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View Full Version : What would you expect to pay for a high junior A/O jumper horse?



Calvaro V
Apr. 28, 2004, 10:14 AM
I know that the sky is the limit on this one and that there are so many variables, but I'm just trying to get an idea of what you may pay for a horse of this quality. Probably not a GP horse, but a very good 4'6 horse.

I'm just curious more than anything.

zedcadjna
Apr. 28, 2004, 10:41 AM
A yr ago I went w/ someone to look at high jr a/o horses and they was being offered at anywhere from $35,000 to $200,000.. It really depends on their show record..They got theirs for $65,000 w/ a yr under him in the show ring.. So that should give you an idea.. Good Luck!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/zedcadjna

America's Pride
Apr. 28, 2004, 10:50 AM
I do not know it this is much help or not but here it goes .... 2 years ago when I went shopping for one they showed us horses from 20k - 70k. These were horses that had been showed at A horse shows. There was a 30k horse that I tried that was a OTTB that could jump the moon but, was really hard to ride on the flat and was underweight.

eclipse
Apr. 28, 2004, 10:51 AM
Up here, you'd probably need at least $100,000CDN.

"Don't bother me; I'm living happily ever after!"

Box-of-Rox
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:15 AM
a nice, ribboning at top-A-shows, not too difficult to ride, but not going to pack your butt around (not that anything really can) but not necessarily the winner jr jumper here is like 150K

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

Calvaro V
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:24 AM
What about a horse that is smaller than say 16'1? does that count against it? I hear that many people do not want to buy a smaller horse. For me, it's not an issue as long as the horse can make the strides, but I know that some people object. Any comment on that? I like to buy a horse that fits me and not worry about its size, but that's just me.

A/O Jumper
Apr. 28, 2004, 11:38 AM
Depends on age, experience, scope. I would say anywhere from $35,000-$85,000...more if it is younger and go up to the prixs and stuff. It all depends on who you buy from and how good you want it.

Why is there so much month left at the end of the money?

Box-of-Rox
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:13 PM
calvaro-depends on its handiness. if a horse is really turny and can make the inside turns and has the scope to jump a 4'6"+ fence off of one crooked stride, then it might even be worth more. most people like bigger horses, though,because you have a larger resale market (small people can ride big horses, but not the other way around always), and not all small horses can get inside, but even a large strided small horse might not be able to *leave out* strides, only get down long lines or take the lesser option at a halfstride. Big horses, when they cant get insdie, can cover a lot of ground going around.

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

Calvaro V
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:26 PM
I'm assuming that horses in Europe of such quality can be purchased for much less.

Exitpoint
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:31 PM
A horse that can jump a legitimate 4 foot 6 (1.40 meter) course with an amateur in the saddle and leave all the rails up is not going to sell for less than $125k unless there are other problems of the major sort lurking in there (soundness, bad temerament, old age, etc.).

However, there are very few amateurs who actually ride at 1.4 meters. Many say the do, or that they are going to. But, look at those classes at actual shows and you'll notice two things. One, there are many times more riders in the smaller amateur classes. Two, these classes are rarely if ever 1.4 meters. Except at Indio, for example, a "4 foot 6" amateur classs might have one 4 foot 5 vertical and the rest of the fences substantially smaller. Make them bigger, a real 1.40 meters, and outside of Indio (or the Florida circuits), the ammies start falling off left and right. Course designers are not wanting that, nor are show organizers!

So a horse that is only going to need to jump "amateur 4 foot 6" (which is more like 1.3 meters, in actuality) is probably in the $75k range.

I get more than a few ammies coming through the barn who want to "jump the big fences." Before we send them off seeking a horse that can do 1.40 meters properly (let alone bigger stuff), we sit them on one of the boys and have them actually jump this height fence. Oxers, not verticals. It doesn't take a magical ride to get Capone over 1.4 meter oxer!

Most every one realizes that they have years of work to do before they can really ride at 1.4 meters or higher. It's far better to ride at 1.3 or 1.2 well and build a foundation than it is to move up to 1.4 and flail miserably. It's also a waste of money (and equine talent) to take a 1.5 meter horse and run him silly around 1.4 meter classes with a frightened ammie in the saddle.

Anyway, my $0.02.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

chrissy mackris
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:45 PM
there is a horse that i have been riding who is a GORGEOUS warmblood, sweet as can be, scopey, powerful jumper who is going for only 30k because he hasnt shown that much and is "hard" to ride. and i put that in quotes cause ive heard from otehr people that he was a tough ride, but he was amazing and fun to ride the 6 times that i rode/jumped him

*Tipperary*
anyone who says they made a small fortune in the horse business probably started with a large fortune.

Mosby
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:47 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Calvaro V:
I'm assuming that horses in Europe of such quality can be purchased for much less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'd be careful with that assumption - yeah, they might be cheaper, but sometimes you get what you pay for. It's not a bad idea - I bought mine there for pretty cheap - his price doubled the minute he landed on US soil, and I had offers for as much as four times what I paid for him within a few months.

My advice to you if you are thinking of going over there is to get a good trainer and/or agent to help you out. A rule of thumb to keep in mind is that if it was that good of a horse, they'd want to keep it over there.

nycjumper
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:50 PM
D Spinks - How do you know the course's aren't actually 4'6"? I'm not questioning your statement, just wondering if this was common knowledge (I'd never heard it but have a long way to go before I get to that level http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)

And if it is true - why are we dumbing down the AO courses? Aren't we setting people up to be hurt?

Mosby
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:54 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nycjumper:
D Spinks - How do you know the course's aren't actually 4'6"? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wonder the same thing. The shows I've been to, the courses are set at the max, especially if the division is split between highs and lows, the highs are typically set at the max.

Marcella
Apr. 28, 2004, 12:55 PM
I did the Ao's in the Midwest and those jumps were every inch of 4'6! There are a bunch of horses in those classes that have done Gp's and they need every amount of jump they can get.

"What are you liberals so afraid of?"--Anne Colter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mmreca

SquishTheBunny
Apr. 28, 2004, 01:27 PM
My friend bought an OTTB as a child/adult jumper prospect. Kept upping the fences and it kept clearing them. Sold as a section 5 (4'6) jumper 3 years after buying it from the track. She was selling in the range of $35,000 Canadian (TB's dont usually go as much as WBs), it took a while to sell him but he is now a happy 4'6 jumper winning most of his classes.

*Cody* Halfsteiner Jumper Extrordinaire!
*Bailey* The Ultimate Track Trash TB Hunter!

Sparky22
Apr. 28, 2004, 01:47 PM
D. Spink - I don't know what shows you are talking about! The vast majority of times I have walked into a high jr/ao class or a high prelim, the courses are set to specs. 1.3m for "amateur 4.6?" Gimme a break! Most shows have them built up to the same specs as the preliminaries.. "professional 4'6" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

And your little comment about amateurs falling off left and right at 4'6" is certainly ridiculous. Just in the northeast alone.. HITS, Lake Placid, Vermont.. solid A/O riders.

--------------------------
I would sooner fail than not be among the greatest
-- John Keats

Exitpoint
Apr. 28, 2004, 02:03 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nycjumper:
D Spinks - How do you know the course's aren't actually 4'6"? I'm not questioning your statement, just wondering if this was common knowledge (I'd never heard it but have a long way to go before I get to that level http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps things are very different back East; my firsthand experience comes from the West coast. I've ridden these classes in previous years (before slipping down the slippery slope into "pro land"), and I still walk most of the courses at shows just to keep a finger on the pulse.

Over the winter, I started carrying a tape measure with me when setting schooling fences. I marked all of our standards with 1.3, 1.4, 1.5, and 1.55 heights in permanent marker, and rarely a day goes by that I'm not measuring the width of an oxer we've set in training. I also carry a smaller tape measure at shows, just out of curiosity and in order to keep my "eye" accurate when gauging height and width.

Again, perhaps things are much different in the East (the last time I rode competitively back there was in the early '80s, in hunterland anyway), but here we have "Grand Prix" classes advertised as "4 foot 3" and only a few that are actually 1.45 meters (4 foot 9) outside of Spruce.

So, for the East Coasters, if you guys are seeing a different situation in the high amateurs I offer my apologies! I can't have a meanigful opinion on things I don't know, and I don't know the amateur classes back east (or in the midwest, for the most part, outside of Spruce which is sort of midwest).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And if it is true - why are we dumbing down the AO courses? Aren't we setting people up to be hurt?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good question, worthy of its own thread. Alas, I've got three stallions to collect and a Fedex deadline looming so it's off the computer for me.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

CBoylen
Apr. 28, 2004, 02:10 PM
Seriously, it depends on where you want to do the high Jr or A/O. If you want to do them at regular A shows, you're talking a not-quite-good-enough for the GP horse. That's anywhere from $50-200K, depending on your area, how lucky you get, and how many problems you want to put up with, including, age, soundness, or "quirks". For instance, many of the horses that won't jump the open water get sold down to the smaller A shows, where they never see a water jump (sometimes that's a big surprise when the buyer decides to move up to the bigger shows, and the ingate guy says "oh no, not that one again" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ).
However, if you want to do the A/O at WEF, or to a lesser extent Lake Placid (or Indio, I guess, never having been there), you need a legitimate GP horse (200K++), especially if your amateur or junior makes mistakes. The high A/O there is the equivalent of most GP's elsewhere in the country, and significantly higher and wider, as well as more technical than the jr or a/o division elsewhere. That's a call people have to make, whether they really want the horse that can do the highs in Fl, or if they're comfortable doing the mediums or lows in Fl, and moving up to the highs elsewhere. That's basically what I did when I had jumpers, showed in the lows and mediums all winter, and then did the highs at Culpeper or Catskills or VT in the summer. The downside of this strategy is that horses (and riders) that qualify for indoors or devon this way are usually at best unprepared and at worst completely overfaced when they get there.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Weatherford
Apr. 28, 2004, 02:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Calvaro V:
I'm assuming that horses in Europe of such quality can be purchased for much less.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

yes and no - depends on to whom you need to pay a commission... As well as the value of the dollar!

Check the classifieds in the Horse & Hound!!

Irish horses definitely range in $$ - my trainer just sold a WONDERFUL horse as an Eventer (he was winning at US Preliminary *) - but it also had good jumper mileage, and a number of SJ points - was competing at 1.2-1.3, and doing well, expecially in the speeds... He was expensive by Irish standards, but well under the six figures some people are talking here! (around Euro 35-40,000) I have no clue how much the final purchaser paid for him...

Again, it depends on your "agent", "broker", "trainer" and your trainer's friends.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Calvaro V
Apr. 28, 2004, 02:53 PM
Seems that most in Horse and Hound have only competed up to around 1m 30 though. A few that have done more, but usually 14 or 15.

A couple of dealers I spoke to there were quoting at least 60 - 70k US for a 4'6 horse and that was before the shipping, etc.

I know that at the end of the day, you do get what you pay for. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

PonyJumperGRL
Apr. 28, 2004, 03:08 PM
I've seen Junior Jumpers out West and at Indio that look like small Grand Prixs..They are DEFINITELY 4'6!

Amanda
"Freedom is nothing but a chance to be better." - Albert Camus

rottenrobbie
Apr. 28, 2004, 04:09 PM
Yep..the High JR/AO's at Indio are definately 4'6" with a few 4'9" fences thrown in. My guess, you better have a GP horse (if not for ribboning at least for SURVIVAL)! $$$$$$

Pony Fan
Apr. 28, 2004, 04:18 PM
I can give you an idea using our two Junior Jumpers as examples. Both are neither too old or too young at 10 and 7 years old. Both are 100% sound and will vet clean. Both have no vices and load, clip, tie etc. Both have shown 1.40 metres and one has shown 1.45. One has shown and placed well at $30,000 and under Grand Prixs and the younger will be making his Grand Prix debut this summer. Both do all natural obstacles and open water. Both have solid extensive records on the "A" circuit and in Eurpoe.

Now one is a saint. Does Grand Prixs in a plain snaffle like he was doing the 4' hunters. Can usually be counted on for double clears. Has NO issues. He's kind, willing absolutely honest and will give every ounce to his job every time he's in the ring. He can literally take a junior or ammy rider from Child/Adults to Grand Prix...he's that uncomplicated. He's a good sized Hannoverian who is broke to death on the flat and even did the Eq at Devon. In other words, a true "gentleman" and the kind of horse every junior/ammy would love to have.

