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Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:00 PM
ride a 5 stride in a 6 stride line in the pregreens at a AA show,not once but in the warm up trip and first hunter round?
Then tell you she just wanted him to go forward?
I said "really leave out a stride" hummm...
I've never had a trainer once say to me go ahead in your trip and leave out a stride...:no:

meupatdoes
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:09 PM
From your description it sounds like they did it in the first two classes. After this horse had enough go button and they did the 6 for the rest of the division?

Maybe there really was an issue with the 'go button' that they wanted to address, and then when they got the answer they wanted they did the normal strides.

Was the horse better or worse from the start of the day to the end? That is really what counts.

LoveJubal
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:12 PM
You didn't get to pick how many strides to do in the lines. In my experience, it has always been kind of a set thing. :yes:

Maybe I should be a trainer, then I can pick how many strides I want to do... ;)

December
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:14 PM
I would prefer the "installing" to happen before entering the ring...

MoonRiver5
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:14 PM
I think it depends how the rest of the trip was going. If the horse missed a change or there was some other reason that this wasn't likely a ribbon-worthy round, I'm okay with making it another schooling session or learning experience for the horse. I gotta say though, when my horse was on his way to a top round and the pro rider added a stride because he "wasn't listening," I was pretty ticked. So I get where you are coming from. It's your nickel.

AmmyByNature
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:30 PM
Was the goal of the horse show the pregreen classes or a later division, such as the adults? I.e. was the pregreen a warmup division, or were you chasing points in it and could have won it with the proper number of strides. If the pregreen division was used for a pro to warm the horse up for later divisions, was the horse then better in the later divisions? Was adding up down the first line perhaps a problem that the ammy riding the horse later might have?

If dropping a stride was planned for and ridden for and for an actual purpose (i.e. leaving one out in a jumper course) and the course allowed it (i.e. the line was set soft) and the trainer made a decision to run his little legs off to make a point, it's maybe not the end of the world.

But your OP doesn't give me nearly enough information to determine if this was the case, or if a mistake in riding or judgement was made. It's hard to get a horse show atmosphere if you aren't at a horse so, so unfortunately, sometimes some schooling has to take place in the show ring -- hence warmup classes and pros taking horses around so they are better for their owners later.

(Also, I apparently REALLY like doing the i.e. thing...)

Go Fish
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:33 PM
Ummm, no.

I could maybe see leaving one out on a 4-stride line, particularly on a big-strided, wide-eyed greenie, but a 6-stride? If you can't fix something down a line in 6 strides, you need to go home and work on yourself. Even I can manage that.

Or maybe said trainer needs a calculator? :lol:

AmmyByNature
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:38 PM
Ummm, no.

I could maybe see leaving one out on a 4-stride line, particularly on a big-strided, wide-eyed greenie, but a 6-stride? If you can't fix something down a line in 6 strides, you need to go home and work on yourself. Even I can manage that.

Or maybe said trainer needs a calculator? :lol:

Why would it be easier to leave one out in a shorter line? It should be the opposite. To take it to the extremes, think how hard it would be to do a one in a two.

By the numbers: two stride set at 36'. To do in one stride, horse needs a stride of about 24', minus a bit if you get them to jump in and out big. In a six stride line set at 84', your horse only needs a 14.4' stride to get down it in five. Again, minus a bit if you get in and out with a bit more than the traditional 6' take off and landing.

Doing a 5 in a 6 is a heck of a lot easier than doing a 3 in a 4...

joiedevie99
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:39 PM
It depends. Trainer and Owner need to have a discussion about the purpose of the show before it all starts. If the purpose is year-end points, qualifying, etc. I would expect the trainer to finesse the round to the best of their ability - which means doing the numbers.

If the trip is already blown, the horse is out there for training purposes, the horse is being prepped for the ammy owner, or any number of other options, then I expect training to take precedence over ribbons - and yes, that may mean teaching a horse that his go button has to work in the show ring.

Alter Not Do This
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:45 PM
[edit]

doublesstable
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:45 PM
1) ride a 5 stride in a 6 stride line in the pregreens at a AA show,not once but in the warm up trip and first hunter round?

2)Then tell you she just wanted him to go forward?


I said "really leave out a stride" hummm...
I've never had a trainer once say to me go ahead in your trip and leave out a stride...:no:


1) No.

2) No.

Got repremanded for riding a 5 in a 6 in a lesson recently while riding my small strided horse - my response was - "well at least we know he can do it" It wasn't pretty however!

And wouldn't it be better to get your pace in the corners not in the middle of a line??

Giddy-up
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:45 PM
Wait...I am a little confused. Line is a 6 stride. Trainer rode the line in 5 strides in BOTH classes ON PURPOSE?

How much forward did they want? And how did the other lines ride after leaving a stride out? Where was this line in the course--start, middle, end?

But to answer your question--no, I have never had a trainer tell me they purposefully left a stride out in a hunter line. And I have never had a trainer advise me to do that either.

2bayboys
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:53 PM
Sounds dangerous, especially for a pre-green horse.

Go Fish
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:57 PM
Why would it be easier to leave one out in a shorter line? It should be the opposite. To take it to the extremes, think how hard it would be to do a one in a two.

By the numbers: two stride set at 36'. To do in one stride, horse needs a stride of about 24', minus a bit if you get them to jump in and out big. In a six stride line set at 84', your horse only needs a 14.4' stride to get down it in five. Again, minus a bit if you get in and out with a bit more than the traditional 6' take off and landing.

Doing a 5 in a 6 is a heck of a lot easier than doing a 3 in a 4...

You have a lot more time to make adjustments in a 6-stride. I'm not talking bounces or one-strides.

Spud&Saf
Nov. 21, 2011, 01:57 PM
If you have to ask here, then I think you have your answer. :D

Were they back to back rounds?

If forward was the issue, then wouldn't getting the 6 not a 7 have been the objective?? If you're almost adding, don't see why you would purposefully try to leave one out in the ring at an AA show...

Seems to me someone's trying to cover up a slightly too fresh horse.

findeight
Nov. 21, 2011, 02:00 PM
I campaigned a couple of Pre Greens including AA shows. I never had my trainer/pro rider say they left strides out on purpose to teach the horse to go.

Actually they managed to get the horse going (or slowed down) in the proper number of strides in a AA show ring so it never really came up for discussion.

Schooling? Yeah. Clinic excercises to teach adjustability? Sure. At home? Of course.

AA show ring??? Never.

Thats a really, really expensive way (for the owner) to go about it. 3' may not be huge but that oxer in a AA Pre Green ring is big enough to catch a leg and flip off a long and weak spot after a leave out.

I know there is more to this then was shared but, really, none of the trainers and clinicians I ever worked with used leaving out a stride at anything over a speed bump to teach Green horses to go forward. Anywhere.

AmmyByNature
Nov. 21, 2011, 02:10 PM
You have a lot more time to make adjustments in a 6-stride. I'm not talking bounces or one-strides.

But the case here isn't about making an adjustment, it's about purposely and intentionally leaving a stride out with forethought.

I'm just playing devils advocate here, really. I can see how a trainer might make that decision. Do I necessarily agree with it? No. Would I like to see it done on my horse? No.

