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vineyridge
Jan. 30, 2012, 08:40 AM
In the Horses in Sport issue of COTH. Any thoughts? I agree with his premise that longer term commitments to riders would be preferable to what we have now. He seems puzzled at the current state of our International program.

And since when did Aberjack become an Oldenburg? Chronicle ought to be ashamed of publishing that.

Backstage
Jan. 30, 2012, 11:10 AM
In the Horses in Sport issue of COTH. Any thoughts? I agree with his premise that longer term commitments to riders would be preferable to what we have now. He seems puzzled at the current state of our International program.

And since when did Aberjack become an Oldenburg? Chronicle ought to be ashamed of publishing that.

Ashamed? Really? He's not a TB (only 7/8th) and he is approved for breeding with the Oldenburg book. So while NZ Sport Horse is probably factually correct, I think its a bit much to say they should be "ashamed" of themselves.

I look forward to reading the piece, it doesn't seem to be online yet. There definitely does seem to be a short-term mindset in the US, which I find a bit puzzling. Minds should already be turning to 2014 and 2016.

Auburn
Jan. 30, 2012, 11:29 AM
Backstage,

7/8's is only 1/8th away from being a full TB. :sigh:

Having TB's registered in other (ie: Oldendburg) books is done all of the time. It still does not make Aberjack any less TB.

I believe that Sea Accounts is another example of a TB, who has been approved as a warmblood sire.

When looking for a sport horse, most upper level event riders look for TB's in the lineage.

I do not believe that the Chronicle should be ashamed, but maybe include the fact that Aberjack IS mostly TB. Don't ya think? :)

Backstage
Jan. 30, 2012, 12:52 PM
Backstage,

7/8's is only 1/8th away from being a full TB. :sigh:

Having TB's registered in other (ie: Oldendburg) books is done all of the time. It still does not make Aberjack any less TB.

I believe that Sea Accounts is another example of a TB, who has been approved as a warmblood sire.

When looking for a sport horse, most upper level event riders look for TB's in the lineage.

I do not believe that the Chronicle should be ashamed, but maybe include the fact that Aberjack IS mostly TB. Don't ya think? :)

I can't access the article, so I don't know the context. My point was simply that they can't list him as TB because he ISN'T a TB. He is 7/8th TB. I believe he is a registered New Zealand Sport Horse so that would have been correct reference. Whether it was then noted that he was primarily TB or not would be up to the author/editor. It would have been nice if they had also correctly identified him as being approved Oldenburg to avoid any confusion.

I really just took exception to the "ashamed" comment. I think its helpful to keep these sorts of thing in context!

LLDM
Jan. 30, 2012, 02:21 PM
Talk to the Jockey Club. They're the one's that make the rules about what is or is not a TB. If they have Aberjack in their studbooks, then you can be mad. :winkgrin:

They are often their own worst enemy. But no one gets to have it both ways...

SCFarm

Molly Sorge
Jan. 30, 2012, 02:27 PM
Just wanted to chime in here and let you all know that the pedigree information provided in the Eventing Statistical Review is provided to the Chronicle by the U.S. Eventing Association, and is the breeding information input by those who register individual horses. The Chronicle does not generate the information.

On page 60, he's identified as an Oldenburg in the pedigree info for Absolute Liberty, and on page 70, he's identified as a Thoroughbred in the pedigree info for Who's A Star.

Thanks! Molly Sorge

snoopy
Jan. 30, 2012, 02:39 PM
http://www.weatherbys.co.uk/sites/default/files/Conditions%20of%20Entry%20to%20Non-Thoroughbred%20Register.pdf

vineyridge
Jan. 30, 2012, 02:42 PM
Absolute Liberty's FEI passport has her as a TB. So the USEA must have entered some wrong information somewhere.
http://search.fei.org/Search_Centre/Horse/Pages/Detail.aspx?p=94B093A8B225D29F63484A0AEEBCBB23


Just wanted to chime in here and let you all know that the pedigree information provided in the Eventing Statistical Review is provided to the Chronicle by the U.S. Eventing Association, and is the breeding information input by those who register individual horses. The Chronicle does not generate the information.

On page 60, he's identified as an Oldenburg in the pedigree info for Absolute Liberty, and on page 70, he's identified as a Thoroughbred in the pedigree info for Who's A Star.

Thanks! Molly Sorge

Backstage
Jan. 30, 2012, 06:12 PM
Absolute Liberty's FEI passport has her as a TB. So the USEA must have entered some wrong information somewhere.
http://search.fei.org/Search_Centre/Horse/Pages/Detail.aspx?p=94B093A8B225D29F63484A0AEEBCBB23

Well, the FEI passport is ALSO wrong since she isn't a TB. 100% + 87.5% does not equal 100%.

