help educate me re: feet...(added more pics p.3-4)

[jester1113]

Hmmm… I was just reading the eggbar thread and now I have some questions. I'm feet clueless other than I know they leave permanent dents when they make contact with your outer thigh.

My mare (had for 3.5 years) had never, ever had any sort of heel up front. I reducine-d them for two years and got a big fat nothing in return. I switched barns about a year ago which forced me to switch farriers. He put on wedge half pads for a few months and then we've just switched to aluminum shoes with the wedge built right in (as the pad was compressing her frog - that I actually understand). Normal shoes in back, although I've noticed she's starting to twist her feet out when she walks. Or maybe she's always done that and I'm just now seeing it as I look for signs of recurring susp injury/ringbone/abcess, etc that she's been plagued with the past year. Is there another option for her heels? How should I manage her ringbone, which so far knock wood, hadn't been an issue? She'll be 20 in March, looks 11 or 12. Until you look closely and see all of her battle scars. She has great hoof walls for a TB.

Then, my ottb gelding has two different front feet (I can't see it at all, but my farrier and trainer noticed it right off). So, he's got a wedge half pad on his RF and a regular old shoe on the left. He's barefoot in back.

JB - I read on the eggbar thread that wedges are BAD? Why? My trainer actually said his farrier cuts the heel back to stimulate growth. I mentioned this to my farrier and he's willing to try it.

Opinions? Theories? I tried reading the monster foot thread but it's just too, too long - can you point me to any salient pages perhaps? I'm going to visit the sites in the natural balance thread too…

Thanks…I'm shamefully ignorant when it comes to feet, angles, shoes etc. I'll gladly post feet pics this weekend if you need them.

Only connect...

[This message was edited by jester1113 on Jan. 20, 2004 at 08:13 PM.]

[jester1113]

Hmmm… I was just reading the eggbar thread and now I have some questions. I'm feet clueless other than I know they leave permanent dents when they make contact with your outer thigh.

My mare (had for 3.5 years) had never, ever had any sort of heel up front. I reducine-d them for two years and got a big fat nothing in return. I switched barns about a year ago which forced me to switch farriers. He put on wedge half pads for a few months and then we've just switched to aluminum shoes with the wedge built right in (as the pad was compressing her frog - that I actually understand). Normal shoes in back, although I've noticed she's starting to twist her feet out when she walks. Or maybe she's always done that and I'm just now seeing it as I look for signs of recurring susp injury/ringbone/abcess, etc that she's been plagued with the past year. Is there another option for her heels? How should I manage her ringbone, which so far knock wood, hadn't been an issue? She'll be 20 in March, looks 11 or 12. Until you look closely and see all of her battle scars. She has great hoof walls for a TB.

Then, my ottb gelding has two different front feet (I can't see it at all, but my farrier and trainer noticed it right off). So, he's got a wedge half pad on his RF and a regular old shoe on the left. He's barefoot in back.

JB - I read on the eggbar thread that wedges are BAD? Why? My trainer actually said his farrier cuts the heel back to stimulate growth. I mentioned this to my farrier and he's willing to try it.

Opinions? Theories? I tried reading the monster foot thread but it's just too, too long - can you point me to any salient pages perhaps? I'm going to visit the sites in the natural balance thread too…

Thanks…I'm shamefully ignorant when it comes to feet, angles, shoes etc. I'll gladly post feet pics this weekend if you need them.

Only connect...

[This message was edited by jester1113 on Jan. 20, 2004 at 08:13 PM.]

[slb]

Ohhh...please post pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I don't have time to compose an answer to your questions right now, but will be back to the discussion later.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[jester1113]

Yay! <happy dance!>

Only connect...

[Posting Trot]

I think the problem is that there's a very fine line between trying to help out a horse who has conformational problems or who has heel pain, or whatever, and then down the road actually exacerbating the original problem or creating a whole new set of problems.

Wedge pads fall into this category. They can be used short-term to assist with hoof-balance issues or when trying to reduce the strain on a part of the leg, but if used long term they often result in new problems. For whatever reason, and I don't know the mechanics of it, wedge pads do seem to contribute to contracted frogs and under-run or even sheared heels.

Sometimes that uneven front feet thing that you're noticing with your OTTB is something they're born with. But, just as often it's a result of trimming and shoeing that's been unbalanced, which has then changed the horse's way of going, which has then further changed the balance of the hooves, which has then further changed the horse's way of going, etc.

My personal preference would be, and I understand that this may not be appropriate for your horses, to pull the shoes for several months anyway. Get your farrier to give the horses regular balanced trims, put the horses on a high-quality protein/hoof supplement, and let the hooves grow themselves out. You can give your horses some time off, or you can buy them some Old Macs or Easy Boots to wear in front while you ride.

Good luck.

[JB]

Ok jester you've shamed me into posting pics of JB's feet. He started his barefoot journey 7 1/2 weeks ago and I could just kick myself for not having done it sooner. My only consolation is that I don't think his previous environment would have been conducive to great success http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif Anyway...

These are JB's front feet the day the shoes were pulled. He'd been 7 weeks since the last shoeing, 2 weeks over his normal 5-week routine. This is what long toes and underrun heels look like (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/JB/JB_front_feet_bad.JPG) - the bars of his feet were up past the tip of his frog http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif He also had wedge shoes on to try to help get some heel to grow. After 2 years you'd think something would have happened, but nope.

This is what his hind feet looked like (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/JB/JB_hind_feet_bad.JPG) after MANY years in first a wedge pad, then for the last 2 years wedge shoes. Not a pretty sight. I don't have any pictures of what his hind feet used to look like, but the wedges were orginally put on when he wsa 8-9, per the vet, to help his hock arthritis. If only I'd known then what I know now... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif


Here are his front feet, with shoes (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/JB/JB_front_feet_shoes.JPG) before they were pulled. If you look closely you will see the rf is more upright and narrow than the lf, which was, and always had been, more "splayed" and low. That heel was the most underrun.

Front feet after the shoes were pulled (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/JB/JB_front_feet_better.JPG) I actually can't remember if this was before or after the trim but I'm guessing because of the rasp marks it was after. There wasn't a LOT she could do that first time except back his toe up some more. I rasp his heels just a smidge about every other day to keep what growth he does get coming in a downward motion instead of forward.

Hind feet after the trim (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/JB/JB_hind_feet_better.JPG) There was SO much dead sole that she was able to remove, which then left a LOT of toe she could remove, which then put his angles at nearly what they were with the 3 degree wedge shoes he had on.

And finally his front feet again after the trim (http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/JB/JB_front_feet_bare.JPG) They were MUCH more even at this point, and have remained that way. Every other day I rasp his heels on the left, rasp them a little on the right, and about once or twice a week I rasp the rest of his foot, paying attention to keep his toes "mustang rolled". There was very little the farrier did the last time, after 6 weeks. She took a little toe off, a little heel off, and rasped a small amount, so I'm on the right track keeping him going.

So, what does this mean? This means that you have to find the RIGHT farrier. Until I can find the right one near where I am, I have to have the right one come to me from GA. Small price to pay to get JB's feet properly balanced, even if he is 20 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Just because your mare has never ever had any heel most likely means that she has always been underrun there which is actually TOO MUCH heel, just all growing in the wrong direction.

My opinion for you? Lose the shoes, all of them. That's the easy part. The hardest part is going to be to find a farrier who will trim the feet properly and yes, most likely, that means trimming OFF heel. Can you post pics of her feet, both from a ground-level side view and from a solar view? Just say no to wedges!

[ChocoMare]

JB: Please read this article from the Farrier National Research Center of Georgia. It covers exactly what you're going through:

http://bwfa.net/fnrc/hoofcare/heels.htm

You can also e-mail them and send them the pictures you posted. They are very friendly and love to help. If you're up for a road trip, you can bring your horse to them for a consultation and some work.

[jester1113]

Sigh. I'll post pics over the weekend. I'll get front, side, back and if it really does hit the 30's this weekend, full body (just to show off my kids).

Here's hoping you all will look at them and say "Oh, jester, what on EARTH were you so worried about?" Here's me holding my breath: http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

Only connect...

[JB]

LOL Just be sure that your side/front view are from as close to the ground as possible, with the cannon bone straight up and down. The side/front shots should show the cannon bone as well as everything below it. Looking forward to it!

[LMH]

Chocomare I know for a FACT JB is in perfect hands now http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[ChocoMare]

Wonderful! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif Maybe you can help Jester too? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[jester1113]

Uh...how much do you think it would run me to fly up JB's farrier/equipment every 5-6 wks? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Only connect...

[LMH]

I have no doubt that jb's trimmer could solve jester's troubles in know time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The problem is it would require taking the barefoot plunge and didn't want to start that debate up again.

I am eagerly awaiting slb's response.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[Cherry]

When I see photos such as JB's horse's feet I just want to puke because I cannot believe that there are "farriers" out there who allow this kind of problem to develop!!! I'm still trying to decide if they purposely screw up a horse's feet in order to make more money from unsuspecting clients, or if they truly don't have the basic knowledge to be doing what they're doing!!!

Forty years ago I had no problem trusting farriers--I had not one that didn't know his trade, but in the past eleven years I have seen more poor farrier work than a little!!! What is going on here??? The point is that at one time you could trust a "professional" to do the right thing--I no longer believe this to be the case!!! We horse people must learn all that we can about our horses' feet because there are "farriers" out there who would cripple our horses (I, myself, had a very bad experience with just a trim, let alone shoeing!). JB, you were just lucky that your horse's legs and/or skeletal system was not unduly effected by that "farrier's" handiwork !!!

By all means jester, post pics of your horse's feet!!! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

I encourage the people on COTH to take a good, hard, long look at their horses' feet--before it's too late!!! If you would like to learn more about trimming and shoeing here are some books that I have or have read, or have looked at that seem to be understandable for the beginner:

Healthy Hooves Their Care and Balance - published by Equus Magazine

Complete Horseshoeing Guide - Robert F.
Wiseman

Maximum Hoof Power: A Horseowner's Guide
to Shoeing and Soundness - Cherry Hill and
Robert Klimesh

Well-Shod - Don Baskins published by
Western Horseman

The Principles of Horseshoeing II _
Dr. Doug Butler

The Natural Horse - Jamie Jackson

Before there was any of this "natural" stuff though, there was a good, proper trim for a horse's hoof so don't get hung up on what the "proper trim" is called--a good trim is a good trim--period!!!

Really good farriers seem to be hard to come by... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

"Everything looks good until you start to examine it!!!", uttered by me on more than one occasion

[LMH]

Cherry-Excellent point. Don't even think I have anything to add. Owners MUST educate themselves.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[JB]

Chocomare - yep, JB's feet are in VERY good hands now! I need to get some "after" pics. It's really strange - I HIGHLY advocate everyone taking these sort of pictures of their horse's feet to critically look at them. I KNEW JB didn't have the best trim (after finally getting educated a couple of years ago) and THOUGHT the new farrier (after firing the old one who said "I can't back his toes up, I'll make him sore" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif) was getting things taken care of. I KNOW his feet are better now than they were 2 years ago, but honestly, until seeing these pictures, I didn't really see how bad. I feel SO guilty knowing that all this probably contributed to JB's arthritis (at least didn't help) and whatnot, but I hold out hope that even at 20, fixing his feet will give him many more years of being a fun hack-around horse who is very comfortable with his body. Now where was I going with this train of thought... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Oh, anyway, his feet are MUCH better and I can see obvious, good changes. *mental note to get new pics*

Jester - I WISH you could get mine and LMH's farrier up to you! But somehow I think the trip from GA to MD is a weeeeee bit far even for her http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif However, I will ask her if she could recommend anyone closer to you. PT/e-mail me if you like and tell me exactly where you are.

Cherry - my thoughts exactly http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/dead.gif Makes me sick to finally realize how bad his feet were http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif To all: Note that JB's feet were trimmed for 13 years by a "Certified Journeyman Farrier" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Yeeaaahhh..... I don't think, at least in my case, that they do this on purpose. I really do think it's a modernization of "must have shoes, who cares how you trim, shoes will fix it all" farrier work. And Cherry, I am not so certain there haven't been skeletal effects from all this. In my education I am starting to put some pieces together that have been glaring me in the face for years, but have had no one knowledgeable to point out to me and have been in the position of "didn't know what I didn't know". His shoulders have probably told me his feet were having trouble for a long time. He's noticably different in his shoulders, left to right. The right shoulder is less developed than the right - the right foot has been more upright than the left for years. Coincidence? Unlikely.

And Cherry, I SO agree with the term "proper trim". Forget the "mustang trim", 4-pt trim, Balanced trim, whatever - it's ALL about how the horse is telling you his feet MUST be trimmed for his body. That's all. Sure, there are terms to make things more clear - "mustang roll" for the toes seems to be more clear than just saying "rocker his toes" or "roll his toes" because it's not that simple.

Ok, whew, next?!

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Cherry:
When I see photos such as JB's horse's feet I just want to puke because I _cannot_ believe that there are "farriers" out there who allow this kind of problem to develop!!! I'm still trying to decide if they purposely screw up a horse's feet in order to make more money from unsuspecting clients, or if they truly don't have the basic knowledge to be doing what they're doing!!!
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No, they don't make any more money that way than if they did it correctly. They really don't have the basic knowledge - it's pretty hard to learn, if you don't go to school. Few have the innate intuition to bypass this learning method, and the apprenticeship system seems dead too.

[goodhors]

A farrier having "basic knowledge" is one thing, but you are looking at a special problem. Basic knowledge should include being able to do a flat, level trim, making horse comfortable, shoe fitted to hoof, correct size, nailing shoe comfortably to hoof, expecting it to stay on for 6-8 weeks.
This is not an "average" backyard horse hoof. May be a 'common' problem in your eyes, but not for newer farrier. In all the horses you know with this same common problem, are they all shod the same? Knowledge takes time to learn. You have to do a number of each of these same problem horses, to develop a method that works. Practice.
Something else is the dynamics of living hoof, hoof is in CONSTANT change. The averages have some horses getting better, some getting worse, some with no change, no matter WHAT method is chosen to "fix" the SAME problem on all these horses. It can make a learning nightmare for the farrier. How can he trust his own methods, when perhaps three different methods all succeeded/failed on this same hoof problem? Dynamics on a living hoof will change with use, care, turnout, ground surface, amount of movement on each horse. His body style, large, small, fat or lightweight, will also affect changes. How horse carries himself in work, riders demands of collected or loose rein work, affect the hoof and body.

The American Farriers Association keeps trying to educate Farriers. There are a couple monthly magazines for Farriers, along with clinics to keep informed on current methods, what is working, not working, works in these situations. Other people, owners, CAN attend them! Dr Redden in KY, AFA Convention in Rochester NY, farrier clinic in Cincinatti, all coming up in the next couple months.
Education is always the key. You need to know what 'normal' hooves look like. Amazing how few there are anymore. All carrying some 'magic' to make horse 'better'.

There is some reason hoof pairs don't match. We have one who has one normal front hoof and a wider, lower heel hoof. She moves fine now, but did some weird leg/hoof things as a younger horse. Still worked very hard, good, sound competitor over many years. She was not farrier made, she broke her neck as a yearling. We found it with x-rays as a 6yr old. Also has the one flat shoulder. Hoof mis-match, shoulder muscling, are body carriage compensations. The old time stuff about walking around a horse, making sure he matches on both sides, strides evenly, proportions made like examples in book, is GREAT information! It was a SUCCESSFUL method of choosing a horse who could work with less extra effort, last longer in work!! This same horse of ours, won the first place from horse judging team, several Halter classes as a young horse. They all thought she had the prettiest face, OK body and she is big. Didn't really look past the beautiful eyes. Looking but not SEEING what is in front of them.

[Cherry]

Lookout, there may be a whole lot of people out there who have been convinced that they have to shoe their horse because the "farrier" has told them the horse has to have shoes in order to be serviceable!!! That was my inference--how many people defer to what their farrier tells them??? A lot of horse people, I would guess... In the meantime they go on trimming these poor horses (and shoeing them) in a manner that is not conducive to a horse staying sound!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

What is really scary is some of these "farriers" have been to farrier school!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif To quote JB, "JB's feet were trimmed for thirteen years by a 'Certified Journeyman Farrier'..." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Goodhors, JB looks like he has pretty decent feet; what do you mean "this is not your 'average' backyard horse hoof"??? We aren't talking about some anomaly here--underrun heels are made!!!

I have a horse with a mild club foot and most of the farriers I have had in to trim my horse's feet have done a poor job indeed with it!!!! We aren't talking about hard core problems or gross congenital deformities here!!! The average farrier should be able to handle these problems--I am sure some of them see these problems everyday, but they aren't even educated well enough to recognize them, let alone know how to fix them!!!! It's pretty sad when the owner of the horse knows more about the horse's feet and how they need to be trimmed than the "farrier" whose livelihood depends on his knowledge of same!!! They sure charge like they know their stuff!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif I can't tell you the number of "farriers" I've gone through in the past eleven years--they just don't have the necessary skills to do a proper trim!!!! I don't want my horse crippled and I don't think anyone else does either!!!

Practicing the farrier trade without having the proper knowledge is tantamount to fraud in my opinion!!!

"Everything looks good until you start to examine it!!!", uttered by me on more than one occasion

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB:
http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/JB/JB_front_feet_bare.JPG They were MUCH more even at this point, and have remained that way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Has the left front become more even since this photo was taken (it looks inside high in this photo)?

[Paddys Mom]

I think carelessness is part of it too. I had a farrier that started out good. Paddy's feet looked great and he moved great. But after doing trim after trim after trim, it seemed like he was just taking off x amount from each hoof and not looking at the hoof overall and saying - I need to trim more on this side to get the angle back, etc.

I compare it to my mediocre hair stylist. She gave me a great haircut one time, but as I kept going back for my trims, she would jsut trim off 1/2" of hair everywhere and let the overall shape of the haircut to go to hell.

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JB:
http://equestriangardener.homestead.com/files/JB/JB_front_feet_bare.JPG They were MUCH more even at this point, and have remained that way.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Has the left front become more even since this photo was taken (it looks inside high in this photo)?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I will try to remember to look tonight. Dang digital camera sure would be handy! The "inside high" might be a little deceiving - the aisle there is (obviously) dirt and is not level - slopes from one side to the other - and isn't flat either, so I'll have to see what I can see.

[slb]

Paddys Mom....you make a good point. However, it isn't exactly carelessness. The comparison to your hair stylist is an excellent one. What happens is that the farrier trims/shoes the foot as it is, not for what is should be. That is they do exactly what the hair stylist does...they believe that the foot will grow evenly (usually refered to "as nature intended") and just keep trimming a little off the bottom (the old growth that is being replaced at the top by the new). By not thinking ahead to what the foot will do as the weeks go by until the next appointment, the foot begins to grow out of balance (especially in shoes). When they are barefoot, the foot has a chance to wear itself more evenly and thus helps in keeping itself balanced. "Good" farriers don't just trim and balance, they also make adjustments for what lies ahead. It really isn't the fault of farriers or their training. It is simply a lack of foresight.

As far as certification goes. That is understandably a problem. We are led to believe that if a person is certified in anything that they are fully capable of performing the task involved. After recently graduating from grad school, I have come to realize that our current systems of "certification" (regardless of what the field may be) are highly flawed. The student that can memorize and recite back their text is the student with the A. While other students that may be much more capable, but cannot remember the words in the text generally get a lesser grade. When it comes to certification for farriers, the object is to trim a "common" foot, create a "common" shoe and apply it within a time limit. It also requires that you understand how to make, but not neccessarily to apply or understand the use of several different "corrective" shoes....commonly presented as a shoe board. My husband has one of these shoe boards, and has never again made one shoe that is on it.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Paddys Mom]

Yes, I don't think "carelessness" was exactly the word I was looking for.

As far as certification [Note: I sure hope my boss never stumbles across this board.], I crammed and memorized and passed some Microsoft certification tests to become a Microsoft Certified Professional with no hands-on experience in some areas. I subsequently landed a job based on those credentials and boy did I have to learn fast! This was a one-person IT Department, so there was no one there to "out" me. I spent the next 4 years gaining a lot of seat of the pants experience and now feel I deserve that certification. Of course, no one was made lame by my inexperience. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[goodhors]

Sorry, I did not mean to infer that all horses need shoes, all of the time, or even part of the time. Barefoot is a fine way to keep a horse, not getting a lot of hard usage. PEOPLE think their horse NEEDS shoes, so that is what they order from the farrier. A horse in use, needs shoes, to be like other folks horses! People just "can't BEAR to look at chipped hooves". Used to be the expense would cause horse to not be shod, not anymore.

Do you take your horses to the farrier school to be shod? Do you take yourself to the Dental school to get your dental work done? The farrier schools I know of, get any kind of horse they can, to let students work on feet. Some go to the local horse Auction, just for the practice. Owners pay for the price of shoes, few bucks for trims. There is EVERY possiblilty that a new farrier has not seen a problem like this one. Depending on area, horses they have access to, students have a limited variety of animal problems to view, touch, experiment on. Seldom see any animal a second time, no follow up viewing. Depending on local area, large WB, big TBs might not be common, their style shoeing is never needed until that FATAL day your horse comes along. I don't see much in underrun heels in the kinds of horses I see at shows locally. Husband does in his farrier practice, when someone buys a new animal. We usually see the super short toe, no heel, navicular shoe job on Western style horse around here. That is WHAT THE OWNERS WANT, say they can't win with a longer toed horse, his feet are TOO BIG! Eggbars are SOO cool, all the BNT's have them on THEIR horses!

Where is the new farrier supposed to learn? You have already said you have gone thru a number of farriers, don't like their work. Apprentice programs, with experienced farriers, are hard to come by. A man has to eat, been to school, now he has to get to work. Previous postings have shown big distrust of a farrier with apprentice. No one wants the APPRENTICE touching THEIR horse!
Theory of hoof problems in a book, discussions of problems in class, does not aid the new farrier in real life, finding the correct solutions. He has to try those solutions, to find correct aid. Some farriers learn quicker than others. As I said before, some horses get better no matter WHAT is done/not done. Some don't.

Farrier trade takes a special kind of person, to be a good one. Kind of arrogant, to have the confidence needed to make decisions. That personality can go hard with needing to learn more as a farrier, and being a service oriented business. You do the same with a vet, some are horse vets, others are not, but they WILL make decisions. Perhaps you have more respect for their College degree, but it doesn't make them a good horse vet.
We enjoy hoof problem of the month, usually posted by Equus! Suddenly every other horse in the practice, has too long of a toe, high heels, whatever was in the article. Owner is suddenly an expert on hooves, though this is her first horse! They don't believe you when you try to say this is not the problem, it is how horse is ridden. SHE READ it in a magazine, printed word is smarter than the farrier of 30 years!

Farriers are not considered to be very smart, after all, they get DIRTY, SMELLY, every day. Smart folks have educations, use their brains, not muscles to earn money!! Lots of owners talk down to them, have a simplistic view of hitting steel with a hammer, kind of work. Not viewed as craftsmen, just hammer guys, should be cheap to hire! Some are highly skilled, some are not.

Some owners truly do know MUCH about hooves, legs. Some farriers will acknowledge that, discuss reasoning for work done, others just keep doing what they want. I guess you keep them or get someone else.
You can educate yourself, be knowledgeable, a continual learning experience, like we do. Then you apply what you know to your horses. Most people defer to vet or farrier because they don't WANT TO BOTHER LEARNING about hooves. ASK, get the reasoning behind the methods used. Watch what is being done, as horse is getting feet done, trimming or shoeing. Stop the process if farrier is doing something you KNOW won't work. Speak up to remind them of this horse's past problems.
There is no perfect shoe job. Horse is in continuous change. Horse has to be comfortable in his work. This may mean his feet are not halter perfect. He isn't made that way, toes out or in, something, you are not going to change his bones for the better, as an aged horse. Owner can't whine if farrier does "corrective work" to make him look straight, then horse is lame, when she asks for fixing his feet, make him "look better." Some farriers will refuse to do it, most won't. Makes most owner's happier to have "straight" toes.

For you folks with specific problems, know what horse needs. Cutting off heel on club foot is bad. Wedge pads just make horse smash heels harder, NEVER will help grow heels. Is the hairline of hoof LEVEL? The hairline is one of the FIRST indicators that horse is out of balance, shod or bare. Leave his shoes off a couple weeks, let horse balance himself, see what changes, then work on a recipe. If hoof has not changed in the last several shoeings to improve, CHANGE SOMETHING, don't wait months, years.

Made or not, JB's feet in shoes, are not a "backyard normal" hoof. That would be the pony who is ridden down the road, visits friends, played with on the trail, ring for several hours a DAY. Never has any problems, probably barefooted, to save expenses. I would consider JB's feet to be beyond average, new shoer. Club feet USED to be abnormal. I never saw one until about 15 years ago. Now they are everywhere, very acceptable in performance horse, breeding stock. Not what I want in MY horses, why buy problems?
The Farrier school gives students SOME knowledge, they are not totally unknowing about the leg and hoof. Depending on the school, they get better or worse information. Even a little knowledge is better than the person guy who just goes and buys the tools!
Farriers are self-made. Depends on the person involved. They push to learn, improve, do great work or just settle for what they know now, keep on working at the lowest level. Pay is an incentive, but being good is self-driven. Liscensing sounds good, but still doesn't tell you if a plumber or carpenter is good or bad. He just passed the test, may still be a poor workman.
If you think it is easy, jump in. My husband said he would give you a good deal on tool rental!! He gets some deals from guys who don't want to be farriers anymore!



[QUOTE]Originally posted by Cherry:
e because the "farrier" has told them the horse _has to have_ shoes in order to be serviceable!!! _That_ was my inference--how many people defer to what their farrier tells them??? A lot of horse people, I would guess... In the meantime they go on trimming these poor horses (_and_ shoeing them) in a manner that is not conducive to a horse staying sound!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

What is _really_ scary is some of these "farriers" _have_ been to farrier school!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif To quote JB, "JB's feet were trimmed for _thirteen_ years by a 'Certified Journeyman Farrier'..." http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

Goodhors, JB looks like he has pretty decent feet; what do you mean "this is not your 'average' backyard horse hoof"??? We aren't talking about some anomaly here--underrun heels are made!!!

[LMH]

My horses are in work, barefoot, and they don't have chips or cracks http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[JB]

"I would consider JB's feet to be beyond average, new shoer." - actually, I wouldn't! I would consider his feet to be a "normal" problem caused by tooooo many farriers who have been practicing for far too long. The particular farrier who got JB's feet that way? Been doing his feet for 13 years, was trained in part by his father who'd been trimming/shoeing his whole life. It wasn't like this farrier, or his father, saw just a few horses all the time with "normal" feet. They did our barn of anywhere from 16-30 horses for all those years. They do a LOT of QH trimming - wonder what the QH feet looked like? I never did see them. But I can tell you our barn was full of feet that looked exactly like JB's, and worse.

"Barefoot is a fine way to keep a horse, not getting a lot of hard usage."
Define "hard usage"

1. Is it trail riding?
2. Is it being worked 5 days a week w/t/c some jumping on surfaces ranging from good pasture to hardpan pasture with some rocks to a sandy ring to a screenings-filled ring?
3. Is it schooling for and competing in the Regular Working Hunters? Horse Trials? 3DE? Endurance?
4. Is it a Percheron being worked on the asphalt road?
5. Is it a Percheron being ridden in the mountains?

Rio fit the #2 description his entire 4yo year. He has never been shod and I never had a problem with his feet cracking/breaking except a couple of times during the worst of our drought. His feet were never sore. You bet he garnered some "OMG are you REALLY showing him without shoes??" looks and comments! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

I know of animals that fit the #4 and #5 descriptions who are nekked AND their feet still need regular trimming!

I certainly don't expect any farrier fresh out of school to have all the answers to hoof problems. But I DO expect a farrier with any sort of real-life experience to be able to trim a basic no-problems foot and fix one that has "normal" problems like long toes and/or low/underrun heels. Hell I can almost do that now and I haven't even been to school! But for a farrier, someone who's supposedly been trained, to not recognize that the horse's heels are TOO long, and underrun, and say that he isn't growing any heel at all let's put wedges on to lift his heels up, or for them to blatantly ignore the fact that the newly trimmed foot has a greatly backwareds-broken hoof/pastern axis, or for them to let the bars run on past the tip of the frog, is to me just ignoring the basics of foot mechanics and trimming the walls for a pretty look.

Boy, this is fun! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Lookout]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by goodhors:
the time. Barefoot is a fine way to keep a horse, not getting a lot of hard usage. /QUOTE]I don't know what your idea of hard usage is but there are barefoot endurance horses out there doing 50 and 100 milers and they are just fine without shoes.

[horse_poor]

i'm going to jump in on this one....

aero came to me with feet that made everyone scratch their head and say "what the fuh????"

shaped and angled weird, never ever grew, and just plain unhealthy looking----and he was never comfortable at all

well, i yanked his shos to his his toes some time to breathe then he bowed his tendon--up until this time i had worked with farriers i really liked and made a difference and farriers i liked to call butchers. when we bowed, my vet said she thought a shoe with a 3 degree wedge would help his tendon heal and at least make him more comfortable.

well, in the process of the tendon issues the vet mentioned she thought he was over at the knee and upon further examination, she noticed he had contracted heels and his hooves where uneven, like one leg was shorter than the other, giving him the feeling almost like a chair with 2 uneven legs that teetered back and forth.

but knowing the hitory of his feet i wanted to keep him barefoot a bit longer to let his feet "grow" ( isay that sarcastically becasue between january and july he was trimmed once and rasped another--the farrier checked him every 8 weeks and said there was little if nothing to trim)

we moved to the new barn and were introduced to a farrier new to the area from texas. he blooked at poor aeros feet and said WHOA. he then muttered something about what the He$# did people in this state do to these horses to cause such contracted heels and he had never seen so many contracted heels in his life.

i explained that the vet wanted the 3 degree wedge to help with the tendon and he said that made sense and that he wanted to put a bar shoe on aero to give him more support behind his foot so he wasnt walking on his heels so much and trim him over a series of times to move his break over ( i think thats the right term) point back because as it was then ut was ALL messed up. so he put a bar shoe on his with the barn set back a bit for more support...his heel actually is not butted up against the bar and its a wide bar allowing for the heels to uncontract (if that is even a word) a wedge on the bowed tendon foot, and then to give even more support to his sole (he noticed he had bruising all thru his foot when he trimmed him which he felt was due to the incorrect break over and angles and how he was striking the ground when he walked) he made a custom padd with acrylic--anyone seen this? he put a piece of styrofoan on the bottom of the shoe, pumped this stuff into the space between the heel of the shoe and the styrofoam, let it dry, peeled of the styrofoam, and voila, a custom pad that supported the sole and didnt allow gunk to get up inside and cause fungus.

can i just say my horse actually walked away from this session like he felt like a million bucks? the barn guy said aero wasnt laying down as much after he got his new shoes, which made sende to me because he feet didnt hurt as much.

my farrier comes and looks at him every 2 weeks or so and says he is pleased with the progress---and in the 6 weeks since he has had this done his foot has grown 1/4 an inch http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif not much by a normal horses standards, but for aero thats CRAZY! by looking at his heels he said they are starting to spread out a bit.

he is going to address the uneven leg/feet issue eventually but he wants to get the angles right and keeps reminding me this isnt something that happens over night.

i love this farrier because he takes the time to exxplain to me what and why--he even showed the contracted heel syndrom by using a paper coffee cup and how the toe affects the heel etc

there is nothing better than a good farrier

i would love if my shoes could be barefoot, but i am thankful there are people with the knowledge to put shoes on in a manner to help those horses who have special needs, like aero

Molly, Aristotle, and Brown Baggin' in MN
****************************
http://community.webshots.com/user/mavw1971
proud founder of:
~senior horse clique
~obsessed with clean/disinfected water bucket clique
~OMG i turned the wash stall into a laundromat clique

proud member of:
~i have no money but i still ride clique

"if ya aint got it on the flat, ya aint got it over the jumps....and dont let him use the wall as a crutch.." kristine pfister stephenson, 1992

[goodhors]

For JB and Lookout, I consider hard work for a normal hoof, 1.When the horse is wearing off hoof faster during use, than he is growing it back. 2.Horse needs extra traction to do his job safely. Both are good reasons to shoe a horse.

As stated, some horses get lots of mileage, never need shoes. Local ground surface will also have a bearing on abrasion of hoof. Rocks and gravel, wear hooves quicker than sand or dirt farm lanes. Swell for barefoot horse and owner, I have no problems with that. The concussion of much use, SHOULD stimulate growth, healthy circulation in hoof and leg. Concussion makes for harder, thicker hoof wall and sole. Good things for a horse to have.

My own horse goes barefoot most of the time. When I had to condition her, she was doing 5-7 miles a day on the gravel road, 3-5 days a week. This was for showing all day Sat. and Sun. on the weekends. Walk-trot-canter, gallop for wind, on the road, healthy, hard feet, no soreness. I was just wearing the hoof off faster than she could grow more. She needed shoes. She got 4 new steel shoes every six weeks, the metal was worn over halfway thru. Couldn't reset them. Trimmed off the walls, left the sole thick for protection from the gravel. I call that hard work.
A horse jumping on cross-country courses, practicing on grass or mud, heavy going. He needs traction help. Also a horse a lot doing pavement work. Both horses have to be able to keep their feet under themselves, wet or dry.
Some speed horses, barrel or pole horses, speed jumpers, do better without shoes. Some need extra grip of shoes. They are earning money, not out riding for casual use, not trimmed/shod for style. People looking to make money, have a BIG interest in what is being done to their money earner. They want whatever makes horse go his best. They learn, ask, recognize, what horse likes best. They don't let farrier repeat losing recipe. If horse is not winning, things are changed. Few will wait for the next scheduled appointment in 6-8 weeks. They call and get an immediate change in hoof recipe.
We are back to owner taking action, making changes in horse care. Making their problem known, or finding another solution, resolving the problem they perceive in their horse.

[LMH]

Pavement, shoes and traction??? I certainly must be missing something...actually I have never quite understand why people think a plain steel shoe provides traction.

I have watched the shod horses bust tail running down a hill and the barefoot ones keep on keeping on.

And on pavement-plus rain-slicker than owl doodoo...I would prefer barefoot for traction any day of the week.

And if they are wearing fast why not just use a hoof boot for training and let them otherwise stay barefoot?

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[Two Toofs]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I have no doubt that jb's trimmer could solve jester's troubles in know time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif The problem is it would require taking the barefoot plunge and didn't want to start that debate up again.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

They can also be solved with shoes. It's not the shoes that cause the problems, or fix the problems. It's the application and skill of the farrier.

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[goodhors]

I should have been clearer in saying the shoe was the ANCHOR for chosen traction device. Device can be rim and dirt of a rim shoe, borium smears, drive in studs, screw in studs. Something that grabs ground surface. You are correct in saying a plain steel shoe can be very slippery, both on dry grass or wet pavement, asphalt. Aluminum shoes have a little more natural grab because they are softer metal, still can slip plain. Soft is also why they wear faster.

Farrier should have the knowledge of this horse's work, to give horse the best hoof surface or shoes with traction device, to keep him upright and gripping his ground surface.

I don't really consider the various hoof boots when I look at a hoof package on a working horse. That is me. They are quite popular with people. Some boots can be hard to fit, horse has odd shape hoof. These will sore him up pretty fast. Lots of measures people take to work around these difficulties. Other boots are custom fitted to each hoof. Pricey but last well, seem to be easy to use with practice. With one horse, probably a workable solution.

I don't wish to take the extra time, effort on my horse or horses. I am not into lots of extra fussing just to be fussing with the horse. I am usually getting out several horses, cleaning them to go. Boots would just add up to MUCH extra time when we are in a hurry. How long do you think cleaning mud off hooves, coronets, sorting and fitting on 16 Old Macs would take? Then removing again when home? I can zip the hoof pick thru the 16 hoof bottoms fast, leave hoof wall dirty, get on the road pretty quick. I need to get the milage done, horse is clean under tack, no rub marks. Do the same hoof cleaning, when I return. I will have to dry any sweaty horses, chores in the bar. We all work together in the barn to get done, still have homework to do, regular living stuff. There is only so much time to play with horses. Shoes or barefoot, work better for my horses. I have never had a problem with losing shoes or having shoes make my horses sore with rubs, so I stick with what works for me.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LMH:
Pavement, shoes and traction??? I certainly must be missing something...actually I have never quite understand why people think a plain steel shoe provides traction.

I have watched the shod horses bust tail running down a hill and the barefoot ones keep on keeping on.

And on pavement-plus rain-slicker than owl doodoo...I would prefer barefoot for traction any day of the week.

And if they are wearing fast why not just use a hoof boot for training and let them otherwise stay barefoot?

_

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I don't wish to take the extra time, effort on my horse or horses. I am not into lots of extra fussing just to be fussing with the horse. I am usually getting out several horses, cleaning them to go. Boots would just add up to MUCH extra time when we are in a hurry. How long do you think cleaning mud off hooves, coronets, sorting and fitting on 16 Old Macs would take? Then removing again when home? I can zip the hoof pick thru the 16 hoof bottoms fast, leave hoof wall dirty, get on the road pretty quick. I _<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
No doubt about it, shoes are a convenience for the owner.

[jester1113]

OK...lighting's not so hot, but attached are pics of my gelding's tootsies. He's got a half wedge on his RF (again, both farrier and trainer noticed he had two different front feet right off, I STILL can't see it...) and he's barefoot in back.

Only connect...

[jester1113]

Front, side view

Only connect...

[jester1113]

Back, front view...

Only connect...

[jester1113]

Back, side view. I'll grab some of Freak Mare's feet tomorrow. She's the heeless wonder.

Only connect...

[slb]

Jester...thanks for posting the pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

The fronts are prime examples of what happens when wedges are applied incorrectly....the reason that heels become crushed, feet contracted, frogs prolapsed, and these horses are never sound without pads.

The heels are too high. The logic behind applying pads is to provide **temporary** comfort for the horse until it adjusts to whatever changes were made to the feet. For example, if the heels were underrun for a period of time, then the DDFT will become "extended" (actually the structures holding it) and possibly the extensor tendon may become "contracted in a like manner. The opposite is true for horses with high heels. The application of the wedge should include a correctly balanced trim...including correct height on heels....this can most often be confimed by making sure that the heel is back at the widest part of the frog). The wedge does not serve to produce or encourage more or less heel growth, it serves to provide support for structures that would otherwise be stressed during transformation. Once the goal is accomplished, the wegdges should be removed. During the transition/healing period, the wedges should be lowered as needed so that they do not apply undo forces on the heels.

If the wegdes remain, the heels will eventually crush and breakdown. With the heel so high, the frog, which should have ground contact, will attempt to reach the ground for support (if other support is not provided). Thus, prolapsing through the heel/shoe.

Contraction becomes inevitable because the integrety of the heels will be weakened. The digital cushion will deteriorate because the frog is not properly stimulated. The frog will begin to shrink inward (from the sides). The heels will begin to move inward because there are no "outward" forcus. As the horse is forced to walk on its toes (because of the wegdge and additionlly enhanced with the high heel) the heels are not weighted correctly, they will not expand and contract with each step as is indicated in optimal function, and the foot begins to contract.

The nearly perpendiular-to-the-ground hairline indicates that the heels are way too high. The hairline should form an angle to the ground that is similar to the one seen in the back feet. In short, wedges or no wedges, the feet still need to be correctly balanced and aligned...and I didn't even get into the alignment part. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[JB]

"The nearly perpendiular-to-the-ground hairline indicates" - surely you meant parallel to the ground http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

ditto to everything else slb said. Just say no to wedges! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[slb]

Did I say that....just goes to show you...can't believe everything you read on the net. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Yes, JB, thanks for the correction...must have had a real duh moment!

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Two Toofs]

There is a time and a place for properly applied wedges, but one should *never* be applied without some sort of sole support in place.

I also wanted to throw in another comment about certification. Just being "certified" doesn't mean a darn thing (as we all know) but you need to be aware of who has issued the certification. Apparently there are schools out there that issue a "journeyman" certificate after completing a six week course. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Which is a very far cry from the requirements of skill and experience needed for one to obtain even the basic farrier's certification from the AFA, which most farriers never even try for because its "too much trouble". I think I've only ever met one, out of dozens and dozens of farriers, that has completed the AFA journeyman certification.

For me, certification is a requirement, but not the only requirement, if you want to work for me on my horses. In and of itself does not guarantee that you will get excellent work, but it is a sign of an individual who is interested in continuing education and bettering his or her self in their chosen field. If one cannot even bother to meet the *basic* standards required for their field.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

Two Toofs
(formerly - but still - NDANO)

[jester1113]

Here's Freak Mare. I wasn't able to get any front shots, she was SURE the camera was going to eat her. You can clearly see her heels though...

Only connect...

[jester1113]

Back side view of Freak Mare (you can see where an abcess blew over the summer). Her left hind twists out significantly more than the right; that's also the leg w/ a year old low susp injury and confirmed ring bone.

Only connect...

[jester1113]

More front...let me know if uneven ground makes it difficult and I'll try and take some inside where it's level.

Only connect...

[LMH]

Hey-those show some things but good level shots would be oh so helpful and can provide a great education http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

If you don't mind http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[Posting Trot]

Jester--

Her toes (in the first picture, frontside) look way too long, and I don't think it's just the camera angle.

You could try posting also on the BB Farriers helping horseowners on the www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com) website. You'd get some interesting responses there too.

[jester1113]

Thanks all! I will try and get some level shots tomorrow night...and I'll check out that other BB too...

Only connect...

[LMH]

Just a quick impression from these pictures. The front toes are way too long-the horse has a broken back angle from the hoof to the pastern. There are also flares that must be addressed.

She also has very long low underrun heels that need to be brought back so she is properly balanced over the weight bearing part of her hoof.

It is hard to see the rears-but it LOOKS like her has heels that need to be dropped down not wedged up.

All feet all overall just too overgrown.

Will wait for the next set of pics http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

(edited because he is a SHE http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[This message was edited by LMH on Jan. 19, 2004 at 07:29 PM.]

[lilblackhorse]

I forgot to come back to this thread when I first read it--fascinating photos JB. I posted a thread one time about shoeing---the vicious circle of "therapeutic" shoeing.

Our barn's farrier is just such a fellow-all the horses in the barn (except those few who can see the light) look like your horse's feet before. I have spoken with MY farrier about him and his work before.

Some of the reasons are a) the owners don't know what a good foot looks like b) everyone else has wedges and pads and eggbars so they feel that they need to be part of the IN crowd
and C) they feel that if they are paying in the $150 -$200 range for a shoeing job, they must be getting a good job.

You would be disgusted by the lack of heels on all the barn horses. It is so gross-and then you get into the vicious circle of having no heel and having to pad them and support them. It just makes me sad and ill-very few of these horses DO anything for work. They plop around an indoor with excellent footing-most are never ridden outdoors even.

I think that owners need to educate themselves, talk to a trusted farrier and have the courage to both ask WHY and to change farriers if you are not getting the results you are paying for.

Just a little aside there--but the barn helper gal and I just cringe when we see all the horses with screwed up feet-terrible problems which will never get fixed, and the owners just keep writing this idiot checks every month.

JB-those are great pictures-some young gal asked for photos of long toes, and I had a helluva time finding photos---yours are perfect and really show it so nicely. I am glad you have a new regime and the horse is well. It can just get away from you even when you have the best of intentions and good knowledge too http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Elippses Users Clique........"I hate stall rest" and Grammar Nazi Cliques

"What the fuh?" Robby Johnson

[LMH]

Just remember these horses with long toes and low underrun heels are not suffering from "no heels." They actually have too MUCH heel-it has been left to grow long and forward. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[Capriole]

Not to hijack the thread, but: Cherry, if you were to recommend just one of these books to start with, which would it be? I know very little about trimming and shoeing. Thanks!

[jester1113]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> All feet all overall just too overgrown.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She was done December 30th. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

And you want to see flares? In the summer she has to be done every 5 weeks (we could do 4) or she gets really dished...

Only connect...

[LMH]

Book suggestions-

Horse Owners Guide to Natural Hoof Care by Jaime Jackson--you can purchase it at star-ridge.com

At that site you can also purchase Pete Ramey's new book-GREAT stuff.

Even if you don't think you want to try barefoot these books show BALANCED trims and how to deal with flares and underrun heels and all sorts of problems. There are alos pictures of NORMAL horse feet-something rarely seen anymore http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[jester1113]

OK, I just ordered $80 worth of books from Amazon...going to hold off for now on the Butler book since that's $80 by itself!

Only connect...

[slb]

There is also a great video at www.hopeforsoundness.com (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com) (the one on trimming). They also have a simple little book that explains the differences between what a foot should look like and what some problems might be. That is around $15 (New Hope for Soundness, Seen Through the Window of Wild Horse Hoof Patrerns). Their online trim tutorial is helpful also.

www.barfoothorses.com (http://www.barfoothorses.com) also has some great pics and info on balanced trimming.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Cherry]

Capriole--it depends on how much you want to spend... Healthy Hooves, Well-Shod, and Complete Horseshoeing Guide are under twenty dollars (you might be able to get a paperback copy of Maximum Hoof Power for that price too... Otherwise, the hard cover copy of Maximum Hoof Power runs thirty dollars, I believe... Dr. Butler's horseshoeing book is very expensive, around eighty dollars... This is the kind of book a farrier carries in his truck as a reference guide!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Dr. Butler (http://www.farrierfocus.com/doug_butler.html) has several horseshoeing books and videos out; to request a copy of his catalog of books and tapes you can call 1-800-728-3826.

I have his book Shoeing in Your Right Mind http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif that I got when I crashed his seminar in Lancaster, PA, several years ago, at his suggestion... It's a very interesting book, written to improve a farrier's efficiency in horseshoeing, but gets into X (medial/lateral), Y (hoof form), and Z (toe/heel) balances; hoof trimming and balance and shoe fitting and balance... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif Good pics and diagrams... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

"Everything looks good until you start to examine it!!!", uttered by me on more than one occasion

[This message was edited by Cherry on Jan. 20, 2004 at 06:18 PM.]

[jester1113]

More pics (on level ground)!

Low heels...

Only connect...

[jester1113]

Front, front on (these are again of my mare)

Only connect...

[jester1113]

Front feet, left side

Only connect...

[jester1113]

Back, from the right

Only connect...

[jester1113]

Back feet, front view. I have TONS of questions that I'll put together and post tomorrow when I need my daily goofing off at work time.

Capriole, I found a lot of Cherry's recommended books at Amazon, many for under $15...

Only connect...

[LMH]

Good job jester!

A few observations-it is NOT that the horse has NO heels-it is LONG underrun heels. You don't want a horse standing on talls heels.

That is what your horse has. His toes and heels have been allowed to run forward. Look at the side front views-see how he has a broken back angle? The angle from pastern to the end of his toe should be a straight line. He does not have a straight line but it is like a very small backwards "C"--very shallow "C" but there is a curve.

Then look especially at his left front-can you see the hoof wall flaring on the outside? It is the same idea as the toes but on the side of his hoof. On this left front it is the most obvious.

His shoe-ing is actually very typical of what you see out there. The flares cause stress to the whole hoof as it causing white line stretching-makes the hoof a weaker structure.

His heels need to be shortened-the length removed and the toes brought back and the side flares rasped off so his whole base or center of support is underneath him...

I want to go look again but am afraid I will lose THIS post so that's it for this one. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[LMH]

I actually have a question about the rears that hopefully others will address...to me the hairline, viewed from the side pushes up toward the heel-to me, this indicates an imbalance here as well-my first thought is the heels should come down at that area as well?

In other words, doesn't the elevated hairline indicate the hoof is sorta pushing back up at that point-I can't phrase this correctly but hopefully someone will get what I mean. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[LMH]

Next observation-there is also flaring on the rears-you can really see it on the front shot on that right rear.

The left rear looks like it might be inside high-but it might just be the angle of the photo....

I look forward to the comments from the more experienced on the BB http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[slb]

Good eye LMH http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Yes, the hairline is coming up as it goes toward the heels. This indicates that there is excess pressure from the ground in that area (hoof wall too long).

Jester, if you consider the length of the heel from the hairline to where it neets the ground (shoes), then take that distance and mark it perpendicular to the ground, you will see that her heels are too long, not short....they are just growing at an incorrect angle. Check out some of the markups in the giant hoof thread here in the reference post sections and you will see some there. Your horse will be hard to actually see this on because the whole hoof wall is so long and the heel area so pushed up at the hairline, that when I do the markup and turn the line (length of heel) it shows it to be a correct length, just wrong angle. But, if I drop the angle of the hairline to a more correct positioin, then it is evident the heels are too long.

Here also is a prime example of where "following" the book goes wrong. Most farriers are taught that if the angle on the toe and the heel are reasonably matched (within 5 or so degrees), that the hoof is correct. Well, these angles on your horse's feet are almost perfect matches. That is because the entire hoof is moved forward...not just underrun heels and too long toe, but the entire hoof wall is too long all around and located too far forward of the center fo the base of support.

LMH is correct...there is lots of minor dishing in the quarters and toe that incidate flares and long toe. This dishing is a result of the top of the hoof wall growing at a correct angle from the coronary band, and then at the ground surface, the pressure gets too much and the hoof wall starts to be pushed away from its growth direction along the ground. This stretches the white line, flares are created...even the long toe is simply a flare.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[jester1113]

Thanks slb and LMH! I need to print out your comments w/ the new photos I posted and go over them VERY closely.

I do have a bunch o'questions. And they're going to be pretty dumb.

First, what's a hairline? "Is the hairline of the hoof level?" Huh?

Then, I was looking at the pdf that someone posted on the first page and they had a pic of a horse w/ a 1" white line. Now (to me), that looks like what I think of as the hoof wall? Is it the same thing? Or is the white line the demarcation b/t the hoof wall and whatever's on the inside of it?

JB, you said pony JB's bars were up past the tip of his frog? Huh? Also, did your farrier show you how to frequently rasp his heels?

Mustang rolled...is that the same as squaring the toes or rocking the toes (where the toes seems to be a little squared off to some how affect the break over point)? Again, HUH?

Told you. Dumb. But I'm trying! And kicking myself for using the free super saver shipping on my books, I want them NOW! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Only connect...

[LMH]

Not dumb at all jester!

There is one site you should go to:

http://www.ironfreehoof.com It is a fabulous little site the explains in EASY terms the different parts of the hoof, shows a good balanced trim and has pictures. It shows overgrown bars and flares.

Then go to:

http://www.barefoothorse.com Read that site and go to the photo gallery.

It can explain things WAY easier than I can and has pictures and details.

TO answer a couple of your questions-the hairline is where his furry leg meets the top of his hoof. If you look at his side view rear pictures...look at the front of his back foot. Where his leg enters his hoof. Now follow this "hairline" all the way around his hoof to the rear where his heels are...if you were to draw this line, see how it dips up toward his heel? the line isn't "straight"---that is where we are talking about.

A don't understand the "one inch white line"-the white line should be very thin and tight with a good thicker wall to the outside of it.

The bars---for this question I think one of the sites I mentioned would be the easiest.

The bars are supposed to end no more than halfway down the length of the frog-truly a photo would help here. Sometimes the bars are left to over grow and this is NOT a good thing-it inhibits how the hoof is supposed to work.

I know JB's NEW trimmer showed her what to do if she didn't know already because she is also my trimmer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Mustang roll: Also has a GREAT explanation on the sites I gave you. It is NOT squaring the toes but more like rockering but not exactly...read the sites and then see if you still have questions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Did you get Pete Ramey's book? It is the esaiest to understand-I was just re-reading it again last night.

slb-thank you http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I gave it the good ole college try. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[jester1113]

Hairline - duh. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif Told you!

Here's what I ordered from Amazon (w/ prices for Capriole):
1 "Horse Owners Guide to Natural Hoof Care"
Jaime Jackson;Paperback; $20.97

1 "Making Natural Hoof Care Work for You"
Pete Ramey;Paperback; $18.87

1 "The Complete Horseshoeing Guide"
Robert F. Wiseman;Paperback; $13.97

1 "Well-Shod : A Horseshoeing Guide for Owners & Farriers"
Don Baskins;Paperback; $12.57

1 "Maximum Hoof Power"
Cherry Hill;Paperback; $13.97

I believe the wiseman book is being re-released in April, so I pre-ordered it...

The 1" white line pic was here:
http://bwfa.net/fnrc/hoofcare/heels.htm

They did say a normal white line should be appx 1/4"...

I printed out the Natural Balance Hoofcare tutorial from hopeforsoundness, trying to sneak in a visit to barefoothorse too.

I asked my trainer who he uses and it turns out he uses the same farrier as a local BNT/eventer...

Only connect...

[LMH]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif Oh my-yes that is a stretched white line-yikes. It is a picture of a foundered pony's hoof and wow that is one stretched white line.

Not good. Not a good white line at all.

Good book selection-of course my favs will be Jaime and Pete's books-Pete's is very reader friendly and Jaime's is more technical so you might want to start with Pete's.

Just so you know, Pete has trimmed my horses and in the books you will also see pictures of Cindy "Hawk" Sullivan-she trims my horses now. She and Pete are great friends and great people.

In Pete's book just WAIT til you see pics of the draft horse that is a cart horse BAREFOOT! He works all day long driving folks around. That horse is owned by Pete's wife. His feet are SO cool looking.

The two sites should keep you busy until your books arrive.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[Capriole]

Great -- thank you for all the book and website recommendations, everyone! I was actually less worried about the price than about buying a bunch of books I won't finish (err...done that before). I think I will start with the Ramey and Jackson books. Thanks again!

[LMH]

another teaser until your books come...go to this link:

http://tribeequus.com/wildfeet.html

Look at these gorgeous beautiful FUNCTIONAL feet.

My 3yo's feet look pretty darn close to these. His toe length is THREE INCHES-that is within wild horse range http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Bear in mind we did NOTHING to do this except balance his feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I will try get take pics of him and post them.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jester1113:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> All feet all overall just too overgrown.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

She was done December 30th. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
You think JB's feet were scary in these pictures? That was after 7 week, 2 weeks overdue, and they looked like they did with the first "certified" farrier right after he finished with him. How's that for scary?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>And you want to see flares? In the summer she has to be done every 5 weeks (we could do 4) or she gets really dished...
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
This is because her feet are unbalanced. You get into a never ending circle if you don't address the balance - out of whack causes the flares, the flares cause more out of whack. Rio has tended to get flares in the back, so I am to keep an eye on them and rasp them back if they start, but since switching farriers I haven't see any sign of any.

[Lookout]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by LMH:
My 3yo's feet look pretty darn close to these. His toe length is THREE INCHES-that is within wild horse range http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Bear in mind we did NOTHING to do this except balance his feet. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
QUOTE]
That's good to hear, as frequently the mustang trim will remove toe from the bottom (the sole) in order to achieve that 3" spec, and this is just where they need sole the most, underneath the coffin bone.

[LMH]

I can promise you Lookout no sole was removed to get here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Actually the only trim method I have seen that removes sole to force angles length or concavity is Strasser or Olivio.

Jaime Jackson and his wild horse trim NEVER advocate doing such a thing.

I just think it is SO interesting how the hoof changes when balanced properly. I was looking at a hoof chart I started when I started this leap into barefootism and Milo's toe WAS 3 3/4 inches in September.

Julian was 3 3/4 and is now 3 1/2 but his transition was muddled with the darn abscess.

Just so cool.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[slb]

QUOTE]
That's good to hear, as frequently the mustang trim will remove toe from the bottom (the sole) in order to achieve that 3" spec, and this is just where they need sole the most, underneath the coffin bone.[/QUOTE]

Lookout, where did you get this idea?

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Actually the only trim method I have seen that removes sole to force angles length or concavity is Strasser or Olivio.
Jaime Jackson and his wild horse trim NEVER advocate doing such a thing.
_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
So how does one get a toe to be exactly 3 inches?

[LMH]

Well I never advocated that a toe MUST be exactly 3 inches-I simply commented that one of mine has that toe length-I measured today and it is just under 3 1/4 inches to be completely accurate.

Don't know how it happened http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif-just gave him a balanced trim-making sure his hoof wall never grew too long and there it was-3 1/4 inch toe.

I have watched evertime he was trimmed and sole was never removed.

Sound over all terrain. Huh. Imagine.

You once again Lookout have avoided a question asked to you-how did you get the idea that Jackson pared sole to achieve a certain toe length?

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[slb]

Initally by backing it up...once the foot is correctly balanced and heels are back where they belong, the toe doesn't run forward. The white line gets tight and the toe stays where it belongs. There is never any need to remove hoof from the bottom to attain a shorter toe.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I can promise you Lookout no sole was removed to get here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Actually the only trim method I have seen that removes sole to force angles length or concavity is Strasser or Olivio.

Jaime Jackson and his wild horse trim NEVER advocate doing such a thing.

I just think it is SO interesting how the hoof changes when balanced properly. I was looking at a hoof chart I started when I started this leap into barefootism and Milo's toe WAS 3 3/4 inches in September.

Julian was 3 3/4 and is now 3 1/2 but his transition was muddled with the darn abscess.

Just so cool.

_When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress _

_ Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you have ever watched a farrier trim a foot, it is actually quite common to remove sole at the toe, for the application of the shoe, and farriers doing a pasture trim will routinely trim this way, there's nothing controversial or unusual about it.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
QUOTE]
That's good to hear, as frequently the mustang trim will remove toe from the bottom (the sole) in order to achieve that 3" spec, and this is just where they need sole the most, underneath the coffin bone.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout, where did you get this idea?

Proud member of the _* Hoof Fetish Clique *_[/QUOTE]

After I was unable to get any information about the mustang trim here (for example how it is adjusted for domestic horses since we all know domestic horses are very different than mustangs), doing some research and talking to someone who has spent a great deal of time doing this trim along with Cindy Sullivan. Lighten up LMH, I'm sorry I don't spend as much time on these boards as you do.

[Lookout]

Doesn't the mustang trim advocate a 3" toe?

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
If you have ever watched a farrier trim a foot, it is actually quite common to remove sole at the toe, for the application of the shoe, and farriers doing a pasture trim will routinely trim this way, there's nothing controversial or unusual about it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lookout, that may be done by some farriers, but it is not advocated by all. I have watched many farriers trim and never seen even one take toe off the bottom.

But, aside from that, Jackson's mustang trim has little to do with traditional farriery.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Doesn't the mustang trim advocate a 3" toe?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
There is a range of lenths that Jackson measured on the feral horses he studied. They are in the 3" range. However, he stresses that these are guides and that there is a range.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

I don't recall you asking that specific question...but then I sometimes have trouble trying to figure out what you are looking forin an answer http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif ...guess it is the way you word your questions.

If you got your information from the person I think you did, IMO, she lacks an understanding of the Mustang trim. If she was trimming with Hawk 3-4 years ago, then I am sure that the trim...like all the others has evolved since then. At that point, Jackson was a firm supporter of Strasser. So, either things have changed, or your trimmer/adivsor is mistaken in her recollection of the trim.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[Lookout]

It's the clearest information any one to date has been able to give me re the mustang trim.

Interesting. When Jackson was a supporter of Strasser, he was trimming sole at the toe, something Strasser would never, ever advocate. Someone (not sure who) is or was really confused.

Do you understand the question now? Care to answer it?

[slb]

Actually, you didn't ask a question...but I will attempt to address your thoughts.

I was reading/following Jackson at the time...at no time did he advocate trimming sole...not at the toe or anywhere else. His original book clearly pointed out that no sole was to be trimmed unless to exfoliate. I also spoke with him a few months later (after Strasser began holding clinics here) and he was very clear that he did not support any of the sole, frog, bar trimming or opening cuts that Strasser was presenting at the time. Shortly after that he made it clear that he no longer advocated Strasser's work.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[LMH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:

After I was unable to get any information about the mustang trim here (for example how it is adjusted for domestic horses since we all know domestic horses are very different than mustangs), doing some research and talking to someone who has spent a great deal of time doing this trim along with Cindy Sullivan. Lighten up LMH, I'm sorry I don't spend as much time on these boards as you do.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

A. Your last comment was once again typical of your responses and unnecessary.

Over several posts Lookout I have asked you what your background is, what your experience and training is and where you get your information. You never answer these questions.

I can't help but wonder why you invite controversy rather than giving to direct answers. It is almost like you want to bait an argument. I personally love to learn and hear different thoughts and perspectives. I don't have all the answers or even a small percentage of the answers. What I do have is sound horses that can travel on any terrain, have great traction, no chips or cracks. They are barefoot. So whatever is being done to my horses is good enough for me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

By your response did YOU spend time with Cindyu or did the person you spoke with spend time with Cindy?

Either way I can assure you Cindy does NOT advocate removing live sole to achieve anything. I have never seen her touch the sole at the toe unless of course it is a first trim after shoes are pulled and you have sole ready to come off...but even after I pulled my new mares shoes she left the sole completely there so the mare had some support while she was getting used to things.

I think trying to make blanket statements about she does this or that is quite misleading. Cindy reads the hoof and balances the hoof. Unless you have personally seen her work, I think it would be hard to comment.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
Actually, you didn't ask a question...but I will attempt to address your thoughts.

I was reading/following Jackson at the time...at no time did he advocate trimming sole...not at the toe or anywhere else. His original book clearly pointed out that no sole was to be trimmed unless to exfoliate. I also spoke with him a few months later (after Strasser began holding clinics here) and he was very clear that he did not support any of the sole, frog, bar trimming or opening cuts that Strasser was presenting at the time. Shortly after that he made it clear that he no longer advocated Strasser's work.

Proud member of the _* Hoof Fetish Clique *_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
SLB - "how does the mustang trim adjust the trim for domestic horses since domestic horses are different than mustangs???" THAT is a QUESTION. Is it suitably clear and stated as a question? Other than that, I am not interested in your secondhand musings of Strasser vs. Jackson, or anyone else.

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by slb:
Initally by backing it up...once the foot is correctly balanced and heels are back where they belong, the toe doesn't run forward. The white line gets tight and the toe stays where it belongs. There is never any need to remove hoof from the bottom to attain a shorter toe.

Proud member of the _* Hoof Fetish Clique *_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Is this what you do SLB? How long does it take you to achieve a 3" range toe doing this? What do you do when this doesn't work or does it always work for you?

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
I can promise you Lookout no sole was removed to get here http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif
Jaime Jackson and his wild horse trim NEVER advocate doing such a thing.
I just think it is SO interesting how the hoof changes when balanced properly.

_ Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
LMH how do you steepen a too shallow toe if not by shortening the toe? Do you wait for the heels to grow? If not either of these, what else do you do?
Don't you distinguish between removing "live" sole at the toe and, uh, non-live, sole at the toe? If so how do you tell the difference? Or are you saying you never remove any toe sole, (even if it's too steep) because it's always live sole there?

[LMH]

Lookout address your questions elsewhere-perhaps slb still will deal with you. Personally your debating is exhausting. I really could care less what you or anyone else does with his or her animal.

I have enjoyed the talks about feet with slb and others and found them educational. You however have turned into a thorn.

I have shared my experiences in case it would be interesting or helpful to someone else.

Today is lovely so I plan to go ride my barefoot horses-the one with the 3 1/4 inch toe in particular. The old man with the 4in toe will not be ridden today as he is retired-however were he not, I would also ride my barefoot, sound TB with the 4in toe with no intentions to make it a 3 inch toe. I would say however, should his toe ever shorten I would find that interesting as well.

Good day-I hope you are not this exhausting in person and perhaps you are indeed a pleasant person that just has trouble expressing herself on "paper."

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:
Either way I can assure you Cindy does NOT advocate removing live sole to achieve anything. I have never seen her touch the sole at the toe unless of course it is a first trim after shoes are pulled and you have sole ready to come off...but even after I pulled my new mares shoes she left the sole completely there so the mare had some support while she was getting used to things.
I think trying to make blanket statements about she does this or that is quite misleading. Cindy reads the hoof and balances the hoof. Unless you have personally seen her work, I think it would be hard to comment.
_<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Why would it need sole removed of course after a first trim and never again? What would be so different before/after? Going by how your 3 are trimmed, is characteristic of each and every trim this trimmer would perform?
Have you seen the pictures in Jackson's book where he does actually do this, or is no longer the case as well?

[Posting Trot]

I could be way off, and I know nothing more than I have read, but, I think that the biggest difference with the "mustang trim" is that it is a "trim." In other words, mustangs don't get trimmed, they wear their hooves down through use. (And mustangs really are just feral horses, not truly wild horses; i.e., they do not differ much--if at all--genetically speaking from the basic domestic horse).

The mustang trim is thus an attempt to mimic (through the trim) the balanced wear achieved by a reasonably well-nourished mustang.

My farrier doesn't do a mustang trim per se; but she's a big advocate of balancing the hoof, and of doing what's appropriate for the individual horse. My horse is barefoot over the winter and has shoes on during the rest of the year. The trim is fundamentally the same with or without shoes. The hoof is balanced and wears evenly when she goes without shoes. She doesn't take off sole (except to exfoliate dead sole), and she does rocker the toes.

[LMH]

For those that are interested, I have posted this site before...

if you go to http://www.ironfreehoof.com it gives a very good straightforward explanation of a "wild horse trim" showing the "mustang roll."

Now there may be something a little different from what some other trimmer would do but I find this to be a good reader friendly site.

I have spoken with Paige on the phone as well and she is very kind and helpful and more than willing to answer questions and lend support to those considering barefoot.

Just a little fyi.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Is this what you do SLB? How long does it take you to achieve a 3" range toe doing this? What do you do when this doesn't work or does it always work for you?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, Lookout, this is how my horses are trimmed. It works not only for mine, but for the hundreds of horses that my husband trims/has trimmed in the last 10 years...imagine, before "natural" or barefoot specialty trims were popular http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

I have already voiced my opinion on measurements. I do not know how long my horses toes are. They are short, but I have never measuured them, so I cannot say if they fall into the 3" guidelines....but my guess would be that they do.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
LMH how do you steepen a too shallow toe if not by shortening the toe? Do you wait for the heels to grow? If not either of these, what else do you do? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Lookout, I will speak to this as I think perhaps LMH can't answer as it requires an understanding of a Strasser trim. Since the question addresses a significant difference between Strasser and other trim methods, I think it an important point.

Strasser is the only one that has a problem with "steepening" toes. No other trim method addresses this. It is not an issue in other methods because the first objective in other trims is not to attain a 30 degree hairline. By trimming to attain this "carved in stone" angle, the toe is percieved to be too shallow. In all other trim methods, the depth of toe is not an issue because as the trim progresses, the white line tightens, the laminar connection becomes stronger, and the coffin bone rises in the hoof capsule...in a natural progression...thus it is never attempted to try and alter the depth of toe.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Don't you distinguish between removing "live" sole at the toe and, uh, non-live, sole at the toe? If so how do you tell the difference? Or are you saying you never remove any toe sole, (even if it's too steep) because it's always live sole there?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Yes, there is a distinction between "live" sole and sole that should be shed. The difference is one is chalky and often flaking or otherwise "self destructing" in an attempt to exfoliate. The other is shinny and "new" looking. If the sole doesn't exfoliate itself, then the trimmer would do so....but would otherwise not "trim" sole.

It is not always live sole at the toe...I just expained what happens if it is not. In general in all other "natural" trims, it is instructed that the toe callous be left fully intact and that no sole be removed (unless flaking off) in the toe area.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[JB]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
[Why would it need sole removed of course after a first trim and never again? What would be so different before/after? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I cannot speak for LMH's horses as I haven't seen them, but I can speak to my own. My TB who was shod his whole life, and trimmed poorly for at least 13 of those years, had a LOT of dead sole removed his first barefoot trim. When I asked (and yes, it is Cindy Sullivan) she said that many farriers, even those who don't hesitate to pare off exfoliating sole on barefoot horses, don't do that with the shod foot because there isn't really a "need" since the shoe is lifting the foot off the ground, thereby protecting the sole (or something to that extent, that is not a quote). JB had 3" wedge shoes behind, and between paring away so much dead sole and shortening his toes, Cindy was able to nearly keep his feet at the same angle. That was not her intent - keeping them at the same angle - but it worked out that way. The next trim she removed no sole. That is why shod horses can need some sole removed the first time but not after that.

[slb]

Lookout...I have a suggestion...since your questions are beyond the type of information that most of the COTH BBers are looking for, it would be better if you took your "technical" questions to the barefoot boards where there are lots of trimmers that practice all sorts of methods and can better answer your questions.

You may enjoy the new HoofScience Yahoo Group. It is not moderated and any and all hoof related questions are accepted there. That way, those less technical won't be confused or put off by the exchanges. BarefootHorses and BarefootHorseCare are others that you might get answers on.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
Why would it need sole removed of course after a first trim and never again? What would be so different before/after? Going by how your 3 are trimmed, is characteristic of each and every trim this trimmer would perform?
Have you seen the pictures in Jackson's book where he does actually do this, or is no longer the case as well?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can't answer the part about what Hawk would do, but I can explain why the sole would need attention when first barefoot.

In general, a sole is often retained when the horse is shod. Often the edges are where the attachment first loosens and therefore, when shod, the foot has a hard time exfoliating itself because the edges of the sole are protected. Some traditional farriers don't exfoliate as they feel no need to, do not understand/differentiate the live sole, and some fear paring too deep and making the horse ouchy. One I know has no problem ouching your horse and is hired to do so by Paso Fino showers....makes that Fino really WOW the crowd. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif However, Butler (the text used in most farrier schools) indicates that is should be done. Why it is not followed is a question for those farriers....perhaps ask at www.horseshoes.com (http://www.horseshoes.com).
Once the horse is exfoliated and barefoot, it will generally continue to exfoliate for obvious reasons. So, the answer to your question is that it depends on the horse, the amount of movement, and the terrain as to if they need to be exfoliated or not. Some horses continue to retain sole, others do not, some do on occassion. This is part of "reading" the foot as opposed to following strict guides.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[LMH]

thank you once again slb for taking the thoughts inside my head and putting fingers to keyboard to explain things in a succinct manner http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I think the bottom line is, for me at least, I have found a trimmer-two actually-that are very capable of reading a horse's foot and applying a balanced trim, thus allowing my horses to work at whatever level ask I, barefoot and sound.

Isn't that really what all this is about? I mean in the end I think the "methods" advocated by Jackson and Gene at least are good models-in order to teach anyone anything you need a model. Then you need someone well educated with enough LIVE experience to deviate from this desired model, if needed, in order to keep a horse comfortable. In a perfect hoof, maybe you want a certain breakover or angle or length-it is something you sort of put in the back of your mind as an image to shoot for---then you modify this "model" for each individual horse-that is where the live experience comes from. You have to take into account the horses limbs and history of shoeing as well as other considerations.

This is what impresses me most about the trimmers I have met that have been trained by Jackson-they have a model but don't slice and dice to duplicate it. I can't speak for anyone trained to apply natural balance methods-but reading the posts by slb-and knowing that her husband is trained to apply natural balance methods, I am sure that is true for him as well.

As slb has mentioned on several occasions there is nothing new about any of this-it is just when shoeing and trimming goes in so many different directions, the "natural" or barefoot methods are called these names as a method of identification. They could very easily be called balanced trimming or old school trimming or something like that-but you need to call it SOMETHING so you can refer to it.

I have just reread the natural balance tutorial and sure there is a different way of explaining things than from Jackson, for example...but I do believe (and correct me if i am wrong) that both of these methods are based on reading a hoof, addressing flares, and balancing a hoof to obtain a healthy tight white line-from there you could say there are deviations, but the core is pretty similar.

Even Jackson trimmers will tell you that you can't use a blanket concept for the bars, for example. Different horses will perform better or worse with more or less bar-again you read the foot-try something and see how it works out. You just have to be good enough to know where you mistake might have been on that horse and correct it next time.

Now add Strasser in the mix and you get a whole new animal. Therefore it is confusing and difficult to refer to "barefoot" trims as one lump category.

Just a thought.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[LMH]

I would also like to add I think it is a real shame to have these debates online-several posters are looking for knowledge,many have posted pictures and come with concern about his or her horse...the best thing any of us can do is offer our experiences in hopes of helping someone or leading them to sites or books so they can educate themselves.

To debate back and forth doesn't add anything positive-it just confuses everyone and will perhaps turn someone off to something that could have been helpful to her horse.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[jester1113]

That's allright, I'm staying out of it -- you can always learn something from everyone. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

But two of my books came!!!!! The Ramey and Jackson books! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Only connect...

[LMH]

Oh good jester! Please let me know what you think http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[jester1113]

THANKS! Can you ask Cindy if she knows/can recommend anyone up here (metro DC)? I sent JB a PT, but she's probably behind after her trip to Leesburg...

Only connect...

[LMH]

I have sent an email and will post a name and number as soon as I hear back from her.

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

Let's put the FUN back in dysFUNctional!

[JB]

Ooo, sorry Jester, forgot to tell you I sent Cindy an e-mail about you! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif

[jester1113]

S'allright JB, I figured you hand your hands full now that you can work with Rio again!


I started on Ramey's book. And I have a stomach ache at how I've been SUCH A BAD MOM for the past 3.5 years. I swear I'm about to take a month off of work and head down to GA for some hands-on learning. Grrrr.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_mad.gif

Only connect...

[slb]

Jester....don't knock yourself out with guilt http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

We are taught to trust the wellbeing of ourselves and our animals to professionals...IMO, in all cases, there are far too many that can recite books, but simply can't apply. We are simply doing what society dictates....no one's fault. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

You have taken the first steps to help your horse...that is what matters. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[jester1113]

It's nice to be motivated. I'm having a hard time NOT reading this material while at work.

The barefoot thing just make soooooo much sense to me. Of course, my friend (Black Dog) pointed out "Well, what about when you take Ro prelim and need studs?" Hadn't thought about that...

Only connect...

[slb]

There is no harm in shoeing on a need basis. You just need a good farrier that can apply. Many farriers are willing to work for you part time. As long as they understand upfront what you are doing. My husband has a few clients that take their horses to their trainer's in the summer and have them shod by the barn farrier. Then they bring them home and barefoot them for the winter...the use my husband for trimming. The only thing that makes him upset is that he spends all winter balancing the feet only to have them go off to the "not so good" farrier to be unbalanced again.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *

[LMH]

jester i want to add as well-DON'T beat yourself up for relying on someone who was supposed to be doing the best for your horse! The good news is you saw a problem and took the steps to educate yourself to remedy the problem.

When I started considering barefoot I searched all over for barefoot show horses, hunters, etc and they are out there. I will try to find the sites that told the stories on some or start searching yourself.

I made tons of calls and spoke to barefoot only facilities, all kinds of trimmers got names of clients-there was probably a network among barefooters yelling "warning warning newbie on the search for info!" http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Enjoy the education http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[jester1113]

Now if only someone can tell me how to get this &@^# dent out of my thigh, I'll be set. Ironically, it was caused more than two years ago by an evil barefoot pony (was that redundant?).

Only connect...

[Lookout]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jester1113:
It's nice to be motivated. I'm having a hard time NOT reading this material while at work.

The barefoot thing just make soooooo much sense to me. Of course, my friend (Black Dog) pointed out "Well, what about when you take Ro prelim and need studs?" Hadn't thought about that...

_Only connect..._
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

If you don't want to go back to shoeing, you'll have to find a barefoot trim and trimmer that can handle that. There ARE barefoot horses out there competing at Prelim which you can emulate.

[Lookout]

slb, the toe angle question had nothing to do with Strasser. The mustang trim has a few guidelines - toe length as well as angles, and sole at the toe must be removed in order to achieve it.

[LMH]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
slb, the toe angle question had nothing to do with Strasser. The mustang trim has a few guidelines - toe length as well as angles, and sole at the toe must be removed in order to achieve it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout WHERE do you get this information? There is NO established toe length OR angle. There are, based on Jackson's studies, percentages where most horses fall but NO ideal.

Back to removing sole again? Live sole?

Truly WHERE do you get this? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

When you find yourself on the edge of a cliff, a step backward is progress

[slb]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Lookout:
slb, the toe angle question had nothing to do with Strasser. The mustang trim has a few guidelines - toe length as well as angles, and sole at the toe must be removed in order to achieve it.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Lookout...your question is grounded in Strasser ideaology. As I fully explained (redundently I think)....there is no consideration of depth of toe except in a Strasser trim. Therefore, your question is based on what a Strasser trimmer must consider during a trim...not what a Jackson trimmer (or any other for that matter) considers.

I don't know where you get this trimming from the bottom to achieve a certain toe angle in a Jackson trim. Do you have a specific page/pic in his guides that address this? If not, then you are imparting second hand knowledge that is incorrect.

Proud member of the * Hoof Fetish Clique *