Does anybody else think this is silly?

[Equibrit]

Denmark's Ruby Red and Starbuck's Prince Denmark WOW Judge at American Warmblood Inspection

Starbuck's Prince Denmark and dam Denmark's Ruby Red had their American Warmblood inspection today, presented by Beth DiCicco and Joan Blood.

Red was rated Red Preferred, and her colt Starbuck was rated Supreme. With a score of 87.5, Starbuck was first out of 25 horses entered. The judge said he was one of the best foals she'd ever seen and she expected to see him in year-end national standings.

After judging was over, the judge asked about Starbuck's breeding, particularly his sire. Beth replied, "The sire is Buck's Co-Star. The foal is 100% Saddlebred." The judge's mouth fell open and she said "SADDLEBRED??!!!!?". Oh, the stealth Saddlebreds, they are sweet....

Our thanks to Beth DiCicco for a superb job, to Al Parillo and John Galliano for showing us the way, to Lynn Harrington and Corine Crossmon for their ongoing help and encouragement, and to Marge Mullen for her unending promotion of the versatility of this finest breed.
http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/out%20and%20about.htm

[Equibrit]

Denmark's Ruby Red and Starbuck's Prince Denmark WOW Judge at American Warmblood Inspection

Starbuck's Prince Denmark and dam Denmark's Ruby Red had their American Warmblood inspection today, presented by Beth DiCicco and Joan Blood.

Red was rated Red Preferred, and her colt Starbuck was rated Supreme. With a score of 87.5, Starbuck was first out of 25 horses entered. The judge said he was one of the best foals she'd ever seen and she expected to see him in year-end national standings.

After judging was over, the judge asked about Starbuck's breeding, particularly his sire. Beth replied, "The sire is Buck's Co-Star. The foal is 100% Saddlebred." The judge's mouth fell open and she said "SADDLEBRED??!!!!?". Oh, the stealth Saddlebreds, they are sweet....

Our thanks to Beth DiCicco for a superb job, to Al Parillo and John Galliano for showing us the way, to Lynn Harrington and Corine Crossmon for their ongoing help and encouragement, and to Marge Mullen for her unending promotion of the versatility of this finest breed.
http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/out%20and%20about.htm

[Lianne]

Why exactly do you think this is silly, Equibrit? Enlighten me please, because I just don't see it.

I'm glad you posted that link, though. I hope everyone takes a good look at Harry Callahan, ridden by Chrissa Hoffman. A fine example of a talented Saddlebred competing in Dressage. Lovely horse, and I love that pic! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Happy Bunny]

Maybe this is why the AWR and AWS get so little respect from warmblood breeders. While saddlebred crosses are nice, they are not warmbloods. Not any more than draft crosses are warmbloods.

[Gayla]

Easy, whoaa there nellie!!! Why are you ladies soooo prickly?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Mariesonny]

Nothing against other breeds of horse and there are many good individuals out there but...

I agree that this is why the American registries are not taken seriously. Take him to Devon and beat the warmbloods on the line and under saddle (at a level other than training level) and then it won't be silly.

[Equibrit]

Why "disguise" a Saddlebred as an American Warmblood? Is being a Saddlebred not good enough?

[Gayla]

we've done this before. boring.

[LEP Enterprises, LLC]

That was an AWS inspection, not AWR

please keep your registries straight.

[Spectrum]

Okay, someone needs to explain this to me....

What kind of "warmblood" registry is inspecting and registering foals, THEN asking about the bloodlines? Shouldn't that tell you something right there?

Sheesh.... Yeah, and my next point is that besides WHEN they asked, they shouldn't have needed to ask- wasn't there some sort of breeding certificate or pedigrees on the sire and dam available?

How can you "register" a horse without some sort of proof of parentage?!?!

Spectrum.

[Paramedics Rule!]

Um, Happy Bunny, the horse in question is NOT a crossbred...so your point is moot.
Mariesonny, if you do a bit of research, you will find that there have been pure ASB's competing in line classes at Devon.
Equibrit, I don't see how this person disguised her saddlebred...?
And to Spectrum.....I beleive that the horse in question DOES have papers, therefore that would be considered proof of parentage does it not?

I'll bet if the horse in question was a "palomino TB" everyone on this board would be gushing over it.....and guess what? A TB isn't a warmblood either, but no-one on this board would think it would be "silly" if a TB got high marks at an AWR or AWS inspection.

Sad....really sad.

[Lianne]

And a reminder to Spectrum: the info on the horse's pedigree as well as contact info for the owner would have been submitted and kept by the show manager/secretary, not the judge. Unless things are done differently at AWS/AWR inspections, the judges should only have their judge card in front of them, not the pedigree info on each and every horse entered. That would be a LOT of paperwork to carry around while they're judging in the ring, they'd look pretty stupid with a stack of photocopied pedigrees in their arms, don't you think? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[SportArab]

OK... I've seen the saddlebred class at Devon.. I wasn't impressed...

Are you saying that saddlebreds have competed in the open in hand classes - that is, the yearling, two year old, etc - and have beat other breeds, including warmbloods?

[Lianne]

yes, they have, and here's an example:
http://www.horsesdaily.com/news/scoresource/2003/dressage/03dev/breed/4_2ycg.html

Borealis showed in the Open 2 year old colts division against well-bred WBs and WBx and received a very respectable score. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm surprised that you, SportArab, as a breeder of Arab sporthorses, would have such a snide and close-minded attitude. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[nhwr]

USDF guidlines require and many registries prefer to inspect and judge without knowledge of bloodlines. It keeps polictics to a minimum that way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif TB's are routinely used in WB breeding, saddlebreds are not.

[Lianne]

Thank you for clarifying, nhwr. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[siegi b.]

Borealis came in 17th out of 21 and you call that respectable? I think it falls under "also ran".....

[Jean S.]

Well, I was the one who posted that. They were not trying to be warmbloods. Far from it. They are trying to promote Saddlebreds as sporthorses and getting them acknowledged through AWS is one way to go. It was recommended to them by a good freind of theirs who is a USDF certified instructor and riding at Grand Prix. If you knew anything about the history of the Saddlebred, you'd know that they were originally bred and trained to do everything AND with elegance. SportArab, I was a longtime Arab owner and there are a lot of arabs out there that aren't too impressive. The Saddlebred that won at Devon got a score in the high 70's by Hilda Gurney. You should have been impressed. A good horse is a good horse is a good horse, no matter what the breed. Why condemn someone for trying to make a difference in a breed? Thanks Lianne! Jean S.

[Lianne]

I was looking at his SCORE, siegi. And yes, I consider his score to be perfectly respectable. He also beat out an NAWPN colt, and a SWB by L.A. Baltic Sundance, who I'm sure is a lovely colt, are you saying that their scores are even more "dismissable"?

Funny, I'd be willing to bet that if the owners of those two colts had posted their results proudly on this board, everyone would've patted them on their backs and said a hearty congratulations....

The hypocrisy on this board is unREAL. Might I remind you guys that this is a SPORT HORSE BREEDING FORUM, not a WARMBLOOD breeding forum? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Does it feel good to be so narrow-minded and biased, siegi?

[Jean S.]

Lianne, I stand corrected. 72%. For those who are so quick to condemn, "Your horses scored what?" Jean

[SportArab]

Look.. I don't have a problem with saddlebreds, per se. But what I saw in the saddlebred class in 2001 was NOT impressive. Very very hyper horses with hollow backs and hind ends trailing.

And what is being chosen in the open class is the horse/foal that appears to be best suited to do dressage... not the horse that looks the most like a warmblood... Warmbloods tend to win because they been bred for the characteristics that are desireable in the sport diciplines for many years.

It's possible that you could show me a saddlebred that I would think could excel at dressage, just haven't seen any at Devon.

[Lianne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SportArab:
Look.. I don't have a problem with saddlebreds, per se. But what I saw in the saddlebred class in 2001 was NOT impressive. Very very hyper horses with hollow backs and hind ends trailing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And I've seen Arabs in the low-level competition ring dragging their poor riders around at a million miles an hour with hollow backs, tails and noses to the sky. What's your point? We're not talking about the 2001 ASB class, this thread was about this year's inspection, and this colt and his dam. Blanket statements are not appreciated, I'm sure you can attest to that.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And what is being chosen in the open class is the horse/foal that appears to be best suited to do dressage... not the horse that looks the most like a warmblood... Warmbloods tend to win because they been bred for the characteristics that are desireable in the sport diciplines for many years. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, what's your point?? Jean already explained why these ASB's were presented at this inspection. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It's possible that you could show me a saddlebred that I would think could excel at dressage, just haven't seen any at Devon. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, I can show you a whole bunch! That actually ARE excelling, not ones who simply "could"! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif


Last of all, I am going to quote something YOU posted on another thread:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A well conformed Arabian (and there are plenty of them out there) has the structure to excell in the sport horse events.

I'm really tired of having to combat this particular misconeption. There are ill conformed horses in any breed - including warmbloods <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ahem.... this first comment applies to Saddlebreds, as well, SportArab. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Why must you complain about the abuse and misconception about your breed and then turn around and spout the same stuff about another breed, hmmm?

[Jean S.]

This is Bo at Devon 2003.

http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/gallery/index.html

[Jean S.]

Okay, then click on Champions. Borealis is first on the list. Jean

[Lianne]

oops, nevermind

[sil]

If it's silly to take great pride and enjoyment in beating the odds, then there are many 'silly' people out there =)

It's hard to appreciate how much it means to do well at a judging like this when you have a horse of a breed that is normally 'pooh poohed'. Often these people have to work against a lot of prejudice, negative sweeping comments and downright rudeness - yet they continue to believe and persevere and stick their neck out.

It doesn't matter what breed it is - just let people have their day in the sun. Goodness knows they deserve it =)

[trailblazer]

What's so "funny" about scoring an 87.5 and being 1st out of 25??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Sounds pretty darn good to me! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[eurofoal]

I would never knock anybody for pursuing their dreams. They put their money where their mouth is and brought the horses they bred to Devon.

More than I've done, I might add.

Live and let live--BEst of luck to all of you!

[SportArab]

Look.. you folks brought up Devon, not me. I'm simply addressing what I saw.

As for the inspection... well, it's up to you folks what you do with your foals... but I don't feel a need to present my purebred foals with any non arab registries. I would consider presenting a stallion to a registry for approval for breeding.

[Equibrit]

Why does a papered Saddlebred have to be presented at a warmblood inspection? What is wrong with competing as a Saddlebred, breeding as a Saddlebred and continuing to do the breed proud as a SADDLEBRED?

[Castlegate]

Equibrit: That is MY question.....
why bother? You already have a pure-bred registered horse, why pursue a registry in addition. UNLESS, you want to expand your breeding possibilities and cross that purebred standardbred with a WB Cross? But if one feels so strongly about how wonderful the ASB is, why cross it? Why not breed to other ASB's?

Regardless congrats to original poster on a well done inspection...!

[Spot]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Why does a papered Saddlebred have to be presented at a warmblood inspection? What is wrong with competing as a Saddlebred, breeding as a Saddlebred and continuing to do the breed proud as a SADDLEBRED? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The same reason that a PAPERED Thoroughbred is presented to a Warmblood inspection - to get breed approval for that breed registry.
And not taking away the fact that the animal in question IS a TB, or trying to hide that fact - some people just want different breed approvals for them

"Spot"

[Equibrit]

Spot - that doesn't answer the question for me! Why make that investment? More Kudos could be garnered for the breed by excelling as a Saddlebred. Breed characteristics would be diluted by crossing. It is debatable wether the cross would add to warmblood characteristics. So where is the pay off?

[Happy Bunny]

TBs and, to a lesser extent, Arabs are part of the foundation of Warmbloods. Saddlebreds are not. If one is trying to promote Saddlebred sporthorses, wonderful. They still are not warmbloods. I believe that AWS taking ASBs as registerable undermines the credibility of American Warmblood breeders. That's why I refuse to work with AWS.

I'm not saying Saddlebreds aren't wonderful. I personally don't find them to my taste, so I don't breed or ride them. No matter how hard SOME ASB breeders try to make them, they will never be true warmbloods.

[Galileo1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spot:
The same reason that a PAPERED Thoroughbred is presented to a Warmblood inspection - to get breed approval for that breed registry.
And not taking away the fact that the animal in question IS a TB, or trying to hide that fact - some people just want different breed approvals for them

"Spot" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok - I agree with you Spot in respect to the MARE but the FOAL in this situation was also inspected. As far as I know foals can't be given breeding approval, they have to wait until they are older. If I take a T'Bred mare that is Canadian Warmblood approved and send her to the T'Bred Yavari who is also CWB approved have her bred via live cover and produce a T'Bred that foal is not a CWB, it is a T'bred.

[Lianne]

Guys, these people did not "HAVE to" present their Saddlebred at this inspection. They chose to. Jean explained why (are you completely ignoring her post, Equibrit?). This is not a case of someone wanting WB papers for their Percheron/Hackney foal, okay? Nobody is trying to hide these horses' breeding, got it?

I know that a lot of you have a reeeeally hard time wrapping your minds around this concept, but Saddlebreds ARE being bred both for sport AND for show in the US. Much like TBs are being bred for racing AND for the sporthorse disciplines. Obviously, these breeders are breeding Saddlebreds for sport, and they obviously were bang on about this colt if he got such a good score.
The ASHA does a crappy job of promoting its sporty Saddlebreds (and CERTAINLY doesn't have a structured inspection system in place for them yet), therefore these people chose to bring their sporthorse foal to the AWS to see what the judges would say.

I still fail to see why Equibrit has her panties all in a twist about this... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[HanLady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jean S.:
Well, I was the one who posted that. They were not trying to be warmbloods. Far from it. They are trying to promote Saddlebreds as sporthorses and getting them acknowledged through AWS is one way to go. It was recommended to them by a good freind of theirs who is a USDF certified instructor and riding at Grand Prix. If you knew anything about the history of the Saddlebred, you'd know that they were originally bred and trained to do everything AND with elegance. SportArab, I was a longtime Arab owner and there are a lot of arabs out there that aren't too impressive. The Saddlebred that won at Devon got a score in the high 70's by Hilda Gurney. You should have been impressed. A good horse is a good horse is a good horse, no matter what the breed. Why condemn someone for trying to make a difference in a breed? Thanks Lianne! Jean S. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Saddlebreds as sport horses is one thing, but why would someone take a 100% saddlebred to a AWS inspection?? That doesn't make sense to me. I'm not being prejudice either, I happen to really, REALLY like saddlebreds. I'm not getting as to why a saddlebred was brought to a "warmblood" inspection??

Edited to add: sorry if I missed an answer to my question abut why bring to the AWS inspection, I hadn't read on further. I'm still not understanding it. I feel saddlebreds are way under-rated by warmblood lovers. The hollow backed ones mentioned someone in this thread shouldn't apply to all saddlebreds.. it's the way the are trained for saddleseat, and yes, some breed them for these characteristics. I still feel they make super sport horses, and Ive seen many excell in dressage. The fact that a saddlebred colt won at a AWS inspection, I find impressive, good for you! But seriously.. why present the baby there?? Promote him as a saddlebred and let people see they can be competive agaist warmbloods.

[Jasmine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:

The ASHA does a crappy job of promoting its sporty Saddlebreds (and CERTAINLY doesn't have a structured inspection system in place for them yet), therefore these people chose to bring their sporthorse foal to the AWS to see what the judges would say.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What's wrong with DSHB classes? Or Hunter Breeding classes?