But I do acknowledge that riding a line with the intent to leave out a stride is far different from accidentally leaving out a stride which is, I agree, really very dangerous. To intentionally leave out a stride in a 6 stride I have to lengthen my horse's step by a little more than 2'. Not impossible, if that's how I'm riding it, especially in a line that long.

My trainer has never done this, although she has intentionally gotten my horse deep to the out oxer.

I'm just saying that we don't necessarily have all the information here necessary to judge the trainer.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 21, 2011, 02:33 PM
Ok, here's more info.

1) horse is in his second year pregreen fences are 3'3", ie very well schooled.

2) horse was shown by trainer all 2010 11 shows never an issue.

3) no it was not previously discussed or even a good idea IMHO.
had it been brought up to me I would have said absolutely no reason to leave out a stride on one line at Zone finals in front of all of your peers. In the warm up class and the first hunter class.
We can address any new issues outside the ring and scratch the classses. That is a well know fact with me, if things are not going well, we scratch and regroup as neccessary.

4) net effect horse was very nervous the next day in the lines.

findeight
Nov. 21, 2011, 02:50 PM
How cavalier of former trainer to decide to wa$te your money without any consult. Despite the fact it sounds like this horse has been a good one in the show ring for over a year and has no huge issues that require publically riding the crap out of him down the lines to a leave out.

Buh bye

ElisLove
Nov. 21, 2011, 04:26 PM
Hunter lines are already set to be a good distance, as they want to show case a ground covering canter so I can't ever imagine leaving out a stride in a hunter line. Maybe if it was an 8 stride bending line and you happened to be going too direct or had a big jump in but in a 6 stride no and FOR SURE not a 4 stride line like someone else suggested. Talk about a suicide ride!

Hattie
Nov. 21, 2011, 05:57 PM
I don't know....since your trainer's daughter is one of the top riders (and very competent) in the country, I would think there is a very good reason. Why didn't you ask her instead of unknown people in cyberspace?

Harold
Nov. 21, 2011, 06:19 PM
I don't know....since [the rider] is one of the top riders (and very competent) in the country, I would think there is a very good reason. Why didn't you ask her instead of unknown people in cyberspace?


Thank you Hattie!! If you all knew who the OP was talking about , you might just question her take on the situation. One of the best hunter riders in the country, indeed. And a lovely person as well... Knowing the rider, I highly doubt the OP's posting as, well, at all correct. Sometimes owners can't comprehend that their perfect ponykins (who only meet the rider at shows) could possibly have needed a tune-up or anything. :no::no:

CHT
Nov. 21, 2011, 06:58 PM
I too have never heard of improving a horse by leaving out strides.

I have heard of pros who forget how many strides they are supposed to do, and let a big strided horse leave out a stride in an "ooops" moment.

Since the above posters know who the trainer is, perhaps they can share this training logic with the rest of us so we can learn?

Hattie
Nov. 21, 2011, 09:02 PM
CHT - just because I know who the professional rider is doesn't mean I know her reason, nor do I know the OP and her horse. But I'll bet my left arm, that she didn't get "lost" in the line and say "oops!"

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 21, 2011, 09:31 PM
Ok, Girls, this is not about "knowing who the trainer is"its about our original question.
We've had many a top rider on our horses, and many a time things don't go as planned. But many a time they do.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 21, 2011, 09:46 PM
Thank you Hattie!! If you all knew who the OP was talking about , you might just question her take on the situation. One of the best hunter riders in the country, indeed. And a lovely person as well... Knowing the rider, I highly doubt the OP's posting as, well, at all correct. Sometimes owners can't comprehend that their perfect ponykins (who only meet the rider at shows) could possibly have needed a tune-up or anything. :no::no:

the question remains, have YOU ever had a trainer....

Trixie
Nov. 21, 2011, 10:26 PM
There was no "question her take on the situation"

So what you're saying is that instead of asking this trainer (who is apparently an extremely qualified rider) for her take on the situation (beyond wanting him to go forward), you prefer to ask a bunch of internet strangers who have likely never seen your horse go regarding what they think happened?

Or as per the OP, do you just want to know if our trainers have ever left out strides in lines?

Can I ask what you're trying to accomplish by starting this thread (rather, what answer you're looking for)? It seems like sort of an odd thing to try to get a consensus opinion on without anyone being aware of the potential variables.

Hattie
Nov. 21, 2011, 10:43 PM
[edit] Believe me, [the rider] does not want to blow a class anymore than the owner wants to be embarrassed in front of her peers. However, what annoys me to no end are the comments regarding [the rider] from posters on this thread that call the rider's abilities "cavalier, rides the crap out of a horse, needs a calculator, can't count strides, etc." Sure, any competent pro can make a mistake, but they ARE NOT going to make the same mistake twice (and in the same line), especially one of this caliber.

Prime Time Rider
Nov. 21, 2011, 11:29 PM
Ok, here's more info.

1) horse is in his second year pregreen fences are 3'3", ie very well schooled.

2) horse was shown by trainer all 2010 11 shows never an issue.

3) no it was not previously discussed or even a good idea IMHO.
had it been brought up to me I would have said absolutely no reason to leave out a stride on one line at Zone finals in front of all of your peers. In the warm up class and the first hunter class.
We can address any new issues outside the ring and scratch the classses. That is a well know fact with me, if things are not going well, we scratch and regroup as neccessary.

4) net effect horse was very nervous the next day in the lines.

5) said trainer will not be riding said horse, we have moved to another trainer.:no:

At zone finals after this well schooled horse has been doing second year pre-greens??? What the f were they thinking???
I can understand adding a stride on purpose on a green horse, (but not at zone finals) but leaving a stride out? :no:

Ammy Owner
Nov. 22, 2011, 12:17 AM
I think the OP was just trying to see if she had a legitimate reason to be ticked off, which I think she does. If the horse was not ready to show for whatever reason (they have bad days too) then the trainer should have told the OP before going in the ring and blowing her money. Period.

Renn/aissance
Nov. 22, 2011, 12:59 AM
Nota bene? Nobody knew who was riding the horse until said rider's supporters came and said "This trainer was the one who left strides out." Since we didn't see it, and we aren't the horse's riders or trainers or owners or connected in any way, and thus can't really judge what the heck happened here... all that's been accomplished here is turning a legitimate question (that perhaps should have been directed to the trainer) which was stated in such a way as not to name the person in question into an I-hear-the-train-a-comin' 'cause now names got named.

I'm a little curious about the logic here.

And to stay on topic, if, after galloping up and leaving it out in the warm-up round, the job wasn't done and the pilot still felt the need to gallop up again and leave it out again in the actual trip, I'd be displeased too- assuming I were the one paying for the classes.

meupatdoes
Nov. 22, 2011, 04:19 AM
Ya think??? We don't know you, but you seem to know us.
We have been around for many many more years than we think you realize.
What we posted is what happened. There was no "question her take on the situation" And if you want to really know you can look up the horse's USEF record and see what he's won to know the horse has been quite sucessful.

If you are so experienced, watching the rounds should have told you the answer.

Was he draggin' in the beginning? Was he sulling the leg? Did you see something that needed to be addressed?

