A little misunderstood... Apparently a good thread to learn from

[Foxygrl516]

Well, I skipped out on classes yesterday morning and went on the time of my life. I went hunting with a friend of mine because she was riding her young (4 y.o.) horse and so her experienced hunter was free for the day.

Hounds were cast at 8:00 a.m. and they practically came off the trailor at full cry. Off we went! after about 45 minutes of hard galloping with no breathers, we had our first kill! They caught a coyote. They brought it up, and the huntsman asked if it was anyone's first kill. Caroline was kind enough to inform everyone that it was my first kill and that my friend who took me hadn't been blooded on her first. All the staff started yelling "ON YOUR KNEES!!!!" I was dismounting and my friend was already off and the hounds went at full cry again. So we all jumped back on our horses, skipped the blooding ceremony and ran hard for about 2 or 3 more hours. Most of what we hunted through had no trails, just lots of trees and thorns. Couldn't have been better!!!!

We ran first flight. There was the First whip, then Caroline ( who knows the territory better than anyone) then me. IT WAS AWESOME!!!

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy

[This message was edited by Foxygrl516 on Nov. 17, 2003 at 11:04 PM.]

[This message was edited by Foxygrl516 on Nov. 17, 2003 at 11:04 PM.]

[Foxygrl516]

Well, I skipped out on classes yesterday morning and went on the time of my life. I went hunting with a friend of mine because she was riding her young (4 y.o.) horse and so her experienced hunter was free for the day.

Hounds were cast at 8:00 a.m. and they practically came off the trailor at full cry. Off we went! after about 45 minutes of hard galloping with no breathers, we had our first kill! They caught a coyote. They brought it up, and the huntsman asked if it was anyone's first kill. Caroline was kind enough to inform everyone that it was my first kill and that my friend who took me hadn't been blooded on her first. All the staff started yelling "ON YOUR KNEES!!!!" I was dismounting and my friend was already off and the hounds went at full cry again. So we all jumped back on our horses, skipped the blooding ceremony and ran hard for about 2 or 3 more hours. Most of what we hunted through had no trails, just lots of trees and thorns. Couldn't have been better!!!!

We ran first flight. There was the First whip, then Caroline ( who knows the territory better than anyone) then me. IT WAS AWESOME!!!

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy

[This message was edited by Foxygrl516 on Nov. 17, 2003 at 11:04 PM.]

[This message was edited by Foxygrl516 on Nov. 17, 2003 at 11:04 PM.]

[Inverness]

I'm glad you had such a great time!

Personally, I don't ever want to experience a kill. Then again, in Virginny the quarry are foxes (I love foxes). I might feel differently about coyotes, however, since the populations tend to get out of control and they can actually pose a threat to pets and livestock. Better a death by hounds than being hit by a car or being wounded by some yahoo with a shotgun and no tracking skill (or inclination).

On the other hand, we are encroaching on their homes with our suburban sprawl, etc.

Ugh, what a tough issue; good arguments on both sides.

For me it is all about the thrill of the chase

_____________________________
A person is prohibited to eat until he first feeds his animals.
- Babylonian Talmud, Berakhot 40a

[Foxygrl516]

I know what you mean. It is kinda sad, but that is the sport. The best part wasn't that they killed the coyote, it was just that we had such a great chase all day. i could "hunt" for hours on a chase and be perfectly happy if nothing was ever touched. I think the blooding and all made me feel like I was being initiated into something secret (as silly as that sounds). haha. It was like I'm a real foxhunter now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Did I mention in my above post that I have never been so sore in my life?!?!?!?

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy

[Inverness]

I feel your pain! It was only the residual adrenaline that kept me on my feet the next day!

This Sunday is my second hunt - Monday may well be a lost cause.


_____________________________
A person is prohibited to eat until he first feeds his animals.
- Babylonian Talmud, Berakhot 40a

[FairWeather]

I've been hunting for 15 years...we chase, i've never seen a kill, or celebrated one, though I know they've occurred.

Glad you had a good time, but for some reason this is making me cringe (shudder)

[Hunter's Rest]

Been hunting all of my nearly 38 years on earth, been on exactly 2 hunts where there was a kill (one a fox - my first time in VA. - with Melvin Poe, no less! and one a coyote with Hillsboro in Tennessee.) Oooops - make that 3 - Old Dominion Hounds had the fastest best day in that wild wind storm yesterday and durned if they didn't run Mr. Reynard down and, ooops. Oh well, let's call it natural selection. He hesitated when he shouldn't'a. It does sound odd in the retelling but it really is an HONOR to be present with gallant quarry and hunters in the splendor of the protected natural lands astride a horse who enjoys it as much as we do. From the point of view of having watched plenty of foxes loll around, yawning, while the hounds feather around bumbling for the scent on a dry day, I know perfectly well how much they enjoy playing 'wily', too. Sorry Mr. Fox, yesterday you played your hand too close ...

Though some may say, and I'll agree, that only God can make a tree.
Before God thought of trees its said, his mind was on the Thoroughbred.
-- Paul Mellon

[Whistlejacket]

Foxygrl516 -

Glad you had such a great time.

One suggestion...and in making this, I will likely get jumped on...but I will go ahead and make it anyway.

Would you consider changing the name of this thread from its current title of "My first kill!"?

I only considered asking because in your second post it sounds as though the thrill for you was in the chase not the kill.

Indeed, for most foxhunters, the thrill is in the chase, and many folks I know are rooting for the fox/coyote. IMHO, the title in its current format misrepresents the sport.

As I said before, I am likely to get jumped on for bringing this up. Believe me, I have heard (and myself made) all the arguments and discussions before, so no problem. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I am an avid (non-drag) foxhunter myself.

Hope you continue hunting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[sporthorselover]

well said, whistlejacket. amen!

[Delphi]

Foxygrl516, way to have a great time! Many happy returns! As for your post title:

Don't let the Disney crowd rule. The health of the varmit population, according to Darwin, depends on culling. I belive this is so. If not us, then who? We and our kind have created habitable land from the forests and grasslands. Then these varmits move in... they were not there in the forests and grasslands in great number before we made this new habitat with all the edges and prey species habitat. We made this habitat, now we need to manage the populations that follow us here. I don't relish the kill; I honor nature, the hounds, the hunt, and the participants.

Its neat that you got to participate in this event!

[FairWeather]

unfortunately the public doesnt see it that way Delphi. If your argument worked to convince the general public that we are out there for the chase, There wouldnt be thousands upon thousands of Horses, hounds and humans about to lose what they love most in England.
I agree...the title should change.

[Badger]

Doesn't the MFHA discourage the blooding ceremony (and have for a decade or more), or am I wrong about that?

[almost star]

<<Would you consider changing the name of this thread from its current title of "My first kill!"?>>


Agreed. Title is most creepy.

* lost tb *

[YoungFilly]

Lurking over from the dressage forum. Yes, your title sure caught my attention! I'm glad other hunter people are asking you to change the title, but I am still disturbed by the ritual that you mentioned in your first post.....being put on your knees and having what, blood of the poor animal splashed all over you? That sounds very disturbing.

However, I can see people chasing rabitts and such in a hunt. Thats no different than what a rifle style hunter does. But a coyote.. you can't eat it, I am sure you wouldn't want to make a pelt out of it... so why would you hunt it?

[Dancing Lawn]

It's barbaric, especially the "blooding Ceremony"

less hard work, more fine dining.
www.dancinglawnhorses.com (http://www.dancinglawnhorses.com)

If guys can do it, how hard can it be?

[Big Belgian]

YoungFilly writes:
<<<.....being put on your knees and having what, blood of the poor animal splashed all over you? That sounds very disturbing.>>>

"Blooding" is nothing like that and some hunts dont do it at all. It's traditionally been a "rite of passage" so to speak. My club never makes a huge ceremony around it and CERTAINLY blood is NEVER splashed all over a person!! Members are merely dabbed w/a small smear of blood on each cheek, there is no getting down on ones' knees.

Unfortunately kills "do" happen, but that is not the usual. Why would a hunt want to kill the member of the chase that has provided them with such good sport? The first season I hunted, our hounds went out 74 times and we had a total of 4 foxes who met their demise. Three of those four were mangey and in pretty rough shape. They would have died a pretty miserable death had they not been dispensed of as quickly as they were. The fourth fox made a very unfortunate mistake and ran into a blocked silo.

Since foxhunting is such an old sport, that sticks to traditional customs, many ways of doing things have remained the same. Blooding is NOT meant to be barbaric, it is done in honor of the spirit of the animal.

www.artistichandstudio.com/tylerspage.jpg (http://www.artistichandstudio.com/tylerspage.jpg)

Where Blondes DO Have More Fun!

[armandh]

in december of 99 an extremely stupid coyote picked fight over flight. the first I observed after about 8 years of hunting. I prefer the sport to the blood but it happens on occasion.

[Just My Style]

It's called fox hunting... not fox chasing or fox watching. I am not saying that the goal is a kill, but I would expect it happens on occassion.

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[Xanthoria]

At the risk of upset, I have to say that going hunting but not wanting to deal with the potential death of the quarry is a tad short-sighted.

