Did you read George Morris's article this week?

[Nikki^]

WOW! I love it! The riders are gorgeous over those fences. This is what I want to look like.

And those who told me to put my stirrups up 2 holes, pretend there is a hunt cap on my horse's withers and to "be the spring": It worked! I thank you all for helping me get closer to my goal! I'm jumping 3'6 and the fences seems so small now! My leg is getting tighter and I'm much more balanced since the stirrups went up. THANK YOU!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now it's time to jump grids without reins and stirrups!

[Nikki^]

WOW! I love it! The riders are gorgeous over those fences. This is what I want to look like.

And those who told me to put my stirrups up 2 holes, pretend there is a hunt cap on my horse's withers and to "be the spring": It worked! I thank you all for helping me get closer to my goal! I'm jumping 3'6 and the fences seems so small now! My leg is getting tighter and I'm much more balanced since the stirrups went up. THANK YOU!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Now it's time to jump grids without reins and stirrups!

[BAC]

Yes I read it and I hope some of today's pros read it too, especially his first paragraph. Those riders in the article look so "light and relaxed" no matter the size of the fence, they make it look so easy.

[Countryhawk]

Light and relaxed is a good description of their riding. Yes it does look easy, now why don't we look like that? The boots are so short compared to nowadays. I don't remember if mine were that short? Guess I need to drag out old pics.

[BAB]

By the way, Bobby Barker is really Bobby Burke.

[Janet]

Running martingales on hunters!

[ABBA]

But why are the horses in those pictures not jumping as tight and have their shoulders up as much as today's hunters. Yes, I know they use to jump bigger/airier (sp?)/more solid jumps back in those days - but I feel certain that In Disguise, Strapless and Rox Dene would jump like they normally do over those jumps. Just food for thought - not looking to start WWIII.

[Madame Butterfly]

Best article in awhile..obvious passion and being pissed at today's (ugh!) funky form...

Get more pissed, dude! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[ro's_rider]

wait, where was the article?

[2Dogs]

I can't wait to see this article - but as for hunters and how they used to look - I love this picture of me mum on her then top hunter!

[Madame Butterfly]

Luv the look on her face!!

[Countryhawk]

Hey looks like she has one of my old bridles. <g> AND jumping sans stirrups!

[J. Turner]

It's on the front page which you can only access if you are a subscriber.

I loved the article. It makes it apparent that GM is not looking for posed perfection. Relaxed is a great description. These guys (meant inclusively) don't look so tight that they go home with lower back spasms every night.

[Equitational]

I got a subscription for COTH for Christmas...But I still haven't recieved the first issue?! I heard is was good(on another BB).

[Madame Butterfly]

I like Nigel.

[buschkn]

I loved the article and the photos. It's so nice to see riders so relaxed and in tune with their horses. So many these days seem to work so very hard at it (H and J both), which to me detracts from the horse. I think all horses deserve and go better with a quiet ride, at least if brought along properly.

As for the person who suggested that we have better jumping horses today, I think we probably do, at least form-wise. We have refined the "ideal" hunter a bit and people are now producing horses more specifically for that. I do not think that todays hunter shows better form b/c their riders are ducking and loosy-goosy in the tack. No way. They are simply amazing athletes. A lot of the old school horses were, too, but I think jumpers was more popular than hunters, back in the day, and/or there was more cross-entering between.

Anyway, really liked the article and examples he used.

[SED]

Can someone reproduce the article, even if they can't reproduce the pictures?

Pretty please? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

This article is archetypal GM. It is the GM that says it like it is... and I don't mean to just "not famous" clinic riders... but to everyone....the known, the unknown, the rich, the poor...

It is the GM of 1960. No fear. "You don't like the truth,...well, bite me...!" attitude http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

That's what we love....

Uh, some more, please... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Cindeye]

Good work Nikki! Thanks for the progress report. We expect new pics of the "amazing legs of steel" soon http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

This was a great article. GM at his best.

For those who wanted a repro, I don't think COTH would allow that unless a mod posted it...that's why they sell subscriptions, ya know!

[Madame Butterfly]

Maybe a mod will...

[Nikki^]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
This article is archetypal GM. It is the GM that says it like it is... and I don't mean to just "not famous" clinic riders... but to everyone....the known, the unknown, the rich, the poor...

It is the GM of 1960. No fear. "You don't like the truth,...well, bite me...!" attitude http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif.

That's what we love....

Uh, some more, please... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I love the part where he said "And he is outgrowing his boots. So what! Boots are expensive." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
I love the part where he said "And he is outgrowing his boots. So what! Boots are expensive." http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I loved that too, he said it again referring to Raymond Burr's boots being dusty, something about him having been so busy riding so many horses and so what?

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by SED:
Can someone reproduce the article, even if they can't reproduce the pictures?

Pretty please? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sadsmile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If I knew how I would but the pictures are well worth the price of buying a single issue. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Nikki^]

SED: You have a PT.

[Renn/aissance]

Was it this week's issue of COTH?

[*In Style*]

Nikki can you PT me too some info on the article?

[BAC]

Its the January 7th issue.

[Glimmerglass]

Amazing you can ride hunters over solid 4' verticals with no ducking (quack, quack) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I doubt that timber 'Jazz Session' was skimming over at Upperville would've been too forgiving. Worth noting as well - nary a helmet to be seen on Raymond Burr or Morton "Cappy" Smith and I can't think Bobby Barker's hat would be approved.

[Allie Pal]

I loved the article! GM says it all. Did you see the expressions on the horses faces as well as the riders, they all looked happy and relaxed doing their jobs! When he is right, he is right!

[2ndyrgal]

Be still my heart! Relaxed riders, happy horses. If you learn and practice the basics, and never settle for less, those are the type of riders you get. On horses that could absolutely do it all, with riders that could as well. I learned to ride under these principles and teach from them as well. I detest the stiff, posed, awful riding that is seen too much today in the show ring, regardless of how nice the horse is. I hate seeing horses with no spark and animation because they've been lunged or ridden to death. It used to be that bar shoes on a hunter was a big no-no, it indicated a soundness issue, now it seems the norm! I read a post on this bb from someone who thought the number of wrinkles in their boots indicated that they spent $$$ and then "fit the profile" of an experienced, well-heeled rider. My faith was restored by GM's article, and I bet none of those "horsemen", man or woman, had a groom waiting to take their horse back to his stall so they could chat with their buddies. We have a great sport with tons of participation at all levels. I'd love to go to a show at the horse park and see relaxed riders and the occasional good natured playing up in the corner of an otherwise wonderful rhythmic round of fences, and a well turned out rider with great form, style and a smile, win or lose. I'd love to see GM's article reprinted in Practical Horseman. Maybe we can get the judges to add points for "artistic presentation" like they do in figure skating. Maybe I'll just find shows with, ahem, mature judges like George. Maybe some of the money that pays the pros to show will remember the good old days, and find that type of rider, and those people will be the ones the juniors want to emulate. And did anyone else notice that some of the riders were not using fluffy white saddle pads? Or seemed to have one at all? I wonder if one did that today, if it would make a difference or be remarked upon.

[MistyBlue]

Okay...I want to see this article. Can someone let me know how to buy an issue without being a subscriber?

[BAC]

Misty Blue - lots of tack shops sell them individually, if you can't find one I will pick up one for you. I don't know if the Chronicle will sell single issues.

2ndyrgal - I am old enough to remember when we didn't show with saddle pads.

And although its not approved I thought the tyrolean hat looked very dashing.

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
Worth noting as well - nary a helmet to be seen on Raymond Burr or Morton "Cappy" Smith and I can't think Bobby Barker's hat would be approved. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Glimmerglass, why is that worth noting?

[Boston Chicken]

He starts off saying this:

"Last month (and long before!), I was thumbing through issues of the Chronicle, and I was appalled by the style - or lack of style - of the top professional hunter riders in this country. Yes, I'm sure they have a great feel, sense of pace, and eye for a distance, but my fellow horsemen, that is not enough! - Chronicle January 7, 2005.

[Rye]

Oh dear....you mean ducked form with your big ole rump in the air is not the correct way to ride???? What about the lovely frozen-perched look ? Tell me that these are not going out of style??? ( I am kidding)

Ok, I'll retract my claws. I am just dreadfully bored with all the pics of the BNTs ducking, and all the little darlings perched upon their hunters.

Like him or not, George had a very true point.

[Boston Chicken]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Glimmerglass:
Amazing you _can_ ride hunters over solid 4' verticals with no ducking (quack, quack) http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yup. He talks quite a bit about fence height back then. Fences were much bigger - 4'6" fences in the Workings. No ground lines. Big spreads. Solid jumps.

