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View Full Version : Paul Valliere hired to judge Equitation Final



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oxerdown
Feb. 25, 2004, 08:13 PM
I recently heard that Paul Valliere (sp?) has been hired to judge some sort of equitation finals at Palm Beach. The finals is apparently non-USEF recognized. Does anyone know about this? If this is true what kind of message does it send to our junior equitation riders?

oxerdown
Feb. 25, 2004, 08:13 PM
I recently heard that Paul Valliere (sp?) has been hired to judge some sort of equitation finals at Palm Beach. The finals is apparently non-USEF recognized. Does anyone know about this? If this is true what kind of message does it send to our junior equitation riders?

Uberraschung
Feb. 25, 2004, 08:18 PM
It's not a junior eq class...it's for pros.

ALF
Feb. 25, 2004, 08:25 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Uberraschung:
It's not a junior eq class...it's for pros.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually that's not quite right. The class is for anyone who has represented their country, which obviously would include a whole bunch of amateurs like Steinkraus.

As a practical matter, I doubt many of them will actually compete, since the class is not on a weekend.

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 25, 2004, 08:37 PM
If this is indeed confirmed, can someone post the organization and contact info for whomever is putting this event on and hiring him? And if it's any kind of charity event, it would be helpful to have info on which charities are the recipients and any sponsors, too.

Court@HJ-OH
Feb. 25, 2004, 08:44 PM
It is probably the Equus Medal that he coached last year. The one that Andre Dignelli won.

JEP
Feb. 25, 2004, 09:15 PM
Yes-see the "baddies" thread for the official quote!

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 04:41 AM
Here's the official press release, copied from the other thread (thanks Heelsdown!).

"The $25,000 Equus Medal is once again returning to the Winter Equestrian Festival on Monday, March 8th. Unlike the previous class, it is now open to all riders (from any country) who have represented their country in a Nations’ Cup. The judging panel for this year’s event will be Norman Dello Joio, Paul Valliere and Ellen Raidt Lordy. If you are interested in competing or want some information on the event, contact Mason Phelps at the Special Events office 561 753-3389."

So now we have a convicted child molester as announcer and a convicted horse killer as a judge. Boy, we can all be SO PROUD to be a part of this discipline. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

ssaymssik
Feb. 26, 2004, 04:52 AM
Pssst, WA, PV didn't do the actual killing of the animals - please keep to the facts.

Stupid people bug me.
STOP!!! Where's that sense of humor???

Lord Helpus
Feb. 26, 2004, 04:54 AM
OK, so where do we send our emails to comment on this? Or should we flood Mason Phelps' answering machine?

Does the horse show office have an email? Obviously WEF is putting this class on. With copies to the muckety-mucks at the AHSA, too.

I know this is on a Monday, but perhaps what we need to do is to lobby for an emergency rule change saying "any days between back to back shows at the same location are also covered under AHSA rules".

Such a rule change would not be effective for this year, but it sends a message and would prevent such things in the future.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 04:58 AM
I was thinking along the same lines, LH. A rule change proposal that went something like - "suspended persons shall be prohibited from entering the show grounds at any time during the term of show management's lease of the facility"... You're a lawyer, would that work??

It would get around the "Monday defense" would it not?

Probably impossible to enforce, but at least it would put a rule in place to cover situations like this?

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

nails
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:00 AM
This is appalling-there are problems in all sports but to let a man who KILLED A HORSE judge others shows what little respect these people and the USEF have for our sport. The penalities are laughed at and ignored by the very people who handed down those penalities. It is sad that so much of our forums have to be dedicated to convicted horse killers, drugs, sex offenders etc. It is also sad that our children read these boards everyday and see the lack of respect that is demonstrated. How can anyone say (as has been said here) that drugs are ok, he really didn't mean it when it molested that child, brutal treatment of horses is ok as long as they win. Then when the children/teens acted out-we just can't believe their behavior.

Sorry this got so long but I have been reading all these posts (hundreds of them) and I just snapped!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

nails
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:04 AM
whatdoIknow-yes he did kill the horse-even if he did not "pull the triger" so to speak-he participated in the killing no matter what his official role was.

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:07 AM
Other ideas I kicked around last night (couldn't sleep):

Lobby the other 2 judges to refuse to participate?

All chip in for a full-page protest ad in COTH??

A cyber-petition to be presented to USEF and WEF management?

If we decide to do anything collectively, let's keep it ethical, legal & sane. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Other ideas, anyone??

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:18 AM
Please count me in if it's decided a full page protest ad is in order. Because I'm on the other side of the border my opinion won't count for much in a letter writing blitz but my dollars still count!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:24 AM
What about trying to get the newly-formed USEF Ethics Committee enrolled in some way?

Portia??

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

scrubs
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:31 AM
I called the number and stated that I just wanted to voice my dismay over the choice of PV judging this and was rudely told that "I will not have this conversation with you because management has determined that it is an acceptable situation" CLICK. I say start calling - I too will chip in for any ads or petitions. This is nuts.

scrubs
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:33 AM
Oh yeah - have we found out about any sposnors for this event yet - is this EQUUS magazine??? Perhaps an ad in there would be good.

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:33 AM
OMG!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

You didn't by any chance get the NAME of the person to whom you were speaking, did you? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

scrubs
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:43 AM
Didn't have enough time to - he hung up too quickly!!! - He's there now - give him a call!

Izabella
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:51 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by whatdoIknow:
Pssst, WA, PV didn't do the actual killing of the animals - please keep to the facts.

Stupid people bug me.
STOP!!! Where's that sense of humor???<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And that makes it ok???

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:52 AM
The more I think about it, scrubs, the more you may have a real good idea there about lobbying the SPONSORS. What does everyone else think??

Just snooped around, and here is a list of WEF sponsors for 2004 (confirm it here (http://www.stadiumjumping.com/sj/sponsor.cfm#specialThank).

But please note, these companies are NOT necessarily sponsors of the class in question. They are merely contributing to the show overall.

Diamond Level
Cosequin
Budweiser
Windsome Farms


Platinum Level
Bainbridge Properties
Bayer
Canadian National
Kilkenny/ICH
Nutrena/Western Hay
Outback Steakhouse
Palm Beach Post
Palm Beach Daily News
PDP Capital
Solaray
Zada Enterprises, L.L.C.



Gold Level
Acorn Hill Farm
Brookledge Horse Transportation
FedEx
First Savings Mortgage Corporation
Florida Coast Equipment
Hampton Inn
Illustrated Properties (Carol Sollack)
Nextel
Samsung
Sidelines
Tradewinds Farm
RV Sales of Broward



Silver Level
Adequan
Equestrian Properties
Gotham North



Bronze LevelAriat
Beval's Saddlery
Enterprise Car Rental
Fiji Water
Forum Newspaper
Oakwood Corporate Housing
Oster Professional Products Equine Division
Palm Beach County Sports Commission
Palm Beach County Business Development Board
Wild Horse Winery



SupportingCarolyn Ashley Interiors
Horsewatch
Lap Top City
Lazcar International
Micheal Angelo Salon/Spa
Nordstrom
Seminole Hard Rock Hotel and Casino
Starband Satellite
Summit Dynamics
Ultima Gym
Wellington Regional Medical Center

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

MHM
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:02 AM
OK, before anyone tries to discourage the sponsors from supporting horse shows, it might be better to contact the management that hired the person in question.

Sponsors are good. We like sponsors. Let's try to at least keep the sponsors we have. Please? Thank you.

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:10 AM
Time unfortunately (or fortunately) dulls the memory somewhat. It is often necessary to "remind" in graphic detail what the original act was. I don't mean here and now. I mean graphically spelled out to whomever sits on the management team of this show. Suffice it to say, I doubt very much this "team" would appreciate having that information made publically available.

MHM, I agree with your statement about sponsors and how needed they are. However, I can't believe for a moment ANY of those companies/people listed wish to have their name associated with such heinous acts.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I called the number and stated that I just wanted to voice my dismay over the choice of PV judging this and was rudely told that "I will not have this conversation with you because management has determined that it is an acceptable situation" CLICK. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hmmm, MHM, you don't think that's enough of a response??

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

arnika
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:14 AM
Well MHM, if you read the posts above it sounds like scrubs did "try to contact the management that hired the person in question" and was told that management "has determined that it is an acceptable situation". And then was rudely hung up on.

Says quite a bit about the management's attitude. I know that I for one will be contacting ALL the sponsors to let them know what kind of management group they are sponsoring.

MHM
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:17 AM
The sponsors who know nothing about horses would likely react by never going near another horse sport again. Is that a good thing? I don't think so.

The person who answered the phone will be well aware of the public reaction after enough phone calls. To my mind, that's more productive than calling the Palm Beach Post, among other sponsors.

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:39 AM
MHM, calm heads prevail! I agree with you but would go one step further and "suggest" precisely that to the management team. Your thoughts?

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

Duffy
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:39 AM
Makes me ill. *insert crying barf icon here*

"B***h in training"

MHM
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:43 AM
Also, to clarify, the phone number posted above is for Mason Phelps. Unless he himself hired the judges, he is not "the management" in question. He's just the person who has his phone number listed for ticket information and press purposes.

Quinn, that sounds like a much more productive strategy, IMO.

GotSpots
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:53 AM
I just spoke to someone I believe is Mr. Phelps at the above number. He told me that Wellington Equestrian Alliance is behind the class. He also said that they felt that "Mr. Valliere has made his amends" and that "he has been very active behind the scenes" and that "competitors and judges" don't feel he should be banned. He also said that because it wasn't a recognized day, that they could have anyone they wanted judging it.

Is that an admission that Valliere has not followed the terms of his suspension?

As a sport, we deserve better than this.

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:57 AM
I left a message for him. Be interesting to see if he calls me back. He is, I believe, the Special Events marketing guy, so I'm simply going to ask him for the official position.

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

MAD
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Electric Tape:

As a practical matter, I doubt many of them will actually compete, since the class is not on a weekend.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Last year, also held on a Monday, the turnout was huge. It is a free $25,000 event.

Do a search, it was well covered on these boards.

elizabeth
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:01 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GotSpots:
He also said that they felt that "Mr. Valliere has made his amends" and that "he has been very active behind the scenes" and that "competitors and judges" don't feel he should be banned.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ding, ding, ding, ding. I posted several days ago on another thread to essentially say that if the folks who spent their money in massive amounts at WEF objected, management would care. Obviously the folks who send down 18 wheelers full of horses to WEF do NOT care. So we could all post for YEARS on these threads about how repugnant some of these things are, but the reality is that it appears that the majority of the folks dropping large amounts of cash at WEF do not feel similarly. And until they do, things will remain the same, it seems to me.

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:01 AM
FYI.......I just a few moments ago called the number for Phelps Management.

A polite woman answered. I asked if she could confirm the three judges for the Equus Medal class. She did so. I said "I would like to state that I believer PV is an extraordinarily poor choice for a judge, may I ask who selected him?" She told me a committee did. I then asked who was on the committee. She has taken my name and number and says she will call me back with that info.

If/when she does, I will share it here.

FWIW, we are on a difficult line regarding the sponsors here. Most likely don't even know what classes are up, nor who any of these players are. And...we do need their money and support.

I suggest instead that we simply paper their offices and tie up their phone lines with protests. Also, be aware that if there is an enterprising reporter in the area - and two newspapers ARE on the sponsor list - this could blow up. Just my PR hat on for a moment there...

Uberraschung
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:01 AM
Well if you dont like it, then dont go show therehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

It's an unrecognized "fun and charity" class. There's no reason to get all in a tizzy over it, especially since it is outside USEF rules.

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:02 AM
What charity is the class in aid of?

arnika
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:05 AM
I'm not arguing that Wellington Equestrian Alliance and Mr. Phelps can have anyone(no matter how repugnant) judge an unrecognized class.

I'm just saying that as one of their customers I can comment on their judgement, or lack of, in this matter. I also feel free to make my opinions known to their sponsors as I am a frequent customer of many of them as well. Although that may change based on the response I get when I call and write them.

On Second Thought
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
What charity is the class in aid of?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The Give Paul a Gig Foundation.

suecoo
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:12 AM
This is disgusting!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

SueCoo & the Redhead (a/k/a "Atlanta")
Life without horses is possible, but pointless......

Sleepy
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:16 AM
It would seem to me that since management doesn't care and their clients don't care, then the sponsors are fair game.

''Computers are useless. They can only give you answers.''
- Pablo Picasso

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:19 AM
fyi.....I have this info as I wanted to write to both SJI and HITS (SJI to express my personal disapproval of KK; HITS to ask to confirm Jerry Farmer's employment and express outrage if it is indeed the case - or to alert them that it's rumored if it's not). Anyway....a few cell phone calls couldn't hurt.....
MR. EUGENE R. MISCHE
Member
1301 SIXTH AVENUE WEST
SUITE 406
BRADENTON, FL
34205
Day Phone: (941) 744-5465
Evening Phone: (941) 722-3491
Cell Phone: (914) 915-3445
FAX: (941) 744-0874
Email: erm1999@aol.com

KJoy
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
FWIW, we are on a difficult line regarding the sponsors here. Most likely don't even know what classes are up, nor who any of these players are. And...we do need their money and support.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why do we need their support for this particular class, which isn't even recognized? I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that I think it is more important to make sure our horses are safe and people are punished appropriately for hurting them, than it is to have sponsors.

yourcall
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:32 AM
HH, what do you mean the employment of Jerry Farmer at Hits?

Duffy
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:34 AM
They are not breaking any USEF rules by employing PV, but is more than distasteful to many of us. Unfortunately, those of us who feel this way are NOT down there, en masse. The people who support PV or don't care are the ones down there.

As MAD indicated in her post, there was a thread last year about this same class and PV's participation in the event. Obviously, there was not enough negative back-lash last year.

"B***h in training"

Lord Helpus
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:58 AM
I understand that the email for Gene Mische is no longer an active one... Hmmmmm...

The email for WEF is

Stadiumjumpingfl@hotmail.com (http://stadiumjumpingfl@hotmail.com)

I just emailed that address with my opinion of hiring Paul Valiere -- Perhaps we all should?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Do you know why they call it "PMS"? Because "Mad Cow Disease" was taken

ponygirl
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:59 AM
I have a really stupid question b/c I don't really know the whole story when it comes to PV. But if he was involved in the killing of horses, isn't he a lot like a certain B.Ward?

"Dogs have owners, cats have staff."

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:59 AM
On the sponsors:
100% agreed that we MUST clean up our house. My concern is that we use, if I can make a bad analogy, the least toxic products we can to clean off the mold. So...if we can SOMEHOW work with management and the existing equestrian organizations to show our OWN disgust with this, far better. IF we can't, then it should be war...but I always feel that's a last resort.

I guess I'd just like to hope that there is no outcry not because SO many people accept these things as no problem, but because they like so many of us just didn't know. I cannot believe that everyone who shows major rated hunter shows is happy to drug their horses, lunge them to death or be judged by convicts. But we need for those people, for everyone who wants our sport NOT to become tabloid fodder, to make their concerns known.

As to Jerry Farmer at HITS -- on other threads it was mentioned that he is lurking around, doing odd work until he could be reinstated and appear more publicly. I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS CURRENTLY TRUE. That's why I want to ASK if it is, and then state any concerns I personally have.

Mom
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:08 AM
If you don't like it, don't go. It's that simple. Don't get in a tizzy, don't go around alienating sponsors. Let it be. Stop throwing stones.