It's great that he got a wonderful score. I'm sure he's a great horse. He's not, however, a warmblood. He shouldn't be registered as one. Since the "W" in AWS stands for Warmblood, the AWS isn't doing themselves any good in regisering an ASB.

[Perfect Pony]

First, big thanks to the person that posted the ASB link, what wonderful horses! If one scrolls through all the "champions" you'll see lots of gorgeous horses that has excelled at the best shows in dressage, eventing, jumpers, it's cool to see.

Second, I may be way off base here, but it is my understanding that the American Warmblood is not trying to be a European Warmblood. As someone pointed out, most of the Euro regitries often admit purebred TB and Arab horses as improvement breeds. Please correct me if I am wrong, but the AMERICAN WB registry admits other American breeds as improvement breeds, such as the ASB. If one looks at it this way then it isn't difficult to understand why an ASB would be presented at the inspection.

It seems some people get wrapped up in what the American WB registry *is not* rather than looking at what it *is*.

[Lianne]

Did it ever occur to you people that they were more interested in the score and the comments than the papers? I mean, that's really the whole point of an inspection, is it not?

Dressage and Hunter breeding classes are other good suggestions, and they may just present the colt there, too! But the fact is, this is what their GP rider friend recommended, so that is what they did, end of story!

And to the person who suggested they "promote him as a Saddlebred": what do you think they were doing by telling the judge he's 100% Saddlebred, if not promoting him as a Saddlebred?? You people just aren't making any sense! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Equibrit]

Liane, I do not have "panties in a wad" nor do I have a breed prejudice. I am merely trying to understand why somebody would go through the inspection process with a Saddlebred, when they would be far better served by promoting their sporthorses within their own registry.

[Jasmine]

If you want a score and opinion, take the horse to a show, not a registry inspection. If you want papers, a score and an opinion, take the horse to a registry inspection.

[sil]

I for one consider the Saddlebred to BE a warmblood. As a breed he is bred for saddle just like any other warmblood breed. Just becuase he is from America and not Europe doesn't disqualify him from being so.

I think it would be a disgrace if the American Warmblood Society rejected the one purebred saddle performance breed it made in the country!

I know plenty will disagree, which is fine, but that's my take.

[Lianne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Equibrit:
Liane, I do not have "panties in a wad" nor do I have a breed prejudice. I am merely trying to understand why somebody would go through the inspection process with a Saddlebred, when they would be far better served by promoting their breed within their own registry. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that's where you couldn't be more wrong. Believe it or not, the breeders of sporty Saddlebreds' biggest enemy are the narrow-minded Saddlebred breeders and ASHA reps who stubbornly believe "Show horse or No horse". They think sporthorse Saddlebreds are culls, rejects. So you are dead wrong, Equibrit, trying to promote a sporthorse Saddlebred within the ASHA is futile and, incredibly, even MORE of an uphill battle than the promotion of Saddlebreds within the Warmblood community. Sad, but true. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Equibrit]

These people seem to be getting it going;
http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/index1.htm
Why do they need the ASHA? All they need to do is organize their own approvals.

[Lianne]

Well, I'm not 100% clear on how it works in the States, but up here "Associations" do not necessarily equal registries, and they do not hold "inspections".

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Equibrit]

I'm sure they can do exactly what they want. I don't think they need Papal approval or anything like that! Think "CAN DO" not can't, won't, shouldn't, couldn't!

[Galileo1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Well, I'm not 100% clear on how it works in the States, but up here "Associations" do not equal registries, and they do not hold "inspections".

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Lianne - the Canadian Sport Horse ASSOCIATION and the Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders ASSOCIATION would be very dismayed to learn this http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Lianne]

Are those not registries, Galileo??

[Equibrit]

Jeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeez

Isn't this semantics?
Now Liane - exactly how would you define and differentiate between Associations and Regsitries?

[Lianne]

Er, um... forgive me, Galileo, I thought the Canadian Warmblood and CSH were official REGISTRIES... Is that not the case?

Semantics? If you say so... Until there are inspections specifically for Saddlebred Sporthorses, people will look to other venues.
Sorry if that offends some of you. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Lianne]

I have a question - is there a "Thoroughbred Sport Horse" registry? I'm just curious...

[Jasmine]

There are no "inspections" for Quarter horses, Arabs, Appaloosas, Paints, pintos, Minis, Belgian Drafts, Percherons, Clydesdales, Morgans, ect. Those people seem quite content to keep showing at breed and open shows. They don't (for the most part) insist on calling their breeds "warmbloods," regardless of how well some individuals of their breed do in sporting classes. Why do Saddlebred sporthorses need to be inspected to have validity? Can't they just go to venues like Devon, and compete against other breeds in the open classes?

[Fairview Horse Center]

You guys are really too much. I especially like the "predjudice" byline http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Sport type saddlebreds are closer in conformation to modern type warmbloods than TBs or Arabs. TBs and Arabs are not warmbloods either. Movement wise, both are designed to cover a lot of gound with low, flat gaits. TB's are often very down in front, low neck set, not what you want in a warmblood for sport.

Europe had access to a large TB and Arab base from which to choose suitable horses, so that is what they used. They didn't have access to a large saddlebred base to pick and choose the ones that would be suitable. Just because Europe was not able to use them, dosen't mean they wouldn't have worked, and possibly better.

And before someone goes and says the Dutch tried it with a driving horse, can we say wrong type for sport?? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

In the late 70's, very few people in this country knew what Dressage was. The PRESIDENT of Virginia DRESSAGE Assn. was going around to hunter shows, doing demo rides during the lunch break trying to increase interest in Dressage. Her name was Nanette Ditterick, and her horse was Dress Boots - an AMERICAN SADDLEBRED! Her gaits blew me away, so light, elastic, and up in front. Mrs. Ditterick said she changed to Saddlebreds because she got tired of getting hurt riding TBs. Dress Boots looked and moved very much like the modern type warmblood of today. Well, then we began to import the Traks, then the Hanoverian thud monsters for dressage like Germany was using. I find it so incredibly funny that today, the ideal type is finally looking and moving just like Dress Boots. I wonder if Germany would have gotten there faster if they had used sport saddlebreds. OH, yeah, since Europe didn't do it, it can't be ok can it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Equibrit]

It does not offend. The fact is that Saddlebred Sporthorses would be better served by organizing their own inspections in order to promote their breed. Those inspections will not become a realty until SADDLEBRED supporters take up the mantle. NOW - do you understand - its not so hard!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

TB sporthorse registry = PHR (Performance Horse Regsitry)
Jockey Club (if you define racing as "sport")

Jasmine; you would not often see the breeds you mention excelling in the Olympic disciplines. The warmblood registries were specifically created to bring about a horse that could perform in those disciplines and as regular riding horses. As horses were used less on the farm after the war there was a need for a more "sporty" type of performance horse. The registries accomplished this and created a huge market for the new sporty model. I might add that the Europeans are continuing to benefit from this development at the cost of American breeders. Is there some rule that says American Saddlebred breeders cannot do this?

[Galileo1998]

Er..um..Lianne, go back and READ your post. The one in which you said that up here in CanadaAssociations DO NOT hold inspections and do not equal registries. Then look at the names of the Canadain Sport Horse Association (which DOES register horses and DOES hold inspections) and the Canadian Warmblood Horse Breeders Association (which DOES register horses and DOES hold inspections).

[Jasmine]

Exactly, Equibrit. I don't have anything against Saddlebreds. I enjoy watching them. They are not warmbloods. If AWS wants to accept them, fine. But AWS will loose the respect of most warmblood breeders and other warmblood registries.

I know there are ASBs that do well in Dressage. There is a total mutt gelding I know that is doing fantastic in green hunters right now, and it's quite probable that he's got some ASB blood. It's great to see new breeds in every sport. Promote them as Saddlebreds, not warmbloods. Be true to the breed, don't try to make them something they are not.

[Lianne]

I edited my post, Galileo. The Associations you used as examples are registries, the American Saddlebred Sporthorse Association is NOT. That was my point, I should've made it clearer, although I have a feeling you knew exactly what I was getting at.

So, if I understand you correctly, the Performance Horse Registry is for TB's? Obviously I knew about the Jockey Club, that's not what I was asking.


Once again, Fairview Horse Centre has made excellent, relevant points. Please take them into consideration.

[Galileo1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
I edited my post, Galileo. The Associations you used as examples are registries, the American Saddlebred Sporthorse Association is NOT. That was my point, I should've made it clearer, although I have a feeling you knew exactly what I was getting at.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trust me Lianne I had no idea what you were getting at, I just know that up here in Canada we DO have Associations that both inspect and register horses.

[Jasmine]

Equibrit, you're right, the breeds I mention don't often excell in the Olympics. They aren't built for most of the Olympic sports. There's no reason ASBs shouldn't have inspections, of their own. As a matter of fact, that's what TASHR was founded to do. I'm sure the TASHR founders would appreciate the support of Saddlebred Sporthorse breeders much more than most of the "warmblood" registries. There they are promoted as Saddlebreds, not warmbloods. What's wrong with that?

[Castlegate]

Allright....so here is my final thought re-worded so that maybe I will get a logical explanation...

I LIKE Standardbreds....and I agree that they are a good influence in many ways...so

why would it not make more sense to revise the Standardbred Breed Standard to what sport horse shoppers are looking for today and try to improve upon the breed as its OWN breed? Why does the Standardbred need "acceptance" from an ANY registry to be validated or worth more to a sport horse enthusiast? Doesn't it make more sense to try and keep the standardbred pure and host its own inspections etc. I know I will open up a can of worms here but I would probably be more likely to buy a Standardbred than I would a horse registered with the AWS or AWR.....only because I LIKE purebred horses.....although my Oldenburg is a "mutt" by definition and I LOVE her...I prefer having a 100% breed...

Just my two cents worth.

[Equibrit]

Jasmine -DUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUH!


Liane,
There is no reason on this good earth why the TASHR or anybody else cannot be a registry also!

[trailblazer]

Maybe the American Warmblood could be improved by using American breeds? If they don't have anything to offer, then they won't pass the inspection. The fact that the horse scored 87.5 and was 1st out of 25 indicates that he is what the AWS is looking for.

If you don't think American breeds can improve your horses, don't breed to them! But remember that TBs are not WBs. Yet they are "diluting" the WB as we speak. The three Oldenburgs at my barn are DEAD RINGERS for TBs! They have brands on their butts, so I know that the Oldenburg registry approved them. One is supposedly a DWB/TB cross. I chuckled at that. As far as I'm concerned, he's a TB... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

My point is that if the American Warmblood registries are really concerned about breeding and promoting sport horses, then they will continually look for means to improve their stock. If you don't like what they choose, there is nothing wrong with that. That's why there are so many other registries to choose from!

[Equibrit]

Having a Saddlebred approved in to AWS has not been of service to either the registry or the horses concerned. I doubt that breeders in the AWS will be clamouring to breed to Saddlebreds. The AWS has lost credibility as a serious breeders regsitry; and the saddlebreds would be better off promoting their breed in their own registry. How does this help anybody?

[Draygonfyne]

Castlegate...they're talking Saddlebreds, not Standardreds...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[SoNotaDQ]

To me, this is a *nice* sporthorse type. http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/gallery/champions/infuriating.htm

I don't think *very many* saddlebreds are suitable for sport. But then, many are not ridden for sport or never really seen. I KNOW they are out there, it is just finding them.

This mare did quite well at Devon 2001
http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/gallery/champions/esperanza.htm I doubt I would kick her out of my barn

Then here is borealis, who I find quite beautiful: http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/gallery/champions/borealis.htm

I rode a Saddlebred who was probably the WORST conformed horse to any standard. He had more heart, more soul, more try than any horse I have ever ridden. He taught me TONS. My trainer HATED that horse to begin with. By the time he was sold, she was very sad to see him go. He had become one of her best lesson horses. Very very cool horse. I will always keep a soft spot for Saddlebreds.

Even on that site, you see a rider going over fences and honestly, most of my horses would stop if I rode like that. The horse the person is riding is just doing their job and taking care of business. Style for that person needs to come secondary to honest. Pat that horse on the neck!

Now, this is an example of a fine jumper. Probably the best I have ever seen a saddlebred do: http://www.americansaddlebredsporthorse.com/gallery/champions/sauce%20n%20spirit.htm Look at the knees on that horse!

[siegi b.]

It becomes obvious after reading this and previous threads that any type of reasonable discussion about ASB's is impossible because the few proponents of this breed that post here have somewhat fanatic tendencies and/or huge chips on their shoulders. Too bad, because there are in fact some very nice American Saddlebred horses and this type of "promotion" doesn't foster interest but rather drives interested parties away.

[trailblazer]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Equibrit:
Having a Saddlebred approved in to AWS has not been of service to either the registry or the horses concerned. I doubt that breeders in the AWS will be clamouring to breed to Saddlebreds. The AWS has lost credibility as a serious breeders regsitry; and the saddlebreds would be better off promoting their breed in their own registry. How does this help anybody? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So you know what is best for the AWS better than the AWS itself does? okay. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Maybe you should write them a letter or something... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Also, I think that Saddlebred breeders don't need our help to decide what they are better off doing. Don't you think they can figure that out for themselves?

Personally, I think the AWS would lose more credibility by failing to take advantage of the indigenous horses of this country. People are bound to disagree, but that is why there are other registries out there. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Equibrit]

So you know what is best for the AWS better than the AWS itself does? okay. Maybe you should write them a letter or something... Also, I think that Saddlebred breeders don't need our help to decide what they are better off doing. Don't you think they can figure that out for themselves?



OBVIOUSLY NOT!


I don't think *very many* saddlebreds are suitable for sport. But then, many are not ridden for sport or never really seen. I KNOW they are out there, it is just finding them.


If they had their own registry the picture would probably be very different!

[Lianne]

OH MY GOD!! I can't believe you guys brought up TASHR!! Do you even REMEMBER what the general reaction was when someone started a thread about that registry last fall?? Need I post a LINK to that trainwreck of a thread?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

You're right. This IS what TASHR is trying to do. And a lot of people took GREAT pleasure in tearing the registry's goals and ambitions to shreds. I remember it vividly. Yes, some people took exception to the mention of the word "warmblood" on their website, but a LOT of other people were criticizing EVERYTHING else about it.

[Jasmine]

Lianne, you're the one who said there were no other options for inspections for Saddlebreds. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif TASHR is an option. What the rest of us think of TASHR is beside the point.

[Lianne]

I did not say that, Jasmine, I said their own breed registry (ASHA) is not a good option.

Incidentally, this is first year TASHR is holding inspections. So yes, now that is an option. I hope Starbuck's owners DO decide to present him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Jasmine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Guys, these people did not "HAVE to" present their Saddlebred at this inspection. They chose to.

The ASHA does a crappy job of promoting its sporty Saddlebreds (and CERTAINLY doesn't have a structured inspection system in place for them yet), therefore these people chose to bring their sporthorse foal to the AWS to see what the judges would say.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They went to AWS instead of TASHR. Why take the horse to a "warmblood" registry rather than a "Saddlebred Sporthorse" registry?

[Lianne]

Perhaps these people didn't even know about TASHR. It's only been around for a couple of years, it's not exactly unfathomable that these people had never heard of it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I might also add, that there are even people within the American SB Sporthorse Association that aren't exactly "thrilled" with TASHR's existence. Why? Because they believe the Saddlebred is perfect the way it is and should not be crossed with other breeds. *sigh*

It's impossible to please everyone, unfortunately.

