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Losgelassenheit
Nov. 11, 2011, 09:57 PM
Yeah. :uhoh:

Let me start by saying that it is NOT my intention to cause a trainwreck here. Rather, I'm hoping to get some input from other, more experienced h/j gurus who could perhaps advise a young pro in their first year out from under trainers' wings and torn between wanting to be taken seriously in the business (as in, not running away from a challenge), but who also doesn't want to get killed, or end up in the middle of a blame-game either.

This spring, a potential client approached me about training her feisty 8 y/o ottb with a tying/rearing issue. While my immediate reaction was no thank you, I felt bad after listening to her story. She'd been through several "quick fix" trainers as she put it, with no results and horse more explosive than ever. She asked me my thoughts, training theories, etc., all of which I told her, and she seemed quite receptive. A very up front and honest person, though perhaps not what I'd call "horsey". What she wanted was a calm, reliable horse, essentially self-maintaining, that she could pull out every once in a while to go for a trail ride. It was not a good horse/rider match by any stretch, but after several weeks of back & forth over train, sell, or find something more suitable, she decided this big green guy was her "heart horse" and wanted to keep him.

Initially I was still skeptical, but after several observations & interactions with the horse, it became clear that the core of the issue was that he knew he could intimidate mom very easily. The few times she'd try to get tough with him, he'd just go bigger and that would bring things to a quick end, and back out he'd go with his buddies. I did a few basic exercises with him on the lunge to get an idea of his attitude and actually came away feeling that he would be quite manageable in a consistent program with me. So at that point I decided (still partially against my better judgement) to take him on. We discussed a plan, and I drew up a timeline, basically just taking him back to square one to start. Instilling a good solid forward, before re-introducing contact (side-reins on the lunge), getting him to yield properly, listen and be attentive to what's being asked of him -- all BEFORE getting on his back. Client again fully understood and seemed receptive.

Client then decides at the last minute to wait on sending him to me due to financial reasons. Ok, that's fine. She says we'll start in Oct/Nov. Now here we are and stalls are starting to fill up for season. I inquire with her to see if/when she plans to send him so that I may keep a spot for him, to which she tells me that she put him into a Parelli program over the summer, and is absolutely thrilled because of the "immediate disappearance" of his issues. The trainer comes 1x every other week and she works with him herself 3x/wk, and after just a handful of sessions she was able to get on him & take him out at dusk on the trails. All that being said however, she would still like me to come train him 2x/wk.

Frankly all I see now is a recipe for disaster. "Too many chefs.." and all that, but I also just feel there's too much conflict of interest at this point. I was raised in my trainers' old-school, classical European ways, where things are done slowly & consistently in accordance with the horse's abilities, progressions, and skill sets. Not gizmos, gadgets, and the quickest way to get on its back. Finding creative ways to avoid the problem doesn't mean it's fixed. I want the horse to respect me as the HUMAN half of our animal/person partnership. Not as a fellow horse where it's all about body cues and being on a 1:1 level. My greatest concern overall is that this horse is one day going to get a "body cue" he doesn't like and decide to put his fellow equal back in her place like old times. But that being said, the last place I want to be is involved in the mix when that happens, where I get the finger pointed at me as if I came in and ruined "what was working so well!"

Am I right in thinking that at this point I should (politely) decline? Are there any last thoughts of guidance or words of caution you would give to the client, or just say nothing? I don't want it to come across as sour grapes. I'm just deeply concerned about both horse and owner, but also want to be smart about limiting my involvement in what my gut tells me is now an even more volatile situation.

Thoughts? Sorry for the length.

mildot
Nov. 11, 2011, 10:01 PM
You have expressed enough solid reasons to stay away. Listen to your gut.

TrotTrotPumpkn
Nov. 11, 2011, 10:18 PM
What gizmos are they using...I thought Parelli was the carrot stick guy...(I really don't know, legit question--I promise).

Anyway, yes, you can of course decline, I'm just throwing out a different point of view (not disagreeing).

What kind of riding does she want to do? I obviously ;) don't think of Parelli as hunter jumper (i.e. was she reaching out to you because she ultimately wants to show over fences, or just because you are a good horse trainer and her horse has issues)? If she wants to ride in your discipline, and if you wanted to leave the door open to a future potential client, she could perhaps still haul in and take riding lessons from you a couple times a week. However, if she wants to just have a good trail companion, then it probably isn't worth it if you are building up clientelle. I don't know what your goal is for your clientelle, I guess.

I think it would be hard to "train" a horse riding only 2 x a week with a beginner riding inbetween anyway. People tell others that you "trained their horse" and I've seen that not go so well for some trainers (just my observation). Plus if there are issues, like you suspect there may be down the road, they WILL be blamed on you, because Mr. OTTB is doing perfect with the Parelli trainer...You may be better off declining completely regardless...maybe I've talked myself back to "no." ;)

doublesstable
Nov. 11, 2011, 10:29 PM
Reading your post I would not have called her back to begin with. Decline and move on. Not worth getting hurt.

MHM
Nov. 11, 2011, 10:38 PM
Here's a little tip for you:

When you say to yourself, "I just know this is a bad idea" or "This is probably not going to end well..." Don't do it!

Whether it's about a horse, a client, a business deal, listen to your instincts.

It's bad enough when something goes wrong in a surprising way. It's at least ten times worse when it blows up in your face and you think, "I knew that was going to happen!"

