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Mako
Nov. 18, 2011, 05:20 PM
I was looking at a website that had horses for sale and in the pictures they were jumping the horses in Draw Reins

There were also flat pictures where they also had draw reins on.

I don't know about you but I was disturbed and completely disagree with this practice/training, let alone putting these pictures up as sale pictures and marketing the horse as a jumper and for $30k

Anyone run across this before?

supaflyskye
Nov. 18, 2011, 05:31 PM
I would never jump a horse in draw reins.
See here (http://pegasusphotography.smugmug.com/FoxLeaAugustSchoolingShow/497/18695248_jrssjr#1446000429_9ZzpLwQ-A-LB). That just makes me shudder. Awful. and yes, it was at a show.

If you're trying to sell a horse you might want to advertise that the horse can actually go in a nice looking frame w/o being forcibly tied into it w/ draw reins. That's ridiculous.

LoveJubal
Nov. 18, 2011, 05:47 PM
I would never jump a horse in draw reins.
See here (http://pegasusphotography.smugmug.com/FoxLeaAugustSchoolingShow/497/18695248_jrssjr#1446000429_9ZzpLwQ-A-LB).

I like Picture 5 - maybe that is the punishment the rider gets for using the draw reins.

I have always been told not to jump in draw reins, a chambon, a de Gogue, etc. etc. A martingale was about it - NO contraptions.

RomeosGirl
Nov. 18, 2011, 05:48 PM
I would never jump a horse in draw reins.
See here (http://pegasusphotography.smugmug.com/FoxLeaAugustSchoolingShow/497/18695248_jrssjr#1446000429_9ZzpLwQ-A-LB). That just makes me shudder. Awful. and yes, it was at a show.

If you're trying to sell a horse you might want to advertise that the horse can actually go in a nice looking frame w/o being forcibly tied into it w/ draw reins. That's ridiculous.

Ok, the scarier part of that link is if you click on the next photo (guess you see what happens as a result:no:)

AmmyByNature
Nov. 18, 2011, 05:52 PM
Perhaps these three threads (out of the 8 pages that come up when you search for "jumping + draw + reins") will help. Those are just three threads with titles nearly identical to your own.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300022&highlight=jumping+draw+reins

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298563&highlight=jumping+draw+reins

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291775&highlight=jumping+draw+reins

Draw reins don't ruin a horse, although a person using them badly certainly can. As can a person using pretty much ANYTHING badly.

I personally agree with CBoylen's assessment. I have jumped horses in draw reins and have seen my horses jumped by my pro in draw reins. Attached to a breastplate or run through the neck strap of a martingale, due to personal preference.

On a slightly different topic, why the hatred of draw reins when people all seem to love side reins? You know what I can do with draw reins? Loosen them in half a second. Adjust them depending on need. Not really the story with side reins. Why do draw reins get so vilified when everyone and their mother is telling people to longe in side reins?

baysngreys
Nov. 18, 2011, 05:53 PM
Never!

A trainer, at a barn I previously rode at, was jumping in draw reins. The horse put his foot thru the reins when he landed, freaked, the trainer came off and was kicked in the face by the horse trying to get his legs free. Horrific accident.

sarcam02
Nov. 18, 2011, 05:53 PM
Gross - and not needed if you know how to use hard and leg.

Losgelassenheit
Nov. 18, 2011, 05:56 PM
Yes, sadly I come across it far to often. It disgusts me that people these days seem to think that slapping some gadget on a horse is the answer to all problems, especially when most don't even have the knowledge of what purpose it serves or how to properly use whatever it is. The only thing worse is when they DO know, but don't care.

To think of using such pictures for marketing is just beyond me.

supafly, that pic has me cringing! :no:

ETA:
On a slightly different topic, why the hatred of draw reins when people all seem to love side reins? You know what I can do with draw reins? Loosen them in half a second. Adjust them depending on need. Not really the story with side reins. Why do draw reins get so vilified when everyone and their mother is telling people to longe in side reins?

Lungeing in side reins vs. jumping in draw reins are apples vs. oranges. If this thread were about 'Jumping in Side Reins' you can bet they'd be getting the same amount of "hatred", if not more than everyone's beloved draw reins. ;) I would be included in that too, and I personally love side reins when used appropriately.

