PDA

View Full Version : Calmers at horse trials???



Auto Be A Storm
Dec. 29, 2011, 03:43 PM
Are you allowed to have your horse on Quietex, Smart Calm Ultra or any of those calmers at a reconized horse trial???? I believe I read in the USEF drug manual that you weren't allowed to have them on calmers, but I just want to double check that i read that correctly!!!!

reay6790
Dec. 29, 2011, 04:15 PM
It's illegal but they will not test of your horse gets drug tested. Make sure none of the ingredients are on the forbidden list in those supplements. Smart calm ultra might have an illegal ingredient in it but I can't remember.

I'm from hunterland and we use calmers frequently. We also use dexamethasone and robaxin at shows.

I've used Dynamite Easy-Boy before with luck. Chelated magnesium is more easily absorbed by the body.

Hilary
Dec. 29, 2011, 04:32 PM
No, you are not.

Nor are you allowed to have ear plugs or covers in dressage, although ear nets are legal for jumping.

GotSpots
Dec. 29, 2011, 04:34 PM
Hi, I'd like to start a trainwreck on the eventing forum. Please insert two posts with the exact language of the rules, three comments about the purpose of the rules against feeding your horses performance enhancing substances, four exacerbated outbursts about why no "true eventer" should ever even want to use such substances, and five responses arguing that they may have some merit in some situations. Finish off with at least one suggestion that said "calmers" be applied to the participating posters.

I'll be sitting back with a glass of wine looking at the pile of tack I'm not cleaning.

deltawave
Dec. 29, 2011, 04:38 PM
FEI rules are different than USEF rules. When in doubt, please contact the relevant governing body and not a bulletin board aboutu the substance(s) in question. :) You will get a straight answer if you ask the right person.

Or save your money for entry fees and schooling. Calming supplements are a big hoax anyway. :p

Auto Be A Storm
Dec. 29, 2011, 05:14 PM
I didn't think they were allowed, to me it just seems like a cheat. But a friend of mine was asking about it today and I thought is wasn't ok....I look at eventing the same way I do my racehorses. The "no no" rules are so similar!

JP60
Dec. 29, 2011, 05:24 PM
Or save your money for entry fees and schooling. Calming supplements are a big hoax anyway. :p

I'll bite at this one, because I hear/read this from time to time about <fill in the blank> supplement or herb. It states the negative (its a hoax) without laying a foundation to base it on. I'll consider that perhaps there is no scientific report that states, given w amount of x, horse y showed z percentage of calmer attitude (not sure how something like this could be measured).

From an anecdotal view, there are may reviews of various products, some that get consistent "My horse is better on this then before), some that state "waste of money" so the general feeling is the "something" is happening in certain conditions. Perhaps the "its a hoax" is perpetrated by vets who want solid proof (and don't get a cut of the supplement action), perhaps it viral advertising from competing manufacturers, but just as we don't want to say there is a miracle cure for anxiety, we should not be so quick to say "it don't work". We own horses, we already are thinking outside the box. :)

I'm typically tight with money (cause I don't have much) and will be skeptical of "claims" so I try to do research the best I can, but when I got an anxious horse, and I find a product that states, "will help induce calm by balancing mineral levels that may be lacking"; its worth a try. When I see it work...is it the material, is it that giving gave confidence to the rider thus the horse calmed, both? What does it matter if something changed for the better. Placebo's have done wonders for ages, so even if this was a placebo reaction translated to the horse, it works for the end result.

My trainer tells me you get a calmer horse by becoming a calmer rider, and riding often, and going to different places, and having a good seat, and being confident, and doing what it takes to exude confidence and balance (think like a horse). That's all well and good, but as in humans, we need at times chemicals/herbs to help that process along. Until you can prove the negative, I will tend to believe that there are products that can produce the result stated. it takes effort to research, it takes time for measuring change, and it takes money which is up to the individual. I don't buy the blanket "its a hoax".

If there is something, like cannibus, I could give a horse to stop being so intense so they can "learn" to relax? I'd consider it if it did no harm. Instead, I use vitamins, supplement, a good trainer, and a shot before going on course to create that sense of calm needed to enjoy my ride.

flutie1
Dec. 29, 2011, 05:57 PM
Regardless of whether or not a substance "tests," the intent of using a "calmer," to alter performance, is illegal.