I wasn't around for that http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif but I do remember my horse - who became my eq horse - used to do pretty well in the hunters even with a looser front end than you see today. Alas, that horse wouldn't get a second look now...GM mentions the horses' form in the pictures once or twice too though that's obviously not the focus of the article. Who can argue with today's beautiful horse form anyway?

[findeight]

I enjoyed it and the pictures...and read all of this before you head down the train track.

These are of some of the very top riders at the time and he did select these photos to show what a perfect ride is...I'm sure there were plenty that didn't.

I am not defending that laying on the neck position BUT the pictures in COTH are ADS for the horses and they are all in perfect form wrapped around the fence at the top of the arc. That's why they were selected.
Not to demonstrate perfect position of the rider. Some are not from the top tier of shows nor of the top pros either.

Now he would be dead on comparing these to some of the photos of Eq riders with chins between the horses ears and praying mantis hands. No excuse.

As GM says, there are so many more in the ring today. Like pro sports, when you keep adding more cities to let them have a team, you dilute the talent pool to a certain extent-more get a chance to play/coach but not all of them are on the elite level of the few who used to play/coach.
By making the sport more accessible to more clients and more pros, it allows a wider range of talent and style into the ring.

While I agree some of our leading pros have an unorthodox position, as long as they are out of the horse's way I am in no position to criticise.

I am an advocate of GM but don't necessarily agree with every word in every sentence. I understand what he was getting at, that pro's need to set a better example in position, be a better role model. I think he painted with a pretty broad brush comparing these photos of a few of the greatest horsemen of the last century with the garden variety sales ad in COTH.

We all, trainers too, need to strive for excellence and be the best we can every ride. That I agree with. But few will attain the levels of those pictured. That does not mean they are not good and effective riders though. Doesn't mean things were "better in the good old days" overall either.

Anybody can benefit from cutting out those pics and comparing them to their own to set a goal to work for.

[2ndyrgal]

I remember riding without saddle pads when I was younger. I have a horse that my saddle actually fits better without a pad. And I love all the old photos and movies when men wore hats. Dashing. And to the comment about todays horses having tighter front ends, if a horse is tidy with his front end, good with his hocks and is clearing a 4ft fence with ease, I'm thinking he probably has jump to spare. All of our old 4 ft horses easily schooled 5 ft at home without too much trouble. They weren't the OOOOOH AAAAAH horses of today, but were handsome, sensible and sturdy. They had the occasional pasture buddy boo boo, or and old scar from the hunt field, but were sound and sleek on hay, oats, and water, turned out daily, some even barefoot all the time. Where are those type of horses today? It seems like the horses all have specialties now.

[2ndyrgal]

Usually I agree with findeight. I think that though few will attain the levels of those pictured, many more could if they were willing to put forth the effort. It is simply easier to "perch and pose" than to take the time and effort to learn to ride effectively and properly. Students want to progress faster in and out of the showring, and someone somewhere figured out that on a reliable quiet horse if they could teach a rider to just hold a position and duck so they dont get left, which they learn by counting strides, they could move up. I'm sure that some of the people who send in photos in that other magazine to be critiqued by GM are probably mortified when he tells them they need to work without stirrups and drop back to crossrails. Too many riders think if they crank their stirrups up and their heels down, that means they have a good position. Stiff and artificial is neither effective, nor attractive. Now, there are "good and effective " riders with less than perfect equitation, but their balance and position, while not the ideal, are still correct. And as for the photos in the sales ads, I don't think GM was slamming any A/O s, I think that he and the rest of us who follow the shows and know who's who, know which ones are the pros. If the pros didn't ride like that, you can bet nobody who does is going to put their pic in COTH or any other publication to be held up for ridicule. And yes, things were better in the good old days, before video games, urban sprawl, cell phones and puke green breeches. But that's a different topic altogether.

[Janet]

I'll have to go back and reread it, but I DON'T think he was talking about current SALES pictures. I think he was talking about the pictures that accompany the articles.

I also think it has a lot to do with the fences/ courses. And with the judging priorities now vs then.

[Nikki^]

Ok, for those who want to see the article with pictures, please PT me with your E-mail and I'll get it to you as soon as you PT me.

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
Ok, for those who want to see the article with pictures, please PT me with your E-mail and I'll get it to you as soon as you PT me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

How is that possible, technically? I already have the magazine, just don't know how to go about emailing the article.

[Lucassb]

The article is available to subscribers in pdf format, which can be downloaded and emailed.

Edited to add, technically it possible. Whether it is appropriate to provide this content to non subscribers is another matter entirely.

[BAC]

Thanks Lucassb, I know PDF can't be copied and pasted, didn't realize it could be emailed. I'm not very computer literate. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Sebastian]

As I crawl out from under my rock -- more like swim, considering the weather of late in CA http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif -- I must just say, "Thank you, GM." There it is in black & white for all of you who attempt to defend the current "Style" in Hunter riding. Poor form is poor form. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

And, findeight, I must respectfully disagree, I think GMs article was very specifically directed at today's "top" riders and their poor form. I know we've discussed this to death, but the whole point of proper form is to be "out of the horse's way." Which, if you are ducking and out of balance -- you are NOT.

Now, back to my mud bath...
Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 2ndyrgal:
they could teach a rider to just hold a position and duck so they dont get left, which they learn by counting strides, they could move up. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey now...I can hold a position and duck pretty darn good, but I HATE, HATE, HATE counting strides. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I'd rather ride single fences off my eye rather than lines any day of the week.

I haven't seen the article...nor will I as I am not a subscriber and we have no tack shops around here that carry COTH.

[Weatherford]

Thank you George Morris is right!

And if you look at many of the pictures we have posted FROM the early seventies and BEFORE, you will see the same thing - happy, relaxed horses and correct rider positions! Even in the Juniors and Eq ! (the relaxed bit, that is!)

[Elliot]

If you call the Chronicle, I believe they will send a single magazine for a small fee. $2.50?

[Glimmerglass]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Elliot:
If you call the Chronicle, I believe they will send a single magazine for a small fee. $2.50? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A single copy, per the cover rate, is $2.95. Then factor in shipping http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BAC:
Thanks Lucassb, I know PDF can't be copied and pasted, didn't realize it could be emailed. I'm not very computer literate. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Yes, you can save the file, then email it as an attachment.

[Flirtygirl]

I agree that all the riders have AMAZING eq and ride better than i can imagine, but it seems that the sport has changed. I don't think it's any worse, just different. Also, those horses don't look as much like the type to "jump you out of the tack" as so many animals do today. In any case it was a GREAT article.

[MistyBlue]

They might not look as "jump you out of the tack" as some horses today (and those are actually quite seldomly seen these days...it's the exagerated posing of the rider that gives that impression) because the horses were judged differently back then. The horse had to move like an actual hunter..conserve energy and give a smooth, flawless ride. But plenty had rocket take-offs...the riders were schooled differently back then and could still hold a traditional position without impeding the horse...so it looked more smooth. The riders jumped with the horse...not for it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Flirtygirl]

^very true, good point

[findeight]

Let me rephrase my thought on this.

We are so specialized today that some pro riders often appearing on the pages of COTH do NOT teach and those that do, do NOT teach that exaggerated perch, even if they may do it.

So we get into the debate on is the pro athlete a role model responsible for influencing youth or are they just a pro athlete responsible for only their own performance?

I do not have the answer.

I do think the sport is more open/less elitist and, even if not all meet the highest standard as those in past years, that is more a good thing then a bad thing.

Just something to think about here and maybe stimulate some discussion...actually about 90% behind GM and his comments. Just think times have changes and so have some styles. Just as they changed when the forward seat took over in the 40's.

[incentive]

The article was great as were the photos, even though Bobby Burke was misidentified. To see this proper form at work today, one need look no farther than Joe Fargis!!! Now I'll go back to reading my AARP newsletter.

[Brydelle Farm]

I loffff GM! He is the true master and some of my peers have already mentioned, poor form is poor form and I think the horses today that we see jumping beautifully with their rider hanging off them, I just think to myself, how much better would that horse jump if its rider was actually riding, was off the horses neck, lightening up its forehand, supporting with the his/her leg, riding out of his/her hand with an automatic release, it would be even better than what we see today.

I hope and pray that we as hunter/jumper riders can find our way back to riding well, form is function, is not just to look good. It is to honor our horses, to ride them well, to keep them clean, to keep ourselves neat and tidy, to clean our tack, to braid our horses, to honor them, the horses we say we love and respect.

