Please help ease my mind. I spoke to both vets. Another Question p.3

[Kiwayu]

So Kiwayu has been colicing on and off for the past 3-4 weeks. Vet has been involved since the first day. We drew blood this past tuesday to hopefully find out WHY he keeps colicing. Blood work came back fine. Wonderful, but what's his deal??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Well, when the vet came out to pull the blood Tuesday, that morning I noticed a "sore" in Kiwayu's mouth. I showed the vet when she came later on, and she said it was a mouth ulcer. She blew it off like it was nothing. It went away about 2 days later. Now, I check his gum color today (have been everyday since they've been almost white-vet knows), and he has another big mouth ulcer in a different spot. WTF??? Why is he constantly getting ulcers all of a sudden??? Obviously, I will put a call into the vet Tuesday morning after the holiday along with the dentist, but can someone please put my mind at ease? It's just one thing after another, and he's been sooo stressed this past month. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Kiwayu]

So Kiwayu has been colicing on and off for the past 3-4 weeks. Vet has been involved since the first day. We drew blood this past tuesday to hopefully find out WHY he keeps colicing. Blood work came back fine. Wonderful, but what's his deal??? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Well, when the vet came out to pull the blood Tuesday, that morning I noticed a "sore" in Kiwayu's mouth. I showed the vet when she came later on, and she said it was a mouth ulcer. She blew it off like it was nothing. It went away about 2 days later. Now, I check his gum color today (have been everyday since they've been almost white-vet knows), and he has another big mouth ulcer in a different spot. WTF??? Why is he constantly getting ulcers all of a sudden??? Obviously, I will put a call into the vet Tuesday morning after the holiday along with the dentist, but can someone please put my mind at ease? It's just one thing after another, and he's been sooo stressed this past month. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Simkie]

It could just be stress.

Do you have him on a lysine supplement? If not, adding one will help with stress *and* the oral ulcers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Try not to worry too much.

[Kiwayu]

He's usually on lysine, but since he's been colicing so much, my vet told me not to give any supplements until 100% better. I hope it's stress related. I guess since all this has been happening, I'm just worrying about everything. To me, he's still not right....

[Simkie]

The recent withdrawl of lysine could *totally* cause oral ulcers.

I have several human friends who MUST take lysine, or they get mouth sores. Gross but true http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Sannois]

You poor thing!! I would be a wreck! The Vets have NO idea what is causing the colicing??? Can they do endoscopes on horses?? Sorry I work in the medical field! I am sure you have covered it all worms, food blah blah blah! Its so frustratingthat this stuff happens and they cant get a handle on it! Jungling for you and your boy BEST of luck!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[bambam]

Mine got several mouth ulcers from a load of hay that had thistles in it. Had me pretty worried too until I had the vet out.
I have no idea what may be going on with your horse, but there are possible totally innocuous reasons for mouth ulcers. Hopefully it is something that insignificant with yours.
Good luck!

[Kiwayu]

Kiwayu has definitely had a recent withdrawl of Lysine. The othalmologist has him on 3 scoops (12 grams, I think) of Lysine daily. Kiwayu has reoccuring eye herpes. Also, the amount of stress (fireworks, colic, etc) Kiwayu has been experiencing, and still is, is absolutly rediculous!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Kim]

My horse went through a period of recurrent colics - it turned out to be certain food allergies. It may be something to check with your vet.

[Buffyblue]

If he has ulcers in his mouth, could he also have them in his stomach?

[shea'smom]

Kristen,
I know you have been writing about your guy colicing, but I haven't read everything. Have you considered the "big word that escapes me", maybe enteroith, or something like that? When they get a small foreign body, like a pebble, and a mineralization forms around it, making a big obstruction? I don't feel like I am describing it it well, but it can cause come and go symptoms?
Good luck with him,
Kathi

[certifiedgirl]

I don't know if this is similar to what your horse has going on, but it was posted on the PedQuery board today.

http://www.pedigreequery.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5216

[Kiwayu]

Buffyblue-Kiwayu doesn't have ulcers in his stomach-he was scoped.

Kim-I could be allergies. He's allergic to EVERYTHING, but is on allergy shots.

certifiedgirl- That doesn't sound like it. Kiwayu had/has one big "sore" in a different area on his gums each time. It gets really red.

[Boston Chicken]

If he were mine, I would haul him to the clinic or nearby animal hospital and have them run tests up and down to see what the heck was going on. Also have him on IV fluids constantly...So sorry this is still happening.

[Kiwayu]

Boston Chicken- Unfortunately, the nearest clinic or animal hospital is about 4 hours away out of state. There's nothing on Long Island. Kiwayu has been doing much better this past weekend, but I just want to know why he keeps getting these mouth uclers. I guess I'll see what my regular vet and the equine dentist (who's also a vet) says tomorrow. Man, I hate how everything happens on either the weekends or holidays. I don't like waiting.

[cgn38]

Just a thought - have you had your water tested recently? A lab could do a thorough analysis and you could rule that out.

