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View Full Version : Anyone Want to Switch Their Horse's Shoes to What Fuego Wears?



Mike Matson
Oct. 23, 2011, 02:14 AM
Interesting and unusual! :yes:

http://hoofcare.blogspot.com/2011/10/dressage-fuego-style-its-whats.html

TheJenners
Oct. 23, 2011, 03:04 AM
It's like shape-ups for horses :lol:

manentail
Oct. 23, 2011, 05:35 AM
I want some, bet they are expensive if you can find them.

Po-Po
Oct. 23, 2011, 07:19 AM
Very interesting....thanks for posting this. :)

ironbessflint
Oct. 23, 2011, 09:56 AM
I want some, bet they are expensive if you can find them.

Especially if you have to fly your farrier in from Italy!

Daydream Believer
Oct. 23, 2011, 10:13 AM
Very cool!

alicen
Oct. 23, 2011, 12:37 PM
Italian shoes: they have always been the best.

Mike Matson
Oct. 23, 2011, 12:42 PM
:lol:

Velvet
Oct. 23, 2011, 01:19 PM
Sliding shoes for reiners. Weighted shoes for SBs and rackers.

Now we're going for shoes that will help our dressage horses perform movements. :sigh: I don't see these as being good. In the sense that when we start adding crutches and additional specialty needs for our horses to perform the movements of dressage we have stepped far away from what dressage is supposed to be: the training of the horse and helping him develop movements he naturally performs in the field.

Beentheredonethat
Oct. 23, 2011, 02:39 PM
Well, interesting, but not surprising. As it says, at the very top, it's getting to be the little things that count, and the archaic way of shoeing horses has been around a long time. At least trying something that might be more beneficial is a good idea, though I dunno about that one. I did just get some Vibrams, and the difference in walking and how my feet feel with them versus other shoes is amazing. You'd think we could do that more for horses, where their feet can move and spread like they're supposed to and have protection as needed.

I kind of agree with Velvet, too. Dressage tends to be so gimmicky anyway, and I can see people getting out of control with this. Really horses should be able to do all of this barefoot and sound for the most part. (Yes, mine are.) Of course there are variations, but what are we doing when we're getting into such specialized shoes. I can see how those shoes would dig into the footing and give more support in pirouettes and such, but they seem very odd on harder flat ground, like those platform shoes that break your ankles if you fall sideways.

SaddleFitterVA
Oct. 23, 2011, 03:04 PM
Are they to help the horse's perform movements? Or to help the horse's stay sound, by reducing the amount of stress on the joints?

My immediate thought, before reading the article, was worry along the lines of what Velvet wrote, but I'm all in favor of shoes that keep a horse sound.

Horse shoes, shoeing methods, computer modeling of movement and imaging have come a long way to make things better.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't magically have piaffe and passage installed on my horse if I just took those shoes and convinced my farrier to use them. In fact, I bet the amount of diagnostics and analysis that goes into a shoe choice like that is pretty cost-prohibitive for the vast majority of riders.

dragonharte8
Oct. 23, 2011, 04:27 PM
My concern is what increase occurs to the impact forces upon the sole of the foot? By design it would appear that the impact forces upon the sole would increase over normal shoeing or barefooting. There should then be long term negative results which will then being to appear in the foot and lower joints. Just questions I would ask.

Sacred_Petra
Oct. 23, 2011, 04:27 PM
I know several horses, mine included, who I think could benefit from using a shoe like this a temporary and/or corrective shoeing, especially if they actually do take the pressure off the hoof wall.

Hampton Bay
Oct. 23, 2011, 08:16 PM
I have two horses in Eponas, and both of them have worn the sides a bit rounded. Not that extreme of course, but does make you think.

candico
Oct. 23, 2011, 08:25 PM
What I got out of the article, is that perhaps the footing is causing new problems with torque since with the geotextiles the hoof stays on top of the footing. Although it provides cushion to help with concussion, it sounds like things such as ten meter circles and steep half passes, pirouettes, etc. may be causing more problems with ringbone and other torque related issues. Now I might reconsider putting GGT in the round pen...

