AQHA Hunter Under Saddle (and now Reining!!). Update - AQHA Statement Pg. 5

[Plumcreek]

Many good horsemen have been grossed out by the extremely low head carriage required to win HUS in AQHA shows. I and some others have complained to Alex Ross, the new Ex. Director of Judges (and a good horseman), and he is making it his mission to return HUS to the "level or slightly above and vertical or in front of vertical" head carriage mandated by the rulebook. One warning letter has already been sent to judges. Now a new stronger letter (judge by rules or turn in card) letter is going out as well as notice on AQHA website next week. The upcoming Judges Seminars will cover Working Hunter and Hunter under Saddle as they relate to each other, with Shane George and Carla Wenberg as moderators, to explain why HUS heads cannot be so low. A notice will also be posted in show offices.

AQHA offers so many nice programs; Incentive Fund - earn money for showing, Age 50 and over "Select" classes and new Select World Show, and Youth World Show - where jumper and eq. over fences winners get a $5000.00 training grant, etc. I hope some of you with AQHA or Appx. horses will take another look at the QH english and hunter classes.

Changes in judging should be apparent by late summer. This time I think it will really improve!

[Plumcreek]

Many good horsemen have been grossed out by the extremely low head carriage required to win HUS in AQHA shows. I and some others have complained to Alex Ross, the new Ex. Director of Judges (and a good horseman), and he is making it his mission to return HUS to the "level or slightly above and vertical or in front of vertical" head carriage mandated by the rulebook. One warning letter has already been sent to judges. Now a new stronger letter (judge by rules or turn in card) letter is going out as well as notice on AQHA website next week. The upcoming Judges Seminars will cover Working Hunter and Hunter under Saddle as they relate to each other, with Shane George and Carla Wenberg as moderators, to explain why HUS heads cannot be so low. A notice will also be posted in show offices.

AQHA offers so many nice programs; Incentive Fund - earn money for showing, Age 50 and over "Select" classes and new Select World Show, and Youth World Show - where jumper and eq. over fences winners get a $5000.00 training grant, etc. I hope some of you with AQHA or Appx. horses will take another look at the QH english and hunter classes.

Changes in judging should be apparent by late summer. This time I think it will really improve!

[RumoursFollow]

I am most positive that the AQHA is headed in the right direction with Alex Ross "in the irons." Thank God for him! What wonderful horseman and person he is.

[OakesBrae]

thank god thank god thank god. Used to hurt to watch.

[HiJumpGrrl]

call me crazy (ok, crazy), but I think they had addressed this issue a couple years ago, not only in HUS but also Western Pleasure. it has yet to make much of a difference, and i hate to be the doubting thomas, but honestly, i'll believe it when i see it. maybe they're not (or will stop) pinning the peanut rollers at higher level competitions (nationals, worlds, etc), but i'd be willing to bet that regionally peanut-rolling is a trend that will continue.

however, i fervantly hope the restatement of the AQHA's position on this will make a difference!

[RumoursFollow]

Oh I agree that this isnt the first time its been brought up. I just honestly believe that if anyone around can make the change, its Alex Ross. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Magnolia]

What is the point of peanut rollers / how did it come into fashion. Not practical for jumping, but also, sounds none too practical for western activities either. I understand the concept of a pleasure horse not going in a dressage frame...... but why did the peanut roller become "the headset"?

[FUTUREJUMPER]

What does AQHA offer as far as hunter o/f and eq? Do they have divisions, what heights, etc?
I am in Georgia and have seen a couple of AQHA shows in Conyers, and there just didn't seem to be alot of attendance in the Hunter department. Also, do they have jumpers??

[EquineLegalSolutions]

Hallelujah!!!! Hopefully, APHA will be next, and then perhaps we'll be competitive at APHA shows. In addition to head set, I hope they plan to address gaits (i.e., you can't jump easily from a lope - HUS horses need to actually canter).

[HiJumpGrrl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by EquineLegalSolutions:
In addition to head set, I hope they plan to address gaits <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i think they've already addressed gaits, as well... as in, 4-beat canters in WP are supposed to be dq-ed. again, the rule change just hasn't been enforced. drives me nuts, one of my biggest pet peves.

i think the AQHA does offer some o/f stuff (AO, regular working, green, and even jumpers), but as with the arabs, the focus is on the undersaddle divisions, and many shows do not have the classes. at least down here, that's the way it is.

[Flashy Gray]

A big old rah rah rah to Mr. Ross and the AQHA for taking this proactive step regarding judging standards.

It will be interesting to see how it plays out, as folks who own currently ribbon-winning 'peanut rollers' are going to be none too happy when they aren't regularly winning, but I don't want to sound like a cynic here. The association and QH show folks can cross that bridge when they come to it.

For now, the correspondence to the judges is a good thing, and again I applaud the AQHA's proactivity on this.

[Gunnar]

How will the peanut rollers stop peanut rolling? Hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Much as I hate peanut rolling it seems a lot of horses may be out of a job. Pick up your heads and join the in crowd.

[J. Turner]

It's easier to pick the horse's head up a little than get it down.

[Plumcreek]

PANDA3030,
Not every AQHA show offers the hunter over fences classes, but many more do in the East than in the West. If you want to do them, ask someone who does or get an AQHA Journal where classes to be held at shows are listed. Two big ones I know about are the January Florida Circuits (20-30 hunters per class), the Lexington, Virginia shows, and of course the Congress in Ohio. Florida is the definate hot spot for AQHA hunters.

Heights for Novice Youth and N. Amateur, and Green Hunters are 2'6" Jr. Horse (5 and Under),Youth and amateur are 3' Open Senior Horse 3'6". Most weekend shows set a little lower than these heights, but full height at huge shows like World and Congress.

I should also mention the fairly recent AQHA restricted judge program that allows hunter experts to be hired to judge the over fences classes at the larger shows where they can afford a separate judge.

[RumoursFollow]

In addition to the questions asked by Panda- yes there are in fact jumpers. I'm not sure of the heights though.

When I did AQHA I did it in GA (where, btw, the o/f classes are hardly ever even offered, other than Hunter Hack which lots of the western crossovers do because its 2 VERY low fences) I just did hunter hack and never actually saw a working hunter class fill.

Does anyone know what the amateur jumpers and also senior open (assuming they're divided?) are at Paint Worlds? I'd like to take my horse next year and know of shows I can take him to to qualify, but I wouldnt bother if they're bigger than 3'6. I've seen them mostly at 3' with maybe a 3'3'' thrown in (all levels same jumps) around where I've shown- but they were small shows.

[KellyS]

Hey RumoursFollow, when did you do AQHA in Georgia? I actively showed as a youth in '95, '96, & '97, and I was wondering if our paths ever crossed? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Height-wise, if I remember correctly, at least for the Youth classes, Hunter Hack was 2'6, Equitation Over Fences was 2'6, and Working Hunter was 3' (and these were the heights for the youth world). I can't remember about jumping, but I bet it was between 3'3 & 3'6 for the youth, definitely bigger for the open divisions.

We always had a hard time filling the classes, but we normally averaged 3-5 in the Eq and Hunter O/F classes, Hunter Hack averaged 8-10 riders. Considering that the pleasure and HUS classes (the biggest youth classes) averaged anywhere from 10 - 20 riders, that really was not to bad of a turnout.

Regarding the low headset, in '96 I showed at almost every show against the horse that eventually won the World Championship. My guy and I were always right behind them, but I'll never forget the day when a judge gave the horse the gate when the horse went around with its ears below its withers. After that, I saw the trainer schooling the horse with an "overcheck" to help keep it from putting its head so low! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[hideyourheart03]

That's great! I'm quite excited about it as I have to judge HUS and WP classes for 4H and we have to judge them on the AQHA rules which has previously made it quite hard for us hunter riders to do well as they like the "peanut roller" type.

And I have to say that Alex Ross is a really really good horseman too. We had to watch tapes of him explaining how to properly judge WP classes and he did an AMAZING job (I actually understood what you were looking for in WP horses for once! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif)

[findeight]

Wonderful...but I heard the same thing 20 years ago...and it's gotten worse.

Gutless judges...who are also breeders and handlers, who will show next week under those they give the gate to today just will not stand up for what is right when it will cost them their best clients down the road.

We breed the finest sport horses in the world in this country..and lame them and drug them(legal in the cow horse and reining assiciations) and use them up and spit them out when they wash up and age out...at 5 years.

Oh..off the soapbox...but will believe change when I see it..and I...and my friends who show these, ain't seen nothing yet.

[pooh]

My QH was breed and intially trained by a western pleusre guy and it took me at least 3 years to get him out of peanut rollign without completely exhausting myself so YEAH!! I know a few years ago the western part really got on the judges about unnatural headset- usually obtained by very large ports. One year at Harrisburg they were pretty successful- many of the "old fashion" trainers were actually beaten by some of the amateurs due to headset.
I'd love to do some AQHA shows- but never can find any locally! ( and to drive my tranier who works primarily with TB/WB crazy!)

[findeight]

"They" say the rules are changed.
But at the show..........where are "they", because it is all SSDD...same...er, stuff...different day.

[buryinghill1]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by ponyice:.
I'd love to do some AQHA shows- but never can find any locally! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I have friends who do PQHA shows, and love the circuit. They said the shows are all fun and well run.
http://www.pqha.org/openshows.htm

[Plumcreek]

I agree. I and some of you have heard the "we are going to change it" tune for the last 20 years. HOWEVER, the western Pleasure class HAS gotten better in the last couple of years and definately better since they are calling for "lope with increased forward motion" (If you don't think it is better, you didn't see how really, really bad it was 15 years ago). Alex Ross was primarily responsible for the improvement in WP and I believe he can do the same for HUS. There are two main considerations: 1. Exhibitors are punished for not following the rules - judges should follow the rules also. 2. The class rules are written for Hunter under Saddle, not English Pleasure. Judges who have never seen a real USEF HUS class are judging it as English Pleasure (a western pleasure horse under english tack). The pendulum has swung too far and is ready to swing back - change just might really happen this time!