[Kiwayu]

Our water has never been tested. What would you test it for?

[Adelita]

I am pretty sure the mouth ulcers are related to the recurring herpes in his eyes, and were held at bay by the Lysine. I completely agree that the withdrawal of Lysine is related to his mouth ulcers.

I too had a horse with recurrent equine herpes (not the respiratory kind, btw) and he would suffer mouth ulcers, esophageal ulcers, eye ulcers, skin ulcers, sore skin, warts, sarcoids, you name it. It sucks to have a horse (or a cat, which I have too) with an immune system problem. Lysine helped immensely.

(((((((hugs))))))) to you and your boy.

[Phaxxton]

I also agree that the mouth ulcers are due to the withdrawal of Lysine.

I am sorry to hear about your problems with colic. Good luck. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Noodles]

When talking to a horse transport company the woman mentioned some kind of mouth "sore" problems that seemed to be contagious since a few states needed verification the horse did not have it.

I am not sure what it is called, but sometype of disease outbreak???

[Cherry]

Noodles, that disease would be "vesicular stomatis", that appeared in the thread on the PedEq board that certified girl posted.

I highly doubt that is what Kiwayu has and feel it is instead a reaction to the lack of Lysine in his diet. When I had mouth ulcers my pharmacist told me to take massive doses of Lysine as it helps with tissue repair--it worked. Call your vet and ask him if it's okay to add the Lysine back into your horse's diet--if I had a horse with the problems Kiwayu has I would never stop giving the Lysine! It's an essential amino acid for horses and one that they cannot manufacture on their own. If your vet has a problem with adding Lysine back into your horse's diet have him call the ophthalmologist! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Whitfield Farm Hanoverians]

This may sound just so simple that you've tried it all but have you switched him to a senior feed (slowly) & fed it totally wet as a mash for 3-4 feedings a day in small amounts & also kept only the best hay, something like T&A, straight timothy, or dengie type product of haylage? Also why not start a gastro-guard product daily as directed & see if the symptoms are alleviated. I know that several of my patients (& myself) have GI discomfort if they don't take pepcid, tagamet,zantac, etc., yet have no signs of ulcers. Good luck. I know this is a terrible problem to have to correct/watch your horse go through. Wish you both well!

[Kiwayu]

Thanks for all your replies! I'm sure the vet will okay adding the Lysine back into his diet tomorrow. Since Kiwayu was colicing so much, weeek after week, she wanted me to stop everything and stick to just plain grass. Then after about 3-4 days we slowly started adding Equine Senior (which is the grain he eats normally). This past Saturday, she told me to start adding soupy hay cubes (he normally eats them too). I should get the okay to starting feeding small amounts of dry hay tomorrow. I asked the vet about giving U-guard or mylanta, and she said not to right now. She wants his diet plain and simple.

With all the fireworks (stress), I'm just praying that his herpes doesn't come out in his eye. I keep checking his eyes with a flashlight to see if it has come back. I'm paranoid.

[Kiwayu]

Well, both the vet and the equine dentist think that the ulcers are related to his herpes. Just lovely...http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif My regular vet wants to consult with another vet and is supposed to get back to me. The dentist told me to watch and make sure the ulcers don't bleed, and that Kiwayu keeps eating, otherwise don't worry.

Anything else I have to worry about that my vet(s) missed?

[J Swan]

You don't feed alfalfa, do you? There is no possibility it could be blister beetles?

Yes, there is a disease that causing ulcerations - but I think it's rare. I'll try and remember the name of it.

[Huntertwo]

Just tossing out another idea, but its been terribly hot and humid here in the north east.
I'm in CT. Could the heat and humidity be a possible source of the colic?

Is he drinking enough? I had a gelding who coliced constantly also. The guy never drank, even in the middle of summer. Talk about stress!
I finally sold him to a friend who knew about his problems.
It may sound harsh, but I was getting anxiety over it. I just couldn't deal with the phone constantly ringing at supper time with the B.O. on the other end telling me my horse was colicing again!

I know how your feeling and hope you get to the bottom of it.

[Kiwayu]

J Swan- I do feed alfalfa cubes, but always have for the past 4 years. Though, these last 10-15 bales of hay we have, do have some alalfa in it. What exactly are blister beetles? Please see if you could find out the disease that causes ulcerations.

Huntertwo- Kiwayu does NOT drink much at all. If I get about 1-2" of a 5 gallon bucket in him a day, I'm consider lucky and having a good day. This is why I feed hay cubes, at least I can get a little more water in him. He won't touch any food that is watery. It's like water is toxic to him. My vet thinks it's the lack of water intake and the heat that is making him colic as well. I think I know how you felt. I have anxiety over my horse as well.

[Huntertwo]

Heres what Tuft's recommended to us after ending up there during a bad case of impaction colic.

Get a spray water bottle and fill with with a salt-water mixture and spritz his hay. And I also put salt in his grain. It really help alot! Good luck

[J Swan]

Don't worry about the blister beetles.