The second one is gifted but "quirky". He has an unusual jumping style and requires an accurate ride. He is VERY opinionated and needs a rider who will compromise - and who has a great sense of humor! He does not suffer mistakes (unlike horse #1 who will try his hardest even if his rider makes a mistake). This guy is a cocky little ISH, just 15.2" (but with a HUGE stride) who KNOWS he could jump the moon. He is brave but independent. He hates repitition, gymnastics or low warm-up fences but he is FAST and can really turn and jump.

So, how are they priced? Horse #2 can jump everything Horse #1 can but it is their rideability that dictates their prices. Horse #2 is priced at $45,000 with room for negotiation; Horse #1 is priced in the low 3 figures. But I will probably sell horse #1 long before I find a buyer for horse #2. The reason is that most Juniors/Ammie NEED a horse like horse #1. He's a safe, sane packer with enough scope/jump to get him and his rider out of any situation. That is a hard horse to find and so, he's priced accordingly.

However, when the right rider comes along for horse #2, boy, will they be getting a great deal. As my trainer says, he's for a talented rider with big ambitions but a small pocketbook! :-)

www.perfectponies.com (http://www.perfectponies.com)

Calvaro V
Apr. 28, 2004, 05:01 PM
Pony Fan

Your horses are priced very reasonably! They look very nice. Can I ask why they are so reasonable? With such show records, you could command much higher prices.

Pony Fan
Apr. 28, 2004, 07:39 PM
I believe they are both fairly and realisticly priced based on the current market. As my daughter will be heading off for college in September, I want to have the horses sold before she leaves for school.

www.perfectponies.com (http://www.perfectponies.com)

ProzacPuppy
Apr. 29, 2004, 05:57 AM
Can someone give me an idea of prices for Jr/AO horses overseas? What ranges are you finding?

Most of the horses we've seen in the US that are under $100,000 are either older (15+) or have either health issues or rideability issues.

It has gotten to the point that I 'm also looking at the possibility of getting a nice 2 or 3 year old with great bloodlines and terrific form freejumping to bring along and hope for the best, but I'm also seeing some outrageously high prices for practically unbacked, unbroken youngsters (45,000 or more for some).

Anyone have recommendations on breeders with youngstock, either North America or Overseas that I could look into?

PONYFAN- check your PTs.

Elementgrl2
Apr. 29, 2004, 07:25 AM
Atleast 150,000

Calvaro V
Apr. 29, 2004, 08:03 AM
yes Prozac. Basically you do get what you pay for. A good 4 '6 - 4'9 horse that is rideable and sound is going to be pricey wherever you go. The best thing is to try to get something around 5 or 6 I would say. It has its basics down and is probably jumping arond 3'6 comfortably. It knows how to lengthen and shorten and help itself out if necessary. However, it will not have the show record, etc and therefore will not be as pricey. of course you are risking the fact that the horse may not jump much higher or want to jump higher (very important factor the want!!)

Anything in the 2 or 3 year bracket, you are talking years to see results and it requires a lot of patience and training. In the long run you will have spent as much as you would on a made or nearly made jumper. Of course it can be rewarding, but unless you are a pro with multiple rides and the time to bring it on properly, I would probably try to go for something more made.

if you PT me with your price range, I know of a couple of horses available that are very nice. Also, I think you can ride smaller horses right (?) so you may be in luck. PT if you'd like to know more. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Silk
Apr. 29, 2004, 08:11 AM
Ponyfan: I like your advise on choosing the "right" pony

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

Weatherford
Apr. 29, 2004, 10:46 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ProzacPuppy:
Can someone give me an idea of prices for Jr/AO horses overseas? What ranges are you finding?

Most of the horses we've seen in the US that are under $100,000 are either older (15+) or have either health issues or rideability issues.

It has gotten to the point that I 'm also looking at the possibility of getting a nice 2 or 3 year old with great bloodlines and terrific form freejumping to bring along and hope for the best, but I'm also seeing some outrageously high prices for practically unbacked, unbroken youngsters (45,000 or more for some).

Anyone have recommendations on breeders with youngstock, either North America or Overseas that I could look into?

PONYFAN- check your PTs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

My cousin has been picking up VERY good qualtiy young horses and taking them back to the US - and paying under $10,000 for them... One was supposed to become a field hunter, but fluncked out http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif, so went to be an eventer, but was found to have an exorbinant (sp?) amount of ability, and will wind up in the Jr/AO, if not higher... (He is a VERY cool ISH!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif )

Essentially, you get young horses here (and you van get them at auction) for anywhere from E.3,000 - E.10,000... Mostly, if only just broke, or unbroke, in the lower range. If started, can still be in that range... If it has points, the price goes up - but how much it goes up depends on your accent... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

That being said, someone I know sold a WONDERFUL jumper (had I known I would have bought him!) for E. 5,000 - to a good home to be a field hunter! This was a TRUE amateur horse, and belonged in the jumper ring... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif (This same owner has another one that I am SURE could be a BIG TIME jumper - is currently doing the 1.2's - but tends to jump his rider out of the tack!)

Hope that helps - really, E.15,000 is considered a LOT of money for a horse here...

It's OUT! Linda Allen's 101 Exercises for Jumping co-authored by MOI!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Pony Fan
Apr. 29, 2004, 11:01 AM
Silk - Thanks for the compliment! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I work a great deal with parents looking for a pony for their child and have seen waaaaay too many mistakes made when folks are not well informed. The perfect first pony will instill a lifelong love of riding. The wrong one....well those are the kids who end up playing soccer!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

www.perfectponies.com (http://www.perfectponies.com)

Exitpoint
Apr. 29, 2004, 12:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ProzacPuppy:
It has gotten to the point that I 'm also looking at the possibility of getting a nice 2 or 3 year old with great bloodlines and terrific form freejumping to bring along and hope for the best, but I'm also seeing some outrageously high prices for practically unbacked, unbroken youngsters (45,000 or more for some).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Congrats to you for stepping off the North American habit of shopping in Europe only for "made" horses. We need more people here who learn how to MAKE the horses, starting with good raw materials. If you do go this route, you'll find it incredibly rewarding and you'll be so far along versus buying an already-finished horse either here or in Europe.

I could point you at super Holsteiner breeders in Germany with dozens of prospects in the 2-4 age range with super jumping talent for less than 20k EUR. Prices go up from there for the "freaks of nature" that are destined for the 1.60 meter classes, but for a horse "only" looking like a 1.45 prospect the prices are not high.

If you bring one like that over, start him, and get him going well then in a year or two he'll be worth 10x what you paid for him in Europe. Why don't more people do this? I don't know! I guess it is the "fear of green horses" and the American fascination with "breaking" horses. Well-bred horses aren't "broken," not by good trainers anyway! We train them, we educate them, and we bring them along. . . but we NEVER break them! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

In the last seven years, I've brought over six or seven young horses, either just started under saddle or still only freejumping. Not one has failed to excel, and it's certainly not my brilliant training that gets the credit. Rather, when starting with good raw materials it is hard to really mess it up. That's my thinking, anyway.

In contrast, the two I've bought in America both had tons of problems that took years to fix, cost more than they should have, and required far more work than simply starting them correctly. Yes, I've learned my lesson.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

seal
Apr. 29, 2004, 01:24 PM
Well, ProzacPony that's exactly what I ended up doing. I bought a 2 1/2 year old halter broke Dutch gelding from a local breeder. He comes from excellent jumping bloodlines and has a fantastic disposition with an unbelievable mind.

I was unable to find a young jumper prospect here in the US and for various reasons I didn't want to go back to Europe. It was suggested that I contact a highly regarded breeder, which I did, and I have been more than pleased with both my decision and purchase.

If you want a quality horse and care enough to make sure he/she receives the correct training, etc, then I actually think buying young and unproven is the way to go. If you have more money than you know what to do with and have no patience and a huge desire to jump the big fences NOW, then whip out that checkbook and spend away for a made horse.

Otherwise do it yourself. I was pretty much forced to do just that considering the fact the inventory almost doesn't exist here in the US unless you can afford the time and money to travel all over the country as well as Canada, and what I could find was either very expensive or had major training issues (read bad/incorrect) or already had questionable soundness issues at 3!

I even received a lovely, well made video of a nice, 5 year old, who was so obviously off that even my husband could tell! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

flshgordon
Apr. 29, 2004, 01:49 PM
I won't get into the issue of the way horses are started in the US because I agree that there is so much left to be desired in that area vs. Europe. However....I kind of take offense to the fact that if you're going to buy young you have to go to Europe---WHY!!! If the horse isn't started or is barely started but has the pedigree and obvious athleticism and will for jumping, why not buy it here?? In this case, the age old argument that everything started in the US is started wrong just doesn't apply here. The quality of US bred horses is only going up and up and up and we need to jump off the Europe only bandwagon.

P.Puppy---there are even some outstanding breeders of young horses here in the houston area that I am sure you could talk to about what you're looking for. My dressage instructor (Sonesta) comes to mind and I believe she is a friend of your trainer's. I don't think she has what you are looking for, but I would be surprised if she couldn't point you in the correct direction and I'm sure there are others.

Personally I took a different road than all the suggestions and bred my own and hope that she will be my upper level jumper someday. I don't have $100K to plop down on a horse, but I can spend the money to raise and start her correctly in a couple years.

"Now it's time to focus in on where I go from here--Lord have mercy on my next 30 years" :-) Tim McGraw

ProzacPuppy
Apr. 29, 2004, 02:12 PM
I know I don't want to start from scratch (ie breeding my own) as I would be an absolute mess throughout the entire pregnancy and probably have a coronary during the delivery (that said of course, our trainer is going to breed one of his GP horses to a AO mare that we really like....hmmmm). No, don't get me started with foals.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have no problem with a US or Canadian youngster, tho I wouldn't mind a visit to Europe for the shopping trip either http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

The problem I'm finding so far is that alot of the breeders tend to sell their youngstock long before they get to be 2 or 3 years old and I get the feeling that alot of the 3 year olds that I'm seeing are "left overs" (tho I can see absolutely nothing wrong with them, but of course I immediately assume that I am not educated enough to see the flaws that others obviously have etc etc). Is it necessary to purchase in utero or a weanling to get "the good ones"?

seal
Apr. 29, 2004, 02:38 PM
Nope, I bought a 2 year old and the breeder had lots of weanlings, a few yearlings and only a couple of 2 year old horses. When I said start from scratch, I didn't mean that far back!

I wouldn't worry about buying the "leftovers". The market for babies is quite small--there's more product than their are buyers--from what I understand.

You can do it! When I was horse shopping last year, I can't tell you how many times I came across a teenager selling her 5 year old that she bought as a 2-3 year old. I figured if they could do it, so could I.

flshgordon
Apr. 29, 2004, 02:40 PM
I definitely wouldn't advocate breeding one on your own if you don't have experience in that. I am lucky to have that in my backround. But, I would think *and just thinking here* that you would have plenty of help where you are if you decided to buy a very young prospect.

I don't honestly know the answer to your last question....maybe that is correct? maybe not? But if you could find someone familiar with evaluating young horses to help, that would probably make it easier.

"Now it's time to focus in on where I go from here--Lord have mercy on my next 30 years" :-) Tim McGraw

ProzacPuppy
Apr. 29, 2004, 07:53 PM
I'm sure our trainer would think I was insane if I purchased a very young horse but I'm confident that we are in a facility that could handle the upbringing of a youngster.

And I am really hoping that Seal is correct and there isn't quite the market for youngsters (that they are not being snapped up within days of getting on the market etc).

I don't think I would consider breeding but I have seriously considered purchasing one of the Zangersheide foals at auction over in Europe. What bloodlines!!

Exitpoint
Apr. 29, 2004, 10:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ProzacPuppy:
I'm sure our trainer would think I was insane if I purchased a very young horse but I'm confident that we are in a facility that could handle the upbringing of a youngster. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Funny story, this actually happened today.

A friend of mine has a daughter who is an aggressive, talented little rider and she has outgrown her old pony. He mentions this to me, and I mention that I know of this exceptional pony jumper in Germany. Three years old, just started under saddle, but exceptional pedigree, exceptional freejumping talent, and a pricetag that is quite reasonable as the breeder is a friend of a friend.

He's all excited about getting such a great horse for his daughter. His daughter's trainer, however, completely cold-hoses the whole idea. Green horses are DANGEROUS. Will take YEARS to get the horse ready for the kid to ride, by then she'll be all grown up. MUCH safer and smarter to buy an "already-made" pony which, surprise of surprises, this trainer happens to have in "back pocket."

Price for said pony is many times more than the German pony (shipping from Europe included). Commission to trainer is, well who knows since the client paid the "purchase price" to the trainer and the trainer paid a mystery price to the actual pony owner. Pony was found at Indio.

Again, I am not making this up.

Magical "trained" pony arrives from California. Bad attitude, exceptionally un-inspiring character. Bucks off the daughter in her second ride. She breaks her collarbone, refuses to ever ride the pony again. Everyone agrees the pony is absolutely a piece of work, nasty and bitter and all-around just mean.

Trainer, again I am not making this up, offers to find ANOTHER pony. No refund, no apology.

I mention that the pony I had my eye on is still for sale in Germany, still at a super price, only now he's going under saddle pretty well over there. Upon being informed of this, trainer flips her lid (again) and insists this is not an option. End of story. Discussion over.

Only, if the client does buy the German pony, she wants a commission. . .

Why is our system of developing riders and horses so "hooped" (to use a Canadian-ism)? I think the answer is embedded right here, in this shameless, sorrowful mess of a system for buying and selling and training horses and young riders.

Happy ending from my end. I bought the German pony myself, working on shipping arrangements now. I could not be happier to have him coming here, he'll be a great addition to our barn.

The client, however, is frustrated and angry and bitter. The daughter is broken and sad. The pony is headed for the dogfood can. And the trainer is several tens of thousands of dollars the richer for all this "hard work."

The system, as they say, is broke.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

seal
Apr. 29, 2004, 10:51 PM
No kidding Exitpoint. And I am almost certain that the market hasn't changed for young prospects since I bought mine a mere 6 months ago. Someone needs to inform ProzacPony that there ARE breeders here in the US with young stock from great bloodlines. It can be done.

It wouldn't be a big surprise if her trainer cold hoses the idea of a young horse either. Mine did the same thing. I got a ton of lip service about how a young horse was fine, but then when I found one who would vet, there was a million reasons why I deserved to have a horse that was going! Yeah right. I also deserve to live in McMansion with tons of servants, etc but that isn't going to happen either. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

ProzacPuppy
Apr. 30, 2004, 06:20 AM
Our trainer is actually very openminded and has shown us a rising 5 yr old that is very nice but, as most trainers would, keeps reminding me and daughter that it will be awhile before most of these youngsters are ready for AO and GP. And there is still all the board, training etc for the youngster.

But I'm beginning to feel that, with fairly limited budget, I can (possibly) get a higher quality AO horse by waiting out the growth process than buying an already made horse.

I am aware that the US has alot of breeders, as does Canada. I've even contacted a South American breeder. Still the same problem- not alot of youngsters available in the 3 yr old range. Then I became intruiged by the Irish Sport Horse and started looking to the UK.

I've gotten a couple leads already, but if you've got any suggestions on breeders I might talk to, please let me know.

It is a sad fact tho that almost all trainers here in the US immediately want to go to Europe and purchase a made horse. Some of them are German and possibly feel more comfortable with breeders they have known for years but I've known some trainers who had no more Euro connections or leads than the average person surfing the internet but still lead clients overseas to horse hunt.

I haven't figured out why trainers are so against young prospects except for the smaller commission . A youngster is still going to need board plus monthly training- for years- which at some barns can add up to quite a bit of money. And then the showing starts- which for the trainer is the same fees whether you are doing the low hunters/jumpers or the AOs.

Again, I have nothing against importing a gorgeous made GP horse from Europe (except the cost). I also enjoy the feeling of accomplishment that comes with bringing along a horse.

seal
Apr. 30, 2004, 06:58 AM
Yes, ProzacPony is you are looking for that nice young jumper prospect in the 3-4 year old range, they are very few and far between. Mainly, because of the market for horses isn't that big in that age range anyway, and also because someone who is seriously shopping for a youngster already has made their purchase.

Which is why I ended up with a 2 1/2 year old for the very same reasons you are looking for a young one. More bang for your buck, plus you are assured that any of the mistakes taken with your horse were yours. Therefore, you know exactly why your horse may have certain quirks or eccentricities. It's not a big training mystery that might takes weeks, months or years to figure out or correct.

In that way, it is a big time and money saver. you also know for sure if any short cuts were taken. Everyone talks about the risk involved with any horse purchase, and frankly I have seen many made horses that were ticking time bombs. How much was the poor beast campaigned and trained? Maybe the horse has stayed sound and can do it's job, but for how long?

If you take a young one and bring it along slowly and carefully, a lot of those concerns would be non issues. Of course, tragedy can strike anyone and anytime, but a young horse to me is like a house under construction that you built. You know exactly what went into its construction. However, a made show horse is a lot like a rental care or an older home. How has it been maintained over the years? Was it done correctly?

If you are seriously interested I know of several breeders. Send me a PT if you would like names and numbers. I know breeders in Florida, Oregon and California.

It's not too far off in the future to buy and find a 2 1/2 year old like I did. You can do it. The reason why trainers aren not so fond of young green horses is the fact that they are a lot more work and for the trainer at least, the payoff is much less. A made horse can go out and show immediatately and best of all the trainer has to put in much less effort to achieve the same results.

Basically time is money and the trainers want to extract the most money out of you with the least amount of effort. Sad but true.

ProzacPuppy
Apr. 30, 2004, 07:29 AM
Seal- I PT'ed you.

So far, one of the biggest problems in youngster shopping is that they are all so cute that I am perfectly happy with just about all of them. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Silk
Apr. 30, 2004, 09:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pony Fan:
Silk - Thanks for the compliment! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I work a great deal with parents looking for a pony for their child and have seen waaaaay too many mistakes made when folks are not well informed. The perfect first pony will instill a lifelong love of riding. The wrong one....well those are the kids who end up playing soccer!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.perfectponies.com<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

So true! But the saints are hard to find, unless you can spend 200,000. The "normal" saintly pony is often not the fanciest in the bunch. I have two: one is adorable, but a real dick http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif The other is not-quiate-as-cute, but jumps anything from anywhere with anypone! And...has a great natural eye of his own.

Of course, the beastly one is a stopper, but wins the model (sheesh!)

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

nycjumper
Apr. 30, 2004, 12:05 PM
If you're working with a good trainer - is it feasible for someone with limited experience to bring on a youn'in?? I'm an AA but have aspirations to make it to the AOs. However, I'm not there yet & sure as heck can't afford a true AO horse to pack me around the course.

Would I ruin a young'in if we learned together? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

ProzacPuppy
Apr. 30, 2004, 12:41 PM
Our trainer seems to feel that after the initial groundwork has been laid (getting the horse under saddle etc) that my 18 yr old daughter is perfectly capable of working with him to train the horse. Of course, she will be under his supervision and direction.

I personally would not attempt to deal with a youngster without having the horse under the full supervision of a professional. I've known a couple older teens who purchased youngsters with the intention of "training it themself" and the horses are nearing 5 now and still not really trained or rideable.

Smiles
Apr. 30, 2004, 02:00 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by nycjumper:
If you're working with a good trainer - is it feasible for someone with limited experience to bring on a youn'in?? I'm an AA but have aspirations to make it to the AOs. However, I'm not there yet & sure as heck can't afford a true AO horse to pack me around the course.QUOTE]

Just using you as an example Nyjumper, but I think trainers drill into clients minds that you need a made horse to win or take care of you at that level. My honest opinion is if you can jump 4.6ft you should have the ability to take care of yourself and horse. This is part of the reason why so many want or are told that the import is the way to go. If we spent more time developing young horses here in the states there would be a nice supply of horses to choice from, but we don't and hence the reason people look to Europe for horses because they have so many to choice from. Sure your not going to get their creme of the crop, but chances are your going to get a horse that is competive. I have a friend who breeds w.b sport horses and she still goes over to europe to buy because she says that people will buy her import way before they buy her home breed. She gets fruastrated with that because her offspring have nice bloodlines and are put together well, However once someone hears the word import they would rather look at those young horses. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Just another day!!!

nycjumper
Apr. 30, 2004, 02:20 PM
Smiles:
I'm not disagreeing with you at all. I think if you're jumping 4'6 you SHOULD be a good enough rider not to need a packer. In my case, I can't jump 4'6" now & I've got some solid years of schooling ahead of me before I get to that point.

I guess my ? is it crazy to buy a horse & train him along with yourself? That way we both peak at the same time? Just wondering if that is a conceivable goal....

findeight
Apr. 30, 2004, 02:20 PM
If you go back to what Calvaro v originally asked...High Jr A/O horses are quite pricey.

Many here have responded with all kinds of ideas for lesser prices BUT they are talking horses that MIGHT make a High Jr. A/O after more work and NOT a High Jr/AO competitor.

That's what makes the price, proven ability.

Now, she may have meant how can I find one that may make it later with time and training but she posted how much for one going now.

Not everybody has the time, talent and $$$$ to try to develop a youngster with free jumping experience only into a virtual GP level jumper-as the Highs are at rated levels. Many more don't want to, they want a made one.
No harm nor shame in that and no blame to either client or trainer who is looking for that made 4'9"+ they can show next week.

Then there are the Juniors who will age out long before any prospect is ever out of the Pre Greens/ Low Schooling..and that's IF it even turns out to be suitable. Something you never really can know for sure until it does it.

I see no problem with those who prefer to not gamble time and money on something that may or may not work out, particularly at these levels.

The Horse World. 2 people, 3 opinions. That's the way it is.

ProzacPuppy
Apr. 30, 2004, 02:32 PM
nycjumper- My daughter had never jumped over 3' when we bought her current horse, an OTTB, who had never been ridden except on the racetrack. And they both learned to jump big fences together.

Looking back, it would have been easier for her to learn on a schoolmaster who had "been there, done that" rather than the two of them trying to figure it out as they went. The biggest negative was that it takes alot of practice to get comfortable doing 4'6" fences and learn to see your distances etc. I think by the time my daughter became competent and confident at the Junior/AO heights the horse's hocks were starting to show the wear and tear. I think learning on a horse that knows his job would require alot less practice over big fences for the horse.

Findeight- I think I hi-jacked the thread. Calvaro wants an AO horse. I do too, but I can't afford six figures so I'm willing to take a chance on creating my AO/GP horse. Apologies to Calvaro for the hi-jacking. BUT- I just want a horse that can do 5' for under $60,000. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

CBoylen
Apr. 30, 2004, 02:44 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ProzacPuppy:
I haven't figured out why trainers are so against young prospects except for the smaller commission . A youngster is still going to need board plus monthly training- for years- which at some barns can add up to quite a bit of money. And then the showing starts- which for the trainer is the same fees whether you are doing the low hunters/jumpers or the AOs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's because buying a young horse is a big risk, and sometimes clients think they understand, only to prove later on that they didn't really get the amount of time or the work that goes into making up a horse, particularly a young jumper.
It's very hard to determine the amount of talent in a young horse, and even harder to determine in what situation that young horse is going to perform to the best of his talent.
Your 2 year old potential GP horse just might want to be a junior hunter when he grows up, and you really aren't going to be able determine that until he's at least 4 or 5 years old. That's 3 years of work and money into a horse that doesn't do the job you want it to do. Even if said horse wants to be a jumper, it's not going to be any kind of a high A/O horse until it's at the very least 7 years old, preferably 8 or 9. That's a lot of time and money, and there are so many things that can go wrong between now and then.
In the middle of all this, your client gets tired of jumping speed bumps, frustrated by introducing new jumps, and wants to blame everyone involved when Gem Twist II scopes out at 3'9, has a meltdown at the mere suggestion of water, or is far too careful for an amateur ride.
As far as amateur riders on green horses, it's one thing to be able to ride around a 4'6 course on a made horse. It's quite another to do it on a green one. A rider needs to spend a lot of time in the highs on a horse that knows its job before they think about trying it on one that hasn't been there yet.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Smiles
Apr. 30, 2004, 02:44 PM
Nyjumper When you say "limit experience" are we talking someone who has just bought their first horse and jumps X's or are we talking about someone that has experience in the lower levels up to 3.6ft, but hasn't had the horse flesh to take them beyond 3.6ft?

Senor 1 I don't think can be done, however Senor 2 I think it can be done with the right horse and the riders ability to train. I don't think it should be done totally alone. Say you bought a young horse and through lessons and training got it to a higher competive level than yes I think it could be done. I've done that with my horses. Bought young stock 2 or 3 years of age and trained them. My current show horse we bought when she was 2 1/2 and we do the a/o hunter and place in good company. BUT it took several years to get there. We first started out in the jumpers because the horse won't do her lead changes, but with the proper training, showing, and time management you can make your own. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Just another day!!!

Pony Fan
Apr. 30, 2004, 03:04 PM
You can get a lot more horse for your money if you are prepared to take the time to bring it along....but A LOT can go wrong between "potential" and "proven'.

We took this route with our Horse # 1. Bought him as a talented 4 year old in Denmark, schooling 3'9". Brought him home and my trainer completely restarted him because the horse was so worried about making a mistake he would panic when he did. Trainer and horse spent a year in the baby hunters. The next year they moved in to the schooling jumpers moving during the season from the schoolings to the low prelims. The following year it was the Prelims, natural obstacles and low Grand Prixs.

And only then, did my daughter get to ride him!

During the time my pro was training the horse, my daughter was coming up the ranks in the jumpers from Pony Jumpers, to Childrens and then the Modified Childrens. During the 3 1/2 years, she would occassionally get to hack him and got to jump him once on her birthday http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif but basically I allowed my trainer to slowly create an animal who was NEVER put into a situation he couldn't get out of. As a result, we have a horse who has a huge 'heart" and will try ANYTHING he is asked to do because he has NEVER been asked to do anything he couldn't do.

We have the "big ticket" jumper but we put a huge amount of time and thought into his program. My concern with trying to create this type of horse with a non-pro rider...no matter how talented the jr or ammy might be...is that through their own inexperience, they are going to put the horse occassionally into bad situations. By the time my daughter got her horse, he had the confidence he needed so that when she made a "learning" mistake, he was secure enough to take over and "fix" it for her.

By learning on a horse like this, my daughter was able to take on a more difficult ride in Horse #2.

But when the fences get 4'9", it's a bad place to be if at least one part of the horse/rider team isn't experienced!

By the way, with our long-term project we lucked out with a horse never developed any soundness issues, attitude issues or training issues to get in the way of his natural jumping ability. But I have seen hundreds of jumpers who may have the talent to go to the top but get "stalled" along the way by outside issues. Developing a jumper is a gamble plain and simple! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

www.perfectponies.com (http://www.perfectponies.com)

Marcella
Apr. 30, 2004, 03:32 PM
As far as I am concerned, when you start going over the big jumps (4'6+) and you never have before, doing so on a green horse at that level is not the time to start learning. I feel a huge difference between even 4'3 and 4'6, where my horse actually decides he is going to start using himself and to feel that difference in his jump is quite frightening.

I would be willing to pay for a horse with some manageable soundness issues in order to get me around the high a/o course and learn on him for the time being so then I can purchase a new one (maybe less experienced, but I would have to experience to get back at the upper level). The extra $$ means less hospital bills in the future (for the rider).

"What are you liberals so afraid of?"--Anne Colter
http://community.webshots.com/user/mmreca

ProzacPuppy
Apr. 30, 2004, 08:18 PM
As I said, I think we did it wrong the first time round. The first time the horse ever did 4'6" was the first time his rider had ever done 4'6". His first Grand Prix was also hers. One problem was that when they got into trouble, they GOT INTO TROUBLE TOGETHER.

But all this brings us back to the issue of- what does an already made hi AO jumper capable of small GP going to cost me? Probably six figures at minimum. A horse that can jump around a 4'9"-5' course, even with a couple rails, is beyond alot of our pocketbooks unless we find that diamond in the rough whose true value no one has seen yet or bring along a prospect that makes it.

Pony Fan
May. 1, 2004, 12:35 PM
Prozac Pup -

The problem is that horses who can do the High Junior/Ammys and Low Grand Prix are few and far between. We are talking about equine athletes who are near the top of the competition pyramid in ability.

Let's use your "diamond in the rough" analogy. Suppose you were vacationing in South Africa (or some other place that happens to "grow" diamonds http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) and you set out to find your own diamond. First you'd have to pick and sort through and discard hundreds, perhaps thousands of ordinary rocks. Eventually though, let's say you luck upon an uncut rough diamond. The uncut stone has the "potential" to be a gem. But first you have to cut it and polish it. Unless you are an expert though, you may end up destroying the diamond by making mistakes in this process.

So, let's say you give the stone to a professional with years of experience and, over time, finally he is able to cut and polish the stone and give you a true diamond.

Great! ....except that even then all diamonds are evaluated by the "4Cs" - cut, clarity, color and carat. Your stone may be huge in weight (carat) but lacking in clarity. Or it may have required a cut which fails to display it's brilliance. Or the color may be off...you get the idea. A stone that excells in all categories is rare. That's why the big, perfect diamonds end up in the hands of millionaires and celebrities while the smaller, flawed diamonds end up in engagement rings at Walmart!

Jumpers are the same way. The number who have the athletic ability to jump 4'9" + are rare. These are exceptional animals. But like diamonds, even among these, there are flaws which limit their value. Manageable soundness issues, attitude issues or quirks, horses who have the jump but are not careful. Horses who have the ability but not the desire. Like a diamond shopper, if you are willing to live with one of these "flaws", you too can have a diamond. But the horse, like a diamond, which excells in all categories, by its rarity and uniqueness, is worth whatever the market will bear.

This is what makes riding a frustrating sport - no matter how talented the rider may be, they require a horse with equal ability to succeed. A tennis player can be a superstar even with an ordinary racket. And one racket is more or less like any other. But without a top horse, a rider can not compete at the elite level. I am friendly with a former Olympic rider. Even he is constantly looking for the next "Great One". He's had several promising ones over the past few years...one suffered injuries; one never reached it's early promise; one developed rideability issues. So, this remarkable human athlete has been sidelined while he continues to look for/develop his next mount. And, by the way, he complains that you can't even find these horses - and when you do they are priced in the millions of dollars!

www.perfectponies.com (http://www.perfectponies.com)

Exitpoint
May. 1, 2004, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
It's very hard to determine the amount of talent in a young horse, and even harder to determine in what situation that young horse is going to perform to the best of his talent.
Your 2 year old potential GP horse just might want to be a junior hunter when he grows up, and you really aren't going to be able determine that until he's at least 4 or 5 years old. That's 3 years of work and money into a horse that doesn't do the job you want it to do. Even if said horse wants to be a jumper, it's not going to be any kind of a high A/O horse until it's at the very least 7 years old, preferably 8 or 9. That's a lot of time and money, and there are so many things that can go wrong between now and then. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A few "devil's advocate" items to consider:

1. It's not that hard to see, even in a horse 2.5 years old, whether he really wants to be a hunter or a jumper. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying here, but even in Germany nowadays, the youngsters are getting segregated into "hunter type" and "jumper type" (along with "dressage type" of course). Sure, there's a horse now and again that suddenly "switches teams" later in life, but these are few and far between.

2. While I'm in general agreement with Pony Fan's statements, I do have to point out that 4 foot 6 (1.40 meters) really isn't that big for today's modern sporthorses. The young stallions being presented by all the major registries at 2.5 years old are asked to freejump oxers that are this tall routinely, and the mare performance tests (at least for the Holsteiners) are also in this range for the good jumpers.

While freejumping isn't jumping under saddle, it is equally true that a horse who can comfortably and efficiently hop over a 1.4 meter oxer in the jump chute at age 30 months is very unlikely to have physical problems jumping 1.4 meters under saddle as an adult.

This summer at the Spruce circuit, there is an entire division at 1.60 meters. That's translated as 5 foot 3 (my metric conversion shows it to be exactly 62.99 inches). These include not only verticals at this height, but also oxers. These are big fences, this is the top of the sport. Only truly gifted horses can, physically, jump around at this level consistently and effectively.

1.40 meters is a full nine inches lower than this standard. That's a big difference! So, while we as riders might think of 1.4 as "big," modern-bred sport horses are often not anywhere near their limits at this height. This is why it's so easy to find youngsters (in Europe, anyway) who can jump this level effectively when trained and grown. Even the "failures" of modern Holsteiner jumping breeding, to use my own breed, should be able to do this quite well.

Finally, the pony jumper finals in Europe last year were set at 1.4 meters. Ponies. Food for thought to those of us who ride horses.

3. I shudder at the logic behind the "people learn to jump big fences by sitting on a schooled horse" arguments. Not because it's entirely wrong, but rather because a false sense of capability often arises from this in the amateur.

From my personal experience, there's a massive gap between sitting on a schooled horse and being packed around 1.4 (or 1.5, or 1.3 even), and actually riding these fences on a horse. Green and young horses need to be ridden, true, but also horses who are getting near their mental or physical limits in terms of height (regardless of schooling experience) also need a real ride. Somebody who takes a proven, solid 1.5 meter horse and chases him around a 1.4 meter course, whether they "win" the class or not, is developing few useful riding skills.

More often, they are developing a big ego about "winning" at a given fence height, and they are also developing a false sense of capability in terms of their riding level. Without naming names, I'll use as an example an American rider who bought an experienced World Cup jumper from Europe a few years back for seven figures (Euros).

The horse comes here, drops down 0.2 meters in competition, and wins a few classes. The rider is a HERO! Pictures in magazines, adoring interviews, the works. Horse, within 12 months, has "lost his confidence" (words of the rider) and now stands in a barn and eats hay.

Same rider, earlier in career, brought over a mare from Europe that was proven World Cup. "Never clicked" with the mare (rider's words), sold the mare within 9 months, a new rider (North American rider, even!) soon had her back at World Cup where she stayed for many years.

Moral of the story? Money can buy talented horses, but money can't buy riding skills and all the money in the world can't prevent a talented horse from being ruined by a rider who is able to hang on at a given level, but who is unable to actually ride in a way that actually helps the horse to jump better.


Anyway, a few pet peeves. I think many, many young riders would be far better off getting on a "green" (such a North American word!) horse and learning the ropes, rather than spending daddy's money to buy a horse with more skills than the rider. True, the rider's skills will inch up in the process, but at the cost of dragging the horse's skills far down. To me, that's just not a fair trade, and it is not even good for the rider.

Full disclosure. I learned to ride the 1.4 meter classes primarily on "green" horses. Took longer than getting on a seven-figure wonder trained by someone else, but (hopefully) it also means I learned more about the actual nuts and bolts of riding at these levels.

As to the old canard that the young horse is "ruined" because he is schooled by a relatively green rider, I think it's absolute hogwash for the most part. What a green rider lacks in skills and experience, they almost always make up for in heart, soul, committment, caring, and respect for the horse. Show me a horse that was truly "ruined" by a hard-working green rider, and I'll show you 20 that were wiped out by "professionals" who tried to cut corners, skip steps, and force horses rather than working with them to achieve results.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

Medievalist
May. 1, 2004, 03:37 PM
Awesome answer D. Spink. I think that you are right on.

Centre Equestre de la Houssaye (http://www.eii.fr/club/houssaye)

Pony Fan
May. 1, 2004, 03:48 PM
Exitpoint

The High Junior Jumpers at the "A" shows we attend run at 1.45 metres and most of the smaller Grand Prixs are 1.50.

I do have to disagree with you though about "Green" riders making up Green upper level horses. If ANYONE is "lacking" in skills and experience, I sincerely doubt they can "always make up for in heart, soul, committment, caring, and respect for the horse". Good intentions don't make good jumpers! Ability, skill, technical knowledge, a solid background in confidence building situations - IMO, THAT's how a rider, any rider, makes a jumper. I've seen A LOT of talented, capable horses "broken" by well-meaning, even loving owners who did not have the knowledge and skills to ride today's technically demanding courses.

My daughter has been fortunate to work with professionals who ensured that she and her horses were equal to every challenge asked of them and able to safely and competitively tackle courses at the highest levels. That's what REAL professionals do. And as a mother and owner, I am very grateful they do!

www.perfectponies.com (http://www.perfectponies.com)

CBoylen
May. 1, 2004, 05:42 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Exitpoint:
1. It's not that hard to see, even in a horse 2.5 years old, whether he really wants to be a hunter or a jumper. Perhaps I'm oversimplifying here, but even in Germany nowadays, the youngsters are getting segregated into "hunter type" and "jumper type" (along with "dressage type" of course). Sure, there's a horse now and again that suddenly "switches teams" later in life, but these are few and far between. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I don't agree. You can certainly tell which horses are absolutely hunters or absolutely jumpers, but those are the ones that aren't the really good ones in either discipline. The really good horses could go either way, and it's often only later on that one can determine where they'll be the most sucessful. For instance, I spent a few years competing my now very sucessful amateur hunter in the low and high jr and a/o jumpers. Only after a year of moving up to the highs was it apparent that she was too careful to be a really good upper level jumper. She would have been adequate, certainly, but not as good as she is in the hunter ring. Similarly, my coming five year old has all the scope one could want, and while starting him I had a suspicion he would end up in the jumper ring...until he started showing and demonstrated a spookiness that makes him a beautiful jumping, WEF winning hunter...who I would have about as much luck at getting over a liverpool as I would at teaching him to clean his own stall. Rox Dene could have jumped over the barn roof if you'd asked it of her, but imagine how wasted she would have been in the jumper ring.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
The young stallions being presented by all the major registries at 2.5 years old are asked to freejump _oxers_ that are this tall routinely, and the mare performance tests (at least for the Holsteiners) are also in this range for the good jumpers.
While freejumping isn't jumping under saddle, it is equally true that a horse who can comfortably and efficiently hop over a 1.4 meter oxer in the jump chute at age 30 months is very unlikely to have _physical_ problems jumping 1.4 meters under saddle as an adult.
So, while we as riders might think of 1.4 as "big," modern-bred sport horses are often not anywhere near their limits at this height. This is why it's so easy to find youngsters (in Europe, anyway) who can jump this level effectively when trained and grown.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, free-jumping isn't jumping undersaddle. Nor is jumping single fences. I completely agree that just about any horse can heave itself over 4'9 without breaking into pieces. However, when you ask them to do it in combinations, off technical distances, or particularly from an amateur error, the pool signficantly weakens. When you ask them to get to that point without developing riding or physical issues, that pool gets even smaller.

I also stand by my statement that inexperienced horses do not belong with inexperienced riders. Imagine how much more quickly that horse in your story would have lost its confidence if it hadn't already been jumping at that level before the rider change. Someone has to INSTILL the confidence in the horse before a rider tests it.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

zedcadjna
May. 1, 2004, 06:44 PM
Very well said chandra http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/zedcadjna

Exitpoint
May. 1, 2004, 07:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
You can certainly tell which horses are absolutely hunters or absolutely jumpers, but those are the ones that aren't the really good ones in either discipline. The really good horses could go either way, and it's often only later on that one can determine where they'll be the most sucessful.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Woah, we're definately on two different ends of the spectrum here. The ones that are clearly exceptional and born to do a given discipline aren't "the really good ones?" Do you actually mean this?

All I can say is that my experience is exactly, diametrically opposed to this. From the perspective of basic logic, this is like saying that younger (college- or even school-age kids) who are stunningly good at basketball and go right to the NBA are not "the really good ones" because they couldn't also go play baseball also. It's just totally counter-intuitive.

From my own experience, I'm certainly looking for young horses that look like they are freakishly talented jumpers because I am looking to develop mature horses that are exceptional. . . jumpers! A younger horse with a beautiful, easy, smooth, hunter-style jump and a nice, ground-covering, cadenced canter is the one I'd bet on to be an exceptional hunter when he grows up.

As to the ones that, theoretically, can "do it all," one phrase comes to mind. Jack of all trades, master of none. . .

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>For instance, I spent a few years competing my now very sucessful amateur hunter in the low and high jr and a/o jumpers. Only after a year of moving up to the highs was it apparent that she was too careful to be a really good upper level jumper. She would have been adequate, certainly, but not as good as she is in the hunter ring.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

"Too careful to be a really good upper level jumper?" I guess I ride jumpers under different rules than you, but in the jumper classes I ride, the "careful" horses win. Careful means not hitting fences, correct? How can a horse be "too careful for the jumpers," and what does this have to do with hunter talent? I'm really not understanding this at all.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Rox Dene could have jumped over the barn roof if you'd asked it of her, but imagine how wasted she would have been in the jumper ring.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you saying that she could have been an International-level jumper? Apart from the hypothetical nature of the discussion, this seems an odd assertion to make. Can you cite any successful hunters who also have had successful careers as top-level jumpers? I can't think of any, but perhaps I just am not well informed in this area.

Frankly, I see much more commonality in modern-type dressage horses and modern-type jumpers (in terms of both body and mind) than I do between American hunters and International-caliber jumpers.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>No, free-jumping isn't jumping undersaddle. Nor is jumping single fences. I completely agree that just about any horse can heave itself over 4'9 without breaking into pieces. However, when you ask them to do it in combinations, off technical distances, or particularly from an amateur error, the pool signficantly weakens. When you ask them to get to that point without developing riding or physical issues, that pool gets even smaller.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As I said earlier (and I was discussing 1.40 meters, not 1.45 meters), 1.40 meters is many steps below the "top of the sport," and there are very many horses in the world today that are fully capable of doing these level courses (in competition), both mentally and physically.

What we lack in North America is the riders that can ride these courses well, not the horseflesh. Yes, we do have a pool of outstanding riders at 1.45 and up (many of whom are world-class in all respects), relative to our total population of riders we have a tiny percentage in the 1.45 and up category.

Now, when one gets to 1.60. . . well, I continue to belive that, globally, there are more riders capable at this level than horses who excel at this level. Others may well disagree, of course.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I also stand by my statement that inexperienced horses do not belong with inexperienced riders. Imagine how much more quickly that horse in your story would have lost its confidence if it hadn't already been jumping at that level before the rider change. Someone has to INSTILL the confidence in the horse before a rider tests it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

&lt;chuckles&gt; well, that's certainly a different perspective on the example I cited. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I'd simply say this: imagine if we taught people here how to train and instill confidence in horses at all levels, instead of assuming it's ok to go to Europe, buy a horse that another (truly well-educated) rider has schooled and developed and educated, and ruin it in the process of chasing ribbons in lower-level classes for the sake of ego?

Yes, it certainly is easier to let someone else do the work and take the risks of developing a horse to the higher levels of the sport. For me at least, that isn't in the least bit satisfying. To paraphrase Terry Roosevelt, I'd rather have tried and failed than have sat on the sidelines and thrown stones at others who are themselves giving full effort to the challenge.

At this point, however, I'm not quite ready to categorize my own efforts in the "tried and failed" category. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I find that the old adage holds true: you can't win if you don't play.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

Exitpoint
May. 1, 2004, 07:46 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pony Fan:
The High Junior Jumpers at the "A" shows we attend run at 1.45 metres and most of the smaller Grand Prixs are 1.50.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow! Can you point me at the show prizelists you are referring to? If the "smaller" Grands Prix are 1.50. . . what are the big ones? Sounds like, in your neck of the woods, the GPs are bigger than the World Cup.

I'd also expect that, if the high A/Os are routinely and consistently set at 1.45 meters, you guys must have seriously kick-ass pool of amateur riders who could come out to our "little" shows in the West (like Indio) and clean up in our GPs since our "big" GPs out here are 1.50 and I've not seen a class larger than that outside of Spruce.

Even at Spruce, the 1.50 division is second in size only to the 1.60 which is the stomping grounds of guys with names like Beerbaum, Fuchs, Pessoa, and so forth (and Beezie!). At 1.50, we're still seeing the Europeans taking lots of ribbons at Spruce along with the top American professional riders (Spooner, etc.).

Where are you guys? I think you are living in an alternate-reality showjumping universe and if your reality ever leaks into "our" reality, we're going to get our asses kicked by your legions of 1.50-meter jumpin' Zen masters! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

Box-of-Rox
May. 1, 2004, 08:30 PM
exitpoint:
ok, first, what ponyfan said about heights is true. low jr/ao classes that i did as a junior were, point blank, 1.30m. they were set at that at WEF, at old salem, lake placid, hampton classic. that's what they are. the highs were usually run at level 7 during the week, and level 8 on the weekend. in the rulebook (i know 'cuz i just looked online!) it says that jr/amateur classes can be run at level 8 if there are more than 30 people or if prize money was more than 5k. on a sunday class, prize money is almost always more than 5k, and these shows are big. i never did the highs, i don't know how many were in it, but seeing as how there was often 90 in the lows, i'm sure they could rustle up 30 for the big ring. going by the WEF conversion, level 8 is 1.45m.

furthermore, "big" grand prix, like the WEF ones, are set at the international standard. smaller gp's are usally set between levels 8 and 9. level 9 goes up to 5'. 5' is over 1.50m, by a smidge, if i did the conversion right. shows like WEF have a 1.50 DIVISION, that goes during the week, that is independent of the grand prix, and is considered by Stadium Jumping to be set at "national level," which is indeed what, say, the culpeper or vermont grand prix are set at, or some of the friday classes at the the bigger shows.

I don't know what your whole 1.60 argument is about, but, yeah, that's sick big.



in regards to what you said to chanda: are you insane?

a) a good jumper and a good hunter have the SAME initial qualifications. they need to be fabulous jumpers (in a similar style, too) with big, even strides. if a horse is "quick" then he *might* make a great jumper, but more likely he's going to make a nice low children's horse. if he shows the smooth hunter type jump? then i'm guessing you're saying he doesn't have the scope for the jumpers, in which case one of the back crackers will come along and kick that horse's hiney. horses that demonstrate both characteristics will often make it to the show ring before they really decide what they want to be. a lot of people have videos of their hunters doing the jumpers in europe, and they're happily plodding around 1.30+ stuff, keeping all the rails up and all, except they spend a lot of time in the air. that's not good for a jumper, so they go to hunterland, where it is good.

as for the "too careful thing"--please, you have lovely horses, you seem to do things at a fairly high standard, how could you not have heard of a horse being too careful? horses that are too careful are bad. you don't want a horse being overly impressed by things, because again you lose time in the air, but more importantly they can take off or land sticky and then you get in trouble if the distances are long. water and ditches and the like can be an issue. also, amateurs make mistakes, and a very careful horse will not put up with that. when a horse will not jump a jump unless he knows he can leave it up, that is too carefull. you don't want to be on one of those in a jump-off. the ones that close their eyes and hike up their toes are far more preferable.

i don't think that chanda was saying rox dene could have been a top class jumper at all. i think she was saying she had the scope to jump around a bigger course than the regular hunters, but that she would have been wasted because she wasn't a "jumper"--it honestly probably goes back to the hang time thing. if your horse loses a lot of time in the air, they're not good jumpers. but if they jump like rox dene, you don't throw them out of the jumper pool until you know that, which is not until they've come along a bit.

lastly, americans do not go to buy horses in europe from amateurs. they buy them from dealers and other professionals. If you can afford to go to europe and buy an ubermade, fancy horse, why not? if you can't, you're forced to make one up yourself, but it's no more honorable than buying a nice horse. most people are like ponyfan's kid: they have one that is more easy and one that is a challenge. maybe you are comfortable moving up the ranks with a horse. a lot of us are not.

saying that a green horse green rider combination could work out, or could be made to work out, is like saying a chestnut mare could or could be made to work out. sure, but if you don't have to go there, why would you? riding is really, really, freaking expensive. why try one thing, that has a much greater propensity for failure, when you have the ability to try something that already has a fairly substantial margin for failure that hasn't been exacerbated by your self-righteousness?

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

[This message was edited by Box-of-Rox on May. 02, 2004 at 09:11 AM.]

Nirvana
May. 1, 2004, 09:02 PM
Just to add my two cents....

As far as horses who competed successfully in the hunters and jumpers are concerned, think STARMAN. Champion Regular Working Hunter and Olympic Gold Medalist with Anne K.

______________________________

*Formerly known as Seabiscuit*

xegeba
May. 1, 2004, 10:41 PM
Box, When you said Americans don't but horses from A/O's in Europe you are correct. They buy them from the dealers that have gone to the shows and bought them from the A/o's for a fraction of the cost that they charge the Ugly Americans. If the Americans went to the shows in Europe and dealt directly with the owner showing the horse they would save a fortune. Plenty of trainers in the USA do just that. Go to the show, watch mediocre owner manuever course, offer bucks, bring home and triple price. Nothing wrong with that either.

[This message was edited by xegeba on May. 02, 2004 at 01:53 AM.]

xegeba
May. 1, 2004, 10:53 PM
Exitpoint... what to do? Everything you have said is right on the money, but I've got a kid ... safety is paramount to me. I need a horse who has been there and done that, one who is forgiving of mistakes. As a horseperson Exitpoint... Assuming that the kid has got all the components, except experience, parents have got the money(but don't want to burn it and don't want to ruin a horse either) what is the most practical course of action?

Box-of-Rox
May. 1, 2004, 10:53 PM
xegeba, i know! the difference in price between people who buy horses through their trainers who actually go to shows and those who just go to big dealers is huge. i actually didn't know that a lot of people did that. most that i've talked to seem to get them from "connections--" which are almost always dealers (unless the "connections" is where the trainer gets the markup http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

BoR:
"I always feel like an idiot. But I am an idiot, so it kinda works out."--Billy Madison

"A fanatic is one who can't change his mind and won't change the subject."--Churchill

xegeba
May. 1, 2004, 11:05 PM
Box, the trainers in the US don't have the time to go to the shows, cause they are too busy taking care of all of us!!!! The dealers have a right to be paid for the time and effort spent,but for the most part we are way overpaying for horses that are no more special than the ones we have here.However, that being said, the across the pond ponies seem to be better tempered than home grown. I'm just confused... pay no attention.

Pony Fan
May. 2, 2004, 05:54 AM
Exitpoint -

I stand by what I said and I do not live "in an alternate-reality showjumping universe". We show WEF, Vermont, many of the HITS shows, Equifest, Hampton Classic, Lake Placid and hopefully, later this year in the Prix Des States at Harrisburg and Young Riders. As Box Of Rox pointed out, at these shows, the High Junior Jumpers show at Levels 7 and 8. And many small ($25,000 and under) Grand Prixs run at levels 8 and 9 which as Box of Rox pointed out is roughly 4'9" - 5". I consider a "big" Grand Prix like the Sunday Grand Prix at WEF, or the Grand Prix at the Hampton Classic.

And Exitpoint, while I appreciate what you have to say, your tone is coming off as somewhat condescending and your statements contradictory. If you believe that "...we do have a pool of outstanding riders at 1.45 and up...", then that would have to include the Juniors on the "A" circuit doing the Highs. And the method usually used with these kids is to teach them how to do it on a made horse before you allow them to tackle the courses on a greener one. This is the method that has been used to train virtually all of the top pros showing now who came out of the junior ranks.

While you and your green horse may have come through the learning curve unscathed, I believe that to be the exception that proves the rule!

and Box of Rox -

Thanks for the support! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

www.perfectponies.com (http://www.perfectponies.com)

scrubs
May. 2, 2004, 07:12 AM
Exitpoint - THANK YOU for that reply to C. Boylen & others - it was right on the money. It is obvious that many do not see the specialists verses generalist trend (whethter that is right or wrong I won't get into) in breeding. And to say that a horse that "heaves" itself over a freejump fence is considered a good jumper...huh????? leaving poles up and having jumping talent are two way different things. Freejumping can tell you tons about what a horse is going to do, you just have to have experience and knowledge and understanding of evaluating the jumping form and ability. Too many sit by the show ring and watch dead made horses loping around a ring to know what real potential looks like in the rough. Get the green riders educated instead of relying on commission-focused trainers (who don't know HOW to train green horses & riders) and you 'll get a better base of horses and riders. It is much easier for a trainer to train a lower level rider on an easy horse - thus keep the show money rolling in - see its all related: Our level of riding, the shopping for "made" horses that have bags of problems, trainers incabable of bringing along young horses that have TONS of potential, trainers unwilling to spend their time at the barn working on horse & rider basics instead of racking up the invoices for showing. And box-of-rox, hunters and modern, international level jumpers jump in COMPLETELY different form - they are specialists - they have to jump differently.

Exitpoint
May. 2, 2004, 11:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Box-of-Rox:
ok, first, what ponyfan said about heights is true. low jr/ao classes that i did as a junior were, point blank, 1.30m. they were set at that at WEF, at old salem, lake placid, hampton classic. that's what they are. the highs were usually run at level 7 during the week, and level 8 on the weekend. in the rulebook (i know 'cuz i just looked online!) it says that jr/amateur classes can be run at level 8 if there are more than 30 people or if prize money was more than 5k. on a sunday class, prize money is almost always more than 5k, and these shows are big. i never did the highs, i don't know how many were in it, but seeing as how there was often 90 in the lows, i'm sure they could rustle up 30 for the big ring. going by the WEF conversion, level 8 is 1.45m.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

These data (without even links to the entry forms) aren't supporting the original statement. I'd like you guys to back up the statement that the high AOs are actually, routinely set AT 1.45, not that they "might" get there or "it seems to me that" or "they can go UP TO" or all of this.

WEF doesn't count. WEF isn't the "local" circuit and I don't believe either of you live in Florida. WEF, like Indio, is a world unto it's own. Classes at WEF are big, that's the whole idea. The big GPs at WEF are the biggest classes in North America, outside of Spruce.

Generalizing about shows like Lake Placid based on the biggest classes offered at WEF is disengenuous. If you guys won't, I'll go look up the prizelist for Placid and a few other local shows. Remember that I grew up competing on that circuit, I know those shows fairly well even though I was a little rugrat when I was riding it!

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>furthermore, "big" grand prix, like the WEF ones, are set at the international standard. smaller gp's are usally set between levels 8 and 9. level 9 goes up to 5'. 5' is over 1.50m, by a smidge, if i did the conversion right. shows like WEF have a 1.50 DIVISION, that goes during the week, that is independent of the grand prix, and is considered by Stadium Jumping to be set at "national level," which is indeed what, say, the culpeper or vermont grand prix are set at, or some of the friday classes at the the bigger shows.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Again, nice try but you are stretching things a hair too far here (or perhaps more than a hair). The statement was made that the SMALL GPs were SET at 1.50 meters "back there." Using the BIG GPs at WEF to support this statement is, frankly, facile.

Show me an entry for a SMALL GP (less than $25k prizemoney, or heck less than $30k) that is SET to 1.50 meters. Not counting Spruce, not counting WEF (though I don't think the "small" GPs at WEF are 1.5, even).

If somebody is going to get on here and make factual statements like this that are (on the basis of the data I have) flat-out wrong, then they either need to back up the statements or apologize for mis-speaking. I don't want to be too pedantic here, but there's a rather substantive point here.

I've stated that a horse capable of doing the high AOs is not needing to jump anywhere near the "top of the sport" and that finding horses with this potential isn't horribly difficult given today's sporthorse breeding and genetics. C. Boylen disagreed, saying that these classes in this alternate-reality universe are set at given heights, and therefore the only way for ammies to get around them is to buy proven World Cup horses from Europe to "gain experience."

I say that's hogwash, and that even a middling Holsteiner (using my breed as an example) can jump high AO with even an amateur doing most of the training. Not counting Spruce (whose "amateur" classes generally top out at 1.4 meters listed height anyway, I just checked my entry book), Indio, or WEF. Amateurs who want to win at these three in the top amateur division need a pretty solid horse, I agree. Amateurs who want to win at the "local" shows, or even place or go 'round well, don't need the top of the line. The "top of the line" can jump essentially TWELVE INCHES higher than the high AO at 95% of shows in North America.

Please, let's not confuse folks who might not have decades of experience in the sport. Let's also not over-inflate the skills and competitive level of most North American shows relative to world standards. We do not have a deep pool of amateurs jumping solid 1.45 meters in competition, and we do not have a deep pool of pros jumping 1.50+. As I always say, those that we do have are often stellar riders and horsemen, not knocking them, but the layer at the top is awful thin.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I don't know what your whole 1.60 argument is about, but, yeah, that's sick big.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Over your head I guess. . . couldn't resist the pun.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>in regards to what you said to chanda: are you insane?

a) a good jumper and a good hunter have the SAME initial qualifications. they need to be fabulous jumpers (in a similar style, too) with big, even strides. if a horse is "quick" then he *might* make a great jumper, but more likely he's going to make a nice low children's horse. if he shows the smooth hunter type jump? then i'm guessing you're saying he doesn't have the scope for the jumpers, in which case one of the back crackers will come along and kick that horse's hiney. horses that demonstrate both characteristics will often make it to the show ring before they really decide what they want to be.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I may be insane, but I'm not stupid. I'm also baffled by your statements, but I think some of it comes down to use of language.

First, having a "smooth jump" has nothing to do with scope (German Vermoegen) or lack of it. Smooth is opposite of rough (in English), not opposite of "scopey."

Where you equate jumper talent with "big, even strides" is a mystery to me. Sure, we want a good, solid canter in jumpers but I've never seen people measuring stride length in youngsters to see if they are going to be good jumper prospects.

Hunter people want big, even strides. Sure. Jumper people want jumping talent. These are. . . different. Different sport, different desired type of horse. It's amazing to hear the counter-argument to this. Have you ever been to Europe to watch young horses and talk with buyers? Have you ever brought horses over from Europe, started and sold them?

Not to pull rank, but I have done both for almost 10 years now. I've brought over "greenies" and turned them into jumpers. I've brought over two and turned them into hunters (they were obviously hunters which is why I bought them). I've even created a high-end equitation horse that I bought in Europe. All are here, on the ground, doing their work. I've sat and watched well over 1,000 young stallions go through the jump chute in Neumunster over the years, bought half a dozen of those myself. I've visited countless hundreds more on farms and in fields.

That's where my opinion comes from. Where does your statement about hunters and jumpers being the same horses come from? Genuinely, I'm baffled.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>a lot of people have videos of their hunters doing the jumpers in europe, and they're happily plodding around 1.30+ stuff, keeping all the rails up and all, except they spend a lot of time in the air. that's not good for a jumper, so they go to hunterland, where it is good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

WHO? The hunter I bought in Europe, I took him up to 1.3 in the jumpers here during his traning, true, but then again that's me. Who are all these hunters who were jumping BIGGER (that's why you used the "+," correct?) than 1.30 in competition, in Europe, successfully, before coming to America to be hunters?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>as for the "too careful thing"--please, you have lovely horses, you seem to do things at a fairly high standard, how could you not have heard of a horse being too careful? horses that are too careful are bad. you don't want a horse being overly impressed by things, because again you lose time in the air, but more importantly they can take off or land sticky and then you get in trouble if the distances are long. water and ditches and the like can be an issue. also, amateurs make mistakes, and a very careful horse will not put up with that. when a horse will not jump a jump unless he knows he can leave it up, that is too carefull. you don't want to be on one of those in a jump-off. the ones that close their eyes and hike up their toes are far more preferable.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry, but I have NEVER heard of a jumper being washed out because he was "too careful" or because he "spends too much time in the air." Never. Granted, I've only been around the jumper game for 25 years or so. . . but you'd think I would have heard of this right?

In jumpers, careful horses win. Period. Careful and FAST horses might beat careful horses, sure. But both beat horses that knock down rails. How many double-clear rides are there in most GPs? A few, less than a dozen but more than one most often. That careful horse that you envision hanging in the air, never hitting rails. He's going to be in 2nd or 3rd or 5th place, every weekend. That's money in the bank, and nobody is going to wash him out because he's "too careful" or spends "too much time in the air."

This "spending lots of time in the air" thing, it's mystifying to me as well. Do they levitate? Are they filled with helium? Are they over-jumping fences so much that they are just hanging up there forever?

You seem to be using the word "careful" as a synonym for "spooky." That's incorrect usage. Yes, a genuninely spooky horse can be a failure as a jumper if that can't be overcome. And a spooky horse who a pro can ride might be too much for an amateur to get around a course filled with flowerpots and tons of other scary stuff.

That, however, is not in the least bit related to "careful." Careful horses don't hit fences, they don't like it. Some careful horses are also spooky (not many, as the careful ones tend to be a bit technical and intellectual about their jump and thus don't fluster as easy), most aren't. Some spooky horses are careful, most aren't. They are completely unrelated.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>i don't think that chanda was saying rox dene could have been a top class jumper at all. i think she was saying she had the scope to jump around a bigger course than the regular hunters, but that she would have been wasted because she wasn't a "jumper"--it honestly probably goes back to the hang time thing. if your horse loses a lot of time in the air, they're not good jumpers. but if they jump like rox dene, you don't throw them out of the jumper pool until you know that, which is not until they've come along a bit.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Apart from the whole "hang time" thing which I've addressed above, I'm in total agreement with you here. She could have been nice jumper, but an off-the-scale hunter. Superb at one, merely good at the other (hypothetically).

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>saying that a green horse green rider combination could work out, or could be made to work out, is like saying a chestnut mare could or could be made to work out. sure, but if you don't have to go there, why would you? riding is really, really, freaking expensive. why try one thing, that has a much greater propensity for failure, when you have the ability to try something that already has a fairly substantial margin for failure that hasn't been exacerbated by your self-righteousness?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why would you? Because some of us want to learn to ride horses, not just sit on horses that others have trained and appear to ride them ourselves.

No, there's nothing "wrong" with buying a horse somebody else trained. However, for those whose goals in the sport are more than sitting on other's horses, it's a dead-end in terms of our own learning. Learning how to train horses to the higher levels requires training horses to the higher levels. Riding other's horses won't really teach us how to do that.

It's not a question of righteousness, but rather of skills and goals. I hope you can see that. Also, the original posters in this thread didn't have a few hundred grand of family money to give to a broker in Europe to find a pre-made horse. Given a limited budget, the options shrink. Not everyone has daddy ready to write the check, or a "sponsor" ready to buy them World Cup horses from Europe at the drop of a hat when the last one is ruined and a new one is needed.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

JEP
May. 2, 2004, 12:28 PM
Exitpoint, perhaps your posts would be better recieved if you could keep an eye on the "attitude" that tends to accompany the information you post.

I think some may have difficulty getting through your (often lengthy) responses when they are peppered with condescending, snippy, or sarcastic remarks; these remarks do little to lend credibility to the author, and undoubtedly leave some readers feeling a little offended. The best experts in any field need not spend time convincing others why they should be regarded as true "experts"-they can simply go about their business and let their work/words speak for themselves.

It sounds as though you have spent a lot of time building up your horse knowledge and I'm sure you have tons of insight to offer on a variety of issues. You seem to have a lot of strong opinions and seem very keen on sharing them-again, nothing wrong with this. I think it's fabulous when people are willing to go out on a limb and express their true feelings on issues that matter to them.

All I am saying is that a little humility/modesty might go a long way in getting your message across. Clearly you are confident in your abilities as a rider, breeder, trainer, etc., and we all know you have these fabulous Holsteiners whom you love dearly and spend much time caring for. Maybe by backing up your opinions with more outside support/examples, (and less personal credentials/reasons why we should trust you as an authority), you'd do a greater service to yourself and your abilities, as your posts may be heard more clearly.

Just a suggestion, and clearly just my opinion. I certainly do not intend this to be a personal attack directed at you, Exitpoint. I honestly think you have some interesting things to say, and I so appreciate your willingness to contribute to these discussions. I wish I devoted as much time/energy to do the same. Just wanted to give you a heads up as to why you may feel, at times, that your posts are met with a little resistance.

Pony Fan
May. 2, 2004, 12:52 PM
Exitpoint -

You asked me where I showed. I told you where I showed. No, I don't live in FL. Neither do most of the people who show WEF!

I can tell you, without generalization that at the shows I listed with the exception of Vermont, the prize lists call for the High Junior Jumpers to be run at Level 7 or 8 (Lake Placid, for your information, is Level 8 "SECTION A - High U.S. Equestrian Level 8". That's quoted from the prize list!). At our "local" "A" circuit, the shows run by Showplace Productions, the High Junior Jumpers run at Level 7 for the classes and Level 8 for the Classics. That's what we show.

Why should I have to support my data with links? My kid is out ther showing it! As my daughter is trying to collect points to qualify for the Prix Des States and ONLY monies won in classes at Level 7 or above count, I think I can say accurately what shows offer classes at that level!

As for smaller Grand Prixs set at "National Standard" (Level 9 or slightly more than 1.50 metre), the following Grand Prixs would meet this standard:

Lexington Classic ($25,000) weeks 1, 2, 3 of the upcoming Kentucky circuit at the horse Park

Showplace Spring Spectacular I and II ($30,000)

The Vermont Circuit Grand Prixs (All 5 weeks) ($35,000)

The Mascup Winter series ($10,000 and $15,000 depending on the week) January, February and March (6 shows total)

These are just the first I could find in my prize list files. Is THAT factual enough for you!!

I REALLY Take offense at your tone. You basically came out and accused Box of Rox and myself of twisting facts and you call for an apology. I anticipate recieving mine! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

The original question asked about pricing a High Junior Horse and this discussion has gone waaaay off topic.

www.perfectponies.com (http://www.perfectponies.com)

NCJumperGuy
May. 2, 2004, 02:12 PM
You hit the nail on the head JEP http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Exitpoint
May. 2, 2004, 03:11 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JEP:
Just a suggestion, and clearly just my opinion. I certainly do not intend this to be a personal attack directed at you, Exitpoint. I honestly think you have some interesting things to say, and I so appreciate your willingness to contribute to these discussions. I wish I devoted as much time/energy to do the same. Just wanted to give you a heads up as to why you may feel, at times, that your posts are met with a little resistance.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your words are well written, and appreciated. If my goal was to be the most popular kid in the class, or convert the world to my religion, then yes I'd tone it all down and probably avoid controvertial topics in the first place. After all, stating "common wisdom" rarely results in disagreement.

Alas, I am quite guilty of stirring the pot from time to time. I find this to be productive, personally, because when I state my opinions forcefully then often others will argue back in earnest and that's how I like to learn. If I am wrong, then I should be proven wrong. If I'm not wrong, perhaps the discussion will encourage others to think of alternate approaches to the standard wisdom.

Occasionally, I do fall back on personal experience to support a given statement. Online, I think this is often lacking as it is really quite often that we weight the words of people discussing a topic on the basis of who they are and what their firsthand experience is. Opinions are like you-know-what online, and at the least I'm comfortable with people dismissing my opinions on the basis of what my life experience brings to bear on the subject.

Finally, there's a self-selection bias clearly visible here. I'm only going to take the time out of my day to post things here about which I feel fairly strongly, and others who disagree must have the same criteria. If I didn't feel strongly about a topic, I wouldn't bother posting! And while self-censorship of tone and manner might win converts, I'm just not patient enough or concerned enough about "winning converts" to engage in it.

I am who I am, and I don't claim to be any more than that. My opinions are simply that: opinions. Some I can back up, some are gut feeling. Some matter, most don't. On the particular topic at hand, I've benefitted personally from the discussion as it has not only made me think more on these topics, it has also animated several face-to-face conversations with colleagues in recent days.

I don't mind disagreeing, I don't mind arguing. I do mind personal attacks, and I've seen little of that in this topic (or most anywhere on the CFs). Heated discussion, yes. Perhaps it's not politically correct to say so, but I don't think heated discussion (with professional courtesy still present) is bad. We can all sugar-coat our opinions and pretend to agree, or sometimes we can disagree and we can debate the how and why. We will likely never come to agree, all of us, but is that really the goal?

In any case, as I said I do appreciate your words. I can't say I'm likely to tone down much, and I suppose it is fortunate that I rarely get into threads around here. Too busy with the horses, and too jaded by years of online debates to really get much visceral excitement from the process itself.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

CBoylen
May. 2, 2004, 03:54 PM
Well, this is going to be a long post http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif
First of all, I don't think we're visualizing the same thing when talking about separating youngsters into disciplines. This discrepancy might be because the hunter discipline is so weak in Canada. Now, since we were talking about young prospects, I certainly did not mean to imply that either discipline was not specialized. Certainly, once the horse is trained and competing it is a specialist. However, as a youngster, many of these horses display a potential to do either discipline. Of course some do not. Good jumping horses are good jumping horses, whatever discipline they end up in, and a good canter is necessary either way. The horses that you can pigeonhole as youngsters, the quick, the hot, the scopey (or not) unorthodox stylists, or conversely, the limited in scope good stylist who's pretty and a good mover, sure, they MIGHT end up being great as jumpers, or MIGHT make it in the hunter ring, but if they don't they're worthless, because they can't succeed in the opposing discipline. There are plenty of horses that aren't hunters who aren't jumpers either, and vice versa. However, a scopey horse with a good style has the POTENTIAL to be great at either discipline, and is far more likely to be so.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Too careful to be a really good upper level jumper?" I guess I ride jumpers under different rules than you, but in the jumper classes I ride, the "careful" horses win. Careful means not hitting fences, correct? How can a horse be "too careful for the jumpers," and what does this have to do with hunter talent? I'm really not understanding this at all <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
D. Spink, I'm also amazed that you haven't heard this term. Too careful is just that. Sometimes the horse is simply too careful for an amateur, ie so unwilling to hit the jumps that it also completely falls apart when faced with a mistake, or sometimes, as was the case with my mare, the horse is simply so careful as to be a danger to itself, jumping each fence with a good foot to spare, and thus putting itself in a position to unable to get out of a long or big combination, particularly oxer-oxer. You can of course also see the artificially too careful, such as the US WC horse from a while back who would literally flip itself over from being overtuned behind. At best, a too careful horse is a liability in the jump-off, only the winner when the slow clear can pull it off. For example, Harold's horse Kathleen is the type that hangs in the air, thus limiting his ability to go fast.
As to the 1.60 class, I'm not sure why we would need that class in this country. Our GP horses jump at most 3 times a week, and no one wants to do a 5'3 course for less money. Most do a 1.50, which is our "open" division at places other than WEF that don't use the metric (although at some places the open is closer to 1.45), or the weekday GP, which is 1.50 most places, and 1.50 with a couple 1.60 verticles at WEF. The international standard GPs at WEF, or Lake Placid, or Indio, are just that, with a majority of the course set at 1.60. No one wants to school that for less money, it's a waste of horse.
Our national standard GPs, at HITS, KY, and all of the other AA shows with good GP money, are 1.50. That's why we have national and international standards. To standardize.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> And to say that a horse that "heaves" itself over a freejump fence is considered a good jumper...huh????? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Scrubs, read for comprehension. I think you'll find you didn't do that the first time around.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Generalizing about shows like Lake Placid based on the biggest classes offered at WEF is disengenuous. If you guys won't, I'll go look up the prizelist for Placid and a few other local shows<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
The prizelist for LP lists the GPs at international standard, and the A/O at level eight, which is 1.40. The 1.50 stakes (weekday GP) are clearly labeled national standard.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>C. Boylen disagreed, saying that these classes in this alternate-reality universe are set at given heights, and therefore the only way for ammies to get around them is to buy proven World Cup horses from Europe to "gain experience <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think if you go back you may find that I did not endorse buying WC horses. I mentioned that if one wants to show at WEF in the high a/os and be competitive, one needs a legitimate GP horse. I also said, that if one avoided the highs at WEF they could get away with a horse not quite at that caliber. I don't think I mentioned Europe anywhere, but feel free to check.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>She [Rox Dene] could have been nice jumper, but an off-the-scale hunter. Superb at one, merely good at the other (hypothetically).<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And that was my point. However, if we were free-jumping her at 4 years old, she would simply have been a nice horse that could have gone either way. If she'd have been with a jumper oriented person, they probably would have tried her in the jumpers before figuring out that her real talent was in the hunter ring. Lisa Jacquin was quoted all over the place calling my new horse "international caliber" when he was in her barn as a four year old. He now makes a top amateur and second year hunter at 7. Even the riders at the top can make mistakes in aiming horses towards the correct ring when presented with them as youngsters. That is why I cautioned the average amateur against the purchase of horse with only potential toward what they want to do.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

Exitpoint
May. 2, 2004, 04:10 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Pony Fan:
I REALLY Take offense at your tone. You basically came out and accused Box of Rox and myself of twisting facts and you call for an apology. I anticipate recieving mine! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I apologize for being a crabby old man, and I blame it all on my lack of coffee. Oh, and on Capone since he was being a wild man on Friday and my ankle is more sore than usual! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Showplace Spring Spectacular I and II ($30,000)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Picked this one at random, and found their website (http://www.showplaceproductions.com/index.htm), and the prizelist (http://www.showplaceproductions.com/acrobat/SpringBook2004_hi.pdf) for the Spring Spectacular.

The "High Junior/Amateur Owner Jumper" section (page 20) lists as "Fences Level 7." According to that prizelist, Level 7 USAE equates to "fences 4 foot 3 to 4 foot 6" (again taken verbatim from the prizelist, page 19). This is not 1.45 meters, not even "up to" 1.45 meters, but is rather up to 1.40 meters. Not to beat a dead horse, but this is exactly what I had said earlier.

You are correct that the $10,000 AO "Classic" lists Level 8, which is listed as "up to" 4 foot 9 (1.45 meters).

While there may well be 1.45 meter high AO classes (not "classics" or money classes, but rather the classes in the division itself, day in and day out) at WEF and Indio, in 95% of shows in North America, AOs don't routinely go at 1.45 meters. I just don't think this is a point of argument, though perhaps if someone takes the time to survey the other shows then a different picture will emerge. Does USAE have some sort of national, consolidated statistics on classes?