Trust me on this. :lol:

bjd2013
Nov. 11, 2011, 10:39 PM
I def. would stay away. I have found that a majority of people I know who "practice" Parelli, create rearers. Having been to his clinic, I disagree with most of the stuff in being beneficial, and seeing it creating issues. If she wants a trail horse, then just move on and find other clients.

Losgelassenheit
Nov. 11, 2011, 11:10 PM
Yes, Parelli is the carrot stick guy. In addition to that, she's been using some special type of rope halter for ground training, and then a "modified" standing martingale to ride in. She also mentioned a few other things that I'd never heard of before.

She is not interested in anything more than going for leisurely trail rides a few times a week, but was seeking someone from a "real discipline" as she put it, due to the rearing and her fear level of the horse. She'd somehow found my training resume & show background online, called several of my h/j references (one of which had a reformed rearer), and then came by the farm to speak with me in person. Her expression to me was that she'd been through the quick fix trainers, and then had been turned down immediately by several others when they were told about the rearing.

Most of my clients that she talked to are/were owners whose horses were sent to me for various issues & re-training, or those for which I am currently bringing along youngsters from the ground, up. That's really my passion -- working with the animals themselves, but I do have 1-2 kids and adults who come for lessons as well (all h/j).

Anywho, you bring up the 2x/wk thing, which is something I also planned to mention, in addition to the confusion it might cause the horse since I would not be coming in there with consideration of my posture cues & whatnot. He'd need to respect me no matter which way I'm facing. :rolleyes: Also, jumbling up what he's used to, I worry, would bring about a relapse that would be viewed as "because of me". I've been in that unfortunate spot once before and vowed never again.

I think my real problem is I'm battling the sense of responsibility for what I foresee coming in the not-so-distant future. But, you can lead a horse to water.. right?

Petstorejunkie
Nov. 11, 2011, 11:32 PM
I think my real problem is I'm battling the sense of responsibility for what I foresee coming in the not-so-distant future. But, you can lead a horse to water.. right?

it is not your duty to raise her IQ.
she has a horse she can trail ride. mission accomplished. wish them well and decline. if you need a reason, just simply state that your training could be in conflict with his parelli training and you don't want to confuse him.

Kenike
Nov. 11, 2011, 11:34 PM
Anywho, you bring up the 2x/wk thing, which is something I also planned to mention, in addition to the confusion it might cause the horse since I would not be coming in there with consideration of my posture cues & whatnot. He'd need to respect me no matter which way I'm facing. :rolleyes: Also, jumbling up what he's used to, I worry, would bring about a relapse that would be viewed as "because of me". I've been in that unfortunate spot once before and vowed never again.


I think you just gave her the explanation right there. Politely decline telling her this (minus the "never again" part, obviously). In all reality, it really does come down to owner responsibility if the horse goes back to old ways. YOU can't help that....SHE has to find what she's comfortable with in terms of training.

This is just one situation you don't need to be in the middle of. Listen to your gut.

Across Sicily
Nov. 12, 2011, 01:03 AM
To me, it's very clear you should stay away from this situation.

Though we may not agree with the training method (you couldn't pay me to train my horse the "Parelli way", for example) it has clearly worked for her, or at any rate, she thinks it has, and that's all that matters to her, isn't it?

Plus, conflict of interest. One H/J trainer + One Parelli Kook + One Overfaced Lady = Ticking Time Bomb.

If she approaches you in the future, if, say, the Parelli gambit doesn't work out, then re-evaluate and see how you feel... but for now I'd stay away. Far away.

M. O'Connor
Nov. 12, 2011, 07:12 AM
Here's a little tip for you:

When you say to yourself, "I just know this is a bad idea" or "This is probably not going to end well..." Don't do it!

Whether it's about a horse, a client, a business deal, listen to your instincts.

It's bad enough when something goes wrong in a surprising way. It's at least ten times worse when it blows up in your face and you think, "I knew that was going to happen!"

Trust me on this. :lol:

This! For sure.

ESPECIALLY if your stalls are filling up!

M. O'Connor
Nov. 12, 2011, 07:33 AM
Yes, Parelli is the carrot stick guy. In addition to that, she's been using some special type of rope halter for ground training, and then a "modified" standing martingale to ride in. She also mentioned a few other things that I'd never heard of before.

She is not interested in anything more than going for leisurely trail rides a few times a week, but was seeking someone from a "real discipline" as she put it, due to the rearing and her fear level of the horse. She'd somehow found my training resume & show background online, called several of my h/j references (one of which had a reformed rearer), and then came by the farm to speak with me in person. Her expression to me was that she'd been through the quick fix trainers, and then had been turned down immediately by several others when they were told about the rearing.

Most of my clients that she talked to are/were owners whose horses were sent to me for various issues & re-training, or those for which I am currently bringing along youngsters from the ground, up. That's really my passion -- working with the animals themselves, but I do have 1-2 kids and adults who come for lessons as well (all h/j).

Anywho, you bring up the 2x/wk thing, which is something I also planned to mention, in addition to the confusion it might cause the horse since I would not be coming in there with consideration of my posture cues & whatnot. He'd need to respect me no matter which way I'm facing. :rolleyes: Also, jumbling up what he's used to, I worry, would bring about a relapse that would be viewed as "because of me". I've been in that unfortunate spot once before and vowed never again.

