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CatchMeIfUCan
Dec. 14, 2011, 05:55 PM
...this horse?

15.2 hand, 12 year old OTTB. Been eventing since he was 5 up to training level. Sound and no previous problems and will pass the vet check. Cute, cute, cute and fun personality. Gets low 30s in dressage and rarely has a rail. However, he has completed very few of his novice/training runs without XC penalties and been eliminated quite a few times over the past 2 years. Previous competitions under a different owner show a better record. Horse sold for low-5 figures 2 years ago. Potential to turn him into a jumper, but he will max out at around Level 4 (3'9"). Might be able to do Level 5s (4'). Horse is in Florida.

I am the buyer in this situation, so definitely not trying to advertise!

Thank you!

Blugal
Dec. 14, 2011, 06:06 PM
Personally, I would pass and find something that does not have XC issues.

equinedriver
Dec. 14, 2011, 06:09 PM
Not more than 5K

CatchMeIfUCan
Dec. 14, 2011, 06:40 PM
This is a unique situation, and I will (hopefully) be buying the horse but want to make sure I am not overpaying.

smilesthepony
Dec. 14, 2011, 06:56 PM
Well, if we look at the positives you have-
An animal which has proved to be sound for work
Still has many years left in him, assuming the refusals were not a sign of discomfort.
Solid lower level dressage and showjumping
Sounds like an ammy friendly horse as long as you do not want to go CC.

I would think 5-7 would be the top price range, assuming he is an easy ride, attractive, and has solid dressage basics. If I wanted to event said horse, I would pass, as I would personally rather an OTTB over a packer who has learned stopping is an option. In this market you can also find horses easily jumping 4 foot courses for 5k and under.

If this horse had something really special, maybe if he could carry a wee one around a course, or was able to move up the levels in jumping or dressage you could get more, but for a lower level dressage/jumper I would not imagine anyone spending more than 10k. Good luck with your purchase!

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 14, 2011, 07:04 PM
really folks???....he's worth more than 5K as a JUMPER. What he is...is not very marketable as an event horse unless his xc issues were rider related. As a buyer though, unless you lease to buy, it is hard to tell.

I have a nice event mare...with ME riding we win and don't have many issues xc. With her young rider now...they have trouble getting around novice as the mare takes advantage of her. But as soon as she starts to ride...they will be rocking around prelim.


This boy sounds like a solid child/adult jumpers. Those go for 10-15K and up around here. His size shrinks his marketability...and age...but as a jumper, depending on how ridable...he still has value.

CatchMeIfUCan
Dec. 14, 2011, 07:14 PM
His XC problems are mostly rider related, but it takes a good rider to get him around XC cleanly as he can have some confidence problems with a certain type of fence. I hear the current rider has installed a new problem type fence for him though, so there will be two bogey fences for him on course now. He is not a super easy ride, but he is well trained. He is very particular about contact and upper body position so suits a soft and tactful rider the best and this is the type of rider he would need to jump 3'6"-4'.

I definitely agree that he is more marketable as a jumper, but I will event him. I have asked the same question on the hunter/jumper board to get their ideas as well.

He will be getting appraised by an independent trainer, and this will be the final asking price. I am struggling with what type of trainer (jumper or eventer) is fair as an appraiser to both the seller and me, but a trainer that buys and sells lots of horses is a must first and foremost.

Thanks for your opinions so far. I can only afford a certain price so am making myself sick thinking about his upcoming appraisal, and you all are giving me ideas so I can be more realistic!

Beam Me Up
Dec. 14, 2011, 07:25 PM
Agree he is probably a CH/AD jumper, and agree on the 10-15K range, assuming he hasn't done recognized jumper shows yet.

I sold a very similar horse a few years back--11 yo, 16h OTTB, many N/T, maybe 5-6 P, but not a huge xc fan at any level, so showed him in the L4 at HITS a couple times and in the local modified jumpers.

I don't think it would have been reasonable for event people to buy him as a project for the amount he was worth as a jumper.

deltawave
Dec. 14, 2011, 08:00 PM
Not worth a dime to me, but if he had a solid season of showing at the jumpers and I were shopping for that kind of horse, maybe up to 8-10K. However, I have never gone shopping for a jumper.

FlightCheck
Dec. 14, 2011, 08:04 PM
I wouldn't purchase him nor recommend him to a student. Nor would I take him on as a "project to sell later".

For a lower level jumper or dressage horse, maybe. But NOT for an eventer.

The time and money spent trying to fix his problems would be more productively spent on a horse that has a good record *or* is totally new to XC with no baggage.


But it is your theoretical money, so $5k if he passes vet including xrays.

oldgreypony
Dec. 14, 2011, 08:56 PM
In this market you can also find horses easily jumping 4 foot courses for 5k and under.


