. At the very least, start with that basic foundation - and then build, and slowly strive to gain the crediblilty to make such lofty claims.

I'd also suggest, if the very owners of the stallions do not understand the market for sporthorses well enough to pose their horses to their eventual market, wouldn't your time be better invested in educating your constituency of the market's expectations?

[Lianne]

"I'd also suggest, if the very owners of the stallions do not understand the market for sporthorses well enough to pose their horses to their eventual market, wouldn't your time be better invested in educating your constituency of the market's expectations?"

Absolutely - they're working on it!!!

[Medievalist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif I have long since given up on trying to reason with many of you people. However...

Everythingbutwings said NUMP! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Does that mean we get to talk about peaches? And cantaloupes?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well heidi is here, so yes CG...it is open season on peaches and cantalope! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Time to jingle for my GREs! I'm serious. Jingle jingle jingle! GRE has been resceduled. "Technical difficulties" my donkey...
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

[Heidi]

No, No, Medevil

Too many seeds in cantaloupes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
"I'd also suggest, if the very owners of the stallions do not understand the market for sporthorses well enough to pose their horses to their eventual market, wouldn't your time be better invested in educating your constituency of the market's expectations?"

Absolutely - they're working on it!!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Err ... shouldn't they have worked on it BEFORE launching the registry and Web site and promoting it? Just a thought.

Did someone mention chocolate covered strawberries? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

[Kinsella]

The first horse I ever rode cross-country was a pure ASB. He saved my butt over almost every jump. One of the best jumpers I have ever seen was a NSH. His owner knew the horse wasn't what he wanted so he sent it to the farm I rode at. It was sold to a client of Vic Russell's and is now showing and doing well in South America. I would certainly not turn my nose up at and ASB cross based upon the individual. But then that goes for any horse I would look at, be it ASB, Arab, Morgan, half cow. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Now, having said that, I really just had to comment on this...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Little Indian:
...What do you guys think of the Hispan Arabe registy AND association of north america? aren't they doing the same? crossing the arab with the andalusian to create a breed? what about the Azteca? you cross the andy with the quarter horse and you can continue crossing them to breed "up the levels" . or the Iberian warmblood...the cross between a TB/Andy....speeking of TB/Andy's there are MANY of them registerd AND branded Rhinlander. National Show Horse - a 'breed' that was initially a Saddlebred/Arab cross. or the "welara" the welsh/arab. or the Spanish Norman...an andy/percheron primarly suited for the jousting ring. why is it that these associations/registerys all seem to be pretty well off and not one person seems to complain about them?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>What we think about those registries doesn't really matter as they are not claiming to be breeding for Olympic caliber horses and promoting their registries on this forum.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Little Indian:
My personal opinion is that everybody not e-mailing the registry and asking them your questions, doesn't want to find out and just wants to have something to complain over. I have also seen many posts about the over-all goal of the registry. say it with me, E-MAIL THEM and get your anwser!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>But if they are on here why can't they answer the questions? If it were me I sure as heck would prefer to answer them all in one post than to have to type up umpteen individual emails! (and I know it's not me, but you get my point - I hope!)

OK, back to your regularly scheduled discussion. And for what it's worth, I am learning a ton and seeing some really nice animals. And I am glad to know TASHR is trying to educate their stallion owners on the proper 'look' for the sporthorse market.

******************************
...such are the horses on which gods and heroes ride.

Stoneybrooke Farm (http://www.stoneybrookefarm.com)

[Lianne]

Don't continue the argument and then try to pretend you're making peace by talking about chocolate. *lol* Maybe they should've waited to get better pics, even if there were better pics of these stallion in sporthorse poses, you would find something else to critique, I'm sure.
This registry is fledgling, not perfect, and it would be nice if everyone could simply sit back and let them give it a go. It's not hurting you in any way, is it?

[Fairview Horse Center]

Now Kinsella, if Lundquist (or Podhajsky??) said that the "untrained http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif cow in the field can jump 4 feet" does a half-cow only jump 2'?

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[Albion]

Well, I just think that if these are supposed to be 'sporthorse' producing types - and since some of these stallions are listed as 'Pure ASB Sporthorse types' - I would expect that they would be presented as such.

If I were a mare owner, looking to cross a nice mare with an ASB stallion in order to produce a nice sport horse cross, I must say that I would NOT be looking at stallions that appear to be (for the most part) focused towards the ASB, gaited side of things (as opposed to h/j, dressage, etc.) - some of these pictures alone (again, not all - but for the most part) would turn me off. Just as if I was breeding a warmblood to a warmblood & wanted to produce a foal that had a high(er) probability of having talent for jumping - I would NOT breed to lines known for producing great dressage horses.

Presentation is important. Several of the ASB stallions listed are presented in a perfectly traditional pose (in the hunter sense of the word) - they are simply stood up, and not parked out. Is it THAT hard?

BTW, as an aside, someone might want to alert the webmaster that under Wilhelm Tell II's little blurb, Flim Flam is listed as "imfamous" (I assume that's supposed to be "infamous") - someone might want to change that. I'm not a big dressage person, but I doubt Flim Flam has a terrible reputation, as that little blurb implies!

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[WhatzUp]

Hello,

Albion - Your sig. is from Dr.Faustus ! Simply brilliant !!

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[El Grande Stimpendo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That's the point, Lianne.

[QUOTE]The ultimate GOAL is to produce Olympic calibre horses, nobody is saying that the first crop of this registry is Olympics-bound, come on! It will take time, careful selective breeding, culling, training, etc etc, just like with ANY registry...[QUOTE]

Who, breeder, owner, trainer, rider, doesn't hope and wish for a breed/horse to excel to that level? On the other hand, who'd, out of the gate, establish a new registry featuring unconventional stallions with little to no performance records -- and make such claims?

I think what distinguishes horsepeople is our great willingness to hope, aspire, dream - at such great expense; at such personal, emotional, financial sacrifice. When I see a claim such as the one made, on their very own website, I am discomfited by the sense that this very quality, which makes us so very unique and special, is being exploited.

Most horses, irrespective of breed and breeding, aren't FEI worthy. But most registries do have stallions and mares who have distinguished themselves competitively. At the very least, start with that basic foundation - and then build, and slowly strive to gain the crediblilty to make such lofty claims.

I'd also suggest, if the very owners of the stallions do not understand the market for sporthorses well enough to pose their horses to their eventual market, wouldn't your time be better invested in educating your constituency of the market's expectations? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

careful there or CG may make fun of you for being fatuous.

[Albion]

Bits and Pieces -

It's actually (originally) from the Amores by Ovid. The line "gallops" in the Latin meter, which is why it's so cool to me.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[cbrand]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
Well, the warmbloods are already there, in spades. I can't see how (and I'm sure I'll be accused of narrow-mindedness for this http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) the saddlebred is going to improve on the current European warmbloods.

I just don't see it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having just come off of a busy show season, and having observed quite a few warmbloods being shown, I think I may be able to address this.

What could the ASB contribute:

Length of neck and better neck set. I saw lots of horses out there with short necks that tied in too low.

Length of shoulder and freedom in shoulder to produce the big showy trot that dressage folks go ga-ga for. I saw horses that were nicely trained and balanced, but they were never going to be super competitive because their bodies simply could not produce the elevated extensions that the judges wanted to see.

Uphill build. ASBs are known for being naturally uphill. Many of the horses I saw this summer were really having to fight their natural downhill builds.

Self carriage. Anyone who has ridden a horse that pulls and hangs like a freight train would see why you would want this.

Forward movement. If nothing else, ASBs are known for being forward. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif One of the saddest things I saw all year. Rated show... AA warming up on a big warmblood for 2nd level test...working WITH her trainer via a walkie-talkie. This AA was jabbing her horse with her spurs every stride and whipping him so hard you could hear it clear across the ring. The horse was just not a forward mover and this AA was trying to get blood from a stone.

Work ethic. ASB owners will tell you time and time again that their horses have heart. ASBs are big time tryers and they have a sincere desire to please their riders. I saw a lot of horses on the show circuit that could use better work ethic.



Nor do I. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif[/QUOTE]

[FionaJ]

I should have know. Ask a legitimate question in the interest of actually learning something and get personally slammed by SERAPH because I don't agree with her.

Sure I said: "Personally, I know this cross isn't for me."
To which I get:

"So why should I waste my time answering your questions? We are not trying to achieve validity in the eyes of people who have no interest. And since you are not interested in what we are producing, why bother to ask questions at all? "


Well, here is your answer: Perhaps you should answer the questions if they would futher learning which would support your organzation because you do not live in my world nor all my reaons as to why such a cross would not be for me. The first and foremost one is because I own three competitive horses and I just don't see myself going out and selling them. But if I did, then chose to go a different route--other than Trakehner which is what I prefer--I would as a consumer want to know and research. As a general lay person and horse person, I also like knowledge, so maybe that would be why you should answer my questions--because that would be the professional thing to do. But I kind of figured since I didn't just jump on the bandwagon, I'd get that reaction. Sorry to have bothered, but just remember you could have had a potential client down the line and did exactly what you accused me of doing. Best wishes with your org and may your group do and accomplish whatever it is you are trying to do.

[WBLover]

I don't think that improving the way the ASB stallions are posed in the pictures is going to do a darn bit of good unless they can MOVE correctly!! All of the ASB stallions I see in movement pictures have hocks that are flying way out behind them! You can't TEACH them to move any differently than that and standing them up more like a sporthorse isn't going to change their way of going or conformation. ENGAGEMENT is such an important quality in a sporthorse type, and they just don't have it. Long backs, flat high croups, and out behind. They are just not good sporthorse types IMO and certainly not a sire I'd look at to breed an "Olympic calibre sporthorse". Sorry, not "bashing" here, but just trying to understand where these "sporthorse type ASB's" are sporthorse in type? Having a "courageous heart" and "look of eagles" is great, but it doesn't make them able to perform in the jobs for which they are supposed to be suitable.

[wanderlust]

cbrand, you and I are obviously riding in different circles.

Not many of the well-bred warmbloods have ANY of the conformational issues you claim they do. Upper-level dressage warmbloods built downhill with low-set, short necks? Please. Just because their necks don't stick straight up out of their back doesn't mean they are downhill or low-set.

Secondly, the huge "showy" trot you are discussing is in vogue at the lower levels, but is not necessarily desirable at the upper levels due to the difficuly of the collected movements (there has been some discussion of this on the dressage forum recently). A quality trot with rhythm is much easier to work with than an enormous trot with tons of knee action. Additonally, suspension is very desirable, and that doesn't seem to be a trait of the saddlebreds. So, you would potentially give up suspension in favor of more knee action (and I don't buy your "ASB will contribute long shoulder/bigger stride" argument... the nice warmbloods already have great shoulders and sufficient stride, while the ASB I've seen go UP and DOWN, not OUT). Compound that with the long back and small hind-end, and again I'm not seeing that the benefits outweigh the risks.

Now lets talk self-carriage. Its already been discussed on previous threads about the saddlebred. Because a horse carries his head high or doesn't hang on the reins DOES NOT mean he's got self-carriage. The majority of saddlbreds I've seen go with their necks straight up and their backs completely hollow. Again, not self-carriage.

Forward... yep, some warmbloods need some help in the motivation department. But that is why their AA riders like them. Less high, less spook. More confident riders. The one particular case you saw was extreme, lets not paint all warmbloods with the same brush. I ride several who are incredibly forward, animated and charismatic... and several others who need more help to keep going. But the latter are safe, safe, safe for their AA riders.

Again, I'll stick with the warmbloods as they are today.

~formerly Master Tally~

[*SERAPH*]

"I'm not sayin' you treated me unkind.
You could have done better, but I don't mind.
You just kind of wasted my precious time.
But don't think twice, it's alright."

Bob Dylan


And I'm done here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[This message was edited by *SERAPH* on Nov. 15, 2003 at 11:54 PM.]

[CuriousGeorge]

If answering questions from potential consumers of your "product" is a waste of your precious time, then I predict it won't be long before your venture dies a quick natural death.

[ssaymssik]

I still don't get it. All this ruckus because some people don't think the ideals of this registry are "all that AND a bag of chips".

Most of the information offered by the website is vague and convoluted. One of the organizers of the registry has been running around singing bob Dylan, and jumping on anything that squirms.

I love ALL horses, and would look at just about anything breed or registrywise, if it could do the intended job. I wouldn't breed to anything of dissimilar type, which means that ASB are out for me.

I DON't like self-serving hypocrites who thrive on hype while lack in basic knowledge of the industry they are trying to court.

Thwack mosquito!!!!!

Stupid people bug me

[Celtic Witch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cbrand:
Length of neck and better neck set. I saw lots of horses out there with short necks that tied in too low.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I doubt they were real Euro Warmbloods as one with a truly short low set neck is a rarity (at least it is among the 100+ we have come through our yards in a year). And a neck that quite literally sticks straight up from the wither and is too long is every bit a flaw that a short, low set neck is with the added flaw that is very easy for the animal and/or rider to fake proper carriage. As I have said before, extremes of any sort are not examples of excellent conformation.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Length of shoulder and freedom in shoulder to produce the big showy trot that dressage folks go ga-ga for. I saw horses that were nicely trained and balanced, but they were never going to be super competitive because their bodies simply could not produce the elevated extensions that the judges wanted to see.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A big, showy trot is something that you work to achieve. For most riders, its a hindrance if a horse has too enormous a stride to start as the animal has 10 times the work ahead of him to control it. Balance is a long time coming and in the meantime, they are not rideable for your average amateur.

When I, and the dressage pros who come through our yard, choose a prospect, we look for freedom of the shoulder, flexion in the hock and regularity of gaits. I have one in the barn right now with all three who does not have huge, showy gaits. But he will in a few years!

We like to see a few steps of big, elevated trot at liberty but hardly want that to be the horse's every step.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Uphill build. ASBs are known for being naturally uphill. Many of the horses I saw this summer were really having to fight their natural downhill builds.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Erm, so are warmbloods and uphill has a lot more to do with way of going than a wither that is higher than the croup. There are plenty of uphill horses who do not move uphill.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Self carriage. Anyone who has ridden a horse that pulls and hangs like a freight train would see why you would want this.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not pulling does not equal self carriage. No ASB or NSH that I ever sat came installed with self carriage.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Forward movement. If nothing else, ASBs are known for being forward. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Forward has far more to do with proper training and riding than it does with state of mind. Rushing does not equal forward. All the ASBs and NSHs that I rode rushed in the beginning, which uneducated bystanders took to be fabulous, forward movement. When I got the stride regulated, they all thought I'd ruined the animal. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Work ethic. ASB owners will tell you time and time again that their horses have heart. ASBs are big time tryers and they have a sincere desire to please their riders. I saw a lot of horses on the show circuit that could use better work ethic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All of my horses, regardless of their breed, have work ethic. Why? Because I do my utmost to ride them with empathy, clarity, and consistency. Most horses I see who could "use a better work ethic" are only going to get it through better riding; a rider who is educated enough to not be jabbing the horse every stride, constantly picking on the reins, punishing his back or changing her goals/expectations with every ride.

Again, this is not something I see as breed specific.

Fact is, for many of us, ASB are not an animal we are interested in. We are happy with our Warmblood/Thoroughbred/Arabian/Whatever and see no reason to fix what isn't broken. I believe that is my right as much as it is yours. It is also my right to not believe that I am missing out on some great link to the wonders of the universe. I have that already. His name is Monty and he's a Dutch Warmblood.

Perhaps one of these days I will happen upon an ASB or ASB cross that I must have. That hasn't happened yet and until it does, I am quite happy to stick with the formula that is working for me.

Susie

[Lianne]

Oh, yeah, that's it, Jester.. make fun of SERAPH's quoting Bob Dylan, while her nay-sayers were talking about chocolate, cantaloupes and something called "nump".
At least her quote, whether you agree with it or not, was actually somewhat relevant.

Celtic Witch - I can't speak for the founders of the registry, but I can tell you that we aren't trying to convince you to sell off your present mounts and buy ASB crosses. We are suggesting that this cross has a LOT to offer, and it's unfair to simply dimiss the idea before these horses are even on the market yet. We aren't trying to "fix" something that we think is "broken" (although it might come across that way to some), we are simply suggesting that this can be a fabulous alternative for those who are looking if they can open their mind just a tiny bit and consider the possibility. And most of the recent posts on this thread have been fairly reasonable, but I think SERAPH is still fuming and smarting over the ignorant and assinine comments that were made at the very beginning.

[showjumpers66]

Boy Jester, your name suits ... definitely incited a giggle from me!!!!

I was recently at a dressage show - which I don't frequent often as I am one of those hunter/jumper people - and was surprised to see the hodge podge of lower level horses. There were ponies, drafts, Quarter Horses, Thoroughbreds, Paints, Appaloosas, Arabians, and who knows what crosses. The fancy warmblood with upper level potential was definitely the minority in the lower levels ... only saw a couple, but they were stand outs - soft, fluid, elevated, round. The higher the level, the better the quality became.

It was nice to see the variety of breeds, but it was obvious that it takes the right type of horse (type, not breed) to go to the upper levels.

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[Celtic Witch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
We are suggesting that this cross has a LOT to offer, and it's unfair to simply dimiss the idea before these horses are even on the market yet.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Few are dismissing the individual animals; they are being judged upon their true merits. Most of those doing the questioning are rather educated when it comes to breeding, and they are simply questioning your choosen road and pointing out flaws. If y'all can't handle that, you should not have gone public so early, especially with such grandiose sweeping generalisations.

And many of us simply have a problem with said grandiose statements that are not entirely truthful rather than with the actual horses. Not because they harm us, but because they mislead those who are new to horses and once many have a bad taste in their mouth, they will never return.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We aren't trying to "fix" something that we think is "broken" (although it might come across that way to some), we are simply suggesting that this can be a fabulous alternative for those who are looking if they can open their mind just a tiny bit and consider the possibility.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I do not think that anyone is really saying that some of the crosses cannot be nice animals anymore than they think that at TB x Draft cannot be a nice animal. We just do not think that they are good enough, or there are enough of them, to warrant creating a breed from them in a world that is already swamped with unwanted, mediocre horses.