S A McKee
Dec. 29, 2011, 06:15 PM
Are you allowed to have your horse on Quietex, Smart Calm Ultra or any of those calmers at a reconized horse trial???? I believe I read in the USEF drug manual that you weren't allowed to have them on calmers, but I just want to double check that i read that correctly!!!!

Quietex contains Valerian. Not USEF legal.
Same is true for Relax.
Smart Calm is mostly magnesium which at present is legal.
Dex and robaxin are legal in restricted doses ( and not for the purpose of calming)

Of course, you can wing it and if you don't get tested then no problem. But if you DO get tested and the horse has had an illegal med you'll be doing time. Vacation from showing time that is and your pocketbook may take a good hit too.

Always call USEF if you aren't sure about a medication, supplement or whatever. Saves a lot of trouble later on.

subk
Dec. 29, 2011, 06:21 PM
Regardless of whether or not a substance "tests," the intent of using a "calmer," to alter performance, is illegal.
The key word being "intent."

LookmaNohands
Dec. 29, 2011, 06:22 PM
Your best bet is more training.

Which IS legal.
:)

ACMEeventing
Dec. 29, 2011, 08:02 PM
Hi, I'd like to start a trainwreck on the eventing forum. Please insert two posts with the exact language of the rules, three comments about the purpose of the rules against feeding your horses performance enhancing substances, four exacerbated outbursts about why no "true eventer" should ever even want to use such substances, and five responses arguing that they may have some merit in some situations. Finish off with at least one suggestion that said "calmers" be applied to the participating posters.

I'll be sitting back with a glass of wine looking at the pile of tack I'm not cleaning.

:lol::lol::lol:

deltawave
Dec. 29, 2011, 08:38 PM
I'll consider that perhaps there is no scientific report that states, given w amount of x, horse y showed z percentage of calmer attitude (not sure how something like this could be measured).

That sums it up nicely. Absent evidence of efficacy AND safety, I wouldn't waste my money on any such product. Viral advertising doesn't begin to describe the supplement/nutraceutical juggernaut. :no:

Even COTH isn't immune, posting "letters to the editor" that are nothing more than (badly) veiled advertisements for the product du jour. :dead:

But if someone believes they work, perhaps that is all that is needed to have that person ride in a more relaxed and confident manner. I'd say that's far more likely than some of the ridiculous claims these products make. :lol:

reay6790
Dec. 29, 2011, 08:58 PM
The only drugs I have found that are effective are depo in one horse and dex the night before the show in another horse. unfortunately, dex makes my horse sick so he is probably the one out of a few hunters at any given show that aren't medicated. the hunter who used to take depo now does eventing so no need :)

yeah, using stuff to calm is illegal. eventers seem to take it more seriously that h/j world. if our horses were ever tested, they always come up negative. we never over-drug or would do anything that would test illegally nor do we use anything over the recommended therapeutic doses.

i don't know why people always ask these questions :/ i'm just being honest about the practices in the h/j world. not saying it is the right thing or wrong. honestly if a horse needs to be drugged before he shows, a 30 min lunge, and a hack before he schools and goes in the ring...he probably shouldn't be doing what he does. that is probably why hunters break down so quickly.

i really haven't found a calming "supplement" that works. my horse gets chelated magnesium sometimes...but I really don't notice enough of a difference to say it is a miracle supplement. sorry :/

Janet
Dec. 29, 2011, 09:40 PM
The key word being "intent."
I beg to differ. The rules say NOTHING about "intent".

Janet
Dec. 29, 2011, 09:50 PM
In order to determine if a "calmer" is illegal, check the list of ingredients, and compare it with the list of forbidden substances in the Drugs and Medication Guidelines
http://www.usef.org/documents/drugsMeds/DrugsMedsGuidelines2012.pdf

They are only "samples" so it is possible that a substance not on the list might be forbidden. But checking the list is a good place to start.



Are you allowed to have your horse on Quietex, Smart Calm Ultra or any of those calmers at a reconized horse trial???? I believe I read in the USEF drug manual that you weren't allowed to have them on calmers, but I just want to double check that i read that correctly!!!!

Mags
Dec. 30, 2011, 09:14 AM
I'll be sitting back with a glass of wine looking at the pile of tack I'm not cleaning.

