They have caught Saddam Hussein

[easyjumper1]

More on the CNN website. (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/)

[This message was edited by easyjumper1 on Dec. 14, 2003 at 08:09 AM.]

[easyjumper1]

More on the CNN website. (http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/)

[This message was edited by easyjumper1 on Dec. 14, 2003 at 08:09 AM.]

[Nickelodian]

OH WOW...when did this happen?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
www.scatteredoaksfarm.com (http://www.scatteredoaksfarm.com)

[can't re-]

Yahoo!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif
I really hope it's him.....sounds like it.
Official briefing @ 7 AM.

[SLW]

God bless W, his cabinet, our troops, their families & America. It took courage to do what we did.

SLW
"The horse stopped with a jerk, and the jerk fell off."

[dressager]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> It took courage to do what we did.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
From our point of view.

I am glad that he has been captured though... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif for the US troops!

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

[This message was edited by dressager on Dec. 14, 2003 at 09:23 AM.]

[This message was edited by dressager on Dec. 14, 2003 at 09:23 AM.]

[This message was edited by dressager on Dec. 14, 2003 at 09:25 AM.]

[AJHorsey]

Just watched the briefing! My favorite line was the opener:

"Laties and Gentlemen:
We Got Him!"
~L. Paul Bremer

It is him! He was captured about 8 PM last night- their local time. What a great day for the Iraqui people. My dad woke me up this morning about 20 minutes before the briefing, and we watched it. Of course, he was yelling "hoo-ah!" every time the Army engineers were mentioned, as well as the infantry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif (My dad is in the engineers, though not in a unit right now.)
God bless America and the troops that support us!

Standardbred lover- owner of Studs Hooligan, aka Strider, ex- pacer, retrained for eventing
Standardbred Clique
ARMY Brat
Disgruntled College Students Clique
"I am a great asset!"-Maj Burns
"You're only off by two letters."-Hawkeye ~M.A.S.H.

[Natty Dread]

That is sooo cool!

DId you see him? He so looks like a beaten man.

Its really going to help to pick up the moral of all our troops
over there.

What a great Christmas present.

[easyjumper1]

Well, I just thought he looked like Gandalf. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Anyway, I'm glad they caught the bastard. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[deltawave]

No, SARUMAN! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

OMG, heart pounding, hope to God it's true! Have been beaming evil thoughts his way for a long time--somehow they never get through! We could all use a boost like this--give our troops a real shot in the arm for Xmas! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you don't believe in Xmas miracles...think back to a little less than a year ago when Aiden got his liver. Now this! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

[Louise]

Oh, I so hope that the DNA tests prove its him and not one of his body doubles. They must be pretty darn sure, though, to announce it like this.

This will be such a boost not only for our troops, but for the Iraqi people, many of whom still lived in fear that, somehow, he would return.

---------------------------
"This it be die most importante thing in die world, that someone they loff us."
Willem

[Daydream Believer]

I got up, turned on the TV, and there was Dan Rather telling what had happened. All I can say is I hope this bastard pays for what he has done. I also pray that this is the beginning of the road to peace.

"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

[efobyrne]

Do feel to flame, which I'm sure some of you will, but this would relate to horses.... how?

[dressager]

efobyrne- When events such as this, or 9/11 happen, the WONDERFUL mods let us talk about them.

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

[Sea Monkey]

I thought he looked like Santa Claus.

Merry Christmas America. ;D

[Nauset]

Just heard they are having a confrence at 9:30...

UNITED WE STAND! YAYYY!

..:*:..:*:..:*:.BAS.:*:..:*:..:*:..
Proud Member of the SHORT & STUBBY LEG CLIQUE and the Homeschooled Clique.


http://community.webshots.com/user/samtb056

[HopelessHunter]

Yep, I heard this too. I don't know, but I had a niggling feeling in the back of my mind that they would catch him soon -- http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Feel free to visit my blog (http://www.geocities.com/tiffsdiary/1.html)

[Offset]

I thought he looked like Karl Marx.
I loved the opener as well - "We got him!" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[fernie fox]

A huge THANK YOU,to every person involved since 911.

This HAD to be done.

Of course IMHO.

fernie fox
"I have lived my life-it is nearly done-.I have played the game all round;But I freely admit that the best of my fun I owe it to Horse and Hound".

[Tom King]

They ran him to ground! How cool is that?

[Daydream Believer]

I'd gladly send my JRT's down the earth after him! Sniff out the varmit!

"No hour of life is lost that is spent in the saddle..." Winston Churchill

[Box-of-Rox]

this is a great day for the Iraqis, and a pivotal day for the Americans and our little experiment with forced morals. We'll now see if one can create a liberal democracy from a fundamentalist autocracy. Let us hope that we can use prudence, judgement, and reason as effectively as we can use force and emotion.

Also, that it is recognized that today is the start of a job, not the end of it, and that a new one isn't commenced before the region is stabilized, the allies' aims are implemented, and our troops have been returned safely home to be with their families.

BoR--resident Stupid Child

[SCEqQueen]

Early Merry Christmas everyone! :-)

*Proud Member of the -
*Dutch Warmblood Clique!*
* Putting-off-schoolwork-to-do-something-more-interesting clique!
*Non-GPA Clique

[Phaxxton]

So glad that he was caught, and it's been confirmed that it's him.

Take time to say some prayers and remember all the men and women overseas fighting this war. There was another sobering rememberance of the cost of war on what should be a joyous celebration today: a soldier was killed while trying to disarm an exposive device. So, while we celebrate, which I think we should, let's not forget the price we paid.

[Anyplace Farm]