And the USEA, to the best of my knowledge, relies on the information provided to it.

vineyridge
Jan. 30, 2012, 07:21 PM
For some unknown reason I believe that the USEF/FEI also relies on owner/rider information when they are issuing passports. That's why I assumed a USEA error rather than an owner/rider providing different information to different groups.

And it seems to be very common in the eventing world in Ireland, the UK and Down Under to call a very high Blood percentage horse a TB, even if it isn't pure. The dam is pure registered TB--Briartic x Pebble Beach. That means that Absolute Liberty is 15/16ths or more TB.

cyriz's mom
Jan. 30, 2012, 08:59 PM
well, until the JC pulls its proverbial head out...TB sporthorse breeders have very limited options for registering. In this case, since Aberjack is licensed by the GOV and the mare was approved by the GOV, the resulting foal was registerable as an Oldenburg and was even though, as pointed out, AL is 15/16s TB.

And GOV gets the bragging rights!

vineyridge
Jan. 30, 2012, 09:09 PM
It's Aberjack that is said to be an OLD. He isn't now, and never was. He may have been licensed to breed by Oldenburg, but that doesn't make him an Oldenburger. Is Absolute Liberty even registered?

I'm trying to trace Aberjack's pedigree and having the devil's own time. I like to use Official sources, and while Aberlou has two get in the New Zealand racing studbook, and is listed himself, they have absolutely no pedigree information for him in their online studbook. No sire and no dam listed. It's a bit disturbing. His purported dam also isn't listed on the New Zealand site.

Badger
Jan. 30, 2012, 09:17 PM
I believe that Aberjack is 31/32nd TB and 1/32nd arab. So his get out of a TB dam would be 1/64th arab and 63/64ths TB. Not a jockey club TB, though.

http://www.allbreedpedigree.com/aberjack

(If you look at this pedigree, the only unknown is the dam of "Cherry." Cherry is by the TB sire Hunting Song out of an unknown dam. So going back five generations, of the 16 ancestors one is unknown and the other 15 are Jockey Club TBs. My understanding from reading up on him a few years back is that there was arab in the mix on his dam's side.)

Ownedbyhim
Jan. 30, 2012, 09:37 PM
Aberjack is in fact New Zeland Sport Horse. He is not 100% TB and he is not registered with the Jockey Club. He was approved GOV years ago and since I paid to have him put back in the OHBS/GOV stallion book, his offspring are once again eligible to be registered thru them. Absolute Liberty is not registered TB, she is approved and registered as an Oldenburg. A lot of folks don't have any registration papers on the horses they event,,and alot of the information passed with horses from owner to owner is not corrected with USEA or on their lifetime recorded memberships. I renewed his approval with GOV so that mare owners do have a chance to register his future offspring and have access to a registry that will proudly keep track of all of them that choose to avail themselves of this option.
If you haven't seen the papers, or a copy of them, don't assume that anything you might hear is an actual fact.
Aberjack doesn't think any one should be ashamed of calling him a TB, or an Oldenburg ,all he cares about is that he gets the lion's share of attention! The GOV was delighted to have him back on their books and they had Absolute Liberty's accomplishments in banner headlines on their website long before Aberjack came into my hands. I currently have horses from 10 different registry's on my place...1 stallion and 11 mares,,rest are geldings. Which registry do you think will be inspecting all the foals by this one stallion????
BTW, if you are not breeding to him, why all the fuss over him being called Oldenburg?

cyriz's mom
Jan. 30, 2012, 09:38 PM
Yes, AL is registered GOV. If you go to their website and then scroll down the news link, there's a blurp about her.

To date, I haven't registered any of Cy's TB babies as warmbloods, but I know that it does happen and I believe that Fred has TB offspring registered with ISR/OldNA.

RSEventer
Jan. 30, 2012, 10:14 PM
Thanks "Owned by Him"...for setting it straight here!:lol: I had to laugh reading all the crazy hubbub about what breed these two fabulous horses are....who cares! They don't! What a great point!!!
I really kept reading the thread, THINKING it was gonna turn to what Buck said in the COTH between rounds article....but it never did!
I agreed with what Buck said, we need to extend the training grants to 3 yrs- not one year and requalify every year! That does seem nuts! But, change in huge bloated bureaucracies is slow- I should know- I work for one!
The article by Buck was well-written, I hope someone in charge reads it:eek:

JER
Jan. 30, 2012, 10:57 PM
Thanks "Owned by Him"...for setting it straight here!:lol: I had to laugh reading all the crazy hubbub about what breed these two fabulous horses are....who cares!

I'll tell you who cares: people who care about sport horse breeding.

When one sees the designation 'OLD' after Aberjack's name, one might be led to believe he's a WB from Lower Saxony rather than a mostly-TB sport horse bred in NZ from proven eventing lines.