Comes with the territory, no? Surely if you want to avoid the kill, don't hunt? (But I do realise that hunting in the USA is a very different thing to the UK version)

[Foxhunt4me]

Well I for one would love to be in on accounting for the quarry. I have been foxhunting for years now and have only been on one hunt where quarry was accounted for.

The MFHA frowns on blooding - but ceremonies such as this have been practiced for thousands of years by different cultures grateful for a successful hunt - such as my American Indian ancestors. It seems strange to those who have been raised in artificial environments and to people who always have their meal come out of a box but there is great reverence and appreciation of a hunt where you are able to master an animal who is competing with you for food just as there is in the hunt of an animal who provides you with food to live for another day.

The coddled , the soft, the city folk can not and will not understand ( nor should they ) the thrill of the hunt and the accounting for of game. Foxhunting in its present form is far removed from the basic struggle of man against nature but for some of us it raises something inside, something that you may not have known existed in you that is part of human nature. We were created to have dominion over the Earth and its creatures and fullfilling the puporse for which we were created still gives rise to deep feelings in those of us that are still capable of them and that do not have our minds numbed by the din of the politically correct babble of the weak and the laziness of MC meals.

[Raven's Wing]

Wow are there some things I philosophically don't agree with in a couple of these posts -- esp. the having dominion over the earth -- and yet one little hurricane can wipe out large sections of us. But that aside because I am not interested in a big discourse there....

I have relatives that hunt. They hunt, kill, and use what they kill. Mostly deer, squirrel, rabbit and such. They are very respectful of what they kill and there is a definite purpose behind it. They eat the meat (believe me when we have family gatherings in Indiana you ask first if you are squeemish -- but my aunt does make the best BBQ Venison)and they cure the hides. But it isn't a celebration of death but a celebration of life and sustance. Now I am not so naive to think they also don't enjoy the thrill of the hunt but there is a great amount of respect in it -- kids are raised with a respect for it. (At least my relatives approach it as such.)

Farmers need to have "pests" kept in check -- such as fox and coyote -- that can be damaging to their stock. And yes people are part of that. But let's be real about what is going on. Very few fox hunters are farmers out clearing their land. And the fox hunters of old were not out fox hunting out of necessity. If it were merely about clearing the land of pests they would have had their minions do it. There is a thrill in the hunt.

I think what bothers folks is the glorification of the kill. I like the old Native American ceremonies of giving prayer and thanks to the animal for giving its life so that we may benefit. Somehow seems to pay tribute and respect.

Maybe all of this seems like trival hair splitting to some. I just think we need to be respectful of holding "dominion" over others and treat it with deference (sorry spelling isn't my strong suit).

That said I went on my first Fox Hunt this year and loved it. I very much enjoyed and respected the traditions of the event. And I hope to go again. I am fully aware that a "kill" could be part of it. But to me that would be a time for respect not "celebration".

Just one persons reflections. Maybe I am off base.

[Hunter's Rest]

Foxhunt4 me and Raven
- Sooo well said. I'd thought of telling Ms. Dressage to go do a 10m circle or something as she comes off as sounding like one of those that thinks milk 'comes from the store' and not a steward of the natural habitat, but, geez, you two said it way better. How nice to have a gathering of stewards of the land and the bounty that honor both prey and predator rather than tear up the land for more babies and sever our ties to the earth. Honor thy Mother, indeed.

www.huntersrest.net (http://www.huntersrest.net) -- Virginia hunt country's best Bed-and-Breakfast-and-Barn

Though some may say, and I'll agree, that only God can make a tree.
Before God thought of trees its said, his mind was on the Thoroughbred.
-- Paul Mellon

[fernie fox]

Oh my Gosh,I am horrified by your account of the hunt staff's behavior in this situation.

The MFHA does discourage "blooding" now adays.

I am sooo glad I was not there,I would have had a lot to say about what happened.

If someone wants to be blooded in this day and age,it should be done very discreetely and certainly not in some hooting and hollering redneck ceremony ,on your knees.my god where did that come from.

I hate this thread,I hate the title it will do nothing but harm ,to my favorite sport.

I was blooded when I was five years old,it was quiet and very solemn.

In my 50 years of foxhunting I have never heard of this kind of attention given to this ceremony.
It was known who, in the field would like to be blooded,and when and if the the occasion arose,it was done quietly and out of view of onlookers.

As I said earlier I would not have stood by and watched this disgusting display.

And no I am not against the ceremony,it is an individual choice,but should not be dealt with in the manner we have been shown here.

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

[This message was edited by fernie fox on Nov. 16, 2003 at 12:18 PM.]

[Raven's Wing]

I would like to qualify my "dominion" comment. My issue was in that one of the posts the way the term was used made it sound like it gave us the right to go around doing willy-nilly what ever we wanted without respect.

I didn't get that sense from FoxHunt4Me's post. Just wanted to qualify.

[YoungFilly]

Hunter's Rest are you calling me Ms. Dressage? Get REAL! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Look at the topic title and her post! How can you insinuate that I am being a DQ because I think its disgusting and disturbing to read what almost occurred? I don’t know anything about hunting, but when someone writes that they were about to be part of some weird sacrificial ceremony with animal blood, I think most people would be shocked. I stated in my reply that I didn’t think your sport was wrong when you were chasing something that you could eat or use.

Its good that Foxhunt4 me and Raven didn’t respond like you did, because I would still be in the dark, and thinking that everyone who did hunts were doing satanic rituals out in the woods, blood all over their hands and such. So, Thank you Foxhunt4me and Raven for answering my honest question! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Foxygrl516]

This is rediculous. I give up. you people claim to be here to share stories and give advice, etc. Everyone that I know that fox hunts was blooded on their first kill. Deer hunters do it, everyone does it. It's not a satanic ritual. you guys really need to chill out.

I had a wonderful time hunting last week and I can't wait to go back, but be sure that when I do go back you won't hear about it. Everytime someone sneezes on this board everyone gets offended and its really immature and silly. I am not a "troll" and I'm not here to make anyone mad, but when I post to tell you guys about the wonderful day we had hunting, everyone freaks out.

And as for all of you who "love foxhunting" but are so terribly offended by actually killing a fox, (or anything else) that is just so wrong. I don't care if I never see another kill in my life, but I'm not going to be sick about it if I do. It's fox HUNTING which implies that something is being chased for the point of killing it, and if it actually gets killed once in a while, so be it. Don't chase something around in the woods for years and call it hunting and then crucify those who actually kill it! The chase is certainly the fun part, i agree without doubt. but if you are so offended by killing an animal, get a kennel full of dogs with no sense of smell and go on a glorified trail ride 3 times a week. That way you can be sure you won't hurt anything.

I am aware of the fact that everyone on here is going to hate me now and think that I am nothing but a trouble maker, but I just don't see a point in a forum like this if you are going to be offended by your own sport. I would be happy to change the title of the topic, but quite honestly I don't know how. If someone wants to share with me how to change it, I would be happy to, or maybe a moderator could do it.

I am so very sorry that you are embarrassed about the purpose of your own sport. find something less offensive if killing a fox is such a horrible thing.

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy

[Izabella]

Flame me if you like.........any type of animal hunting is wrong!
Seems to me people who hunt always have an excuse for why they are doing it!

[FairWeather]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Just My Style:
It's called fox hunting... not fox chasing or fox watching. I am not saying that the goal is a kill, but I would expect it happens on occassion.

!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not true in my parts--officially changed to "Fox chasing"

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

[FairWeather]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hunter's Rest:
Foxhunt4 me and Raven
- Sooo well said. I'd thought of telling Ms. Dressage to go do a 10m circle or something as she comes off as sounding like one of those that thinks milk 'comes from the store' and not a steward of the natural habitat, but, geez, you two said it way better. -- Paul Mellon<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What an absolutely ignorant and crappy thing to say.
no wonder foxhunters have problems with an "elitist and inaccessable" image!

This is the attitude that ends foxhunting clubs.

__________________________
A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men...
FairWeather (http://www.fairweather-farm.com)
CANTER West Virginia (http://www.canterusa.org/westvirginia)

[FairWeather]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Izabella:
Flame me if you like.........any type of animal hunting is wrong!
Seems to me people who hunt always have an excuse for why they are doing it!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

well you are entitled to your opinion, but I dont think you'll find a sympathetic ear here.

Foxygirl, give it a rest dear. Nobody is jumping all over you, they are simply discussing a difference of opinion. Simply put, the title of your thread attracts the wrong kind of attention.
I'm so happy that you had a grand time out hunting--that is what its all about.
Kills happen, we all know that, but we certainly dont want to stick any fodder int eh craw of the animal rights folks who endanger our pasttime, now do we http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Delphi]

Foxygrl516, welcome to the world of politically correct foxhunting.

You said, "This is rediculous. I give up."
I think this discussion is OK because there is controvery in the world. You happend to step up to the front line and now you can step back, but don't give up.

You said, "...but when I post to tell you guys about the wonderful day we had hunting, everyone freaks out."
Well, some people don't like our sport and some people want to appease those that don't like our sport, and some people have replyed to cheer you on.

You said, "I would be happy to change the title of the topic..."
I have found true foxhunters to be most pleasant and agreeable folks. Your post is one of life's learning experiences and I am sure in a while you will look back and laugh.