And before you all go mount your high horses, let me just say that I don't condone anything evil that may or may not have happened. I simply despise the condemnation of individuals by those without full first-hand knowledge. I also believe that those who feel that the individual here has made amends or is making amends in keeping with the punishment that was given him are entitled to their own opinions and to hire him if they so desire. You have no obligation to participate.

bitsy
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:12 AM
The way to go is through Management of the facility being used. In this case, since it is not a recognized class, but still being held at WEF and on the grounds, I think Stadium Jumping would have to be the one to contact. I'm totally opposed to contacting sponsors. Without them, horseshows will not have a lot of the extras that they do and it will only hurt the competitors in the long run and add to our show bills as well as a lot of these riders will end up not having sponsors for their GP horses. Stay calm and go about the right way. Again - it's a business like any other business and it has its flaws certainly, but they all do. If you act like you are a hot head going about it and crazy - people will view you as such. Look at what happend to Howard Dean after one speech !!!

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:13 AM
Bottom line - he's still under indefinite suspension by the NGB and has been hired as an official by show management of a rated show - albeit for a non-rated class.

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

stop4
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:18 AM
If we get rid of the sponsers then we are left with nothing to debate over because there won't even be shows! Bitching at the sponsors is pointless... its not like they all got together and said 'lets sponser a class with PV judging' Sponsors don't really have anything to do with this issue.

Keep in mind how hard it is to find good judges... if they had quality judges lining up to judge this class then they might have been more likely to pick someone else.

Can anyone clarify what exactly he actually did? Its hard for those of us who don't know to make a fair judgement call if we don't know what he did.

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:20 AM
MOM, must reply to you. First and foremost, this individual was found GUILTY. In a court of law. This is not heresay. This issue goes far beyond, "if you don't like it don't go." That sort of logic would apply if we were discussing dress codes or entry fees or choices of food vendors. We are not discussing these trivial matters. We are talking about a person who was convicted of having horse(s) killed. There comes a point in time when you must take a stand and DEMAND a different course of action. If we don't, then pray tell who will. This is like oil seeping under a door. If you don't stop it immediately it will continue to seep until the entire room is dirty.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

Janet
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:21 AM
As I remember it, he arranged for the killing of a horse to collect the insurance money.

[edited, as I originally had the wrong horse]

(moderators, feel free to edit if I have gone beyond what has appeared in print.)

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Uberraschung
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
As I remember it, he arranged for the killing of a horse, Charisma, to collect the insurance money. And it was rumored that the underlying motive was that the horse did not perform well for HIM, when it had performed well for the previous rider.

(moderators, feel free to edit if I have gone beyond what has appeared in print.)

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nope you are wrong. That was Lindemann(sp). PV was cited for arranging the killing for insurance money of Roseau Platiere.

Sunday
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:27 AM
If PV wasn't judging would you have even noticed the class was happening? If so would you have gone to the class?

Who are the other 2 judges, if they were mentioned before I missed them.

Ash
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mom:
I simply despise the condemnation of individuals by those without full first-hand knowledge. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Mom, I simply don't 'get' this stance. We know that Paul Valliere was suspended for life for his part (whatever it might have been) in a insurance scandal that involved the killing of horses. Good god, what more do I need to know? Are you saying because I didn't see it happen with my own eyes that I have no right to hold him accountable for his actions?

The USAE (for better or for worse) is the governing body of our sport and I trust their findings. Since they tell me he is guilty, then I have to believe them.

Or are you saying that you believe that he was suspended unfairly and we don't really 'know' what happened and he in fact is not guilty of what he was suspended for? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

swansong
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:31 AM
I don't think it would be a bad idea if the press in Fla got wind of this. I did see in Ocala on the first day when they just had warm ups and a judge Hi-Low class that one of the trainers on the suspension list was there in the ungate while someone rode her horses. A lot of people objected and were told that it wasn't an official show day and that is how she got away with it. I agree that the show grounds when being used for a USAE function should be offlimits to everyone suspended. The managers are really splitting hairs here.

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:31 AM
Well, the weather still isn't THAT warm here in MD, so I'll just enjoy any flames this may engender.....

Below is the text of an email I just sent to SJI, with copies to John Long and Donald O'Conner at USEF. It is not conciliatory, it is not in any way a "nice" email -- it's not intended to be. It is intended solely to state MY opinion, one to which I am entitled and one which I do feel strongly about. See, I AM looking into the future, and thinking "wow, maybe I could show at..." and then I learn this? It is not the image I believe we want for our sport, or at least not the image I want. Since I don't believe in not "walking my talk" I have sent this letter, and will gladly take any heat anyone wants to send.
--------
Dear Mr. Mische:

I am writing because I understand that not one but two situations have arisen where you and SJI have shown at best poor judgement, at worst a flagrant disregard for considerations of morality, ethics and PR in our sport.

I refer to the employment by your organizaton of Ken Kraus as an announcer, despite having knowledge of his conviction for lewd and lascivious behavior. Regardless of any skills or connections he might bring, it gives an incredibly stupid appearance of disregard for our Junior exhibitors to employ someone with this background. Mr. Kraus's recent legal troubles have brought his past to light, and the situation is frankly disgusting to those of us who were previously unaware of it. Many of us in this sport care not only about winning at fancy shows, we care that people outside of our little world understand and respect our efforts. They cannot do so if we display this kind of choice.

Did you think about how this could play in the papers when you hired him? If you did not, I'd suggest you review your public relations plans. If you did, and just thought it wouldn't bother anyone, shame on you, Mr. Mische.

But now I have learned that Mr. Kraus is not the only questionable hire you have made. Paul Valiere, a man convicted for taking part in the killing of horses for nothing more than greed, is being touted as a judge at your non-recognized Equus Medal class?! How can you possibly do this and look in the mirror?

Responses to phone calls have included statements that "management feels it's appropriate" and that Mr. Valiere has "made his amends" and been active "behind the scenes" - a situation which brings up a host of other ethical concerns and indicate you have no problem with him or his actions. Those aside, what message does it send to the people just getting into equestrian sports, or to those making zoning laws regarding boarding and training facilities etc -- to those people who aren't showing at WEF in other words -- to endorse and HIRE a man with this background?! Do you not think that people might feel that SJI is indicating that it doesn't really matter that Paul Valiere did some bad things because "that was in the past and besides he's still in business and his students win so what's the big deal?"

The big deal is that this man was CONVICTED in one of the most depressing, embarassing and horrible incidents in the show world. Mr. Mische, some things ought to be unpardonable, and participating in any way in the killing of horses for greed should be one of them. This isn't a very difficult thing for people outside the sheltered A-show world -- it's a very easy decision. Yet again, you disregard all sense and go so far as to embrace this man!

I can assure you that in my planning of future shows, I will make it a point to see who the management is, and to give my entry fees to those shows that don't disrespect my horse and myself by hiring such people.

You may indeed not care about the opinion of those outside the show grounds. But if you do, I urge you to reconsider your position on hiring Mr. Valiere, Mr. Kraus and others of the same ilk. So far, the horse show world has been lucky in flying under the radar of the press. If that changes, decisions such as these will have extremely negative reprecussions in the media and possibly in the public. I hope that you will consider the damage such portrayals might have to your organization's image, at least. Even if you don't care about the implicit message your actions send, perhaps concern for your own reputation will lead you to review your hiring practices.

Sincerely,
Gina Kazimir

Portia
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by GotSpots:
I just spoke to someone I believe is Mr. Phelps at the above number. He told me that Wellington Equestrian Alliance is behind the class. He also said that they felt that "Mr. Valliere has made his amends" and that "he has been very active behind the scenes" and that "competitors and judges" don't feel he should be banned. He also said that because it wasn't a recognized day, that they could have anyone they wanted judging it.

Is that an admission that Valliere has not followed the terms of his suspension?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No. What it means is the widely-known fact that every year PV leases property just off of the show grounds -- and therefore not subject to USEF jurisdiction -- and trains his horses and coaches his many students there. On non-recognized show days, he can go wherever he wants on show grounds. On the recognized show days, he abides by his suspension and stays on his property to warm people up, then some other trainer goes over to the show grounds to coach his students for the five minutes before they go into the ring.

Unfortunately, that is a function of the legal limnitations on the USEF's jurisdiction and power. As a matter of law, the USEF only has the power to regulate things and enforce its rules with respect to recognized competitions and the grounds of those competitions. Believe me, there are very many in the org who are just as frustrated and disgusted by it as any of you are.

