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View Full Version : LIVE, NOW on USEF Network: USEF Jumper forum



JustJump
Nov. 7, 2011, 09:02 AM
http://usefnetwork.com/featured/JOF2011

MoonLadyIsis
Nov. 7, 2011, 09:11 AM
I'm loving George.....

tenacity
Nov. 7, 2011, 09:41 AM
Very interesting to listen to! Thank you for posting this link!

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 10:33 AM
hahaha.. what shows are juniors going to go to that it will be 300 or 400 per week just because they lower the prize money? I don't see that working at all.. they will lower the amateur prize money and still charge them the going rates for shows.

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 10:39 AM
2895.00 for one show for one horse for one week in Florida vs that same amount for 5 weeks for 3 horses in Europe. No wonder we don't have good riders here.

Rel6
Nov. 7, 2011, 10:42 AM
Who was the guy who said riders will either make it or they won't?

Does he really not realize that the majority of riders in the USHJA and USEF are never going to be high performance riders, but that they are still the ones spending thousands of dollars on membership fees?!

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 10:46 AM
Jumper association. Finally someone said it. YES! I think it should be separate from Hunters & Equitation.


Definately sounds like they really want this to happen.

Lucassb
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:20 AM
Who was the guy who said riders will either make it or they won't?

Does he really not realize that the majority of riders in the USHJA and USEF are never going to be high performance riders, but that they are still the ones spending thousands of dollars on membership fees?!

It was Peter Leone, but I didn't interpret his statement the way you did.

Peter was responding to the suggestion that we support "developing riders" through the age of 30. He was comparing a 30 year old rider who was still in aspiring mode to the 9 or 10 year old horse that was still not jumping around a reasonably sized track. Sure, Peter said, the horse might still blossom ... but normally by then, he said, "You know what you have."

Lucassb
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:22 AM
I thought that Lauren's example was right on point. And God love Mrs. Patton who pointed out that if you want a pipeline of talented young horses and riders, it cannot cost $250K to have the 7 year old young jumper champion...

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:29 AM
I thought that Lauren's example was right on point. And God love Mrs. Patton who pointed out that if you want a pipeline of talented young horses and riders, it cannot cost $250K to have the 7 year old young jumper champion...

That was a little staggering to hear the cost to campaign a young jumper. Yikes.. how can US breeders even hope to compete with European ones.

Lucassb
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:30 AM
Wow, interesting to see ALAN BALCH back in the mix!!

IMO, he is totally right about the need to solve many of these problems by MARKETING THE SPORT!!!

The current model, which requires the exhibitors to pay most or all of the freight in terms of cost, simply doesn't work and has led to the challenges we have now, where our top riders leave for Europe so they can compete against the best AND be able to feed themselves.

The european model, with its popularity among the general public and the associated sponsorship dollars, is a great blueprint... but that requires marketing expertise our federation simply doesn't have.

refresh
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:31 AM
Wow this is fascinating to listen to. I love seeing all the riders in their normal clothes, speaking their opinions. Normally we just judge them through their actions on a horse, rather than their ideas. McLain has some great points. They do keep coming back to "Okay... so we keep presenting the problems, anybody got some solutions?"

Also interesting when one of the mothers said specifically that she spent $125,000 on a 7YO jumper and then over $100,000 more on campaigning it. :o

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:34 AM
Not to be mean here.. but I don't think you are going to get television sponsorship for eq and hunters. The sponsorship is going to come for jumpers because those are the people who do the World Cups, the International competitions, the Olympics. They are easier to understand for people who are non-horsey and more exciting for spectators.

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:36 AM
It was Peter Leone, but I didn't interpret his statement the way you did.

Peter was responding to the suggestion that we support "developing riders" through the age of 30. He was comparing a 30 year old rider who was still in aspiring mode to the 9 or 10 year old horse that was still not jumping around a reasonably sized track. Sure, Peter said, the horse might still blossom ... but normally by then, he said, "You know what you have."


He was nicely saying it wasn't going to happen because if it was going to happen it already would have. It's like saying you have a GP prospect but oh yeah.. the horse is 12.

Lucassb
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:36 AM
Jumper association. Finally someone said it. YES! I think it should be separate from Hunters & Equitation.


Definately sounds like they really want this to happen.

Many of the top jumper riders would like it to happen.

From a practical perspective, I think it would be very difficult to put into practice. Most trainers with competitive riders have clients who show in multiple divisions. Should a junior have to choose between showing their junior hunter and having the opportunity to train with a jumper trainer, who will be going to jumper only events?

Lucassb
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:39 AM
Well you knew it was going to happen. Bill M. is arguing pretty strenuously against paying ANY prize money to juniors or amateurs.