I cheer you on and look forward to your future posts!

[Hunter's Rest]

Fairweather
I am sorry you think I am ignorant and crappy for suggesting that my reply to a dressage rider who, by her own admission, doesn't know anything at all about hunting, was stupid. I merely suggest that she lay off criticizing hunters just because she does not see the point. I apologize for being an ignorant crappy person. Perhaps you'd like me to turn in my hunt buttons too? I am hurt by you're pouncing on my. That is NOT the reason hunting gets its urban legend name as a snobbish sport. The fact that it was (formerly, natch) limited to horse owning, land owning gentry in the olde country is the reason it has that name. NOT because some country ignoramous'es like me are inflamed to be poked at by people lurking from other sports ready to pounce on us because of our version of sport. I for one think its pretty cruel to put side reins on a horse and longe him on a 12m circle for ages on end. Does that, too, make me crappy? I am seriously hurt by your mean-spirited comment and am considering the value of this venue.

www.huntersrest.net (http://www.huntersrest.net) -- Virginia hunt country's best Bed-and-Breakfast-and-Barn

Though some may say, and I'll agree, that only God can make a tree.
Before God thought of trees its said, his mind was on the Thoroughbred.
-- Paul Mellon

[FairWeather]

Sorry Hunters rest, I think it was ignorant.
Why not take the opportunity to Educate instead of alienate?
That MsDressage could be your next prospective member. Last I checked hunts were pretty much all in need of members.

additionally, I did not attack you or your ideals personally, simply stated that your statement was ignorant and rude...which it was, and still is.

[Hunter's Rest]

Ignorant to say that, like several other posters here, if someone doesn't approve of our sport, then they can go back to theirs? Gawd, I seriously reconsider my value here if I continue to get jumped by fellow hunters. Ignorant and rude. That's a new one. You're not very nice and I don't appreciate being called an ignorant rude person because my method of reply, with basically the same message, wasn't as flowingly put as yours. And ominously suggesting I'm chasing away potential members to my hunt is equally hurtful, with no other (visible) reason than to be mean to me for voicing my opinion. It hurts my feelings that you continue to criticize me personally, and yes, it is indeed personal. My name is clearly at the top of your posts.

www.huntersrest.net (http://www.huntersrest.net) -- Virginia hunt country's best Bed-and-Breakfast-and-Barn

Though some may say, and I'll agree, that only God can make a tree.
Before God thought of trees its said, his mind was on the Thoroughbred.
-- Paul Mellon

[Hunter's Rest]

Oh, and Fair Weather, sorry I don't have time on days other than Mondays (when i am chained to a desk, should be working but instead check out the otherwise fun frolic of the COTH bb) - if I had time I'd be delighted to educate anybody who asks about stewardship of the land and hunting rituals and honoring thy prey and providing cover for game animals and their food chain etc. Sorry I didn't have time to go on about it - thought my quickie reply was in solidarity and joined the other posters well. Sorry you don't agree. I can say that without calling you names (notice.) Why can't we just all get along?

www.huntersrest.net (http://www.huntersrest.net) -- Virginia hunt country's best Bed-and-Breakfast-and-Barn

Though some may say, and I'll agree, that only God can make a tree.
Before God thought of trees its said, his mind was on the Thoroughbred.
-- Paul Mellon

[FairWeather]

Yes, you are right, i'm trying to be mean and spiteful. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Hunter's Rest]

Why on earth would you do that? To anybody, much less someone who's just opining on a subject close to her heart?

www.huntersrest.net (http://www.huntersrest.net) -- Virginia hunt country's best Bed-and-Breakfast-and-Barn

Though some may say, and I'll agree, that only God can make a tree.
Before God thought of trees its said, his mind was on the Thoroughbred.
-- Paul Mellon

[Just My Style]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Just My Style:
It's called fox hunting... not fox chasing or fox watching. I am not saying that the goal is a kill, but I would expect it happens on occassion.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Not true in my parts--officially changed to "Fox chasing"

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That's very cool. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif At least you know what to expect. I just think that fox hunting is fox---hunting. It would be like going deer hunting and being surprised when someone shoots a deer. I don't particularly like the potential "fox killing" aspect of fox hunting, but I respect it and I understand that it can be part of the process. If you don't like it and can't live with it, then you should not fox hunt. You maybe should just fox chase.

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[Foxhunt4me]

Izabella,
This is not flaming - please give us some insight.

You wrote:
" Flame me if you like.........any type of animal hunting is wrong!
Seems to me people who hunt always have an excuse for why they are doing it! "

On what do you base this? Just your personal opinion?

I made a few comments and used the term ' dominion ' that may have confused some people.

Here is where I am coming from - as Christian, I take my world view from the Bible. I realize not everybody does, but that is where I draw my basic understanding of why we are here and how we should conduct ourselves. I realize that there are a lot of areas open for interpertation but in general I just cite a few basic items ( not wanting to start a theological argument in a horse foum but this is where I am coming from - so Izabella can tell me why she feels the way she does. )

- The Earth was created for Man we are not a byproduct of a chance mistake that happened here.

- Man was given dominion over the earth and its creatures - this does not mean a haphazard disregard for it but a stewardship over the resources therein and the ability to use them as we will.

- Man was allowed to kill and eat animals for food. The first proper clothing for man provided by God were animal skins ( tells me something about the anti fur and leather crowd )

- Hunting is part of this process as are domestic animals. We can use animals as beasts of burden and for travel.

- Killing predators and pests is not a problem.

If I took a world view that we evolved and that we developed from a history of hunter gatherers that helped us survive and evolve as a human culture I still would feel that hunting is a right that we have.

Its too strange to me that we have a culture becoming evident that wants to ensure that we can kill our unborn children and our elderly but wants to prevent a man from killing a deer to eat.

[Delphi]

The last kill I witnessed foxhunting a couple of years ago demonstrated to me the value we provide in "natural selection" of foxes. The hounds made the hollows ring with music in the pursuit! After the kill the hunt continued. At the end of the day juniors present requested the blooding ceremony and our "retired" honorary MFH was delighted to perform the ritual. The body of the fox was recovered. Its beauty and foxy character as wildlife, hunter, advasary, and menace were celebrated and contrasted. Bright eyes and ear to ear grins were proof enough of the honor of the occasion; I am sure you felt it and will be a foxhunter for life! Cheers!

[jetjocky]

Foxygirl--don't give up on the sport or the people. This is a controversial topic. No one is aiming at you personally. As you can see, passions on this particular aspect of foxhunting run very high. There's room for discussion all around, and some folks get pretty worked up over it.

[FairWeather]

Huntersrest, i'm being facetious, hence the http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think that what you said was ignorant.

I did not say that *you* were ignorant.

Big difference.

[Just My Style]

Question- Isn't it true that the young healthy foxes are rarely caught? Don't the hounds typically catch the older, less physically strong foxes? I was always under this impression. That under most circumstances (And please, I know there are exceptions) that it really is just the culling of the weak. True? And I don't know, that is why I am asking the experienced hunters- so let's not all get crazy! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

[Cinnamon Girl]

I guess what offends me is the flippant attitude that comes off in the original post.

This kind of brings to my mind the thread about the editorial about hunting wild horses. Especially the quote below by Iverness:

"since the populations tend to get out of control and they can actually pose a threat to pets and livestock. Better a death by hounds than being hit by a car or being wounded by some yahoo with a shotgun and no tracking skill (or inclination)."

You know, alot of people out west consider wild horses to be varmin too. And genetically, coyotes aren't that far away from everyones favorite pet dog.

And If I were a coyote or a fox, I would rather be hit by a car or shot and left to bleed to death than be ripped apart by a pack of hounds.

[caffeinated]

I have no idea... but my few experiences with foxes indicate that they seem to enjoy being chased. They probably hate being caught, but they have this maddening tendency of staying one step ahead of you, then popping out and taunting you while you continue to try and catch up. silly foxes.

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**
formerly known as grog

[Badger]

Foxygrl516, I'm going to take a stab at explaining how your posts struck me and possibly some of the other readers here.

You are obviously new to hunting, and your excitement for your newfound passion comes through in the first post, but so does some other stuff. Namely a lack of understanding about the sensitivity of the issues surrounding foxhunting in an era when the sport is under threat in the country of it's birth, a lack of understanding of issues that might bring an unfavorable light onto the hunt club that has welcomed you and the sponser who has invited you, and the reality of posting what most people consider (and has proven to be) a rather inflamatory thread on a public bulletin board.

Most dedicated foxhunters I've had the pleasure of knowing have given great thought to the issues of hunting and chasing and killing and sport, and they will be happy to have a thoughtful and indepth conversation with someone genuinely interested in learning about the sport and the perspectives of the people involved in it. Those of us who have been hunting for much longer than you have had the opportunity to are certainly not "embarrassed about the purpose of your own sport" as you said. However, I am a bit embarrassed that somone seems to celebrate rather than revere the occasion of a kill. I have had the great pleasure of knowing foxhunters that put a great deal of time, effort, and money into conserving habit for our quarry. On the occasion that a coyote or fox is accounted for, there may be admiration for the quarry and pride for the hounds who hunted well, but not so much for the field member who ran along behind. The blooding ceremony is centuries old but is usually much more somber and ceremonial than what you described and is not widely practiced any more as it is strongly discouraged by the MFHA. I was as shocked as Fernie Fox was about a description of loud cheering from the staff and you being told to get down on your knees to be blooded. I have never heard of a ceremony of this sort. The description seems to lack decorum and put the emphasis away from celebrating the hounds and honoring the quarry.