Maybe it's cute to say 'oh my, the horse doesn't care what he is', but if you want to attract mare owners to your stallion, someone really should care what he is, especially when we can open the Chronicle magazine at regular intervals to read yet another article on why Americans lag behind Europe in sport horse breeding.

:)

Ownedbyhim
Jan. 31, 2012, 12:04 AM
especially when we can open the Chronicle magazine at regular intervals to read yet another article on why Americans lag behind Europe in sport horse breeding.

Wow, you feel that inferior to the European breeding programs that you take everything so personally? Americans lag behind the Europeans because they keep using flavor of the month stallions instead of using the proven sires that are disappearing from old age as we speak. 2 people are booked to breed to Aberjack this season, neither mare is registered or even part TB. I am breeding mares that while their papers may say KWPN or Holsteiner or even AHA, I know exactly what TB lines/% I have in them to get sporthorses. I don't walk around calling them TB crosses...they are in fact registered warmbloods. The TB mares that are JC will have to be GOV approved to register their foals. Again,,,thats the JC's perogative to lose credit for those foals being 31/32,7/8,15/16,1/2 TB.
All registry papers do is keep track of ancestry for those who care about that sort of thing. They don't alter what the horse actually does, physically change their soundness or lack of it,nor do they get you a break when you pay your entry fees.
If anybody on this current thread is actually booked to breed to this horse, its news to me. This thread was supposed to be about Buck's article, not breeding preferences.
I am not trying to be cute, nor do I care that some people feel outrage that the GOV is taking credit for horses that are part TB. They are not registerable as TB so get over it already. Yes Aberjack is part Arabian, no he is not everybody's ideal of a great TB...but at his age, with his accomplishments and those of his offspring..they speak for themselves.
Aberjack is 22 this year. If you (general) were going to breed to him, you either would have or you would have contacted Emersons or myself by now,following all the media attention he received and then Libby's big wins this year. Since, like I said, 2 outside mares are booked for the season, I know why European breeding programs are ahead of most of yours.
I agreed to take Aberjack into my barn regardless of what anybody else expected of him. I knew that even if all I did was breed a few of my own mares to him that I would never regret bringing him to CA. He is a magnificent creature and a joy to have. I can't make breeding decisions for others, but please stop blaming the foreign market, the riders, the coaches, the registrys that do approve TB's as licensed breeding stallions, the "backyard" mare owners. Take a look around your own yard...and take a step back and realize that none of "us" is the enemy. Take a risk, breed to a stallion that excites you, breed to a mare that is extremely maternal and don't expect the foal to be as flat and dry as the registration papers it may or may not have!

JER
Jan. 31, 2012, 12:56 AM
Wow, you feel that inferior to the European breeding programs that you take everything so personally?

I'm not sure how or where you got the above notion if you actually read my post. There was nothing personal about it.

When I said that the Chronicle has run numerous articles over numerous years about the superiority of the Euro-breds, I was stating a fact. In case you've missed those reports, here's a recent one: We Need To Stop Outsourcing Our Horse Supply (http://www.chronofhorse.com/article/future-us-show-jumping-part-3-we-need-stop-outsourcing-our-horse-supply).


Americans lag behind the Europeans because they keep using flavor of the month stallions instead of using the proven sires that are disappearing from old age as we speak.

I don't agree with you. There are much bigger issues, like mare quality or stallion qualifications or the lack of a national sport horse registry that tracks a horse through its competitive career.

Speaking personally, I use proven eventing sires for my mares. Some are so proven that they've been dead for years when I breed my mares to them.


I am not trying to be cute, nor do I care that some people feel outrage that the GOV is taking credit for horses that are part TB. They are not registerable as TB so get over it already.

Your 'get over it already' makes it seem like you do care. Otherwise, why be rude?


Yes Aberjack is part Arabian, no he is not everybody's ideal of a great TB...but at his age, with his accomplishments and those of his offspring..they speak for themselves.

I think we would all agree about Aberjack's accomplishments as a sire. I thought everyone here agreed that you were doing a wonderful thing in taking on Aberjack in his senior years.

Yet you seem to feel slighted by or have a chip on your shoulder about this thread. It all begain with vineyridge wondering why Aberjack was listed as an Oldenburg in the Chronicle, which is a legitimate question given his actual bloodlines.


Take a look around your own yard...and take a step back and realize that none of "us" is the enemy. Take a risk, breed to a stallion that excites you, breed to a mare that is extremely maternal and don't expect the foal to be as flat and dry as the registration papers it may or may not have!

But just a few unbroken paragraphs back, in this very same post, you were scolding US breeders for 'using flavor of the month stallions instead of using the proven sires that are disappearing from old age as we speak.'

So which is it?

vineyridge
Jan. 31, 2012, 08:57 AM
I'm happy to pimp for Aberjack as an eventing sire. He's proving himself with his get. With the right mare, you can at least hope for FEI level potential with him. He has an excellent pedigree for performance--but it ain't North German.

