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gold2012
Jan. 25, 2012, 07:02 PM
Okay, so.....

WOW. Colleen, sorry. REALLY sorry. I think we need to revamp this just a bit. I think, A: base it at least partially on need. There are people on this list, who frankly, don't need the money that has been donated to get all the help they need. Some are already getting it anyway.

B: We need some sorta point system. How can we give it to someone who really isn't all that proven, nothing personal against those people, more power to them, and pass by those who have proven themselves?

It's very irritating....seeing politics in play here. It really feels like that is what most of it is.

wookie
Jan. 25, 2012, 07:08 PM
how do they decide who gets them? is it only the olympic potentials who get them? i ask because some of these people don't really need the grants do they? ie...will coleman,,,phillip dutton, the o'conners.....

gold2012
Jan. 25, 2012, 07:27 PM
I don't mind that we give our Olympic hopefuls grants. Really. I think the part that bothers me is this:

There are people on that list that have sponsors, mega sponsors, owners, mega owners. They have thier own money. Every year, when we do our membership renewals, they ask for funds to be donated. I am not rich, and we survive by doing a LOT on our own. But, I donate a bit. It won't be a tax write-off. It's just to help do a bit for our team.

But it irks me, I think people, corporations donate to HELP those who can't get there without help. There are names that are on that list, that have PLENTY of help, and people left off, that maybe, with help, would do a great job....We need to spread out and give to LOTS of people. Not an elite few, who probably don't need it. I feel like my donation is a donation to the rich. I won't donate again. Period.

FlightCheck
Jan. 25, 2012, 08:32 PM
what she said

JP60
Jan. 25, 2012, 08:41 PM
What is this training grant for? When I read the short blurb on the USEA site it talks about high performance, US Eventing team folks training for the Olympics and those folks I know fit the bill and are on the list.

Now maybe some of these folks are getting sponsor money and such, but they still have to work for it, they still have to do clinics, they still have to train people to make money and that takes away from their time and ability to train themselves for the Olympics. Were someone to hand me $$$ to train for a big show so I would not have to work, even though I make good $$$ I'd say thank you and start training.

If this helps those on that list do better so Team USA is well represented at the Olympics, I only ask that they truly make the grant worth it and make us proud when they ride in England.

(Now about that grant money for up and comers in the over 50 class, ready to break out into the big world...I'm ready) :lol:

Ownedbyhim
Jan. 25, 2012, 08:51 PM
Unless you have the power to be on the high performance list, you aren't considered to be eligible for this round of travel grants. After hearing what folks have to do in terms of shutting down their personal businesses in order to try to make a team in this country...don't know that I would advise it. Ride and show and enjoy your horses at every level and let the power/money mongers have their own club..soon enough they won't have anybody to play with but themselves! The FEI took away the soul of our sport when the long format was deleted so play where you want and don't mortgage your soul to the USEF. I think your chances of being helped by the grants are only slightly better then winning the lottery. Find your own path and holler "heads up" when someone or something becomes an obstacle in your way. Eyes up,chin tucked and kick on. That is still free! :D

gold2012
Jan. 25, 2012, 09:12 PM
I know that they give up a lot of business....I guess. I am not as sure about that as you guys are. I don't see it down here. BUT, who knows, maybe. I just know that several of those people have more then just a "little" sponsorship.

It bother's me that others are left OFF the list. My daughter took one lesson with a REALLY BIG name dressage person. Her dressage ability, from one simple exercise, doubled. Not an exageration. It was the first time she had been told to do that. And she has had a sampling of quite a few of the big name people, to illustrate how access and money can help someone. Those people, on that list, get those lessons frequently. Not one time, not once in a while. There are people not on that list, with maybe just a bit more access to the top names, a bit more money, might go and win gold for us.