Try this site - http://www.merckvetmanual.com/mvm/index.jsp?cfile=htm/bc/52500.htm

I was thinking of vesicular stomatitis - but I'm sure your vets already rule it out.

[ljcfoh]

I don't know how much time your horse spends outside, but there is a type of clover poisoning which can cause colic and oral lesions (among other things). You might want to check on it as this type of clover could also get mixed into hay and perhaps he's come into contact with it somehow. I hope he gets better soon.

[Kiwayu]

ljcfoh- Kiwayu is outside 24/7 but in a dry paddock. His stall is attached to the paddock. What type of clover? I really haven't seen that much clover in this hay-mainly grass and a little alfalfa.

Huntertwo-Kiwayu won't touch salt. If you put it in his bucket on his food, he won't even go near it, nevermind try it. He's a pain in the a$$. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

[ljcfoh]

Alsike Clover -- you can see a lot of info on it if you do a search on the name and horses. There are a number of types of clover that can cause issues, but alsike (it has the pink flowers) is the one I just read about the other day.

[Simkie]

Does Kiwayu like watermelon?

It's a pretty easy way to get water into a reluctant drinker http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Kiwayu]

Simkie- Kiwayu LOVES, and I mean LOVES watermelon!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I never even thought about that!!!! THANKS A MILLION!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I do usually give the rines as well, but since we're having issues I'll just give the fruity part. How much is safe to give at one time, you think?

[Sandbarhorse]

Hey Kristen,

Sorry to hear about Kiwayu. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif Seems like he's determined to give you an ulcer this year. Which dentist do you use, Dr. K?

Nothing useful to add, but jingles.

[Kiwayu]

Hey Sandbarhorse! How are all your guys doing? I use Dr. Durnin for an equine dentist, and love her. She puts up with me, which is a major plus. I questioned her for about 30 minutes on the phone the other day about everything that has been going on. Unfortunately, I think I should start taking U-gard or some product like that as a precaution for uclers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Of course, Kiwayu and I were planning on going to our first show together this coming weekend, and obviously that ain't happening any time soon. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif So much for having a productive summer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Huntertwo]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kiwayu:


Huntertwo-Kiwayu won't touch salt. If you put it in his bucket on his food, he won't even go near it, nevermind try it. He's a pain in the a$$. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if you spritzed his hay with the salt water combination do you think he would turn down his hay?

[Sandbarhorse]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kiwayu:
Hey Sandbarhorse! How are all your guys doing? I use Dr. Durnin for an equine dentist, and love her. She puts up with me, which is a major plus. I questioned her for about 30 minutes on the phone the other day about everything that has been going on. Unfortunately, I think I should start taking U-gard or some product like that as a precaution for uclers. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Of course, Kiwayu and I were planning on going to our first show together this coming weekend, and obviously that ain't happening any time soon. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif So much for having a productive summer. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Might be a good precaution to take. Ah, I've never used her, but you know how curious I am. I hope you figure out what his problem is. He probably heard about the show plans and decided that he'd rather not. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif If I think of any ways to get more water into him, I'll post back, as that could def. be part of the problem. Does he have a big trough/bucket type of drinking option? For some reason, all of mine would rather go outside and drink out of that big blue bucket than drink out of their little ones. For April, even if that water is icy and she has warm inside, freak that she is.

All of them are doing well. The OTTB has done pretty well with Jen at WP, believe it or not. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Thanks for asking.

[Kiwayu]

Huntertwo- I'll try it, but if it's to rain on his hay, he won't touch it. He'd rather leave the flake in tack than take a bite. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I can't tell you how many times he's left whole flakes sitting outside when it was drizzling, while he was inside his stall looking at it. He'll even leave them whole inside if something is "wrong" with it. I swear he's out to get me sometimes...

Sandbarhorse- Kiwayu has two 5-gallon buckets in his stall, and a 5 gallon bucket hanging on the fence in his paddock outside. I did get him a big muck bucket to drink out of for outside, but until I get a chance to mark off lines on it (to tell how much he's drank) he ain't getting it. The only problem, which I'm dreading, with any type of big bucket on the ground in his paddock, is that he plays in it and tends to tip it over. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif It will make it hard to tell how much he's drank when he puts his feet in it.

In the last 24 hours Kiwayu has drank 1/2" of his 5-gallon bucket (if that much) just to get an idea of what a HORRIBLE drinker he really is.

[gabz]

How about adding flavorings to his water?
Pepsi, Coke, apple juice, packets of kool-aid (pre-sweetened - WATERMELON flavored LOL). I've even put the starlite peppermints in water jugs to flavor water (my horse LOVES peppermints)

I have heard of people floating pieces of apple and carrot in a water bucket too - the horse ends up drinking to get the treats.

Is there any possibility that the sores in his mouth are irritated by drinking?
good luck.