JMHO,

Danielle Russ, LVT
BS, BA, AS
Brydelle Farm (www.brydelle.com (http://www.brydelle.com))

[Madame Butterfly]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MistyBlue:
They might not look as "jump you out of the tack" as some horses today (and those are actually quite seldomly seen these days...it's the exagerated posing of the rider that gives that impression) because the horses were judged differently back then. The horse had to move like an actual hunter..conserve energy and give a smooth, flawless ride. But plenty had rocket take-offs...the riders were schooled differently back then and could still hold a traditional position without impeding the horse...so it looked more smooth. The riders jumped with the horse...not for it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wouldn't mind jumping for my horse, but he'd bit me on the ass... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif oh well.

[MistyBlue]

Thanks so much to both Nikki and the *other* MB...I got the article via e-mail and read it. Along with getting to see those amazing photos of the old greats!
That's what I meant about jumping with the horse instead of for it. (which usually turns out to be against it) Those positions are considered a hunter position because if you were out hunting...and the horse stopped...you stopped too. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
I was surprised to read that many folks seem to think that today's courses are bigger and tougher. The shows I see these days...along with all the photos I see in the magazines all have some light jumps on the smallish side, IMO. Back as short ago as the 70's a field hunter course could easily have a 4'x4' hedge in the adult ammys.
Anyways...it's an excellent article and good for Geroge for calling out the current positions. They look downright dangerous to me and years back (even in the 80's) you'd get the hairy eyeball from the judges for jumping so dangerously and looking like you were showing above your level with today's jumping styles/positions.

[SED]

I want to also give thanks for the emailed articles.

By the way, I got one chuckle from the article. Virtually everyone in it has their foot pretty far through their stirrups. Actually REALLY far through. GM mentions that that is a style issue that has changed, but implies that it is no big deal.

When my daughter took his clinic 1 1/2 years ago, he made a big deal to everyone about how far their foot was in the stirrup. But believe me, it was NOTHING compared to those photos.

So times change, even for GM. Having said that, the balance shown by a number of those riders IS impressive. But I don't think its that different than what I see in EQ riders today. What IS different is the hunter specialization. There, the idea that the form of the rider is irrelevant seems to dominate and you get the legs way back and the body way forward.

What I would like to know from those of you who are experts (as opposed to a nosey mother of a 3-3.6 rider) is the following: Do you believe that the exaggerated hunter "duck" DOES or DOES NOT help the current hunters show THEIR form? Is it just a trend or is it functional?

The reason I ask is that none of the hunters in the GM pictures in that article have the bascule and roundness of today's hunters that I see today, although that doesn't mean much. It just begs the question. If the reason for the duck is to promote the round jump, who the !@$# decided that a "round" jump was important? What does it have to do with the hunt field? When I grew up in Maryland, what people cared about in the hunt field was pace, a good mind and a brave jump.

Of course, I don't have a dog in this hunt since we don't show at these levels. At my daughter's level, form and function are still the same, and the GM ideal is still a goal since it is important as well to promote performance.

But what do those of you who show at a higher level think about this issue. What is the "chicken" and what is the "egg". Have we placed too much emphasis on the round jump which causes the bad form, or is the bad form extraneous and not necessary, and unrelated to the kind of ideal hunter we have today?

[Madame Butterfly]

Good questions, SED....especially the round jump/bascule thing...as connected with the "ducking" thing... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[baymare]

Thank you thank you thank you George Morris and the Chronicle for both the article and pictures. What a refreshing change from what we look at in both the horseshow and ad pages in the rest of an average issue. We see a highly stylized package when we look at pictures from the current showring; these older photos show harmony, fluidity, freedom, and confidence.

What I'd also like to bring up as far the "evolution" of the modern hunter style, is that it bears so little relationship to the original purpose of the sport. I.e., foxhunting. The purpose of a hunter is to safely and agreeably convey the rider over a variety of obstacles and a variety of terrain, at a gallop. Just as those oft-photographed and much-discussed position flaws of highly successful pros would lead to a short life-span in the hunt field, so too would the overjumping, hugely-basculing, fablulous moving horses they ride be exhausting and miserable to hunt all day long.

The horses in Mr. Morris' article were going a hunting pace, and jumping obstacles similar to those you might find out hunting. Their jumping style and the flowing yet secure position of their riders would be completely appropriate in or out of the show ring.

Now this is not a value judgement, just an observation. Today's hunters are something completely different. The courses, the competition, the proscribed style: there really is no more than a slight resemblance to the sport which started it all. So much so that I don't even know why they continue to call them "hunters".

aside to Janet: So in the context of Hunter who might actually hunt, why not a running martingale?

[Nikki^]

Ok, let's compare the correct style to the new age style.

http://community.webshots.com/album/250374977JKTrHq

All three horses are jumping the same (though Frank is jumping a bigger fence). What do you see? Like? Dislike? Let's coffee talk!

[Tiramit]

Thank you GM and the COTH! Not only was the article enjoyable, but it was a lesson and reminder rolled into one. The photos are fantastic.

In my office I have 2 photos from the 2004 Olympics: one of Beezie Madden and Authentic and the other of Chris Kappler and Royal Kaliber. Both riders could have been models for the aforementioned article and both horses have that same relaxed, willing expression.

And I dare say Royal Kaliber's effort over an Olympic oxer compares to that of a top hunter, yet Chris hasn't lost his eq. Hmm.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[ser42]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
Ok, let's compare the correct style to the new age style.

http://community.webshots.com/album/250374977JKTrHq

All three horses are jumping the same (though Frank is jumping a bigger fence). What do you see? Like? Dislike? Let's coffee talk! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh my.... that last picture! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[findeight]

Is that style, or a really crappy picture in that third photo of a really crappy effort?

It is pretty bad but maybe the guy doesn't always ride this way. Least I hope so.

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Tiramit:
Thank you GM and the COTH! Not only was the article enjoyable, but it was a lesson and reminder rolled into one. The photos are fantastic.

In my office I have 2 photos from the 2004 Olympics: one of Beezie Madden and Authentic and the other of Chris Kappler and Royal Kaliber. Both riders could have been models for the aforementioned article and both horses have that same relaxed, willing expression.

And I dare say Royal Kaliber's effort over an Olympic oxer compares to that of a top hunter, yet Chris hasn't lost his eq. Hmm.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You can find lots of pictures of jumper riders with beautiful eq jumping BIG fences, both in the old days and more recently, such as Beezie and Chris. I don't think fence size should be used as an excuse. And I don't think any of those people pictured in GM's article would have any difficulty maintaining their style on today's hunters either.

[Magnolia]

Just gonna pipe in - can't wait to see the article, but whenever I see old school photos, the riders look great. I'm wondering if it is because they all rode out and hunted, which gives you a more secure looking seat (think the good eventers). A lot of those pictures are similar to what you would see a good eventer looking like over a jump.

I don't think the older horses look as fancy as todays, but frankly, they look like more fun to ride. I'm not sure I would want to ride one of those back-cracking hunters that win today - they look awesome, but geez, they look uncomfortable. Give me the clunky old school hunter easing over a jump any day....

[TheJenners]

Ah hhahahahahah!!! Oh, Nikki, that pic! Every time, it get me every dang time.

Ok, seeing that I'm not an Eq or hunter brat *moons BNT cliques* and I don't know either of these fellas, I can be fairly honest. I've seen the name Peter Pletcher in a PH mag once, for an article he wrote or co-wrote, but the only pics were flat.

The first pic, other than the leg having swung back, he looks OK. Perhaps pinching with his knee, which has caused the chain reaction of leg back, body a tad forward, etc etc. As for looking down...eh. It happens. The releases leave something to be desired, but it's "IN" right now, so again, eh *shrug*. Otherwise, back flat and staying out of the horsey's way.

Second pic: can that saddle BE any flatter? Lordy...Leg position is wonderful, tho the foot is jammed home a bit, which I think was the style. Tushy is a bit out of the saddle, but Nikki said it was a bigger fence and again, wasn't that the style? I like his release, his eyes are up, his back is flattish (looks like he may have dropped his shoulders a tad...). He is out of the horsey's way and seems more secure than pic #1. I say that because when he lands, his leg won't have to swing forward, likewise when he takes off his leg won't swing backwards because he has a greater basis of support than one dinky little joint we lovingly call The Knee. Makes him stiller on the horse, and probably a lot less distracting.

As for pic #3...MU HAHAHHAHAHAhA!! Oh my. Seriously, people don't jump like this, do they? I bet there is so much motion going on, what with the leg flying back, body being throw towards the neck and then back again...how could you ever notice the horse if you were watching it live? I would be like http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif if I saw that. Not too mention what that horse must be thinking with a calf and heel going from girth to hip and back again eight to twelve times, tho he looks content and desensitized enough. And before anyone even TRIES to crawl my case, yes, you can tell there was a butt load of ridiculous motion: look at the dude's extra rein. It is wrapped around his upper right arm, to the armpit. Hello? Not a normal occurance. How safe is that?