[Jumphigh83]

hhmmmmmmmmm..maybe I can get back on the pleasurehorse.com site after being booted for pointing out the "end of the trail" quality of the HUS and Western pleasure horses (NOT!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif)...they told me they are BRED THAT WAY!!!!!!!! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif hahahahahahahahahahahahahahhahah I have NEVER ever ever NEVER seen a foal gallop across a field with his head below his withers!!!!!! Heads up, tails up and off they all go!

[BarnSlave24/7]

Something I have heard, and please no one yell at me for this....but because the low head set has become so popular.....trainers have started to tie their horses in their stalls over night....with their heads straight up in the air with their feet barely touching the ground, so that during the show, the horse has to hold its head so low because the horse is in pain and is tired....Like I said, it is something I have heard....

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by BarnSlave24/7:
Something I have heard, and please no one yell at me for this....but because the low head set has become so popular.....trainers have started to tie their horses in their stalls over night....with their heads straight up in the air with their feet barely touching the ground, so that during the show, the horse has to hold its head so low because the horse is in pain and is tired....Like I said, it is something I have heard.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

STARTED http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Oh, honey, this has been going on since I started showing in 1967..and I'd bet it was nothing new then. they also withold feed and water to dehydrate them and get them "quiet"..and it doesn't test so nobody gets kicked out.
Hell of a world.

[RumoursFollow]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KellyS:
Hey RumoursFollow, when did you do AQHA in Georgia? I actively showed as a youth in '95, '96, & '97, and I was wondering if our paths ever crossed? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I showed from 89-92. I did Youth HH, HUS, HSE, Showmanship, WP, and I tried Trail once but my horse wandered off when I had to walk around him so I never did it again. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[LightRanch]

BarnSlave, I use one of the top 3 hunter under saddle trainers in the QH world. Rest assured, that she NEVER, EVER "ties heads straight up in the air with their feet barely touching the ground, so that during the show, the horse has to hold its head so low because the horse is in pain and is tired"!!! I specifically sent my horses to her because she actually likes her horses and treats them accordingly.
I do agree we could get their heads up some. At the World Show, they pin it like it should be but it's the regional shows that they don't.

[Jumphigh83]

Please dont think this contentious but how do you get to the worlds if you dont get points regionally? THe politics in QH make the hunters/equitation look almost on the up and up! I used to show QH but couldnt take the "training methods" and the rail horses could NOT jump and the jumping horses were blown out of the rail for lack of head set AND inability to follow the leader around the ring (no passing no big strides etc). How are they supposed to jump with their heads dragging on the ground??? Let alone the "damage" it does to the ability to move their shoulders!

[MRedmond1502]

I took my greenie TB to his second show last weekend. It was a VQHA show but they had some open classes. He won his class and I'm pretty sure I was the only non-QH in the ring out of like 15 horses, but he didn't carry his head low, he carries it about parrallel most of the time.

[Flashy Gray]

For gosh's sakes, I don't mean to single you out, Barnslave, but why does every thread on this BB regarding attempts by various governing bodies/breed organizations to enact some modicum of reform have to devolve into a dramatic hash-out of abusive training practices?

Yes, Barnslave, one of the oft-rumoured (never personally seen by me but likely seen by more experienced folks here) 'techniques' used by abusive cheaters in the AQHA (and h/j world, I might add) to 'tire' a horse to create a 'headset' is tying it up.

It's a fact, it's bad, it's horrible. I'm not denying that. Animal abusers in any discipline need to be punished and eliminated from the sport.

But the point of this thread was to announce the great work being done by the AQHA and Mr. Ross in bringing judging standards up to par and away from a stylized artificial 'look.'

And I applaud them for that. ROME WAS NOT BUILT IN A DAY.

And for yall who have been involved in the AQHA for a long time and have seen a lot of bad stuff: first of all, I'm sorry for your bad experiences. It stinks that good horsepeople felt they had to leave a discipline because of the power of the rotten apples.

I also know how easy it is to become jaded and cynical about these types of 'reforms.' I guess (to use findeight's experience) after 20+ years of seeing attempts at change and seeing them resisted, I'd get tired and cynical too.

But I think we need to resist being so cynical about the outcomes. Again, Rome was not built in a day. You have to start somewhere. And I applaud the folks who are willing to stick their necks out, do the 'right' thing, and try again.

Just a call for a bit more optimism I suppose. And BTW, I just own a QH, and I am not currently an AQHA member - let my membership lapse a couple of years ago.

[cookie-monster]

"They".... Who are all these "they"s who do this horrible stuff to HUS horses?? I suppose some would assume I do because I have an AQHA HUS horse. Well just for the record, I DON'T, wouldn't and never have.

I'm all for the judges not picking "peanut rollers" that are behind the vertical. BUT, it's not a USEF under saddle class either, so keeping the neck level and face at or a little in front of the vertical is acceptable. The horses need to keep their shoulders and backs up and reach way up with their hocks. The placement of their head and neck shouldn't be too low or too high in order to move the way they are supposed to. And, if you look at HUS horses' conformation, their necks tie in to the shoulder at an angle that allows the neck to naturally be carried level.

I happen to think a good HUS horse is awesome to watch. It's obvious that's not a poplular opinion here, but I'll take that risk. I think alot of the hatred is due to having seen a bad example and no good ones. And also, the rumors that spread about all the horrible methods....I think that people tend to believe every bad thing they hear and assume that everyone involved does it & every horse goes through it, which is not true. And if they've seen it once, well then of course everyone does it. Well we all know that NO discipline is a form of sainthood, so one would think that people would stop bashing everything but their own discipline. But whatever.

AQHA and Alex Ross are addressing issues and attempting to correct problems. Things change. Thirty to 40 years ago, the headsets were high and horses moved fairly quick. I'm wondering how many were tying horses' heads up with their feet almost off the ground back then....and for that matter how many actually do this now...

But don't worry, I won't bring up ANY of the "BAD" things in the "H/J World". Because I KNOW they exist, BUT I don't believe that everyone does it just because I know that SOME do or that it's a reason to be condescending and snotty about it.

I have faith in AQHA doing the right thing. Changes may not be immediate, but they will happen. And of course, some people still won't be satisfied. That's typical.

BTW, the over fences horses that are ridden by anyone who knows anything ARE ridden forward with their necks and heads above and in front of the vertical. I guess the name Shane George is one that most will recognize as a good example. It seems sometimes people forget the association wasn't created as a H/J-only group. And that's part of the allure of it for me.

I'm sitting here looking at a picture of my mare trotting in a HUS class and her neck is level and her face is exactly vertical (it's lined up with a fence post). She's reaching with a flat knee up front and a quiet hock behind. And guess what??? She wasn't lunged to death, tied up to strangle, deprived of food or water or ridden with a big bad bit with a curb chain.

I LOFF HER http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Sandy M]

Well, sounds like an encouraging move, but I'll believe it when I see it. This was supposed to have been addressed some time ago, and at ONE show (California), I saw the judge(s) eliminate the peanut rollers.... but only that once and never again. This also most probably affects ApHC, since they slavishly emulate AQHA in everything. Still.... ApHC HAD "dressage suitability" and briefly used (then) AHSA dressage/sporthorse judges. When "the usual suspects" (i.e., WP moving QH-types) did not win under the AHSA judges..... they got rid of the judges! Then they changed it to "hunter in hand", which they judge no more correctly than they did "dressage suitability." Now, I board with an "S" level dressage judge, and for HER to be qualified to judge sporthorse classes, she would have to take several seminars and be tested - but ApHC thinks their judges can attend a lecture and be prepared to judge such clases correctly.... I hope AQHA is more stringent THIS time and that a real change occurs, but I won't hold my breath. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[FLAbreds]

Oh, thank you, thank you, cookie monster! You pretty much said everything I wanted to say. I have a deep affection for HUS QHs and in my state, Florida, the competition is pretty deep. My QH show mare passed away in March of this year and I regret not having the chance to show her HUS because she was a fantastic mover. Had a trainer that wanted to push the WP issue (which I enjoy riding a true and natural WP QH as well).

Anyways, after reading this thread I cannot wait until I find that special horse, "the one" for me, because I miss it so. To me there is nothing like riding those sweepy strided, flat kneed, deep hocked and quiet HUS QHs. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Plumcreek]

Re tying heads up overnight: AQHA has 6 regional "Reps" that travel around and moniter the shows. They have been known to go through the barns in the wee hours of the morning. Several BNTs, and some Small NTs have been suspended over the years as a result, one very recently. When winning horses sell for several hundred thousand dollars, some people will do anything to win. Not requiring heads to be so low will help that situation greatly.

[zedcadjna]

I have a student who does the Q.H shows w/ another trainer as I dont travel to them, but I was happy to see that chase no longer needs to be in training for the peanut pusher reward...

It was getting hard to take him from that and do the h/j shows.. I think it is better for everyone, and besides it was so un natural.. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[cookie-monster]

FLAbreds~ http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

I was really starting to think I might be the only one!! I'm not much into cliques, but I'm wondering if there needs to be a HUS QH one?!

Some people just don't understand.

[wowee zowee]

AMEN, cookie-monster! I just saw this topic now and I couldn't have said it any better myself.

Do you have any pictures online of your mare? I, too, love a nice HUS horse.

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cookie-monster:
I happen to think a good HUS horse is awesome to watch. It's obvious that's not a poplular opinion here, but I'll take that risk. I think alot of the hatred is due to having seen a bad example and no good ones. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You really think we hate AQHA HUS? I don't hate it...I don't like watching and usually think that I would like to take some of the HUS horses and get them carrying themselves like regular Hunters, but hate? My biggest problem is that it isn't HUNTER under saddle...and yes, I feel that's an important distinction. The people who do Hunters should be able to have an opinion on whether what someone else is calling HUS really is or not.

I don't mind the differences (for the most part) but call it something else, because it isn't Hunter Under Saddle. It's AQHA's version. QH's are versatile little horses...if you really wanna prove how versatile they are...emulate the namesake Hunter and then switch to western tack and go in whatever way the horse should there. Don't change the "look" to fit the horse...that's not true versatility.