I do think, however, that is it an issue we need to thoroughly examine in the USEF Ethics Committee. One thing we should do is to determine whether or not it would be possible to have some kind of rule that would extend the limitations to the show grounds when there is a minimum number of days between recognized competitions, as WA suggested. I'll send an e-mail to the rest of the committee and get their take on it.

~~~~~~~~~~~~
I'm not crazy, I'm just a little unwell.

Mom
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:34 AM
Ash - if you trust the governing body, then we have to either abide by its decision, or ask them to change the rules. Their decision does not prevent him from judging a non-sanctioned event, or from making a living.

swansong
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:36 AM
Don't you think if the Fla press got wind of this situation it would put pressure on the management. I noticed in Ocala on the first day when there were just warm ups and a judged Hi-Low class that one of the trwainers who is on the suspension list was standing in the in gate while someone showed her horses. She spent the rest of the show on the road on a truck watching. When people objected they were told that she could participate on the first day since there was nothing recognized. It seems like the management is really splitting hairs and they have no respect for the decisions of the USAE.

BLBGP
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:36 AM
Sandstone -

This was posted by HSM way back on 10/31/01. If you want to read the whole 17 pages of arguments, Try Here (http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7086043131&m=7536006131)

from The Equestrian Times:

The Equestrian Times

"(New York, NY - June 1997)This is official notice of the following action taken by the Hearing Committee of the American Horse Shows Association following a meeting held on March 12, 1996, in the association's New York City offices:

MR. PAUL VALLIERE, of North Smithfield, RI violated Rule III, Article 302.6 and Rule VII, Article 702(a), (d), and (f) of this association, in that he was convicted of having participated in a plan or conspiracy to commit acts of cruelty or abuse to a horse and the conduct underlying his conviction is deemed improper, unethical, dishonest, unsportsmanlike or intemperate, or prejudicial to the best interests of the Association. In considering an appropriate penalty for the violation by MR. VALLIERE, the committee members weighed in his favor that he had cooperated with the government; however, the panel also took into consideration that he hired a killer for the horse Roseau Platiere, owned by him, which was electrocuted as part of a scheme to defraud an insurance company, and that the evidence presented at the hearing established that death by electrocution causes pain to the horse. For his violation of the rules as charged, the committee determined pursuant to the provisions of Rule III, Article 302.6 and Rule VII, Article 703.1 (b), (c) and (f), that effective immediately and until further notice, MR. VALLIERE is hereby expelled from membership in the AHSA and denied all the privileges of membership including the ability to hold or exercise office in the association, attend or participate in association meetings, hold license(s) as an AHSA or FEI official, compete in international competitions or receive AHSA automatic insurance coverages or participate in AHSA group insurance programs and is found not in good standing and he and all horses owned, leased, or of any partnership, corporation or stable of his are found not in good standing and are suspended from competing or taking any part whatsoever in Recognized competitions and he is excluded from all competition grounds during Recognized competitions as an exhibitor, participant, or spectator. The panel members also directed that the Hearing Committee retains jurisdiction over this matter, and MR. VALLIERE may not apply to the Association for reinstatement any sooner than 10 years from the date he first became suspended by the Association on account of his indictment for the crime in question and then only based upon affirmative proof of total rehabilitation, including proof that he has taken steps to reform himself and has performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses. "

Flashy Gray
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:39 AM
The Get Paul a Gig Foundation - http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Newbies or anyone who is unfamiliar with the late 80s/early 90s horse-killing insurance fraud scandals: I am not trying to be condescending toward you with my next statement.

Every time there is a thread on this issue a bunch of folks always come on asking what happened.

It's OK that you don't know all the details - but please go into the "Advanced Search" function of the BB, type in "Paul Valliere" or "Barney Ward" or "Tommy Burns" and you will very quickly have the answer to your question.

SGray
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:43 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Portia:

....I do think, however, that is it an issue we need to thoroughly examine in the USEF Ethics Committee. One thing we should do is to determine whether or not it would be possible to have some kind of rule that would extend the limitations to the show grounds when there is a minimum number of days between recognized competitions, as WA suggested. I'll send an e-mail to the rest of the committee and get their take on it.......

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I should think that this proposal is doable given that Robert Dover had a horse eliminated from competition in Olympic trials when he had Gunther Seidel ride the horse in the time between the two competitions. Granted, that's FEI rules.....

"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it," --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:47 AM
Portia, please check your PT's. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

Portia
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:00 AM
S, the FEI has more power over its international competitions and the competitors therein than the USEF does with respect to its competitions and competitors. The FEI, for example, can enforce rules against certain training practices for a defined period of time before a big competition like the Olympics, no matter where they occur.

The big differences are that the FEI is enforcing rules for a relatively limited number of people and horses at a relatively limited number of competitions, and it can make and enforce special rules for the particular competitions that the competitors must agree to abide by if they wish to compete. The FEI can enforce those special rules because they have international support and are basically the only game in town for those kinds of competitions.

That said, it may be possible for the USEF to enforce "layover" rules of some kind. We'll have to look into the legalities and practicalities of it.

arnika
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:04 AM
This is a copy of the email I sent to Stadium Jumping Inc.:

To the show management,

I recently read the notice in Sidelines regarding Paul Valliere being hired to co-judge the Equus Medal class on March 8th. I wanted to voice my unhappiness with this decision. I understand that this is an unrecognized class held on a Monday between two back to back shows and that legally this will be allowed. However, knowing the background of this individual, I wanted to let you know that as a customer this is extremely distasteful.

I firmly believe a person convicted of conspiring to kill horses and under indefinite suspension is not the best choice for judging either a charity event or a prestigious class that casts a reflection on our national federation. Being hired as an official by the show management of a rated show during the tenure of that show's stay, albeit for a non-rated class, also presents the wrong message to my daughters and any other junior rider at that venue.

I will be contacting the USEF to voice my displeasure in this matter and am considering speaking to the sponsors of this class as well as the WEF. My children are impressionable and this is not the impression I wish them to have of the sport that I love and have participated in since I was young. I also wish to mention that hiring an announcer (Kenneth Kraus) who is also a convicted felon is making me reconsider my daughter's participation in this circuit.

Ash
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:06 AM
Mom-
I understand that the rules do not keep him from judging an non-sanctioned event or making a living. I think you missed my point. I was addressing your outrage:

"I simply despise the condemnation of individuals by those without full first-hand knowledge."

To me it seems that you are implying that there is something we do not know. That maybe he took the fall or was not guilty of what he was accused of? Either that or you are saying that unless we actually saw him commit these heinous acts, we have no right to hold him accountable. THAT is the part I am confused about...........

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

clearound
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:07 AM
You guys can flame me all you want (I have thick skin), but I am really getting tired of these rants and raves about people who have been convicted and did their time only to be sentenced again by most members on this board.

I am not saying that all should be forgiven. However, they have paid for their sins in more ways then one. If you don't like the fact that KK anounces at Stadium Jumping, don't participate there, if you don't like the fact that he officiates Towerheads, then don't join, if you don't like the fact that PV is judging the class, don't go.

I am really getting tired of reading the same old thing over and over again, so I guess my only choice is not to read these Boards. What a shame as to the other useful information that many people have to offer.

GotSpots
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:08 AM
Portia -- you are likely right. I'm having an ethical problem with the wink-wink, nudge-nudge part of his suspension. It was just the matter of fact way that Mr. Phelps said it that really got my goat.

nelson
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:11 AM
Arnika and Hopeful Hunter - excellent letters indeed! I think you said it all, and quite well. I will be anxious to hear what kind of response (if any!) you get from SJI.

lisa
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flashy Gray:

It's OK that you don't know all the details - but please go into the "Advanced Search" function of the BB, type in "Paul Valliere" or "Barney Ward" or "Tommy Burns" and you will very quickly have the answer to your question.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Or "Jerry Farmer". Although I'm not sure of his current employment status with HITS, he is in Ocala coaching, albeit off the show grounds. Ewww. &lt;shudder&gt;

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:12 AM
Please correct me if I'm wrong but he HASN'T done his time and that's the point.


http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

Sunday
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:

Below is the text of an email I just sent to SJI, with copies to John Long and Donald O'Conner at USEF.
--------
Dear Mr. Mische:

I am writing because ...

So far, the horse show world has been lucky in flying under the radar of the press. If that changes, decisions such as these will have extremely negative reprecussions in the media and possibly in the public...
Sincerely,
Gina Kazimir<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


Do you really see any change in the future to the press about our sport? What Press would you like to see it in? COTH or other horse related Press or something larger? Have you tried to take information like this specifically or other related topics to the Press? Have they responded?

Janet
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:17 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You guys can flame me all you want (I have thick skin), but I am really getting tired of these rants and raves about people who have been convicted and did their time only to be sentenced again by most members on this board. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> At least PART of the point is that they have NOT yet "done their time". PV still has several years left on his suspension, and KK still has several years left on his probation.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Janet
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:19 AM
IF a significant number of competitors chose to go to Ocala rather than WEF, THEN maybe SJI will get the message.

And if they don't, then SJI is right in saying "people don't care".

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Heidi
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:23 AM
Unbelievable.

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Unfortunately, IMHO, the only conditions under which they will alter their ways is if it impacts their bottom line or public profile.

I think the letter campaign would best be initiated by current exhibitors/barns who contribute the lion share of their revenues.

That said, a letter writing campaign to their sponsors will effect their bottom line - and would probably be a better investment of our time and efforts. And in this instance, a petition would probably be very effective.

'Outing' their practises to the mass market media would certainly impact their public profile. If you 'package' all the scandals in the sport to the mass market media, there's certainly a meaty story there.

To that end, I'd also contribute should enough people want to take out an ad in COTH. Does anyone recall the 'Letter from a disgruntled client' (I'm paraphrasing 'cause I can't remember the exact title) a while back in COTH. A similar declaration may also serve the 'public humiliation' end.

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:27 AM
Hear, hear Heidi. Very well said. It is a pretty sad indication of where the bottom line is in this sport.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

Plumcreek
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:30 AM
The 'horses killed for insurance' scandals DID come to the attention of the public, as nearly every TV drama series had one episode where rich owners had their horses killed and the star of the show solved the crime. Just last month I inadvertently started watching an episode of "The Handler" and kept watching it because the plot revolved around a race horse trainer who moonlighted killing horses for owners who needed some quick insurance cash. These TV shows all have given the impression that these events are a regular occurance in the professional horse world. The general public watches these shows and does not see the 'real' horse world (you and me).
So, yes, I think outcry and action are needed to insure continued inforcement of the punishment of the miscreants. PV, et al, may be technically allowed on the showgrounds on certain days, but free speech allows protestors with large signs at ringside, no?

ALF
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
IF a significant number of competitors chose to go to Ocala rather than WEF, THEN maybe SJI will get the message.

And if they don't, then SJI is right in saying "people don't care".

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If HITS could secure PV to judge an Eq class, a significant number of competitors would choose to go to Ocala over WEF.

sonomacounty
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:32 AM
Perfectly said, Quinn.

* lost tb *

clearound
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> You guys can flame me all you want (I have thick skin), but I am really getting tired of these rants and raves about people who have been convicted and did their time only to be sentenced again by most members on this board. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> At least PART of the point is that they have NOT yet "done their time". PV still has several years left on his suspension, and KK still has several years left on his probation.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Having several years on his probation does not mean that KK cannot announce at horse shows or host a website nor does it mean that PV cannot train horses, riders or officate at a non USEF sanctioned event. As I tell people, these are the laws that we as a country have chosen to abide by, if you don't like them move to another country.

caffeinated
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:39 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by clearound:
As a tell people, these are the laws that we as a country have chosen to abide by, if you don't like them move to another country.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I hate this smiley... but http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I wasn't even going to comment in this thread, but the whole "if you don't like, leave!" thing really annoys me.

So I'm just annoyed now.

Anyhoo, as far as PV goes... it makes me sad. I'm really feeling ill over everything that's been posted today... that people do all these things for money and scraps of ribbon just makes me want to scream. Everybody starts with horses out of a sincere love for the animal, I thought... what the hell goes wrong?

it just makes me sad. AFAIC anybody involved in killing horses for insurance money should be completely banned forever, too bad licenses aren't required for training so they can't really be controlled. But what do I know, I'm just a weekend warrior with a "pet"

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

tennis
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:44 AM
i rode with PV and benefited very much from his expertise. i am not pleased with his former bad judgement. but, i do believe we all, as humans, can learn from our mistakes. we can change. we can feel remorse. we can repent. i challenge anyone on these boards to differ. so, maybe while paul lives with this everyday of his life, maybe he is trying to mend his ways and isnt that the basis of our great america. (even jail is for reform-the key word-our system tries to reform people)- so isnt that pauls road? perhaps he is on his way-or alnmost there-or is there- unless you are paul, you dont know!
so the fact he donates large portions of his lesson money, and the fact that he tries to better the sport eveyday he lives, these are good signs to me. in closing, (and as i am sure the flames are growing)- while paul made a horrible decision in his past, he is still a great trainer/teacher-his mistake can not take that away from him- he makes riders and horses be their best thru his tutalage- so, his judging in my eyes, is a good thing. people can benefit from his wisdom and judging.
ok flamers-i am ready. but i do know from being on these boards, that there are just as many out there who agree with me- thank you for reading my post.

CuriousGeorge
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:45 AM
Simply out of curiosity, how many of you who have your knickers in a twist about this have ever shown at a show recognized by the national governing body?

(LordHelpus excepted, of course.)

caffeinated
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
Simply out of curiosity, how many of you who have your knickers in a twist about this have ever shown at a rated show?

(LordHelpus excepted, of course.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL

I have. I didn't do that great though, does that still count, CG?

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:49 AM
Curious George, what am I missing in your question? How the heck does that have anything whatsoever to do with this? Are you implying that if you show at a rated show you are less inclined to have morals??? Please expand. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one. And for the record, yes I do.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

Policy of Truth
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:52 AM
CG, what does that have to do with having moral fibers? And for the record, as if it matters, I have..and know MANY who have posted have. Does that clear it up enough for you? I may not be able to afford WEF, but does that make my opinion any less valid?

"All chip in for a full-page protest ad in COTH??"

I'll gladly chip in...who is in charge?

clearound
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tennis:
i rode with PV and benefited very much from his expertise. i am not pleased with his former bad judgement. but, i do believe we all, as humans, can learn from our mistakes. we can change. we can feel remorse. we can repent. i challenge anyone on these boards to differ. so, maybe while paul lives with this everyday of his life, maybe he is trying to mend his ways and isnt that the basis of our great america. (even jail is for reform-the key word-our system tries to reform people)- so isnt that pauls road? perhaps he is on his way-or alnmost there-or is there- unless you are paul, you dont know!
so the fact he donates large portions of his lesson money, and the fact that he tries to better the sport eveyday he lives, these are good signs to me. in closing, (and as i am sure the flames are growing)- while paul made a horrible decision in his past, he is still a great trainer/teacher-his mistake can not take that away from him- he makes riders and horses be their best thru his tutalage- so, his judging in my eyes, is a good thing. people can benefit from his wisdom and judging.
ok flamers-i am ready. but i do know from being on these boards, that there are just as many out there who agree with me- thank you for reading my post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Tennis - Thank you.

Big Day
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:52 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
Simply out of curiosity, how many of you who have your knickers in a twist about this have ever shown at a show recognized by the national governing body?

(LordHelpus excepted, of course.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And this would matter how? I for one, spent my entire junior career showing in rated shows, and I think PV has this lifetime and several more to repent for what he did. Hope that helps your curiosity...

Duffy
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:54 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
Simply out of curiosity, how many of you who have your knickers in a twist about this have ever shown at a show recognized by the national governing body?

(LordHelpus excepted, of course.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of for heaven's sake. Not that it matters, but yes, I've shown at many shows recognized by the national governing body, as have plenty of others here. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"B***h in training"

Flash44
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:00 AM
Mistake = arranging to have a healthy show horse killed for money? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I think the words "greed" and "utter lack of compassion for other living beings" are closer to the mark.

obie
