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View Full Version : Top Trainers- Prices? Heritage farms vs frank madden etc.



remyman55
Nov. 9, 2011, 12:37 AM
I would love to train with Heritage Farms with Andre but i was wondering how his prices were. I assume they are expensive but does anyone know the particular prices are? Price is a factor for me since I will be an amatuer as of December First and without a horse.
How about Frank Madden? What are his costs to train with?

karlymacrae
Nov. 9, 2011, 03:50 AM
Are you looking to lease a horse? Just take lessons? Show lots? it all depends on a lot of things. Leasing a horse is 1/3 of the sale price per year plus care. You can lease for shorter periods of time but it'll cost you more in the long run. I know that lessons at HF are $100 and frank probably runs around the same. I'll also go out on a limb and say full care board is over $1000 a month.

It's quite easy to call/email and ask :)

leyla25
Nov. 9, 2011, 07:04 AM
Full care at Heritage or Old Salem Farm where Frank trains is over 3.5K per month excluding vet care, meds, farrier, show fees, etc. There is no lesson program in those places.

Alterrain
Nov. 9, 2011, 07:52 AM
There is no lesson program in those places.

But surely they have (tons :D) of horses for lease? I rhink that's what OP was asking... (?)

S A McKee
Nov. 9, 2011, 08:04 AM
But surely they have (tons :D) of horses for lease? I rhink that's what OP was asking... (?)

I'm sure both places can arrange leases but with the price of a lease plus board at those farms you are probably looking at something north of 5K a month. The OP said price is a factor.

Another poster suggested you call the farms. That's really your best option. If their programs aren't a good fit for you they may be able to suggest another trainer.

westie55
Nov. 9, 2011, 08:16 AM
Between board, lease fee, farrier, lessons, shows, etc. you are looking at roughly $150k per year for 1 horse.

Long Spot
Nov. 9, 2011, 08:42 AM
I would imagine both programs are a case of "If you have to ask...".

Calling or emailing the actual farms will get your questions answered.

Lucassb
Nov. 9, 2011, 10:39 AM
I would love to train with Heritage Farms with Andre but i was wondering how his prices were. I assume they are expensive but does anyone know the particular prices are? Price is a factor for me since I will be an amatuer as of December First and without a horse.
How about Frank Madden? What are his costs to train with?

Both programs you mention are north of $3k a month at home, before showing costs (and they are show barns, obviously, with an expectation that you will regularly be on the road with them.) Consider also that both of those trainers spend the winter at WEF and factor those prices/travel into your calculation.

Leases are generally priced at one third of the horse's market value (plus insurance, etc.) At a minimum I would guess you'd be spending around $25-30K a year to lease something in one of those barns.

Hunter/JumperMom
Nov. 9, 2011, 11:11 AM
Both programs you mention are north of $3k a month at home, before showing costs (and they are show barns, obviously, with an expectation that you will regularly be on the road with them.) Consider also that both of those trainers spend the winter at WEF and factor those prices/travel into your calculation.

Leases are generally priced at one third of the horse's market value (plus insurance, etc.) At a minimum I would guess you'd be spending around $25-30K a year to lease something in one of those barns.

Sadly leases could run that a weekend for finals! Some horses coming out of those barns run 75+ a year for a lease!!!

findeight
Nov. 9, 2011, 11:39 AM
Those are pretty much the top show barns near major cities on the pricey East Coast. Kind of like going to the Rolls Royce/Bently dealership in Manhattan or Beverly Hills, expensive even for a very expensive area.

There are other quality alternatives at far less price. Still expensive if you are in an expensive area but not quite that high. Some even have lesson programs where ownership or full lease is not required.

COTH is a pretty good source for recommendations if you care to share your location, there are plenty of barns out there that produce high quality riders that were not on Horsepower.

holaamigoalter
Nov. 9, 2011, 12:09 PM
I know Andre has some "unspoken rule" that you can't just have one horse. He probably has zero in house lease-only clients.

I'm not familiar with the Frank Madden/Steve Weiss set up I just know they are kind of starting over and have no one winning right now but a lot of up-and-coming kids that have definite potential.

Janeway
Nov. 9, 2011, 12:26 PM
Another poster suggested you call the farms. That's really your best option. If their programs aren't a good fit for you they may be able to suggest another trainer.