I think my real problem is I'm battling the sense of responsibility for what I foresee coming in the not-so-distant future. But, you can lead a horse to water.. right?

Part of your confusion over this issue seems to be a lack of knowledge about what the various schools of natural horsemanship, including Parelli, actually entail. You would do well to explore the theories behind them, if only in order to dispel your trepidation that your own more "classical" methods might be in conflict.

This, to me, is the great fallacy of "natural horsemanship." Most "branded" "natural" systems developed as a rejection of the roundup/cowboy 'git 'em broke today' rodeo style of 'horse taming' that comes to mind when we think of a 'beat-it-out-of-the-bucking bronco' till he submits, gives up, or dies scenario.

But from what I've seen, good natural horsemanship is and always has been EMBEDDED in the type of riding systems that most of us have already learned. We just haven't separated it out, branded it, offered products like that fancy halter you mention (well, you haven't, unless you are Nelson and Rodrigo Pessoa). That, and responsible trainers don't pair up inexperienced horsemen with "magnificent diamonds in the rough" that have never been taught manners to start with, and allow the beginner with stars in their eyes to decide that one of these critters might be their uniquely special "heart" horse that if they aren't rescued and sent through the $pendy School of Whoever's Natural Horsemanship Curriculum, might wind up on a van to Canada (and you know where that's going....).

So you get a lot of ladies that have been taught to turn their horse in a circle on the ground, and think they've achieved something...but they can't get on and go ride.

OTOH, some of those "natural" guys really know what they are doing, and we can learn quite a lot from them. It's a PLUS to be able to take away THAT part of the package. I've watched BB in action, and was quite impressed, and took several little pointers away from it that have been very useful, more in babies than grownup horses, but very useful just the same.

IOW, if you knew more about the whole topic, you would be able to speak with more authority it , and you wouldn't feel at a disadvantage when expressing your opinion and explaining your reasoning to someone like this lady. Or, second guessing yourself about deciding you don't want her in your barn as a client.

magnolia73
Nov. 12, 2011, 08:26 AM
If you really want her in your program... I'd go meet with the Parelli trainer. If that trainer is actually onboard with her working with you, maybe you could do something good and gain a valuable contact.

Obviously, there is a negative perception of Parelli as a cult, but if you have a trainer who is sincerely saying... OK, now go work with your HJ person, maybe that Parelli trainer is one of the good ones.

Because none of the kooky ones are going to say "OK, go work with your HJ trainer".

If you meet with the trainer and she's a whack job or just not on the same wavelength, just pass on it.But if you meet, and there is some agreement and ability to work together, maybe you just gained a really great asset to your business.

NancyM
Nov. 12, 2011, 08:52 AM
I agree entirely with this, M. O'Connor. Plenty of quacks out there, of every variety. Plenty to learn from others who have done some thinking on the subject of training horses, and know how to express their ideas and practices to others, no matter how they label and promote themselves.

OP, sounds like you do need to walk away from this one though. There are plenty more fish in the sea.


Part of your confusion over this issue seems to be a lack of knowledge about what the various schools of natural horsemanship, including Parelli, actually entail. You would do well to explore the theories behind them, if only in order to dispel your trepidation that your own more "classical" methods might be in conflict.

This, to me, is the great fallacy of "natural horsemanship." Most "branded" "natural" systems developed as a rejection of the roundup/cowboy 'git 'em broke today' rodeo style of 'horse taming' that comes to mind when we think of a 'beat-it-out-of-the-bucking bronco' till he submits, gives up, or dies scenario.

But from what I've seen, good natural horsemanship is and always has been EMBEDDED in the type of riding systems that most of us have already learned. We just haven't separated it out, branded it, offered products like that fancy halter you mention (well, you haven't, unless you are Nelson and Rodrigo Pessoa). That, and responsible trainers don't pair up inexperienced horsemen with "magnificent diamonds in the rough" that have never been taught manners to start with, and allow the beginner with stars in their eyes to decide that one of these critters might be their uniquely special "heart" horse that if they aren't rescued and sent through the $pendy School of Whoever's Natural Horsemanship Curriculum, might wind up on a van to Canada (and you know where that's going....).

So you get a lot of ladies that have been taught to turn their horse in a circle on the ground, and think they've achieved something...but they can't get on and go ride.

OTOH, some of those "natural" guys really know what they are doing, and we can learn quite a lot from them. It's a PLUS to be able to take away THAT part of the package. I've watched BB in action, and was quite impressed, and took several little pointers away from it that have been very useful, more in babies than grownup horses, but very useful just the same.

IOW, if you knew more about the whole topic, you would be able to speak with more authority it , and you wouldn't feel at a disadvantage when expressing your opinion and explaining your reasoning to someone like this lady. Or, second guessing yourself about deciding you don't want her in your barn as a client.

naturalequus
Nov. 12, 2011, 09:49 AM
I'm sorry OP, you say you don't want to start a trainwreck but I honestly do not understand what the problem is. Owner has someone working with both her and her horse and is very happy with the results. On what basis are you concerned? Have you personally SEEN the recent results in horse and horse/rider?
ETA: and honestly if you ARE concerned but do not feel comfortable helping, that's okay - you just have to let go of that which you have no control over (which is sometimes very hard) ;)

In case you're wondering, my background is traditional and I train for a variety of disciplines and purposes and am coached by traditional coaches. I am a little-p-pro, have two jumpers and a number of other horses, and use classical dressage as my foundation for any horse (western or english). The Parelli foundation I put on a horse blends really well with the classical dressage; in fact, I find the Parelli to naturally lead into the classical work. You can easily combine different methods. A good rider, a good trainer, can get on a horse and improve it no matter the method used prior. A horse's response is entirely dependent upon that person.