Simkie
Oct. 23, 2011, 08:38 PM
Reminds me a bit of the wooden horse shoes: http://www.thehorse.com/ViewArticle.aspx?ID=11718

ohrebecca
Oct. 23, 2011, 11:17 PM
Sliding shoes for reiners. Weighted shoes for SBs and rackers.

Now we're going for shoes that will help our dressage horses perform movements. :sigh: I don't see these as being good. In the sense that when we start adding crutches and additional specialty needs for our horses to perform the movements of dressage we have stepped far away from what dressage is supposed to be: the training of the horse and helping him develop movements he naturally performs in the field.

This is exactly what I was thinking while reading the article.

MLD
Oct. 24, 2011, 07:26 PM
Sliding shoes for reiners. Weighted shoes for SBs and rackers.

Now we're going for shoes that will help our dressage horses perform movements. :sigh: I don't see these as being good. In the sense that when we start adding crutches and additional specialty needs for our horses to perform the movements of dressage we have stepped far away from what dressage is supposed to be: the training of the horse and helping him develop movements he naturally performs in the field.

Do we call it a crutch when a football player wears a special shoe that Nike made just for them? Or how about all those Air Nikes that basketball players wear? And I don't think that football players are going to wear the same shoe as a basketball player.

What makes it ok for human athletes to wear shoes specialized for their sport and/or surface they are playing and not ok for athletic horses? Human athletes wear all kinds of protective and specialized gear that is suited for their individual sports. Tennis players don't wear cleats and golfers don't wear slick soled bowling shoes. My point being, is that different sports require different footwear... why shouldn't that also pertain to different disciplines of riding. After all, the sport of dressage is so not like the sport of barrel racing other than it is done on the back of a horse.

If there is technology out there that will help relieve the physical stress of performance for our horses ... what is so wrong with that?

Horseymama
Oct. 24, 2011, 11:21 PM
"Hans continues, "As the competition arenas become stiffer (less penetrable) due to the use of geotextile-type surfaces, the large amount of sideways work dressage horses perform (pirouette, small circles, shoulder-in etc.) can, in selected cases, be facilitated by the use of these shoes.'"


My question is, Why are we making competition arenas stiffer? Is that better?

silvia
Oct. 25, 2011, 04:53 AM
Are they to help the horse's perform movements? Or to help the horse's stay sound, by reducing the amount of stress on the joints?

They reduce the breakover sideways on the hoof allowing the hoof to be able to get off the ground quicker and easier

Velvet
Oct. 25, 2011, 07:14 PM
"Hans continues, "As the competition arenas become stiffer (less penetrable) due to the use of geotextile-type surfaces, the large amount of sideways work dressage horses perform (pirouette, small circles, shoulder-in etc.) can, in selected cases, be facilitated by the use of these shoes.'"


My question is, Why are we making competition arenas stiffer? Is that better?

Good question. Is it for drainage so competitions can continue rain or shine? Is it for the horses? If so, then why would there be a need for special shoes?

I still see this as a possible slippery slope. With the extravagant movers we have nowadays, will people be adding to it via the shoes (meaning same design but not light) and will judges reward it over time?

Is is that we're inbreeding so much that we're creating horses that are less able to handle the strains of dressage as we now know it?

I'm just not yet convinced this is an improvement. I guess we'll all have to wait and see.

alicen
Oct. 25, 2011, 07:26 PM
I still see this as a possible slippery slope. With the extravagant movers we have nowadays, will people be adding to it via the shoes (meaning same design but not light) and will judges reward it over time?

I think the design of the shoes are aimed at reducing the torque and friction of the traditional shoe.

LarkspurCO
Oct. 26, 2011, 12:46 AM
The shoe is not a new invention and I don't believe this in any way constitutes a crutch or a slippery slope. Farriery is an evolving science, and I am all for doing what it takes to help a horse do his job more efficiently.