OK, now all you BNT cliquesters can defend your idols if you want to. But don't come after me, I said nothing incorrect or inflamatory, other than mooning your sheep-like selves. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Bah.

[Ruby G. Weber]

I would like to add that, since we are judging pictures of riders, and not actual riders, the pictures in COTH are taken later in the jump than the typical hunter picture today. Today, they are photographed just off the ground, at the supposed apex of the bascule. You don't see that stage of the jump in the older pics. I can tell you that if today's horses were caught a second or two later, it would NOT contribute to the argument that horses today are better jumpers. I have watched many lately, and while they have incredible knee/shoulder action, it doesn't follow through to a completely round jump. In fact, I see a lot of invertec, belly jumpers.

Point being, it isn't true that the horses of today, as a whole, are throwing these riders out of the saddle, hence the bad position. I submit that it is an artificially created "look" to aid the impression of the rounder jumping horse. A generality, as there are some very nice horses out there, but on the basis of just the pictures, a false impression is given.

It would be much easier to judge the pictures of all the horses/riders were caught at the same stage of the jump.

[BAC]

You may be right Magnolia about the hunting but as a jr. my trainer always stressed a secure foundation of proper seat/leg before going on to bigger fences. And even now, after a gap of 24 years of not riding, my current trainer will not allow me to jump more than small fences because I just cannot get my darn legs to stay underneath me properly, maybe I am subconsciously trying to copy Peter Pletcher. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif She is not a famous BNT but she does insist on doing things properly, and SAFELY! And as a plump 50+ trying to learn to ride again, safety is important to both of us.

I forgot to say, I think the reason the rider's in GM's photos have such a "light" feeling to them is that secure lower leg they all seem to have, it allows their upper body to just sit so lightly on their horse. There is no way to create that same feeling hanging over the side of the poor animal's neck with your butt in the air and your legs flung back. And maybe it is because today's hunters are so athletic that they are able to jump so beautifully despite the rider's position.

[Ruby G. Weber]

P.S. The above post is by Lauriep, not Ruby. I am using Ruby's computer and forgot to log in as me. And when I went to edit it, there was no edit button, only the "" button...

[Nikki^]

Lauriep: That is why I chose those three photos. They are taken at the same time. If these horses disappeared from the rider, PP and the I don't know guy would have done a belly flop while Frank would've landed on his feet.

[Madame Butterfly]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
Ok, let's compare the correct style to the new age style.

http://community.webshots.com/album/250374977JKTrHq

All three horses are jumping the same (though Frank is jumping a bigger fence). What do you see? Like? Dislike? Let's coffee talk! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Boy, doesn't Frank Chapot look gorgeous... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Ruby G. Weber:
P.S. The above post is by Lauriep, not Ruby. I am using Ruby's computer and forgot to log in as me. And when I went to edit it, there was no edit button, only the "" button... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I was wondering why we hadn't heard from you on this subject, you are so right in what you say (as usual).

[Ruby G. Weber]

That is true, Nikki, and I wasn't referring to yours. Good choice, BTW.

[Ruby G. Weber]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gifBecause I am barn-sitting for Ruby's barn, 11 horses, 2 cats, one dog, plus my 3 dogs. I'm EXHAUSTED!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Nikki^]

Oh My Lauriep! That's a lot of children to look after! I hope the kitties and the puppies are getting along.

I know! Drink a tall cup of coffee or green tea with a spoonful of honey. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Weatherford]

Excellent observation, Lauriep (and Ruby... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) - and very true.

However, I DID get a Chronicle the other day (only 2 months late) dated the 19th of November and there on page 13 is a picture of Scott Hofstetter on 2004's First Year Green Champion, looking very nice. It was pretty heartening, actually http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif And it stopped me dead in my tracks - wow, a near auto release? head up? angles closed, not thrusted? Wow!

Not as gorgeous as Frank C. or Bill S., but does give me hope!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>my current trainer will not allow me to jump more than small fences because I just cannot get my darn legs to stay underneath me properly, <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's great to hear. I will honestly say that the best "equitation" coach I have had yet is my current trainer - an eventer. Always focused on my leg, release, whatever. Many of the hunter trainers I worked with focused on pace, finding distances, and in general riding between the jumps, and what I do before and after the jump. (All very valid things to focus on!) It seems ironic that I have an eventer coaching me that nags me about my heels over fences......

[BAC]

Yes, I agree, she is an excellent trainer and I am lucky to have found her. Not surprised your eventer is such a good teacher either, I have a very dear friend who was a world class eventer so I am very partial to them.

[pinkhorse]

lauriep I completely concur on this one. I've been wondering for the past several years why the photogs are taking pictures at this stage in the jump. I consider it a particularly ugly stage but maybe it's 'cause I grew up with pictures over the jump.

Unfortunately, and this is why I noticed it particularly, it is horrid for pictures of riders. It took me a long time to realize why eq riders always looked like they were standing up in their stirrups with their crotches over the pommel and legs completely straight. I think part of it is a problem with position but it's also a bit where even the best riders tend to be at that stage in the jump.

Any photographers out there who can explain this abrupt change in practice?

[Renn/aissance]

Now, maybe I should be putting on an asbestos suit, but the way I see it, Peter Pletcher's form in the pics posted by Nikki is just a less dramatic form of what the person in picture #3 is doing. He's pinching off of his knee, which sends his lower leg out and back, and poor pony if he's wearing spurs. This throws him onto his horse's neck, jamming his elbows down into the shoulder as he presses down on them with all of his upper body weight, and he's ducking right and looking down. Sure, he doesn't seem to be inhibiting the horse's jump any, but the horse looks worried to me.

Regarding Picture #3: Here we see the rider pinching off his knee, thrusting his lower leg back and out, throwing his upper body forward (onto his hands this time, not his elbows) and ducking. Additionally, his entire body weight has slipped left, and if you look, the horse's body is too- look at his body angle and at his fold. The horse looks like a steady sort, and he's not jumping badly (he's still clearing the fence with roomto spare, and his knees are up) but I don't think anyone would say that the horse's left lean and twist is not at least influenced by his rider's form.

Unfortunately, a lot of the Grand Prix riders adopt this form as well. In fact, there was a picture of Todd Minikus on- I believe it was Oh Star- in Practical Horseman several years ago, in an article by Missy Clark. His form was very, very similar to that displayed in picture #3. Undoubtedly he is a horseman and he gets the job done, but he always looks like he's going to jump the jump without his horse one of these days.

[findeight]

Trouble is pictures are just pictures.
If you sit and watch 8 or 10 trips it's different then using a few pictures to form an opinion of somebody's style.

Now I'm not saying that laying on the neck is a good thing but you cannot assume this is the way they always ride and this is the way they teach just because you saw a picture.

Still, that #3 pic is awful but I am not prepared to condemn this guy I don't know and have never seen on the basis of this single, incredibly bad picture.

Believe it or not, there was a horrendous shot of VHV in COTH a while back. Looked like he thought the horse was going to take another step but left long and he flat got left big time.
God AWFUL shot. Every bit as bad as that #3 except VHV was in the horse's face as this guy is not.

You'd tear him to bits off of that were it posted here.
So a picture is not the be all end all in determining what a rider can do.

[Renn/aissance]

I realize that. Please, if I didn't make that clear in my post, tell me and I'll go back and edit it to reflect that.

[J. Turner]

Weatherford, I remember that picture of Scott, well. Is it the congrats ad? I was stopped by it as well. I love Scott's riding. He's not always perfect-perfect, but he is really sooo soft.

[obie]

In a lot of the posts the statement about jumps being bigger "back inthe day" is so true - but when did fence heights start lowering? 1970's? And what caused its advent? I think "less hunting, less pony clubbing is probably one thing, less land, more rings instead of jumping fields? I have an old, out of print book called "A very young rider" that chroicles a girl's training and showing, her trainer was none other than a very young George Morris, I thought it was very interesting that not only did the little girl do hunter shows with her pony, she also pony clubbed and as she says "always wears her pony club pin on the front of her helmet" I about died thinking about that happening today! Perhaps the change happened when more trainers got into the "show" business thus producing more clientele for them at lower levels? I would love to chronicle old show bills and see when things started "going down hill" Does anyone have prize lists from established shows like Devon that give fence heights through the years?

[baymare]

Interesting and relevant issues, obie. I think the fence heights started lowering in the latter part of the seventies with the introduction of the pre-green division.

But another big change came not just from the lowering of fence height, but moving the hunters off the outside course and into the ring. And once again I think we can blame the almighty dollar. Outside courses were time-consuming to run, and you can get a lot more horses and riders around a four-line measured course in an afternoon than you can around an outside course. And of course, if you lower the fence height you open the competition to greater numbers of riders. More bodies, more rounds, more money.