Those of us who are passionate about the sport, committed to its future and wary of the threats know that we live in a politcally charged environment where our sport is under threat from animal rights activists and where the sport is misunderstood by many people who haven't been exposed to it in real life.

For that reason, you will find that many experienced hunters are sensitive about inflammatory threads on open forums where people who often have no interest in learning about foxhunting but who have preconceived notions and personal agendas often flock to berrate the hunters without a genuine desire to learn or thoughtfully discuss issues. So as a seasoned hunter, I saw a thread by a well-meaning but not particularly savvy newbie shine an ugly and (by most accounts) inaccurate light on perhaps the single most controversial issue associated with our sport. If you love hunting, if you love the friends and masters and hunt club who has shown you good sport, I hope you will think about the fact that every hunter is an ambassador for our sport and the impressions you spread around can be lasting: they can inflame an already hot issue or they can show a more balanced view of the hunt scene.

As you've seen on this thread, people are not arguing that kills do on occasion happen. But if the kill was what it was about, foxhunting as it is in the US would have died out long ago as they are really relatively rare (many hunts will go many seasons without one) and if that's the real point of the sport people would lose interest quickly. It is a wonderful, fabulous sport but putting too much emphasis on this aspect (as your thread title did) gives a very inacurrate impression of what the sport is about.

Keep hunting, keep reading and sharing, but also please consider that bigger issues do sometimes exist and part of learning to foxhunt is perhaps also learning about the politics of the sport. If you have questions about how this thread went, you might want to tell your sponsor about it and she might be able to shine a light on why you got some of the responses you did.

[Quinn]

Badger ~ Hear, hear. Couldn't have said it as well.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff



"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

[This message was edited by Quinn on Nov. 17, 2003 at 02:35 PM.]

[This message was edited by Quinn on Nov. 17, 2003 at 02:36 PM.]

[Delphi]

"Just My Style" - The fitest survive is the Darwinian viewpoint and seems to work with foxhunting.

"Cinnamon Girl" - "flippant attitude" ?? That was not my impression. "...I would rather be hit by a car or shot and left to bleed to death than be ripped apart by a pack of hounds." The Burn's report to the British Parliment found death by hound no more or less cruel than other available means of fox control including sharp shooters and gassing. The methods you list were not discussed, you are entitled to your preferences.

"Badger" - I am not trying to pick a fight with you because I know the thoughts you express are not uncommon among seasonsed foxhunters. I just want to assure Foxygrl516 that she is not alone.

"...might bring an unfavorable light onto the hunt club that has welcomed you and the sponser who has invited you..."

The kill and the blooding ceremony are honored components of foxhunting. Expressing joy in participation is not unfavorable. I hope the future brings multitudes like Foxygrl516 into fox hunt clubs.

"inflamatory thread" - Yes, but to whom? The animal rights folks? So what? This is a public bulletin board concerned with hunting. What would you expect?

"I am a bit embarrassed that somone seems to celebrate rather than revere the occasion of a kill" -- These terms are not mutually exclusive, we can do both.

"The blooding ceremony is ... usually much more somber..." -- Why should it be somber? Why not cheerful?

"I was as shocked ... about a description of loud cheering from the staff..." -- Foxygrl516 did not say anyone was cheering. "All the staff started yelling "ON YOUR KNEES!!!!"" at the start of the blooding ceremony. Sounds like a good way to start.


"I have never heard of a ceremony of this sort.." -- Listen and learn; there is more than one way.

"... shine an ugly and (by most accounts) inaccurate light..." -- Not my opinion. I am eager to learn. I am sorry you see ugly. Do you have another accounting to call the testimony inaccurate?

"...why you got some of the responses you did" -- This is a public forum and folks are free to give their opinion.

My opinion is I wish readers could share the joy expressed by Foxygrl516 as I have with the great day described. Cheers!

[OneonOne]

Badger, your post was very eloquent and well-stated.

__________________________________
Formerly mmclough

[Cinnamon Girl]

rehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifelphi
The Burns Report? Is the the report that the British foxhunting population paid to have done so that their sport would seem more humane to the British Parliment?

[almost star]

Foxy girl:

So, could you please just even change the name of the post. It is creepy, those who get their thrills out of killing.

Thanks.

* lost tb *

[Whistlejacket]

Badger -

Thanks for an exceptionally well-written post. Your balanced, realistic and articulate discussion well-addresses the issues raised by this thread.

I fit into the category that you described as "dedicated foxhunters" who have given a lot of thought to this topic.

I have been very much influenced by the experience of literally having been taught foxhunting by an "old-time-type" huntsman. Since boyhood he had worked in various capacities for a hunt and had learned from some of the great ones. By the time I knew him as an adult, he instinctly "knew" the language and dynamic of fox, hound, and horse. And his way of hunting embodied the respect and reverence the hunter has for the hunted. While he would not shy away from a kill, his style of hunting was characterized by a discernable respect for the quarry and knowing when it was fair and appropriate to walk away.

But perhaps the above is a topic for another thread...

Again, thanks for your well-stated post.

[This message was edited by Whistlejacket on Nov. 17, 2003 at 04:27 PM.]

[Cinnamon Girl]

re: Delphi
I found the Burns Report online and could not find where is stated death by hounds to be no less cruel than by other means. Maybe you can copy and paste?
I have nothing against Fox Hunting. I've been to a few myself. However it is my understanding that blooding (here in America) is something that isn't openly discussed, especially with such enthusiasm.

[Badger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Delphi:
The kill and the blooding ceremony are honored components of foxhunting. Expressing joy in participation is not unfavorable. I hope the future brings multitudes like Foxygrl516 into fox hunt clubs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

According to the MFHA website: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> (f.)Â*Â* The tradition of blooding originated in ancient times as a historic ritual to honor the hunted animal.Â* It is the position of the MFHA that this practice not be encouraged, as it is too easily misunderstood and misinterpreted <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think posts on this thread demonstrate how the ceremony can be misinterpreted. Foxygrl516 went to great lengths on another thread to say she is new to hunting and wants to learn to do things correctly and not be rude or cause problems or embarrassment:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Thank you all for your suggestions and keep them coming! I always learn a great deal from just reading what everyone has to say. I think my biggest fear is being rude. In the topic that I posted before, you guys really made me think about how I don't want my horse to interrupt anyone else's day. (that's why I love to post here, you make me think about things that I should have thought of myself). I have invitations to 4 different hunts in the area, and I would love to visit all of them, but I just REALLY don't want to get in anyone's way. In south carolina I rode with a whip, and the master hunter (my friend the whip's mother) said that I could come and bring my horse and just ride with him at the whip to get her used to the sounds and stuff but not be in the pack. at other hunts though I don't have that option (considering that is a very generous offer) and I would hate for someone to be embarrassed that I came as their guest. Make sense?
Oh, and one more question. I want to learn all there is to learn about foxhunting. I don't want to break any rules of etiquette because I didn't know it was a rule and stuff like that. Are there any good books or websites that will spell it out for me. I know each ind. hunt may have variations of rules, but surely there is a general book of rules. Let me know where to find it so that I can be on my best behavior when I make it out there! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what is expressed in this quote is very admirable and it expresses a thirst for knowledge and willingness to learn and awareness that there is an etiquette to follow and that there is lots for a newbie to learn. We don't know if it was a MFHA pack or not, and I hope the guest does not specify this or the name of the pack so that the discussion can remain generic and non-specific as it has so far. If it was a MFHA pack that chose to have a blooding ceremony they might not want it announced and discussed by a non-member (early in the learning curve about hunting) on a public bulletin board. And maybe they would. I don't know. But as Foxygrl said in the early thread I quoted: she wants to be on her best behaviour. She wants to make a good impression and be invited back and not be seen as a troublemaker (that being her word earlier in this thread). And I have posted trying to educate her about some of the politics and realities surrounding foxhunting that she might want to be aware of so that she will continue to make a good impression with her local hunts.

Delphi quoted me and responded<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> "... shine an ugly and (by most accounts) inaccurate light..." -- Not my opinion. I am eager to learn. I am sorry you see ugly. Do you have another accounting to call the testimony inaccurate? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I would like to clarify that I was not calling Foxygrl's testimony of her own experience inaccurate. What I meant was that I (and others on this thread) believe her experience does not give an accurate impression of foxhunting.

