What Would George Say?

[Risk-Averse Rider]

(Not trying to stir up any trouble here... just a question from a curious eventer.)

I was looking at the photo of Peter Pletcher on the cover of the latest issue of Practical Horseman, and I started wondering what comments GM would offer if this photo were submitted to him. (Aside from the obvious comment that he can't see all of the horse, or even all of the rider - or any of the fence!)

Anyone care to be GM for 15 minutes & tackle a critique?

[Risk-Averse Rider]

(Not trying to stir up any trouble here... just a question from a curious eventer.)

I was looking at the photo of Peter Pletcher on the cover of the latest issue of Practical Horseman, and I started wondering what comments GM would offer if this photo were submitted to him. (Aside from the obvious comment that he can't see all of the horse, or even all of the rider - or any of the fence!)

Anyone care to be GM for 15 minutes & tackle a critique?

[Madame Butterfly]

One hour and no one has yet commented. It is good that people are hesitant to step into Mr. Morris' boots....

[xegeba]

I don't have a picture!

[Sswor]

I cannot critique because this rider has not requested a critique. It's a moral thing.

[Madame Butterfly]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_rolleyes.gif

Sure, we believe you...you probably have it rolled up underneath your pillow....

or you were looking at it in the bathtub....and it's all wet now...

[xegeba]

Am I missing the picture link? Or does everyone have PH delivered. Who reads PH in the bathtub?

[Madame Butterfly]

SS, I think the word you are groping for is "polite" not exactly "moral"... or maybe you prefer "ethical"....not "moral"....

Although "moral" and "ethical" can be synonyms, in truth:
"moral" implies conformity to an established sanctioned code or accepted notion of right and wrong, whereas "ethical" suggests the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness,fairness or equity
-from Merriam-Webster's Collegiate Dictionary

[Illyria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by xegeba:
Who reads PH in the bathtub? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Who doesn't? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

There was no pix link....and my issue comes late. I guess my mailman reads my issue in his bathtub....because it always gets to me wet....

[Madame Butterfly]

Illyria's been getting my issue before I did...great bathoil you use....

[Madame Butterfly]

Risk-Averse, please put a pix link on this....we're hopelessly immobile...

[Illyria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
Illyria's been getting my issue before I did...great bathoil you use.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Thanks. I hope the pages aren't too wrinkly.

[Sswor]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Although "moral" and "ethical" can be synonyms, in truth:
"moral" implies conformity to an established sanctioned code or accepted notion of right and wrong, whereas "ethical" suggests the involvement of more difficult or subtle questions of rightness,fairness or equity <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You're right Madame Butterfly, I always screw that one up. (No sarcasim, you ARE right and I DO always screw it up)

Do you guys think it's okay to critique it? Some BB's get all bent out of shape about stuff like that. Seems a little, oh nevermind. I'm going back to my bath...

[Madame Butterfly]

I seem to have started a bath thing....Red wine or champagne and bath oils....

I think it's probably okay to critique it, but I'm not sure if it's okay to pretend we're Mr. Morris...

Illyria, yeah, they're a little wrinkly, but good reading's to share...plus I just love your bathoil...

[Madame Butterfly]

Later, X, Illyria, Ss, goin to beddybye...have to meet the vet for shots at 8:00. Horse is getting his 4-way, I'm getting my 5-way, and we're both getting West Nile. Ugh, I am not a morning person...throw back from my rocknroll days, I mean nites... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sleepy.gif

RA, don't forget the pix.

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[almost star]

Forget 15 mins, can I be George Morris forever? Please. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Think you can handle the job?

[Party Rose]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> I seem to have started a bath thing....Red wine or champagne and bath oils.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Champagne and LOTS of Batherapy (minerals) and a ton of Vitabath. Don't forget the tunes......

[Madame Butterfly]

Damn I nearly forgot the tunes...(looneytunes, of course....) I'll do ya one better, how about some reflexology....Ah-h-h-h-h!

[Sswor]

See, I knew it! No one wants to critique the photo cause it's... um... unETHical! (Its right this time, isn't it?)

[Carol Ames]

has a link been posted? Since this ,is a male rider ,is it safe to asume that, no comment will be made regarding weight?

[Simkie]

http://www.equisearch.com/magazines/practicalhorseman/

[Madame Butterfly]

Okay, it's been an hour and nobody has posted. Let's say this....we can offer a critique but, BIG BUTTTTTTT
it's in our words...not Mr. Morris's....to speak or even think to speak for someone else is a huge huge mistake. Huge!

Let the play begin. In our own words.

[ESG]

Well, I don't know about anyone else, but I'd realllyyyy hesitate before critiquing Peter about riding. Yes, he's not perfect over every fence, and he is ducking left and opening his mouth in this photo (both of which he does quite often, from what I've seen), but since that didn't stop him from winning the World Champion Hunter Rider competition twice IIRC, it'd be a cold day in hell before I'd presume to correct him. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

Just my opinion................... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Touche, just what I'd say. It seems to me that all these great riders in a schooling situation would have or at least be aware of proper form, but in a speed&height situation, it's not always easy (or even necessary) to be perfect....At their level, some so-called errors can be forgiven...don't ya think?

[Madame Butterfly]

Forgiveme, with hunters it's not speed....it's the beauty and art form of the horse...