Side reins are also a tool used without a rider, usually in the early training stages where a horse is learning to look for and take a steady, elastic contact. Often it's difficult for a rider to maintain a contact truly that consistent & steady, which a young or inexperienced horse most relies on. They're not supposed to be able to be loosened in a half a second, as an inconsistent contact can make a green horse worry. Then again, they're also not supposed to be cranked in either like so many people like to do, whereby the horse often freaks when it hits such a strong resistance and can't lift its head. In reality they're to not interfere with movement at all while the horse is walking, but should engage when the horse engages them at the trot or canter, as it reaches forward with its neck into the contact, & rounds its back into "frame". There's no need for loosening as there's nothing cranked tight.

I would agree that it's pretty much like Sarcam02 said -- the hatred comes from seeing the overuse & misuse, thereby hurting horses. Again, I personally like side reins, but I also just about had kittens the day I saw a kid at our barn jumping her pony through a gymnastic in them. There's a time & a place for everything, jumping not being the place for either of these tools.

OveroHunter
Nov. 18, 2011, 06:02 PM
I rarely use any sort of aid, but if I do draw reins are pretty much the only thing I will use while riding (I have neck stretchers I like for lunging) for the exact reason AmmyByNature brought up. I had a horse rear and fall over once in side reins because it spooked, realized its head was down, freaked, and there was nothing I could do... With draw reins you can loosen nearly instantly!

However, I have never, and will never jump with them on.

sarcam02
Nov. 18, 2011, 06:12 PM
Perhaps these three threads (out of the 8 pages that come up when you search for "jumping + draw + reins") will help. Those are just three threads with titles nearly identical to your own.

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=300022&highlight=jumping+draw+reins

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=298563&highlight=jumping+draw+reins

http://www.chronofhorse.com/forum/showthread.php?t=291775&highlight=jumping+draw+reins

Draw reins don't ruin a horse, although a person using them badly certainly can. As can a person using pretty much ANYTHING badly.

I personally agree with CBoylen's assessment. I have jumped horses in draw reins and have seen my horses jumped by my pro in draw reins. Attached to a breastplate or run through the neck strap of a martingale, due to personal preference.

On a slightly different topic, why the hatred of draw reins when people all seem to love side reins? You know what I can do with draw reins? Loosen them in half a second. Adjust them depending on need. Not really the story with side reins. Why do draw reins get so vilified when everyone and their mother is telling people to longe in side reins?

Hated comes from seeing too many people overuse them and knowingly or unknowingly hurt horses. Yes - true pros who have soft hands can use them (and side reins) with great care but alas that is not the case 99% of the time.

harkington
Nov. 18, 2011, 06:15 PM
I initially only used draw reins in flat lessons with a competent instructor until I got the hang of them- now I use them for flat rides only. I have, however, seen some more experienced riders at my barn pop over a small x or vertical at the end of their ride with draw lines. Not something I'd advocate doing, but they seemed perfectly fine- and the jumps are about 18" of the ground.

northerhunter
Nov. 18, 2011, 06:20 PM
I flat my mare in draw reins, and sometimes jump her in them. She has a tendency to get strung out and goes too long, and the draw reins help bring her back more softly then just a true rein would. I did a clinic on the weekend, and used them then. I would say 95% of the time, there was no contact on the draw.

As the clinician said "I would rather see someone correctly using a pair of draw reins, than someone seesawing on their horse's mouth"

Kryswyn
Nov. 18, 2011, 06:22 PM
There are just a small percentage of people who are qualified IMHO to use draw reins while jumping. CBoylen is one of them. Pretty much everyone else should just forget about gadgets unless they're working with a really, really educated trainer.

CHT
Nov. 18, 2011, 06:32 PM
I agree with the OP that sales photos/videos of horses jumping in draw reins would really turn me off buying from that barn.

I posted a long time ago in the dressage forum about a horse being advertised for sale and had one draw rein on in the flat video. The seller told me that it was something "all the big trainers did" in a tone as if trying to make me feel stupid for not knowing.

I did not buy from her and will not in the future.

Mako
Nov. 18, 2011, 06:54 PM
I agree with the OP that sales photos/videos of horses jumping in draw reins would really turn me off buying from that barn.