Our system is broken. And I agree, when they did away with the long format, it made it much easier to do it with money. Not always a bad thing, but not a good thing either. I am not entirely sure we are sending our best, or have...for a long time.

atheventer85
Jan. 25, 2012, 09:14 PM
Agreed. 90%, not a few people on this list, are VERY well off financially, and really don't need the grants. As we all know, a lot of this money will be used on dressage and show jumping lessons with pros in those disciplines. I realize that funding will only be provided to those who have Olympic potential, but what about those with potential that are broke? I won't say any names on either side, but I really do hope that the grant process for the rest of the season is better than, and plays less favorites than this.... What irks me more than anything is that one combination on this list has yet to even run a horse trial much less a qualifier for the Olympics....

retreadeventer
Jan. 25, 2012, 11:08 PM
If you are responsible for putting together a team that is to represent the United States, in international competition, and someone gives you a potful of money to help get your team candidates get BETTER so you can put up a useful showing (let alone MEDAL), then what do you do?

You sit down, go over the list of candidates, and see what you have. You know that your potential team riders have holes in their preparation. You've seen it -- everyone has seen it. There are some old riders with new horses that no one has any idea will work out and there are new young riders with great horses that look pretty good. There are a lot of others -- not so good at the dressage but fabulous jumpers. There are some that can be counted on to impress the judges but you have real questions about whether they can make it around London's XC course. And always, at the end of it, soundness. What horses coming out of what barns stay sound? What horses won't last?

You put all of these concerns into a Pandora's Box and come up with a list. You take the most likely candidates and try to make them more of a sure thing with those grants. It's not about whose rich and has sponsors. It's about the future, the team, the likelihood of medals for our country. You are looking into a crystal ball and doing the best you can for America. You know that other countries that we are competing against have government funding. They don't rely on donations and don't have to explain anything.

How does anyone possibly get to criticize this process until you've taken a really hard look at the other side?

I'm jealous too about the money and sponsors and expensive horses. Who would not be on this board?

But that is misplaced concern. Complaining about the training grants is not going to get my country a good showing and possibly a medal at the Olympics. The sponsors and funding follow the good riders because they are good enough; the grant money does the same. We are making the best we have better so that we can compete favorably; it's not about spreading it around in some sort of "fairness" policy.

gold2012
Jan. 25, 2012, 11:59 PM
I am sorry, retread, but I respectfully disagree. I agree that, the funds are to be used to better our team. I disagree, perhaps because I don't understand, with the people they chose to give it to.

These funds are to be used for OLYMPIC TEAM RIDERS. Got that, check. BUT....

First, these funds are being spent on teams that do not have a record together. I am sure, maybe they will eventually get there, but for now, it's anyone's guess if they will, or if they won't.

Second, exactly what has CR done to be excluded? Horse isn't sound enough? I know some of these horses, and guess what, half of them have a few soundness issues.

Tnird, if someone has the ability to go purchase 6, SIX, upper level event horses, pay for them to be shipped to the US, put in quarentine, SHOW them...they probably have the funds to ship a horse anywhere in the world they want to go for a show, pay for that show, and are already training with the tops in the world now...

I was told by someone in the selection process...they look for people who can mostly fund thier own way. OKay, I can understand the reasoning there. It's pretty expensive to get there....BUT, use funds, that companies give, and use it responsibly. I disagree that this is responsible. Each person on that list has something to bring the table....got it...BUT several of them have resources outside mere mortals....lets use some of that money on pairs that ARE competing, DOING well, and could very well GIVE us that gold, ESPECIALLY if they had some of these funds, and opportunities.


I want a good showing at the olympics too. I get that this money is for the olympic team. I really do. HOWEVER, there are some people that have been left OFF this list, that SHOULD be on it.

KateWooten
Jan. 26, 2012, 08:47 AM
Who ?

CiegoStar
Jan. 26, 2012, 09:04 AM
Guys, it's $2k per rider. That's not going to make or break it for anyone on this list.

gold2012
Jan. 26, 2012, 09:12 AM
Guys, it's $2k per rider. That's not going to make or break it for anyone on this list.

I wondered how much it was. WOW, so, even though I don't agree with all these people getting it, I must say, it sure is a drop in the proverbial bucket. But it is something anyway.

You know, things like this make me wonder this.

If this process was more open, and fair, I would wonder if it wouldn't HELP fund this team better. I dont think I am alone in not wanting to donate more, if it is just going to go to people who already have tons of available funds.

We recently got a grant from a wonderful woman, and it REALLY helps. On the whole year scheme of things, it will actually make it possible to get lessons. I suspect that 2k, while a drop in a bucket, would really help Colleen, or Nate, or any of the others, that with a bit more help, might make a better showing.

sunnycher
Jan. 26, 2012, 09:39 AM
It would be difficult to donate money to a system that makes grants available to people in ways that seem unfair.

