BooHoo....No Mules at Foxhunting Camp!

[WareMule]

Darn it! I sent off my registration to Casanova Hunt for foxhunting camp, said on my form that I would be riding a mule, and got the info package back, so figured camp was a go for me and my Emma this Saturday. But then...come to find out (via having my check, form, and Coggins returned with no explanatory note, calling to find out why, and learning that a phone message had been left which my family failed to mention til I asked about it), Casanova has a "policy against letting mules participate" because so many of the attendees are beginners--some of whom "haven't ever ridden outside a ring"--and "many horses and ponies are frightened of mules."

If the riders are that inexperienced, I have to wonder if mules are the biggest thing they'll need to worry about in regard to hunting???

This is my first experience of mule prejudice and I am so disappointed...not so much with the fact that mules aren't welcome as in the fact that the policy against them wasn't included on the flyer or registration form. If it had been, I'd of course have respected it and never sent in a registration nor gotten my hopes up.

Yeah, I know--there aren't many of us riding mules, but still...we are out there. And yeah--I'll take some cheese with this whine! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[WareMule]

Darn it! I sent off my registration to Casanova Hunt for foxhunting camp, said on my form that I would be riding a mule, and got the info package back, so figured camp was a go for me and my Emma this Saturday. But then...come to find out (via having my check, form, and Coggins returned with no explanatory note, calling to find out why, and learning that a phone message had been left which my family failed to mention til I asked about it), Casanova has a "policy against letting mules participate" because so many of the attendees are beginners--some of whom "haven't ever ridden outside a ring"--and "many horses and ponies are frightened of mules."

If the riders are that inexperienced, I have to wonder if mules are the biggest thing they'll need to worry about in regard to hunting???

This is my first experience of mule prejudice and I am so disappointed...not so much with the fact that mules aren't welcome as in the fact that the policy against them wasn't included on the flyer or registration form. If it had been, I'd of course have respected it and never sent in a registration nor gotten my hopes up.

Yeah, I know--there aren't many of us riding mules, but still...we are out there. And yeah--I'll take some cheese with this whine! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[Kryswyn]

I'm sorry you had this happen to you. You're absolutely right, the "No Mules" rule should be on the fliers.

Usually, everyone has a good time at Casanova's camp. However, my professional friend has attended and been frankly scared at the lack of control, ability, and general lack of suitability and preparedness especially in the non-jumping group. Most of her time in that group was devoted to listening to the JT-MFH's explain how to do a pulley rein to the folks whose horses were constantly bolting off! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[WareMule]

Yikes! Sounds like maybe I won't be sorry I am going to miss it. Too bad they can't break the non-jumping group into experienced riders who attend just to get experience of going on in a large group under their belts, and inexperienced riders who need a lot more baby-sitting. Seems it would be reasonable to not be quite so protective of the experienced group. Ah well. I guess I'll just have to spend my money somewhere else.

[Elghund2]

Actually Casanova breaks the non-jumping group down into many smaller groups. They have the groups ride before they do the break down.

The jumping group typically stays as one big group.

Its too bad you won't be able to go because I felt the clinic was excellent.

waremule: We are actively looking for a place in Rappahannock. Are you aware of either land or places that might be suitable for a horse farm. we looking for 20-40 acres. Thanks

[Ata]

I hope you don't mind if I borrow this thread, but I am very curious about foxhunting camps. How common are these and where are most of them? I live in AZ, so I'm not sure if we have them, but I really doubt it. I would love to go to horse amp again! I have such fond memories of it as a child.

[WareMule]

Nope, don't mind! I only know details about the on that turned me down...it's a one-day camp, you ride for most of the morning then there is some lecture stuff, then you ride again in the early afternoon, then there is a showing of hounds or other lecture stuff.

Someone told me that one or two other hunts do camps, too...and I know that one or two private farms offer something similar in our area...Hunter's Rest is one, as I recall. Hopefully she'll post here and chat it up.

[xeroxchick]

Sorry that happened Ware! But I do have to say that I've seen horses just flip out upon first contact with a mule. More than once.

[WareMule]

Yep, I am very sensitive to the issue...have seen one or two horses really shy from the mules; but 99% of them either don't pay a whit of attention or else just express curiosity. I try to be EXTREMELY considerate of people in this regard when I have my mule out with horses, mostly by staying well away from them unless I know they are comfortable with my mule being near. Fortunately, my Emma is a good girl and pretty much just goes where and does what I ask.