[Kiwayu]

gabz- Thanks for the suggestions, but I've been there, done that! I've done the Apple juice, kool-aid, molasses, peppermint extract, gatorade, and even put cut apples and carrots in the water buckets. NOTHING WORKS! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I'm afraid to try coke or pepsi because it's carbonated. I have enough problems with colic, I don't need gas colic on top of it. The mouth ulcers aren't in a place where he chews, but maybe they do hurt?

My vet thinks that maybe I should have him scoped again. He was last scoped 1+ years ago. He stomach was the cleanest the vet has seen in years, and Kiwayu was just as stressed then as he is now. You guys think I should fork out the money and do it again?

[Jodigurl]

What about electrolytes in the feed to make him drink more? My horses love the flavored electrolytes, I feed them daily in their feed and they drink tons.

The water drinking (or lack thereof) is probably your biggest issue. Horses should drink between 10-20 gallons of water daily to be optimally healthy. (Makes cleaning stalls such a joy http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) When using buckets make sure you use two 5 gallon buckets and keep them filled. Horses will rarely drink both buckets all the way down. They usually drink one down and "save" the other, I don't know why!

[Kiwayu]

Jodigurl- Kiwayu does get electrolytes and still doesn't drink. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif Unfortunately, I could probably fill all three 5-gallon water buckets, go on vacation for about 1-2 weeks and still have water left when I came back. My vet tells me all the time that horses should drink about 10-20 gallons of water daily, but my horse doesn't seem to want to follow the rules. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Jodigurl]

Perhaps you may have to resort to paste form of electrolytes? Force feed him? See my post on sarcoids for more info.

[PiedPiper]

Jodigurl- She said that the horse gets electrolytes but still won't drink.

I think it is safe to assume that Kiwayu has tried every "normal" idea to make this horse drink and quit colicing. Really my only recc is to take him to a clinic even though it is quite a ways away. I hope your vet can get this figured out before resorting to that. Good luck with it and my thoughts and wishes for cooler weather. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[FindersKeepers]

I had a pony that was a terrible drinker...we gave her bran mash everynight, really soupy and would add apples to it, then we knew she was at least getting that much water. SHe too colicked constantly, was on electrolytes, tried it all.

I'm sorry he's being so difficult for you. Stay strong, you're being an amzing horse mommy

[Simkie]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Simkie- Kiwayu LOVES, and I mean LOVES watermelon!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I never even thought about that!!!! THANKS A MILLION!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I do usually give the rines as well, but since we're having issues I'll just give the fruity part. How much is safe to give at one time, you think? </div></BLOCKQUOTE> I'd probably start off with just a few slices, but I bet you could work up to a bucketful http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

If he likes it that much, maybe you could even trick him into drinking a couple inches of water with it!

[Kiwayu]

I think when I go to the barn tonight (for the 100th millionth time today) I will try some watermelon with a little water mixed with it. If I can get him to take that in, then I will slowly add more watermelon and water to the mix. I pray that this works. If it does then this is going to be a daily thing, but if not I think I'm going to shoot myself... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

All I know is that if I didn't own this horse, he'd be long dead. He has no idea how lucky he is.

[Buffyblue]

Have you tried shooting a mixture of salt and water into his mouth with a dosing syringe? My vet had me do that with a horse I had that wasn't drinking. The koolaid in water trick also worked for her. Especially after the mouthful of salt!

[gabz]

Kiwayu - I'm sorry - yes you did mention you had tried every known trick to get him to drink... I had forgotten.

All I keep thinking of is a TURKEY BASTER!! LOL...

My horse has been gobbling his food - he used to leave some of it for "snacks" later. The only change is 2 heaping teaspoons of $1 a bottle garlic powder!! His feed smells like italian sausage - but he seems to LOVE the garlic. ???

[Kiwayu]

I think I might try the garlic, if he won't eat "soupy watermelon". Someone suggested to me to try putting a few carrots in a food processor, add water, and see if he likes carrot juice. Maybe I'll try that as well. I hate that all these ideas have a lot of sugar in them, but I guess a sugar high is better than an impaction colic with me standing there all night watching IV fluids going into him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Simkie]

Kiwayu, this may be a little extreme (but hey--you're willing to try anything, right? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif) have you thought about picking up bottled water for your boy? And perhaps a new or different type of bucket? Perhaps something WIDE--maybe he doesn't like to stick his head in a narrow space?

Have you played around with the temperature of the water?

I assume the vet tubed him with fluids when he coliced--did he drink better after that? I read (somewhere...) that if they stop drinking, the thirst instinct kind of shuts down, and sometimes tubing them with water a couple times will jump start their drinking....

[Kiwayu]

Simkie- I've tried different color and shaped buckets, fresh water, old water, and I've even tried placing it in different parts of the stall. NOTHING works. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif The vet did tube him and he drank even less than he does now. The following days after the tubing he drank NOTHING, and now he'll at least drink about 1-2" of a 5-gallon bucket daily. I was actually thinking of trying to give him bottled water such as Fruit2O, or something flavored like that. Very expensive if he does like it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

**I have a question: Today I threw him on the lunge line for about 10-15 minutes just to get him moving, and he was SOOOO STIFF!!! He has been off his Senior flex for about a month, but do you guys think maybe this is all happening from Lymes disease? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Adelita]

Hmmm...I've known a horse with Lyme, who had constant colic, was stiff and lame, and just not well. Have you had a Lyme titer done?