And many people donating a bit can and would make a difference. Isn't there an organization that you can donate in a rider's name? If so, maybe we should give to those we find more deserving. If it truly 'is' about having resources available to 'make a better showing'. But, somehow, I'm not sure it isn't more political than that....

faybe
Jan. 26, 2012, 09:45 AM
It would be difficult to donate money to a system that makes grants available to people in ways that seem unfair.

And many people donating a bit can and would make a difference. Isn't there an organization that you can donate in a rider's name? If so, maybe we should give to those we find more deserving. If it truly 'is' about having resources available to 'make a better showing'. But, somehow, I'm not sure it isn't more political than that....

Check out the American Horse Trials Foundation. While they can't earmark money for a specific rider, if you know a rider on their list (http://ahtf3day.org/riders_area.html)call and ask them for more information on how your donation can make a difference for them.

ACMEeventing
Jan. 26, 2012, 11:36 AM
If you are responsible for putting together a team that is to represent the United States, in international competition, and someone gives you a potful of money to help get your team candidates get BETTER so you can put up a useful showing (let alone MEDAL), then what do you do?

You sit down, go over the list of candidates, and see what you have. You know that your potential team riders have holes in their preparation. You've seen it -- everyone has seen it. There are some old riders with new horses that no one has any idea will work out and there are new young riders with great horses that look pretty good. There are a lot of others -- not so good at the dressage but fabulous jumpers. There are some that can be counted on to impress the judges but you have real questions about whether they can make it around London's XC course. And always, at the end of it, soundness. What horses coming out of what barns stay sound? What horses won't last?

You put all of these concerns into a Pandora's Box and come up with a list. You take the most likely candidates and try to make them more of a sure thing with those grants. It's not about whose rich and has sponsors. It's about the future, the team, the likelihood of medals for our country. You are looking into a crystal ball and doing the best you can for America. You know that other countries that we are competing against have government funding. They don't rely on donations and don't have to explain anything.

How does anyone possibly get to criticize this process until you've taken a really hard look at the other side?

I'm jealous too about the money and sponsors and expensive horses. Who would not be on this board?

But that is misplaced concern. Complaining about the training grants is not going to get my country a good showing and possibly a medal at the Olympics. The sponsors and funding follow the good riders because they are good enough; the grant money does the same. We are making the best we have better so that we can compete favorably; it's not about spreading it around in some sort of "fairness" policy.

Well said.

And Gold, what exactly are you mad about (or are you just mad)? That your preferred riders are not on the list, that some folks on the list are "too rich", that your donation didn't go where you wanted, or that riders with big corporate sponsors should be cut off from any additional help?

Sorry, but this topic has been beaten beyond recognition.

flutie1
Jan. 26, 2012, 11:53 AM
How one deals with all this is a purely personal issue. I enjoyed donating to Colleen's Badminton fund through the AHTF and attaching a note explaining what I had done to the USET donation request and sending it back to them. Not a hell of a lot of money, but every dollar helps - and to paraphrase the commercial, "satisfaction from screwing with the system - priceless!"

luvmycabanaboy
Jan. 26, 2012, 11:55 AM
Took a clinic with Jimmy Wofford last weekend. In the coffee talk, someone asked his thoughts on Colleen, his student. He said the horse was "unconventional" (his word not mine) and that's why the selectors don't like him.

However, Jimmy was obviously beyond excited that he got to see the horse for their upcoming Wednesday morning lesson. It was pretty awesome to see a coach of his caliber be SOO excited about teaching a lesson.

subk
Jan. 26, 2012, 12:01 PM
There are people on this list, who frankly, don't need the money that has been donated to get all the help they need. Some are already getting it anyway.
I find this offensive. Assuming you know the personal balance sheet of people or their private financial arrangements with sponsors is really over the top. Last I check no one gets rich being a professional rider. The truth is people like Dutton, Martin and even the O'Connors are in all likelihood middle of the road in terms a real income and personal wealth. Do they have wealthy sponsors? Sure. But they HAVE sponsors in the first place because they have proven they can get results for them. The USET has to be results oriented or they won't be able to fundraise. It's the very fact they have ignored Colleen Rutledge's results that has people so mad! Personally I think that all lists and grants should be merit based and only the actual selection of the team should be subjective.

gold2012 it's an expensive sport, people with access to money will always have an advantage--that's true for just about any sport in existence. You really need to accept it and get over it. If you want to play, suck it up and play, but stop whining about it.