Again, they are more or less taking exception to the sweeping statements. Were I in your shoes, I would have waited until I had some serious records to prove the cross before going public in the way TASHR has. Claiming a superb record at Devon and then getting angry when the truth of the matter was revealed does not equal a breed record.

In suddenly popping up with no results, no record, no proof whatsoever and comparing yourselves to registries such as the Selle Francais and KWPN, y'all are a bit like that Greek brat who flew too close to the sun.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And most of the recent posts on this thread have been fairly reasonable, but I think SERAPH is still fuming and smarting over the ignorant and assinine comments that were made at the very beginning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TOUGH.

When one works in PR, one doesn't have the priviledge to get pissy and be rude by refusing to answer questions (isn't that the job?). Seraph has done your venture more harm than good in this and other threads. Such brazen unprofessionalism will do nothing to recommend your organisation as a real player in the sporthorse breeding industry.

With all that said, I do wish y'all lots of luck and hope you reach your goals. What would the world be without dreams?

Cheers,
Susie

[Lianne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celtic Witch:

And many of us simply have a problem with said grandiose statements that are not entirely truthful rather than with the actual horses. Not because they harm us, but because they mislead those who are new to horses and once many have a bad taste in their mouth, they will never return. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

See, that's the kind of insinuation that causes the defensiveness - why do you automatically assume if they buy these horses they will get a "bad taste in their mouth"? What is the basis for that?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you mean that these people will inevitably be disappointed because they won't have an "Olympic" mount? Uh, to my knowledge, people who are "new to horses", as you put it, aren't looking for an Olympic mount, so your argument doesn't wash.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Again, they are more or less taking exception to the sweeping statements. Were I in your shoes, I would have waited until I had some serious records to prove the cross before going public in the way TASHR has. Claiming a superb record at Devon and then getting angry when the truth of the matter was revealed does not equal a breed record.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nobody claimed a "superb" record at Devon. Someone came on here who was not affiliated with the registry and tried to defend it by saying "didn't Max come away with some good results at Devon?"-or something to that effect. Neither SERAPH nor Tawna said anything about that. And no such claims are made on the registry's site, either.

This is exactly the kind of word-twisting that causes frustration. If you want SERAPH to answer your questions, then actually listen and please do not put your own personal little "spin" on what she says.

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
And most of the recent posts on this thread have been fairly reasonable, but I think SERAPH is still fuming and smarting over the ignorant and assinine comments that were made at the very beginning.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lianne - I take offense to this. Many of the people who have posted against the registry are very knowledge sporthorse breeders. Every step of the way you have had a comment. How many breeding inspections have you attended? Which breeding seminars have you attended? Who have you mentored with? How many inspection site champions have you bred? Premium foals? Approved stallions? Premium mares?

I understand that you have a ASB mare. My breed of choice is the Holsteiner and I don't fire both guns at people for saying that they don't like Holsteiners. That is why there are different breeds ... to accommodate the different venues and personal preferences.

The main concern from most posters is production of foals lacking in quality. You yourself stated that your own mare lacked in merit and probably would have not been approved by Canadian Warmblood. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>She is in the AUXILIARY mare book, she was accepted sight unseen. She is not a very fluid mover, and would probably have not passed had she been inspected.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How will this make me better off??? I am producing wonderful foals and I am very satisfied with my breeding program. Why would I want to breed to an ASB with no history of Grand Prix showjumping in his career or in the careers of any of his ancestors? Would I not want to breed to a stallion offering a pedigree in which every stallion in the first three generations was a Grand Prix showjumper? And who is successful in sport? Why would I not want to start out with the very best odds of producing that special foal? <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Warmblood/Saddlebred is a killer combo. The sooner people clue in to that, the better off they will be.
Jeez, the Quarter horse and the TB are just as different, and yet Appendixes are very popular mounts. What IS it with you close-minded people??
I am going to go backwards and read this whole thread... And try to control my anger.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What? It is narrow minded of me to feel that the mares and stallions should be of good quality and of the right type? <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Again, with all the hard-headed, narrow-minded buyers and breeders there are out there, something had to be done to get their attention.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The best way to resolve the stigma is to post sporthorse information on the website. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I was trying to uncover why this horrible stigma is attached to Saddlebreds. That being said, I've noticed that people who breed Arabs (purebred ones) for sport do encounter the same hard-headed narrow-minded people as the ASB breeders do...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My mare is 77% TB and yes, she does have some racebred QH and Paint (23%). Yes, you are right ... crosses should be done carefully and selectively. I looked for 2 years for this mare. She is of sporthorse type and has been accepted into RPSIs studbook. Her dam and her three half siblings by different Paint sires were all of sporthorse type. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Galileo - again, you've proven my point. People (just like you!) have NO problems with Arabs and Thoroughbreds and Paints (sorry, she's actually a TB/QH cross) being crossed with Warmbloods, as long as it's done carefully and selectively, am I right?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is a huge difference between breeding to an ASB who is not a successful sporthorse or proven producer of sporthorses or who is not out of proven producers of sporthorses and a 3 year old warmblood stallion with good type, movement, conformation, and of exceptional pedigree. The other major difference is that warmblood sires are required to meet performance requirements or attend a 100 day test. Is this in the works for the ASB? Will they be attending the 100 day test? <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Oh, and one more thing: stop attaching so much importance to proven performance and scores and such... Didn't you JUST breed to a 3-year old unproven stallion with no competition record simply based on his lineage?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lianne, you accuse me of being hard-headed and narrow-minded. I am simply standing behind my beliefs which is my right. Sorry, but a young person with very limited sporthorse breeding experience is not going to do it for me.

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[Lianne]

Again, words in my mouth. I purposely didn't name names because not everyone is being as ignorant as others. And yes, I use the word ignorant because talking about misfits and sickle hocks and such nonsense are assinine, ignorant comments. I've seen Warmbloods with god-awful conformation, but you will never catch me coming on this board and making that into a blanketed generalization.

And I may not have much experience in the general breeding world, but I have tens times the experience MOST of you have with Saddlebreds (the SPORTY type, not the gaited show type). Since I first bought my mare, I have ridden two others (an ASB and an ASB cross) and have met four people who breed these horses for sport, on a small scale, and who are getting wonderful results. My best friend has seen some of these horses in the flesh as well.

That's where MY arguments are coming from. And yes, it is still limited experience because the breeding of this cross is still very limited.

And there ARE WB stallions that did not pass the tests and are therefore not licensed with whatever registry. But we bring them over anyway. Does it make them any less worthy to you?

And to repeat ad nauseum - these are foundation stallions, they are a STARTING point. Hopefully, if the registry achieves its goals, then ten years from now there will be lines of sporthorse performace and proven records to build on.

Now, maybe it was hasty to form the registry BEFORE this happened. That is a valid argument, but the point is, it's done. It's formed.

And if you really believe that the only stallions that should be allowed to cover mares are ones with GP records, parents with GP records, babies with GP records, etc etc etc...
Then wow, you must think that half the stallion owners on this board should geld their boys asap and find another day job!

[showjumpers66]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lianne:
And there ARE WB stallions that did not pass the tests and are therefore not licensed with whatever registry. But we bring them over anyway. Does it make them any less worthy to you?QUOTE]

Yes, and most of these are NOT bred and are left stallions because they are performing well in sport as a stallion. See Dr. Ruben D. Walker's very fascinating article about stallions performing well as international showjumpers, "Analysis of the Results of the 2003 World Cup Finals" in the spring 2003 issue of The International Equine Journal. Not every horse who is successful in sport is of breeding quality.

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
And yes, I use the word ignorant because talking about misfits and sickle hocks and such nonsense are assinine, ignorant comments. I've seen Warmbloods with god-awful conformation, but you will never catch me coming on this board and making that into a blanketed generalization.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I based my opinion on the photos of the ASB stallions on the Americana Sporthorse website. Do you know what sickle hocks are??!! Anyone who is breeding even one foal should learn the basics of conformation.

Taken from Conformation and Performance by Nancy S. Loving DVM

<UL TYPE=SQUARE><LI>Cat-Hammed - Poor development of hindquarter muscles particularly along the quadriceps and thighs to create a feline appearing hind end configuration. Cat-hammed thighs often go hand-in-hand with other undesirable conformational characteristics including a goose-rump and sickle hocks. Seen most often in Gaited horses. A cat-hammed horse lacks development of the hind-end muscles that are responsible for speed and power, so the horse lacks the inherent ability to be fast or strong. This reduces the usefulness of such a horse for sports like polo, eventing, jumping, steeplechase, and timber, flat, and harness racing. The gait of such horses tends to be more ambling than driving at the trot, and the horse often develops a stiff torso and back, making for a rigid, inelastic ride.
<LI>Short Gaskin - A short gaskin indicates a relatively short tibia with a long cannon bone. In the ideal conformation, the hocks are placed slightly higher than the front knees with the point of the hock level with the chestnut of the front limb, but on a horse with this conformation, the hocks will be noticeably higher in placement. A short gaskin and a long cannon allows a horse to pull its hind legs well beneath the body to give a long reach of rear stride. However, the hind legs do not always move in synchrony with the front legs. The result would be a relatively inefficient gait as the hind end is forced to slow to allow the front end to catch up, or the horse slows the hind end by taking high steps behind, giving a flashy, stiff hock and stifle action. A short gaskin and long cannons often result in a sickle hock conformation with its ensuing problems.
<LI>Long Gaskin - A long gaskin is created by a long tibia (bone between the stifle and hock). The overall appearance is a rear end that tends to a squatting position. A long gaskin causes the hocks and lower leg to be placed behind the body in a camped out position. In order for the horse to get its hocks beneath the body to develop thrust, the lower leg must "sickle" or stand "cow-hocked". The long lever arm created by a long gaskin reduces the muscle efficiency to drive the rear limbs forward. The long gaskin makes it more difficult for a horse to engage the hindquarters and control rear limb movement important to exercise of a slow, regular rhythm like dressage.
<LI>Camped Out Behind - In the ideal horse as viewed from the side, a plumb line dropped from the point of the buttock should fall directly in line with the back of the rear cannon and fetlock. In this conformation, the cannon and fetlock stand "behind" the plumb line when the horse is squared up. If the alignment from the point of the buttock down is not "straight" along the plumb line, the horse's rear leg will move with a greater swing than normal before the foot contacts the ground. A camped out behind horse has difficulty in bringing its hocks and cannons beneath the body unless it creates a functional sickle-hocked or cow-hocked configuration. The trot is inhibited by the long, overangulated legs with the horse tending to trot with a flat stride with the legs strung. It is difficult for such a horse to engage the back or haunches, making upper level dressage movements or jumping bascule difficult to achieve, and making it difficult to efficiently gallop with speed. The back is susceptible to injury.
<LI>Sickle Hocked - This describes a "crooked" hind leg that slants slightly forward of a straight plumb line when viewed from the side, with the cannon unable to be placed in a vertical position giving the leg a "sickled" appearance. Sickle hocks limit straightening and backward extension of the hocks, thereby limiting push-off, propulsion, and speed.
<LI>Gaiting/Gaitedness - Gaited horses often have long backs and loins which tend to ventroflex (hollow); this elevates the head and shoulders upward, making it easier for the horse to gait.
<LI>Long or Weak Loins/Weak Coupling - Coupling describes the joining of the back to the croup at the lumbosacral (L-S) joint. Ideally the L-S joint should lie directly above the point of the hip. Weak coupling is often seen when the L-S joint is set further to the rear of the horse than the point of the hip. The loins are defined by the area of muscles formed by the last rib to the point of the hip. Normally, only two to three fingers' breadth should fit in this area. Loins are considered long if this span is more than a hand's breadth. Long loins are often associated with a long back. A horse with weak or slack loins may be able to bend laterally quite well, but collection suffers since true collection depends on coiling of the loins to bend the hind leg joints. Because the hindquarters and hocks aren't able to be positioned beneath the horse's body, the hind legs string out behind. A horse that is unable to "coil" its loins moves with a stiff back and a flattened L-S joint, throwing the rear legs out behind like a marathon runner. Weak loins limit achievement of high performance in dressage.
<LI>Long Back - The back is measured from the peak of the withers to the peak of the croup. A back is considered long if it exceeds one-third of the horse's overall body length. A long back is often associated with long, weak loins. A long back is flexible but makes it harder for a horse to stiffen and straighten the spine to develop speed, or to "coil" its loins to collect and engage the hindquarters to thrust the rear limbs forward. This directly affects work at the higher levels of dressage or agile movements ... that rely on rapid engagement of the hindquarters to change direction or provide acceleration. Reduced flexion of a long back makes it difficult for the horse to round its back in a jumping bascule so it will be forced to jump in a flatter, less efficient frame. [/list]

Lianne, I rest my case.

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Correct me if I'm wrong, but do you mean that these people will inevitably be disappointed because they won't have an "Olympic" mount? Uh, to my knowledge, people who are "new to horses", as you put it, aren't looking for an Olympic mount, so your argument doesn't wash.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Okay, I'll correct you. The Americana Sporthorse website states - "The Americana Sport Horse Registry is an organization focused on creating an Olympic caliber American sporthorse by blending select foundation American Saddlebred stock, with partial infusion of European Warmblood stock.", so yes, the novice, uneducated horse owner would be expecting an Olympic caliber horse. How can you predict what their future plans will be? Do you honestly know if they plan to ride in the lower levels for years or try to achieve Grand Prix level way down the road?

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[WhatzUp]

Susie,

Get back in the cave ! It's a happier place here ... and bring more vodka, um and the latest COTH & Horse and Hound please ...

Others welcome of course ...

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[showjumpers66]

Sorry, Lynn. I'll shut up now!

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[WhatzUp]

showjumpers66,

No no no ... I mean no direspect at all.

I enjoy your posts, truly.

You have more courage than I, as I bailed on this thread several pages ago ... but somehow can not help myself but to return to follow the saga ...

Celtic Witch and I have decided to hang out in our little cave with a few accessories - as attempting to state some facts here (certainly also some opinions too; the differentiation bluntly stated) has gotten us, &lt;sigh&gt;, nowhere.

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[showjumpers66]

Well, in that case, may I join you in the cave? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[WhatzUp]

Of course ! Welcome !! Have a glass ...!

Get in here - there's plenty of room !!

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[Lianne]

showjumper66 - okay, first of all, you weren't the one who mentioned sickle hocks, so I don't know why you felt so compelled to defend yourself with such a long-winded conformation lesson.
Second, how in the world can you see sickle hocks in all those stallions when it's been complained time and time again that these horses are all parked out? You can STILL see that every one of them is sickle-hocked?

And *chuckle* if you're honestly going to speculate and assume that the "novice horse person" is going to start shopping for an Olympic mount (how many beginner riders have have you seen buy their first horse and take it to Grand Prix fifteen or twenty years later? Because if it's as probable and common as you seem to imply, I'd like some examples, please).

Oh, and while we're on the subject of wild statements about beginners and Olympic mounts, did you all know that ASB's have a magic chestnut? And when you touch it, you turn into a fairy princess?

[Galileo1998]

Can I invite myself to the Cave? I have vanilla Vodka!! As the existing cave dwellers are a Canadian and an American that spent years in the UK, and I'm a Canadian that spent years in the UK maybe we can start a new registry?? Call it the CANADGLANDUSA???
And showjumper - will you bring your PAINT mare? We can cross her with the unproven Warmblood stallion I bred to this year. He's quite colourful too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[ssaymssik]

Hmmmm...

Influxes of approved European warmbloods will be integrated to enhance substance, increase power, and improve overall sporthorse "type" within a superior breed.The word in question here is "superior".

The Americana Sport Horse is a Warmblood. This can be a problem.

The Americana's movement is extravagant, and they are extremely light on their feet. They are as brilliantly adept at collection as at extension. They have powerful hind-quarters and strong hocks, enabling them to jump extremely well. They have remarkable stamina, speed, and agility, which gives them the ability to excel in dressage, showjumping, eventing, competitive driving, and endurance. Dreams are good.

The Americana's 'look of eagles' and breathtaking presence, combined with keen intelligence, courageous heart, and amiable disposition simply cannot be rivaled by any other Warmblood breed in existence. Hmmmm, no other breed in existance has this look?

The presence within the Americana Sporthorse is instantly recognizable. Their beauty, brilliance of movement, and courage of heart are beyond compare. The eyes should reflect keen intelligence, which is full of positive spirit and curiosity. Americana horses carry themselves with great nobility. Their temperament is always very attentive, willing and they exhibit interest in their surroundings without fear. They are forever kind and very people oriented. What doesany of this have to do with actual performance?

In closing, I'd like to mention that you can't ride papers...

Stupid people bug me.
Discrimination IS a poor substitute for ignorance.

[fleur]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And *chuckle* if you're honestly going to speculate and assume that the "novice horse person" is going to start shopping for an Olympic mount (how many beginner riders have have you seen buy their first horse and take it to Grand Prix fifteen or twenty years later? Because if it's as probable and common as you seem to imply, I'd like some examples, please). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


lianne, you are completely missing the point. it doesn't matter what the horse-shopper wants. if tashr's horses are not olympic calibre, then why the heck does it say they are all over the website? if you want to breed horses for beginners, then advertize them as great starter horses and good all-arounders. if you want high-level show jumping competitors to come look at your horses, advertize them as olympic calibre, but you damn well better be able to prove it! and i'm no grand prix rider but i can't imagine aaron vale, todd minikus, margie goldstein-engle, or the likes coming across tashr and giving it a second glance for jumper prospects. no way. in fact, i think they might laugh http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[tko]

This thread was began with fleur posting:

posted Nov. 09, 2003 08:55 PM
americana sporthorse registry
can someone tell me about this association? i had never heard of it before seeing this link in a thread here. i browsed the 'approved' stallions and while they all seem like very nice stallions, i am a little confused because the saddlebred stallions all appear to be halter type (not to mention downhill and longbacked) then down the page it says "asb/classical sporthorse" and the stallions are all friesians or andalusians. i guess i just don't understand what whoever runs this registry is hoping to accomplish with these crosses of halter, baroque, and warmblood... can anyone explain? thanks in advance

Seems to me, Seraph has responded the way she did because its obvious you wanted to denigrate this registry and what they're attempting to do.