At least he commented that the costs should also be lowered for the same competitors. :(

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:45 AM
Many of the top jumper riders would like it to happen.

From a practical perspective, I think it would be very difficult to put into practice. Most trainers with competitive riders have clients who show in multiple divisions. Should a junior have to choose between showing their junior hunter and having the opportunity to train with a jumper trainer, who will be going to jumper only events?

The first year - 2008 - Rudy Leone did his Sacramento International Horse Show in Rancho Murietta he did a jumper only (no eq, no hunters) starting at 1.10 (was the lowest height) so many people came that they had to run the arena until like 11:00 at night. The hunter and eq in the area were up in arms because tons of great European riders came and they wanted to be involved.. ya da ya da. Since that year he has included lower jumpers and hunters and eq and has gotten less participation every year. He never ever should have changed it. Believe me, jumper only shows will work, particularly in the West Coast because there are a lot of jumper only barns as well.

It is cheaper to buy and compete a jumper horse. Eq and hunters horses are more expensive in the US for whatever reason. And to chase points in the Eq and Hunters requires huge money. I think splitting the jumpers from Eq and Hunters would give the sport a huge boost.

I really hope that jumpers can separate. It needs to be done - it is what needs to happen for the sport of Show Jumping.

Lucassb
Nov. 7, 2011, 11:54 AM
The first year - 2008 - Rudy Leone did his Sacramento International Horse Show in Rancho Murietta he did a jumper only (no eq, no hunters) starting at 1.10 (was the lowest height) so many people came that they had to run the arena until like 11:00 at night. The hunter and eq in the area were up in arms because tons of great European riders came and they wanted to be involved.. ya da ya da. Since that year he has included lower jumpers and hunters and eq and has gotten less participation every year. He never ever should have changed it. Believe me, jumper only shows will work. At least in the West Coast because there are a lot of jumper barns as well.

It's not the jumper SHOWS that I am referring to. I think jumper only shows DO work (and I miss the Newport Jumper Derby, as an example.)

But having separate associations, and potentially having trainers choose between having a jumper barn or one that serves hunters and eq clients as well, to me is problematic.

The reason that you have trainers toting their entire barns to the A shows (including novice riders and green horses right along with the more accomplished ones) is because that is how they make it financially. And it is the majority of the lower level riders that support the shows financially, too. Without those "lower level" classes to support the shows, the costs for the more elite/jumper riders would be even more astronomical than they are already.

JustJump
Nov. 7, 2011, 12:02 PM
Jumper association. Finally someone said it. YES! I think it should be separate from Hunters & Equitation.


Definately sounds like they really want this to happen.



Look at Mr. Moroney twist and squirm at the THOUGHT of the jumpers splitting off...

But it has been the USHjA.....all along.....

JustJump
Nov. 7, 2011, 12:04 PM
Many of the top jumper riders would like it to happen.

From a practical perspective, I think it would be very difficult to put into practice. Most trainers with competitive riders have clients who show in multiple divisions. Should a junior have to choose between showing their junior hunter and having the opportunity to train with a jumper trainer, who will be going to jumper only events?

Yes.

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 12:09 PM
It's not the jumper SHOWS that I am referring to. I think jumper only shows DO work (and I miss the Newport Jumper Derby, as an example.)

But having separate associations, and potentially having trainers choose between having a jumper barn or one that serves hunters and eq clients as well, to me is problematic.

The reason that you have trainers toting their entire barns to the A shows (including novice riders and green horses right along with the more accomplished ones) is because that is how they make it financially. And it is the majority of the lower level riders that support the shows financially, too. Without those "lower level" classes to support the shows, the costs for the more elite/jumper riders would be even more astronomical than they are already.

It is possible to be at a barn that does both. My daughter just moved to a barn that is a husband and wife team. The hubby handles the jumpers, the wife handles the eq and hunters. Not everyone goes to the same shows. It can be done.

I do think the lady who said hunters wasn't a sport was a little mean, I think it is a different sport than Jumpers. And it is. Jumpers doesn't currently get respect from the hunter/eq people - you hear it all the time on this board and in general. How equitation riders are better than jumper riders. And jumper riders who are good at what they do tend to feel this pressure to do eq just to get respected. If jumpers were separate that wouldn't happen. They could concentrate on their sport and their goals and not feel a need to prove they can ride because most jumper riders (at a level of 1.10 and up) that I have watched can ride.

And I personally think that it would be easier to get outside sponsorship for Jumper only shows. Like how Rolex sponsors the World Cup. Jumpers is more of a spectator sport. And from the way the pros in that room were talking I think they think it would be easier as well.