CiegoStar
Jan. 26, 2012, 12:20 PM
The truth is people like Dutton, Martin and even the O'Connors are in all likelihood middle of the road in terms a real income and personal wealth.

Not to mention they work their @sses off all day, every day. No one here is floating along toward a gold medal.

JER
Jan. 26, 2012, 12:27 PM
He said the horse was "unconventional" (his word not mine) and that's why the selectors don't like him.

The USEF definition of 'unconventional': goes clear around XC without any excuses.

Or maybe it's a euphemism for 'coached by Jim Wofford.'

subk
Jan. 26, 2012, 12:32 PM
How one deals with all this is a purely personal issue. I enjoyed donating to Colleen's Badminton fund through the AHTF and attaching a note explaining what I had done to the USET donation request and sending it back to them.
Flutie you have inspired me!

I just sent a Pay Pal donation to Colleen, printed my email receipt and mailed it to the USET in the postage paid return envelope that just came with their request for a donation.

That was some seriously fun spending.

flutie1
Jan. 26, 2012, 04:50 PM
The USEF definition of 'unconventional': goes clear around XC without any excuses.

Or maybe it's a euphemism for 'coached by Jim Wofford.'

:-)

snoopy
Jan. 26, 2012, 05:26 PM
:yes:

to the above two posts.

JER
Jan. 26, 2012, 05:33 PM
This is the time for everyone who cares about eventing to remember the wise words of the great American hero, Corky St. Clair.

He didn't get his grant money. But he didn't take it lying down.

Corky St. Clair's speech to USEF selectors
(http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=De6AkndwRpM)
:)

gold2012
Jan. 26, 2012, 06:02 PM
I too just sent off money to Colleen, and I have no stake what-so-ever in the naming of these particular riders. There are riders who might have done something with a bit of a grant.

I too, am going to quit check-marking the box to donate, and instead send it out to whomever I feel would be well represented through ATHF.

As for my being mad or dealing with it. I have nothing to be mad about, or deal with. We are not in that arena, but I do find it bothersome that people who have the funds already, and there are a few on there who do, receive even more.

JER....have to say, I LOVE your definition of unconventional!

SueCoo2
Jan. 26, 2012, 06:34 PM
Took a clinic with Jimmy Wofford last weekend. In the coffee talk, someone asked his thoughts on Colleen, his student. He said the horse was "unconventional" (his word not mine) and that's why the selectors don't like him.

However, Jimmy was obviously beyond excited that he got to see the horse for their upcoming Wednesday morning lesson. It was pretty awesome to see a coach of his caliber be SOO excited about teaching a lesson.

That was me! :D

kt-rose
Jan. 26, 2012, 09:01 PM
Guys, it's $2k per rider. That's not going to make or break it for anyone on this list.

THIS!! In the scheme of bringing along an upper level horse, this doesn't pay for supplements for goodness sake. Won't make a difference to those who do have money or those who don't...

gold2012
Jan. 26, 2012, 09:51 PM
THIS!! In the scheme of bringing along an upper level horse, this doesn't pay for supplements for goodness sake. Won't make a difference to those who do have money or those who don't...

Not to stir the pot, but:

2K=

5 entries paid for or
4 to 5 tons of hay or
15 lessons with Linda Zang or
A saddle that fits your horse or
enough feed to feed our horses for 2.5 months or

It's not much to someone who has a ton of money, but it is a lot for someone who doesn't. LOL. Just saying.

tuppysmom
Jan. 26, 2012, 10:04 PM
2K would pay for a whole season of eventing for our DD. So yes, 2k makes a difference.