Hay get to cleaning. I got my pile of tack done. It had only been sitting around for 3 months, I sure wish I could find that nice bridle bag I got to store every thing in:lol: Nice and big holds three bridles with a pocket on the front:yes:

JP60
Dec. 30, 2011, 10:32 AM
That sums it up nicely. Absent evidence of efficacy AND safety, I wouldn't waste my money on any such product. Viral advertising doesn't begin to describe the supplement/nutraceutical juggernaut. :no:

I just found this article while "working" at the office. Horses sought for Louisiana osteoarthritis study (http://www.horsetalk.co.nz/news/2011/12/166.shtml). R&D is very expensive, I appreciate that so to read that a study is being funded to look into herbs :eek: to manage a problem is pretty significant. They may find nothing, but at least they're looking at options other then prescription drugs.

I looked through some of your past postings about horse care and without a doubt you provide great advice (some I've been able to use). I just feel that between extremes is a workable option for those dealing with horse problems. Case in point, I have been leery about using pop-rocks (blue pops) as a substitute for ulcer-guard for the very comment you make. I read that the product is not consistent in quality and if not providing minimal effect could do more harm. Yet UG can be a major budget issue, so I read, research, balance extremes and figure the next time I need that type of care, I'll go with the advice you provided in another post.

I know this is off topic from the OP, and I agree that when people make "outrageous" claims it typically is too good to be true (Oh for a cure for lower ring bone on my mare...wait...'Try Ring-bone-Away, in two days your horse will jump like Courageous Comet'...yeah...right). yet when I read a consistent set of comments and research tells me that the products themselves are not harmful (not talking illegal here), then it may cost me a bit to test, but if it works then both horse and rider gain.

Anyway, I get your point and stay away from the extreme, but feel better providing my horses with vitamins to supplement the feed they get. I try to stay away from pain killers unless really needed, because I don't want to mask when my horse may begin to feel off. I am learning to listen to them at all levels.

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2011, 11:07 AM
I get your point and stay away from the extreme, but feel better providing my horses with vitamins to supplement the feed they get.

I'm not much into supplements in general, but don't believe I've ever come down too harshly on simple vitamins and minerals. :confused: I use one on my horses.

However, I don't consider herbal remedies in the same category, as a good number of these products have definite, legitimate drug effects and that means definite, legitimate RISKS to go along with the potential benefits.

When I hear comments (general reference here, not directed at anyone) like "Why not? It can't hurt." I cringe. I see reminders nearly every month, if not more often, of how herbal products can cause very, very definite harm.

I (try to) draw a big distinction between these products and general vitamin "supplements". Sorry if that isn't more clear.

JP60
Dec. 30, 2011, 11:25 AM
I (try to) draw a big distinction between these products and general vitamin "supplements". Sorry if that isn't more clear.
Actually, I get that :)

You sound like my trainer when she was training me about horse care (still wet behind the ears really). "Err on the side of caution", "When in doubt, ask the vet", "There's no miracle cure", and my favorite "Oh that, its just a bite, horses will be horses" stated after I flipped out seeing a !Massive gash! (really a small bite) on my delicate flower :lol: Roll the clock forward 4 years and now I'm the one going, "calm down, its just a scratch" after my SO worries herself to death over her pony.

As always, thank you for your thoughts, they add to my growing pile of knowledge.

flutie1
Dec. 30, 2011, 11:30 AM
I beg to differ. The rules say NOTHING about "intent".

Intent to alter performance. Does that make you happier Janet?

wendy
Dec. 30, 2011, 12:12 PM
Calming supplements are a big hoax anyway.

you neglect the all-important placebo effect: if the rider thinks the horse is going to be calmer, hey presto! often the horse IS calmer.

However, valerian is a very potent herbal sedative- I hope you don't plan to take your horse round x-c after giving him some valerian. Most of the calming supplements are just B-vitamins or magnesium or some such harmless substance, but not ones that contain valerian. Use sparingly and with caution.

Janet
Dec. 30, 2011, 12:33 PM
Intent to alter performance. Does that make you happier Janet?

ok, show me where the rules say anything about "intent to alter performance"?

I find GR410

...a forbidden
substance is:
a. Any stimulant, depressant, tranquilizer, local anesthetic, psychotro
pic (mood and/or behavior altering) substance, or drug which might
affect the performance of a horse and/or pony (stimulants and/or
depressants are defined as substances which stimulate or depress
the cardiovascular, respiratory or central nervous systems), or any
metabolite and/or analogue of any such substance or drug, except as
expressly permitted by this rule.
then, b, c, ...