Now I'm not going to get into a good-ol'-days diatribe here, but I think the resultant changes have detracted from the sport, not added. The original purpose of a hunter has been completely lost, and the mannered style popular today really has no context or use other than to win ribbons and make money for the folks who produce it so well.

[Linus]

I, too, hate this new-age style (http://community.webshots.com/photo/201288685/201289185AYWpoh), the perched heavy-handed flapping chicken-elbows style that really seems to piss horses off.

Whatever happened to good equitation?

[Nikki^]

Linus: Georege always tells everybody that his biggest fault is that his elbows stick out.

He's also adjusting the horse and getting ready to pick up the canter. The horse was already pissed off before GM got on. When GM rode this horse, the horse was soft, supple and jumped very well. GM was also showing the rider what he was doing on the horse.

Shall I post the video?

[Linus]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
Linus: Georege always tells everybody that his biggest fault is that his elbows stick out.

He's also adjusting the horse and getting ready to pick up the canter. The horse was already pissed off before GM got on. When GM rode this horse, the horse was soft, supple and jumped very well. GM was also showing the rider what he was doing on the horse.

Shall I post the video? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sure, but in the interest of fairness you should probably post videos of Peter Pletcher and the other poor soul you have in your album.

My only point is that anyone can take a bad picture, even GM Himself. There are all sorts of reasons why one would have a moment of bad eq, as you yourself have just articulated. If we're not to judge HIM for his riding at an isolated moment in time -- how can you fairly judge others?

I'll admit to not being the biggest fan of some current trends in hunter riding. But the overemphasis on pictures drives me nuuuuuts -- as though you can really tell much of anything from a single picture. You can't.

Didn't you just say so yourself?

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Renn/aissance:
and poor pony if he's wearing spurs. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Just wanted to say: a slipped back leg doesn't mean a horse will get goosed by spurs. Spurs don't come into play until the toe is turned out, so it is very possible to pinch with your knee, have your leg slip...and not goose your horse with your spurs.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by obie:
"A very young rider" that chroicles a girl's training and showing, her trainer was none other than a very young George Morris
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because I'm a bit of a detail queen:

George Morris was not Vivi's trainer. He trained her sister. Vivi worked with another trainer (possibly a GM protege...any else remember the details there?...I'm blanking on his name)

[Windsor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But the overemphasis on pictures drives me nuuuuuts -- as though you can really tell much of anything from a single picture. You can't. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I see your point, but if you step back and look at the big picture are we really talking about "a single picture" here? It seems to me GM is basing his comparisons of today's riders with yesterday's based on lots and lots of pictures from then and now.

[Magnolia]

I got my issue yesterday. I actually think GM has contributed to that horrid stiff "Big Eq" look. Part of what looks great about the old timers is they are RELAXED. The eq kids today look AWFUL in their equitation photos - then you see them on their jumpers and they look great. His nit-picking has made everyone so darn tense and hung up on the finer details of position that any fluidness is lost.

I can't explain the bad eq in the hunters - perhaps those riders are a wee bit too relaxed?

[Windsor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Her trainer's name escapes me at the moment <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe it was Jonathan something-or-another.

[Nikki^]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linus:
[My only point is that anyone can take a bad picture, even GM Himself. There are all sorts of reasons why one would have a moment of bad eq, as you yourself have just articulated. If we're not to judge HIM for his riding at an isolated moment in time -- how can you fairly judge others?

I'll admit to not being the biggest fan of some current trends in hunter riding. But the overemphasis on pictures drives me nuuuuuts -- as though you can really tell much of anything from a single picture. You can't.

Didn't you just say so yourself? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You missed the whole point of this thread and the article. Let's read the first paragraph of the article shall we?

"Last month (and long before!) I was thumbing through issues of the Chronicle and I was truly appalled by the style-or lack of style-of the top professional hunter riders in this country. Yes, I'm, sure they have great feel, sence of pace and eye for a distance, but, my fellow horsemen, that is not enough!"

To me it wouldn't matter if they did it once, as in a opps because nobody is perfect, but most of the pros do it ALL the time. He's not picking on the sale ads or the ammys, just the pros.

[Smigget]

Disclaimer: I have never competed in a hunter shows, am not current on styles and fashions, jump at home just for fun of it and to add variation to my dressage lessons. All I know about the actual hunter show ring is what I read here, see in magazines, etc. I am an outsider looking in. What I am about to say is purely an obsevation, and I may be very wrong in what I see.

I've ridden for 6 years (I'm a Junior) and have never been to a show other than when my trainer took me along with her so that I could see what went on, and once I went along as a groom. I ride and jump with the sole purpose of bettering how I ride and jump, not to win ribbons.I so badly want to show this summer though, if I can scrape together enough $$$ to do so, but I am NOT impressed with the hunter jumper world. I LOVE jumping, and am learning how to jump effectivly.

My first English trainer taught us the auto release and when I leaned on my horse's neck I got a tounge lashing. She had us jump with our arms out to teach balance, etc. Clinging to the horse was a mortal sin or jumping the fence for the horse was a mortal sin.

I took a two year break from jumping, and am currently cringing every time I use the crest release while I'm work on getting my balance back. My current trainer is huge on a solid leg, is teaching me to see distances, yadda yadda yadda.... I'm learning to better my riding because I want to be the best rider I can be, and maybe one day I will be able to go to a show.

Where I am going with this:
It seems to me that so many of the riders today train for the show, and tailor their riding the the current style and what is winning, etc, rather than what works and is effective for the horse and the fence. They seem to want to ride is such as position that it will win, not because it makes them a better "real" rider. Like someone mentioned before, they wouldn't last on a real hunt field.

I have a book written by a captian of the USET called "Riding and Jumping" or something like that, that is full of photos like that of the GM article. They are positivly beautiful pictures, with the rider looking like an effective part of the team, rather than someone along for the ride, like I see when I flip through magazines.

So my hypothesis as to why the riding style has gone kaput is the reason people are adopting the certain style. Does that make any sense?

My logic is probably full of holes. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sebastian]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Linus:
[My only point is that anyone can take a bad picture, even GM Himself. There are all sorts of reasons why one would have a moment of bad eq, as you yourself have just articulated. If we're not to judge HIM for his riding at an isolated moment in time -- how can you fairly judge others?

I'll admit to not being the biggest fan of some current trends in hunter riding. But the overemphasis on pictures drives me nuuuuuts -- as though you can really tell much of anything from a single picture. You can't.

Didn't you just say so yourself? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You missed the whole point of this thread and the article. Let's read the first paragraph of the article shall we?

"Last month (and long before!) I was thumbing through issues of the _Chronicle_ and I was truly appalled by the style-or lack of style-of the _top professional hunter riders_ in this country. Yes, I'm, sure they have great feel, sence of pace and eye for a distance, but, my fellow horsemen, that is not enough!"

To me it wouldn't matter if they did it once, as in a opps because nobody is perfect, but most of the pros do it ALL the time. He's not picking on the sale ads or the ammys, just the pros. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ditto, Nikki. The point being made is not just about pictures. It's about the overall trend in Hunter riding. (And, those of us who grip about it are at the shows watching live rounds as well -- shocking, I know! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif)

Seb http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
You missed the whole point of this thread and the article. Let's read the first paragraph of the article shall we?

"Last month (and long before!) I was thumbing through issues of the _Chronicle_ and I was truly appalled by the style-or lack of style-of the _top professional hunter riders_ in this country. Yes, I'm, sure they have great feel, sence of pace and eye for a distance, but, my fellow horsemen, that is not enough!"

To me it wouldn't matter if they did it once, as in a opps because nobody is perfect, but most of the pros do it ALL the time. He's not picking on the sale ads or the ammys, just the pros. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Don't forget the last sentence of the article too:
"Professionals are our role models, so it is especially important that they exemplify this classic way of riding."

[Weatherford]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Smigget:

I have a book written by a captian of the USET called "Riding and Jumping" or something like that, that is full of photos like that of the GM article. They are positivly beautiful pictures, with the rider looking like an effective part of the team, rather than someone along for the ride, like I see when I flip through magazines.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You really should post the author of the book! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Since you mention the USET, I suspect it is Bill Steinkraus' (he of perfect form, Individual Gold Medal, and George Morris' eternal respect) (written in the late 60's) There are a couple of other books by that title that are earlier. All with wonderful pictures. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Speaking of interesting pictures, and I know this has been mentioned before, Jane Marshall Dillon's Form Over Fences is a classic and wonderful study of the developing young rider. Very different, too, many today might think it is "old-fashioned" if not dead wrong. However, when you think that two of her "example" riders went on to the Olympics (Kathy Kusner & Joe Fargis), one to a Gold Medal (Joe), well, maybe it isn't so old fashioned at all! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Smigget, your hypothesis is not too far off the mark. When GM started insisted on a "crest release" (assuming, obviously wrongly, people UNDERSTOOD the ROLE of the crest release, as he talks about it in his book) EVERYONE started DOING it. And this was regardless of what was correct, or the fact that the crest release it is a "beginner to intermediate" way of jumping, not an end in itself. (Read SM's book!) So, people started crest releaseing, and people doing it won, so more people assumed that was what they should do... etc, etc, etc - we find outselves having this problem today...