Very true, but sometimes its nice to get your ducks in a row before calling. A little more information can better prepare the OP in advance - getting a good idea of general costs could prevent her going dead silent on the line when a Hertitage employee gives her the real scoop! :winkgrin:

myalter1
Nov. 9, 2011, 12:58 PM
I have a friend who recently moved her horse to Frank Madden's and I believe board/training is about $3,600 a month..excluding,like everyone said, vet bills, showing, etc.

S A McKee
Nov. 9, 2011, 01:28 PM
Very true, but sometimes its nice to get your ducks in a row before calling. A little more information can better prepare the OP in advance - getting a good idea of general costs could prevent her going dead silent on the line when a Hertitage employee gives her the real scoop! :winkgrin:

well then you could have quoted the first paragraph of my post too. I think that made it clear about the general costs.
I just love it when a poster does selective quoting. :D

"I'm sure both places can arrange leases but with the price of a lease plus board at those farms you are probably looking at something north of 5K a month. The OP said price is a factor"

Janeway
Nov. 9, 2011, 04:31 PM
It wasn't meant to be "selective quoting" in some sort of planned stealth-attack way. No need to read into the fact that some of your text didn't make it into my post.

In fact my comment wasn't even intended to have anything to do with you personally. Just wanted to point out to those who kept saying "call the farm" that it doesn't hurt to ask a few questions before going to the source. Sorry that you feel i misrepresented you somehow!

remyman55
Nov. 9, 2011, 07:27 PM
Very true, but sometimes its nice to get your ducks in a row before calling. A little more information can better prepare the OP in advance - getting a good idea of general costs could prevent her going dead silent on the line when a Hertitage employee gives her the real scoop! :winkgrin:

yes! i was just wondering an idea if i do in fact call them. i live in nothern new jersey and im open to look into other options that would be less expensive but still top trainers.

meupatdoes
Nov. 9, 2011, 08:54 PM
yes! i was just wondering an idea if i do in fact call them. i live in nothern new jersey and im open to look into other options that would be less expensive but still top trainers.

What about Emil Spadone or Gary Zook?
They are both in NJ.

In general I have found NJ has great trainers too but you can get into a good barn for $1,500 a month instead of $3k+.

NJ is slightly more ala carte, in Westchester they throw in everything but the kitchen sink and charge out the wazoo.

Obviously these are generalizations but I think NJ has many more affordable options that are still of high quality.

STA
Nov. 10, 2011, 11:09 AM
Have you spoken with Stacia and Max? They are in NJ and are wonderful trainers.

BAC
Nov. 10, 2011, 11:44 AM
I think the suggestion of going with a NJ trainer is a good one, there are quite a few excellent ones to choose from and the cost will be more reasonable. As good as they are, if price is a factor, then I don't think Andre or Frank are your best options.

ballisticgirl
Nov. 10, 2011, 11:58 AM
Gary Zook's place looks incredible, but 53 miles from Manhattan? Any facilities/trainers similar but a closer commute?

joiedevie99
Nov. 10, 2011, 12:02 PM
Westchester County NY and SW Fairfield County CT are the most expensive- regardless of trainer quality, because land and cost of living is most expensive there.

Orange County, NY, Rockland County, NY and NJ are going to be cheaper for the same quality (to varying extents) because it just plain costs less to run the same operation.

By George!
Nov. 10, 2011, 02:15 PM
Call Beacon Hill - tops in everything, but NJ location helps keep their prices a bit lower than what you'll see in Fairfield/Westchester. You might also consider Chris Kappler in Pittstown.

Tha Ridge
Nov. 10, 2011, 11:24 PM
What about Emil Spadone or Gary Zook?
They are both in NJ.

In general I have found NJ has great trainers too but you can get into a good barn for $1,500 a month instead of $3k+.

[...]

Obviously these are generalizations but I think NJ has many more affordable options that are still of high quality.

Second all of these points. Emil is very, very affordable, comparatively speaking—and it's actually an easier drive from Manhattan than heading up north or to Long Island.

TSWJB
Nov. 13, 2011, 10:41 AM
Second all of these points. Emil is very, very affordable, comparatively speaking—and it's actually an easier drive from Manhattan than heading up north or to Long Island.

yes emil is very very affordable and a great trainer! he also has really good people working for him so you have several top notch trainers and riders to work with. and he is very willing to work with anyone even if your horse is not a top dollar horse. i would definitely look into emil for training!