[Plumcreek]

RugBug,
Actually, the rulebook is written for HUS to be true HUNTER style under saddle. The judges are judging English Pleasure - so the exhibitors who want to win are giving the judges what they want.

To paraphrase the rulebook: " Hunters under saddle should be suitable to purpose...long, low strides reaching forward with ease and smoothness...able to lengthen stride and cover ground...relaxed and free flowing...obedient, bright expression, alert ears, ...respond willinhgly with light leg and rein contact...move into hand gallop with same flowing motion...poll level or slightly above withers to allow impulsion behind, nose on or slightly in front of the vertical". Sounds like the horses I see at the A Circuit shows.

This is why I am lobbying to effect change - the rulebook is correct, the judges are the problem.

[Plumcreek]

I should add that I do realize that AQHA judges have to be knowlegable about an incredible range of highly technical events from cutting to roping to reining to western pleasure to working hunter. But, if they put themselves out as judges, they should work very hard to understand the classes they have no background in.

[scotchdun]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
...It's AQHA's version. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...for AQHA horses. What's your problem?

[Flash44]

There is a gray QH on dreamhorse that does well in HUS. I removed the link becuase I didn't think it was appropriate that someone else's sale horse was getting critiqued here!

He is just fabulous!

[Sparky]

He is lovely, but I sure hope that with all the points he is winning, he is in the Incentive Fund! If not, he'll be hard to sell http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Magnolia]

WOW, $65,000 for a horse that can walk, trot and canter really nicely.....

So far removed from the traditional QH - looks like a TB....

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by scotchdun:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by RugBug:
...It's AQHA's version. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

...for AQHA horses. What's your problem? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Not much of a problem, scotchdun. If you had read my post you would know what I object to. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif I don't believe what is being judged is truly Hunter Under Saddle. Like Plumcreek states, it's more "English Pleasure." Call it that and be done with it. Just like when I go to a baseball game I expect to see baseball being played, not kickball. The two are different, different enough that we avoid shows that are heavy in QH participants (not AQHA shows, but usually fair type shows, etc with heavy western representation) because we know the judging will not be true HUS but the western version.

Oh, and I like that gray horse. Lovely trot. Like I said before, I'd love to take him and get him off his forehand and raise that poll up (at least above his withers). But that's just MHO....

[Sandy M]

RugBug - I am with you 100%! I have absolutely no problem with AQHA (or APHA or ApHC)conducting its English classes in whatever manner and under whatever standards it wishes, but DON'T CALL IT HUNTER UNDER SADDLE. Call it "Hunt Seat Pleasure." As I am sure many on this thread know, at the "A" level in open shows, you canNOT show in HUS unless you show in at least one class over fences within the division. No one who is going to show over fences wants their horse going in the manner HUS horses go (or have gone - I reserve judgment on the "changes" and whether they will actually happen) in AQHA, ApHC and APHA shows. I have to laugh when I see copies of the QH Journal and Appaloosa Journal with National/World show results. There will be 30-40 and more horses in the various "Hunter Under Saddle" classes, perhaps 10-12 horses in the 2'6" classes, BUT the minute the fences hit 3' or better (in ApHC 3'3" and 3'6" for hunters, with 3'9" and above for jumpers), the class numbers drop to 4 or 5 horses. Gee, you mean all those "hunters" in the HUS classes can't jump? Ain't hunters then - they are PLEASURE horses.

I think it is interesting to note that when I retired my Appaloosa from eventing in his late teens and started to do breed shows (over fences only) and open shows, I placed and occasionally won, both on the flat and over fences at open shows. At breed shows, I won most of my over fence classes, and the ones I did not win, I lost to a fellow former eventer. If the other former eventer was not at the show, I never (over a period of four years) had to jump off at a breed show: I was invariably the only one who went clean. The firt major breed show I took him to, he was circuit champion jumper - with never a jump off, and usually, if the class was 3'6" or above - no more than one or two horses for competition. That was, admittedly, a while ago (circa 1987 - 1991). I certainly hope things have improved since then, but the numbers I see listed for class participation in the National/World shows (ApHC) don't seem to indicate any improvement. I realize there are many more QH competitors, but since ApHC pretty much follows AQHA rules down the line, I think the comparison is valid.

[Flash44]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
Gee, you mean all those "hunters" in the HUS classes can't jump? Ain't hunters then - they are PLEASURE horses. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Maybe the "H" in HUS means hilltopper under saddle?

[LMH]

Well if we are going to split hairs, let's split-what "we" do isn't "hunters" anymore either!

Hello-forward canter or hand gallop around a hunt field, showing in a ring with jumps that look like those found in the hunt field???

When do you count strides when you hunt?

There is dirty pool in EVERY discipline-including hunters and jumpers.

I don't care for the peanut rollers but I drool at the very thought of a QH cross http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[MeanderCreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
This is what is winning in the HUS:

http://www.dreamhorse.com/show_horse.php?form_horse_id=421294

He is just fabulous! <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, lovley horse. I'm a big fan of the SBW babies.

And, he sold at Tattersalls earlier this year for WAY less (like 44K less) than the current asking price http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

And, yes I'm a nerd and read sale catalogs and sale results religously for all the major QH sales http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Quite frankly, I don't understand why folks get their panties in a twist over the name of a class in an association in which they don't even participate. I mean, I don't sit around expounding on why Grand Prix dressage should be called giraffes under drama queens flouncing about or why Advanced Eventing should be called suicidal maniacs under adrenaline junkies. I simply choose not to participate and figure to each his own - what exactly is so difficult with that concept?

[Other]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MeanderCreek:

And, yes I'm a nerd and read sale catalogs and sale results religously for all the major QH sales http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

What are these catalogs and "sale" results in which they put who bought them and how much they go for?? Can anyone access these? Where are they, and how do people feel about them?

I think this would be considered a major no-no in the regular hunter world. Talk about an invasion of privacy. The majority of parents out there do NOT want their own kids to know how much they paid for that fancy large pony of theirs, much less having the rest of the world know that they spent a quarter million dollars on the thing.

[Other]

Wow, ok, it's late and I'm tired. I just put two and two together-we're talking auctions here, eh? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the box...

[KellyS]

RugBug & Sandy M...

Why does the hunter world feel they have the right to dictate what another association calls one of their classes. Just because an AQHA HUS class isn't the exact same as an USEF HUS class, why does the AQHA have to change the class name?

The "holier than thou" attitude is a bit much at times! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Personally, my own QH who was winning at the AQHA shows, crossed over to the A-rated hunter shows and basically kicked butt. If there was such a vast difference in class standards, I doubt he would have been so successful in both venues.

[Magnolia]

Yes, show hunters trying to say QH hunters aren't hunters is kind of like the pot calling the kettle black...... The true "hunter under saddle" needs to be sure footed, level headed and able to stand still after a good gallop with the herd. I do believe these requirements come far before the need to be a cute mover! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

Don't QH shows have both english pleasure and hunter under saddle classes? What are the parameters.

[Sparky]

We are showing a 4 year old QH at the moment which, in three weeks time, was circuit champion at a large AQHA show in the open hunter hack (14 entries), which is a class with two jumps and rail work, where the judges obviously loved him on the flat as he won two of the four classes, then went on to a "AA" rated USEF show, where he was champion in the Young Hunter, also winning the hack. One week later he was moved up to the pre-green at an "AA" rated show, where he not only won the hack (with 25 horses) but two of the over fences classes as well. He wasn't presented any differently under saddle to suit the QH or the
USEF judges. Of course, you have to look pretty hard on his pedigree to find the one QH amongst all the TB's! But he is the epitome of the modern QH HUS and has no problem crossing over to the h/j world.

[LightRanch]

Magnolia,
No we (AQHA shows) do not have English Pleasure and HUS. We only have HUS. Which I guess is the debate here. Some people would like to rename it English Pleasure. Whatever they call it, I am glad they offer that class. I, personally, have no desire to jump. I started out as a youth riding "real hunters" but those days are long gone. I love riding English and QH's but if jumping were a requirement then I guess I'd have to be happy just watching.
I don't see what the big deal is to people who don't even show the QH circuit. I appreciate a great horse no matter what discipline it is. I may not choose to practice that discipline myself but I am not going to ridicule it either.

[Sandy M]

Actually, I "semi" agree: I think that open show "hunters" should be separated into, not "conformation" and "working", but "show hunters" and "field hunters," and field hunters should be shown, at a good gallop, over inside AND outside courses: They are the REAL hunters.

As far as "why should [open show] hunters dictate what AQHA calls it's classes..." - the open show hunters and the standards for those hunters existed long before AQHA ever thought of having HUS classes. I will concede that the rarified world of top show hunters these days bears little resemblance to the hunt field, and I wish they would show some of the brilliance they used to, rather than be automatons.. but still, they set the standard. AQHA can call the class what they want, but IMHO, as long as they call it HUS, and judge as they have up until this supposed rule change, people in open shows are still going to say "Those are NOT hunters under saddle by accepted open standards."

Yes, there are some AQHA horses that cross over successfully, but there are many many MANY more, who still do the "western pleasure under hunt seat tack" and WIN at AQHA shows. I hope that this new change will actually happen and then AQHA can truly call it's classes "HUNTER" under saddle, but if things continue as they have been, I still think it should be designated "Hunt Seat Pleasure," since the performances awarded, for the most part, do NOT conform to the standards of the open division, which has long pre-existed AQHA shows.

[Boberry]

I ask the judges what they think. So far all have told me they need more people to ride to the standard so they can place them and as soon as riders see who is winning they will change.


By the way Rugbug and Sandy need to "hack off". http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[horsebabe11]

Oh geeze, I hate to ask this since...well, all of you sound so educated in this area...but what is peanut rolling? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by KellyS:
RugBug & Sandy M...

Why does the hunter world feel they have the right to dictate what another association calls one of their classes. Just because an AQHA HUS class isn't the exact same as an USEF HUS class, why does the AQHA have to change the class name?

The "holier than thou" attitude is a bit much at times! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

When it effects me, I think I have a say. No, I don't go to AQHA shows, but the majority of open shows around here are judged by QH people and they are judging to QH standards. It's a waste of time for me to take my horse to those shows so I don't even bother.