[Madame Butterfly]

Of course, it's always amazing when riders ARE perfect...like the pix in GM's book...gives us something to strive for.

[Illyria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
Forgiveme, with hunters it's not speed....it's the beauty and art form of the horse... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Exactly...which is why it doesn't matter so much what the rider looks like as long as they don't fall off, go off course, or hinder the horse's jump or movement.

[Madame Butterfly]

Technically, Illyria, I disagree. I think rider's are supposed have perfect form. I think part of the problem today is that we have become so winning-conscious, that form (in our own minds) is not as important. I, for one, can go ahead an criticize someone's form, however, it's like the pot calling the kettle black -- because mine isn't perfect. But then, I'm also struggling with a greenie...

Ideally, I think we should all have perfect form as riders, whether we're competing or not competing, whether we're Suzy Backyard, Dick Less, or Grand Prix Percy.

Weatherford started another thread about a pix in COTH of one of Anne Kursinski's students....and noted that it is a great shot of a release. (And obviously not an old pix...). Anne Kursinski studied with George Morris, so she knows just how important form is....

So, Illyria, to me, anyway, and this is just my personal opinion, which I don't ask anyone else to hold to.....it does matter to me what a rider looks like....

To me, perfect form of the rider is just as important as perfect form of the horse. That's what the art of riding was...and maybe I'm old-fashioned, but that's what I think the art should be today....

Not saying it's easy...but true art never is.

[Nickelodian]

But hunters are all about the horse's form, not the riders. Hunters are judged soley on how the horse goes around, how the horse jumps, how the horse does it's changes. So, riders will ride the horse to get the best jump out of the horse, no matter what they look like.

Many pros have adopted unconventional jumping styles b/c they find it gives the horse the best opportunity to jump. Has anyone ever seen pictures of Holly Krozier-Shephard ride? I had a large junior horse that jumped pretty darned fantastic with me. I sent him to her to get sold, and she took him to the gulf coast shows. An uglier ride I have never seen (ducking, looking down, etc etc), but my horse jumped like he was Rox Dene, something he would never have done with me and my "good equitation."

I'm not saying that good equitation means a bad jump, but I am saying that it doesn't necessarily mean a good jump either. Unless hunters change to be horse and rider, there is no point in discussing how a hunter rider looks o/f.

[Madeline]

I think that after a few obligatory comments about turnout, how well the horse appears to be jumping, and not arguing with success, GM might ask "What is the world coming to? "

[Madame Butterfly]

In a perfect world, the rider schools the horse doing anything he has to do to make that horse look good, and then in that same perfect world, teaches the horse to do the same thing with the rider looking perfect as well...in a perfect world there is time to do all that...

I know it's not a perfect world. And I do see where you are coming from, particularly as a hunter...but me, I want to dream about that perfect world.

It give me something to strive for. And for me, as a jumper, it's safer for me to strive for the perfect form. Might prevent having my nose broke again or falling off over the high ones...

[findeight]

Most of the pictures in the book are of very young riders..like 20 or under, with the perfect body type for the sport or pics of himself. Most of them were taken either for the book or at home in a lesson situation and all these riders were big Eq winners.

I would bet that GM would say that PP is a wonderful and soft rider with great accuracy who allows his Hunters to really showcase themselves over a fence..as he is paid to do as a Pro Hunter rider.

Yeah we should all ride better and some get sloppy yadda yadda yadda.
I'm not sure that pulling a photo of a pro-and nice person-and having at it is that good a way to while away the time on a weekend.

[pinkhorse]

I am reminded over and over again - by my horse and others - that when I am in the "correct" position and asking favors of the horse in the "correct" way the horse responds "correctly". It always seems to be a matter of a horse waiting around to be asked in the right way. Especially greenies who haven't learned yet to adjust to the mistakes of the rider. There's a reason why the classic equitation - I hesitate to say "position" because I think that considering it a static moment is part of the problem we have now - has developed over the years (and I'll say prior to the past 15 or 20 where I've seen it deteriorate).

It's hard to imagine just how much prettier this horse could be jumping but I'd venture a guess that it would be easier for the horse if he wasn't needing to overcome the excess of weight to his left side and the fulcrum of weight over his shoulder in general.

I'm going to speculate that the horses that win with riders in less than classic (read balanced, with the motion, in the center of the horse, weight distributed equally over both sides and neither too far forward nor too far back - IOW leaving the horse to deal with his/her own balance and not have to compensate so hard for the balance of his/her rider) are horses that are particularly talented at learning to adjust their balance under a rider. I can climb steep hills pretty well on my own but throw a back pack on me and I'm huffing and puffing.

[ponygrl]

however, when a rider goes Pro, everytime they ride they are advertising themselves. Just like when a model gets "big"... by establishing Professional status, one opens themselves up for criticism because they are selling their product among many others.

I see an issue critiquing Jrs and Ammies who didn't ask for it, but the Professionals are a whole different bag of chips.

[fleur]

when PP's horses stop winning in the hunters, i think then he is open for criticism as to how well he rides. until then, i assume that what he is doing works for him, his owners, and his horses, and being that he does hunters and not eq i really don't think GM would care one way or the other. JMO though

[ESG]

Agreed, fleur. Completely. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

I'm pretty impressed when somebody wins, but even more impressed when they look perfect as well. And not being perfect myself, yes, it's sure hard to criticize those who are more famous (or in my case, infamous)....but if I was perfect...that would be a different story.