[Castlegate]

oops...meant saddlebreds...typed standardbreds...my question is still the same...

BTW: Has anyone seen the saddlebred FireDance (?) at Flying W farms....hmmmmm....VERY VERY nice!

[nhwr]

IMO it is possible for individual saddlebreds (or any breed of horse) be be exceptional sporthorses. However, they are not (nor should they be considered, IMO) warmbloods. I'll second the opinion that this is a problem I have with current American warmblood registries (as I understand them). They will allow anything that is a nice horse into their breeding books. While this may be a way to breed sporthorses, they aren't warmbloods.

[CentralCoast]

Did some of you even read FHC's post? It makes alot of sense. If the horse is conformed like a WB, moves like a WB, has rideability like a WB and would throw those characteristics, why not let it in a warmblood registry? I couldn't care less what the bloodlines are, and I'll bet most riders and trainers don't either. The AWS and AWR are approving quality animals of ANY breed and trash talk like some of you are up to here reflects poorly on only you, not the AWS or AWR. Let horses of all breeds be judged on their merits alone and not whether their ancestors originated from Europe.

[Lianne]

I had asked everyone to read and acknowledge FHC's post. Thanks for the reminder, Central.

Let it be reiterated that this foal was NOT presented for breeding anyway, so whether you guys think he will "throw his characteristics" or not is a moot point.

[Jasmine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CentralCoast:
If the horse is conformed like a WB, moves like a WB, has rideability like a WB and would throw those characteristics, why not let it in a warmblood registry? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a Breeding Stock Paint that is conformed like a Quarter horse, moves like a QH and rides like a QH. I have APHA papers on her, but should I ask the AQHA to register her as well? They would laugh in my face. Even though 90% of her pedigree is QH!

[Lianne]

Well, guess what Jasmine, I think that's stupid! I think they should be glad to have her! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Just like when a quality Thoroughbred is aproved into a Warmblood registry (for breeding!!) because he looks, moves and rides like a Warmblood. Same principle!

[trailblazer]

Jasmine, the QH registry is closed (except to TBs). WB registries (with the exception of Traks) are open. Big difference! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[CentralCoast]

Jasmine, the AQHA registry is limited to animals whose parents are either AQHA or TB by pedigree alone. But most of the European verbands do not work that way. I refer again to what others said about the heavy old style WB's that do not get approved by the more modern-type leaning judges of today; who knows what the future holds? If the ASB sporthorses do well in the future, and some open minded people decide to let them into the European verbands... will they then become acceptable to you and others? Don't denigrate new ideas or innovative experiments before you know whether or not they have merit. I think that's all the ASB supporters are asking.

[Jasmine]

The European registries are not open to every breed. They will put quality mares into the pre-mare books for breeding, and register the babies. Some even have secondary stud books for stallions of other breeds. That's not the same as registering a horse with full papers that has parents that are not WB.

I just don't see a reason WHY the Saddlebred Sprothorse breeders are trying to promote their horses as warmbloods. They should be proud of the breed they have. I'm sure proud to own an APHA, even though she doesn't have a spot!

[Fairview Horse Center]

Almost all European registries have included horses of unknown pedigree in their lower books at times over the years. That said, I would love to see the AWS be called Sporthorse, but it is not my registry, and I am not going to get hung up on a word. They are doing a lot to educate small breeders in this country, and offer a lot of support for a very reasonable fee. I would love to see them use my designed brand too http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif but that's not happenin either. The AWS only includes other breeds into their lower book. I PREFER the word Sporthorse, but that is me, I just don't think anything bloody is attractive &lt;yuck&gt; http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[nhwr]

So if I have a warmblood who looks like a quarter horse, I should be able to register it as a quarter horse? Or if I have a modern warmblood that looks like a TB, the Jockey Club should give me papers and let me race it? Please! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

The problem here is that many people think that the term warmblood is synonymous with nice sporthorse. I can assure this is not always the case. If you have a nice saddlebred, why not promote it as a saddlebred? What would be wrong with that?

[Tammyl0013]

Could someone tell me what the exact definition of a warmblood is?

Tammy

[Draygonfyne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tammyl0013:
Could someone tell me what the exact definition of a warmblood is?

Tammy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh Tammy...you really opened up a can o'worms with that question! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Welcome to the board though......sit back and enjoy the ride!

[jumper11]

Basically anyone can breed for a warmblood, or sporthorse (as this thread demonstrates). If you have a mare living in your backyard and you don't feel like riding her much for the next year breed her, regardless of what breed she is, whether or not she is sound/lame etc... Preferably breed her to your neighbor's horse who is, what they refer to be a "warmblood" and you have what our American registeries refer to as an american warmblood.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif I'm kidding by the way people, but flame me if you wish.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Castlegate]

LOL jumper! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I know someone who took a draft cross...mind you this was more draft than ANYTHING....and he is now an "American" Warmblood. So, as I look at him (nice horse by the way..but super big, drafty and clunky) and then I look at the TB cross that has NONE of the same characteristics but is branded by the same registry, I wonder how some registries decide who to let into their club and who they don't. Shouldn't their be similarities of horses within one registry? How else can you decide who to accept if there is no standard by which to measure?

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tammyl0013:
Could someone tell me what the exact definition of a warmblood is?

Tammy <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tammy, you took the words right out of my mouth!

Warmblood - noun 1.) generic term coined by Europeans to confuse and incite American breeders, riders and trainers. 2.) term of convienience for arguements or rationalizations. 3.) Predjudial term used to justify poor behavior, sic. "Well you know he was (or was not) a warmblood.

NOTE: Not to be confused with Sporthorse, although an equally confusing and inflamatory term coined by Americans to confuse and incite European breeders, riders and trainers.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

SCFarm

[Horsecrazy27]

OH MY GOSH, Sportarab???????????

Is this the same person who was put off about saying that some arabians don't make the best sport horses?????? GEEZ.....I'm a bit surprised. And now offended a bit.

Tanya

[jumper11]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Castlegate:
LOL jumper! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I know someone who took a draft cross...mind you this was more draft than ANYTHING....and he is now an "American" Warmblood. So, as I look at him (nice horse by the way..but super big, drafty and clunky) and then I look at the TB cross that has NONE of the same characteristics but is branded by the same registry, I wonder how some registries decide who to let into their club and who they don't. Shouldn't their be similarities of horses within one registry? How else can you decide who to accept if there is no standard by which to measure? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey I'm all for big slow, semi-athletic horses that are either free or very cheap Percheron/Draft crosses... However

1) I would never breed for this horse specifically
2) I would not try to convince people that this horse is a warmblood.
3) I would adopt a PMU baby or some such horse and never ever breed it....

Just my four cents on the Saddlebred issue... I'm glad to see they are breeding them to be more athletic with better conformation. I personally don't like the old typical high neck, high knees, inverted back crap that I've seen in the past... But sporthorses??? Really? ok prove it, and I'm a believer. The fact that they scored such and such at Devon doesn't really prove to me that they are all around top competitors. Not trying to be negative, I really want to be proved wrong on this topic. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[HanLady]

I've read a lot of good points made here, and if someone just wanted to "prove" their horse to others, fine.. but still no need to bring a purebred saddlebred to a warmblood inspection.. I don't get it! and remember, I'm one who earlier said I LOVE saddlebreds.. no need to promote him with a bunch of warmbloods, he is not that.

[SportArab]

Tanya... please pay attention to what I have said...

I said I didn't like what I saw at Devon 2001 in the Saddlebred class. I also said I don't understand why anyone would take a purebred anything to get it registered with one of the American Warmblood groups... It's already a purebred.

I CAN understand getting animals approved for breeding purposes.

I did not say I hate all saddlebreds and that saddlebreds can't be sporthorses (in my opinion they aren't "warmbloods," sporthorses, maybe, but not warmbloods.)

I have met a couple of Saddlebreds over the years that I liked (Winter Sultan comes to mind).. but horses bred for the five gaited classes will, for the most part, not have the conformation to be a high quality sporthorse.

My understanding - and believe me, I'm no expert on Saddlebreds - is that most breeders were aiming to produce the horses that would shine in the gaited arena..

Soooo .. I personally don't see any contradiction between what I have said about Saddlebreds in the warmblood context and Arabians. I don't know any Arabian breeders who want to have their horses registered as warmbloods - they aren't. They're hot bloods.

[Spectrum]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
And a reminder to Spectrum: the info on the horse's pedigree as well as contact info for the owner would have been submitted and kept by the show manager/secretary, not the judge. Unless things are done differently at AWS/AWR inspections, the judges should only have their judge card in front of them, not the pedigree info on each and every horse entered. That would be a LOT of paperwork to carry around while they're judging in the ring, they'd look pretty stupid with a stack of photocopied pedigrees in their arms, don't you think? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Where exactly did I mention anything about showing in my post? People can do whatever they want in the show ring, I could care less.

But I DO have a problem with a " warmblood registry" that is "registering" saddlebred foals as warmbloods. Correct me if I'm wrong here- they were presenting a foal for registration, were they not? And if not, what the heck was the purpose of having the foal inspected?

I have an even bigger problem with the fact that they actually went through the entire inspection process BEFORE asking for the pedigree of the mare and foal in question.

Every warmblood inspection I've ever attended has involved a paperwork session prior to the phsyical inspection where the registry's representative examined the pedigree and registration papers of the mares being inspected, as well as the breeding certificates of the foals being presented for registration.

It makes no sense to me that they are inspecting and registering horses they haven't even seen the pedigree on until after the horse is inspected. If they were, the judge certainly wouldn't have needed to ask about the foal's pedigree.

As far as saddlebreds are concerned, they are wonderful horses with many talents. But like many have pointed out before me, they are simply not warmbloods. So they don't belong in warmblood registries. I don't think that is such a hard concept to understand.

Spectrum.

[ASB Stars]

I guess my simple question is this...

The ONLY true "hot bloods" are Arabians and Thoroughbreds

The ONLY true "cold bloods" are the draft breeds...

Which begs the question...what is everything else that IS NOT the above ? There are "warmbloods" with a very high predominance of Thoroughbred blood, which is actually the background of the American Saddlebred...so, if you approve a Thoroughobred in to a warmblood registry, is he/she no longer a Thoroughbred ?

Please TRY to discuss this in a fashion which resembles reasonable discourse, friends ! It was NOT meant to offend, but to generate thoughtful discussion !

Julie

[nhwr]

TB and arabs are sometimes approved to breed by warmblood registries. When this happens, they are not considered warmbloods. Their breed doesn't change just because they are approved for breeding http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[A. Roose]

On second thought, maybe this isn't the best place to leave lurkerdom to make my first post, LOL!

I happen to really like Saddlebreds -- in fact, one of my most fun junior jumpers was one -- but they are not, no matter what registry one presents one to, a warmblood.

Unfortunately here in the good ol' USofA, we've tended to jump on the "warmblood" bandwagon without bothering to learn the basics. We see the high prices these horses get and the dollar signs dance in our eyes.

Hence, Saddlebred "warmbloods." Texas "warmbloods," which everyone else calls Quarter Horses. Even the gal not far from me proudly rides her "American Warmblood" -- a Standardbred/Clyde cross. Now, I don't know if he is indeed registered with the AWR, but she calls him an American Warmblood, so to her I guess he is.

Call them "sporthorses," as a couple of other people have said -- just as I would suggest calling Arabs and Paints and Morgans and what-have-yous that compete in the hunter seat/dressage/eventing world. But, please: They ain't warmbloods.

Now, back I go to lurkerdom. It's much kinder there.

[sil]

I can only speak for locally, people working and competing like you and me. Out of a population of about 20 Saddlebreds in our state, one was FEI dressage and winning, another competes at C grade and has beaten some big names both here and overseas, and provided her owner rides again after her pregnancy they will go A grade no problem. The rest are low to middling grades having fun with their owners.

[showjumpers66]

I agree that this is a terrible example, Lianne. Borealis score placed him almost dead last.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
yes, they have, and here's an example:
http://www.horsesdaily.com/news/scoresource/2003/dressage/03dev/breed/4_2ycg.html

Borealis showed in the Open 2 year old colts division against well-bred WBs and WBx and received a very respectable score. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I'm surprised that you, SportArab, as a breeder of Arab sporthorses, would have such a snide and close-minded attitude. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[showjumpers66]

But, the scores appear to be consistently high in that class. I have seen classes with consistently low scores. It seems to vary more with how the judges are scoring than with the actual quality of the horses.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
I was looking at his SCORE, siegi. And yes, I consider his score to be perfectly respectable. He also beat out an NAWPN colt, and a SWB by L.A. Baltic Sundance, who I'm sure is a lovely colt, are you saying that their scores are even more "dismissable"?

Funny, I'd be willing to bet that if the owners of those two colts had posted their results proudly on this board, everyone would've patted them on their backs and said a hearty congratulations....

The hypocrisy on this board is unREAL. Might I remind you guys that this is a SPORT HORSE BREEDING FORUM, not a WARMBLOOD breeding forum? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Does it feel good to be so narrow-minded and biased, siegi? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[showjumpers66]

Lianne, you would gain more followers by leading rather than attacking.

I am not anti- any breed, but I believe that certain types have characteristics that allow them to be naturally talented. Horses of any breed can be successful jumpers, but the Holsteiner, as a example, typically has natural jumping talent. Just like the Doc Bar's and Poco Bueno's are reining and cutting horses and Zippo Pine Bar's are western pleasure horses. Thus, if I am going to breed horses that have jumping potential, I am going to go with what is proven.

Now, if the Saddlebred can show me that they can consistently perform in the jumper ring, then they might have a place in my breeding program. I am not interest in starting a new trend, but will stick with the tried and true.

For those die hard Saddlebred fans ... push to evolve your breed and preserve it whole. If you cross breed, you will lose the traits that make the Saddlebred a Saddlebred.

[sil]

I think the most important part of the equation here for the Saddlebred is credibility.

Like it or not, the Saddlebred due to its huge success and breeding (and monetary) focus as a show horse has been discounted as a performance horse in other disciplines.

The Saddlebred Association itself, from what I have seen, puts a token effort and token money into the Sports side of the registry. Most Sporthorse Saddlebred breeders are out on their own - and in fact this is what resulted in the ASSHA!

The ASSHA is very new Association and does not register horses, they support the owners and promote the Saddlebred as a sports horse.

Becuase they do not register horses, they do not have inspections. I think inspections for Saddlebred Sporthorses is a FANTASTIC idea whoever mentioned it - I am sure it will happen if (once) the ASSHA register horses.

For me the obvious place to look for inspections if I had a Saddlebred suitable for performance work, is with a place just like the AWS. Since there is no inspection for the ASHA or ASSHA, the warmblood inspections are a place to compare to what Saddlebred Sporthorse breeders would ideally like to get to.

That doesn't mean Saddlebred Sporthorse breeders are trying to change the Saddlebred type, but it DOES mean those breeders are trying to analyze what they have and have it professionally compared to the current successful performance horses on the market - the warmblood breeds.

*edit Sorry I have TASHA and ASSHA confused. The Americana registry (TASHA) I actually meant the American Saddlebred Sporthorse Association(ASSHA). 'pologies to anyone I have got mixed up!