For various reasons, I've had my horses in Steward clogs (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/ishop/products/EDSS-Steward-Clog.html), PLR (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/ishop/products/Aluminum-Performance-Leverage-Reduction-%28PLR%29-Shoes.html) and Centre Fit (http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/ishop/products/Steel-Centre-Fit-FRONT-Shoes.html) shoes, all of which are conceptually similar (the clogs especially) in facilitating breakover in all directions. My farrier has some horses that live and work in clogs year-round, including one barrel racer.

This from the PLR description explains a bit more about the biomechanics behind this "rock and roll" concept:

"As the demands on performance horses has increased over the decades, so has a need to update the way we care for their feet. The latest information regarding pathology in pleasure and performance horses is suggesting that the lack of leverage relief offered by either foot wear or the terrain is a primary cause. ...

... Strain or lesions on the DDFT and the connective tissue around the coffin (DIP) joint is a growing concern based on MRI findings over the last several years. Because horses were not particularly designed to turn and run in tight circles, the joints in the lower limb, especially the coffin joint takes a beating. When the connective tissue and the joint surface itself becomes traumatized, the soundness & performance of the horse rapidly decreases. ...

... Reducing the leverage to the joint by bringing the breakover point of a shoe within a given proximity to the center of articulation has proven to be extremely beneficial as a treatment protocol. When this approach also includes the reduction of leverage both medially and laterally, the results are even better. ...

... Now that we have a better understanding of the causes to so many of these pathologies, and the treatments that are working to remedy them, we now have some guidelines on how to prevent these lameness issues."

dragonharte8
Oct. 26, 2011, 11:07 AM
LarkspurCO

Like what you posted, however, where is the evidence throught MRI's etc. that this design is actually a benefit?

I ask because this design increases impact forces upon the sole which is the protection for the coffin bone, etc.......

It took years before the toe grab horseshoe was not allowed in CA racing because it actually was causing negative forces upon the foot......

LarkspurCO
Oct. 26, 2011, 11:41 AM
If you email EDSS I'm sure they could tell you where to find additional information regarding the research, MRI evidence, etc.

I would not assume increased or excessive sole pressure (besides which, some sole pressure is usually a good thing). You would have to see how the shoe was applied, what sort of pads/packing was added, etc. Also note that the shoe does cover the entire bottom of the foot, so that would distribute the pressure across the entire hoof, rather than concentrating it in the center.

One thing is for sure -- if the sole pressure is excessive the horse will let you know right away.:)

As for the Steward clog, which my horse wore after she foundered, an area is hollowed out beneath the tip of P3, to prevent pressure being applied there. Take a look at the photo:
http://www.hopeforsoundness.com/ishop/products/EDSS-Steward-Clog.html

paintlady
Oct. 26, 2011, 12:28 PM
Really horses should be able to do all of this barefoot and sound for the most part. (Yes, mine are.)

I only show Training Level, but love that my horse is barefoot... especially when I pay my $30 farrier bill.

carolprudm
Oct. 26, 2011, 12:35 PM
Good question. Is it for drainage so competitions can continue rain or shine? Is it for the horses? If so, then why would there be a need for special shoes?

.
FWIW I just installed a GGT textile arena primarly becasue it should need less water over the long run. It's resliant and supportve without being deep

dragonharte8
Oct. 26, 2011, 01:16 PM
Something to ponder.

Years and years ago when I really got into horses, I worked on very large cattle ranch in MT....where the majority of horses were barefoot. Seems they stayed sound through all of the torqueing on their limbs....

So the requirement of these 'protective' shoes makes me ponder the affect that a particular rider and/or schooling method has upon the lower limbs especially the foot.

CosMonster
Oct. 26, 2011, 01:30 PM
Do we call it a crutch when a football player wears a special shoe that Nike made just for them? Or how about all those Air Nikes that basketball players wear? And I don't think that football players are going to wear the same shoe as a basketball player.

What makes it ok for human athletes to wear shoes specialized for their sport and/or surface they are playing and not ok for athletic horses? Human athletes wear all kinds of protective and specialized gear that is suited for their individual sports. Tennis players don't wear cleats and golfers don't wear slick soled bowling shoes. My point being, is that different sports require different footwear... why shouldn't that also pertain to different disciplines of riding. After all, the sport of dressage is so not like the sport of barrel racing other than it is done on the back of a horse.