You're judging a method you obviously have little knowledge of; your assessment of it being a 'quick fix' etc etc etc, is completely incorrect. As with ANY method, the results depend on how THAT person applies the tool. Hey, if your gut tells you 'no', then by all means, don't do it. But don't blame it on Parelli :rolleyes:

Losgelassenheit
Nov. 12, 2011, 09:49 AM
Thanks so much for all the input, guys.

I agree that essentially there's good and bad in just about everything, and hope I didn't come across as too anti-NH in my posts. I was at the BB film showing last year at WEF and took several positive things away from that, but this PP or CA.. eh..

I also think it's very interesting what you said, M. O'Connor, about many of the principles of the NH being embedded in our riding systems, just not singled out & renamed. I never would have thought to look at it from that perspective, but in doing so, it really is an eye opener. This is why I love COTH. :) Always something to learn.

Anyways, will be declining.. Now I just have to learn to stop worrying about what's out of my control. :dead:

ETA: naturalequus, sorry, we must have been writing at the same time. The basis of my concern was that this PP trainer came in with whatever her methods are and within a week or two put an inexperienced person on a very big, very green horse that knows he can bully his rider (or even handler on the ground) by rearing. He has already gone over twice, something I forgot to mention in the OP. Perhaps you are correct that the system in itself when practiced "properly" is not quick-fix, but IMO the way it was executed by this trainer for this already mis-matched pair, was.

My experience has also been (at least in my area) that there is an excess of backyard "trainers" who practice & pitch PP/CA precisely for the reason that it appears to get dramatic results quick. There's a "wow" factor to it that seems to appeal to less experienced horse people who become taken and enamored with the idea that it's the cure-all to their problems when in fact the situation is no more safe than it was before. That is also an issue for me because I'm just that type who would feel responsible should something occur in the future with this horse and the owner gets hurt.

That said, you are absolutely right that it's about how a person applies a method, and I will certainly concede that there are even h/j trainers out there who are more about the quickest way to the $$ sale than taking the time required to instill a good, solid foundation on a horse. That's half the battle for me already in trying to break into this business -- people assuming that I must be one of those largely due to being young, "new blood".

Anyways, I hope this thread will not derail. I respect your position, naturalequus, and have admired several of your posts & opinions in the past. I hope I've been able to clear up my words. It was not my intention to single anyone out.

naturalequus
Nov. 12, 2011, 09:53 AM
Part of your confusion over this issue seems to be a lack of knowledge about what the various schools of natural horsemanship, including Parelli, actually entail. You would do well to explore the theories behind them, if only in order to dispel your trepidation that your own more "classical" methods might be in conflict.

This, to me, is the great fallacy of "natural horsemanship." Most "branded" "natural" systems developed as a rejection of the roundup/cowboy 'git 'em broke today' rodeo style of 'horse taming' that comes to mind when we think of a 'beat-it-out-of-the-bucking bronco' till he submits, gives up, or dies scenario.

But from what I've seen, good natural horsemanship is and always has been EMBEDDED in the type of riding systems that most of us have already learned. We just haven't separated it out, branded it, offered products like that fancy halter you mention (well, you haven't, unless you are Nelson and Rodrigo Pessoa).

:yes:

MHM
Nov. 12, 2011, 09:54 AM
Now I just have to learn to stop worrying about what's out of my control. :dead:

Another valuable lesson, best learned early in the horse business. ;)

doublesstable
Nov. 12, 2011, 10:15 AM
I think my real problem is I'm battling the sense of responsibility for what I foresee coming in the not-so-distant future. But, you can lead a horse to water.. right?


I understand how you feel about some of the NH, I have tried to understand some of it and don't. But then again I was watching owners that don't ride their horses. And Im not much of a round pen fan...so there you have it.

On your above quote; at least she is in a program with someone and not on her own... hopefully it will work out well for her......

HannahsMom7
Nov. 12, 2011, 10:33 AM
Hi - just to put your mind at ease. You were/are correct to decline to take her now that she is doing Parelli. She will most likely not do what you ask. WHY?
because IMHO, parelli is a cult and the ones who do it do not change.

My newbe girlfriend is a Parelli nut and went looking for a horse. there are not many parelli-trained horses out there but she Insisted on doing parelli stuff w/them anyway! We found several that were afraid of the longe whip/carrot stick. But it isn't a longe whip she says and does not believe me when I say to put it down.

But don't fear, this lady WILL NOT get on her horse if she feels the least be nervous or unsure about it after doing her groundwork. This I have seen personally. So if he acts out, and she can't get him to settle, she won;t get on. it is that simple.

naturalequus
Nov. 12, 2011, 10:45 AM
ETA: naturalequus, sorry, we must have been writing at the same time. The basis of my concern was that this PP trainer came in with whatever her methods are and within a week or two put an inexperienced person on a very big, very green horse that knows he can bully his rider (or even handler on the ground) by rearing. He has already gone over twice, something I forgot to mention in the OP. Perhaps you are correct that the system in itself when practiced "properly" is not quick-fix, but IMO the way it was executed by this trainer for this already mis-matched pair, was.