To the MAX
Nov. 13, 2011, 11:32 AM
yes emil is very very affordable and a great trainer! he also has really good people working for him so you have several top notch trainers and riders to work with. and he is very willing to work with anyone even if your horse is not a top dollar horse. i would definitely look into emil for training!

Definitely second (third, fourth?) Emil! I boarded with a student of his last winter and one night when he came to give her a lesson I asked to jump around with them. He was VERY helpful and gave me the same attention on my $2500 OTTB that my friend got on her $$$$ pony hunter. If I still lived in NJ and made any kind of decent money I would definitely train with him.

Frankl
Jan. 15, 2012, 07:35 AM
Our 8 year old just completed her evaluation ride for Frank. I don't think that Old Salem Farm has many ponies or horses available to lease. We're shipping one of our ponies to Frank and boarding it at the farm. Previous posters are correct. Cost per month is $3600+ and if you need to ask, he's probably out of your price range. That being said, the facility is absolutely incredible, the assistant trainers fantastic. Maddie loved riding for Maggie and Siminella last week. Since our daughter works in NYC during the summer we weren't going to miss out on the opportunity for her to train under Frank. She already rides a her school (which has an absolutely amazing trainer in Bernie Villienue) and spends five days a week in the saddle. I got the impression that Frank only takes on students that have great work ethic and and a love of riding. I'll keep you posted on her experiences.

meupatdoes
Jan. 15, 2012, 07:45 AM
and if you need to ask, he's probably out of your price range.

This is one of my biggest pet peeves.

People are asking to judge the VALUE for the money, not just to see if they have the pennies to rub together.

I could AFFORD to spend $600 for a pencil, because I have $600 lying around several times over, but $600 for a pencil is not a good VALUE.

So a person asking for prices might well be a bazillionaire who makes the call that Emil at NJ prices is a better VALUE, according to whatever their factors are, than Andre at Heritage prices. Or they might decide that Andre is worth the extra money to them. To one person buying a car, "price is a factor" means they don't have more than $5,000 to spend on something used, to somebody whose husband just reined in the credit card "price is a factor" when $100,000k is the limit and it rules out a Bentley.

But to make the call, they have to ask.
Acting like the mere fact of asking means they don't get to play in your circle is just snobbery.

For the record I once got a MAJOR record label owner, not having a clue who he was, to come to my trainer's barn instead of Andre's when he drove on the property (shared by several businesses), saw me walking along and asked to talk to Andre about training and I at 14 years old simply answered, "We're cheaper." He had the money for Andre, believe me. Kid showed up in a limo every day. But my trainers were cheaper, and provided the same level of service and care, and that mattered to him.

If I had said, "If you have to ask you probably can't afford it" that would have just been obnoxious. That sort of nose-in-the-air attitude would have lost my trainers the customer before they even knew they could have had him, as it was he became a long term customer with several horses. A friendly, down to earth response over a snobby one goes a long way.

cyberbay
Jan. 15, 2012, 09:37 AM
M'does is right. This is business, and it is perfectly acceptable to ask the price of a service. I've no doubt that Frank and Andre have developed excellent coping strategies to manage hard-nosed business-oriented fathers trying to haggle the costs, so a simple question of "how much?" probably won't throw them.

Yes, I'm in W'chester and the pricing is just obnoxious. And discouraging. Do try NJ. In fact, I think often of going there, as I'm not far from the GWB. (Just factor in the tolls and have an EZ pass for the lower rate!).

53 miles isn't horrible to drive to get to a barn, as this is what I do most days to get to my places (2 horses, 2 diff. barns), as the price does drop. One is a premium facility, and one is at a lovely place with fab. t/out and good footing.

If your budget is unlimited, you'll still have to travel to get to a facility that is good for the horse. (There are some old, dark barns with no turnout still functioning in Southern Westchester.)

leyla25
Jan. 15, 2012, 12:19 PM
Our 8 year old just completed her evaluation ride for Frank. I don't think that Old Salem Farm has many ponies or horses available to lease. We're shipping one of our ponies to Frank and boarding it at the farm. Previous posters are correct. Cost per month is $3600+ and if you need to ask, he's probably out of your price range. That being said, the facility is absolutely incredible, the assistant trainers fantastic. Maddie loved riding for Maggie and Siminella last week. Since our daughter works in NYC during the summer we weren't going to miss out on the opportunity for her to train under Frank. She already rides a her school (which has an absolutely amazing trainer in Bernie Villienue) and spends five days a week in the saddle. I got the impression that Frank only takes on students that have great work ethic and and a love of riding. I'll keep you posted on her experiences.

