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ALF
Feb. 7, 2004, 08:50 PM
I'll make this as candid and direct as I possibly can. I can't argue with Adjust My Style's decision to close her ill-fated GM thread, since it had degenerated into a war of words between me and a handful of would-be psychophants, and I was obviously going to prevail.

Still, I feel it's important to provide an opportunity for everyone to respond to any of the points I made, especially since several posters made it clear they have personal feelings at stake here. Therefore, I am starting a new thread.

This is the place to make yourself heard if you can articulate a coherent rebuttal to any of the following points:

1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before

2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past

3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense

5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring.

Those of you who would rather continue your meagre attempts to harrass me are invited to post here:unmoderated board (http://pub179.ezboard.com/bthetackroom17816) where you will find many knowledgeable people.

Those of you who want to harrass Exitpoint will have no choice but to attend a horse show. It's a big step, but you can do it.

Thanks

ALF
Feb. 7, 2004, 08:50 PM
I'll make this as candid and direct as I possibly can. I can't argue with Adjust My Style's decision to close her ill-fated GM thread, since it had degenerated into a war of words between me and a handful of would-be psychophants, and I was obviously going to prevail.

Still, I feel it's important to provide an opportunity for everyone to respond to any of the points I made, especially since several posters made it clear they have personal feelings at stake here. Therefore, I am starting a new thread.

This is the place to make yourself heard if you can articulate a coherent rebuttal to any of the following points:

1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before

2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past

3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense

5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring.

Those of you who would rather continue your meagre attempts to harrass me are invited to post here:unmoderated board (http://pub179.ezboard.com/bthetackroom17816) where you will find many knowledgeable people.

Those of you who want to harrass Exitpoint will have no choice but to attend a horse show. It's a big step, but you can do it.

Thanks

SBT
Feb. 7, 2004, 09:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:

3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The sport may have changed, but the basics do not. Simply because we have bendy stirrup irons now doesn't mean we no longer need a flexible ankle. Because riders can't get out of the ring, for whatever reason, doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to ride forward. Just because A/A's can't put in the saddle time to achieve a secure leg doesn't mean a "praying mantis" position should be excused. Just because we have become a politically-correct society doesn't mean a trainer shouldn't encourage fitness in his students. And, finally, you'll find that EVERYTHING that can/will go wrong in riding, be it with the horse, rider, or both, all boils down to BASICS. The very best trainers, like GM, know that.

Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise

MistyBlue
Feb. 7, 2004, 09:18 PM
Okay, I'm being very serious here..."psychophant" is not a word. Sycophant is. Not with a "P", it has nothing to do with the root word 'Psycho' shortened from "Psychosis" and being related to the mind and it's workings. Sycophant is a word used to describe people who slander others or who cheat others...so I doubt anyone on here is a "would-be" one.
There is my serious & articulate rebuttal. Spell check can help you determine which big words you are using actually exist or not and an online thesaurus can aide you in using them correctly.
Just lending a helping hand with your attempt at seriousness...please resume...

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
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wesierobb
Feb. 7, 2004, 09:25 PM
"can aide you"???????????? Perhaps we were meaning to say "aid".................? LOL
I'm feeling spiteful having lost at Literati the last six games.....

http://www.pzonearth.com

MistyBlue
Feb. 7, 2004, 09:29 PM
An "aide is a person who does, indeed, aid. You got me there...I used the noun instead of the verb. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

ALF
Feb. 7, 2004, 09:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:

3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The sport may have changed, but the basics do not. Simply because we have bendy stirrup irons now doesn't mean we no longer need a flexible ankle. Because riders can't get out of the ring, for whatever reason, doesn't mean they shouldn't be able to ride forward. Just because A/A's can't put in the saddle time to achieve a secure leg doesn't mean a "praying mantis" position should be excused. Just because we have become a politically-correct society doesn't mean a trainer shouldn't encourage fitness in his students. And, finally, you'll find that EVERYTHING that can/will go wrong in riding, be it with the horse, rider, or both, all boils down to BASICS. The very best trainers, like GM, know that.

_Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So you acknowledge that the sport has changed, and you don't disagree that GM's routine has not. Therefore my point stands.

thank you

ALF
Feb. 7, 2004, 09:34 PM
'psychophant' is indeed a word. Anyone who has followed GM as closely as you should recognize its special meaning!

Janet
Feb. 7, 2004, 10:01 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:


This is the place to make yourself heard if you can articulate a coherent rebuttal to any of the following points:

1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Probably true if you are talking about the very top classes. But there is a proliferation (in the US) of so-called "Grand Prix" which are not as challenging. Also, can you clarify whetehr you are talking about American "top jumper courses", or worldwide "top Jumper courses" (e.g., Aachen).<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, though it is not clear whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> When both GM and Victor were writing columns, it was interesting that they could address the same issue in such different ways- George by complaining about what was wrong, and Victor by praising what was right, and encouraging other to copy what was right. In that respect, George hasn't changed his message- he complains.

But even though the sport has changed (I don't know that I agree with "drastically", at least at the top levels which appear to be the part under discussion), the things that were wrong 20 years ago may very well be the same things that are wrong now. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course it is nonsense. You are willfully twisting what someone else was saying. At the top levels, WBs require different skills (as a generalization), but not lesser skills.

At the bottom of the sport, the story is rather different. The threshold for being "a good enough rider to go to an A show" has certainy deteriorated. More tolerant horses (which WBs often are) may well be part of it. As well as the proliferation of ante-pre-baby-hunter/jumper classes.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This depends on your criteria for defining both being "a better rider" and being "more sucessful". Regardless of how good a rider they are, someone 40(plus)-something is likely to have different objectives from someone 20-something. For instance, I am sure that Nelson Pessoa is still an excellent rider. But from a competitive perspective he isn't "Successful", since competition is no longer his primary focus.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

ALF
Feb. 7, 2004, 10:08 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:


This is the place to make yourself heard if you can articulate a coherent rebuttal to any of the following points:

1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Probably true if you are talking about the very top classes. But there is a proliferation (in the US) of so-called "Grand Prix" which are not as challenging. Also, can you clarify whetehr you are talking about American "top jumper courses", or worldwide "top Jumper courses" (e.g., Aachen).<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> True, though it is not clear whether this is a good thing or a bad thing.<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> When both GM and Victor were writing columns, it was interesting that they could address the same issue in such different ways- George by complaining about what was wrong, and Victor by praising what was right, and encouraging other to copy what was right. In that respect, George hasn't changed his message- he complains.

But even though the sport has changed (I don't know that I agree with "drastically", at least at the top levels which appear to be the part under discussion), the things that were wrong 20 years ago may very well be the same things that are wrong now. <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Of course it is nonsense. You are willfully twisting what someone else was saying. At the top levels, WBs require different skills (as a generalization), but not lesser skills.

At the bottom of the sport, the story is rather different. The threshold for being "a good enough rider to go to an A show" has certainy deteriorated. More tolerant horses (which WBs often are) may well be part of it. As well as the proliferation of ante-pre-baby-hunter/jumper classes.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> This depends on your criteria for defining both being "a better rider" and being "more sucessful". Regardless of how good a rider they are, someone 40(plus)-something is likely to have different objectives from someone 20-something. For instance, I am sure that Nelson Pessoa is still an excellent rider. But from a competitive perspective he isn't "Successful", since competition is no longer his primary focus.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So I'm 4 for 4 and you chose not to answer number 5. Of course I'm not talking about Nelson Pessoa. There are at least 10 obvious candidates who fit the description, and he does not.

Re: # 1 - both.

Re: the European horse thing - I didnt twist anyone's words. Read the closed thread again if you didn't get that the first time.

Janet
Feb. 7, 2004, 10:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> There are at least 10 obvious candidates who fit the description, and he does not. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> OK, tell me who you are talking about, and what your definition of "sucessful" and "better rider" are, and I might be able to answer 5.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

ALF
Feb. 7, 2004, 10:17 PM
OK, since we already used him as an example: Ian Millar.

Egioja
Feb. 7, 2004, 10:53 PM
1) Having not really seen any of the courses of "back when" I can't really say that I amqualified to answer this question. But I can say, that back then the footing wasn't perfect, and they probably didn't care nearly as much about detail (if the fence was 5" top far away from the other, it just stayed there, adn the riders dealt with it). Here, we always seen to be riding on (more or less) perfect footing, with everything layed out for us, and no real challenge in the course.
I will say that the courses in Europe (well, since I lived in germany, and showed there-lets just say germany) are MUCH more challening then what we have here. Oh, I also don't consider a hunter course even a course (I'm a jumper), they are just way to simple-your biggest challenge is riding the right number of strides down a perfectly measured line.

2)Probably, but there is a major problem with it-it's a huge industry, there is way too much money going to everyone expect for the competitors-back in europe every class is not only affordable, but gasp-you even win money! Horse shows still need to operate on a much larger scale-they need to be everywhere, you need to be able to drive no more then 30min. to get to a show, and they should be affordable to even the average person!

3)Again, I don't know what he was preaching 20 years ago, but I imagine it hasn't changed a ton-but I also dont belive the sport has changed any, yes, there are new classes for beginner riders/horses-but when you break it down, the SPORT is still the same, they've just opened competitions to more people (at least riding ability wise).

4)definite nonsense-thats all I own, and yes, some are much mroe easy going then others-in fact, my SWG is a great horse to teach people to ride on, but put him in the show ring, and unless you RIDE (as in sit down, use your leg, drive foward and keep him collected) he won't jump. Granted, I have done a bunch with him in the last few years, and now he jumps quite well-but I haven't taken him to a show either.
My mare is the exact oppisite, if you are not dead on in everything, she will let you know.
I guess what I am saying-if you buy the european horse in europe, he is going to eb trained to take the rider to the highest level possible, and as a result demand the highest level of riding. Buy the WB here, and he is trained to pack people around.

5)Honestly, I couldn't tell you-but think about it, if they were competitive at high levels 20 years ago, they were probably in their mid-20s, now they would be in their mid 40's-thats a huge jump, your life changes so much in that time, I just dont think you can compare this at all.

My collection of not-so-great pics of my "herd" http://groups.msn.com/BAENAddicts/lizsherd.msnw?albumlist=2

DoubleTwistedWire
Feb. 7, 2004, 11:18 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
Okay, I'm being very serious here..."psychophant" is not a word. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, I think ElectricTape is right on the mark with psychophant http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

mickey
Feb. 8, 2004, 12:08 AM
OK obviously this thread and apparently the previous one require a flame suit, so I am all zipped up. I really have only one thing to say, so I am not addressing the whole initial post in numerical order. I will also avoid any big words for fear of using them incorrectly or misspelling them!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I am not a GM devotee, primarily because he has been deified. (Yikes, kind of a big word. Did I spell and use it correctly?) Anyway, he is worshipped for his accomplishments, which granted are numerous but not unrivaled. He has essentially marketed himself EXTREMELY well, and there is nothing wrong with that. But he didn't come up with the basics, he just studied them extensively and taught them, wrote about them, embraced them, gave them his own twist etc. I agree with what he says about many things, but not EVERYTHING.

If I am correct (and I am not saying I am), but I thought his article was primarily addressing the quality of riding instruction at the present time. To my understanding or at least what I focused on about the article was that intructors today do not focus on the basics enough in their teaching. He cited BASIC position issues, such as weight in the lower leg etc as things he feels are overlooked.

So now I am getting to my point, and if this is a big troll fest I can't believe I have spent this much time on it...

I am addressing #3 of the original post: yes the sport and the industry have changed significantly in the past 20 yrs. The style of horse being ridden, the quality or lack thereof etc. But they are still HORSES!! They have a leg on each corner, need to be in balance etc, and the whole concept behind a "correct design of position" -for those of you who have studied Littauer who coached Gordon Wright who coached GM- is that a proper position is what is most effective and BEST for the horse if he has to carry you on his back and actually do something athletic. That has not changed in 20 years, and will not change in the next 20 yrs.

So, that's my story and I'm sticking to it, though perhaps it is essentially OT in what is going on on these threads. Original thread baffled me and I almost replied wondering if I had missed point of article or thread had departed from point of article.....so I am sure I am about to find out http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

DoubleTwistedWire
Feb. 8, 2004, 01:14 AM
mickey, I agree. While the hunt coat colors and in vogue breed may have changed, they are all still horses, and still require the same fundamental basics. Whether a TB hunter or WB dressage horse, the basics are the same. They may require a different type of ride, but the fundamental physics are the same. Hell, a medieval warhorse really shouldn't have taxed a modern rider that much; it's still just a horse, after all. Different tack, different look, still four legs and a brain http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

A large part of the reason that GM is deified (yes, you did use it correctly) is that he still does emphsize and teach the basics. I do think one can learn a great deal from him, and have been to his clinics. However, he is not the be-all and end-all. I've had several other teachers who have taught me the same lessons he had to impart; it's not the Holy Word. Most of it's just good basic horsemanship. If more people taught and learned it, I don't know if GM would be regarded so loftily. It's simply that he's one of the few "old school" horsemen still out there. Riders would be just as well served to pick up Littaeur--he sits on my shelf next to Morris--or even Alois Podhaijsky or Xeonphon. Across time or discipline, good horsemanship is good horsemanship.

dogchushu
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:16 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Egioja:
... Oh, I also don't consider a hunter course even a course (I'm a jumper), they are just way to simple-your biggest challenge is riding the right number of strides down a perfectly measured line.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I debated whether I was going to post this since I don't want to hijack the thread and I don't want to seem like I'm singling you out Egioja, but this is a sticking point of mine: hunters is not jumpers over easy courses and lower fences.