[Lianne]

showjumper66 - I'm not going to address most of your posts because I've seen way too many of your posts and frankly, it's clear to me that you have ANYthing but an open mind. That's fine, you can't win 'em all. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Here is someone who was proudly using Paint mares in their sporthorse breeding program, from mostly QH, TB and Paint lines, and who now says they "stick with the tried and true". That's funny, I didn't know Paints and QH's had a long history of being bred for the sporthorse disciplines... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You had those mares in your breeding program, showjumper66, because they were obviously very nice INDIVIDUALS and had lovely conformation and movement.
But you were definitely NOT sticking with the "tried and true". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Basically, there are two camps on this thread: one that believes no other breed belongs at a Warmblood inspection other than a Warmblood (oh, wait. and Thoroughbreds and Arabs...), and those who believe hey, if the AWS allows it, why not bring a nice Saddlebred colt and see what the judges think of him.

We will just have to agree to disagree, I guess. Live and let live, perhaps?

[Lianne]

Oh, and showjumper66, I found a picture of L.A. Baltic Titan, who placed under Borealis at that show - you should look it up. GORGEOUS colt. Such a shame you think his score and placing are also shameful. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

And incidentally, since you heartily agree that Bo's placing was so dismissable, how many horses have you brought to Devon, showjumper66?

[Equibrit]

Lianne
Petty! Petty! Petty!

[Lianne]

Which part? Bringing up the Paint mares? PLEASE! If somebody makes a statement like that, you're darn right I'm going to call them on it!

Nobody on this board would DARE criticise another Warmblood breeder's results at Devon, whether they're at the back of the pack or not, so why denigrate Bo's score or his placing?
Does it make you feel good about yourselves? Are you trying to imply that if he can't come in the top ten, he shouldn't be showing at all?

[nhwr]

Lianne,

I think you are missing something huge here. Some arabs and TBs are approved for breeding in WB registries because they have a history with warmbloods. They have always been used to a greater or lesser extent. Sires have specific requirements they must meet in sport. Mares are inspected and usually (though not always) not placed in the main studbook. This means their offspring can not become liscensed as a breeding stallion and fillies can usually only be put into one book higher than their dam. In both cases, the horse is presented as a mature adult and is not considered a warmblood.

Presenting a foal for inspection is entirely different. When this is done, the purpose obviously isn't to get breeding approval on something this young. The goal is to have the horse registered as a warmblood, which it certainly isn't. This would never happen in most registries because the parents of both offspring must have been inspected and approved for breeding.

Can one use a saddlebred in sport horse breeding? Sure, if they are a good sport horse, why not? Is the offspring a warmblood? Nope. Do that mean it is not a good sport horse? Nope. The thing that always strikes me about these flame wars is that everyone call us warmblood "purists" snobs. But what about those who think so little of a non-warmblood sporthorse that they want to pass it off as something it isn't? That seems pretty snobby to me and it can prevent educating the public about the abilities and character of the horses true breeding. Why should a nice saddlebred wind behind a warmblood reputation?

[siegi b.]

I didn't respond to Lianne's post earlier because it seemed silly to even acknowledge it. When she says that the folks on this board are hypocritical and bases that on the ASSUMPTION that we would applaud the scores of the last two colts in that Devon class, there's really not much more that can be said.

[Lianne]

nhwr - your comments have already been addressed time and time again on this thread, but like many others, you are choosing to ignore the relevant comments.

If you honestly think these owners are now clutching their "AWS papers" with glee and that they intend to tell everyone that he is an American Warmblood, and show him as one, you're off your rocker. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Jean already posted waaaaay at the beginning of this thread explaining what happened. A GP rider friend of the owner saw this colt, probably thought "wow, nice boy", and suggested the AWS inspection. Had they suggested Devon or some other line show, they probably would've gone there instead. But they didn't.

Sil also has given a good explanation as to why this was done:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Since there is no inspection for the ASHA or ASSHA, the warmblood inspections are a place to compare to what Saddlebred Sporthorse breeders would ideally like to get to.

That doesn't mean Saddlebred Sporthorse breeders are trying to change the Saddlebred type, but it DOES mean those breeders are trying to analyze what they have and have it professionally compared to the current successful performance horses on the market - the warmblood breeds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Here is the answer to the persistent "why why why" everyone is asking. That's why.
Now, whether you STILL think it shouldn't have happened is your business. Like I said, we will agree to disagree.
Others on this thread have said they don't see the big deal, and were happy for these people.
Others are miffed. So be it.

[Galileo1998]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
Which part? Bringing up the Paint mares? PLEASE! If somebody makes a statement like that, you're darn right I'm going to call them on it!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You didn't much like it when I called you on your statement that Associations up here in Canada don't inspect and register horses. Pretty interesting that you know think it's a good idea to "call people on it" when you don't like a statement somebody has made.

I have to say Lianne you are doing the Saddlebred horses that are used for sport no favours at all with this post, OR the previous one on TASHR. BTW - are you planning on supporting TASHR and registering your baby from your Saddlebred mare with them?

[Lianne]

Yes, I am actually, Galileo, I just recently sent them an e-mail asking if they were set up to accept credit cards. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And I edited my post after yours, Galileo, mine wasn't clear, I was trying to point out that an Association doesn't necessarily equal a registry. I realize that the CSHA and CWHBA have "Association" in their title but I had always thought of them as registries, which is why I made the boo-boo. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
And yes, I got defensive because it felt like you were poking fun at me, which not many people appreciate. If that was not your intention, great, I apologize!

[Horsecrazy27]

SportArab

This is the post I was talking about:

"Look.. I don't have a problem with saddlebreds, per se. But what I saw in the saddlebred class in 2001 was NOT impressive. Very very hyper horses with hollow backs and hind ends trailing.

And what is being chosen in the open class is the horse/foal that appears to be best suited to do dressage... not the horse that looks the most like a warmblood... Warmbloods tend to win because they been bred for the characteristics that are desireable in the sport diciplines for many years."

I just found it funny that you were quick to point out flaws and make a generalization, when you snapped at me for what appeared to be a blanket statement.....just found it halarious.


Tanya

[siegi b.]

.... and didn't SIL mention that the biggest issue for Saddlebreds was CREDIBILITY?

Well, with people like Lianne shrieking the loudest, what are your bets on that ever happening?

[fleur]

lianne, much like show horse saddlebreds, paints and QHs that were bred to be western or halter horses aren't going to be well-conformed to do the sporthorse divisions.

however, there have been many, many of these breeds to excel at all levels of sporthorse disciplines as well. more than there have been saddlebreds, i am guessing. so yes, i think they are "tried and true" provided they have sporthorse rather than halter conformation. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Lianne]

What, siegi, you think you can make statements like this <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Borealis came in 17th out of 21 and you call that respectable? I think it falls under "also ran"..... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> and you think I'm just going to ignore it and say "you're right, my bad, those pathetic results should never be mentioned again"?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Those kind of statements are only going to get people's back up. It was rude, spiteful and unnecessary.

And I guess I was wrong about you, siegi. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> the ASSUMPTION that we would applaud the scores of the last two colts in that Devon class <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So I guess that means you would've torn down the owners of those other two colts and their results, had they posted them on here?

[nhwr]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you honestly think these owners are now clutching their "AWS papers" with glee and that they intend to tell everyone that he is an American Warmblood, and show him as one, you're off your rocker. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, now I understand http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The owners couldn't tell for themselves whether it was a nice foal, so they spent the money, went to the time and trouble to take the foal to an inspection of an organization whose opinion they don't respect! If they just want to evaluate the foal, breed shows are a lot less expensive, held in more location and with more frequency.

[Lianne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fleur:
however, there have been many, many of these breeds to excel at all levels of sporthorse disciplines as well. more than there have been saddlebreds, i am guessing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh* it's kinda hard for me to argue with "guessing".

[siegi b.]

Lianne - I think I figured it out.....

I think Borealis is a wonderful horse because he participated in Dressage at Devon. And I also think that all Saddlebreds should be called warmbloods because they are wonderful horses.

Are you happy now?

[Lianne]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> If you honestly think these owners are now clutching their "AWS papers" with glee and that they intend to tell everyone that he is an American Warmblood, and show him as one, you're off your rocker. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, now I understand http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Theowners couldn't tell for themselves whether it was a nice foal, so they spent the money, went to the time and trouble to take the foal to an inspection of an organization whose opinion they don't respect! If they just want to evaluate the foal, breed shows are a lot less expensive. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey, I'm not going to argue with that! I agree that going to a breed show would've been an excellent idea! But these are probably Saddlebred people who are just starting to get their feet wet in the "sport" world, and simply went with the recommendation of someone they trust.

[Equibrit]

THIS IS STILL REEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEALLY SILLY!
What would happen if a BNT told them to take the horse to Keeneland?

[fleur]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lianne:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by fleur:
however, there have been many, many of these breeds to excel at all levels of sporthorse disciplines as well. more than there have been saddlebreds, i am guessing. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*sigh* it's kinda hard for me to argue with "guessing". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

um well, you could prove me wrong with statistics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif fact of the matter is that if you go to a H/J show or an event, you will see way more QHs and paints than saddlebreds.

[Fairview Horse Center]

You guys are really a laugh a minute. Someone comes on here to do a "brag" about their youngster, like millions of others have. Do we hear, Congrats? Nope http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Oldenburgs have approved Draft crosses and Quarterhorses. Are their offspring registered and branded Oldenburgs - YEP. Does anyone trash them or the registry? - NOPE. It is posted that a saddlebred can be a nice horse, but is their offspring warmblood? someone answers NOPE - HUH? and then trashes the registry http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

For those of you that couldn't acutally read my other post, here it is again. Not a single person wants to comment on that because you can't say anything. Hey, just ignor it and it didn't happen.

Sport type saddlebreds are closer in conformation to modern type warmbloods than TBs or Arabs. TBs and Arabs are not warmbloods either. Movement wise, both are designed to cover a lot of gound with low, flat gaits. TB's are often very down in front, low neck set, not what you want in a warmblood for sport.

Europe had access to a large TB and Arab base from which to choose suitable horses, so that is what they used. They didn't have access to a large saddlebred base to pick and choose the ones that would be suitable. Just because Europe was not able to use them, dosen't mean they wouldn't have worked, and possibly better.

And before someone goes and says the Dutch tried it with a driving horse, can we say wrong type for sport??

In the late 70's, very few people in this country knew what Dressage was. The PRESIDENT of Virginia DRESSAGE Assn. was going around to hunter shows, doing demo rides during the lunch break trying to increase interest in Dressage. Her name was Nanette Ditterick, and her horse was Dress Boots - an AMERICAN SADDLEBRED! Her gaits blew me away, so light, elastic, and up in front. Mrs. Ditterick said she changed to Saddlebreds because she got tired of getting hurt riding TBs. Dress Boots looked and moved very much like the modern type warmblood of today. Well, then we began to import the Traks, then the Hanoverian thud monsters for dressage like Germany was using. I find it so incredibly funny that today, the ideal type is finally looking and moving just like Dress Boots. I wonder if Germany would have gotten there faster if they had used sport saddlebreds. OH, yeah, since Europe didn't do it, it can't be ok can it.

I personally don't use Saddlebreds, don't know why I am commenting other than I just can't stand to see blatent hurtful ignorance and meanness and not comment.

[Lianne]

FHC - actually, what's even worse is that this didn't even start with the ASB owner bragging. It started with someone QUOTING a "news blurb" from the American Saddlebred Sporthorse Association website and using the thread title "does anyone else think this is silly".
I could ALMOST understand if it had been a brag, but it wasn't even. Somebody saw the story on the ASSHA website and decided to post it here in the hopes that everyone would agree that it was "silly".

Sad sad sad... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

I think it did start as a brag, but that is ok - everyone should be proud of their accomplishments. Breeding is tough enough. The original post is actually on the UDBB, and copied from there to continue the thread here.

[Fairview Horse Center]

http://www.ultimatedressage.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=41291

[Equibrit]

I still hold the view that it is silly. Just makes people look like mugs! (for no apparent reason)

[Lianne]

wow, didn't even know about the Ultimate Dressage thread, sorry FHC. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

Again, the AWS is a performance registry to promote the International Sport Disciplines. Their inspections are held in a seminar type forum. They will inspect any breed for educational purposes to promote breeding the types of conformation and gaits that will perform in those disciplines. They will "RECORD" (like the USEF, USDF, etc) a horse registered in another breed for award purposes. I DO think the more appropriate name would have been "Sporthorse" rather than "Warmblood", but HEY, it is not MY registry. I didn't start it over 20 years ago (where were you and what were you breeding then?) Back then, there were not a whole lot of warmbloods in this country, and even fewer organized registries promoting them.

BTW, last time I entered a Dressage Sporthorse show, it was MUCH more expensive and farther that an AWS Inspection. The comments at an AWS inspection are MUCH more extensive than any other inspection. I know that Nikki is a USEF LICENSED SPORTHORSE JUDGE. So we shouldn't respect the opinion of someone the USEF says is credible? Rachel is very knowledgeable, has been to Germany times to learn, and has produced some top sporthorses. Should we not respect her opinion either?

[equestrielle]

I do understand why someone would want to take a rather unknown or even perhaps negatively regarded breed for sport and take them to a sporthorse venue for publicity purposes.

There is a cache about the word "warmblood" and it does seem to me that it's a good marketing tool as an affirmation of the sporthorse type of the saddlebred individuals that were shown there. In other words, if they were compared with warmbloods and came out favorably, then they obviously have some potential as sporthorses.

I like Saddlebreds, but about three years ago I went shopping at some breeders in my local area (the Midwest) to see if I could find a sporthorse type for breeding or competition (I was willing to try) and there were not any to be found that I liked for what I wanted. And most SB breeders don't know what you are talking about with sporthorses anyway, nor do they care! And some of the objections to their typical breeding/type are correct: the show horse type, which breeders are producing for the SB market, are high kneed, long backed, and have a level or tilted pelvis structure. Those horses sell for big dollars in the SB market, why shouldn't they breed for them? So, given the fact that like other breeds used for other disciplines there aren't many individuals at the present time that are suitable for selling to the sport market, ASB sporthorse breeders do need some kind of public venue to advertise their horses, and I suppose taking them to an AWS inspection does give them that exposure.

I also like sport Arabians a lot too, and am involved with the Shagyas, and there are plenty of Arabians that sadly aren't sporthorses either. But many are, and the Arab people have worked hard to get sporthorse classes in the shows and to get their stallions approved in other warmblood registries.

This got long, but I think pretty is as pretty does, and if a Saddlebreds start winning, people will want to buy them. I also think that a separate registry or organization within the breed would be helpful if people were trying to find the correct type for sport, but I did read that other thread on the sport registry and it was ugly, so I don't know what they are going to do.

For those that want to promote an unusual breed for sport, I think you just have to look to the long term and get your horses out in the show ring.

[SportArab]

Tanya... I know you know how to read.. So let's try again..

I said.. I wasn't impressed with what I saw at Devon. I didn't say .. that means all saddlebreds are bad.

If you want to say that you saw the Arabs presented at Devon in the in hand class and you didn't like those specific horses because they displayed certain traits, I have no problem with that.

What you've been saying is that there are certain undesirable "arab traits", which you haven't bothered to name, that make the breed less desireable as a sport horse.

I see thse things as very different.

[jumper11]

SportArab, just a thought, if you want to discuss arabs, why don't you post another thread? Not meaning to sound snarky, but you keep throwing in these random posts, re; Arabs, and its a bit confusing.