Frank or any of those BNT take anyone who pays. Im not sure what is the myth behing people thinking that there is a selection process or like applying for college. All it takes is money, the more the better.

meupatdoes
Jan. 15, 2012, 03:20 PM
Frank or any of those BNT take anyone who pays. Im not sure what is the myth behing people thinking that there is a selection process or like applying for college. All it takes is money, the more the better.

I think calling the trial lesson an "evaluation ride" is just part of the service.
It makes the customer feel like they were chosen. ;)

Tha Ridge
Jan. 15, 2012, 03:38 PM
So a person asking for prices might well be a bazillionaire who makes the call that Emil at NJ prices is a better VALUE, according to whatever their factors are, than Andre at Heritage prices. Or they might decide that Andre is worth the extra money to them. To one person buying a car, "price is a factor" means they don't have more than $5,000 to spend on something used, to somebody whose husband just reined in the credit card "price is a factor" when $100,000k is the limit and it rules out a Bentley.


Absolutely. Like I said, I'd rather spend around $1.5k at Emil's than $3.6k at Frank's any day, even if my funds were completely unlimited. Nothing against Frank—that's just what works for me. If Frank works for you, I know he's a great trainer and has a good program.

All the trainers we're discussing here are at the same level. The differences in price are the same as someone choosing a Mercedes over a BMW over a Jaguar.

nycjumper
Jan. 15, 2012, 05:03 PM
Just for my edification since I'm not living in the US anymore - what is included in that boarding cost? (obviously vet/meds/farrier/showing excluded). But does that cover everything else?

cyberbay
Jan. 15, 2012, 06:56 PM
Price would include total care of the horse -- you would never have to come to the barn to check on him. Stall cleaning, stall picking, good bedding, all meals (as many as the horse will need to look show-ring ready), haying as needed, booting and blanket changing for turnout, hoof picking when he comes in, keeping him trimmed, mane pulled. Horse is groomed and tacked for your arrival and put away for you after the ride. Wrapping as needed. Therapies as needed. Tail tended to.

May or may not include price of lessons and training rides. Likely does not include any show expenses -entries/stall, braiding, shipping or tipping your groom.

BAC
Jan. 15, 2012, 07:47 PM
Price would include total care of the horse -- you would never have to come to the barn to check on him. Stall cleaning, stall picking, good bedding, all meals (as many as the horse will need to look show-ring ready), haying as needed, booting and blanket changing for turnout, hoof picking when he comes in, keeping him trimmed, mane pulled. Horse is groomed and tacked for your arrival and put away for you after the ride. Wrapping as needed. Therapies as needed. Tail tended to.

May or may not include price of lessons and training rides. Likely does not include any show expenses -entries/stall, braiding, shipping or tipping your groom.

In addition, all laundry is done by the barn and of course tack is always cleaned as well.

nycjumper
Jan. 15, 2012, 08:55 PM
I actually was most curious about the training being included in their full service board. That makes a big difference in the monthly expenditures.

Everything else listed, I would fully expect in a full service board situation.

Obviously show/vet/meds are not included.

Alterrain
Jan. 15, 2012, 09:03 PM
Frank or any of those BNT take anyone who pays. Im not sure what is the myth behing people thinking that there is a selection process or like applying for college. All it takes is money, the more the better.

I'm not sure this is entirely true. I know of several BNT barns (mine included) that have asked super $$$ clients to leave due to bad attitude/ not being respectful of their horses/ etc... And some that have not invited clients in after a trial ride, due to the rider simply having delusions about his/her riding abilities

And I know Frank Madden has at least a couple kids who ride with him (juniors) that have no money at all, and he finds them free horses to ride. He has a reputation for being a horse lover, and going out of his way to mount and assist hardworking, talented kids that are also.

I visited OSF this spring when I was on the East and it was simply a-freakin-mazing (ummm- the boarders lounge has an open bar?) Thats where I'd go if I lived out east.

BAC
Jan. 15, 2012, 09:12 PM
I actually was most curious about the training being included in their full service board.