Then after the trainer pressed the go button was he better?
Did you see improvement?
Did his canter change? His expression? His attitude?

If the trainer was just trying to lie about not being able to control the horse probably you would have been able to tell he was on the muscle, no? Probably you would have seen the rider apply brakes and him blow past them?



Your horse has been "quite successful" over the course of his career and you are having a pout on COTH over two rounds. Two rounds ridden by one of the best professionals out there.
Honestly.

findeight
Nov. 22, 2011, 07:58 AM
OK so we get the "why do you all blindly follow trainers around without question" all the time.

Then we get a legitimate question from an owner who feels she should have been consulted about what was going to happen on her dime at an important show but takes the high road and does NOT name names.

So now we are getting "how dare you question this rider because she is a big name" and it gets personal as this poster did not intend.

Owner has the right to question and participate in decisions that effect her and her horses from ANY trainer or rider...unless you think a big name entitles a trainer/rider to blindly lead an owner around.

I never cared who my rider was, I asked questions and got answered...and did get mad once or twice when they were not focused and made stupid mistakes or made decisions on my behalf without a consult.

Either the owner is involved or they are not, this one wants to be and is right to question her paid rider. There are plenty of them out there, all very good.

Harold
Nov. 22, 2011, 08:19 AM
OK so we get the "why do you all blindly follow trainers around without question" all the time.

Then we get a legitimate question from an owner who feels she should have been consulted about what was going to happen on her dime at an important show but takes the high road and does NOT name names.

So now we are getting "how dare you question this rider because she is a big name" and it gets personal as this poster did not intend.

Owner has the right to question and participate in decisions that effect her and her horses from ANY trainer or rider...unless you think a big name entitles a trainer/rider to blindly lead an owner around.

I never cared who my rider was, I asked questions and got answered...and did get mad once or twice when they were not focused and made stupid mistakes or made decisions on my behalf without a consult.

Either the owner is involved or they are not, this one wants to be and is right to question her paid rider. There are plenty of them out there, all very good.



There's so much wrong with this post, it's just plain silly. Who's advocating blindly following a BNR? The OP fully knows why her horse had to be ridden a certain way...really, you think this rider/trainer didn't explain her rationale? Then you've never dealt with her. This trainer didn't just sweep in and badly screw up the horse. OP came on here, gave an incomplete story, and wanted some {{{hugs}}} from a bunch of internet strangers because she was bummed that her horse didn't perform. The annoying part of the post that made me respond is that it is dishonest. And I feel bad for riders who are blamed for owner inadequacy.

That her horse has had such good results is a huge tribute to this rider who rode him to them! People think that a horse can meet a great rider at shows only and always have great results. Anyone who knows a top rider who does a lot of this knows what a difficult situation can be when the horse isn't in their program. Especially when the horse may have some issues that need to be addressed before the first class. But if the horse isn't with the rider prior to the show, when can she address them?

Agree or disagree, I don't care. I didn't name the rider. But knowing her and the situation...the disingenuous (and flat out dishonest) first post was annoying. That is all.

supershorty628
Nov. 22, 2011, 08:27 AM
Harold, I believe the blindly following a BNR point came from Hattie's post.

akor
Nov. 22, 2011, 08:36 AM
Speaking of a calculator, I would be getting mine out and working out what the lower placing meant for my horse in standings (if that is possible in the hunter world) and what it did for other horses.

This could be a passive aggressive way of "firing" a client or just plain used as an excuse to go to another trainer by the client. I doubt there'd be this much goings on about it unless there was something building. Maybe it is best that they depart ways.

And of course, there is the training explanation - it's unfortunate the rider couldn't just come out of the ring and explain that though....

BTW, I don't want to seem as "siding" with the OP as I probably come across...I am one of those that defaults to the rider, as they are ON the horse at the time, they are the ones with the 'feel' and the are closest to the situation., They are not always right of course, but in the moment, they have millions of more pieces of information about the feel of the horse than anyone on the ground....

Alter Not Do This
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:00 AM
Anyone who knows a top rider who does a lot of this knows what a difficult situation can be when the horse isn't in their program. Especially when the horse may have some issues that need to be addressed before the first class. But if the horse isn't with the rider prior to the show, when can she address them?

Harold gets it. The rider isn't the trainer, the rider is a catch rider and the "very experienced and been around for years" OP, who is responsible for making sure the horse is ready to show, is trying to throw that rider under the bus on COTH rather than talk to the rider about what needs to be done to make sure the horse is ready to show. That's not blindly following a trainer, that's showing your ass.

The OP should shut up and take her toys and go find a new very BNT, assuming they haven't all read this thread and talked to the rider in question.

Trixie
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:25 AM
So now we are getting "how dare you question this rider because she is a big name" and it gets personal as this poster did not intend.

Actually, what we got was "Why DIDN'T you question this rider?" I'm sure an honest discussion could have cleared it up, but instead we're asking the internets to address an apparently specific problem with two rounds without knowing all the variables (for instance, who was schooling the horse up until that point? how was the horse otherwise behaving? is the horse in a regular program with this trainer beyond meeting them at shows?).

If the answer was only that the rider "wanted him to go forward" the next question should have been "why did you address that in this setting, and how will it help this horse in the future" not "INTERNET STRANGERS! HERE IS A VAGUE BUT POINTED QUESTION!"

If there were further questions after a long discussion with the pro, fine - but there don't seem to be. In fact, after the initial question, the OP just says that "mistakes" aren't acceptable. The way this discussion is framed, it seems as if the OP just wants her point validated.

MHM
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:44 AM
The OP should shut up and take her toys and go find a new very BNT, assuming they haven't all read this thread and talked to the rider in question.

Yes, except....



5) said trainer will not be riding said horse, we have moved to another trainer.:no:

The OP states s/he has already changed trainers.

If that decision has already been made, why bother starting this thread??

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:45 AM
Hello Guys I said have YOU ever had a trainer leave out a stride?

For the sake of argument, maybe you all have had a trainer use that method, I haven't but maybe I didn't know this was a legitmate training method.

I am very disappointed that names were named, as this was not about the particular rider it was about have you ever left out a stride question at a AA show.

To Harold, I really don't know you and your posts are very harsh, and way too personal, hope you are not that way to others.

Hattie
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:45 AM
Thank you Trixie and Harold. At no point did I say, or imply to blindly follow a well known trainer. My POINT was, why didn't you ask the said trainer why she schooled the horse in the show ring? What I read was internet strangers implying that the trainer didn't have a clue on what she was doing. "Outing" the rider certainly wasn't hard - the OP has talked about her BNT and BNR along with posting pictures of these riders on her horses.

loshad
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:46 AM
The OP should shut up and take her toys and go find a new very BNT, assuming they haven't all read this thread and talked to the rider in question.


Um, is there anyone left who would be willing to take on the OP? Judging from her previous posts, the OP does tend to go through trainers like water through a sieve and the horse world is so very, very small.

If my horse wasn't prepared for a show and I was the trainer, I can tell you I'd be looking for the responsible party a lot closer to home. YMMV.