Just because he is licensed by the Oldenburg people to breed doesn't make him an Oldenburger. One expects far different outcomes from a horse with German WB lines than one does from a horse who is mostly TB. That's why correct identification of his lineage would be important to people who are stallion searching.

gnu
Jan. 31, 2012, 09:29 AM
re: USEA registration. If the sire and dam are of different breeds, then in a horse search the horse is listed as one of them. I've had a number of crosses, and in each case this has been the result; ie a trak. parent, a tb parent, USEA lists horse as TB, but if one calls up the complete listing, then one sees both parents names and correct breed ID.

SEPowell
Jan. 31, 2012, 10:16 AM
cyriz's mom

well, until the JC pulls its proverbial head out...TB sporthorse breeders have very limited options for registering. In this case, since Aberjack is licensed by the GOV and the mare was approved by the GOV, the resulting foal was registerable as an Oldenburg and was even though, as pointed out, AL is 15/16s TB.

And GOV gets the bragging rights!

Even if the Jockey Club agreed to do that, you'd have to wait a very long time for them to agree on what percentage to allow. :lol:

The Jockey Club will be registering about 20,000 very athletic full thoroughbreds this year so they're just not interested in making provisions for horses whose breeding doesn't show 100% committment to speed. It's not their loss, apparently it's the loss of only those who are interested in using tbs to breed sporthorses. Since that's the case it's up to you to form an organization that's willing to define a thoroughbred by the % of thoroughbred in his pedigree. If you're willing to do that, your potential buyers will be able to identify horses who are XX% thoroughbred by its inclusion in that organization.

Peregrine Farm
Jan. 31, 2012, 10:46 AM
This seems a tempest in a teapot. Anyone paying the slightest bit of attention knows that registries like the GOV or Oldenburg N.A. accept a wide variety of horses of various backgrounds into their registry, including a lot of full thoroughbreds. Although some Hanoverian and Trakehner afficianados might consider their registries as distinct breeds, even the more closed warmblood books are better understood as a registry for horses of a particular type. Even with the more closed books, one should always look behind the label attached to a horse, especially if it is one of the warmblood registries. I believe that anyone other than the most casual observer understands this (and if they don't, then that's a much bigger problem than calling Aberjack an Oldenburg).

Certainly, it would been more accurate and preferable to have identified Aberjack as a bay, 16.1 hand, 15/16 TB, 1/16 Arabian by Aberlou born in 1990 and imported from New Zealand, ridden by Mark Todd, who has been approved as a New Zealand Sporthorse and by the GOV. If one is going to use the stallion for breeding, then one will (or should) know that anyway -- that information is readily available and easily found.

In the limited sense that any horse registered with the GOV is an "Oldenburg", the shorthand notation for Aberjack is not incorrect. I suspect that the concern is that full or mostly-TB sires are not getting the credit that some believe they are due. I sympathize with that, but this is not the way to address it.

We either need to give the readers of such information more credit, or we have a far worse educational issue than I imagined.

vineyridge
Jan. 31, 2012, 10:59 AM
PF, Aberjack is not now nor has he ever been registered as an Oldenburger. He is LICENSED by them to produce registrable Oldenburgers. There is a huge difference between being registered and being licensed.

Peregrine Farm
Jan. 31, 2012, 12:33 PM
Point taken, I think -- just reviewed the GOV handbook. It is not entirely clear, but generally stallions are referred to as being "approved and licensed," mares are referred to as being "approved" (with distinctions between mare books) and foals can be "registered."

Ultimately, though, it is a distinction without any difference. It is just a label regardless of whether one says "approved" Oldenburg or "registered" Oldenburg. One can have a "registered" or "approved" or "licensed" Oldenburg who is full or mostly-TB.

Ownedbyhim
Jan. 31, 2012, 01:34 PM
Vineyridge was not "wondering" why Aberjack was listed as Oldenburg. She was rather rude in her statement that the Chronicle should be ashamed. Emersons had him approved many years ago. Why all the fuss now?