Foxygrl response sounded, in my opinion, surprised and defensive to read the posts on her enthusiastic and well-meaning topic. My response was intended to clarify to her how at least one person (myself) read her post and the reaction I had to it. And as it IS a public forum, I felt free to add my opinion to the growing list. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[YoungFilly]

Foxygrl516, I think you just walked off a cliff without even realizing the cliff was there until you started to fall. After reading a lot of the posts here by the experienced hunters, and reading the MFHA’s official stance on blooding, I think its safe to say that your natural exuberance in being able to partake in a very old and obviously loved sport may have caused you to inadvertently spark a firestorm. I think now after reading all of the posts that it may have been a “first impression� gone pretty bad. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif That being said with the truth coming out about the sport I think I would go out on a hunt (If my greenie dressage horse could survive) and come back with happy memories. That is, if my horse didn’t buck me off in the middle of the gallop http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif, and I have to add, we didn’t kill anything.

[Foxygrl516]

Let me try this again...

First of all, I would like to thank all of you who responded kindly. I posted the original post in total innocence and I just wanted to share my good experience with all of you. i thought you would be excited for me.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Foxygrl516:
I know what you mean. It is kinda sad, but that is the sport. The best part wasn't that they killed the coyote, it was just that we had such a great chase all day. i could "hunt" for hours on a chase and be perfectly happy if nothing was ever touched. I think the blooding and all made me feel like I was being initiated into something secret (as silly as that sounds). haha. It was like I'm a real foxhunter now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Did I mention in my above post that I have never been so sore in my life?!?!?!?

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



I think that says it right there. I loved the chase, not the kill. Maybe I titled it wrong. And it sounds like many of you were blooded. I know it may sound like I had 15 or so staff members hooping and hollering, but it was a small thursday hunt and there were only 2 staff members present at the time I was speaking of, and one of them was driving the truck. I'm sorry if I worded that wrong also.

My reply last night may have been a little harsh, but when I saw that there were 2 pages of responses to my post, I was excited and wanted to see what was said. I was shocked to see some of the rude assumptions that were made. I was honestly just telling you guys about my great day.

I understand that some people are offended by hunting, and that sports such as this are generally under tight watch by certain people, but I didn't think that I would offend anyone on a hunting forum. I will be more careful in the future, but I figured it was like trying to be politically correct at a family dinner. You don't have to worry about anyone being offended about things you are a part of. That's all. I'm sorry to those who I have offended.

Thank you for trying to enlighten me and teach me. I do however hope that when you read a post and are questioning the motives behind it, you read it twice and think about the tone of it and the probable intentions of the poster. Never hesitate to teach and share knowledge, but maybe it can be done in a nicer manner in the future. Some of you were honestly quite rude.

I will keep hunting and I will love it. i respect every one of you and the knowledge that you harbor. It makes me sad though that we have to be so careful when talking among friends.

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy

[Foxygrl516]

Oh, and i mentioned in my post yesterday that i will be happy to change the title but I don't knwo how. Share with me how to do it and I will. That may have gotten lost in such a long reply since I have gotten another request to do so. Someone show me how and i will do it as soon as I get a chance. (tomorrow before class.)

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy

[Delphi]

The Burns Report

http://www.huntinginquiry.gov.uk/mainsections/huntingreport.htm

Ok, so I made my own conclusion from the following clips that no credible evidence was presented that hunting with hounds is more cruel than other means of control. The report does effectively dodge the issue of "cruelty" altogether and "cruel" is a poor choice of words on my part and I will try to not use it again. According to the report, all methods of death seem to be adverse to the welfare of the individual animal and no particular method recomended.

"56 The evidence which we have seen suggests that, in the case of the killing of a fox by hounds above ground, death is not always effected by a single bite to the neck or shoulders by the leading hound resulting in the dislocation of the cervical vertebrae. ... We are satisfied, nevertheless, that this experience seriously compromises the welfare of the fox. (Paragraph 6.49)"

"57 Although there is no firm scientific evidence, we are satisfied that the activity of digging out and shooting a fox involves a serious compromise of its welfare..."

"59 None of the legal methods of fox control is without difficulty from an animal welfare perspective."

"61 In practice, it is likely that some mixture of all of these methods would be used. In the event of a ban on hunting, it is possible that the welfare of foxes in upland areas could be affected adversely, unless dogs could be used, at least to flush foxes from cover. (Paragraph 6.61)"

[Badger]

I think you may be able to change the title by going to the first page of the thread and going to your original post and clicking on the little edit icon (looks like a pencil). I've not done it before, but that's where I'd start.

And Foxy, I don't think there is a hunter here who can't relate to the passion and excitement of discovering this great sport. But I also think that many of us have also been bit on online forums: though this a Hunting board, it is open to anyone (including non-foxhunters and non-riders and members of PETA or anyone at all) to read and post. So a conversation here is not quite the same as a small conversation among like-minded people that can't be overheard: it is a public, open forum.

And one thing I promise you will learn as you continue hunting, foxhunters are wonderful, contentious, opiniontated people who don't always get along with each other and are all sure we know better than the next guy (many hunt clubs have been formed because people couldn't get along with hunters in their old club so they started a new one). So yes, you are among friends here, but that doesn't mean we always get along. That's reality, we're a colorful lot, warts and all! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Delphi]

The MFHA Code of Hunting
http://www.mfha.com/code.htm

Concerning the cermony of blooding,

2 (f.) The tradition of blooding originated in ancient times as a historic ritual to honor the hunted animal. It is the position of the MFHA that this practice not be encouraged, as it is too easily misunderstood and misinterpreted.


Reported in Foxygrl516's post the hunstman initiated the ceremony, not the MFH. But according to

2(e.) It is the responsibility of the Masters to understand and explain unequivocally to their huntsman and staff the importance of adhering to these rules. Violators will be subject to disciplinary action in accordance with MFHA rules and by-laws.

If the MFH of this club is subject to the MFHA then there does appear to be potential trouble for the MFH.

I feel Foxygrl516 does understand the historic honor to the hunted animal and can interpret the ceremony, a task seemingly too difficult for the MFHA. I'm sure she will not "rat" on the MFH, and I hope she will continue to post honest uninhibited reports. She began this thread with joyfull exuberance but foxhunters and animal rights folks have thrown cold water.

Foxygrl516, hope you are wearing your raincoat, and remember to laugh!

[YoungFilly]

But don't change it now! This thread, named as it is will teach more about hunting than shamefully hiding it. It just ran the gamut; let it go as it is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[almost star]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Foxygrl516:
change the title but I don't knwo how.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In case you want to know how to change the title, below your post, on the right side are three yellow-ish symbols. Click on the middle one that says "Edit" if you hold your cursor on it for a minute. Then a box will come up that allows you to edit.

Kill any cute little animals today??

(Please do not yell at me for this. I believe it was the perceived happiness of the kill which set us all off.)

* lost tb *

[Foxhunt4me]

Who said that the hunt in question with the goofy blooding ceremony was an MFHA recognized hunt?

There are a lot of unrecognized hunts and farmers packs in the USA as well as ' outlaw " or unsanctioned packs.

The rules don't apply to them unless they wish them to.

[Painted Wings]

We foxhunt in an area near the farm where my horses live. The coyotes have killed off six barn cats, a goose, several ducks, a farm dog, and who knows what else.

I have even seen up to four coyotes stalking our horses.

They even stalk me when I ride. See the thread in this Forum titled "Trailriding with coyotes anyone?".

I'm all for killing the cute little furry things. But have yet to be on a hunt where that has happened.

[mbp]

I think the first post was very clearly just someone who is young and caught up in the excitement. And some folks were equally excited, some wanted to make sure the poster knew how sensitive the topic could be, given the current status of the sport.

The only things that have bothered me on this thread are foxhunt4me's dominion and Christianity = killing animals aspects.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We were created to have dominion over the Earth and its creatures and fullfilling the puporse for which we were created still gives rise to deep feelings in those of us that are still capable of them and that do not have our minds numbed by the din of the politically correct babble of the weak and the laziness of MC meals<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I guess from that standpoint, you could say the strong were created to have dominion over the weak and that rape, killing, assault etc. are just fine - as long as your are fulfilling your purpose and having a thrill. I think the thought process is very hedonistic. And the logic faulty - LOTS of city dwellers just LOVE exercising dominion over animals (and people) and killing animals (and people). Still, I would have ignored this bc the whole foxhunting thing is a ying yang series of arguments. Wouldn't have said anything UNTIL you say that you base this all on your Christian beliefs.

As a Christian - I say "phooey" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

The Bble is pretty full in Genesis of the original admonitions that man was to thrive on seeds, berries, etc and after original sin, green herbs were added. It was only after the flood that meat and fish were referenced and the Bible also very much addresses the struggle for a time of peace, when the lion shall lay down with the lamb and animals as well as humans are to be safe from the sword. I won't go on and quote scripture but it is there for anyone who is intersted and just as valid as the "dominion" over the earth references. Indeed, I guess you could point to the husband's "dominion" over his wife to justify wife-hunting, but I wouldn't call it Christianity.

I have killed animals and will again when there is need or cause. I usually do it with sadness at the passing of life. Sometimes with anger in defense. Sometimes with fear when a sickened animal is involved and there may be contagions. I don't dwell in the city (btw - Christ spent a fair amount of time in cities) now but certainly have.

All the self absorbed "soft city folk - Disney crowd" crap is just that - divisionary crap by those who do get a power kick from killing and think it makes them better than those who don't get to indulge in killing as a sportive pastime. The don't care about the sport and preserving the sport - they care about fighting and winning arguments bc they are, in their own perception "better" and "entitled". IMO, that approach is not helpful to the sport and they are not made by those who care about the sport.

