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ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:17 PM
I'm taking some advice and rewording my title and my post.

Actually, I don't even feel like it. I didn't mean to start a war and I was legitimately concerned with the style of today's riders, kids and adults.

Why are trainers teaching riders to lean SO far foward and have their hands reaching the top of the horses neck instead of pressing into the neck? This also seems to cause riders to stand up in the stirrups instead of having a more secure seat with a better leg angle. Why is this fashionable?

If judges are pinning this, why? I am asking this in all seriousness, not to bash anybody. It's more about questioning (no bashing) the STYLE.

I know if I learn forward to much (and yes, I do at times, I admit it) I will likely fall off (which occasionally I have!). I honestly think the style that I'm describing can be a dangerous one if you're not on the right horse or pony.

MHM
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:21 PM
I have not seen the picture in question.

However, I recall a similar thread a few years back about another pony kid on the cover of the Dover catalog, and a huge debate about her poor basics, bad technique, awful trainng, etc., etc.

That pony rider was Lillie Keenan. Who has turned out to ride just fine, if you ask me.

Trixie
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:25 PM
Am I being overly harsh, or is classic equitation gone for good?

I haven't seen the cover either, but blaming one child on a pony for classic equitation being "gone for good" is yes, overly harsh.

InWhyCee Redux
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:30 PM
I would bet she is doing the Pony Hunters and therefore emulating all the hunter pros who ride with long stirrups, loose reins, and hands at their horse's ears. ;)

ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:32 PM
You may be right. Then it's our fault as adults for leading by a poor example. Okay, sorry for being harsh. Again, she seems like a naturally talented rider. Just would love to tweak some things. I think when they are then put on covers, other kids will emulate the style, and so on, and so on....

CHSatwork
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:36 PM
I can't get past the way her foot is in the stirrup. The whole picture makes me cringe. Except for her little tongue sticking out. That part I love. The rest :no:

AmmyByNature
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:37 PM
I want to start by saying that I think this rider is adorable, and her pony is very, very cute. It looks like she's spend LOTS of hours in the saddle working with her pony. I'm sure they've had plenty of ribbons at the shows. She looks like she has some good natural talent.

However, that being said, I have a problem with how she's being taught. I'm feeling that this is not classic equitation and is on the verge of being dangerous. Is it just me? She looks to me like she is WAY too far forward laying on her pony's neck. I feel that if this pony stopped, she would come flying off. And it scares me that this is being TAUGHT to her. What happened to learning to have your knee in a deeper angle, and having your hands resting on the side of your horse's neck for a release? And though this cute little girl has a look of determination on her face that I like, she seems to be looking down. I think if you start riding like this, it will be HARD as heck to change later if you wish to. (I know, because I still fight with issues learned long ago!)

Am I being overly harsh, or is classic equitation gone for good?

I think that concluding that classic equitation is dead from one photo on a tack catalog is going a bit too far.

A photo is a moment in time and I'm not going to judge an underaged kid, who is probably over the moon that she and her pony are on the cover of a Dover catalog, based on one photo that was probably chosen for 1,000 reasons OTHER than her equitation.

As a previous poster said, we had this EXACT same thread a while ago and it was disgraceful. People, like you, blamed the fall of the western world on some kid on a pony.

CHSatwork
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:50 PM
It amazes me how overly dramatic some posters here are. Seriously? The picture sucks on many levels. Would I pick it for a catalog cover? Hell no. Yes it is a moment in time. She is a cute little rider. She does need work. I agree with OP that a better picture on a MAJOR catalog that goes out to a whole lot of people should be better chosen. :yes:

Go watch some daytime tv soaps (do they still have those?) the rest of you.

Or come over here and help start the youngsters. Oh wait.... nevermind on that.

ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:53 PM
Well, I didn't exactly say classic equitation is gone. I was just asking for opinions, that's all. "Am I being overly harsh, or is classic equitation gone for good?" That's not meant to be a statement or a fact. I guess I could have reworded it. I just feel (me, just me) that a LOT of riders' form has changed away from the classic. I didn't read the last thread years ago.

And I just wanted an open discussion (which this is) about equitation. I should have added in the original post that it seems in MANY areas I see the style of equitation changing. Not just on this cover. And like someone said, it's the trainers that are doing this, not the kids riding. (shrug).

Not trying to offend anyone. And if anyone can explain the changes to me and what they are trying to achieve by the change, I would appreciate it. Seriously.

MHM
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:57 PM
Would you walk up to this little pony kid in person and make these comments to her face? Or her mother? Or her trainer?

If not, why would you post them online? Where there is probably at least a ninety percent chance she will see them or hear about them?

If you want to debate the decline and fall of modern riding, at least pick on an adult's picture. Preferably a professional, instead of an amateur, which has also been done here. :rolleyes:

AmmyByNature
Nov. 3, 2011, 12:57 PM
Well, I didn't exactly say classic equitation is gone. I was just asking for opinions, that's all. "Am I being overly harsh, or is classic equitation gone for good?" That's not meant to be a statement or a fact. I guess I could have reworded it. I just feel (me, just me) that a LOT of riders' form has changed away from the classic. I didn't read the last thread years ago.

And I just wanted an open discussion (which this is) about equitation. I should have added in the original post that it seems in MANY areas I see the style of equitation changing. Not just on this cover. And like someone said, it's the trainers that are doing this, not the kids riding. (shrug).

Not trying to offend anyone. And if anyone can explain the changes to me and what they are trying to achieve by the change, I would appreciate it. Seriously.

Then you should have started a thread discussing classic equitation.

You should not have brought the image of a kid into the equation at all. We can discuss equitation all you want. Did you really not think that a post about a cover photo of a little kid wouldn't end up with people picking apart some kid they don't even know?

If you wanted an open discussion about the state of equitation in 2011, this was just about the worst way to do it.

And if this is an honest question:


And if anyone can explain the changes to me and what they are trying to achieve by the change, I would appreciate it. Seriously.

You can get a good start by looking at some onld threads where this has been discussed for pages and pages and pages and pages.

BAC
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:04 PM
She looks to me like she is WAY too far forward laying on her pony's neck. I feel that if this pony stopped, she would come flying off. And it scares me that this is being TAUGHT to her. What happened to learning to have your knee in a deeper angle, and having your hands resting on the side of your horse's neck for a release?

This seems to be the "fashion" in riding style and I saw first hand how many kids came off when their horses stopped at the bank jump while watching an eq class at the Hampton Classic this year. You're right that it leaves the rider in a very precarious position if something unexpected happens. But the judges keep rewarding it, so I don't think we are going to see it change any time soon.

Fiction
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:04 PM
I want to start by saying that I think this rider is adorable, and her pony is very, very cute. It looks like she's spend LOTS of hours in the saddle working with her pony. I'm sure they've had plenty of ribbons at the shows. She looks like she has some good natural talent.