I heard this first thing when I woke up this a.m.. I swear to you, I was all by myself (except for my Jack Russell Monsters) and did a dance when I heard it. Best damn news all year.

`````````````````````````````````````````
"I NOW INFORM YOU THAT YOU ARE TOO FAR FROM REALITY."
Mohammed Saeed al-Sahaf, Iraqi Minister of Information

"Life ain't certain...ride your best horse first." Unknown

[Charlsie]

Thank you to all of our troops and everyone involved in this. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have a friend being sent overseas soon. Hopefully this news will lift his spirits and those of our troops already over there.

Pictures (http://community.webshots.com/user/theskittlefreak)

[foursocks]

Hey, everybody- reality check- our OWN GOVERNMENT admitted that they could find no evidence that Saddam was involved in 9-11.

Read that again. Please. It is embarassing that we are so ADD in this country that we just jump to believe whatever we are fed. Why haven't we caught Bin Laden- now *him* I'm scared of!!!!

As for our troops- yay for them- go troops! I feel terrible that they are dying for our country in what many of them are coming to believe is a ridiculous, senseless cause. I have many friends and some family in the military- I support them, I think our current administration is insane to be pursuing this course and using these men and women as sniper-fodder.

I'm glad we caught Saddam, but only because we once more made him into a big threat, whereas before we overthrew him, he had been successfully reduced to a NON-THREAT by the last Gulf War. Aside from this being the belief of everyone else in the region, none of whom have any reason to like Saddam, and most of the rest of the world, this is also according to G Bush, Senior, who went on the record as saying he didn't think it was necessary to attack Iraq.

I didn't like the guy as a leader- he was pretty awful. But we surely do support many, many other terrible dictators, so giving that as a reason to overthrow him is also not going to cut the mustard. Anyway, I'm trying to interject reason into jingoism, which is probably a lost cause, so I'm bowing out of this thread. Flame away, patriots! I love my country, too, having lived in many other places in this world- but I believe that we are going to suffer for our militaristic aggression- which makes me terrified.

You can take a line and say it isn't straight- but that wont change its shape. Jets to Brazil

[dressager]

Amen foursocks

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

[Phaxxton]

foursocks... Well, I first beg to differ that there is no evidence Saddam Hussein was involved in 9-11. While he wasn't inolved directly in the attack, there is plenty of evidence that he supplied support, money, and training to AL Queda. Sorry if you don't want to believe that's true. Furthermore, the war on Iraq isn't about 9-11. And, well, maybe I missed something, but where on this thread did people say anything about 9-11? Just curious.

I'm not flaming you, just pointing out that there is 'spin' on both sides. And furthermore, being defensive towards the "patriots" sounds somewhat like a preemptory flame. You're entitled to your position, others are entitled to theirs. I'm not saying you did this, as you didn't, but while we're on the subject... I think that getting high and mighty and making it sound like one's position is the only valid one merely shows close-mindedness. I'm willing to accept someone else's point of view. I don't love war, no one does. Quite frankly I am insulted when anyone insinuates that anyone who believes differently from you is stupid because they must just be believing everything the government tells us. Guess what, people who disagree with you have a mind of their own. Surprise, there happen to be intelligent, free-thinking conservatives in this country. Just because someone agrees with the government doesn't mean they're so "ADD" they can't think for themselves.

I'm sorry, I don't mean to take this out on you... but I am tired of hearing that anyone who supports this administration is just an idiot who believes everything the government says. Does it never cross anyone's mind that perhaps these people have valid, intelligent reasons for their beliefs? People may just disagree on fundamental grounds. I'm not going to force anyone to believe what I do, so I'd appreciate it not being insinuated that I don't think for myself just because I agree with some of the things the government does. And let's not forget that not too long ago this military effort had bipartisan support.

All right, I'm done arguing for today. I just can't stop thinking about that poor soldier who died... I am taking some comfort in knowing that we have prevented Saddam from killing more people, though.

[This message was edited by Phaxxton on Dec. 14, 2003 at 11:09 AM.]

[This message was edited by Phaxxton on Dec. 14, 2003 at 11:09 AM.]

[AppJumpr08]

I'm not going to dip my toe in the waters of controversey...up too late last night for thathttp://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
I will add that I just want all my friends to come home! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif I have a friend who's husband is over there, and we have no idea when he's going to come back http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

~Jessica
Mom to 'the boys' - Newt & Image http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Hexel]

War is not a good thing. However neither is the schoolyard bully beating up fellow humans. While the rest of the folks in the schoolyard stand by and watch in fear of their own losses if they take action. When someone gets up the gumption to thwart the bully the whole schoolyard is relieved and cheers. The other up and coming bullies may then think twice about becoming full fledged bullies.

What strikes me the most about Saddam Hussein is his continued big ego. To call the citizens dancing in the streets the theives of his country and not accept that there is a true happiness of his citizens. Well I believe he may be in a weeee bit of denial and is a very sad soul. He will never realize what he is and what he has done. It still amazes me how many sheep he found to follow him and saw nothing wrong with mass murder. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

foursocks I too lived in Europe in my younger years as well as Turkey. My cousin in Germany and I are frequently at complete opposite poles on the current world issues and war. You should see some of the email she forwards me from her neck of the woods and their feelings/thoughts. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I do not think this is about 911. Rather it is about helping a country and people that would not be able to thwart the bully themselves. This is about helping, doing the right thing, despite the losses we will have to endure for a greater good in the world. No one wants one soldier not to come home. However should we allow the Iraq people to live in such opression ?

I'm wondering why Germany/France and Europe are so against liberating Iraq. Were they not relieved when Hitler was removed? I would think they would be sympathetic to the people of Iraq what they have endured under this awful dictatorship. I'm sure it is more complicated and money and oil are the root of this lack of support.

Edited for spelling http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[This message was edited by Hexel on Dec. 14, 2003 at 11:23 AM.]

[This message was edited by Hexel on Dec. 14, 2003 at 11:29 AM.]

[All points]

Foursocks, for those of us with ADD, how about the cockpits of commercial airplanes found in the Iraqi desert. Planes used to train terrorists, guess what terrorist group trained there???? They trained there with the blessing of Saddam. But I guess, Saddam had nothing at all to do with 911. You are entitled to your opinions, but leave ADD out of it.

This is a great day for our troops!!

[McLeanHunterRider]

Whether or not he was involved in 911 doesn't change the fact that he was evil dictator and he killed thousands of innocent people. I'm doing a little happy dance right now!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

----
It's not easy (http://community.webshots.com/user/huntershowgal) to be me (http://www.xanga.com/home.aspx?user=horseygal714)
Proud member of the Teen Clique

[birdsong]

So the President is going to be on TV at 12:00 EST...and so this is about horses...Saddam was not found riding a horse!!

[lilblackhorse]

Well, it just goes to show you that sometimes the end DOES justify the means. At least baby succeeded in something that Daddy failed at. Next, onward and upward to catch Bin Laden (oh yeah, we're still at war with Afghanistan too) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Elippses Users Clique........"I hate stall rest" and Grammar Nazi Cliques

"What the fuh?" Robby Johnson

[Hexel]

Well maybe not on a horse hmmmmmmmmm
but on a farm! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[BelladonnaLily]

Isn't it amazing that we still have Saddam supporters in our own country? Sorry folks, but that's how I see it. I won't post again on this thread because I simply don't want to argue this again. I'm astonished that whether or not you believe Saddam had anything to do with 9/11, you aren't overjoyed to hear that Saddam has been captured. Regardless of how or why, we ARE there now. And we've already done the war debate here and we don't need to do it again.

[easyjumper1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by McLeanHunterRider:
Whether or not he was involved in 911 doesn't change the fact that he was evil dictator and he killed thousands of innocent people. I'm doing a little happy dance right now!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I agree. That's why I think the Germans and French are being such a big bunch of hypocrites. Why on earth would you want to keep a mass murderer running a country? Grounds enough to try and remove this guy. What if the Americans had had the same attitude during the Second World War and declined helping us out? I also agree with Box-of-Rox, creating a stable democracy is going to be very hard, and I don't think the Americans should reject the help from the allies overseas.

[poltroon]

I am very glad he was captured - certainly a happy day for the troops and it will be a pivotal day for the people of Iraq. I hope his capture will pave the way to an actual peace that will allow a solid rebuilding of the cradle of western civilization.

However, even President Bush has admitted that Hussein had nothing to do with the 911 attacks (see the AP around mid-September of this year), and if you know the history of the region, bin Laden despised Hussein because he was a secular, rather than religious, leader. More bad blood there than between the current French and US governments. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif The evidence of al-Qaeda training camps in Iraq is in northern Iraq - you know, that area that has been patrolled by US aircraft and out of Hussein's control since 1992.

I have despised Hussein since the 80's (when Rumsfeld was shaking his hand and the US government was sending him weapons). There is no doubt that the world will be a better place without him.

Still, we have a long way to go before this whole adventure improves the lot of the Iraqi people. I hope we can swallow our national pride long enough to enlist the help of the rest of the world to do what is necessary to help make Iraq a stable, happy, and peaceful place - there is no doubt in my mind that at this point, our national security depends on us doing so. (And I wish we were still paying attention to Afghanistan, to ensure that the situation there doesn't go back to the way it was.)

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by easyjumper1:
I agree. That's why I think the Germans and French are being such a big bunch of hypocrites. Why on earth would you want to keep a mass murderer running a country? Grounds enough to try and remove this guy. What if the Americans had had the same attitude during the Second World War and declined helping us out?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We went to Europe, after the war had been going on for more than two years, because we were attacked, not because Hitler was knocking off what he termed were undesireables. Hitler had invaded Chech., Poland, France, and I think Holland and Belgium, before we ever set foot in Europe. Saddam had invaded no one.

We went to Iraq because our government wanted to. This decision went against our previous threshold that we only go to war after we or allies had been attacked.

I think since GWB has said Saddam was not involved in 9/11, we should probably agree with him. After all, he'd be the guy to most benefit it were actually true.

If attacking other countries because they are ruled by mass murderers is to become the norm, we will soon be at war with China, North Korea and Russia. Of course, these are countries who actually do have a viable military defense system as well as actually having those pesky WMD, so probably not.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> originally posted by all points
Foursocks, for those of us with ADD, how about the cockpits of commercial airplanes found in the Iraqi desert. Planes used to train terrorists, guess what terrorist group trained there???? They trained there with the blessing of Saddam. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You do realize the Al Queda training camp you reference was in Northern Iraq, in the no fly zone. If the area had any control, it was by the Kurds and is an area we bombed with astonishing frequency over the past 12 years.

When this camp was referenced as a reason to go to Iraq, even George Will wondered why we hadn't bombed it already.

[SillyFilly]

Poltroon, you put it well.

I am glad this human rights abuser and horrible man is in the hands of the law. "His people" deserve the safety I hope comes to their poor country.

Amy
MOOP Clique! OPH Clique! GUBR Clique!
Disgruntled College Student Clique!

[easyjumper1]

Saddam invaded Kuwait.

[Justbay]

I have to say GOOD JOB for the intel an special forces that got this done! And GREAT JOB for all those who have worked for many many months to do this, including my husband and brother-in-law and friends. I hope the corruption and violence will cease and the Iraqi people no longer live in fear.

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by easyjumper1:
Saddam invaded Kuwait.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif And after spending seven months building a coalition, GB the first went to Kuwait and, with the blessing of just about every country in the world, kicked his butt out 12 years ago!!!

Or did he invade Kuwait this spring and I missed it? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[accidental buckaroo]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phaxxton:
... but I am tired of hearing that anyone who supports this administration is just an idiot who believes everything the government says. QUOTE]

And just as true - those who do not or did not were labeled unpatriotic. Free speech has been an interesting 'other war.'

[June's Mom]

To all of who have such warm feelings right now for all our troops over there, please check out http://www.heromiles.org and find out how you can donate your unused flyer miles to help the men and women who get two week furloughs to come home. They have to pay for the tickets (last minute!) when the govt. transports bring them this far. Please check this out! Thanks, Joan

[khobstetter]

FIRST.....HORSES!!! Donkeys were used to carry ground to air missles..horses were used to carry terriosts into the desert to "practice" their trade!!

