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View Full Version : Hey y'all, the USEF Jumping Open Forum is now archived online!



War Admiral
Nov. 18, 2011, 07:51 PM
The USEF Jumping Open Forum is now online at the USEF Network. I'm watching it now and am enthralled. It's worth the watch just for GM, but stay on after that and you'll see so many of the issues we talk about on here being discussed. Really - watch it!!!!

And thanks so much to the USEF folks for all the hard work and effort that went into making it available to us smurfs and trailer-trash ammies in our rubber boots and plastic helmets. :cool: :D:lol: :yes:

Brydelle Farm
Nov. 18, 2011, 08:09 PM
LIKE

War Admiral
Nov. 19, 2011, 05:35 AM
Anyone have any comments about what was said?

I think I was struck by the fact that so many of the "elite" riders/owners/trainers are seeing the same problems that we see.

They talked about doing away w/ the mileage rule.

They talked about an "optimum time" for the puddle jumpers to encourage better riding.

They talked (well, GM did) about bringing back the American TB.

They talked about it being too expensive to develop a young horse over here.

They talked a LOT about the fact that the shows are too expensive. Lauren Hough's statement was a real eye-opener: I had NO idea that she could campaign 3 horses for 5 weeks in Europe for what it cost here to bring 1 horse and do 3 classes at the NHS.

So I guess the question I'm left with is this: if we ALL see what the problems are and everyone - from trailer trash ammies to Olympians - is identifying the same issues... how do we get them fixed?

I think it's great that USEF is providing a forum for discussion.

Dewey
Nov. 19, 2011, 08:40 AM
I am listening to GM now and what has struck me most so far is his emphasis on the teaching of false values in the hunter-jumper world.

I also noted his complaints about the way hunters are shown.

Dewey
Nov. 19, 2011, 09:05 AM
They talked (well, GM did) about bringing back the American TB.

Murray Kessler stressed this as well.

Brydelle Farm
Nov. 19, 2011, 09:43 AM
They talked a LOT about the fact that the shows are too expensive. Lauren Hough's statement was a real eye-opener: I had NO idea that she could campaign 3 horses for 5 weeks in Europe for what it cost here to bring 1 horse and do 3 classes at the NHS.

It was also pointed out that this ONLY applies to elite riders/horses, as the organizers want the them to participate, so they get a discount. But for someone that isn't a Lauren Hough, one of those shows could be as much as 200k to participate in.

Lord Helpus
Nov. 19, 2011, 09:45 AM
Link please! I have been over to USEF.org and I cannot find anything that resembles a Jumping Open Forum.

Dewey
Nov. 19, 2011, 09:47 AM
http://www.usefnetwork.com/

Open forum is on the right.

Ruby G. Weber
Nov. 19, 2011, 10:50 AM
My feed says Jumper Forum Part 1. There is no comment from LH nor anything beyond Peter Leone??? Is there a Part 2?

Dewey
Nov. 19, 2011, 10:55 AM
Yes. Above the links on the right you'll see some horizontal links. Click on "Open Forum." Parts 1, 2, and 3 will pop up. It took me awhile to find parts 2 and 3 as well. I am listening to part 3 now.

Dewey
Nov. 19, 2011, 12:40 PM
Was intrigued by Katie Prudent's comment near the end that jumpers need to split off from the hunters and stop trying to change them. She said the hunters have gone too far in their own direction--they have their own way of doing things and no longer are part of the pipeline for jumper riders. She said what they do is "not a sport" while show jumping is a sport.

War Admiral
Nov. 19, 2011, 06:54 PM
Yeah, McClain said that as well - "hunters is not a sport, it's a service industry" - I can *kind of* see his point.

Plumcreek
Nov. 19, 2011, 07:48 PM
They talked (well, GM did) about bringing back the American TB.


In general, the racing 'American TB' is no longer bred for soundness or disposition, just speed. Few are breeding sport TBs. Where is he going to get these athletic, sound, trainable modern American TBs?

I really enjoyed the forum, caught the last hour live. Other disciplines have had similar, NOT webcast. Thanks USEFNetwork!

Tha Ridge
Nov. 19, 2011, 09:15 PM
In general, the racing 'American TB' is no longer bred for soundness or disposition, just speed. Few are breeding sport TBs. Where is he going to get these athletic, sound, trainable modern American TBs?

Tell that to the Maddens, who have been purchasing yearlings from Thoroughbred auctions from the past several years to bring along as jumpers.