However, that being said, I have a problem with how she's being taught. I'm feeling that this is not classic equitation and is on the verge of being dangerous. Is it just me? She looks to me like she is WAY too far forward laying on her pony's neck. I feel that if this pony stopped, she would come flying off. And it scares me that this is being TAUGHT to her. What happened to learning to have your knee in a deeper angle, and having your hands resting on the side of your horse's neck for a release? And though this cute little girl has a look of determination on her face that I like, she seems to be looking down. I think if you start riding like this, it will be HARD as heck to change later if you wish to. (I know, because I still fight with issues learned long ago!)

Am I being overly harsh, or is classic equitation gone for good?

You get all that from looking at a picture?
I wish I had that skill...

How do you have any idea what is being taught to the kid by looking at a picture? For all you know, her trainers could hate the picture in question, or they might be spending countless hours trying to work on her position because they don't like what it currently looks like. How can you criticize actions that you haven't actually seen?

FWIW, I haven't even seen the picture/cover in question.

Ben and Me
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:16 PM
I believe the picture is of [name removed], who, according to some quick searches, just placed in the top 5 in the Pony Eq Finals at Washington and was top 10 in the USEF Pony Medal at Pony Finals in 2010 and 2011. So, obviously someone likes her equitation.... ;) She's also done fairly well in the hunter classes (understatement!)

At Washington:
http://www.chronofhorse.com/sites/default/files/DSC_4603.JPG

And a video of her Pony Medal round:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w0ErRnbaVsY

I think she looks pretty darn good and is a very effective little rider. The pony in the picture looks like he's jumping pretty hard....

Ben and Me
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:20 PM
I believe this is the cover in question.... (Hope this works for others -- had to use a link from the email I got...)


http://www.doversaddlery.com/images/alt/Catalog_Cover_MB6_GeneralLight.jpg

SillyHorse
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:24 PM
I can't get past the way her foot is in the stirrup. The whole picture makes me cringe. Except for her little tongue sticking out. That part I love. The rest :no:
I agree. I was really sad to see this type of "equitation" on the cover of the catalog. And before anyone says, "But that wasn't an equitation class," form over fences and on the flat actually is still equitation (with a little 'e"), no matter what class it is.

Napoles
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:28 PM
Just a bit off topic (lighten the mood?? :D ) but what are the gaiter type things that the kids wear round their knees?

mustangsal85
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:36 PM
Just a bit off topic (lighten the mood?? :D ) but what are the gaiter type things that the kids wear round their knees?

Garters.. they serve in place of tall boots to keep their pants from riding up. (I believe?)

rabicon
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:40 PM
Maybe the photo was not the best shot for the cover, but the pony looks great and the girl is adorable. Its a moment in time and you can't judge everything off one picture. They could have choosen the photo because of her determination in the pic and her tongue, because its to cute. Her stirrups are a little long but we all jump ahead from time to time, we all get thrown to far up from time to time it happens and shes a child learning. Watching the video she is a nice little quiet rider, better than most adults I see jumping at shows. If this was my daughter I'd be a little upset that people have thrown this on a BB to tear her apart. We should be building kids up for riding not talk about how bad they look unless they ask for it on here, and she did not. I'm sure her trainers can do just fine with her. She is farther in riding and competition than most people on this BB have been so I'm sure she has some nice trainers that can teach her just fine.

westie55
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:45 PM
This is a child who did not ask for your criticism and would probably be hurt if she found out she was being talked about in a negative way. I agree with the above posters who said if you want to discuss equitation, fine, but leave this little girl out of it.

I don't see what puprose it serves to potentially hurt a child's feelings.

Very cute picture. Leave it at that.

dags
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:45 PM
I can't get past the way her foot is in the stirrup. The whole picture makes me cringe. Except for her little tongue sticking out. That part I love. The rest :no:

I am far more worried about her tongue than her snug leg, good heel and flat back.

Napoles
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:48 PM
Garters.. they serve in place of tall boots to keep their pants from riding up. (I believe?)

Ah, ok. Here we use little clips that go underneath the jodhpour boots and snap on to either side of the bottom of the jods.

Trixie
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:50 PM
I agree with rabicon.

I think it's disgraceful that a bunch of adults felt a need to criticize the equitation of a child based upon one photograph in such a public manner, nevermind hold her up as a shining example of ALL THAT IS WRONG with our sport today.

If that were my kid, I would be pretty upset. And if I were that kid, I would be really upset.

I'm sure you could manage to have a discussion on a subject without making an example out of a ten year old child.

gottagrey
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:51 PM
It's one picture caught in a moment of time - You can have the best equitation in the world and if the angle and timing are just off trust me - you could look horrible. So I wouldn't pass judgement on this rider's equitation or capabiliy based on the cover of a catalog. Look at a bunch of eventing photos - some of them get captured in photos in the worst possible way but probably can ride the pants off of most of us.

and what are the specs for Dover determining who/how one gets a coveted catalog photo? They've had contests before - maybe this was cutest pony rider? who knows.

I tried to google the said cover and came up with old cover photos - eee gads one rider looked like they pinched too much w/ their knees...

MHM
Nov. 3, 2011, 01:51 PM
She is farther in riding and competition than most people on this BB have been.

Indeed.

I believe she's ridden the champion or reserve pony hunter in at least one size at both Harrisburg and Washington in the last few weeks.

How many of her critics on here can say they have done anything comparable?

HRF Second Chance
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:07 PM
Indeed.

I believe she's ridden the champion or reserve pony hunter in at least one size at both Harrisburg and Washington in the last few weeks.

How many of her critics on here can say they have done anything comparable?

I wish I rode half as awesome as this 10 year old kid. So her tongue is stuck out and so her foot is not as far as it should be into the stirrup. Dear God let's send George Morris for her in her sleep and give her a thousand lashes.

I was really thinking this was going to be something god awful and it's not. Why on EARTH do we CONSTANTLY feel the need on here to bash people instead of build them up? I spent 10 years dealing with a catty bunch of dancers and they were way kinder than the majority of the people that ride!

smokygirl
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:08 PM
Indeed.

I believe she's ridden the champion or reserve pony hunter in at least one size at both Harrisburg and Washington in the last few weeks.

How many of her critics on here can say they have done anything comparable?

Probably the wives of all the guys who say they'd never have thrown as many interceptions as Brett Favre. :rolleyes:

Insulting a kid based on 1 photo. Really classy..

gottagrey
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:13 PM
I would also submit how many of us look smashing in riding photos? There's a reason why fashion photographers take hundreds of pics during a photo shoot... because out of 60 photos maybe just 1 is really brilliant.

schmoe1
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:16 PM
Sheesh. It's a tack catalog with a cute pony kid on the cover. I searched and searched and could not find where it said that it was doubling as an equitation manual.