Training is frequently, but not always, included in barns in the $3,600-$4,000+ range. I know when Frank was on LI his monthly charge of just under $4K included training rides and lessons. Same with some other places in Ct and Westchester.

remyman55
Jan. 15, 2012, 11:29 PM
This is one of my biggest pet peeves.

People are asking to judge the VALUE for the money, not just to see if they have the pennies to rub together.

I could AFFORD to spend $600 for a pencil, because I have $600 lying around several times over, but $600 for a pencil is not a good VALUE.

So a person asking for prices might well be a bazillionaire who makes the call that Emil at NJ prices is a better VALUE, according to whatever their factors are, than Andre at Heritage prices. Or they might decide that Andre is worth the extra money to them. To one person buying a car, "price is a factor" means they don't have more than $5,000 to spend on something used, to somebody whose husband just reined in the credit card "price is a factor" when $100,000k is the limit and it rules out a Bentley.

But to make the call, they have to ask.
Acting like the mere fact of asking means they don't get to play in your circle is just snobbery.

For the record I once got a MAJOR record label owner, not having a clue who he was, to come to my trainer's barn instead of Andre's when he drove on the property (shared by several businesses), saw me walking along and asked to talk to Andre about training and I at 14 years old simply answered, "We're cheaper." He had the money for Andre, believe me. Kid showed up in a limo every day. But my trainers were cheaper, and provided the same level of service and care, and that mattered to him.

If I had said, "If you have to ask you probably can't afford it" that would have just been obnoxious. That sort of nose-in-the-air attitude would have lost my trainers the customer before they even knew they could have had him, as it was he became a long term customer with several horses. A friendly, down to earth response over a snobby one goes a long way.

thank you! i really do want the best deal and not necessarily does that mean the most expensive. i was soley inquiring to see what was around.

axl
Jan. 16, 2012, 10:03 AM
Frankl, I was a little jealous of your daughter until I found out she has to work in NYC all summer. I'm glad I didn't have to get a job when I was 8.

rustbreeches
Jan. 16, 2012, 10:44 AM
Frankl, I was a little jealous of your daughter until I found out she has to work in NYC all summer. I'm glad I didn't have to get a job when I was 8.

:lol::lol::lol:

JustJump
Jan. 16, 2012, 11:33 AM
Our 8 year old just completed her evaluation ride for Frank. I don't think that Old Salem Farm has many ponies or horses available to lease. We're shipping one of our ponies to Frank and boarding it at the farm. Previous posters are correct. Cost per month is $3600+ and if you need to ask, he's probably out of your price range. That being said, the facility is absolutely incredible, the assistant trainers fantastic. Maddie loved riding for Maggie and Siminella last week. Since our daughter works in NYC during the summer we weren't going to miss out on the opportunity for her to train under Frank. She already rides a her school (which has an absolutely amazing trainer in Bernie Villienue) and spends five days a week in the saddle. I got the impression that Frank only takes on students that have great work ethic and and a love of riding. I'll keep you posted on her experiences.

Your 8yo 'works?'

findeight
Jan. 16, 2012, 01:06 PM
There is most certainly such a thing as work ethic in an 8 year old, even see it younger-if it's there. That is what many trainers want in their barn, a kid not afraid to work for it and who understands working for it will get them farther.

As opposed to a snotty, lazy little princess-something that also can be seen in an evaluation ride and many trainers will take a pass on...if they can afford to.

meupatdoes
Jan. 16, 2012, 01:23 PM
There is most certainly such a thing as work ethic in an 8 year old, even see it younger-if it's there. That is what many trainers want in their barn, a kid not afraid to work for it and who understands working for it will get them farther.

As opposed to a snotty, lazy little princess-something that also can be seen in an evaluation ride and many trainers will take a pass on...if they can afford to.

Yes but unless they are starring on Broadway they don't generally have summer jobs in NYC. Even less so do summer jobs happen in January, unless this 8yo is coming from New Zealand to star on Broadway and ride with Frank Madden.

Though I do have to grant you, that would show some pluck.

Janet
Jan. 16, 2012, 01:37 PM
thank you! i really do want the best deal and not necessarily does that mean the most expensive. i was soley inquiring to see what was around.
If I am remembering correctly, meupatdoes's former trainers are still around, though now at their own facility.