I posted a long time ago in the dressage forum about a horse being advertised for sale and had one draw rein on in the flat video. The seller told me that it was something "all the big trainers did" in a tone as if trying to make me feel stupid for not knowing.

I did not buy from her and will not in the future.

Exactly! I can't believe they would have sale pictures of jumping the horse in draw reins and market that horse as an experienced Jumper who will win ribbons. Not one picture didn't have draw reins. And they also advertised that the horse went in a french link snaffle. Ya it sure does with draw reins attached to it :rolleyes:

supaflyskye that was just awful!! I can't believe that was at a show. That looks bad on her trainer imo.

I do believe that draw reins do have there place and time but not all the time and definately not to jump in. And never in inexperienced hands.

CBoylen
Nov. 18, 2011, 06:56 PM
I have no problem with jumping in draw reins, as some of you pointed out ;). However, I feel sales pictures should be done in show tack. Really, the issue here is presentation, not training. Although I fail to see what the price has to do with it. That having been said, it wouldn't prevent me from going to look at the horse if I was otherwise interested. If you weeded out horses to look at by presentation alone you'd be left with very few horses to see.

jr
Nov. 18, 2011, 07:03 PM
There are just a small percentage of people who are qualified IMHO to use draw reins while jumping. CBoylen is one of them. Pretty much everyone else should just forget about gadgets unless they're working with a really, really educated trainer.

Wow, arent you something. I've seen draw reins used as a tool by top hunter instructors, top jumper clinicians, multiple successful jumper riders, Olympians, and students of those above. Someone should tell them to check with you to see if they make the list.

I love it when people pick a picture and say theres your proof. I could pick out dozens of pictures without draw reins with similar problems. I could also find a picture of a horse jumping correctly in draw reins.

Really people, get over yourselves. Draw reins are like any tool, they can be used correctly or incorrectly. I'd rather see a horse under the tutelage of a professional in draw reins, then being ridden badly by an amateur in the wrong bit and nasty hands. The point is, if you don't like them, don't use them.

magnolia73
Nov. 18, 2011, 07:56 PM
People are really stupid about advertising- use a photo that shows the horse at their best- not in a bunch of gadgets- don't give people reasons to say no...

But the draw rein debate gets old. Some people use them well, some people use them carelessly. If they didn't have draw reins, they'd have another gadget, a bigger bit or a neck stretcher. Some people don't care to do dressage correctly, some are lazy, some are ignorant.

I would not go look at a horse coming from a barn where ever horse was shown in draw reins- I'd assume an uneducated trainer. But if someone needs them as an aid on some horses on occasion, it isn't such a big deal.

Madeline
Nov. 18, 2011, 08:53 PM
Am I OK if I hate side reins as well?

I've always felt that anyone with educated enough hands to use draw reins wouldn't need them...

meupatdoes
Nov. 18, 2011, 10:29 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cBI5S9PFW2g&


This video, which is several years old, is a conglomeration of three schools on my horse that I did with him, which are the only schools in the entirety of his history that I ever used draw reins on him.

I used them on the recommendation of and under the supervision of an excellent, highly qualified trainer. I do not think I am in some rarified elite rider category who is one of the only people in the world qualified to do x and such, but I also do not think I am doing my horse any kind of disservice during those rides. We used them to help him jump straight (not to pull his head down) in the beginning of the school, and then took them off at the end.

Look at the video, evaluate us, and then realize that the horse was 4yo at the time, had roughly two and a half weeks of jump schooling under his belt, and these were probably his 7th, 8th and 9th schools he had ever had over fences in his life. Those jumps are pretty much all of the jumps he jumped in those three schools too, so the schools themselves were kept short and to the point.


Again, I think he is doing just fine for a horse that is still in single digits for total lifetime jump schools and there is nothing remotely like the linked picture going on anywhere. There is no tension, rushing, stress, or control issues whatsoever.In fact he looks ten times more made than half the horses I see strompling around the local shows. But it is possible I do everything backasswards.

It is years later now and nobody needs to wonder how the story ends: he turned out just fine and at his latest horse show carried one of my students to ribbons at a AA show with 30+ in the division. I don't think I ruined him.