HRF Second Chance
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:31 PM
Sheesh. It's a tack catalog with a cute pony kid on the cover. I searched and searched and could not find where it said that it was doubling as an equitation manual.

I just shot Halloween candy all over my laptop. Awesome! LOL!

mroades
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:34 PM
I also fail to see where it is necessary to attack someone like pitbulls on meat when they ask a question that maybe they didnt think all the way through. OP I think its a legit question, just maybe could have been phrased differently.

snaffle635
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:40 PM
Paradox, did you know you can edit the title of your thread, as well as your original post?

If your intent was to discuss classic equitation, you may want to remove references to a child whom you do not know. It really seems like the right thing to do.

(I wish I rode half as well as this little girl.)

snaffle635
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:41 PM
I also fail to see where it is necessary to attack someone like pitbulls on meat when they ask a question that maybe they didnt think all the way through. OP I think its a legit question, just maybe could have been phrased differently.

Please don't bash pitbulls. :-)

Dewey
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:44 PM
Ah, ok. Here we use little clips that go underneath the jodhpour boots and snap on to either side of the bottom of the jods.

The gaiters (or garters, as some call them) have no function now. They originally served to hold the pants down; as you point out, straps across the instep of the boot render them unnecessary. Still, they are traditional and so remain part of the well-dressed young equestrian's show outfit.

MHM
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:45 PM
Please don't bash pitbulls. :-)

Ok, that made me laugh out loud! :lol:

And thanks to the poster who put up a link to the picture in question.

GrayCatFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:47 PM
My DH is a serious amateur photographer who regularly wins awards for his pictures in regional competitions. I cannot tell you how many arguements we have had in the past year alone about his choice of equine images for competitions (or friends' websites). Me: No, you can't use that picture - it makes the horse look sickle-hocked. DH: But the light is perfect, and it brings out the dapples on his rump!!!. Another example: He wants to post the picture of me trying to get my boy (who has flug his head as high up in the air as he can at the canter and is throughly inverted) to soften in the jaw and round up. Why: because he loves the flagging tail, the flying mane and wild eye on the horse (and me, too). Trust me, THAT is not what I want the world to see. Then, I have to soothe hurt feelings.........

Calvincrowe
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:48 PM
I thought she looked fine.

When someone posts a thread like this, I do wish they'd submit a photo of themselves as a comparison to the ideal. Paradox-- any exemplar photos you'd care to share?

I look at photos of riders all the time online and notice how utterly different they all are--legs jammed forward, butt up (the eventing SJ shot of Christine McCrea to the right on this site), pros ducking, knees pinched, jumping ahead to give that amazing hunter the best possible "look" over the fence. This little girl looked tight, focused and workmanlike, if a bit "too far ahead"--which is the fashion in the hunters.

Heck, I've seen GM look a bit wonky in photos in PH:eek: (and I always think his stirrups look a bit long, but I'm merely a perpetual Pre-Adult, so what do I know!;))

ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:54 PM
Point taken, everyone. Didn't mean to cause any PERSONAL "bashing", which I didn't feel I was doing at the time. My concerns were sincere, though.

I reworded.

ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:57 PM
"When someone posts a thread like this, I do wish they'd submit a photo of themselves as a comparison to the ideal. Paradox-- any exemplar photos you'd care to share?"

Again, I freely admit I have less than perfect form. I was sincere in my questions and was not attacking anyone. I aplogized a few times. And I think many of you missed all the good things I had to say. Whatever. I apologize once again. If you wish, please reread my post. I reworded it. It was not about the person, it was about the style.

Dewey
Nov. 3, 2011, 02:59 PM
The child is obviously an effective rider. The question is whether or not it's appropriate to critique her riding position on a public message board such as this one.

My opinion is that yes, it is. She is not a nobody; her picture is published on a national catalog. The people who chose the picture had their reasons for doing it, and I think it's entirely appropriate for those of us who have considerable interest and experience in riding to express an opinion about the picture. I don't think any of the criticisms of the girl's position qualify as personal attacks.

I am an oldster who learned to ride back in the 70s; I've never been a model of great equitation or ridden at an A show, but I have witnessed a big change in what's considered good style. Riders who have learned to ride more recently than I tend to jump with longer stirrups than I do; they tend to lie on the neck when jumping rather than folding up; they tend to use a crest release. The OP, I feel, is commenting on these changes, all of them exemplified by the picture in question. Again, the child is obviously a skilled rider. IN MY OPINION, however, she should shorten her leathers. She's ready, IN MY OPINION, to learn to ride with a following hand. I also want to add that she is as cute as a button. I would probably be more critical of her position if she were older.

Lucassb
Nov. 3, 2011, 03:02 PM
I'm taking some advice and rewording my title and my post.

Actually, I don't even feel like it. I didn't mean to start a war and I was legitimately concerned with the style of today's riders, kids and adults.

Why are trainers teaching riders to lean SO far foward and have their hands reaching the top of the horses neck instead of pressing into the neck? This also seems to cause riders to stand up in the stirrups instead of having a more secure seat with a better leg angle. Why is this fashionable?

If judges are pinning this, why? I am asking this in all seriousness, not to bash anybody. It's more about questioning (no bashing) the STYLE.

I know if I learn forward to much (and yes, I do at times, I admit it) I will likely fall off (which occasionally I have!). I honestly think the style that I'm describing can be a dangerous one if you're not on the right horse or pony.

Glad you edited your post to address the topic rather than the kid...

But the style you are questioning isn't generally one that you will see on a winning equitation rider. It is an affectation adopted by the (often top) professionals to telegraph to the judge, "My horse is jumping so good/cracking his back so hard, it's jumping me right out of the tack! Look how great he jumps!"

Because hunters are judged on the horse's style and the extravagant round bascule is favored... the riders try their best to produce it for the judge, even if they have to sell it pretty hard with their body position. I think the idea is to have the judge thinking, "OMG, if that horse can jump (very accomplished BNR) loose, it must be jumping up pretty darn great."

Younger riders tend to copy what they see being done/ rewarded in the professional divisions so it's not surprising to see that the "style" has trickled down all the way to the pony (hunter) rings. It's a mistake to think most of the really good, successful pony riders cannot demonstrate more classic equitation when the situation calls for it.

Calvincrowe
Nov. 3, 2011, 03:08 PM
As to the original question:

Times change, styles change. When was the last time you saw an automatic release in the hunter ring? I know GM harps on it, but seriously, when? At WEG? HITS? Harrisburg? Indoors? I've not seen one. And yet, it is supposed to be where an accomplished rider gets to. However, the fashion or style or easiest method taught is the crest release. Is that wrong? I don't think it is.