When a "famous person" like, uh, raises his heels in a pix where he's going 5'-6" over a jump and then wins...y'know it's much harder to criticize...It become a really gray area....

Browning was a technically perfect pianist. Rubenstein, not too bad himself, had so much more passion. And that's part of the reason we don't want to criticise these Pros that win...despite form errors, they are showing such great passion. Which needs to be commended.

Despite our different viewpoints, between the lines, we are all saying the same thing. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[SED]

When PP rides, it is like watching a feather float -- soft and supple. I haven't seen him often, but when I did it stopped me in my tracks. It was lovely to watch. In motion, at any rate, his eq didn't look out of line either.

[Moonriver]

Actually....
many of the hunter pix in COTH clearly show riders with all sorts of (faux pas') techniques & frequently the riders are names we all recognize. Oops - did I say that?????? Must be the hot bath & glass of chardonnay.....

[fleur]

moonriver--eq faults over 2'3 or 2'6 (like what most critiques on this board are) are very different from percieved eq faults over 3'6 or higher... most professionals who appear to have bad eq in a still photo are great riders, otherwise they wouldn't be getting the rides and the wins to get them into the COTH. most of the time the things that appear to be bad eq, like heels going up, shoving the reins, ducking, are utilized specifically for that horse to help him to jump as high and round as he can with as little interference from the rider as possible. it's a technique, not bad eq.
that's not to say that actual bad equitation should be ok if the jump is higher--look at the big eq classes and it is clearly not. it's all a matter of eq vs. hunter and how skilled the rider is. the thing is though that a bad rider will not make it up to the 3'6 or 4' classes, especially being paid on someone else's horse.

[Illyria]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
I think part of the problem today is that we have become so winning-conscious, that form (in our own minds) is not as important. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Odd isn't it? You'd think it would be the other way around because the theory is that proper form maximizes our ability to ride well...though that could be said about the eq/medals, I suppose, and some of those riders end up very stiff and poised - some what in the correct position, but not so effective.
<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>...To me, perfect form of the rider is just as important as perfect form of the horse. That's what the art of riding was...and maybe I'm old-fashioned, but that's what I think the art should be today....

Not saying it's easy...but true art never is. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Oh I do agree with you. I personally don't mind the duck as long as the rider is quiet about it...there are so many who aren't and it detracts from the horse. I also agree that learning to ride well, in the correct form, isn't easy, and is much harder than finding shortcuts or other positions that feel easier, though I suppose if they work just as well to get the horse jumping well, it's not a problem...just a problem for those who try to copy it and aren't successful.

I've also noticed that many who duck properly - as in those who get the best results out of their horse - are seldom out in front (behind the pommel), so they're not so off balance, and the horses seem to jump fine, maybe better in some cases, of course, it might also have something to do with these riders being able to put them together, use their leg (many of which are surprisingly strong, even if they don't look it), and find the jumps, as well as know what sort of excercises might help their horse perform to the best of their ability.

[Madame Butterfly]

All I can say is this, I'm glad I wasn't too forward today, and didn't duck...my horse bucked right after the in and out...I don't think he's ever tried to buck me....If my form hadn't been at least semi-correct, my ass would be grass....there was no one else around!

[Moonriver]

So -

I don't wish to argue but another idea comes to me - if we took a pix, blocked out the face, sent it to GM for a critique, he would have nothing to say?... hmmmm.
And- these winning horses @ the best shows ridden by BNR are very possibly the nicest in the country- that helps. PS - i understand that the most effective rider might not have perfect eq. JMO

[Madame Butterfly]

I would never think to answer for another person...only myself. But please forgive, I'm not exactly sure what you're asking or implying here....maybe I'm muddled because I just woke up....

[findeight]

OK Maybe the horse would do better if PP was in a more classic position right over the top of this big oxer..and all the show photogs snap them over the big single oxer at 95% of the shows..I think it is safe to assume an oxer here and at least a First Year Horse.

Well, I am looking at the pic. The horse's knees are dead level and at the TOP of his nostrils, almost to his eyes.
The lower leg is also dead even and his hooves are about 2 inches from his elbows.
I don't see how a more correct position can get anything higher or tighter then it is now.
The release is long and placed correctly on the sides of the neck with control maintained but enough freedom to really use that neck like a fulcrum and create the high and tight front end.

Oh, the horse's ears aren't up and PP's mouth is open..perhaps telling of the really big effort being made over this fence.

No doubt PP would be off on his head if the horse bucked on landing..but the level of control he is maintaining is not going to let that happen.

In short, it is not picture book EQ..but just exactly how much better do you want this horse to jump?

[Madame Butterfly]

findeight, that is a really great critique. Touche. I thought the original question was the rider's form, not the horse's form. I think the horse must be jumping pretty damn good, so no improvement there. If I recall correctly, the critiques in PH cover the rider and the horse as well. So, also obviously, both horse and rider are well turned out. Big question: what would you say about this wonderful gentleman's leg position? Thanks. You turn a word so well.... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Trooper]

Don't mean to stir the pot ... or maybe I do ... but with respect to his release - he is an extremely talanted rider, who I am sure is fully capable of an automatic release - why would a crest release be better than jumping out of hand?