NOW..#1.. It is AMAZING to me that people still reduce this issue to 9-11...9-11 was the straw that BROKE THE CAMELS BACK!! Get it ?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is the "leader" that slaughtered masses, chopped up fathers while his their wives and children watched..hung and be headed collage age students in the town square because they voiced an opinion...

If he ever were to get out..I PRAY he lives right next door to you people who are mad at the USA for taking him down..may he be YOUR neighbor, may he decide the fate of YOUR father, may he "play" with the future of YOUR children!!!!

AND ...#2 I was in Germany when the plnes hit and I got stuck there an extra week, I go there several times of year. I did an article on Towerheads for Kenny about the people and their resistence...

Simply put..they (for the most part) were NEVER against the war..they are so war "tired" on their own land they simply were afraid of their neighbor and the retaliation he WOULD show them!!! I stood in the middle of Hamburg at the base of a Church steeple that was about 20 stories high...thats ALL that was left of that entire block after the last war.

Until we have WAR on our own land - we have no right to judge, until we see our cities leveled - we have no right to judge, until we live UNDER air planes bombing our omes and cities and schools - we have no right to judge, until we have MILLIONS of people exterminated on our own land we have no right to judge!!!!

I'll try to post the link to the story, or copy some for here.

I for one an glad my grandchildren will NEVER have to worry about this ONE!!!

And as for you guys who say WE SHOULD STAY OUT OF THE FIGHT BECAUSE "there are lots of these guys there"...you are right, there are more...AND AT LEAST WE HAVE GOTTEN RID OF ONE!!!!

While I do not agree, I understand

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

[Phaxxton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by accidental buckaroo:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Phaxxton:
... but I am tired of hearing that anyone who supports this administration is just an idiot who believes everything the government says. QUOTE]

And just as true - those who do not or did not were labeled unpatriotic. Free speech has been an interesting 'other war.'<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I labeled no one unpatriotic. The greatest feature of our government is our ability to have our own ideas and the right to speak up for what we believe in. I'm just saying that I resent the fact that many people think that Bush supports are all a bunch of morons who don't think for themselves. I happen to think for myself. I happen to be well-educated. I prefer the benefit of the doubt that I come up with my own opinions rather than being told I just believe whatever the government shoves down my throat. I respect other people's opinions, though I may disagree, and all I ask is that they respect mine.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by June's Mom:
To all of who have such warm feelings right now for all our troops over there, please check out http://www.heromiles.org and find out how you can donate your unused flyer miles to help the men and women who get two week furloughs to come home. They have to pay for the tickets (last minute!) when the govt. transports bring them this far. Please check this out! Thanks, Joan<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

This is a good idea and I think it's neat that someone set this up. But you know what really burns my hide?

[warning: rant]

People in Washington talk about supporting our troops, but they seem to mean by that, "sit down and shut up so other people's kids can go risk their lives and spend a year or two in unpleasant circumstances".

IMHO it is offensive that their employer (and that would be us, the taxpayers) will keep them overseas for years away from their families, and not pay for airline trips to their home base.

Every time I see pleas to mail hot cocoa, hand lotion, other simple necessity-like items from care packages from home, I get angry. I fully think our troops deserve those things. We the taxpayers who employ them should be providing them through the regular supply lines. It is ridiculous to create potential security risks and to burden the military mail system by mailing those things over in individually adddressed packages.

Let's really support our troops. Let's pay them what they deserve, supply them with their necessities, support their families, and ensure they have the care they need when they return.

[end rant]

Sorry June's Mom. Yours was a great post, it just struck a nerve. I'll go be good and talk about horses somewhere else, now. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[khobstetter]

Here is a small sample of the article I wrote after I returned..

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> When horse shopping in Europe with the agents we travel with, Erwin Hesse and Erin Characklis-Hesse, it is customary AND expected to partake of a bit of Cognac and/or coffee at just about every farm we visit. The German people, especially the "farmers" we go to see, are thrilled to invite you in for a toddy and a Copenhagen (we call those pastries). I decided to take advantage of the conversation time available and dig a bit about the reasons they (the Germans) did not want to go along with the USA in the Iraqi conflict.

The most amazing portrait started to emerge...and it certainly made a few things clear to me. The vast majority of Germans we spoke to were NOT against the USA or the Iraqi conflict...they were against their personal involvement..AGAIN. So many Wars have been fought on their home land that they are a weary people when it comes to any chance it will happen to them again, and Iraq is pretty close logistically. They have not only lost so many loved ones, they have lost huge chunks of their homeland and historical buildings and treasures to the ravages of War.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> The "church" has been left exactly as it was after the bombing. An entire city block is just as it was after the planes flew out that day...the charred, burned walls of the steeple, the broken doors and shattered windows, the rubble still scattered around...nothing has been touched OR will be allowed to be tampered with. It is now a national historical site.

It (the rubble) is left to act nowadays as a call to peace and a monument to the 50,000 people of Hamburg alone who lost their lives. Unless you have stood at the base of the alter and looked up at the steeple, it is difficult to even imagine the atrocities that hit that country. Until you stand in the center of bombed out St. Nicholas church in Hamburg you cannot have an understanding of their heart sadness.

They were not against the War, they were against losing more of what they have already lost in so many other wars. Do I agree? That's not my business to judge....I have not lost my homeland, I have not lived through the day in and day out of bombs falling around me, I have not witnessed the destruction so vast and unchangeable after the fact.......maybe its not valid to us, but it sure makes more sense after being there and talking to them WHILE this current War was in action.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Now then ...FIRST THINGS FIRST... there are alot of things on Towerheads that do not have to do with shows...Kenny gives us the right to write anything we want. It's a GREAT site to keep up on so much more than horse show stuff....go to the site, or join for membership and read the entire article about the "war",,including pictures..

and I for one have felt a "heart" connection with the people of Germany since I am there so much..

And THAT is my own opinion....I'M GLAD THE "WITCH" (Sadam) IS GONE!!

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

[kt]

Oh good grief. I knew it would take no time at all on this thread for a political controversy to begin brewing. I'm all for expressing your opinions, but sheesh, you guys wear me out sometimes.

***
The hardest to learn was the least complicated.

[poltroon]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Already in my inbox I've gotten spam emails with Saddam Hussein in the subject line that were really ads for something else. Sheesh.

[danceranddiggety]

So should none of us go to those slaughter sales and buy whatever horses we can anymore? After all, there are other horses bound for slaughter out there, and we can't take care of all of them, so should we just not even bother with the ones we CAN do something about?
(for those who can't tell because they're too busy wondering what this has to do with Iraq, it's called an analogy)

Because at the point where you can comprehend how incomprehensible it all is, you're about as smart as you need to be. - Trudy The Search For Signs....

[horseshoe]

when one bully is beaten down, unless the one beating them down is of perfect moral character, they are now the new bully.
i think many of the opinions stated here are valid and no single one is right. this is simply another turn in the thousands of years old cycle of superpowers and religious wars, and NONE of us are sufficiently removed from the events to offer an objective view. however, this doens't mean that discussion of our subjective views is useless.
the only statements so far in this discussion that offend me are the people doing "happy dances". i think that a event of this significance requires a little more intellectual attention than is achieved by a "happy dance".

[deltawave]

400,000 buried in mass graves in Iraq. Let's stop and think what that means for a minute. Yes, Bin Laden is scary because he had the temerity to mastermind an attack on OUR COUNTRY. Saddam just tore up his own people by the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS. I'm glad the bastard is behind bars and hope he is tried and convicted in a hurry by his own people and punished according to their law.

I don't care who caught him, and would cheer just as loudly with the Iraqis if it had been 2 years from now and somebody else was in the White House, but I'm glad it was sooner and not later. Spin it any way you like (heaven knows Washington and anyone trying to GET to Washington will) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif but this is a great day! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

[Whiskey Lullaby]

HAPPY BIRTHDAY TO ME....on the exact TIME I was born! hahaha.....sweet 16, sour day for Saddam!

Speak kindly to your little horse,
And soothe him when he wheezes,
Or he may turn his back on you,
And kick you where he pleases.


Member of the Teen Clique!

[Hexel]

horseshoe I prefer to look at the world in a more positive light. I would rather keep hope that those opposing evil/bullying do so for the better of the world, and not to become the evil they have fought to remove.

Maybe if we lived and walked in the shoes of oppressed people around the world. We would be happy and dance for freedom as well. I can only imagine the fear these people must have lived in. There are places in the world that we might be killed and tortured just for expressing our opinions so freely as we do on this BB.

[Schatten]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> While he wasn't inolved directly in the attack, there is plenty of evidence that he supplied support, money, and training to AL Queda. Sorry if you don't want to believe that's true. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bowling for columbine anyone?

http://community.webshots.com/user/lskel84

[easyjumper1]

Well, anyway, what I was trying to say was, if the French and the Germans were ruled by an evil mass murderer dictator, they'd be pretty darned happy if they would be freed by someone too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Frank B]

Regarding France, Germany, Russia, and their Mini-Me, Belgium:

This is something the mass media has been mostly 'neglecting'. The usual suspects mentioned above -- and others -- have long financed the Butcher of Baghdad to the tune of countless billions of dollars. They knew from the git-go that his fall would make these debts uncollectable, and thus they oppose all efforts.
Even now they refuse to forgive the innocent people of Iraq these crushing obligations.

Watch for them to be informed that if they forgive the Iraquis the debts SH incurred, they just might be allowed to bid on the re-construction contracts.

Face it, folks! There's a lotta stuff Brokaw, Blitzer, Rather, Rivera, and that Canadian guy ain't tellin' ya!

Frank B.

[deltawave]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Well, anyway, what I was trying to say was, if the...Germans were ruled by an evil mass murderer dictator, they'd be pretty darned happy if they would be freed by someone too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Can you say WWII?

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

[elizabeth]

Sometimes I think to myself "I'm a smart woman. I know what I'm talking about. I can arm-chair-quarterback George Bush's military actions. The dumb punk."

Then I look over to consult with my cabinet members, my intelligence advisors, military experts, international affairs gurus, and I realize I don't freakin' have any!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[DoubleTwistedWire]

Frank B., the Europeans aren't the only ones who did business with Saddam. I believe we're the ones who put him in power to begin with, as a countermanoeuver against the then-Iranian government. It's only when the puppet sprouted a mind of his own that he became a problem to us; our issues arose with him not over the massacres of hundreds of thousands of his people, but over his independance from US control.

While I applaud the fact that he's been captured, and recognize the effort that went into it, it came 10 years too late. This whole thing could have been avoided if things had been finished properly during the first Gulf War.

[horseshoe]

disclaimer-- i am procrastinating in a major way today..and i'm just in the mood for some argument/discussion. anyone who feels the same way, bring in on! everyone else, sorry. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

hexel-
i don't believe that the bully will become the evil that they fought to remove, but no one is perfect and power corrupts. whether the evil they become is a lesser evil or just a different evil...i don't know. who's to say if humanity is progressing..no one, because as i said before we are all too blinded by our own perspective to have an objective point of view.

i am only offended when people express sentiments such as "happy birthday to me" or do a "happy dance", because it doesn't give deserved recognition to those are truly oppressed, as those on this board for the most part have no idea what they have gone through and will go through. it is not as thought saddam is captured and *SNAP* thousands of peoples lives are improved. i just want to encourage people to avoid good/bad oversimplification and search for a deeper understanding of current events.

[punk]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif YAHOO!! That is so good! Maybe this will mean that my dad will get to come home faster.

Jamie

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
Then I look over to consult with my cabinet members, my intelligence advisors, military experts, international affairs gurus, and I realize I don't freakin' have any!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually, it turns out you don't really need any of that stuff. All you need is one James Baker, III. Ah well, better late than never we saw the demise of all things neocon.

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

[RAyers]

DMK,

One great thing about this, more fodder for Opus, Milo and the gang!!!!!

Reed

[DMK]

... for which I am eternally and profoundly grateful!

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

[Jewels]

I'm so glad he's been captured! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