Longer or shorter stirrup length? Personal preference frankly--I have bad knees and tend to ride one hole longer than I'd prefer, but it doesn't look too bad and is effective for me.

magnolia73
Nov. 3, 2011, 03:11 PM
I think she looks fine- she's with the horse and the whole image is harmonious. They look relaxed and happy. The pony looks a 10. I honestly think it isn't the best example to be illustrating bad equitation with. To me, she looks effective and secure.

pattnic
Nov. 3, 2011, 03:19 PM
It's so funny that this thread was started, because when I saw the picture, I was instantly reminded of Lillie Keenan, and the thread on here about *that* cover...

I love her little tongue sticking out! I might start emulating that, were I not terrified that I would end up biting it off!

ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 04:23 PM
Lucassb: "It is an affectation adopted by the (often top) professionals to telegraph to the judge, "My horse is jumping so good/cracking his back so hard, it's jumping me right out of the tack! Look how great he jumps!"

Okay, I am starting to see what you mean. Makes sense. I may not agree with the method, but thanks for that explanation. I can understand that.

And thanks, Dewey. What you say, "The OP, I feel, is commenting on these changes, all of them exemplified by the picture in question." is what I feel.

I think I tend to use the word "equitation" when I should probably say style, or form. I tend to think of equitation being used in all riding, whether it's hunters, equitation, or jumpers. Sorry if I was confusing anyone on the term.

If people (kids and adults) emmulate the pros, do they know when to use a different style? For example, if you want the more exaggerated form for hunters to prove how well your horse goes, do we need to alter our riding style when we're doing the equitation classes or even jumper classes? It's probably not fair to compare hunters to jumpers, but I think an effective riding style that's safe should adapt well to all three. I don't know that I could effectively switch from one style to another. I'm not sure kids can do that either. If so, more power to them. :)

I also think that the exaggerated style (by kids OR adults) is a learned style. I tend to think we as riders should be trained as the amateurs most of us are. Be as safe and correct as possible. This should be easy to catch in a lesson and corrected. Or am I wrong in that some trainers DO want their amateurs to use the exaggerated style? I guess that could be possible, but I don't understand why. ??

supershorty628
Nov. 3, 2011, 04:23 PM
I think she looks fine- she's with the horse and the whole image is harmonious. They look relaxed and happy. The pony looks a 10. I honestly think it isn't the best example to be illustrating bad equitation with. To me, she looks effective and secure.

I agree, and am amazed by the class of some posters. Picking on a ten-year-old child? What's the average age on this board, 30?

Really tasteful. Some of you should be ashamed of yourselves.

InWhyCee Redux
Nov. 3, 2011, 04:33 PM
I believe this is the cover in question.... (Hope this works for others -- had to use a link from the email I got...)


http://www.doversaddlery.com/images/alt/Catalog_Cover_MB6_GeneralLight.jpg

Believe me, I have seen a lot worse on Dover's cover, and from adults!

If she's showing this pony as a Hunter, which I'll bet she is, she looks close enough to the saddle while still having that "Pony's jumping me out of the tack but I've still got a loose rein" look that judges seem to love. And who hasn't had their foot slip out of the optimum position at least once in their life?

Great expression, too.

Lucassb
Nov. 3, 2011, 04:35 PM
Lucassb: "It is an affectation adopted by the (often top) professionals to telegraph to the judge, "My horse is jumping so good/cracking his back so hard, it's jumping me right out of the tack! Look how great he jumps!"

Okay, I am starting to see what you mean. Makes sense. I may not agree with the method, but thanks for that explanation. I can understand that.

And thanks, Dewey. What you say, "The OP, I feel, is commenting on these changes, all of them exemplified by the picture in question." is what I feel.

I think I tend to use the word "equitation" when I should probably say style, or form. I tend to think of equitation being used in all riding, whether it's hunters, equitation, or jumpers. Sorry if I was confusing anyone on the term.

If people (kids and adults) emmulate the pros, do they know when to use a different style? For example, if you want the more exaggerated form for hunters to prove how well your horse goes, do we need to alter our riding style when we're doing the equitation classes or even jumper classes? It's probably not fair to compare hunters to jumpers, but I think an effective riding style that's safe should adapt well to all three. I don't know that I could effectively switch from one style to another. I'm not sure kids can do that either. If so, more power to them. :)

I also think that the exaggerated style (by kids OR adults) is a learned style. I tend to think we as riders should be trained as the amateurs most of us are. Be as safe and correct as possible. This should be easy to catch in a lesson and corrected. Or am I wrong in that some trainers DO want their amateurs to use the exaggerated style? I guess that could be possible, but I don't understand why. ??

You may not like the look... but to play devil's advocate, you could argue that it actually takes MORE control to be able to (for example) put yourself in that more vulnerable position - as you note, laying on the neck puts you at risk of going head over heels if the horse stumbles on landing - in order to "sell" your horse's jump to the judge.

And you have only to watch some of these kids competing in the different divisions to understand that they certainly CAN adopt a different style when appropriate (ie, in a jumper or eq class, where you are making shorter turns, more adjustments etc.)

Of course there are plenty of riders out there who lean up the neck because they simply aren't capable (yet) of holding a more correct position. Some are the product of instructors who don't know any better, some are just not fit enough to hold themselves more correctly, and some are routinely corrected by their long-suffering instructors who just haven't drilled it into their heads sufficiently for it to stick. (I put myself in that category, FWIW. )

Ben and Me
Nov. 3, 2011, 04:39 PM
And you have only to watch some of these kids competing in the different divisions to understand that they certainly CAN adopt a different style when appropriate (ie, in a jumper or eq class, where you are making shorter turns, more adjustments etc.)


If you watch the video I posted of her riding in the pony medal, you'll see that she does have a very different position in that class. :)

LeandraB
Nov. 3, 2011, 04:43 PM
I have not seen the picture in question.

However, I recall a similar thread a few years back about another pony kid on the cover of the Dover catalog, and a huge debate about her poor basics, bad technique, awful trainng, etc., etc.

That pony rider was Lillie Keenan. Who has turned out to ride just fine, if you ask me.

just won the hunter derby final :)

ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 04:45 PM
Okay, thanks Ben and Me. I'll check it out.

I'll admit I wasn't able to have kids, so I am not around them too often. I forget how adaptable they are. If they CAN do both, good. Maybe they are better than the adults! :)

And Lucassb, I agree with you, it's probably harder to emmulate this style if you are forcing it. :) Good point.

Again, I'm trying to steer clear of any particular rider. I already have felt physically sick all afternoon for starting something that wasn't meant to be so negative. I'm just trying to understand in general. Thanks.

MHM
Nov. 3, 2011, 04:52 PM
just won the hunter derby final :)

Exactly.

And beat all the professionals to do it. She is, what, 13 now? Or maybe 14?

In my opinion, it is inappropriate to post anyone else's picture for a critique without their permission. Even more so when it's a child.