In case anyone is interested in statistics, in the intervening five years since that video was shot I have used draw reins on a total of two additional horses, for maybe five rides total between them. I ride, on average, about 12 horses per week which is over 3,000 rides since that video was shot. That number includes several horses that I retrained, remediated, fixed for their owners, got ready for resale coming out of the auction, or demoed as six figure sale horses for BNTs, whatever. So out of 3,000 rides, sitting on every type of horse under the sun, to use them for 8 rides in 5 years is not exactly a high level of dependence on gadgets.

I use them very, very rarely but I am certainly not going to say "NEVER" because every once in a very rare while a horse comes along where a couple rides in the draws might be jut the thing to help him out. And personally, I think that's ok.

Punkie
Nov. 18, 2011, 10:56 PM
I've jumped in yolk reins and ridden in draw reins a fair amount in my 21+ years in the saddle. I average 6-10 horses a day and if I use them 4 times in a month over...oh, 200 rides, that's a bit much. I don't jump in DRAW reins on the basic principle that a horse could get his or her foot caught. I do use yolks over fences for horses that have a tendency for their step to grow and grow and grow and have a hell of a time finding their way back. And the beauty of it is you can remind them and then let go! For some horses, they serve as a nice aid and reminder, but I most CERTAINLY won't ride just any horse in them, nor are they something I use 100% of the time when they are attached. And for the record, I'm most certainly no one special...I've just been fortunate to receive a good education and have been properly taught to use the tools available to me.

doublesstable
Nov. 19, 2011, 12:04 AM
I wouldn't personally jump in draw reins.. would fear leg could get caught.. I have seen rubber rings used a the chest to hold the reins up but still wouldn't do it.

I wouldn't place an ad of a horse with draw reins on - doesn't make much sense.

I used to think draw reins were okay but changing how I feel.. I have a horse that nicely comes into my hand, takes a nice feel of the bit, from my leg and that feel is so much better cantering to the jump than a horse that dissapears in your hand by curling.

Saying that, I feel any bit, any saddle, any hand, any spur, any whip, any draw reins - any etc... etc... can be good or bad depending on the human using it......

wcporter
Nov. 19, 2011, 12:36 AM
See here (http://pegasusphotography.smugmug.com/FoxLeaAugustSchoolingShow/497/18695248_jrssjr#1446000429_9ZzpLwQ-A-LB).

:eek:

BUT

there is a huge difference between THAT and Meupatdoes' video.

Like any training tool, it has potential to be grossly misused.

BTW- did anyone else notice how crooked that horse jumps - is there a correlation???

Fun Size
Nov. 20, 2011, 01:30 AM
I had never jumped in draw reins before this year. I probably didn't have the stability for it!

My horse is very experienced, and we only do about 2'6". He is your typical kick to go older guy, and I often get desperate to make him go forward. Draw reins require WAY more leg, at least on him, so on the flat it makes me be more effective and like another poster said about them in another thread, managing 4 reins makes you be more correct.

When we jumped in them...it was a lightbulb moment! I said to my trainer, "I can feel exactly where his feet are all the way to the jump!" Well, it was because I was really squeezing and managing the reins better and had things working together. So, like everyone always says, it is an advanced tool that should be used by people who either really know what they are doing or are supervised by a trainer who does. My horse just goes in a D snaffle. We used to school in the D and show in a pelham, but now we school with the D/draw reins and show with the just the D. Works great!

In a sale ad? Maybe not. I would guess it should be show ready tack. I haven't been in the horse world all that long, but I am realizing that almost anything goes in sale ads. Some are very strange, and very unprofessional...and then they wonder why no one calls.

Star's Ascent
Nov. 20, 2011, 01:52 AM
I would be worried about jumping in draw reins, but I've also never tried it. However, I would be really turned off by it in a video or photos. I would expect a horse for sale for a good amount of money to be presented to its best ability. If they want to ride in them at home that's fine, but I think the horse should be presented without them in the ad as well as when you go to see it. Its amazing what people use as a photo or video. I've seen sale ads for AQHA's that have all their funky tie down gadgets on. If a horse goes without it in the show ring, why can't you take a sale video without them? There was an article in PH I think about how the right photo can help sell your horse and that is so very true! There is nothing like seeing an ad for a 5 figure horse that is an eq winner, etc and its the horse eating in pasture....