[Foxhunt4me]

Better contact the NAAMP and complain!

National Association for the Advancement of Mule People.

Maybe you could get a group of mule riders to picket the hunt camp about this discrimination !

Those Muleaphobics !

[WareMule]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> National Association for the Advancement of Mule People <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TOO FUNNY! I will tell you, as insignificant as it is, this little episode has given me a new appreciation for what prejudice feels like. But at the heart of it, I'm betting it has more to do with liability issues related to the low level of riding skills of participants rather than a particular bias against mules. Still disappointing, though.

[imissvixen]

My son clains my horse looks like a mule but no one has discriminated against us yet. The fact of the matter is that many of those people should be riding mules themselves -- they would be alot safer than on some goofy TB -- like my horse.

I would be angry. Call the Master and tell her/him the situation. DO they not let mules in the field either? Where is the line? Why isn't this part of the camp experience? My mare spooked at white ponies. Are they excluded? My TB is deathly afraid of big rocks. Are they excluded? Also my TB bucks very hard when stung by bees. Will they keep bees out of the camp?

I think they really don't want a mule at their hunt camp. Not fancy enough.

[WareMule]

imissvixen, you make a lot of really good points...I'm betting they are worried about potential liability issues if any of the horses totally freak out at the mule. And...they could have some mental image of me bringing a jug-headed longeared thing that brays at the top of its voice constantly, has burrs in its scrubbrush mane and tail, and needs a bicycle chain bit to keep it under control. Those unfamiliar with mules aren't used to seeing big fancy ones like mine. BTW, it was one of the masters who told me they have the policy of no mules.

[Hunter's Rest]

Hi. Here I am. Yes, I too have been the personal attack-ee of a mule (while I was on horseback.) My steadiest, nicest, most experienced etc. field hunter is totally freaked by mules and donkeys. Emus, no problem. Waving flags in a parade, not an issue. Running deer, nada. Mules? A big dilemma. So WM, I can't say I blame CH. Also, I concur that the groups can get a little hairy. I took a young horse once and only lasted an hour before I cried uncle and took him home. Wayyy too much for a young horse. Green rider on steady eddie is more the ticket there.
Hello to the AZ rider etc. - yes, I offer hunting camps periodically through the year on an as-requested basis. I have a business partner in southern NJ who brings me groups of novice rider ladies for a long weekend in which we practice x-country riding techniques, have our own mock hunt, watch videos, meet and greet and visit with Melvin Poe, meet and greet and learn about the Old Dominion Hounds, then, if all is well, hunt with ODH one day. Hilltopppers mostly, and mostly mounted on my saintly crew, but you can also bring your own horse and use this as a learning camp for the horse too. Best not learning camp for horse AND rider. One greenie per pair is enough ... But this is always the case, my farm or any situation. The 'younger' the relative experience of the rider, the 'older' the relative experience (and I mean REAL LIVE hunting experiences) of the horse should be.
CH camp is very high level, though, and I hope to attend to take photos on Saturday for the paper. Who all is going???

[Whistlejacket]

I think they really don't want a mule at their hunt camp. Not fancy enough.

imissvixen - Based on my experience with the folks at CH, I believe that it is an inappropriate leap to accuse them of exclusion of mules because they consider mules as "not fancy enough".

I would take their stated reason, as described above by WM, at face value. I don't know with whom WM spoke, but the master I know is a straight foward down-to-earth individual.

I agreed with you and others that the policy of trying to "control the environment" for the newbies by excluding mules is a stretch. However, I would take the "no mules policy" as simply an attempt to do so and not a manifestation of predjudice or snobbery against mules as "not fancy enough".

Different people, of course, have different experiences. Is your experience with CH such that is supports your interpretation of their motives?

[Whistlejacket]

An additional perspective on this situation based on the following supposition:

Specifically, I well imagine that (horse) stallions are excluded from the hunt camp.

If that is the case, then it would be based on the reasonable conclusion that relative to, for example "white ponies", as presented above by immissvixen, a stallion (especially an unknown stallion-rider combination) has more potential to cause problems (of a different sort) than a gelding or a mare.

I am sure that many of us, myself included, have hunted along side wonderful, well-behaved stallions that demonstrated no virility-based antics out in the huntfield. Truly wonderful hunting horses.