BIG thumbs up to the troops! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"You could say I'm a few flakes short of a bale" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif
*Member of the Short Stubby Leg Clique* & *Teen Clique* Finally a place where I belong! *wink*

[Frank B]

Actually, the coalition is pouring money and manpower into the rebuilding of Iraq and are not all that concerned about repayment. The 'peace dividend' is seen as the ROI (return on investment), just as when the USSR's house-of-cards collapsed.

Coalitions form and dissolve to fit the requirements of the moment. Ever played Risk ? Fascinating board game of strategic maneuvering!

Remember, we were allies with Russia during Hitler's attempt at world domination. And of course there's also our pre-WWII relations during the China/Japan conflict.

International politics is almost as fascinating as international finance. If only it wasn't so deadly. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif

[elizabeth]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:
Actually, it turns out you don't really need any of that stuff. All you need is one James Baker, III. Ah well, better late than never we saw the demise of all things neocon.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

All *you* might need is Jim Baker. As for GW and I, we need more.

(We - err, I - needed a dictionary for neocon, too, but it was not in my dictionary. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )

[*Next*Star*To*Shine*]

Yay! I'm glad the Hussein has finally been caught. Maybe now the US government can find out if he really had WMD. I think the reason most countries were against the war in Iraq (I'm Canadian and we were, for the most part, against it) was because we wanted more proof than assumptions of WMDs to commit to going to war. War is very expensive to get involved in and takes a lot of commitment. Sure he was an evil dictator, but there are plenty of other evil dictators in this world, such as that Kim Whatshisname guy from North Korea. If you are going to go after one evil guy because he's evil, then you have to go after all of them.

Just one thing that has been bugging me: Why was French fries changed to Freedom fries? Seems a little extreme to me. Also why punish other countries for not supporting the war, they have just as much right to oppose a war as the US has to be pro war.

Just my opinion, which I am allowed to have (*hopefully without flaming) since these are countries of freedom of speech.

Grab a chance and you won't be sorry for what might have been http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[havaklu]

Just off the top of my head - WE have had war on "our land" The revolutionary war (just a minor scirmish...) and let's not forget the civil war.

I think those two give us plenty of "rights" (pun intended) http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Until we have WAR on our own land - we have no right to judge, until we see our cities leveled - we have no right to judge, until we live UNDER air planes bombing our omes and cities and schools - we have no right to judge, until we have MILLIONS of people exterminated on our own land we have no right to judge!!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

[ALF]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Saddam had invaded no one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Which Saddam are we talking about?

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We went to Europe, after the war had been going on for more than two years, because we were attacked <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Attacked by Japan, not Hitler.

[Phaxxton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Schatten02:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> While he wasn't inolved directly in the attack, there is plenty of evidence that he supplied support, money, and training to AL Queda. Sorry if you don't want to believe that's true. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

bowling for columbine anyone?

http://community.webshots.com/user/lskel84&lt;HR&gt;&lt;/BLOCKQUOTE&gt; (http://community.webshots.com/user/lskel84<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>)

[/quote]

Talk about sensationalism! Michael Moore is the KING of spin. He is also someone totally unwilling to listen to anyone with views that differ from his own. Watch his interviews - it's true.

I've seen the movie, I believe in gun control. Nothing MM can will change my thoughts on Hussein or the fact that there was a relationship between Hussein and Bin Ladin. We can get into the whole "BL did criticize SH for not being fundamentally religious enough in his leadership" but that doesn't mean there wasn't a working relationship between them.

I've gotta go with what elizabeth posted, though. When I have the intelligence and advisors of the President (and bipartisan support, which he DID have) then I can make the calls on whether to go to war. Until then, I trust the President's decision, I applaud our troops over there, and I hope peace and stability is brough to Iraq. What's done is done, and if I am going to criticize our government it will be about the way they are going about setting up a temporary and long-term government. I do have problems with they way they're going about that and unfortunately delaying giving any power at all to Iraqis... but that's a whole different thread...

BTW, Roger and Me was a better film, anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Phaxxton]

punk - prayers for your dad and jingles for his safe return!!! ((((Hugs))))

[BaldEagle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DoubleTwistedWire:

the Europeans aren't the only ones who did business with Saddam.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

France, Germany and Russia are the main World lenders to Iraq. 60 Billion total. Everybody know that those countries were protecting their money and their business with Saddam

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I believe we're the ones who put him in power to begin with, as a countermanoeuver against the then-Iranian government.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No they didn't


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>While I applaud the fact that he's been captured, and recognize the effort that went into it, it came 10 years too late. This whole thing could have been avoided if things had been finished properly during the first Gulf War.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you were the President of the US at that time, you could have triggered the WW III if you did that. The Soviet Union threatened to intervene if the US would go any further than the liberation of Kuwait.
Now, after the colapse of the Soviet Union (1991) it was possible to finish the job without risks of a major confrontation between super power

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Unspecified:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Saddam had invaded no one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Which Saddam are we talking about?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That would be Saddam Hussien, who, after we pitched him out of Kuwait12 years ago, a situation I fully supported along with pretty much the rest of the world, was sitting on his butt in his own country with almost zero military power, not to mention a rather glaring lack of WMD, when we attacked Iraq. Not to say he wasn't busy annihilating his own folks, he just hadn't been picking on anyone else recently. And since we went to war with Iraq because we thought he had something to do with 9/11 and because we knew he had WMD and knew where they were and because we (the US of A) were in eminent danger from the aforementioned WMD, we attacked first.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>We went to Europe, after the war had been going on for more than two years, because we were attacked <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Attacked by Japan, not Hitler.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

&lt;sigh&gt; Let me give you a very simplistic timeline. Japan declares war on us and Britian, pretty much at the same time they attack Pearl Harbor. Almost immediately, Germany and Italy (Remember the Axis powers? You know, Germany, Italy and Japan? Well and sometimes Russia, although later Russia could have been considered an Allied power, but that part is too confusing) also declare war on the U.S. They declared war on us.

[Duffy]

Phaxxton - most excellent posts.

Kudos to our intel and troops!!!

I refuse to get into another political debate today.

"B***h in training"

[ALF]

He never established that his WMD's were dismantled.

[J Swan]

Hey - we can all agree on one thing. Perhaps our people are a little bit closer to coming home. For many of us they are family members and/or friends.

Hope all of them come back safe and sound.

"I have observed in women of her type a tendency to regard all athletics as inferior forms of fox-hunting”- Evelyn Waugh

[lauriep]

Phaxxton,
YOU didn't label anyone unpatriotic, but on the HUGE war thread, when it began back in March, those of us who voiced our disagreement with either the process or the war itself, were indeed called unpatriotic here by many of the war/GWB supporters. I think that is what the poster was referring to.

Whatever the reasons France, Germany, Russia had for staying out, I still maintain it was their RIGHT to do so and we would want the same for our country/leader. And much of the rest of the world DID question Bush's rush to war without giving more than an wink and a nod to diplomatically trying to build more support pre-war. After all, what was the damn hurry?

But YAY! They got him and now I hope we can redouble our efforts to find the REAL threat to us, Bin Laden.

Laurie

[jr]

Laurie P asked -- After all, what was the damn hurry?

I'll take a stab at it. Hussein was funding Palestinian suicide bombers. Threatening his neighbors with the veiled dual threat of chemical/bio programs and aggressive regional politics. He was encouraging radicalism among the younger demographic in modern Arab nations. In short, he was one major destabilizing factor in the region.

Future peace in the Middle East and rest of the world DEPENDS on the development of moderate, western looking governments in the Middle East. Western looking in that they bring the strength of their cultures to play fully in global economic development -- not just the trade of $ for oil as in the past.

How do you kill Al Queda?? Dry up their pool of recruits. How do you do that?? By solving the problems in the Middle East that currently cause most young Arabs to feel they have no hope of better life. Al Queda and Hussein encourage them to feel angry, and then capitalize on that anger. We need remove the anger through economic development. It will be a long process, buth the first step is removing the political obstacles to the development and stability of moderate Arab governments.

It's easy to say war is bad. Harder to articulate a feasible alternative policy that addresses the problem. Why Now? We waited 10 years. I don't think we can afford another 10.

[JER]

I really hope the trial is public and I dearly hope that Saddam Hussein starts naming names. A lot of those names are going to sound mighty familiar to the Bush Administration. Donald Rumsfeld, anyone?

Let's not forget that the US government helped Saddam become Saddam. Armed him to the teeth, fed him all sorts of information, gave him chemicals weapons to use in the Iran-Iraq war. Probably not the best idea in hindsight but the US had other goals at the time.

So they've caught him and now it's time to get the US troops home. And it's time to stop occupying Iraq and really give it over to the Iraqi people, the majority of whom oppose the US occupation. Let the Iraqi people decide how they want to run their country -- for example, do they really want to allow 100% foreign ownership of businesses in Iraq? But the US-led transition team didn't consult the Iraqi citizenry when they made this rather important change in the law.

And honestly, I look forward to the return of the troops. They've taken far too much abuse.

[jr]

It's not time to stop occupying Iraq.

They are just starting to rebuild institutions. Police, Intelligence Service, Military, Judicial, etc. are all just starting. Ready to take on more responsibility? YES -- and they've started that process (it just doesn't get any press - not flashy enough for the media) If we leave now, we WILL be responsible for their failure.

Will we leave. Yes, when they're government is established and will be stable.

WWe took on responsibility when we invaded. We're responsible until they're institutions can take over in a stable fashion. The test isn't whether they like us today. It is whether they have a stable government in 10 years.

As to foreign ownership of business? Many countries do allow it -- It encourages investment in the country. Something sorely needed in Iraq.

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
All *you* might need is Jim Baker. As for GW and I, we need more.

(We - err, I - needed a dictionary for neocon, too, but it was not in my dictionary. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

LOL, while *I* might not need Jim, and *you* might not need Jim, I think it is VERY safe to say that GW has not been shy about his affections and feelings in this regard.

Neocon stands for neoconservative. It's just another school of thought in foreign policy that evolved from Kennedy's "Best and Brightest" cadre as opposed to the Political Realism school that defined most administrations in the post WWII era.

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

[SLW]

JER/jr- On NPR this afternoon a reporter use the word "occupy" in reference to our presence in Iraq, wrong word NPR reporter. FTR, we are not occupying Iraq, we are over there to remove a madman and those who are in kahoots with him.

We haven't forced the Iraqi culture to change and observe our western ways. We haven't punished the civilian or denied him basic food/water/shelter/medical needs.

Just needed to offer my comments to keep the discussion correct. If we were occupying Iraq it would be a whole different pony. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

SLW
"The horse stopped with a jerk, and the jerk fell off."

[jr]

SLW -- I'm not sure where you got your definition of occupation.

The term occupation is correct in this case. We are militarily occupying, controlling, and setting up a new governmental system.

The fact that we are not directly forcing cultural change has nothing to do with it. By forcing government change, we are likely affecting some amount of cultural change in the long run. We are forcing governmental change.

The term occupation was applied to Germany and Japan after WWII -- If it was correct in that case, it's correct in this one.

[SLW]

Compare our occupation of Iraq right now to Poland in 1939 and France in 1940 when Germany invadedand Russia occupying Afganastan in 1979. That's occupation.

America and coalition troops have not forced a change in religion, education, denied health care, etc. to the civilian population.

We went in to find and remove a specific target in Iraq, not make it America East.

SLW
"The horse stopped with a jerk, and the jerk fell off."

[jr]

I agree -- but the term occupation has NOTHING to do with our intent. It describes the situation. You are reacting to the negative connotation of the word, not the actual meaning.

I support our actions in Iraq. However, we are occupying the country. The fact that we feel our actions are justified, or that we think we acting with good intent, does not change the fact that we are occupiers. It is important that we NOT forget that. While perhaps well meaning, our actions have consequences and we must work everyday to make sure that we do the right thing.