Ditto the hunters, Rodney Jenkins was the first to have that floppy, slightly off balance huntery style - so, it became vogue, especially as he won a LOT! But, people forget that Ridney was/is an incomparable horseman and rider, and he was always balanced and in the center of his horse. And, if you think about the other winning hunter riders at that time, and you DIDN'T see that syle! It slowly became the "style de jour"! (I saw one hunter rider almost fall off at the Garden a couple of years ago - over a not very big fence that the horse jumped pretty flat http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif )

We all tend to copy what we see as much as what we are told. That is why Carol Thompson INSISTS that her riders spend as much time watching the BEST as riding. Problem is today, it is not as easy to watch the best today as it was in my childhood when the best was Bill Steinkrausm, Frank Chapot, Mary Mairs Chapot, Kathy Kusner, George Morris, Michael Plumb, Bernie Trauig, Neal Shapiro, and others, including Carol Hofmann Thompson! These people showed locally (NJ) as well as nationally, and we got to see them - and copy them (one of my favorite activities). Plus when the "best" in the hunter world are all flopping over their horses, well, that's what is winning, right? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

So, as I was saying before my tirade, you hypothesis is probably right...

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[BAC]

Weatherford, don't forget that Kathy Kusner won a team silver at the Olympics too. I love Mrs. Dillon's book so much I just purchased my second copy (in case something should ever happen to the first one, I'm prepared), it was only $20 and in great condition so I couldn't resist.

[Sandy M]

Yeah, I started H/J, turned to eventing, now mostly dressage, but when I showed H/J, "crest release," especially in equitation, was regarded as "whoops, made a mistake." That straight line from bit to elbow was what was wanted and an automatic release was taken for granted as correct and needed to win. Look at the pictures of McClay winners of that ancient era, like Mary Mairs (Chapot). It also was a better way to ride horses that weren't as automatic as many present-day mucho $$$$ eq mounts and hunters (I showed in "B" shows on $500 school horses and placed). I just about croaked when I accompanied an Ammy Owner friend to a show a couple of years ago, and her trainer lunged then warmed up her horse, she drank some wine, then jumped a fence or two, and her trainer led her to the ring, saying "Just sit still, hang on and steer, he'll do the rest." Huh??? NO discussion of distances, or how to ride any of the turns, of balancing her horse, or riding it properly. *Shrug* I'm sure many of the present eq riders are excellent riders who COULD do an automatic release. What appalls me is that the CREST RELEASE is now the STANDARD and not regarded as at all incorrect or of an intermediate standard: Doing crest release wins someone the title of being the best junior eq rider in the country. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Smigget]

Yes, the book is by Bill Steinkraus.

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
What appalls me is that the CREST RELEASE is now the STANDARD and not regarded as at all incorrect or of an intermediate standard: Doing crest release wins someone the title of being the best junior eq rider in the country. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I couldn't agree more. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif How does someone win the Medal/Maclay using a crest release? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

And regarding Mrs. Chapot, she has that gorgeous classic style no matter how big the fence, when she was on the USET fences/courses were much bigger than they are now.

[Limerick]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Windsor:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>
Her trainer's name escapes me at the moment <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Believe it was Jonathan something-or-another. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
His name was Jonathan Devine and when I was ten, I thought he was SO cute! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I bought that book last year to read to my daughter and I edit the parts about "cotton candy being too fattening" and "nothing uglier than fat people on horses". Besides, cotton candy doesn't have carbs does it?! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[SBT]

I haven't read all the replies, so forgive me if I'm repeating something that has already been said.

I've been wondering if these rampant form faults have anything to do with the prevalence of "kick-ride" warmbloods in the show ring. Having to use a lot of leg in front of a fence tends to destabilize the rider's position somewhat; ie, if you're using your spurs, your heel has a tendency to come up, thereby loosening your leg. If you're squeezing like crazy, it's easy to "pop" out of the saddle at takeoff. If you're driving with your seat, you have to make a big move to catch up when your horse leaves the ground. And "throwing" one's upper body is often an unconscious reaction to a slow takeoff (if the rider makes a big effort, maybe the horse will, too!)

"Back in the day," most hunters were Thoroughbreds. Driving with leg/seat was not all that necessary, and bad form had real-life conseqences: jumping up the neck could mean coming off over the horse's head. Chucking the reins could mean loss of control. A flailing leg could mean bucking/bolting. If you wanted to stay on the horse and get around the course, you rode quietly and correctly.

I think part of the reason why pros ride differently today is because the horses are different. A big, quiet, rotund warmblood is not easy to equitate on, because it necessitates so much work on the rider's part. A Thoroughbred with its own motor allows you to sit and do nothing but steer (and apply brakes as needed http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif ) One is not necessarily "easier" than the other; they are just different rides.

I could be way off the mark here, and I'm sure I'm generalizing somewhat, but I think we get away with bad form these days because our warmbloods not only tolerate it, but predispose us to it. If it went back to almost all Thoroughbreds, I think good form would be more prevalent in the show ring...because we literally wouldn't survive without it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just a thought! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Good thoughts SBT, but my ThorouDemon definitely has his own motor, mind, mouth and attitude. He requires a lot more than just sitting, steering and applying brakes. Frankly, I think he's a helluva lot harder than a lot of warmbloods. Sorry to disagree. A lot of trainers won't put riders accustomed to warmbloods on a hot, hot Thorougbred. Too dangerous.

[Madame Butterfly]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Magnolia:
I got my issue yesterday. I actually think GM has contributed to that horrid stiff "Big Eq" look. Part of what looks great about the old timers is they are RELAXED. The eq kids today look AWFUL in their equitation photos - then you see them on their jumpers and they look great. His nit-picking has made everyone so darn tense and hung up on the finer details of position that any fluidness is lost.

I can't explain the bad eq in the hunters - perhaps those riders are a wee bit too relaxed? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Look, no one's perfect, and as Linus said, one single picture can't always tell the whole story, just a second of the story...

But, blaming stiffness on the teacher...ugh, I don't think so. That's like blaming your parents for everything that goes wrong in your life.

Some people ride relaxed naturally, some have to work at it, and some never get it.

That's it. Oh well.

[J. Turner]

My TB, which I show in the jumpers, reminds me of an "olde tyme" middleweight hunter. He's a get in your two point and gallop to the fences - you don't have to touch my face, just keep your leg around me and go! He jumps as nice as the hunters in the GM's article, but he is not dead quiet as they like. All these people who are so used to riding warmbloods off the back of their calves with spurs don't get the TB ride. Some don't want to learn to ride different horses. All you have to do is sit there and be still!

[Madame Butterfly]

Is that Nigel...I do love him so!

[J. Turner]

MB - Yes, that's Nigel. I wish I could ride him in a GM clinic - not because he's the most fancy or scopiest, but because he has so much heart and love for the game. I think GM would appreciate that - his "can-do" attitude - and his "olde tyme" hunteryness.

[Madame Butterfly]

Oh I think GM would love him. I do.

[Nikki^]

Not all warmbloods are quiet just like not all Thoroughbreds are hot and speedy. If you look at the pictures I posted, all three horses are jumping the same, yet Frank Chapot makes it look like a walk in the park.

Watch a Grand Prix if you can, either live or on TV and you'll see some riders fight with a hot Warmblood.

[2ndyrgal]

It has nothing to do with the breed or type of horse. At the professional level, one would not expect to see a hunter rider, "kick on" and get that far out of shape. If your spurs are in the proper position, your heels should not come up and having to ride from your seat does mean you might have a bit of catching up to do, doesn't mean you'll be in a lousy position when you get there. Think about the grand prix riders who have great equitation, they aren't just sitting pretty between fences. A rider should be "with" their horse, not just "on" him. You can only be relaxed when you are confident and have a correct, balanced position. And the better you learn to ride, the less $$$ you have to spend on a horse.

[MistyBlue]

Quote:
"And the better you learn to ride, the less $$$ you have to spend on a horse."