Nothing about "intent"

In particular, as an example that is often cited, if you give a tranquilzer with the INTENT of floating teeth, or pulling manes, or clipping ears, without triggering a tantrum, you still can't compete until the drugs clear the system.

It doesn't matter that you "DIDN'T INTEND to alter performance" in the ring. It is still banned.

NCRider
Dec. 30, 2011, 01:03 PM
I think you guys are talking about "Intent" in two different contexts.
My understanding of the rules in the h/j world has always been that (1) there are prohibited substances that are per se forbidden, regardless of intent (Intent doesn't matter) and (2) giving your horse anything at all, regardless of whether it is on the list or will test, with the INTENT to calm for a show, is against the rules (Intent does matter).

Maybe that's wrong though?

#2 seems to be commonly violated in the H/J world where a lot of people only pay attention to what will test.

Halt Near X
Dec. 30, 2011, 01:08 PM
When I see it work...is it the material, is it that giving gave confidence to the rider thus the horse calmed, both? What does it matter if something changed for the better. Placebo's have done wonders for ages, so even if this was a placebo reaction translated to the horse, it works for the end result.

Yes, but -- horse is nervous at shows and is given a magnesium-based calming supplement. Horse gets better.

That's great for the show, but what next?

If you assume it was the placebo effect and the horse actually had a magnesium deficiency that the supplement helped temporarily, you may miss (or delay) fixing an underlying nutritional issue.

If you assume it was a magnesium deficiency but it was actually the placebo effect, you may end up spending $$$ on an unneeded supplement while not addressing rider confidence.

You can easily end up addressing the wrong underlying condition and delaying the ability to resolve the issues entirely.

And before I get jumped on, I don't really believe in calming supplements. I do believe in lots and lots of schooling shows and lots and lots of showing HC if necessary.

mugsgame
Dec. 30, 2011, 01:16 PM
I am surprised by the tone of this post because in the UK they are widely available and used - FEI legal as well.

I know lots of 3* and 4* horses who are heavily dosed with magnesium calmers in order to try and get a calm dressage test.

Whether they work is of course down to personal opinion but I have used one with success on a Prelim horse who was spooky. It was the difference between getting a 28 and a 38.

I have also used a calmer with tryptophen very successfully for shoeing a horse who was very stressed about it. This is BE legal though I believe BE is falling into line with FEI so I will need to check it again.

I would say I am sceptical about them so I always check the ingredients and look for certain things. I tend to use them when I have run out of tools in the box and its better than using an equine communicator!!

reay6790
Dec. 30, 2011, 01:21 PM
you neglect the all-important placebo effect: if the rider thinks the horse is going to be calmer, hey presto! often the horse IS calmer.

However, valerian is a very potent herbal sedative- I hope you don't plan to take your horse round x-c after giving him some valerian. Most of the calming supplements are just B-vitamins or magnesium or some such harmless substance, but not ones that contain valerian. Use sparingly and with caution.

valerian is on the prohibited list last time i checked :)

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2011, 01:24 PM
I am surprised by the tone of this post because in the UK they are widely available and used - FEI legal as well.


FEI rules do not vary by country. :)


heavily dosed with magnesium calmers in order to try and get a calm dressage test.


IV Magnesium is (ab)used as a muscle relaxant in hunterland (with disastrous effects in some cases) but generally is 99% hype and no substance when used orally unless one desires a laxative. :lol: Still, people believe all manner of miraculous claims about this humble mineral. Even 3* and 4* riders. :lol: The placebo effect at work: if one believes their horse is or will be calm, one rides them as if they were.

S A McKee
Dec. 30, 2011, 01:36 PM
I think you guys are talking about "Intent" in two different contexts.
My understanding of the rules in the h/j world has always been that (1) there are prohibited substances that are per se forbidden, regardless of intent (Intent doesn't matter) and (2) giving your horse anything at all, regardless of whether it is on the list or will test, with the INTENT to calm for a show, is against the rules (Intent does matter).

Maybe that's wrong though?

#2 seems to be commonly violated in the H/J world where a lot of people only pay attention to what will test.

hmm...
The Drug rules are in the General Rules Section. They apply to all unless the discipline has a special set of circumstances.
No magic happens because you are showing H/J.
What Janet quoted is from the General Rules section.