[Albion]

Arabs keep coming up because - like Saddlebreds - they are not always favorably regarded by the sporthorse world.

I don't understand the whole 'warmblood' thing. If you have one, great. If you don't, who cares?

I know a perfectly lovely 5 year old Percheron/TB cross, who has a heart of gold & totes his novice rider around low jumper courses (a very nice looking cross, btw, not at all clunky & very well matched in his parts) - he's NOT a warmblood, his owner doesn't CLAIM he's a warmblood, and guess what? He's STILL a good horse! Being a 'warmblood' doesn't MEAN you're going to have a great horse on your hands. You may, you may not. The name doesn't mean a damn thing, especially with some registries that take a variety of disperate types, without seeming to have some sort of goal for a 'type' down the road.

If your Saddlebred is fantastic, why not promote THAT, as opposed to saying, 'Oh, he's an American Warmblood, or an Americana Sport Horse, or whatever'. And if he's a cross, why not SAY that he's a cross? Why does it HAVE to be a warmblood? And why is every new cross supposedly a 'warmblood'? I have nothing against crosses that go a bit against the grain - I have a pony cross planned that I think just might work, using a VERY untraditional breed (much more so than Saddlebreds) - but I'm not going to sit there and say it's a warmblood, or an American Warmblood, or a Western warmblood, or whatever. It will be a Welsh crossbred.

[SportArab]

Jumper11.. happy to stick to the topic at hand.. saddlebreds.. am simply responding to comments by Horsecrazy27 (Tanya), who seems to need to talk about the consistency of my opinions on the two breeds..

[Jasmine]

Thank you Albion. That was well said.

[jumper11]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SportArab:
Jumper11.. happy to stick to the topic at hand.. saddlebreds.. am simply responding to comments by Horsecrazy27 (Tanya), who seems to need to talk about the consistency of my opinions on the two breeds.. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Gotcha...

[Paramedics Rule!]

Have ANY of you even read Fairview Horse Center's original post on this thread? Go back and read it! It really IS informative!!

[Jasmine]

No one is saying that Saddlebreds aren't great. We're just saying that they are NOT warmbloods, and were not used in the foundation of the warmblood breed. TBs and Arabs WERE. Saddlebreds can do the same things a warmblood can. That does not make them warmbloods.

Lianne is insisting that the owners of the colt in question were not after registration as a warmblood. Some of us find it hard to belive that they wouldn't have taken him to a DSHB or Hunter Breeding show, which would have been cheaper, if they really weren't interested in the AWS papers.

[Fairview Horse Center]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

once again http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sport type saddlebreds are closer in conformation to modern type warmbloods than TBs or Arabs. TBs and Arabs are not warmbloods either. Movement wise, both are designed to cover a lot of gound with low, flat gaits. TB's are often very down in front, low neck set, not what you want in a warmblood for sport.

Europe had access to a large TB and Arab base from which to choose suitable horses, so that is what they used. They didn't have access to a large saddlebred base to pick and choose the ones that would be suitable. Just because Europe was not able to use them, dosen't mean they wouldn't have worked, and possibly better.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Predjudice IS a poor substitute for thought.

[Equibrit]

Paramedic
FHC has a view, her view, I'm sure we all read it. The fact that she posted it does not make it Gospel!
It just wasn't that earth shattering!

BTW - where do you think the Saddlebreds came from?

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jasmine:
Some of us find it hard to belive that they wouldn't have taken him to a DSHB or Hunter Breeding show, which would have been cheaper, if they really weren't interested in the AWS papers. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif as quoted from above
BTW, last time I entered a Dressage Sporthorse show, it was MUCH more expensive and farther that an AWS Inspection. The comments at an AWS inspection are MUCH more extensive than any other inspection.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I think you will find that 99% of what I posted are not my views or opinions, but facts.

[Albion]

No one is SAYING that TBs and Arabs are warmbloods.

*I* don't understand WHY it makes any difference that the ASB is 'closer' to modern warmbloods than TBs or Arabs. WHO CARES? My pitbull looks like a whippet. That does NOT make her a whippet. An ASB can look & move like a warmblood - that does NOT make it a warmblood. A draft cross can look and move like a warmblood - that does NOT make it a warmblood. A TB can look and move like a warmblood - that does NOT make it a warmblood.

WHY is it so hard to judge INDIVIDUALS, not a breed?

I don't have a breed prejudice - frankly, as long as a horse is suitable for its purpose, I could care less what sort of breeding it has. My first pony was a walking horse & was one of the best horses I ever owned. But this absolute insistance that anything that is not a TB, not an Arab, and not a draft is a warmblood is ridiculous. Why can't you just be proud of whatever breed or crossbred you happen to own? What DIFFERENCE does it make if it's registered, approved, whatever, with a fledgling registry that doesn't have much credibility with many breeders? I'm sure it's a nice horse. Just let it be a nice horse! It doesn't HAVE to be a warmblood.

[Jasmine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse
BTW, last time I entered a Dressage Sporthorse show, it was MUCH more expensive and farther that an AWS Inspection. The comments at an AWS inspection are MUCH more extensive than any other inspection. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps the inspection that I am paying for is more expensive than AWS, or DSHB classes in my area are cheaper than those in your area. If so, I apologize.

Again, I have nothing against Saddlebreds. I have something against the people that insist they are warmbloods. They're not. They should be promoted as the breed they are, not something else. Albion said it very well.

[Fairview Horse Center]

Most people want to be a part of an organization that supports their interests and goals, offers awards, educates, sends newsletters, etc. The AWS fills that need. They are not taking just any individual, but judging and scoring those horses to find the ones that could perform in the Sport disciplines. MOST people that bring non-traditional breeds leave very disappointed as they have read these (incorrect) threads and believe it is a registry for anything - NOT. They are also only accepted into a lower book.

Again, the AWS is a performance registry to promote the International Sport Disciplines. Their inspections are held in a seminar type forum. They will inspect any breed for educational purposes to promote breeding the types of conformation and gaits that will perform in those disciplines. They will "RECORD" (like the USEF, USDF, etc) a horse registered in another breed for award purposes. I DO think the more appropriate name would have been "Sporthorse" rather than "Warmblood", but HEY, it is not MY registry. I didn't start it over 20 years ago (where were you and what were you breeding then?) Back then, there were not a whole lot of warmbloods in this country, and even fewer organized registries promoting them.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The AWS charges $95. for foals, and $110. for older horses - to record them for sport awards IF they have an acceptable score. One way of getting an acceptable score is thru an inspection. The AWS offers a one time inspection for free to a registered or recorded horse.

I just sent a check to Dressage at Lexington for $114.00. I will get about 10 words if I am lucky on the score sheet, and no verbal critique. Along with trailering, hotel, handler (AWS foals and yearlings can go loose, so I don't need to be able to run), USDF fees, ESEA fees, braider, etc., probably $600-$700.

[Jasmine]

Yep, my inspection will be more. I shouldn't have assumed, I apologize. I don't count the USDF fees, or the Membership fees to the warmblood registry. I'll need a braider for both (I could do it myself, but I don't want to be laughed out of the ring!), and stall, and transport, so that all comes out in the wash.

I'm sure the colt is lovely. Many Saddlebreds are. I still don't think they're warmbloods. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif My mind isn't going to change on that. It's too bad there isn't a better place for the Saddlebred Sporthorses to go than a Warmblood registry. I don't feel that it does the registry or the Saddlebred any good to be a "saddlebred-warmblood." Unless it's a cross, of course! That's my opinion, and one of the reasons I won't deal with the AWS. I KNOW others disagree with me.

[CentralCoast]

It seems this has deteriorated once again into whether the AWS has the right to the capitol "W" in their name and how they allow "those" kind of horses into their registry (pick your breed or cross to belittle and incert in "). How dare "those" people aspire to be Warmbloods! Why can't they just stick with their own kind! I am saddened that many here don't seem to be able to support a fledgling registry that has honorable, lofty goals. In 50-100 years, by accepting many horses that are talented--and judging them as individuals with talent-not by pedigree alone, maybe the AWS will be able to achieve those goals. But I don't get the anger that some of you feel because the AWS is doing this. Can't we put our differences aside and judge the horses inspected as individuals, worthy of being judged and hold our denigration until it's been been proven beyond doubt that this approach is wrong, fraudulent or fattening? The people who own lovely stallions, like Art Deco, Happy Hour, Fuerst Gotthard, and Pablito, to name a few who post here, are supporting the AWS with their stallions. Do you think they do not know that draft crosses, Appendix QH and ASB's are being inspected into the registry? Of course they do... they're looking at the long term. Someday, maybe the horses in the AWS might become warmbloods with a capitol W.

[Janet]

For those that need a history lesson.

The various European Warmbloods started as registries for horses that were being bred in a particular "state", that met certain conformation and performance "standards". Various other horses were added into the breeding pool when it was thought that they could imrove the "type", especially as the desired type was evolving from "cavalry/light carriage horse" to "sport horse".

In that sense, by "approving" horses based on
-state/nation of breeding
-conformation
-performance
the AWS is behaving VERY MUCH as the European warmblood registries did in their early days. (And as the Dutch Warmblood did even more recently.)

As to the merits of their particular conformation and performance criteria, I can't comment.

But in CONCEPT, it is VERY similar to the early behavior of the European Warmbloods.

Personally, if a horse LOOKS like a sport horse, and behaves/PERFORMS like a sport horse, I don't see why it shouldn't be accepted into the "geographical sport horse registry" for its geographical region, regardless of what "breed" it is or isn't.

[Janet]

For whoever said that (s)he had not seen any saddlebreds they liked at Devon, were you referring to sadlebreds in the saddlebred class (which presumably were ones that matched the saddlebred conformation standard), or saddlebreds that were in the dressage/sport horse breeding classes (which presumably are the ones that are closer to the sport horse conformation standards)?

[Lianne]

Well said, Janet.

[Rocky XVI]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Equibrit:
BTW - where do you think the Saddlebreds came from? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I sure as heck didn't know, so I looked it up.

http://www.asha.net/breed.html

They were originally gaited horses from England that were brought to the U.S. and continually crossed with American Thoroughbreds and other breeds including Arabians and Morgans.

Now, some people will use the argument that the similarity to their development makes them fundamentally the same as warmbloods. But what you have to keep in mind is that the breeding goals of generations of saddlebred breeders was not the same as the breeding goals of generations of warmblood breeders. This means that although they may both have used tbs and arabs in their breeding, they probably chose different types, different individuals, along the way to produce specific characteristics, which are the differences we have today.

Going back to the original post:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Equibrit:
Red was rated Red Preferred, and her colt Starbuck was rated Supreme. With a score of 87.5, Starbuck was first out of 25 horses entered. The judge said he was one of the best foals she'd ever seen and she expected to see him in year-end national standings.

After judging was over, the judge asked about Starbuck's breeding, particularly his sire. Beth replied, "The sire is Buck's Co-Star. The foal is 100% Saddlebred." The judge's mouth fell open and she said "SADDLEBRED??!!!!?". Oh, the stealth Saddlebreds, they are sweet.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now, I'm assuming a couple of things. I'm assuming that the judge is fairly knowledgeable, and I'm also assuming that this particular mare and foal were fairly atypical saddlebreds, or the judge's mouth wouldn't have dropped in surprise.

So how do the results of a few atypical saddlebreds provide positive proof that saddlebreds as a breed do or do not make great sporthorses, or that they are or are not on par with warmbloods for the olympic disciplines? Sorry, but I'm scratching my head over the leap in logic here.

And let's keep things in perspective - another show, another judge, another result. That's the way of judged classes. So in my opinion, the results of a few individual horses in a handful of classes does not change generations of selective breeding.

[SportArab]

I was the one who didn't like the Saddlebreds at Devon... that was 2001 and it was the Saddlebred class. Didn't see any Saddlebreds in the open classes that I watched.

[Horsecrazy27]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SportArab:
Tanya... I know you know how to read.. So let's try again..

I said.. I wasn't impressed with what I saw at Devon. I didn't say .. that means all saddlebreds are bad.

If you want to say that you saw the Arabs presented at Devon in the in hand class and you didn't like those specific horses because they displayed certain traits, I have no problem with that.

What you've been saying is that there are certain undesirable "arab traits", which you haven't bothered to name, that make the breed less desireable as a sport horse.

I see thse things as very different. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


You don't have to be rude.

I did not say "ALL arabs", but when attending inspections I have found some traits were mention repeatedly on different horses--all arabs presented. NOT SAYING THAT ALL ARABS HAVE THESE traits and not saying that other breeds don't have these traits, but the 40+ that I have seen at inspections it was common. Example: hollow over back, wide behind, too high of tail set, small head (Balance issue), too fine of bones, trails out behind, coming through from the elbow, not the shoulder...but the horses all scored fairly well...high 6's, enough to pass into the breed registery to produce foals that could be registered. And producing foals that scored high 7's, even 8's. IF I thought in my mind that Arabs had BAD traits, why did I fight so hard to get them allowed in to the Euro. books???? That was 2 years of my life! I did not post these, because I did not want to offend people---you seem to not mind doing that. Life it too short to be rude, nasty and un mannerred. I thought I was very nice, pointing you in a direction to look at your mares---that they were nice, but, as I said in the other thread, many of these things are what makes Arabs =Arabs. Not that they are not sport horses, but when crossing them with a warmblood and wanting to get warmblood crosses, you need to pick a mare with a correct top line, great hind end, tracts correctly----basically doing this with any breed----any horse, you would want to pick the horse with the best sport horse qualities. I did not say that arabs were not sport horses. This is my last reply....this is so stupid. You were quick to point out flaws in another breed----or someone elses horses that are on this post, not being sensitive to that horse owner. I don't think you would like it if your horses/breed was attacked like you basically attacked this one.

I have not really paid much attention to the saddle bred,(because never was around them in person) but have heard of some outstanding crosses with Hann. and Old., beautiful. I have always been subject to TB's, Qtr, Arabs, then in late 1980's warmbloods. Since I first saw one in person, the warmblood, I have been in love. Having close friends who have been breeding arabians for decades, we got together and pushed to breed to warmbloods, after one of my friends bought "First Class" (Oldenburg Stallion Furioso/Zeus) He has since been sold years ago to Gary in Utah.

Have a great life...continued good luck with your breeding program.

Tanya

[jilltx]

Tolerance ~ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif GRACIOUSLY accepting differences.

[ASB Stars]

My undying appreciation for those intrepid and open minded souls who have commented positively here- you make it all worthwhile !

For the record...

The American Saddlebreds and all of the other horses competing in Individual Breed Classes at Dressage at Devon- the largest breed show of it's kind in the USA- are judged against the very same standards as any sport horse. No more, No less.

The American Saddlebred is not a "hot blood"-an Arabian, or a Thoroughbred. It isn't a "cold blood"; a draft breed. That makes it a warmblood breed, ladies and gents. It does NOT make it a European warmblood, or a warmblood living in America, of European descent, BUT, it makes it a warmblood. Why is that so difficult to accept ?

My Chiro/Accupuncture Vet, who raises nothing BUT Dutch warmbloods- of all of the very most notable bloodlines- and whose Idocus filly won at DAD several years ago, was here today. Even HE says that they are obviously warmbloods- because it is the only possible choice of the three.

These horses are not atypical ASBs- they are simply presented in a way that makes them fit it with what is expected. I absolutley don't expect most people- who have watched a five gaited class, with horses with different musculature from that type of work, cut and set tails, longer feet- well, you get the picture, to be able to envision that SAME horse in a sport horse presentation. I just ask that you don't immediately poo-poo what you have not personally experienced. At least TRY to be open minded about what you don't know.