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:05 AM
War Admiral & Hopeful Hunter: Could you please PT me - I have a letter I wrote to the sponsors that I would like for you to proof read. I will also send a copy to SJ, WEF, and USEF so that they know I wrote to their sponsors.

Portia: Who is head of the ethics committee?

Curious George - I don't know if my knickers are exactly what you would call twisted, but yes, I did and still do compete in recgnized shows, (including WEF).

Policy of Truth
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:05 AM
Duffy...
http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Heidi
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tennis:

while paul made a horrible decision in his past, he is still a great trainer/teacher-his mistake can not take that away from him- he makes riders and horses be their best thru his tutalage- so, his judging in my eyes, is a good thing. people can benefit from his wisdom and judging. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right about his talents as a trainer and teacher, tennis -- but his arrogance and greed won the day. And his philanthropic gestures and largesse, well, they're laughably token gestures - if you consider the crime and its motivations.

It is unfathomable, not to mention unforgiveable, that you'd murder the very thing that enabled your success in the first place - the horse.

That's right, C.G., those who haven't shown at rated shows don't understand how the game works, and because of their exclusion from the vaunted horsey circles, aren't entitled to an opinion, much less the desire to improve the sport for all concerned... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Ash
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:08 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
Simply out of curiosity, how many of you who have your knickers in a twist about this have ever shown at a show recognized by the national governing body?

(LordHelpus excepted, of course.)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Showing at WEF right now, so CG does that make my opinion more valuable??.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

************************************************** **********
Every great man has his disciples, and it is always Judas who writes the biography.
--Oscar Wilde

Dow Jones
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:15 AM
Do tell, Curious George, how many A shows have you competed in?

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:19 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heidi:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tennis:

while paul made a horrible decision in his past, he is still a great trainer/teacher-his mistake can not take that away from him- he makes riders and horses be their best thru his tutalage- so, his judging in my eyes, is a good thing. people can benefit from his wisdom and judging. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right about his talents as a trainer and teacher, tennis -- but his arrogance and greed won the day. And his philanthropic gestures and largesse, well, they're laughably token gestures - if you consider the crime and its motivations.

It is unfathomable, not to mention unforgiveable, that you'd murder the very thing that enabled your success in the first place - the horse.

That's right, C.G., those who haven't shown at rated shows don't understand how the game works, and because of their exclusion from the vaunted horsey circles, aren't entitled to an opinion, much less the desire to improve the sport for all concerned... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Couldn't have said this as well let alone any better. In a nutshell. Well said.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:31 AM
I confess I do rather wish we could stay on topic here, but to satisfy your curiosity, yes, I've shown rated off and on my entire life if and when it suits my purpose and the needs of whatever horse(s) I may have in training.

Have competed in, oh, lessee, about 17 different divisions over the years in saddle seat, hunt seat and driving... Done a little eventing, but never rated... Most of this w/ OTTB's I have brought along myself...

Will show rated this year in Saddlebred CP and Adult CP Eq. (that's the flat-shod horses w/ no requirement for set tails, guys, chill already) and w/ my rescue TB in carriage driving assuming he stays sound, b/c if he doesn't we won't show. I tend to be kinda peculiar about things like that.

I'm not showing rated H/J any more because I *choose* not to. I'd love to be able to change my mind about this, but the discipline will have to change in order to attract my business back. Meanwhile, I feel I'm better off putting my efforts and energy into my ex-"A" circuit rescue TB, who deserves to be well treated for once in his sorry old life. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

...And your broad base of experience is...??

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

Silk
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by tennis:
i rode with PV and benefited very much from his expertise. i am not pleased with his former bad judgement. but, i do believe we all, as humans, can learn from our mistakes. we can change. we can feel remorse. we can repent. i challenge anyone on these boards to differ. so, maybe while paul lives with this everyday of his life, maybe he is trying to mend his ways and isnt that the basis of our great america. (even jail is for reform-the key word-our system tries to reform people)- so isnt that pauls road? perhaps he is on his way-or alnmost there-or is there- unless you are paul, you dont know!
so the fact he donates large portions of his lesson money, and the fact that he tries to better the sport eveyday he lives, these are good signs to me. in closing, (and as i am sure the flames are growing)- while paul made a horrible decision in his past, he is still a great trainer/teacher-his mistake can not take that away from him- he makes riders and horses be their best thru his tutalage- so, his judging in my eyes, is a good thing. people can benefit from his wisdom and judging.
ok flamers-i am ready. but i do know from being on these boards, that there are just as many out there who agree with me- thank you for reading my post.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can agree with this. If you think he did it "for the money" you are mistaken. There are other reasons that we do things we dont want to do.

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

CuriousGeorge
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:34 AM
"Are you implying that if you show at a rated show you are less inclined to have morals???"

No. Far from it. My point was that if you are that vocal in supporting the principle of organized horse showing - that means drug testing, a rulebook, and consequences for breaking those rules - you should at least be a member of the organization even if you are not an active participant in its competitions. I am NOT referring to most of you - I am well aware of many of your competition records. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

And of course everyone is entitled to their own opinion about this. I fully understand why many of you are so upset about this. I just think that SJI is more likely to listen to people who have a "vested interest" so to speak. I know, it's a bit of a tangent.

caffeinated
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:37 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:
I can agree with this. If you think he did it "for the money" you are mistaken. There are other reasons that we do things we dont want to do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

OK, this is a record for me, two posts in a PV thread...

But it's not like someone held a gun to his head, was it? If he "didn't want to" and was so upstanding... why didn't he just walk away or stay uninvolved? If he didn't want to, he didn't have to, as far as I'm concerned...

I really didn't want to get involved in the argument, too late, I don't want you to think I'm ranting and raving and turning red-faced, but it seems to me if you don't want to be involved in horse killing, you don't get involved. I can't imagine being in any kind of moral dilemma about such a thing

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

Plumcreek
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:38 AM
I have recently shown A Circuit. I believe that PV is a good trainer and sincerely regrets what he did and I remember his ad publically asking for forgiveness. BUT, he now has a golden opportunity to improve the sport by serving as a horrible example to others whose ethics could be easily corrupted. He should abide by the full term of his punishment. There are ways to make a living with horses off the showgrounds.

War Admiral
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:39 AM
Thanks for the clarification, CG. My apologies for taking your question the wrong way. Totally in agreement as a matter of fact - and anyone who decides to write or call, I'd encourage you to let them know you ARE a member, and put your USEF# on your e-mail. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

Silk
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
But it's not like someone held a gun to his head, was it? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...or was it?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If he "didn't want to" and was so upstanding... why didn't he just walk away or stay uninvolved? **<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not always as easy as it sounds.....



**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

Vandy
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:44 AM
Silk,
I am curious to know what you know about PV's circumstances that we don't? Please enlighten us...

BTW I used to ride with him and still consider him the best trainer I've ever had. However, I for one haven't heard a reasonable explaination for what he did...

On Second Thought
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vandy:
Silk,
I am curious to know what you know about PV's circumstances that we don't? Please enlighten us...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's obvious she's VERY much on the inside. So far inside in fact that it's dark..and cold...and deluded.

caffeinated
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:51 AM
I don't usually think in black and white, I usually try to pay attention to the circumstances in every situation. But I'm having trouble believing there was some kind of evil force involved.

He made a choice. There have been times in my life when I've been pressured to make a wrong choice- in the end, whatever choice I make, I'M responsible for it regardless of how I was pressured or what happened.

Unless there was someone standing next to him with a gun to his head, it was still his choice, and if he believed it was THAT wrong he wouldn't have made it.

In my overblown opinion that doesn't count for much to anybody else, anyway

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

Janet
Feb. 26, 2004, 10:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
Simply out of curiosity, how many of you who have your knickers in a twist about this have ever shown at a show recognized by the national governing body?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>My knickers are perfectly comfortable, thank you.

Yes I do now, and have, competed at AHSA/USAEq/USEF rated shows, starting about 1966.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

JEP
Feb. 26, 2004, 11:04 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
IF a significant number of competitors chose to go to Ocala rather than WEF, THEN maybe SJI will get the message.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I totally agree that this would be the cleanest and most effective way to send the message. However, I can't envision it working right now...

For one thing, this wouldn't send the message until next year, at the earliest, and judging by the immediate action you all have taken, next winter seems too long to wait.

I think the bigger issue, however, is that the clients with top dollar-the ones that enter (often multiple) horses in the "big" classes, and sometimes sponsor them-aren't going anywhere. Many of these ride or have ridden with suspended trainers, and they appear comfortable with this choice.

WEF is the top rung on the horse show ladder-success in these rings often has a big impact on the rest of the horse/rider's show year. The winners at WEF are the ones to watch. The show has top money, top judges, top courses, top vendors, top trainers, exciting special classes, etc.

I am certainly not bashing Ocala. I think it is a lovely show. I once sent my horse there for two years because I thought it was a better match for his green self than WEF. However, if you walk around the grounds or listen to the results, it is immediately apparent that it is a totally different playing field.

Until this changes, the big trainers (suspended and not) will continue to send their horses to Wellington.

LLDM
Feb. 26, 2004, 11:14 AM
I, for one, would like to think that if I ever got so sucked in, so blackmailed, or so threatened, that I did something so reprehensible as kill (or abet killing) anything I would not ever expect to be forgiven.

Some crimes are just not really forgivable. Hurting the innocent tends to be up there on the list. Child molesters are not forgiven. They may complete the sentence for their crimes, but they are still tracked and checked upon. They can still make a living, but not with children. Do you send your children to summer camp with those folks who only molested a child once, but felt real bad about it later?

Sometimes we make mistakes of a magnitude that our chances are over forever. Horses and children are both unable to defend themselves against people who would harm them. They do not understand this level of threat and thus, are helpless. It is up to us, their stewards, to protect them as best we can. In some cases it needs to be extreme and absolute.

I am so sorry, killing a horse for insurance should ba a one strike, you're out offense. Find another way to make a living, 'cause you blew this one, you're done here, you're fired.

IMHO

SCFarm

A Leg at Each Corner

carosello
Feb. 26, 2004, 11:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Hopeful Hunter:
As to Jerry Farmer at HITS -- on other threads it was mentioned that he is lurking around, doing odd work until he could be reinstated and appear more publicly. I DO NOT KNOW IF THIS IS CURRENTLY TRUE. That's why I want to ASK if it is, and then state any concerns I personally have.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


GAG not THE Jerry Farmer formerly in IL who was banned but still trains and has horses in his barn. Did you know that I, little old me, worked for said scank when he was managing a farm locally. I did not know him then, nor his reputation but all I can say is horses came and went from Canada with new names and prices and many many many were drugged for clients. I saw it first hand. I also knew he was supporting another farm (closer to Chicago) with what he was bilking from the Mecums who owned the farm he was running locally. Scum of the earth. Run away if you ever meet him or his "posse"

Just my own $0.02 of course.

RacetrackReject
Feb. 26, 2004, 11:43 AM
I am not a H/J person, so I probably should not even be posting on this subject, but I just have to comment on one thing that people keep repeating.

Certain people on these boards keep saying how PV and KK and others "have repented" and "showed remorse". Well of course they have. They were CAUGHT. Being caught commiting a crime has a funny way of making people remorseful. If these people had not been caught and convicted of their crimes, do you honestly think they would have stopped?

"Faith is the our hardest thing to find-- true faith rather than false faith. The horse between your legs is closer to your body than your own head is, so he feels your loss of faith before you realize it yourself"- Jane Smiley

carosello
Feb. 26, 2004, 11:54 AM
http://www.chronofhorse.com/inc/98/jul10.html
July 10, 1998
AHSA EXPELS 13 MORE FROM INSURANCE-FRAUD TRIALS

On June 22 the American Horse Shows Association's Hearing Committee announced that it had reached decisions against 13 people who pleaded guilty or were convicted in the insurance-fraud cases for which the indictments were announced in August 1994.

All 13 individuals have been expelled from membership and are not allowed to be present on the grounds of AHSA-recognized competitions. All were suspended after they were indicted, and they may not apply for reinstatement for periods ranging from five to 25 years after that date.

The most famous of this group are show jumpers Barney Ward and George Lindemann Jr. and Lindemann's stable manager, Marion Hulick.

Lindemann, of Wellington, Fla., and Hulick, of Sterling, Mass., were convicted of arranging for the electrocution of show hunter Charisma to defraud an insurance company of $250,000. The committee noted that neither Lindemann nor Hulick had cooperated with the government and that neither had "shown remorse or accepted responsibility regarding this act of cruelty." Consequently, Lindemann may not apply for 25 years, Hulick for 15.

Ward, of Brewster, N.Y., admitted to arranging for the deaths of four horses by electrocution (including Charisma) for insurance fraud, with admitted horse killer Tommy Burns. The committee weighed that Ward had cooperated with government investigators, though not until late, and ruled he can apply for reinstatement in 15 years.

The others are:

Nancy Banfield of Pound Ridge, N.Y., was convicted of arranging, with Ward, to have her horse Rub The Lamp electrocuted. She may not apply for 10 years.


Lisa Brandon of Harvard, Ill., was convicted of being involved in a scheme to kill Cloud Castle to defraud an insurance company. She may not apply for seven years.


Robert Brown of Delton, Mich., was convicted of conspiracy to defraud a person through fraudulent transactions. He cooperated with the government and may not apply for five years.


Jerry Farmer of Augusta, Ga., and Steve Williamson of Chicago, Ill, were convicted of conspiracy. Farmer admitted to a grand jury that he had arranged for the killing of Empire to defraud an insurance company and that he had "personally killed other horses." Williamson admitted to standing lookout while Empire was killed and then helping to create false symptoms of colic. Farmer may not apply for 10 years; Williamson cooperated with the government and may not apply for five years.


Herbert Kroninger of Chicago, Ill., and Phil Sudakoff of Chicago were convicted of recruiting first one and then a second veterinarian to kill Instant Little Man to defraud an insurance company, although the second veterinarian became a government informer and the horse wasn't killed. Neither may apply for 10 years.


Ross Hugi, DVM, of Mundelein, Ill., admitted "engaging in intentional acts of misrepresentation regarding horses and admitted making false and misleading representations to defraud horse owners." In addition, he admitted witnessing a trainer kill Jatomic Streaker by flipping the horse out of a trailer and then killing it with a sledgehammer. Hugi then admitted he falsified the report to the insurance com-pany. He may not apply for 10 years.


Alan Levinson of Highland Park, Ill., was convicted of participating in an insurance-fraud scheme involving the death of Rainman by electrocution. Levinson cooperated with the government and may not apply for 10 years.


Ronald Mueller of Spring Grove, Ill., admitted his involvement in the deaths of several horses by "bludgeoning to death with a sledgehammer, striking to death with a crowbar, burning to death and electrocution." He cooperated with the government but may not apply for 20 years.
The AHSA Hearing Committee will consider reinstatement only if "the applicants submit affirmative proof of their total rehabilitation, including proof they have taken steps to reform themselves and have performed community service to benefit the welfare of horses and horse sports."

The committee has now ruled on 22 of the 31 cases resulting from the investigation by the U.S. Attorney for the Northern District of Illinois.
*******************************************

Ok so how do you find out if people mentioned have been reinstated?

Drummerboy
Feb. 26, 2004, 11:55 AM
There are always those on "the inside" who have knowledge that perhaps John Q. Public does not, BUT, if the crime is as heinous as horse killing, child abuse (regardless of said child being a "teenager") or drug abuse, you may say they were set up, duped, pressured or what have you. People have choices. If you are going to make a bad choice, deal with the consequences. There is no "do over" here, people.

This should not be happening, I agree with the majority on this board. I also know that others who have had, er, transgressions, are still practicing in this business. Someone said, "fine, let PV make a living off of the show grounds", I agree. He did a local final in New England that was met with similar response. We didn't go. We will not show under a judge that has had questionable conduct, that is brought up to the governing board.

And yes, we do the A's.

Sam Iam
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:06 PM
carosello,

Very informative post. To the best of my knowledge, Ross Hugi is still a practicing veterinarian in the Chicago area. Can any other Chicagoans confirm or deny? If so, how is this possible? Wouldn't he have lost his license and why would you trust him as your vet?

Heidi
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:12 PM
Any fellow Canadians find it odd, in light of the Liberal sponsorship scandal, that Canadian National is a Diamond Sponsor?

carosello
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:13 PM
I dont know Hugi nor have I met him. Im not sure if he still practices or is even in the state any longer.

http://www.kenlaw.com/7circuit/1999/jan/98-2605.html.html

http://www.crimelibrary.com/notorious_murders/celebrity/helen_brach/9.html?sect=26

Ben and Me
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:17 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>As I tell people, these are the laws that we as a country have chosen to abide by, if you don't like them move to another country. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why the hell should I have to leave? I'm the one following the rules here...And am not on a lifetime suspension by the NGB--Mr. Valliere, however, is.

I think the main point of this thread is that some people ARE trying to get the laws changed, to better protect those who do follow the rules, and are also encouraging others to do the same. There is nothing wrong about doing that--its called the right to petition, and can be found in the First Amendment of our Constitution. That is the REAL, SUPREME law of our country--if you don't like it, then why don't you move?

Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
-T.S. Eliot

Silver Bells
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:26 PM
This thread has surely sparked alot of emotion, as it did last year!
PV is judging a USAEQ unrecognized event...
Period The End! How long must a person be punished? Is there a time when all is forgiven, and a new start given?