And no, this isn't "holier than thou" but it is stating a contradictory opinion. Yes, I have an opinion on this topic...and it's a strong opinion but just because it isn't all "susie butterflies and flowers" doesn't mean it's invalid or holier than thou. How many times do you hear people say eventing dressage is not real dressage? Same type of thing here.

LMH - I agree with you the show ring hunters are not the "true" hunters from a historical context. I think I even made that point in another thread. Field hunters and show hunters are different beasts. I personally think SandyM's idea of classes for the field hunters is awesome. Give some credit to those amazing horses that just aren't fancy enough for the show ring.

Skam: Do judges have the right to not pin if there is no one that meets the standards? I know they do in USEF shows (although it's VERY, VERY rarely done). I'm sure a couple classes with no first place, etc. would wake the competitors up and have them grabbing their rule books. Or, sadly, they would complain and the judge would never get hired again.

[eclipse]

Coronado: Peanut Rolling is when a horse goes around with it's nose almost touching the ground (looks like it could roll a peanut along the floor with it!)

[KellyS]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>How many times do you hear people say eventing dressage is not real dressage? Same type of thing here. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

And just as "eventing dressage" will not be changing its name anytime soon, neither is "AQHA HUS" required to. As a former-AQHA person and now eventer, I feel like I have a good handle on this situation! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

As to judging at open shows, that's a whole 'nother topic...the judging at open shows does not necessarily reflect on how AQHA shows are judged! How many of those judges are carded AQHA judges? I think we can all argue that what is winning at the open shows does not necessarily win at rated (either AQHA or USEF) shows. Personally, that's why I don't bother with showing at open shows anymore - no consistency in the judging. Geez, when I used to do them as a QH person, I was apalled at how poorly the hunter types went around; it was a pleasant surprise to go to the "A" shows and see a much better representation of the sport! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[LMH]

RugBug-you made the point I think you are arguing against.

Field hunters and show hunters are different beasts.

USAE hunters and AQHA hunters are different beasts...or show hunters and HUS hunters---just different beasts!

The same way show hunters shouldn't have to change their name from hunters to show posers so as not to be confused with field hunters, AQHA HUS horses can keep that name as well!

[RugBug]

LMH - no one is out there calling Field Hunters "regular working hunter" or "conformation hunter" etc. AQHA has taken a class designation from show ring hunters and turned it into something else.

I guess I still feel that the point of the Hunt Seat classes within the AQHA is to demonstrate the versatility of the horse. I don't think the true versatility is showing through when the only thing that is occurring is a tack change and a lenghtened stride.

There's also some feelings of the destruction of the breed because people are trying to meet certain requirements...didn't a previous poster just mention her QH that has so much TB in it you can hardly find the QH lineage? That to me is wrong. If you have to infuse so much TB to get a certain look, maybe accepting a different standard (and calling it something else) is a good idea.

[MeanderCreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Other:
Wow, ok, it's late and I'm tired. I just put two and two together-we're talking auctions here, eh? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_redface.gif Never claimed to be the brightest bulb in the box... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yep, public auctions. I personally believe in published sale results very much. I can use them as a tool to help price similar horses off the farm and to see what bloodlines are selling well and which ones aren't and decide which sales I might be interested in consigning to based on past results. This is why I LOVE National Equine - they post results RIGHT AWAY. Professional Auction does ..... eventually post them but they take awhile. I understand the reason why, but disagree - sorry guys!

[Sandy M]

Semi-amusing and somewhat relevant as to what is a "hunter." A looooong time ago (I am VERY old....), a horse trial in which I used to participate simultaneously ran hunter classes. One was "on the outside course" and you could double enter the horse trial at whatever level/height you ordinarily competed and the round would count for both the horse trial and the corresponding hunter class. It was pretty funny, in that you'd see one rider in cross-country colors, followed by another in formal hunter attire. There were different classes - outside course/handy/regular/HUS for each hunter division and a championship award. Now, since most of the competitors were eventers, few had any trouble with the outside course, though they had to ride it a little more quietly (?) than they might otherwise have done, but SOME people came with their show hunters (not eventers), and heavens the fuss!!! They didn't want to DO the outside course, but were told they had to if they wanted to be considered for the championship in their respective divisions. And then - horrors! - the open class required them to jump OUT OF THE ARENA over a rail/ditch fence, and back in over a BANK!!! You never heard such carrying on. I don't know what they had expected, since the entry blank clearly stated the conditions. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

My jaw is dropped at the statement that the OPEN show standards are poorer than AQHA standards! Wow, I guess Strapless couldn't cut it in AQHA competition, eh? (were she a QH). Over the years, my Apps (and ApHC breed shows are judged pretty much the same as AQHA shows - the awards just aren't as good http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif) kicked butt over fences at breed shows, but barely got looked at in HUS because they carried themselves like open division horses. In Open shows, they placed consistently, spots and all. If you're talking about open schooling shows, well, that, as someone above mentioned, can be totally confusing - someone gets an AQHA judge and the open competitors are mad, and vice versa.

[KellyS]

Open as in not USEF or breed association recognized! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Sorry for the confusion Sandy M!

At least in this area, "open shows" refers to any show that does not run under the rules of a national organization. Hence, judges are not necessarily qualified to judge (no credentials from a national organization), no drug testing...somedays it can be a bit of a free for all! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And yes, depending on the judge's background (or lack of http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif), someone usually goes home unhappy from either the hunter crowd or the QH crowd. One of my best friend's daughter just finished competing at the State 4-H Horse Show (GA) - she was entered in the English Showmanship class and had an absolutely fabulous performance (she was 2nd in the Western Showmanship). After getting the gate from the judge, she found out that this "hunter" judge wouldn't place any horse whose mane was on the left side no matter how well they performed. It said so right in the judge's written notes! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Sandy M]

WHOA!!! Glad that judge isn't a dressage judge!! My app's (2nd gen. TBX) mane falls to the left no matter WHAT I do to train it over to the other side, so I've long since given up. I get nice comments from most judges about my braid job - which is on the LEFT. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif Guess I better not take him into any "showmanship" classes. ROFLOL

[Bea]

Awww....Rug Bug, I think you should let them have their AQHA HUS. Many disciplines have completely different worlds within them. Anyway, think of your beautiful scenery. I don't look at your mountains (are those mountains in the background of your photos?) and say they're not mountains because they don't look like my mountains. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

And regarding TBs, it's how most of the famous QH bloodlines were created. Little late for us to start complaining about that now. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Awww....Rug Bug, I think you should let them have their AQHA HUS. Many disciplines have completely different worlds within them. Anyway, think of your beautiful scenery. I don't look at your mountains (are those mountains in the background of your photos?) and say they're not mountains because they don't look like my mountains. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, Bea. I know nothing I say or think is going to change anything. I just like to be able to say it now and then. I've got quite a few unpopular opinions regarding QH/APHA's (which I love) and will share them occassionaly even if it makes people dislike me. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

And really, those aren't mountains in my pictures. If I can ride my bike over them, which I have, they are DEFINITELY not mountains. Let's just call them hills and you can have your mountains. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Sandy M]

Believe me, RugBug, anything you say is sweetness and light compared to the things I say about ApHC as it steadily works to destroy my favorite breed. There's nothing wrong with a good (i.e., FOUNDATION line QH), but the ApHC seems determined to turn ALL Appaloosas (which should NOT be QHs) into (un)colored QHs. It stuns me that they will register horses that are 7/8th QH and have NO color, characteristics, or anything resembling Appaloosa conformation, and call them Appaloosas. They defend themselves by saying they are "improving" the breed (by destroying it?) because of those old, ugly Apps, but look at this website, and two stallions that are in the 90th percentile of Foundation Appaloosa breeding. I don't think anyone needs to "improve" them! (and they are NOT built like QHs):

Confetti (http://www.confettifarms.com)

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Flash44:
Maybe the "H" in HUS means hilltopper under saddle? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Well I did say I think QH are the finest sport horses in the world and, within the breed standards, you can get the kind of shoulder and hip for a knee snapping, crack back effort over the jump.

I showed breed shows alot and you do run into a few things you do not in an open show.
First off, 30% or so of the score is based on breed characteristics and conformation. So you can have a better round but lose to another with better conformation and type..because it is a breed show-showcasing conformation and type.
Second you get judges who are career team ropers or something...they just have no use for the postage stamp saddle. You can't change them..you can try to educate the younger judges but that will take some time.
Third, maybe they are trying to do too much asking a judge to cover everything from HUS to Hunter Eq to Reining to Western Horsemanship to Team Penning to Heading and Heeling to Cutting to Pleasure Driving.
I think that is a real problem..these guys are GREAT horseman and women but they cannot know everthing about every division they have to judge in a typical QH show.

If you want to concentrate on your horse's performance in a specific division? Go open.
If you have a nice individual that reflects breed type and conformation and is decent in whatever you are doing, go breed show.

Flame suit on...about that picture of the nice grey???
Well this topic was about peanut rolling WP horses and the new attempt to keep their polls above the withers or somewhere close anyway.

Well, this HUS has his poll about at the rider's knee. Let him come up in front and power off the hind end as nature intended and maybe that rear foot will track up somewhere near the girth as it should in one we look at for over fences work..instead of stabbing way short as it is now.
Good reach in front despite that..this is a nice horse I'd want to look at further...and probably would see used well, maybe use it myself, in HUS at a QH show based on overall type and quality.

But he'd never make a 12 foot line the way he's going now.

[Other]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:

Flame suit on...about that picture of the nice grey???
Well this topic was about peanut rolling WP horses and the new attempt to keep their polls above the withers or somewhere close anyway.

Well, this HUS has his poll about at the rider's knee.

But he'd never make a 12 foot line the way he's going now. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, I'm glad someone else mentioned this as well. I didn't want to offend anyone, but really folks...I think this horse is adorable, (and I am really NOT a QH person), but come on.

If this was a demonstration of the demise of the "peanut roller" days, the situation seems pretty hopeless to me http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif. While it doesn't look like he is drugged out of his gourd with his nose on the ground, his poll is still quite low (and lower than his withers). Any better examples of this new type anyone would care to share with us ignorant non AQHA folk??