[JER]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> We haven't forced the Iraqi culture to change and observe our western ways. We haven't punished the civilian or denied him basic food/water/shelter/medical needs.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Of course, the culture clash is inevitable. Or, as a US Army captain told a UK newspaper: "This is freedom and freedom can mean different things, and in this case freedom means we are going to have to enforce our values on them."

A great quote, for sure and it's rather jingoistic when taken out of context. But the captain was referring to the US military's attempt to ban smoking by doctors on duty (yikes!!) in Iraq's hospitals. This is a cultural change -- but more important, it's a change supporting good health and health care for all humans regardless of cultural heritage. It's just very ironic to hear it explained in terms of 'freedom.'

[Box-of-Rox]

Let me preface this by saying that I am a dork. I am a dork that *should* be studying for exams but I am a burned out dork. So instead I will ramble on COTH. I extend a most humble pre-emptive apology.

Let us hope that our government has the foresight to make Iraq an America east. It doesn't necessarily have to be an america, but it does have to be founded on the "liberalist" political theories. Mature, liberal democracies do not fight with each other. IMO this "democratic peace" is a result of two things: a, governments based on liberal principles have too much in common with each other to fight, and b, the value premise of a liberal democracy is too ingrained in the citizens' ideaology that they wouldn't stand for a ruler's agency in initiating a war with another mature democracy.

Now, I don't think that the government believes that, now that Saddam Hussein is removed, and the Baath party is very much weakened, a free Iraqi election would yeild that country's very own Texas Yalie with a penchant for morning jogs and downtime and the ranch, but sometimes I do think that it is so bent on the "democracy" part that it fails to realize that democracy is really just a consequential, not fundamental, part of the democratic peace.

Our government, especially (though CERTAINLY not exclusively) the current one, seems to think that the state of Iraq and Afghanistan and North Korea, etc. comes from superior opression, when I would posit that it is a result of cyclical superior opression and internal elevation. If you had elections tomorrow, the Iraqis wouldn't vote for a "liberal democratic" leader because they are not liberal democrats. If left to their own devices they probably wouldn't enfranchise the Kurds. They would vote for a fundamentalist Arab. the result of a democratic election might be a Baath party dictator, whose allegience to the US would be limited soley to his indebtedness for elevating his station; allegiences based on promotion are inversely related to promotion. When the new ruler gainst the power of his government, he will no longer need to be loyal to US, and will have nothing idealogically in common with the US. In 10-20 years we will be EXACTLY back where we are.

"Finishing the job" is CERTAINLY not disposing of Saddam Hussein, although it's a good first step. "Finishing the job" is not instituting an elected ruler. "finishing the job" is quite specifically restructuring not just Iraqi government, but Iraq itself. instituting FACTIONS, so that the Kurds are not a 10% minority that gets picked on, but rather so that there are several groups that identify enough internally to resist against tyrrany, and enough with other factions to band against that tyranny, but not enough to gang up on a faction they (collectively) don't identify with. Also, the US needs to take a good look at its own government, and realize that we are not a *democracy* but rather a *republic* and stop using "democracy" as a buzz word. Democracy is anathema to most educated people; it's basically mob rule. Alexander Hamilton himself HATED democracy.

So I'm thrilled that they caught Saddam Hussein. I don't think that this didn't need to happen--I disagree with the timing and I disagree with the whole preemtive thing and I disagree with the lack of involvment of the global community and I disagree with the motives and explanations used to justify it, but I don't think this didn't need to happen. I just really hope that the beginning isn't confused with the end, and I hope that we finish the job now, so that many many many more americans don't have to die in another ten years.

BoR--resident Stupid Child

[fleur]

box-of-rox, i don't think you are a dork, i think you are a very astute young woman who is headed towards several years of great education and a career doing something important! i really don't care to read most of the posts on this thread because who knows how educated they are, but yours just glows with knowledge and a great understanding of the way the world works, especially impressive for someone your age. keep on being a dork, please! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif you rock. good luck on exams and don't work too hard http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Madison]

That was great news to wake up to - I hope it was a boost for the troop's morale.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
http://community.webshots.com/user/madisonav

[Phaxxton]

Gosh, I don't even know why I'm posting yet again on this thread... but one thing did catch my eye reading through it this time... Everyone thinks that Bin Laden is the "real" threat to America. Unfortunately, that's just not true. He seems to be the face that everyone associates with 9-11, but the reality is that he had less to do with Al Queda's operations than many believe. In reality, he is somewhat of a "consultant" - helps plan ideas, but not implement them. People seem to think that he is the leader of Al Queda and the Mastermind behind all the terrorism, but that's not entirely true. Al Queda is a group of loosely, emphasis on LOOSELY, connected splinter groups. It's in their interest NOT to have a leader and not to be banded strongly together. If they are splintered and separated into small, independent groups, they're more dangerous. Bin Laden is not keeping Al Queda together, he's not the leader, and he doesn't have any power. He's a consultant to the Al Queda powers for lack of a better description. The threat to the US isn't going to stop when we find Bin Laden, in fact it may spark stark retaliation. But he is a start. I don't mean to downplay completely his role in 9-11, but it's incorrect to say that he's the real threat to the US.

If you want my opinion (and that plus a quarter will get you a local call http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif) the biggest threat to the US is probably Kim Jong Il of North Korea... But of course, he's the hardest target and the most difficult to take from power. I'm NOT advocating us going in and invading any other country, but I certainly believe that invading N Korea would pose a huge, immediate threat to the US. I could go on and on about North Korea, but that's so ridiculously OT, I think I'll stop here.

Okay, I think I've contributed more than enough to this thread...

To all of you with friends and family overseas, my thoughts and prayers for their safe return.

God bless.

[Phaxxton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Box-of-Rox:
.

Let us hope that our government has the foresight to make Iraq an America east. It doesn't necessarily have to be an america, but it does have to be founded on the "liberalist" political theories. Mature, liberal democracies do not fight with each other. IMO this "democratic peace" is a result of two things: a, governments based on liberal principles have too much in common with each other to fight, and b, the value premise of a liberal democracy is too ingrained in the citizens' ideaology that they wouldn't stand for a ruler's agency in initiating a war with another mature democracy.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, this thread is addicting. I want to say that this is where I disagree with the American policy toward rebuilding Iraq. Iraq CANNOT become a stable government if we make it America East. We have to understand that our government works for US, but it's not for everyone. We need to let the Iraqis have a LOT of say in how their government is set up if we expect them to keep this government and make it work. Yes, they'll need a representative democracy, but they need to have their own type. They are the ones who know their culture, they are the ones who have to run the government and they are the ones who have to live under it.

We have to accept the fact that this Iraqi government is everuntally going to be independent and self-sufficient. It's going to disagree with America sometimes, maybe a lot. And that's ok. This is for the Iraqi people and the stabilization of the region/world. It's not about building an American empire.

[Albion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Compare our occupation of Iraq right now to Poland in 1939 and France in 1940 when Germany invadedand Russia occupying Afganastan in 1979. That's occupation. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

We (America) occupied Germany after the war, as we did in Japan (of course, we did quite a lot of 'modernization' in Japan, so yes, I suppose we DID 'Americanize' the place) - we didn't leave until after we were SURE the gov'n't was stable, etc. We had good intentions - rebuilding the country, stabilizing the economy, and so forth (sound familiar?). We were an occupying force then, we are an occupying force now. Doesn't matter what our intentions are, we're occupying the country.

I just have to wonder what's going to happen if the Iraqi people decide a less secular/more fundamentalist government a la Iran is the way to go. I don't think vaulting into democracy is the way to go, but we'll certainly have a big headache if we wind up with another hard-line theocracy.

Oh well - we're in for the long haul now, one can only hope that the outcome is worth the loss of life.

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[Phaxxton]

Albion - keep in mind that America just isn't going to allow a theocracy or any form of government other than a representative democracy in Iraq - not if we're rebuilding it...

[khobstetter]

HEY!!!! They showed horses in Iraq on one of the news clips tonight that went over footage of what is happening over there..

Hope all the horses are OK after all this ends...

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org

[dcm]

9-11 changed all the rules.

Saddam is but one brick in the wall that keeps peace out of a region that is rife with war and violence, a region where the 9-11 plan originated. And sometimes when you remove a brick from a wall, other bricks in that wall fall on their own.

I, for one, am glad that particular brick is removed. Time will tell what other bricks fell on their own, and which if any needed to be removed.

I won't go into political debate here again. I refuse to be called a moron because I believe in what our government has done or is doing. I refuse to be called a lemming because I think GW has more sincerity in his pinky finger than most of Washington combined. I refuse to be told I am wrong when I state that Americans who go over seas (but not here, at home on our shores) and bash our government are unpatiotic. I never said you have to blindly follow your government in order to be a patriot. I never called anyone a moron or a lemming because they believe differently than I. I believe everyone in this country has a right to their own opinions, and to express them, but that everyone needs to remember that their rights end when they infringe on the rights of others.

Good news for our soldiers. Great news for the new Iraqi government. Outstanding news for the people of Iraq. May God, or Allah, bless all of them, and lead them to the right decisions regarding the disposition of this evil man.

PS - Tell me, why is it that Alec Baldwin still lives in the US when he swore he would never be able to live here if GW were elected President? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

[Khataan]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> but that everyone needs to remember that their rights end when they infringe on the rights of others.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please remember this statement when GWB tries to get his brand of judges thru to the courts.

How far off are we from a theocracy?

Well, I guess I will change my signature now, but one more time won't hurt!

Democrats were quick to point out that President Bush's budget creates a 1 trillion dollar deficit. The White House quickly responded with 'Hey, look over there, it's Saddam Hussein.'
- Craig Kilborn

[cheeky_appy]

OK good for them for catching him. But this all makes me feel sick, not coming from North America I can't see any much joy from any of it. He is an evil man, but really.
All I am saying.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
If a car passes me when I'm on a horse, I always think: if I were in that car and saw me, I would wish I was me. Wistful children's faces, staring out of the back window, agree - Monica Dickens

[DoubleTwistedWire]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BaldEagle:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I believe we're the ones who put him in power to begin with, as a countermanoeuver against the then-Iranian government.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No they didn't

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, it's a matter of record that we (the US, not you up north) suported Saddam's rise to power and provided/sold him some of the very arms we're now hunting. It was in hopes that Saddam's regime would counter the radical government of Iran, which has since toppled. Our administration at the time was big on selling arms to less than savory groups http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[starlady]

I have a definite personal beef against Saddam, having spent 6 weeks back in 1991 listening to Scuds exploding overhead--NOT my happiest memories. Maybe as part of his punishment he can be locked up in a sealed room with several small, healthy, active children, hyped out of their minds and not allowed to leave the house for 2 weeks. Evil laugh....


--s.

Under carefully controlled conditions of breeding, training, and care, a horse will do whatever it damn well pleases.

[dressager]

cheeky_appy- Your post sums up what people all day have been telling me. Saddam was a horrible man- someone who needed to be stopped, but most of them (and these are people FROM the United States, the middle east, Europe, etc) are VERY upset that the United States went against the UN (remember them?) and decided to do what "we" (and I use the term loosely- I was NOT proud to be an American today) did. We are NOT the international police, we do NOT have the right to do what we did.

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

[BelladonnaLily]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Khataan:
Please remember this statement when GWB tries to get his brand of judges thru to the courts.

How far off are we from a theocracy?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Why did the Dems fight so hard to keep a conservative Hispanic out? Wonder what would happen if we'd done the same if a Democratic president had tried getting a liberal Hispanic (or African-American or...). Can we say "race card" here? Both parties work to get their own "brand" of judges. I just believe they use different tactics to keep the ones they DON'T want off. We're a VERY long way off from a theocracy. Or did I miss something on the news? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