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:28 PM
Heidi not only did I find it odd, I found it worth investigating. Which of course I will now do. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

Janet
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Bells:

How long must a person be punished? Is there a time when all is forgiven, and a new start given?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes. If/when the USEF chooses to reinstate him.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Ben and Me
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:40 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> How long must a person be punished? Is there a time when all is forgiven, and a new start given? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I feel that since he has a lifetime suspension, the answer to this has to be no. Obviously the NGB at the time felt that what he did was heinous enough to warrent no second chance--I don't really see why others have such a hard time seeing this point. However, I suppose there is really nothing preventing them from hiring him to judge this class or training with him--but I certainly believe that there should be.

No one is forcing him to be involved in a horse-related industry. He could certainly earn a living in another field--though he may have to give up certain comforts. In most other cases, if someone is suspended from their profession, they are forced in to another field, mainly because competing companies will not offer that person employment. However, this does not appear to be the case in the horse industry--many are still willing to train with a permanently suspended man.

I know that we will never be able to completely govern morality--and that we shouldn't! On the other hand, it cannot, in my mind, be "moral" to train with a man convicted of the crimes for which Mr. Valliere was. I wish that others could see my point, but I am certainly not going to try and force it on to them. The most that I can do is to voice my disapproval to the NGB, the show management, the sponsors, etc. and hope that someone smarter than me will somehow find a way to fix what I see as a problem.

Along these lines, I do believe that anyone who has been permanently suspended should not be allowed to train. He made the mistake, and should have to pay for it--if it means losing his livelihood then so be it. Its his fault, and he should have to pay the consequences--and yes, I do feel that the consequences should be stiffer if need be in order to enforce this rule.

Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
-T.S. Eliot

Liz
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:44 PM
Silver Bells...I am not for never "forgiving" PV. While I personaly believe his crimes are so heinous that I would never patronize him (there are too many good trainers out there) I do believe once he has "served his time" then he should be able to apply the be reinstated. And if you use him as a trainer that is your business. That being said I guess my big issue is that he has not yet finished "serving his time" and the show organizers by sanctioning this event and allowing this loop hole are thumbing their noses at the conviction.
Wheather it is an official class or not, wheather rules are broken or not, claim whatever you want but I believe it is in very poor taste and in my opinion shows poor judgement by the show organizers.

fleur
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:48 PM
ben&me... if i'm not mistaken PV doesn't have a lifetime suspension. i think it's only for another few years. not sure on that though.

Janet
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:50 PM
It is a lifetime suspension, but he can apply to be reinstated after 10 (I think) years. But he doesn't automatically get re-instated.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

fleur
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:56 PM
oh, ok. my bad, thanks for the clarification, janet!

Silver Bells
Feb. 26, 2004, 12:59 PM
I do not train with PV. I will say that he had some wonderful horses and riders back in the day.
I still want to know, why a lifetime suspension? After all, there has to be a time when PV is given the opportunity to re-apply...
He is extremely visible as a trainer and an agent anyway....
What does everyone think?

Quinn
Feb. 26, 2004, 01:05 PM
I believe he IS given the chance to reapply after a 10 year period.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

Silver Bells
Feb. 26, 2004, 01:11 PM
If indeed, it is a fact, that PV can re-apply after 10 years... when exactly would he be eligible to do so?

Erin
Feb. 26, 2004, 01:22 PM
The indictments were announced in the summer of 1994, so I would assume the suspensions went into effect sometime in 1994 or '95? Lindeman's trial was in the fall of '95, and PV pleaded guilty, so his stuff would all have been settled before that.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Feb. 26, 2004, 01:23 PM
I'm sure someone else will be able to give a 10 yr anniversary date - I do remember discussion the winter of 2001/2002, when he was advertising how "all his lesson income" in some period would go to help all the horses hurt in the WTC collapse (never did see #'s as to how many horses might have been on any given floor, or in the vicinity) - about the likelihood that that was prep work for an upcoming (not scheduled, but within the next couple years at that time) re-instatement hearing.

Sorry for the major run-on. A thread search might well turn up specifics.

Jeannette, formerly ponygyrl
Feb. 26, 2004, 01:25 PM
So just curious - do the specs for this class in any way mention "horsemanship" or just "equitation" ??? Not that it matters to my moral take on the scene, but it changes the irony quotient...

BLBGP
Feb. 26, 2004, 01:29 PM
According to the article I posted back on page 4, PV's hearing was in 1996.

"(New York, NY - June 1997)This is official notice of the following action taken by the Hearing Committee of the American Horse Shows Association following a meeting held on March 12, 1996, in the association's New York City offices....."

Joanie's Pass
Feb. 26, 2004, 01:34 PM
I had posted this a while back on the "Lessons with Suspended Trainers", it fits my thoughts after reading this thread as well, though I would broaden that to shows and the general acceptance of show management and others of the behavior that the majority here seem to find disturbing at the least.

If someone trains with a suspended trainer, knowingly, then they are sending the message that what the trainer did was ok, which implies it would be ok to do that again! I am talking about the trainers who have had horses killed for insurance money and/or use drugs (illegal or illegal amounts) on their horses. I could care less about those with payment issues.

Think about it, if you give money to a trainer who killed a horse for insurance money - where did he get the money to kill that horse in the first place? From people just like you, they just did not know it.

The more that people accept this sort of behavior, the easier it is for that trainer (and other trainers) to delude themselves into believing they did nothing wrong. What message does that send to up and coming trainers? What is their "road to success"?

Not a message I would want them to live by, that is for sure!

Janet
Feb. 26, 2004, 01:57 PM
PV's suspension started 4/15/96 (just checked the suspensions web site).

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

wanderlust
Feb. 26, 2004, 01:57 PM
I can't even believe there is a debate over whether it is kosher that the show management hired PV. It is, to me, very cut and dry. In my understanding of events, the man arranged to have a horse KILLED for the insurance payout as it was not performing in a way to justify its original purchase price. So, instead of donating/reselling at a loss/retiring the animal, they intentionally KILLED it. They also committed insurance fraud.

Me, I feel bad when I squish spiders. The thought of having to put down a really sick animal is gut-wrenching but the noble thing to do. Intentionally killing a horse for the insurance payout is absolutely reprehensible and truly speaks about the character of someone who would be able to do so.

I'll never understand folks who continue to train with him, nor the parents of juniors who send their kids to them. There are enough excellent coaches out there with high standards and a lack of criminal record for killing the same animals they are entrusted to care for.

[This message was edited by wanderlust on Feb. 26, 2004 at 05:14 PM.]

MAD
Feb. 26, 2004, 02:30 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If we decide to do anything collectively, let's keep it ethical, legal & sane. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since when in history has a lynch mob been sane?

Flame suit securely on.

Note that this is not a comment [pro or con] on the choice of judges.

poltroon
Feb. 26, 2004, 02:36 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silver Bells:
PV is judging a USAEQ unrecognized event...
Period The End! How long must a person be punished? Is there a time when all is forgiven, and a new start given?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm pretty sure that the Hearing Committee said 10 years (at least). Is counting to 10 so difficult?

I'm aware that this is within the letter of the rules, as is his coaching riders just off the show grounds to prep them for a class. However, these actions are totally outside the SPIRIT of the suspension and do not suggest to me a display of remorse or rehabilitation.

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 26, 2004, 03:19 PM
CG -- I show on a local rated circuit which is run under USEF rules, but is not a rated show (no prizemoney offered). However, I have in the past been an AHSA member - dropped it when I felt there was no value and didn't want to support bickering that didn't help those who wanted to advance - and I have actually just written the check to rejoin the USEF. I had been considering doing the rated shows but frankly I'm not sure I want to with the more I learn -- and THAT is why I get my knickers in a twist, because we are losing potential new members of our sport who feel as I do.

Sunday -- by "press" in the context of my letter I meant not the equine press but the general press. The equine press preaches mostly to those already in the loop who have made their minds up about how they wish to react to issues in the sport. The general press, though, has the power to influence the people who may already have a distorted image of riding (read: for rich white skinny people only) and whose goodwill we need to have places to ride, keep our horses, etc.

The reality is that one enterprising local news reporter could do a major story on the "seedy side of showmanship" in FL and it would be so hot it would probably get an awful lot of adjunct media interest.

Now me, I'd rather have media interest because an equestrian is carrying the flag for our Olympic team, or because a rescue horse has won a major event, or something that AVERAGE people might relate to instead of horse-killing or drugging or abuse scandals.

CBoylen
Feb. 26, 2004, 03:37 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heidi:
Any fellow Canadians find it odd, in light of the Liberal sponsorship scandal, that Canadian National is a Diamond Sponsor?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you enlighten a non-resident half Canadian? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif What scandal?
And why would it be odd for CN to sponsor? The company and the Harrison family have been great supporters of the horse business both as sponsors and owners.

http://community.webshots.com/user/anallie

mbp
Feb. 26, 2004, 04:00 PM
So, is the Wellington Equestrian Alliance itself the "charity" that will be benefitting from the class?

Eddina Monsoon
Feb. 26, 2004, 04:04 PM
Jerry Farmer could pick up Paul V at the airport and drive him to a show that KK announces and all we need is Crazy Cathy as the show vet.

CuriousGeorge
Feb. 26, 2004, 04:13 PM
Cathy and Dana Tripp Waters can share the DVMing duties.

HSM
Feb. 26, 2004, 04:50 PM
Lord Helpus...

That is very sad, but not very surprising. Thank you for sharing it.

------------------------------
I'm just the mom....

Duffy
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:45 PM
Thank you for the updates!

"B***h in training"

Fluffernutter
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:50 PM
I sent PV my $1,000,000 GP jumper and he sold him for $350!

In all seriousness people...If this thread were about any other trainer it would be considered inappropriate to be using these specific examples, right? Shouldn't we maybe stick to slamming PV for the one crime for which he was tried and convicted? There should be enough to discuss there...

Mom
Feb. 26, 2004, 05:53 PM
The slanderous comments really have to stop, people.

Magnolia
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:30 PM
If he can be reinstated in 2006, why doesn't he just wait until 2006, get reinstated and then go about judging and whatnot? Why not let the recent drug suspendees show next month? Why even suspend? 10 years isn't that long.... you committed fraud - just stay away from the limelight for a while..... and are the people that run WEF into bad publicity or what?

Frankly, he should have gotten a good dose of jail time and why you would train with him, I don't know..... is he that fantastic? There is no justification for what he did- don't care how much cash his client was out. And even if this happens "all the time" well, he got caught - should be made an example......

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

jlf
Feb. 26, 2004, 06:51 PM
I have to ask this question as a person who studies criminal behavior: Do you believe that when a person commits a crime, and is subsequently, and justly, punished by the criminal justice system (as well as other relevent institutions), that he or she should be condemned for life?

I realize that many of you are very wealthy, and have not had to live and work closely with a criminal population (or so you think until word of their convictions spread). You are very fortunate. I also realize that the crimes that people are referring to on this BB are serious.

But I want you to think about the fact that these posts are continually referring to a handful of people who have committed serious crimes in the horse show world. Now, I want you to think about the fact that over 2 million people are currently in prison or jail in the US - and even more are under some other form of criminal justice supervision - for robbery, rape, murder, drugs, etc. Is it reasonable for society to alienate all of these people because of their crimes? Of course not...unless you support the business of warehousing people...as well as ruining their families' lives.

Or maybe it's different when we consider the status of our elite sport? Ooh, I see...a handful of these millions of people are intersecting with your normally safe and wealthy world...how could we possibly taint the morals of the horse show world with people who have contributed their lives to the sport, but have offended...and paid a price for it...along the way.

My point: Let's protect our children and preserve our morals- but, let's be real too. Just because you have money (and please don't tell me that you don't have money) and have the privilege of riding horses does not give you the right to push away someone who has played a significant role in our industry. Oh right, but many of you do not know these people personally - you've only heard the horror stories..and my, isn't just so damn easy to despise someone you don't even know...please take a moment to think of your brother, sister - anyone close - being in the same situation - bet you would want to ruin their lives, too, right?.

We can educate our children - make them smart about how things are. Lucky them for not having to grow up in a crime-ridden area. And lucky you for your privileged life. Believe it or not many, many people are affected by crime everyday - not just you. We will not stop it by making the people who commit crimes go away. Perhaps working with those who have done wrong will make us all better people in the end. Again, where does passing judgment get us?

And please tell me how banning Paul from judging is going to make your life better? What - you would have won a moral victory? The horse show world and yourself is too good to associate with people who made serious, coonsequential mistakes in their lives? Oh, but crime/deviance is not your problem - is it? You have way too much money and spend way too much of it on your hobby to have to be subjected to something that poor, urban areas have to deal with every waking hour.

The bottomline: Paul's crime was not tolerated, he paid for it, and he continues to pay for it. He makes a contribution to our sport. He is an excellent instructor. While disappointed in the choice he made 10 years ago, I am glad to have had the opportunity to learn from him (and would ride with him today if I were in that area).

And yes, I am a very liberal person. But you know, having seen what I have seen in urban ghettos/projects - seeing family members and their communities accept back EX-offenders who have committed much worser crimes than the ones posted on these boards....I don't know. Some of you people have no idea how good you have it. And I think that is a very sad thing.

I support Paul's participation as a judge for this event.

Policy of Truth
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:01 PM
"So just curious - do the specs for this class in any way mention "horsemanship" or just "equitation" ??? Not that it matters to my moral take on the scene, but it changes the irony quotient..."

LOFF it! Oh, sweet irony....but not so sweet for the horses killed to create the irony http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

Ben and Me
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:14 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I have to ask this question as a person who studies criminal behavior: Do you believe that when a person commits a crime, and is subsequently, and justly, punished by the criminal justice system (as well as other relevent institutions), that he or she should be condemned for life? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Since Mr. Valliere has not completed his sentence, I do not believe that he has yet been "justly" punished by the criminal justice system. When he is up for consideration in 2 years, then I might begin to consider his crimes as being paid for--but until then, it is my feeling that he should follow the rules of the NGB, and act in the spirit of his suspension by steering clear of the horse industry.

Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
-T.S. Eliot

Snowbird
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:15 PM
jlf, you point is understood the problem is he hasn't paid for his crime. He has made more money since he was convicted than he dod before and the CRY you hear is from people who have not broken the law and do not make as much money as he has being a convicted criminal. It was an inconvenience but not a punishment for the innocent animals which had no way to defend themselves.

The real issue is, is punishment intended for rehabilitation or is it revenge? He didn't need rehabilitation and the punishment did not make an effective retribution. There is no closure for those who have lived honest lives taken care of their animals even when they turn out worthless.

If being talented and intelligent is a way to cop a plea then that's fine but don't try to sell it as honest retribution.

Battle Scarred Veteran

Richmond
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:18 PM
jlf- and are those urban communities better for accepting the ex-offenders back? Or perhaps worse.....

bluewatersail
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:21 PM
MOM, you have GOT to be kidding! You seem like a foolish person.

suecross
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:27 PM
He killed horses or a horse for money and hoped that he would get away with it... he didnt...he got caught. You hunter people that support him should be sending alot of your surplus $$$ to the horse rescues. Some of you people will do anything for a ribbon.

fourpaws
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:34 PM
A copy of the e-mail I sent to Stadium Jumping,Inc., with a suggestion that will hopefully satisfy both the letter and the spirit of the law:

I would like to propose that the equitation classic that Paul Valliere is judging be renamed the Roseau Platiere Memorial Equitation Classic, in memory of the horse he had electrocuted. That way, you can still hire him, since technically this is within the rules allowed by our sport, and keep those that see nothing wrong with him judging happy. Yet it would also serve as a gentle reminder to what he did not so long ago, since you seem to have forgotten.
By the way, have you ever seen a horse electrocuted? It's not very pretty.
Sincerely,
Gayle Donner, DVM, DACVS

SED
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:37 PM
Fourpaws -- awesome.

suecross
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:46 PM
I have had a bad day and sitting here reading this I am actually repulsed by you people that justify the cruelty and killing of stupid, dependent commodities that we call horses. " he did his time "I hear again and again. You should be ashamed and shunned. How you could condon any action by a person t hat allowed someone to walk into a stall and hook up some electronic equipment to a poor stupid horse and electricute him is beyond me. You dont love horses....you love ribbons.

poltroon
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:50 PM
Interesting data point:

If you are a licensed professional engineer in California, you will lose your license permanently for committing fraud, even if the fraud isn't related to the practice of engineering. I don't believe there's a hearing process past the criminal justice system.

farfel
Feb. 26, 2004, 07:50 PM
Don't know if Ross Hugi still has his DVM, but he's only too happy to appear on TV shows about the Brach/Chicago horse killings scandals...it was creepy to see him on episodes of City Confidential and Dominick Dunne's show. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

He didn't bring up his role in the whole story, and it wasn't pointed out by the narrator, either. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

ALF
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:02 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CuriousGeorge:
Cathy and Dana Tripp Waters can share the DVMing duties.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And Gord Morris could whine and complain about how all the riders were better back before anyone started listening to him.

Snowbird
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:07 PM
Tolerance is not the same thing as applause and hiring him at a prestigious event to impress juniors with his knowledge is applause. I do not disagree that he is an excellent judge or a knowledgeable horseman but is that enough to justify what he approved and his position as an admitted criminal?

What do we teach juniors with such approval?