I have foxhunted, I have also watched friggin Disney, I have killed animals and I have saved them and thank GOD the people I foxhunted with were not *thrilled* by *domination* and by the *stirrings* of the *kill*.

People who love the sport can build bridges - like Badger. Or alienate the crap out of those on the fence by spouting how much better they are than the soft city dwellers bc they are in tune with killing. Sheez Louise. BUt if you want to , in essence, say that it's bc you are Christians that you love the kill, baloney. Including all the squishy parts you have to grind up for the baloney.

You know, I am pretty sure there are some other groups in the main 3 religions, based from Old Testament teachings, who use that same approach of dominion - as a matter of fact I think they believe dominion over the "infidels" is just fine. So reassuring to see they have kindred spirits. I will categorically say that I do not believe that believing in Christ requires being thrilled over the exercise of dominion over the weak.

I'll go brush my teeth now and won't worry about the yada yada yada. I just think when you pull Jesus Christ into a discussion of foxhunting and contempt for all city dwellers it requires a counterpoint.

[Foxygrl516]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by YoungFilly:
But don't change it now! This thread, named as it is will teach more about hunting than shamefully hiding it. It just ran the gamut; let it go as it is. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I did change it, but I took your point into consideration. Some of you may find the new title strange, but I think that is the best way to describe what is happening here. If you want me to change it again, I"m taking suggestions.

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy

[Inverness]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mbp:

The only things that have bothered me on this thread are foxhunt4me's dominion and Christianity = killing animals aspects.

[QUOTE]

mbp, check for foxhunt4me's later clarification/explanation of her "dominion" comment. You are a post or two behind in your reading.

Re "flippant" comments. Not at all my intention. I honestly do feel it would be preferable to be killed instantly by a hound than to be struck by a car and left to suffer by the side of the road. Moreover, I think that any irresponsible hunter who wounds his/her prey and fails to pursue it to ensure its suffering is not long endured, should be shot him/herself.

Painted Wings, your observation re coyotes is unfortunately widespread and is not limited to rural areas. I recall that 2-3 years ago, two coyotes attacked children in a public park in Rye, NY - a stone's throw from NYC.
The coyotes killed the family's Golden Retriever who died trying to protect the children.


_____________________________
A person is prohibited to eat until he first feeds his animals.
- Babylonian Talmud, Berakhot 40a

[SimpsoMatt]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Inverness:
check for foxhunt4me's later clarification/explanation of her "dominion" comment. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Joel!!! Or is it Joella now?? Have there been some changes in your life that you haven't shared with us?

[Heather]

This has been an interesting discussion to read.

I come from a part of the country without fox hunting, and had never given it much thought. I mvoed back east, and met and married Mr. Heather, who has been an avid foxhunter for more than 30 years. In the early stages of our relationship, me going out with him wasn't an option, since my event horses would not have been exactly suitable (it's my understnading travelling at the speed of light is not desirable).

However, outside of the horse issue, was a deep seeded moral issue for me. I don't believe it's OK to kill things for sport. Period. Now before I get flamed as one of the Disney crowd (though I do love me some Lion King), I should point out that one of the reasons I'm against is because my great grandfather and great uncle were game hunters of some note (and farmers in the true sense--severla thousand acres, sheep, crops, the whole deal). They both had trophy rooms in their homes that looked like museum collections. My great grandfather lived to be 103, and in his old age his greatest regret in life was that he had hunted, and been responsible for so much death.Similarly, my great uncle ended up leaving a large section of his estate to wildlife and environmental preservation groups (non-hunting ones) because he felt "he had a lot to make up for". These were men who would fit no ones definition of soft, or citified, and of allthe expereinces in their lives, it was the hunting that they regretted most. That has stayed with me.

Now, I'm not against the British ban, because I don't believe it will save the life of a single fox--but that doesn't mean I think killing something for sport is "right". Just perhaps the lesser of two evils.

So anyway, we've had a new horse come into our lives, and he's one I'd feel comfortbale taking hunting. So I've been thinking about trying it. Had in fact said I would--until I read this thread. Now I'm reconsidering. Not because I was so horrified by the intial post--I knew about blooding, though it seriously squicks me out. But because of the point made that if you foxhunt without fully appreciating the "hunt" part, you are a hycpocrite, foolish, or both. So if by going, even if we don't get within miles of a fox, perhaps I will be dishonoring my family members, and going against a strong moral belief. The "fact" that it is highly unlikely a kill will occur, is maybe not good enough. I just don't know. (Mr. Heather, as I said, has been hunting for 30 plus years, and has only seen two kills).

Not to mention, there are a few people on this thread that downright scare me. "Dominion"? The Bible? Uhm, OK. If that's the kind of person I'll meet out hunting, well, let's just say little ole non-Christian me is probably better off elsewhere.

I'm not sure ultimately what I'll decide (as it turned out, the horse in question is going to be off for a while, so Ihave time to really think about it), but I do think this thread has been a good opportunity for me to really think about what I believe and to try and decide what I'll do.

And FWIW, as someone who is a definate fence sitter, I'd offer that Badger's reply is far more like to rally people to your cause than some of the other replies, which were offensive and demeaning. Just a thought.

[Delphi]

from W975 "Kill any cute little animals today??"

No, just payed someone else to kill big ugly animals for me, but I'm not happy about it and I'm sure I'll burst into tears when I bite into it.

And I promise with the next cute little anmial I chase I will take solace with a quiet revered momment. And should it happen to die, well, my emphasis is really only on the chase, so thats Ok. I'll just call it collateral damage.

Even though I might enjoy, I certainly do not and will not encouraged any antiquated ceremonies that someone somewhere might not understand. I assume someone somewhere is always watching.

Foxygrl516, this is not a "flippant" comment, I am sincerely covering my butt.

Heather, I am not trying to push anyone's buttons. Life is scary and full of inconsistency; ying and yang and all that stuff. Foxhunting helps me keep the world in perspective and balanced. You may find this also, or maybe not. When you figure it out I hope you let us all know.

[This message was edited by Delphi on Nov. 18, 2003 at 11:54 AM.]

[vineyridge]

Some thoughts here.

When I was young, oh so many years ago, I foxhunted every weekend. We never came anywhere near a kill. But the family I boarded with were the MFH's of the hunt, and every year they would go off to Aiken Hunt week. (This was forty years ago). They killed at Aiken, and the MFH would return with evidence of those kills. It was traditional to award trophies to those foxhunters who had distinguished themselves on the hunt. For years there were brushes and masks and feet wrapped in freezer paper or plastic, waiting to be mounted.

In England this is still done. I'm sure it is still done here in traditional hunts when a kill occurs. It's certainly the same when a deer hunter mounts a head or a rack of antlers.

In France most of the mounted hunting is for deer or wild boar. (We still allow deer hunting with dogs down here, although it is no where near as popular today as it was fifty years ago.) The French ride until the quarry is exhausted and bayed, and then the huntsman draws a sword and dispatches the animal. The corpse is taken to the inn from which the hunt originated and a ceremony is performed, during which all of the hunt horns are played and the courage of the quarry is praised.

See any similarity between foxhunting customs, French hunting customs, and bullfighting customs? They are all ancient traditions, probably long pre-dating Christianity. Maybe Celtic.

BTW, before the introduction of firearms and poison, hunting with hounds was the most efficient way of procuring meat for the table and reducing vermin populations. Specific breeds of dog were developed for each task. Terriers for rats and going to ground; hounds for chasing and baying; and mastiff types for killing. Man needed, and man created. Just as now, man needs and creates poison. It seems to me that using dogs is much fairer than using poison, since there is a chance that the quarry will escape the dogs by going to ground, and if caught, the death is quicker and less painful.

Most animals killed by any dog of any kind are killed by having their necks broken--an instanteous and painless death. It's a death I would much prefer to poison or trapping or from injuries from a car wreck.

Nuff said.

Thread killer Extraordinaire

[Badger]

Heather, I think your post reflects the issues a lot of people are confronted with when they first make the effort to learn about and think about hunting.

First of all, (and this is a point for YoungFilly too): there is the possibility of a kill whenever you go hunting. With most American packs, it is a small, small chance, and many people will hunt for decades and never be on a hunt when the quarry is accounted for, but yes the chance is there. I acknowledge and accept that and if I were not able to accept that then I would not foxhunt.

So why do I find this acceptable for me? I have given it and other animal/human relationship issues a lot of thought in order to form a set of moral and ethical standards that I want to live by. I am not saying that what works for me is right for anyone else, but I'm sharing this as a glimmer of how one hunter thinks. Now, there is a good chance that someone will come along and pick apart this rather hastily written post and I'm telling y'all up front that I probably and not going to be willing to get in a defensive pissing match over what I'm about to write http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

Some on the biggest animal lovers I have had the pleasure of knowing are foxhunters. One of my very closest friends is an honorary whipper-in, is on the board for her local humane society, volunteers several days a week for the local shelter, has personally taken in and nursed back to health and spayed or neutered and rehomed more cats/dogs/horses/goats than most people will meet in a lifetime, and she foxhunts.