Althiugh you are correct, seems like a lot of H/J are only concerned about what tests.

In this thread an earlier poster mentioned using robaxin and dex on her show horses. That stuff should only be used for a therapeutic purpose, not as a tranq but many give that junk anyway without any concern for possible harm to the horse. Pretty much because 'everybody else does it' so it must be the right thing to do.

mugsgame
Dec. 30, 2011, 01:52 PM
Oh well I guess a fool and his money are soon parted!

I appreciate the placebo effect but I think there are scientific experiments which show that the placebo effect is very powerful?

I also believe the scientists at CERN have proven that you can have scientific evidence without knowing what the mechanism is that caused it?

Finally I will just finish with that there are plenty of other things out there that scientific evidence is spurious about (joint supplements, Mojo holograms and I will include religion) but for some people they might just work.

This has got slightly deeper than I planned and normally I would call myself a sceptic about most things but I think calmers can work for some horses.

flutie1
Dec. 30, 2011, 02:53 PM
ok, show me where the rules say anything about "intent to alter performance"?

I find GR410

then, b, c, ...

Nothing about "intent"

In particular, as an example that is often cited, if you give a tranquilzer with the INTENT of floating teeth, or pulling manes, or clipping ears, without triggering a tantrum, you still can't compete until the drugs clear the system.

It doesn't matter that you "DIDN'T INTEND to alter performance" in the ring. It is still banned.

Obviously, I didn't have the rule book in front of me when I took on the Rules Queen. Here is my logic even though obviously this will be argued!

One is giving calmer to promote relaxation in a horse. Agreed? The calmer is not being given to improve the hooves or repel flies. Agreed? Therefore, and excuse the word, the INTENT of the person giving the stuff is to promote a quieter ride. Agreed? Making a ride quieter is potentially altering a performance. Agreed? Therefore, again, following this logic, in my mind giving the calmer is illegal. Maybe I'm naive, but this is my interpretation.

So Janet, go ahead and use all that crap you want. I hope your horse is relaxed and worthy of a couple of 10's. Even if it doesn't "test," to me you are still breaking the rules.

Carry on .........

barnmaven
Dec. 30, 2011, 04:46 PM
Wouldn't be nice is retailers would note in their info, that a specific substance in their product is not legal for competition?

NCRider
Dec. 30, 2011, 04:51 PM
But Barnmaven, then people wouldn't be able to stick their heads in the sand and pretend they thought it was legal and no one would buy the product.

Fillabeana
Dec. 30, 2011, 05:20 PM
One is giving calmer to promote relaxation in a horse. Agreed? The calmer is not being given to improve the hooves or repel flies. Agreed? Therefore, and excuse the word, the INTENT of the person giving the stuff is to promote a quieter ride. Agreed? Making a ride quieter is potentially altering a performance. Agreed? Therefore, again, following this logic, in my mind giving the calmer is illegal. Maybe I'm naive, but this is my interpretation.

Following this logic, I could get in trouble for taking my horse to a schooling show, since my intent would be to promote a quieter ride at the rated show.

JackieBlue
Dec. 30, 2011, 05:21 PM
Anybody familiar with Carolina Gold? Seems like the latest and greatest in the HS world and doesn't test. The creator swears that it's only amino acids, but it's injectable and must be given just before performing and lasts only a short while. :confused:

NCRider
Dec. 30, 2011, 05:24 PM
Fillabena, your analogy would only work if a schooling show was a substance. The drug rules don't govern training.

Auto Be A Storm
Dec. 30, 2011, 06:34 PM
I am pretty sure that if the theory is it might be a placebo effect, then save the money on the calmers and just have a glass of wine before we ride!!!! It would be 5 o clock somewhere in the world right??? :) :) :)

flutie1
Dec. 30, 2011, 06:38 PM
Following this logic, I could get in trouble for taking my horse to a schooling show, since my intent would be to promote a quieter ride at the rated show.

Seriously? That's just silly.

ACMEeventing
Dec. 30, 2011, 07:43 PM
Following this logic, I could get in trouble for taking my horse to a schooling show, since my intent would be to promote a quieter ride at the rated show.

Wow. That is one big leap.

runnyjump
Dec. 30, 2011, 07:44 PM
Following this logic, I could get in trouble for taking my horse to a schooling show, since my intent would be to promote a quieter ride at the rated show.

REALLY? Do you "administer" a schooling show to your horse, or does he just ingest it?