And maybe that's why most of the posters haven't been taken seriously. I think this thread is getting really boring. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

[LEP Enterprises, LLC]

Yes, lets drop this discussion please.

________________________
*London*Hannah*Kirsche*
*Gryphon Bay & foal on the WAY!!!*

[Lianne]

fleur - you have a PT

[showjumpers66]

Lianne, I will defer to your superior knowledge and experience.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I have tens times the experience MOST of you have with Saddlebreds (the SPORTY type, not the gaited show type). Since I first bought my mare, I have ridden two others (an ASB and an ASB cross) and have met four people who breed these horses for sport, on a small scale, and who are getting wonderful results. My best friend has seen some of these horses in the flesh as well.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[showjumpers66]

Me and my Paint mare are off to the cave ...

Quantum Leap Farm
http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/

[Lianne]

you conveniently forgot to quote me referring to my limited experience considering the limited breeding of this cross. But that's okay, I think we've all perfected the art of extracting the parts we want to pick on and leaving out important details to make people look bad.
I was certainly trying to drop this as LEPEnterprises asked, and answered fleur in a PT, but showjumper just couldn't help herself, so, neither could I.
Have fun, cave-dwellers!

[WBLover]

Lianne

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think we've all perfected the art of extracting the parts we want to pick on and leaving out important details to make people look bad.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you have conveniently left out answering the relevant questions people have asked of you. Such as what about these ASB stallions are sporthorse in type when they travel hollow-backed with their hocks flailing behind them? That point has been brought up very many times, me included, but never answered. We just want to know what they have to contribute to your gene pool besides "a look of eagles" and a "courageous heart" and how they are going to produce "Olympic caliber" sporthorses. All quoted from your mission statement of the registry. The Euro warmblood gene pools also contain horses with "looks of eagles" and "courageous hearts" (my warmbloods' temperaments have been unrivaled by any other type of horse I've owned or been around) and on top of it all they are built to perform what they were bred to do. What's the saddlebred going to contribute?

[Justin]

Seraph, is your stallion part of Tashr's breeding program?

[cbrand]

First let me say that I am in no way defending the Americana folks or their choice of ASB stallions. I simply here to dispell myths about the American Saddlebred....


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
cbrand, you and I are obviously riding in different circles. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe... my ASB gelding showed at quite a few rated and unrated shows under R judges as well as RMDS/USDF Championships in Colorado under S judges.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Not many of the well-bred warmbloods have ANY of the conformational issues you claim they do. Upper-level dressage warmbloods built downhill with low-set, short necks? Please. Just because their necks don't stick straight up out of their back doesn't mean they are downhill or low-set.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well I'm sure that the term "wellbred" probably plays in here, but I saw a lot of horses this summer and I did see a number horses with short necks that tied in low. Most of these were in TR-2nd level where the majority of riders show. Once you get above 2nd, you start to separate the chaff from the wheat and the horses (I think as Showjumper pointed out) got much nicer. Still, not every warmblood out there showing is perfectly conformed. I know a local horse that has had excellent success showing at 3rd and 4th. His very talented rider and trainer has complained though that it has been a battle overcoming his "slightly" downhill build (we are not talking western pleasure downhill here...). This same trainer has often commented on how nice it is that my ASB is built so "uphill".

RE necks...Not all Saddlebreds have necks that go straight up. Many having lovely, long athletic necks that are set well onto the shoulder. Take a look at my ASB gelding at the bottom of the page:

http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/spotlight.html

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Secondly, the huge "showy" trot you are discussing is in vogue at the lower levels, but is not necessarily desirable at the upper levels due to the difficuly of the collected movements (there has been some discussion of this on the dressage forum recently). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif well we'll have to get the word out to breeders of dressage prospects to stop advertising their stallions and foals with those big trot money shots! Seriously, though, the horses I saw at Championships that were competing at Prix St. George and higher had huge flashy trots. Most folks I know find that type of movement highly desirable!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> A quality trot with rhythm is much easier to work with than an enormous trot with tons of knee action. Additonally, suspension is very desirable, and that doesn't seem to be a trait of the saddlebreds. So, you would potentially give up suspension in favor of more knee action <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think you might be thinking of a saddleseat ASB way of going. My ASB gelding does not having that up-down-up sewing machine motion. Rather he has a big floaty trot that is so free in the shoulder that he is able to really reach up and out. Plus, he has tons of suspension. I wish I could capture a still photo from the at liberty video that was shot before I bought him. You would see a horse that has all four feet well off the ground at the trot.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now lets talk self-carriage. Its already been discussed on previous threads about the saddlebred. Because a horse carries his head high or doesn't hang on the reins DOES NOT mean he's got self-carriage. The majority of saddlbreds I've seen go with their necks straight up and their backs completely hollow. Again, not self-carriage.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, you are talking about a saddleseat way of going while I'm talking about ASBs in dressage. My horse has wonderful selfcarriage. He is connected back to front and maintains a lovely light contact with the bit. At the canter, you can push the inside hand forward until you have slack in the rein and he stays nicely balanced on the outside rein. That's what I mean about selfcarriage.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Forward... yep, some warmbloods need some help in the motivation department. But that is why their AA riders like them. Less high, less spook. More confident riders. The one particular case you saw was extreme, lets not paint all warmbloods with the same brush. I ride several who are incredibly forward, animated and charismatic... and several others who need more help to keep going. But the latter are safe, safe, safe for their AA riders. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly not all warmbloods are sloggy! However, I think we have unfairly convinced AAs and juniors that horses that need to be pushed, pushed, pushed are somehow the safe choice for them. A horse can be safe and still be light, responsive and have a big moter. My ASB gelding has taken AAs and Juniors to many 1st places. He has done Cub Scout demos. He is very safe. At the same time, he is very forward. I just found out this week that he finished 4th overall for RMDS Horse of the Year (Junior rider 1st level). That's fourth out of around 175 junior riders and their horses.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Again, I'll stick with the warmbloods as they are today.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK... You had asked what ASBs could contribute. I think that many people have ideas about Saddlebreds based on what they have seen in the saddleseat ring. I encourage everyone to take another look at ASB sporthorses that are being used in dressage or eventing.

Hey Wanderlust... if you are ever in Boulder, CO you can come out and ride my horse. I think you will be pleasantly surprised!

[Celtic Witch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bits and Pieces:
Susie,

Get back in the cave ! It's a happier place here ... and bring more vodka, um and the latest COTH & Horse and Hound please ...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Holy hell, what was I thinking! I'm coming and bringing plenty of supplies.

Apple martini anyone?

Okay, now about this CANADGLANDUSA... First we need a website.

Susie

[ssaymssik]

I think the BIGGEST problem here is all of the claims of the registry without the "proof in the puddin".

Goals are one thing, but until there is an "Olympic Calibre" horse produced by this registry, why can't they strive for "Optimal Level Sporthorses" (note, I didn't say warmbloods). At least that is what I think, but whatdoIknow...

Stupid people bug me.
Discrimination IS a poor substitute for ignorance.

[Lianne]

WBLover - it isn't my place to answer your questions. Believe it or not, I am not affiliated with the registy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[wanderlust]

Susie, may I join you in the cave? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[Celtic Witch]

Come on in, Wanderlust. Sit by the fire and have a martini.

Susie

[WBLover]

Sorry, Lianne, you seem to be fiercely defending it therefore I got the wrong impression.

So, how about Seraph or anyone else affiliated?

[dassportpferd]

Hey folks--I was probably one of the bigger skeptics! I only rode big a*s Swedish Warmbloods --my last being a SWB to Prix St.Georges. I was invited to ride a 3yo ASB/DWB stallion named Maxamillion.

Damn folks, he is so light, carries himself, uses his back and steps well under, I about wet myself! He is an outstanding "ladies" horse (not one of the monsters that sucks the blood and energy from you). I have owned several imported SWB's that an Olympic judge (LZ)imported that were Schweet, but must say that this horse has suprised the heck out of me, as he is a breath of fresh air--so easy to ride!

I really do not know if any of the other horses that TASHR wants to develop would be as nice of a ride as Max. Hard to speculate. What I do know is his offspring reflect his best qualities so far.

The proof really is in the pudding! From my perspective, it is all about the riding/training/ability aspect. This stallion, at three years of age appears to have what it takes to do the job, and will continue to develop. He has had some really cool comments from other FEI/GP trainers that I discussed him with--"definitely suitable for upper level work" amongst others. As he becomes mature, let's see where he ends up!

As for his scores at Devon, they were in the 70's! Not shabby at all--wish all of my tests were this high. He certainly wasn't the lowest scoring horse overall shown this year! That's my 2 cents.

Where the Art Ends, Violence Begins.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tko:
This thread was began with fleur posting:

posted Nov. 09, 2003 08:55 PM
americana sporthorse registry
can someone tell me about this association? i had never heard of it before seeing this link in a thread here. i browsed the 'approved' stallions and while they all seem like very nice stallions, i am a little confused because the saddlebred stallions all appear to be halter type (not to mention downhill and longbacked) then down the page it says "asb/classical sporthorse" and the stallions are all friesians or andalusians. i guess i just don't understand what whoever runs this registry is hoping to accomplish with these crosses of halter, baroque, and warmblood... can anyone explain? thanks in advance

Seems to me, Seraph has responded the way she did because its obvious you wanted to denigrate this registry and what they're attempting to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Seraph (you don't really think you're fooling anyone with the alternate username, do you?), why do you assume that just because people are questioning the registry, they're "denigrating" it?

The people on this thread -- the people you've belittled and said aren't worth your time -- ARE YOUR POTENTIAL MARKET. Do you really think there's a vast pool of dressage or event riders out there who are dying to ride an ASB cross? No... most likely, just like everyone here, they have preconceived notions about the ASB and what it can do, and would probably be extremely skeptical about using it as a sporthorse.

If you are going to insult everyone who wonders aloud about what you guys are doing and questions it, you'll have a hard time finding potential buyers for your "Americanas."

The reactions on this thread ARE what you guys are going to face when trying to market these horses. And if your response in real life is going to be anything like it has been here, your registry will fail miserably. Do you really think that tactics you've taken on this thread have won people over??

There are some recurring themes on this thread that, if you guys have any sense at all, you'll be taking note of. Your website does not clearly express what you are doing -- scores of people here have looked at the website and still have unanswered questions. The stallions pictured on your website would likely not attract sport horse people, as they're not presented as sport horses. And people want to see proof of what these horses can accomplish -- i.e. you'd better be working your tails off to document it.

People pay good money for that kind of market research. You've just gotten 17 pages of it for free, and yet this thread bores you. Yeesh. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's obvious you think these horses are the cat's pajamas. That's great, but not everyone is going to share your opinions. Rather than writing all those people off as being not worth your time, you should be asking yourselves how you're going to change their minds.

You need to figure out how to sell ice to Eskimos. And I'm willing to bet that insulting the Eskimos who aren't sure they need ice isn't the way to do it.

[wanderlust]

Susie, I'll bring enough apple-tinis for the group. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And Erin, thank you for taking the words right out of my fingers. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[rusti]

I read the inital post a few days ago and have been working to support my horsey addiction so haven't checked back. Not suprised to find 17 pages of pretty darn interesting reading tonight. And after wading though it all I have to admit I just don't get the point to creating this registry. And I really don't get how the hodge podge of stallions on the site are going to create any kind of consitant pheonotype that will justify calling it a breed in the near or distant future. No one involved in the registry has stepped forward to answer these questions adequately, only to restate the info that everyone is questioning on their web site.
I can empathize with having a stallion that you, your trainer, the rest of the world, thinks is a wonderful animal but there really is no place for within the established registries. It seems that was the driving force to start this new registry. I don't think anyone has said that an individual warmblood/ASB cross or a pure ASB can not be suitable for the FEI levels in any of the olympic sports. What is being questioned is are those few who can excell enough justification to support a new registry. The answer based on the responses here is a resounding NO. I believe that the dutch tried allowing ASB's into the registry a while ago and the program was scrapped as a failure. I have know idea why they felt it didn't work, maybe someone else does. I'm willing to take a guess though, just based on the photos of the warmblood/ASB's that I've seen. The ASB seems very prepotent for passing on a slight hind end and a very straight stifle. And as others have commented the sickle hocks that tend to go right along with that particular hind end issue. Not that I don't think an individual horse of this cross can't excell but just don't think these are trait the warmblood folks want to breed into their horses.
Why not, if this is a cross you believe in, simply cross your ASB mares, or stallions to warmbloods or visa versa and market them for what they are? Crossbred sporthorses? Why the need to create a new registry for them?
Also then you have the issue of breeding the crossbreds themselves. How consistant are these F1 stallions going to be in passing on the traits this registry is hoping to develope? To what breed are they going to be crossed back? Warmblood or saddlebred? Or are there any rules? Add andalusion, lipizzaner, etc that are listed as approved stallions to the mix and I just can't see how this program is going to create horses that look anything alike, let alone stand up to the prediction that they will be olympic calibre horses.

Any more room in the cave?

[showjumpers66]

Come on in, rusti!

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[showjumpers66]

I stumbled across this site - http://www.bishoplane.com/monochamps.htm

I know they are not ASBs, but Ganges is gorgeous and I would not hesitate to use a stallion like to refine a heavy warmblood mare.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[Lianne]

dassportpferd - thank you for that! What a glowing salute to Max. And you're right, his babies so far are very nice - some nice, some EXTREMELY nice.

Erin - you wanna know why SERAPH dismissed some of these people? Because it's obvious they're just trying to back her into a corner and make her squirm. Some people seemed to be genuinely interested. Others, NOT. Fairview and Dassport have tried to add very supportive anecdotes, and nobody has said anything about that (how convenient), whereas when someone has come on saying negative things, there has been resounding "yeah, I agree", "you took the words right out of my mouth" , "exactly, what she said" from numerous parties.
It's discouraging to even the most forceful of PR people.

[Everythingbutwings]

If you view the questions posed by TASHR's possible future market to be aimed at making someone squirm, you have missed the point of this entire topic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Lianne]

Oh, please. Like I said, some people DID seem genuinely curious, others posed their questions in a very derogatory fashion, dripping with sarcasm, even on a SCREEN I could see that.
And don't ask me to give you examples, it's much too easy for the person to come on and feign total innocence "why, I don't know what you're talking about, Lianne!". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Edited to add - I'm not trying to say SERAPH's reaction was entirely justified, I'm just trying to explain it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Jasmine]

Lianne, anecdotal evidence is useless to most. Breeders want to see real performance records, not the wonderful feelings of the stallions' trainers and owners. I adore my little mare to death, and my trainer thinks she's nice. Do I want to breed her to produce an olympic caliber horse? Heck no! She has no record, is only 3, hasn't proven herself in any way shape or form....yet. Once she does I might be willing to breed her. If she doesn't, she will not ever have a baby for me.

And there has been no real answer to any of the honest questions posed here. If the founders of this registry don't like our questions because they make them uncomfortable, they might want to look at what they are acomplishing.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Erin - you wanna know why SERAPH dismissed some of these people? Because it's obvious they're just trying to back her into a corner and make her squirm. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does she have REASON to squirm?

If not, she should be relishing the chance to step up and put the naysayers in their places. Nothing shuts people up faster than a good helping of solid facts. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

For example... the fact that no one from TASHR has posted their qualifications, either on their website or here on the thread, makes me think that they know their qualifications aren't really all that impressive. While that doesn't necessarily mean their venture won't be a success (Bill Gates' qualifications probably weren't all that good in the beginning http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), to shy away from acknowledging that their qualifications are nothing special is a warning flag to me. I'd have no problem with someone saying "No, on paper I'm not the second coming of Kenny Wheeler, BUT..." At least then I know that they're aware of their limitations.

Also, no one has responded to the questions about why the stallions are from such diverse phenotypes and what TASHR's logic is for combining them. Do they HAVE a logic? We don't know, because they won't answer.

Successful PR involves changing perceptions. It's about projecting an image that says "we're right, and here's why." As a journalist, I often talk to PR people from opposite sides of an issue, and I can tell you that when I get off the phone with good ones, they have me TOTALLY convinced. Then I talk to the other side, and THEY have me totally convinced. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif That's what good PR is.

[Lianne]

Jasmine - tell me something, when you breed to a stallion, is it his scores and placings that are inherited by his get, or his talent? If a horse has the talent to go to the top, and it's been said by many a reputable trainer and accomplished high-level competitive rider, don't you think he is just as likely to pass it on as a stallion who is older and has actually competed? Or is a stallion who has competition results magically bestowed with the power to pass it on now that he has written scores to his name?
What I'm trying to say is that some of these foundation stallions are just as talented as a lot of the ones that have competition results. And their ability to pass their talent on does not depend on whether or not they prove themselves in the ring, it's either there or it isn't.
Now, that being said, I undertand that for a breeder who is thousands of miles away and can't come out to the see the stud in person, that competition results are a necessary indication of his worthiness. I think what most of you are criticizing is the timing of this, establishing the registry before these stallions truly have had a chance to shine. Fine, then the timing is off. They were over-eager. If that's their biggest mistake so far, then they could've done a lot worse.
Anyways, I can't speak for Jen and Tawna anymore than that, because as for the different stallions chosen, I'm in the dark about that. I know a fair amount about the ASB/WB studs, but not the others...

[Jasmine]

OK, who are the top trainers and riders that have said wonderful things about these horses? Why don't they have results? Where are the babies? Even pictures of foals would help a breeder considering these stallions.

I bred to a stallion last year that didn't (at the time I bred) have foals on the ground. But, he had a fabulous in-hand record. He was just starting training. His owner also didn't market him as a producer of olympic level horses. She couldn't have backed that up, since she had no proof. The TASHR stallions are being marketed as just that. Where's the proof of ability?