13 years ago, I took my young anglo-arabian stallion for Old/ISR stallion approval..at the time, the Arabian Horse Assn did not allow 1/2 arabian stallions to show,breed,compete or be registered with them. I was not breeding "Arabian" sport horses, I was producing SPORT HORSES.I had showed in hand in open shows against warmbloods. So I went to a registry that would either give him breeding/lineage status or not. He missed stallion approval by .5 conformation points. He is now a great gelding, has no offspring.My interest was not to have a mediocre half arabian stallion,but an approved sport horse stallion. He is getting ready to move up to advanced this season, as is his full brother.His maternal half sister is going 1*. They are out of a JC mare..there is no one registry for them that gives the fabulous OTTB mare any credit for her produce without large expense to have each one inspected and approved. She had a Tb foal, an Appendix QH, 3 anglos and a KWPN foal. All registered.All jumpers and great movers with brains. Get up in arms that the TB registry doesn't offer offspring out of JC TB mares a "half registry."This would actually be beneficial to keeping track of sporthorse lineage in this country. This is how the Appendix QH registry came to be..trying to infuse TB blood into racing QH stock and they needed to be able to keep track of it...some folks are still arguing that this was the demise of the QH breed and have started a "Foundation QH" registry for those with no TB blood for any ancestor. This is why Aberjack is NZ Sport Horse and NOT NZ TB. His lineage has something other then pure TB blood from his Dam's line. Its why there is not only an Anglo-Arabian regsitry, there is also a Half-Arabian registry and then of course the Purebred registry. I see GOV on a horse and the last thing I think is that it means the horse is of German descent. Purebred Arabians with the AHA don't mean they are domestic..they have on their papers which stud book (Polish,Russian,Spanish,etc) the ancestors were registered with. If you are inbreeding, linebreeding, breeding for specific body type,,those things become very important to you (general) if you are breeding for generations.
Most people are only breeding to get the F1 cross...they don't care about female tail lines and black type and */ and they aren't looking to ride the great grandaughters of a mare they had when they were a kid. People like Denny Emerson are the exception in this world. He is a national treasure of genetic information.The folks that run most of the registrys that have US based offices/branches are the same. They are the registrys.

These horses reside,compete, breed to other local horses..of course they are no longer German or English or Portugese..they are, in my case, American cross breeding.Who their ancestors are 5 generations back is a very small part of the picture.In every gene pool, there is a bell curve. You are not going to only produce horses from the top 1/2 or 1/3 of that bell curve. No one is, thats where having lineage information comes into play. If you are breeding for one purpose/type of horse then you had better not have any holes in your pedigree research.I agree. But I don't breed just one type. I breed for sound athletes, who, once they are on the ground and under saddle determine what field of sport they will persue. I cross train and prefer dressage and jumping horses..that doesn't mean I haven't bred for cutting and reining and driving and endurance...etc. You have to be willing to cull the horses that come from the crosses that don't produce what you are looking for. Change stallions, don't breed the mare,sell her. Don't register the offspring. Thats a very personal decsion but most people I know that want a foal don't have aspirations of producing GP dressage horses or NCHA champions, or 4* eventers..they just like their mare and want another nice horse to ride.

vineyridge
Jan. 31, 2012, 02:27 PM
How often do I have to say that the fact that Aberjack was approved and licensed to breed registerable Oldenburg foals DOES NOT MAKE HIM Oldenburg himself. He is now and always has been a New Zealand Sport Horse; and I'd bet most eventers would prefer breeding to a horse with that background than an Oldenburger. The Chronicle may have received inaccurate information from the USEA, which may have received inaccurate information from Absolute Liberty's owner. I have no problems whatsoever with Absolute Liberty being described as an Oldenburger even though she is probably 90% TB, because that is her registry. But people who use the Chonicle for research would know that she had NO German WB blood if her sire was designated a NZSH or just NZ and her dam as TB. And that to me says a good bit about her Advanced Potential, where saying that she is an Oldenburger from an Oldenburger sire smacks of disinformation.

Robby Johnson
Jan. 31, 2012, 05:47 PM
I'll tell you who cares: people who care about sport horse breeding.

When one sees the designation 'OLD' after Aberjack's name, one might be led to believe he's a WB from Lower Saxony rather than a mostly-TB sport horse bred in NZ from proven eventing lines.

Maybe it's cute to say 'oh my, the horse doesn't care what he is', but if you want to attract mare owners to your stallion, someone really should care what he is, especially when we can open the Chronicle magazine at regular intervals to read yet another article on why Americans lag behind Europe in sport horse breeding.

:)

I most definitely agree. It's all about walking the talk and, yes, the devil IS in the details. Stringent breeding practices must include consistent (and accurate) references beyond the breeding shed. This is how credibility is established.

magicteetango
Jan. 31, 2012, 06:42 PM
Ownedbyhim, Viney is a TB enthusiast and bloodline expert. I am sure she meant nothing negative by it about Aberjack. It is crucial people know TBs (and those with a dash of Arab) are performing at high levels, and like she said he is approved Oldenburg, not registered as such. Aberjack is a famous horse, I don't think she was wrong in assuming COTH or their sources would list him correctly. Yeah, obviously we don't ride the papers... But the more accurate info there is about a stallion, the easier it is to pick a stallion... Although Aberjack's record speaks for itself of course.

I cannot wait to see pictures of his foals with you, it would also be great if you had a website so that info about him was more easily accessible. Who knows, maybe you have one and I just couldn't find it last time I looked! Best of luck with him!