If you absolutely must post a picture of someone else instead of yourself, at least use a picture of a professional, who is riding for a living, and thus could possibly be held to a higher standard, in theory. There is certainly no shortage of pictures showing interesting form in the professional divisions.

Imagine how you would feel if you were on this board and came across a picture of yourself (or your 10 year old child) being criticized by a bunch of strangers. :no:

I appreciate that the OP edited the first post.

ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 04:57 PM
And apologized several times. ;-)

brooksbaby
Nov. 3, 2011, 05:03 PM
As someone stated above in the hunters, many people do that to make it look like their horse has this amazing jump and often stay up out of the tack for a few strides after the jump to show off the quietness of the horse, which is ideal in the hunter ring. However, I watched every single round of the WIHS Eq Finals and not one single person released like that. I was actually surprised to see that many of them appear to barely move their hands (which may be the auto release, not really sure about that one?). So I don't think that that is "taking over" in equitation. Do we know what division or style of riding the girl is doing in the picture? It could be the hunters, which makes it perfectly acceptable.

danceronice
Nov. 3, 2011, 05:12 PM
You may not like the look... but to play devil's advocate, you could argue that it actually takes MORE control to be able to (for example) put yourself in that more vulnerable position - as you note, laying on the neck puts you at risk of going head over heels if the horse stumbles on landing - in order to "sell" your horse's jump to the judge.



Yes, but when you DON'T fall off because you're "jumped out of the tack" and your foot's half out of the stirrup (I don't like that look, but I figure if they have a good leg that's cosmetic) and the horse clearly ISN'T really cracking his back that much, it just telegraphs you're faking it and looks silly. But if the judges fall for it, well...

The only thing I wasn't enamoured of with the video of the gray pony, and which I notice a lot, is the elbows-out and daylight showing. To think of the time my trainers wasted trying to get me to keep my elbows in.... Otherwise, man, she must have a strong leg, looking at a pony canter like that and she sits it. Ponies are evil in many ways. Especially to your spine....

And while I can see it being a bit OTT to dogpile the OP, believe me, COTH is a pleasant haven compared to boards where the moderators have a pathological need to make everyone be nicey-nice. Better to just have it out than pretend everyone always agrees and life is sunshine and roses.

MHM
Nov. 3, 2011, 05:17 PM
Better to just have it out than pretend everyone always agrees and life is sunshine and roses.

Not a problem we have around here! :lol:

Star's Ascent
Nov. 3, 2011, 05:18 PM
Paradox I understand what you are trying to say about the style as a whole. The photo in question is at one of those angles were it might make things look different than a side photo. (I too am worried about the tongue! As someone who occasionally does something like that I have to catch myself and remind myself that if I fall or she stumbles the right way I am going to loose my tongue)
But in watching the shows the last few weeks I've seen habits that just make you say "why?" and this is between both the hunter and eq classes. I understand the concept of exaggerating the bascule with a hunter and that it is not an eq class, but I have a hard time watching the horse when you have a pro that hunches more and more and is almost over the jump before the horse gets there and then does a pretty good duck over the fence. I find it distracting and in watching the eq classes have seen a few of the boys do the same hunchy kind of thing. Perhaps its a boy habit, I don't know. There are definitely things that seem to be a trend right now that I don't find attractive or to be good equitation. Of course I'm one of those people that doesn't show the A circuit or ride with a top trainer (not because I don't want to but because I've had different priorities for my money) which seems to mean we don't know what equitation or horsemanship is.

Rel6
Nov. 3, 2011, 05:20 PM
From seeing pictures of the "I've just been jumped out of the tack look by my amazingly round hunter" look at Capital Challenge I can say...this is not it. Compared to some of the photos, this girl looks super secure in her saddle. (Not knocking the style, just saying I don't think she is doing it anywhere near as much as others do.)

ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 05:31 PM
I know others are much more exaggerated.

To me, personally, I can understand a bit about wanting to make the horse look it's best. But isn't the hunter supposed to be the horse that is so good he makes US look good? At least I think it used to be that way. I find the exaggerations actually detract from the horse because I tend to focus on the rider's style and not looking at how nice the horse is. I wonder in reality if the exaggeration works or if some judges get distracted, too. ?? It seems to me that it's much easier to focus on the horse if the rider, he or she, is invisible. Maybe judges just don't care one way or the other about the rider and is truly able to focus on the horse. I just still think a quiet rider makes everything look so much nicer!

salymandar
Nov. 3, 2011, 05:37 PM
I have to agree. My biggest concern for her is her tongue! Position-wise, the rider featured does not look any different from many 10 year olds I have seen. In fact, I was recently looking at photos of me when I was her age (like 20+) years ago and I see a similar position (with some style differences). She looks tight, weight in her heels and she is looking ahead with a straight back without over exaggerating her position. Is she perfect? No. But what 10 year old is? She may be very accomplished, but we have to consider that she is still learning and growing. Her equitation video, did show a rider with a lot of balance holding her upper body over the fences, were needed. I definitely wouldn't hold her up as an example of what is wrong with today's equitation or the downfall of today's hunter riders. Some of the big eq riders? Now that is a different story.

I ride hunters and I admit I often fall prey to the big release jump ahead syndrome (though not to the degree that many go to in order to "sell the jump"). Despite, this, I am pretty tight in the tack and you had better believe, my position can adjust to the jump/horse I am riding. Stopper? No leaning there! Tight turn? Probably going to execute an auto release. Bank jump? I hope you won't see me jumping up the neck and throwing my hands away! In some respects, I do believe it takes more control and fitness to control your body to get the "desired effect" over the jumps.

But generally, I'd rather see a big release, than one that catches the horse in the mouth. My theory is, particularly in the hunters, if the rider is creating a soft ride that allows the horse to flow around the ring on an even pace and jump out of stride in beautiful form, how much should we care? Now if rider's form is affecting the horse's form, that is another story. Bonus points go to the horse that performs well despite their rider's form.

Paradox - Maybe its not that the horse goes so well it makes us look good, but that it goes so well despite us and will take care of us no matter what? You know, for those drinking their way through the hunt (to bring it back to our "roots")?

ParadoxFarm
Nov. 3, 2011, 05:59 PM
Paradox - Maybe its not that the horse goes so well it makes us look good, but that it goes so well despite us and will take care of us no matter what? You know, for those drinking their way through the hunt (to bring it back to our "roots")?