LMAO! Sorry...but this cracked me up! So true sometimes, eh? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[ser42]

Now, see, every warmblood I've ridden has had a motor- you really shouldn't be constantly riding off your calves!! Those that do should go back to flatwork, honestly. No sense in jumping when you don't have your horse in front of your legs.

Yes, sure, some horses are "lazier" than others. But every horse should learn forward and respond to legs and seat without the need to constantly nag them!

So IMO it really goes back to the rider- don't blame the horse for bad eq!

[findeight]

GM "invented" the crest release and blames himself for what it has morphed into.
A PROPER crest release is BELOW each side of the neck and AHEAD of the martingale whether long, short or medium.
A PROPER crest release bears no resemblence to those piano hands floating somewhere in space.

I have a problem with those who cite the straight line from elbow to bit as the be all end all of proper form as was practiced back in the good old days. And forgetting you are not trying to rip the horse's teeth out, the tension on the mouth is the FIRST place you look, not a line from one body part to another.
Folks have actually posted horrific pics where they were way in the rumbleseat but had that straight line-as the horse's head bent backwards and mouth was ripped open....they said "check my release" and others posted "what a great release" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

Not to say we don't have some...uh...unique... postions these days.

But defining position using only hand position is something some have posted on here as the ultimate test, not realizing it's a total package that enables the horse to jump freely.

I look at the horse first, how it's using it's body. I have the same thoughts many do regarding position BUT if the horse is jumping unencumbered? Who am I to judge?

And, as far as Pros being role models...it's just like any Pro sport. A kid can idolize a player because of his/her performance but it's up to the PARENT to guide them in life's other, more important areas.

Likewise a Pro rider does NOT REPLACE a GOOD trainer at home.

Like I said, I am in GMs camp. BUT I don't agree with every sentence...and these ducking pros are NOT the reason our sport is following society in general.
A Symptom? Maybe. The cause? NOT.

[Magnolia]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Some people ride relaxed naturally, some have to work at it, and some never get it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just don't get how any photo you see from a Big Eq class looks stiff, posed and awful - and I know those kids are great riders! Typically, on the next page, you see them jumping a 4'6 oxer on their jumper and they look great - they look like relaxed, natural riders. Why do they ride so stiff in their equitation classes? It's like they tense up to hold a "position"...... who encourages that?

[findeight]

Like I said before, you can decide based on a picture or two.
Or you can actually watch 8 or 10 trips by the same rider before making a statment about their style/ability.

[melliebay Aefvue Farms Chesapeake Bay]

I would also like to disagree that it is the horses causing the riders to duck and throw their bodies. I have an OTTB who is DEAD quiet, and requires a lot of leg, he rides a lot like a dumblood...oops, I mean warmblood, and I have learned to ride his jump and get him out in front of my leg. I also have another OTTB who is the total opposite, he has a motor and requires more balancing than the former horse. I have to imagine that the TB's back in the day could also be as different to ride as my two are. I think it all stems from the professionals who are riding sale horses, so they throw their hands forward and duck to get the best possible jump out of their horse. The youngsters are emulating that look without understanding it's function.

[buschkn]

There is no function to ducking and throwing your reins away. But that's JMHO.

Maybe the loosey goosey style is just a way to show that todays show hunters are suitable as "real hunters", too, since it has come so far from it's roots. They are showing that even with a rider who is all over the place and flailing around, they will still canter steadily and jump the jumps perfectly- what a great field hunter! LOOK! You can ride him even when you're drinking from a flask!

OK, calm down, I'm JOKING!! Nonetheless, purist here, zipping up flame suit.

[baymare]

buschkn-- not even the most sainted horse in the world could rescue a rider whose position was that suicidal out hunting!

(Coming from one who used to gallop around not only with a flask in one hand, but holding my derby on with the other!!)

[Madame Butterfly]

Maybe people are trying to imitate the current models/heroes in the hunter world...

No heroes for me. Just martyrs... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Bumpkin]

Ok I got my COTH issue yesterday and was able to sit down and read the article and look at the photos.
Good for GM to bring this up.

I have an old PH that in the GM critiques shows a Pro, and GM is not too kind.
I will try and retype his critique later, as it is a lot like what he wrote in COTH.

LOVE the olde photos.
But then all my jumping photos of Bumpkin and I are olde black and whites like those.
GM was right, we use to pour over those photos and man do I wish now my mother bought every single one, instead of just a handful.

[Nikki^]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:


I have an old PH that in the GM critiques shows a Pro, and GM is not too kind.
I will try and retype his critique later, as it is a lot like what he wrote in COTH.

. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please???!!! With sugar on top! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[ccoronios]

Thank you, Nikki - devoured article last night! I concur with Weatherford, being another east-coaster of the same generation. We had the epitome of international equestrians to emulate - there at our fingertips at almost every show we attended.
And findeight - you have an excellent point about the "straight line" that we all refer to. Those of us 'of a certain age' know EXACTLY what that means, but it bears comment for those who misunderstand its application to the situations you mentioned. And of course, there were some unique positions.... Littauer's 'forward seat' was a relatively new concept... WOW!! Does that age us or WHAT???

And Rodney may have been the first to look 'loose' in hunters, but I'm thinking he was following Benny O'Meara's lead....

[Nikki^]

ccoronios: Your welcome! Do you have a photo of Littauer's foward seat?

Edit: found it! He also has a book out.

http://www.nsl.org/littauer.html

[ccoronios]

Tried to find more than this - but no other pics....
He really is the father of what we know as "the hunt seat", since before him, the basic position was defensive (think old English hunting prints).

Littauer (http://www.nsl.org/littauer.html)

[Bumpkin]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nikki^:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bumpkin:


I have an old PH that in the GM critiques shows a Pro, and GM is not too kind.
I will try and retype his critique later, as it is a lot like what he wrote in COTH.

. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Please???!!! With sugar on top! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


I promise, I will sit down and do it later.

[lauriep]

Rodney's riding was all his own, and due to his enormous, unequalled talent. I recently saw a picture of him at 10, showing his junior hunter, and his style was recognizable even then.

I am so sorry for the generations to come that will never get to see him ride. He has no equal.

[vineyridge]

This is one of the Show Jumping Hall of Fame photos, and it's about the loveliest rider position I've ever seen. From the 1940's or 1950's I imagine.

http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/inductees/f_wing.shtml

Thing is that Americans showed hunters AND jumpers with the Littauer/Wright/Chamberlin/Caprilli forward seat riding style. They were internationally successful at doing so "back in the day."

Laura Chapot has a truly lovely riding style that I think GM would definitely appreciate. Reckon her folks taught her??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[vineyridge]

Have I killed this, or was it just about to die on its own?

Just wondering. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Bumpkin]

We can keep it alive.
I need to dig out that GM thing anyways, and post it.

[nightsong]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by vineyridge:
This is one of the Show Jumping Hall of Fame photos, and it's about the loveliest rider position I've ever seen. From the 1940's or 1950's I imagine.

http://www.showjumpinghalloffame.net/inductees/f_wing.shtml

Thing is that Americans showed hunters AND jumpers with the Littauer/Wright/Chamberlin/Caprilli forward seat riding style. They were internationally successful at doing so "back in the day."

Laura Chapot has a truly lovely riding style that I think GM would definitely appreciate. Reckon her folks taught her??? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That picture just EPITOMIZES lightness.

[ccoronios]

That's a wonderful picture of Gen. Wing - how classic!

And Laurie - I stand corrected. Rodney's one of my heroes - phenomenal horseman - I didn't mean to belittle his talents; I believe I saw Benny ride before I saw Rodney - and came to my own conclusion. Not the first time I've been wrong. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ah well....

[lauriep]

No problem! I just wanted to point out that Rodney's style was completely natural, and a result of his enormous natural talent. Benny had similar talent, and was way ahead of his time, and I know they had some similarities.

But, Rodney's style wasn't "classic," either, He ducked, lost his lower leg, roached his back, similar to what you see in the hunter ring today. He was excused, even by GM, because of what he could do on a horse, and how the animals WANTED to perform for him because of it.

[Linny]

Could someone tell me the issue date of this COTH article? Also, is it possible to order a single copy from COTH? It sounds like one I'd like to have.

[vineyridge]

Linny, it's January 7, 2005.

Mine just came Friday. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

You can buy single copies from either the COTH offices or in big tack stores. The COTH information is somewhere on their website:The Chronicle of the Horse
P.O.Box 46 · Middleburg,VA 20118 · 108 The Plains Rd., Middleburg, VA 20117 ·
Phonehttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif540) 687-6341 · Faxhttp://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif540) 687-3937

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by lauriep:
No problem! I just wanted to point out that Rodney's style was completely natural, and a result of his enormous natural talent. Benny had similar talent, and was way ahead of his time, and I know they had some similarities.