[Adelita]

Another bucket suggestion, although you've probably done it.....look for a light colored bucket. They make them in pink, I think. My mare won't drink out of a black or dark blue bucket for anything, I think it looks like a black hole.

I hope the watermelon works. He seems seriously dehydrated if he's not drinking at all..you may need IV fluids?

[Kiwayu]

I've never had a lyme titer done on him. I see my vet this coming Wednesday for another animal. If he's still stiff I'm going to mention it to her.

The watermelon idea *kinda* worked. He did drink some, but wouldn't finish it all. I think I pushed my luck when I added more water towards the end of him sucking it all up. After I added more water he backed off and left the rest.

[Kiwayu]

Anyone else think it might be lymes? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Ride'emVA]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kiwayu:
Anyone else think it might be lymes? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes.

[sid]

I'd run tests for the tick-borne diseases. They can feel just crummy all over. Worth a shot.

[Phaxxton]

Definitely test for Lyme's Disease...

Also, he's off electrolytes now, right? If he's not drinking and still on electrolytes, get him off the electrolytes. They're only dehydrating him more.

[Kiwayu]

Phaxxton- Kiwayu is off EVERYTHING but hay, grain, and hay cubes. The vet is having me give him metamucil daily at the moment, but that's it.

[sid]

I haven't gone through the entire thread, so someone may have already posted this. This is a recipe that I developed 15 years ago as a last resort for my VERY OLD, 40yr+ who was colicking and refused water, but could not tolerate too much tubing. He had an impaction and was not a surgical candidate at his age, nor could he be transported to the hospital for IV fluids. Okay, we're talking a LONG time ago when IV's were not allowed to be tended to "on farm".

Alfalfa water (aka, "the juice of life"). I provide it horses who show even mild symptoms of colic, as fluid is ALWAYS helpful:

One gallon HOT water soaked with about a pound or more of straight alfalfa cubes for about 1 hr...strain of the solids off and give it as a clear broth in a ground feeder. It's so darned fragrant, they generally drink it up. Do this in REPLACEMENT of a cubes meal. Since he already likes cubes, it's "worth a shot".

Leave it there for awhile as it may look strange, but I know of few who don't eventually seek it, especially if they like cubes.

The only other thing I can think of that could be causing these frequent colics based on your description is possible intermittant rotation of the colon (not dehydration itself).

Sometimes it will flip back and forth, but often is not detected upon rectal palpation. It can go on for months, intermittently. I had a horse in my care that had similar symptoms. The colon finally tortioned 180% and we got him to surgery.

I know that sounds awful, but I'm digging through the vet care "archives" in my brain and that case comes to mind as being similar to yours.

[Kiwayu]

Thanks for the suggestion Sid. If I make his hay cubes soupy, Kiwayu won't touch them. It's like he thinks water is poison or something. Even if I were to make him a bran mash, he bobs for the bran at the bottom, and then leaves the water behind. He's a royal pain in the a$$!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Even my vet said, that he's the most difficult patient she's ever encountered. It makes you feel real good when your vet says that... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Something tells me Kiwayu might have another impaction colic coming his way in the next day or two if he doesn't pick up the water in take. He had 2 *small* piles that consisted of about 3-4 "balls", then made a bigger pile before I left for night check that was dry as could be. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif I threw him out in the rain on the grass for about an hour, hoping he'd take in at least some water.

[jetsmom]

Will he drink Gatorade? Mine loves it if I pour a little in my hand for him. If I gave him a bucket of it he would be in heaven. I know that sometimes people will add Kool Aid to their water to mask the taste...maybe something like that?

[JumpingPaints]

I'm sorry you're still going through all this!

The good news about watermelon is that it's about 90% water, so it's a decent replacement.

I'm not a vet, but the thing that bothers me about him not drinking, even when it's spiced with yummies like alfalfa juice, is that maybe his tummy feels so bloated and painful that he doesn't want to drink, because it just makes him more uncomfortable. I would lean towards the idea that there is some kind physical blockage in there, like a enterolith, as someone suggested earlier.

Good luck and please keep us posted.

[Kiwayu]

Jetsmom- I've tried gatorade. Didn't work. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

JumpingPaints- Kiwayu has never been a big water drinker. It's always been about 2-4" of a 5-gallon bucket daily, at least in the 4 years that I've had him.