But would exclusion of an unknown stallion (and its rider) from a hunt camp full of newbie horses and riders be considered prejudicial against stallions? Or would it be considered a good common sense decision based on assessment of relative risks.

Perhaps the owner /rider of the stallion would consider themselves to be a "victim of predujice", as it were.

But an alternative interpretation is that this policy of exclusion of unknown stallions is a reasonable decision based on the increased potential risk of unacceptable virility-based behaviors by stallions, as a whole.

By analogy, the same would apply to the exclusion of mules. A certain percentage of horses have a profound and negative response to mules. This is known. In turn, the decision to exclude mules, would then be based on this known increased chance (again relative to white ponies) of the mere presence of mules causing disruption.

Importantly, this is in the context of newbie horses and newbie riders (NOT experienced hunting horses and members - where is would be expected to handle a variety of situations, mules and otherwise).

If the initial supposition that I proposed is incorrect, then obviously what follows in null.

But perhaps it is of use to look at this mule exclusion policy as one based on assessment of relative risks. Any such decision will have an "arbitrariness" about it, such that the individual who is excluded will feel that they are a "victim of prejudice."

Unfortunately, doing so may result in the inaccurate and unfair assigment of people's motive, when indeed, they have the best of motives - specifically to assure the good results for the group as a whole.

'Nuff said. Thanks.

[WareMule]

Whistlejacket, I can't disagree with any of your points about WHY a group might decide to have an exclusion policy for mules. Even that they would have such a policy doesn't particularly irk me--it is what it is, so be it. But! When there is such a policy (which one could reasonably assume was a well-considered rule and not just a last minute, knee-jerk reaction), then it does irk me when that policy is not stated in public information about the event, nor even in follow-on information sent to potential participants.

You might argue that it is unrealistic to expect an organization to list every disallowed exception because there will always be at least one more than what they remember to list. That's reasonable. But why not simply state something like "For horses and ponies ONLY"?

Looking back, I'm surprised I got a participant packet in the first place if there already was a policy in place about mules--since my note stated that I intended to bring one. Getting my registration form, check, coggins, and release back with no explanatory note really had me wondering. But I recall now that I left a voice message at the organizer's number asking about stabling in which I think I mentioned the mule. So probably they didn't notice my note (note to self: use <span class="ev_code_RED">BOLD RED</span> pen) and the phone call is likely what raised the flag.

Suffice to say that I've taken away from all this a renewed determination to make it very clear on initial inquiries to any group that I have a mule and to be darned sure I get a yay or nay decision before going any further.

I hope everyone who attends the camp has a wonderful time and learns a lot. I have several friends who are going--all of whom talked about boycotting it, but I told them that it'd be silly, if endearing.

Anyway...I guess we've about talked this subject to death, I think I'll go get a quick ride in since it stopped raining. Thanks everyone for your supportive comments and intelligent conversation!

[wateryglen]

Whistlejacket - I'm thinkin' you're a lawyer! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
But anyway, I've hunted with lots of jackasses and most were on horses!
I've hunted with lots of mules and I only recall my horse having a problem with one that brayed loudly at the start of the meet. I honestly think its only the sound of braying that bothers horses. I support your sentiments Ware Mule and think you are handling this with class! Leave it!

[Whistlejacket]

WareMule,

I absolutely agree with you that the information about the camp should have clearly stated any exclusionary policies. That is beyond question.

If one were to give CH the benefit of the doubt (and obviously that is an individual decision whether or not to do so), then perhaps this lack of inclusion of such relevent information could be chalked up as being part of the "learning curve" that any relatively new enterprise experiences. If that is the case, then presumably exclusionary policies will be included in the literature distributed for next year's hunt camp.

And why your application got as far as it did in the process when you clearly stated that you were bringing a mule, well, I haven't a clue. And I would be irked as well.

WareMule, too bad that this is your "introduction to foxhunting", and I hope this ahs not dissuaded you from pursuing foxhunting with your mule. I am a VA-based foxhunter, and I hope to see you and your girl out hunting sometime. To be honest, I really like mules, in the hunt field, out of the hunt field, wherever.

wateryglen - No, I am not a lawyer...but I have been called worse! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[WareMule]

Whistlejacket--I hunted many years ago with Loudoun and was rather involved showing hounds for a couple of years, so fortunately whole deal is not my first introduction to hunting.