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

[Lianne]

Good grief, where does it say that these stallions are producing Olympic level horses?? Its says the GOAL of the registry is to produce these kinds of horses, if it already had a bunch of Olympic horses in its registry, then it wouldn't really be a GOAL anymore, now would it? Nowhere does it say these horses are Olympic producers. It says what the registry is striving to achieve.
And I have yet to come across a registry website that has pics of its registered stallions' babies. That is on the individual stallions' websites, where applicable.

FYI - Tawna is not posting on this thread because she has been threatened by "the powers that be". I'll leave it at that.

[rusti]

Lianne, this discussion has not been about how nice Max is or is not. He's cute, I'm sure he's a nice riding horse. Is he olympic calibre? Don't know, that's something only time will tell. Even so, its irrelevant to the discussion. We're talking about developing a new breed CONSISTANTLY suitable for upper level work in dressage, showjumping and eventing and if these foundation sires have what it takes to accomplish that goal. Sorry if the conclusion is not what you all wanted to hear. These boys have no competition record to speak of, their bloodlines don't have a history of producing horses on a CONSISTANT basis for the sports they are claiming to breed for, and I doubt most have the conformation to stand up to that level of competition.
You bring up Max's foals, so I looked at the pics, yep, cute, can't really judge more from a couple of pics but look at what he's bred to, a trak cross, Tb and arab. How may I ask is that mish mash of different breeds and types going to produce any kind of consistancy? Any one of those foals my go on to be something great, or not, again only time will tell, one thing that is a no brainer though is they are very unlikely to be simialar in type.
Again, this discussion is not about any individual stallion and his merits or lack there of, its about whether or not this registry can live up to its own claims.

[Everythingbutwings]

Trying to produce Olympic calibre offspring from horses with little to no performance records of their own?

Starting a registry with less than stellar stock as foundation sires and no testing?

Promoting that registry with no offspring in competition?

TASHR seems to be several years ahead of it's own program in promotion and several generations behind in actual fact and experience. If this "registry" were a high school science experiment, it wouldn't get a passing grade.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Jasmine]

If it is a goal of the registry to produce Olympic horses, then the founding stallions should have very good, if not excellent performance records. And you didn't answer my question about which BNTs were saying nice things about these stallions.

I highly doubt anyone has been threatened by COTH. You've got to be pretty bad before even the moderators will yell at you.

Predjudice is a poor substitute for thought.

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
FYI - Tawna is not posting on this thread because she has been threatened by "the powers that be". I'll leave it at that.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Excuse me??? Tawna was not "threatened," and is perfectly welcome to post on this thread. She was encouraged to do so by the "powers that be," actually.

I believe she was told that if she absolutely insisted on having this thread deleted, COTH might consider doing it in exchange for her forfeiting her rights to participate on the forum. Certain aspects of Tawna's behavior toward me off the BB were also extremely inappropriate, which I believe Tawna knows. Had that continued, we also would have considered removing her posting rights.

Please, Lianne, don't post damning half-truths like that and expect them not to be challenged. Unlike Jennifer and Tawna, I AM perfectly willing to defend and explain things.

[Janeway]

But wouldn't you want to start a new registry with already proven stallions? or at least a few proven ones? At least then you know that the offspring will be able to perform.

In TASHR's case, all the studs are young and unproven in terms of producing sporthorses. I'm not sure how you can build a new type of horse when you don't even know what the foundations sires produce.

A good example of a Registry created by a stallion owner who wanted to breed and market his products his own way is the Zangersheide Stud created by Leon Melchior. He didn't like what the Belgium studbooks were doing so he created his own, except when he started his registry he started with Ramiro Z and Alme as stallions and using many broodmares sired by Gotthard. So he knew that his stallions were not only good jumpers themselves, but that they were prepotent for passing it on before he created his own stud. And he does indeed breed Olympic Calibre horses! Several in fact http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Here is the website if anyone is interested: Zangersheide Stud (http://www.zangersheide.com/)

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

[Lianne]

Erin - Telling her that the thread being deleted will mean her being banned from COTH is pretty threatening in my book. And whether she is unagreeable with you off the board shouldn't matter ON the board.

[Erin]

Lianne, it was not a threat, it was an offer. Neither I nor anyone else at COTH felt this thread was against our stated rules. But if Tawna was going to push the issue, fine... we'd have considered deleting the thread if SHE would have given something up in return.

As it turned out, apparently the ability to continue posting on the BB was more valuable to Tawna than having the thread deleted. That was her choice.

Participating on these forums is a privilege, not a right. The COTH doesn't have to continue to extend the right to people who aren't willing to play by the rules that have been established.

Tawna's behavior toward me off the BB was not just disagreeable... it was outright harrassment. And COTH certainly has no obligation to provide a free playground for people who think it's appropriate to harrass the moderators.

[Lianne]

Like I said, her behaviour off the board should not be relevant ON the board. That's just my opinion, nothing more. I'm sure many will be very quick to disagree with me. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif If she plays by the rules of the board ON the BB, she should not be banned, I don't care how offended or ticked off you may be with her.
I have no beef with you, Erin. I just happen to disagree with what went on behind the scenes of this thread (and obviously everyone involved will have a slightly different "version" of the story, that's inevitable).
That's my prerogative too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Also, Erin, I purposely left you out because I don't want anyone's rep to be tainted here, not to mention the fact that it wasn't even you she was referring to. But now, you have stated that she "harassed" you, and have now probably marred her reputation with your loyal fans on this BB, even though I know Tawna is a wonderful, friendly, dedicated horse-woman. Do you think that was professional and fair of you? If you wanted to correct me, why didn't you PT me instead of letting the whole world know that you and her had a little "tiff" off the board?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I hope I didn't get on anyone's bad side with my posts in this thread. I certainly didn't mean to. I, like most horse people, am passionate and will fiercely defend the things I feel strongly about.

Hopefully I haven't burned any bridges with potential contacts/friends. It's a risk I took when I filled out my personal profile and chose not to make myself anonymous.

[This message was edited by Lianne on Nov. 17, 2003 at 01:25 PM.]

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
If wanted to correct me, why didn't you PT me instead of letting the whole world know that you and her had a little "tiff" off the board?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because you made the comments about the "powers that be" and their "threats" ON the board. Why is it OK for you to make those kind of vague allegations that mar COTH's reputation on the BB, but not OK for me to respond?

If you'll notice, all I said initially was that Tawna's behavior was inappropriate, and I would have left it at that. But I'm not going to let you imply that Tawna is somehow being treated unfairly just because she wasn't "agreeable" or we had a "tiff." And if my clarifying the situation causes Tawna's reputation to be tarnished, well, you shouldn't have brought it up in the first place if you didn't want all the details to be known.

In the interest of full disclosure, and because I don't want to let people's imaginations run wild as to what I consider "harrassment"... Tawna emailed me last week and asked to speak with me by phone. Before I could respond to the email, she obtained my phone number (which is not provided on the BB, and for a reason) and called MY HOME. I was not there to answer the call, but responded via email later and told her I was happy to discuss whatever issues she had over email. Not on the phone.

The next day, I received about 10 emails from Tawna in the span of an hour or two. After reiterating that I was happy to listen to her concerns over email, but would not make myself available to discuss them on the phone, I received FOUR phone calls to my home (all of which went unanswered) after 10:30 PM.

I consider that behavior highly inappropriate, and if it had continued, would have removed Tawna's posting privileges. Participation here is a privilege, not a right, and if people aren't going to play by the rules that COTH has established, they're not going to be allowed to play. Simple as that.

[aurum]

Sorry Lianne but YOU cannot attack the moderator officially on this forum and then think you can get an answer back in a private message. What is good for the goose is also good for the ganter we say here in Germany.

This thread is getting out of hand and I feel like being in a revival of the Oldenburg thread.


Chocolate anyone? May I join the cave people with caramelized pecan nuts and vodka?

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[Roisin]

Wow...been watching this train wreck for a week now!

Speaking as one who has no strong feelings one way or the other about ASBs, the representatives of the new registry have not done themselves (or their project) any favors on this thread. When you are trying to break into a market with something new/unusual/unproven, you'd better be well prepared to handle naysayers and doubters. A lot of the critisism in this thread is very constructive...even if the subjects of it don't like the delivery.

[Lianne]

I was not attacking Erin, I mentioned NOBODY, purposely. It actually was not Erin that she spoke to me about (in regarding that particular exchange, the one I referred to). However, Erin knows who I mean, and therefore got defensive.
I remained vague for that very reason, Erin. I wanted people to know why Tawna was not responding. And it was a threat (you say offer, I say threat.. tomayto, tomahto).

Now I see, you're absolutely right, it was wrong of me to mention that. It did much more harm than good. My apologies to everyone involved.

[equestrielle]

Ugh, I am and have been a board moderator (not on this one obviously) on an active message board, and let me tell you, it's a thankless job.

I do think we have made some constructive suggestions for the new registry, and they can do with them what they will:

1. Show the saddlebreds in a sporthorse pose, with sporthorse type descriptions (not high knee action, that doesn't do it). This will go a long way to attracting the sporthorse market.

2. Show some foal pics and publish any show results of offspring or competing horses.

3. State specifically what the saddlebred part of the cross brings to the breed -- temperament, lightness, hardiness? Those are some things I can think of that are excellent attributes of the ASB.

As I mentioned before, the National Show Horse took off when they won everything in half Arabian english pleasure and costume. They are a superior cross for half-Arab show horses. So, it may be that when these sport crossed ASBs start showing up in greater numbers, win, and get some publicity, they do may get some praise and become popular.

[Lianne]

Thank you, equestrielle. Those were good, solid, critiques. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[mbp]

I like ASBs. I started riding at a barn that was primarily ASB and in Evansville, IN - if you go to "riding stables" chances are pretty high you will end up at an ASB barn (DeLovely, near here, produces top 10 Eq Riders every year).

That said and reaching the point of reading exhaustion on this thread - no, I still don't understand what the new registry wants to accomplish. Rusti sums it pretty well. The absolute animosity towards questions puts me off. So far - there is little constructive input as to the the purpose, intent and goals for the registry and there is a great deal indicating that the founders do not deal well with people asking questions. Not too exciting yet.

[Lianne]

aurum - please check you PT's...

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
However, Erin knows who I mean, and therefore got defensive.
I remained vague for that very reason, Erin. I wanted people to know why Tawna was not responding. And it was a threat (you say offer, I say threat.. tomayto, tomahto). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, I was not being defensive, I was correcting an error on your part, because the COTH's publisher doesn't routinely read the BB and respond to comments. As a COTH contract employee, I think I'm qualified to respond on their behalf, and I do so on a regular basis.

In NO WAY was Tawna discouraged from posting on this thread. It is my understanding that she was encouraged to do so, in fact. So if Tawna is suggesting that she will be banned if she posts, she is mistaken. Whatever reasons she has for not responding are hers and hers alone.

The discussion of removing her posting privileges had absolutely NOTHING to do with whether or not she posted on the thread. It had to do with the fact that if she wasn't able to live with the moderators' decisions here, she was basically going to be "invited" to no longer participate.

[Lianne]

Interestingly enough, this thread has now officially gone completely off track, and it's still going.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tawna never said she would be banned if she posted. Just to clear that up. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[tko]

The absolute animosity towards questions puts me off. Said mbp

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifUmmm, sorry, I must be reading a different thread. What I read was the registry representative attempting to answer questions and then seemed to feel that most questions were coming from people who were just trying to discredit her and her registry . Seems to me, some of these people are using their questions as a guise, or she at least appears to think so. And the only repeated anomosity I see is from posters complaining about the organization. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

If you're interested in what they're doing, great. If not great. Now just stop your yappin' about it.

[showjumpers66]

I am going to crawl out of the cave for a moment ...

First ... I viewed SERAPH's posting history and she has spun several topics so that she can mention TASHR and included the link to the website. So, no, she did not officially start this topic, but she instigated it. That said, she should have been willing to take the good with the bad.

Second ... The website was what set me off. Janeway is totally correct. There is a right way and a wrong way to start a registry. If I had visited the site and saw ONLY ASB and ASB/warmblood cross stallions and these stallions were presented as sporthorses with impressive UPPERLEVEL dressage or jumping records, I would have thought nothing of it. If there are sporthorse type ASB stallions out there who have been successful in sport, TASHR did not do a very good job finding them. I understand that the warmblood stallions are to cross with the ASB mares, but it is a major mistake to limit mare owners to just a handful of stallions; the registry would be far better off if the mare owners were allowed to choose any approved warmblood stallion from specific registries if they meet TASHRs qualifications. I do not understand the inclusion of the baroque stallions - who are wonderful in their own respect - as this registry is promoting ASB/warmblood crosses. There is absolutely no way possible that this registry will be able to produce anything consistent if they breed ASB/WB/Baroque crosses.

Bottom line - TASHR should have done their homework BEFORE going public with this registry.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[tko]

I'm not seraph thank God! I'd hate to be in her shoes

[Lisamarie8]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tko:
I'm not seraph thank God! I'd hate to be in her shoes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

psssst...Erin doesn't just pull this stuff out of her cookie. She has ways of knowing these things.

--- "We're putting you on what we call sudden death academic probation."

[Lianne]

*knocks on cave door* Can I come in, please?? I bring Tim Horton's coffee? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif
Peace??!

[Galileo1998]

Lianne - come on in - but I think only us Canadians are going to know about Tim Horton's http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Bring your mare - maybe she has a thing for pinto Dutch Warmblood stallions http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Lianne]

LOL... oops, right. Forgot I wasn't on Equiman. I'll leave my gal behind, there's a very good reason she was bred A.I. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tko:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gifUmmm, sorry, I must be reading a different thread. What I read was the registry representative attempting to answer questions and then seemed to feel that most questions were coming from people who were just trying to discredit her and her registry . Seems to me, some of these people are using their questions as a guise, or she at least appears to think so. And the only repeated anomosity I see is from posters complaining about the organization. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gifIf you're interested in what they're doing, great. If not great. Now just stop your yappin' about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

NONE of my questions have been answered ...

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Half my life is in books' written pages
Live and learn from fools and from sages
You know it's true
All the things come back to you
- Steven Tyler (Aerosmith)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[showjumpers66]

Okay, back to the cave. Can I bring Steven Tyler with me?

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[Palomino Leopard WB]

Personally I have never seen a thread go on so long without the basic questions being answered. I don't think anyone is attacking the ASB horses, my mother showed them and I grew up with them myself. Many of them are really nice horses and others are not, just as with any breed of horse.
The initial questions were, why a new registry? Would these horses not fit into other registries out there already such as IRC and NSH? And why the particular stallions were chosen. Are they the best of their breed, excelled in competition produced superior offspring? And that did not seem to be answered with any clarity.
Also my question would be why have a book III with baroque stallions? How will they enter into the breed?
These are not personal attacks just things written on a Perhaps Tawna should get in here and answer these questions as it is her registry.

[fleur]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fleur:
i just don't understand what whoever runs this registry is hoping to accomplish with these crosses of halter, baroque, and warmblood... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i started this thread (and no i was not trolling, i really was curious) with this question and it has not yet been answered. just wanted to make that clear http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[tko]

erin's magic ball isn't working in this instance. I may know seraph but I'm not seraph.

I believe she said she'd be happy to answer questions thaat were emailed to the registry. And I believe she said why... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[mbp]

TKO - I think you have been reading a different thread http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

And whichever one you were reading - well heck -

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now just stop your yappin' about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Nah - I'd never say that. Go on and yap (and loan SERAPH some new shoes too forgoshsakes) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Do you need your own loincloth for the cave?

[MdLib]

Are you Tawna King, then?

The website is vague, there are no facts. If I were you, I'd take this thread and try to incorporate these questions into the website.

Man, you guys missed a hell of a PR opportunity here by taking your toys and going home.

[ASB Stars]

Hey all of you cave dwellers !!!

I have given SERIOUS consideration to joining you- and I have several bottles of Grey Goose. Oh, and I bake really great oatmeal raisin cookies, so if after reading this, you think I am OK, I may need to join you ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

I have, as I stated earlier, American Saddlebreds that I do sport horse work with- primarily dressage. I a not presently a member of TASHR, and I have stated in earlier posts my stance on all of that. However, like so many of us, I AM passionate about my breed.

In that light, I shot some very informal pix of one of my horses, both "parked out" and in a more "sport horse" stance. I believe that these shots show some of the differences that change of position can make in conformation.

I would appreciate a proactive, upbeat discussion of what you see as the differences. I am not putting my horse out there as being the prototypical sport horse- and in the interest of full disclosure, I will state that he is a stallion, he is NOT for sale, and he does NOT stand publicly at stud. He is not a part of the TASHR program- no advertising here !!!

I will be happy to answer any questions that are helpful to the discussion about this horse, or any ASB for that matter. I believe that by discussing openly, and in a positive framework, we all learn and grow. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The link is below. The top two shots are "show horse" The same horse is standing "sport horse" below. Pardon my photo skills ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Julie

www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/horseviewer.php?hid=11 (http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/horseviewer.php?hid=11)

[MdLib]

Hmm, it won't let me in your album, ASBStars.

I'll have to get a photo of an ASB/TB that I ride, she's put together very nicely.

No ASB bias here.

WOW! It's working, so I'm editing this to say he is NICE.


[This message was edited by Moonkitty on Nov. 17, 2003 at 04:17 PM.]

[This message was edited by Moonkitty on Nov. 18, 2003 at 02:48 PM.]

[Lianne]

The website seems to be down, Julie. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Edited : It's working now!

[tko]

I'm not either one. I'm not with the registry. I'm a friend of seraph's.

I know they've both worked hard to make this registry come together and I just hate seeing them treated this way.

If your interested in knowing more about it you should contact them. I know that would be your best bet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Janeway]

The site worked fine for me!

I like him much better in the sporthorse stance myself http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif He looks like fun! Does he jump ASBStar?