The biggest challenge is not getting the number of strides. It's getting a beautiful, impressive-looking jump while keeping a relaxed (not dead) pace, getting smooth changes, getting the strides, and making it look easy (ie. no obvious adjustments). The horses movement counts too. The way it was explained to me is that the quality of the jump is the most important thing--you should never sacrifice the jump to get any of those other factors I mentioned. In the reality of competition, you're not going to win if you don't get those other factors (say, the strides) because you'll be up against other horses that have nice jumps but also get the strides, the changes, the pace, and make it look easy.

Sure the courses are simple because hunters are looking for different things than jumpers. You aren't going to win if you don't get the strides--but that's certainly not the biggest challenge for most horses!


BTW: I always thought "sycophant" was a synonym for "suck up." So I guess "psychophant" means "psychotic suck up." Hey--that's my co-workers!



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

lmlacross
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:49 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:

So I'm 4 for 4 and you chose not to answer number 5. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a more interesting discussion. Let's peel back the onion on why it's so important for you to be right. What's going on there? You made some valid points, most of which I agree with-- but why is our consensus so important to you? What's that about?

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*

Just My Style
Feb. 8, 2004, 08:55 AM
From the previous thread:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Just My Style
Advanced
posted Feb. 07, 2004 07:07 PM
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Would someone please pull the plug on ET?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Gladly! I started this topic because I felt that the commentary by George Morris was worth reading and worth discussing. Many of the individuals have done just that. However, it is starting to develop in to a three ring circus with Electric Tape as the main attraction. S/he will now need to move on for attention somewhere else, because this topic will be closed. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I think this about says it... and the show under the big top continues. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

Clydejumper
Feb. 8, 2004, 10:06 AM
Well I have to say this. Why is everyone getting up in arms with E.T. Her opinion is her opinion.

BUT let me remind everyone she has disclosed she does not show and she apparently does not teach so she does not have an on hands experience of what is going on in the show ring and she is also still a pup. Experience will help educate her. GM has his valid points and he has some off the wall ideas also. But as of yet we are waiting for someone who is as talented a teacher and rider as he to pick up the reins when he passes on. For he is getting up there in years.

Grand Prix courses today are to easy in the U.S. so where do our riders go to get the mileage of real courses of riding off the eye and moving up down a line . That would be across the pond. So I would definitely say todays riders are not as good as they should be.

Flame suit on. Have a great weekend all.

Flying Horse Feathers

2ndyrgal
Feb. 8, 2004, 12:30 PM
Wait, ET doesn't show and doesn't teach? Ok, maybe she was frightened by a clown at a GM clinic. I would hazard a guess that if GM had lowered his standards over the years, and catered to the $$$$$ instead of his principles, he would have made PILES of money. You can disagree with the delivery of the message, but the message is still correct. If you want proof, put a junior rider who has good basics and doesn't win because she has a difficult horse on an OTTB and ask her to ride it around for a while then try a couple of cross rails. She will probably be fine. Now ask one of the "perch and point set" to do the same thing. You know the ones, with the kazzillion dollar dead made, trainer rides every day horse and they show it the course and freeze and it just canters around looking lovely and swapping leads. Suzi-i've-got-money-but no-seat, isn't going to do it on a bet. Nor should she.And yet, you see her week after week in 2'6" winning. Does it mean she is a good RIDER? No, it means she has a really good horse that could make Quasimodo pin if he wore puke green TS's.

Exitpoint
Feb. 8, 2004, 12:31 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Grand Prix courses today are to easy in the U.S. so where do our riders go to get the mileage of real courses of riding off the eye and moving up down a line . That would be across the pond. So I would definitely say todays riders are not as good as they should be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I am in agreement with your statement regarding the proliferation of "Grands Prix" in America that are tiny and simple. I have ridden horses who just turned 5 years old in a "Grand Prix" in the States that didn't have a fence higher than 4 feet 6 and no technical questions. It's sort of fun as a party trick ("watch my green horse ride a "GP!"), but it doesn't help build real riders.

But, when you say that "today's riders" are not so good as a result, I assume you mean "today's North American riders." The problems they have in Europe are not the same as here, and it is the Europeans that beat the North Americans over and over in recent years in showjumping competition.

It is also worth noting that, even though courses in competition might be small in some areas of America, that doesn't mean we have to school our horses over small and easy courses at home!

Finally, I concur that riding an outstanding hunter round is a worthy feat in and of itself. It is much, much harder than it looks - making things look easy is anything but! Hunters, however, are a North American phenomenon alone and we have nobody else to compare ourselves to in this sport.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I and Cantour
Can Holsteiners jump? Watch Capone strut his stuff! (http://www.stallions.net/videos.html/)

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 01:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2ndyrgal:
Wait, ET doesn't show and doesn't teach? Ok, maybe she was frightened by a clown at a GM clinic. I would hazard a guess that if GM had lowered his standards over the years, and catered to the $$$$$ instead of his principles, he would have made PILES of money. You can disagree with the delivery of the message, but the message is still correct. If you want proof, put a junior rider who has good basics and doesn't win because she has a difficult horse on an OTTB and ask her to ride it around for a while then try a couple of cross rails. She will probably be fine. Now ask one of the "perch and point set" to do the same thing. You know the ones, with the kazzillion dollar dead made, trainer rides every day horse and they show it the course and freeze and it just canters around looking lovely and swapping leads. Suzi-i've-got-money-but no-seat, isn't going to do it on a bet. Nor should she.And yet, you see her week after week in 2'6" winning. Does it mean she is a good RIDER? No, it means she has a really good horse that could make Quasimodo pin if he wore puke green TS's.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Unless his finances are handled by Mike Tyson, GM does have piles of money. You can draw your own conclusion from that.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 01:12 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lmlacross:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:

So I'm 4 for 4 and you chose not to answer number 5. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have a more interesting discussion. Let's peel back the onion on why it's so important for you to be _right_. What's going on there? You made some valid points, most of which I agree with-- but why is our consensus so important to you? What's that about?

LML

*MidWest/Chicago Clique*
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Looks like you are the only one who finds that a more interesting discussion.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 01:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Clydejumper:
Well I have to say this. Why is everyone getting up in arms with E.T. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think it's because the emporer may not be 100% naked, but he's not fully-clothed either.

And as far as I can tell, you and I show in the same division.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 01:26 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mickey:

I am addressing #3 of the original post: yes the sport and the industry have changed significantly in the past 20 yrs. The style of horse being ridden, the quality or lack thereof etc. But they are still HORSES!! They have a leg on each corner, need to be in balance etc, and the whole concept behind a "correct design of position" -for those of you who have studied Littauer who coached Gordon Wright who coached GM- is that a proper position is what is most effective and BEST for the horse if he has to carry you on his back and actually do something athletic. That has not changed in 20 years, and will not change in the next 20 yrs.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You are correct that horsemanship hasn't changed, but GM's rants dont really deal much with horsemanship. Mostly they deal with the importance of horsemanship, which GM predictably thinks is overlooked 'nowadays.' He's not really saying how to ride (for a riding instructor he spends remarkably little time on that), he's offereing an assessment of how the sport is being played.

The trouble with that is his assessment is the same now as it has always been, even though the sport has changed dramatically. If what he's saying now is true, it can't also have been true 20 years ago. In the words of Dr. Lee, "something is wrong."

Egioja
Feb. 8, 2004, 02:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dogchushu:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Egioja:
... Oh, I also don't consider a hunter course even a course (I'm a jumper), they are just way to simple-your biggest challenge is riding the right number of strides down a perfectly measured line.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I debated whether I was going to post this since I don't want to hijack the thread and I don't want to seem like I'm singling you out Egioja, but this is a sticking point of mine: hunters is not jumpers over easy courses and lower fences.

The biggest challenge is not getting the number of strides. It's getting a beautiful, impressive-looking jump while keeping a relaxed (not dead) pace, getting smooth changes, getting the strides, and making it look easy (ie. no obvious adjustments). The horses movement counts too. The way it was explained to me is that the quality of the jump is the most important thing--you should never sacrifice the jump to get any of those other factors I mentioned. In the reality of competition, you're not going to win if you don't get those other factors (say, the strides) because you'll be up against other horses that have nice jumps but also get the strides, the changes, the pace, and make it look easy.

Sure the courses are simple because hunters are looking for different things than jumpers. You aren't going to win if you don't get the strides--but that's certainly not the biggest challenge for most horses!


BTW: I always thought "sycophant" was a synonym for "suck up." So I guess "psychophant" means "psychotic suck up." Hey--that's my co-workers!



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course there a a lot more things involved in hunters then just getting stride and looking pretty-I personally just dont find it nearly as challenging as riding a good jumper course-in the jumpers your horse has to be collected, off the forehand, turn tight, put on the speed, and ride all speeds to differnt fences. Ussually each fence also requires a differnt ride then the last (aka you may have to hand-gallop to one, but come in really collected to a triple combination). In hunters you are expected to keep the same pace, and the same ride, same evrything throughout the entire course-of course this si not easy, but I feel that if hunters were given a task other then that, many would fail miserably.

Let it also be known that I have ridden both hunters and eq-a lot actually, and I have also placed (yes, on the A circuit, but also B), so I do actually understand what is required, I just didn't find it nearly as challenging-and it does not require a very skilled rider (not that there are riders who aren't skilled-but you can put anyone on one of those dead boke horses and they will will, regardless of how well they ride).

I'm not trying to start an argument, just stating my opinion.

My collection of not-so-great pics of my "herd" http://groups.msn.com/BAENAddicts/lizsherd.msnw?albumlist=2

Just My Style
Feb. 8, 2004, 02:24 PM
ET, since you like to correct everyone else-
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I think it's because the emporer may not be 100% naked, but he's not fully-clothed either. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It's E-M-P-E-R-O-R.

From ClydeJumper: <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> BUT let me remind everyone she has disclosed she does not show and she apparently does not teach so she does not have an on hands experience of what is going on in the show ring and she is also still a pup. Experience will help educate her. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I agree with your statement, but according to her profile she will be turning 105 years old in two weeks! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

SBT
Feb. 8, 2004, 02:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
So you acknowledge that the sport has changed, and you don't disagree that GM's routine has not. Therefore my point stands. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in the way you think it does. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif GM has not changed his routine because, no matter how much the sport changes, its basics remain THE SAME. GM is not like other "BNT's" who are constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. When you break down ANY problem with a horse or rider, faulty basics are always at the heart of it. GM has not changed because there is no need. NO, he's not the be-all and end-all. But he is very good at what he does.

Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise

dogchushu
Feb. 8, 2004, 02:30 PM
I recently read some theories on why we don’t have as many triple crown winners in racing or as many 400 hitters in baseball as we did in the past. Some of the theories advanced there may apply to why the US isn’t winning as much in international competition.

Perhaps the reason that the US isn’t winning as much in international competition is a combination of the fact that 1) the rest of the world has adopted the training and riding techniques that gave us an advantage in the past and 2) we don’t have the depth we should.

Years ago we won more perhaps because we had the training techniques, riding style, and horses that gave us a distinct advantage over the rest of the world. However, the rest of the world didn’t stagnate. Instead they adopted our techniques that worked, improved them where they could, and bred horses to compete at the top levels with our horses. So we no longer have the competitive advantage we used to.

So, say in the past we (hypothetically) may have had 60% of the riders and horses capable of winning in international competition, whereas today we only have 10%. You would expect that in the past we would have won, on average, 60% of the competitions, and today we would win only 10%. (I made up those numbers for illustrative purposes--I have no idea what the actual percentages would be.) Our top riders could very well be as good as riders in the past. It’s just that they may make up a smaller percentage of international competitors capable of winning at the top level (not competing at the top level, winning at the top level).

If this is true and if we want to win more today, we have to either 1) come up with new training and riding techniques to give us another competitive advantage or 2) increase our percentage of horses and riders capable of winning in international competition.

Unfortunately, I don’t think we can give our horses and riders any other competitive advantages. We may very well be coming up against the limit of what horses can do. It’s not like auto racing where we can invent a new technology. Horses are creatures of living tissue and bone. There’s a limit, even with breeding and training, to what we can improve at this point. It’s not like you can breed and train them to get infinitely cattier, quicker, and scopier. If we could, you’d eventually see horses jumping 10’ GP courses! There’s a limit to what the horse as a living animal can do.

So the question is whether we can increase our percentage of riders at the top. We have a huge base in the US of people who compete over fences. So why don’t our riders make up a larger percentage of those winning at the top levels? I think this is where many see problems. I don’t think those decrying the lack of basics in riders today are talking about Chris Kappler or Ian Miller. I think they’re talking about those that haven’t reached that level yet but could with proper training and encouragement.



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 02:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by sbt78lw:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
So you acknowledge that the sport has changed, and you don't disagree that GM's routine has not. Therefore my point stands. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not in the way you think it does. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif GM has not changed his routine because, no matter how much the sport changes, its basics remain THE SAME. GM is not like other "BNT's" who are constantly trying to reinvent the wheel. When you break down ANY problem with a horse or rider, faulty basics are always at the heart of it. GM has not changed because there is no need. NO, he's not the be-all and end-all. But he is very good at what he does.

_Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

But he's not really saying anything about the basics, other than nobody has mastered them, which isnt true.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 02:56 PM
Adjust My Style - we can get your lame-o thread reopened if you want.