Wholehearted
Nov. 20, 2011, 10:47 AM
I don't jump in draw reins but I'm still pretty novice so we only use them for schooling on the flat. I'm mystified by all the hatred towards draw/side reins, German martingales, and neck stretchers. I'm not a huge fan of gadgets, but while my trainer can get my horse into a working frame, my OTTB with me prefers to star gaze and the gadgets help me get him back a little more.

catosis
Nov. 20, 2011, 12:32 PM
I abhor draw reins- they are only a training short cut to avoid learning how to properly getting a horse in frame.

doublesstable
Nov. 20, 2011, 12:55 PM
I abhor draw reins- they are only a training short cut to avoid learning how to properly getting a horse in frame.

And fixing one that has gone down that path is practically impossible. IMHO.....

catosis
Nov. 20, 2011, 01:05 PM
And fixing one that has gone down that path is practically impossible. IMHO.....

Not impossible, but certainly not a task the average novice with minimal dressage understanding should undertake, either.

Due's Mom
Nov. 20, 2011, 01:43 PM
And fixing one that has gone down that path is practically impossible. IMHO.....

It just takes a very long time and in time of stress they sometimes revert. I am dealing with one of those now and he is FINALLY learning to carry himself.

ideayoda
Nov. 20, 2011, 03:03 PM
Some thoughts: WHY draw reins? Then are NOT for longitudinal flexion ('on the bit' outline) nor for keeping the head down. They are not to be used as a pulley (which is what most people use them for). THey are meant to be used for (light) lateral flexion because lateral flexibility leads to longitudinal flexion. Also, because they are usually attached between the legs that is VERY dangerous for jumping.

IF the rider thinks they 'need' a pulley, then why not a german martingale which is safer. Or (what is leg for international jumping)...a properly fitted running martingale (the rings are the height of the point of the hip) which has no effect unless the horse really were to invert.

Why should a young horse need any of these things? What about progressive schooling so the horse is not onto the forehand, so that it trots a caveletti steadily, that it understands timing to a fence because of PROGRESSIVE exercises?

stolen virtue
Nov. 20, 2011, 04:09 PM
I abhor draw reins- they are only a training short cut to avoid learning how to properly getting a horse in frame.

I completely agree. Putting a horse in a nice correct frame takes a long time. It is getting a couple of nice strides after months of work with young, green horses. It is having this issue or that issue come up that requires even more technique and skill to get that desired frame and working through issues that hamper the training.

Draw reins, and I have used them, do not develop the hind end or create the muscle strength a horse needs to go in a nice frame. I think lunging in side reins is OK but I am not a fan of lunging due to joint stress from too much circling. I do understand trainers wanting to expedite the process and using draw reins-time is money. However, I can feel a weak hind end while riding a horse and any request on my part for a horse to use their hind end and be ridden in a frame without having the strength is completly pointless.

doublesstable
Nov. 20, 2011, 06:10 PM
It just takes a very long time and in time of stress they sometimes revert. I am dealing with one of those now and he is FINALLY learning to carry himself.

Yes you are so right, stress can create revert :) That is the key teaching them to carry themselves...

I realize it can be done... like I said practically impossible; and know it does take a LONG time....

Brigit
Nov. 20, 2011, 06:23 PM
I have done it *BUT* only once! On a very scopey TB that went from soft & supple on the flat, to locked jaw and running in front of a fence. 1 stride combo's became absolutely scary bounces because the mare would not back off. One time of jumping with draw reins (not cranked up like in that photo posted... Yikes!) and it was like night & day jumping afterwards. It gave my hand a little extra oomph when I needed it but I was darn sure to make sure I really released over the fence so the horse's head wasn't cranked down. Did I ever jump with them again? Nope.
Would I recommend it to anyone? Nope. Would I do it again? not very likely unless a similar horse with a similar issue came along.

Would I ride that horse in draw reins all the time? Heck no. It's a crutch and a poor excuse for not taking the time to put the proper training building blocks in place. Some people are just in too big a hurry to get their greenies jumping to do that important foundation work and get it solid.

hntrjmprpro45
Nov. 20, 2011, 06:41 PM
Some thoughts: WHY draw reins? Then are NOT for longitudinal flexion ('on the bit' outline) nor for keeping the head down. They are not to be used as a pulley (which is what most people use them for). THey are meant to be used for (light) lateral flexion because lateral flexibility leads to longitudinal flexion. Also, because they are usually attached between the legs that is VERY dangerous for jumping.