I had a foxhunter fly out from PA to try a horse I had for sale, and she was both a dedicated vegetarian (no milk, no cheese, no flesh or fish) and an avid foxhunter.

I myself eat no mammals (no beef, lamp, pork, or venison) because I wouldn't eat my own dog or horse or a human and I don't think killing and eating other mammals is right for me when I have other options. Since I wouldn't kill and butcher a mammal myself in order to eat it (when I have other available options), then I'm not going to pay someone else to do that for me. Since I wouldn't have a problem killing and butchering fish and fowl, they are still part of my diet. I have no problem with people who are willing to raise and butcher their own meat, but I find it hypocrital when people buy their seran-wrapped filet in the grocery story but don't acknowledge the animal and the process (yep, something died here) that brought that food to their table and these same people are often the ones passing judgement on deer hunters and anglers and foxhunters. So I don't eat mammals, but I fox hunt.

How on earth can I be foxhunter if I won't eat a McDonald's burger? First of all, fox and coyote are preditors who kill and eat a multitude of other animals. They evolved as both preditor and prey animals. The cougars and wolves that used to prey on them have been mostly eliminated, but the role of the fox and coyote as prey to larger preditors is part of their natural make-up. I am more comfortable hunting coyotes who do the same thing to other animals, than I would be hunting big game (like Heather's grandfather did) which are not hunting other animals. In areas like England where fox go on killing sprees and slaughter 20+ lambs in an evening (much more than they are going to eat), I see a real need to save livestocks' lives by hunting foxes.

In my hunting experience, the rare time a fox or coyote has been killed by hounds, it is a form of natural selection. Sometimes it is an animal sick with mange and as the coyotes share dens, the mange mite is going to spread throughout the local population, and the mangey coyote is going to die a slow, painful death from starvation and weakness. Sometimes it is an animal old or crippled from some accident. And rarely it is healthy animal that had enormously bad luck.

I see how much horses and hounds and people love hunting. And I know children and dogs and even horses love to play games of chase. I think nature may have wired us to enjoy hunting and similated hunting activities. And though I don't know what is in the mind of coyotes or foxes, if nature has wired man and dog to enjoy hunting (because those that enjoyed hunting would be good at it and would survive by not starving) and to enjoy being chased (because those that enjoyed games of tag and chase would be fit and skilled and able to evade predators and therefore survive) then I believe that nature would have wired coyotes with the same positive incentive for the same reasons. Every foxhunter I know has anecdotes of foxes and coyotes that appeared to "toy with" the pack and appeared to "enjoy" the sport. Now, the stakes are certainly much higher for quarry in this sport, but I truly believe that the experience of hunting and being hunted are part of nature's plan. And that is part of my thought process and part of why I hunt, I love nature and the animals and the chase, and I accept that sometimes the quarry meets its fate. I root for the coyote, I admire it's skills and cunning and stamina, and I am happy that he almost always gets away.

All this is an inkling of how one particular foxhunter goes out time and again, season after season, and enjoys the chase, even though I accept there is a chance that it will end in a kill. I think if you talk to 20 different hunters you will get 20 different reasons on why they find the sport acceptable. And a whole heck of a lot of them have given it a great deal of thought, they deeply love animals, and they have no problem with the sport.

[Hunter's Rest]

BAdger
That was heavenly. Beautfully put and so on target.
BTW, 'hard wired for hunting' humans are studied in detail in lovely prose and well-researched in Rupert Issaccson's (?) book 'The Wild Host' and its at Horse Country. Anyone else fascinated by this topic and thread (how could you not be?, friend or foe ...) should absolutely look at it.

www.huntersrest.net (http://www.huntersrest.net) -- Virginia hunt country's best Bed-and-Breakfast-and-Barn

Though some may say, and I'll agree, that only God can make a tree.
Before God thought of trees its said, his mind was on the Thoroughbred.
-- Paul Mellon

[Foxhunt4me]

A lot misunderstood.

MBP - if you wish to have a serious discussion on this topic I would ask you to take it offline and directly to email. As I stated I was explaining my personal starting point and the use of some generally misunderstood words. I have a thourough understanding of what I am talking about here. We obviously come from very different interpretive backgrounds.

To take my comments about man having dominion and stewardship over the Earth and then make the illogical jump to " you could say the strong were created to have dominion over the weak and that rape, killing, assault etc" is quite funny. Also the comment about women - you have all your little hot buttons against others all arranged to push dont you? Whether they fit the situation and context or not. It reminds me of typical liberal responses to many topics.

You obviously have an ax to grind but if you want to learn something and have an actual discussion - email me directly - it will require work on your part though.

[mbp]

Foxhunt - I did see that you went back and tried to pretty up the sentiments you expressed on dominion and to be honest, to the extent that you expressed those as just yours I would not have cared an iota. If you want to express contempt for (your words - not my buttons) "coddled" "soft" "city folk", who have their "minds numbed by the din of the politically correct babble of the weak" fine. That's you. If you want to set forth your view of stewardship as "stewardship over the resources therein and the ability to use them as we will." Fine - that's you. If you want to celebrate the fact that you can enjoy exercising dominion and express contempt for those who you think don't share your feelings because they are not "capable" (unlike capable little you) "We were created to have dominion over the Earth and its creatures and fullfilling the puporse for which we were created still gives rise to deep feelings in those of us that are still capable of them" Fine - that's you.

WHen you purport to say that this is CHRISTIANITY - yep, that's my hot button bc I firmly believe a lot of that is NOT CHRISTIANITY. Whether it is right or wrong just a part of the great amount of diversity that is neither right nor wrong, like liking chocolate more than vanilla, is not a point.

But the repeated jabs, jibes, expressions of contempt, self aggrandizing your "capabilities" etc. - nope, not Christian. I believe that as firmly as you disbelieve it. You think that I am lining up hot buttons? But you pull in all the above first, then religion, then bring in abortion and euthanasia, and think I am itching? LOL I don't think theology is appropriate in this thread and have only responded bc you are the one who insisted on bringing it in - I did not post anything until after you "explained" your positions as being based on Christianity.

I have mixed feelings about foxhunting, I have hunted, I have killed, I don't live in the city, I have delivered foals and put down my old horses. I have stood at my grandmother and grandfathers side while they killed chickens and plucked them as a young young child. I have never had the "thrill" of deep feelings or the joy of "accounting" for the kill and that does not make me "less" Christian.

Continue to concentrate on dominion as you will - the bible is pretty clear though that it is the MEEK who shall inherit. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Right this moment, that appellation probably doesn't apply to either of us. I've made my points - and yes, look to scripture if you will to explain that the "first clothes" were bc of man's fall from grace, not bc of God's plan, and Genesis well describes the Garden and the subsistence for man and it didn't include killing animals.

That doesn't mean that I am against killing animals or even people, in all circumstances. A lot of times it is necessary.
I just very very much disapprove of using a incomplete, personally biased and distorted biblical reference to support your position - particularly here, in a forum that is not a political or religious forum.

And it is very clear that you do not want to engage in the effort to study the bible or debate with respect - you just like the jibes - about the soft and the coddled, and dig dig dig - "it would require effort on your part" dig dig dig. Sheez - how big is that chip on your shoulder, that you think everyone else lives the cush life and just poor you has to work and deal with reality? And if only OTHER people would "work" at it they could learn from you? I hope you find a path from that bitter aspect and I believe you will.

That's it for me - the actual pros/cons/politics/tradition/etc. issues are being much better dealt with by others and the original poster should be kind of pleased that she generated such an interesting and informative thread. I hope she continues to love her sport.

[saddleup]

All I can add to this thread is a big WOW.

I have never fox hunted. There are no hunts where I live. But even if there were, philosophies and arguments aside, I couldn't do it because I'm too much of a chicken! And I don't have a horse brave enough and sensible enough to be part of the hunt and not go nuts. Not to mention my poor body would probably never recover! I can only try to imagine it.

I occasionally check in at the Hunting Forum to read people's accounts of a great day hunting...and to me it sounds glorious and exhilarating to spend time with fellow horse lovers, dressed to the nines, galloping through the fields on a brave and obedient mount.

I admit I don't think much about the possibility of a fox or coyote dying as a result, but then, as a person who's lost many chickens at my barn to both foxes and coyotes, I view them as predators not cute little animals.

I appreciate the differing points of view presented on this thread. But I stick with my original impression of those brave souls who do hunt...I admire your courage. Who'd have thought it'd take almost as much courage just to post a report on this forum?

[Whistlejacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by saddleup:
Who'd have thought it'd take almost as much courage just to post a report on this forum?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Heather]

Thanks badger, I appreciate your thoughtful post.

I guess part of my issue does have to do with the "dominion" comment. In that, I don't think the fact that an animal is a "pest" to a farmer and it's stock, that that gives us automatic right to wipe it off the face of the earth or kill it indiscriminantly. They were here first, and they are numerous because of our indiscriminate killing of THEIR predators. If we hadn't mucked it all up so bad in the first place, we wouldn't need to steward anything.