And He** NO, NOTHING could dissuade me from hunting my mule, because she is going to be the most awesome ride out there with a couple of seasons under her belt--if her progress, attitude, and demeanor to this point are any kind of indicators!

I hope to see you in the field, too--please do say hi--won't be hard to figure out who I am, LOL! Just look for the ears.

[Foxhunt4me]

Just curious, why would you choose to ride a mule if you are a foxhunter?

How are they with jumping the coops - the folks that I have talked to with mules are not regular jumpers due to the not so smooth jumping style they tell me they have.

Or is it that you just have mules and you want to foxhunt so you dance with the girl you have so to speak....

[WareMule]

I got a mule because I liked them and wanted to try something different after 25 years of horses, mostly OTTBs. It dawned on me eventually that I wasn't temperamentally well-suited to TBs--I just always found myself wanting to fight with them. I had been thinking of a draft cross, but before I got my mind in gear about that, I started researching mules and upon finding that a good many people successfully use them for hunting, trail riding, dressage, and more, I decided, why not a mule! I was fascinated by the ways in which they are mentally different from horses and decided to get a mule just to see what they were like.

Well...it was a match made in heaven when I found Emma. I couldn't have chosen a better first mule--heck, I never had a horse I got on with better than I do this mule. She is affectionate, personable, steady, amiable, and very very attached to me. It's clear she claims me as "her person" and it shows in everything we do together. She is easy to train, loaded with personality, fun to be around, pretty to look at (at least to me), and I love her. Based on her progress so far, I know she is going to be a great field hunter in a couple of seasons. THAT's why I am choosing to hunt a mule...well, THIS mule. She'll never be the fastest galloper and I might have to work hard to get and keep her fit (as she is a draft cross), but that's okay. I'm not particularly ambitious...she suits my style. She's young and I haven't jumped her, but based on how she trots over logs and stuff out on trail, it looks like she'll jump just like a horse...how they jump is more or less a function of how they are taught to jump. If you teach them to jump in stride, they will. But...if you ask them to hop over from a stand-still, they will do that, too--pogo-stick style, LOL!

I dunno if I'd have bought a different mule whether I'd feel the same way about them, but this one I have, I am going to be darned proud of her in the hunt field.

[Whistlejacket]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WareMule:
I was fascinated by the ways in which they are mentally different from horses... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WareMule,

If you (or anyone else) have a chance, could you elaborate on how mules mentally differ from horses. I am very interested in learning more. Thanks!

It sounds as though you and Emma make a great pair, and that you two share a special relationship. Sometimes the right horse (or in this case, mule) and human find each other. It's funny how things often just work out that way. Good for the both of you!

[WareMule]

You hear a lot of "party line" statements about mules vs. horses, i.e., mules are smarter, greater sense of self-preservation, more sure-footed, take less feed, never need shoes, etc. I think the truth of those things varies widely from mule to mule and horse to horse in a comparison.

So...let's see if I can quantify the differences I've observed between the TBs I've had and Emma...and I'll be the first to say that the handling and experiences that all those off the track TBs had compared to my mule's "pet" upbringing probably has had a lot to do with the differences. But...here goes:

The horses (mares and geldings) tended to respond to all people equally--sort of a robotic response. "You're a person, you must be okay." The mule differentiates in a marked way. "Who are YOU?" You have to prove you're trustworthy...but she's sucker for food and scratchies, so that's easy!

The mule will leave her food to come follow me around when I'm inside her paddock. She hangs out with me when I'm cleaning stalls instead of going to eat grass. She follows me like a dog when I'm checking the fence lines. She comes when I call her, and even when I don't. My horses never did any of that. I always wondered if they liked me even a little. With the mule, I KNOW she's fond of me.

The mule is ENORMOUSLY curious and lacks fear for the most part...but I think that is a result of her never having been hurt and always been treated lovingly by people, and a by-product of her age. My poor horses were all off the track and came with many built-in neuroses.

She's definitely got the good donkey feet! Her hooves were practically chipless even after 3 days of 3 hour rides on sandy, gravelly terrain when we went camping earlier this year. She never gave ANY indication that the going bothered her in the least. I hope to never have to shoe her.