Not cheap, but probably still cheaper than Andre.

gg4918
Jan. 16, 2012, 02:08 PM
Amanda Flint. Look at the link in my signature. You want a top trainer thats the way to go. Just had Maria V.B. finish with a silver medal at young riders...same as Frank Madden;s Gabrielle who also rode on the same Zone 2 team so I would say that that puts her in the same caliber...
Her students are consistently in the top ribbons in any division.

ponyface93
Jan. 16, 2012, 03:37 PM
If I had said, "If you have to ask you probably can't afford it" that would have just been obnoxious. That sort of nose-in-the-air attitude would have lost my trainers the customer before they even knew they could have had him, as it was he became a long term customer with several horses. A friendly, down to earth response over a snobby one goes a long way.

Maybe it's just me but considering that is Frankl's only post on the entire forum and her wording, I kiiiiiinda got the impression she just wanted to brag about her precious Suzy Q ;) I could be totally off though.


I'm not sure this is entirely true. I know of several BNT barns (mine included) that have asked super $$$ clients to leave due to bad attitude/ not being respectful of their horses/ etc... And some that have not invited clients in after a trial ride, due to the rider simply having delusions about his/her riding abilities


Yes but most of the time I'm sure this has nothing to do with rider's talent (unless they are unsafe) and more to do with attitude. I'm sure he will take anyone with money as long as the client and/or their family are not total stuck up b*tches, regardless of how talented they are. Then again, as you stated later in your post, I'm sure he also helps out the rider's without money that do have a good attitude AND talent.

paintball
Jan. 16, 2012, 03:59 PM
Just ring and ask. I was in the same situation (in NorCal), being new to the USA I didn't know the 'going rate' for a half-lease, which was what i wanted.

So I just bit the bullet, made some calls and was upfront about my budget. And all three of the (rather fancy) barns I called were really polite and said, well your budget is a little low, but come by and visit and let's see if we can work something out.

If the figure quoted is terrifying, just say, thanks so much but that's a little out of my price range right now.

SarahandSam
Jan. 16, 2012, 04:25 PM
I visited OSF this spring when I was on the East and it was simply a-freakin-mazing (ummm- the boarders lounge has an open bar?)

Y'know, now that I hear that, the price isn't quite so horrifying... ;) Groom my horse? Clean my tack? Whatever. Have a chilled cocktail to press into my hand when I hop off? Sold!

mvp
Jan. 16, 2012, 04:34 PM
I'm very sorry that asking the damned price of all this has gotten so hard.... for adults who made and/or stewarded the amount of money it takes to even contemplate joining the horsey set.

I don't remember when I stopped being shy about this. I think it was in my 20s when I bought and OTTB and had to look for boarding/vets/farriers--all of whom I would pay with my money.

Really, it's just a business deal. You want their help, they want your money. What's the problem?

nycjumper
Jan. 17, 2012, 12:09 PM
Training is frequently, but not always, included in barns in the $3,600-$4,000+ range. I know when Frank was on LI his monthly charge of just under $4K included training rides and lessons. Same with some other places in Ct and Westchester.

Thanks BAC :) If that includes training, 3600 doesn't seem crazy to me for the NY/NJ area. I was paying close to 1000 when I left for basic board at a very non fancy barn in NJ and nothing was included in that except feed, turning out the horses and cleaning the stalls. So full service + training with a top trainer for $3600 hardly seems unreasonable, esp with an open bar ;)

BAC
Jan. 17, 2012, 12:14 PM
So full service + training with a top trainer for $3600 hardly seems unreasonable, esp with an open bar ;)

I think the bar is extra. :D And there are places in Westchester and CT where full service training can run over $4,000 as well.

moonriverfarm
Jan. 17, 2012, 12:15 PM
I am so thankful the Lord did not make me want to be a big time rider, cause I would be in a major depression, as I could never afford to pay the equivalent of two house payments a month to ride. But I am happy for those who can, and love watching the fabulous young riders move up...now, off to my wee little barn to ride my free OTTB!

BAC
Jan. 17, 2012, 01:22 PM
Your 8yo 'works?'

An 8 year old could easily work as a child model or actress in NYC. And if she does have to be in Manhattan all summer, regardless of the reason, I can understand her mom wanting to take advantage of being so nearby to OSF and Frank Madden, or some of the other BNTs in the area.