All I know is that I can't go out and buy a watermelon for the rest of his life all year round. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[Kiwayu]

Kiwayu had a GREAT day today!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He drank about 2" as of dinner time today. (That's a lot for us. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/uhoh.gif) He was pooping a lot, feeling great, and moving wonderfully. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Of course, he had to have a hive on his thigh bigger than the size of a soccer ball, but that we can deal with. Better than dealing with a colic. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I cold hosed it for about 10 minutes, and if it's still the same size later tonight then I'll give him some hydroxyzine. Still there by Monday and the vet is getting a phone call. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I think he got bit by something. Aww well, so far things are looking brighter!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Fairview Horse Center]

Have not read the whole thread, but how about really wet grass - and a lot of it. I know that when we have had decent rain, my 150 gallon water troughs get low somehwere between 5 to 10 days, but when the ground has been really dry, they drain the troughs every day. They can get a LOT of water in grass.

[Lookout]

I know this will sound wacky but have you ever had him chiropracted? I have seen many a horse take a long bucket emptying swill of water after a thorough adjustment. The idea being that the blood vessels are being impinged and this increases their volume, which then must be filled with fluid.

[Kiwayu]

Fairview- I do graze him everyday for about 45 minutes. I even turn on the sprinklers before hand if time allows me.

Lookout- That's interesting. I should ask if my vet does adjustments. If not, I know another vet that does. I've never actually looked into it. I don't do a lot of riding. Kiwayu is basically a big dog that I can hack around and enjoy.

If you guys have any other suggestions to get Kiwayu to drink, please list them. I'm desperate!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[JB]

A chiro is a good suggestion, and don't rule out some accupuncture either.

[Kiwayu]

JB- My vet actually did accupuncture on Kiwayu about 2 weeks ago. I can't say I noticed much difference.

[Kiwayu]

I forgot to add...

Do people get their horses adjusted even if nothing is really "wrong"??? I've never seen a horse get adjusted before.

[Spurt]

Jug him, a electrolyte jug, he might take a few more jugs to get him rehydrated. Its a common procedure for horses that colic in hot weather, to get jugged, it can take several though for them to get right. After that they usually start drinking water again.
Have another vet come out, second opinions and even third opinions in these sitatuations are necessary.
Give him paste electrolytes until a vet can come jug him(this will be IV).
Just give him plenty of fresh water, no need to add stuff.
Feed him salt(try just out of your hand or in his feed) this will make them thirsty.
If he still is acting like his stomach is hurting, take him off his grain and just feed him good quality hay.
Pull a thorough blood again. Scope him again. But by all means get another vet out, alteast one maybe two. If not send him to a clinic he could have some sort of blockage in their(foreign object, impaction, twisted gut).

[Spurt]

I didn't read any of the previous posts, not yet. But is he sweating?

[Spurt]

Can you keep him outside all the time? Movement is probably the best for him, especially since you've said he has been stiff.
I really would have your vet give him a IV and atleast get him rehydrated that way and maybe he'll feel alot better. Its fairly cheap.

[Buffyblue]

Glad to hear he's feeling better today, in spite of the bug bite or whatever it is! However, I'm thinking two inches of water all day!!!! I would be freaking out! I think you mentioned before that there are no equine vet clinics close to you, but doesn't Dr. Beroza still work out of the West Hills Polo Club location in Huntington? I don't know him personally, but have a friend who boards there. I keep my horse in NJ so we have 2 clinics near me. I would just think I would feel the need to get a complete workup done in a clinic setting at this point. The not drinking thing would really have me worried. Can you just grab a handful of salt and rub it on his teeth? (Sorry! I'm running out of ideas here!) Hang in there!

[horse_poor]

I think of you and K every time I leave the barn-the first think Rothina does after hand grazing and hand walking is drink an entire bucket of water. So driving home I try to brainstorm ideas for the anti-water loving K.

Can you put salt on the watermelon? What about getting the electrolytes that come in a syringe? I am sure you tried soaked beet pulp...what about soaked beet pulp with watermelon in it? Maybe you could sneak a bit more water into it.

I like your idea about letting him graze in the sprinklers.

What about putting the hose on a mist setting and sticking it in his mouth? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Kiwayu]

Spurt- Kiwayu has access to his paddock 24/7 with his stall attached. When he's inside, that's his own choice. No one is forcing him in there.

Buffyblue-I freak with only 2" of water daily as well, but unfortunately, he's never been a big water drinker in the 4 years I've had him. Dr. Beroza is still around here, but I couldn't afford that, and my vet doesn't recommend him. Kiwayu had a complete blood pannel drawn last week. All was normal. My vet honestly feels that the impaction colic he had along with all the stress of the constant fireworks, and his herpes virus coming out, that it just did him in. Ohh, and he's a HIGHLY stressed OTTB to begin with. Whenever anything little happens to Kiwayu it turns into something big. For example, three months ago Kiwayu choked. Vet came did what they had to do, next 2 days Kiwayu wouldn't eat, then it turned into an impaction colic, which then lead to a respiratory inflection. Nothing is simple with this horse.

horse_poor- It's nice to know I'm thought of! I've tried soaked beet pulp. That doesn't go over well with him. I've actaully been shooting the hose up his mouth everyday, but it's hard to tell how much he's taking in. I mean, a lot gets spit or drooled out. It's kinda funny because he loves the hose anywhere in his face.