Psychophant.

silver
Feb. 8, 2004, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Perhaps the reason that the US isn’t winning as much in international competition is a combination of the fact that 1) the rest of the world has adopted the training and riding techniques that gave us an advantage in the past and 2) we don’t have the depth we should.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The US also doesn't win as much internationally b/c they have a terrible selection process. In the past you had one guy choosing the teams, team horses, summer camp for team riders etc. It certainly wasn't ideal but the riders didn't have to run themselves ragged teaching and training and zooming all over the country to qualigy either. European riders just ride. It has to make a difference in their focus.

And as for the hunters, it really does not take as much skill as riding in the jumpers, IME. It's more about preparation than getting out ther and doing it and most people have their trainers prep their horses. I'm not saying a blind monkey could do it, but there are not as many seperate sriding skills required as in the jumpers. IMHO the style and flow elements don't come in until you are doing 3'6" or up. Maybe 3'.

Just My Style
Feb. 8, 2004, 04:13 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Electric Tape
posted Feb. 08, 2004 04:56 PM
Adjust My Style - we can get your lame-o thread reopened if you want.

Psychophant.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Why does everything turn personal with you? Why are you incapable of having a discussion with adults? Why do you have to call people names? Why do you always insist on being right?

I closed my thread because the issues had been discussed at length. The only one that was still carrying on with the thread was you. I closed the thread and as I predicted, you needed to start up a thread on your own to continue trying to get attention. You do not take what other people have to say as their opinions. I really doubt that you are even old enough to be on these boards and I think the moderators should check your age. If you are old enough to be on the boards, then I think you need to grow up a bit and learn that people have different opinions on issues and that you are not always right. It is a good life lesson for you. There are a lot of good people with a tremendous amount of experience on these boards. As the saying goes- God gave us two ears, two eyes and only one mouth for a reason.

GA Clique/Drafties Clique
Live Large- Ride a Drafty!

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 04:22 PM
I thought dumbass posts like that were why you closed your thread.

Izabella
Feb. 8, 2004, 04:25 PM
And as for the hunters, it really does not take as much skill as riding in the jumpers, IME. It's more about preparation than getting out ther and doing it and most people have their trainers prep their horses. I'm not saying a blind monkey could do it, but there are not as many seperate sriding skills required as in the jumpers. IMHO the style and flow elements don't come in until you are doing 3'6" or up. Maybe 3'.[/QUOTE]



Excuse me....is this an educated or uneducated statement???

DoubleTwistedWire
Feb. 8, 2004, 04:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Izabella:
And as for the hunters, it really does not take as much skill as riding in the jumpers, IME. It's more about preparation than getting out ther and doing it and most people have their trainers prep their horses. I'm not saying a blind monkey could do it, but there are not as many seperate sriding skills required as in the jumpers. IMHO the style and flow elements don't come in until you are doing 3'6" or up. Maybe 3'.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Excuse me....is this an educated or uneducated statement???[/QUOTE]

Well, I'd been wondering where they were showing that the hunter divisions weren running under 3,' because I know some youngsters that I'd love to start out there, to save some wear and tear http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

findeight
Feb. 8, 2004, 04:39 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
.......You are correct that horsemanship hasn't changed, but GM's rants dont really deal much with horsemanship. Mostly they deal with the importance of horsemanship, which GM predictably thinks is overlooked 'nowadays.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I said I'd stay out but.......What of GMs rants is it you think DON'T deal with horsemanship and the lack thereof in the show ring??????
Today or 20 years ago there are too many that just sit on the horse. Too many glorified Juniors that hang out a shingle as trainers while Mommy's money supports them. Too many deadbeats that see abuse and drugging as an easy way to profit from the ignorant. That HASN'T changed and never will.

You know, that's my opinion based on 35 years in the saddle in 3 disciplines. You name it, I've seen it in all breeds and seats.
Agree with it or not.
But it's an opinion and has as much import as anybody elses's. No more. No less.

Let's go back to stating opinions and discussing them and not fixate on a be all end all definition that solves all and answers all.
Don't pontificate as if your opinion is "it" whatever your view...and try to read for content and not jump on the nearest bandwagon http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

findeight
Feb. 8, 2004, 05:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
I thought dumbass posts like that were why you closed your thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Several old BB posters have enquired why I am not posting like I used to.

I think this explains why...Who the Hel* are any of us to call another a dumbass simply beacause we disagree with their position?????????

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 05:26 PM
Did you read the post? There was no position to disagree with.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 05:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
What of GMs rants is it you think DON'T deal with horsemanship <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you weigh them, youll find that most of his writings are stream of conciousness monologues about himself. Someone's personal taste in tack or fashion has nothing to do with horsemanship. Deriding unspecified pieces of equipment that he hasn't used successfully as gimmicks doesnt do anything to inform his audience. I don't recall EVER reading what he has to say about feed or shoeing.

The closest he ever gets to informing anyone about horsemanship is when he says you have to keep your heels down. And use an auto-release. Maybe. Unless you are a beginner.

findeight
Feb. 8, 2004, 05:54 PM
Hmmm....I see you state that Martin Gale should have been HM of the year over CK but lost as he is German...Martin Gale????

Fool me once shame on you fool me twice shame on me. You got me, but it won't happen again.

Be staying out from under your bridge in the future, no matter how tempting.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

silver
Feb. 8, 2004, 05:57 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DoubleTwistedWire:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Izabella:
And as for the hunters, it really does not take as much skill as riding in the jumpers, IME. It's more about preparation than getting out ther and doing it and most people have their trainers prep their horses. I'm not saying a blind monkey could do it, but there are not as many seperate sriding skills required as in the jumpers. IMHO the style and flow elements don't come in until you are doing 3'6" or up. Maybe 3'.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



Excuse me....is this an educated or uneducated statement???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is the opinion of someone who has shown in many many hunter and jumper classes, up to Open hunters and 4'+ jumpers. On the same horses, in the same tack.

I did not say that hunters took no skill, rather that the skill was primarily in the preparation of the horse which, these days, is generally not performed by the rider.

And if anyone can find a show that doesn't have large 2'6" and 2'9" divisions please tell ME, because they were rather prevalent (and big) at the last few H/J shows I attended. :winkgrin

Mouse2713
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:00 PM
After having ridden in clinics and taken my students to clinics given by Mr. Morris for the past 20 years I have to say that if someone makes disparaging comments about his teaching style or content, then they either havent been to a lesson with him or if they had one, they werent paying attention. Every lesson or clinic that I have been to with him (lots over the years) has taught me something that I have used to become a better teacher. The people who go to those same clinics and complain (though I have met VERY FEW) are usually the type that ride in the whole lesson, wasting everyones time by trying to prove that they are smarter than he is.

I believe that most of the people on this board who have participated in lessons or clinics with Mr. Morris and were paying attention, would have to admit that he is one of the best teachers that ever lived.

Probably 90% of the professionals in this country have at one time or another trained with him, so to make disrespectful comments about his teaching style shows ignorance of good horsemanship.

That said, I took a trip to Germany last year where we were lucky enough to have a clinic with an amazing gentleman who was a two time silver medalist in the European championships and had won a medal in the olympics. Halfway through the lesson, he asked me if the three riders that were in the lesson were, indeed, my students. I told him that yes, they were my students, at which point he said that all three were much better riders than any riders their age that were currently riding and competing in Germany. He made the comment that it was obvious that we had a much better training program than what could be found for junior riders in Germany. The particular students that he was talking about are junior jumper and medal/maclay/USET riders, and they do ok for themselves, but they are probably about equal with any of the other riders at the A shows that they attend. I said, then why do the Germans beat us all the time in international competitions? He said, and I quote, "For two hundred years you breed small horses that go very fast in a straight line. For two hundred years we breed big horses to go very fast over big fences, and we dont sell you the best horses we breed, we keep them for ourselves. It will take you at least a hundred years to catch up, so we will always beat you, no matter who rides our horses."

If there were some way that you could come up with a plan to get the very best thoroughbreds off the track instead of taking them to the kenntucky derby, then you would probably have some pretty athletic jumpers, even if they are only bred to go fast in a straight line. Unfortunatly I dont know too many people in the hunter world that are willing to pay 6-10 million dollars for a yearling that had great breeding and great conformation.

So, we could learn to ride the hot american horses if they were in abundant supply and sound enough to use after they have been on the track. We just dont have to because we have German imports to play with that are generally quieter and though heavy, they are a different type of ride, and malleable to our show ring needs.

Also, and this comes from 30 years of teaching experience, student now, are a LOT lazier than they were many years ago. They are constantly looking for the quick fix, the cheap horse, the instant success. Not everyone, because I do have hard working students, but the ratio has gone down a lot in the past 30 years. Add to that the combination of the person that has the money to play the game along with the talent and the dedication/work ethic, and the numbers have thinned considerably in the past several years. Instant gratification is the name of the game, and the type of horsemanship that we used to have that developed the horse over a period of years has deteriorated. Who can afford to put two solid years into a young horse before you take it to the A rated shows. Who can wait till the horse is 3 1/2 years old before you break it to ride. People who spend tons of money on this business dont want to wait and they certainly dont want to work for the end result. They have money and they are willing to spend it to get the animal that they think will work perfectly for them, without the extra effort of trying to train it. So, if you are a trainer, and a client comes to you and says, I have X to spend, and I want to win now, do you give them a lecture on how to be a good horseman and tell them that they need to develop a horse from scratch. Of course not. They will move to another barn, and you would lose the revenue. Most trainers hold on financial security is tenuous at best, even those of us who work 18 hours a day. We try to accomodate our clients to make them happy and keep them with us as long as possible. And, George Morris is right to say that this keeps them from developing into good horsemen.

I think the our beef should be with the USAE, and the 5 main horse show management companies which, because of the rules, send people on the road umpteen weeks a year to show, if they want to go to indoors in any capacity, and rewards in NO way the hard work of young up and coming riders, who ARE developing into good horse people. They dont care what they do for the horse industry, they just want our money.

For, the record, we dont chase points, I would rather be poor as a churchmouse and have kids who were good horse people, but not everyone feels that way.

findeight
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:03 PM
This is one thread not to take too seriously, some alters are pot stirring to provide entertainment...and thay have done that.

Don't take it seriously. Hunters is Dressage with fences thrown in and its HARD and any horseman knows it.

Like I said, don't take any of this to heart.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:06 PM
Just in case anyone doesnt know what a stream of conciousness monologue is, we have made arrangements for one to be posted on this thread.

noname
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:07 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mouse2713:
I said, then why do the Germans beat us all the time in international competitions? He said, and I quote, "For two hundred years you breed small horses that go very fast in a straight line. For two hundred years we breed big horses to go very fast over big fences, and we dont sell you the best horses we breed, we keep them for ourselves. It will take you at least a hundred years to catch up, so we will always beat you, no matter who rides our horses."

If there were some way that you could come up with a plan to get the very best thoroughbreds off the track instead of taking them to the kenntucky derby, then you would probably have some pretty athletic jumpers, even if they are only bred to go fast in a straight line. Unfortunatly I dont know too many people in the hunter world that are willing to pay 6-10 million dollars for a yearling that had great breeding and great conformation.

So, we could learn to ride the hot american horses if they were in abundant supply and sound enough to use after they have been on the track.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


i would have to agree completely with you on that! that is what i have been saying for years!

findeight
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
Just in case anyone doesnt know what a stream of conciousness monologue is, we have made arrangements for one to be posted on this thread.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh I know I should be doing this but do that instead, why? As I sit the gelding around the corner I know I need to weight the outside leg more but keep thinking of last night and that blond pool boy.............ROTFLMAO

ET you are too funny http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

Mouse2713
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:11 PM
Electric tape, I dont think that George Morris has to lecture us on feeding and shoeing as:

1.) His horses are impecably turned out at ALL times, but he is not a vet or a farrier, he is a trainer.

and:

2.) Since he is a trainer and not a vet or a farrier, he makes comments on tack, training aids and position, because as a trainer, that is what he is supposed to be commenting on.

and:

3.) The audience he is speaking to is largely uneducated about riding. (dont rant and flame me for this, but when you teach a million people, 20,000 may be well informed, but you need to make your comments understood by all one million). He isnt speaking to trainers, so he is giving advice on how to improve everyday riding, for the average person. All of the clinics I have been too that he has given, have been much more in depth than his articles in magazines, but he has to speak to the masses, and not just trainers in his articles. I personaly dont have time to read much in magazines. Posting here once or twice a week keeps me up to date and informed, but almost all of my students read practical horsemen and the chronicle, and I doubt if they would understand a hugely technical riding article and I wouldnt expect them too. Mr. Morris is trying to teach the masses, and that is quite different than teaching a lesson.

and:

3.) Chris Kappler is possibly the best rider in the country today and is definatly in my opinion in the top ten in the world. Ray Texel is in the same category. Both of these riders have worked very closely for many years with Mr. Morris and not to take credit from those instructors who started these two beautiful horsemen, I believe that Mr. Morris is a HUGE part of why they are such beautiful riders AND, for those who know them, such wonderful horsemen too.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:11 PM
I believe it was Gordon Wright who said 'ask and you shall receive'

SBT
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
But he's not really saying anything about the basics, other than nobody has mastered them, which isnt true.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If that's what you think, then you've OBVIOUSLY never been to a GM clinic or taken a lesson from him. Take it from one who HAS...he is ALL about basics. And if you think the majority of riders out there HAVE mastered the basics, you obviously haven't been to a horse show lately, or looked at any pictures in magazines.

Heart in a horse is every bit as important as it is in a person. ~Jimmy Cruise

dogchushu
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
This is one thread not to take too seriously, some alters are pot stirring to provide entertainment...and thay have done that.

Don't take it seriously. Hunters is Dressage with fences thrown in and its HARD and any horseman knows it.