PineTreeFarm
Jan. 31, 2012, 09:36 PM
I'm happy to pimp for Aberjack as an eventing sire. He's proving himself with his get. With the right mare, you can at least hope for FEI level potential with him. He has an excellent pedigree for performance--but it ain't North German.

Just because he is licensed by the Oldenburg people to breed doesn't make him an Oldenburger. One expects far different outcomes from a horse with German WB lines than one does from a horse who is mostly TB. That's why correct identification of his lineage would be important to people who are stallion searching.

What's your point?
There are lots of US bred horses who are recorded OLD who have never been near N Germany. Does that make them any less of an OLD?
Why would I expect 'far different outcomes'? People will breed to him for what he brings to the equation. And this case it's proven Eventing bloodlines not matter what designation you want to apply.

Perhaps the correct description should have been NZ SportHorse Appoved OLD. But that doesn't change the fact that his offspring are eligible to be recorded OLD.

Mostly TB means nothing. It's either TB or not. And he is in the 'not' category. Although I do wish we had a registry similar to Weatherby's for 'almost' TB's. But till that time comes there aren't that many options.

Drvmb1ggl3
Jan. 31, 2012, 10:14 PM
The irony of this thread is that the CoTH has in the past referred to Buck Davidson's own Ballynoe Castle as an Irish "Thoroughbred" (he's by Ramiro B out of an ISH mare). Don't remember many knickers getting twisted over that.

cyriz's mom
Feb. 1, 2012, 12:44 AM
SEPowell - What I am saying is that there are full TBs being registered as warmbloods or with PHR due to the use of AI.

What I will never understand with the JC is why they can't buy a $10 rubber stamp and stamp the papers "NOT eligible to race" on TBs conceived via AI.

To me, that's just a money maker for them and a potential PR bonanza as it would encourage the use of their new incentive programs and the use of OTTBs has sport horses for second careers.

Sorry, I'll step off my soap box now.

SEPowell
Feb. 1, 2012, 09:09 AM
SEPowell - What I am saying is that there are full TBs being registered as warmbloods or with PHR due to the use of AI.

What I will never understand with the JC is why they can't buy a $10 rubber stamp and stamp the papers "NOT eligible to race" on TBs conceived via AI.

To me, that's just a money maker for them and a potential PR bonanza as it would encourage the use of their new incentive programs and the use of OTTBs has sport horses for second careers.

Sorry, I'll step off my soap box now.

I see. I didn't realize you were referring to the AI issue. I suspect for them that opens a similar can of worms, though.

Napoles
Feb. 1, 2012, 12:29 PM
The irony of this thread is that the CoTH has in the past referred to Buck Davidson's own Ballynoe Castle as an Irish "Thoroughbred" (he's by Ramiro B out of an ISH mare). Don't remember many knickers getting twisted over that.

The ISH mare was mainly TB, but I agree with you - calling him an Irish TB is a bit strange, not to mention inaccurate.

subk
Feb. 1, 2012, 01:10 PM
Mostly TB means nothing.
If you are trying to breed an international quality eventer "mostly TB" means everything!

The overwhelming number of the the horses that do well at the top are more than 50% TB. TB is by FAR the most prevalent blood in eventers. Yet breeders in this country--with the encouragement of the USEA and their FEH and YEH programs--continually present us with their "mostly WBs" touting them as having UL potential breeding when their breed profiles don't look anything like what's winning at the UL.

The problem is the national consciousness of eventers has begun to believe the "WB blood for eventing" hype without realizing the stats. A little goes a long way and instead of focusing on the big part (TB) we've put way to much focus on the little part. Some of us think that's a shame--not to mention a burden when it comes to breeding top eventers in the US.

If I owned a mostly TB stallion I was marketing to eventers and a national publication called him an Oldenburg I would be pretty upset.

PineTreeFarm
Feb. 1, 2012, 03:00 PM
If I owned a mostly TB stallion I was marketing to eventers and a national publication called him an Oldenburg I would be pretty upset.

Why?
You can't record the offspring as TB and you shouldn't be marketing them as TB ( unless you have serious ethical issues ). BUT you can record the offspring as OLD.

Sorry but I hope you aren't advocating advertising 'almost' TB's as real TB's. Or maybe you are?

If you'd been paying attention you would have noticed that I said that a separate registry would be great for these 'close to tb' stallions.

Janet
Feb. 1, 2012, 03:28 PM
My sister is currently marketing one of her Aberjack x Sportscar babies (now 8).

Would it make her more or less saleable to call her "half Oldenburg"? :D

JER
Feb. 1, 2012, 04:23 PM
Why?
You can't record the offspring as TB and you shouldn't be marketing them as TB ( unless you have serious ethical issues ). BUT you can record the offspring as OLD.

Sorry but I hope you aren't advocating advertising 'almost' TB's as real TB's. Or maybe you are?