Interesting theory! I guess I can buy that. :)

LeeB10
Nov. 3, 2011, 10:18 PM
Heres a view from the other side. My daughter was on the cover of a catalog for an Irish company very similar to Dover. I didn't take the picture, it was entered in a contest by someone else and it made the cover. Would I have put that particular picture on the cover - no. But she did look cute, had a great pink shirt on, and her Charles Owen helmet was clearly Charles Owen and one of that magazines big products so I understand why it was chosen. Was my daughters eq great in the picture.. no, was everything perfect... no. It was a moment in time and the company liked it. You guys probably would have torn her eq apart.. maybe somewhere somebody on some forum is and did. Don't know. Would I have been upset.. nah. Her eq wasn't the best in that picture. Do I think she is a good rider.. yup. She doesn't do big eq though! And hey, at the end of the day she was on the cover. She was flattered, I was flattered. Win, win.

ynl063w
Nov. 3, 2011, 10:50 PM
But isn't the hunter supposed to be the horse that is so good he makes US look good? At least I think it used to be that way.

No. The rider has NEVER been taken into consideration when it comes to hunters. And never should be.

Honestly, those who truly understand the concept of show hunters, or are truly involved in them at the top levels, are never the ones who complain about them. I find the COTH boards fascinating in that way.

Annandale
Nov. 4, 2011, 01:10 AM
Honestly, those who truly understand the concept of show hunters, or are truly involved in them at the top levels, are never the ones who complain about them. I find the COTH boards fascinating in that way.

Well, of course not. Why would you complain if you're winning? That doesn't necessarily make their winning ways "correct."

cottonXCblondie
Nov. 4, 2011, 01:14 AM
I got my Dover this afternoon and when I got on here this evening and saw the original thread title, I said to myself "Oh Lord, I knew this was gonna happen." :lol: I didn't notice her foot placement until someone else mentioned it and I looked and gasped, as if she's going to slip at any moment, right off the cover.

karlymacrae
Nov. 4, 2011, 01:35 AM
I haven't read the entire thread.. but yes, her foot is a bit far out of the stirrup.. she's providing this EXCEPTIONALLY well jumping pony a nice release, and honestly.. how easy do you think it is for a 10 year old kid to stay with a pony who jumps that well? She's clearly extremely effective and very naturally talented. She has more to worry about than laying on her pony's neck a bit ;)

Dewey
Nov. 4, 2011, 09:10 AM
In my opinion, it is inappropriate to post anyone else's picture for a critique without their permission. Even more so when it's a child.

If you absolutely must post a picture of someone else instead of yourself, at least use a picture of a professional, who is riding for a living, and thus could possibly be held to a higher standard, in theory. There is certainly no shortage of pictures showing interesting form in the professional divisions.

I understand and appreciate your point of view, but this was not a random picture from someone's Facebook page. It was the cover of a nationally-distributed catalog. I say this in defense of the OP. I agree in a general way with your post; I would never feel comfortable critiquing a picture that was meant mainly for friends and family. This child on the cover of Dover is in the public eye. IMO, that is different.

magnolia73
Nov. 4, 2011, 09:52 AM
One thing I really LOVE about her style is the relaxation of horse and rider. And actually- you see it in pics of people like McLain Ward as well (which is amazing over big jumps). I actually hate the stiff, big eq look with everything held just so and I don't care for the defensive eventer look (though there is a reason to ride a little defensively out there!).

I think equitation is about riding in a way that lets a horse get a job done and to me, equitation isn't about things being here or there- it's about a rider in a position allowing a horse to do a job, while being very relaxed and keeping their horse relaxed. That to me is harmonious. To be certain- the GM perfect position works! But other positions also work, depending on the application. I've seen photos of eventers like Phillip Dutton really taking a back seat, yet so relaxed and calm- it's harmonious and not at all distracting the horse.

There are basics to equitation that need to occur, but really- there is quite a range of applicable forms and positions.

eventermomoh
Nov. 4, 2011, 09:53 AM
Dover is a tack catalogue, not the PH GM Jumping clinic. Pony and rider are both impeccably turned out and are adorable. I would be so proud if she were my daughter!

Dewey
Nov. 4, 2011, 11:58 AM
Dover is a tack catalogue, not the PH GM Jumping clinic. Pony and rider are both impeccably turned out and are adorable. I would be so proud if she were my daughter!

Well, we have a difference of opinion about whether or not it is OK to critique her riding, but I agree that the girl is very cute (which I already said in an earlier post), and I would be proud, too.

LeeB10
Nov. 4, 2011, 12:13 PM
Dover is a tack catalogue, not the PH GM Jumping clinic. Pony and rider are both impeccably turned out and are adorable. I would be so proud if she were my daughter!

I bet that little girl was thrilled to be on the cover. And I hope if she or her mother see this thread they just ignore it and keep on enjoying the fact she was on the cover.

quietann
Nov. 4, 2011, 12:41 PM
I am far more worried about her tongue than her snug leg, good heel and flat back.

Yep. Back in the dark ages (seriously, this was 35 years ago) when I was first learning how to jump, I'd stick my tongue out like that. My instructor had had a student bite through the tip of her tongue over a jump, and worked and worked with me until I stopped doing it...

As for the photo itself... cute pony, cute kid. I think the angle of the photo may make her eq look worse than it really is.

Go Fish
Nov. 4, 2011, 12:59 PM
You know, if you fish through show photography websites and review the photos of top professional riders at big shows, you'll see plenty of pictures of less than stellar equitation from the best in the business. And I'm talking both hunter and jumper riders. It's one photo over one jump out of probably thousands of jumps that kid has taken.

All of you that ride perfectly over every single jump, every single time, both at home and at shows, raise your hand.

I have photos of myself where I look like I could win the equitation finals. I have photos of myself that cause me to thank my lucky stars that my horse can take a joke. None of these photos accurately portray how I actually ride day-to-day.

MHM
Nov. 4, 2011, 01:06 PM
I bet that little girl was thrilled to be on the cover. And I hope if she or her mother see this thread they just ignore it and keep on enjoying the fact she was on the cover.

I hope so, too.

Some kids would be able to ignore it, and some kids would be absolutely crushed by it. I certainly hope she's one of the former.

Since it's impossible to determine from the picture which reaction is more likely, I think it's best not to post any child's picture for critique in the first place.

In my mind, the fact that is was on the cover of the catalog does not justify putting it up like a piƱata for any passerby to take a swing.

That was probably not the OP's intention, but unfortunately that is often what happens on the internet in general, and this BB in particular. Many of us who have seen that spectacle before are not keen on a repeat performance, as you can tell from some of the replies here.

And again, I appreciate the fact that the OP responded by editing the initial post once it was pointed out to her. :)

pm59
Nov. 4, 2011, 10:27 PM
ok as a "pony" mom I will tell you that I have watched this kid on the cover ride numerous times, she is AMAZING!! I agree the cover is not a GREAT pic of CLASSICAL Eq, but really at any moment in time we have all looked like this, and I know for a fact that this kid could well be the next Lillie Keenen. I realize the OP did edit her title and question so I will answer that as well. MANY pony kids are taught to "find a distance", "ride a corner" and "get a pony around" the EQ portion comes later as they hit the Larges or the Junior Hunters, if you ride you are WELL aware how TOUGH this job is, an 8, 10, or 12 yr old is being asked to process more things than a MENSA math problem!!! It takes a long time for a 10 yr old kid to remember ALL of it!!! IMO riding is the HARDEST sport there is , and I don't see ANY 10 yr olds playing professional sports, this 10 yr old rider OUT rides most adults I know! Stepping down from my soap box now.................

ynl063w
Nov. 4, 2011, 10:56 PM
Well, of course not. Why would you complain if you're winning? That doesn't necessarily make their winning ways "correct."