Like I said, don't take any of this to heart.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks findeight. I'm steppint out of the hunters vs. jumpers debate because 1) it's pretty much a hijack and 2) it's a dead horse at this point--and you know how we hunters prefer to ride our dead horses! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif



"Opportunity is missed by most people because it is dressed in overalls and looks like work." -- Thomas A. Edison

biggreymare
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:14 PM
I want to make MYopinion be known...ET, you are the meanest, rudess, and the most childish person that I have ever seen on this BB. Even though I haven't been registered very long,I have lurked for the last few years. I agree 100% with Findeight, who the hell do you think you are?? And do you expect any of us to respect you after this, I know i wont. Bashing other's opinion is NOT COOL. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Member of the: Adult Pony Rider, Grey Mare, GA, and Klutz Cliques

LMH
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
I believe it was Gordon Wright who said 'ask and you shall receive'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think he stole that line from someone else! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

findeight
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:17 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Getting a little biblical here aren't we ET?

Cut these folks some slack, they don't "get it".

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mouse2713:

Since he is a trainer and not a vet or a farrier, he makes comments on tack, training aids and position
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nowadays, many trainers make comments on training as well. Time will tell if this is a gimmick.

Anne
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:21 PM
"I don't recall EVER reading what he has to say about feed or shoeing."

Then you obviously haven't read "The American Jumping Style". I would provide quotes, but I donated my copy to the Aiden auction. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:23 PM
Well I did read it. I just don't recall the part about horsemanship.

MistyBlue
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:37 PM
Aaahhh, and here I was thinking the title of this thread meant for the replies to be SERIOUS. I had assumed that meant everyone including the OP.
Fine, have it your way. You're fabulous, we all stink. We're so bad we've created a whole new word...psychophant. Which is probably something to be proud of these days. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
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findeight
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
....Nowadays, many trainers make comments on training as well. Time will tell if this is a gimmick.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Dam..trainers commenting on training..I will sign off on this one......ET you have really made me laugh tonite, but take it easy on those who hang on every word posted as the Gospel Truth...for there is NO SUCH THING with horses.

Nevertheless I have really enjoyed your posts, once I "got it'.

Good nite.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

findeight
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:44 PM
P.S.
Syncophants are the proverbial yes men, the brown nosers who follow all successful types to the top then bask in the glory that is NOT theirs.
Wrong word.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 06:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by biggreymare:
I want to make _MY_opinion be known...ET, you are the meanest, rudess, and the most childish person that I have ever seen on this BB.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

There's one title I wont have to relinquish as long as Georgie chooses to remain computer-illiterite.

mickey
Feb. 8, 2004, 07:10 PM
Please tell me ET is a troll.....

My computer skills do not allow me to quote, so I will paraphrase this statement by ET: [GM talks about horsemanship but doesn't say how to ride]

Horsemanship is the core. Without it, you are a "rider", meaning that you sit up there and go for a ride. I am sure that GM knows plenty about feed and shoeing, but The COTH is not paying him for articles on feed and shoeing. I am sure he is invited to write about horsemanship because as it has been stated more than once; he is still preaches it! GM gives horsemanship validity because he has always been known for it. And when he attacks someone for the lack thereof such as gimmicks or poor tack, it is an effort to preserve and hopefully continue some kind of quality in the sport. I think he addresses gimmicks because they are often overly used or poorly used by the masses; rather than being evil unto themselves.
Ever try to ride a horse that has been over-done in draw reins? You touch their mouth and they put their chin on their chest......

In addition, I will apply my little-used history major to point out that when the USET was winning everything in sight in the 50's, 60's, and even 70's, Europe was recovering from WWII. It took some time for their economies to recover to the point that breeding horses for something as inane as competition was an economic option for much of Europe. So of course TB's were winning, that's the kind of horses we were producing here, and we could afford to have horses; all our grain was not going to making BREAD for the starving masses! The Europeans were starting fresh, and we have, in the past "20 yrs" that ET is so fixated on, seen the outcome of the redevelopment of their breeding industry. To me it is amazing that there was any stock left with which to start over!! The open stud books in Europe have also allowed for the creation of the "perfect jumping machine", and many breeders both here and abroad have cashed in on it. A lot of those breeds have a lot of TB in them, but they have more power, more bone, more durability and more scope by adding the bulk of the heavier European horses. The TB blood lightened up those breeds and gave them speed and "fire".

So before you jump on me ET, yes, all of what I just said supports your statement that the sport has changed... but I say that the fundamentals that GM preaches are still valid, and if you look at the best jumper riders here or abroad or the best hunter riders in the US, you will see these fundamentals utilized and the successful outcome they produce.

In the COTH GM is addressing the masses in an editorial format. I imagine what he has to say to Chris Kappler et. al. when helping them prepare for a GP is quite probably over all our heads. His articles are like a PhD geneticist teaching high school biology. His knowledge and experience is considerable in comparision to the masses he is addressing, so he touches on the issues he feels the industry as a whole can relate to and dissimilate.

ZZZZZZZZZIIIIIIPPPPPPPPPPP......flame suit on.........

BTW, I am enjoying the rebuttals produced here so I felt it worthy to respond in kind. If it continues to degenerate I will be saddened to see the opportunity for discussion once again ended.

breezymeadow
Feb. 8, 2004, 07:20 PM
DON'T FEED THE TROLLS!!!!

Just let this thread die a natural death. It has nothing good to say.

My body is a temple - unfortunately, it's a "fixer-upper".

radio talk Aefvue Farms RCA
Feb. 8, 2004, 07:30 PM
If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck........Mickey me thinks you have have it right on!!

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 07:30 PM
Do you think the Europeons are faring better internationally because they are doing it Georgie's way? Not a chance. All the gimmicks and shortcuts he disikes came over with horses from the countries that are winning now.

If Gm thought more about winning and less about whining, this thread would never have happened.

mickey
Feb. 8, 2004, 07:40 PM
Yep, most of page 3 happened while I was working diligently on my reply, so I am most assuredly done with this thread......shame......

Erin
Feb. 8, 2004, 07:43 PM
You know how there are certain people out there who just like to argue for the sake of arguing? Doesn't matter how obviously right you are, they'll still argue.

Well, this is one of those threads. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just walk away... really. It's not worth wasting your breath on.

And, for the record, name-calling is not appropriate here, and I don't care which "side" it comes from. Just because someone else did it first is no reason to respond in kind, so knock it off.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 07:45 PM
If you were pressed for time you shoulda just posted this:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mickey:
ET, yes, all of what I just said supports your statement <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Dont worry, I wont close the thread as long as people keep agreeing with me!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Kellsboro Jack
Feb. 8, 2004, 08:20 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mickey:
In addition, I will apply my little-used history major to point out that when the USET was winning everything in sight in the 50's, 60's, and even 70's, Europe was recovering from WWII. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Whoa this paragraph above is a bit too general for my tastes.

Just so we all work with the facts, the "golden era" produced some memorable wins, but look at the Olympics in terms of the 'rebuilding' or even ‘weak”‘ characterization of Europe "post war".

1952 Olympics Helsinki, Finland:
US team (Jumping) 3rd; highest individual William Steinkraus 11th

1956 Olympics Stockholm Sweden
US team (Jumping) 5th; highest individual Hugh Wiley 11th

1960 Olympics Rome
US team (Jumping) 2nd; highest individual George Morris 4th

1964 Olympics Tokyo
US team (Jumping) 6th; highest individual Frank Chapot 7th

1968 Olympics, Mexico City
US team (Jumping) 4th; highest individual William Steinkraus 1st

1972 Olympics, Munich W. Germany
US team (Jumping) 2nd; highest individual Neal Shapiro 3rd

Pretty good record, but not one Team Gold and just one single gold individual. In every other case, the Gold for Team and Individuals went to a European team.

Europe has dominated equestrianism almost forever and this from a faithful USET supporter. The US has mostly been a 'good for a solid finish' competitor, however we have we never been a consistent “killer squad” in jumping. The early US military remounts serving as the basis of the USET post WWII – same results.

The notion of WWII ruining equine stocks in Europe actually is a fallacy. In fact, it (for all the horrors) resulted in the strongest of the breeds surviving. A lot of great horses were lost and sport horses were certainly not the intended by product of programs post WWII in Europe, but the blood stocks were far more hearty as a result of the War.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 08:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> In every other case, the Gold for Team and Individuals went to a European team. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Nope. Not in Mexico.

ALF
Feb. 8, 2004, 08:31 PM
whoops. Does that count as arguing just to argue??

mickey
Feb. 8, 2004, 09:01 PM
I most certainly stand corrected.

Bumpkin
Feb. 9, 2004, 10:00 AM
Anne Kursinski won Aachen, trained and coached by George Morris.
She was the second woman to win Aachen and the second American.
I have heard that Aachen is harder and more prestigious than the Olympics.

(She was riding Starman/Calypso, a German bred horse though)

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

phone sneakers
Feb. 9, 2004, 12:07 PM
since when did differing opinions constitute trolling?

Pocket Pony
Feb. 9, 2004, 12:28 PM
I find Electric Tape to be very amusing. He/she clearly likes to push buttons, and everyone falls into the trap. I really enjoy ET's threads for the entertainment value - like reality TV or a soap opera!!!

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

phone sneakers
Feb. 9, 2004, 01:22 PM
et is not a troll.

Box-of-Rox
Feb. 9, 2004, 01:45 PM
ok, so i'm a big procrastinator who really likes to debate, and really doesn't like to translate latin and study for a spat of midterms. however, I also really like to not feel like a stupid ass. As a result, I am a half-assed student and a half-assed procrastinator. So I will procrastinate by replying, and be studious by not taking the time to read the previous pages, although I conceed that i (and the board) would probably benefit from my reading the pages and not replying. so, sorry:

1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before

Not true. A course, to me, is comprised of three things: terrain, track, and obstacle. Because a course is built from the bottom up, I will divide your claim that jumper courses are more challenging today than before into three subpoints. Subpoint A: terrain: American jumping competitions have taken to wooing competitors by providing foolproof, usually all weather or at least pre-constructed turf, footing. They also grade the rings. Examples of this can be seen in Manchester, Vermont, and the Hampton Classic. Although perhaps more user friendly, this certainly makes it easier, because mud and hills add faults by making horse and rider work harder, and in turn become sloppy. Subpoint B: track: as a result of the above, course designers have begun to ask more strategic questions. Courses now are much more technical, which does not mean more difficult: they can be prepared for, and drilled, in a way that they couldn't previously have been anticipated. Horses have to be less cagey, riders less sympathetic. Subpoint C: obstacles: the more manufactured terrain and track make it easier to make a jumping effort. Setting an oxer uphill or a vertical downhill make it substantially harder to clear. On a graded field, with pre-measured distances, a rider has little excuse to not place a horse perfectly to each fence. Also, the reduced variety of fence (ditches and coops are unique from each other, whales and beerbottles with the same planks between are not), again, reduces the chance that a horse will have to come across something new in the show ring that he has not been exposed to before.

2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past.

This is true in a numerical context, yet does not wash with your overall argument. In olden times, American competitions used to have large international draw. They no longer do. Having 300 children's hunters each week at WEF doesn't have anything to do with proving the superiority of today to yesterday. The truth is that the Garden used to be a big show and Europeans used to come over for our fall tour. Now, we only have WEF for international draw, and that competes with European circuits that see a lot more of our good riders than WEF sees of theirs. If anything, the largeness of horse shows is patently detrimental to the good of the industry, and you should be forced to learn how to navigate a 3'6" course, especially in the hunters, where all that is asked is to find eight distances.


3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically.

This is the most untrue of all of your statements. George Morris, whom I do not care for for a number of reasons, but whom I respect utterly, has NOT been a static party to a changing system. He has been a dynamic generator of the changes in our system. The crest release, that everyone uses as the prime example of the extent to which riding has degenerated? HE STARTED IT. I would posit that he (and he has admitted to this, and is trying to change some of it) is RESPONSIBLE for many of the changes, especially in a rider's style and in the additude towards our horses.

4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense

It is not nonsense, but again, you have your causalities mixed up. The proliferation of European horses in the show ring certainly illustrates a deterioration of riding skills, because, well, you know what? they're easier to ride. However, European horses are also (to my aesthetic, which is a modern one that has not seen many very nice American Thoroughbreds)better looking, and have a more pleasing jump, and are bred more carefully (not tlaking about hte "American Warmbloods," which are DraftXs and as poorly bred as many TB lines.), so are better conformed and better movers, and therefor make better hunters and equitation horses, and therefore indoctrinate our showjumping riders, from their novice days, into riding easier horses, and riding too many easy horses makes you a lesser rider.

5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring.

And here we have the penultimate in idiocy. Riding requires aerobic activity. Because it requires less and is less punishing on the body than, say, ballet dancing or football playing, a rider's career is longer than 10 years, but to suggest that a rider is meant to peak for a quarter of a century (what they would have to do to be a winner 20 years ago and a winner now) is to expect a rider to be as strong of mind and body, and as gamey, fearless and gambling at 30 as they are at 50. This basically requires either a very early peak (for example, McLain Ward, who has been a winning grandprix rider for almost 10 years, will still be kickin ass an taking names in 15 years, but many don't get to his level of success until they are 30something, which requires the ability to take a Centrum Silver in the morning and then go ride down to a 5'6" oxer while you contemplate your arthritic knee. That's expecting A LOT. Young riders often win because they gamble and get lucky. A great example is Aaron Vale, who is not one to be afraid of the gap, but also doesn't always leave that last jump up. Older riders are often more consistent, but know better than to take out that last stride.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

ALF
Feb. 9, 2004, 04:02 PM
BoX -

1) they still have some shows with poor footing. The horses don't struggle with it, they just get injured more.