[Duffy]

Part of the show hunter picture these days is seeing that loop in the reins, over the jump, after the jump, and preferably other places as well. It's supposed to mean that this horse can ride this course all by itself.

[Madame Butterfly]

findeight, findeight
answer this, please do
are this rider's legs in place
or have they slip-ped back aspace?

[findeight]

No they are not, they went south.

So what on this kind of great jump?

Equitation is effective riding and PP is riding this one effectively.

Hard to say from the angle..but I think PP is taller then this WB..and the horse doesn't look like he has a swan's neck here in the length department.
He's a good example of a Pro riding to help and enhance the horse over the top of a fence, not a 20 year old posing on a flat jumping Eq specialist.

Riding is about getting the best from the horse and PP is getting a hell of a jump out of this one.

[findeight]

You know, strikes me that styles do change and maybe they are changing now.

Look back 75 years at what we now consider left behind and stiffing in the mouth and realize it was considered "EQ".

Long as the rider stays secure and the horse jumps out of it's skin for them..who cares?

[Madame Butterfly]

findeight, you are obviously a very learned and experienced horseperson. If a horse needs to be helped, then I guess the rider must do whatever to help him...and if the horse doesn't then I'd like to look like that guy on the cover of Hunter Seat Equitation. I mean, I don't want to be him...I just want to ride like him. Right now, I'm not sure how much help my MeanGreen needs...he's pretty powerful...Thank you for getting back to me. I think my answer is somewhere in between.....I will find it with the help of smart horsepeople like you.

[findeight]

Well, many of us older gals like to look at PP anyway..especially from the back as he bends over a jump...oh wicked good looking http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[xegeba]

Findeight! Are you saying that if PP's pants split you would forego the duct tape?

[findeight]

http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif..so would George http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[xegeba]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Good one!

[findeight]

Oh Oh, we are going south with this topic.....

[xegeba]

What a shame!

[findeight]

Or not..as we all retreat to the Conch Republic, where it's 5 o'clock somewhere..and anything goes.

Pour me something tall and strong make it a Hurricane before I go insane...........and we can watch the sun set off Duval street and debate the virtue of the Auto Release and nice backends http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

Say goodnite Lucy...later.

[Madame Butterfly]

X, findeight, if his pants split, it wouldn't mean much to me. I mean, if you've seen one, you've seen 'em all. PP may be handsome but he doesn't do it for me. JFK, Jr. was gorgeous, but he didn't do it for me either. Guys, it ain't what ya got that counts, it's what ya do with it...

[Madame Butterfly]

Radio, remember how relaxed I was before I went to ride DickHead....well, I didn't tell you everything....

[xegeba]

You seen one A**, you've seen 'em all? MB? I know you don't really think lovebug is a DickHead...

[Madame Butterfly]

He is a DickHead and he's starting to fall in love with me. He did good yesterday...He did good today. But he's now trying right from the gitko to buck me off. Didn't do it yesterday, nor today. But today was funny, so to speak. I like to hack him on a long rein (just starting to do this....my last guy could be guided almost totally by leg and slight neckreining...) so I put my outside leg on and he feels those pussy spurs with the teeth on the side,,, and he wiggles, twists and bucks....and I have literally no rein. Good thing my itty bitty butt was in the saddle, I was straight up, legs on....cuz my ass really woulda been grass this time. Rest of the time, he was fab. Relaxed....I'm thinkin maybe he did it before we rode. Hm-m-m-m


X......I wasn't referring to A**. Go 180... A** doesn't do much for me... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Toodles, X...I've got to go wash my hair. Bug landed on my head and now I've got the heebiejeebies...(and in the background..."I'm Gonna Wash That Man Right Outta My Hair...")..

Uh-oh, just hit me
Rattlesnake of love done bit me
Goin down, gettin dizzy
Can't get enough of your kissy, kissy
No cure, don't want one
Oh baby, this must be love

[xegeba]

HOLY CRAP http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[fleur]

hmm well this topic got silly, but i just wanted to say,

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> Equitation is effective riding and PP is riding this one effectively. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

findeight, i think this is one of the best ways of putting that that i have ever heard! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Xegeba, BIG SMOOCH!!
fleur...a little silly does us beautiful girls good...

[Ketch]

What would George say about our very own Sea Urchin, who showed the same horse and wanted me to post this photo to prove that he was able to have a photo snapped on the very same horse without the pinned ears or disgruntled expression?

This picture was taken in 2001 when the horse was owned by slugger and showing in the Pre-Greens. Sea Urchin is showing in the Adults in this picture.

http://images.ofoto.com/photos199/2/77/70/3/41/0/41037077203_0_ALB.jpg

What would George say about Sea Urchin? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[fleur]

broken link, ketch http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif bummer, i want to see!

[Ketch]

Link works for me. And for everyone else who has been e-mailing me about SU's STELLAR, Jumping Clinic-esque eq. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[fleur]

okay, well it doesn't work for me.

[RugBug]

fleur,

click on the link, then go to the end of the url. AFter the .jpg, type a space and then hit enter. The picture should show up. (thanks for the url hacking advice, Fritt Skritt http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif)

Sea Urchin looks fantastic...very nice. However, the horse looks better for PP. Bigger fence perhaps? Or different ride?