But, Rodney's style wasn't "classic," either, He ducked, lost his lower leg, roached his back, similar to what you see in the hunter ring today. He was excused, even by GM, because of what he could do on a horse, and how the animals WANTED to perform for him because of it. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

As a kid taking group lessons with an instructor who stressed correct equitation was to enable us to get the best performance from our horse, one of us brats would always chime in that "Rodney doesn't ride like that." Her response was always that when one of us had as much natural talent as Rodney we could ride however we want but until that time we were to do as she says and try and achieve the best possible eq we were capable of.
I consider myself very fortunate that I was hanging out at horse shows during the mid to late 60's when Rodney was not only one of the top jumper riders but was still showing hunters also.

[ccoronios]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Rodney doesn't ride like that." Her response was always that when one of us had as much natural talent as Rodney we could ride however we want... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Did we ride with the same instructor? I remember hearing that line!

[Madeline]

Just catching up with this thread.

One point that I haven't seen made quite enough is that "Back When", like '60's and before, hunters went on courses that included a.) solid fences b.) hills and c.) no measured distances. They also went at a "fair hunting pace." Devon had a BANK back into the ring, fer goodness sakes. Outside course in and outs were set looong. The pace that today's hunters go would be acceptable only in the first year's. Juniors, second years and workings were expected to move along. In the manicured, measured perfectly flat show rings of today there's no really good reason not to sprawl.

Someone touched on the "Riders trying to make it look like the horses are jumping them out of the tack" thing. In ancient history, except for the USET, the big bucks and prestige were in the hunters. Jumpers were often the province of the ill conformed and unruly but talented horses. Now that jumpers are big time, and that there are so many "supporting" divisions starting with level 1, any horse that can actually get up in the air is in one jumper division or another. Sure, there probably are some exceptions in the very top ranks of the open hunters,but for the most part, the hunter divisions are populated by "splinter-bellies", and anything their riders can do to make them look actually airborn is excusable.

I just found my copy of "Classic Show Jumping: The de Nemethy Method." Great pictures and lots of them.

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ccoronios:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>"Rodney doesn't ride like that." Her response was always that when one of us had as much natural talent as Rodney we could ride however we want... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Did we ride with the same instructor? I remember hearing that line! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe. It was Dot Sachey, East Northport, NY.

[ccoronios]

Oh my word! I DID ride with Dot for a little while back in early 60s when she was just starting.
When were you there? My best friend worked for her for a while (shortly I rode there) - if you're of the same vintage, you might have known him.

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ccoronios:
Oh my word! I DID ride with Dot for a little while back in early 60s when she was just starting.
When were you there? My best friend worked for her for a while (shortly I rode there) - if you're of the same vintage, you might have known him. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think I started there in 1964 - stayed through 1971. What is the name of your friend that worked there?

[ccoronios]

His name is Walter Bickmann.
Did you know a girl named Betty can't remember her last name... she owned a gray named Misty, showed him as London Fog - I think primarily eq, 'cause he SURE wasn't a hunter! She bought him while Walter was there, and when he left, the horse intimidated her so she sort of quit on him. In '69, I showed him as a jumper to sell him for her.

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ccoronios:
His name is Walter Bickmann.
Did you know a girl named Betty can't remember her last name... she owned a gray named Misty, showed him as London Fog - I think primarily eq, 'cause he SURE wasn't a hunter! She bought him while Walter was there, and when he left, the horse intimidated her so she sort of quit on him. In '69, I showed him as a jumper to sell him for her. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I remember Walter, we all loved him. In fact he braided my boyfriend (at the time) horses's mane for the jr. hunters at MSG one year. I always wondered what happened to him. Betty's last name was Colford, my mother and hers were friends because we both had Great Danes. One summer Betty went away and paid me $5 a week to exercise Misty for her.

[ccoronios]

BAC - how FUN! I'm going down to spend a week with him next month. If you'll e-mail me with your name, I'll be glad to say "hi" for you!
Wasn't Misty a hoot? He'd gotten really rank by the time I worked with him - we had a real session at a Jericho show in the snow one day. In fact, Rodney did a lecture/demo at Jericho one night, and afterwards, we were chatting - I asked him what he would do to get MORE weight on the forehand (part of his presentation had been "lifting" the horse's forehand). He looked at me with suspicion/amusement until I explained that coming to a 5' fence doing caprioles was REALLY disconcerting and hard to judge strides. His face totally changed and he said "Where is he? Is he here? Can I ride him??" Unfortunately, the answer to the 2nd question was 'no' and he had promised to be home the next day.
At any rate - I LOVE this BB. One of my students from SC contacted me after reading a post, now 'meeting' you.... and others.... TOO fun!

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ccoronios:
BAC - how FUN! I'm going down to spend a week with him next month. If you'll e-mail me with your name, I'll be glad to say "hi" for you!
Wasn't Misty a hoot? He'd gotten really rank by the time I worked with him - we had a real session at a Jericho show in the snow one day. In fact, Rodney did a lecture/demo at Jericho one night, and afterwards, we were chatting - I asked him what he would do to get MORE weight on the forehand (part of his presentation had been "lifting" the horse's forehand). He looked at me with suspicion/amusement until I explained that coming to a 5' fence doing caprioles was REALLY disconcerting and hard to judge strides. His face totally changed and he said "Where is he? Is he here? Can I ride him??" Unfortunately, the answer to the 2nd question was 'no' and he had promised to be home the next day.
At any rate - I LOVE this BB. One of my students from SC contacted me after reading a post, now 'meeting' you.... and others.... TOO fun! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Wow, what a small world, I'll email you right away. He probably won't remember me though, I was just one of many barn kids hanging out there. Misty was fun but no fireworks like you described, on the other hand, I was only allowed to hack him for exercise, no jumping. Betty was a few years older than me and in fact I don't really seem to remember her actually riding Misty very much LOL. Maybe he saved his antics for the better riders. What a shame you missed out on a private session with Rodney. I had forgotten all about those Jericho shows, I too LOVE this BB.

[BAC]

Ccoronios - I sent you a PT.

[ccoronios]

BAC - I won't get the PT 'til I get home, so I'll answer tonight. Are you still on LI?

From what Walter said, after he left, Betty and Misty went through a decreasing spiral and she ended up not riding him at all. I can thoroughly appreciate that - he was a handful, and Walter was - and IS - a master at getting more out of rider and horse than either believes possible.

Talk with you this evening! Oh - who was your boyfriend? (you can e-mail me with that, too!)

Oh my - slow me. I just realized that you could BE Betty! (well, I don't know what her middle name is...)

[Nikki^]

I have some more picture to share:

Big jump, nice EQ (http://community.webshots.com/photo/114604063/114605390WXxHOF)


Laura Chapot and Little Big Man (http://community.webshots.com/photo/211110429/211111739XFYQTt)

WOW!!!! (http://community.webshots.com/photo/114604063/114604574MFFrMg)

[BAC]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ccoronios:
BAC - I won't get the PT 'til I get home, so I'll answer tonight. Are you still on LI?

From what Walter said, after he left, Betty and Misty went through a decreasing spiral and she ended up not riding him at all. I can thoroughly appreciate that - he was a handful, and Walter was - and IS - a master at getting more out of rider and horse than either believes possible.

Talk with you this evening! Oh - who was your boyfriend? (you can e-mail me with that, too!)

Oh my - slow me. I just realized that you could BE Betty! (well, I don't know what her middle name is...) <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I don't know why I didn't email you, I just sent you THREE PT's - I kept forgetting stuff. I think with Misty it was a case of ignorance is bliss, I know he was "sensitive" but didn't know much else, I just got on and rode LOL. He didn't do anything too exciting with me. I agree with you about Walter, I thought he was awesome. Yes, I am still on LI, I'm going to try and copy my PT's to an email now so you can see them.

[ccoronios]

Oh - I finally thought about PTing and have seen them - and answered.... Look forward to YOUR answer!
Where on LI?

[vineyridge]

Nikki, the pictures don't work for me because I "don't appear to be the owner of this album."

I'd love to see Laura Chapot and Little Big Man.

Don't know who the others are, but I'm sure they are equally worthy of admiration.

[Nikki^]

OK, I got the picture to work now!

[vineyridge]

Man, those are beautiful. Scary, but beautiful.

When OLN showed show jumping, Laura Chapot was shown once in a round with Little Big Man. She seemed to ride the horse with just her leg and was so smooth, flowing and balanced through the whole round that my jaw dropped.

It was an education just to watch.

[Nikki^]

I have a tape where Mclain Ward was 18 and the announcer said that he "makes this GP course look like an EQ course." He's just that damn good!