2) Even if you only count the 3ft6 and bigger divisions the scale of horse showing today dwarfs what existed in the 80's. Or even if you only count the jumpers, for that matter.

3) What specifically is GM saying these days that's new?

4) Any rider over 35 came up on TB's, so the 'indoctrination' theory is hard to swallow.

5) Ian Millar is a better rider today than in the 80's, when he was the best in the world. And cardio-vascular deterioration below 55 or so is largely a social phenomenon.

Katie
Feb. 9, 2004, 05:55 PM
Someone please put us out of our collective misery and unplug Electric Tape!

Obviously, the thing to "get" is that this is a joke and not a very funny one at that.

ALF
Feb. 9, 2004, 06:11 PM
Katie - I love your signature line! You can post on my topic any time! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

CBoylen
Feb. 9, 2004, 08:08 PM
Alright, I frankly can't collect all the quotes I want to address from 4 pages (and a lot of things I DO NOT want to address http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ), so I'll make my points and assume you all will know if I'm speaking to your post in particular.

-There are Grand Prix, and there are grand prix. Obviously, one cannot base their opinion of our (from here out, assume "our" to refer to American) courses or caliber of competitor upon anything less than our highest standard of class. We have grand prix in this country that are not up to standard, certainly. However, we also have those that are. Where our best competitors are competing, where the WC qualifiers are held, those competitions are top notch. I can't imagine where people get the idea that our courses are set to a lesser standard. We use the European designers. Our own very best designers, such as Conrad, design international competitions quite splendidly. European competitors showing at WEF have consistently stated that the GP set there are the most challenging courses they jump all year, and certainly the highest. They have to adjust to our open field format.

-Which brings me to my next point. We show in Europe for the FORMAT. In the important international competitions, we jump on their format. That's more classes, closer together, with a higher pressure atmosphere, and a more international competitor base. We go to Europe to show against our competition, and to practice upon their terms, not because our own competitions are inadequate. Our competitions just do not reflect the format of the championships, although we've made great strides by moving to FEI rules at our best venues. If you want a point to rally around for change, there it is. Give us a way to practice properly at home.

-The selection format. Whomever mentioned that as the real reason why we haven't been producing on a championship scale, good for you. We're just now getting around to reforming that process. It's going to take some time for it to work, but I think we're already seeing some good results out of it. When our team was competitive, it was under closer, subjective supervision and selection. The teams that are competitive now follow the same program.

-The hunter ring. Please. Unless you are out there beating the pros repeatedly at our highest levels, I don't think anyone is qualified to make a judgment upon the level of skill required in the hunter ring. If it's so simple, do it. You'll make a lot of money and quite a name for yourself in the process. If it's that easy for you, I can't imagine why you aren't marketing your skill.
As a side note, any of our top jumper riders sent to the hunter ring by the wishes of a client will tell you they find it MORE difficult. I've heard Joe Fargis, Elizabeth Solter, Laura Kraut, and Leslie Howard all make statements to that effect. They have all said that it requires a level of precision and smoothness that they have to work to achieve, and admit to missing the mark sometimes without adequate hunter practice.

-The 'dumbing down' of A shows. Again, there are A shows, and there are A shows. Our superior shows do not have divisions under 3ft (besides, obviously, the pony divisions, and possibly a 3 and 4 year old division). They do not have 'practice' classes such as low, limit, or pre-anything, other than pre-green. There are levels to this sport, and statements cannot be made without taking them into consideration. Just because a show has an A or AA rating, it is not necessarily a TOP show. If you're going to speak about the average competitor or show, do so. If you're going to speak about our highest level competitors or shows, do so. However, differentiate between the two, for the sake of clarity. Our best shows are not "dumbed down". If you're unhappy with your level of competition or that around you, move up, instead of complaining that the shows are not up to your standards. The fact that there are levels of the sport is a GOOD thing. It enables more people to enjoy this sport at the level at which they are capable.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

MistyBlue
Feb. 9, 2004, 08:17 PM
Isn't Electric Tape what the mafia use to make someone's ravings more...ummm...quiet? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

Sparky22
Feb. 9, 2004, 08:29 PM
Nope that's duct tape... electric tape doesn't stick to the skin that well.

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

ALF
Feb. 9, 2004, 08:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
Isn't Electric Tape what the mafia use to make someone's ravings more...ummm...quiet? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. You're thinking of nuisance litigation.

MistyBlue
Feb. 9, 2004, 08:45 PM
Darn it, well does anyone have a nice big roll of nuisance litigation?

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique

ALF
Feb. 9, 2004, 08:48 PM
Yes, but that's a whole other topic!

Exitpoint
Feb. 12, 2004, 03:30 AM
I snuck out of town for a few days to catch some fine weather up at Whistler, and I missed all the drama!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Box-of-Rox:
Subpoint B: track: as a result of the above, course designers have begun to ask more strategic questions. Courses now are much more technical, which does not mean more difficult: they can be prepared for, and drilled, in a way that they couldn't previously have been anticipated. Horses have to be less cagey, riders less sympathetic.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just can't sign onto this argument. Courses today are more technical - we all agree that is true. But being more technical isn't by definition more difficult? Really, I do think this is a definitional issue.

"Technicality" is a level of sophistication added on top of other elements of course design. One can take the same footing, same fences and same conditions and increase technicality by, for example, setting a 3.5 stride line or by rearranging the fences so the triple combination is an oxer to short one stride to vertical to long two strides to oxer rather than a simple vertical one stride oxer two strides oxer.

Technicality is, by defintion, an increase in difficulty level.

As to your assertion that teaching horses to successfully navigate technical courses is a matter of simple schooling, I again must disagree. Yes, nowadays we do roll out a whole suite of drills and programs to teach horses about "technical questions." This is on top of all the other skills we've always - historically - had to teach successful jumpers.

None of the drills are the proverbial rocket science, true. Integrating them all into the finished product - a horse capable of answering any reasonable technical question asked on course - takes years and years of work and lots of experience and judgment so as to prevent over-facing horses with technical detail.

Perhaps, to you, this is easy - to me, it's perhaps the hardest part of preparing jumpers for competition today! Teaching a horse to jump big fences in open fields really isn't so hard. Teaching bending lines on half-strides and visual tricks in a "sea of rails" combination is not so easy. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Subpoint C: obstacles: the more manufactured terrain and track make it easier to make a jumping effort. Setting an oxer uphill or a vertical downhill make it substantially harder to clear. On a graded field, with pre-measured distances, a rider has little excuse to not place a horse perfectly to each fence. Also, the reduced variety of fence (ditches and coops are unique from each other, whales and beerbottles with the same planks between are not), again, reduces the chance that a horse will have to come across something new in the show ring that he has not been exposed to before.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know. . . I have a hard time seeing any top horses really being flustered by, say, a chicken coop on the course. In American GPs, at least, we see all sorts of natural fences. Ditches, devils' dikes, logs, open water. True, not so often in FEI competition but really how many faults or major crises do top American horses get into in the devil's dike? Not many.

I had a chuckle when you were talking about the smooth, easy, flat rings in which we ride today. I guess you've never been in the All Canada ring at Spruce! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Spooky hills and scary rolling terrain, for sure.

We have better footing today for two reasons. One, we don't want our horses to get hurt as they slip and slide around bad grass footing in the rain. I'll scratch out before I risk a client's very expensive showjumper on a class with crappy footing.

Two, we are asking more technical questions and more scope questions than in past years. To ask these questions fairly, we need good footing. Otherwise, we're just playing luck of the draw, and rewarding the lucky lottery winner who happens to not slip going through the techincal combinations.

Also, in the "good old days" of bad footing, it was often true that early numbers got better footing and later riders in the class ended up with much worse conditions. Not really fair, and not really testing the skill of horse or rider.

It does take a certain skill to jump around a course in the howling wind and slippery mud. But, I think we leave that mostly to the crazy eventers nowadays ( http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) and we really ask which horse/rider combination in the class is the best jumper.

I'm signing off now to go tell our horses that all these technical issues are in fact really easy so they should just "get with it" and stop making things so hard. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I and Cantour
Can Holsteiners jump? Watch Capone strut his stuff! (http://www.stallions.net/videos.html/)

noname
Feb. 12, 2004, 07:50 AM
[/QUOTE]
I'm signing off now to go tell our horses that all these technical issues are in fact really easy so they should just "get with it" and stop making things so hard. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
[/QUOTE]

that is just too funny....i think i might share that with my jumper, too!

Policy of Truth
Feb. 12, 2004, 08:45 AM
Just thought I'd mention that the link to TOB that our fearless OP provided cannot be accessed by the computer I'm using due to a block from "obscene and vulgar material". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Guess I'll stick with the classier COTH http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Let the games begin! (apologies to the moderators if this has an ill-effect... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

Katie
Feb. 12, 2004, 01:31 PM
Forgive my horrible memory if I get the name wrong, but does anyone remember the Jumping Derby in Newport, RI? I wonder how many horses of today could navigate it w/o rails down?

I do agree that the horses today are better bred JUMPERS. However, as Exitpoint said, you can teach a horse to answer technical questions. This should translate to our horses and/or riders being more "prepared" for the ring. So, if our horses are better bred and more "prepared", then why aren't the Americans winning on the international scene more often?

I'm sure many of the previous posters already had good answers to this question, but I have to add my 2 cents. It (might) be because you can't teach heart. It's either there or not. And it's an important ingredient in the ring... Otherwise, when you get down the "technical" line wrong (and this happens to everyone at some time or another), your horse will still try to get over it, in any way it can. Some of the most impressive (and well bred) jumpers of today don't have heart. These are the ones that give up when something is unfamiliar or uncomfortable or just plain too hard.

ALF
Feb. 12, 2004, 04:24 PM
Funny you should mention the Newport jumping derby in an argument with me over the good old days http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

shade
Feb. 13, 2004, 09:35 AM
Why is it funny that Katie should mention the Newport Jumping Derby to you...did you ride in the Derby?

Irish Ei's
Feb. 13, 2004, 09:45 AM
Silly question time. Is anyone here old enuf to remember what the origins of today's Hunter classes evolved from? Here's another...How many of these truly lovely WBs have even heard the expression "Hunter Pace"? Or, God Forbid, actually field hunted? Any pony I ever rode was ordered out of the Sear's catalogue and, before I have yet another grey-haired blonde moment, I really must thank ET for telling me that those horses that I leased for 5 years weren't AQHA registered, that they were actually the smartest, safest, roundest TB's on the face of the earth.
Grab your helmets gang let's see where this ride takes us!!!

" Desperately seeking Full-Cheek Copper Roller, size 5 1/2 or 5 3/4 !!! "

ALF
Feb. 13, 2004, 03:28 PM
Oh I dunno nuthin about no shows in in Newport. The only thing I know about road island is that Dumb and Dumber starts there!

Policy of Truth
Feb. 14, 2004, 03:45 PM
Hadn't thought of that movie in a while!

So what WAS the connection to the quote regarding the shows in Newport?

And what is your solution to your frustrations? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ALF
Feb. 14, 2004, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
Hadn't thought of that movie in a while!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why not?

Policy of Truth
Feb. 14, 2004, 06:12 PM
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Cuz it was soooo boy-silly! Though, it might be a good one to rent next time we have a "snow storm" here in NC http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ALF
Feb. 14, 2004, 06:57 PM
If that helpes you deal with your frustration, good!

Kryswyn
Feb. 14, 2004, 07:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And people still don't get it... AND GM doesn't "claim" to represent it. He DOES and HAS DONE for more than 20 years.

And you are who? and what? to this sport?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"

Coca-Cola
Feb. 14, 2004, 08:22 PM
1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before

False The grounds today are more perfectly manicured and the horses are used to working/competing on only the Most Perfect Footing. The outdoor courses hardly get chewed up, even in rain. Riders in the past had to deal with truly sloppy footing on a bad day, uneven/rough terrain on any given day and many of them had to make their own mounts; they didn't get their 7-figure horses handed to them.

2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past.

True but only because everything operates on a much larger scale today. NFL Football, NASCAR, Ice Skating, The Hole in the Ozone Layer, and human populations. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Your point is?

3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

True Yes, George has advocated the same things over the years; he is always an advocate of good horsemanship, not just good riding. The basic tenets of riding have not changed since Caprilli. Unfortunately, the changes that have occurred over the past 20 years are not often for the better; more they've come about as a result of laziness and not bothering to put the time in, or simply not caring how badly one looks when their ass sticks up in the air as they stand on too-long stirrups and lay on their horse's necks as one so often sees in the ring today. There are still good riders out there who make the effort to ride well and look the part (ex: McLain) who still retain classic equitation even over Puissance-sized fences.

Then there are the horses. Horses today don't get turned out and allowed to be horses. In the hunters, a free and forward pace (or for that matter, and possible sign of life) is penalized. Points chasing has turned horses into disposable objects. Push one hard until it breaks, then go buy a new one. Jumpers aren't much different. Used to be the same horse won regularly over a period of several years. Now they're lucky if they can play at the top for two.

4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense

False Not nonsense; it's painfully obvious. The Euros actually take the time to train their horses correctly. Americans need gadgets, the latest Mikmar bit, draw reins and whatever else to get it done yesterday. Laziness and instant gratification.Why go to the effort of training a superstar, when you can go to Europe and Buy One Today? Big Money Americans have ca$h to spend.

5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring.