This discussion was headed in a very interesting direction until the Bush-bashing started again. What happens NOW is on everyone's mind and going back to what SHOULD'VE happened means nothing. I personally would love to hear more from starlady as she obviously has FIRST-HAND knowledge of life in the middle-east.

[This message was edited by BelladonnaLily on Dec. 15, 2003 at 07:42 AM.]

[relocatedTXjumpr]

I'm not going toget into a big debate over this. everyone has their own opinion and view on this subject and I dont think ANYONE knows all of the facts on any of this, I know I dont. I dont know who put him to power and why we didnt get rid of him in Desert Storm, but, I do know that IF he did all the things that he is said to have done, and by the looks of his palaces and then the looks of how his people lived, and the trade center disasters and all of the other things, then he needs to be delt with accordingly...and maybe I'm a huge redneck here, but as it was said on the radio this morning...lets find a tall tree and a short piece of rope and make it public. All of the money they have found needs to put BACK into that country to help the people whom he stole it from.
End of my ranting, as I said, Im not getting in a huge debate with this and you can flame me all you want. I had family in the pentagon that day and I have family overseas who are out there alone this holiday season while their families sit and wait for that awful phone call. Treat him as he has taught his people and us...he deserves it. Get it over with and bring our families home.

I AM a proud american and will ALWAYS be, I may not agree with everything that is done, but that is my right, but it WILL NEVER make me say to anyone that I am not proud to be where I am from and not proud to be here with the freedoms that I have...if you are not proud to be here then leave, my family is fighting for you and yours and they dont even know any of them, so to say you are not proud disgusts me and hurts, if my father dies so your kids can live a better life and they are not proud then, again, please find somewhere else to live.

Stepping off of my soapbox now.

B & B Sport Horses
Albums updated! New pictures or Rudy and Taylor!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

[starlady]

Thank you BelladonnaLilly, but to tell you the truth, I come to this BB to ESCAPE from the little stresses and strains of life in the middle east.


--s.

Under carefully controlled conditions of breeding, training, and care, a horse will do whatever it damn well pleases.

[dressager]

Excuse me, but I thought it was already brought up in this topic that Saddam did NOT have anything to do with 9/11.

I am not sorry that Saddam is out of power- I am happy. I feel that how he treated his people was wrong. The problem I have is how WE dealt with it. WE (as the United States) did NOT have the right to go in there, especially after the UN said no... or are we "above the law"?

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

[relocatedTXjumpr]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by dressager:
Excuse me, but I thought it was already brought up in this topic that Saddam did NOT have anything to do with 9/11.


I cant believe that he knew nothing about it or had nothing to do with it. he might not have, but i just cant believe it.

B & B Sport Horses
Albums updated! New pictures or Rudy and Taylor!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

[dcm]

Ditto BelladonnaLilly. My thoughts exactly!

Since when do liberals hold the monopoly on the ability to keep personal and religious beliefs out when making judicial decisions? Why are people so afraid of Christians?

And bear with me a moment while I bring up what "patriot" means. Definition per dictionary.com <BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>pa·tri·ot ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr-t, -t)
n.
One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> And since some people believe that conservatives, even moderate conservatives like myself do not tell the truth, here is the link Dictionary.com definition for patriot (http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=patriot) I do not understand how someone can love this country, call themselves a patriot, and then claim to be ashamed to be an American. It defies the very definition of patriot. But then, since so many want to rewrite history so that Christianity has no basis in the formation of our country, I guess they can rewrite the dictionary, too.

Once again, I congratulate our troops, the Iraqi government, and the Iraqi people on their success in capturing this evil man. Any method they used to do this is the right way in my book. No success is better than the success in righting a wrong, if indeed we were responsible for this evil man being in power in the first place.

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

[dressager]

I love my country, but I do not blindly support my country, and I most certainly will not defend something I do not support.

Dressager (http://www.geocities.com/lubenkafarm)
You don't throw a whole life away just because its a little banged up - Tom Smith

[deltawave]

Who cares if he had anything to do with 9/11? I know that was a horrible thing, but there ARE other places in the world besides the USA. Saddam had EVERYTHING to do with the mass slaughter of HALF A MILLION of his own people. That's good (bad) enough for me!

---------------------------------------------
"If you think your hairstyle is more important than your brain, you're probably right." Wear a helmet!
Pictures! (http://www.deltawave.homestead.com/photos2.html)
Helmet Nazi, Bah Humbug, Mares Rule, Breed Your Own and Michigan cliques!

[relocatedTXjumpr]

Thank you DCM. I wish people would think about the others who are helping keep our country safe, even if they dont believe in the cause..support them anyway. I want my family home too, and I dont know everything about whats going on...but I do support EVERY single person that is over there helping and giving thier lives! God be with them this season.

B & B Sport Horses
Albums updated! New pictures or Rudy and Taylor!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

[Nitro's Mommy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
Since when do liberals hold the monopoly on the ability to keep personal and religious beliefs out when making judicial decisions? Why are people so afraid of Christians?
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ever heard of a liberal Democratic Christian http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif I have many at my church--I am a liberal Quaker http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif (a historic peace church)

Funny thing is 2 weeks ago my pastor was talking about war and his different main takes on it were this:
1. By pulling the trigger of a gun and killing someone we are "playing" God by deciding when and where someone else will die.
2. When we have fought otherChristian countries, we were Christians fighting other Christians!!

"We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces, singing Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses." --some country song http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[DMK]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And bear with me a moment while I bring up what "patriot" means. Definition per dictionary.com

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>pa·tri·ot ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ptr-t, -t) n.
One who loves, supports, and defends one's country.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And since some people believe that conservatives, even moderate conservatives like myself do not tell the truth, here is the link Dictionary.com definition for patriot I do not understand how someone can love this country, call themselves a patriot, and then claim to be ashamed to be an American. It defies the very definition of patriot. But then, since so many want to rewrite history so that Christianity has no basis in the formation of our country, I guess they can rewrite the dictionary, too.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

It's probably worth mentioning that to love, support and defend one's country is something entirely different from supporting the actions or philosophy of any particular facet of the leadership, elected or otherwise. Different people have different ideas about what is best for their country. That doesn't make them unpatriotic.

Because if this were the case, then I think anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly love, support and defend everything that Teddy Kennedy and Tom DeLay loves, supports and defends is unpatriotic.

So now that we are ALL unpatriotic, can we just leave this interpretation of what patriotism means in the round file where it belongs?

It was soooo tempting to reduce this post (and thread) to Godwin's Law, but I resisted! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

"I used to care, but things have changed..." Bob Dylan

[Nikki^]

One down, one to go! GO TROOPS!!!

Kioko (http://www.geocities.com/area51/crater/5267/HeartofGold.html)

Look up your TB's bloodlines (http://www.dmtc.com/dmtc98/Pedigree/)

[reefy!]

Well said dcm.

Would you rather live in a country like Iraq?
Agree or not, you have freedoms here that you wouldn't have anywhere else. That makes me proud AND glad to be an american.

Way to go troops! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif That's who we really should be proud of http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[dcm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by DMK:

Because if this were the case, then I think anyone who doesn't wholeheartedly love, support and defend _everything_ that Teddy Kennedy and Tom DeLay loves, supports and defends is unpatriotic.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

No, but being ashamed to be an American is unpatriotic. Going overseas and telling people of other countries you are ashamed of our President is unpatriotic. That you disagree with what our country does is not in itself unpatriotic. I may not agree with everything our country does, but I'll be damned if I will not support or defend it. I'll be damned if I don't stand behind our troops.

Nitro's Mommy - My comment was in reference to how hard the Democrats and the liberals fought against some very qualified individuals who GW nominated for judgeships simply because they were conservative Christians. They fought hardest against non-white conservative Christians. If conservatives object to any non-white for any reason, they are labeled racist. Liberals and Democrats seem to set different sets of standards for conservative Christians than they do for themselves.

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

[Magnolia]

The greater challenge is creating a world in which Hussein and his ilk can no longer exist and terrorize people. There are probably 20 equally brutal regimes in power, and 100's of deviants willing to risk all to take their place.

The beauty of America is the ability to protest and gripe and live without worry that we or someone we love will be dragged off and shot by those in power. I don't like Bush for many reasons, but I respect his desire to allow others to enjoy the same freedon from fear that I enjoy.

His cowardice is shocking - I'd have thought he'd kill himself....

The witchy witch witch of south central NC.

[Nitro's Mommy]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dcm:
Nitro's Mommy - My comment was in reference to how hard the Democrats and the liberals fought against some very qualified individuals who GW nominated for judgeships simply because they were conservative Christians. They fought hardest against non-white conservative Christians. If conservatives object to any non-white for any reason, they are labeled racist. Liberals and Democrats seem to set different sets of standards for conservative Christians than they do for themselves.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The thing to me that is scary to have mainly all conservative Christians in executive/judicial/legislative power is the lack of diversity. America is so diverse we NEED diverse representation to truly meet the needs of people. I live in the Bible Belt but there is still a good number of liberal Christians and Democrats, alongside the majority of conservative Republicans in our state. But thats the beauty of it, our differences make the world beautiful. I have many republican friends, who are great friends, we just don't discuss politics--our if we do, we take it light heartedly and stop when its time so no one gets hurt!

"We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces, singing Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses." --some country song http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[lauriep]

dcm, did it occur to you that the Dems objected to these individuals NOT on ethnic or religious backgrounds, but on their stated positions and voting histories on things that ARE important to this country?

Somewhere earlier on this thread, someone asked for the definition/difference between "liberal" and "conservative." I think the very words offer that definition. "Liberal" in the Webster's New World Dict. means, among other things "not restricted to the literal meaning, not strict," "tolerant of views differing from one's own, broad-minded, specifically, not orthodox or conventional," "favoring reform or progress, as in religion, education, etc., specifically favoring political reforms tending toward democracy and personal freedom for the individual, progressive."

Whereas "conservative," from the same dictionary, means "tendingto preserve established traditions or institutions and to resist or oppose any changes in these," "moderate, cautious, safe." (Sorry, there just aren't as many meanings to this word!)

From these two definitions, I take that conservatives want to maintain a more strict interpretation of things, be they law, religion, personal freedoms. Liberals, who I choose to align myself with, are more free-thinking, tend to allow people the freedom to be who they are as individuals, and don't try to limit those freedoms (broadly speaking, of course). When it comes to conservatives wanting to TAKE my personal freedoms and choices away from me, often for religious reasons even though I don't share those religious beliefs, or liberals who take a much more "live and let live" attitude, well, to me, there is no question....

Laurie

[This message was edited by lauriep on Dec. 15, 2003 at 11:35 AM.]

[Nitro's Mommy]

Amen LaurieP!!!!

"We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces, singing Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses." --some country song http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[relocatedTXjumpr]

I dont care what your religouse beliefes are, what race you are, what polical party you side with, where youlive, what your income is, what kind of car you drive...if you choose to hurt someone, or many people in anyway, then you need to face justice. If you kill many people because they do not agree with you then you need to face justice. if you threaten my homeland and my freedoms and my right to be ME, by showing "agression" then you need to face justice.
It is my right as a citizen of this country to be who I am, not who someone else wants me to be. We all dont have to agree on everything, thats what makes this country so great.
If you dont like the way this country is run then get up and run for yourself, maybe you can do a better job.

B & B Sport Horses
Albums updated! New pictures or Rudy and Taylor!

http://community.webshots.com/user/ga_jumpr

Dont put the cart before the horse, unless he knows how to push it of course. ~~ Pat Green

[Phaxxton]