IF the rider thinks they 'need' a pulley, then why not a german martingale which is safer. Or (what is leg for international jumping)...a properly fitted running martingale (the rings are the height of the point of the hip) which has no effect unless the horse really were to invert.

This.
I have worked with some great trainers who like to also use them on youngsters who get very crooked. The draw reins can help create some stability in the event that the horse decides to start rubber necking (bulging neck from side to side).

When used as a pulley, it can ruin a horse in no time flat. They learn to carry themselves behind the vertical and will often resist moving into the contact.

A big problem in our h/j industry in this country is the lack of quality flat work. Threads like this only highlight that fact.

Equilibrium
Nov. 21, 2011, 05:44 AM
I don't jump in draw reins. But do occasionally use them. But I use a "yoke" and attatch my reins to the ring at the chest. I also never use draw reins as my only rein.

Terri

ohrebecca
Nov. 21, 2011, 12:52 PM
I have never even used them, because I don't trust myself to use them properly! But were I using them, I doubt I'd ever ever use them over fences.

Atypical
Nov. 21, 2011, 08:57 PM
I believe I have used draw reins oh, maybe twice in the last 5 or 6 years? I have jumped with them, on one of those two occasions. It was a situation much like a previous poster, the horse is big and terribly strong and bold to a fence. Super well schooled on the flat. I had them attached to a breastplate and they only came in use if he tried to give me a proverbial middle finger about half halting to a fence. One ride, probably less than 10 jumps and off they came.

cswoodlandfairy
Nov. 22, 2011, 09:54 AM
I use draw reins both on the flat and over fences. I have them attached to my horse’s breastplate. I have never had a problem using them and more often than they are used as a quick reminder and my horse only needs to know they are there. I used them last week working on shortening his stride and he’s quick to toss up his head in my face and basically tell me to bug off, however when they are on they are loose, I don’t have his head cranked down, but when he tosses his head up into them he immediately stops. I probably go around with them on and then take them off and he’s perfect. And before anyone goes off blaming my poor seat or hands, I couldn’t have sat and deeper or had any softer hands, he just has that type of personality where he needs reminders, but you would never see me like the picture previously posted.

I have shown in them and never had any issues, but I have past the point and now only use them as reminders every once in a while.

I think as long as the person using them is educated and has a trainer that is educated anyone can use them. But it is a matter of how handsy the rider is and how well they know how to use their seat to still support the horse while in use. I have seen people use them as their brakes or whatever they think they need them for and rely on them.

holaamigoalter
Nov. 22, 2011, 10:11 AM
Read below.

kaluha2
Nov. 22, 2011, 01:08 PM
Paula got right down to it before I could.
All too often draw reins are used for longitudinal flexion. UGH! I doubt they are being used for this purpose over fences.

Last night I visited a jumper barn with well know trainers that do exceptionally well at the upper end shows standing a few lovely stallions. I found it very educational as horse after horse stepped into the ring wearing (all at the same time) draw reins strapped between the horses legs, flash nosebands and running matingales and sizable bits spurs and crops to school.

They had these horses coming and going. LOL!

"A big problem in our h/j industry in this country is the lack of quality flat work. Threads like this only highlight that fact."

It is very interesting to see those that consider "riders and trainers" that use these get ups as knowledgable and pros.

ideayoda
Nov. 22, 2011, 01:13 PM
DR tend to work on the bars of the mouth (THE most sensitive part of the horses body) when used for longitudinal flexion, if they are fixed to the breastplate they do it even more so. IF a horse is tossing its head the rider should ask why rather than band aiding the cause.

People SHOW in DR??? Where is that now allowed showing? And how sad that the art of riding has gone to that?

DR are NOT for longitudinal flexion or to be used as a preventative for head tossing. They are for lateral flexibility which would aid in better bit acceptance. (And interestingly enough the original use was on a caveson for lateral flexibility before a bit was introduced).

It is often said that one has to be an expert to use them, and if you are an expert you don't need them.