Janeway
Nov. 7, 2011, 12:11 PM
I missed this - who was all there to discuss?

Celeritas
Nov. 7, 2011, 12:16 PM
I assume this is going to be available on the archives? I couldn't watch live, but am definitely interested in hearing what was discussed.

Lucassb
Nov. 7, 2011, 12:46 PM
It is possible to be at a barn that does both. My daughter just moved to a barn that is a husband and wife team. The hubby handles the jumpers, the wife handles the eq and hunters. Not everyone goes to the same shows. It can be done.

I do think the lady who said hunters wasn't a sport was a little mean, I think it is a different sport than Jumpers. And it is. Jumpers doesn't currently get respect from the hunter/eq people - you hear it all the time on this board and in general. How equitation riders are better than jumper riders. And jumper riders who are good at what they do tend to feel this pressure to do eq just to get respected. If jumpers were separate that wouldn't happen. They could concentrate on their sport and their goals and not feel a need to prove they can ride because most jumper riders (at a level of 1.10 and up) that I have watched can ride.

And I personally think that it would be easier to get outside sponsorship for Jumper only shows. Like how Rolex sponsors the World Cup. Jumpers is more of a spectator sport. And from the way the pros in that room were talking I think they think it would be easier as well.

We can agree to disagree :) Everyone is entitled to an opinion.

I do not agree that those who do jumpers are less respected than those who do hunter or eq, except *possibly* at the lower levels - where riders who simply run around the course flat out, hoping their horses' survival instincts kick in and save them from crashing - can often beat a better rider even if that rider executes an efficient track and rides beautifully. The 2'6" puddle jumpers are drag races.

Mara
Nov. 7, 2011, 01:03 PM
Many of the top jumper riders would like it to happen.

From a practical perspective, I think it would be very difficult to put into practice. Most trainers with competitive riders have clients who show in multiple divisions. Should a junior have to choose between showing their junior hunter and having the opportunity to train with a jumper trainer, who will be going to jumper only events?

Look at the young rider who I think may well be the next international superstar rider to come out of the U.S.: Reed Kessler. She's only 16 but abandoned the hunter/eq world pretty early on and concentrates on jumpers. Granted, she's got a rather elite trainer and a nice string of horses, but clearly her decision to focus on the jumping ring has paid off.

War Admiral
Nov. 7, 2011, 01:13 PM
I sure *hope* it will be available on the archives - I'm really slammed at work and missed the whole thing.

Fascinating that this initiative comes from USEF rather than USHJA, no?

DarkStarrx
Nov. 7, 2011, 02:33 PM
Oh, I really need them to archive this!!!

LovesHorses
Nov. 7, 2011, 06:19 PM
The first year - 2008 - Rudy Leone did his Sacramento International Horse Show in Rancho Murietta he did a jumper only (no eq, no hunters) starting at 1.10 (was the lowest height) so many people came that they had to run the arena until like 11:00 at night. The hunter and eq in the area were up in arms because tons of great European riders came and they wanted to be involved.. ya da ya da. Since that year he has included lower jumpers and hunters and eq and has gotten less participation every year. He never ever should have changed it. Believe me, jumper only shows will work, particularly in the West Coast because there are a lot of jumper only barns as well.

It is cheaper to buy and compete a jumper horse. Eq and hunters horses are more expensive in the US for whatever reason. And to chase points in the Eq and Hunters requires huge money. I think splitting the jumpers from Eq and Hunters would give the sport a huge boost.

I really hope that jumpers can separate. It needs to be done - it is what needs to happen for the sport of Show Jumping.

I am afraid this is incorrect. Both weeks sold out. Last year, the Welcome week did not sell out. This week is jumpers only. There are a few 1.0m classes, but they are not featured in the main indoor. This is a GREAT show. My barn is hauling down from Seattle just for the jumpers.

Part of the reason the shows are not jumpers only is that trainers do not like to leave half the barn at home. They is a pain and doesn't generate as much income. I noticed the entries for Sacramento last week versus this week is quite a different set of barns.

Seal Harbor
Nov. 7, 2011, 06:42 PM
I do think the lady who said hunters wasn't a sport was a little mean, I think it is a different sport than Jumpers.

That lady was Katie Monahan Prudent.

It's been a few decades since she showed a hunter.

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 06:47 PM
I am afraid this is incorrect. Both weeks sold out. Last year, the Welcome week did not sell out. This week is jumpers only. There are a few 1.0m classes, but they are not featured in the main indoor. This is a GREAT show. My barn is hauling down from Seattle just for the jumpers.