Who said anything about just the ones who are winning? I was referring to everyone who COMPETES at the top levels. Do you really think everyone who shows up at WEF every winter (or shows at the AA level anywhere in the country) wins?

Hunter Mom
Nov. 5, 2011, 12:37 AM
Not to mention, most of the great photos of me and/or my kid and/or my horse are taken at fences where I KNOW it was a terrible fence. Sometimes a bad distance, etc. But the photo of that second looks great. Oh, and if we were to judge a rider on their facial expression, I'd be totally screwed. And yes, I sometimes stick my tongue out - I do this when I'm really concentrating on anything. Those are the fairly good facial expressions. I have more important things to think about when I ride.

IMHO, the kid in question does not deserve to be critiqued on here. She didn't ask for it. If I were her Mama, I'd be PI55ED!!!

ponymom99
Nov. 5, 2011, 06:23 AM
I'm super new here, so please forgive me if I'm missing something. . .

I've read this thread, and I'm confused. I too, would like an answer to the OP. Is the answer in another thread?

My ten-year-old saw the cover in question (without me saying anything), went to her copy of "Form over Fences", and proceeded to shred the rider in question, just like most every Dover catalog cover we get (maybe I need to work on parenting. . .). She dissects any pic of herself equally as much.

Why the pass on the dangerous form? Is it just a current business model?

If you put yourself out in public, no matter how old you are, you open yourself for critique. I would tell the kid's mom my concerns, tactfully. As a parent, if my kid's safety is at risk, I want someone to tell me.

dags
Nov. 5, 2011, 08:45 AM
Why the pass on the dangerous form? Is it just a current business model?


Because the form is so far removed from dangerous it makes this entire thread a joke.

GingerJumper
Nov. 5, 2011, 09:20 AM
It's a style. Many riders who can affect that style (myself included) can adapt for the ring they're in and totally lose the "hunter" style. While I'll agree that it really isn't the safest style at the extremes of it, this kid looks safe enough (I mean, seriously, she IS ten) and she looks happy. She looks very concentrated on the job at hand and I think she's got a lot of natural talent.

Am I saying it's totally inappropriate to critique her? No. I think that, really, any rider who is in the public eye (or even puts their pictures on FB... I've had random friends critique pictures from YEARS ago that I posted!) needs to accept that that will, at some point, happen. I don't think jumping on the kid as an example of the unsafe style in question is a good idea (not that OP did that, I don't think that was her intent) because she isn't really the best example of that style, and because she is apparently quite adaptable to the ring.

I also don't think it's a good idea to jump on the OP for posting; it was a picture on a catalogue that probably 90% of us received in the mail and therefore saw, and seeing how the child was riding sparked a thought, which sparked a post. I think OP was genuinely curious and didn't want to bash the child (nor did I see anywhere that she did). I, myself, have wanted to see this discussion many times (about the differences between today's style in, really, all three rings, VS the style from before I was around). Sometimes a picture would just get the brain train thinking--it doesn't have anything to do with disliking or throwing a particular rider under the bus, rather that that picture brought to mind other pictures of more extreme riding, and prompted a thread.

<off soapbox>

LowerSaxony_Jumper
Nov. 5, 2011, 09:52 AM
thank god there is nothing else to worry about ;)

Didn't Richard Spooner do very well in younger years in the medals? And look at him in a jump off!

I think that if a kid at that age rides so well and there would be no thing to improve we all could pack our bags...
Of course you should try to ride perfect but isn't riding also about making it work your style.....every rider is build diffrent and the important thing is that you learn to ride your horse the best way possible even if you don't do it perfect?

I know soooooo many top riders who would probably not win an equitation class and still win the top competitions and i don't think all thier horses look unhappy.

And this little girl looks really good to me. She is with her pony and the pony looks happy to do his job. I must be hard to say off the neck if you have a pony with a big neck that jumps round and kicks you out of the tack a bit........

Just my euro cents:cool:

bascher
Nov. 5, 2011, 10:20 AM
Why the pass on the dangerous form? Is it just a current business model?


Dangerous? Safety at risk? Go look at some of the pictures of professionals from any of the indoor shows and you will see that their equitation is some pictures is far worse than this rider's. And they are all still amazing riders who make their horses look superb, so are you saying that these riders are also dangerous riders whose safety is at risk?

No her equitation is not perfect, but has anyone actually seen her and this pony go? This pony jumps hard and she is completely with the pony, looks relaxed and focused, and she is tiny! I want to see that the horse and rider are together and flowing, and just as I see that in pictures of professionals whose equitation is not perfect, I also see it in this picture.

I am NOT saying equitation is moot and unimportant, just that effectiveness and smoothness are also important characteristics, especially in hunter classes. I am the first to watch a class and comment on an equitation issue that I feel takes away from the horse/rider combination, but this rider is 10 years, is already wildly successful, and having seen her ride, I don't find that her style takes anything away from the pony beneath her.

ponymom99
Nov. 5, 2011, 10:28 AM
"Dangerous"

Okay, so maybe "dangerous" was the wrong word choice. (Aside from the tongue thing, which isn't part of the style we are talking about).

The style of riding that is prevalent today seems to loosen the rider's base of support. Insecure base=not as safe, right? So why promote it?

MHM
Nov. 5, 2011, 10:56 AM
The style of riding that is prevalent today seems to loosen the rider's base of support. Insecure base=not as safe, right? So why promote it?

As others have pointed out, it's not the cover of PH. It's a tack catalog. If they are "promoting" anything, it's the riding clothes on the child, or the turn-out of the pony. Both of which are impeccable.

If she were on the cover of PH, with an accompanying article about the current state of riding a pony or a hunter, this conversation might be a little more relevant.

Lucassb
Nov. 5, 2011, 12:31 PM
"Dangerous"

Okay, so maybe "dangerous" was the wrong word choice. (Aside from the tongue thing, which isn't part of the style we are talking about).

The style of riding that is prevalent today seems to loosen the rider's base of support. Insecure base=not as safe, right? So why promote it?

That rider is tight as a tick. Trying to judge position from a single photo/moment in time - particularly from that angle - is simply a mistake.

bascher
Nov. 5, 2011, 01:03 PM
That rider is tight as a tick.