[prudence]

Sorry to hear of your problem - we had a filly colic repeatedly this winter. It turned out she had an internal abscess and after much treatment she is fine.

You can check for hydration by pulling up on the skin on his shoulder. If it makes a "tent" that stays up briefly, he is dehydrated. Lots of people do this on the horse's neck, but if the horse is older the tent will stay up anyway because like an older person's skin, a horse's skin becomes less elastic with age.

Also, you can look at his capillary refill rate in his gums; if you indent his gum with your finger you can see it pale and then it should "refill" and get the color back quickly. If he is severely dehydrated, best to have the vet give him fluids. Good luck.

[Stono Ferry]

I haven't read the whole thread but have you tried letting him bob for apples? Cut up an apple, give him a piece or 2 and then put the rest in the water bucket. They will float. Hopefully he will go after them , drinking in the process. I have had this work several times. Might also work with watermelon, since he likes that but I don't know if it will float or not. Carrots sink. Good Luck.

[Spurt]

If he has always drinked out of his usual bucket or trough, even though he didn't drink much I think changing around the buckets isn't going to help. When a horse that used to drink(even though limited) stops, its not because of the color of a bucket or whatever treat is in there.

[Kiwayu]

Kiwayu looked good this morning again!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif He drank 2" total from yesterday morning to this morning. Yes, I know, not enough, but at least it's something! Unfortunately, there were fireworks last night and he freaked/stressed out again. I swear my poor boy can't get a break. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif Hopefully, this will continue to go in a positive direction... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I'm so afraid of this week though. It's supposed to be in the 90's and humid starting tomorrow, and if he's not drinking, I don't even want to think of where this can go. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[Phaxxton]

Glad you're seeing progress!

I'm curious to know if he sweats normally...?

[horse_poor]

As usual, I was thinking of the two of you as I was driving home from the barn--have you tried beer? Or Cherry Kool Aid in the water? Or molasses in the water?

Phaxxton asked a great question-does he sweat?

I think you are getting the hot weather we have--it is BRUTAL--90s, blazing sun, and humid. Rosina goes thru at least 2 buckets in her stall and about a quarter of a muck bucket in her paddock-put K on the grass with the sprinkler!

[Kiwayu]

Yup, Kiwayu sweats! It's not excessive, but it isn't a little either.

The little bastard is catching on too. Tonight he's starting to walk away from his "watermelon soup". http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif Today we had about 1" gone from his bucket, and it's getting hotter. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

[Simkie]

Poor Kiwayu. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

At least you know enough about his water habits to call in a vet to tube him if he's REALLY not consuming enough.

[Kiwayu]

Well, I'll be seeing the vet today (for a different animal and different owner!!) and will talk to her again about his water in-take not increasing. I wonder what she'll say today since it has gotten so hot out...Otherwise Kiwayu is pooping and acting good.

[gabz]

I say just feed him the watermelon. No need to make a soup out of it. It's got lots of water. (smatter of fact - I love it the morning after a "night out with social drinking"...

Turkey baster.

How about some quietex powder for a few days (I know, how are you going to get it into him...). I just mix it with a small container of applesauce and my horse inhales it... it might help tone him down for a few days so that he can relax a little. There's also the Calm & Cool paste (more expensive though) - small doses everyday?

My horse drinks 5 - 6" down on his 25 gallon tank everyday in this heat. I can't imagine 2" of a 5 gallon pail. Scary. All I can think of is that the water is causing him pain somehow... did you say he choked recently? (in the past 2 or 3 months?)

If he doesn't like the sweet flavorings... (and if he has any inclinatin at ulcers, I can see why - the sweet hurts); then go for the garlic mixed in his hay cubes when you soak them. Start with small amounts of garlic powder (1 teaspoon each meal, work up to 1 tablespoon each meal. The cheapest place to buy it, to try it, is at your nearby dollar store. If it works and you want larger volume, then CostCo, WalMart or Sams club.

[Adagio]

Just a thought, maybe not a good one but..
If your boy get's stressed easily and it is in turn effecting him physically how about a calming supplement like Quietex.
Maybe someone already suggested this, not sure but maybe the stress is playing out in his physical problems. It does for me.
Good luck

[Bacchus]

Read most of the thread--didn't see anyone mention straight, 100% pure apple juice. Organic is good. If he likes it, you can start diluting it with water. My horse loves apple juice! He also likes guava and mango juice http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Good luck with him--I hope he's doing better.

[Phaxxton]

The only problem with apple juice is that, if he DOES have ulcers, it could irritate them.

Have you tried putting his water in a different bucket or a different type of bucket?

Maybe he'd do better drinking out of something much wider or even shallower (like a ground pan?) or larger and wider (less claustrophobic) like a large (clean, obviously) muck bucket?

My guys are drinking gallons a day each in this weather, even the one who isn't doing much. I understand why you're so nervous... Poor guy. I really hope he's feeling better soon!