Part of the reason the shows are not jumpers only is that trainers do not like to leave half the barn at home. They is a pain and doesn't generate as much income. I noticed the entries for Sacramento last week versus this week is quite a different set of barns.

(off topic) Last year the welcome week didn't sell out - which is the hunter/eq part of the show. We are going to the jumper week only although the barn my daughter rides at had a different set of people showing last week. We have gone every year since the inception of the show in 2008. Believe me, the first year (the one with no hunter/eq week) was the best and had the most diversity of jumpers. And the first year had nothing under 1.10 and all classes went in the large indoor arena. No annex was used for anything.

LeeB10
Nov. 7, 2011, 08:26 PM
That lady was Katie Monahan Prudent.

It's been a few decades since she showed a hunter.

Maybe I should apologize .. after seeing this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cYCTQ7FWyz0


this woman can have any opinion she wants about hunters and I won't say a thing....

M. O'Connor
Nov. 8, 2011, 07:06 AM
Katie was absolute dynamite when she rode the hunters; the last one I remember her on was when she campaigned Whadyasay.

I know what she means when she says hunters aren't a sport--it's an industry unto itself that bears little relationship to what it used to be.

Remember that Starman excelled at BOTH hunters and the highest level of international competition. That could just NOT happen anymore.

MHM
Nov. 8, 2011, 07:37 AM
Katie was absolute dynamite when she rode the hunters; the last one I remember her on was when she campaigned Whadyasay.

She and Whadyasay were great together.

She also won the Medal finals in her day, so she is more entitled to an opinion on the relative merits of the divisions than most.

It doesn't mean she's right, or that everyone has to agree with her, but she certainly has the resume to back up her statements.

S A McKee
Nov. 8, 2011, 07:44 AM
NA Riders Group has been infuential in getting some rules changed for jumpers. The entry fee cap is 3% for classes with 25K or more. For Hunters the cap is 10% for classics starting at $500. But with extra fees for less than 10 entries, etc the hunter fees can go as high as 20%.

If Jumpers split off into a separate league I'm not sure they would be able to maintain the 3% cap for two reasons.
1- Hunters and Equitation and unrated divisions pay high entry fees that help support the high level jumper prize money and keep the jumper fee lower.
2- Sponsorship money might not be so readily available if the 'audience' for the sponsor's product is limited to one group.

For Hunters a split in disciplines might mean the possibility of lower entry fees without jumpers involved but I doubt that would happen.

The European model does not work here. Horse sports are not spectator sports in the US.

Totally agree that many many barns have Eq, Hunters and Jumpers so except for the few riders than only do GP jumpers the business model doesn't work. However, the NARG seemed to be complaining that riders had to teach to make $ instead of just showing. And in contrast GM complained about eq and by extension, the quality of instruction.

Some of the speakers seem to not realize that the economy doesn't help the current situation. The cost of showing is too high, the cost of a reasonably talented prospect is prohibitive.

Interesting but clueless comments about Amateur's buying and showing their own jumpers rather than supporting a pro's need for an endless stream of prospects.

GM did continue his support for the American TB. I wish some of the US breeders had watched the live stream but with the lack of comments from the SportHorse forum looks liked they weren't interested.

MIKES MCS
Nov. 8, 2011, 10:45 AM
Even if one were to find a great OTTB for a song (under $5,000) who could jump the moon.. there would still be the problem of bringing it along in an affordable manner. It is as expensive to train one , as it is to buy one. The solution is a USEF school 100% sponsored to bring along JUMPER riders and horses from the ground up. There is enough money in this sport to do it.. Now you have to market that idea to those potential sponsors / donors. .

S A McKee
Nov. 8, 2011, 11:33 AM
Even if one were to find a great OTTB for a song (under $5,000) who could jump the moon.. there would still be the problem of bringing it along in an affordable manner. It is as expensive to train one , as it is to buy one. The solution is a USEF school 100% sponsored to bring along JUMPER riders and horses from the ground up. There is enough money in this sport to do it.. Now you have to market that idea to those potential sponsors / donors. .

And who would be paying for that?:)
Next year we will be paying $19 a horse per show in USEF/USHJA fees and except for the drug portion ($8) it isn't clear what the rest of it supports.

War Admiral
Nov. 8, 2011, 07:32 PM
Anybody see it in the archives?

I asked on USEF's FB page on the day and was assured that it WOULD be in the archives. Now, however, they seem to have deleted all reference to it. That's a pity. I'd have liked very much to see it. Clearly I have no dawg in the hunt (I washed outta Jr. Jumpers at 16! :lol:), but I always think it's interesting to see where the minds of the top athletes and administrators think the sport is heading.