Thanks for the clarification, OP :) I still think that, to really form an accurate opinion on this trainer and their results in this particular case, that you would need to actually see both horse and rider as they are now, after their alleged progress. That said, I do understand you might have some valid concerns, especially considering this horse's past history of flipping (:eek: yikes). I would have my reservations too, with such an apparently possible 'extreme' case (ie, horse flipping), with such 'quick' results when the trainer is only working on the horse 1x every other week (I actually originally read that as 1x/week, which is better!). BUT, maybe things really 'clicked' with the owner with some advice from this trainer, and she was able to accomplish much in her own 3x/week sessions too. I've worked with some owners who were seemingly oblivious and probably should have had a lesson every single day (:lol:), and others who really just 'get it' and are able to immediately apply what I teach them and expand upon that, for a great deal of success. My experiences have been that good training can get quick results at times, depending on the situation.

If you feel you could make a difference with this horse, go for it. Your methods will not conflict with the horse's prior training - good training is good training. It might be a good experience for you. BUT if you are in any way uncomfortable taking this horse on - which you seem to be, then by all means, let it alone and reserve these types of horses and horse/owner combinations for when you are more established as a trainer.

Thanks for responding politely, I was a little on the defense after reading too many Parelli-bashing threads on this board. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I feel there is room for all our opinions when we respect one another. Thanks again :)

Losgelassenheit
Nov. 12, 2011, 10:58 AM
Thanks for responding politely, I was a little on the defense after reading too many Parelli-bashing threads on this board. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I feel there is room for all our opinions when we respect one another. Thanks again :)

Absolutely. :)

doublesstable
Nov. 12, 2011, 11:36 AM
The basis of my concern was that this PP trainer came in with whatever her methods are and within a week or two put an inexperienced person on a very big, very green horse that knows he can bully his rider (or even handler on the ground) by rearing. He has already gone over twice, something I forgot to mention in the OP.

IMHO when a horse goes over I personally think there is something wrong with that horse mentally.

If you want to help this person I would tell her to find an owner that has the skills to keep a horse like this and find a nice quiet trustworthy trail horse.... Again IMHO.

Western
Nov. 12, 2011, 03:16 PM
But from what I've seen, good natural horsemanship is and always has been EMBEDDED in the type of riding systems that most of us have already learned. We just haven't separated it out, branded it, offered products like that fancy halter you mention ...OTOH, some of those "natural" guys really know what they are doing, and we can learn quite a lot from them. It's a PLUS to be able to take away THAT part of the package. I've watched BB in action, and was quite impressed, and took several little pointers away from it that have been very useful, more in babies than grownup horses, but very useful just the same...

:yes::cool::yes:


... The Parelli foundation I put on a horse blends really well with the classical dressage; in fact, I find the Parelli to naturally lead into the classical work. You can easily combine different methods. A good rider, a good trainer, can get on a horse and improve it no matter the method used prior. A horse's response is entirely dependent upon that person.... But don't blame it on Parelli :rolleyes:

:yes::cool::yes:


IMHO when a horse goes over I personally think there is something wrong with that horse mentally.

If you want to help this person I would tell her to find an owner that has the skills to keep a horse like this and find a nice quiet trustworthy trail horse.... Again IMHO.

Yes, there very well may be a loose screw in that horse's mind.

Also agree with the second suggestion! This woman thinks she's a Parelli student? Parelli ALWAYS warns against overfacing yourself/picking your poison in a horse! :no:

Losgelassenheit
Nov. 12, 2011, 03:54 PM
My initial advice to her was to move the horse along to someone with the right experience who'd keep him in a consistent program, and we'd find something suitable to her desires. She agreed at first, but then went back and forth with me for a good 2 months until ultimately deciding that "he is her heart horse" and no one can tell her otherwise. So that's what led to me going to see the horse & whatnot.

At any rate, in our last correspondence it's pretty much how I assumed. She's enamored by the "voodoo" as she called it, thinks it's fantastic, and PP trainer thinks the horse will be perfectly fine in the long run. Though.. one thing I thought was interesting is that said trainer has not yet put their arse in the saddle... :uhoh:

But alas.. I'm hereby looking the other way.

Western
Nov. 12, 2011, 07:22 PM
I feel that you're right to do so, if it's any confirmation. To straighten out a wacko so-called Parelli student is impossible for mere mortals. ;)

airhorse
Nov. 12, 2011, 08:24 PM
I feel that you're right to do so, if it's any confirmation. To straighten out a wacko so-called Parelli student is impossible for mere mortals. ;)

Yes, it takes Buck to accomplish this feat:D

Western
Nov. 12, 2011, 11:49 PM
Ya mean that guy who puts his pants on one leg at a time? ;)

MagicHillFarm
Nov. 13, 2011, 12:31 AM
I feel that you're right to do so, if it's any confirmation. To straighten out a wacko so-called Parelli student is impossible for mere mortals. ;)


My general rule of thumb:

If you hear the words Parelli or Natural Horsemanship, RUN!!!!

W-H-A-C-K-A-D-O-O-D-L-E-S !!! :eek:

Old Mac Donald
Nov. 13, 2011, 05:16 AM
Don't you know? Parelli horses don't have *any* vices...