She is so careful and sure-footed. I really noticed this on the last Hunt trail ride. There was a creek crossing where both banks were churned up, rocky and and slick. I'd guess the water was 18" deep. The horses in front of me negotiated it the same way: slither-slide down into the water, splash through, plunge up other side. I threw the reins at Em and said "Deal with it." She put her head down, cautiously stepped down the bank, stepped carefully through the water, and walked up the out bank quietly--tho the horses in front had gone on. Now...not that horses couldn't/wouldn't do that too, but this has ALWAYS been her approach from Day 1. I've not had to teach it to her. She is just ..."studious"... when traversing obstacles. I LOVE that aspect of her personality. It might not be so much "Mule" as "Draft" but I love it.

Mules remember. I kid you not, I can teach her something, not practice it for three weeks, and when we revisit it, she not only remembers it, but often does it better than the last time we practiced it. I like to joke that I should just leave some books and videos in her stall so she can read up on things so I don't have to train them.

Mules seem to have a lot more awareness of and ability to use their legs independently...horses seem less able/inclined to do that. My friend's mule blasted a dog with one hind leg from a laying down position. Emma can very accurately scratch the base of her ear with a hind hoof. This characteristic is probably why they can be so sure-footed.

Are there downsides to mules? Well, sure! Their heads are usually kinda clunky--makes it harder to find tack that'll fit. Some of them have narrow, shallow mouths and flat backs that are hard to fit bits and saddles to. You have to learn a brand of patience with them that is hard to explain, but I just call it "mule time." We do things on mule time. It's sort of like with a horse, you might push harder for a result when your training hits a wall; with a mule, you're probably better off just leaving it alone. When you come back to it, you'll likely find they thought about it and will cheefully do it. A lot of people don't like the way mules look...they have the cast of a donkey in many points of conformation and it's not the same rounded musculature we're used to with horses. They have more of a tendency to kick than horses...at each other when arguing, at you when you're annoying them, at dogs, at flies, etc. Not a vicious kick, more like a good shove with the most handy appendage. Emma and I have had a couple of "conversations" about this; she's figured out that swinging a leg at me for ANY reason is going to earn her an uncomfortable punishment.

I personally don't think mules or horses are better--there are good and bad examples of each. At the moment, I have a wonderful mule and so she is what I prefer.

[xeroxchick]

What a nice web site! our descriptions are wonderful. I have to wonder whether Aps and Mules have a lot in common, as some of what you describe applies to my Ap...

[WareMule]

Thanks! Hey--maybe that's why Appaloosa mules are so popular--double or nothing!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Big Belgian]

You just bring that long eared beauty over to a hunt that appreciates her style.....Middleburg...and have a fine ole time hunting that gal.

All those wonderful attributes she possesses have GOT to come from the draft horse in her! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[WareMule]

Big Belgian, I know your horse well and your bias is well-deserved. He's awesome, even if he does have short ears. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif We really gotta get out to hilltop together sometime--it'd be quite a sight, wouldn't it? The Big and Bigger Belgian Club!

[Foxhunt4me]

An Appaloosa Mule - by gosh that would be the most ugly equine on the planet ! What a cruel thing to do.

Well you summed up what I heard about mules pretty well. The seem to suit the temprament of some people very well.

I have had my fill of OTTB's and hot horses myself.

Many things that you like about your mule are in some of our horses I think that you are right about the upbringing - if you raise a horse correctly and with a good relationship they will have a good way of dealing with humans. I dont think any of my horses woudl ever leave a feed bucket to come and see me but they will stop grazing and come over and rob my tools and pick my pockets when I am in the field.

I know that those mules are strong and will go a long way - I heard around here the rural mail carriers preferred mules to horses.

[WareMule]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> An Appaloosa Mule - by gosh that would be the most ugly equine on the planet ! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They are very popular, though...I've seen more App mules than just about any other kind used by trail riders and campers.

Mules are unbelievably strong--especially when you have an 1800 lb one on your foot and can't get him to move!!!

[imissvixen]

My theory is that the master at CH has no statistical support for the contention that mules present more risk for her campers than other things they may encounter. I suspect that the decision is based on a very narrow data sample and is hardly conclusive. Just because it is your experience doesn't mean it is true. I currently feel that all TBs are going to buck their riders off and break their arms or backs based on the experience I have had. But if we did a longitudinal study of all TB riding experience of say 30 to 50 year intermediate female foxhunters over the past 20 years we may find that my experience is not the norm.

[WareMule]

I think you might be onto something, imissvixen...one of my friends suggested that it was probably one of the horses to be ridden by whomever was going to work with the hilltoppers that didn't like mules, LOL!