I'm sorry, but the basic dictionary definitions of liberal and conservative don't accurately represent the difference between political conseratives and political liberals in the United States - AT ALL.

I, believe it or not, have taken part in a lot of activism, usually on liberal issues and I consider myself a Republican. The most intolerant, closed-minded people I have ever met were liberals. They were intolerant of people with differing political beliefs, myself included. But I'm not going to go around and make statements that all liberals are close-minded.

LaurieP's interpretation of what liberals and conservatives in government want is oversimplified and inaccurate, IMHO. Please explain how conservatives want to take away your personal freedoms.

Seriously, read the history books and the development of conservative politics in the US. Conservatives favor fewer regulations, freer trade, and more freedom in business. They favor a smaller government with its people less heavily regulated. I'm sorry, but I really don't see where conservative politicians are taking away your personal freedoms more so than the democrats.

And where on earth is all this religious talk coming from? The vast majority of our government - BOTH LIBERALS AND CONSERVATIVES are Christian. Now you can't be a Christian and serve in government? Or is just that if you are a conservative and CHristian, then you can't possibly put aside religious beliefs when making decisions, while liberal Christians can? What about other religions?

JFK was a Catholic and he certainly was't conservative.

I get really, really upset when I listen to people STEREOTYPE anyone or any group. All of the sudden it's just fine to bash conservatives, bash Christians, bash anyone in the majority. Every group is deserving on criticism, but one's criticism should come from actual experiences and not from stereotypes. Guess what I'm a conservative Republican. I am against the death penalty. I worked for nonprofits and work to support the rights of sexual minorities. You may be surprised what the other side is really like if people would put aside their differences and actually LISTEN to each other.

The government is messed up, and it's not because there's a Republican in the Whitehouse. They're all a bunch of Republocrats, anyway. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[dcm]

From lauriep<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"tolerant of views differing from one's own, broad-minded, specifically, not orthodox or conventional," <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Not any political liberals I've ever met.

From Nitro's Mommy<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The thing to me that is scary to have mainly all conservative Christians in executive/judicial/legislative power is the lack of diversity. America is so diverse we NEED diverse representation to truly meet the needs of people.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
After 8 years of liberal Democrat rule, we are nowhere near having "mainly all conservative Christians" in those positions. Each elected administration appoints judicial positions. I won't argue this point with you any longer as you, Christian or not, are one of the ones that I fear will someday eliminate Christianity from public view because it "offends" someone.

No more religious-related posts. It is not the point of this thread. The point is to celebrate, yes CELEBRATE, the capture of Saddam Hussein.

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

[CoolRunnings]

I sure am darn happy they caught him. I don't believe you should ever say you aren't proud to be an American, especially since it's because you ARE American you are allowed to say those type of things.

Mary B

[Doron]

Is bosh happy now atleast?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Starlady- nice to know there is more people from Israel on this BB.
Sound bit painful to sit like that for 2 weeks, I'm glad I was only 1 year old http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by deltawave: Saddam had EVERYTHING to do with the mass slaughter of HALF A MILLION of his own people. That's good (bad) enough for me!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Deltawave, it might have been enough for me, too, but it was so far down the line in reasons we went to war, it was almost an afterthought. We went to war because Saddam was acquiring nuclear weapons, had WMD and was going to use them on us if we did not stop him first. The fact that he was a dispicable piece of humanity only started getting tossed into the mix when it polled better than those ever elusive WMD.

We had NO humanitarian policy with Iraq. If we wanted to get together with a bunch of other countries and agree to overthrow the existing govt and, oh yeah, have a plan for what came later rather than assuming we were going to be met by the flower throwing natives, I might have been able to sign on to that.

If we had worked the diplomacy angle on the basis of massive human rights violations, we might have been able to get somewhere. Instead, we lied, dissembled, prevaricated and pretty much made a mishmash of the situation. Thank God Saddam's military strength was even less than we anticipated.

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Please explain how conservatives want to take away your personal freedoms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the Patriot Act. I just don't get how someone can be conservative and support a bill that allows secret searches, or support a policy that allows an American citizen to be held for months wihout an attorney, without being charged of a crime, or without a trial. The Constitution I grew up with does not allow those things.

I am a patriot. I worship the Constitution. Sometimes I am at odds with my country's leaders or policies, and I will say so to anyone who asks. However, I still love my country - just as it's possible as a parent to still love and support a child even if you're lecturing her about this or that behavior. The two responsibilities are not at odds; indeed, it would be unloving and irresponsible to act any other way.

I am pleased that Hussein is caught and that he will be tried. I hope he will be tried in an international court, one with the utmost credibility around the world. And I hope it means that the insurgency in Iraq will weaken and end.

As for bringing the troops home, I really would like to see that, but my philosophy is, "You break it, you bought it." Until it really is established with a strong and peaceful new government, I believe it is our responsibilty to stay (though perhaps using more international troops). If we don't, conceivably the result could be even worse than Hussein - a Taliban-style government with feuding warlords and armed factions. We're still in Korea 50 years later - I'm hoping we'll do better here.

[Quinn]

Midge, in my most humble opinion you have managed to state your case eloquently. You show a notable lack of hysteria and an even more notable amount of knowledge without hyped emotion. My hat is off to you. While our recently departed Prime Minister didn't give me much reason to respect him, what he did do was stay strongly opposed to invading a country for the wrong reasons.

http://community.webshots.com/user/ballyduff

"If you are going through hell, keep going." ~Churchill~

[SillyHorse]

The real difference between liberals and conservatives (at least lately in America): "Liberals want information; conservatives want ammunition."
(Al Franken)

SillyHorse
~ You can do anything if you want it bad enough. That is why we see so many people who can fly. ~

[lauriep]

Thank you, Midge, for saying what I so strongly believe.

I AM glad they caught Saddam. We probably would have had to do something about him sooner or later.

The WAY we went about it and the WHY we went about it are what I have a problem with. And the way we have CONTINUED to thumb our noses at international opinion, rather than attempt to find a happy medium where we could get the support we so desperately need, and the other countries could live with our reasons for needing them.

Laurie

[nhwr]

I supported the invasion of Iraq when we did it. Now I have questions. Where are those MWDs? Or does our intellegence just suck? Maybe now that Saddam has been captured, Iraqi's who were involved in the weapons programs may feel more comfortable about talking. If it turns out there really were no MWDs, I have a BIG problem with what has happened. I am glad the people of Iraq are free from Saddam. But I don't think there is much of a plan to help find a good democratic governement. We are withdrawing our commitment daily. While I think this has been an interesting exercise in understanding who our allies really are, we have made a lot of countries really nervous. How do the Saudis receive all this discussion of democracy in the Middle East? My guess is they don't love it.

Here is an interesting site for news I have been following lately.

http://www.alternet.org/

[Phaxxton]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by poltroon:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Please explain how conservatives want to take away your personal freedoms.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Read the Patriot Act. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have read the patriot act and vehemently disagree with it if you must know.

[dcm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:

Here is an interesting site for news I have been following lately.

http://www.alternet.org/<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Its nice to know people seek the truth through pure and unbiased reporting.

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

[nhwr]

The Patriot Act is a window into the mind of John Ashcroft. Mr Ashcroft makes J. Edgar Hoover look well adjusted, he is a paranoid and rabid ideolog. The Patriot Act compromises protection from unreasonable search and seizure and our right to privacy. It really does nothing to make us more secure. Do you really think we are better protected today from a terrorist attack than we were 4 years ago? I don't. But you gotta love the name. Question it and you are not patriotic http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif



dcm,

fyi that is just one of the sources I read and/or listen to. I just finished listening to Rush while doing my barn chores. altnet is no less "pure and unbiased" than he is http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Don't be naive. There is no such thing as pure and unbiased news. You have to read and make up you own mind. (Boy, you sure plowed through that whole site quickly http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif )

[Midge]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Quinn:
Midge, in my most humble opinion you have managed to state your case eloquently. You show a notable lack of hysteria and an even more notable amount of knowledge without hyped emotion. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ooohhh, ThankYou!! Please remember this moment when I am in a typographically incoherent rage because Pocket Trainer won't do Pro Bono work. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[dcm]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by nhwr:
(Boy, you sure plowed through that whole site quickly http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif )<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif I'm doing catch-up paperwork here at work and my eyes go crossed if I do it too long. Ya'll provide much more interesting reading than journal batches. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Plus, its fun to post and see what ya write back. Actually, in all seriousness, I do learn a lot from this.

PS - Rush was entertaining as usual today, wasn't he? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Do you also listen to Hannity? Almost as entertaining, but Rush just gives me that little giddy feeling when he gets on a roll! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

********
I'm just the mom.

Proud Member: Thoroughbred Clique, Danish Warmblood Clique, & Support Your Servicemen Clique

[CTT]

I am glad they got the SOB. I'm not going into the political issue but I do have two parents I am proud of. One is my mother who plowed the path for woman in the military. She was the first USN Commanding Master Chief. She was the first person to step on the JFK and sail aboard her during the Persian Golf War. My father retired as a captain in the USN and graduate of Annapolis. My father has gone into seas when no other captain in the US maritime fleat would. He made sure all our Jets had fuel to fly during many of the wars we have come into over the years. Christmas day he heads to the Persian golf to bring supplies to our troops and the people of Iraq.

On the subject of the WMD, Having lived the past 10 years near a storage facility and been in it those hills, they are deceiving. They look normal to me but you can travel down 18 stories into the pit and over 300 ac. of storage. It looks totally normal. There is much of the land not yet explored and many labs and storage areas are just like the one I live near. It could be miles upon miles to find surprisingly it is not that hard to move such labs or storage places overnight. It is not hard to hide these weapons if you have the manpower and equipment.

Not everyone agrees to us being there but we are entitled to our opinion, they were not. We could drive our cars and move up in life styles, they could not. We can go where we want and talk to whom we want, they could not. Be glad you can have this life and allowed to have it thanks to our government. Imagine waking up and having government officials kill your family while they sleep just because they saw you with a rebel force member, only asking directions. I do not think the backing would have been there if other countries did not have the proof. We did have some that did not join but the bottom line was they did business with this country and depended on keeping good relations with them.

Look back to Yugoslavia. Millions of people dead because the world ignored their cry for help. When we finally did go in the massive amounts of weapons they had could have destroyed many neighboring countries. All to destroy a race.

This was about the security of our country this time. Do you seriously think the news knows ALL? The government on many things only gives the news what they want to know. Not until the facts are in will we find out. The fact was that the Iraqi government violated the search for weapons imposed by the UN. They would not let the inspection be made which was a violation of the security clause we imposed in the first war. They could not provide proper documents and there was much speculation as to what they were up to. There many tense moments but the fact is they violated the treaty. There was much speculation as to why they needed some of the chemicals ordered from various other countries. You put the list together and you have the mixture of some massive problems. The fact is so far we have not found anything but that doesn’t mean they are not there. It is like a big archeological dig to find what they didn’t want us to see when we went in to inspect and they refused to let us inspect.

Be glad you don’t half to live the life they did. Most of us on this board are woman and the bottom line is we would not be on this board talking like we are if we lived there.

[JenEM]

I've tried to ignore this, but....

Thank you, Midge. Well stated and well informed! I agree with you.

As to the issues people had with the nominations for judicial positions put forth by Bush's administration, check out the article in the Dec. issue of Vanity Fair. The ones that stick out in my mind were a woman (from Texas?) who was vehemently anti-abortion, to the point of going beyond the letter of the law in court cases about it, and an African-American woman from California who was opposed to Affirmative Action, who was not well liked by her peers there.