Also I have to say I can see why the KWPN wanted to try crossing ASB's with their Gelderlanders: I can see quite a few similarities in type.

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

[Lianne]

Now if THAT isn't a short back, I dunno what is.
Nice boy, Julie. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[phone sneakers]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lisamarie8:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tko:
I'm not seraph thank God! I'd hate to be in her shoes<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

psssst...Erin doesn't just pull this stuff out of her cookie. She has ways of knowing these things.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

pull it out of her cookie? isn't this a pg board???

[Erin]

If you're not Seraph, then the two of you are sharing the same computer...

[Lianne]

So we're back to that now, are we? Great, so now we all know Erin can trace ISP's.
It could still be a friend of hers you know. I have people checking their mail on my computer sometimes, one of whom actually does read COTH (but hasn't registered). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[tko]

Correct.

[Lianne]

Julie - I want to know what you're doing with your talented boys (Preferred, Borealis)! Are they going to be aimed towards Dressage or Jumping? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Erin]

Well then, I'm glad it takes the efforts of TWO people to ignore perfectly valid questions.

"Question" does not equal "denigrate," you know.

[Galileo1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
So we're back to that now, are we? Great, so now we all know Erin can trace ISP's.
It could still be a friend of hers you know. I have people checking their mail on my computer sometimes, one of whom actually does read COTH (but hasn't registered). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lianne - get back in the cave, it's safe here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Lianne]

Ahem, trying to redirect the thread to relevant stuff, if that's okay:

Julie, why in the world didn'T you post a link to this guy??
http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/horseviewer.php?hid=12 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
He's lovely!! Everyone, please go look at him!!!

[Lianne]

oops... *skitters back in, spilling her coffee*
OWWWW!!!!! DAGNABIT! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[Everythingbutwings]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Interestingly enough, this thread has now officially gone completely off track, and it's still going <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And the questions still have not been answered and yes, tracing ISP's is a not a very heartwarming but sometimes neccessary function of being a responsible moderator.

I remember when M_J was around and logged on as an alter to support her ranting and wild accusations of unfairness, ill treatment (HAH! From HER!) and tried to add weight to her arguements of rational behavior by becoming "One Who Was There".

I think that it is a really rotten part of being a moderator, having to work so hard at keeping a fair and unbiased approach to making sure we all play nice, no matter what the mod's own preferences are.

Agreeing with the moderator isn't neccessary. I certianly don't all the time. Complaining about the free ride that COTH gives us all, however, and complaining that, as a member basically promoting your business, you are being picked on is ludicrous.

It is very easy to do a search for *SERAPH* and to see exactly the slant that almost every topic this member has posted on has taken. Do a search on topics I have posted on (or most of the other members) and you come up with a wide range of interests, concerns and a shared common interest.

Lianne, the topic has gone way off track and the very people who could have easily and welcomingly answered the original question have prolonged it by evasiveness, backbiting and threats.

Not a shining moment in BB history, but some of the best topics have had the same origins. Many of us have learned far more about ASB's and their capabilities because of this topic. I, for one, would love to understand more about early ASB bloodlines and (like the Lippet Morgans) efforts to bring them back to true type.

I am a bloodline/pedigree nut. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I love all horses.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Lianne]

*shoves a double fudge cookie down EBW's throat*

Come sit in the cave, ssshh!!!

LMAO http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Erin]

For once, I will agree with Lianne. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Two Socks is gorgeous! Is he full ASB? What does he do? Very very nice... as is the stallion who was posted earlier. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Lianne]

*pokes her head out of the cave*

Full ASB, baby!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galileo1998:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
So we're back to that now, are we? Great, so now we all know Erin can trace ISP's.
It could still be a friend of hers you know. I have people checking their mail on my computer sometimes, one of whom actually does read COTH (but hasn't registered). http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lianne - get back in the cave, it's safe here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, sorry, I'm voting her off the island... err... out of the cave.

Lianne, you accuse others of being contentious, but you have been, hands-down, the biggest instigator of off-topic contention for the past 3 or 4 pages of the thread. You throw out the bait and you then deride people for taking it?

Let me just say that if I was in Erin's shoes, Tawna's posting privileges would have been revoked the SECOND she called my house after being told specifically not to do so. And after 10:30pm? Not only would she have been banned, she would have heard some choice words from me first. So be glad that I'm not Erin, and go find someone else to chastise. There are certainly more deserving folks out there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

cbrand- I'm tired of this topic, I'm going to agree to disagree, but your horse is lovely and I'd feel privileged to ride him if I'm ever in Colorado.

~formerly Master Tally~

[wanderlust]

dammit, in the time it took me to avoid my boss and type out the above reply, everyone got all lovey-dovey. I hate it when that happens! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

~formerly Master Tally~

[Everythingbutwings]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>shoves a double fudge cookie down EBW's throat <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lianne is the FAVORITE! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I am so easily purchased.

That Two Socks is undeniably gorgeous. I think it is safe to say that he would have a welcome home in any of our barns. (he is chocolate, too!)

Honest, I would very much like to know more about ASB bloodlines and the history. Can any of you point me to a good text or two?

I still am entranced with the Kenny Wheeler as a special contributor to the COTH idea, as well. If only he could be approached with the concept of a series of articles on showing ASB's, Hackney's, Hunters, etc. How illuminating it could be to hear it from one of the best known horsemen of our time.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[PeriwinkleBlue]

Uneducated as I admittedly am, does anyone here think that Two Socks (who is sooo yummy) would be a good cross for my filly? Basically, do you think he would add some bone to her slim frame, and possibly improve her athleticism? (She's a lazy bum.)

http://www.phototalk.net/photos/data/3358/251arialeft.jpg

Now see, this thread HAS done some good - I would never have even considered breeding to an ASB before this whole thing! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I'm trying to learn as much as I can about breeds and the possibilities of cross-breeding.

Now that everyone is getting nicer, I feel a little more confident in posting here. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Halcyon

P.S. Can I pleeeeease have some of those caramelized nuts? YUM!!

[Everythingbutwings]

Oh!

I, along with many of you, grew up devouring the Dorothy Lyons books. Many of them, especially the early ones, were about saddlebreds. Silver Birch, Midnight Moon and Golden Soveriegn certianly weren't about TB's or their ilk, but the heroine and horses rode and jumped and drove. Ms. Lyons switched off to write Copper Khan in the same series.

Harlequin Hulabaloo was definately about Saddlebreds. 5 and 3 gaited, driving vs riding and the beginning of the end of the color bias against pintos.

Her later books were about Appaloosas (Bright Wampum), QH (Blue Smoke), eventers (Smoke Rings and Java Jive), Mustangs (Dark Sunshine) and one of my favorites, California Polo (Red Embers)

It is with deep regret that I have lost several of the old texts and can't locate the ones that were in my 1970's era high school library. They go for astronomical prices on the internet, due in part to the illustrations.

I love my books. If I win the lottery, I will go on a search with Kryswn to replace my beloved stories. Inverness will come with us and we will show her wonders beyond comprehension! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Everythingbutwings]

PB, let your filly grow up a bit and you will be astounded at the sheer SIZE of her by the time she is 4 or 5.

Andy's mature very slowly. (Besides, I think Two Socks is a gelding) Yes, a horse of his conformation ought to be a nice cross but you really can't judge your precious filly in her baby gawkiness. The gangly bit is her TB side coming through.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Erin]

Halcyon, you'd have to clone Two Socks first... he's a gelding. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sonesta]

Arriving late to the discussion. Just wanted to say that this fledging "registry" should be spending its energy learning from the criticisms how to improve it's image and the image of its horses. By becoming defensive and slashing out at your critics, you make your registry look bad. LEARN FROM THIS and go on.

Now, for the record, my barn has two ASB/Arabian crosses that do quite well in dressage (though neither has shown yet above 2nd level). Attached are links to photos of each of them. The chestnut began his dressage career at age 10 (he's 12 now) and just might make it to FEI. The gray started her dressage career at 15 and, at 17 is a bit old to work up much higher than her current 2nd level. Take a look at them. They are not the giraffe necked, inverted ASB types you are complaining of. I'd be happy to have a barn full just like them.

http://www.sonestafarms.com/images/zendressage9.jpg

http://www.sonestafarms.com/images/moulindressage12.jpg

Sonesta Farms (http://www.sonestafarms.com) - breeding Hanoverian, Knabstrupper and Arabian sport horses.&lt;BR&gt;
"Find something you love & call it work."

[PeriwinkleBlue]

LOL!!! Erin, I am such an idiot!! I must not have looked too closely - I just saw that he was male and figured he was at stud, hence the page. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I am embarassed...

Wings, do you really think she'll fill out? Because that's the only thing I worry about - how dang SLENDER she is. Look at her sideways, and she's big as a barn, but when she's facing you, she practically disappears! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif She's tall enough as she is, but she's so dang narrow that I could comfortably straddle two of her! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

And now I will shut up about her, because I know I must be driving everyone crazy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Roisin]

Lianne - I feel kind of bad that you have been left behind to be the lone apologist for the registry and it's founders! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

But bashing the moderator is bad form, old girl!

[Everythingbutwings]

PB, truly! Here is Two Shoes (http://www.tamarackstables.com/photos/2shoes/2-SHOES1.jpg) (1/4 Andy, 1/4 Perch, 1/2 TB by Cisco's Kid out of Brown Shoes) from a couple of years ago. I think he was around 7 or 8 then. He took forever to grow into his frame.

This photo was in a beginner lesson with my neice, Miss Aimee.

This Two Shoes is enormous and took a long time learning just to get out of his own way. Saddle Shoes, who you saw as a foal, is out of the same dam but by a full Andy sire.

Go back to the TSRE site and look at foal pics of Tia. She is by a full andy and out of an andy/tb mare. Very similar to your little girl.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[ASB Stars]

Dear COTH people:

My name is Soxy, and my Mom says to tell you that I give the very best Soxy Kisses, but, I can't help you in the breeding department. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif She also says that it OK to tell you that I have been shown in the ASB IBC, at DAD, and I earned a 72.4% with her. My show name is Infuriating, because Mom says I am. I won the class for three years in a row, but I was sick this year, so that upstart, Bo, got to go with his uncle Willoughby. Bo is bay too, so maybe that wasn't so bad.

Mom also says you should know that I was started as an ASB show horse, so you should know that we can learn new jobs. I have to work hard this winter so that I can go out at show next Spring, hopefully starting second level. Mom says I walk the fine line between instanity and genius, whatever that means. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Love,

Soxy

[PeriwinkleBlue]

Hey, she's exactly like Aria bloodline wise - 1/8 TB! Cool! And she's very pretty too, although I wish they had a front shot so I could see what her frame is like.
Thanks for showing me. I'd love to go visit Tamarack Stables sometime - they have the neatest horses! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
(Sorry for hijacking the thread - I'm good at that.)

[This message was edited by PeriwinkleBlue on Nov. 17, 2003 at 06:34 PM.]

[ASB Stars]

Erin:

Zoni (Preferred Poizen) jumps a bit- he is a caveletti machine as well. I am planning on trying to get him started in Combined Driving. He is very balanced and brave- so I am thinking it will be a whole bunch of fun.

BTW- for those of you who are at all interested in ASB bloodlines, (the rest of you might want to stop here...LOL) Poizen has 27 World Grand Championships in the first two lines of his papers, earned by his Sire, and Maternal grandparents. Zoni also won as a five-gaited three year old, before I bought him. On the top of his papers- he traces to some Wing Commander, and his maternal grandsire goes tail male to Stonewall King.

For all of that, I believe he simply looks like a nice, balanced horse, as opposed to some "shakey tail" !! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Thank all of you for your open minds and insightful comments- and especially you, Erin. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Julie

[Roisin]

I just did a little surf and see that there is a Half Saddlebred Registry of America and that the ASHA sponsors their own Sport Horse Awards.

Is there potential to expand or further develop this registy/award program? Would that be easier than trying to start up a whole new registry? Or has it been tried and the ASHA isn't interested in expanding? Just curious!

[Lianne]

mtnprlfan - thanks for the pity party, but I repeat, I was not talking about Erin, and Erin knew that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

*slinks back into the cave, glumly*

[ALF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Nothing shuts people up faster than a good helping of solid facts. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats why the latest helmet thread died as soon as I posted on it.

[Roisin]

Lianne - well...I'm not sure it qualified as a party (no cake or punch)! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Don't slink back in the cave yet...as an ASB enthusiast, do you have any thoughts/opinions about the Half Saddlebred Registry or Sport Horse Awards?

[Lianne]

Don't know much about it (I'm up in Canada!), but from what I've heard, the sport horse awards are kinda scoffed at. It's just not funded and promoted the way the show horse exhibitions are. The ASHA has also been approached to film a little something about the versatility of the breed for local TV stations (I don't remember who asked this, it was someone on the www.trot.org (http://www.trot.org) board). They never answered or acknowledged the request. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Basically, *chuckle*, they're just as hard-headed as some of the Saddlebred "dislikers": they really think it's all about the show horse and the rest is well, rejects...!

Few people realize just how rich of an industry it is. 5-gaited World Champions can command sums that would make a Voltaire son look downright cheap!! And therefore, in the big ASB breeding barns, if they produce a horse that doesn't have high knee action, that floats across the ground in a hunter frame, they probably don't want anyone to know about it and will cart it off to the nearest auction, quietly and inconspicuously.

Now are you starting to see why a sporty Saddlebred is so rare? There are lots out there, but many are probably sold at auction for rock-bottom prices and end up as backyard pets or Amish buggy horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

We have to educate their own BREEDERS just as much as those who are biased against them because of what they've seen. Like Julie said, Two Socks used to be a show horse, and now look at him. He probably couldn't cut it with Saddleseat breeders, but he looks like a sporthorse breeder's dream!

I'm going back to the cave... That is, unless I'm being too contentious for wanderlust's taste again. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[This message was edited by Lianne on Nov. 17, 2003 at 08:05 PM.]

[CuriousGeorge]

"It's just not funded and promoted the way the show horse exhibitions are."

Sounds to me like you're stuck in a catch 22. Until you promote saddlebreds and saddlebred crosses as sporthorses and get some impressive results at "real" horse shows, you cannot compete with the saddlebred breed show industry for ASHA's time, money, and attention.

[ASB Stars]

Lianne:

Actually, Soxy would make a pretty nice Park horse, but he makes and even better Dressage horse. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think that you have made some marvelous points about the ASHA.

Essentially, we get lip service from them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I am a great believer that you must participate- not just stand outside and antagonize- and work with existing entities to make change. Therefore, I was on the ASHA Sport Horse Committee...for about twenty minutes.

Until, and unless, the ASHA realizes that therir numbers are dwindling due to their absolute resistance to the idea of diversifying their marketing efforts- and even looking to consider a marketing effort of the level of the Arabians and the Morgans- have you SEEN their ads- not a Park Horse in the bunch http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif- all good old fashioned USING horses with people having FUN. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif That is what MY breed was...and they are telling each other that they are OK....and killing a breed in the process.

The reality is, for a horse that can be competitive at the National and *hopefully* International level, you need the bloodlines that are winning at the highest level of the "SHOW HORSES"...really. When I bought Moring Eclipse, the mare on the opening page of www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com (http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com) , she was in foal, carrying Borealis. His sire is by a WGC Five Gaited stallion, who is out of a mare that will be in the ASHA Broodmare Hall of Fame. Morning Eclipse is by a stallion with 11 World Championships to his credit, and to my knowledge, no American Saddlebred Sport Horse has ever received a score of 78% in front of an International level judge.

Bo did get the ASHA Sport Horse neck ribbon, as the highest scoring member of his breed in an open class (he was the only one- with a score of 72.9%) and he will not get any further kind of award from his breed registry. The way that their awards are designed, although he is signed up for their programs, they are designated by RIBBON placing in OPEN divisions. If I elected to show him in shows which do not have the *cache* of DAD, he could have been in the running- as it is, he is not. Too bad for the ASHA, as I see it. As a Marketing Professional- what I see is lost opportunity.

If Soxy had not been ill, Bo, who is two, might have stayed home. I didn't campaign him because I am not a ribbon chaser- or a believer in campaigning babies. I love my breed. I love my horses. I hope we ALL do.

Julie

[Erin]

A question out of curiosity, since I really know very little about ASBs...

What qualities make ASBs successful at the highest levels in the ASB world? And are those qualities that translate well to other disciplines?

I'm just curious if the things that make an ASB "good" in the ASB world are also important outside the ASB world, or if it actually works the other way around. Again, I have no idea what ASBs are judged on at ASB shows, but I'm thinking of something like animated knee action... obviously that would not translate well to dressage or hunters.

Just wondering!

[Celtic Witch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Galileo1998:
Lianne - come on in - but I think only us Canadians are going to know about Tim Horton's http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Bring your mare - maybe she has a thing for pinto Dutch Warmblood stallions http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oi! If he gets to be a CANAGLANDUSA foundation stallion, then so does Monty!

Aurum, feel like adding some colour to the mix? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mbp:
Do you need your own loincloth for the cave? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope, they're provided at the door along with shot glasses. Martinis are in the back.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASBStars:
In that light, I shot some very informal pix of one of my horses, both "parked out" and in a more "sport horse" stance. I believe that these shots show some of the differences that change of position can make in conformation.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

First, you could see his sporthorse type even in the parked out photos. I did not see this in the photos on TASHR's website. As mentioned before, I do not like the extremely upright neck found in ASBs nor the slightly catty gaskins. I would like to see rounder hindquarters and his hing legs look like they could be under him a pinch more (could be the photo, but it looks like him to me when all is considered), but he's definitely a horse I wouldn't mind having in my barn.

All of that is his heritage and as I mentioned before, he moves like a Matcho A and that's what counts.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janeway:
Also I have to say I can see why the KWPN wanted to try crossing ASB's with their Gelderlanders: I can see quite a few similarities in type. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They used a few ASB stallions on their Tuigpaard (Harness Horses), not the Gelderlanders.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wanderlust:
Nope, sorry, I'm voting her off the island... err... out of the cave. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As do I, and its my damn Dutch cave anyway. So there!