By the way, those pics on the Confetti website are adorable!! I want a big tall leggy App jumper

On an entirely different note, will anyone shed any light on the reasoning behind not circling/moving out of ones position on the rail??

[HiJumpGrrl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Other:
By the way, those pics on the Confetti website are adorable!! I want a big tall leggy App jumper <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
i LOFF him, and i want one so badly. wappaloosas, although more TB than app anymore, are also very cool.

i think the theory behind not circling is that it's distracting and takes away from the whole "quiet way of going" thing. as in, if your horse can't move as slowly as everyone else's, it must be hot.

[findeight]

I actually still am a QH person at heart..and this is way to low in front for me.
You don't circle off the rail because nobody ever circles off the rail. Winners never circle off the rail.
Someday a nice horse will circle off the rail and win..then all will circle endlessly because one did and won.
We are all a bunch of lemmings in the ring http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[katarine]

That grey is just down the road from me. Wonder if they'll take a check?

65K for a horse that sold for a QUARTER of that a few months back? New definition of quarter horse, I guess.

And yes, the big pretty grey looks NOTHING like what a QH should, and he'd be happier with his damn nose OUT OF THE DIRT.

[Plumcreek]

The problem with AQHA HUS is that the rule book is well written for a true hunter type. Horses with heads consistently below level / behind vertical are SUPPOSED to be, according to the rulebook, DISQUALIFIED (gated). Instead, they win. If I get caught in a bit check using an illegal bit, I am disqualified. The horse next to me with an equally illegal low head set wins. That is not fair. The judges are not following clearly stated rules, and that is why AQHA is taking notice of the problem. Exhibitors have to be able to rely on the rule book.

Even though judges have caused the problem, they currently can only judge what is in front of them. The challenge is to now get the word out quicklty for exhibitors to raise head sets as judges do not want to be forced to disqualiify good horses with low heads. The gray SBW horse in the photo is a good example of what is winning currently. If AQHA is successful at convincing judges to follow the rulebook, he would not win with out raising his head.

The big deal, to me, is that I would like to show my horses, especially babies, in the HUS as well as the Hunter Hack and Green Working Hunter classes. The rule book is written for that progression, but currently you cannot be competative in both areas at once. The Hunter Hack class has become the defacto flat class for the horses that jump. HH horses do look a lot more like true hunters. Winning HH and Working Hunters can and do cross enter into USEF AA shows without much frame modification.

I really like the USEF shows, and my 16-3 Appx. QH has been Champion and Reserve at some nice AA shows (What a thrill! - some of the horses cost more than my house!). The problem for me is that I am getting older, and do not see myself jumping forever. AQHA shows offer more to do without leaving the ground, so I am taking the time to lobby for change to make it "the way it otta be".

[wlrottge]

Bit late getting into this, but I always thought the idea behind "Hunter" was the ability to jump at almost any time. In my mind, I would think that if they want to call it "hunt" anything, they would stick to that ideal. It would be like calling a red car blue. It's not really hunt anything, but they call it that b/c it's under english tack.

Here in Alabama, the HUS class horses and riders (open or aqha)look and ride the same as the WP horses, just different tack. Neither are a truly useful frame/carrage, but that's what wins.

IMHO, the gray on dream horse is way to heavy on the foreheand w/no engagement from behind. Far from being balanced.

Our horses are TB's (I would never have another breed) and we tried a few open shows, but you can't win, so we quit and found eventing to be much more suitable.

Flame on.......

[Sandy M]

HiJumpGirl - While JG Appaloosa Sport Horses freely stands to and breeds for sale App/TB crosses, if you check out the pedigrees on their web site, you should note that of their FIVE stallions, only ONE is a straight App X TB cross (Wap's Applause). All the rest are heavily foundation Appaloosa bred, as are both the stallions at Confetti Farms (Choklate Confetti and Butterwap Confetti). Since JG also line breeds, many of the babies it produces are also more App than TB. The other notable "WAP" horse, Wap Spotted, a son of Wap Spot 2, was out of an Appaloosa mare and is also more App than TB (if he has any TB in his pedigree at all - I don't THINK he does, but I'm not sure.)

[Boberry]

Rugbug "Field hunters and show hunters are different beasts. I personally think SandyM's idea of classes for the field hunters is awesome. Give some credit to those amazing horses that just aren't fancy enough for the show ring."

Actually some of the fanciest showhunters came from the hunt field. The hunt field is a great way to get jumping mileage in a group setting and teach a horse to be more athletic. And actually Regular Working Hunters were the field hunters and the Confirmation Hunters were the "show hunter". The USEF changes constantly like any other association.

AQHA Judges can opt not to pin. What I have seen is they ask the "obvious offender" to leave and the class seems to straighten up, http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif.

Not all Hus horses are TB's with AQHA numbers. The sad thing I see is people starving the horse to look "leggy" like a "TB" instead.

It would be nice to see "all prices for horses published" This way the consumer is more protected.

The grey horse is an example of what the AQHA is trying to change. Yes he should be more level and under himself. The AQHA is actually giving free clinics at shows to show people what they are looking for to help the change. They also sent out an article in the QH Journal giving picture examples of what is correct and not correct. I am glad to see they are taking such a strong initiative to change. They also want to add Dressage to the AQHA point system, but instead of incorporating it into a class at an AQHA show, they are letting USDF points count in their association.

[Sandy M]

Skam- I realize that "working Hunters" was originally a class for horses that actually hunted in the field, but these days, most "working hunters" are just horses that weren't flawless enough in conformation to be conformation horses, or who have some old scar or injury (like an old, cold, bow) that disqualifies them from conformation classes. The working hunters are often as much "8 perfect fences in a perfectly groomed arena automatons" as any other hunter division. (Not that getting 8 perfect fences is necessarily easy!). Brilliance is rarely rewarded any more, and shows that have classes over an outside course, where you would really gallop, are almost non-existent.

[HiJumpGrrl]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
HiJumpGirl - ...JG Appaloosa Sport Horses... are heavily foundation Appaloosa bred, as are both the stallions at Confetti Farms (Choklate Confetti and Butterwap Confetti)... The other notable "WAP" horse, Wap Spotted, a son of Wap Spot 2, was out of an Appaloosa mare and is also more App than TB... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

i must have said that wrong, then. I really enjoy the sporty appaloosa, EITHER the tall foundation bred type (confetti and wap spotted included), OR the tb and wb crosses. The Apps I've seen that are little more than QH with (or without!) color tend to be built downhill and move on the forehand in much the manner we are discussing here.

when I am in the market for a horse in a couple years, it sounds like you're someone I should be asking for help and opinions! Thanks for setting me straight, Sandy M http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sandy M]

Yeah, Hi-jump, finding a REAL Appaloosa is hard to do. Even my present guy has a high percentage of TB in him, though my previously horses were heavily foundation bred, 16 hands and 16.3 respectively, and very successful as both eventers and H/J. (Neither was particularly fond of dressage http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif)

If and when I start looking again, I think it will be with Confetti Farms, since they are out here on the west coast. I had even considered "breeding my own," and a friend offered her lovely TB mare to breed to Oreo, but the mare died. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

So I'm just going on with my guy for the time being (whom I could NEVER sell). He's 16.2, full color, and very App in personality, if somewhat TB in conformation. The breed registry founders did not like the way the breed was going when the breeders started with the HEAVY influx of QH blood, but I don't know if it can be stopped at this point. The Foundation Appaloosa Horse Registry preserves some of the old bloodlines. I understand (and someone from Canada who is knowledgeable would know better than I), that the Canadian Government has told the Canadian Appaloosa registry that they better get "more Appaloosa in their Appaloosas" or the accreditation as a breed society will be yanked. The result: The ApHC won't accept Canadian-registered horses any more. At least that's what I heard. So.... to register with ApHC, please bring on your QHs, I guess. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif If it's 7/8 QH but has one App parent in there somewhere, they're happy to call it an App (I exaggerate, but there are some horses that are all but "purebred" QH registered as Appaloosas). Nothing wrong with a good QH, but they ain't Apps!

[RugBug]

Sandy M:

Because I love to post pictures and happen to get most of my education from an App (although breeding was unknown I remember the owner always telling me she went directly back to the Nez Perce (sp?) Indian ponies). This mare was pretty much retired when I got to her but hated it. She had done mostly dressage, but that didn't stop her from teaching me the ropes over fences. She was so cool and knew way more than my little brain was ready for. I have pictures of her in beautiful self carriage at a time when I didn't even know what bending really entailed.

Nug and I (http://community.webshots.com/photo/77624590/92895192AVuFxn)

[Sandy M]

Very nice, RugBug. Definitely looks a foundation type - varnish roan/blanket, good bone.

My first two were indestructible, lived to be 25 and 27, respectively, and were 100% sound even at the time of their death(s). My present guy is a little iffier in the legs (sadly, the TB influence), but he is 18 and still going strong. He's never had "breakdown" type lamenesses, but definite injuries - falling on cement, etc., from which he always has bounced back. I just baby him a little more these days (ice his legs after hard work outs, etc.)

Love them Apps!!!

[Plumcreek]

The AQHA notice about Hunter Under Saddle is up on their web site:AQHA statement (http://www.aqha.com/showing/063004_hunterundersaddle.html)

[Boberry]

SandyM-Even today horses are coming from the huntfield into the show ring and doing well. An outside course does not equate field hunter, although more shows should have them if people want to call themselves "hunter" period. I mean "hunter" does imply outdoors. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I think this is another link. But if I was going to hilltop, a quiet ground covering solid citizen is my first choice and I think the AQHA is going for that standard.

The AQHA is aware and responding to peanut rollers. Alex Ross is doing an awesome job, especially since he just took over the job.