[Midge]

Of course, one cannot ignore the humor involved in the mission to caputre Saddam being named Red Dawn and the possible sites. Wolverine One and Wolverine Two. Mr. Midge did have to point it out to me, but I just about laughed myself sick. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[poltroon]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by CTT:
They could not provide proper documents and there was much speculation as to what they were up to. There many tense moments but the fact is they violated the treaty. There was much speculation as to why they needed some of the chemicals ordered from various other countries. You put the list together and you have the mixture of some massive problems. The fact is so far we have not found anything but that doesn’t mean they are not there. It is like a big archeological dig to find what they didn’t want us to see when we went in to inspect and they refused to let us inspect.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
CTT, please thank your parents from us for their service. It is much appreciated.

I completely agree that Hussein was up to no good in general, and was sliding through any loophole he could. But I can't help remembering that the US cannot account for all its equipment (in particular I recall quite a few missing laptops) either. I doubt he had much in the way of weapons, but I have no doubt that he was watching and waiting for an opportunity to change that.

I hope that there will be a solid investigation of the intelligence and other issues, because clearly we didn't find what we expected, and we were sure we knew where things were. There are many possibilities (including that the weapons did exist and are now in even less friendly hands) that are all pretty bad.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Be glad you don’t half to live the life they did. Most of us on this board are woman and the bottom line is we would not be on this board talking like we are if we lived there.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Every day I think about how fortunate I am to have been born in the United States. However, Iraq has been actually one of the better Arab countries to be a woman in. Ordinary women could in general drive, could be educated, hold high ranking jobs, etc. Compare to, say, our buddies in Saudi Arabia.

He was a horrible, horrible guy. I'm glad he's gone. But please, let us not forget that there have been and continue to be world leaders who have been even more repressive: ie, it can be worse, and it is now our responsibility to ensure that the replacement government is better.

[nhwr]

dcm,

I read a lot of George Will and William F. Buckley. But I can't spend too much time on "the dark side", lol.

I am basically a liberal BUT I get bored with all the preaching to the choir media reporting. Plus some liberal positions just don't make any sense to me. So I like to read and listen to news from all different angles. I think it is the only way to really figure out what is going on. If you only consider opinions that re-inforce your position (instead of making you think), you are wasting your time,IMO.

[Nitro's Mommy]

I was caught in a crossfile poltic discussion (at a Christmas party of all things) My republican friend whom I love to death was doing serious Democrat bashing, and I just wasn't in the mood to talk poltics, so I polietly said, "Please excuse me while I refill my drink..." whilst making eye contact with my liberal friend across the table http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Sometimes beating a dead skunk just ain't fun anymore!!!

"We'll raise up our glasses against evil forces, singing Whiskey for my men, beer for my horses." --some country song http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[starlady]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doron:
Is bosh happy now atleast?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Starlady- nice to know there is more people from Israel on this BB.
Sound bit painful to sit like that for 2 weeks, I'm glad I was only 1 year old http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doron,

Ask your parents how it was to sit in the sealed rooms, I'm sure they will have a lot to tell you!

Where do you ride?

--s.

Under carefully controlled conditions of breeding, training, and care, a horse will do whatever it damn well pleases.

[Albion]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Mr Ashcroft makes J. Edgar Hoover look well adjusted<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, thank you, thank you, nhwr, you just caused me to spit a Tom Collins all over my computer (that'll be a sticky mess in the morning!). Ashcroft terrifies me. Absolutely makes my blood run cold. And that one was one of the funniest, most apt things I've read in a long time!

'O lente, lente currite noctis equi' - Ovid

[Doron]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by starlady:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Doron:
Is bosh happy now atleast?
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Starlady- nice to know there is more people from Israel on this BB.
Sound bit painful to sit like that for 2 weeks, I'm glad I was only 1 year old http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Doron,

Ask your parents how it was to sit in the sealed rooms, I'm sure they will have a lot to tell you!

Where do you ride?

--s.

Under carefully controlled conditions of breeding, training, and care, a horse will do whatever it damn well pleases. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My dad is a pilot, he wasn't home that time..
My mom sayed it wasn't so bad...I slept most of the time and my older brothers were 14 and 16 so they were big enough to sit quietly..

I ride at Ein- Hamifratz, it's a kibbuts in the north (next to Akko and Nariya)

[Marcella]

The media has their own agenda and decides what they think is important. They also put a liberal slant on most issues with the government because the media is owned mostly by people that are supportive of the emocratic party. For example, Viacom (huge company) owns the New York Post, LA Times, and several TV stations. The New York Post and LA Times is as liberal as you can get. Dont' think that because you read those papers you are well informed of world reconstructing issues, because you are not. Viacom also gives lots of money to the Democrats, who in turn protect them. The shield the liberals hide behind saying they will protect the little people is just a shield. They do it to get other people's votes, and then protect the big businesses that they denounce because those businesses give money to them. Marc Rich, for example and the millions of dollars he gave to the Clintons after being pardoned for $48 million dollars of tax fraud.

Just think of that next time you hear the liberals saying that myself and my tax dollars are responsible for paying for so and so's healthcare. I hate entitlement. This government owes you nothing except protection, which many people seem to have forgotten.

There will be a lot of stuff to come out of this development. There have been many countries helping Iraq. Syria and Iran are next.

Anyhow, I am getting off my tangent. I am going to go ride my beautiful horse now.

TS Clique*Chestnut Horse Clique*GPA Clique*Amateur Rider Clique*

[Ride'emCO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sea Monkey:
I thought he looked like Santa Claus.

Merry Christmas America. ;D<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's so funny! I had friends over for the weekend, and we turned on the TV with the sound low when we all woke up. The first thing that we saw was the video of Saddam in the examining room looking all wooly and gross. Joe says, "Hey, it's Bad Santa!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Then we turned up the volume and listened and heard what was happening, we couldn't believe it! Yay for our troops! We took care of Bad Santa!

[Ride'emCO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by khobstetter:
_NOW..#1.._ It is AMAZING to me that people still reduce this issue to 9-11...9-11 was the straw that _BROKE THE CAMELS BACK!!_ Get it ?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

This is the "leader" that slaughtered masses, chopped up fathers while his their wives and children watched..hung and be headed collage age students in the town square because they voiced an opinion...

_If he ever were to get out..I PRAY he lives right next door to you people who are mad at the USA for taking him down..may he be YOUR neighbor, may he decide the fate of YOUR father, may he "play" with the future of YOUR children!!!!_

_AND ...#2_ I was in Germany when the plnes hit and I got stuck there an extra week, I go there several times of year. I did an article on Towerheads for Kenny about the people and their resistence...

Simply put..they (for the most part) were NEVER against the war..they are so war "tired" on their own land they simply were afraid of their neighbor and the retaliation he WOULD show them!!! I stood in the middle of Hamburg at the base of a Church steeple that was about 20 stories high...thats ALL that was left of that entire block after the last war.

Until we have WAR on our own land - we have no right to judge, until we see our cities leveled - we have no right to judge, until we live UNDER air planes bombing our omes and cities and schools - we have no right to judge, until we have MILLIONS of people exterminated on our own land we have no right to judge!!!!

I'll try to post the link to the story, or copy some for here.

I for one an glad my grandchildren will NEVER have to worry about this _ONE!!!_

And as for you guys who say WE SHOULD STAY OUT OF THE FIGHT BECAUSE "there are lots of these guys there"...you are right, there are more...AND AT LEAST WE HAVE GOTTEN RID OF ONE!!!!

While I do not agree, I understand

http://www.foxpointefarm.com
http://www.go-sho.org<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Many, Many good points here.

My own:
1. During the Iran/Iraq war, when they were trying to negotiate a ceasefire, Saddam's minister of Health suggested that if Saddam were to step down for just a little while, the ceasefire would go through more easily, and then he would return to power. Saddam said thank you very much for your opinion, and jailed the man. When the Minister's wife begged him to return her husband to her, Saddam said, of course, right away, and returned the man to his wife posthaste in a bag, cut into pieces!!!

2. It amazes me that people rely so much on what the media has to say on something like this. Keep in mind that we have incredible intelligence capabilities in this country, and our president and his advisors have way more information than the average citizen will ever know. Have a teensy bit of faith that our leaders are making these decisions based upon a LOT of information.

That's not to say we should all follow like sheep, just that we do not have all the facts, like some seem to think we do.

[Ride'emCO]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by elizabeth:
Sometimes I think to myself "I'm a smart woman. I know what I'm talking about. I can arm-chair-quarterback George Bush's military actions. The dumb punk."

Then I look over to consult with my cabinet members, my intelligence advisors, military experts, international affairs gurus, and I realize I don't freakin' have any!!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

YES!!! You rock!

[BaldEagle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ride'emVA:

Many, Many good points here.

My own:

That's not to say we should all follow like sheep, just that we do not have all the facts, like some seem to think we do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Anyway it seems that those "facts" are not even needed... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>A leading Shia cleric called for Mr. Hussein's execution, a call likely to be echoed across Iraq where millions have suffered and hundreds of thousands were killed by the regime.

"We want Saddam to get what he deserves. I believe he will be sentenced to hundreds of death sentences at a fair trial because he's responsible for all the massacres and crimes in Iraq," said Amar al-Hakim, leader of the Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution in Iraq.

Only last week, the Iraqi Governing Council established a war-crimes tribunal and the Bush administration is expected to hand Mr. Hussein over to the council, although not until after months of interrogation.

The Globe and Mail - 'The tyrant is a prisoner' (http://www.globeandmail.com/servlet/ArticleNews/TPStory/LAC/20031215/MAIN1SUB15//?query=Saddam)<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[SaudiHunter]

Yes,

And I hope our government will use this Saddam experience as a lesson...be VERY careful who you support with money and weapons in regional conflicts..Less than 20 years since the Iran-Iraq war and Saddam started harboring terrorists and becoming an international rogue.

~~"a chicken in every pot and a zonkey in every barn"~~prospective motto for the modern New Deal

[BaldEagle]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SaudiHunter:
And I hope our government will use this Saddam experience as a lesson...be VERY careful who you support with money and weapons in regional conflicts. Less than 20 years since the Iran-Iraq war and Saddam started harboring terrorists and becoming an international rogue.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

SaudiHunter:

There is nothing to learn here and politically speaking, what you have said is completely meaningless.

I explain: Alliances are made out of convenience in a certain moment and are undone by the same way at another.
Not to go too back in History, I just start around WW II.

To stop the Germans the US was an ally of the Soviet Union and sent large shipments of war material to that country under a lent lease agreement. The war wasn’t even finished and Roosevelt died. Truman changed everything and the cold war was born with the two most formidable foes in mankind’s history…

To contain the Iranian revolution within Iran’s borders the Western Nations (not only the US) supported Saddam against them.
As soon as the war was finished that aid stopped and when the activities of Saddam were taken into account, most of the Nations stopped dealing with him, with the exception of Russia, Germany, Japan, France and Arab countries, mainly Saudi Arabia.
Much of that money was extended by Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, in part to help Saddam Hussein finance his war against a shared antagonist, Iran.

“Iraq's indebtedness is estimated at about 400 percent of GDP, making it a heavily indebted country. Among key lenders belonging to the Paris Club of creditors, Russia and France are each owed about $8 billion by Iraq, while its loans to Germany total about $4.3 billion. The biggest single creditor is Saudi Arabia, to which Iraq owes $25 billion.”

Russia went as far as asking the US for guarantees that all debt would be paid and that THEY would continue as main suppliers of Iraq to support the war effort… When the US failed to give such guarantees, they turned against it…
Now, just GUESS WHY those countries, the main lenders, were against the war…

When he invaded Kuwait a coaliation of nations was formed against him an army to take him out.

To stop the Soviets in Afghanistan the US and the CIA armed certain anti-soviet groups that really helped to drive them out. One of such groups is now Al-Quaeda…the #1 enemy of the US with the US military hunting them.

Politicians sometimes have no option but to choose between bad things the lesser evil and that will never change http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[This message was edited by BaldEagle on Dec. 17, 2003 at 03:25 PM.]