BTW, Borealis, Infuriating, and Esperanza live here. I wouldn't have it any other way.

Julie

[sil]

For those not in the know, nowadays the fashion for Saddlebreds in the ring is high action and an upright neck to the detriment of everything else. There is so much money involved in the Saddleseat circuit that like Thoroughbreds being bred for speed, Saddlebreds are being bred for style.

Becuase the money comes from the demand for fashion, many, if not most, breeders focus on breeding high action and an upright neck!

This actually makes the 'modern' Show Saddlebred a very different animal to the actual and CURRENT breed type!!!

The correct breed type for a Saddlebred has substantial bone, a butt, brains, good forward elevated action with lots of push and suspension, a short strong back, deep girth, wide chest, a long, well set on neck and three (or five) very clean and correct gaits.

Long backs, dropped backs, sickle hocks, long cannons, weak pasterns, weak feet, weak hindquarters, swan necks, poor gaits, toe in toe out etc, these are ALL penalised - or supposed to be penalised =/ Recently the 3 gaited champion was a 3yo under saddle with such a lordotic back you could just step over her and sit down. But she was a fancy mover and had charisma.. so...

My understanding is that apart from weanling/yearling classes for futurities (where they are currently encouraged to be as pop eyed as possible and already have shoes on) there aren't really breed classes within the Saddlebred breed in America - just performance classes.

So there is nowhere to compare for breed classes, or classifications within the breed - apart from the Show Saddlebred Saddleseat circuit.

[Jean S.]

AGAIN, It was I that posted the brag on the Ultimate dressage forum and Equibrit choose to copy and paste it here to try to humiliate the accomplishment. My friends NEVER HID the fact they had Saddlebreds. Hell, It says it on their trailer! Anyway, they didn't even know the judge didn't know and the "oh the stealth saddlebreds" comment was because we are increasingly finding that MANY people DON'T know what you are riding (if you're not in saddleseat gear!) MANY saddlebreds are built correctly for dressage. Many have that build then the Saddleseat trainers teach them to use the "wrong" muscles and develop them what we think is upside down and backwards. (That's what most people recognize) Also, anyone who knows Saddlebreds, knows they can jump and jump pretty well despite bad riding. And they were originally bred to be athletic and VERSATILE. Be the gentleman's hunter, be the high stepping ladies driving horse, AND go all day doing it! (Not all Saddlebreds are gaited and I think someone made the comment here that the gaited ones do not make good dressage horses-wrong, "most" gaited SBs have more bone, not so slender) They were so revered that General Ulysses S. Grant, allowed Southern breeders to get their stallions back after the Civil war as the breed was almost decimated by the war. By the way, the Narragansett Trotter was the biggest influence on the breed.
At no time did my good friends ever try or will try to pass their horses off as anything but Saddlebreds and PROUD OF IT! They are just trying to get feedback from someplace OTHER than the ASHA who is just coming out of the dark ages.
I have ridden the mare, Ruby Red, myself, and she has a walk to die for, you can sit her trot until the cows come home, and her canter reminds me of an American Flag flowing softly in a breeze. Smooth as silk as well as her transistions. If her colt, Starbuck got higher marks than she did, can you imagine what he is going to be like to ride?
And then we get to the part of the "Credibility" of the AWS. I personally don't know them at all, but those who attacked it so viciously, where or what is your credibility? Or why should we believe you? Fairview Horse Center has proven theirs. Anyone can hide in front of a computer screen and say anything they want no matter how offensive. There are some who are so miserable in their own lives, they cannot be happy for anyone else. Bottom line is it's ONLY your opinion and Opinions are like A**holes-Everyone has one. It's a good thing we're not listening to all of them! Jean (who's not calling anyone the equivalent of an opinion!)

[Rocky XVI]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASB Stars:
The American Saddlebred is not a "hot blood"-an Arabian, or a Thoroughbred. It isn't a "cold blood"; a draft breed. That makes it a warmblood breed, ladies and gents. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if it's not a draft, and it's not a tb or Arab, it's a warmblood? I have never heard of such a thing before. Am I the only one who never learned this basic horse fact?

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rocky XVI:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ASB Stars:
The American Saddlebred is not a "hot blood"-an Arabian, or a Thoroughbred. It isn't a "cold blood"; a draft breed. That makes it a warmblood breed, ladies and gents. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So if it's not a draft, and it's not a tb or Arab, it's a warmblood? I have never heard of such a thing before. Am I the only one who never learned this basic horse fact? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pokey, all 10.1 hands of him, will be delighted to know that he is, being not Arab, TB, or draft, a WARMBLOOD! Actually I don't think he would care--he knows his meadow muffins don't stink already.

While logic would have it that anything neither totally "hot" nor totally "cold" must be "warm" by process of elimination, my experience in having this kind of discussion is that "warmblood" is a term of art. Typically referring to the European breeds, where in fact the terminology originated (Warmblut...).

Sort of like the way you can say that a horse brought into the states from Canada is "imported," and it is in fact, since it crossed an international border. But to use "imported" when you are talking about horses in North America generally means the animal crossed a body of water larger than one of the Great Lakes. It is the not strictly-technical but accepted meaning of "imported." Were it not the case, wouldn't all of the breeders in the southern states bordering Mexico buy some land down there on which to foal out their mares, and thus be able to market the foals as "imported"?

[equestrielle]

I agree that a warmblood is not just anything that's not TB, Arab or draft. According to that logic, quarter horses are warmbloods, as are standardbreds and tennesee walking horses. So we will have to look for a better definition than that.

However, imported is imported and if your horse is from Canada or Mexico it's imported. Most people do think that imported means from Europe, as you say though.

[Fairview Horse Center]

The "if not hot or cold blooded, they are warmblooded" refers to a temperament type, not an athletic type.

[ASB Stars]

Absolutely, FHC...

The problem seems to be that, rather than identify the horse simply by origins- types of foundations- there is this elitist connotation of "warmblood"...was it as a term of "art"?

Julie

[SportArab]

OK, so by this definition, morgans, quarter horses and paints are all warmbloods, right?

And how about tennessee walkers?

[SportArab]

Note to Tanya...

If you want to talk about Arabs, let's do it in another thread, ok?

This one is about Saddlebreds.

[LLDM]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
For those that need a history lesson.

The various European Warmbloods started as registries for horses that were being bred in a particular "state", that met certain conformation and performance "standards". Various other horses were added into the breeding pool when it was thought that they could imrove the "type", especially as the desired type was evolving from "cavalry/light carriage horse" to "sport horse".

In that sense, by "approving" horses based on
-state/nation of breeding
-conformation
-performance
the AWS is behaving VERY MUCH as the European warmblood registries did in their early days. (And as the Dutch Warmblood did even more recently.)

As to the merits of their particular conformation and performance criteria, I can't comment.

But in CONCEPT, it is VERY similar to the early behavior of the European Warmbloods.

Personally, if a horse LOOKS like a sport horse, and behaves/PERFORMS like a sport horse, I don't see why it shouldn't be accepted into the "geographical sport horse registry" for its geographical region, regardless of what "breed" it is or isn't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thank You Janet! Well said.

ASB - Congrats on producing an obviously lovely mare and foal. It seems that you have figured out a significant aspect of breeding for nice athletic horses. Any breeding program worth its salt starts with the best stock it can find and then selectively breeds those horses in an attempt to improve future generations. Since your nice mare is obviously passing on her good traits to her offspring and the stallion you chose improved the foal too, you should be proud.

Kudos too, for taking them to an inspection and getting objective feedback. This is also a hallmark of a good breeding program. What everyone here has failed to mention so far is that ALL breeding programs started out this way. Breeds are mostly (except in cases of geographical isolation) the product of human breeding selection (just like dogs).

"The Registries," meaning any group who maintains a studbook beyond a single farm, makes up their own rules of inclusion and exclusion and criteria for acceptance. The breeding philosophy is unique to each, as is the proceedure they use to achieve their desired standards. Many European registries vary widely in these philosophies and proceedures. I personally think it drives them nuts that many Americans lump them all together and consider them "the same". Just because they produce similar "types" of horses does NOT mean they do it by the same methods. Some rely more on performance, others conformation, others bloodlines, etc. Most use a combination of these in different measures. It is also interesting to note that many of the more exclusive registries whose books are very "closed" open them up for time to time to get their gene pools reinvigorated or infuse desired traits which may be inadvertantly declining in their program. This proceedure can be quite subtle, but it is there, nontheless.

You have only committed the cardinal sin of making it "look easy". Like an overnight success that in all probability has been working very hard for a long time and has finally landed in the right place at the right time. Whether you have spent generations breeding your horses or just "know how to pick 'em" is irrelevant. In either case you have done well and proven it against some objective standards. All the rest is just noise.

Breeding is hard. Many of the folks here work hard to produce nice horses and have very differrent methods and proceedures to make that happen. I believe there is just the fear that all their hard work is in vain if someone makes it "look" too easy. You may or may not know how diificult it is to market and sell nice horses to a bunch of people who don't have any idea how difficult it is to breed them or what difference a well bred horse can make to training and competition. I just wish they would spend more effort educating our market and finding ways to get the right horses to the right people, than arguing about the precise meaning of a generic term (eg. warmblood).

If your horses are reg. as Saddlebreds, then I will agree they are Saddlebreds. Since they are approved by the AWR or AWS (I forgot which http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif at this point) then I think they would also be considered Warmblood breeding stock, as is my TB mare (who is quite TB BTW).

If everyone here wants to defend their breeding registries, I highly suggest that they be specific and argue by specific philosophies and rules for each individual registry. Other than that it is all just semantics.

SCFarm

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

Gee whiz, ASB Stars, talk about looking for a chance to bristle.

A term of art may have nothing to do with "art." Your dictionary will tell you is is "a word having a particular meaning in a field." Call it a "term of industry" or a "horse word" or whatever you like.

I guess it is best to stay out of the discussion on the central issue of this thread, since I wouldn't want to be branded as an elitist for using high-fallutin' words.

I still stand on "imported" meaning from overseas, when taken in the context of the sport horse world. I know "imported" technically means "from another country," but that is not the expectation established in the horse world. Heck, technically all horses are "warmbloods," since "cold blooded" would mean they have an adaptive circulatory system, like a reptile. But "cold-blooded" in that scientific sense means something different in the horse world, right http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Equibrit]

Originally posted by ASB Stars:
The American Saddlebred is not a "hot blood"-an Arabian, or a Thoroughbred. It isn't a "cold blood"; a draft breed. That makes it a warmblood breed, ladies and gents.

Does that mean that Meredith Hodges owns "warmbloods"?

[Horsecrazy27]

Hello,

I have supported the American Warmblood Society for YEARS! I love what they stand for and see consistant improvement from year to year from the knowledge that they provide to breeders at each inspection. I have not seen an organization be so pressed to improve or to continue to create the "ultimate American WArmblood". They started from scratch from horses here in the USA 25 years ago!! With the fantastic blood that we are allowed to use from our European counterparts, we should strive to produce horses that are even BETTER than theirs. Taking their (Europeans) mistakes to heart, learning from their many achievements, using their best horses, but putting our brand on them, because they were born in AMERICA. We should be proud to put our American Money in to the horses that we birthed here in America. Not always thinking the "grass is always greener". It is time to support what WE have created.

American Warmblood Statement:

GOING FOR THE GOLD!
As an Associate Member of the World Breeding Federation for Sport Horses (WBFSH) the American Warmblood Society (AWS) is an international, non-profit Performance Registry, whose only goal and purpose is to represent, promote, award and aid in the development of talented sport horses of allbloodlines, from the grass roots through the Olympic levels.
The AWS is the only sport horse association that registers, records and nominates horses, involved only in the classical sports supported by the United States Equestrian Team, Inc. (USET). These sports are Dressage, Eventing, Show Jumping and Combined Driving. By offering Breeders and Competitors unprecedented benefits and services the Society hopes to someday have the USET team competitors all riding and driving on the best horses in the world, YOUR American Warmblood.



"Blending Best to Best"
The time has come to produce and promote our own sport horses, the American Warmblood. By monitoring breeding through Inspections and performance the AWS ensures the selective breeding of the ideal sport horse. The ideal American sport horse is noble and correctly built of the modern type and is capable of superior performance in the classical disciplines and combined driving.

The AWS is a non-profit corporation and all monies collected through nominal fees are used to support: opportunity to be included in the World Breeding Federation of Sport Horses (WBFSH) listing, free in-hand clinics, free initial Inspections, brandings, DNA testing at cost, free stallion approvals, a 5-star recognition program, quarterly newsletters, an annual stallion service auction, free annual Sport Horse Guides, free approved stallion internet listings, free approved mare internet listings, one time registration fee only and the largest known sport horse awards program in the world!

The AWS is able to accomplish these amazing benefits and services because of the structure and strength of over one hundred volunteer State Directors, District and Discipline Representatives.

Tanya Holliday
American Warmblood Society, Arizona Director

[Horsecrazy27]

You know....with people, even if they are born of German parents, if they are born in American...they are "American". SHouldn't our horses be the same??????

Our country is in trouble financially, yet we continue to support other countrys??????

IF a saddlebred has the "stuff" to improve horses here in America with its offspring, I think it is a good thing. A good horse, that fits into that "perfect horse mold" that we are all trying to achieve, should be appriciated by all, not made fun of, or put down. That breeder of this saddle bred, put a lot of time, thought into creating such a creature that would be fit for the "sport Horse" world, taking the "sporty saddle breds" and crossing them with the same.

Good job to them and much success in the future.

TAnya

[trailblazer]

OK, if the AWS wishes to include combined driving as a breeding goal, then Morgans simply must be included in the registry. The three primary horses that will be representing the U.S. at the World Singles Combined Driving Championships are ALL Morgans. The alternate is a Welsh Cob. Not using Morgans as breeding stock would be no different than a Dressage Horse Registry refusing to use Dutch Warmbloods.

Personally (as a Morgan person) I don't think Morgans are Warmbloods. I think they are Morgans. But to fulfill its stated goals, it looks like Morgans will be included in the AWS at least as breeding stock. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[equestrielle]

To add fuel to the fire, I wonder what the percentage of Morgans in the sporthorse disciplines is comnpared to the saddlebreds??

I know quite a few eventing morgans.

[Fairview Horse Center]

I don't think anyone is saying that saddlebreds, arabs, tbs, or morgans are Warmbloods. The AWS is looking for a "type", just like the European Warmblood Registries are doing. Some of them have allowed Draft crosses, & QHs into the studbooks for breeding Warmbloods. They have found very nice individuals that they believe can be used to breed European Warmbloods. The AWS will allow other breeds to be inspected to. They are looking for the very nice individuals to use for breeding American Warmbloods.

There are some outstanding Morgans. Two Morgan stallions beat many of the European Stallions in the 100 Day tests back in the late 80s, early 90s? One placed 3rd in one testing, and another placed 4th.

I do see the "traditional" European Warmblood getting hotter and hotter. Every one wants to see that snorty, blowey trot at the European shows, so those are the "hot" stallions on the market. There are articles that the trot everyone is paying the big bucks for is a detriment to the more important canter. Are the Europeans making a mistake? Is what they are looking to produce because it sells getting closer and closer to that "show ring Arab". Could they be wrong? Could other options out there offer good Amateurs a lovely prospect that will be saner, and have a better canter than those Auctions trotting horses?