<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>originally posted by findeight:
Well, many of us older gals like to look at PP anyway..especially from the back as he bends over a jump...oh wicked good looking
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif Such an unexpected comment from you, findeight. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Ketch, the horse's form is gorgeous. The rider's form is gorgeous. It does it for me...

[fleur]

thanks, rugbug!

[Ketch]

Is this better?http://images.ofoto.com/photos199/2/77/70/3/41/0/41037077203_0_ALB.jpg

[Ride 'Em Hard]

Holy smokez!!!! I know that dude. I work the food stands at some of those big shows in Virginia and hiz so nice.

I think he gots like burnt orange hair and a twinkle in his eyes. I put extra pickles on his sandwiches. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

Looks good to me!!!!

[Duffy]

That's a daze, not a twinkle. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_biggrin.gif

[Ketch]

Ride Em Hard, yes, that's him.

I think the twinkle comes from consuming inordinate amounts of boxed wine, but I could be wrong.

To make this HR, the more wine he drinks, the more mellow his horses!

[CuriosoJorge]

I don't have to pretend to be George; I AM George! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

George compliments The Urchin on his fine use of the "loopy rein" but comments that such an obviously advanced rider could graduate to the automatic release.

[Duffy]

Maybe it's the extra pickles, Ketch?

[Ketch]

http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Judi]

You all confuse me. Are you saying that there is a certain correct form for Eq. classes but it doesn't apply to the Hunters?

Isn't the correct Eq. supposed to get the best effort out of your horse? If so then perhaps the Eq. coaches need to start teaching the Duck, loop your reins and swing the legs off the horse to get out of his way technique. It seems to me that good eq. is good eq. and a fantastic hunter rider such as PP might just be developing habits because he is only concentrating on the horses form.. and not his. But honestly.. do you mean to tell me that this horse wouldn't jump like this if he didn't duck and kep his legs on his side?

Seems to me that a beautiful picture is a beautiful picture. The rider shouldn't have to move at all to get a horse to jump a fence in form like this... ideally the horse should jump and his bascule should close to the riders two point.. land and on to the next fence. Seems it would be a much preetier, exact and impressive "hunter" ride if I never saw the rider move and the horse jumped like that. Now... that I would give the World Championship ribbon to. But a horse who jumps like this because the rider is ducking and moving like this over a fence?

Some of you say.. we shouldn't judge the rider in the hunters. But didn't the hunters originate from having obediant equine companions in the Hunt field? If that's the case then a hunter rider should look like he doesn't have to do anything to his mount to get a great round. It should look effortless.. like anyone could get on this animal and he'd jump like this. Has the judging become purely about the horses form over the fence... how tight his front end is etc? I would think the entire package would be considered... How the horse jumps and how effortless he is to the rider to get that jump.

But what do I know....

[Ride 'Em Hard]

I cant believe thats him! I new to this cyber posting and who would have thought I came across my man!!! The other women tease me when I see him at 'da shows. Whatz his real name?

[Madame Butterfly]

I'm with you Judi, but I think I'm in the minority...

[RugBug]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Judi:
Some of you say.. we shouldn't judge the rider in the hunters. But didn't the hunters originate from having obediant equine companions in the Hunt field? If that's the case then a hunter rider should look like he doesn't have to do anything to his mount to get a great round. It should look effortless.. like anyone could get on this animal and he'd jump like this. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

While I agree that there are some...interesting...riding styles in the hunter ring these days, you just cannot compare what happens in the show ring to the origins in the hunt field. They've evolved to be very different things.

[fleur]

i look at the way some big-name riders ride in the hunters as less of an "excuse" and more just knowing what to change in order to get a different ride from their horse.
for example, look at maggie jayne. i remember one ad for her in the chronicle where in one pic, on her jumper, she had gorgeous equitation, auto release, perfect leg, etc., and then in the next picture on a hunter (not sure of division but it was high!) and she was riding much like peter pletcher is in that picture.
keep in mind also that a hunter's jump ideally is so round that it throws you out of the tack, whereas an eq horse and really also jumpers in some sense should have a flatter, lower jump that allows the rider to maintain constant contact and control and have eq-class-worthy equitation.
but i really think it all comes down to what findeight said: if they are riding the horse effectively, that is the definition of good equitation. i'd rather see someone ride (purposely) the way PP does than see someone focusing solely on what their eq looks like and not on how it is affecting their horse.

[PiedPiper]

Think you are dead on Judi!

[Madame Butterfly]

Ketch, I'm gonna think of you when I go to my lesson tomorrow. You make it look smooth. I like that. My DemonBoy kinda hot, so I think a little more 3-point and autorelease is for me. Your legs are incredible. You look like that guy on the front of that book. ... I like Bordeaux better, but I do have a thing for pickles.

[CuriosoJorge]

That's not Ketch in the photo, although Ketch is a very good rider in her own right.

The picture is a man named Sea Urchin. He used to be a frequent poster here - you might want to consult the FAQs.

[Ketch]

George is correct, that is not me in the photo, that is the legendary Sea Urchin. We do ride a lot alike, however, except that I am a little, ahem, leggier. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> posted by Ride 'Em Hard:
I think he gots like burnt orange hair and a twinkle in his eyes. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
Bozo the Clown shows in Virginia?