Let's not get ridiculous here!

Janet
Dec. 30, 2011, 09:51 PM
One is giving calmer to promote relaxation in a horse. Agreed?
If the "calmer" contains a substance which REALLY "might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony", then it is illegal, whether you are giving it to calm the horse or giving it to "improve the hooves".

Conversely, if you are giving the horse something which can NOT "affect the performance of a horse and/or pony" (say holy water) then it is not illegal, even if you BELIEVE it will calm the horse.


The calmer is not being given to improve the hooves or repel flies. Agreed?
If the stuff you are giving "might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony", the fact that you are giving it to "improve the hooves or repel flies" won't make it legal.


Therefore, and excuse the word, the INTENT of the person giving the stuff is to promote a quieter ride. Agreed?

Doesn't matter if it is the intent or not. If "the stuff" "might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony", it is illegal.

If "the stuff" can't "affect the performance of a horse and/or pony", it is legal, regardless of the intent of the person giving it.


Making a ride quieter is potentially altering a performance. Agreed?
Absolutely. That is why substances that "might affect the performance of a horse and/or pony" are illegal.


Therefore, again, following this logic, in my mind giving the calmer is illegal. Maybe I'm naive, but this is my interpretation.

But that is not the logic of the rules.


So Janet, go ahead and use all that crap you want. I hope your horse is relaxed and worthy of a couple of 10's. Even if it doesn't "test," to me you are still breaking the rules.

Huh? I don't use any "calmers".

If they work they are illegal (whether or not they "test").

If they are legal they don't work - by definition.


But don't take my word for it. The D&M group is glad to answer your inquiries.

Phone 800.633.2472
Fax 614.299.7706
Email: medequestrian@aol.com

Janet
Dec. 30, 2011, 09:52 PM
Seriously? That's just silly.
EXACTLY!!

deltawave
Dec. 30, 2011, 10:14 PM
Conversely, if you are giving the horse something which can NOT "affect the performance of a horse and/or pony" (say holy water) then it is not illegal

How would, then, Regumate or Depo-Provera fit into this calculus? It very, very definitely is felt to affect the behavior of horses, and thereby their performance, and is legal. What about omeprazole? Horses with ulcers are notoriously grouchy and difficult at times. Feeling better means better behavior--can that not improve performance? How about papaya or aloe vera juice used to treat ulcers? Legal or illegal? Must be declared, or no?

Ultimately these arguments always come down to this quibbling point. The rule is very badly composed and leaves this whole topic in the realm of the squishy and nebulous.

scubed
Feb. 15, 2012, 01:08 PM
there is human research showing that Vitamin B is useful in humans for stress/anxiety reduction (and memory improvement). I do have my ADD boy on a high level Vit B supp (though who knows if it really works).

SayAngel
Feb. 15, 2012, 03:13 PM
I was recently at a presentation about USEF drug rules and he basically said what Janet said, "If they work, they are illegal."

california rider
Feb. 15, 2012, 03:24 PM
"Hilary
Grand Prix

Join Date: Nov. 16, 2000
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 4,259

No, you are not.

Nor are you allowed to have ear plugs or covers in dressage, although ear nets are legal for jumping."


You can show in ear nets for usdf dressage shows.

JP60
Feb. 15, 2012, 03:55 PM
I was recently at a presentation about USEF drug rules and he basically said what Janet said, "If they work, they are illegal."
What an example of chaos...

Supplements...they don't work, but we're going to ban them if they work. But if they work, then that disproves people's opinion that they don't work, because they now become recognized as illegal. Both and?

What determines the phrase "It works!". How deep do we go on "effects performance". My goodness, hock injections, legend, stem cell injections, et al . What separates "I want my horse to feel good" from "altering performance". Should our horse not feel good in general? If they feel good, do they not perform better?

In theory...my horse appears calmer, more attentive due to the giving of Smartpak Calm. I enjoy my horse this way for it makes for more enjoyable rides, teaches him to not be as "anxious" at the unknown which adds to a safer experience....in theory. The rider feels better, the horse seems to be better...in theory. My official line is that supplements don't work, smartpak is a waste of money, but hey its my money so nothing illegal here, because "it does not work".

I accept that there is a list of substances that are illegal to use and I respect its intent, the welfare of the horse. I find a statement of "if it works then its illegal" to be a crock. If it is not on a list, then it is legal. If it works and is not on a list, then it is legal until proven illegal by competent people using scientific methods. Delta's comment is wonderful...