Maybe.

[equestrielle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Fairview Horse Center:
They have found very nice individuals that they believe can be used to breed European Warmbloods. The AWS will allow other breeds to be inspected to. They are looking for the very nice individuals to use for breeding American Warmbloods. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I still think this whole association has a problem with the "warmblood" name. What is an American warmblood? And I think you mean nice individuals to breed TO European warmbloods.

[Horsecrazy27]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by trailblazer:
OK, if the AWS wishes to include combined driving as a breeding goal, then Morgans simply _must_ be included in the registry. The three primary horses that will be representing the U.S. at the World Singles Combined Driving Championships are _ALL_ Morgans. The alternate is a Welsh Cob. Not using Morgans as breeding stock would be no different than a Dressage Horse Registry refusing to use Dutch Warmbloods.

Personally (as a Morgan person) I don't think Morgans are Warmbloods. I think they are Morgans. But to fulfill its stated goals, it looks like Morgans will be included in the AWS at least as breeding stock. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Trailblazer, I have seen the Morgans at the inspections....many are registered or approved with AWS.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
Tanya

[Fairview Horse Center]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by equestrielle:
I still think this whole association has a problem with the "warmblood" name. What is an American warmblood? And I think you mean nice individuals to breed TO European warmbloods. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said before, I too would be happier with a Sporthorse name - I think all the "bloody" talk is gross, warm, cold or hot http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, but I didn't start this registry over 2 decades ago.

An American Warmblood is of course, a horse of desirable conformation, gaits, and temperament to be able to compete in the Olympic disciplines of: Dressage, Combined Training, Jumping, Combined Driving.

I did mean they are looking for the very nice individuals to use for breeding American Warmbloods - Just like the Oldenburgs found a nice QH to breed Oldenburgs.

[Horsecrazy27]

[]

I still think this whole association has a problem with the "warmblood" name. What is an American warmblood? And I think you mean nice individuals to breed TO European warmbloods.[/QUOTE]

What is an Oldenburg? My stallion is by an Oldenburg Stallion, Hannovarian Dam, His grand parents are Salle France and Dutch, great grand Parents are Holstiener and TB and Anglo Arab????

So, What is he? He wears an Oldenburg Brand, because back when he was foaled, I presented him to Oldenburg. But, growing as a person, I find this in all aspects odd, because he was born in the USA. It is a shame that we can't have enough confidence in our breeders here in America to produce fantastic horses, that many Americans would rather shop in other countries for horses, when we have the same quality now here in the USA. For the FIRST time in years, our quality matches that of our "heros". This has been said to me by several organizations, the inspectors for Hannovarian, RPSI, Salle Francie, Old/ISR....as well as what I have seen for myself. Sure it is neat to be in the country that I had admired and held "holy" because of their understanding of breeding/conformation/movement, but, thanks to them, we are able to have the same here, but to call them American. Even the Hannovarian Socieity is encouraging us to create our own Warmblood. This should be taken to heart.

I have seen some horses in every breed that are VERY correct in all aspects, I saw a Qtr horse mare in CA that I would of NEVER guessed was a Qtr horse, but would of swore up and down that she was a warmblood with "R" lines. I about died when I was told she was an American Qtr horse. She had beautiful movement and was doing 4th level dressage. She was an UPHILL mover and had very even conformation (not built down hill, like many of the Qtr horses here in AZ are). Smart people would take this mare and use it to bring more wonderful working horses into the world after she retired from the show ring. Should the American Warmblood Society take advatage of such a wonderful horse...ABSOLUTLY, would the Europeans who started out using their plow horses/wild horses/carriage horses and military horses to start thier own horses years ago....you bet they would use her to start their program up.

I think people should be less close minded and start appriciating what we have, what we have learned...be confident, buy American, the foals that you birth out on American Soil, call them American.

Sorry, I sound like I'm on a soap box, but this is very strong to my heart. I'm just as guilty for registering some of my horses with the Euro. registerys, because of equine market was unfair to the horses that were not registered with "Euro" brands, but I have always double registered/approved them, with American Warmblood Society after. But, I have decided, I'm just going with American for now on. Nothing against the other registery, I LOVE them for bring these horses to the USA and for being such a good example for us to learn from. But, I am bound and determined to support OUR horses.

But, one the BEST things about America is that we all have the right to say, feel and do pretty much what we want to do. That is just what I believe and something that I hope many others will start to see. Just because they have an American Brand, doesn't reflect the quality or a lack of breeding behind that horse. I know of some breeders of Dutch and Hann. that will only register their foals with AWS/AWR....because of the same reasons.

Tanya

[Janet]

I agreee that "American Sporthorse" would eliminate a lot of the confusion associated with "American Warmblood"

[Horsecrazy27]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
I agreee that "American Sporthorse" would eliminate a lot of the confusion associated with "American Warmblood" <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The only issue I have about that is, that we are creating a "warmblood"....or using Eurpean Warmbloods and crossing them with American TB or with other European Warmbloods....so, why not call them "Warmbloods".....

What I think confuses some people is that there are different books:

Eligibility for Registration
To be eligible for registration a horse/pony can be of any breed stock or combination thereof, except 100% hot- blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds), which can be nominated (see below).

Eligibility for Nomination
To be eligible for nomination a horse can be 100% hot-blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds). All AWS benefits are the same as registration.

Eligibility for Recording
To be eligible for recording the horse would have been previously registered with another registry. All benefits are the same as registration.

Types of Books
The Main Book, Pony Book and Elite Book (see below) are maintained by the National Office for all registered, nominated and recorded horses. Registration, Nomination or Recording is for the lifetime of the horse.

Main Book
For Main Book registered, nominated or recorded horses/ponies pedigree history is desirable, but not required. Main Book horses/ponies are for horses/ponies that qualify through their own performance.

Elite Book
For Elite Book registered, nominated or recorded horses/ponies pedigree history is required. This history must provide evidence of four generations of proven, documented sport horse/pony performance in one of the four sports supported by the AWS. The Elite Book horse/pony is included in the four generations and must also qualify through performance. DNA testing is required for all Elite Book Horses.

Sport Pony Book
Equine 14.2 hands or less will be in the Sport Pony Book (division). Ponies will receive separate year end awardss for national in-hand and inspections.

[maple_brook]

Well I don't pretend to be anywhere close to an expert on these topics, but after following this thread with a lot of head shaking and the occasional chuckle, I do feel the need to comment on this one statement.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Fairview Horse Center said:
I do see the "traditional" European Warmblood getting hotter and hotter. Every one wants to see that snorty, blowey trot at the European shows, so those are the "hot" stallions on the market. There are articles that the trot everyone is paying the big bucks for is a detriment to the more important canter. Are the Europeans making a mistake? Is what they are looking to produce because it sells getting closer and closer to that "show ring Arab". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think FHC has made some interesting points in her posts, but I don't think I can agree with this statement. Yes, the European wb is getting more refined, but I don't think they are getting 'hotter' in reference to temperament. I also don't see a comparison with the typical showy trot of the show ring arab and the showy trot of the typical European wb. I can appreciate both, but they use there body in a very different way. And I don't think it has anything to do with the training they have received...they are born using their bodies differently.

I do agree that the canter is important, and some of the European registries do judge the canter at their mare/foal inspections. The stallions ALWAYS have there canter judged, so I don't think they ignore this gait. But at breed shows it is impractical to show them at the canter as most people are sprinting to show off the trot appropriatly, so how would they ever be able to show the canter in-hand.

Again, I'm not trying to take sides on this argument, I just don't see the above statement as being accurate.

One final comment and then I will return to my lurking position...I think it would be better to tell us how great your breed is and leave it at that...without slamming the other breeds. You obviously love your breed very much, we all love our chosen breed. And it is very hard to not become defensive when that breed is slammed. So tell us how great your breed is and how good they are at their job, but do that without finishing the sentence with 'he can do it better than breed-X'. Just a thought.

[Horsecrazy27]

I like your last paragraph Linda! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I must say, I do see the wb getting "hotter". In temperment. I was in Germany and was really shocked. Most were Hot, but still in that "controlable" hot. It was something that seemed to be liked over there. I was thinking to myself--oh my, just like TB's! In my opinion from some comments that I heard, was that for many years thier horses were quite heavy and a lot of work for women to ride. So, they started to go lighter. Easier, more forward. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Tanya

[Jasmine]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horsecrazy27:


Eligibility for Registration
To be eligible for registration a horse/pony can be of any breed stock or combination thereof, except 100% hot- blood (Thoroughbred or Arabian) or 100% cold-blood (draft breeds), which can be nominated (see below).

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That right there is the problem a lot of people have with useing the "warmblood" tag. European Warmbloods are not just any breed. They are a specific breed unto themselves, which was created many, many, years ago and has had specific breeding goals ever since.

No one is saying that the AWS CAN'T do the same thing, but they loose respect by using the "warmblood" tag to describe these horses. It causes too many people to think "European Warmblood." If one is looking for a "European Warmblood" and goes to look at a horse registered as an "Warmblood" with the AWS and finds an appendix QH, what do you think that person's opinion of the AWS will be? It will not be favorable, that's for sure.

[Horsecrazy27]

---------
That right there is the problem a lot of people have with useing the "warmblood" tag. European Warmbloods are not just any breed. They are a specific breed unto themselves, which was created many, many, years ago and has had specific breeding goals ever since.

-------------
They are a specific breed unto themselves, which was created many, many, years ago and has had specific breeding goals ever since.

This statement is also true of the AWS. Just a newer version. Some European warmbloods have blank spaces in their pedigrees, many of them do on their 3-5 generation back. I wonder if these blank spaces is either lack of knowledge of the parantage or that it was not an "accepted" breed, but was a quality horse. Maybe similiar to the AWS???

Tanya

[Jasmine]

Yes, it is very similar. The confusion and anger comes in because the European Warmbloods are already established, and AWS is still working on achieving their ideal. They are not like the European Warmbloods, and accept horses that the European Warmbloods would not. Some breeders feel that the AWS is using the "warmblood" tag to capitalize on the high prices that the European breeds command, without having proven offspring. There aren't many AWS horses at international levels, yet. THAT is what people get upset about, not the AWS trying to create a new American horse. Just the "warmblood" label they use.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>That right there is the problem a lot of people have with useing the "warmblood" tag. European Warmbloods are not just any breed. They are a specific breed unto themselves, which was created many, many, years ago and has had specific breeding goals ever since. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>No they aren't. They are a collection of REGISTRIES (not breeds), each with its own specific breeding goal, which have changed significanly over time, even recently (which is why we refer to some horses alive today as "old style"). Ad some of them (such as the sporthorse version of the Dutch Warmblood), are not much (if any) older than the AWS.

Sorry. That argument doesn't hold water.

[Jasmine]

So you're saying that Warmblood is not a breed at all? Yes the European Warmbloods are a collection of registries. Breed registries. Yes each registry has their own goals. The goals of each are remarkably similar to each other, and the AWR, and AWS, and TASHR. Yes the goals have changes over the decades, and I'm sure AWS's will too.

Appendix QHs, Saddlebreds, Drafts, and most crosses are not Warmbloods in the "European" sense! THAT why some people get upset about the AWS registering those horses. It has nothing to do with what is or is not a nice horse, or what those horses are capable of. To the uneducated buyer (and let's face it, there are a lot of them out there) the AWS label is often confused with the European style of Warmblood. It is misleading to those that do not know the difference.

[evenstar]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Most were Hot, but still in that "controllable" hot. It was something that seemed to be liked over there. I was thinking to myself--oh my, just like TB's! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
So, given time, maybe some day they'll be able to breed to TB standards! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
(That's assuming that all this emphasis on short distance racing doesn't completely ruin the TB).

I'm not surprised this topic has generated so much discussion and heat in such a short time. Breeders do what they do for love of their breed. A little money would be nice, but nobody out here is going to compromise their breeding program. Right now, the AWS is so new, that it's really hard to see (from my perspective as a rider/buyer) where they are headed. They don't have a Justin Morgan available to stamp everything with a type early on. And they take in such a wide variety, you wonder how it'll all turn out. There's a ground floor for every venture, so let's see how things stand in a couple hundred years.

[Horsecrazy27]

A good point Janet.

Many of the "European WArmblood" reg. are only around 75 years old! AWS is 25 years old. If you went back 50 years with the Euro. WB, I bet you would see similiar horses. I know that the European draft horses are different, more leggy and a bit lighter....but, in the beginning all were used. The Hackney, Arab, TB, ect. were all used. When you go to the "Del Mar" pedigree and look up warmbloods, go to the "photo" part of the pedigree and look at the horses from about 50-75 years ago...even at 5th generation horses....SOME, NOT so "sporty" looking. Some were pretty, um.....well, horses I would not think of breeding today. But, look at the end results.

I think it is a great thing for America. It is too bad that it got off on a bit of a bad foot, but the end result is the thing that we should focus on, not how it started, but where it is going.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
God Bless,
TAnya

In all fairness, we should have to come up with our own breed. If we are trying to come up with a "Warmblood", the name suits it.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[sil]

Whether or not I or you think that any registry or society ought to use, or not use, the term 'Warmblood' - fact is a registry can call it anything they like http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

We used to have fun calling our purebred bucky/dun colt a 'Bavarian Butter Bay'.

[Horsecrazy27]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Some breeders feel that the AWS is using the "warmblood" tag to capitalize on the high prices that the European breeds command, without having proven offspring. There aren't many AWS horses at international levels, yet. THAT is what people get upset about, not the AWS trying to create a new American horse. Just the "warmblood" label they use. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The money issue...just wanted to point out that it is a "non-profit" organization. I know your talking about horse owners wanting a profit, but that is a different issue, that is what the people have done with it, not AWS. It is people who are uneducated about buying horses/raising them, that have this issue. Most people, if they like the horse, if it is talented and doing well in the show ring, they don't care about the brand. I see that "Breeders" are the ones that are very sensitive about this. Not actual riders and trainers. Being a breeder.....and rider, you don't ride the papers. The AWS has the BEST rewards program at an incredible rate! This is super for promoting horses for sales. Also, check out there stallion listing! If you review their stallion list, it is of some really NICE horses--with great blood lines.

Tanya

[Tannenwald Trakehner]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Horsecrazy27:
The money issue...just wanted to point out that it is a "non-profit" organization. I know your talking about horse owners wanting a profit, but that is a different issue, that is what the people have done with it, not AWS. It is people who are uneducated about buying horses/raising them, that have this issue. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if the AW registries are true 501(c)(3) non-profit organizations, "non-profit" doesn't mean an organization doesn't have money, doesn't make money, doesn't want to make money, or is not allowed to make money. It means it falls into one of several categories for organizations who are permitted this favorable status for taxes.

Breeders, on the other hand, while often engaged in "for profit" endeavors, frequently don't make money... go figure, but another topic altogether.

An organization needs to attract breeders to gain popularity, standing, and revenue. Use of the word "warmblood" is an effort to capitalize on the cachet of the popularity/value/established market/etc of the European breeds. I can't even see how the opposite can be argued. Of all the words available to use in the name, the choice of "warmblood" could hardly be an accident.

My experience has been that many riders, owners and trainers DO care about the breed and/or breeding of the horses they ride/own/train. If they didn't, there would not be breeders of purebred horses.