[LawnOrnamentLuvr]

I'm no expert, by any means, on either hunter shows or HUS classes. I've been around hunters for most of my adult horse years. I have several friends who do the HUS either in AQHA or open shows.
The first time I ever saw a HUS class at an open show, I was absolutely flabbergasted. I expected to see the same type of class at the QH/open show as I would at a B or A hunter show. I saw almost zero similiarities, one of the few being an English saddle.
I'm not saying one is better than the other, but if the AQHA wants to show the versatility of it's wonderful horses.. it needs to set a standard that more closely resembles a Hunter show. Even the examples of horses with a more moderate headset wouldn't exactly clean up at a Hunter show. I'm not saying they couldn't.. but a hunter is not a peanut roller.
I read the AQHA statement and I applaud them, but I too don't have much faith in them. My friends who show in AQHA shows don't either.
One of my friends crosses over from hunter shows to open shows and does the HUS classes there. At one show (open, but mostly QH types there), the class was asked to do a pattern. The class rules were posted by the arena.. it said that flying lead changes were optional, simple changes were okay. Well since my friend has a TB well-versed in lead changes, she did them flying. Guess what? She got the gate. The judge's explanation was that she was "showing off". This WAS an open show.. so I'm not attacking the AQHA world. However, the judge was an AQHA judge.
Anyway,just some things I've seen and I'd thought I'd post them as food for thought.
QHs are really wonderful horses, I love them and I'd like to have one.

Lawny

[Plumcreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I read the AQHA statement and I applaud them, but I too don't have much faith in them. My friends who show in AQHA shows don't either.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Time will tell. Actually, not much time, as the AQHA Youth World Show is in early August and the judging there will set the standard for the big fall shows, which set the standard for the next year.

[Sandy M]

Skam - "Hunter doesn't imply outdoor.." It DOESN'T?????? Of course, "hunter" for the purpose of horse shows has evolved into an arena class to demonstrate "hunter like" form over "natural" fences... but the origin is from hunter riders, i.e., people who fox hunted, to show off their horses, so of course it's origin IS "outdoor." I know, I know, semantics.... but I sure would like to go to a local "A" show and asked how many people in the hunter classes actually HUNT. I know in my area, the answer would probably be..... NONE. Perhaps over on the Peninsula south of San Francisco, home of the Los Altos Hunt, there might be a few horses that both show as hunters and actually hunt, but I doubt there are very many.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Guess what? She got the gate. The judge's explanation was that she was "showing off". <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Isn't a "horse show" about "showing off"?

[Plumcreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
.. but I sure would like to go to a local "A" show and asked how many people in the hunter classes actually HUNT. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ok, evolution happens. Large tracts of open ground to hunt on have mostly disappeared within driving distance of population centers. Dressage and Three Day Eventing, I believe, were supposed to demonstrate the complete training of a military horse. How many horses or riders in those events have served in the military cavalry? Reining is supposed to demonstrate handiness in working a cow - there are no cows at the reining shows.

So what would you call a show hunter class to separate it from jumpers?

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> .... but I sure would like to go to a local "A" show and asked how many people in the hunter classes actually HUNT. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Around here, you would get quite a few. For instance I am pretty sure the both Betty Oare and Snowden Clark hunt.

[Plumcreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> .... but I sure would like to go to a local "A" show and asked how many people in the hunter classes actually HUNT. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Around here, you would get quite a few. For instance I am pretty sure the both Betty Oare and Snowden Clark hunt. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but I bet they don't go to A shows with the SAME HORSES that they hunt.

[Sandy M]

Skam - Sorry, misread. you did say "outdoors." Me Bad.

Janet, Plum - after I posted, I thought.... y'know, back east, specially in VA, MD, etc. I'll bet there ARE a fair number of "hunters" that show and hunt. But out here in California.... I would guess very few show hunters ever see the hunt field. Now, I have both hunted/evented/shown as a hunter the same horse... but I didn't do "A" shows, only "B" and "C" shows, and on Apps, at that, so I don't think "I" count. ROFLOL

Plum - But reiners also show in working cowhorse where they DO have to work a cow - dry work(pattern) then cow work.

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Plumcreek:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Janet:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> .... but I sure would like to go to a local "A" show and asked how many people in the hunter classes actually HUNT. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Around here, you would get quite a few. For instance I am pretty sure the both Betty Oare and Snowden Clark hunt. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, but I bet they don't go to A shows with the SAME HORSES that they hunt. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Someone posted a picture of Betty getting ready to go out...on a big ole Belgian (cross probably, but it was BIG). Of course, that doesn't mean she doesn't take her show horses out, but then again....

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Yes, but I bet they don't go to A shows with the SAME HORSES that they hunt. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Perhaps not. They both have extensive strings, and have specialists for both. But some of the "one horse" owners do.

And conversely, I know that the horse who was the VHSA high point A/O hunter a couple of years ago was hunted before she hit the show ring (though, I think, with a different rider).

[jvanrens]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
Plum - But reiners also show in working cowhorse where they DO have to work a cow - dry work(pattern) then cow work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually no they don't (or I should say they all don't http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). In Working Cowhorse reining is the dry part of the class with no cows. In Reining classes, they don't work cows, they just rein.

Jo

[Boberry]

I've seen a couple HUS horses that would win in any venue. And some USEF judges are AQHA judges too, and not all AQHA judges are approved to judge the HUS classes. I agree with Plum Creek that after afew big shows the tides can change.

[Bea]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jvanrens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
Plum - But reiners also show in working cowhorse where they DO have to work a cow - dry work(pattern) then cow work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually no they don't (or I should say they all don't http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). In Working Cowhorse reining is the dry part of the class with no cows. In Reining classes, they don't work cows, they just rein.

Jo <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The name of the discipline being searched for here is Reined Cow Horse, that's the only one which includes herd work, fence work, and a reining pattern. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I think Plumcreek's point is valid, that reining is now far from its roots.

[Plumcreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Skam:
I've seen a couple HUS horses that would win in any venue. And some USEF judges are AQHA judges too, and not all AQHA judges are approved to judge the HUS classes. I agree with Plum Creek that after afew big shows the tides can change. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Yes, some HUS horses can win anywhere: the great Regal Lark with Shane George up was Champion at the largest USEF shows at 1st and 2nd year GWH and in almost the same time frame, won the Reserve Superhorse at the AQHA World Show.

All AQHA approved judges are approved to judge ALL the classes, HUS included, (part of the problem - my working hunter round has been judges by more than one cow cutter). Strangely, it is the new Restricted Judges (many USEF) that can judge their specialty - over fences classes, but NOT Hunter Under Saddle (no fences).

Yes, whatever type of HUS horses win at the Youth World and the Congress, that will be the standard copied by exhibitors at the weekend shows next year. It is really up to the judges, to now set that standard so they cannot say, in the future, that they have no correct horses to place. This will take judge courage!!

[jvanrens]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by jvanrens:
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Sandy M:
Plum - But reiners also show in working cowhorse where they DO have to work a cow - dry work(pattern) then cow work. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Actually no they don't (or I should say they all don't http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif). In Working Cowhorse reining is the dry part of the class with no cows. In Reining classes, they don't work cows, they just rein.

Jo <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The name of the discipline being searched for here is Reined Cow Horse, that's the only one which includes herd work, fence work, and a reining pattern. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

I think Plumcreek's point is valid, that reining is now far from its roots. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I wasn't arguing Plumcreek's point about that! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif But what I showed in the quote by Sandy that said that Reiners show in Working Cowhorse! I know many a Reiner that has never set foot in the WC class. It's (WC) a rarely seen class in this neck of the woods, while Reining isn't. Does that clarify my comment somewhat? Maybe I misread Sandy's point... maybe I should go back and check, I might have been half asleep when I posted my original response. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

Jo

[Bea]

Jo, I was just enjoying having a splitting hairs moment. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif No cows in NYS either so here too reiners stick to reining. But I see Sandy's in CA which is big WC and Reined Cow Horse country so she probably sees cross-over. And then I remembered there's the new, and I hear growing hugely, Ranch Horse class. Which might have cowhorse and pattern work?

[jvanrens]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Jo, I was just enjoying having a splitting hairs moment. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif No cows in NYS either so here too reiners stick to reining. But I see Sandy's in CA which is big WC and Reined Cow Horse country so she probably sees cross-over. And then I remembered there's the new, and I hear growing hugely, Ranch Horse class. Which might have cowhorse and pattern work? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just figured your original post out Bea! http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif After a couple hours of cleaning stalls and fixing the pigs water nipple, your post became clear to me. Go figure! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif I'm sure there are folks who cross over depending on which part of the country you're in. The Ranch Horse class looks interesting, though I'm sure my mare wouldn't be too enthused if I decided to take it up. I think she'd be concerned most about my lack of skill with a rope! I'd likely rope her quicker than any calf. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

Jo

[Bea]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>The Ranch Horse class looks interesting <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
I think so too. And from what I hear it's achieving its goal and bringing back the true ranch/QH people who got left behind with all the specialization. Which I think is great!
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>I think she'd be concerned most about my lack of skill with a rope! I'd likely rope her quicker than any calf. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
My fear is through some fluke I'd actually get a rope around a cow's neck. And then I'd have to dally! How would I be able to post so much on COTH without all ten digits.

Anyway, sorry folks to get off topic. On the other hand, no one ever complains about rope horse's heads being too low. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif Maybe AQHA needs to issue a directive about getting them lower so tiedowns could be banned. Poor horses, they just can't win with us humans around.

[findeight]

Actually the powers that be in the old time Calfornia community turn their nose up at Reiners and feel too many trainers are tying the head to the ankles to break them over and back for the sliding stop. Something that creates that blasted low poll and false collection thru the sit down and slide phase.

Working Cow Horse, or Reined Cow Horse in some independent registries, asks a horse to work a "dry" pattern-that printed pattern much like a test. The same horse must then work a single, random cow at speed up and down the side of the arena and turn it into the wall a minimum of once each direction.
They then do center work...circling the cow first one way, then another in a figure eight pattern where the horse must duck to the new outside shoulder of the steer when they change direction. These are 2 year old and up steers, big and stupid.
The greats bury themselves into the arena wall for the turnbacks and circle the cow to a standstill using their shoulder to bump it into submission.

Too bad a horse that has lived with head tied to ankles to lower the poll on the stop has a snowballs chance in Cancun to do any of this.