Battle Scarred Veteran

playing cards
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:11 PM
Personally, I think it would be a great statement if at least some if not all of the riders would refuse to ride in the class. I am not at WEF so perhaps some of them do protest in such a manner. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

In my opinion, I think it is unethical on the part of the very famous riders who have excellent reputations to not pull out. Why soil themselves by consenting to ride for him???? I know it is a hugely popular class, but nothing would make a greater statement to management that corruption in the sport will not be tolerated. Perhaps it would lead to some change.

I think we need an ethics commission to educate people about what is unacceptable behavior. Anyone that wants professional status under our NGB should have to participate in training and pass a test. Just my humble opionion - I think ethics training works in enough cases to make it worthwhile. Forgive my ignorance if an ethics body already exists - I haven't looked into it.

[This message was edited by playing cards on Feb. 26, 2004 at 11:24 PM.]

jlf
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:25 PM
We tell our juniors how we feel about the matter - and eventually they can decide for themselves. I think our juniors are smart enough to realize that he did something wrong and that some people support him and others clearly don't.

Is judging this Final a violation of his probation/punishment - under the legal terms? If he has already judged a competition, I'm pretty sure it is not (although I haven't read this whole thread, so I'm not sure if there are circumstances stating that he cannot judge it). If this event is not covered under the stipulations he has to live under, then he's eligible to judge it.

And Snowbird - the fact of the matter is that lots of people who commit crimes/have committed crimes make a lot of money - hello corporate America! We live in a capitalistic society and it's bound to happen that people we dislike will make more money than us. I have to admit that I haven't been on the circuit for years and it sounds as though he is doing well considering his status with the USAeq, etc. In the end, it was his life before the conviction and it is still his means of living. He's good at what he does and people will go to him for business, to learn, etc. Is everyone really mad that he is making a lot of money?

Ultimately, he has to live with what he did, and by participating in these types of events he will ultimately be reminded by the people who share the same sentiments as this BB. It seems pretty clear that there is a very negative stigma attached to his name on this BB. Is that true at horse shows too? I am very curious about this since I haven't been around to see it.

While I haven't seen a horse electrocuted, I do know that people can be irrational. In fact, most homicides and violent crimes are irrational (even when it seems as though the person had it all planned out). I think killing a horse under those circumstances is horrible. But in the end, even if I don't completely forgive a person for what they have done, I believe in acceptance. I've worked with kids who have killed people, raped girls, sold drugs to their relatives - horrible things...and their crimes do make me sick, but I still helped them.

And considering that I haven't shown in years, my sentiments cannot be attributed to my "love for ribbons." In fact, I have spent a good part of my life simply working on horse farms (and belive me, it wasn't for the money) and not showing very much. You can accuse me of this or that. I just have a very different perspective and I am not ashamed of my position or any of my thoughts. Perhaps I shouldn't bash anyone else's thoughts since we all have different experiences - which have led us to very different conclusions. We can all learn from each other, even if we don't agree.
Still, I support PV.

CuteHunter
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:27 PM
In response to the comment about Canadian National being a sponsor and the subsequent question regarding what the scandal in Canada is all about- here is what I know- 100 million dollars in government money was funneled through crown corporations while the Liberals were in power (they still are) and that money ended up going straight to the Liberal party itself. Some of Canada's key crown corps. are now being heavily investigated. Im assuming this is the scandal the poster was talking about- hope this clears things up a bit.

In terms of PV judging- it just really seems like waiting out the full 10 years wouldnt have been that bad- I mean it seems liek it would only have been two more years. The image that this says for our sport is that when someone is successful or famous enough, we will turn a blind eye to their "indescretions" even BEFORE they have "fully paid" for their crimes.

* * * * * * * * * *

Portia
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:28 PM
Fourpaws, very well said.

fullmoon fever
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:38 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LLDM:
Do you send your children to summer camp with those folks who only molested a child once, but felt real bad about it later?
SCFarm

A Leg at Each Corner<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, if you lived near Toronto, Canada about 10-15 years ago, you sent your kid to a YMCA horse day-camp that was at the property of a convicted child molester. Hmmmm, same fellow had Jerry Farmer at his place quite often.

(Actually, the child molestation had been going on for many, many years, but victims had been bought off before he was finally convicted.)

Founder of the Olde Farte Clique; Member of the Dented Thigh Clique http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
If it ain't tack shopping, it's a waste of time and money.

Ben and Me
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:45 PM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Is everyone really mad that he is making a lot of money? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't think that any one is mad that he is making a lot of money--They are mad that he is making a lot of money by participating in a sport in which he is suspended. No, he is not breaking any rules--but I believe that is precisely the point that some are trying to drive home--the penalty should be stricter so that he cannot continue to earn a living in this sport, especially since he is still suspended and has not paid his time!

What if a soccer coach was suspended for some similarly heinous crime? In fact, take any sport other than ours! I doubt you'd see them playing the same role in their sport as PV has played in ours. Frankly, I think it is embarassing!

Do I dare
Disturb the universe?
-T.S. Eliot

Hopeful Hunter
Feb. 26, 2004, 08:57 PM
jlf -- FWIW, I'll give your post a serious reply.

If a convicted criminal serves his/her sentence fully, is deemed to be rehabilitated and indicates an understanding of the consequences -- to his/herself and to his/her victim(s) -- then we as a society do need to try to find a way for that individual to be productive IMO. I'd hope that the individual may have gained some wisdom and skills during the time of serving a sentence -- skills which would equip the person to REMOVE his/herself from the environment which led to the initial criminal activity.

BUT...while I do agree and support the convicted criminal becoming productive, I DO NOT in any way endorse that criminal going back to the area in which the crime was committed. For PV, I don't think it's too much to ask him to find work in another field; for KK I believe that asking him to find work that does not involve commenting on or interacting with juniors. Not just to protect the image of our lily-white sport, but as a matter of common sense. Just as I would not expect someone convicted of accounting fraud to return to accountancy, nor someone convicted of drug trafficking charges to return to a drug-infested community and stay clean.

I live three door down from a halfway house. I support the efforts of the organization to help the men (it's a men's house only) get their lives in order. The residents are coming out of the courts -- I do not feel threatened by their presence, despite some neighbors concerns. These are not, however, hardcore criminals, and I would feel threatened if we were hosting a convicted serial rapist, for example.

I agree that we need to find a way for excons to transition back into productive society. But find a way that doesn't put them right back in the thick of what landed them in trouble in the first place! Don't put a rapist in charge of a battered women's shelter; don't put a pedarest in charge of daycare; don't put PV up as a horseshow judge. Is this really so very hard?

Snowbird
Feb. 26, 2004, 09:38 PM
But jlf if we as a society make excuses and tolerate evil deeds then the evil deeds will accelerate. I have no fault to find with PV making a ton of money on the stock market or in advertising or anything else. But he should not be rewarded for what he admitted was a wrong thing to do and caused the life of a helpless horse to be taken that was in his care and custody. What did the horse do wrong? Where is the horse's compensation or excuse?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And Snowbird - the fact of the matter is that lots of people who commit crimes/have committed crimes make a lot of money - hello corporate America! We live in a capitalistic society and it's bound to happen that people we dislike will make more money than us. I have to admit that I haven't been on the circuit for years and it sounds as though he is doing well considering his status with the USAeq, etc. In the end, it was his life before the conviction and it is still his means of living. He's good at what he does and people will go to him for business, to learn, etc. Is everyone really mad that he is making a lot of money? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I'm sorry but I do not find it an acceptable excuse because other people in other industries are equally corrupt and unpunished. The difference is that the horses are innocent victims who cannot defend themselves. I really don't think that if you steal some money that those dollar bills feel any pain even if they're locked in a safety deposit box they don't suffer. Even if you burn them in a bon fire, you suffer the loss the money doesn't suffer any pain.

Insider trading is just paper and I think that such a culprit should certainly not be back after they have been successful beating the system. If a doctor is guilty of malpractice that kills a few people, I don't think he should still be a doctor for people. I think maybe he could use his education to be a lab technician.

Battle Scarred Veteran

MAD
Feb. 27, 2004, 03:55 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We tell our juniors how we feel about the matter - and eventually they can decide for themselves. I think our juniors are smart enough to realize that he did something wrong and that some people support him and others clearly don't.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see it now: the letter writing/campaigns will now be aimed at the juniors because "WE" (?huh, not their parents?) feel one way...

Anne
Feb. 27, 2004, 05:05 AM
"Don't know if Ross Hugi still has his DVM"

A DVM is a degree. You can't take it away once the person has earned it, no more than you can take away someone's high school diploma or bachelor's degree after the fact. You CAN take away their license to practice veterinary medicine.

And Fourpaws, love your letter!

Silk
Feb. 27, 2004, 05:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Joanie's Pass:
I had posted this a while back on the "Lessons with Suspended Trainers", it fits my thoughts after reading this thread as well, though I would broaden that to shows and the general acceptance of show management and others of the behavior that the majority here seem to find disturbing at the least.

If someone trains with a suspended trainer, knowingly, then they are sending the message that what the trainer did was ok, which implies it would be ok to do that again! I am talking about the trainers who have had horses killed for insurance money and/or use drugs (illegal or illegal amounts) on their horses. I could care less about those with payment issues.

Think about it, if you give money to a trainer who killed a horse for insurance money - where did he get the money to kill that horse in the first place? From people just like you, they just did not know it.

The more that people accept this sort of behavior, the easier it is for that trainer (and other trainers) to delude themselves into believing they did nothing wrong. What message does that send to up and coming trainers? What is their "road to success"?

Not a message I would want them to live by, that is for sure!<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Your trainer was suspended and fined for illegal poling at a show a few years backhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

LucianCephus
Feb. 27, 2004, 05:34 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I would like to propose that the equitation classic that Paul Valliere is judging be renamed the Roseau Platiere Memorial Equitation Classic, in memory of the horse he had electrocuted. That way, you can still hire him, since technically this is within the rules allowed by our sport, and keep those that see nothing wrong with him judging happy. Yet it would also serve as a gentle reminder to what he did not so long ago, since you seem to have forgotten.
By the way, have you ever seen a horse electrocuted? It's not very pretty.
Sincerely,
Gayle Donner, DVM, DACVS<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Brilliant, simply brilliant...what a super idea. And if there is to be an ad run in COTH (to which I would gladly contribute, BTW), I would suggest that Fourpaws' text be adopted. Maybe the ad could take the form of an open letter to Gene Mische?

Policy of Truth
Feb. 27, 2004, 05:54 AM
Erin (or other moderators), would the Chronicle allow us to run a protest ad? LD and I were talking about this and wondered if that would be allowed by the staff, seeing as there have been ads and articles about PV...can you let us know, so we can proceed if it would be ok?

budman
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:10 AM
jlf, I am nearly speechless. While I have had a privileged life, I am not wealthy nor am I unknowing, uncaring, etc. Of course I don't believe, nor do the other posters here, that we should lock someone up and throw away the key because they committed a crime. However, this man was CONVICTED of killing a horse for money! He has not even served out the time of his initial suspension!

And yes, I for one hope that he is neverreinstated. Here's how my sense of fairness works: you're convicted of killing a horse, you never get to own, handle, train, go near horses again. Ever. You go make your living in some other business.

Now, with my flame suit on, I will make 2 more statements. First, don't anyone accuse me of being holier-than-thou. I'm not. I've made a lot of mistakes in my life, and I'm very tolerant of others, but not in this instance. I don't think he should be locked up forever or anything, but I don't think he should be in the horse business anymore, having demonstrated such a profound lack of...I can't even find the word.

And secondly, I am really tired of people posting sweeping comments during which they state "I haven't read this whole thread, but..." You know what, read the whole thing or don't reply. Period. Especially when you're making rude generalizations about other posters whose comments you couldn't bother to read.

I realize this may be too heated of a reply. But I'm quite upset.

"There are friends and faces that may be forgotten, but there are horses that never will be." Andy Adams
Gold Chips (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394805)
Blondie (http://www.marylandponybreeders.org/item.jhtml?UCIDs=546415%7C560127&PRID=394809)

SCEqQueen
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:24 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We tell our juniors how we feel about the matter - and eventually they can decide for themselves. I think our juniors are smart enough to realize that he did something wrong and that some people support him and others clearly don't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just wanted to say that I follow these conversations about all of the people who were involved with he horse scandals and I read the books, too. I am a junior, and by reading what you all write and by following these threads, I am learning. You are making a difference with the juniors and I just thought I would tell you all that, if it makes any difference.

~Seventh Heaven
~Luck of the Irish
~Occasionally Blue
~Rigaletto

*Proud member of the Dutch Warmblood Clique!*

Quinn
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:25 AM
jlf~ IRRATIONAL??? According to a Professional, fourpaws, the process of electrocution is not pretty. That aside, and of no relevance in my opinion is the fact this person took a horse's life to gain monetarily from it. Should we forgive this person? That's up to each individual. Should we EVER allow this person to have ANYTHING to do with horses? NEVER. Budman, I'm with you.

In my opinion, in very simple terms, life is not a dress rehearsal. Who we choose to align ourselves with forms our own character. I choose to align myself with those who HAVE CHARACTER.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

NinaL aka Chrissy
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:25 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by playing cards:
Personally, I think it would be a great statement if at least some if not all of the riders would refuse to ride in the class. I am not at WEF so perhaps some of them do protest in such a manner. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

In my opinion, I think it is unethical on the part of the very famous riders who have excellent reputations to not pull out. Why soil themselves by consenting to ride for him???? I know it is a hugely popular class, but nothing would make a greater statement to management that corruption in the sport will not be tolerated. Perhaps it would lead to some change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, given the fact that many people knew what was going on (insurance fraud and horse killings) and chose to turn their heads and pretend that it did not exist; and given the fact that there are more than a few people out there who participated in the fraud and got off scott free due to the statute of limitations; it would be more than a little hypocritical for them to protest Valliere's assignment on ethical reasons.

Ya know, aiding and abetting and all that good stuff.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think we need an ethics commission to educate people about what is unacceptable behavior. Anyone that wants professional status under our NGB should have to participate in training and pass a test. Just my humble opionion - I think ethics training works in enough cases to make it worthwhile. Forgive my ignorance if an ethics body already exists - I haven't looked into it.

[This message was edited by playing cards on Feb. 26, 2004 at 11:24 PM.]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is an idea that would work and would be a valid way to keep someone who is suspended from making a living inside the industry.

But you have to be careful when you are a private organization making rules for your own organization. IIRC, your rules will be upheld as long as your rules don't trample on a person's rights in the eyes of the government.

Which is why you can't run a private club and discriminate against a particular sex or race.

So, USEF nee' AHSA is well within their rights to tell someone that you can't play on our playground. But, if they decide that said person cannot play on someone else's playground or can never again make their living training horses, selling horses, et al; well, then they are starting to tread on an individual's rights to make a living in any legal manner. You are entering a gray area here and I don't think that this is an area where I want the NGB to tread.

Nina

Janet
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
Erin (or other moderators), would the Chronicle allow us to run a protest ad? LD and I were talking about this and wondered if that would be allowed by the staff, seeing as there have been ads and articles about PV...can you let us know, so we can proceed if it would be ok?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
And if it is allowed, the simple statement: "We propose that the Equus Medal be renamed the Roseau Platiere Memorial Equitation Classic" would certainly get attention. Those who know would understand. Hopefully thowe that don't know would ask someone.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

NinaL aka Chrissy
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:30 AM
Electrocution

Okay, I just have to say it.

How many of you who are outraged that horses were electrocuted support the death penalty for people and believe in "letting someone fry"?

If so, please tell me the difference. Because I just don't see it.

A living being is a living being no matter how heinous the crime that was committed.

Nina

Quinn
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:35 AM
Nina, I'll just offer my opinion. We are talking about two entirely different issues here. Yes, the end result is the same but what got you there is completely different.

Scenario #1 - horse electrocution. No judge, no jury, no reprehensible crime committed, no chance to defend self. Strictly committed for personal gain.

Scenario #2 - capital punishment. Faced a judge, jury of his peers, found guilty of a crime punishable by death.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

Janet
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:35 AM
Just for the record, I do NOT support ther death penalty.

But there is also a difference between the death penalty for someone who has been convicted of a crime, and killing a horse for financial gain.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Duffy
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:38 AM
Brilliant, Fourpaws! Thank you!

As far as the Eq riders protesting by not participating...I wouldn't hold your breath. PV was listed as trainer or co-trainer for too many of them last year. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"B***h in training"

On Second Thought
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by playing cards:
I think we need an ethics commission to educate people about what is unacceptable behavior. Anyone that wants professional status under our NGB should have to participate in training and pass a test. Just my humble opionion - I think ethics training works in enough cases to make it worthwhile. Forgive my ignorance if an ethics body already exists - I haven't looked into it.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I'm thinking the kindof people who electrocute horses aren't really losing sleep about what the NGB considers "Unacceptable Behavior", and I don't think a class on Goofus and Gallant (http://www.highlightskids.com/guestarea/h3gStorySoup/GoofusandGallant/h1intro.asp) is going to make a difference in the lives of the people who would really need it.