Love it! And completely agree :)

LeeB10
Nov. 5, 2011, 01:20 PM
As others have pointed out, it's not the cover of PH. It's a tack catalog. If they are "promoting" anything, it's the riding clothes on the child, or the turn-out of the pony. Both of which are impeccable.

If she were on the cover of PH, with an accompanying article about the current state of riding a pony or a hunter, this conversation might be a little more relevant.


Covers are chosen because typically they promote something the company who is publishing the catalog sells. The helmet, saddle, girth, boots, jacket, etc. Things that are clearly distinguishable as brands. A merchandise catalog has different priorities for its cover than say Practical Horseman. The covers are not meant to promote a riding style but are meant to promote merchandise.

ponymom99
Nov. 5, 2011, 01:46 PM
We (me and the 8,10, and 12 year old girls looking over my shoulder) realize it's a tack catalog and not a book by Anna Mullin.

The question is "Why is this kid considered hot stuff?" To quote my 10 year old " She looks stiff and is popping out of the saddle and her foot's about to come out of the stirrup". She watched the video, too. My kid isn't just a GM Jumping Clinic armchair fanatic; she reads, then goes out and practices on her small pony whose bascule is pretty good.

So explain it to my kid: Why is the current style so hot? What is so great about it, compared to the classic past? If there is another thread you could point me to, I'll go there.

ynl063w
Nov. 5, 2011, 02:05 PM
We (me and the 8,10, and 12 year old girls looking over my shoulder) realize it's a tack catalog and not a book by Anna Mullin.

The question is "Why is this kid considered hot stuff?" To quote my 10 year old " She looks stiff and is popping out of the saddle and her foot's about to come out of the stirrup". She watched the video, too. My kid isn't just a GM Jumping Clinic armchair fanatic; she reads, then goes out and practices on her small pony whose bascule is pretty good.

So explain it to my kid: Why is the current style so hot? What is so great about it, compared to the classic past? If there is another thread you could point me to, I'll go there.

Good lord are you STILL fretting over this cover? Isn't there some horse show near you where you can go and tactfully point out all the little kids' riding style shortcomings to their mothers?

ponymom99
Nov. 5, 2011, 02:35 PM
**head bumps desk**

It's not about this kid, per se, or how catalogs choose their covers.

How. did. the. style. change? And why? How come I look at my copies of "Form over Fences", or "Judging Hunters and Hunt Seat Equitation" and what wins looks different?

I'm sure this little kid works hard, is really happy, is very cute, etc. Nobody looks great in every still shot, it's just a moment in time, but. . .

What, exactly, makes this child in particular, or the style as a whole, winning?

ynl063w
Nov. 5, 2011, 03:04 PM
**head bumps desk**

It's not about this kid, per se, or how catalogs choose their covers.

How. did. the. style. change? And why? How come I look at my copies of "Form over Fences", or "Judging Hunters and Hunt Seat Equitation" and what wins looks different?

I'm sure this little kid works hard, is really happy, is very cute, etc. Nobody looks great in every still shot, it's just a moment in time, but. . .

What, exactly, makes this child in particular, or the style as a whole, winning?

If it's not about this kid in particular, why are you and your children still staring at her picture and critiquing her riding, and why are you asking why she wins?

The kid wins because she gets a great hunter trip out of all the ponies she rides. Did you and your kids put away the catalog long enough to watch the video that was posted of said kid? She's a lovely little rider - there's nothing at all dangerous or offensive about her style.

Really, put down the books, catalogs, and photographs and go do something fun and positive with your kids. They'll probably be grateful for it.

PonyPenny
Nov. 5, 2011, 03:38 PM
Go on Youtube and watch her videos. She is very accurate and gets the job done.

bascher
Nov. 5, 2011, 03:38 PM
Go on Youtube and I'm sure you will be able to find several videos of this amazing young rider's trips. Just by watching them you should be able to tell why she is consistently at the top. I don't understand how you can pass judgement based on ONE picture when you have never seen her ride in person. Clearly you don't think she should be winning...watch her ride and you will understand that she has a feel for these ponies that CAN'T be seen based on ONE picture. She is an effective rider who makes these ponies look their best and can do it for multiple ponies.

Go look at a picture of any BNR pro from Indoors and tell me that they all have perfect equitation. You can't, but if you saw one a cover a magazine, it sounds like you would be inclined to say that their style means that they don't deserve to be winning. Go watch a video of them and I don't think you would be able to then say that they aren't amazing riders. Therefore, how can you slam this young rider based on ONE picture?

And please stop putting this young rider down. Calling her "hot stuff," questioning why she should be winning, insinuating that she is a bad rider (quote: Nobody looks great in every still shot, it's just a moment in time, but. . .), saying it's not about her but then flat out asking why the heck she is winning...it's quite disrespectful to a VERY young rider who works extremely hard and has a lot of success to show for it. You don't have to like her style, but don't come on a public BB slamming a 10 year old who has more wins under her belt than most of us. Would you appreciate someone coming on here and saying that they don't think your child deserves to win because her style isn't the classic style or really for any other reason?

MHM
Nov. 5, 2011, 03:43 PM
The kid wins because she gets a great hunter trip out of all the ponies she rides. Did you and your kids put away the catalog long enough to watch the video that was posted of said kid? She's a lovely little rider - there's nothing at all dangerous or offensive about her style.

Exactly.

A hunter round is not judged as a series of still photos put together in a flip book. It's judged on the whole trip in motion. The pony rider in the cover picture consistently lays down great trips, with good pace, accurate distances, and a smooth look overall. Her mounts look relaxed and happy, and they jump quite well for her. In a hunter class, that is the bottom line.

Really, how much more do you want from a ten year old???

bascher
Nov. 5, 2011, 03:45 PM
Exactly.

A hunter round is not judged as a series of still photos put together in a flip book. It's judged by the whole trip in motion. The pony rider in the cover picture consistently lays down great trips, with good pace, accurate distances, and a smooth look overall. Her mounts look relaxed and happy, and they jump quite well for her. In a hunter class, that is the bottom line.

Really, how much more do you want from a ten year old???

Exactly. :yes: All these things you can't judge from a picture at all.

MHM
Nov. 5, 2011, 04:05 PM
Exactly. :yes: All these things you can't judge from a picture at all.

Yes. And who knows? Maybe there were 99 other pictures of this rider showing more "classic" form, but somebody decided to use this particular one because of the cuteness factor of her tongue sticking out.

Or maybe somebody at Dover is clever enough to use a cover picture that might stir up some controversy here and drive more traffic to their site. :lol:

bascher
Nov. 5, 2011, 04:09 PM
Yes. And who knows? Maybe there were 99 other pictures of this rider showing more "classic" form, but somebody decided to use this particular one because of the cuteness factor of her tongue sticking out.

Or maybe somebody at Dover is clever enough to use a cover picture that might stir up some controversy here and drive more traffic to their site. :lol:

Haha conspiracies abound!