OH...and the NRHA, NCHA, NRCHA and others have NO drugging policy.

My friends in this discipline are in California, where the state has maintained an independent drug testing system for about 30 years..so they do not rely upon the needle.

[Bea]

Big oops. And a bow to greater minds than mine. As they already know Sandy and findeight are absolutely right, I see on the AQHA website that it AQHA Working Cowhorse does include a reining pattern. My sincere apologies. Shows how much a New Yorker like me knows!

findeight, I'm very interested in this method of tieing a horse's head to its ankles to get a low poll on the stop. Can you describe it for me in greater detail. I'm in no way arguing that I don't believe it exists. I just can't picture how it works, or achieves what it's used for. I just need more description to understand what they think it does.

[camohn]

The last u/s hunter show I rode in was 5 or 6 years ago. I had a gelding who was supposed to be a dressage horse but decided he really liked to jump much better. I took him to a couple hunter shows to try and sell him as a hunter/jumper instead. He was of the solid but less fancy variety in looks. People told me "he would make a lovely field hunter, but not a show hunter. No not at all." I got some humor out of the fact he would make a good "real" hunter though! Reading the posts about field/fox hunters not having the same horses in the showring brought that back to me. The story does get better, though. One show was a benefit show for some charity. The hunter class was in a grass ring. It rained the night before. I do not own a nice sand ring. I ride in my pasture or hay field. Well.......all the nice fancy TBs were slip slidin' around on the wet grass. One miffed horse dumped his rider. I had the only guy happily galumping around on the wet grass. We came home with a blue ribbon. Would we win in a nice sand arena another day? Probably not....but it felt good http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif. Not everything has changed since then. I now have a fancy 3 year old TB colt.....and he still gets ridden (barefoot!) on the grass. Now that he is in regular work he is getting a little footsore and I do have to put him in front shoes....but my trainer told me we've had a good run at barefoot. As TBs go no one can say he has bad feet. (PS: Mr. Frumpy sold to an event rider where I hear he is doing well.)

[cookie-monster]

Tying their head to their ankles??

[jvanrens]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by cookie-monster:
Tying their head to their ankles?? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

CM I was thinking the same thing! Now hocks I've heard of (though not so much in the reining end of things).

Findeight could you clarify please?

Jo

[findeight]

Just a generality lumping all kinds of draw rein and pulley type devices that lever the head down by attaching it somewhere else...ludicrous when you consider how the 3 hinges of a horse's body work in concert. When the hips are bent down and deep into the ground, the shoulder and poll must compensate by rising. Some downward flex in the neck just ahead of the shoulder does act like a pendulum to balance the rising shoulder driving the dropping hip deeper into the ground but the poll has to stay level...NOT DROPPED as is becoming fashionable in the Reining these days.
Actually very similar to using a tight draw rein on a Hunter to force the neck to get low and reachy...it works only to the detriment of everything behind the poll.

Actually a Reiner in a hard, sliding stop is very similar to a Hunter/Jumper at take off in how the body is arranged and the flexibility and power off those three hinges-poll, wither area and hip(the area above the flank to be more specific).

All three work in concert and restricting one throws the others off.

Hope this makes sense..hardly Dressage theory in wording. Old time cowboy logic as was taught to me way back when.
Still serves, I think.

[Bea]

Thanks findeight, I see what you're saying. And can think of a CA BNT reining horse trainer who, in my amateur opinion, uses draw reins too much. Perhaps it's the same one your friends know.

And yes, from what little reining history I know, horses are now stopping with their heads much lower. Strangely enough I thought it was from when reining became dominated by the west coast cow horse people. When it was an East Coast thing, stops were much, much longer with the heads far higher. Skaters I think was the slang term and they had contests on who slide the furthest. When the west coasters started to dominate reining they employed shorter deeper stops more suitable for turning a cow.

And you're right I do see horses stopping with their polls very low. And I agree the mechanics don't make as much sense. In my experience I haven't seen judges marking those stops higher on that basis alone. I do see them nowadays marking deeper stops higher than the more traditional type of stop.

Anyway, my next question is who is the powers that be that you mentioned.

[Plumcreek]

It has been 10 years since I have done reining. I always thought the reiner style evolution went like this:

Style 1 - The California Stock Horses/Bridle Horses I watched as a kid had to stop deep because they generally had deep, not well prepared ground. Plus, many of them also worked cows on the fence. The riders would over-and-under with the romal during the run-down and then haul on the face into a stiff stop with front feet braced. Benny Guitron was the first I saw do a stop with front feet running.

Style 2 - I went to the Ohio Congress in 1973 and was in awe of the "skaters". They had ground prepared to the nines - hard base and a thin layer of fluff on top. The horses "ran" in front and skated behind, but were fairly upright. They did slide a loooog ways! The horses also were a lighter frame (thinking of the Greyhound horses here) than the California horses.

Style 3 and present - I think Hollywood Dun It, with Tim McQuay, was the first horse to stop way deep into the ground with head low, and still slide a ways. That horse is a tank! I believe that his strength of body enabled him to stop so deep and hard, and trainers have been trying to emulate that winning style since. But not all horses have the physical strength to stop like that, which begets the training gimmicks. Also, winning horses now have to stop on a loose rein which allows the good ones to lower their head and neck. I was able to ride with Monty Foreman and his son, Gary, at one point. Their "calf roping stops on ridden horses" were exactly like the stops we see today. Unfortunately, Gary trained during the "skating" era.

[Tha Ridge]

I'll have to pay a visit to the AQHYA show this year and see if anything's changed this year. It's been painful for me to watch their Hunters the past few years.

I agree with Plumcreek's third point - Hollywood Dun It is an astoundingly strong horse and since he has proven himself the best of the best, all trainers are going to emulate his style. I prefer Smart Like Juice, myself though. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Sandy M]

Seems to me, the snaffle bit futurities do a reining pattern, herd work, and single cow work along the fence and figure 8, just like reiners. Some horses go on from that to cutting, others become reiners. Other horses are started as reiners and may or may not cross over into the Working Cow Horse/Ranch horse classes as well.

I understand it has changed in England, but I was informed that it used to be that one did not show over fences in the "hunter" division at English shows, only on the flat (and the judge usually rides several of the top placed horses himself before making his final placings.) In order to show as a "hunter" you had to be a member of a recognized hunt. I understand that has changed and they now have over fences classes for hunters at (some?)shows. Whether there is still a requirement that horses shown as hunters actually hunt, I do not know. The alternative way to "show" hunters was/is "hunter trials" as a means of showing hunters over fences - i.e., outdoor courses across-country. Of course, we do have Hunter Trials here in the US, and as noted each year in CHronicle of the Horse, awards are given to champion hunters "in the field."

[Plumcreek]

Tha Ridge,
If you do go to the AQHYA show, please report back on the HUS judging!!

[Bea]

Plumcreek, great reining history. It really shows how trainers have to go with trends or get left behind, doesn't it?

[Tha Ridge]

I'll probably be able to make it to at least one of the HUS finals. I'll try to take some photos too.

[LMH]

Just for the record-the peanut roller days live on.

Today I went to watch the "Big A" QH show in Conyers---watched the HUS and Equitation, watched some WP horses schooling.

During the HUS they ANNOUNCED that head set rules, gaits and impulsion rules would apply...the winners? The lowest most still headset.

Looks like it ain't over til its over

[Plumcreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:

During the HUS they ANNOUNCED that head set rules, gaits and impulsion rules would apply...the winners? The lowest most still headset.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Goog grief! I know AQHA is very serious about this. We who care may have to video tape the class and the judge and mail it in.

[VWScully]

I've been following this thread for a while now with some interest http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif I show AQHA Hunt seat as well as "regular" Hunter and my horse pretty much goes the same on both circuits. However, my goal is more showing over fences on the 'regular' circuit since our local QH circuit doesn't have many O/F classes.
What I have noticed at least in our area, is that most of the Novice Horses go with a more "normal" headset and gait than the Pro horses. (I show Nov. Am.) Maybe it's cuz we are more concerned with riding properly and having fun rather than winning at all costs? I don't know about everyone else, but that's how I do it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif
Anyway, my horse goes like this in the HUS:
Porter in the HUS at Black's (http://www.siegconsulting.com/Equestrian/images/porterhusatmay1bec.jpg)
(In that pic, his nose is a wee bit behind the vertical - likely cuz I just gave him a half-halt, but you will notice a slight loop in the rein and he naturally likes to go long and low.
He also is a really cute jumper; and just jumped his first 3' fence the other day http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif ) Of course, he knocked the rail down the first time, but was a little more careful the 2nd time http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif)
Porter's 1st attempt at 3' http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif (http://www.siegconsulting.com/Equestrian/images/porterjumpbigger.jpg)

Well, I guess what I'm trying to say is; that I like to be able to do both circuits with my Appendix and not have to worry about changing the way he goes; he's a Hunter and AQHA should start to have the Hunters LOOK like Hunters so that's how I ride him! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Bea]

Whew....plumcreek, just saw the change in thread title, and of course love it. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif AND, saw a photo of a stop that illustrates findeight's point very well of the poll far below the withers. Might have to do some scanning tomorrow and posting. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif

[Patchouli]

Here is a link to look at a HUS horse in action at a large National level AQHA show. Download the video clip on the link.

HUS Class video clip (http://aqha.equine.com/showhorse.asp?horseid=641561)

I really hope they not only make the changes but implement them as well. But, I won't hold my breath. It is a shame, QH are such wonderful horses. Maybe more people would want to be part of the QH shows if they started changing their ways.

[LMH]

Good link Patchouli---not sure-but sure does seem to me we got some poll below the withers...this one is actually carrying his head higher than the others in the background....

And if you really want an education, hang out by the warm-up "pen" and watch how to get desired head set.