NeddyDevine
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:47 AM
OP..So Sorry you and your horsie have had to go thru this

((((hugs))))

~~~~Neddy~~~~

EqTrainer
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:56 AM
OP..So Sorry you and your horsie have had to go thru this

((((hugs))))

~~~~Neddy~~~~

Wow. Its not like anyone died or was injured.

Trixie
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:00 AM
For the sake of argument, maybe you all have had a trainer use that method, I haven't but maybe I didn't know this was a legitmate training method.

If it was a legitimate question, I'm afraid I don't understand why you've already deemed it a mistake and a bad idea?

Can you tell us why you didn't clarify with the trainer?

meupatdoes
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:01 AM
Clients want to leave everything to trainers with a big blank check and then the second the trainer makes a training call all of a sudden they want to second guess everything and say it's really all too expensive for this trainer to be making training calls willy nilly. Then they want to be consulted. Then they want right of first refusal on every half halt.

Seriously this is TWO TRIPS.

If you think your horse's training should proceed in lockstep and linear fashion and you want to be consulted to sign off on every single training decision they make, then ride your own horse around the course. Then you can decide exactly when the stride gets left out and when you do the add. It's your horse and you want to decide how it gets ridden so ride it. Then you can really impress your friends.

Why even pay the trainer if you don't respect her decisions and then on top of it all come on COTH for a thinly disguised critique that you hope everyone else will pile in on, after you have already fired her.

You are very disappointed that names were named? Seriously with a straight face? You have not exactly disguised your identity or who you ride with and all of a sudden you are disappointed that names were named?

Good Lord.

skittlespony
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:03 AM
haha I did the exact opposite once. I did a 6 in a 5 and it wasn't pretty... at all

sarapony
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:09 AM
I can think of plenty of reasons to gun it down the line, particularly the first line. If the horse was being a cow about the ingate or getting its motor running, you can believe I wouldn't fault a trainer for putting a spur into it and making sure darling horsie understood that forward is the only answer.


I also know for sure that if it was my horse and a rider [edit] felt the need to purposely leave out a stride to teach a horse to "GO FORWARD" I would be embarassed and would be apologizing profusely to the rider and asking what I needed to be doing at home to change things...

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:20 AM
Train wreck, thanks guys.

I have the answers from the trainer, that wasn't what I was asking. As I have posted several times.

The question was have you ever had a trainer leave out strides at a AA horse show...

I really didn't need clarification about what happened with our trainer, just asking about your experiences.

However to the ones that were trying to be helpful, thank you for your thoughts.

BTW I defended the trainer to the other trainers who were standing there and said something to me. I didn't even know what the course was or the strides as I have complete confidence in this rider to know that. It was one of them who told me it was a 6 not 5.

We changed trainers because our schedule has changed, as well as other reasons.

dropitlikeitshot
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:20 AM
Clients want to leave everything to trainers with a big blank check and then the second the trainer makes a training call all of a sudden they want to second guess everything and say it's really all too expensive for this trainer to be making training calls willy nilly. Then they want to be consulted. Then they want right of first refusal on every half halt.

Seriously this is TWO TRIPS.

If you think your horse's training should proceed in lockstep and linear fashion and you want to be consulted to sign off on every single training decision they make, then ride your own horse around the course. Then you can decide exactly when the stride gets left out and when you do the add. It's your horse and you want to decide how it gets ridden so ride it. Then you can really impress your friends.

Why even pay the trainer if you don't respect her decisions and then on top of it all come on COTH for a thinly disguised critique that you hope everyone else will pile in on, after you have already fired her.

You are very disappointed that names were named? Seriously with a straight face? You have not exactly disguised your identity or who you ride with and all of a sudden you are disappointed that names were named?

Good Lord.

Well said!

Trainers make decisions in the moment that will hopefully make all the future rides better. If she did 5 in a 6 I would wager there was a very good reason for it. If the horse wasn't in the trainer's program 24/7, and the only schooling opportunities she had on the horse were at shows, then that's where the schooling gets done. Obviously the warm-up round wasn't enough schooling and she was made to repeat it in the second round to make her point very clear to the horse. That's her job and that's why you have her ride your horse.

Obviously she did the real step in the 3rd round, as you mention she only did the 5 the first two times. So, clearly the schooling worked. Sounds to me like she was doing her JOB. But hey, what do I know?

Sometimes you take a horse in the ring and it is running through your hand and being a nutter, and you have to add and add some more. Sometimes it's lugging and behind your leg and acting gate sour and you have to kick it forward and growl and hang off its side to get the job done.

Unfortunately you don't get to pick the shows at which this happens. It would be really nice to be able to explain to your horse, "Hey, this show is a Big Deal, so if you would just go in and not show your ass that would be great. Thanks!"

Sadly, and this may be news to you, but... horses don't speak english. And what's worse, you can't reason with them :no: It's a terrible plight!

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:21 AM
I can think of plenty of reasons to gun it down the line, particularly the first line. If the horse was being a cow about the ingate or getting its motor running, you can believe I wouldn't fault a trainer for putting a spur into it and making sure darling horsie understood that forward is the only answer.


I also know for sure that if it was my horse and a rider [edit] felt the need to purposely leave out a stride to teach a horse to "GO FORWARD" I would be embarassed and would be apologizing profusely to the rider and asking what I needed to be doing at home to change things...

luckily that wasn't our problem!!:):)

Jasmine
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:25 AM
Yep. I've done it. And had trainers do it. The horses, in both cases, were cranky that day, behind the leg, and wanting to refuse. So the rides got turned into schooling rides, and we went on with life. Too bad, so sad, get over it.

If that wasn't your rider's problem, then what WAS? I am so very far from you, I have no idea who [the rider] is or how she rides, but I'm guessing she's not a complete moron, or you wouldn't have put her on your horse to start with. Before you stomp off in a huff and bad mouth her riding (not training, since she's a catch rider) all over the internet, maybe ASK why she felt the need to correct his show-ring behavior that day?

AmmyByNature
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:27 AM
BTW I defended the trainer to the other trainers who were standing there and said something to me. I didn't even know what the course was or the strides as I have complete confidence in this rider to know that. It was one of them who told me it was a 6 not 5.

Must not have looked too bad (or scary or death-defying) if you couldn't even tell while watching that she left one out... She must have ridden it pretty well.

And I actually rethought my answer. I have had a trainer who left one out -- just not on my horse. She was riding a big sulky thing who carted his mom around the adults. He was getting to be a bastard about the ingate -- sucking back and kicking the fence -- so she took him in a schooling class and made him leave one out on both lines going away from the gate. It looked fine. It was a big horse with a huge stride and it helped immensely with the in gate issues.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:27 AM
Well said!

Trainers make decisions in the moment that will hopefully make all the future rides better. If she did 5 in a 6 I would wager there was a very good reason for it. If the horse wasn't in the trainer's program 24/7, and the only schooling opportunities she had on the horse were at shows, then that's where the schooling gets done. Obviously the warm-up round wasn't enough schooling and she was made to repeat it in the second round to make her point very clear to the horse. That's her job and that's why you have her ride your horse.

Obviously she did the real step in the 3rd round, as you mention she only did the 5 the first two times. So, clearly the schooling worked. Sounds to me like she was doing her JOB. But hey, what do I know?