True That goes along with #2. The more competitors you have, the less likely the same team will have multiple wins. Each mistake (inevitable when dealing with humans) has a greater negative impact, and decreases the odds of a successful trip. Statistics 101. Has nothing to do with the horses or riders being better today than they were before; it is a matter of sheer numbers.

[This message was edited by Coca-Cola on Feb. 14, 2004 at 10:31 PM.]

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 04:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Kryswyn:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And people still don't get it... AND GM doesn't "claim" to represent it. He DOES and HAS DONE for more than 20 years.

And you are who? and what? to this sport?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

~Kryswyn~
"Always look on the bright side of life, de doo, de doo de doo de doo"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wait. You said they STILL don't get it. Does that mean riders were lousy 20 years ago too? Is that when you rode?

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 05:09 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coca-Cola:
1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before

_False_ The grounds today are more perfectly manicured and the horses are used to working/competing on only the Most Perfect Footing. The outdoor courses hardly get chewed up, even in rain. Riders in the past had to deal with truly sloppy footing on a bad day, uneven/rough terrain on any given day and many of them had to make their own mounts; they didn't get their 7-figure horses handed to them.

2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past.

_True_ but only because everything operates on a much larger scale today. NFL Football, NASCAR, Ice Skating, The Hole in the Ozone Layer, and human populations. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Your point is?

3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically

_True_ Yes, George has advocated the same things over the years; he is always an advocate of good horsemanship, not just good riding. The basic tenets of riding have not changed since Caprilli. Unfortunately, the changes that have occurred over the past 20 years are not often for the better; more they've come about as a result of laziness and not bothering to put the time in, or simply not caring how badly one looks when their ass sticks up in the air as they stand on too-long stirrups and lay on their horse's necks as one so often sees in the ring today. There are still good riders out there who make the effort to ride well and look the part (ex: McLain) who still retain classic equitation even over Puissance-sized fences.

Then there are the horses. Horses today don't get turned out and allowed to be horses. In the hunters, a free and forward pace (or for that matter, and possible sign of life) is penalized. Points chasing has turned horses into disposable objects. Push one hard until it breaks, then go buy a new one. Jumpers aren't much different. Used to be the same horse won regularly over a period of several years. Now they're lucky if they can play at the top for two.

4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense

_False_ Not nonsense; it's painfully obvious. The Euros actually take the time to train their horses correctly. Americans need gadgets, the latest Mikmar bit, draw reins and whatever else to get it done yesterday. Laziness and instant gratification.Why go to the effort of training a superstar, when you can go to Europe and Buy One Today? Big Money Americans have ca$h to spend.

5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring.

_True_ That goes along with #2. The more competitors you have, the less likely the same team will have multiple wins. Each mistake (inevitable when dealing with humans) has a greater negative impact, and decreases the odds of a successful trip. Statistics 101. Has nothing to do with the horses or riders being better today than they were before; it is a matter of sheer numbers.

[This message was edited by Coca-Cola on Feb. 14, 2004 at 10:31 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

1) There are still rings with lousy footing. The horses don't struggle, they just get hurt more.

2) The point is that many average riders today could have succeeded at the high levels 20 yrs ago.

3) Reality check - Hunters go with more pace today than they did 20 years ago.

4) Fancy bits are hardly an American invention.

5) The best of the best are better now because there are more of them. Statistics 101.

tardy
Feb. 15, 2004, 07:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
5) The best of the best are better now because there are more of them. Statistics 101.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Joe Fargis is a better rider than he was 20 years ago. He is a technically better rider than any of the younger riders today. Unfortunately, above certain level, there is a law of diminishing returns as far as further improvement of riding and increased success in the show ring are concerned. The other two factors (the horse and the luck of the day) will increase in their importance. To put it simply: if you have in the ring one outstanding rider in the field that includes two or more very good riders willing to take chances and on comparable horses, the odds are against him.

Anyway, we still do not have another Rodney Jenkins and I don't expect him/her any time soon.

CBoylen
Feb. 15, 2004, 02:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coca-Cola:
4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense

_False_ Not nonsense; it's painfully obvious. The Euros actually take the time to train their horses correctly. Americans need gadgets, the latest Mikmar bit, draw reins and whatever else to get it done yesterday. Laziness and instant gratification.Why go to the effort of training a superstar, when you can go to Europe and Buy One Today? Big Money Americans have ca$h to spend.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Have you ever actually seen a top european rider? Almost all of them show with way more bit than any of the American competitors. Draw reins are used equally by both (and are not any indication of lesser skill in the first place).
The young horses in Europe are started by second-tier riders, rarely the top ones. They scout them out from the different barns, and then purchase them through sponsorship as an American rider would. If you have sat on a recent younger import, you must realize that they have VERY little training in the way of flatwork or even basics, and are generally unsophisticated at the jump. They have too many horses at most places to develop them properly early on.
By the way, they hardly ever sell us a superstar. Most of the horses our riders have been sucessful on were less sucessful in Europe, or not competing at the same level.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 03:29 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tardy:
Joe Fargis is a better rider than he was 20 years ago. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes. Better, and less successful.

Janet
Feb. 15, 2004, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 3) Reality check - Hunters go with more pace today than they did 20 years ago. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can't speak for 20 years ago (wasn't paying any attetion to hunters then) but hunters today DEFINITLEY go at a SLOWER pace than 30-40 years ago.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

ride2hounds
Feb. 15, 2004, 04:41 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:

1) There are still rings with lousy footing. The horses don't struggle, they just get hurt more. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Far fewer rings today have irregular or uneven footing although there are a few still out there, like Upperville. The horses get hurt more today because they're not used to dealing with irregular footing. If they're actually ridden out instead of bubble-wrapped, they'd not have problems when the ground is less than perfect.


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
3) Reality check - Hunters go with more pace today than they did 20 years ago. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Where were you 20 years ago? The horses that showed even as late as the early 80's used to keep a good pace that would have been respectable even in the hunt field. The pace the horses go at today is pathetic.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>4) Fancy bits are hardly an American invention.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No, but it seems we can't live without them, whether we need them or not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>5) The best of the best are better now because there are more of them. Statistics 101.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That sentence is incoherent. Try it again in English please. More of who? More riders? More top riders? and why does that make them better?

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 04:50 PM
I was here there and everywhere 20 years ago. How about you?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>5) The best of the best are better now because there are more of them. Statistics 101. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Pretty self-explanantory. What part don't you understand?

One place where you still find terrible riders is the hunt field. Those guys are awful.

JEP
Feb. 15, 2004, 05:05 PM
I second C. Boylen's notes about the young horses from Europe. I am the biggest WB fan out there, and having purchased my favorite horse over there and ridden at barn full of imports, I think it's a great way to find NICE horses at better prices...Most of ours double in price when they step off the plane.

That being said, I have also been over there to ride/look at horses, and let me tell you...Most of them come from huge "factory" type farms. The facilities are great, but those horses are not pets. They stay nice and fit because they spend lots of time in the walkers, but they are not usually started/schooled by the top riders.

All the recent imports I've sat on can jump the moon, and do it with style, but their flatwork leaves loads to be desired! The steering/brakes/transition thing is really NOT something that is fine-tuned, for the most part.

At all the farms I visited, they pretty much get on, do a quick warm-up, and start jumping. I am not criticizing them at all-they have tons of horses and little time, and know that most are being sold as "prospects". You go there, find the ones with the talent and the scope, and perfect the other stuff over here (flatwork, pace, distances, ground manners!!).

They don't just ship em all over as perfectly trained, well-tuned hunters, top eq horses, or high junior/A/Os. They take just as much work as any other youngster.

tosca4711
Feb. 15, 2004, 05:14 PM
ET's Premise 1: Courses in the past were easier
ET's Premise 2: Course today are harder
ET's Conclusion: Present day riders are better than those of 30 or so years ago.

This is a logical fallacy.

Even if the courses of the past were easier, you cannot draw the conclusion that riders of the past couldn't handle present day courses. They jumped what was presented to them, and there is no evidence that they would have been unable to jump today's more demanding courses.

To say that the fact that the old timers from 30 years ago are not competing now is proof that they weren't as good as present day riders is ridiculous. Some of these old timers would now be 50, 60, or more. Reflexes slow, stamina decreases and muscles weaken with age. That's why baseball players, hockey players etc. retire in their 40s. Even opera singers retire in their 50s (classical singing is a very physical endeavor.

Tosca

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 05:17 PM
But we already established that at least some of them are better now than ever. Fargis and Millar, to name two.

tosca4711
Feb. 15, 2004, 05:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
But we already established that at least some of them are better now than ever. Fargis and Millar, to name two.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Millar's case it is because the competition is not as good. He used to ride against Jenkins, Murphy, Day, and Elder etc. Now he is riding against John Pearce.

Tosca

[This message was edited by tosca4711 on Feb. 16, 2004 at 05:57 PM.]

I wouldn't want to offend Pearce by calling him Pierce.

[This message was edited by tosca4711 on Feb. 16, 2004 at 05:59 PM.]

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 05:29 PM
say what?

tosca4711
Feb. 15, 2004, 05:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tosca4711:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
But we already established that at least some of them are better now than ever. Fargis and Millar, to name two.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In Millar's case it is because the competition is not as good. He used to ride against Jenkins, Murphy, Day, and Elder etc. Now he is riding against John Pierce.

Tosca<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

... and his ilk.

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 05:58 PM
Well that sheds no light at all on what you mean. John Pearce or not, Millar was the best rider in the world in the 80's. He's not even the best Canadian now. And Canada stinks even worse than the USA.

tosca4711
Feb. 15, 2004, 06:09 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tosca4711:
Yes, Yes, Yes! Present Canadian riders stink. We agree finally.

Tosca<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 06:12 PM
They stink by today's standards.

In any case, the rider isnt nearly as important as the horse. And the horses today are superior in every way.

JEP
Feb. 15, 2004, 06:36 PM
I think that is a totally ignorant statement. Canada doesn't have quite as many riders in the top ranks right now, but the ones that are up there are JUST as competitive as the rest, and it's not just Ian or John...

Hello-Karen Cudmore, anyone? And speaking of top horses, have you ever seen Conejo? Ashley Vince, Keean White, Eric Lamaze, Erynn Ballard, Melissa Brown, Frankie Chessler, Mac Cone, Beth Underhill...

Oh, wait, and what's his name...Oh, right. Harold Chopping

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 06:37 PM
Ashley Vince is especially impressive.

Mouse2713
Feb. 15, 2004, 06:38 PM
It is really interesting to me that most of the people who are talking about how the grand prix riders of today "stink", dont ride at that level. In my book the people that ride at that level are amazingly good riders, even the ones at the lower end of the spectrum.

And, before you start to make comments about how poorly people ride, I would think that it would be a good idea to get to that level yourself, and be successful. Then, when you have experience at that level, you would be qualified to comment on the shortcomings of others.

And as far as Joe Fargis being less successful now than he was before. Where did that ignorant comment come from. I have actually sat outside the schooling ring at a west palm beach horse show and watched him ride, wishing that I had half his talent and knowledge. What do you consider success? I think almost anyone in the country would die of happiness to have Mr. Fargis ride their horse, that is anyone with a bit of common sense.

Famous, stupendously talented horses come and go. Lots of riders only get one in a lifetime, but it doesnt mean that a rider is less successful because they arent wiping up the grand prix divisions. Success in riding is defined by your standing in the community, your knowledge, your ability to turn out well trained horses and riders, and the ability to learn more even when you have already reached the highest levels in the industry. By this definition, both Mr. Fargis, and Mr. Morris are among the most successful in not just the country, but in the world.

I might add that Mr. Morris has been giving clinics all over the world, to riders from many different countries, and he goes there because he has been invited by some of the supreme horsemen in those countries. I think I might put more faith in the judgement of people who have been there, done that, and been successful at it. If our training system, essentially created by George Morris and Burt DeNemethy, is good enough for them, then it is good enough for me.

ALF
Feb. 15, 2004, 06:40 PM
You don't get ribbons in the schooling ring.

LimoWrek
Feb. 15, 2004, 06:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Coca-Cola:
1) With the possible exception of heigh
4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense

_False_ Not nonsense; it's painfully obvious. The Euros actually take the time to train their horses correctly. Americans need gadgets, the latest Mikmar bit, draw reins and whatever else to get it done yesterday. Laziness and instant gratification.Why go to the effort of training a superstar, when you can go to Europe and Buy One Today? Big Money Americans have ca$h to spend.
[This message was edited by Coca-Cola on Feb. 14, 2004 at 10:31 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Um, that bit came from Europe. They jump their horses at the age of 2. They don't really do more training on horses than we do, they just throw away the bad ones faster.

----
Limo Wrek.

tosca4711
Feb. 15, 2004, 06:53 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Mouse2713:
It is really interesting to me that most of the people who are talking about how the grand prix riders of today "stink", dont ride at that level. In my book the people that ride at that level are amazingly good riders, even the ones at the lower end of the spectrum [Quote].

I'm sorry, but you don't have to compete at that level to know what good riding is. I can judge whether or not someone is a good classical singer even if I can't hit high C. I can tell if someone is a good ball player even if I can't hit a home run in the majors.

Tosca

Paloma
Feb. 15, 2004, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Pretty self-explanantory. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not to those of us in the real world. To which group are you addressing this?