I also wanted to add that many of the animals my great grandfather and uncle killed WERE top of the food chain predators, like lions, bears, wolves tigers, jaguars. In addition to deer, elk, moose, antelope, zebra, even an elephant. (Keep in mind, this would have been in the 1940s).

My great grandfather had some local noteriety for tracking and killing a grizzly that was decimating their sheep herds, and had killed a shepherd, but even that kill he later regretted.

I don't know what I'm going to do, and as I said, Ihave some time to decide. But I do thank you badger, for giving me your expereince and beliefs, It helps to show me one way to think about it.

My thanks.

[Quinn]

Hi Heather: You and I are from similar "camps" in our opinions I would say. I was a member of a local hunt for 5 years. I loved the comraderie, I loved the hours on horseback, I loved the tailgate breakfasts, I loved the sherry http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif. In our particular hunt, the hounds were not overly well disciplined to put it mildly. On one occasion, the hounds treed a raccoon and one of the huntstaff shook it out of the tree to "reward" the hounds. On another occasion the hounds were on a stag and it plunged through the ice into the river. On yet another occasion, they chased a domestic cat and tore it to shreds. This was someone's pet. My horror was met with smirks and careless remarks. I never went on a hunt again and can honestly say, I won't. If you feel you could stomach a "kill" and I am not passing personal judgement on that at all but if you can, go for it. If you can't, don't go. There is always the possibility.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

[Delphi]

Quinn, yes these things happen.

Foxhunting clubs that follow the MFHA code do not knock animals from trees either to reward the hounds or to continue the chase.

Huntsmen take pride in having their hounds ignore all but the desired quary. Killing deer, domestic cats, or anything but the target is never welcome.

I know it wont help with your experience, and I have no scientific study to quote, but I am sure people's pet dogs and cats running free kill a horrific bounty of wildlife each year. The unintended kills by foxhounds is so tiny in comparison.

If my hunt club behaved the way you describe then I would change the club or change clubs.

[Raven's Wing]

I have to say I the hunt I was on worked very hard to keep the hounds only after the fox. In fact they prided themselves on the fact that they work very hard with their hounds to only pick up on that scent (they may have also meant coyote but I only heard them talk about the fox.) In fact the hounds were scolded when a couple of them did go after a deer. Also the hunt I was on was very careful about not letting the hounds off that property and onto other people's land that was not part of the hunt. At one point the 2nd flight group I was with came up a trail right on the boundary and when one of the hounds came our direction they closed ranks on him and sent him back to the pack. And were very on us newbie's in a nice way about keeping an eye out to make sure the hounds were in check.

I am starting to appreciation the local hunt group here more and more after reading some of this.

[falleroffer]

The pack that I hunt with seems to account for more game than several of the other posts indicate. This is a reflection of the philosophy of our Master on what the purpose of his foxhounds is. It is not to lark and babble, but to hunt, run and, when the ocassion presents itself, to account for the game swiftly, not like a cat tormenting a bird. But that is his philosophy and, by my subscription, mine.

As far as the morality of the kill, foxes and coyotes are varmits. They will kill without need or provocation. As their natural enemies are removed, they will overpopulate. Poison and trapping are not practical methods of control, which leaves hunting and shooting. While hunting will not remove large numbers of
fox or coyotes, the one being run by hounds will not have reproducing on its mind.

For those who seek a viable alternative rather than just an argument, drag hunting was invented.

[Badger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It is not to lark and babble, but to hunt...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plenty of packs hunt hard and well but don't account for quarry because it runs out of country or to ground. A coyote ran down a boundary road and out of country Saturday, and as a whip I was in position and stopped hounds from pursuing out of country. Today we hunted a gray fox running loops in the cover near our kennels. Hounds opened strongly and ran circle after circle as we stood and listened to the music then galloped after them. Eventually hounds lost and as we packed them home I was sent ahead of the pack to find an overgrown trail: just ahead appeared the fox coming down the trail towards me, then he darted to the right and headed towards a developed area where we can't hunt. We took hounds home a different route in order to avoid the risk of losing them to the scent on that trail. I've been on hunts when coyotes have gone to ground in drainage pipes and even once under the hound trailer (I even got a picture of that and gave it to the huntsman), and the quarry is given best and we call it a day. You can have good hunting and excellent hound work and very, very rarely have a kill: it doesn't mean your hounds just lark and babble. This may be especially true with hunts that have predominately coyote as quarry as they are very fast and have huge territories that can far exceeds hunt country.

[wateryglen]

First off, Badger, you rock!
Have hunted many years and seen some kills. In the end, you have to sort this issue out for yourself. It is YOUR Feelings that matter. I was shocked at my own reaction to my first and when I was discreetly blooded. I was thrilled (and horrified at the same time). Kinda like I was a Real hunter now. Like I was being initiated into a long tradition of sport. Like I belonged. Like having earned my colors. Yet I thought I was against killing foxes. I have since reconciled my feelings and I hope he gets away but I want to see the hounds successful. My favorite is a denning or mark. I smile. And yes one of the lessons learned is that there are many sports with animals that don't make sense....well many sports that don't make sense!
And I don't have to defend it. I just choose to participate FOR MY OWN REASONS! And for those of us who participate we must learn the political correctness of our sport too. Thats part of it. Happy Hunting or Chasing everyone!

[dianad]

Well,
Am only posting this because I have so often fantasized and wished to go foxhunting, and wondered how I would feel if the fox was killed (oops, 'accounted for').

I grew up in Idaho, so no stranger to hunting, would never do it myself but that's my perogative. I feel that if I WAS lucky enough to go foxhunting someday, and there WAS a kill, I would just be as uninvolved as possible. I don't want to see it, definitely don't want to be 'blooded'. But I'm certainly not going to go off on someone who does.

Kind of like I enjoy beef, but not about to raise and slaughter my own cow. Avoidance? Probably. Oh well.

I DO find it amazing that Christianity was brought into this post at all, and as a Christian myself, I have to say that alot of those kinds of arguments are what turns people off of Christianity in the first place. But that's a whole other discussion.

This was a very educational thread for me, and I'm glad it got posted. As an artist, I love the pageantry and tradition of it all. Thanks for the rousing discussion.

Life is short, do it now. www.dianasart.com (http://www.dianasart.com)

[Killian]

Wow. What am amazing discourse. Many thoughtful remarks, but for me, Badger stands out among the rest. Very interesting, especially as I was on another little thread talking about blooding. Very tame in comparison.

[Tory Relic]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by YoungFilly:
However, I can see people chasing rabitts and such in a hunt. Thats no different than what a rifle style hunter does. But a coyote.. you can't eat it, I am sure you wouldn't want to make a pelt out of it... so why would you hunt it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty much for the same reason someone would kill a fox. THEY kill small livestock, like chickens. I've lost a number of chickens to both. Will shoot them dead if I get a chance.

[Tory Relic]

Badger -- Well put.

[Magnolia]

Badger-
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Unless EVERYONE with a complaint is a vegan, non leather wearing person, than their complaints are quite invalid. To harass hunters while one eats deceased cows (forced to be carnivores on feed lots), chickens crammed in hen houses or baby veal cows is quite hypocritical. YOU don't need to eat meats any more than fox hunters need to catch quarry.... and for the most part, Bessie has suffered far more than Foxy or Wiley.

To the poster who started this, I hope you continue to enjoy your activity.... though the ceremony sounded kind of disturbing.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

[Foxygrl516]

After a couple of days away from my computer, I was shocked to see that this thread has been reopened. I just thought I would share with you guys that I am still hunting and loving it more and more each time. I have not hunted with that pack since the occasion mentioned in the first post; not because i have a problem with them, they were very friendly people. I am joining a hunt as a "social member" for the remainder of the season. I have not seen any quarry accounted for since the hunt back in the fall, but it is more fun each time I hunt anyway. I am going to the master's ball in NYC next weekend which I am THRILLED about! I am hoping to really learn a lot about the sport on this trip.

I don't know that I have posted on the hunting forum since this thread. I've been here reading all along, just not much posting. I just thought I would fill you guys in on what I'm doing. I love the sport! I want to learn as much about it as I can! I hope everyone else can enjoy it and appreciate it as much as I do and I once again apologize for any misunderstandings in my initial post.

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy

[Whistlejacket]

Foxygrl -

Glad to hear the you are still around "these parts" and that you are enjoying foxhunting. Even though I have been hunting for awhile now, foxhunting still amazes me, and I consider it such a priviledge to be one of the lucky few to be able to participate in such a special sport. It sounds as though you are experiencing a similar type of awe.

And regarding the "activity" that your initial post generated...no problem...it was just a misunderstanding, and in fact, your post generated a good discussion.

Wasn't the post that "started it all" one of your initial posts on this forum? (and please realize that I am just kidding with you now)...but if that is so, Girl, you certainly know how to make an entrance! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Have fun!

[Foxygrl516]

Whistlejacket-

LOL. Yeah, that was one of my first posts on the hunting forum. What can I say http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif It is good to hear that people don't take such a great sport for granted. I am certainly in that state of awe as you put it.

~Keeping the Faith~
Stephanie and Foxy

[Badger]

Foxy, glad to hear you are a complete goner, having surrendered yourself to the hunting bug and not looked back. It is wonderfully addicting!

Happy Hunting