Sometimes you take a horse in the ring and it is running through your hand and being a nutter, and you have to add and add some more. Sometimes it's lugging and behind your leg and acting gate sour and you have to kick it forward and growl and hang off its side to get the job done.

Unfortunately you don't get to pick the shows at which this happens. It would be really nice to be able to explain to your horse, "Hey, this show is a Big Deal, so if you would just go in and not show your ass that would be great. Thanks!"

Sadly, and this may be news to you, but... horses don't speak english. And what's worse, you can't reason with them :no: It's a terrible plight!

I didn't ask for your opinions on the decision MY trainer made. I asked what YOUR experiences have been?
But thanks for playing:no:

Eye in the Sky
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:28 AM
I had a trainer do this in a lesson and it nearly cost me and my horse our lives. I was the stupid one that trusted her to not kill me. Never again.:mad:

2bayboys
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:29 AM
If the rider is going to deliberately leave out a stride in a line, for whatever reason, does not the rider have an obligation to consult with the bills-paying, points-collecting owner on this decision? Or is the owner expected to just shut up and pay up for that costly choice?

Since the rider in question is so very competent and the horse in question is not a rank bug-eyed greenie, I would expect that the very competent BNR could make the correct amount of strides to save the class and then address whatever schooling issues with the owner in an appropriate setting.

To answer the OP, I have not had a trainer leave out a stride on course to get my horse to go forward.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:29 AM
Must not have looked too bad (or scary or death-defying) if you couldn't even tell while watching that she left one out... She must have ridden it pretty well.

You are right

dags
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:30 AM
I can think of plenty of reasons to gun it down the line, particularly the first line. If the horse was being a cow about the ingate or getting its motor running, you can believe I wouldn't fault a trainer for putting a spur into it and making sure darling horsie understood that forward is the only answer.


Ditto. Or it was landing in a heap. Or there's a horse eating monster at the far end of the ring.

It's really not. that. hard. to leave a stride out. My TB threatened to do it at least once at each show (and succeeded if I was not paying attention). All it is is an extended canter to two forward spots. It does not require setting the tail on fire, it requires adjustability (which is probably what she was trying to fix). Sorry, I just cannot fathom [the rider] deciding she's going to give up ribbons and leave out strides for the fun of it.

To add to the other ironies noted in this thread, I thought it was old skool cool to not concern one's self with the "numbers"? Getting a little fixated on that "6" here.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:32 AM
If it was a legitimate question, I'm afraid I don't understand why you've already deemed it a mistake and a bad idea?

Can you tell us why you didn't clarify with the trainer?

I did clarify with trainer. Mistake and bad idea? I think so, but I was wondering what othr peoples experiences with this have been.

AmmyByNature
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:33 AM
To add to the other ironies noted in this thread, I thought it was old skool cool to not concern one's self with the "numbers"? Getting a little fixated on that "6" here.

I was going to mention that earlier, when I ran the numbers to show that you only need about a 14.5' stride to leave one out in a six.

dropitlikeitshot
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:37 AM
I didn't ask for your opinions on the decision MY trainer made. I asked what YOUR experiences have been?
But thanks for playing:no:

I told you what my experiences have been. Sometimes you need to add, sometimes you need to leave out. Read for comprehension. You know, the part about not getting to pick the shows at which this sort of schooling takes place. :no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::n o::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no: :no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::n o::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no:

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:39 AM
I campaigned a couple of Pre Greens including AA shows. I never had my trainer/pro rider say they left strides out on purpose to teach the horse to go.

Actually they managed to get the horse going (or slowed down) in the proper number of strides in a AA show ring so it never really came up for discussion.

Schooling? Yeah. Clinic excercises to teach adjustability? Sure. At home? Of course.

AA show ring??? Never.

Thats a really, really expensive way (for the owner) to go about it. 3' may not be huge but that oxer in a AA Pre Green ring is big enough to catch a leg and flip off a long and weak spot after a leave out.

I know there is more to this then was shared but, really, none of the trainers and clinicians I ever worked with used leaving out a stride at anything over a speed bump to teach Green horses to go forward. Anywhere.

thanks for your experiences!

AmmyByNature
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:43 AM
I told you what my experiences have been. Sometimes you need to add, sometimes you need to leave out. Read for comprehension. You know, the part about not getting to pick the shows at which this sort of schooling takes place. :no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::n o::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no: :no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::n o::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no::no:





Originally Posted by findeight

thanks for your experiences!

Apparently she only wants experience that work for her theory.

If she wants your opinion, she'll give it to you :)

Trixie
Nov. 22, 2011, 11:01 AM
Since the rider in question is so very competent and the horse in question is not a rank bug-eyed greenie, I would expect that the very competent BNR could make the correct amount of strides to save the class and then address whatever schooling issues with the owner in an appropriate setting.

What is the appropriate setting if the rider is a catch rider who only rides the horse at shows?

dropitlikeitshot
Nov. 22, 2011, 11:05 AM
Apparently she only wants experience that work for her theory.

If she wants your opinion, she'll give it to you :)

Oh goodness me, I must have missed that part! Thanks for letting me know :yes: Next time I'll just ask her what my opinion should be and then parrot it back to her!

Kenike
Nov. 22, 2011, 11:07 AM
What is the appropriate setting if the rider is a catch rider who only rides the horse at shows?

The warm up ring, and the schooling round.

The rider must've had a reason (already stated), but if the owner isn't comfortable with it, then that's where it ends. Doesn't matter who the rider is.

It may not have been scary to watch, but I would not have been pleased, either.

2bayboys
Nov. 22, 2011, 11:12 AM
What is the appropriate setting if the rider is a catch rider who only rides the horse at shows?

Schooling division? Arranging to meet elsewhere to address whatever the training problem is? Why is the only answer that the rider had a good reason to deliberately leave out a stride in a pointed division at Zone finals? If the training problem was that severe, surely the owner should have been given the option to scratch the horse? Rider: "Sparky is just not ready to go in and win today, as he showed me when I had to leave out that stride in the warmup. Owner, what do you want to do?"

He then either goes in the class or doesn't. Or he gets appropriately schooled/prepped in another setting and no damage is done to his reputation or the owner's pocketbook.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 11:13 AM
Oh goodness me, I must have missed that part! Thanks for letting me know :yes: Next time I'll just ask her what my opinion should be and then parrot it back to her!

You missed the point, Findeight gave her experiences without commenting on the decision our trainer made good or bad, it really isn't necessary to second guess her decision by you.

doublesstable
Nov. 22, 2011, 11:47 AM
Harold gets it. The rider isn't the trainer, the rider is a catch rider and the "very experienced and been around for years" OP, who is responsible for making sure the horse is ready to show, is trying to throw that rider under the bus on COTH rather than talk to the rider about what needs to be done to make sure the horse is ready to show. That's not blindly following a trainer, that's showing your ass.

The OP should shut up and take her toys and go find a new very BNT, assuming they haven't all read this thread and talked to the rider in question.

I think this is a sad post unless you were there to see what has been happening.. how do you know the horse hasn't been with the rider or the horse wasn't prepared....?