For those that have wanted a butt shot, click here:
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee/forums/,s,6656094911,a,ga,ul,780203523,ic,Y/buttshot.JPG

[Madame Butterfly]

Bighugthanks George. Damn I thought Ketch was a man. I think I don't understand gender anymore. It's all the same to me.

I'll think of them both. It makes it easier.

[Madame Butterfly]

P.S. It's still too bad you're not curious anymore.

[Madame Butterfly]

PPS God that horse has a J-Lo butt!

[Ride 'Em Hard]

The dude I thinking about is a dude, a guy. Kinda comes up to my shoulder (but that is fine with me, I like them small http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif). Like I say, he's real nice.

[Ketch]

Ride 'Em Hard, I hear this "dude" is single. Perhaps you should let your feelings be known the next time you, uh, serve him pickles? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[alteralternative]

c'mon, we all know what george would say, especially if the breeches ripped. or is it not politically correct to say that?

[Ride 'Em Hard]

Rock on Ketch! Or should I say Miss Ketch?

~~**I would luv to met him.**~~ http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

Woo hoo, you say he is single? I'd feed him all the pickles in the world.

[Madame Butterfly]

alteralter,

r u shur u no?

[pds]

I think it is fair to say that this picture is not from an equitation class but a hunter class in which case it is all about the horse, right?

Now, if this picute were from an equitation class I think there would be lots to say, however I'm not the one to say it.

[Madame Butterfly]

I think art (and riding is an art) has less chance of changing than a man or woman's likes or dislikes. We make too many assumptions, like we all live with the man. And with all due respect to everyone, I think we should allow an individual, any individual, certain privacies.

[Janet]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR> But didn't the hunters originate from having obediant equine companions in the Hunt field? <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> Yes, and eventing ORIGINATED from a test of a military officer's horse (with dressage corresponding to the parade ground, cross country corresponding to czrrying dispatches across the battlefield,a nd show jumping corresponding to the weekend"guys having fun"). But where it ORIGINATED doesn't have a whole lot to do with what it (show hunters OR eventing) is now!

[Risk-Averse Rider]

Well said, MB.

[SBT]

The Urchinator needs to shorten his stirrups one or two holes. Other than that, he's dang near perfect. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

MB, you are awfully picky! http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_razz.gif IMO, straight guys who ride English have a sexiness quotient at least 25% higher than the average man. If the guy can really, REALLY ride well, that boosts it by 50%. If he's got a European accent to go with it? 75%. Add in 25% for good looks (ie, breeches truly showcase that @$$, plus everything else is easy to look at), and you've got a 100% Sexy Man.

Ergo: PP= Sexiness Quotient (SQ) of 100%.
SU= SQ of 90%, because we've never gotten a truly good shot of his face. So he loses points in the good looks category. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[alteralternative]

Madame Butterfly, I can assure you that I know. As for people being allowed their privacies - that doesn't seem to be the norm on this board. Some people that have made a mistake in the past have been roasted here, whilst others that have been preying on little boys (or little girls - let's not leave them out)for years, are worshipped like they are some kind of Horse God.

[Madame Butterfly]

I am picky, SBT, but I'm worth it.

Thanks, RA, this is a very sensitive issue with me. Respect and privacy afforded any individual, including a "famous" or "infamous" individual.

Alteralter, unless you are GM or GM's alteralter, then, with all due respect, you cannot know for sure. What's more, and here I shall go off a tangent for just a moment...it is my deepest feeling that we as individuals often do not even know ourselves. So many times we wear blinders because we think we are supposed to be a certain way (because we were always that way...) Very few individuals, even the most brilliant, have the guts to open themselves to something new, to go beyond themselves, to find their meaning on a whole different level. In this life, we are sent messages...only the most intuitive can decipher these messages. Life is very special, and the most special part of it is that when we need a life-preserver most, it is sent to us. But often in a form we do not recognize. I have watched many souls fail to grab that which which save them. Therefore, if we are even lucky enough to understand ourselves, and that is a big lucky because one has to account for change...then a third person, any third person cannot know for sure.

To get back to our original line of thought, whether or not you truly know..is not the issue here. The issue is crossing the boundary of privacy. Yes, many do it, including on the internet. But it is wrong. Obviously, GM is a very kind person at heart. If someone were to speak of my sexual preferences without my permission, or other personal matters that could mold public opinion negatively, they would meet me in court. And I know how to win. We must treat others as we wish to be treated.

In fact, we should treat them better....

[xegeba]

CLAP CLAP MB!

[Madame Butterfly]

Xegeba, how the hell are ya?

[xegeba]

Feeling LOVELY tonight! thanks for asking. And YOU??? Please refrain from referring to lovebug in a negative tone tonight. I'm feeling like he needs a little kudos. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Okay, I will be sweet to my little pussy tonight. I have been doing some interesting work this week. As you know, I love the nighttime hours for bringing great clarity of thought...this week I have been riding him in the early evening when everyone is gone. The air, is beautiful, everyone is gone, so so peaceful...I can work. We have been working on whoaing, particularly in the sense of being able to do it after an inandout to a jump maybe three or four strides away. He can be quite powerful...I am using a Pavlovian technique, the reward system.. And he is getting it. When I say whoa, he comes back,..I mean he has his moments. But it's 75% better. He's getting that canter down (or maybe I'm getting it down..) on both leads...far more balanced. When he cantered tonight, it was like making love to the saddle, damn fu--ing good. I want him to rock back more before a jump tho' because he will go high, and he needs to do that more. These weren't jumps tonight. They were low rails. They've been really low for the past 4 days. I've been drilling him regularly. He hates the low things, but tought shit.....He's relaxed, I'm relaxed. We finished by going on a long, long walk, up and down hills...he liked the exploring concept and I like building up his ass and haunches. He's got haunches you'd like to sleep on...Xegeba, this is a gorgeous animal. He walks like a peacock.