[Boberry]

There is a big QH show this weekend (NC Quarter Horse Jamboree) that usually has the big hitters in it. One of the judges is a task force member for changing HUS. I'll go watch and see how they pin. My horse has an abcess so I can not show, bummer. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

[LightRanch]

Actually, Skam, the NC Jamboree does not have many 'big hitters' there anymore. I looked up the results from last year and there were 5 in the Amateur HUS and 11 in the Jr. HUS. There is a conflict with a big futurity in MS so that draws the 'big hitters' now. However, I will be there showing in the HUS although my horse has generally one of the more level headsets in the pen. Carla W. will not be judging the HUS since she lives too close to Raleigh to judge anything other than timed events. I imagine she will be judging barrels and poles. She is also doing a clinic of some sort but I don't think it is HUS. The point of my post is I don't think this will be a good representation of what goes on at the larger shows.

[Boberry]

Good Luck at the show! I'll be cheering for level headsets. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[LawnOrnamentLuvr]

I watched the video too, it looks like the black horse is also four-beating to some extent at the canter.
BTW, 'scuse my ignorance, but what is with all those banged tails? Are they extensions? They sure don't look natural.

Lawny

[Patchouli]

Extensions

[Mardi]

Interesting video...
doesn't seem that the class should have the word "hunter" in it. Can you imagine any of them out in the hunt field with their heads so low and the riders with no secure seat ? http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/no.gif

The class/division should just be called "Western Horses in English Tack" http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[snokat]

They're not all extensions. I used to board at a QH show barn before extensions were all the rage, and they were obsessive about tail conditioning and tailbags, and NEVER, EVER, getting a comb or a brush anywhere near a tail. They would pick them out hair by hair, and they'd bang the hunters, and let the western horses' tails drag the ground. I have to admit, they sure knew how to grow 'em full and long!

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
"Thanks findeight, I see what you're saying. And can think of a CA BNT reining horse trainer who, in my amateur opinion, uses draw reins too much. Perhaps it's the same one your friends know".

"Anyway, my next question is who is the powers that be that you mentioned." <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Sorry didn't get back here till late and no names. More then one on the draw rein thing and many know who can use them occasionally and who abuses them..and their stock.
But the initials RR and GW plus the fact their children married will tell you what you want to know if you, indeed, are familiar with the whole Reined Cow Horse thing.
One of my closest friends of over 30 years has cracked the top ten at the SBF.
Which is a real WOW for those in the know.

[EquineLegalSolutions]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Patchouli:
Here is a link to look at a HUS horse in action at a large National level AQHA show. Download the video clip on the link.

http://aqha.equine.com/showhorse.asp?horseid=641561

I sure do hope that this is an example of what we want to change? That pretty filly's head is far too low, and her canter is awfully slow for a hunter, IMHO, more like a lope.

[Bea]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by findeight:
Sorry didn't get back here till late and no names. More then one on the draw rein thing and many know who can use them occasionally and who abuses them..and their stock.
But the initials RR and GW plus the fact their children married will tell you what you want to know if you, indeed, are familiar with the whole Reined Cow Horse thing.
One of my closest friends of over 30 years has cracked the top ten at the SBF.
Which is a real WOW for those in the know. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thanks findeight. No, I'm not familiar with the whole Reined Cow Horse scene. It interests me, but it doesn't exist in NY, as far as I know. But yes, I recognize the initials perhaps because the bloodlines/breedings cross over with reining. And, if I remember correctly, I'd heard they recently won a major event title on the same day. That is indeed impressive about your friend. Do they ride open or non pro?

[LMH]

That video clip is exactly what I saw at the QH show---so I have some serious questions.

When you speak to people that show QH's--they refer to "flat kneed," "deep in the hock," "deep collection"....can someone PLEASE explain this to me?

I don't see "flat kneed"-I definitely don't see deep in the hock....at the trot they fall several inches short of tracking up...they are traveling on the forehand, NO use of the back...

SO-what is the story? Honestly I don't understand.

They look like a bunch of wheelbarrows being pushed around-rinse and repeat. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[MeanderCreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by LMH:

When you speak to people that show QH's--they refer to "flat kneed," "deep in the hock," "deep collection"....can someone PLEASE explain this to me?

I don't see "flat kneed"-I definitely don't see deep in the hock....at the trot they fall several inches short of tracking up...they are traveling on the forehand, NO use of the back...

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Flat kneed is at the trot, all but the best look a little climbey at the lope when they're choked back too far. The trot is not the important gear though, as long as they're flat, slow legged, hit the ground softly and are even front and back its onto third gear where the class is won or lost. That's where deep hocked comes in - the whole hind leg should swing from the hip with as little articulation in the hock as possible. That's a horse that swings its hock, and if he swings it well up under himself that's deep hocked.

The good ones do use their backs and use them well. Youth and Ammy horses don't so much, but then again neither do AA's or Childern's horses relative to the great hunters. I've got a couple three year olds just getting ready for the HUS that can/do bring their backs up MORE than any dressage horse I've ever sat on - including the GP horse I was allowed to ride. A great one just naturally has a lot of drive from behind, comes through its back and just lays its neck out there where it ought to be. The unfortunate reality is that most of them aren't naturals so you see a lot square pegs being forced into round holes, especially at the smaller shows in the lesser areas of the country.

[Plumcreek]

MeanderCreek has it right. The good QHs are short backed and have a strong hip with a low tie down into the gaskin. They can lope (that's what it is, really) slowly with a lot of power and forward reach. Many trainers also stick their spurs into the belly constantly so the horse sucks its belly (and back) up. They can do this because they NEVER have to increase speed, much less adjust for a jump.

The horse in the video, IMHO, is average. She is not flowing through at the canter and has an average trot stride. Her sire has not had many great movers - mostly good minds, I think. Her head carriage is what many judges currently think is "level". The transition from judging 'English Pleasure' to 'Hunter under Saddle' is going to take a lot of education and some time. I am impressed with the effort AQHA is making. Patience will be needed. It has been one year since a similar ultimatum went out concerning western pleasure "slow peanut rollers'. I have noticed that now, some of the big hitter western pleasure horses in advertising photos have an almost level neck carriage - far higher than the HUS horses in the ads. Kinda weird. QH HUS will probably never be the same as a Hunter Division hack class, because pleasure is the guiding force. Unlike hunter over fences, which arguably takes some riding skill, the QH business thrives on people who want to write a large check, climb on and win. Low headed, loping horses fill the bill and the money flow is a tough force to overcome.

[Jumphigh83]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Plumcreek:
Unlike hunter over fences, which arguably takes some riding skill, the QH business thrives on people who want to write a large check, climb on and win. Low headed, loping horses fill the bill and the money flow is a tough force to overcome. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perfectly said Plum..I am always amazed at how badly the majority of the "pro's" ride in the QH world...If they really cracked their backs (as in over the jumps) they would be launched! I LOVE QHs so I take the "abuse" personally...

[LMH]

I must be missing something-the horses I saw were the "top" ones-those that will be at world and congress-everyone talks about the push but to be honest, didn't see it http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[MeanderCreek]

Did you see Certifiable Edition, Naturally Ironic, You Know I'm Right, The Iron Maker, Held Captive, Dark Skys, Sky Classic, Movin Artfully - who I just love, Sky Blue Summer, Sky Blue Yonder, Distinctly Sweet, Downtowndetailbrown, The Snooty Fox, Darn That Kat, or Diget Dancer go? THOSE are some of the top horses in the country right now. Many of them are currently up here for Harlansburgh and Canfield.

Did you ever get the opportunity to see Coats N Tails or The Last Captive go while they were showing? How about Hey Blue Eyes when Trish Yamber was showing her, or really just about anything Trish sits on? Watch Ashleys Bo Doc go sometime THEN, after seeing horses like that go, form an opinion. The clips posted on this thread are not the great ones, they are pretty average weekend level horses IMO and not representative of the ideal AQHA HUS horse.

[findeight]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Bea:
Thanks findeight. No, I'm not familiar with the whole Reined Cow Horse scene. It interests me, but it doesn't exist in NY, as far as I know. But yes, I recognize the initials perhaps because the bloodlines/breedings cross over with reining. And, if I remember correctly, I'd heard they recently won a major event title on the same day. That is indeed impressive about your friend. Do they ride open or non pro? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>


My friend rides Non Pro...and has to skip some events every year because if a Non Pro wins over a certain amount..they show Pro.
I believe his Pro rider has gotten into the top ten at the SBF TWICE aboard his horses...one of which they would not let him ride as she was too talented-when he did get on she spun him off http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif.

this guy's sister has a purebred Arab trail horse-the obstacle/pretty kind, not endurance-by Bey Shah, a friggin Park Horse. Hot or not she is winning and winning and winning...and she did 90% of the work herself.
Skipping this year's World's in Louisville...see you in ABQ in 2005 http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

I love them all...if they are good.

[barnbabe718]

I ride on the A show circuit, but one of my best friends does AQHA stuff. I remember her telling me that at some big show (might have actually been Congress or Youth Worlds) that the judging was really bad. She showed me a video, and the horses that won the class were the same that would have won at an A show (good movers, big stride, etc.) She was all, "They pinned all of the horses that were trotting fast and didn't have their heads down in the 'QH headset.' That's not how you pin a HUS class." I tried to explain to her the way a USEF class would be placed and showed her a video from an A show. She was so confused... But at least some judges are getting away from using the peanut rollers.

[Plumcreek]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by MeanderCreek:
Watch Ashleys Bo Doc go sometime THEN, after seeing horses like that go, form an opinion. The clips posted on this thread are not the great ones, they are pretty average weekend level horses IMO and not representative of the ideal AQHA HUS horse. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

ASHLEYS BO DOC!!! I only got to see him at the 2002 World Show, but Wow! Perfect in HUS, scopey and round in Working Hunter, all with a great attitude. He would be awesome in any venue. What a nice horse. Can someone with more computer skill than I have post the win photos of him from the AQHA 2002 World show website so others can see him?

[MeanderCreek]

Sorry, no real computer skills here, but he's a stunning Pleasure Driving horse as well. I don't think anyone could say he's on his forehand or that he doesn't move from behind - every time I've seen him (in the HUS, WH & PD) he was at least tracking up and often overtracking - EVEN IN THE CART! Those with so much more experience than I may disagree, but I find it more difficult to get a horse really moving well in harness than undersaddle. That horse just always moves well and sets the standard by which QHs should be judged IMO.