Parelli on vices (http://central.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/2011/11/different-meanings-for-the-same-thing-vices/)

My brain hurts :eek::eek:

1sock
Nov. 13, 2011, 07:23 AM
Don't you know? Parelli horses don't have *any* vices...

Parelli on vices (http://central.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/2011/11/different-meanings-for-the-same-thing-vices/)

My brain hurts :eek::eek:

WHY did you post that link...... now you have me on that page, looking up old blog posts, and being amazed that not only have they trademarked the word "horse-inality" (thats really a word?) they have apparently trademarked "husband-ality" (yes, you read that right). :lol:
http://central.parellinaturalhorsetraining.com/2011/11/husband-ality%e2%84%a2/

Silk
Nov. 13, 2011, 09:19 AM
We have a lemon stick and a rutabaga stick.

Losgelassenheit
Nov. 13, 2011, 09:26 AM
We have a lemon stick and a rutabaga stick.

^^:lol::lol::lol:

Now now, guys. It's stayed on the tracks this far.. :D

M. O'Connor
Nov. 13, 2011, 09:35 AM
Oh my.

As some background, I have recently been given out to over my finding humor in a tragic situation.

That post, and the fate of poor vice-less Roscoe is right up there.

Poor Roscoe:eek: .

but...:lol: What a dopey outlook.

I guess I'm just bad!

airineek
Nov. 13, 2011, 10:32 AM
Thanks for the clarification, OP :) I still think that, to really form an accurate opinion on this trainer and their results in this particular case, that you would need to actually see both horse and rider as they are now, after their alleged progress. That said, I do understand you might have some valid concerns, especially considering this horse's past history of flipping (:eek: yikes). I would have my reservations too, with such an apparently possible 'extreme' case (ie, horse flipping), with such 'quick' results when the trainer is only working on the horse 1x every other week (I actually originally read that as 1x/week, which is better!). BUT, maybe things really 'clicked' with the owner with some advice from this trainer, and she was able to accomplish much in her own 3x/week sessions too. I've worked with some owners who were seemingly oblivious and probably should have had a lesson every single day (:lol:), and others who really just 'get it' and are able to immediately apply what I teach them and expand upon that, for a great deal of success. My experiences have been that good training can get quick results at times, depending on the situation.

If you feel you could make a difference with this horse, go for it. Your methods will not conflict with the horse's prior training - good training is good training. It might be a good experience for you. BUT if you are in any way uncomfortable taking this horse on - which you seem to be, then by all means, let it alone and reserve these types of horses and horse/owner combinations for when you are more established as a trainer.

Thanks for responding politely, I was a little on the defense after reading too many Parelli-bashing threads on this board. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, and I feel there is room for all our opinions when we respect one another. Thanks again :)


I agree. There are some trainers who have effective systems for correcting and unteaching rearing. Many trainers, however, even trainers who are very talented in other ways, are not equipped to handle this rather dangerous problem. They risk either getting hurt or escalating the problem without fixing it. It sometimes takes a specialized trainer to correct rearing and other dangerous vices. OP might be an excellent trainer, but if she doesn't want to take on a rearer, that's completely understandable.

On the ground training...I've known of a couple of cases in which ground training techniques in a halter and long rope were used successfully to correct hunter prospects who had developed rearing issues. Because of the danger involved, I think it does make sense to be on the ground initially when working with these horses.

From my observations, ground training isn't at all faddish. When the techniques are administered correctly, it's just positive and negative reinforcement of behavior, persistence and impeccable timing in providing punishment and reward. It's simply good training and results can be achieved quickly because the horses seem to understand what is expected of them.

I don't know anything about Parelli, and I'm sure that there are many many poor natural horsemanship trainers out there, the same way there are many poor "traditional" trainers out there, but I do think that well-executed ground training is beneficial for hunters, as is correct under-saddle training.

doublesstable
Nov. 13, 2011, 01:43 PM
I agree. There are some trainers who have effective systems for correcting and unteaching rearing. Many trainers, however, even trainers who are very talented in other ways, are not equipped to handle this rather dangerous problem. They risk either getting hurt or escalating the problem without fixing it. It sometimes takes a specialized trainer to correct rearing and other dangerous vices. OP might be an excellent trainer, but if she doesn't want to take on a rearer, that's completely understandable.

On the ground training...I've known of a couple of cases in which ground training techniques in a halter and long rope were used successfully to correct hunter prospects who had developed rearing issues. Because of the danger involved, I think it does make sense to be on the ground initially when working with these horses.

From my observations, ground training isn't at all faddish. When the techniques are administered correctly, it's just positive and negative reinforcement of behavior, persistence and impeccable timing in providing punishment and reward. It's simply good training and results can be achieved quickly because the horses seem to understand what is expected of them.

I don't know anything about Parelli, and I'm sure that there are many many poor natural horsemanship trainers out there, the same way there are many poor "traditional" trainers out there, but I do think that well-executed ground training is beneficial for hunters, as is correct under-saddle training.


Agree with the poor training traditional and/or Natural type.... good and bad everywhere...

I think if you catch a rearer early, young you can reslove it.. however if the horse has gone over, has no self preservation you really need to make that animal a pasture puff. I'm sure there are situations that this can resolve once ingrained, however I have never seen one personally. (as you can probably tell, I have been around a few rearers) One horse I have today started rearing when he was young - lucky enough to have two amazing trainers that dealt with it quickly - that was over 10 years ago.