Tomorrow I lesson out with that dude again.

This week's been a good journey. I know I'm offcenter....All I do is think about him and his work for the day. Everything I do is in preparation for it.,....except of course my excitement in possibly getting to talk to you. That is always a fun treat...

So, the night is young, I will have a glass of port, clean my tack, and think about .....(let's see) tomorrow's progress.......

Send me good karma. No, nix that. You ARE good karma. http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/yes.gif

[Black Market Radio]

I still can't see the picture http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_frown.gif

[Other]

I can't see pics either. Any more hacking advice?

[Madame Butterfly]

I do however like your pix 18 and 37...

[Black Market Radio]

What are you talking about?? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

I looked at your Devilpups pictures...I like 18 and 37.

[Madame Butterfly]

Night,night, X -- I have to get up early and I do have to clean my tack and boots....make myself beuuutiful...

[Black Market Radio]

In what album? I have many http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Alteralter, my response to you is after your comment on this page but several voices up....

[MAD]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>posted by Madame Butterfly:
Okay, I will be sweet to my little pussy tonight. I have been doing some interesting work this week. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

TMI alert! TMI alert! TMI alert!
http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_eek.gif

[Ride 'Em Hard]

yuck. You gross MB!

[Go-Go]

Oy! PLEASE tell me you are talking about your cat...

[Jezebel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Go-Go:
Oy! PLEASE tell me you are talking about your cat... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Let's hope so..... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/sigh.gif

[findeight]

Ah...Summer silliness and Sea Urchin..been too long..and whatever happened to Colin?
her probation should be up by now....... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_confused.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Oh, RideEmHard and GoGo, love ya dearly, but you babies are so pristine....Pussy is short for pussycat, in this case a term of endearment for my DemonBoy because X absolutely insisted I give him some huggies....

Lesson was very good today, but I cannot think any further on Sea Urchin...I must pursue a model who sits more upright...for example, like McLain Ward. Incredible rider (like ALL the Grand Prix riders),,,who (yes, SBT I am sooooopicky) doesn't do it for me in the physical department but, ohmygod, have you ever seen a rider who sits up straighter than him....

Today my boy did rollback after rollback, truly a testament to my whoaing exercises this week (before this week, he/we just couldn't do it..) but dammit, I must sit up more, shoulders back....none of this 2-point stuff (done of course by mistake subconsciously because I was thinking of Sea Urchin....ha-ha)....I will think of that fellow McLain...and if necessary, I will stick a pole up my.....T-shirt!

Dear dear Xegeba, I have a bit of a racy story for you..... http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_cool.gif

[Jezebel]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><font size="-1">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Madame Butterfly:
I am picky, SBT, but I'm worth it.

Thanks, RA, this is a very sensitive issue with me. Respect and privacy afforded any individual, including a "famous" or "infamous" individual.

Alteralter, unless you are GM or GM's alteralter, then, with all due respect, you cannot know for sure. What's more, and here I shall go off a tangent for just a moment...it is my deepest feeling that we as individuals often do not even know ourselves. So many times we wear blinders because we think we are supposed to be a certain way (because we were always that way...) Very few individuals, even the most brilliant, have the guts to open themselves to something new, to go beyond themselves, to find their meaning on a whole different level. In this life, we are sent messages...only the most intuitive can decipher these messages. Life is very special, and the most special part of it is that when we need a life-preserver most, it is sent to us. But often in a form we do not recognize. I have watched many souls fail to grab that which which save them. Therefore, if we are even lucky enough to understand ourselves, and that is a big lucky because one has to account for change...then a third person, any third person cannot know for sure.

To get back to our original line of thought, whether or not you truly know..is not the issue here. The issue is crossing the boundary of privacy. Yes, many do it, including on the internet. But it is wrong. Obviously, GM is a very kind person at heart. If someone were to speak of my sexual preferences without my permission, or other personal matters that could mold public opinion negatively, they would meet me in court. And I know how to win. We must treat others as we wish to be treated.

In fact, we should treat them better.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

MB, are you a lawyer? http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Other]

That's right, MB. Leave the whole board wondering about this "racy" story of yours...What a tease!

So, X. You accepting bribes? Thinkin we just might have to get you to expose MB and her secret racy stories. (BTW, I feel like it might be "racey"). Then again, as we couldn't seem to handle the old "p-word", maybe the rest of us just aren't ready for the raceyness that is MB just yet...

[Madame Butterfly]

I am a woman on a mission, Jez. I have three jobs:

1) to take this horse to the top of his and my capability. He is a champion, but it will take everything I have, mentally, physically, spiritually, emotionally and financially to do it. It is meant for me to do this, and I can do naught else until it is done.