I don't think you can teach ethics to adults. You've either got your sh*t together or you don't.

--The difference between genius and stupidity is; genius has its limits.

wishful thinking
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:49 AM
A PARENT'S perspective. These are jrs. showing in this division I assume. MOMS, DADS, set an example for you CHILDREN. Do not condone the continued career of someone who is widely known as and referred to as a "horse killer." Teach your children well. Don't PAY for them to be under such a person's guidance. Don't PAY for them to enter classes that are judged by him. Have some MORALS as PARENTS!!!! I would never let my daughter train with someone or be in the vicinity of someone I KNEW had a history of being abusive towards animals or people in any way. I realize I have the wool pulled over my eyes in many ways and much goes on behind my back but this particular issue is widely known. Be the grown up who sets the example. Its OK to say NO!!!!! Open your eyes and close your wallets to this kind of showmanship.

War Admiral
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:49 AM
Great idea, LucianCephus (nice one, Fourpaws). Count me in.

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

NinaL aka Chrissy
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:52 AM
I see your points, Janet and Quinn, and I understand the difference in between committing a crime and being the victim of a crime. However, I have a hard time with people who object to the cruelty of electrocution of a victim who also support the cruelty of electrocuting a perpetrator.

It is an area that is very black and white in my mind.

Nina

SGray
Feb. 27, 2004, 06:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
Brilliant, Fourpaws! Thank you!

As far as the Eq riders protesting by not participating...I wouldn't hold your breath. PV was listed as trainer or co-trainer for too many of them last year. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"_B***h in training_"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is there a list that I could see of those?

"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it," --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.

arnika
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:03 AM
NinaL, I don't know if this will make it any more acceptable but most if not all states no longer use electrocution. I believe they have gone to lethal injection as a more humane method.

LucianCephus, War Admiral sounds good to me.

SGray, you might try looking on the thread from last year. I don't know if the names were brought up or not.

Erin
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:03 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by pacificsolo:
Erin (or other moderators), would the Chronicle allow us to run a protest ad? LD and I were talking about this and wondered if that would be allowed by the staff, seeing as there have been ads and articles about PV...can you let us know, so we can proceed if it would be ok?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well, I'd ask them directly before you actually decide to go ahead with it... they have the option to turn down any ad. But they ran that one by the anti-approved helmet people a year or two back, so I don't think they have a policy against protest ads.

Duffy
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:11 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SGray:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
Brilliant, Fourpaws! Thank you!

As far as the Eq riders protesting by not participating...I wouldn't hold your breath. PV was listed as trainer or co-trainer for too many of them last year. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

"_B***h in training_"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is there a list that I could see of those?

"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it," --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I believe it's on this thread: (If someone can shorten the link - I'm a computer idiot when it comes to this kind of stuff. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

It was on the "WEF Equitation Classic" from last year - found it doing a search for "Paul Valliere"...

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums?a=tpc&s=6656094911&f=7076024331&m=1356034&r=9976045#9976045

"B***h in training"

nelson
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:13 AM
Here, here Fourpaws! Very well said.

I am curious, has anyone who sent an email to SJI gotten any kind of a response? Please post if you do. Thanks.

Janet
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:13 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> These are jrs. showing in this division I assume. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Actually, not. This is a special class for riders who have "represented the country" (e.g., Olympics, PanAm, World Cup), so they are all over 18.

Janet
chief feeder and mucker for Music, Spy, Belle, and Brain

Silk
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:23 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by NinaL aka Chrissy:
_Electrocution_

Okay, I just have to say it.

How many of you who are outraged that horses were electrocuted support the death penalty for people and believe in "letting someone fry"?

If so, please tell me the difference. Because I just don't see it.

A living being is a living being no matter how heinous the crime that was committed.

Nina<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How many of you eat meat? yes, folks....hamburger is made from electrocuted cows, by humans reaping monetary rewards (profit). Cattle farmers make a pretty penny on every pound.

Your saddles are made of leather. Do you think your saddle cows died a "natural" death?

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

War Admiral
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:25 AM
In terms of ad deadlines/publication dates, I believe the event will already be over by the time any ad is run. I still support the idea of doing it, but thought I should point that out. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

______________

"Those who use horses just for the business are crass, classless horsemen."
--George Morris

Heidi
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:27 AM
Yeah, Silk, and by your logic, Rouseau Platiere was bred for electrocution. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Magnolia
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:29 AM
I'm all for re-integrating repentant criminals into society - it's a good idea. But really, are we going to elect Harry Homocide or Rany Rapist to public offices? Are we going to let them be in the spotlight with the finest Americans?

Yeah, sure, in 10 years, let PV judge some shows and train some clients. But, really, if I was a horseman who had represented the sport at it's highest level in an honorable way, it would be an absolute insult to be judged by this man. I can rattle off many icons of horse sports who have fairly and honestly gotten where they were. Can we not find one of them who would be willing to judge?

And is PV that great of a horseman? I wonder - a horse doesn't perform well and you kill it? How about some retraining? Or finding a better career? I've seen some rank horses become really nice with some work and time. How many people here had horses that in their first year or 2 of showing were idiots that became nice? Or, find a trainer who can get the horse to perform - they are out there..... Or, instead of killing the poor horse, slip it some drugs... heck, other people do.

He commited multiple crimes - cruelty to animals and fraud as a short cut to good training.... and he should judge someone elses riding ability?

And should he ever judge? Judging, to me, should be a pinnacle of a career - judges should be both respected and respectable. Can a criminal ever get there?

And how does this make us look as a sport? What if that awful woman who starved the quarter horses judged at QH Congress in 10 years? What would we say about that?

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Silk
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:41 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Heidi:
Yeah, Silk, and by your logic, Rouseau Platiere was bred for electrocution. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And your point is...? What difference does it make what she was bred for? The ultimate result is the same. Dead is dead. We all take part in killing and/or using the dead. We are consumers. Plants are producers. We kill. We all are responsible for the death of other living things.

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

wanderlust
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
And is PV that great of a horseman? I wonder - a horse doesn't perform well and you kill it? How about some retraining? Or finding a better career? &lt;snip&gt;..... Or, instead of killing the poor horse, slip it some drugs... heck, other people do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Amen, Magnolia. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

caffeinated
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:53 AM
Silk- this isn't a thread about slaughter or killing animals. It's about letting someone who is suspended from participating in shows judge on a technicality.

Electrocuting a horse for the purpose of fraud is entirely different and apart from the slaughter issue, in part because it is illegal.

What bothers people most about this is that he's suspended and been barred from show grounds, but has basically been circumventing the rules of his suspension for years and is now being given an honor to boot.

This has nothing to do with eating meat, using leather, or supporting the death penalty. It has everything to do with following the rules and accepting punishment, as well as the fact that the rich and mighty seem to think what he did was not that bad, so we'll just get around the rule of the governing body by honoring the guy on a "non recognized" day.

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

Vandy
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:57 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:
And your point is...? What difference does it make what she was bred for? The ultimate result is the same. Dead is dead. We all take part in killing and/or using the dead. We are consumers. Plants are producers. We kill. We all are responsible for the death of other living things.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

In my mind, PV having a horse electrocuted for insurance profit is very different than if he'd had a horse put down after it foundered painfully...or a plant being killed as you suggested above http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Yes, all dead, but can't we agree that the circumstances are a bit varied?

And by the way Silk, I asked you somewhere way back in this thread what you knew about PV's motives that I and the others on this board don't? I am still waiting to hear from you about PV's "good" reasons for doing this that had "nothing to do with money".

lauriep
Feb. 27, 2004, 07:59 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by caffeinated:
Silk- this isn't a thread about slaughter or killing animals. It's about letting someone who is suspended from participating in shows judge on a technicality.

Electrocuting a horse for the purpose of fraud is entirely different and apart from the slaughter issue, in part because it is illegal.

What bothers people most about this is that he's suspended and been barred from show grounds, but has basically been circumventing the rules of his suspension for years and is now being given an honor to boot.

This has nothing to do with eating meat, using leather, or supporting the death penalty. It has everything to do with following the rules and accepting punishment, as well as the fact that the rich and mighty seem to think what he did was not that bad, so we'll just get around the rule of the governing body by honoring the guy on a "non recognized" day.

_____________________________
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As has been stated here, repeatedly, NO HE HAS NOT CIRCUMVENTED THE RULES. The rules AND HIS SUSPENSION ONLY APPLY ON THE SHOWGROUNDS. Stop confusing everyone with misstatements such as this. He is NOT prevented, in any way, from doing whatever he wants with horses OFF THE SHOWGROUNDS.

If you don't feel the punishments are strong enough, then change them. But for the cases already heard, and ruled on, PV is following the constraints of his sentence. That is the way it is.

Laurie

caffeinated
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:07 AM
OK, let me re-state- the problem here is not just about killing an animal but that people feel his involvement is against the spirit of his punishment or his punishment was not strong enough

*grin*

better?

because that *is* what the argument is about, really. All I was saying is that arguments about animal slaughter really didn't have much of a place in the discussion

_____________________________
"It takes a whole lot of testosterone to wear a beret and not look fruity"
**

Uberraschung
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:09 AM
I think Silk's point (correct me if I'm wrong) is that it is not illegal to electrocute an animal and kill it, as evidenced by the slaughter industry. It is illegal to defraud an insurance company. PV was arrested for insurance fraud, not "horse killing".

I tend to think there are a lot worse ways to go other than electrocution...what those people in Chicago did to that poor Streetwise horse with a crowbar and some others (suffocation with bags over the head, ping pong balls) come to mind. Animals are routinely killed using anal electrocution (fur minks for example), along with pigs who I believe are electrically stunned before slaughter. Are cows electrically stunned? I'd think they'd get the humane killer like horses do...

I'm no vet, but I'd think that the animals wouldn't even know what hit them before their heart would stop with electrocution. Any vets have input on this? I'm interested to know.

edited for clarity

[This message was edited by Uberraschung on Feb. 27, 2004 at 11:19 AM.]

lauriep
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:11 AM
*Better!* http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Laurie

Silk
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:12 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>


or a plant being killed as you suggested above http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Yes, all dead, but can't we agree that the circumstances are a bit varied?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I never equated killing an animal with killing a plant. My point was that every living think kills, except for plants because they are *producers*. By definition, everything else is a "consumer".


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
And by the way Silk, I asked you somewhere way back in this thread what you knew about PV's motives that I and the others on this board don't? I am still waiting to hear from you about PV's "good" reasons for doing this that had "nothing to do with money".<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I dont "know" anything. I am just saying that unless you know all of the facts (not just the "published" facts, you really cant make a judgement. If someone gave me the choice of my family's life or that of a horse, regardless of how much I love horses, I would sacrifice a horse to save, say, my mother.

Again, I am not "in the know". I am just saying that PV's case was a one-time occurance. Completely out of the ordinary for this particular individual. He had nothing to gain, and everything to lose. Why would he do it? For the money? The horse wasnt even his....he had purchased it for a client, if I remember correctly.

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

Vandy
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:14 AM
Uberraschung -
Not to get too off-topic but...Check out the recent threads on horse slaughter. "Humane" slaughter may not be exactly what you imagine.

Uberraschung
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:18 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vandy:
Uberraschung -
Not to get too off-topic but...Check out the recent threads on horse slaughter. "Humane" slaughter may not be exactly what you imagine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Humane killer is just a term for the device...note I never called slaughter humane. I can't imagine dying can ever not hurt, unless maybe one takes too many percosets http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Vandy
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:19 AM
Silk, thanks for clarifying. I only wish there was some acceptable reason for PV to have done what he did - and believe me as someone who trained with him and truly worshipped the ground that he walked on - I've thought a lot about what that reason could be. Sadly, I haven't come up with anything. You can play devil's advocate and imagine a scenario where he was forced to do this to protect his family or something - but I don't see it. Not in this situation.

Silk
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:21 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Vandy:
Uberraschung -
Not to get too off-topic but...Check out the recent threads on horse slaughter. "Humane" slaughter may not be exactly what you imagine.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. Death is not pretty. Some ways are better than others, though. What PV did was not excusable. I am not defending his actions. I am however, defending him as a person. He did it. He is paying for it. Move on. Decide if you are most angry about what he did, or the fact that he has managed to be successful despite the restrictions.

He is not the most despicable being in the horse world, as many are suggesting. Except fpor that one incedent, he has played by the rules and has created many others who play by the rules. Many of you on the h/j circuit have unknowingly been involed with him. You would nopt believe how many horses he has had a hand in buying/selling. You may not even know if a horse you won has at one time, come through his barn http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

austinpony
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:24 AM
I've been reading in this thread and others lots of accusations thrown around. One BB'er said basically "if you weren't there, then you don't know."

Well, I was there. I had a barn in the Chicago area in the late '80's and it was a hair-raising experience. I have been at horseshows standing next to Tommy Burns & Robert Cheska and others involved and convicted in the scandal. I am happy to tell all of you that I helped put a couple of them in jail. I have heard the words out of their own mouths about some of the killings. Heard them joke about it. Heard them describe how the horses died.

No one put a "gun to PV's head." No one forced him to make a "snap decision". The process of killing that horse was thought about, planned, phone calls were made, money was sent and a date to kill her was made. He could have called it off, changed his mind - BUT he didn't. He cold-bloodedly arranged for the horse to be killed over a period of weeks.

And, yes there are others who didn't get caught. The FBI tried, but killing horses when you have a vet in your pocket who certified the deaths as "natural" makes getting evidence very difficult particularly when the bodies have been rendered or burned.

Understand all you who would defend these guys that they killed the horses for very simple reasons: greed and the inability to admit they made a mistake. It was easier to kill the animals then try and sell them. It was just easier.

Tommy Burns was very open about what he was doing and for whom. He joked about some of the horses that didn't die quickly. Words like "yeah, that one jerked around for awhile."

Robert Cheska even had an older retiree killed because he needed the stall for a new client coming in on full training board.

Next time any of you want to defend PV or any of the other horse killers, go down to the barn and look at your horse calming chewing hay or just casting those big sweet eyes at you and think about what kind of person hires someone (or does it themselves) to take an electrical cord and attach one part of it to a horse's nostril with an alligator clip, the other end to the horses anus also with a harsh clip and plug the cord in. Then stands back and watches the horse writhe in agony.

If you still can't get the picture, go rent "Green Mile" and watch the scene where the sadistic guard doesn't set up the equipment properly. Then put your horse in the picture.

There's no excuse. Paul may be a great trainer, but he should stay away from horses until his term is served. And, clients should go elsewhere.

There is rehabilitation, but it is long in coming.

And, Silk you are a blazing idiot.

Windsor
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:28 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:Except fpor that one incedent, he has played by the rules and has created many others who play by the rules.
**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt; (http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)

Isn't this kind of like saying "John Doe is a swell guy--aside from that rape he committed a few years back or that child molestation conviction, he's a jolly good fellow!" When you're talking about a crime this heinous, ONE instance is one way too effing many.

[This message was edited by Windsor on Feb. 27, 2004 at 12:01 PM.]

MAD
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:31 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
I'm all for re-integrating repentant criminals into society - it's a good idea. But really, are we going to elect Harry Homocide or Rany Rapist to public offices? Are we going to let them be in the spotlight with the finest Americans? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now Magnolia, please do not let this get in the way of us meeting and please do not think this is a statement of what I may think of PV. I am, again, not publicly commenting on my feelings about him.

I am only reminding everyone of a certain Washington, DC mayor that was videotaped using crack cocaine and subsequently served six months in prison on a drug conviction. Wasn't he re-elected after all of his "shenanigans"? Personally, I think being Mayor of a large city is a lot more important and powerful - in the big scheme of what we call life - than judging one class.

nails
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:32 AM
Austinpony-very well said.

Fluffernutter-you are a perfect example of what is wrong with all of this-because PV sold your horse for a huge amount of money-whatever he did is ok as long as you get paid $$$$$$$$$

MOM/SILK and others who defend this kind of behavior-I say bend over-insert medal clip/rod and plug in!!!!

SGray
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:33 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Duffy:
As far as the Eq riders protesting by not participating...I wouldn't hold your breath. PV was listed as trainer or co-trainer for too many of them last year. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif
"<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

is there a list that I could see of those?
[/QUOTE]

I believe it's on this thread:
QUOTE]

thanks Duffy -- certainly nice to see that they didn't place in the top ten either

"That lowdown scoundrel deserves to be kicked to death by a jackass, and I'm just the one to do it," --Texas congressional candidate John F. Parker.

Nikki^
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:35 AM
Once again I'm late to the party.

Why do people still train/associate themselves with PV even though he was convitived of Killing horses for Insurance money?

Tar and feather party anybody? I have the feathers!

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

bitsy
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:36 AM
I think it comes down to this - no he is not breaking any rules of his suspension I suppose nor is Jerry Farmer. They have just found loopholes around it and gone for it. Why is anyone surprised. I'm not. I am however, surprised about the Equus juding. I really thought it meant they were not allowed on the showgrounds period - not just during show days. There always seems to be a loophole come up somewhere - so we should work toward getting that changed if that is truly the case. What irritates me is that there are so many good judges out there - why would SJ look the other way on this. It is their showgrounds and maybe they were not aware of who the judges were til after the fact, but knowingly not making a change does not speak well for SJ and its officers. Judges are replaced at the last minute all the time for a lot of reasons - schedules, travel, conflict of interest etc. The right thing to do would be to ask Equus to find a replacement and try to repair some of the damage done to the reputation of SJ and its officers by releasing a press release stating they intend to do so and that it is the right thing to. At the very least acknowledge the fact that people are not happy with this. And yes, I have shown at WEP and will probably continue to do so, however, I have changed my opinion of SJ and its officers and don't think they have the integrity I once did. I don't know who does their public relations - but, someone needs to start doing some repairs !!!

Quinn
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:39 AM
Silk, PV may NOT be the most despicable human being. However, what he did IS the most despicable thing conceivable in the horse world. If you can honestly say otherwise, then I must concur with comments made earlier by austinpony. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

creseida
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:40 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:
My point was that every living think kills, except for plants because they are *producers*. By definition, everything else is a "consumer". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In this case, the horse was not consumed. There was no end purpose for the by-product (the dead horse) except to go to the insurance company collect a cheque.

This isn't like the fox going into the hen house to kill dinner. This was motivated PURELY by greed and ego. Paul Valliere told the owners of this horse that he was worth X-amount of dollars (an obscene figure). Because of PV's name, the value he placed upon this animal's head became the "appraised value" for insurance purposes. When the horse failed to perform as PV claimed it would, the horse was no longer worth what PV said, Big Name or not. The only way to recoup the money PV claimed the animal was worth was via "salvage"...an insurance claim. So, the horse was summarily electrocuted (having been struck by lightning myself I can tell you it f***ing hurts) all because he didn't perform the way Paul said he should.

Naturally Paul could not just say, "This is an animal and, in spite of the training it received, it simply didn't measure up as I hoped". He had to protect his rep and say, "Sorry, your valuable animal suffered an unfortunate accident. While you no longer have the animal, you can collect a nice cheque from the insurance company to make you feel better".

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I dont "know" anything. I am just saying that unless you know all of the facts (not just the "published" facts, you really cant make a judgement. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't, but a judge and jury can..and did. He was guilty of insurance fraud for killing an animal to collect money. An animal he himself appraised for an amount in excess of what the animal was worth.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>If someone gave me the choice of my family's life or that of a horse, regardless of how much I love horses, I would sacrifice a horse to save, say, my mother<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Too bad that wasn't the case. There was no choosing between the horse dying or a human dying. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif The choice was admit a mistake (over-valuing a horse that failed to perform) or covering up the fact that the horse would never perform to its perceived potential. Paul chose the latter rather than simply say, "I was wrong in my initial appraisal of this animal."

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Again, I am not "in the know". I am just saying that PV's case was a one-time occurance. Completely out of the ordinary for this particular individual. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you are not "in the know" how can you say this? How do you know (or not) that he hadn't already gotten away with this before? Or that if he hadn't been caught, he'd not have done it again? Easy money... To come up with such a heinous scheme, I hardly think brutal acts would be out of the ordinary for him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>He had nothing to gain, and everything to lose. Why would he do it? For the money? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, for the money. To keep the client he bamboozled happy and coming back for more. And to try not to lose a reputation as someone who can pick a $$ horse and have it live up to his expectations.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The horse wasnt even his....he had purchased it for a client, if I remember correctly..<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> That is right, and rather than say, "Sorry, I had you pay too much for this horse and he didn't work out. That's the risk you take with horses", he figured he could keep this Big $$ client happy by at least getting him his money back on the "dud".

~&lt;&gt;~ COTHBB Leather Care Guru~&lt;&gt;~
~Member of the *Horse Vans* clique~

"Learn the rules so you may break them effectively"~Dalai Lama

arnika
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:43 AM
nelson, just to let you know, it's been 24 hours and no, there's been no reply or acknowledgement from Stadium Jumping Inc.

And MAD, personally I thought that the citizens of Washington D.C. that voted for Marion Berry had a screw loose as well.

Fluffernutter
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:45 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by Fluffernutter:
I sent PV my $1,000,000 GP jumper and he sold him for $350!

In all seriousness people...If this thread were about any other trainer it would be considered inappropriate to be using these specific examples, right? Shouldn't we maybe stick to slamming PV for the one crime for which he was tried and convicted? There should be enough to discuss there...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Originally posted by nails:
Fluffernutter-you are a perfect example of what is wrong with all of this-because PV sold your horse for a huge amount of money-whatever he did is ok as long as you get paid $$$$$$$$$
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Nails - insert tongue in cheek and re-read for comprehension por favor!

shade
Feb. 27, 2004, 08:49 AM
hey Silk how do you know he has played by the rules EXCEPT for this one incidence??? And personally I consider it not an incident but a truly horrendous act that he DID NOT HAVE TO PARTICIPATE IN but chose of his own volition to do so...yeah maybe he produced some winners big deal...what means did he use to achieve these wins..every wonder about that.

Pocket Pony
Feb. 27, 2004, 09:07 AM
I'd like to know, as a side note, what happened to the client, for whom he killed the horse? Did the client know? Was he/she in on it? Did he/she collect the blood money? What did he/she do with the money? If he/she wasn't in on it, how did he/she find out, and what did he/she do about it afterwards?

"Both rider and horse must enjoy the work. This is the essence of success" - Reiner Klimke

MBS
Feb. 27, 2004, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Again, I am not "in the know". I am just saying that PV's case was a one-time occurance. Completely out of the ordinary for this particular individual. He had nothing to gain, and everything to lose. Why would he do it? For the money? The horse wasnt even his....he had purchased it for a client, if I remember correctly.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And you Know this HOW? This stuff was going on a LONG time before most of these people got caught.

I remember seeing "the sandman" come to Tampa one year and 3 horses dying at that show. This was quite a few years before Anyone was caught.

Ghazzu
Feb. 27, 2004, 09:29 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Silk:

How many of you eat meat? yes, folks....hamburger is made from electrocuted cows, by humans reaping monetary rewards (profit). Cattle farmers make a pretty penny on every pound.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not.
Captive bolt.
And that is done legally, with no intent to defraud.
Cattle farmers make relatively little money,BTW.
Most of it goes to the middleman. Kinad like the multiple commission situation in the hrse world, in some ways.

And you know what? If Paul had killed that horse himself and eaten it because he was hungry, I wouldn't mind.

Unashamed member of the Arab clique...just settin' on the Group W bench.

shade
Feb. 27, 2004, 09:33 AM
You're right MBStark..I remember seeing the sandman at shows in the mid 80's..sadly this has been going on for yrs and sadly probably still is..

poltroon
Feb. 27, 2004, 09:35 AM
We always talk about the motivation for these acts as being money, but it's valuable to remember that in many of these cases it seemed to be more about embarrassment than about actually needing the money.

People talk about impressionable juniors: perhaps the most important lesson to learn is that being honest and open with ordinary mistakes (ie, the horse is not a good match) is painful but always better than trying to cover it up.

Magnolia
Feb. 27, 2004, 09:47 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now Magnolia, please do not let this get in the way of us meeting and please do not think this is a statement of what I may think of PV. I am, again, not publicly commenting on my feelings about him.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drug use is illness, not a crime, IMO a more forgivable action then having a horse killed. And I've had bigger disagreements MAD.... so I'm still eager to show you around Charlotte horsey world.

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

Quinn
Feb. 27, 2004, 09:48 AM
MBStark & Shade a question. Call me a naive Canadian but are you telling me you knew who the "Sandman" was back then and what his mission was?

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

Merry
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:00 AM
Quinn, I can tell you I never saw the Sandman, but once-- and only once-- I heard his name came up at an A show out here. I would venture to guess it was the mid-to-late 80's, based on the circumstances. We'd sold a horse we'd raised to a person who invited us to come watch the horse compete in a hunter classic. This new owner was with a BNT and enjoyed rubbing elbows with who she perceived were the movers and shakers on the A circuit.

Anyhoo, this gal says rather nonchalantly that her BNT told her, "The Sandman's on the showgrounds, so that means some horse is going to die soon."

Do you know how sometimes something is said to you that goes in one ear and out the other because the whole concept sounds so foreign and out of your range of experience that it seems nonsensical? That's how the comment struck me. This gal was such a gossip queen that I dismissed it as more of her ramblings. I had no clue what the implications were until the whole scandal came out.

Quinn
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:10 AM
Thank you Merry. I must admit that truly makes my blood run cold. There's nothing more I can say. As I get older (still a bit younger than you) I should become more insulated to these things. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

MBS
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:10 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quinn:
MBStark & Shade a question. Call me a naive Canadian but are you telling me you knew who the "Sandman" was back then and what his mission was?
~<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I HONESTLY didn't know all the details. I was 20 years old working for Leslie Burr and I LOVED the horses I took care of but there were many rumours about this guy Tommy Burns aka The Sandman. I was horrified when those "rumours" turned out to be true and I remembered that 3 horses at Tampa (if I remember correctly) died of "Colic" in their stalls that year and he was seen at the horse show.

Believe me IF I knew what was going on I would be shouting about it to EVERYONE and ANYONE that would listen. I was not much different about keeping my views to myself then I am Now!!

shade
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:14 AM
Quinn, I didn't know he was the sandman and what his mission was until after it all came out..I just remember seeing him at the shows and this was in the mid 80's..if I had ever known I would have been screaming bloody murder to everyone about him but sadly I didn't know until after the fact..

Quinn
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:15 AM
MB Stark and shade, thank you.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

LucianCephus
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:27 AM
Um, guys...the horse belonged to PV...that's a matter of public record. (Also explains why I never believed his claim that someone held a gun to his head...why would someone force him to kill his own horse?!?)

NinaL aka Chrissy
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:30 AM
Excellent point Quinn. The fact is that there were a lot of people who knew what was going on but never said a thing. I think a lot of the coverup was motivated by fear - both personal (lets face it - many of the people involved were not at the upper strata of social consciousness) and professional (might not be able to sell that horse after blowing the whistle).

Oh, and let me say now that, personally, the whole thing was a terrible shock that literally left me sick to my stomach. In all the years I showed I never heard anything about this until the story broke. I guess we were [blissfully] sheltered.

It is a horrible, black eye on the horse industry. Employing those involved in high profile positions like judging a prestigious event just serves to serve the whole thing up to public scrutiny once again. Not that this is all bad - at least those that are ignorant of the facts are now "in the know".

Of course, if I were a member of SJI I might not be all that pleased with the renewal of the scrutiny.

Frankly, I can think of better ways for those involved to show "rehabilitation" than officiating at a non-sanctioned event and using a radio to circumvent the suspension. Indeed, if I were on the panel that was to consider an application for reinstatement, grandstanding gestures like this and the ads in the Chronicle would make me less favorably inclined than the performance of truly altruistic gestures like donating one's time to a humane organization or a rescue group.

On the other hand, I think it is possible for any of these people to regret and want to atone for their actions. I am not privy to their private fears and concerns so I have no way of knowing what their attitude is to their prior deeds.

Nina

RugBug
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:35 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by magnolia:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Now Magnolia, please do not let this get in the way of us meeting and please do not think this is a statement of what I may think of PV. I am, again, not publicly commenting on my feelings about him.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drug use is illness, not a crime, IMO a more forgivable action then having a horse killed. And I've had bigger disagreements MAD.... so I'm still eager to show you around Charlotte horsey world.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Drug use is a crime. It is not an illness...you may possibly convince me that it is a crime that turns into the illness of addiction, but that's it. It is a criminal choice..just as PV made a criminal choice.

It's is amazing to me that everyone seems to know PV's motivation. austinpony seems to know because s/he overheard conversations of two other people involved. Well that must mean PV had the exact same motivation.

On Second Thought says: "I'm thinking the kindof people who electrocute horses aren't really losing sleep about what the NGB considers "Unacceptable Behavior", ". Gosh, guess s/he can read people's minds as well.

I am not condoning anyone's behavior, but just wondering at how all these people seem to know exactly why PV did what he did.

And I really wish I had my book (Hot Blood) with me because I'm want to check some facts. I seem to remember that PV actually owned RP and it's bugging me that I can't recall for sure.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

holy smoke
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:38 AM
I thought George Lindeman owned the horse.

Silk
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:48 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LucianCephus:
Um, guys...the horse belonged to PV...that's a matter of public record. (Also explains why I never believed his claim that someone held a gun to his head...why would someone force him to kill his own horse?!?)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Are you sure it was his horse? I was always told otherwise. Like I said, I dont "know" anything...just what I have been told. I repeat: I don NOT support wht he did. I do, however, believe in giving people second chances.

**Here is the Uber-Pony 1:** http://www.equinesitegallery.com/VBG/LgSmokeyHead.jpg

bigbay
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:51 AM
Roseau Platiere was owned by PV. Charisma was owned by Sloan Lindemann (George's sister). Both electrocuted by Tommy Burns.

"The acoustics at Tanglewood in Lenox, MA, are so good that when Bob Dylan plays here you can understand every word he sings." -Garrison Keillor

(edited 'cause I'm dsylexic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif)

BLBGP
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:54 AM
Are there any pictures of Rosiere Plateau or the others?

Policy of Truth
Feb. 27, 2004, 10:59 AM
Ok, Anyone know if it IS too late to run the protest ad before the actual event?

For those that are interested, unless someone else wants to, I'd be glad to head up this project...I would like fourpaws permission to use his/her letter...and if there is a pic of the mare, that would be great as well.

We could still run the ad w/o having to do it before the show, though it would be better if we're trying to discourage participation. I'd still be willing to run a protest ad, so that MAYBE people who aren't aware of the facts will know them.

I think if we have a pic of the mare (or others), that would make it that much more powerful. A picture can mean so much more than words, sometimes.

For all interested in helping either finacially or otherwise, please e-mail or PT me...I would gladly put up the $$ for the entire ad if I could, but alas, I cannot...so $$$ is needed if we are actually going to make this idea War Admiral have come to fruition.

lisa
Feb. 27, 2004, 11:00 AM
I have my book right in front of me. I have been skimming through it, most recently because of an incident regarding Jerry Farmer (eww).

Anyway, I digress.

"About the middle of the summer (lisa: a few weeks after June 2 when a previous killing occured) &lt;snip about farm names, etc.&gt; Paul Valliere complained to Ward that he was unhappy with the performance of one of his horses, an animal named Roseau Platiere. According to Burns, Ward told Valliere &lt;snip about Valliere being a well-known trainer&gt; that he could solve his problem by contacting the Sandman."
"Predictably, Burns said, Valliere called. After they chatted, the stable owner (lisa:Valliere) agreed to pay Burns five thousand dollars to have Roseau Platiere killed in a manner that mimicked a natural death."
"A few days later, on August 3, Burns flew to Sugarbush, VT, where Roseau Platiere was performing in a show. Earlier Valliere had told Burns which tent and which stall the horse was in. 'You'll know you have the right one because I'll leave a red halter hanging on the door,' Valliere said."
&lt;snip about how Burns killed the horse&gt;
"Burns electrocuted the animal, picked up a $3,500 down payment Valliere had left for him hidden under the seat of a golf cart..." &lt;snip about him returning to IL&gt;
"Valliere filed an insurance claim for $75,000 on the horse and it was paid in full on September 18."

PV pled guilty to conspiracy to commit wire and mail fraud and was sentenced to 4 years probation.

cidbad
Feb. 27, 2004, 11:06 AM
Roseau Platiere was a stallion and you people can't even get that fact right.

Nikki^
Feb. 27, 2004, 11:12 AM
Lisa, that just makes me sick! PV isn't only a heartless, greedy killer, he's also a sneaky, heartless, greedy killer! WOW, I cannot believe people still associate with this shady person!

I wonder what would've happen if they killed the wrong horse, if there was another stall with a red Halter....

Makes you want to padlock you horse's stall at a show during the day and camp in the stall with him/her during the night.

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

RugBug
Feb. 27, 2004, 11:20 AM
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikkibaby27:
Lisa, that just makes me sick! PV isn't only a heartless, greedy killer, he's also a sneaky, heartless, greedy killer!

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, Nikkibaby27...most killers are pretty sneaky. That shouldn't be a big surprise.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"I didn't jump. I took a tiny step and there conclusions were."

lisa
Feb. 27, 2004, 11:21 AM
One thing I can't seem to find in the book: Wasn't PV given a lighter sentence for cooperating with authorities, i.e., by wearing a wire?