[creseida]

I find it is more a lack of education about mules than anything else that allows this prejudice to endure. (sound familiar?)

Mules can outjump a horse anyday. Have any of you non-mule folk ever been to a mule-jumping contest? This is where the mules are jumped in-hand over obstacles that are 4+ feet high...from almost a stand still....with a LEAD ROPE not a longe line. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

They are thoughtful and careful and deliberate in their actions (hence their "stubborn" reputation as they take their time assessing a situation).

I hear this talk of "mules spooking horses". Well, horses can be spooked by a number of things. Cattle, deer, wild turkey, snakes... all of which may be encountered routinely in the hunt field...may spook a horse. Heck, even other horses can spook horses. There are two at the barn I'm at now that will turn tail and flee if another horse is heading towards them. Even if they *know* the horse approaching them.
The funniest thing I ever saw though, was the most bomb-proof horse we have in the barn; you know the type, the uber-safe lesson horse who won't spook because it uses too much energy? Ours lost his mind the first time he saw The Spotty Thing (tm.) aka The New Appy Gelding. He stopped, planted his feet, let out a snort, and spun around (albeit slowly) and tried to head for the barn (with 9 year old on his back). He would not walk anywhere NEAR The Spotty Thing(tm). I had to drag him past the paddock the Appy was in, and as soon as he was past, he suddenly went into Aerobic Power Walk Mode. Took 2 days for him to get over his fear of The Spotty Thing (tm). Now, he could care less. FWIW, not one of the other horses took a second glance at the new App.

[Kryswyn]

I asked one of Jt-MFH of Casanova about the "no mules at camp" and was told the same "spook the horses" thang, and when I asked, "but isn't that what camp is for, learning about things the novice horse would see in the field?" I was assured that NO horse in the Casanova field would ever see a mule hunting because mules are not allowed in the Casanova hunt field! WTF? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

WareMule it sounds like you'll be MUCH happier at Middleburg, although the Jt-MFH went on to say that mules were not permitted in MOST VA hunt fields. Now she should know whereof she speaks, but for many of the reasons Creseida cited, I hope she's wrong!

[WareMule]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> This is where the mules are jumped in-hand over obstacles that are 4+ feet high...from almost a stand still....with a LEAD ROPE not a longe line. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

From what I've read, mules have much denser, hence stronger, muscle fibers inherited from their donkey parent. That's why they are so amazingly powerful and able to jump so well. But that said, I have seen a draft cross horse jump a 5' vertical fence from a standstill cuz she wanted to graze somewhere else--and then jump right back in when she decided to come back into her own paddock. Pretty awesome to watch that! A pain to have as a boarder, no doubt!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> because mules are not allowed in the Casanova hunt field!...the Jt-MFH went on to say that mules were not permitted in MOST VA hunt fields <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, gee, darn, guess we won't be hunting with Casanova. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif As far as "not permitted," well...I've gotten permission to come hilltopping with two hunts, personal invitations (some from folks who serve as staff) to hunt my mule with four others, and heard at least a dozen anectdotes about mules successfully participating in Virginia Hunts, with at least a couple having been ridden by masters or whippers-in.

Kryswyn, it's actually Thornton Hill Hounds with which I plan to hunt. I've been spending some time helping at the kennels, and have taken Em over there to give her some hound familiarization at the Huntsman's invitation. I like the folks I've met there, and while some have wondered aloud how horses will react to a mule in the Hunt field, they seem perfectly okay with the idea of it. I'll just continue slowly, carefully, and courteously introducing Em to the hunt and them to her; I've no doubt by next season she won't even get a second glance. Especially because I intend for her to be so well behaved as to be practically invisible.

BTW, here's (http://www.tuliphillemma.com/images/ODS2004_02.jpg) a pic of us from last Saturday's Old Dominion Draft Horse and Mule Show in Warrenton--we took a second place in the Longears Walk/Trot Pleasure class (her first under saddle class ever) and a first in a mule halter class. She was such a good girl all day long!

[Falstaff]

I like mules and wouldn't mind hunting with them - but one thing you must remember about the CH camp (as well as other camps) - most, if not all, the folks attending the camps have not been out of an arena, much less ridden in a large group.

It's an introduction to foxhunting: not mules, llamas, or emu's.

It's a great camp and I would recommend it to folks interested in learning about foxhunting.

It might interest you to know that many hunts do not allow stallions, either. I've known beautifully behaved stallions that I would much prefer to hunt with but...