2) to speak for those who hurt and cannot say what must be said. To insure that truth, honesty, integrity and loyalty do not get left by the wayside.

3) to uphold the beauty of the female gender. We are the fairer sex in more ways than one. Half the men in this world want to f--ck us, and the other half want to be us! And we are scared to say the p------word or the f-----word or the t-----word...please ladies. We are the most beautiful, and there is nothing we cannot do or say. Be proud of our sex.

[Madame Butterfly]

Toodles for now, I'm going to draw my bath, luxuriate in bath oils, massage my scalp and hair, down some Mediera, and do my nails....
Later!! Smooch.

[SBT]

MB, you may want to edit out the "colorful metaphors" in your previous post. This board is rated PG! Consider your mouth soaped. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_wink.gif Kids these days... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/winkgrin.gif

[xegeba]

Madame! SBT has given you some good advice! I would love to hear your racy story... Is it horse-related? Try to control the use of offensive words. Some days some people are offended and some days they are not. Never can tell! Neither can they!

[Madame Butterfly]

Not a problem....I do understand how people get offended by certain words...I myself do not, but instead get offended by people's lack of integrity, loyalty, fairness, by obstruction of justice, obstruction of privacy....and the like. I guess it's different strokes for different folks, right, kid. Racy story another night...

You would be proud of me and my boy. He said we did good....me, I never think I do well enough. We'll do even better next week. I have some things to work on....

You take care, X. You too, SBT.

[Madame Butterfly]

Erin, I do not know how to edit. If you would edit my words to "p---word" f---word" and "t---word" I would be greatly appreciative. The point has already been made. Your help is greatly appreciated.

[Risk-Averse Rider]

When you're looking at one of your own posts, there should be a pencil icon at the lower right, along with the triangle and the folder/quotes icon. Click on that to edit your post.

[Madame Butterfly]

Thank you, RA. Please, may I ask you a question. What are the quotes and triangle for?

[Risk-Averse Rider]

The quote icon says "Reply with quote" - I guess that's what it lets you do.

The triangle lets you report a post you find inappropriate to The Powers That Be (probably Erin).

[Madame Butterfly]

Thanks, RA.

[xegeba]

Bathwise... a nice tawny port hits the spot.

[Madame Butterfly]

Actually, dearfriend, I finished the champagne that was a gift from one of my more artistic and racier friends. ... Do not fear for our friendship. I am good at separating the bubbles from the bathoil.

[Madame Butterfly]

NEW STAMP PROBLEMS: IT'S ALL A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE

The U.S. Postal Service created a stamp with a picture of Senator Hillary Clinton to honor her achievements as the First Lady of our nation. In daily use it was shown that the stamp was not sticdking to envelopes. This enraged Senator Clinton, who demanded a full investigation.

After a full month of testing, a special presidential commission made the following findings:

- The stamp was in perfect order.
- There was nothing wrong with the applied adhesive.
- People were spitting on the wrong side.

[FUTUREJUMPER]

OKAY, I am new, went back did some research on Sea Urchin! STILL CONFUSED!!! Is he for real or a figment of the imagination??? By the way, you guys are FUNNY!!!! I love it!

[Madame Butterfly]

Funny, we're funny?

From what I gather, he's for real...

[FUTUREJUMPER]

I just was going back and reading old threads and found them entertaining and I need a good time at work every once in a while!!! Oh, I didn't mean it in a bad way, either!!!! I hope you didn't take it that way! I love a good sense of humor and it seems like alot people on here have one!!

[Go-Go]

He's a real person. I've seen him. At Upperville. But I was too chicken to talk to him.

[Madame Butterfly]

Don't worry, Panda. I never take it that way. Our discussions are often serious and funny at the same time. Sometimes we are laughing at others, sometimes we are laughing at ourselves. And sometimes we aren't so nice. But we're all human, so that gives us one characteristic in common to start with...

When you're at work, sometimes you need more than one thread...Might want to go to the horrible-scopes....then your boss will get really po'd.... http://chronicleforums.com/images/custom_smilies/lol.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Go-Go, you were chicken? Naw....

[Go-Go]

I'm way chicken.

[Madame Butterfly]

I guess it happens to all of us once in a while. But it shouldn't. People misread it. Perhaps you\we should say instead...I just got tongue-tied...Besides what would he do if you came up to him with a beautiful smile....Smile back?

[Go-Go]

It's not a shy thing. I'm not shy. You'd have to know the Legend of the Sea Urchin to fully comprehend, I think.

[FUTUREJUMPER]

MB, the BB is a great thing to have on the slow days at work! Glad I found it!!!! So far, I think I'm on my way to becoming an COTH addict!!!

[Go-Go]

And I like being chicken. Brawk brawk!

[Madame Butterfly]

I think I understand. I think we all have our own Urchin.

It's good to like who you are. I do. Damn, if we let everyone tell us what we should be like, we'd be a pack of Stepford Wives...

Beware the Full Moon. It is at the beginning and end of this month. Demands honesty of us all or we will be found out...People are more sensitive than usual. Like we're all on ther rag..

Roosters were the big thing in our house. http://chronicleforums.com/groupee_common/emoticons/icon_smile.gif

[Madame Butterfly]

Ygads. Just read the Skelton and Smith news flash. Isn't it amazing how fast this business changes. Or is the word, turns over...Cool.