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 11:51 AM
Schooling division? Arranging to meet elsewhere to address whatever the training problem is? Why is the only answer that the rider had a good reason to deliberately leave out a stride in a pointed division at Zone finals? If the training problem was that severe, surely the owner should have been given the option to scratch the horse? Rider: "Sparky is just not ready to go in and win today, as he showed me when I had to leave out that stride in the warmup. Owner, what do you want to do?"

He then either goes in the class or doesn't. Or he gets appropriately schooled/prepped in another setting and no damage is done to his reputation or the owner's pocketbook.

2bayboys BTW your youtube video is way too cute!! LOVE your horse. You ride nice too!
You are absolutely right, I really wasn't as upset about the zone finals part as much as I was about the leave out part. I really did just want to know what others had experienced, as this finals was done and over with. I would have been fine with scratching.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 11:55 AM
I think this is a sad post unless you were there to see what has been happening.. how do you know the horse hasn't been with the rider or the horse wasn't prepared....?

Again you are right, I wasn't trying to discuss the decision my trainer made, I wanted others experiences to compare.

Bottom line with these responses being so widely different, at least we know people are passionate about the horses and their training.;)

doublesstable
Nov. 22, 2011, 12:04 PM
Before you stomp off in a huff and bad mouth her riding (not training, since she's a catch rider) all over the internet, maybe ASK why she felt the need to correct his show-ring behavior that day?

What is going on here? I don't think the OP is out of line for asking... Some posters are being harsh on the OP without all the facts and many, many assumptions. She didn't stomp off in a huff. I got the original post idea and answered NO and NO!


Clients want to leave everything to trainers with a big blank check and then the second the trainer makes a training call all of a sudden they want to second guess everything and say it's really all too expensive for this trainer to be making training calls willy nilly. Then they want to be consulted. Then they want right of first refusal on every half halt.

Okay ??? Without trying to totally derail this thread any further; so you don't have a say in anything just because you paid someone? If that's how my trainers felt I would not ride with them... And I would have to disagree with your logic. The OP didn't say ANYTHING about the money that I read. It was simply a question of leaving strides out.... I think the OP has been quiet gracious for the bombs that are being thrown her way.

allintexas
Nov. 22, 2011, 12:06 PM
to the original questions:

No and no

Instant Karma
Nov. 22, 2011, 12:19 PM
I don't think it's wrong to ask a fairly general question about the rest of our experiences. Some people on this thread make it sound like the members of COTH are a bunch of morons... but yet, in so many threads it is noted that there are some pretty prominent riders, owners and trainers that read and post here.

OP just wanted opinions from the fairly well educated group of horse people here... my opinion is that if the trainer only meets the horse at shows and the issue was not fixed in schooling, I would trust that she was making a decision that made sense for her and the horse if she insisted on making a correction in the show ring. Obviously if a successful rider and trainer that the OP respects, and from what I glean has ridden this horse well at multiple shows, is willing to make a decision that pretty much eliminates any chance of the horse pinning... I would think that they have a very legit reason for it. Leaving out a stride is strange, and I would also question it, but at the same time if it was so well ridden that the OP didn't notice that she left one out, it certainly wasn't a harrowing, grab your rosary beads kind of ride. Plus not everything can be corrected in the schooling ring, especially if it's a habit that rears it's ugly head only in the show setting, when the horse is isolated in the show ring by itself.

At the same time however, I don't think it's appropriate for everyone to pile on the OP. She was asking for experiences and I was actually curious about the responses once I read the main post! The OP didn't name the trainer involved, and there are a bunch of experienced folks here, so what is wrong with asking if anyone has witnessed/had this happen in the show ring? It's a good question I think:) The people who responded are the ones who changed the direction of the thread into a personal attack.

Alter Not Do This
Nov. 22, 2011, 12:21 PM
I think this is a sad post unless you were there to see what has been happening.. how do you know the horse hasn't been with the rider or the horse wasn't prepared....?

Horse shows are a very small world, aren't they? The internet makes it even smaller.

doublesstable
Nov. 22, 2011, 12:30 PM
Horse shows are a very small world, aren't they? The internet makes it even smaller.


I would then assume by your above post you know the entire situation; but since you are using an alter, I wouldn't really know what to think about that.

The OP has many photos of her horses so she isn't trying to hide anything.. I just thought she was asking some questions. :)

Neely
Nov. 22, 2011, 12:34 PM
Sounds dangerous, especially for a pre-green horse.

Agreed 100%

Adding a stride in a warm up for various reasons is one thing, but in the Pre-Green division, the horses really should be able to do the numbers. I don't think taking a stride out is ever appropriate. It is dangerous, and even the greenest, biggest strided horse should be able jump a strait line without taking out, especially in a rated division. The "go button" should not be installed in the show ring (schooling ring or at home is the appropriate place for that), and for that matter I don't see how taking out a stride teaches the horse anything. Go forward first, get the pace you need for said line, then complete the line. Green horses need to be taught to think in between the jumps, not run and fly off the ground in such a manner.

SlamDunk
Nov. 22, 2011, 01:31 PM
Now I mostly ride jumpers, but it just seems to me that a lot of you are too focused on the fact that taking out a stride but the horse out of contention for ribbons. For example if this was a young jumper in the ring, as the owner, I wouldnt be angry if the trainer decided to to take big tracks because the horse was impressed, or do a more forward option in a line because they were sticky over the overs. I wouldn't necessarily expect her to yell out the ring, Sorry guess we aren't going for broke in the jump off today. Even though such decisions could take you out of contention for a jump off.

Now that doesn't mean that this was the right decision, the effect that is has on the horse determines whether or not it was correct (and you did say he seemed nervous) so maybe it wasn't. I just disagree with the idea that training should never happen in the show ring. Not everything can be corrected in the show ring, and horses, especially young ones, can be unpredictable. I'd rather have a rider that adjusted their ride to what was underneath them in the moment, then someone who blithely sticks to a set plan regardless of what they feel the horse needs.

dropitlikeitshot
Nov. 22, 2011, 01:39 PM
Now I mostly ride jumpers, but it just seems to me that a lot of you are too focused on the fact that taking out a stride but the horse out of contention for ribbons. For example if this was a young jumper in the ring, as the owner, I wouldnt be angry if the trainer decided to to take big tracks because the horse was impressed, or do a more forward option in a line because they were sticky over the overs. I wouldn't necessarily expect her to yell out the ring, Sorry guess we aren't going for broke in the jump off today. Even though such decisions could take you out of contention for a jump off.

Now that doesn't mean that this was the right decision, the effect that is has on the horse determines whether or not it was correct (and you did say he seemed nervous) so maybe it wasn't. I just disagree with the idea that training should never happen in the show ring. Not everything can be corrected in the show ring, and horses, especially young ones, can be unpredictable. I'd rather have a rider that adjusted their ride to what was underneath them in the moment, then someone who blithely sticks to a set plan regardless of what they feel the horse needs.

Now, now Slam Dunk, we aren't supposed to discuss the trainer's decision or her ride. We can only answer the questions posted in the original post! Someone wants to take a tally so that they can sit at home and self-righteously proclaim, "I TOLD you it wasn't the right thing to do!"