It's the Master's perogative. Foxhunters are out to hunt the fox - it's not a trail ride or some sort of democratic society. That's not snobbery - its the structure and tradition of the hunting club.

I suspect mules will be better received in the future - just keep setting a good example. Draft crosses used to be looked down upon too. Still are in some cases....

[WareMule]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> most, if not all, the folks attending the camps have not been out of an arena, much less ridden in a large group...introduction to foxhunting: not mules, llamas, or emu's <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Certainly no argument on my part about why or even that Casanova has a policy to not allow mules...I support their right to take that position. Wish I'd known in advance, but live and learn. I do wonder how many of those "never been out of the ring" riders will attempt hunting this year and what the outcome will be--even without a mule, llama, emu, or other scary thing in sight.

[Falstaff]

I must confess to being one of those riders who went to the camp - fell in love - and started hunting. I used to event (BN/N) but hadn't done much in a couple of years. I've used more dressage in the hunt field than I ever did in the arena.

From what I've seen - most of the folks get a taste of it and either find their niche or run screaming back to their previous sport. Not much in the middle.

For what it's worth - I don't care what kind of equine you hunt with as long as it hunts. Hope to see you in the field one of these days.

[gothedistance]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by WareMule:
[QUOTE] I do wonder how many of those "never been out of the ring" riders will attempt hunting this year and what the outcome will be--even without a mule, llama, emu, or other scary thing in sight. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I think a fair number will end up in the hunt field, and really enjoy the sport. I audited the camp (unfortunately on foot since I was still "laid up" from a crashing fall two weeks prior) and I was very impressed by the structure and how closely the staff "approximated" what a person could expect at a hunt -- either hilltopping, and over fences. I spent most of my time watching the hilltopper groups, principally the one with my "never-been-hunting-before-but-would-like-to-try-it" friend on her novice Irish Draft. The instructors for her group touched on practically everything a novice would need to know in the hunt field in order to feel comfortable and informed --at least at the rudimentary stage.

And everyone that I talked to there --and I spoke to a LOT of people-- were most definitely looking forward to hunting this fall. I mean -- why else would they be there if this was not their end goal??

I think with the camp offering a "taste" of what elements of a hunt would feel like, those that attended will certainly feel more knowledgeable (and hopefully comfortable) than the uninitiated novice as to what to expect and how to ride with the field when the huntsman lifts horn to lips and the hounds all hark to the sound.

The rest is learned like anything else -- time in the saddle and tailoring your riding education to fit your chosen sport.

[WareMule]

Well, Falstaff, welcome to the sport! Good to have more converts. Hope to see you too--maybe come cap with THH some day!

Conversely, I would LOVE to do some horse trials with Emma next year after we start over fences work. I have done BN/N with horses in the past and really enjoy the technicalities of the sport. Considering how popular CT is around here and the fact that USEA technically doesn't permit mules at sanctioned HTs, I fear I might not have much of a chance getting into an actual HT but maybe would have better luck with combined tests...I did one down at Lexington one year that had dressage and cross country. It was a blast.

I agree, the true meaning of dressage doesn't come to light doing endless 20m circles in an arena...it's when you can keep your equine solidly between seat, leg, and hand when it doesn't wanna be there that it really counts!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> gothedistance said: why else would they be there if this was not their end goal...I was very impressed by the structure and how closely the staff "approximated" what a person could expect at a hunt -- either hilltopping <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

True...all the same reasons I'm sorry I couldn't attend! I bet your friend is excited about hunting, eh?!

[justhanginon]

We have two mules down the road from our farm, absolutely the cutest,sweetest guys ever. My daughter rides a little Welsh pony and whenever we go by the mules they always come to the fence to "check things out". My daughter's pony is completely and totally terrified of them and he is NOT a spooky pony. Why is that ? One recent day the mules had on those big funky fly masks - I thought the pony was going to just keel over and die of a heart attack, it was hysterical !

[WareMule]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> and he is NOT a spooky pony. Why is that ? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm convinced that the horses/ponies which do react strongly to mules do so because the mules a) smell quite different and b) have an unfamiliar silhouette caused by the longer ears. Those fly masks, though...we use those and I gotta admit, they're enough to scare anything not used to seeing them, LOL!