MHM
Nov. 19, 2011, 09:46 PM
Tell that to the Maddens, who have been purchasing yearlings from Thoroughbred auctions from the past several years to bring along as jumpers.

I didn't know that.

How's that been working out for them? Are any of the Thoroughbreds showing yet?

Tha Ridge
Nov. 19, 2011, 10:27 PM
I didn't know that.

How's that been working out for them? Are any of the Thoroughbreds showing yet?

I saw it on the John Madden Sales Facebook page, which is updated pretty regularly. Lots of fun photos from around the farm of their babies, dogs, etc.

I think their oldest Thoroughbred is just 4 and just starting over fences, but they have a couple of 2-year-olds that they've begun free jumping. Here's the photo album: http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.204250109589081.59401.128259900521436

If you scroll down a bit on their wall, they talk about buying the babies at auction. Keeneland, I think.

MHM
Nov. 19, 2011, 10:37 PM
^ Interesting- thanks!

War Admiral
Nov. 20, 2011, 07:35 AM
Where is he going to get these athletic, sound, trainable modern American TBs?

He addressed that issue, too. You need to go back and watch the first hour at some point. ;)

PineTreeFarm
Nov. 20, 2011, 10:09 AM
In general, the racing 'American TB' is no longer bred for soundness or disposition, just speed. Few are breeding sport TBs. Where is he going to get these athletic, sound, trainable modern American TBs?



The same place all the TB's that are winning in Childrens Hunters and Adult Hunters come from. LOL
Because of the way the USEF Hunter points are structured in the Professional divisions ( 1 point per dollar won and the Hunter Derbies count toward points) the TB's who continue to sire winning horses at the zone level are far towards the bottom of the sires list. Zone winners contribute maybe 1000 points toward a stallions credit for offspring, a winning derby horse can contribute 20X as many points to a sire's total points.

The problem TB's have is they don't come 'ready to go' like the European Imports. And many 'trainers' don't train starting from teaching the horse to jump. Instead they focus on getting failed European Jumpers to do Hunters. It produces a 'ready to show' horse quicker and yields a higher return because many of imports can start their careers in the 3'6" divisions due to the training they already have.

There are also Hunter Trainers who buy from the auctions. It isn't that uncommon. IHF Champion at Regional and Finals is a TB.

And many more opportunities for TB's coming next year.
TB Celebration classes continue
New JC showing program for TB's
HITS Ocala has a TB Hunter Division

Besides being discussed at the USEF jumping Forum USHJA has a featured Seminar at their convention about TB's in sport.

Perhaps USHJA will have a TB Stirrup Cup award?

An American TB stallion was just approved by GOV and by the ATA.

Tha Ridge
Nov. 20, 2011, 10:24 AM
An American TB stallion was just approved by GOV and by the ATA.

That's exciting; who was it?

Lord Helpus
Nov. 20, 2011, 11:28 AM
I cannot disagree with anthing these people are saying, because I am not an elite rider and cannot look at the jumper world from their perspective.

By the same token, it seems to me that they have forgotten how the "real" world works.

If the jumpers and hunters split off, then how are trainers supposed to make money? Very few trainers can make a go of it with just one or the other as customers. Add in the big eq. discipline and the quandry gets bigger.

Perhaps the hunter world is no longer the pipeline to the grand prix jumpers, but it is the pipeline to the junior jumpers and the big. eq. classes. Kids are not going to commit to jumpers at age 12 when they are moving from a med. pony to a large and have to decide whether to get a hunter or a jumper pony.

And trainers need to keep those customers who can afford hunters and jumpers and big eq horses. They are not about to send such cash cows off to specialists who can take them up through the jumper ranks faster.

To say nothing of 95% of the kids who will not want to leave the barns and the friends they have ridden with all their lives, just to ride jumpers, when they can stay where they are and still ride jumpers.

These elite riders are living in a rarified world that doesn't exist in the reality of the American system. They need to come back down to earth and understand that the hunter and big eq worlds got them to the top and it is unrealistic to expect the entire "feeder system" to change.

Reed Kessler is an anachronism. Not an example.

THEY can show so cheaply in Europe because their costs are subsidized. But is it really that cheap for the average Jose or Pierre?

PineTreeFarm
Nov. 20, 2011, 11:37 AM
That's exciting; who was it?