If Seraph feels the need for a sock puppet, its only fair that Erin call her out. And you do not want to know what would be said if Tawna had rang my house at the hour, even if I already hadn't already expressly asked that she not. Bad form.

But you can come back in if you'll bring some turtle ice cream with you.

Susie

[CuriousGeorge]

Erin, just like hunters/eventing/dressage, they have "levels" for different types of horses. In general, the five gaited horses sell for the most money, so every horse starts out attempting to be a gaited horse. This doesn't always work. If the horse isn't flashy enough to get ribbons in the "real" 5 gaited class, it might be backed down to 5 gaited Park and then to 5 gaited pleasure.

If it won't gait, it starts as a "regular" three gaited (confusingly also called a walk-trot horse). In the "regular" three gaited classes, the horses do not have to have a flat walk; they do more of a jiggly prance. Then there's three gaited park; slight less animated. A step down from that is three gaited pleasure; a step further down is "country pleasure" - either english or western. (I THINK that both park and pleasure require a flat walk.)

There is also this same basic breakdown in the harness classes, starting with Fine Harness and moving down to Country Pleasure Driving at the end of the line.

Basically they are judged on the quality of the movement and their "brilliance" in the ring. Speed is also judged, especially at the rack. It's a different world from quiet sedate hunter/dressage shows. People whoop and holler for their favorites, and the trainers come in to the ring to get the horse's ears up for the victory pass picture. Amazingly they actually get spectators at their horse shows, because it is exciting!

The saddlebred I know best is 20 years old. He started life as a five gaited horse and has worked his way down the line to his present career as a country pleasure driving horse. He is still competitive in his class at the equivalent of our A shows.

[lindac]

There is an American Saddlebred Horse Association Sport Horse committee, but they have been around for years and years and have done very little. Yes they have their year end Hi point awards and special neck ribbon that can be given out to the high point ASB at recognized events(but how many Sport Horse shows know about this or really even care. And do ASB Sport Horse people really care about a neck ribbon?)

They do advertise in Sport horse mags with a few mostly poor examples of sport horses,etc.(because they don't do their homework to find the good examples out there competing!) Their heart is not in it to promote the ASB Sport Horse. As an example, all Saddle Seat and WESTERN ASB's can earn their CH (Champion) designation by accumulating points over the years. An ASB Hunter Pleasure horse cannot. Why? No one was able to tell me except that it was voted down.

To them, the Sport Horse is the opposite of what a good ASB Saddle Seat show horse should be and is something to NOT be proud of .They would like nothing more than for us to go away. Never mind the fact that they produce way more Sport Horse types of ASB's every year than Saddleseat types.

They do not support the inclusion of ASB Hunter classes or Suitability for Dressage classes to their horse shows. If they were serious about Sport Horses they would mandate that these classes be included in every rated show, as some other breeds do. They will not do this. Those of us that have Sport Horses bang our heads against the wall every year in February at the annual meeting/convention. Rarely is anything new tried or accomplished. In fact it wouldn't surprise me in the least if the Sport Horse Committee would quietly disappear due to "lack of interest". When, in reality, it would be from their poor promotion efforts,lack of educating the breeders/trainers, and failure to present a POSITIVE attitude to the Saddle Seat folk about the Sport Horse.

As for the Half Saddlebred Registry (which is run by the ASHA), I have been around ASB's for over 20 years and I can say that I have NEVER seen a class for Half ASB's (besides the NSH which the Arabian people do). As far as I know that registry is just a piece of paper whose only purpose is to allow them to compete for the Hi point awards.

So you see, there really is almost ZERO support from the ASHA for the Sport Horse. Only the people who are actively involved with the ASB Sport Horse are going to make a difference at this point.

[Copper Queen]

By the way, ASB's can jump good.

I am NOT a troll. I am NOT a troll. I am NOT a troll.

[Lianne]

Thanks a lot, Celtic Witch. *sits outside the cave in the pouring rain* http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif As I've said, oh, I think four times now, I was never referring to Erin. Nor any other BB moderator, for that matter.
You enjoying this, Erin? Watching everyone slam me while you know full well I wasn't talking about you? I apologized already if it was derogatory for COTH in general.

*sits outside the cave with her mare*

LindaC - I thought the Half-ASB registry was just for show, but I wasn't positive, so I didn't post anything...

[Erin]

Excuse me? I never tried to imply that you were talking about me. YOU were the one who left it vague who the "powers that be" were, so why are you surprised people think you might be referring to me? I'm the one who clarified that you were talking about Tawna's conversation with Rob Banner, and I clarified the errors in your account of that conversation.

However, you've said I'm being unfair to Tawna and unprofessional, scoffed at me for tracking ISPs, and are now implying that I'm enjoying seeing you getting slammed and am allowing the misperceptions to continue even though I know "full well" that you weren't talking about me. Not to mention that Seraph knocked my credibility, and Tawna is going around telling people she's being "threatened."

Whether or not you have a problem with me personally, or were referring to me personally, I'm guessing that the posters who have commented would still think it was in bad form to criticize the people who run this BB just because you don't like the opinions that have been expressed here.

Anyway, all Celtic Witch commented on was your complaining about my "outing" tko, and Tawna's behavior. What do either of those things have to do with whether or not someone thought you were talking about me? Or were you just looking for another opportunity to try to make me look bad?

[CuriousGeorge]

"To them, the Sport Horse is the opposite of what a good ASB Saddle Seat show horse should be and is something to NOT be proud of .They would like nothing more than for us to go away. Never mind the fact that they produce way more Sport Horse types of ASB's every year than Saddleseat types."

The saddlebred sporthorse types ARE the opposite of what the saddlebred people are looking for!!! The saddlebred people DO want the natural knee action and a flashy, upheaded horse that travels with its neck up and its head on the vertical. I am still interested in the numbers behind your statement that sporthorse type saddlebreds far outnumber the show type. As I have already described, there are so many classes at saddlebred horse shows that with time and patience, you can figure out what each horse wants to do when it grows up.

I'm sorry to say that I continue to believe that sporthorse type saddlebreds are flukes. Some of the examples are lovely horses, such as the Two Socks horse. However, I don't understand why people feel the need to develop and perpetuate horses that are totally counter to the goals of the breed association.

[fleur]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
However, I don't understand why people feel the need to develop and perpetuate horses that are totally counter to the goals of the breed association.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

cg, i'm going to disagree with you here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif i think it is perfectly fine to do so because the more versatile the breed, the more interesting they will be and as a result the more people will know about them. i am certainly glad that no one decreed that the only thing arabs should be bred for is endurance, or halter! i do agree that sporthorse saddlebreds could be considered flukes, but i think that enthusiasts of both saddlebreds and sporthorse disciplines should feel free to try and combine both interests by selectively breeding saddlebreds to be sporthorses. this just makes me more curious about why the owners of this registry wanted to cross-breed saddlebreds with other breeds when they would probably do better to try and establish the saddlebred as a sporthorse first! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Lianne]

Erin - interestingly, you never mentioned Rob by name until now (you mentioned the head of COTH or something?), and you saw that people came down on me for "attacking the moderator" and said nothing. No, you didn't imply I was referring to you, you didn't need to: they assumed it. I never said you were being unfair and unprofessional, I asked if you thought what you did was fair, you were free to tell me yes, that it was fair and justified.
And I misunderstood, I thought Celtic was referring to ME being a sock puppet and defending Seraph.
Anyways, I will drop this. I hope it's been made clear that I wasn't attacking ANY moderators.

[JAGold]

Gotta thank everyone for this one. I have a stats project due on Thursday, an econ paper due Friday, and an urban development project due next week. So naturally I'm looking for ways to procrastinate, and this thread has been a hands-down winner over all sorts of scintillating options!

In fact, Erin, I have a question. I am told that for a class next semester, I am required to do a quantitative analysis of a community. Will you please, please keep this thread around long enough that I can make it the basis of my project?

And, just because I'm trying to be good, here's something constructive to contribute to the discussion: Montana Native, the pinto gelding that Jo Gelarden rode at Rolex and Rainey Sealey rode in other competitions, is a TB/Saddlebred cross. I don't know his exact breeding. --Jess

[Lianne]

And CG - here is a perfect example of why Seraph and others bang their heads against a brick wall when dealing with these kinds of comments: "horses that are totally counter to the goals of the breed association".

The goals have shifted from what they were originally, and we are trying to shift them back. This has been said SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many times, it's getting sickening. The ASB's of old were not skinny, inverted, hot and prone to lordosis (sp?). They were heavier, hardier, more athletic and better all-rounders. They were bred to do it all, have the stamina to do it for long periods of time, and have the style to look pretty doing it. They were used in showjumping, dressage, driving, you name it.

But somewhere along the line, prettier and slimmer and hotter and flashier became more important. Hence, what you see most of the time now. You claim to be experienced with ASB's, so how can you not know this?

[fleur]

jagold--i was curious and so did a search on google and found montana native. (http://rivendell.cc.uky.edu/Rolex/2001/pictures/jo.jpg) he is very cute and although it is not the most flattering picture it definitely shows his ability to jump big things http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Erin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Erin - interestingly, you never mentioned Rob by name until now (you mentioned the head of COTH or something?),<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, I mentioned the publisher... that would be Rob. Not exactly a news flash, as it's printed in every magazine and is in the staff listing on the chronofhorse.com website. It's pretty common knowledge around here who the publisher is.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>and you saw that people came down on me for "attacking the moderator" and said nothing.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I thought it was pretty clear from my posts that I was not the "power that be" that spoke to Tawna, and YOU repeatedly clarified that you weren't referring to me. So now it's MY fault that people misunderstood?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No, you didn't imply I was referring to you, you didn't need to: they assumed it<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again... how is this my fault?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I never said you were being unfair and unprofessional, I asked if you thought what you did was fair, you were free to tell me yes, that it was fair and justified.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I did, and I do. I still don't think it's a stretch to say that you were criticizing the moderator at that point.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Anyways, I will drop this. I hope it's been made clear that I wasn't attacking ANY moderators.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Right. So what were you doing to me in the post before this one? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Erin]

Jess, threads only get deleted when they're less than 2-3 pages (depending on the forum). I think it's safe to say this one will stick around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lianne]

Right. So what were you doing to me in the post before this one?

Why did you feel the need to bring that up, Erin, don't you think everyone saw what I typed?
I was referring to the "attack" that others seemed to be angered about. You know that.
I apologized for what happened, what was said, and yet when people continued to slam me for something I didn't do, even after repeated corrections on my part, you did not intervene. So, of course I got frustrated.

Could we maybe drop this now, and get back on track? Please?

[Medievalist]

Oh for the love of God.

Erin is loved (http://www.geocities.com/Paris/LeftBank/3807/)
Erin even has a fund! (http://www.angelfire.com/super2/muchlove/)

Time to jingle for my GREs! I'm serious. Jingle jingle jingle! GRE has been resceduled. "Technical difficulties" my donkey...
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

[Lianne]

Ooookay... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[JAGold]

It took me a minute, but here (http://community.webshots.com/photo/72643166/72643969wtlpRV) is a more flattering photo of Montana. I did not take this picture; I found it in someone's Webshots album!

Montana really is remarkable. He's placed second in a CCI**, in the top 10 at advanced level horse trials, and has completed one four star and I believe more than one three star, but I could be wrong there. He's a USEA Grade One registered horse, with 412 points. And now, in his late teens, he's going strong with a young rider. Montana Native is the only saddlebred cross I know of competing at the very top levels of eventing, though admittedly I haven't made a point to locate others. --Jess

ps. Erin, thanks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Wanna see what I can prove with f-stats and hypothesis testing?!

[Lianne]

He's really a cutie, JAGold. How did you know he was half ASB, did you see that somewhere or did you hear it form someone?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[JAGold]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
He's really a cutie, JAGold. How did you know he was half ASB, did you see that somewhere or did you hear it form someone?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lianne, I'm something of an eventing buff, and in those circles, it's actually pretty common knowledge that Montana is part saddlebred. Everyone recognizes him, because he's one of very few colored horses competing at the top levels.

Also, his breed is listed as TB/Saddlebred in the Rolex programs from the years he competed there. I don't have them on hand, but I'm 100 percent sure of that. --Jess

(edited to add more info)

Here's a quote from Jimmy Wofford's handicapping of Rolex 1999 (article from the COTH)
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>MONTANA NATIVE: pinto g., 15.3 hands, 15 years, Thoroughbred-Saddlebred cross, owned by rider.
JOANNE GELARDEN: age 37, Westfield, Ind.
PERFORMANCE RECORD: Placed second in the Fair Hill CCI*** (Md.) in 1998. In advanced horse trials in 2000, placed fourth at Fair Hill at Menfelt (Md.), third at Morven Park (Va.) and won at Millbrook (N.Y.). Completed the MBNA Foxhall Cup CCI*** (Ga.).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[Erin]

Lianne, did you or did you not complain about my "outing" tko? That's what Celtic Witch was commenting on.

Did you or did you not complain when I elaborated on Tawna's behavior on the BB rather than in a PT? That's what aurum was commenting on.

Wanderlust commented that you were chastising me. mtnprlfan said you were "bashing the moderator." As I said before, I don't think it would erroneous to say you've been critical of me on this thread, even going so far as to criticize me for not clearing up misunderstandings that YOU created.

Apparently there are people who don't think that's appropriate, and I don't think they were just referring to your bit about the powers that be and their so-called threats. The fact that you weren't attacking me then doesn't mean you haven't attacked me elsewhere.

And now you're complaining about the thread going off track when you're the one who sent it there. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Medievalist]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAGold:
[QUOTE]MONTANA NATIVE: pinto g., 15.3 hands, 15 years, Thoroughbred-Saddlebred cross, owned by rider.
JOANNE GELARDEN: age 37, Westfield, Ind.
PERFORMANCE RECORD: Placed second in the Fair Hill CCI*** (Md.) in 1998. In advanced horse trials in 2000, placed fourth at Fair Hill at Menfelt (Md.), third at Morven Park (Va.) and won at Millbrook (N.Y.). Completed the MBNA Foxhall Cup CCI*** (Ga.).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too bad he's a gelding. He'd make a great TASHR foundation stallion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Lianne, everyone knows Erin can see the ISPs. No big secret. Most BB work that way because that is the magic of the internet. Otherwise we never would have known that VATrainer was really Colin http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Time to jingle for my GREs! I'm serious. Jingle jingle jingle! GRE has been resceduled. "Technical difficulties" my donkey...
Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

[Beezer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Medievalist:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JAGold:
[QUOTE]MONTANA NATIVE: pinto g., 15.3 hands, 15 years, Thoroughbred-Saddlebred cross, owned by rider.
JOANNE GELARDEN: age 37, Westfield, Ind.
PERFORMANCE RECORD: Placed second in the Fair Hill CCI*** (Md.) in 1998. In advanced horse trials in 2000, placed fourth at Fair Hill at Menfelt (Md.), third at Morven Park (Va.) and won at Millbrook (N.Y.). Completed the MBNA Foxhall Cup CCI*** (Ga.).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too bad he's a gelding. He'd make a great TASHR foundation stallion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ROTFLMAO!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

[lindac]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I am still interested in the numbers behind your statement that sporthorse type saddlebreds far outnumber the show type. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you go to the American Saddlebred Horse Museum and ASHA headquarters at the KY Horse park,there is a statement on one of the display walls that only about 10% of all ASB foals born a year make it to be Saddle Seat Show horses. This is the Associations own numbers. I am sure that some go on to be breeding horses, some die, many are not registered because their breeders feel they are "not worthy". I am realistic and know that not all of this 90% are suitable to be sport horses but a fair amount of them are.

[WhatzUp]

Hi !

I remember Montana Native, Joanne no longer owns him and I recall him being 1/4 ASB. Rainey Sealey rode him this year ... he must be 17-18 now ?

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[WhatzUp]

HEY - Of course pintos are welcome in the cave !

Pass the turtle ice cream ... YUM ! This criteria selection process for CANAGLANDUSA eligibility is very difficult - and we want to have all of our facts together prior to emerging from the cave.

Of course I have a "thing " for pinto Dutch Stallions ... who doesn't ?! &lt;smirk&gt;

Yours in sport,

Lynn

Founder of the Pinto Warmblood Clique

[aurum]

I did not really like the first ASB horse, the chestnut one. He still stands a little out behind, the back is too long and that butt is too straight. Sorry.
The other one, Two Socks, looks very good, its bad that this one isn't a stallion. He could have been the one to improve something.

I went to explore the ASSH site and was disappointed to see the classifieds listings (when searched) do not list any colors. If I was going to buy an ASB I would like to see if I could get one in my preferred color, but it would take too much time to look them all through. Just an idea of putting the color in addition on the listing of the searches.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[Everythingbutwings]

Lianne that double fudge cookie is long gone and your favorite status is being severely threatened. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[ASB Stars]

CG:

I would second what you have been told by LindaC- I write bloodline articles for an ASB magazine, more to learn and network than for any other reasons. In chatting with breeders, trainers, and owners of the very top ASB show horses, I find that they really believe that if they get two out of ten that will perform in the manner that is required, they are doing well

Many of these people are open to the sport horse alternative for their not-quite-show-horses- but we need to build from both sides of the fence- we need to find quality prospects for sport horse buyers, and educate that group as to the viability of these horses for their use.

The big difference- across the board- between a show horse and a sport horse- neckset- the show horse people need a vertical neckset to win- two inches further forward doesn't cut it. AND trying to pick up a horses head into a position it is not built for creates cripples- and you do see alot of that.

As a rule, fine harness and walk-trot (three gaited) types don't work for sport horse stuff- too trappy moving, and they aren't usually built to get under themselves. The five gaited prospects- the most rare and valued in the show horse world- suit our purposes the best. Of course, generalizations are just that- and there are always exceptions.