Jasmine
Nov. 22, 2011, 01:48 PM
[QUOTE=doublesstable;5974965]What is going on here? I don't think the OP is out of line for asking... Some posters are being harsh on the OP without all the facts and many, many assumptions. She didn't stomp off in a huff. I got the original post idea and answered NO and NO!



She stomped off in a huff in the figurative. People know who she is, know her horses, and know the rider. Instead of just asking rider why she thought this was OK, and keeping it a rather private discussion, she felt the need to whine about it on a public forum. I could probably do something quite similar without it turning into a trainwreck, but no one really knows who I am. Might not be fair, but that's the price you pay when you're "known."

dags
Nov. 22, 2011, 02:17 PM
Now I mostly ride jumpers, but it just seems to me that a lot of you are too focused on the fact that taking out a stride but the horse out of contention for ribbons.

Ready for that Like button install :D

I just think, OP, that the question is a little ambiguous if you already had in mind what you wanted our answers to be.

If we were only supposed to answer the question you posed, then the thread would go like this:

Yes

No

No

No

Yes

(probably 16 more Nos)

But most people don't pull up WYSIWYG editors just to type up 3 letters. Oh no, if we're going to click that take-me-elsewhere-link, we're going to put our $.02 in :D

Which led to ambiguity #2, what should those $.02 be about? Is the issue with the training technique, or with the loss of points & ribbons? For if it is the loss of points & ribbons that troubles you, the question would have been clearer if stated, "Have you ever had a trainer ruin a good round by schooling your horse in the show ring?", but as it is, it appears to disagree with a training tactic.

So, to be fair all around, it wasn't really clear how we were supposed to back up our "Yes" or "No" answer, and apparently some of us interpreted the question incorrectly. I, for one, was a little surprised to see so many taken aback by the concept of leaving out a step in a 6 stride line... which to me is no more severe that choosing to add or circle... but we seem to have given up on the concept of forward in the hunters...

Of course, that's probably for another thread ;)

doublesstable
Nov. 22, 2011, 02:19 PM
She stomped off in a huff in the figurative. People know who she is, know her horses, and know the rider. Instead of just asking rider why she thought this was OK, and keeping it a rather private discussion, she felt the need to whine about it on a public forum. I could probably do something quite similar without it turning into a trainwreck, but no one really knows who I am. Might not be fair, but that's the price you pay when you're "known."


:lol: Okay I didn't get that impression when reading her post - figuratively.. :)

doublesstable
Nov. 22, 2011, 02:24 PM
Now I mostly ride jumpers, but it just seems to me that a lot of you are too focused on the fact that taking out a stride but the horse out of contention for ribbons.

I would think if a young jumper were entered in a money class; one would be concerned if the pro rider drove the horse to the base and had a rail.....

....... it is Hunters and you are to ride it as such...... like the fact or not that the proper stride has something to do with it. It may or may not be about the ribbon, but clearly the asked training method was in question and rightfuly so.

doublesstable
Nov. 22, 2011, 02:25 PM
double post....

anseo
Nov. 22, 2011, 02:49 PM
SSF, you have said repeatedly that you asked the rider why she made the choices she did and got an answer. What exactly did she say, and why did you disagree with it?

supernatural
Nov. 22, 2011, 02:52 PM
No...I would not be happy having to pay them for these trips. Surely they hacked around once and jumped a jump before they went in the ring. If they didn't think the horse was ready...don't show. I wasn't there...don't know...but when I'm paying for a top professional I do expect the best ride that can be given for those 2 minutes per round the horse is in the ring. Unless the horse is being a total Asshat leaving out strides is NOT acceptable. I don't care whether it's a catch ride or not. Some of the best catchriders who ride/rode in the hunters could/would get on anything and do the best they could with whatever horse they had for those trips. I've had them say.."I think I'll add a stride in the first warm-up just to keep him quiet and get him settled. Fine by me....but leaving out strides...no way.

Jasmine
Nov. 22, 2011, 03:15 PM
But maybe that rider DID think that leaving a stride out was the best ride she could have given that particular horse that day. We only have one observer's side of the story. We don't know what input she was getting from the horse.

AmmyByNature
Nov. 22, 2011, 03:22 PM
I've had them say.."I think I'll add a stride in the first warm-up just to keep him quiet and get him settled. Fine by me....but leaving out strides...no way.

The OP has stated that the line was ridden in such a way that she herself didn't even know that a stride had been left out until another trainer on the rail told her.

So how is "I'll add a stride to settle him down" really so different from "I'll drop a stride to wake him up" in this situation? Both will keep you out of the ribbons.

And yes -- I acknowledge that dropping a stride can be dangerous, however, I also acknowledge that dropping a stride accidentally and dropping one on purpose are very different things.

And no, I don't know why she did it in two classes, but there may have been a reason of which we with our third-hand knowledge are not aware.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 04:32 PM
SSF, you have said repeatedly that you asked the rider why she made the choices she did and got an answer. What exactly did she say, and why did you disagree with it?

She said she wanted the horse to go forward, I respect her and riding abilities, I didn't understand using that technique to get a horse forward, thats WHY I was asking you guys if you had.

Really that was it.

Some of you had gone off saying I was mad and upset and in a huff about it. Disappointed was more like it, it was the finals, she had never left out a stride before, I didn't understand why she would.

Why I didn't agree with it was because it didn't do what she wanted, the horse was nervous the next day and very spooky the first 2 trips, then settle in nicely for a ribboned trip. Bottom line its not an approach I have been familar with hense the reason for the thread.

My first concern was and is our horse and rider safety.

BTW I didn't realize I was known by so many, I should have posted using an alter, if there is a next time I will...

alto
Nov. 22, 2011, 04:53 PM
Why I didn't agree with it was because it didn't do what she wanted, the horse was nervous the next day and very spooky the first 2 trips, then settle in nicely for a ribboned trip. Bottom line its not an approach I have been familar with hense the reason for the thread.


What did the rider do that caused the horse to be nervous the next day :confused:
in another post you mentioned not noticing the missed stride so I'd assumed from that, the ride looked good ...

Ammy Owner
Nov. 22, 2011, 04:59 PM
If the rider is going to deliberately leave out a stride in a line, for whatever reason, does not the rider have an obligation to consult with the bills-paying, points-collecting owner on this decision? Or is the owner expected to just shut up and pay up for that costly choice?

Since the rider in question is so very competent and the horse in question is not a rank bug-eyed greenie, I would expect that the very competent BNR could make the correct amount of strides to save the class and then address whatever schooling issues with the owner in an appropriate setting.

To answer the OP, I have not had a trainer leave out a stride on course to get my horse to go forward.

THIS.

Harold
Nov. 22, 2011, 05:00 PM
My first concern was and is our horse and rider safety.

timewill...

Well, thats not true. Or maybe you would be more honest here about your horse's behavior and wouldnthave been badmouthing the rider left,right, and center afterwards at the show. Come on, darlin. There are plenty of people here who first hand know the truth. Shame on you...that family was really good to you, dont punish them for it.

enjoytheride
Nov. 22, 2011, 05:05 PM
As an eventer I have had lessons plenty of times when I am required to add or subtract strides down the same line to work on flexibility in my horse. I have never almost died and I am a terrible rider.