Really? Where?

3phase
Dec. 15, 2011, 10:31 PM
How's that saying go...'don't blame the horse, blame the rider'....
He may have some confidence issues due to his rider that doesn't mean that he couldn't go clean around xc. I've screwed up a few times and been elimated on course or gained xc penalties because of my silly mistakes. Nothing to do witht he horses-they were only going where my eyes were or my not riding correctly. I think we've all been there ;) I worked for an Olympic rider that had water trouble with one horse-switched the horse to a different rider and now that horse is on the team. All riders ride differently.
I would go try him out see if you guys click and figure out if you can put the work in on him. He sounds really cute! I would put him in the $7500 range. I had a wonderful Appendix that had competed Novice and we trained T and Prelim together. Solid ammie/ YR horse. He was 13, passed vet check etc.I was asking $6,000 for him only coz I hadn't competed in a couple years (was worth $7500.) He went to a great YR for a bit of a cut in price. Depending on his price you could always talk them down too. Depends what you want to do with him too-probably has at least 4 yrs left of showing if he stays sound. Keep after or sell? Would you sell in the H/J or Event market?
:)

yellowbritches
Dec. 15, 2011, 10:53 PM
He is very particular about contact and upper body position so suits a soft and tactful rider the best and this is the type of rider he would need to jump 3'6"-4'.

This would make him extremely tough to sell in the Ch/Adult jumper market, as well, in my book. Like most things that are meant for kids and/or amateurs, they need to be forgiving and able to take a joke. Horses that are "particular" aren't going to be able to deal with the occasional missed distance, etc. He doesn't sound like he's got that kind of temperament. Most people looking in this market want steady characters who'll leave one out, chip in the short one, shake off a bad fence, and just keep jumping.

So, we've got a horse who gets the big E on xc and while it is a rider issue, he needs to be well ridden, needs a tactful ride over fences in the jumper level he'd be capable of, but is easy on the flat and scores decently, too. Sounds like a nice low level dressage horse to me. 5-12k depending on how fancy and what level he's capable of going out at tomorrow.

NeverTime
Dec. 15, 2011, 11:41 PM
Agree with YB. With the additional info about the specific ride he needs to jump well, why bother? If he needs to be nursed around a 3'6" course, it might be hard to find him the right ammy rider (ie, a person who is tactful, has upper-body control and particularly wants a smaller, older horse who maxes out at 3'6-4').
It doesn't take a particularly talented horse to event at training level or jump 3'6" and leave the rails up, so why not find one who will do it with less fuss? Or an event horse who actually enjoys XC and doesn't have such an ingrained stopping habit?
With a 7-year record of stopping on XC, plus the less-desired 15.2 height, this sounds like a pretty poor investment.
Also, I thought these "what's he worth?" threads are supposed to be against the BB rules. Have they relaxed on that? (Because I find them to be quite educational, regardless of whether someone is trying to advertise or not!)

fordtraktor
Dec. 15, 2011, 11:56 PM
This would make him extremely tough to sell in the Ch/Adult jumper market, as well, in my book. Like most things that are meant for kids and/or amateurs, they need to be forgiving and able to take a joke. Horses that are "particular" aren't going to be able to deal with the occasional missed distance, etc. He doesn't sound like he's got that kind of temperament. Most people looking in this market want steady characters who'll leave one out, chip in the short one, shake off a bad fence, and just keep jumping.

So, we've got a horse who gets the big E on xc and while it is a rider issue, he needs to be well ridden, needs a tactful ride over fences in the jumper level he'd be capable of, but is easy on the flat and scores decently, too. Sounds like a nice low level dressage horse to me. 5-12k depending on how fancy and what level he's capable of going out at tomorrow.

Agree with this. You are only going to get a higher price for a Children's/Adult Jumper that can pack a kid or nervous ammy around. If a jumper rider is good enough to ride that tactfully, they probably don't want a 15.2 3'6 horse. Or if they do, they aren't going to pay much for the privilege.

stevenest
Dec. 16, 2011, 02:54 AM
Not more than 7K! but I don't think it would have been reasonable for event people to buy him as a project for the amount he was worth as a jumper.

IronwoodFarm
Dec. 16, 2011, 05:30 AM
I'm curious about the OP's intentions for this horse. Is this a personal horse? Is this a project?

I'm also curious if the OP has actually ridden this horse, particularly jumped either stadium or XC. It's a far piece between FL and the OP's location.

I'd say if the OP has ridden the horse and wants a personal horse, then okay. But as a project for resale -- no. As for price, my boarder has a slightly younger OTTB, who is taller, sound and has a record of E's on XC. He's for sale and the price is definitely well south of 5K. The OTTB market is flooded here.

bornfreenowexpensive
Dec. 16, 2011, 06:14 AM
He is not a super easy ride, but he is well trained. He is very particular about contact and upper body position so suits a soft and tactful rider the best and this is the type of rider he would need to jump 3'6"-4'.