BTW, at the time of her death, Sally Wheeler had a fabulous fine harness horse named Boutinere, and a wonderful hackney pony named Fancy Ribbons as her outstanding show critters. She also owned, just to name two- Special Entertainer- a WC of the 70's, and the immortal Tashi Ling- a daughter of Wing Commander, who won five WGCs as a fine harness horse. My favorite of her ponies of the 60's and 70's was Terry Jean's Souveneir- gorgeous and talented !

Julie

[SimpsoMatt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fleur:
jagold--i was curious and so did a search on google and found montana native. he is very cute and although it is not the most flattering picture <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry about the unflattering photography. I guess I was a little early on the shutter with that one. Since it was 2001, I can't even blame the Woodford Reserve, There were some other distractions that year I could blame, but that's a long story.

[tle]

Heehee http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[Pixie Dust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
He's really a cutie, JAGold. How did you know he was half ASB, did you see that somewhere or did you hear it form someone?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Eventing buffs always want to know the breeding of horses who make it that far. The fact that he isn't all TB, makes him all the more interesting. (I was wondering when someone was going to mention him!) My very first horse was a saddlebred, but he didn't really look like one, looked more like a TB or TBx. He wasn't gaited. I think he was a great low-level sport horse, but he wasn't "saddlebreddy" at all, so I have to wonder, if you want a sport horse, a saddlebred can't be of the typical ASB type, so what is it? Are you trying to change the breed? You mentioned the older traditional saddlebreds were heavier; do you have pictures of these horses? I'm just curious.

I also used to ride a saddlebred for a friend. She had two. They were not gaited, but they definitely looked like saddlbreds and they were quite striking. Boy could they jump! But I didn't think they had the ground covering stride to be really good in dressage. Yeah, their necks looked round, but where were the hind legs? Not right under.

The truth is rarely pure, and never simple. Oscar Wilde

[Fairview Horse Center]

Using the park horse "rejects" that look and move more like sporthorses may work very well as riding horses, but that is not what is needed for breeding prospects. To bring back the lines of Saddlebreds that are sporthorse types, you need to find individuals that have parents and grandparents that also share those characteristics. As BREEDING animals they need to produce consistent type and they can only do that if they have many generations of genes to "pull" from. Obviously the breeders that breed Saddleseat Saddlebreds are breeding parents of that "type".

Homework needs to be done. The old type saddlebred lookes NOTHING like todays "park horse". They were very similar in conformation and gaits (also heads and ears) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif to today's modern warmbloods. The saddlebred people were breeding them when Germany was breeding the thudmonsters.

Losing that type is exactly what I am afraid is going to happen to the Warmbloods as they become more and more refined, focusing on that extreme trot, extreme typeyness, higher neckset (does this sound familiar http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif). They are no longer breeding the heavier old type warmbloods, and when it goes too far, they will wish they had a base to come back to.

My breeding program works very well due to the multiple generation, solid types in the pedigrees. Nevada produces very consistant type because of this even when bred to mares that do not have the desireable type and gaits. See attached photo-pedigree.

To breed sporthorse saddlebreds, they need to find this base, and work from there.

Darlyn
http://www.fairviewhorsecenter.com

Are We Having Fun Yet?

[aurum]

Darlyn, but we do still have the old style/type breeds here in Germany. They are sponsored with money from the Government to be kept up. As you say perhaps someday someone needs to take one back into the refined breed. There is the "Schweres Warmblut" and there is the "Alt-Oldenburger". They are still bred today in separate studbooks.

http://www.gestuet-falkenhorst.de
Top class and exceptional colored German Warmblood Sporthorses

***Jealousy is the sincerest form of flattery - Maas J. Hell ***

[phone sneakers]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Erin:
Jess, threads only get deleted when they're less than 2-3 pages (depending on the forum). I think it's safe to say this one will stick around. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

what about the cored peach thread? that was well over 2-3 pages, and it seems to have been deleted.

[equestrielle]

Fairview posted what I was thinking as I continued to read this thread -- and we all get a prize for getting this far, I think.

Saying that a horse that can't make it in the show ring for the partiucular discipline is therefore a sporthorse prospect just isn't the case most of the time. That goes for any breed, as far as I am concerned. They make nice riding horses, sure -- but not to start a new type within a breed.

Some ASBs look like the European horses, and would make great sporthorse types. However, the stock being bred for the show ring would be from lines known to produce park horses, and they are going to have the same problems that people have pointed out -- long backs, trappy motion, and necks set on too high.

As I said before, I looked at ASBs as a possible sporthorse cross some time ago, and was looking at backyard breeder horses (show rejects) -- they didn't have the athleticism and bone I was looking for. Granted, I didn't look far and wide, just in the midwest. So that isn't to say those great sporthorse ASBs aren't out there (obviously they are, since we have seen pics here of a few) but they need to be sought out and deliberately bred for the sporthorse market.

[Janeway]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Celtic Witch:
They used a few ASB stallions on their Tuigpaard (Harness Horses), not the Gelderlanders.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

oops! that's what I meant! Thanks for correcting that Celtic Witch.

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

[ASB Stars]

I think you may have missed my point....

As an example, Soxy was bred to be a show horse, yes. Does he have a long back and trappy motion, definitely not !!!

The stallion I posted was referred to by one poster as being an obvious sport horse type- parked out or not. That is interesting. As a two year old, he was the highest priced horse of his farms dispersal, because he was a five gaited prospect, being ridden, and doing five gaits. He WON as a three year old five gaited horse. (all of this before I bought him)I watched him go through the sale as a two year old, and his trot dropped my jaw. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif He had huge, suspended, through, elegant movement. I watched 500+ American Saddlebreds over three days, and only one dropped my jaw.

I said that Soxy "could" be a Park horse- he never will be.....LOL. These things are not a mutually exclusive as one might want to believe....but here is the twist. Each of the horses that you have looked at pictures of has been worked as a sport horse for over a year- two years at the time those pictures were taken of Soxy.

Show horse training is all about "raising a horse up" and therefore, these horses are developed with very little or no topline. Correctly done,dressage is obviously the polar opposite. My horses do nothing but longline for months after I find them- developing a topline, and doing caveletti. These pix show the end product, if you will.

How many of us have seen TBs, or WBs for that matter, that have been poorly ridden and trained, and have AWFUL musculature and development. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Same idea.

I DO truly appreciate all of the thoughtful comments and "conversation" that has come out of this thread. Thanks to all of you !
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Julie

[cbrand]

Yet more on ASB sporthorses...

Check out this site from the land of OZ. It has a nice picture of My Privateer who went Prix St. George before he died of colic. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

http://www.standard.net.au/~pencoed/sport.html

BTW.. the original owner and trainer of My Privateer is Carolyn Bell. She is the one who helped me pick out my gelding. I saw a video she made of My Privateer when she originally went out to look at him. He was presented to her in a curb bit and western saddle! Clearly she was able to see the horse's true potential.

[MandyVA]

I'm completely impartial on this whole argument. However I worked for a short time at an irish draught stud a few years back and there was talk at the time of experimenting with crossing the full irish draught studs with some nice saddlebred mares. Check out this link:

Irish Draught x Saddlebred (http://www.irishdraughthorses.com/bellmanstock.htm) (This is not the farm I worked at BTW.)

Scroll down to the picture of Jumpin Jack Flash. Not sure where this horse is now, but he sure is cute! And he seems to have done well on the line. Bellman, fyi, is RID.

"No other relationship between humans and animals is as close as when one is riding a horse." --Justice Sandra Day O'Connor

[Lianne]

*comes back from WALMART with a cart-load of double fudge cookes*
Hey, I see this thread recovered itself, right on!
*shoves another cookie down EBW's throat* Happy now??? *lol*


p.s. well said Julie!

[wanderlust]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
As an example, Soxy was bred to be a show horse, yes. Does he have a long back and trappy motion, definitely not !!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think Fairview's point was excellent, and ASB Stars, I think you missed her point. If you are breeding for a phenotype that is classic high-kneed 5-gaited, you get a "whoops, not what we wanted" and end up with a great sporthorse, that horse still carries the potential and genes for producing the big-moving upright 5-gaited horses. So, if Soxy had been left whole, despite having good traits, he's got it in his genetics to throw the traits that sporthorse breeders consider undesirable.

BTW- please don't take offense, but I do not find the stallion posted to be of exceptional sporthorse type. I think he's got a pretty nice front end, but I really dislike his hind end. It does not tie in well to his body, is light, upright and camped out behind him. It doesn't really appear to match the front 2/3 of his body. All I think when I see the picture is "good luck getting that hind end underneath him." He still looks like a park horse that isn't parked out.

~formerly Master Tally~

[Celtic Witch]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASB Stars:
I think you may have missed my point....

As an example, Soxy was bred to be a show horse, yes. Does he have a long back and trappy motion, definitely not !!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, they haven't missed anything.

While the first horse is an improvement upon a typical ASB for sporthorse conformation, he's still not perfect and I would geld him. Two Sox is stunning and beautifully conformed, however, when breeding for SPORTHORSE TYPE, you do not just look at the horse you are breeding to. You look at their pedigree and its consistency in producing what you want.

If this horse is not an example of what his breeding creates in most cases, he is not a candidate for sporthorse breeding, especially not as a foundation stallion.

If his lines typically throw this non-ASB type, then he would definitely be something I might consider for a my biggest mare.

Susie

[Roisin]

Fairview Horse Center - Your earlier post on losing the more substantial Warmblood type was very interesting! This is a huge issue in the Irish Draught world...I did not realize the Warmblood folk had that issue as well. Once you lose the bone and substance, it's really hard (maybe impossible) to get it back. That makes me happy that we have at least a few ardent preservationists in the ID world.

Are there examples left of the "old style" ASB? I would love to see pics - old or new...I think it would be very interesting. Maybe that's the real direction a new registry should be going - finding and preserving the old style purebred ASB to use in crosses.

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Beezer: Maybe we'd get lucky and it wouldn't have a mane, either! That way, we wouldn't have to pay braiders. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Bite your tongue! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Portia]

OK, having plowed through all this --

Is it fair to say that the primary objection(s) some people have to the new registry is not its existence, nor its goals, nor objections to cross-breeding ASBs with warmbloods, but is instead that such people feel:

(a) the registry presents those goals as having been presently achieved rather than what they hope to achieve in the future through carefully planned breeding; and/or,

(b) that the registry refers to the horse it is attempting to produce as a "warmblood" when many horse people (though not all) consider that the term warmblood (capitalized or not) refers only to a select group of horses bred to exacting standards with verifiable pedigree over a period of hundreds of years, and that by using the term the registry is attempting to capitalize on the proven performance history of such warmbloods?

Is that a fair summary?

If it is, then I would hope that such objections might be considered as constructive criticism that could be fairly considered by those behind the registry and, if they find such criticism truly constructive, may help them to better achieve their goals and achieve recognition and respect for their efforts.

JMHO, of course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Beezer]

LOL, Midge! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

I am curious about an offshoot thought I had about this thread. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif How did those of you who ride ASBs in (what appears to be predominantly) dressage, get "into" that? Did you start off as ASB lovers in their more traditional role and then became interested in dressage? Or was it dressage first, then you happened onto an ASB you loved and your interest took off from there?

I've often wondered the same about anyone who uses a particular breed in an untraditional manner -- not that there's anything wrong with that! What it is about what is likely an uphill battle that appeals to that wonderful maverick streak? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

***** I muck, therefore I am. *****

[Portia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janeway:
A good example of a Registry created by a stallion owner who wanted to breed and market his products his own way is the Zangersheide Stud created by Leon Melchior. He didn't like what the Belgium studbooks were doing so he created his own, except when he started his registry he started with Ramiro Z and Alme as stallions and using many broodmares sired by Gotthard. So he _knew_ that his stallions were not only good jumpers themselves, but that they were prepotent for passing it on _before_ he created his own stud. And he does indeed breed Olympic Calibre horses! Several in fact http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Here is the website if anyone is interested: http://www.zangersheide.com/
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Ah, Zangersheide! Now there's a success story. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif But don't forget, Janeway, Melchior didn't start out by starting a new registry. He started a studfarm with a particular breeding goal and a new breeding philosophy, focusing on a few very select mare lines that he strongly believed in. Until very recently, the Z-bred horses were mostly registerd as BWP or Hanoverian, or Holsteiner; Z didn't exist as a studbook.

It was only after 20 or 30 years of producing incredibly successful jumpers, and after the Z horses were spread around the world, that Melchior applied to the WBFSH for, and was eventually granted, separate studbook status for Z-bred horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[ASB Stars]

Beezer:

I find that there are predominantly two types of people who fall in love with ASBs:

1. Buys/meets a horse, turns out to really love the horse, then finds out- OMG !! It is an ASB ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

2. Can't afford a horsie with a branded butt, buys and ASB, and says OMG- I LOVE my horsie !! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't fall into either category. As a child I rode pony hunters until my mother decided it wasn't ladylike, and that I should ride ASB show horses. I ended up several years later (parents divorced) riding my mare with the local kids who had hunters. To avoid abject ridicule, I taught my mare to jump, and then to do dressage and darn- if she couldn't out jump and outdo those horses. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif ( she is buried here at my farm, bless her big-as-all-outdoors-heart)

After college, I worked in the Equine industry, ending up running an Equestrian Center where we had five instuctors teaching- yes- dressage. By this time, I had competed hunters and jumpers- some of them ASB, 1/2 ASB, but mostly clients horses which were TBs and warmbloods. I learned a whole lot, then quit the business.

At this point, after getting a "real job, and buying a nice small farm, I thought "what do I love ?" and it was dressage and my ASBs, so here I am. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I also want to comment on the idea that there are "sport horse" ASBs and "show horse" ASBs. my earlier comment, obviously not well presented, was intended to convey that I think that there are extremes of type- but that, for the most part, if I take a correct, athletic, good thinking show horse, and redevelop him as a sport horse- you'd have Soxy, or something very similar. AND if I take Soxy, and say "It's SHOW HORSE time, big guy !", I could have a competitive ASB show horse. This is my opinion, after exhaustively looking at these horses for many years. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Once again, I can't tell you how refreshing it is to find such thoughtful opinions. (even if I am not allowed in the cave http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif)

Julie

[Galileo1998]

I'll let you in the cave...but you must bring more vodka, we're running low. And maybe some asprin for the hangovers http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Lianne]

LOL, Galileo. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ASB Stars]

Galileo1998...

I have found THREE bottles of Grey Goose in the freezer( I must be getting OLD)a batch of very yummy cinnamon raisin cookies, my favorite hangover remedy (Mountain Dew- glucose and caffein) and PILLOWS !

I promise to be good....my name is Julie, and I am addicted to American Saddlebreds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASB Stars:
Hey all of you cave dwellers !!!

I have given SERIOUS consideration to joining you- and I have several bottles of Grey Goose. Oh, and I bake really great oatmeal raisin cookies, so if after reading this, you think I am OK, I may need to join you ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The link is below. The top two shots are "show horse" The same horse is standing "sport horse" below. Pardon my photo skills ! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Julie

http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/horseviewer.php?hid=11<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ASB Stars, in my opinion, your gelding is much better put together than several of the ASB stallions of the TASHR website ... bring him to the cave!

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASB Stars:
BTW- for those of you who are at all interested in ASB bloodlines, (the rest of you might want to stop here...LOL) Poizen has 27 World Grand Championships in the first two lines of his papers, earned by his Sire, and Maternal grandparents. Zoni also won as a five-gaited three year old, before I bought him. On the top of his papers- he traces to some Wing Commander, and his maternal grandsire goes tail male to Stonewall King.

For all of that, I believe he simply looks like a nice, balanced horse, as opposed to some "shakey tail" !! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Thank all of you for your open minds and insightful comments- and especially you, Erin. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Julie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, ASB Stars ... why don't you start the registry??!! Looks like it would be far better off. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[showjumpers66]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:
OK, having plowed through all this --

Is it fair to say that the primary objection(s) some people have to the new registry is not its existence, nor its goals, nor objections to cross-breeding ASBs with warmbloods, but is instead that such people feel<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There having also been many concerns about lack of quality (i.e. not sporthorse type or movement in addition to conformation faults), lack of sporthorse pedigree, and lack of sporthorse performance in regards to the foundation sires. And, the lack of consistancy of the breeding program by including the Baroque stallions. And, the lack of true breeding inspections by well-respected sporthorse authorities. This is supposed to be their foundation and it should be rock solid and the very best ASB sporthorses that the registry could find ... I just don't see that.

Quantum Leap Farm (http://home.earthlink.net/~bsikkink/)

[Palomino Leopard WB]

Personally I am just amazed that this thread has made it so many pages and has yet to answer the initial questions.
Actually the further it goes the less the registries purpose makes sense to me...but I may just be dense.
Another poster pointed out what I am thinking...if the goal is to return the ASB to a heavier type then why cross with WB's. Then you are losing the pure ASB entirely...what should be happening is the crossing of suitable stallions and mares to preserve the heavier type. I think to a friend who breeds Morgans and has expalined to me the two types and how many are trying to preserve the older style Morgan.

[mountain girl]

I have only read through 14 pages of this, and am skipping ahead to post, so maybe it got covered.

My next door neighbor crosses ASBs w/ arabs, and drafts for dressage and sporthorses, with color. She has got the offspring branded w/ the AWS. So I missed out on why the AWS registry doesn't already cover the Americana's goals.

I'm a tb person, all the way, lol. A good moving good jumping tb is my dream horse. They serve my goals best.

But I do admire much about the ASBs. Many of them are phenomenal movers. My aunt sold one to the Poulins (Mike, the olympic dressage medalist and his family had a farm near us) and I used to take lessons there on him. ok this was 30 years ago! But many of the Poulins' students went on to be pros, training saddlebred and morgan national champions. One of the girls I took lessons with ( now mature, like me!) now breeds her ASBs with draft and warmbloods because that is what she thinks the market wants, also with spots and color included. But I know that personally she prefers the light boned horses over the WB heavy boned horses.

Back to my next door neighbor, she is clued in to striving for a short back and good back end. She is very excited about the Carnival line and thinks they have it.