Ground training is traditional too - I knew a dressage barn where they talked about one of the best trainers ever and he trained many horses on ships in a 20 x 20 space from the ground for months.. when the horses arrived on land they were fully trained and being ridden. When I rode at an amazing dressage barn they spent a lot of time working the horses from the ground (in hand). My horse learned half pass and piaffe beautifuly "from the ground".... very awesome to watch.

7HL
Nov. 14, 2011, 08:37 AM
I def. would stay away. I have found that a majority of people I know who "practice" Parelli, create rearers. Having been to his clinic, I disagree with most of the stuff in being beneficial, and seeing it creating issues. If she wants a trail horse, then just move on and find other clients.

You must not know lots of Parelli users.

We don't any problem with our three, never have.


None of these are Parelli trained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS6TtFH-ul8

findeight
Nov. 14, 2011, 03:40 PM
For OP, you cannot fix everything for everybody and it is best to realize it early in a situation like this.

The owner is nuts, let's the horse push her around and it does the single most dangerous thing a horse can do.

I would not blame PP or NH for creating the behavior when she has the wrong horse for her and does not want to listen to logic instead of make excuses for bad behavior. She can use anybody she wants and it would change nothing here.

Thank your lucky stars she went elsewhere...and don't feel guilty.

MHM
Nov. 14, 2011, 03:49 PM
None of these are Parelli trained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS6TtFH-ul8

How do you know?

Do you know the complete history of every single horse and rider in the video?

eclipse
Nov. 14, 2011, 04:00 PM
You must not know lots of Parelli users.

We don't any problem with our three, never have.


None of these are Parelli trained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS6TtFH-ul8

So, lets see videos of your "perfect horses"........no? none? didn't think so! :rolleyes:

naturalequus
Nov. 14, 2011, 04:14 PM
All a person has to do is open their eyes and they will find examples of well-behaved Parelli-trained horses. Jonathan Field is a great example :)

JoZ
Nov. 14, 2011, 04:26 PM
None of these are Parelli trained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS6TtFH-ul8

No. The horses are being ridden.

Kenike
Nov. 14, 2011, 04:26 PM
Funny...because a Parelli-trained horse means Parelli, himself, gets bucked off, then runs the horse into the ground to make it submissive. (oddly, it appears to have been pulled from Youtube)

Kryswyn
Nov. 14, 2011, 04:40 PM
We are born with instincts, which as children often keep us from great harm. Then as we get older and learn to rationalize, we stop listening to our gut and we make bad choices like the boyfriend who hits us, but says he'll never do it again or the job we take even though we thought the manager was hinkey, and lo and behold, he started stalking you.

Here is a great opportunity to listen to your inner voice. Call, politely decline, wish her luck, lose her phone number.

doublesstable
Nov. 14, 2011, 05:22 PM
You must not know lots of Parelli users.

We don't any problem with our three, never have.


None of these are Parelli trained:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS6TtFH-ul8


Your post was okay until you added the video... you have no idea what those horses situations are... and most of us here couldn't stay on a horse upset like that not even Parelli!

7HL
Nov. 14, 2011, 06:45 PM
Your post was okay until you added the video... you have no idea what those horses situations are... and most of us here couldn't stay on a horse upset like that not even Parelli!


I don't care to stay on "those" horses. My opinion is they aren't well trained and in some cases they are being pushed to far.

7HL
Nov. 14, 2011, 06:49 PM
Funny...because a Parelli-trained horse means Parelli, himself, gets bucked off, then runs the horse into the ground to make it submissive. (oddly, it appears to have been pulled from Youtube)


Where, when, were you there?

I was. As for the RTTH video th epromoters pulled the video, because no video recording was allowed.

You really need to get your story straight.

7HL
Nov. 14, 2011, 06:52 PM
No. The horses are being ridden.

You call that ridden, just staying on for longer then 8 seconds doesn't count.

doublesstable
Nov. 14, 2011, 08:23 PM
I don't care to stay on "those" horses. My opinion is they aren't well trained and in some cases they are being pushed to far.


I thought this thread was doing well for being about Parelli - even if you think good or bad of his methods can be a controversial topic.

I would dissagree with you - I would think many of the horses in the video you posted are very well trained - they are animals after all and are not perfect - Horses and riders have bad days.

I'm sure if I wanted to spend some time searching youtube I could find some videos of Parelli type trainings going bad or pushing a horse around a round pen for hours.... just an all together open ended subject that cannot be won.

7HL
Nov. 14, 2011, 08:42 PM
I thought this thread was doing well for being about Parelli - even if you think good or bad of his methods can be a controversial topic.

I would dissagree with you - I would think many of the horses in the video you posted are very well trained - they are animals after all and are not perfect - Horses and riders have bad days.

I'm sure if I wanted to spend some time searching youtube I could find some videos of Parelli type trainings going bad or pushing a horse around a round pen for hours.... just an all together open ended subject that cannot be won.


I thought this was about rearing horses. Actually in the original post I believe the woman with the rearing horse after using Parelli, that issue was resolved. I believe the issuesis that the OP doesn't know how to handle someone that has used Parelli.

Go ahead an search youtube and post videos.

Those weren't well trained horses, they all appeared to have issues. Or maybe it was the rider??????:confused:

doublesstable
Nov. 14, 2011, 08:46 PM
I thought this was about rearing horses. Actually in the original post I believe the woman with the rearing horse after using Parelli, that issue was resolved. I believe the issuesis that the OP doesn't know how to handle someone that has used Parelli.