I agree with others...this additional fact would lower his price to me. He might be most marketable as a dressage horse if he is easy to ride there....otherwise...an older short horse that is difficult to ride, but might be one to learn a lot on...will be very difficult to sell at any price.

gully's pilot
Dec. 16, 2011, 08:18 AM
the horse you describe is not something I would buy, as I put willingness to jump xc above about anything else.

I just bought a horse for my daughter that sounds a lot like yours--same age, breed, personality--except he's less talented at dressage and packs around low level xc, and doesn't require a particularly good ride. I paid $5500.

lawchick
Dec. 16, 2011, 04:46 PM
While I do think these threads are interesting, we probably need to recognize that they are only of limited value because of the difference in markets at the lower levels.

Most people aren't likely to travel too far for a horse in the
15k and under range so there isn't really a "national" market. I guarantee that what I can buy for around 10k in Idaho and surrounding states will be vastly different than what I would pay in California or on the eastern seaboard.

lawchick
Dec. 16, 2011, 04:48 PM
Of course, I would also add that we all value different traits in a different way. For some riders, having a horse you have to kick up to the jump is the best thing for learning and confidence building. For other riders, it would be torture.:winkgrin:

enjoytheride
Dec. 16, 2011, 04:59 PM
As a long time rider of difficult horses I will say do not assume that a new rider will fix a problem right up.

I think the horse personality will determine if this is a problem easily fixed, a problem fixed not so easily by great riding, or a problem never fixed by fantastic riding.

Even if the horse schools well, it can get pretty expensive (and frustrating) being eliminated on XC at shows until you figure out the buttons or lack of buttons.

CatchMeIfUCan
Dec. 16, 2011, 06:03 PM
I didn't want to air everything out there as it doesn't really pertain to his pricing, but I bought this horse off the track when he had just turned 3. He was my first horse, and I owned him for 7 years. I sold him two years ago due to finances to a young rider with a first right of refusal, and we are in the process of trying to find an appraiser so that I can buy him back. I am IN LOVE with him; his name is tattooed on my back! I don't care if he just sits and looks pretty for the rest of his life. I just want to see his absolutely adorable face hanging over the stall door every morning. I have had previous success with him as an eventer, and since I was the one who did all the training on him, I believe I can be successful on him in the future with lots of time to build his confidence back up.

That's why I want this horse back :winkgrin:

It's hard to describe what type of ride he takes. He can take a joke but needs a soft, tactful rider. I have buried him so bad to a fence before, given him no release over the fence, and he continued to gallop on and jump the next fence well. I have not added enough leg, and he did a one to two stride triple in a 2 to 2 and then five strides to a triple bar leaving up all the rails. He will not forgive someone with forward shoulders thought, and he needs a confident, forward thinking rider to be successful. At 3'3" and below, he could pack someone.

I can't afford to pay 5 digits for him as I am just starting out my career and will be making terrible money in a big city. I would be sick if I couldn't get him back, but I need to be realistic that he might be appraised at over $10,000.

Thanks everyone for all your help! It will just come down to what the appraiser says now!

FlightCheck
Dec. 17, 2011, 08:32 AM
Ah, a heart horse.

That is an entirely different matter!!

Here's hoping the two of you can be reunited.

deltawave
Dec. 17, 2011, 10:25 AM
I am IN LOVE with him

Well, then, he's priceless. :) Good luck! Why don't you just make an offer for him that is within your budget?

Carried Away
Dec. 20, 2011, 04:45 PM
Honestly, if the horse hasn't been shown in the Jumpers yet and has XC stops on his record...the price should be much lower than what he is "capable of".

I work for an equine insurance agency, and justification of value is proven by show results/training expenses, not what a horse is capable of. I'd offer 5K and stress that you will give him an excellent home. Good luck!

ACMEeventing
Dec. 20, 2011, 08:14 PM
Well, then, he's priceless. :) Good luck! Why don't you just make an offer for him that is within your budget?

Agreed.

An appraiser can say whatever they want, it all comes down to what is the seller willing to take and what is the buyer willing to pay. Make the offer that is within your budget and see what happens.

Good luck, hoping you get reunited!!

Rainier
Dec. 20, 2011, 11:33 PM
Well, then, he's priceless. :) Good luck! Why don't you just make an offer for him that is within your budget?

Agreed. I would hope that the owners would understand ... it sounds like your budget is somewhere in the ballpark anyhow??

fooler
Dec. 21, 2011, 11:30 AM
Heart Horse. . . Make an honest offer to current owners. Hopefully they will accept so you two will be reunited;)

purplnurpl
Dec. 21, 2011, 01:10 PM
Not more than 5K

this.

and frankly. they over paid for him two years ago.