Sea Accounts !!

kenyarider
Nov. 20, 2011, 11:43 AM
In regards to the comment that the shows in Europe are more expensive if you are not Lauren Hough, it was not that way in the UK. I showed in rated shows there and all the classes were much cheaper than here and since the shows are all close, I could go home each day and not incur stall fees. Also there was no expectation that I have an army of staff, it was more like eventing in that way. That was in 1998 so it may have changed but it was a shock to come here and pay so much, even in 1999.

PineTreeFarm
Nov. 20, 2011, 11:49 AM
If the jumpers and hunters split off, then how are trainers supposed to make money? Very few trainers can make a go of it with just one or the other as customers. Add in the big eq. discipline and the quandry gets bigger.

Perhaps the hunter world is no longer the pipeline to the grand prix jumpers, but it is the pipeline to the junior jumpers and the big. eq. classes. Kids are not going to commit to jumpers at age 12 when they are moving from a med. pony to a large and have to decide whether to get a hunter or a jumper pony.



At the elite level some of the competitors only want to show. Some don't want to train riders. That point was brought up by the Riders Group. They want an opportunity for showing to be self supporting by itself.
I don't think this is about a kid deciding to make a lifetime choice of discipline. It's more about what should happen at the highest levels of show jumping and how to ensure the US remains competitive in Show Jumping.
If that's the problem to be addressed the solution may have to be a split. But that split might just come at the GP levels.

I disagree that Hunters continue to be a pipeline to Junior Jumpers. For many Hunters are the end product. Not as much cross over as there was many, many years ago.

But I do agree with the position that Hunters have become something far removed from it's origins.

Plumcreek
Nov. 20, 2011, 11:49 AM
OK, Uncle. I will eagerly await seeing all these racing-bred TB horses in the upper level show rings.

I am wondering why the WB-TB cross is not more under discussion. Seems like a good option. I have done the pure racehorse-bred show hunter prospect route, and (IMHO) most people do not have the patience required, and will not take that amount of time.

Ruby G. Weber
Nov. 20, 2011, 02:21 PM
What I think I heard was the elite jumper riders promoting the idea of the jumper discipline being under one umbrella, not two as I believe it is presently. It is my understanding that the High Performance riders are represented by USEF who must represent them according to IOC mandate. The National jumpers fall under the USHJA. I think they are asking for continuity in governance of the jumper discipline.

I totally agree with Katie. With few exceptions Hunters no longer pave the way to the jumper ring. The current trend of comotose, robotic hunters does very little in the way of teaching riders to RIDE.

These are huge issues with no easy solutions and I think those who call for change should be careful not to shoot themselves in the foot.

BTW Alan Balch was brilliant regarding the mileage rule.

Starda01
Nov. 20, 2011, 06:50 PM
I felt like grabbing the microphone and saying, "listen, this is how it is for the vast majority out here!"

Not every little girl, or adult rerider is going to make the big leagues. Not every child that starts ballet or gymnastics will be a star either. BUT, maybe they will have instilled the appreciation of the sport. Not every child that plays basketball has what it takes to get to the NBA. But its from those ranks that that sport draws its audience. What's the difference? Ballet, gymnastics, basketball, football, and baseball are all very accessible sports. therefore they groom an audience from very young. And what are the sports that are most broadcast today.

Horse sport have always been elite. I don't know, should they remain so out of reach?

Equestrian sports are so different from the sports I mentioned, in that you have 2 beings, the horse and rider, who must work together. That adds so much more to it.

I was talking to a non-horsey friend the other day, and even she totally got what was so compelling about Equestrian sports. Its the beauty and artistry of animal and human working in concert. She has a background in ballet.

To make it profitable there needs to be an audience. I got to the local shows here, and its only the participants. There are larger crowds at WEF, but even there, its a specialised audience.

IMHO, an audience needs to be cultivated. The public needs to be educated and enthralled. Maybe the show world needs to take a page from the racing world in the promotion department. If we have an audience, it will help the show promoters bottom line and that will help the industry as a whole.

LeeB10
Nov. 21, 2011, 05:54 PM
Like I said on the original forum thread. There are ways to get outside sponsorship and an audience. It is done with well planned event type GP and World Cup Finals. The Sacramento International Horse Show is one such event. Tickets were sold, VIP seating, dinner served, drinks, a band, the riders signed autographs and people showed up. A lot of people showed up - it was sold out. The Sacramento International Horse Show World Cup Week is a JUMPER only show. No hunters, no equitation and yet the stands were full of people watching. The reason those riders want a split is because they feel that the hunters and eq can't do this, it is not a sport like that.