So, to sum up, I guess I can see the ASBs being viable for sporthorses and think the Americanas could learn a lot from the comments here about their website and attitude needing tweaking for success.

from coastal Maine, where boatlovers rule, and horselovers ride.

[CA ASB]

I'm surprised that no one has brought this up so far. The breed standard as set in the USAE rules is:

Article 3502. Type and Conformation.
2. The ideal American Saddlebred is well-proportioned and presents a beautiful overall
picture. The animal should be in good flesh, with good muscle tone and a smooth, glossy
coat. Masculinity in stallions and femininity in mares are important and should be taken into
consideration. The average height is 15 to 16 hands and the weight 1,000-1,200 pounds.
Any color is acceptable; the most prominent are chestnut, bay, brown and black with some
gray, roan, Palomino and Pinto. HEAD - well-shaped with large, wide-set expressive eyes,
gracefully shaped ears set close together on top of the head and carried alertly; a straight
face line with a relatively fine muzzle and large nostrils and a clean and smooth jaw line.
NECK - long, arched and well-flexed at the poll with a fine, clean throatlatch. WITHERS -
well defined and prominent. SHOULDERS - deep and sloping. BACK - strong and level with
well sprung ribs. CROUP - level with a well carried tail coming out high. LEGS - The front
leg should set well forward under the shoulder. The line of the hind leg, in a natural stance, should be vertical from the point of the buttock to the back edge of the cannon bone. The forearms and hindquarters are well muscled to the knees and hocks. Legs are straight with broad flat bones, sharply defined tendons and sloping pasterns. HOOVES - good and sound, open at the heel, neither toed in or toed out. TO BE PENALIZED: lack of Saddlebred type, coarse or plain head, roman nose, round jaws, lop ears, wide ears, small eyes (pig eyes), short neck, straight neck, ewe neck, thick throatlatch, flat withers, sway-back, roached back, hollow chest, straight shoulders, crooked legs, calved knees, over at the knee, bow legs, rough joints, round bones, straight pasterns, splay feet or pigeon toes, contracted heels, base stance too wide or too narrow, sickle hocks, cow hocks, dished feet, lack of muscle tone, thinness, obesity, rough coat or overall lack of conditioning or carrying a crooked tail. These and any other defects attributable to heredity must be penalized.

This is the breed standard for the Saddlebred - now, some have gotten away from it in breeding some of the weedy things I've seen ... but some of you have asked about the origins of the breed. That has been the breed standard for decades.

Now, for a little bit about the bloodlines. The original registry was set up in 1891 with 14 horses - it then expanded to 16 (listed below), contracted to 10 and then they finally settled on just Denmark as being the Foundation stallion.

If you are a student of the early history of Standardbreds, Walking Horses, Quarter Horses or Morgans, you will recognize some of the following:

Denmark
Brinker's Drennon
Sam Booker
John Dillard
Tom Hal
Coleman's Eureka
Van Meter's Waxy
Cabell's Lexington
Copperbottom
Stump-the-Dealer
Texas
Prince Albert
Peter's Halcorn
Varnon's Roebuck
Davy Crockett
Harrison Chief

Now, for the QH people, the Foundation Sire is Janus. Janus was the sire of the third dam of Stump-the-Dealer.

Harrison Chief was a grandson of Mambrino Paymaster, himself a grandson of Imported Messenger. Harrison Chief was a trotting-bred horse. He was characterized by 1) his beautiful action at the trot and 2) his ability to spring from a standstill into his extreme speed instantaneously.

The Harrison Chief line crossed with Denmarks were the ones said to produce stake horses. Some of the legendary descendants of Harrison Chief were Chief of Longview, Wing Commander, Edna May's King, The Feudist and Gallant Guy.

These horses excelled at both speed and endurance. As a breed, their survival can be attributed to Grant allowing the Southerners to take their mounts home with them - and not seizing them as spoils of war. Lee's famous Traveller was a Saddle Horse. There is a wonderful statue of him - quite clearly racking.

And contrary to some statements - there have been ASBs and part bred ASBs at the Olympics. I admit, they are not de riguer (sp?), but they do have the capability of "making it."

I can understand someone attempting to start a new registry as the ASHA is notoriously short-sighted when it comes to paying more than token lip service to anything other than the saddle seat ASB. We will have ASBs at Equine Affaire in California this year - but not because of the association, nor are we receiving $$s in support of it from any ASB association. We are doing it on our own. While different from this thread (altho - this thread has been so many places, I can't say I'm off topic!), we are working to present the ASB as a horse that you can have at home and enjoy - not one that is a "hot-house" flower.

But I digress. Some of you asked questions. Hopefully this helped with the answers.

[CuriousGeorge]

"And contrary to some statements - there have been ASBs and part bred ASBs at the Olympics."

Please back up your statement by telling us whom, on what team, and when.

Also, I don't think there is any question that Traveller was gaited, but the Tennessee Walking Horse people claim him too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Everythingbutwings]

Great info. Out of those 16, the only ones I recognized were Denmark, Copperbottom and Harrison Cheif and Denmark is probably the only one I would have known to be ASB without doing some digging.

Here is an interesting piece, written by the man who owned Traveller before Gen Lee. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The following communication from Major Thomas L. Broun, Charleston, Kanawha county, West Virginia, appeared in the Richmond Dispatch August 10, 1886:

"In view of the fact that great interest is felt in the monument about to be erected to General Lee, and that many are desirous that his war-horse should be represented in the monument, and as I once owned this horse, I herewith give you some items respecting this now famous war-horse, Traveller.
"He was raised by Mr. Johnston, near the Blue Sulphur Springs, in Greenbrier county, Virginia (now West Virginia); was of the ' Gray Eagle' stock, and, as a colt, took the first premium under the name of 'Jeff Davis' at the Lewisburg fairs for each of the years 1859 and 1860. He was four years old in the spring of 1861. When the Wise legion was encamped on Sewell mountain, opposing the advance of the Federal Army under Rosecranz, in the fall of 1861, I was major to the Third regiment of infantry in that legion, and my brother, Captain Joseph M. Broun, was quartermaster to the same regiment.
"I authorized my brother to purchase a good serviceable horse of the best Greenbrier stock for our use during the war.
"After much inquiry and search he came across the horse above mentioned, and I purchased him for $175 (gold value), in the fall of 1861, from Captain James W. Johnston, son of the Mr. Johnston first above mentioned. When the Wise legion was encamped about Meadow Bluff and Big Sewell mountains, I rode this horse, which was then greatly admired in camp for his rapid, springy walk, his high spirit, bold carriage, and muscular strength.
"He needed neither whip nor spur, and would walk his five or six miles an hour over the rough mountain roads of Western Virginia with his rider sitting firmly in the saddle and holding him in check by a tight rein, such vim and eagerness did he manifest to go right ahead so soon as he was mounted.
"When General Lee took command of the Wise legion and Floyd brigade that were encamped at and near Big Sewell mountains, in the fall of 1861, he first saw this horse, and took a great fancy to it. He called it his colt, and said that he would use it before the war was over. Whenever the General saw my brother on this horse he had something pleasant to say to him about 'my colt,' as he designated this horse. As the winter approached, the climate in the West Virginia mountains caused Rosecranz's army to abandon its position on Big Sewell and retreat westward. General Lee was thereupon ordered to South Carolina. The Third regiment of the Wise legion was subsequently detached from the army in Western Virginia and ordered to the South Carolina coast, where it was known as the Sixtieth Virginia regiment, under Colonel Starke. Upon seeing my brother on this horse near Pocotalipo, in South Carolina, General Lee at once recognized the horse, and again inquired of him pleasantly about 'his colt.'
"My brother then offered him the horse as a gift, which the General promptly declined, and at the same time remarked: 'If you will willingly sell me the horse, I will gladly use it for a week or so to learn its qualities.' Thereupon my brother had the horse sent to General Lee's stable. In about a week the horse was returned to my brother, with a note from General Lee stating that the animal suited him, but that he could not longer use so valuable a horse in such times, unless it was his own; that if he (my brother) would not sell, please to keep the horse, with many thanks. This was in February, 1862. At that time I was in Virginia, on the sick list from a long and severe attack of camp fever, contracted in the campaign on Big Sewell mountains. My brother wrote me of General Lee's desire to have the horse, and asked me what he should do. I replied at once: 'If he will not accept it, then sell it to him at what it cost me.' He then sold the horse to General Lee for $200 in currency, the sum of $25 having been added by General Lee to the price I paid for the horse in September, 1861, to make up the depreciation in our currency from September, 1861, to February, 1862.
"In 1868 General Lee wrote to my brother, stating that this horse had survived the war--was known as 'Traveller' (spelling the word with a double l in good English style), and asking for its pedigree, which was obtained, as above mentioned, and sent by my brother to General Lee."

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is no doubt that the Saddlebred that most of us are familiar with is very different from the Saddlebred of 80-100 years ago. Not much different though, is the common view that an ASB is a 5 gaited peacock. You have the stereotype of a TB is only a race horse and an Appaloosa is western. The more that is understood about these individual breeds, the more the lines blur. The all started from the same beast but have been refined and selectively bred to perform vastly different jobs.

There is no denying a tb is a better racehorse and an ASB is a better park horse but that is not to say an ASB can't run or that the TB can't drive.

Thanks for the info, do you know of any books about the history of the Saddlebred? I love my First 100 Years of the National Horse Show volume. It has so many lovely photos and descriptions of the classes.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[CA ASB]

CG - The gait that they have depicted in the statue, done by an artist who had seen Traveller is a rack, not a running walk. Since that was discovered (the statue was found in a basement at a university (I believe - not sure of that one), there has been far less claiming by the TWH, and none on their official web sites.

First Olympic competitor was in 1932 on the Gold Medal team for the All-Around. Horse's name was Joe Aleshire by Red McDonald and ridden by W.B. Bradford. He was joined by Susanne in 1936 who was also by Red McDonald. Others may be sourced out of the books listed below.

As someone said earlier - many forget to put the "ASB" part in when there is a cross-bred - so it becomes "forgotten" that they are contributors.

I'm also going to ask a question of the registry owners - taking a look at the site, there are quite a few spotted ASBs. How can you claim "old blood" when the spotted coloration is a fairly recent innovation - with some of it entering even after the stud books were closed?

Best books for history of the ASB are Susanne's Famous Horses Volumes 1-3 (pricey) and The Horse America Made by Louis Taylor.

[Lianne]

In case anyone is interested... Tawna free-jumped her 3 year old stud, Max, over the weekend. It was his second time in the chute ever, and he flew over 4'3" before they decided to leave him at that. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Also, there is a Palomino stallion at stud at Mirrabook Farms in Alberta named Gelan, Canadian Warmblood registered. He is 1/4 ASB. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just tidbits, nothing implied, just adding some info. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you look at pics of the ASB's of old, you will see some similarities and some VERY noticeable differences. The croup was still fairly level and the neck was set on higher than the average WB. However, their backs were short, their girth was deep, and they were much more powerful and muscular. More suited to sport than the skinny, weedy things we see today... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Janeway]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CA ASB:
First Olympic competitor was in 1932 on the Gold Medal team for the All-Around. Horse's name was Joe Aleshire by Red McDonald and ridden by W.B. Bradford. He was joined by Susanne in 1936 who was also by Red McDonald. Others may be sourced out of the books listed below. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm going to stick my neck out, but a single horse of a certain breed that competed in the 1936 Olympics has little bearing on today's modern showjumpers and/or dressage horses. The horses now are so different that its rather irrelevant that an ASB competed in the Olympics 67 years ago. The point is can they do it now.

Look at the Canadians for an example, they were mounted on cow horses in the 1960 games when we won the gold medal, but you don't see whole registries based on them because of that one extraordinary feat. Both the Olympics and the horses required to compete there are very very different now, and while once almost any type of well-trained, well prepared horse could compete, now its not the case.

Too bad in a way really.

But I think the thing here is, if the ASB's really were Olympic/International calibre showjumpers or dressage horses, where are they all? Why haven't there been a plethora of them at every Olympics, World and Euoropean Championships? Because riders are usually pretty up and up when it comes to which breeds excel at their sport. Back in the 60's/70's it was the Irish Sport Horse for jumping, or the pure TB in the US, then it moved to the Warmblood, particularly the Hannoverian, then the Dutch became popular and now its the Belgium Warmblood that many seem to be after.

I don't know, but I give credit to riders like Ludger Beerbaum et al to be able to sniff out the best jumpers in the world, and I just can't help thinking that if the ASB really were that super, someone would have started using them a lot sooner then now.

Its not the destination that matters, its the journey

[tle]

I've stayed out of this discussion simply because I don't know enough about breeding or ASBs to comment. However....

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
If you look at pics of the ASB's of old, you will see some similarities and some VERY noticeable differences. The croup was still fairly level and the neck was set on higher than the average WB. However, their backs were short, their girth was deep, and they were much more powerful and muscular. More suited to sport than the skinny, weedy things we see today... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As an owner of a "skinny, weedy thing" who HAS PROVEN HERSELF AS AN EXCELLENT SPORTHORSE by doing far more than free jumping, I would suggest that in the future you THINK before you SPEAK (or in this case type). If you want any new venture off the ground, you shouldn't be throwing around blatantly off-handed comments, regardless of what you're getting in return because you'll end up OFFENDING people, not influencing them! Ever hear of taking the high road, for heaven's sake.

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[Lianne]

errrr... if you've stayed out of the conversation because you don't know enough about ASB's to comment, then how come all of a sudden you're jumping in claiming to own a weedy, skinny Saddlebred that's proven itself in competition??

Because you DO realize I meant "skinny, weedy" Saddlebreds, right?

[tle]

yeah... there's a way to influence the public... make comments intended to make them feel like idiots. Good luck with the venture... my prediction is that it will cost a lot of money to the founders and never get off the ground. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[Lianne]

*lol* Thanks for the words of encouragement, I'll pass them on. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
I wasn't trying to make you feel like an idiot, but maybe you felt like one because you came down very hard on me in your post and now you realize I was talking about Saddlebreds, and not slim-built horses in general, perhaps?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[tle]

No, it was in the way your response was worded. Duh, I know you were talking about ASBs, comparing the old with the new. But the way you worded your post, you could be (and were) perceived as slamming all sport horses who are "skinny, weedy things". Thus my offense. However with that, i'm done. I should have known better ... No use talking to a brick wall. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

************
If Dressage is a Symphony... Eventing is Rock & Roll!!!

"All's well that ends with cute E.R. doctors, I always say." -- Buffy

[Lianne]

It has been mentioned time and time again in this thread how the recent trends in the Show Saddlebred world, particularly the three-gaited ring, are leaning more and more towards horses that are skinny, inverted, long and flat-backed with no substance. Unfortunately, it's gotten so bad that lordosis has become a serious problem. I'm sure most people who have followed this thread would very easily have seen that that was what I was referring to.
Sorry if you were offended on behalf of your skinny and weedy horse, tle. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[equestrielle]

I am confused now, but I didn't think it was Liane's registry anyway. But you are yelling at her about bad PR?

[Lianne]

*edited* nevermind! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[dassportpferd]

No, it is not her registry! Take a chill pill girls--life's too short to be nasty!

Where the Art Ends, Violence Begins.

[FionaJ]

But I do understand TLE's point--while it is great that Tawna's horse free jumped 4'3" and that does show his athletic ability, that is fairly common for my young guys and I'm not really sure that it is an indication of talent if that is what is was suppose to indicate. Isn't that what a nice sport horse is suppose to be able to do, and if so why is it so special that a ASB or ASB cross can? I'm not trying to be smart, but I am just asking.

[dassportpferd]

FionaJ--Yes that is what they are supposed to do. I think that there has been an indication that ASB's have not proven their ability to jump, however, it is irrelevant, as if you were riding in the 1950's and 60's and rode forward seat, you would be well aware that these horses were common and could jump. Times have changed, oh so much. I really feel from a rider's standpoint that a good mount is a good mount, regardless of breeding/perfection/registries. While we all know that keeping the breed standard is important, rideability/trainability/willingness and talent for the sport of choice is where my priority lies. Just because one has a perfectly built horse, does not indicate rideability/trainability, etc..... I have seen some fantastic WB's in my time. A small percentage of them were very difficult to train and not suited for the average adult rider. We can assume that to be true with any breed.

On another note, I have owned many imported Swedish WB's and must tell you that it is so nice to get aboard a common type horse. Huge warmbloods are not easy to ride--what I mean by huge is over 16.3h. It's damn hard work-no doubt about it! I have developed my riding skills to PSG, and have shed blood, sweat and tears to get there. I took my dressage work so seriously, sometimes I wondered why I even rode.
I have a friend who had this small mut of a horse--ugly as sin--but you know that I have never had as much fun in my life! That little guy tried his little heart out--every time I would gallop him, he made me giggle, because it reminded me why I originally loved horses. I havent giggled like a little kid on a horse in a decades!
My point being this: sometimes we take our sport way too seriously and forget to enjoy what we do have. None of us are going to the olympics anytime soon--so enjoy what the lord has given us! I think we all need to stop, reflect, and smell the roses. Most importantly, love your horse for the individuality and the time spent together. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Where the Art Ends, Violence Begins.

[Lianne]

FionaJ - err, tle's point actually had very little to do with Max's free-jumping and a LOT to do with jumping all over me because she thought I was attacking all the skinny, weedy horses in sporthorse land, when it was CLEAR I was referring to the changes in the appearance of the showring Saddlebred in the last few decades. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

dassportpferd - very well said. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Everythingbutwings]

Actually, Lianne, it wasn't clear. Your statement was rather vague as to which horses you meant. Just because I assumed you must mean Saddlebreds doesn't mean everyone else would have.

Friendship is Love without his wings
-Lord Byron

[Lianne]

Why in the world, after 25 pages of us talking about Saddlebreds and how their appearance has changed over the years and how they're trying to breed for the "older" type, would I come out of left field and make a derogatory, blanket statement about skinny horses in the sporthorse world in general?? I'm sorry, but that assumption just doesn't make sense.