"Ultimately these arguments always come down to this quibbling point. The rule is very badly composed and leaves this whole topic in the realm of the squishy and nebulous."

The current rule can be summed as "All substances are bad, but for these exceptions"...how do you enforce that. Why not instead have the rule say "these specific substances are banned (give list). All other substances are not till proven otherwise by the governing body".

On a lighter note I think I'd name my next horse "In Theory". I can hear it now..."now entering ring one, rider 134 on 'In theory'".:)

Janet
Feb. 15, 2012, 04:00 PM
"Hilary
Grand Prix

Join Date: Nov. 16, 2000
Location: Concord, NH
Posts: 4,259

No, you are not.

Nor are you allowed to have ear plugs or covers in dressage, although ear nets are legal for jumping."


You can show in ear nets for usdf dressage shows.
Not exactly.

The ear net rule for STRAIGHT (USDF) Dressage is

Fly
hoods (ear covers) will only be permitted in order to protect horses from insects. The fly hoods
should be discreet and should not cover the horse’s eyes, and will only be permitted in extreme
cases at the discretion of the presiding judge(s). Permission must be granted prior to the class
and applies to all competitors in the class.
Very similar to the rule for Eventing Dressage


earmuffs, earplugs, hoods, fly shields, nose covers and seat
covers are, under penalty of elimination, strictly forbidden. However, under exceptional circumstances,
fly shields may be permitted by the Ground Jury.

In both cases, you can't use them unless the Presiding Judge/Ground Jury has declared an "extreme case" / "exceptional circumstance"

netg
Feb. 15, 2012, 06:15 PM
Not exactly.

The ear net rule for STRAIGHT (USDF) Dressage is

Very similar to the rule for Eventing Dressage



In both cases, you can't use them unless the Presiding Judge/Ground Jury has declared an "extreme case" / "exceptional circumstance"

Sorry the boards decided to delete your useful items in quotation marks.

Anyway, I find the rule interesting, as it seems as if just about any time someone wants to use them they are allowed now! I suppose "exceptional" allows a lot of leeway.

eventingismylife
Feb. 16, 2012, 01:26 AM
It's illegal but they will not test of your horse gets drug tested. Make sure none of the ingredients are on the forbidden list in those supplements. Smart calm ultra might have an illegal ingredient in it but I can't remember.

I'm from hunterland and we use calmers frequently. We also use dexamethasone and robaxin at shows.

I've used Dynamite Easy-Boy before with luck. Chelated magnesium is more easily absorbed by the body.

I have never used Easy-Boy at a show, but it is great stuff. I have also used it for muscle strains.

california rider
Feb. 16, 2012, 10:33 AM
Not exactly.

In both cases, you can't use them unless the Presiding Judge/Ground Jury has declared an "extreme case" / "exceptional circumstance"




I would not call them picky. At dressage shows all over you will find folks riding with the ear bonnets (empty of course because "stuffing is not on") and I do not see lots of people turned away for it. Most dressage people I talk to say things like Buffy does not like wind in his ears or this horse is sensitive. Point being it is not as hard to use ear bonnets as one might think.

__________________

Janet
Feb. 16, 2012, 11:28 AM
Maybe it is regional, with some areas having the permission granted "almost automatically", and other areas being more cautious about declaring "extremecases".

S A McKee
Feb. 22, 2012, 05:18 PM
As of today Carolina Gold is a prohibited substance.

From USEF:

"While initially not considered a forbidden substance, the use of GABA as a "calming supplement" does violate the spirit and intent of the Equine Drugs and Medications Rule. During recent research and administration trials involving "Carolina Gold," many adverse reactions were documented. The nature of these reactions has prompted immediate action from the USEF Equine Drugs and Medications Program.

Effective immediately, "Carolina Gold" or any other product containing GABA is considered a forbidden substance under USEF rules. Further, because there are no recognized medical uses for this substance, the use of a Medication Report Form to report its administration is not applicable.

The detection of GABA is being actively pursued by the USEF Equine Drugs and Medications Program and will be implemented without delay or notice. No further announcements will be forthcoming regarding the use of “Carolina Gold” or GABA. All positive findings will be forwarded to the USEF Hearing Committee. Trainers and veterinarians involved in the sale or use of this substance may be subject to fines and/or suspensions. "

So yes Janet, the intent does matter. See paragraph one. Bolded for emphasis.
LMAO

RAyers
Feb. 22, 2012, 05:36 PM
What an example of chaos...