Mid 5 figures for a 10 year old training level horse. that's pretty hefty.
Mid 5 figures is something like: (40K-60K)!!

edit:
just read the entire post. If you really want him back, offer as much as you can. That way if you don't get him, you'll always know that you did everything you could.

lv4running
Dec. 21, 2011, 02:30 PM
Any updates on this yet? Hoping you have some good news to share.

CatchMeIfUCan
Dec. 22, 2011, 01:48 AM
Lol purplnurpl, I meant LOW five figures. Finals brain!!

I have no update, but I really wish I did! I leave for a working student position in New Zealand in 6 days. Thankfully, one of my best horsey friends will take care of him for cheap if I do get him back.

They want to get back what they paid for him, but I can't afford that going into an entry level job. I don't think he's worth that, but he's worth what someone will pay. Maybe they can get that.

His final price will be dictated by what the independent appraiser prices him at per the contract. That's why I'm so nervous about it! If it is too high, I will offer what I am capable of paying. I mean, they won't have to pay board or show expenses to get him exposure if they sell him to me quick!

My profile pic is from a photo shoot my mom did of us the day he left :sadsmile: My heart starts to flutter when I think of galloping him and kissing his cute nose!

NeverTime
Dec. 22, 2011, 07:43 AM
His final price will be dictated by what the independent appraiser prices him at per the contract.


That will be his starting price for you. His final price will be whatever somebody is willing to pay, and I can't imagine anyone wanting to shell out five figures on a smaller, older, confirmed stopper.

Of course they want to get out what they paid; so does everyone who bought a house six years ago and has it on the market in this economy. Their chances sound equally good as those homeowners.

So, I totally get the heart horse thing, but it sounds like, at this moment, you are their best hope for selling him and, if you can contain your eagerness to get him back, you'll still be able to get him for a reasonable price. Yay you!

What are your long-term goals for him, after you get to go for a gallop together? It sounds like he's going to sit around costing money, getting older but no better trained, while you are in NZ (have fun; sounds like a great opportunity!) When you come home, early-career salaries usually only allow us to keep one horse. Will this lovable but older, less talented fellow still be The One after you go to NZ and (potentially) get all jazzed on competing at the upper levels?

If you truly don't care what he does, and just want to keep him and see his face for the next 20 or so years of his life, he's a very, very lucky boy. Best of luck to you both.

snoopy
Dec. 22, 2011, 08:22 AM
If you click with the horse then he is worth what ever you are willing to pay for him. I have always looked at horses this way. A horse may be "worth" something different to each and every rider.

CatchMeIfUCan
Dec. 22, 2011, 10:37 AM
NeverTime- I have my set price that I can pay, and this will be the highest I go. If someone comes and wants to buy him for even just $500 more, I have to let it go and hope they will love him as much as I do.

His sale money was set aside to buy another horse with when it was the right time for me (which is definitely not now!). This lump will be used to buy him back and for his expenses while I'm gone. At low 5 figures, I could have gotten a very nice young horse! But this guy deserves to have a forever home, so it's totally fine if he sits around costing money. He was my first horse and with all the crap he put up with while I was "training" him, he should get an early retirement. I'm fine with just feeding him treats for the rest of his life! Short term, I will look for a lease opportunity for him so he can get some work, and I can get a break on his expenses for the first year at my job. After the first year in training, my pay will go up a decent amount, and I will be able to pay to do more things with him. Long term, I would like to event him again, go to the AECs at any level, and do one preliminary if he can get his confidence back. These were my previous goals with him too.

Snoopy- Of course he's worth whatever someone will pay for him, and I'm prepared to watch him go to someone else if it's more than I can afford and think he's worth. I just hope that doesn't happen ;)

NMK
Dec. 22, 2011, 11:09 AM
If you really want to protect him for retirement I would ask the people that own him now to put your request as part of his bill of sale. Something to the effect that if he ever needs a retirement option call xxx write xxx etc. Mine all have this.

Nancy

IFG
Dec. 22, 2011, 12:04 PM
Even if he appraises higher, they may not be able to get someone to pay the higher price. So he may not end up under your Christmas tree, but he may appear in your Easter basket.

purplnurpl
Dec. 22, 2011, 12:43 PM
Even if he appraises higher, they may not be able to get someone to pay the higher price. So he may not end up under your Christmas tree, but he may appear in your Easter basket.

I agree with this.
I can't imagine an appraiser pricing a (at present time) confirmed stopper with recorded Es on his record.
Appraisers go with record, age, and I would think aww factor/appearance.

Luckily he's small. Small is usually priced lower.
And also, the market is crap. No one is buying anyway.