Go ahead an search youtube and post videos.

Those weren't well trained horses, they all appeared to have issues. Or maybe it was the rider??????:confused:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gf7w_1ifus

not too difficult to find... not a battle you will ever win!!

7HL
Nov. 14, 2011, 09:33 PM
Battle what are you talking about...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-C433UIK-8


The said part about this is there more abuse going on in the non-Parelli world of horses, then what you can create in your mind.

MHM
Nov. 14, 2011, 10:23 PM
^ Duelling Youtube?

Like Duelling Banjos? :eek:

Losgelassenheit
Nov. 14, 2011, 10:27 PM
I thought this was about rearing horses. Actually in the original post I believe the woman with the rearing horse after using Parelli, that issue was resolved. I believe the issuesis that the OP doesn't know how to handle someone that has used Parelli.

I'm sorry, but you will never convince me that an issue such as rearing can be fool-proof resolved within a few weeks when said "trainer" only comes once every other week as it is, and won't even get on the horse themself. But it's ok for the intimidated beginner? Something's tremendously wrong with that picture. I would have been on the horse long before ever putting her on, and I didn't even have plans of getting on him until at least 50-60 days of solid, consistent groundwork.

The issue in my OP was not about any lack of knowledge of how to handle someone who has used Parelli. :rolleyes: It was about whether or not to handle them at all. A client with a horse with a rearing issue, who after wanting my assistance from a traditional, long-term perspective brought in a Parelli trainer who had this timid, inexperienced owner UP on her big, green horse almost immediately. This lady then wanted to bring me back into the mix thinking everything was miraculously fine & wonderful. Therefore, I wanted feedback from other traditional type h/j trainers on how they would handle the situation. Whether it would be best to leave it be, for the reason that should this horse explode again, I would be in the prime position for blame, as in the owner's mind, she thinks the "horsey voodoo" is fantastic and he is acting perfectly thus far. Or, would they try to step in anyway and right things in the proper fashion before the explosion occurs?

My opinion was that this was dangerous enough already for the owner, and my conscience was/still partially is killing me for telling her I would not be getting involved any further. As I've said, I'm one who would feel absolutely 100% at fault if she or the horse were to get hurt in the future, since at one point in time, she was my client and therefore I feel a responsibility towards her & the horse. But, I did everything I possibly could to educate her and guide her to the best decision. In the end, the "voodoo" won out. It's now out of my control.

That said, I've gotten some super advice and wise words from posters to this thread, and I'm grateful. It's tough enough learning these lessons and having that level of self-doubt as a fledgling on a professional level, so to have my thoughts reaffirmed by those more experienced means a lot. Also, doublesstable :D your blue siggy line is my new motto. :yes:

doublesstable
Nov. 14, 2011, 10:32 PM
Battle what are you talking about...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-C433UIK-8


The said part about this is there more abuse going on in the non-Parelli world of horses, then what you can create in your mind.


The battle of - "training methods." There is good and bad in every training arena... Dressage, Hunters, Jumpers, Eventing, Reining, Natural, whatever you want to call it!

What's wrong with some of the Parelli type training is it's more of a DIY (Do It Yourself) - quick fix... some of it is probably good and horses and owners enjoy it... however some of the people I have seen should find a good trainer, take some lessons or get a different horse when they are over faced..... depending on the damage that has been done to a particular horse it takes "time" and some people want the Big Mac made in minutes.

Let me reiterate - there are good and bad in all training arenas. You can debate it all day long but that's a battle you will not win.....

Agree Rolkur is horrible but so is tying a rope to a horses leg.

doublesstable
Nov. 14, 2011, 10:37 PM
^ Duelling Youtube?

Like Duelling Banjos? :eek:

Fine look what you did!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8

Losgelassenheit
Nov. 14, 2011, 10:43 PM
The battle of - "training methods." There is good and bad in every training arena... Dressage, Hunters, Jumpers, Eventing, Reining, Natural, whatever you want to call it!

What's wrong with some of the Parelli type training is it's more of a DIY (Do It Yourself) - quick fix... some of it is probably good and horses and owners enjoy it... however some of the people I have seen should find a good trainer, take some lessons or get a different horse when they are over faced..... depending on the damage that has been done to a particular horse it takes "time" and some people want the Big Mac made in minutes.

Let me reiterate - there are good and bad in all training arenas. You can debate it all day long but that's a battle you will not win.....

I bow to you, doubles. :yes: You just said it all.

MHM
Nov. 14, 2011, 11:01 PM
Fine look what you did!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tqxzWdKKu8

There is no possible way to watch that without tapping your toes.

However, I can tell I don't ever want to see the rest of that movie!

Kenike
Nov. 15, 2011, 12:00 AM
While I find it odd that "no video" was allowed at that competition, there are still plenty of videos on Youtube from it....EXCEPT for the portion where Parelli was bucked off. Head scratcher!

But, I am also aware it's a losing argument here. Kool-aid, and all.

OP, you are a wise woman! Don't feel remorse. You can only take care of what YOU can take care of. The owner, and the other trainer have to take responsibility for their own actions. You can't do that for them. Hugs to you!

catknsn
Nov. 26, 2011, 11:46 PM
it is not your duty to raise her IQ.


That is a wonderful line. I am going to remember that for future use! :D