Oh, and I also agree with whomever suggested a chiropractic adjustment. It's possible it could help... I would only ever allow a vet that was a certified equine chiropractor do it, though. And, yes, even if you see no noticeable symptoms, it can and does help. I had a horse with no symptoms (or so I thought...) and when the chiro was out for my other horse, he adjusted the one that was fine, too. He needed a few adjustments AND he was much happier and moved better afterwards, too.

I still think it sounds like something else is going on with this guy... How old is he again?

[findeight]

Has the vet checked his throat out...probably with a scope to really see what's what?

He may have some type of chronic sore throat condition that makes it hurt to drink...I cannot imagine a horse living on just a couple of quarts of water day in and day out for all these years when 10-20 gallons is required daily.
Certainly very unusual.

[Buffyblue]

I heard of something new called EQUITEA, that the big equine hospitals use after surgery to encourage the horses to drink. Ask your vet about it. Good luck.

[Kiwayu]

I had hoped to really question my vet with a friend about Kiwayu today, but things didn't turn out as planned. First off, my friend's goat (who've I posted about before in January) was the one that needed the vet today. Unfortunately, the goat had to be put to sleep. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/cry.gif So that was a lot to handle, then when my friend and I started talking to the vet about my horse, she got a phone call about her own dog. Her dog had a stroke, from a cyst on her brain, and the vet herself began to burst into tears. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Plus, my vet had to put her cat down a few days ago. She was a mess! Very distracted about everything, so when I see her on Wednesday for my own animals I will have a list of questions for her. Hopefully her dog will be doing better by then. Also, I haven't seen my cat, Mango, in two days and I'm getting worried. What a day! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

I'm not putting Kiwayu on any supplements until I get the okay from the vet on Wednesday. Kiwayu is 19 years old.

[Kiwayu]

I see the vet tomorrow morning about Kiwayu. Could you guys help me come up with a list of questions to ask??? I have some already, but I want to make sure I've covered everything! Thanks.

[JumpingPaints]

Here are your facts:

Kiwayu continues to colic
Kiwaya has never consumed enough water
Not consuming enough water can cause colic

I would ask the vet what are the reasons a horse would not want to drink enough (barring those like electrolytes which you've tried) and what can you do to diagnose? Make sure you ask her about the possibility of a physical obstruction in his bowel, like an enterolith or tumor that might make consuming too much fluid uncomfortable.

Good luck and jingles to Kiwayu.

[onwardb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Kiwayu:
I see the vet tomorrow morning about Kiwayu. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Was your appointment today, Wednesday? And if so, what did your vet say???

Hope all is well...

[Kiwayu]

My appointment was on Wednesday (yesterday). My vet is all out of ideas why my horse isn't drinking since I've tried everything from bottled water to masking it with something. One thing she did say is that *maybe* his mouth uclers are actually an allergic reaction to the plastic buckets. (She said it's more likely his herpes-which she said to go back giving the maximum dose of Lysine.) She wants me to try a stainless steel bucket instead. Worth a try, I mean, what do I have to loose? If that's not it, I have the dentist, who's also a vet, coming next Thursday. Kiwayu does have a periodontal pocket in his mouth from two months ago when the dentist was last here. My regular vet said it's *possible* that maybe the periodontal pocket is aggrivated with water hitting it, so he just doesn't want to drink. The dentist did say she noticed that Kiwayu was eating with one side of his mouth because of the pocket. My regular vet wants me to VERY SLOWLY start going back to my regular exercise routine. We're hoping that once he starts doing something that maybe he'll drink more if these other issues aren't it.

Kiwayu has been looking great these past few days, with LOTS of poop being produced, and not stiff at all. Now if we can just get him to drink. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[gabz]

Good Golly - there's quite a bit going on there, then isnt' there?

Are horse's teeth sensitive like our teeth are, to cold? But the perio pocket being sensitive makes sense that he wouldn't want to drink because of it.
What can be done for that? If that's what it is?

[Kiwayu]

Gabz- The equine dentist already started to treat Kiwayu's perio pocket 2 months ago when we first noticed it. The treatment is "irritating" the pocket by cleaning it out, and then infusing antibiotics in there that stay in for about 2 weeks. Then 2 weeks later she came back again and did the same thing. The point being to create enough scar tissue for the pocket to fill up. I was told by someone that horse's teeth can be sensitive to the cold like ours, but I don't know if it's true. I'm curious to see what the dentist says. I do know that when Kiwayu had a serious eppisode of choke a few months back that it was caused by the perio pocket.

[EqTrainer]

Can you do a root canal on a horse? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Sounds like maybe he would need one so the nerve would not be irritated by the exposure to cold from the pocket. I HATE cold things on my teeth and can totally relate if this is why he won't drink. Of course you cannot ask him and so how to be sure?

Best wishes to both of you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Kiwayu]

Yup, now a days they are doing root canals on horses. The equine dentist told me they are. Kiwayu has already had a cavity filled-white filling too! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I do try to give him room temperature water, but maybe he relates that water = pain. I don't know...I wish he could talk. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif