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View Full Version : When is it OK to question a trainer or Pro rider and how to go about it...Spin Off



findeight
Nov. 25, 2011, 01:11 PM
Now that the wreckage from the trainwreck has been cleared, can we discuss this? I think it is a legit issue and see it come up on here often.

IMO, there needs to be open communication between trainer/rider and client. Each side needs to take the time and effort to be sure they are both on the same page.

If the horse is having issues (or just temporarily being a jerk), the trainer/rider needs to honestly advise the owner, share how they want to proceed and the owner needs to not take the fact there are issues personally.

The rider/trainer should also not take it personally if the client wants to question a decision PRIVATELY in a civil (and brief) fashion.

Just seems that even a few seconds of two way communication would avoid an awful lot of angst in the trainer/rider/client relationship. Might have helped in that other recent situation.

In my own case, it has always been a big part of selecting a trainer. I trust them to manage and guide the horse's career and do as they see appropriate BUT I want to be in the loop, all they have to do is tell me what they want to do or are doing. I am signing the checks for all of it. And I almost never disagree with their decisions, I just want to know.

I actually had one pretty good trainer I was considering tell me "I am the dicatator and you must never question my decisions for your horse or don't come here". I didn't.

I used a few different Pro riders and they always came out of the schooling ring and either said "s/he feels good to go" or "s/he needs a reminder and I need to school it out in this class". I never said no. But had they not shared the plan and just gone in and added or maybe deliberately skipped the last line or jumped a 9th fence to get them to quit anticipating/corner cutting/rushing the last line? I would have been miffed...not because of the needed school. Because they did not think I needed to know or couldn't be bothered.

I once had a Pro go off course in a Hunter class...I was not pleased but they came out and apologized profusely while praising the horse's effort before they screwed up. No harm, no foul. Just don't make a habit of it.;)

IMO there is no Pro so big that they cannot take 30 seconds to speak with their owner before and after a round...and there is no reason for any owner to act like a bigger jerk then their horse.

Care to share your opinions?

War Admiral
Nov. 25, 2011, 01:26 PM
Just seems that even a few seconds of two way communication would avoid an awful lot of angst in the trainer/rider/client relationship.

Agree completely. And now that I no longer ride, I'm finding it's REALLY difficult to find trainers who will communicate with me exactly what's going on with my horse. I don't mean I need a play-by-play of Precious Poopsie's every minute in the stall, but if I only ever get to see the horse work at the shows, and notice his performance is deteriorating, I am DAMN sure entitled to ask why and find out what the work regime has been!

doublesstable
Nov. 25, 2011, 02:10 PM
I was glad to read this thread because it made me think of what I have been through over so many years of riding and the trainers I have ridden with.

I look at it like a marriage. You date sometimes to find what works for you and your horses. The breakups should be done in a postive way. Often we out grow trainers or just don't see things the same way. Sometimes we stay longer than we should because of fear of hurting them. I have ridden with some wonderful people but the training was not improving my riding or my horses.

I know it can be hard to find that fit due to location etc. but really worth it when you find someone you click with.

I cannot really afford the trainers I like riding with so I have less riding time with them but at least it is quality time when I do get to ride with them.

What I do like about them is they are professional, have a well run program, they care about their clients and horses. They have no problem talking with you about any questions you have....

One time when one of the trainers was ridng one of my green horses my horses acted up the trainer did what he needed to do.. then he promptly came to me as I was sitting on the rail to talk to me about it... I thought that was so amazing.

They want their clients to understand each horse is different and to help the rider understand what needs to be done and why.

KitKat987
Nov. 25, 2011, 02:48 PM
I question my trainer all the time. Probably enough to be annoying, but I am a skeptic and I need to understand the reasoning behind what I'm doing, with my horses or otherwise. She understands that and we sometimes have debates if we don't agree.

I hate the type of trainer where it is their way or the highway. I'm a big girl, I can participate in decisions that affect me!

Ammy Owner
Nov. 25, 2011, 03:55 PM
I think the trainer has a duty to explain to the paying client what is going on with the horse. If I am paying for a rated division I expect my pro to go in the ring and do the best they can with the horse they are sitting on. And if the trainer feels the horse needs further schooling (after the warmup jumps or after the warmup trip) I feel they should relay those thoughts and we can come to a group decision on where to go from there.

To put it into another scenario, I would be ticked if my mechanic did something to my car without running it past me first and if they can't get my input because it is something urgent I expect them to fix it as best they can without breaking my bank and then discuss with me how we should proceed; "Hey Mrs.Doe I know we were doing a routine oil change but your car has a leak. I temporarily patched the hole but I believe you need a new part. Would you like me to order this part for you?"

I use the trainers I do because I trust them and they do a good job, and frankly they know more than I do. Just like my plumber, mechanic, and stock broker know more about their fields than I do. But at the end of the day I am paying them for a service and I do expect a little feedback.

Tex Mex
Nov. 25, 2011, 04:40 PM
Findeight I just wanted to say that I love this thread and your thoughtful post. The comments in the thread from earlier this week were ridiculous in my opinion, the attitude of "this is a famous rider so stfu" is insane. I think if you're going to blow a class in order to school an issue, it absolutely needs to be discussed with the owner in advance. This, IMO, is even MORE the case when you are catch riding and not on a horse in yor training program. If you don't like the horse then don't accept the ride next time. The owner should always have the right to say what they want. If the rider doesn't like it, they can pass on that horse.

Harold
Nov. 25, 2011, 07:12 PM
Findeight I just wanted to say that I love this thread and your thoughtful post. The comments in the thread from earlier this week were ridiculous in my opinion, the attitude of "this is a famous rider so stfu" is insane. I think if you're going to blow a class in order to school an issue, it absolutely needs to be discussed with the owner in advance. This, IMO, is even MORE the case when you are catch riding and not on a horse in yor training program. If you don't like the horse then don't accept the ride next time. The owner should always have the right to say what they want. If the rider doesn't like it, they can pass on that horse.

You need to gain a clue. That last trainwreck's OP completely fabricated a story leaving out important details so that lots of internet strangers (you) would tell her how right she was and give her lots of hugs and support. OP's horse is a stopping pig and had already stopped TWICE in the show ring. Dirty. And plenty of people were there to see it and then hear the OP complain about the rider to several other professionals (who all think she's crazy, frankly). She was waaaaay lucky to have the rider she had who, frankly, did an incredible job with the horse that she was given that day. The one with the dirty stop, not that that information was given in the original post . Again, ask all the pros who were there watching. OP's younger horse has a lovely habit of rearing and spinning at the gate - can't wait to hear which rider's fault that is next time they need to get it going forward and she posts how some rider booted/smacked the horse to get it into the ring and it got really nervous and ran down the lines.

I just want to hear who's telling people to blindly follow trainers and riders. Who ever would say that? I find it completely rude and thoughtless that the person who was complaining (and give up the bs of having it just be a question) completely didn't mention anything regarding how bad the horse was that day...it would almost be laughable if it wasn't so rude! That rider has done terrific things with that horse, it's not like they had no history. The great show record that the OP boasted over was created by this rider. And anybody who knows this rider knows that she is a terrific communicator.

olivertwist96
Nov. 25, 2011, 07:30 PM
You need to gain a clue. That last trainwreck's OP completely fabricated a story leaving out important details so that lots of internet strangers (you) would tell her how right she was and give her lots of hugs and support.

Pulling out the big bag of popcorn!

:eek:

nycjumper
Nov. 25, 2011, 07:57 PM
I think a one-on-one with your trainer or the pro riding your horse at the show is always appropriate. I don't think anyone would say otherwise. I assume the pros are making the right decision (and I don't know any pro who would deliberately turn a class into a schooling session unless it was absolutely warranted). But of course I ask questions about how or why something is done. I don't expect a trainer to tell me everything before the class - how could they? The horse that walks into the ring is very often not the horse that was in the schooling ring.

But yes, afterward, (as in the case in the original thread), I would have asked trainer why they did the add. And it seemed like a reasonable explanation was given. If I didn't understand the explanation, the discussion would go on. And if I had questions about said explanation, I would probably ask my friends or other pros privately.

What I don't think is appropriate is an owner coming on here and badmouthing a rider or trainer without a full version of the story being told. And it REALLY wasn't hard to figure out who the OP in the thread was talking about since she had previously been raving about said rider & it takes all of 2 seconds to figure it out. And yeah - that's VERY uncool.

Have an issue with your trainer/rider? Deal with it privately like an adult. Airing dirty laundry on a forum, esp with it seems not *all* the facts were presented ;) - that's childish and more importantly, bad business.

doublesstable
Nov. 25, 2011, 07:57 PM
You need to gain a clue. That last trainwreck's OP completely fabricated a story leaving out important details so that lots of internet strangers (you) would tell her how right she was and give her lots of hugs and support. OP's horse is a stopping pig and had already stopped TWICE in the show ring. Dirty. And plenty of people were there to see it and then hear the OP complain about the rider to several other professionals (who all think she's crazy, frankly). She was waaaaay lucky to have the rider she had who, frankly, did an incredible job with the horse that she was given that day. The one with the dirty stop, not that that information was given in the original post . Again, ask all the pros who were there watching. OP's younger horse has a lovely habit of rearing and spinning at the gate - can't wait to hear which rider's fault that is next time they need to get it going forward and she posts how some rider booted/smacked the horse to get it into the ring and it got really nervous and ran down the lines.

I just want to hear who's telling people to blindly follow trainers and riders. Who ever would say that? I find it completely rude and thoughtless that the person who was complaining (and give up the bs of having it just be a question) completely didn't mention anything regarding how bad the horse was that day...it would almost be laughable if it wasn't so rude! That rider has done terrific things with that horse, it's not like they had no history. The great show record that the OP boasted over was created by this rider. And anybody who knows this rider knows that she is a terrific communicator.


You should express such "personal" statements as you have above in a PM. Because of your posts, regardless if I agree with you or not; caused the last thread to be closed by the moderator!

nycjumper
Nov. 25, 2011, 08:03 PM
One last thought - I would also say that there is questioning your trainer in the case of wanting to learn and having those discussions at the appropriate time and questioning your trainer with the implication that he or she didn't do things the right way. And if it's the latter, and if it happens regularly, you (generic you) should either take over the ride yourself if you know so much or find another trainer where that doesn't happen.

Because there is nothing more annoying than a client that second guesses his or her trainer every minute. Clients pay pros for a reason - we (clients) need to take a step back and let them do their job.

Harold
Nov. 25, 2011, 08:07 PM
I swear the mod said we could discuss it elsewhere after that thread was locked...:lol::lol::lol:

Look, I really couldn't care less about the OP but it I found it so disrespectful to come on here and lie about the situation, it bugged me. We are lucky that some top riders are willing to meet people at shows and ride for them without requiring them to be in their programs - so lets reward them by backhandandly bashing them on the interwebs when our horses don't do well at one horseshow. I think the topic is a fine one to discuss but TexMex brought up the last thread and it's just so unfair to the rider. Anyway, I've said my piece and what I know about the situation. Just felt bad for the rider.

doublesstable
Nov. 25, 2011, 08:08 PM
I think a one-on-one with your trainer or the pro riding your horse at the show is always appropriate. I don't think anyone would say otherwise.

:lol: ^

I know trainers you not dare question.... their way or the highway...

xxreddxheaddxx
Nov. 25, 2011, 08:16 PM
I agree with you. As an owner I like to be involved with my horse, especially since I do a lot of the riding on him. My trainers are excellent with keeping me in the loop after the pro rides for me and tells me what they worked on, etc. Aslo, I completely trust my trainer's decisions and plans for my horse and I. Now I'm not saying that there isn't a place for trainers who don't share the info... many clients today just want to ride and don't really care about all the details, as long as the horse is there and ready to be ridden or shown for them they are fine, and I think "no questions asked" trainers are perfect for that.

Hilltopfarmva
Nov. 25, 2011, 08:39 PM
My trainer whom I've been riding with for just over a year is wonderful about discussing the horses. If I want him to show one of my homebred's I will lesson on that horse, then take it to the show for a ticketed schooling with my trainer and then he will decide at that point if he wants to show it or not. This is my first time doing this with another pro as I usually do it myself. However, since I am not as good of a rider as my trainer I feel he will do a much better job at an A show and these horses are for sale.
As a trainer myself, I do consult with my clients regularly since most are out of state. I let them know how training is going, how each show was, what needs to be worked on, what issues, etc. I will discuss when I think a vet should be consulted, chiropractor, etc. I do that with the show horses as well as the race horses. I like for the client to be included as much as they want to be since they are paying the bills.

Alter Not Do This
Nov. 25, 2011, 08:54 PM
As harold said, it's not easy to find a good pro to do catch rides on a horse from people that do their own training. Maybe the first step is the owner/trainer knows what they are and are not capable of doing at home. Sounds simple, but some people have delusions of grandeur and some people may not be all that and a bag of chips, but they know something and they know when they are in over their head and get help. And then some people read the web.

knowing your limits is a big part of that formula. Being upfront with the rider about where the horse is. But both of these require real, hands on experience. Depth of experience. Web readers need not apply. If the results make you go to the web for an answer, there's your sign. As for the pro, I bet reading half the story on the web in attempt to get attention is also a sign.

TatteredDaydreamer
Nov. 25, 2011, 09:02 PM
So where can I find this trainwreck? Sounds very interesting.
;)

stolen virtue
Nov. 25, 2011, 09:51 PM
Wow, there is a lot in this thread. I was going to speak to a situation I saw a few years back.

A trainer that I know well, had a great round with a horse however, she ended up schooling the horse-forcing the horse to add a stride when he became agitated and wanted to jump fast and flat. I thought that was the right thing to do -as a trainer-but she could have won the class had she let him go fast, and flat.

Just a thought.

vxf111
Nov. 25, 2011, 11:27 PM
Y'all, THIS thread is a spinoff MINUS all the drama and personal stuff... let's not dredge it over here?!

To answer the question, I think there needs to be a general mutual understanding about how the trainer is to handle unexpected show ring situations. I, for one, would rather get the schooling DONE and fix the problem-- even if it means flushing away the show fees. I can completely understand if someone else feels differently and would rather scratch and fix things at home. But what's important is that the trainer/client are generally on the same page.

In terms of whether the trainer should have to run the plan by the client pre-round, I don't know how realistic that is. But the trainer should be able to somewhat contemporaneously explain the thought process post-show. If the trainer goofs, truly goofs, she should own up to it. No one's perfect and I think a client who expects perfection is a bit unrealistic. But repeated errors or a real difference of opinion as to how to handle things, I can understand parting ways over that.

Tex Mex
Nov. 25, 2011, 11:59 PM
Ok, woa a little defensive. I don't know the last poster or rider or horse. I'm just saying (in respomse to THIS thread) that yea, a trainer and owner should discuss these things in advance and agree to the decision. And if the trainer/rider doesn't like it they should not accept the ride. I would expect that a catch rider, no matter how famous, would discuss these decisions with me if I were the owner.

Prime Time Rider
Nov. 26, 2011, 12:47 AM
One last thought - I would also say that there is questioning your trainer in the case of wanting to learn and having those discussions at the appropriate time and questioning your trainer with the implication that he or she didn't do things the right way. And if it's the latter, and if it happens regularly, you (generic you) should either take over the ride yourself if you know so much or find another trainer where that doesn't happen.

Because there is nothing more annoying than a client that second guesses his or her trainer every minute. Clients pay pros for a reason - we (clients) need to take a step back and let them do their job.

I once had a "trainer" use illegal tack in a hunter schooling round and consequently the round wasn't judged. The clueless "trainer" didn't realize that you couldn't use that tack in the hunter ring. When I asked him to please remove the illegal tack from my horse before showing it in the next class he refused and pulled the "I'm the trainer and so you shouldn't question my judgement" card. He proceeded to show my horse in the illegal tack and again the judge refused to judge the round. I finally told the trainer that unless he removed the illegal tack from my horse that I was going to scratch the horse from the remainder of the classes since I wasn't about to pay for rounds that couldn't be judged. He threw a hissy fit and I found a new trainer the next week.

MyssMyst
Nov. 26, 2011, 02:01 AM
OP's horse is a stopping pig and had already stopped TWICE in the show ring. Dirty.

Please understand that I'm asking a question for my own understanding (not trying to bash anyone). I don't know jack sh!t about hunters and how they are judged. Isn't stopping a more serious fault than leaving out a stride? In the case of riding a stopper, wouldn't leaving out a stride to get more "go" be a smart thing? Take the for-sure smaller penalty and have a chance of pinning if another horse/rider screw up over taking the possibility of a fault that makes it absolutely impossible to be in the ribbons?

Back to the main topic. I expect communication from any trainer I work with. My job, if I use a catch rider, is to give them the best horse possible to ride. To reach that goal, I'd ask that they tell me what they need from my horse next time to make their job easier. If I blow the prep, it's not the rider's fault. No matter what happens in the ring, it is ultimately my fault. It is my job to research which trainer and/or rider I use, prepare my horse, and address any issues. If something goes wrong in the arena, 100% of the time it can be traced to a decision *I* made. My horse blows up at flowers? I didn't prepare them well enough. Rider fails to communicate? I picked the wrong rider.

Granted, I would expect that if my horse had an issue at the start of the day that the rider/trainer would take a moment to say, "Hey, this happened in the warm-up and here's how I chose to handle it. We need to talk about what you want if this happens in the ring. Here are my options, here are the pro's and cons of each, here is my recommendation." If it happens in the show ring, I want them to make the call they feel best with. There's a reason they're on my horse, and unless there's a loss of temper/unsafe decision, I'm good with them making the call. If I wanted full control over the call, I should have been riding.

Trixie
Nov. 26, 2011, 09:53 AM
Please understand that I'm asking a question for my own understanding (not trying to bash anyone). I don't know jack sh!t about hunters and how they are judged. Isn't stopping a more serious fault than leaving out a stride?

Exactly. The stop has already blown the round, therefore any schooling that happens afterward is just making the most of ring time. You've already lost, so what difference does it make?

enjoytheride
Nov. 26, 2011, 09:59 AM
I once had a "trainer" use illegal tack in a hunter schooling round and consequently the round wasn't judged. The clueless "trainer" didn't realize that you couldn't use that tack in the hunter ring. When I asked him to please remove the illegal tack from my horse before showing it in the next class he refused and pulled the "I'm the trainer and so you shouldn't question my judgement" card. He proceeded to show my horse in the illegal tack and again the judge refused to judge the round. I finally told the trainer that unless he removed the illegal tack from my horse that I was going to scratch the horse from the remainder of the classes since I wasn't about to pay for rounds that couldn't be judged. He threw a hissy fit and I found a new trainer the next week.

There is no such thing as illegal tack in hunters, although there is unconventional tack so I do not understand what you mean or how a judge would have refused to judge the round.

meupatdoes
Nov. 26, 2011, 10:19 AM
The number one place to question a pro is if they are bullying the horse or trying to ride it despite the fact that it isn't sound that day.

I have pulled my own horse from a trainer because he bullied him. The one time I outright questioned a trainer was when he was giving my horse the what for and I didn't understand what he wanted. So I asked his wife, who was watching as well, "What is he trying to get him TO DO?"
I left shortly thereafter.

At this point I do all of my own piloting on my own horses so it is very rare for me to question a trainer. I take lessons from them because the advice they give me makes sense with what I am feeling under my butt and the horse goes better when I implement their instructions. It is instant bio feedback.
(Interestingly, when I took lessons from the above bully, his feedback didn't make any sense. It didn't "match" what I felt underneath me and following his advice did not improve the horse.)

If the horse is being treated fairly and progressing steadily (maybe slowly, maybe not in a totally linear way, but still overall getting better) then imo the training program is working. I don't sweat the small stuff.
If one day the horse is bad, it's ok. It will be better again in four rides.
If one day the horse has a bad trip, it's ok. It can try again the next show.

This is how I approach training my own horses, and I rarely get upset with small setbacks along the way. If my horse explodes and bucks me off after a jump one day (it has happened!), I don't get upset, I just get back on and try again. The time to get upset is when he keeps doing it over and over and you can't make one iota of improvement about it. Even a little improvement I will take ("Well, today he still balked, but was less determined about it than last time" is ok. "Today he balked exactly the same way and duration as last ride" is not).

Now that I have trained several horses of my own and several horses that my trainers through the years have had me ride, I am now training horses for other people as well. I can not always make a horse go perfectly in T-2 seconds, but I CAN get a horse to improve, if only a little, by the end of each ride and I CAN get the horse to develop positively over the course of a week and a month.
Sometimes people ask questions like, "Why is he fussing with the bit" and the honest answer is, "Because I am not working on that yet, there are other priorities at the moment."

Sometimes the horse does something flat out BAD and the best answer I have is, "Don't worry, if we just keep trying it will be better, I promise." You can not train a horse without challenging him a little and sometimes a little challenge makes things worse before they get better. You can not train a horse and have it NEVER have a set back, and you can't train a horse without EVER having to ride through undesirbable behavior and come out on the other side.

All of this by way of answer to the OP:
IMO, the time to question a trainer is when the overall program is abusive or unfair to the horse, and/or when you have been trying the same stuff for months with no improvement in sight. If the horse is perfectly happy but still going around W/T several months later, or still refuses to trailer load several sessions later, or is still stopping at jumps etc, that is questionable because the trainer may be being very nice to it but not making one iota of progress for the money you're spending.

It is NOT time to question a trainer when the horse is still going well and improving overall, when a perfectly normal training "set back" has occurred and is being/has been addressed, or when you have failed to see tremendous results ...in a week.

To me, "Why did you mercilessly beat the $#!t out of my horse because he stopped at one jump??! Why didn't you just quietly represent and try again?" falls into the first category.

"Why did you leave out a stride in a line in a manner that was so smooth I didn't even notice until other trainers mentioned it?" falls into the second.


If people are going to question category one situations, they are being good stewards for their horses.
If they are going to question category two situations all the time, they need to start riding their own horses if they know so much. And CERTAINLY not drag a trainer over the coals "faux innocently" on a public message board about it.

findeight
Nov. 26, 2011, 11:39 AM
You need to gain a clue...


I just respond based on what posters ask-I not only don't know who she is, I don't give a rats as*. But I do know that rider and cannot imagine she needs to work so bad she'd take a POS pig with a whack job owner on.

But thanks for being rude. I was almost thinking we could have a civil discussion about something that comes up on here all the time without the name calling. Silly of me.

BeeHoney
Nov. 26, 2011, 11:39 AM
I didn't follow the thread referred to in this one, but I think owners absolutely have the right to discuss the service they are paying for. Personally, I can't think of too many people I'd hire to do anything if part of the deal was that we couldn't discuss the job at hand. I'm not a big fan of trainers who ask their clients to check their brains at the barn door. If I pay the bills, I have a right to ask for information about what I'm paying for.

I think discussion is very important in the scenario of horse training, because most of us aren't just handing over the reins of horses that are going to be ridden and shown by trainers for the rest of their lives. Most people want the training to progress to something--generally them being able to ride and show the horse successfully. So it is important for the owner to understand the training plan and especially anything unusual that is going on.

I think that especially when roughness or punishment is being used it is important for the trainer to be able to discuss the situation. Punishment might be absolutely necessary and important to stop a bad or dangerous habit, or it might ruin a horse. Also, if something happens in the show ring where I've shelled out money for a horse to show, I would expect to be briefed on anything unusual that happens in the ring. But--probably not right at the out gate in front of other people.

Remember, trainers are human. They aren't omniscient, nor do they generally have the ability to see into the future. Show ring decisions often have to be made in a split second, and can easily be second guessed later. I don't expect perfection. I want to see overall improvement and understand the methods and the process.

I do agree that discussions are best done in private and respectful manner. If you don't trust and respect the person you've hired, find someone better. (The scenario of dangerous or abusive riding would be an exception, it's okay to step in and put a stop to that right away.)

Losgelassenheit
Nov. 26, 2011, 11:45 AM
They want their clients to understand each horse is different and to help the rider understand what needs to be done and why.

This. :yes: That's exactly how it should be. Should being the magic word of course.

IMO, it is ALWAYS ok to question a trainer or (*gasp*) pro rider so long as it's done in an adult-like fashion. If they have a problem with it, they need to get off their high horse (literally), and remember what their purpose really is when it's all said & done. As someone else mentioned, isn't communication part of the job? If someone's paying me to train them or their horse, it only makes sense (at least to me) that I'd be informing them of our progress, strengths, weaknesses, goals, etc.

It's sad that there's so much of this fear factor nowadays, and not just with owners but with young students as well. I had a 16 y/o girl riding with me a while back.. absolutely PHENOMENAL rider who just needed the opportunity to have some good horses under her. I told her like I tell everyone from the get-go (paying or not), I welcome questions at any time. Ok. But every now & then, usually during the harder exercises I'd watch her get to the point of shaking & almost being in tears mid-lesson, and I'd have to stop and drag it out of her what was wrong. I didn't learn until we had a sit-down one on one after that how the last person she trained with had belittled her to the point that she was absolutely terrified to speak up or seek clarification, for fear it meant she was 'stupid, had no horse-sense, and could never be a successful rider' (as she was told). Is THAT really what/HOW we're "teaching" the young people in this sport??

Call me crazy but I thought my purpose as a trainer was to help you understand what's going on with your horse and how you can influence it to bring out the best of its abilities. If you don't understand something, or have any questions at all, ask me right away so we can address it! That way you're not going around sending the wrong messages to the horse while you're too busy worrying about what you don't get. I had my head bitten off by trainers plenty as a kid, and while I can certainly be tough, I'm NOT going to yell at you for seeking knowledge. No one should be yelled at for wanting to learn. That's why you're here -- to learn! :yes: Plus, I view client questions as feedback on how well I'm doing my job in explaining things clearly.

That said, I also had one woman who insisted on questioning EVERY.little.thing. I planned on making her poor sweet Dobbin do. (We were going over a tentative training schedule outline). Finally got the horse out into the ring on the lunge after over a year of doing nothing & he of course had a mini-explosion, which was actually quite tame for him when I hear mom on the sidelines yelling STOP! STOP! CAN'T YOU SEE HE'S SCARED?! HE DOESN'T LIKE THIS! YOU NEED TO STOP! from the rail. Yes it was annoying. Yes it was frustrating. Nevertheless, I still explained my viewpoint, thoughts on the horse's behavior, and answered her questions. I've never once not considered that to be part of a trainer's job. Trainers teach. Teaching = communication. If communication is beneath you, then IMHO you aren't a trainer. You're just another rider. And I use that term loosely nowadays, too. ;)

ETA: BeeHoney -- SO well-said. I agree 200%.

findeight
Nov. 26, 2011, 12:39 PM
"Why did you leave out a stride in a line in a manner that was so smooth I didn't even notice until other trainers mentioned it?" falls into the second...

And CERTAINLY not drag a trainer over the coals "faux innocently" on a public message board about it.

Well congratulations on turning pro and training for others, good luck with it.

Umm, since so many want to refer back to that other thread...that information was not included in the original post I responded to. Neither was that Pro catch rider's name...other posters revealed that long after I posted. Guess OP learned the hard way she is not as anonymous as she thought to some in her area eager to share their dislike of her and her horse.

Now can we please return to discussing what is an important area of client trainer relationships often complained about on COTH? In a general, non personal way that can apply to many situations?

doublesstable
Nov. 26, 2011, 01:22 PM
Exactly. The stop has already blown the round, therefore any schooling that happens afterward is just making the most of ring time. You've already lost, so what difference does it make?

So now the horse in the other thread stopped? Or evidence this horse is a stopping pig just because someone on a bb said so?

The other thread the OP asked a question about leaving a stride out... and didn't drag any trainer/rider over the coals.... :lol: funny how these things can get so blown out of proportion.


ETA: BeeHoney -- SO well-said. I agree 200%.


Agreed - well said.. as your post as well....

Trixie
Nov. 26, 2011, 06:55 PM
So now the horse in the other thread stopped? Or evidence this horse is a stopping pig just because someone on a bb said so?


Um, I was addressing a specific question:


Please understand that I'm asking a question for my own understanding (not trying to bash anyone). I don't know jack sh!t about hunters and how they are judged. Isn't stopping a more serious fault than leaving out a stride?

And the answer to that question is, and remains that if a horse has already stopped in a round, it IS in fact a more serious fault than leaving out a stride in a line, if that left out stride is done safely.

If you read the USEF rulebook, leaving out a stride in a related distance - with the exception of an in and out - is considered a "minor or major fault" depending on severity or division.

Refusing a fence is, without exception, considered a major fault.

Therefore, if you've already committed one major fault and it's a big horse show, where there will be plenty of horses that haven't committed major faults, the class is already blown. Of course, if everyone else is falling off or having more refusals, then I guess you could try to be the best of a bad lot.

Given that I'm not the one that called the horse a stopping pig, I would ask you not to put words in my mouth. Although, knowing Harold, I would venture that she is speaking from experience.

enjoytheride
Nov. 26, 2011, 08:26 PM
In the other thread the OP didn't mention that the horse had a history of stopping, which would answer the question of "why did the trainer leave strides out" with "because that is a better training method then letting the horse stop"

foursocks
Nov. 27, 2011, 12:55 AM
I expect my trainers to discuss with me how my horses are going, and so on, but I also trust their judgment. So, if they are producing good results and the horses seem happy I let my trainers do their thing, and (perhaps more importantly with regard to the original discussion), I am not barn blind. My last horse was rank, albeit talented, and I would not have questioned any good pro's need to school him at any point.

Regardless, if the rider on him was not producing good results, or I was worried that I was wasting my money, I sure as heck wouldn't go online and emote about my side of things to a bunch of strangers. Instead, I would discuss it with the pro(s) involved and figure out how to proceed. Surely that is a more productive solution?

Prime Time Rider
Nov. 27, 2011, 01:38 AM
There is no such thing as illegal tack in hunters, although there is unconventional tack so I do not understand what you mean or how a judge would have refused to judge the round.

Actually, there is unapproved tack in the hunter ring. Hunters cannot be shown in gag bits, for instance, or certain types of martigales. The USEF rule book specifies what types of bits hunters may be shown in.

Albion
Nov. 27, 2011, 02:08 AM
Actually, there is unapproved tack in the hunter ring. Hunters cannot be shown in gag bits, for instance, or certain types of martigales. The USEF rule book specifies what types of bits hunters may be shown in.

No, it does not:


SUBCHAPTER HU-4 ATTIRE, TACK AND EQUIPMENT.
HU125 TACK.
1. Regulation snaffles, pelhams and full bridles, all with cavesson nose bands, are recommended. A judge may penalize for non-conventional types of bits or nosebands.
2. Competitors may be refused an award unless they return to the ring for conformation or sound- ness with the same complete bridle in which they have performed.
3. Martingales of any type are prohibited in Under Saddle, hack and tie-breaking classes. Standing martingales are allowed for all over fence classes. All other martingales may be considered unconventional.

There is 'unconventional,' but nothing saying you MAY NOT show in something (with the exception of martingales in US classes), simply that you may be penalized.

meupatdoes
Nov. 27, 2011, 07:30 AM
No, it does not:



There is 'unconventional,' but nothing saying you MAY NOT show in something (with the exception of martingales in US classes), simply that you may be penalized.

There is.

You MAY NOT show in a whip longer than 30 inches.
Not, you may not "use" it, but you may not CARRY it.

You are not even allowed to school over fences with it in the schooling area, although you may flat with it. Not, you may not mercilessly beat your horse with it, you are prohibited from CARRYING it while hopping over a crossrail in the warmup ring.
Completely normal dressage whips are eliminated by this rule, and yes, I have been guilty of fogetting to make sure a student handed it back to me before entering the ring and been very politely reminded by the steward. The judge did in fact, refuse to judge the round.

Additionally, HU126 states that boots and wraps are expressly prohibited (not "unconventional"). Bell boots "may" be permitted if there is inclement weather and show management specifically allows them, otherwise they are prohibited.

HU126 is immediately below the section you quoted to Prime Time Rider.

enjoytheride
Nov. 27, 2011, 11:02 AM
I am aware of the whip length and bell boot rules, those are the only items that are prohibited, but by reading Part Time Rider's posts she was not talking about those items.

It seems to me that an owner needs to know the rules as well as the trainer so the owner doesn't accuse the trainer of riding with illegal equipment that isn't.

Unconventional tack is an entirely different thing and would affect placing but would not get you removed from the ring, so a trainer would need to discuss with the owner why they were riding with that tack.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 27, 2011, 02:32 PM
I just respond based on what posters ask-I not only don't know who she is, I don't give a rats as*. But I do know that rider and cannot imagine she needs to work so bad she'd take a POS pig with a whack job owner on.

But thanks for being rude. I was almost thinking we could have a civil discussion about something that comes up on here all the time without the name calling. Silly of me.

I hear ya, yup that's me the whack job owner and a pig for a horse.;)

Prime Time Rider
Nov. 27, 2011, 03:30 PM
I am aware of the whip length and bell boot rules, those are the only items that are prohibited, but by reading Part Time Rider's posts she was not talking about those items.

It seems to me that an owner needs to know the rules as well as the trainer so the owner doesn't accuse the trainer of riding with illegal equipment that isn't.

Unconventional tack is an entirely different thing and would affect placing but would not get you removed from the ring, so a trainer would need to discuss with the owner why they were riding with that tack.

Bottom line, the judge told the paddock master that she WOULD NOT JUDGE may horse's round if my horse was wearing the tack my trainer insisted on showing her in (a German martingale). I was standing at the in gate when the judge radioed the paddock master and told him that my horse would not be judged. When I informed my former trainer, he refused to remove the tack in question before the next round, and then proceeded to show up for the next division with my horse still wearing the same "unconventional" tack after he assured me he would remove it.

enjoytheride
Nov. 27, 2011, 03:37 PM
While I don't agree with your trainer refusing to remove tack you asked him to remove the judge was in the wrong. She should have judged your horse and scored appropriatly given the unconventional tack.

Blinky
Nov. 27, 2011, 06:36 PM
Ditto what foursocks said!

Zenyatta
Nov. 27, 2011, 08:24 PM
:lol: ^

I know trainers you not dare question.... their way or the highway...

Those are not the trainers for me. If I can ask a question as to why something is being done, I prefer the highway.

Zenyatta
Nov. 27, 2011, 08:25 PM
I once had a "trainer" use illegal tack in a hunter schooling round and consequently the round wasn't judged. The clueless "trainer" didn't realize that you couldn't use that tack in the hunter ring. When I asked him to please remove the illegal tack from my horse before showing it in the next class he refused and pulled the "I'm the trainer and so you shouldn't question my judgement" card. He proceeded to show my horse in the illegal tack and again the judge refused to judge the round. I finally told the trainer that unless he removed the illegal tack from my horse that I was going to scratch the horse from the remainder of the classes since I wasn't about to pay for rounds that couldn't be judged. He threw a hissy fit and I found a new trainer the next week.

That's not a trainer, that's an idiot.:D

Trees4U
Nov. 27, 2011, 09:15 PM
Agree with enjoytheride re: judging.

Also, having used full bridles on saddlebreds, I find it curious that those are acceptable tack in hunters but so many other things are not.

doublesstable
Nov. 27, 2011, 11:29 PM
Bottom line, the judge told the paddock master that she WOULD NOT JUDGE may horse's round if my horse was wearing the tack my trainer insisted on showing her in (a German martingale). I was standing at the in gate when the judge radioed the paddock master and told him that my horse would not be judged. When I informed my former trainer, he refused to remove the tack in question before the next round, and then proceeded to show up for the next division with my horse still wearing the same "unconventional" tack after he assured me he would remove it.



While I don't agree with your trainer refusing to remove tack you asked him to remove the judge was in the wrong. She should have judged your horse and scored appropriatly given the unconventional tack.


I agree with enjoytheride - but it's the judges discretion to do what they feel is right -

I once forgot and rode in a Hunter class with a flash - judge actually approached me and said you should have won the class but I had to knock you down a bit because of the flash. LOL... no trainer around to blame - it was ME!

Everythingbutwings
Nov. 28, 2011, 08:21 AM
So, Doublesstable,


You should express such "personal" statements as you have above in a PM. Because of your posts, regardless if I agree with you or not; caused the last thread to be closed by the moderator!You're fine with the OP on the locked thread posting a complete fabrication of a "question" about a "hypothetical" situation immediately after she was seen at a show with her trainer where this situation (minus a few blatant and pertinent facts) occurred but want the rest of the story taken to PM?

The OP on the locked thread has made it obviously clear through multiple posts for some time EXACTLY who her trainer is. What she indulged herself in on that thread was an old fashioned hissy fit, with a side of reputation tarnishing for dessert.

:rolleyes:

magnolia73
Nov. 28, 2011, 10:24 AM
I think it is well within your rights to question a trainer about any topic, provided you do your questioning in a professional manner at a suitable time...

Scenario 1: Rider leaves out a step. Client runs up shrieking asking for answers while rider is trying ot prepare for her next trip. Not OK

Scenario 2: Show is over or there is a lull in activity. Client asks "why did you leave out a step in that line? it seemed like Dobbin was being really good"

You do have a right to know why a decision was made, but you need to ask in a professional manner, at an appropriate time.

doublesstable
Nov. 28, 2011, 11:01 AM
So, Doublesstable,

You're fine with the OP on the locked thread posting a complete fabrication of a "question" about a "hypothetical" situation immediately after she was seen at a show with her trainer where this situation (minus a few blatant and pertinent facts) occurred but want the rest of the story taken to PM?

The OP on the locked thread has made it obviously clear through multiple posts for some time EXACTLY who her trainer is. What she indulged herself in on that thread was an old fashioned hissy fit, with a side of reputation tarnishing for dessert.

:rolleyes:

As far as I knew the question from the OP of the other thread was not hypothetical or not factual. Basically the question asked was - have you left strides out? And the OP never mentioned who the rider was. And I understood it was not a trainer, it was a rider....

I thought it got personal when "another" poster mentioned the riders name, not the OP of the other thread. And yes, I did think that was wrong. The person that was upset should have PMed the OP instead they put the persons name out there for the world to see....

Sorry OP of this thread; don't mean to de-rail.....

findeight
Nov. 28, 2011, 12:13 PM
Sorry OP of this thread; don't mean to de-rail.....

It's OK. been here a long time and have a thick skin. Although the amount of emotion and personal sniping is kind of surprising. Doubt most on here personally know any of the principles-or care.

I thought that one initially was a good general question asking if anybody had a Pro leave out strides that boiled down to when is it OK to ask a trainer or Pro rider who is not your trainer and what to expect from them communication wise. It went downhill after the first 2 pages.

Most have stuck to that communication question on here and that is what I wanted to encourage...since better then half of the client/trainer issues complained about on here over and over and over are about just that or lack thereof.

Everythingbutwings
Nov. 28, 2011, 12:25 PM
As far as I knew the question from the OP of the other thread was not hypothetical or not factual. Now you know.

naters
Nov. 28, 2011, 12:52 PM
Doubt most on here personally know any of the principles-or care.


Exactly. I was enjoying the original discussion on strides/etc when the rider/trainer's posse pounced and kind of ruined it.

Same for this thread.... the posse keeps trying to pounce.

I didn't know or give a crap who they were talking about until the posse outed the trainer/rider/owner. Now I know who they are, but still don't give a crap, and am still learning a lot from the discussion on interpersonal communication between trainers and students. Seems like a good topic, and has brought up some good points.



Back to the original topic of this thread:
It has worked for me in the past to just be very direct. I assume the trainer knows more than I based on the fact that if they didn't, then they would be paying ME.

BUT based on that same assumption, I am paying for the education of my horse and myself.

I didn't pay tuition to take a college class and not ask questions when I wanted to know something.... why should I not ask my trainer in the same manner?

"Hey, I noticed XYZ, why is that?"

or

"What happened over jump 8?"

or

"Can you explain to me the difference between X and Y?"

bornfreenowexpensive
Nov. 28, 2011, 01:06 PM
Now can we please return to discussing what is an important area of client trainer relationships often complained about on COTH? In a general, non personal way that can apply to many situations?


I think that if it is my horse, and I'm paying the bills, it is ok to question a rider/trainer at anytime. I will treat them as a professional and expect them to treat me professionally. I'm not going to scream hysterically at them etc. I expect to be able to have an adult conversation at an appropriate time. I expect responsive communication--they don't have to drop everything they are doing to speak with me whenever I want, but if I call/text, I expect a reasonable response time...typically a day or so. JUST as I would give them. They are not more busy or more important than I am...no matter who they are...so I expect them to treat me like I would treat my own clients. From my time working in the horse world when I was younger....this is perhaps the biggest issue. The ego of some. The horse world is a small small world...and people in it some times think they are more important than they really are---and others put them on a pedestal that they do not deserve to be on ;)

Bottom line, they are in a service industry. They are providing a service that I can purchase from a NUMBER of sources no matter how good they think they are...they are replaceable. Just as we all are. So if they want my business...they need to EARN my trust and continue to earn my trust by both doing a good job and being a good communicator.

I've pulled my horse away from a very BNT/R (as in a WEG rider). Ultimately what caused me to walk was poor communication issues. It is critical for pro riders/trainers to develop these skills....and there is NO room for ego trips or thinking they are god's gift to horses here. That may work with a small amount of owners...but definitely will not work with owners that have a clue about horses! You also do not BS an owner who can see through your BS;)

NO pro rider is perfect...nor do I expect them to be. But being able to communicate with an owner is fundamental. It is THEIR horse...and they are paying the bills.

I'm a lawyer....I have NO issues whatsoever with a client questioning me. It is MY job to communicate with them--in fact it is an ethical obligation. I expect the same from anyone providing me with a service. If a trainer/rider has an issue with that...it sends up HUGE red flags for me and I will not walk but will RUN away from them. If they can not answer my questions...and convince me as to why they are doing something and basically why I should continue to pay for their services....then I will find someone who can....and trust me...there are ALWAYS other riders and trainers who can do as good a job if not better.

doublesstable
Nov. 28, 2011, 01:06 PM
Now you know.

I base my knowledge of something on facts and evidence.

Timex
Nov. 28, 2011, 01:41 PM
Gotta love the cattiness that is COTH. *sigh*

As a trainer that not only didn't see the other thread, and couldn't care less, I welcome any question that is asked at the appropriate time and in the appropriate manner. I don't have owners who don't ride their own horses, not only as the one paying the bills, but also as the (at least eventual) rider, they need to know what's going on, what works and what doesn't, etc.

dani0303
Nov. 28, 2011, 02:18 PM
I didn't read through all 3 pages so bare with me:

I am a pro, but I am also human. I DO make mistakes, which is always accompanied by profuse apologies to the owner. I also always take the owner's input into consideration before and after I ride a round. It is THEIR horse they're paying me to ride it. Therefore, if they want me to add 17 strides down the outside lines, I will add 17 strides. I generally do what they ask unless it is dangerous or detrimental to the horses progress.

Madeline
Nov. 28, 2011, 02:35 PM
I once had a "trainer" use illegal tack in a hunter schooling round and consequently the round wasn't judged. .

What was the illegal tack?

(Never mind. Already answered.)

Linny
Nov. 28, 2011, 05:21 PM
If I were hiring a rider (BN or otherwise) to show my horse, there would have to be a reason. If that reason was to overcome an issue (stopping, spooking, getting too strong into the corners...) then I think that I should be able to explain the issue to said trainer and expect some follow up. Did they feel what I did? What did they do to correct it?

With the exception of the elite ranks and those who buy high performance or Derby horses and hand them off to pro's, most of us ammy's are asking pro's to ride to improve the horse for us. We want our horses to go better for us, and thus ask pro's to get on them now and agin.

If a class is already blown by a stop or some other heinous mistake, I don't see any reason not to use the ring to train a little. You are paying for 8 fences. If he's rushing, the rider demanding the add's may make him alot more rideable next time. If he's being a looky-lou a tap of the stick might keep his mind on his job and you get a better horse as a result.

sadlmakr
Nov. 28, 2011, 05:30 PM
I found it hard to follow just what was the issue here. Other stuff was thrown in and I lost the track of this thread.
IF the trainer was using illegal tack then by all means the owner WHO is PAYING for it ought to be able to question the "trainer " why he continues to use illegal tack. I would fire the clown if it were my horse.
But since I could not really follow what was going on, I guess it is just my humble opinion of what I could follow.
Sorry. Regards, sadlmakr

Madeline
Nov. 28, 2011, 06:37 PM
I would probably tie a can to the trainer's tail just for using a German martingale in the first place, but that's just me.

findeight
Nov. 28, 2011, 06:41 PM
There is no issue in this thread, there were problems in another that is now locked and dead.

The gist of this one is simply when is it OK to ask a Pro working with or riding your horse a question, how you should go about it and what you should expect communication wise from them.

The unusual (not technically illegal) tack came up as part of should a client question the pro.

I would have questioned the German martingale (a draw rein set up) as wildly inappropriate in a Hunter class and asked it be removed, quietly and calmly. If it stayed on I would just as quietly dismiss the trainer and hire another-and that German martingale better not show up on my bill.

vxf111
Nov. 28, 2011, 10:43 PM
I would have questioned the German martingale (a draw rein set up) as wildly inappropriate in a Hunter class and asked it be removed, quietly and calmly. If it stayed on I would just as quietly dismiss the trainer and hire another-and that German martingale better not show up on my bill.

Me too, what exactly could that possibly have been meant to accomplish that was...

1. Hunteresque

2. Fit for public consumption

That's just odd to me. But I can see a justification for lots of things that will knock you out of the ribbons but are necessary-- like fixing a stop by riding overly bold/positive aggressive, fixing a rusher by adding, pulling up a horse that tries to run in the hack etc. Those are all in the moment "fix it now or deal with it worse later" decisions. But walking in with a german martingale on? Why? That's a horse with more than a "fix it now or later" problem. That's a horse not ready to show yet, or at the very least should be going HC.

mooonie
Nov. 29, 2011, 01:17 AM
I hope this thread can keep going in a positive direction because looking for a new trainer is never easy.
One important factor is empathy for the horse.
I recently viewed a video of a prospective trainer teaching a student. Clearly, the horse was frightened of the fence and ran out/stopped. The trainer's "solution" was to tell the student to run the horse faster at the fence and spank it hard.
I have my opinion of this but won't say. Let's just say it didn't end well.
And anyone that calls a beautiful, young horse a "pig", just makes me sad...:sadsmile:

findeight
Nov. 29, 2011, 09:03 AM
Well, sometimes they act like pigs. But that opinion should not be vocalized with many owners any more then you would call their child a moron to their faces. But generally the service provider does not make degrading remarks to the consumer about what they are working on or with.

I have actually heard a "trainer" call a child on a Pony a moron on a pig. In public. That double whammy got her fired on the spot. In public. To applause from onlookers.

No need to put up with that, always have a plan B. there are lots of trainers out there.

HoofaSchmigetty
Nov. 29, 2011, 06:02 PM
If YOUR paying the bills than ANYTIME is ok.....REMEMBER....Its YOUR horse!!!

salymandar
Nov. 29, 2011, 06:47 PM
I've had my trainer call my beautiful poopsie something akin to a pig. You know what? It was deserved! Fortunately, I have not had a trainer call me a moron (not that I know of, at least :p).

I try, as a owner, to be as objective about myself and my horse as I can. I also try to have a bit of a sense of humor about things and have an open dialogue with my trainer/ rider as we progress so I know where we are, where we have been, where we are going and can discuss deviations along the way. I try to be involved without being in the trainers face about it, so I am not surprised by things like german martingales, leaving out strides, etc.

I am a pretty involved owner. Even when I had a long-distance horse, I made a point to see him regularly, to ride him to check his progress, to talk with the trainer, grooms etc about his progress and care. At first, barns who are used to more hands off clients are a little taken aback, but when they realize I am not there to criticize, but rather to understand their methods and be involved, they soften.

I expect that I am going to make mistakes. I expect that my horse is going to make mistakes. I expect that my rider/ trainer is going to make mistakes. Have I been disappointed when my pro missed a change or a distance? Sure, but is it really worth dwelling on it? Not really.

If horse is demonstrating behavioral issues, like stopping or bucking in the corners, I try to find an appropriate time to talk with the trainer/ rider to discuss the problem and possible solutions to work through it. I understand that problems happen, but I want to know if the trainer feels it is fixable and how. This helps me to know whether the trainer likes and wants to keep working with me and the horse, or whether it is time for a new situation for all. Sometimes horses and riders don't mesh well.

If trainer is being ignorant, dangerous or causing a problem, you bet there will be a discussion. The discussion will be as private as possible. If a resolution acceptable to me (the horse's owner and bill payer) is not reached, there will probably be a parting of ways.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 29, 2011, 07:13 PM
I've had my trainer call my beautiful poopsie something akin to a pig. You know what? It was deserved! Fortunately, I have not had a trainer call me a moron (not that I know of, at least :p).

I try, as a owner, to be as objective about myself and my horse as I can. I also try to have a bit of a sense of humor about things and have an open dialogue with my trainer/ rider as we progress so I know where we are, where we have been, where we are going and can discuss deviations along the way. I try to be involved without being in the trainers face about it, so I am not surprised by things like german martingales, leaving out strides, etc.

I am a pretty involved owner. Even when I had a long-distance horse, I made a point to see him regularly, to ride him to check his progress, to talk with the trainer, grooms etc about his progress and care. At first, barns who are used to more hands off clients are a little taken aback, but when they realize I am not there to criticize, but rather to understand their methods and be involved, they soften.

I expect that I am going to make mistakes. I expect that my horse is going to make mistakes. I expect that my rider/ trainer is going to make mistakes. Have I been disappointed when my pro missed a change or a distance? Sure, but is it really worth dwelling on it? Not really.

If horse is demonstrating behavioral issues, like stopping or bucking in the corners, I try to find an appropriate time to talk with the trainer/ rider to discuss the problem and possible solutions to work through it. I understand that problems happen, but I want to know if the trainer feels it is fixable and how. This helps me to know whether the trainer likes and wants to keep working with me and the horse, or whether it is time for a new situation for all. Sometimes horses and riders don't mesh well.

If trainer is being ignorant, dangerous or causing a problem, you bet there will be a discussion. The discussion will be as private as possible. If a resolution acceptable to me (the horse's owner and bill payer) is not reached, there will probably be a parting of ways.

Nice post! And hind sight being 20/20, I would have, at the very least, re-worded my OP.
I have had a "meeting of the minds" with my trainers, and been fortunate that rarely an issue that came up was not easily resolved.
Open Discussions between client and trainer is on the top of my list of importance to success, as it "takes a village" to get there and be there, as we all know.
If you search this topic, it seems there have been many a thread regarding trainers and clients, from pony finals to indoors to eq finals. There are threads about trainers worried about losing clients to other trainers, trainers stealing clients and disloyal clients. Trainers trying to keep clients happy, jumping enough, buying their horses, controlling trainers. Its kinda nuts. Trainers who love their clients, who hate their clients, clients who hate them, how to leave trainers, get along with trainers, etc..."how its done" etc...
Bottom line is, we should try to get along, less back stabbing, more understanding on each others part.
And yes, it is also about money but its really not about money or winning, its really about the love of the horses.

NeddyDevine
Nov. 30, 2011, 09:59 AM
~~~~~And we all sing Kumbaya~~~~~

saje
Nov. 30, 2011, 10:18 AM
^ Snort! ^

showidaho
Nov. 30, 2011, 04:08 PM
~~~~~And we all sing Kumbaya~~~~~

I am confused. This is in reference to what?

mvp
Nov. 30, 2011, 04:20 PM
I am confused. This is in reference to what?

In reference to this:


Nice post! And hind sight being 20/20, I would have, at the very least, re-worded my OP.
I have had a "meeting of the minds" with my trainers, and been fortunate that rarely an issue that came up was not easily resolved.
Open Discussions between client and trainer is on the top of my list of importance to success, as it "takes a village" to get there and be there, as we all know.
If you search this topic, it seems there have been many a thread regarding trainers and clients, from pony finals to indoors to eq finals. There are threads about trainers worried about losing clients to other trainers, trainers stealing clients and disloyal clients. Trainers trying to keep clients happy, jumping enough, buying their horses, controlling trainers. Its kinda nuts. Trainers who love their clients, who hate their clients, clients who hate them, how to leave trainers, get along with trainers, etc..."how its done" etc...
Bottom line is, we should try to get along, less back stabbing, more understanding on each others part.
And yes, it is also about money but its really not about money or winning, its really about the love of the horses.

I do think that once you take money from someone-- or agree to buy a service from someone-- you agreed to show up in that relationship as an adult and a professional. Adults and pros speak to one another, as equals. If a trainer can't do that with me, I assume he/she doesn't want my money. No harm, no foul. But tell me that, don't pantomime it, ok?

findeight
Nov. 30, 2011, 06:01 PM
I am confused. This is in reference to what?

Reasons that have nothing at all to do with this thread or topic.

showidaho
Dec. 1, 2011, 11:04 AM
Ah! Thanks findeight and mvp.