I think the bigger point subk is making is that, in eventing, blood is more important than papers, registries or studbook affiliations.

If I saw an ad for a mare that was advertised as an OLD/TB cross, it wouldn't catch my interest as it would if she were billed as 'by Aberjack and out of a TB mare' or simply 'by NZSH sire Aberjack.'

subk
Feb. 1, 2012, 05:19 PM
Why?
You can't record the offspring as TB and you shouldn't be marketing them as TB ( unless you have serious ethical issues ). BUT you can record the offspring as OLD.
In eventing no one should give a damn what breed your horse is registered if it can perform in competiton. Statistically horses of primarily TB blood are overwhemingly the most successful horses at upper level eventing, so if you are breeding the resulting percentage of TB blood in your potential offspring is much more important that what WB registry is involved. (Unless you're trying to reinvent the wheel.)

Successful UL event horses tend to be primarily TB with a little thoughtfully added WB blood, yet in the US we seem to be breeding WBs with some random TB blood thrown in because it is more marketable to stick a designer brand on them than actually produce a pedigree profile that is similar to the top horses.

We'd be better off breeding more to proven 3/4, 7/8, full TB stallions to produce UL eventers, but we mask a high %TB behind a designer name when the TBness is really more important than the WB brand. head-to-desk. If we were smart when marketing toward eventing a stallion would be listed first with his percentage of TB then any registry affilliation.

So: "Aberjack, 15/16th TB" is MUCH more useful information to an eventer than "Aberjack, OLD approved." Best of course is "Aberjack, 15/16th TB, OLD approved." Calling Aberjack an Oldenburg is just poor journalism and really I expect better of COTH.

The U.S. facination and hangup on breed registries has a negative effect on our breeding of UL event horses.

bornfreenowexpensive
Feb. 1, 2012, 06:39 PM
I wasn't going to wade into this mess but


Honestly...most people who care about breeding, including riders...don't really put much weight in what is published in a magazine or listed with the USEF/FEI. They want to know more than just breed a horse is or who they are registered with....those two bits of information really don't tell you much at all.

You tell me a horse is a TB...or OLD...or a WB/cross. That is fine...but what I will ask is who is the sire, who is the dam, who is the dam sire etc. I want to know their PEDIGREE. A registry like OLD is great because it gives a mutt horse a recorded pedigree that someone interested in breeding and bloodlines can look up.

I love TBs..but not all TBs are the same. Just having "blood" in the pedigree doesn't mean all that much. I want to know what lines. I know that when I hear a horse is a WB/TB cross or ISH or even TB...they could have blood lines I like...or could have undesireable blood lines. It just plain doesn't tell me too much other than I need to find out more information.

I LOOK up the pedigrees of WBs etc. And anyone truly interested in breeding...is going to take that little step to do the same no matter what you call them. So I really really really don't see the big deal.

Of course none of this really has anything to do with Buck Davidson's comments in Between Rounds. That might be an intersting conversation.


ETA: FWIW my own mare by Aberjack out of a TB mare I listed as a TBcross. Because that is what she was even though she is 15/16 TB in her pedigree. He dam is JC registered and I know her pedigree but since the dam was never presented...my mare isn't registered any where.

AlterEgoME
Feb. 1, 2012, 06:40 PM
Why?
You can't record the offspring as TB and you shouldn't be marketing them as TB ( unless you have serious ethical issues ). BUT you can record the offspring as OLD.

Sorry but I hope you aren't advocating advertising 'almost' TB's as real TB's. Or maybe you are?

If you'd been paying attention you would have noticed that I said that a separate registry would be great for these 'close to tb' stallions.

It isn't about the registry. It is about the BLOOD/genetics. Eventers at the top level want the BLOOD. They want to know they are sitting on an almost TB AND for people owning those almost TB stallions it is important for mare owners to know that the top horses are NOT Oldenburgs or Hannovarians. They are TB's or mostly TB's. One can say whatever they want about registries. But as Robby said, the devil is in the details and the fact is the horse is mostly TB, can't be Jockey Club registered.

Frankly, I understand why the JC doesn't give a hoot. It is about racing for them. Nothing else. Buying a $10 rubber stamp doesn't begin to quantify the cost to register "not eligible to race" horses. Sad, but that's life.

regeventer
Feb. 1, 2012, 06:47 PM
WOW - thought this post has something to do with Buck Davidson?????

whicker
Feb. 1, 2012, 07:05 PM
In classic CotH fashion, the thread and the title parted ways long about the first fence.
Maybe another Buck thread would be in order...

retreadeventer
Feb. 1, 2012, 07:41 PM
.....Stringent breeding practices must include consistent (and accurate) references beyond the breeding shed. This is how credibility is established.

Ownedbyhim, you cannot take on JER, Viney, etc. here in their house. You will not win. They have years of practice in COTH-brand rhetoric, sleep on beds of nails, eat small alligators, pitchforks, and rednecks for BREAKFAST and wash it down with motor oil. Just a little warning....

RSEventer
Feb. 1, 2012, 07:51 PM
Ownedbyhim, you cannot take on JER, Viney, etc. here in their house. You will not win. They have years of practice in COTH-brand rhetoric, sleep on beds of nails, eat small alligators, pitchforks, and rednecks for BREAKFAST and wash it down with motor oil. Just a little warning....

Too funny! Yeah, some COTH posters take themselves WAY SERIOUSLY! Must be very proud of themselves to "set straight" the owner of Aberjack! Armchair quarterback, anyone? LOL:lol::lol:

JER
Feb. 1, 2012, 09:12 PM
Too funny! Yeah, some COTH posters take themselves WAY SERIOUSLY! Must be very proud of themselves to "set straight" the owner of Aberjack! Armchair quarterback, anyone? LOL:lol::lol:

I'm no armchair quarterback, RSEventer.

I do take breeding eventers very seriously and will continue to do so until someone can prove to me that I'll get better results by (1) being ignorant, and (2) breeding Whatever to Whatever.

:)

Blugal
Feb. 1, 2012, 10:15 PM
Too funny! Yeah, some COTH posters take themselves WAY SERIOUSLY! Must be very proud of themselves to "set straight" the owner of Aberjack! Armchair quarterback, anyone? LOL:lol::lol:

Give me a break. It's an interesting discussion, and one that we should be having. But why should we let the facts get in the way of our opinions?

fooler
Feb. 1, 2012, 10:38 PM
Not a breeder myself, but spent some 25+ years working/training in breeding establishments.
Major lessons learned?
*Breeding is not for the faint of heart
*Breeding will break your heart
*Everyone has their own opinion about breeding
*Everyone's breeding opinion is correct at least once.

What I find 'offensive' is when a horse, who is obviously 1/2+TB is listed as a WB breed. I prefer the horse be listed as a TB/WB cross. Then post both the TB and the WB dam/sire.
Not blaming COTH - just look at the stallion ads in the January issues. The owners are listing the WB lines without listing the TB lines.

For what it is worth, I left a primarily TB barn and was boarding/working with a WB breeder. The WB breeder looked down her nose at my registered TB mare, who has really nice old school line. The WB breeder was actually embarassed to have the mare on her property!:eek: Little wonder I left there as quickly as possible.

Buck does make some very valid points. Specifically we need consistancy in choosing riders/horses for additional training and for a longer period of time. I really appreciated his closing line of he needed to live what he preached.

JER
Feb. 1, 2012, 11:09 PM
Well said, fooler.

I haven't read Buck's column (is there a link?) but what fooler said about 'consistancy in choosing riders/horses for additional training and for a longer period of time', reminded me of the program that British Eventing has for identifying talent horses.

British Eventing -- World Class Equine Pathway (http://www.britisheventing.com/page.asp?section=674&sectionTitle=World+Class+Equine+Pathway)


The purpose of the Pathway is to identify horses that have the potential to develop into medal winning horses. The Programme will then work with and support the riders and the owners of the horses in order to help them maximise the horses' potential. It is also hoped that the Programme will encourage owners to keep their horses with British riders and will enhance GBR's chances at the 2012 Olympic Games and beyond.

Ownedbyhim
Feb. 7, 2012, 01:16 PM
This discussion of TB % vs WB registry is valid. It was not the title of this thread and as usual, it took its own track......But Peregrine Farm made some good points above. Magicteetango,,there is no website, I don't have time to do that and ride/train/breed right now. He is available to outside mares this year, by contacting me. Janet, I renewed his Oldenburg approval for those people that want the option of having registration papers on Aberjack offspring. Papers don't prove a thing if the actual horse never performs in life like his papers show he should, but right now it is the option I took to give people who want papers and a registry to back up their breeding lines.
Subk, I own the stallion in question and I am not upset that they don't refer to him as "TB" but Oldenburg. Right now, any body can claim that their horse is by Aberjack and there is nothing to prove them wrong other then DNA tests. He didn't have that many foals on the ground in the last few years so they are like hens teeth.
Retreadeventer and RSEventer,,,Thanks! and don't worry about me, I took my homebred non-TB registered horses to an event, watched them perform brilliantly and then picked up another broodmare on the way home for Aberjack's harem here at home. Oh yeah, she is not "American breeding" either, she is NZSH as well!
I was greeted at my front gate by Aberjack, at 11:30 at night. He is well, and ready to start work. Really, if it bothers you that much that eventers can't figure out how to research bloodlines and ask questions about which of the many TB lines are sucessfull in their sport then maybe you should have them all contact you and get your permission before they breed anything that you might want the say so in how they are perceived by the rest of us ordinary folks.