Wonder what the pony would do if he could meet the mules nose-to-nose over the fence while on a lead-line. Might be worth trying to convince him the mules are nothing to fear, if it would result in him being better behaved when your daughter rode him by them.

[justhanginon]

That's a good idea, I'll have to do it next time I think of it. I'll report back to you, should be interesting, if nothing else. My mare (who is a spooky headcase) doesn't pay much attention to them anymore so maybe the pony will get that way if we go about it right.

[Kryswyn]

Carole, your Emma is LOFFLY! I can see why she won! I love the folks at THH, and their country is made for the surefooted mule! I'm sure you'll have a great season! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[wateryglen]

Whoa! News Flash from the NAAMP (National Association for the Advancement of Mule People!)
"A historical perspective to this issue ought to be considered also. In the south and especially in Virginia,it is a tradition to ride mules when out hunting. Specifically hunting racoons (known as Coon Huntin") and deer hunting. Both usually occur in the evening and continue after sunset. Mules were considered sure footed and could jump any obstacle ie: barbwire fencing. They could handle western saddles (most used in coon/deer hunting and bear hunting)and still jump. Their natural tendencies go well with night riding and the rowdiness that frequently occurs."
Might I add that on many poorer farms a fine riding horse was not affordable and useable as he had to pull a carriage, plow and go hunting. They had to be "easy keepers". I recall older hunt members telling me that many of the farmers hunts in Va. used draft cross and mules to foxhunt,coon/deer/bear hunt. This was apparently big in the 30"s & 40's. I am saying that mules are a foxhunting tradition in Va. and phooey to those who might think otherwise!!
I trailrode with Carole/Emma this morning and I say the girl can hunt. No problemo! Solid.
Kick on and enjoy it! And as Paris Hilton would say....Loves it!

[WareMule]

Thanks, wateryglen and Kryswyn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Yes...it's that renowned jumping ability of mules that has me wondering if I'll be able to stay with her when my big beast launches herself over a tricky coop, LOL! But I don't have to worry about that til next year fortunately.

As far as night hunting...in between the moonshine, guns, and good ole boy shenanigans, it's probably the sensible mules that kept them fellers from breakin their fool necks most of the time! Interesting perspective on mules, fer sure.

Had a GREAT time on our ride yesterday. What SUPERB riding in your neck of the woods. Get my room ready, I'm movin in!

[Falstaff]

Actually, that sounds like more fun than foxhunting!

I was talking about your plight to a friend yesterday (nothing bad, I assure you) and she suggested just that. Get a rifle scabbard, jug holder and go huntin'.

Sounds great.

[WareMule]

Falstaff, with a whole JUG of libation hanging off my saddle instead of a measly little flask, I bet I'd be one of the most popular girls in the Hunt, LOL! Tooooo funny...your description has me chuckling!

[ccoronios]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>It's an introduction to foxhunting: not mules, llamas, or emu's. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Falstaff, I MUST ask - because I find this one of the most common spelling errors in our language, stemming from lack of understanding the purpose of '. Why did you pluralize the first two correctly and the last incorrectly?

[J Swan]

Aha - you got me. I know better. Really.

I could say I'm merely the unfortunate product of our public school system, or that my parents ignored me, or that I was influnced by peer pressure to not appear "too smart".

However, the truth is that since I use a computer so much, I've grown to rely on the spelling and grammar check instead of my brain.

That's my story and I'm sticking to it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

(I was J Swan for years but COTH ate my password so I changed my username to Falstaff until I got it fixed by Erin).

[ccoronios]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I'm convinced that the horses/ponies which do react strongly to mules do so because the mules a) smell quite different and b) have an unfamiliar silhouette <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

To say NOTHING of sounds. My nationally acclaimed Ap trail horse absoluted REFUSED to accept Paso Finos as equines - and the fact that they wore extremely convincing costumes and perfume only made the evil creatures they obviously were MORE frightening. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
Pasos and round bales were his main frights. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[ccoronios]

J Swan/Falstaff - perfectly logical explanation. Not perfectly acceptable to the former English teacher in me, but what the heck!? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I fear that your explanation is the norm for most of this country's population these days.

[J Swan]

Alas - too true. Especially these darn kids. No spelling ability.

(Showing my age now - will soon start calling anyone under 30 a "whippersnapper")

[WareMule]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> To say NOTHING of sounds. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know, I always forget about that one because Em is quiet and almost never brays! But yeah, can see how a loud mule might be a little freaky to some horses.