Supplements...they don't work, but we're going to ban them if they work. But if they work, then that disproves people's opinion that they don't work, because they now become recognized as illegal. Both and?



No, not chaos. Many supplements create the appearance of effect without actually affecting the disease state or condition to which its claims are base. At the same time, many supplements have ingredients that have a secondary effect that again has no direct influence on the actual condition.

Hence, we can say that supplements show NO effect but they can be illegal (e.g. Carolina Gold).

Reed

Couture TB
Feb. 22, 2012, 06:56 PM
So how would Dex be used for a calming use? We always used it with horses with heaves, or for inflamation, etc. Never heard of it being used for calming.

vicarious
Feb. 22, 2012, 07:22 PM
So how would Dex be used for a calming use? We always used it with horses with heaves, or for inflamation, etc. Never heard of it being used for calming.

I've a great idea!! You take human dose, and tell us all how "up and at 'em" and energetic you feel.

I'll leave its pharmacological action to those who can better describe it.;)

riderboy
Feb. 22, 2012, 08:10 PM
The rule is very badly composed and leaves this whole topic in the realm of the squishy and nebulous.
Which is adjacent to the Kingdom of the tawdry and unseemly. Or were Squishy and Nebulous the guys on Laverne and Shirley? :D

ideayoda
Feb. 22, 2012, 08:17 PM
There are many 'herbal remedies' in life which are VERY illegal. The one in some of the stuff list here which has valerian included is because it can calm because it is diuretic. Not something good for any horse, least of all eventing. Of course you could do what some disciplines do that won't test and bleed the horse to calm it and get the same effect. (disgusting) If a horse changes its behavior overnight, thats a pretty safe bet as to what was used.

But what makes for a calm horse: slow/progressive/methodical training!! If the horse is ramping up, ask WHY.

Couture TB
Feb. 23, 2012, 09:58 AM
I've a great idea!! You take human dose, and tell us all how "up and at 'em" and energetic you feel.

I'll leave its pharmacological action to those who can better describe it.;)

Well that was an interesting answere. I was just curious. I have never had to use calmers on a horse, I just suit the right horse with the right rider and etc. But since I had never heard it as having a calming side effect I was just curious

And I will pass on using it on myself, I have enough health issues that your suggestion would probably kill me.

quietann
Feb. 23, 2012, 10:31 AM
You can show in ear nets for usdf dressage shows.

... at the judge's discretion.

7. ... Fly hoods (ear covers) will only be permitted in order to protect horses from insects. The fly hoods should be discreet and should not cover the horse’s eyes, and will only be permitted in extreme cases at the discretion of the presiding judge(s). Permission must be granted prior to the class and applies to all competitors in the class.</EM>

...

8. The above restrictions (1-7) apply to warm-up and other training areas, however, running martingales (only with snaffle rein of plain snaffle bridle), boots, bandages (without magnets) and ear muffs are permitted. (Exception: running martingales and ear muffs are not permitted for horses entered in USEF High Performance qualifying and selection trials, and observation classes). However, noise cancelling ear muffs are permitted at prize-giving ceremonies for horses competing at any level, including High Performance classes. Fly hoods (ear covers) that do not cover the horse’s eyes are permitted in warm-up and other training areas and cannot be used for masking noise cancelling earplugs.

DR121, page DR24. Please note this is for dressage, not eventing dressage.

For eventing dressage:

e. Martingales, bit guards, any kind of gadgets (such as bearing, side, running or balancing reins, etc.), reins with any loops or hand attachments, any kind of boots or leg bandages and any form of blinkers, including earmuffs, earplugs, hoods, fly shields, nose covers and seat covers are, under penalty of elimination, strictly forbidden. However, under exceptional circumstances, fly shields may be permitted by the Ground Jury.

EV115, Rule 2 section e, page EV12

I am pretty sure the rules get bent now and again, though...

Rabbitman9
Feb. 23, 2012, 11:34 AM
"Carolina Gold"...just banned by USEF yesterday and sold on Juan Gamboa's web site. Any experience with this not so secret stuff?
It looks like the USEF drug dudes saw some strange reactions to it's use.