Bluesy
Feb. 15, 2004, 09:17 PM
I have only one thing to say. And that is this:

People have to talk about something just to keep their voice boxes in working order so'll they'll have good voice boxes in case there's ever anything really meaningful to say

~Kurt Vonnegut
(Take in note I have only read up to page 4, and that was enough)

http://community.webshots.com/user/littlerainintheface

"Ford, you're turning into a penguin. Stop it."
~Douglas Adams

Cliques: The Mighty TB, OTTB, Albertan, Canadian, Plain Bay TBs, I-Love-Flatwork, QH, Artist, 40's Muzak, Barn Troll,Horses at Home, Tack Hoarder, YCMH!

Grasshopper
Feb. 15, 2004, 10:03 PM
I'm sorry, I absolutely cannot post a serious reply if the OP does not seem serious in the first, third or last place.

I'll get my pantyhose and go for a beer run--anyone else want to join me? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Janet? You know what I'm talking about...

fernie fox
Feb. 15, 2004, 10:40 PM
Results from Ocala.Looks like the Canadians are doing pretty well.

Placing
Horse
Rider
Owner

1
PROMISE ME
IAN MILLAR
IAN MILLAR / MILLAR BROOKE FARM AGENT

2
KATHLEEN 16
HAROLD CHOPPING
SILVER OAK STABLES

3
QUENDO
AARON VALE
TOWN CREEK INVESTMENT

4
IN STYLE
IAN MILLAR
SUSAN GRANGE / LOTHLORIEN FARM

6
CYBELLA
MAC CONE
SOUTHERN WAYS

7
NEANDER
ANDRE THIEME
REDFIELD FARM LLC

8
KARTOUSCH
MARY LISA LEFFLER
ROLLING ACRES / MCLAIN WARD

9
KARAT
JONATHON MILLAR
JOHNATHON MILLAR

10
PROMISED LAND
DEREK PETERSEN
DEREK / ANITA PETERSON

11
MELINDA
MAC CONE
SOUTHERN WAYS

12
POP SOCKS
AARON VALE
TEMECULA VALLEY EQ CENTER

13
ENTERPRISE
MARK JUNGHERR
R A FRANCOEUR

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

tosca4711
Feb. 16, 2004, 05:23 AM
I think the quality of riding has gone down all over North America. No so good riders are competing with not so good riders.
Tosca

tosca4711
Feb. 16, 2004, 05:31 AM
I've decided to bow out of this thread (again) as ET is obviously trying to anger people with his smart a** comments. He is trying to stir things up rather than have an intelligent discussion. It seems to me that ET is a 15 year old (mentally if not chronologically) male. I surmise this from his "dude" "say what", and profile.

Tosca

ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 06:25 AM
Gord Morris is a smartass male. He's just been at it so long people don't recognize his antics for what they are.

Irish Ei's
Feb. 16, 2004, 07:07 AM
I agree with Tosca. My bottom line is this...A judgement is an OPINION. ET, stop wasting our time and talent here. Comes the day you can show me your hard-earned judge's card I'll consider your OPINIONS. What??? No judge's card. Well then you'd better get crackin'. Get your card and then you can rightfully stand at ringside and eliminate all who don't measure up to your standards. Oh, wait, I mean the standards of the governing body. In a class full of wing flapping, canter bouncing, wrong diagonals someone's gonna get the blue. In a ring full of Fargis, Millar, Matz, Kursinski,Jenkins,etc. someone's not gonna pin. BTW please send a video of you getting on an OTTB 3 yr. old just off the trailer!!!

" Desperately seeking Full-Cheek Copper Roller, size 5 1/2 or 5 3/4 !!! "

lauriep
Feb. 16, 2004, 08:02 AM
Are you still feeding this troll??

Laurie

tecumsea
Feb. 16, 2004, 08:23 AM
After reading this thred, I thought I would chime in. We have not had a troll on the event board for a while, so I need to poke at something.
G.M. is quite the horseman along with all the other names mentioned. I was able to watch Him at a clinic in Ocala with the event riders. Someone who can cross the lines from one sport into another, help those horses and riders inprove within their sport is quite the horseman.
Now for the success part. If you look twenty years ago the top of the top consisted of a select few. In both Jumpers and eventing. Now a days, we have more and more riders at the top. Easier competitions or more oppertunities to get there, well I do not know that part. So the big guys have to compete against more for the top than before. Anyone can have the on day at any point. The blues do not tell the success, it is the number of horses that they can get to the top . But what do I know, I just drink,flip,drink,drop my way through competitions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

pwynnnorman
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> 2) The point is that many average riders today could have succeeded at the high levels 20 yrs ago. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Did the troll say this? I don't remember and I really don't want to respond to that disappointing creature.

But someone ELSE did imply that "all" GP riders are good riders--in a "they MUST be" way--and that you can't judge them unless you've ridden at that level.

Well, I wish I could come up with a horse name, but if you have the money to buy it, you can indeed "ride at that level" (not that all levels of the GP are equal). So, by implication, does that mean that if you can BUY it, you must be a good rider?

Actually, given how many lessons, great trainers, wonderful facilities, superb practice and show horses, etc., etc., your money can buy, if you can afford the best, then, yeah, you WOULD have to be a pretty sorry citizen to be a really bad AND really wealthy GP rider.

So, maybe its true afterall (that if you ride the GP, you must be a good rider)?

Sportponies Unlimited
Specializing in fancy, athletic, 3/4-TB ponies.
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com
http://www.sportponiesunlimited.com/Sportponies_Unlimited_stallions.html

ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:22 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Irish Ei's:
I agree with Tosca. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She's the one who says Millars, Lamaze and the rest of the supporting cast stink. Why don't you ask about her judges card?

SunshineGA
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:25 AM
When you get the GP you can't just have a good horse... you have to know how to ride it.

Put somebody who's used to driving a car with no power steering or power brakes and putting them in a ferrari... see what happens.

A GP rider and a GP horse msut be able to work together, the horse can't do it all on his own... no matter how much $$$ you spent on it.

My trainer is a GP rider and we have had this discussion before. So no I'm not at that level to judge but I have a lot of advice and conversations from someone who is at that level.

"When life gives you limes, make margaritas!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Member of the IHSA clique

http://community.webshots.com/user/sunshinengcsu

ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:26 AM
Buying your way into the GP ring has always been an option. It just costs more now.

SunshineGA
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:28 AM
Just a point to ponder...

How many of you out there ARE GP riders that are saying you only need be a decent rider and rich to be a GP rider. If not how many of you consider yourself good enough and *brave* enough to ride a GP course. If you were offered a chance to ride a GP horse over a GP course, would YOU be able to do it?

I consider myself a decent rider, but even given the chance to ride a *made* GP horse I don't think I could do it without a TON of practice... or even.. ever!

"When life gives you limes, make margaritas!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Member of the IHSA clique

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Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tecumsea:
I was able to watch Him at a clinic in Ocala with the event riders.... But what do I know, I just drink,flip,drink,drop my way through competitions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So now we're referring to him with a capital H?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

SunshineGA
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:29 AM
And not all GP riders *own* their GP horses.

"When life gives you limes, make margaritas!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Member of the IHSA clique

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ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Are you still feeding this troll??

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think Irish Ei's is a troll. Just misguided.

JEP
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:34 AM
Sure, some GP horses are more difficult than others. The fact remains that you have to be a darn good rider to get around one of those courses. Even on the best horse.

You miss a distance at 3'6? No prob. Horse chips, you're fine. Miss at 4'3? On a good horse, probably still ok-maybe it'll stop. Miss at 5'? You don't. Those riders can't miss at that height, because if they do, they crash and burn...Not to mention how incredibly technical those courses are-every step counts.

Kachoo
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:36 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
Are you still feeding this troll??

Laurie<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think Irish Ei's is a troll. Just misguided.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agggggghhhhhh http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif!!!!! I'm going to go make myself something to drink and spend an hour or so reading this thread. It's the first day of reading week, and I don't want to do anything constructive or mentally stimulating http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

MistyBlue
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:41 AM
Make something strong Kachoo, it's painful in this thread, LOL! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
(although methinks this is someone just having fun by part time trolling instead of really believing what they're saying)



(I hope)

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
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JEP
Feb. 16, 2004, 10:46 AM
I'm sorry, I just must add...

For all the yipping and yapping that ET seems to do, he certainly stayed quite about the multiple Canadian victories this weekend! Hmm.

I'd just like to say that as a pretty new member of these boards (though clearly an ADDICT-do they make a COTH patch?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), the troll phenomenon can be really frustrating!

I get all excited to read up on the progress of some of these really stimulating threads where people are really putting out intelligent, thoughtful responses...and then I open it, and the new posts are one-liners talking about why GM can't ride a stick horse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I'm sorry if this is not exactly on topic with the thread, but this thread is clearly a circus act anyway, so I figured I'd might as well get that off my chest. Thanks for listening!

starman
Feb. 16, 2004, 11:49 AM
A big THANK YOU from the Eventers!! Free entertainment to go with our beer :burp:

thanks again!!

"For things that we must learn to do before we can do them we learn by DOING THEM!" -Denny Emerson

Black Market Radio
Feb. 16, 2004, 02:09 PM
Yep, it's a circus act and ET is the freak show!

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
The Walrus was Paul...

2ndyrgal
Feb. 16, 2004, 02:42 PM
ET,
your quote of "there are more of the best of the best, so they're better" statistics 101. Hmmm. Maybe some of todays riders are just the "best of a bad lot". Let's see, the record times for racehorses, hasn't gone down significantly for decades, and horses no longer have long term careers. No triple crown winners every year, which, statistics say, should happen MUCH more often than it does. Horses in the hunter ring have for the most part, a pace that is pitiful at best. Here is my challenge to you, and any other Gm bashing wannabees. Take your horse outside. Bareback. Now gallop. Downhill. If you get back (without walking cause you got scared or fell off), then trot him up to a 2'6" fence (your choice) drop the reins, and jump it with your arms outstretched. You are still bareback by the way. If you can successfully complete this little exercise, then let us know when you've ridden either first flight in a hunt or done a Grand Prix. You can only look down at people from a superior position. An actual one, not one that is only in your mind. It seems to me that the people who don't hold the "old masters" in high regard are the ones who on their best day, wouldn't even begin to measure up. and if it's a troll, I needed to vent anyway, parade of possums today.

Grasshopper
Feb. 16, 2004, 03:01 PM
MistyBlue? Starman? 'nother beer? Anyone else?

It's a rainy day and we don't have cable...

*slurp* *eeeerp* 'scuse me!

ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 03:21 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jep:
I'm sorry, I just must add...

For all the yipping and yapping that ET seems to do, he certainly stayed quite about the multiple Canadian victories this weekend! Hmm.

I'd just like to say that as a pretty new member of these boards (though clearly an ADDICT-do they make a COTH patch?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), the troll phenomenon can be really frustrating!

I get all excited to read up on the progress of some of these really stimulating threads where people are really putting out intelligent, thoughtful responses...and then I open it, and the new posts are one-liners talking about why GM can't ride a stick horse. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

I'm sorry if this is not exactly on topic with the thread, but this thread is clearly a circus act anyway, so I figured I'd might as well get that off my chest. Thanks for listening!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lucky for the riders at WEF all the Canadians are up in Ocala. Beating each other.

ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 03:23 PM
Statistically, there should be fewer Triple Crown winners now. Anyway, it's a lousy comparison because there are fewer horses racing every year.

ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 03:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
Make something strong Kachoo, it's painful in this thread, LOL! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
(although methinks this is someone just having fun by part time trolling instead of really believing what they're saying)



(I hope)

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
Auto Release Clique
Connecticut Clique
Helmet Nazi Clique
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I certainly don't need to use my imagination to have fun with this group. Reality is more than enough entertainment here.

Bumpkin
Feb. 16, 2004, 03:28 PM
So according to Sidelines the Oare's have started showing at WEF now that they have purchased a place in Wellington. They use to show at Ocala.

"Remember: You're A Customer In A Service Industry."
"Proud Member Of The I Love Dublin, Starman Babies,and SunnieFlax Cliques"

2ndyrgal
Feb. 16, 2004, 03:30 PM
Fewer horses racing now. You mean this week, this year or this decade. I believe it was Mr. Twain who said "better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt".

ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 03:34 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2ndyrgal:
Fewer horses racing now. You mean this week, this year or this decade. I believe it was Mr. Twain who said "better to be silent and thought a fool than to speak and remove all doubt".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All of the above. I'm not really sure if thats true, and I'm too lazy to check, but there are a lot fewer racetracks. It's still a lousy comparison either way.

And what does your pointless challenge have to do with this discussion? If I can balance a ball on my nose like a seal, will it help you get over the fact that I'm right?

CBoylen
Feb. 16, 2004, 03:51 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:
So according to Sidelines the Oare's have started showing at WEF now that they have purchased a place in Wellington. They use to show at Ocala.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I've got to ask, what was this post in reference to?

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

subk
Feb. 16, 2004, 03:55 PM
I should really pop open a beer instead of posting here...

I am always surprised when the less-than-stellar performance of the US in international competiton comes up that nobody ever mentions the most obvious reason: The US horse and riders RARELY compete under FEI rules.

How can you expect to be competitve when you don't prepare under the same circumstances/rules at which you want to be successful? We choose an Olympic team not knowing which horses can be successfull over the long term completely drug free. There is a big d@mn difference from going drug free for selection then the Big Show than having to regularly over the course of time produce successful results drug free. (I'm talking legal levels here.)

CBoylen
Feb. 16, 2004, 05:23 PM
Nearly all, if not all, of the classes in which one can earn their certificate of capability to do the trials are FEI rules classes. I really think we've addressed that issue. Our FL classes have been run under FEI rules for years, and our top horses show at Spruce Meadows and in Europe regularly. I'd say the best horses, our team horses, rarely show WITHOUT FEI rules, unless they're out at a lesser class for a school.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

tecumsea
Feb. 16, 2004, 05:33 PM
Yes I am refering to GM as Him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif And why has the triple crown been brought into this. Arrgg confused from the head traumas of eventing, more ber, more beer!!!!!