kt-rose
Jan. 28, 2012, 09:34 AM
Gold2012 -- Your point about 15 lessons with Linda Zang is well taken! That would make a difference to anyone!! :) But I guess my point was, right or wrong, that it does seem to me to be not enough money to begrudge someone their spot on the list over. I have a homebred a pro is bringing along for me. She is in Ocala and going on to Aiken to begin competing. Frankly, even at this early stage of her career, 2K doesn't even make a dent in what it costs to develop her well...and will make even less difference as she moves up. So from my perspective it sure doesn't seem super useful . Perhaps if my girl lived at home and I was riding her myself I could stretch 2K further. Perhaps it is the difference between an owner's perspective and that of a rider fighting to get a chance but it still doesn't seem to me that available funds determines this list, or should but that is a whole different topic ;) :)...

brianhr
Jan. 28, 2012, 09:53 AM
I can tell you I am leading all the fundraisers for Colleens trip to Badminton and I would have gladly taken 2000 to add to the fund. Colleen already knew she was'nt going to get a grant. She is'nt on a list and thats who gets the grants but she is'nt worried about it she has her plan and she is sticking to it. Whatever happens happens and she is just preparing to head to Aiken next week for the month and she is ready to compete.

whicker
Jan. 28, 2012, 10:41 AM
Remember what we cothers did for Peter Atkins? We can help the same way for Colleen. Every little bit makes a difference. Plus, the encouragement always is gratefully received.

I've started taking lessons with Colleen. She is a terrific teacher! She has an excellent eye and knowledge in many areas. She is positive. Puzzles are fun for her solve.

For example, my Trak mare has been out of work for 12 weeks due to an abscess. When I pulled her front legs forward to make sure the girth didn't chafe her, Colleen showed me how to hold the leg a bit longer to help her stretch.

After I mounted, Wren was feeling tight. I thought that she wasn't bringing up her hind legs, so I started doing the exercises to release them. Colleen explained that there wasn't a place for the hind legs to go, until Wren could release her shoulders.

She showed me an exercise to help Wren. I tried it, and could feel the start of a change. When Wren would get a bit of movement, she would lick and chew. I could feel the telescope start to lengthen.

I asked Colleen to sit on Wren, so I could see how to do the exercise better. Wren is very sensitive and Colleen was quite tactful as she explained to Wren what she wanted. Wren tried, and the shoulder released, giving a dramatic fluid huge step. Wren gave licks, chews and big yawns. She looked like a completely different horse, relaxed, happy and graceful.

I have been practicing the exercise since, and now Wren looks forward to going out for ride. I feel like we have had a major break through.

retreadeventer
Jan. 28, 2012, 12:21 PM
What was the exercise?

barnworkbeatshousework
Jan. 28, 2012, 04:32 PM
Whicker: so happy to hear it, that is AWESOME! I agree, a little bit from everyone can go a long way in all forms of support, monetarily, or otherwise.

gold2012
Jan. 28, 2012, 07:04 PM
Gold2012 -- Your point about 15 lessons with Linda Zang is well taken! That would make a difference to anyone!! :) But I guess my point was, right or wrong, that it does seem to me to be not enough money to begrudge someone their spot on the list over. I have a homebred a pro is bringing along for me. She is in Ocala and going on to Aiken to begin competing. Frankly, even at this early stage of her career, 2K doesn't even make a dent in what it costs to develop her well...and will make even less difference as she moves up. So from my perspective it sure doesn't seem super useful . Perhaps if my girl lived at home and I was riding her myself I could stretch 2K further. Perhaps it is the difference between an owner's perspective and that of a rider fighting to get a chance but it still doesn't seem to me that available funds determines this list, or should but that is a whole different topic ;) :)...

LOL...one lesson with Linda Zang makes a huge differance. Though you wouldn't know it by our score at Rocking Horse this weekend. We own all our horses, and they live at home, and we really tightly budget EVERYTHING. So for us, 2k is a lot. I do agree that 2k for that list is probably not much....and probably won't make or break any of them. And since it is only available for THAT list, then I guess it's probably all a mute point.

I do feel CR should recieve some money from USEF/USEA. I talked with many people at RH this weekend, and there are a lot of people like us, we don't really have a big name, so getting clients here is nearly impossible, so that avenue to obtain funds is tight. It's very frustrating, when you know that 2k won't matter much to them, but could make a BIG differance to your rider, or a rider who has such great potential, but so little in backers.

Anyway, I love Linda....now there is truly an instructor...born to teach!