Interestingly (paradoxically?), the program also lists "Open Jumper 1.30m" as "Fences Level 6," which according to the prizelist table translates to "fences 4 foot to 4 foot 3." However, on the Yahoo metric converter (http://education.yahoo.com/reference/weights_and_measures/), 130 centimeters translates to 51.18 inches (4 feet 3.2 inches). This means, I suppose, that the 1.30 class is fences up to 1.30 meters. When I think of a 1.3 meter class, I'm thinking of a course of more or less 1.3 meter fences, not a class that might get a vertical at that height.

I know 1.3, 1.4, and 1.5 meters primarily from Spruce. I've carried a tape measure there while walking courses and measured fences myself. That's why I carry one at home when schooling, and measure before (or after) each session. Ok, actually I mark the measurements on the standards so I don't have to go about measuring every day! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

As to the "little" GPs at this show (both are $30k classes, which technically doesn't qualify as "less than $30k"), they do indeed list as "National Standard" level. According to the USAE rulebook (http://www.usef.org/documents/ruleBook/2004/Rule-XXVII.pdf), the Levels go from 1 to 9 with 9 being 4 foot 9 to 5 feet, also listed as 1.50 meter. This is referred to as "International" in the USAE materials, so I am going out on a limb and guessing that "National Level" is NOT the same as "International Level," but in all fairness I cannot find "National Level" defined anywhere in the USAE rules. See pages 9-10 for the level descriptions, as well as the International Level designation.

If 9 (i.e. 1.50 meters) were in fact "National Level," and 9 is the top of the scale for USAE (there is no Level 10 listed), then there would be no way to designate the big GPs at, say, WEF, not to mention World Cup qualifiers and so forth.

In sum, I stand by my assertion that there are not a host of small GPs in America set at 1.50 meters. WEF, Indio, Spruce, yes - many of these 1.5 meter GPs are in fact World Cup qualifiers. Some are bigger than 1.5, but I've never seen small GPs in America set at 1.5 meters.

The USAE rules seem to back me up on this, if I am reading them correctly. 1.5 is "International" in the USAE rules, clearly not the standard at which local GPs are set.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>These are just the first I could find in my prize list files. Is THAT factual enough for you!!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Plenty factual, only thing is the facts you cite aren't congruent with what you are arguing.

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

Exitpoint
May. 2, 2004, 04:23 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by C.Boylen:
The prizelist for LP lists the GPs at international standard, and the A/O at level eight, which is 1.40. The 1.50 stakes (weekday GP) are clearly labeled national standard.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I checked the Lake Placid (http://www.lakeplacidhorseshow.com/jumper.html) class specs, and they do list the AO High as "Level 8." However, they then list right after that "fence heights to 4 foot 6 with spreads to 5 foot), which is NOT what the USAE says is Level 8. USAE says 4 foot 6 to 4 foot 9 is Level 8.

I'm corn-fused, so I give up. Someday I hope to run some of those shows, and I'll just bring a tape measure and figure out what the heck is what!

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

Pony Fan
May. 2, 2004, 05:04 PM
Okay....throwing my hands up in the air and moving on....

Exitpoint - Early on in this thread you said:

"So, for the East Coasters, if you guys are seeing a different situation in the high amateurs I offer my apologies! I can't have a meanigful opinion on things I don't know, and I don't know the amateur classes back east (or in the midwest, for the most part, outside of Spruce which is sort of midwest)."

Okay, we show in the Midwest AND the East Coast. I tried to tell you what the situation is. I said that the High Junior Jumpers are held at Level 7 and 8. And when a prize list states Level 7 at the "A" shows, in our experience, it means the fences ARE GOING TO BE 4'6" and when it says Level 8 the fences ARE GOING TO BE 4'9". It's how they seperate the 25 - 35 entries in the class! National Level Grand Prixs are set at 5'. My horse shows in the Grand Prixs. I walk the courses.

What else can I say?!

Calvaro V - If I can offer any other help or advice, please feel free to PT me.

www.perfectponies.com (http://www.perfectponies.com)

hadalittlelamb
May. 2, 2004, 06:16 PM
Wow!! this thread is starting to resemble the "no lungeing at Devon" thread, with Exitpoint playing CellosPride's part, only instead of disabilities, it's what is RIGHT when it comes to anything relating to jumping and the people and rules in the sport. COME ON!!!

Puhleeze people!! GET OVER YOURSELVES!!! I don't see any of your names on the "He or she who knows it ALL" list, so if you don't have anything to write about "What would you expect to pay for a high junior A/O jumper horse," then don't write anything at all!! PTs are an option for a reason, so you can go and bitch all you want without having to subject anyone else to this pre-teen behaviour!

At least in this case, Pony Fan has some brains and is "moving on". Thank you.

oxer
May. 2, 2004, 08:15 PM
just an interesting note regarding the hunter-jumper conflict. frank chapot describes in his book that they started most of their jumpers in the hunter ring first for confidence and consistant pace. this included the great gem twist. he began his career in the hunter ring before he was ready for the jumpers. just an interesting note.http://community.webshots.com/user/jumpeight

nycjumper
May. 3, 2004, 08:20 AM
Actually, I find this thread fairly interesting especially as I believe both Exitpoint & C.Boleyn indeed have indeed walked the walk as well as talked the talk. Doesn't matter whether I agree with one of them or both or neither, it's interesting to read the posts.

I don't really care about the whole "which is the correct height of the fences give or take an inch" discussion but I do find the "which discipline" and "training your own/buying pre-made" discussions thought-provoking.

So carry on http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Ridin' Fool
May. 3, 2004, 09:12 AM
I haven't read through all the pages, but back to Calvaro's original question - in the Midwest, a really nice, competent, sound and sane high A/O jumper runs between 50K - 150K. Lesser end of the spectrum might be a younger horse with not much experience in the Highs, or an older GP horse that has some "maintenance" issues.

I rode in the A/O's in the midwest for 3 years - highs are every bit of 4'6", and add in technical courses, width, water, etc. I was completely prepared for WEF, where you know it is maxed out! Keep in mind "Midwest" includes great shows held at KY Horse Park, Turfway, Lamplight, etc. These facilities often get top course designers, and rarely did I see an amateur at this level look really dangerous or make really big mistakes. Most are very competent, very good riders. Most also ride in the weekend Prix's!

jackie
May. 3, 2004, 09:59 AM
For the math challenged, bouncing between meters and levels/inches is sorta like listening in on a bi-lingual conversation-when you dont speak either language very well!
Anybody have a cheat sheet chart comparing meters to levels/inches?

Smiles
May. 3, 2004, 12:12 PM
Hey if someone particapating on this tread has premium membership I have photos of last years grandprix and I think low jr/a/o at lamplight. The fences are the real height!

Just another day!!!

oxer
May. 3, 2004, 12:26 PM
cheat sheet:
1.2 meters 3'9"
1.3 meters 4'3"
1.4 meters 4'7"
1.5 meters 4'11"
1.6 meters 5'3"

hope that helps

jackie
May. 3, 2004, 12:41 PM
Thanks that does help!

happy horse
May. 3, 2004, 01:09 PM
1.20M is 4 feet actually....1.5 is 3"9
but the rest is right! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

tardy
May. 3, 2004, 05:33 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by happy horse:
1.20M is 4 feet actually....1.5 is 3"9
but the rest is right! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is this supposed to be funny?

Calvaro V
May. 4, 2004, 01:53 PM
Gosh - I've been at a show and just got back. This has turned into quite a thread!!

Question for Weatherford on the Irish horses - where might one go to get a nice Irish horse capable of jumping the 1m 40 clases and what might you expect to pay?

Thanks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

ProzacPuppy
May. 4, 2004, 02:14 PM
Welcome back Calvaro. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Your thread went meandering all over the place. How was the show?
(I know the weather put a damper on our trainer's show- GP horse hates mud. But he did sell Jolly Jumper while there. That was a fast sale.)

I personally would love a trip to Ireland. I've always wanted to go there. Anyone know if Ireland is like Germany in that there are alot of horses to look at?

Rosie
May. 4, 2004, 03:39 PM
Gee, I agree with nycjumper....I find Exitpoint's postings to be intelligent, witty and interesting.
Same for C.Boylen.
Well, I do find the height thing a bit tedious, but other than that....do carry on!

Calvaro5, were you in La? Heard it flooded there.

Calvaro V
May. 4, 2004, 05:26 PM
Yes it was horrible. Also, they moved the jumper classics to the afternoon on the Sunday and didn't make it public. So we only found out on the morning of Sunday. We were all very upset about it and scratched. Didn't want to sit around all day and then have to drive back late at night.

Ground was very wet and horsie didn't like it one bit. Although they kept the jumps small (I don't think there was much over 3'9 even in the high juniors) - it was certainly the worst show I've been to in a while all things considered.

I heard that Jolly sold to Holly. I love that -horse - oh well you snooze you lose I suppose!!

Exitpoint
May. 4, 2004, 06:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rosie:
Well, I do find the height thing a bit tedious, but other than that....do carry on!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It is a pleasure to have the discussions here with folks who are out there getting dirt under their fingernails, so to speak. I think we've beat the fence height thing to death, though I do seem to remember it being somehow linked to the initial price of AO discussions. . . somewhere back on page 2 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Regards,

D. Spink

++++++++++++++++++++++++
Hengststation Exitpoint (http://www.stallions.net)
home of Holsteiner jumpingstallions Capone I (http://www.stallions.net/caponefreejumping.mpeg) and Cantour (http://www.beechwoodforest.com/Hengstation/CantourClip.avi). . . and, soon, German jumping pony Neuville (http://www.stallions.net/Neuville.wmv)!

xegeba
May. 4, 2004, 06:16 PM
Exitpoint, Don't go... I asked what I thought was kind of intelligent question way back there somewhere and you were too busy with heights to pay any attention to me. Could you go back and find it? I would really love your take on the matter.

hadalittlelamb
May. 4, 2004, 06:58 PM
okay, okay!! SORRY!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
I thought an apology was in order, especially now that the posts are moving away from the let's-put-in-a-quote-here-write-a-decent-sized-comment-and-repeat-until-the-post-is-nice-and-loooong posts that were sprouting. I'm sorry for my last post, it was a little much, but I thought it was needed to get away from the monotony. YES some of the posts were informative, but some people were starting to get a little too pushy when it came to who was right and who was wrong.

Oh, and Exitpoint, comparing you to CellosPride was a little much. Again, my apologies. (in case CP reads this, I was only referring to your posts, I'm not trying to put you down in any way http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Anyhoo, carry on folks http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

xegeba
May. 4, 2004, 09:40 PM
hadalittle.... I doubt that anyone will come close to CP. EVER.

[This message was edited by xegeba on May. 05, 2004 at 01:42 AM.]

Rosie
May. 5, 2004, 09:59 AM
Calvaro V,
We originally planned to come to La. and at the last min. decided Tulsa instead.
It rained and was cold but at least we were inside! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Exitpoint,
No dirt under these fingernails - I'm a HP, and a minor one at that.
However, I do like to think I'm learning a thing or two on these boards as well as hanging out for the entertainment value. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I'm trying to decide if I agree with your theory of green rider/green horse combos.....I've sure seen some scary rides with that scenario going on. Can't be good for the horse is it?

(Although my trainer seems to think my greenie may as well learn to live with my screwups now as he will rarely have a "perfect" ride wherever he ends up.)

Calvaro V
May. 5, 2004, 10:13 AM
Good decision Rosie.

I was very unhappy about the show all in all.

Illyria
May. 5, 2004, 10:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Rosie:
I'm trying to decide if I agree with your theory of green rider/green horse combos.....I've sure seen some scary rides with that scenario going on. Can't be good for the horse is it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think green is a relative term. Green as in hardly jumped or has no base, or green as in never jumped in the higher jumpers. There are lots of riders with a good base who've never done the bigger jumpers for whatever reason, but could probably ride around one of those courses just fine if they had a horse that jumped that big. And there are some people who've done the jumpers forever, but still continue to crash and burn because they haven't figured out how to ride properly, haven't taken the time to develop the basics. If it were me, I'd want a horse that had been thee, done that and would jump around even with a few rider errors.

winter
May. 5, 2004, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by happy horse:
1.20M is 4 feet actually....1.5 is 3"9
but the rest is right! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Um, no it's not.
1.2m is 3'9".
1.5m is 4'9" (150cm = 59")

Carol Ames
Jun. 24, 2006, 04:34 PM
earlier this summer there r two warmbloods here in no. va., going from $30k to $65K.

Weatherford
Jun. 24, 2006, 04:52 PM
This is a very old thread. Just a warning for anyone looking.