One of my biggest peeves with the American warmblood registries, beyond the use of the "warmblood" word (I share the opinion that "sport horse" would be better), is that there is no consistency in horses of that registration. If I see an ad in the paper for an American Warmblood, without knowing what breeds are behind the thing, I have absolutely NO clue as to what kind of animal I would be calling about or going to see. There is no "breed standard." An AW could be a Belgian/QH, a very drafty Shire cross, literally just about any kind of light horse cross, and apparently now even a purebred ASB. I would think that alone would make a difference to buyers, and would present an obstacle to selling AW horses--it would be awfully hard to weed through what you want and don't when the name of the "breed" (though actually a registry) tells you nothing about what the beast is supposed to look like. I find people often like to stick with a breed that presents something of a "known quantity."

That's not the only issue, of course, but I think it is important when talking about marketing, breeding, and profit motivations.

[RHdobes]

(Donning flame-suit)

I believe that in my basement I have a stallion issue of either CoTH or PH from 20-25 years ago that shows a pinto Saddlebred stallion imported from the U.S. and advertised for stud IN EUROPE. I believe that he may be the basis for some of the pinto WARMBLOODS that have been imported. As it is 2:00 a.m., I believe I will wait for tomorrow to dig through my decades of magazines.

I've always considered the Morgan Horse the "first American Warmblood." Well, it WAS half-Thoroughbred, and the early Morgans won as under-saddle racing and sulky racing. The same breed (and sometimes horses) were also used for logging and plowing. Plus, if you look at a classic, old-type Morgan, they bear a startling resembling to Friesians and OTHER European WARMBLOODS.

It's hard to know what a Quarter Horse, Paint, and Appaloosa are nowadays. My cousin's Appaloosa is spotless and could pass for a breeding stock Paint or a Quarter Horse. Of course, I believe he IS half-Quarter Horse. And then the Paints could be considered either Quarter Horses or Thoroughbreds. And so many of the Quarter Horses are 3/4 or 7/8 TB, that it makes no sense to me to call them QHs.

And what's it with the European warmbloods that are 1/2 (or more) TBs, yet no one gives the Thoroughbred credit for what it brings to the various "breeds."

And what is it with the Arabian people? Twenty-five years ago, I see a particular breed with a particular movement and headset, be it "English" or "Western." Now, I see Saddlebred wannabees in the English classes and peanut rolling Quarter Horse wannabees in the western. Why are the Arabian people NOT happy to have their Arabian horses move LIKE Arabians? They are SO unhappy with their breed that they have to find the new REGISTERABLE Half-Arabian with the fanciest or winningest action or color, i.e., breeding to Saddlebreds (National Show Horses? Can that be considered a LEGITIMATE breed?), Hackney Horses, Friesians, Gypsy Vanners/Drum/Wagon, Dutch Warmbloods, Paints (Pintabians), QHs (Quarabs), Morgans (Morabs), Appaloosas (Arappaloosas), etc. I have NEVER seen a group of people MORE determined to turn its breed into something that it is not.

For some of us, it's a losing battle to try to promote our horses within our breed. The comparable classes---hunter, dressage, western---are a poor shadow of what we were taught. I'm wasn't afraid to show my Morgan against all breeds. We didn't do well under saddle, but my 15.1 mare could jump 3'6" with the best of them. And catty! But I digress... If we're willing to take our "sport" Saddlebred, Arabian, Morgan, Friesian, etc. and show them against all breeds, subjecting them to subjective opinions, more power to us all!

I show my Doberman in American Kennel Club, United Kennel Club, Australian Club of America, and States Kennel Club obedience trials. (Obedience trials are kinda like 'doggy dressage', only without the CONTROL.) I train with people that will show only AKC and look down on all other kennel clubs as beneath them, the judges are 'inferior', and it's "too easy" to earn titles, making those titles 'unworthy.' I show in ALL of these kennel club trials, because I have trained long and hard, and I love every opportunity to show off my wonderful, rescued dog.

In my dog's last three trials (States Kennel Club), he placed 3rd, 2nd, and 1st, and he also took "High Scoring Working Group Dog" in trial. Sure, he only got 197 points out of 200---that's 98.5% for you dressage people. The people I train with could look down on my States Kennel Club scores---really, it IS a sort of rinky-dink run (national) organization, but guess what? The judges are ALSO American Kennel Club obedience judges, and they cut me no breaks.

I READ the original posting as someone who proud to present their horses as recognized SPORTHORSES, not as WARMBLOODS. They were looking, as I always am, for others to appreciate what wonderful animals we have.

And now, that I have alienated everyone.....

[pintofoal]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I believe that in my basement I have a stallion issue of either CoTH or PH from 20-25 years ago that shows a pinto Saddlebred stallion imported from the U.S. and advertised for stud IN EUROPE. I believe that he may be the basis for some of the pinto WARMBLOODS that have been imported. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There is NO "basis" in that whatsoever

[TouchstoneAcres]

If you go back hundreds of years, and look at old paintings of horses in Europe, there were pintos. Even in Lipizzan ancestors.

[Horsecrazy27]

Hello,

Liz, I also remember that, and remember seeing a "saddle" bred in a pedigree of a "European Warmblood". I will do some research and get back to you, but, I for sure remeber it, because I was a bit shocked and wiped my eyes to look again. I will have to check it out to see if I can find it again--I was on the internet when I saw it though. So, this may be a challange because I'm all over the place. It was a popular horse too---maybe the Europeans gave it a different registry name --like approved it as a "Hannovarian" or something, so it wouldn't stick out so much.

As to the comment above that they don't have one type of horse that they are approving. They give scores---the low scores go to the horses that don't quite fit into their goal...the high scores go to the horses that are closer to the resulting goal. So, if you see an ad for a American Warmblood, maybe call and get the score. If it was giving a lower score, maybe its body type is not what you would be interested in, but if it was a higher scoring horse--then you might like it. Did you all know that "RPSI" is accepting AWS horses into their registry. The first of the European Registrys to recognize AWS efforts.

I saw basically the same type of scoring with RPSI as I did with AWS. THe modern horses would score higher, the older type scored lower.

I believe that the foal of the AWS, that was registered with RPSI, can also be presented to another Registery as a 3 year old? for approval, then the resulting foal if the above was approved can be registered into that registry, RIGHT?

It is all starting to "blend". Which to me shows that AWS is on the right track.

So, creating American Warmbloods----maybe if they had different name for scores---like horses that score under a 70 get approved as Sport Horses...then horses that score over 70.1 get approved as Warmbloods. Don't know, but if European registrys are recognizing their efforts and their horses, what is the problem?

Tanya

[RHdobes]

Note, pintofoal, that I said "some." I have things to do today, and my basement IS a jungle, but I'll make a tolerable effort in the next couple-a days to see if I can track the issue down. I tended to keep "stallion" issues of magazines.

[pintofoal]

I make it and it has been my business to know just about every pinto Warmblood and their bloodlines that are out there and where the "color" comes from. I do not know of a single EUROPEAN pinto Warmblood that has ANY Saddlebred in them. I have nothing against Saddlebreds (we had some WONDERFUL crosses by our stallions from them) I have nothing against AWS (We have all of our stallions registered/Approved with them) BUT over the many years I have been doing this time and time again I always have to argue with folks about WHERE the color comes from--I've been told I don't know how many times that "OH it comes from American Paints or American Pintos or OH NO it must come from Saddlebreds, so your horses must have Paint or Saddlebred in them" the "pinto" coloring is NOT AN AMERICAN phenomenon nor invention, the pinto coloring has been in breeds through out the ages throughout the world. It gets old having to convince people. So not to flame you but to infer that "some" of the pinto Warmbloods are getting their color from Saddlebreds just perpetuates this misconception.

[RHdobes]

Not some of them "ARE", but some of them "DID." I'm sure it's not happening now, but why all of a sudden, 20-25 years ago, did they show up? After years and years of "plain" bay, chestnut, and greys, they made an appearance.

Are we saying that for hundreds of years, these pinto European warmbloods were being hidden in the backyards?

Like, I said, I'll go through my magazines to see if I can find that particular stallion and his picture. And, like I said, it was 20-25 years ago, and I have moved four times in that timeframe, so it ain't gonna be easy...

[aurum]

That is totally nonsense. The European Pintos have no Saddlebred in them.

The Saddlebred that was once influenced in Holland was Denmark's Golden Playboy and he was only entered into the Dutch Harness division of the KWPN, NOT the Warmbloods.

The Pintos did exist in the Trakehners and in other breeds long ago. The spanish had Pintos too and so the color came to America, but we did never ever influence Saddlebred into our WBs that is for sure, not DID and not MIGHT but NEVER EVER.

[Albion]

I don't know where the pinto coloring comes from, but I DO know that if you look at *European* prints from the 18th & 17th century (and I've seen quite a few 'in the flesh' in European print stores) - mostly the type showing haute ecole moves - PINTO coloring is common. Whatever THOSE horses were is probably where the coloring came from - and, let's face it. While color breeds - and flashy colors of traditionally non-colorful breeds - are very popular today, for a long time, they were undesirable & the only ones you saw in the English showring were ponies of some type. I only collect 19th century & earlier prints of TB racehorses (although several of the haute ecole prints I've come across have been very beautiful & I considered snapping them up!), so I don't have any photos offhand I could share with you. But I do have some repro. postcards from 18th century prints, and 3 of the 4 horses are pintos! Its pretty neat if you ask me.

Pintos show up in hide paintings from North America, scrolls from China & Japan, and European prints - LONG before Saddlebreds, Paints & Pintos (as a breed & color organization as we know them), etc. were in existance.

[pintofoal]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif RHdobes...are you just trying to yank my chain!? If you can find me 1 just 1 European pinto Warmblood who is or who has decedents in the MAIN foal/stud Warmblood books(not just the colored books) that has that pinto Saddlebred as a sire or any Saddlebred as a sire or in its pedigree. I will give you a free breeding; you can sell it or use it, but I'm not too worried about having to "make good" on it--since there is no way http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Pinto Warmbloods didn't just make an "appearance" 20-25 years ago. Samber is 28 years old, his color comes from his dam who was Dutch going back to the old Gronigen, Gelderlander and some Holsteiner lines. There have been Pinto Traks through out history and in other Warmblood breeds decades and decades ago. I'm not going to write a thesis on color in the Warmbloods to prove it to you. It's your turn to PROVE your claim, That Saddlebred may have very well stood in Europe but he did NOT sire any pinto Warmbloods. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif

[RHdobes]

No, actually, I'm not trying to yank anyone's chain.

I was going to edit my last posting to say I remember "one Saddlebred" but find I can't. I guess taking a nap to deal with my summer cold/allergies allowed too much time to go by to edit.

I stand corrected on the "pintos throughout the ages." I believe I am correct in my memory as to that one advertisement I saw 20-25 years ago but will have to find time to prove it.

I'd like someone to explain the what the KWPN is---I'm not up on the particulars of the European warmbloods/registeries/differences. (LOL! A half-sister of my horse was approved for breeding by a Hanoverian registry, Belgian Warmblood, and Trakehner---American registries?)

Thanks for the offer, but my Thoroughbred IS a gelding. The next horse of my choice will once again be a Morgan (preferably gelding). If I HAD a Morgan mare, I've already picked some really nice, old-fashioned type Morgan stallions to inquire about. My ambitions at this stage of my life are much too low to want or need something from your level of breeding.

Thanks for the offer, though. It shows that you feel that you have the convictions of your beliefs and study.

Initially, I was just a bit miffed that some people focused on 'Saddlebred' = 'warmblood' when I took it that someone who loves Saddlebreds and wanted to show them off by getting another person's/registry's/organization's opinion. The attacks on this person/horses/breed/registry-organization/whatever, the 'take them home where they belong attitude' that I read into posts, upset me. It yanked MY chain, possibly because I've seen the same thing happen among dog-showing people. Like when someone proudly announcing that her friend has been successful in the conformation ring showing a Doberman with uncropped ears, got comments that the dog probably wasn't that good, that where the dog lives is NOT the hub of Doberman activitiy, that it doesn't take much or many dogs to win 'majors'/classes there, 'why doesn't the owner show the dog where he'd have "real competition", etc.

This will be my last post on this particular subject unless/until I can find the particular magazine that I mentioned.

[pwynnnorman]

Gotta weigh in on this, belatedly.

I cannot for the life of me remember which horse it is, but if any of you have ever seen Rembrandt, Gigolo or Bonfire (it was one of those three) move, you'd see what someone said earlier about conformation and movement.

One of those three horses you would swear is a Saddlebred--you'd swear it. He's built that way, he moves that way and he was a fabulous campaigner. Gosh, how I wish I had that tape stll that had him piaffing like he had a metronome in his head!

ONE of those three horses has incredible action: knee, hock. He doesn't seem to sit down as much as some, but his rhythm and the sheer EASE with which he performed was just awe inspiring.

Gosh, guys, go and watch some videos of the top dressage horses over the past ten years. It isn't the BREED, it's the "type" and isn't that what those inspectios are supposed to be about? Identifying and preserving the type that suits the disciplines? After all, "warmlood" isn't a breed, either. It's a type. If a horse fits the type, in movement, conformation or whatever traits those who recognize and apreciate the type acknowledge, WHAT's THE BIG DEAL HERE?

Moreover, guess what? No one can say WHAT blood is in ANY horse pre-DNA and blood-typing, not even in Europe. Whose to say that somewhere way back, Rembrandt-Gigolo-Bonfire (I think it was Bonfire) didn't have some Hackney back there? Who's to say? What does it matter? It produced a phenomenonal dressage horse (no, he didn't move like Donnerhall--but then again, neither does Rusty, does he?

I really must admit to dismay when discussions seem to ignore the competition standard at the top of the industry. The way some of y'all go on, you'd think that ALL dressage horses moved alike and carried themselves alike. There is such HUGE variation at the upper levels: Bonfire (I think) had a LOT--a WHOLE LOT--of knee and hock action (and he wasn't alone). Oh, how I wish some of you could see the horse I mean!!! Living proof that a "type" not at all dissimilar to the Saddlebred can reach the very pinnacle of sport.

[trailblazer]

Yeah, Bonfire looked an awful lot like a Hackney! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ASB Stars]

pwynnnorman...

I remember showing the picture of Bonfire that used to appear in the ad in DT to a friend, and saying, "SEE!!!". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

The fact that the dressage horse has come to a "modern type" which is lighter of build (read: not-a-stump-puller http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)and greater of expression (read: elevates the front, and demonstrates range of motion http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif) has created a window through which the "sport type ASB" can slip through. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I had a delightful "I" judge out here the other morning who was just beside herself about the ASBs. She had formerly been an instructor at William Woods, and had seen ASBs only in their "show mode". http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif She actually asked whether one gelding was branded..."is that a BRAND there ?" He was doing a pretty fine passage in lines at the time. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Nope ! GEN-U-WINE American Saddlebred.

As I have said before, try to imagine them without the structure and paraphanalia of the "show" world...but that is NOT easy, that I'll give ya !

Julie

[Fairview Horse Center]

is this the picture? Olympic Bonfire

[sil]

Bear in mind 95% of pinto 'purebred' Saddlebreds come from suspect stock - horses that magically become pinto from base coated parents, grandparents, and great grandparents.

[pwynnnorman]

It wasn't a picture I saw. It was a video.

But, whew, am I glad I'm not the only one who noticed! I read through all of the pages of this thread and just couldn't figure out what the hullabaloo was about, given what I'd seen.