Jane
Feb. 16, 2004, 06:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
Yep, it's a circus act and ET is the freak show! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know Devildog, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps you have a crush on ET. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MistyBlue
Feb. 16, 2004, 07:05 PM
Grasshopper, even though I don't drink...pass a beer over here. Better yet, forget the beer, pass the pantyhose, I'll wear those. (yep, I lurk on the eventing board, LOL)

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
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Black Market Radio
Feb. 16, 2004, 07:06 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jane:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
Yep, it's a circus act and ET is the freak show! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know Devildog, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps you have a crush on ET. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh baby. Oh baby. Oh.

Devilpups (http://f2.pg.photos.yahoo.com/angelgregory87)
The Walrus was Paul...

tecumsea
Feb. 16, 2004, 07:19 PM
Time for the real party to start now that the pantyhose are out.!

ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 08:28 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jane:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by devildog87:
Yep, it's a circus act and ET is the freak show! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You know Devildog, I'm starting to wonder if perhaps you have a crush on ET. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm just hoping she hasnt already named her twins George and Morris.

As for the circus aspect of it all, I think we've established there's a sucker borne every minute.

MistyBlue
Feb. 16, 2004, 08:35 PM
As long as she doesn't name them Electric and Tape. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Yes, PT Barnum said there was a sucker born every minute. Now that your minute is expiring...what are you going to do next? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Tecumsea, you got your pantyhose on?

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
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ALF
Feb. 16, 2004, 08:38 PM
Maybe have a good laugh at your remaining 14 minutes.

tecumsea
Feb. 17, 2004, 08:16 AM
Yup my pantyhose are on, as for the remaining 14 mins. pop, fiz, gulp, beellch? AHH much better. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

shade
Feb. 17, 2004, 09:28 AM
So ET what is your claim to fame...how on earth did you get to be sooo knowledgeable about GP's etc..do you ride in them? And as far as Joe Fargis is concerened "you don't get ribbons in the schooling area" give me a break...he has already proven himself over and over again..I wonder what ET has to say about Rodney and Michael Matz?????

MistyBlue
Feb. 17, 2004, 12:11 PM
This might read a little muffled due to the pantyhose on my head...but apparently ET's been showing all these people up in the show rings. ET's been awfully quiet about our female GP riders...I'm wondering if she thinks they stink also? Because I'd guess that even with her very unfortunate injury, Margie could still beat the TS's off of ET or...ummmmm....all the rest of us on here, LOL!
BTW...are my 14 minutes up? Hard to see the clock through these nylons.

Equine Crash Test Dummy
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ALF
Feb. 17, 2004, 03:48 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shade:
So ET what is your claim to fame?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can tell what's real and what's fiction. Only in the exciting world of equestrian horse jumping competition would that constitute a claim to fame.

ALF
Feb. 17, 2004, 03:50 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
BTW...are my 14 minutes up?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A loooong time ago. Even in dog minutes.

MistyBlue
Feb. 17, 2004, 03:59 PM
Oh good, it's tiring being famous. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

So your claim to fame is knowing the difference between fact and fiction? Wow, I'm underwhelmed.

Equine Crash Test Dummy
Member of: Non-GPA Clique
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ALF
Feb. 17, 2004, 04:07 PM
Well like I said, it's not something that would be so special in normal circumstances.

CuriousGeorge
Feb. 17, 2004, 04:48 PM
Hidey Ho, Electric Tape!

(Like Ididn'tseeitcoming...) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

Doyouevenride?

ALF
Feb. 17, 2004, 05:28 PM
nope, but 2 outta 3 aint bad. nRT.

shade
Feb. 18, 2004, 06:53 AM
So let me get this straight ET..you don't even ride!!!! And am I the only one that for the life of me not follow ET's logic??

ALF
Feb. 18, 2004, 07:02 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>am I the only one that for the life of me not follow ET's logic?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No. There are at least 5 or 6 of you.

Two outta three aint bad, but 7/8 is even worse.

shade
Feb. 18, 2004, 07:15 AM
sigh...so ET do you ride? Or better yet have you ever even SAT on a horse let alone ride a GP course (and live to tell about it)?

ALF
Feb. 18, 2004, 07:20 AM
Sorry, I cant answer that here. No advertising allowed. This thread isnt about me anyway.

Those of you who are so fascinated by me can PT me for more info though!

ChagrinSaddlery
Feb. 18, 2004, 07:32 AM
I'm sorry guys but I am finding ET to be very amusing. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Don't just appear in life, STAR in it!

http://community.webshots.com/album/95482669jtPjKw?504

shade
Feb. 18, 2004, 07:33 AM
no it isn't about you but you seem to be an "expert" on GP's, GM etc. so...I was just curious as to where you aquired your ah-hem "facts" regarding the horse industry. Advertising??? You lost me on that one...

shade
Feb. 18, 2004, 07:35 AM
num1train me too!!!! But I take issue with people that spout off on subjects they have no first hand knowledge of.

Riggs
Feb. 18, 2004, 08:29 AM
Dont sweat it! Read between the lines: ET is simply pulling your leg - this is a troll Master at work!
ET WANTS you to keep being frustrated and making him/her the master! It's a power thing. It's all a sham and a big joke.
Didnt you notice that when anyone got him/her into a corner with a point, he/she deftly refocussed and never answered?
It has nothing to do with right, wrong, knowledge or no knowlege. It is about control and being the centre of attention and playing a big joke on everyone.
Everyone else has signed off because they have realized this.
Let it go!

Kachoo
Feb. 18, 2004, 08:49 AM
Indeed - ET is the Puppet Master http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

Cheers,
Susie
http://www.kachoom.com

"That's it! You people have stood in my way long enough. I'm going to clown college!" ~Homer Simpson

shade
Feb. 18, 2004, 09:04 AM
Riggs..I couldn't agree with you more..but it was more fun than the work I should be doing. I know the troll doesn't have a leg to stand on..maybe it will fall over..humpty dumpty.. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ALF
Feb. 18, 2004, 04:16 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by shade:
no it isn't about you but you seem to be an "expert" on GP's, GM etc. so...I was just curious as to where you aquired your ah-hem "facts" regarding the horse industry. Advertising??? You lost me on that one...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Then why don't you challenge some of the facts that you seem to think are in dispute. I have said all along I dont show (which makes me just like most of the people who've posted on this thread). And I've provided an entirely satisfactory answer to your slightly more sensible question about what my claim to fame is. Please try to pay attention.

By my count, five people with something resembling involvement in horse showing have posted here. Two of them agree with me whole-heartedly, one chimes in every time one of my detractors says something that's factually incorrect, one made an appearance to poke fun at devildog, and one came by to share a laugh about the persistent troll accusation. You've never heard of me, but I still know something about horse shows. You can deal with that, can't you?

I'm not a troll - if I was this thread would have died by now.

shade
Feb. 19, 2004, 09:01 AM
sorry ET I can't be bothered with this nonsense anymore...

ALF
Feb. 19, 2004, 03:35 PM
I guess everyone acknowledges that I'm right then.

Just because your insults are lame doesnt make me a troll, you know.

bigbay
Feb. 19, 2004, 03:56 PM
Out of curiousity, why'd you specify Electric Tape, when you finally decided to specify?

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

ALF
Feb. 19, 2004, 04:01 PM
Another question about me!

bigbay
Feb. 19, 2004, 04:04 PM
I know. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif It's almost enough to make you feel like Sally Field, isn't it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Dude, answer the question. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

ALF
Feb. 19, 2004, 04:11 PM
I guess its just because I'm sticky and cheap.

Out of curiosity, did you have fun reading every one of my previous posts on your little fact-finding mission?

bigbay
Feb. 19, 2004, 04:16 PM
Aww, you flatter yourself! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Isn't everyone else doing enough of that for you?

I was around at the beginning on that thread, so no need to fact find. You've dusted some of the chips off your shoulders since you came out of the woodwork, which is nice. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

ALF
Feb. 19, 2004, 04:18 PM
Oh I figured you'd read them all anyway. Too bad. You might have learned a thing or two.

bigbay
Feb. 19, 2004, 04:18 PM
And I think it's electrician's tape that's sticky, also call electrical tape. Electric tape I've always thought referred to electric fencing, the webbed tape which isn't sticky. But they're all cheap! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

TC Manhattan
Feb. 19, 2004, 05:57 PM
Hey, what ever happened to the old v. new debate?

"Have no expectations, only abundant expectancy."

ALF
Feb. 19, 2004, 06:02 PM
I prevailed as usual.

TC Manhattan
Feb. 19, 2004, 06:24 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
I prevailed as usual.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Prevailed at WHAT?

"Have no expectations, only abundant expectancy."

ALF
Feb. 19, 2004, 08:26 PM
The answer my friend is blowin in the wind
The answer is blowin in the wind.

findeight
Feb. 20, 2004, 01:04 AM
Oh my..what a thread of the year contender here. And an enjoyable one at that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif..and I do have a life despite the time of this post...just a bit of insomnia after a 14 hour day on the grindstone and getting home after midnite.

Strikes me that this isn't all that trollish. Maybe a challenge to defend your opinions.
No right or wrong as long as you know why you feel the way you do.

If you feel strongly because of your own experience or observations? I don't see that ET has been that negative.

However if you are jumping on a bandwagon because you read it on this BB or parrot repeated posts on here as if they were your original ideas????

After all, synchophant is definatly the wrong word for GM...but some who blindly follow because they think it PC or read it on BB as the way to go??? Well...that is the definition.

So..no opinion is wrong if you can support it and discussion of various opinions is what many of us used to like on this BB.
This thread has actually revived real discussion and proved entertaining as well as thought provoking, although it has suffered some detours.

I actually think ET and his/her friend the German, Martin Gale, have given this BB a much needed kick in the posterior away from piling on posts into asking posters to defend their beliefs and positions.

Heck, it's 3 am and I may regret this later but..hey, ET..I'll buy you a beer or six sometime for reinvigorating us.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

stephanie
Feb. 20, 2004, 02:46 PM
I &lt;heart&gt; ET.

ALF
Feb. 20, 2004, 04:22 PM
I &lt;heart&gt; Erin for closing that other thread. Now people can get back to talking about ME!!!!

TC Manhattan
Feb. 20, 2004, 04:56 PM
Hey, guys, I think you've lost me here...I understood the first 9 pages...what happened? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

"Have no expectations, only abundant expectancy."

Izabella
Feb. 20, 2004, 06:27 PM
ET is playing everyone like a fiddle..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

ALF
Feb. 20, 2004, 07:29 PM
The trolls are pretending that I dont exist.

Paloma
Feb. 20, 2004, 07:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:
The trolls are pretending that I dont exist.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The trolls are smart

ALF
Feb. 20, 2004, 07:58 PM
ah yes but you are smarter!

Paloma
Feb. 20, 2004, 08:03 PM
Yes, but unlike ET, the trolls aren't pretenders.

ALF
Feb. 20, 2004, 08:15 PM
You're right. They're talking heads.

ssaymssik
Feb. 20, 2004, 08:18 PM
Back to the topic ladies and gentlemen.

1) With the possible exception of height, every aspect of a big time jumper course is more challenging today than ever before
Yes, they have to do SOMETHING to get those dumbloods to pick up their draft-ass feet

2) The North American horse show industry operates today on a much larger scale than at any time in the past
Not necessarily. Economic insecurity has led to the less monetarily fortunate having to be more conservative in the number of shows they go to while the wealthy just go and go and go.

3) George Morris has been preaching essentially the same message to the general public for at least 20 years, even though the sport he claims to represent has changed drastically
Yes yes YES!!! When he figured out that the crest release was becoming a crutch however, he changed his tune a little http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

4) The idea that the proliferation of European horses in the show ring somehow illustrates a deterioration of riding skills is nonsense
Yes, they only sell us their garbage which makes us better riders... IF we happen to beat them.

5) Many riders who competed successfully in the 1980's are still showing today, and even though they are better riders now than they were 20 years ago, they are less successful in the show ring.
Getting old sucks. They probably have changed their perspectives that winning isn't everything, and channel their positive energies in more productive manner - cheating gets old too.

Love you ET!

Stupid people bug me.
STOP!!! Where's that sense of humor???

ALF
Feb. 20, 2004, 08:22 PM
I cant even figure out if that is supposed to support my view or what. There should be a test or something to post here.

ssaymssik
Feb. 20, 2004, 08:36 PM
No,

I agree with some of it.

Stupid people bug me.
STOP!!! Where's that sense of humor???

ALF
Feb. 20, 2004, 08:37 PM
Oh Ok.

I read you.

ET

ssaymssik
Feb. 20, 2004, 08:41 PM
Sig line gotcha, didn'tit?

Stupid people bug me.
STOP!!! Where's that sense of humor???

ALF
Feb. 20, 2004, 08:48 PM
yes. I did not see it coming.

Policy of Truth
Feb. 20, 2004, 10:12 PM
"I &lt;heart&gt; Erin for closing that other thread. Now people can get back to talking about ME!!!!"

ET, the more you "talk", the more I want to meet you someday! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

ChagrinSaddlery
Feb. 21, 2004, 10:39 AM
ET you are the bomb! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I don't think your troll at all. ET you are the disruptive drop in the bb's sea of tranquility.
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Don't just appear in life, STAR in it!

http://community.webshots.com/album/95482669jtPjKw?504