I am not sure how the OP has never heard of hustling a horse down a line to get it more forward. I am also not sure what the big deal is if nobody that wasn't counting noticed. If nobody noticed then safety really wasn't a concern. I've seen stride leaving out hail marys that induce gasps but it doesn't sound like one of those. I didn't think that judges actually counted, more looked for a way of going.

MHM
Nov. 22, 2011, 05:09 PM
Surely they hacked around once and jumped a jump before they went in the ring. If they didn't think the horse was ready...don't show.

In my own personal experience, horses can act one way in the schooling area, then walk in the show ring and act a different way. More forward, more backed off, more tense, more spooky, etc. Because they're horses, not machines.

That's why a good rider can make a valid decision in the show ring to do something that was not part of the original plan, whether or not the reason is obvious to anyone who is not on the horse's back at that moment. Add, leave out, circle, halt, whatever.

It would be great if horses would agree to always go the same way in the schooling area and in the show ring, especially at important shows. In my own personal experience, horses don't always do that.

CBoylen
Nov. 22, 2011, 05:11 PM
I don't know of any shows that let you scratch and give you your money back once the class has started. So, if there was a problem at that point that needed fixing, the waste of money would be to have paid for the horse to go to the horse show and not show. Then you've wasted your money AND you did nothing to fix your issue. So, no, I have no problem with show ring rides becoming training rides as needed, because at that point you've reached the point of no return, money-wise. And I can think of a few different scenarios during which I'd be more concerned with getting from point A to point B than worrying about how many strides it took between them. If the leave-out was not outstandingly noticeable to watch, it probably didn't require too much deviation in the ride.

Trixie
Nov. 22, 2011, 05:15 PM
My first concern was and is our horse and rider safety.

That's not really what it sounds like, especially since you say quite clearly that you didn't actually even notice until someone told you.


"I didn't even know what the course was or the strides as I have complete confidence in this rider to know that. It was one of them who told me it was a 6 not 5"

Lengthening but not to the point of rushing shouldn't make a horse nervous unless there is another issue. If they were rushing, wouldn't you have noticed?


In my own personal experience, horses can act one way in the schooling area, then walk in the show ring and act a different way. More forward, more backed off, more spooky, etc. Because they're horses, not machines.

That's why a good rider can make a valid decision in the show ring to do something that was not part of the original plan, whether or not the reason is obvious to anyone who is not on the horse's back at that moment. Add, leave out, circle, halt, whatever.

It would be great if horses would agree to always go the same way in the schooling area and in the show ring, especially at important shows. In my own personal experience, horses don't always do that.


This exactly. Sometimes the horse you walk into the ring with is not the horse you had in the schooling ring, no matter how much schooling you did or how good the rider.

Personally, I trust my trainer to recognize and address that.


I didn't think that judges actually counted, more looked for a way of going.

FWIW, they do count - it's another way of gauging the ideal step and pace.

Kristy-nnn
Nov. 22, 2011, 05:31 PM
I'm a little confused by the people stating that the trainer should have consulted with her first. To me, a good rider will ride the horse that is under them at THAT moment and ride the course at THAT moment. She might not have planned to go in and take out the stride, but if she felt the horse was a little laggy, and she asked him to smoothly lengthen his gait to get him more forward, I don't see a problem. If she just booted the horse when she landed off the first jump and literally galloped down the line, causing the horse to become unbalanced, then I would be concerned, but it does not sound like she did.

Sometimes things happen in the ring that you don't go in expecting. I'm guessing she was hoping that when she rode into that line for the second time she would have the horse she wanted from schooling in the first trip, but upon riding the course, realized she didn't. In that case, I'd rather see her sacrifice 1 round in hopes of improving all the rounds after, than see her ride a sticky horse around all the courses, who is jumping less than stellar because he is behind her leg.

I'm also very confused as to how she would be embarassing herself/the owner in front of everyone at the show? She made a choice to school, and she did it smoothly. I could only see it being embarassing if she got sloppy or out of control. I'm sure she looked perfectly competent in adjusting your horse's stride, and I doubt that one tiny school was enough to make your horse look bad either.

ALLIGORY
Nov. 22, 2011, 06:15 PM
I don't know of any shows that let you scratch and give you your money back once the class has started. So, if there was a problem at that point that needed fixing, the waste of money would be to have paid for the horse to go to the horse show and not show. Then you've wasted your money AND you did nothing to fix your issue. So, no, I have no problem with show ring rides becoming training rides as needed, because at that point you've reached the point of no return, money-wise. And I can think of a few different scenarios during which I'd be more concerned with getting from point A to point B than worrying about how many strides it took between them. If the leave-out was not outstandingly noticeable to watch, it probably didn't require too much deviation in the ride.
This is true and FWIW I've left out a stride while showing a client's horse. It was a long bending line, depending on the track it was 8,9 or 10 with most riders putting in a 9. I chose to ride up in 8 since the horse was unacustomed to galloping on the grass. It served the purpose and allowed the A/O owner to ride a bit of a spooky horse around to very good ribbons. It seems very petty to dismiss a trainer who has proven to ride and show with great results with a few rounds that displeased you.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 08:26 PM
What did the rider do that caused the horse to be nervous the next day :confused:
in another post you mentioned not noticing the missed stride so I'd assumed from that, the ride looked good ...

The horse was nervous from running down the line, he had never been asked to go with such a long stride before, he is only a pregreen horse.
It wasn't that I missed the fact he left out a stride, it was that is didn't look horrible. It still was not the correct thing to do, in my opinon. Nor would I ever expect Tommy Serio to do that, surely I've never know him to leave out a stride for schooling purposes. Have you Cboylen?

CBoylen
Nov. 22, 2011, 08:39 PM
Nor would I ever expect Tommy Serio to do that, surely I've never know him to leave out a stride for schooling purposes. Have you Cboylen?
I can't comment on that question in a manner appropriate for a public forum. Which is a shame, because you have no idea how many inappropriate responses I'm trying to suppress.

Summit Springs Farm
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:03 PM
Well, thats not true. Or maybe you would be more honest here about your horse's behavior and wouldnthave been badmouthing the rider left,right, and center afterwards at the show. Come on, darlin. There are plenty of people here who first hand know the truth. Shame on you...that family was really good to you, dont punish them for it.

I have not bad mouthed the trainer...why would you say that and turn this into a trainer bashing thread?

Trixie
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:47 PM
Perhaps it was all the threads naming this trainer as your rider, followed up by this one about terrible "mistakes" by the trainer riding your horse?

Monica67
Nov. 23, 2011, 06:01 AM
It seems very petty to dismiss a trainer who has proven to ride and show with great results with a few rounds that displeased you.


Ding, ding, ding, we have a winner!!!!!

After this fiasco, good luck finding another trainer. Bet it's going to cost you.

Moderator 3
Nov. 23, 2011, 10:04 AM
Folks, we're going to shut this one down because it's gotten off the tracks a bit. Feel free to debate any of the offshoot topics brought up in separate threads if you'd like.

Mod 3