If there is technology out there that will help relieve the physical stress of performance for our horses ... what is so wrong with that?

I think there is a point where you can reasonably draw a line. I don't care for the practicing of stacking gaited horses, for example, because I don't think it's just enabling them to perform well or safely, but enhancing them to an unnatural degree. I never hear people complain about the use of studs for riding on grass, for example, which would be more analogous to your point about cleats. And we do all kinds of shoeing designed to make it more comfortable and easier for a horse to perform to the best of his ability (see: the entire practice of horseshoeing ;)) and no one minds that except some pretty out-there barefoot folks. But I do think a reasonable person can look at some shoeing practices and think they go too far, and aren't that analogous to athletic shoes in people.

That said, I don't think this shoe falls into that category. It was an interesting article, so thanks OP. :)

merrygoround
Oct. 26, 2011, 01:40 PM
Are they to help the horse's perform movements? Or to help the horse's stay sound, by reducing the amount of stress on the joints?

My immediate thought, before reading the article, was worry along the lines of what Velvet wrote, but I'm all in favor of shoes that keep a horse sound.

Horse shoes, shoeing methods, computer modeling of movement and imaging have come a long way to make things better.

I'm pretty sure I wouldn't magically have piaffe and passage installed on my horse if I just took those shoes and convinced my farrier to use them. In fact, I bet the amount of diagnostics and analysis that goes into a shoe choice like that is pretty cost-prohibitive for the vast majority of riders.

And while a horse may perform some of these movements naturally, he does not do it repetitively. And that is what builds the stress to these joints.

Fillabeana
Oct. 26, 2011, 02:09 PM
I worked on very large cattle ranch in MT....where the majority of horses were barefoot. Seems they stayed sound through all of the torqueing [sic]on their limbs....

Let me assure you all that most ranches don't have mostly barefoot horses.

I completely believe that there are some remudas on ranches that have barefoot horses. Absolutely. There ARE ranches where the horses are barefoot.

But:
1)The ranch will have to be in an area where there are not a whole lot of rocks. Usually, where grass grows well and there aren't a lot of rocks, that is used as farmland, to grow wheat, corn, hay, or something else. Or, there is a lot of wet, marshy area so that horses' shoes get pulled off so often that they don't bother to shoe them in the first place.
2)On some of the REALLY big ranches, where each cowboy has 8 or 9 horses to ride, they ride one horse per day, and so each horse gets ridden 3 or 4 times in a month. A barefoot horse, with really good feet, on a ranch that isn't overrun with rocks, can do that.

We have a fairly rocky ranch, and a hay ranch where the cattle winter. If a horse has decent feet, he doesn't need shoes overwinter (at the hay ranch), even if he's working. Most of the work is on hayfields, they are sodded over and the hooves won't wear a whole lot. But, if the horses were needed in the snow and ice (we can bribe cows into the corral with feed, so we don't have to use the horses in the snow and ice), they would need shoes with caulks, and snow pads, so they didn't fall down.

A person could trail ride, or even condition an endurance horse, on our summer ranch, riding all over on the trails in 'pastures' where the cows graze. (These pastures are usually at least a square mile, if not 5 or 6, and not irrigated or lush.) If their horse had decent feet, it would not need shoes. But the cattle go graze in the rocks, and when you go gather them and move them, the cows WILL go in the rocks. At speed. If your ranch horse is not shod, he will have no feet left after a couple of rides. I have had my horses re-shod at 6 weeks, and there is pretty much NO WAY we can re-set steel shoes safely/reasonably, they are too worn.

My farrier works for the ZX Ranch in Paisley, OR. Most of the good cowboys there know how to 'cowboy shoe' their own horses. Google the ZX if you like, that is a BIG, BIG ranch! (over a million acres and thousands of cows and their own remuda of mares and a few stallions to produce geldings for their own working ranch horses)

Anyway, back to the original topic, I have always liked a basic, steel 'eventer' shoe that eases breakover all the way around. Similar effect, but not the sole coverage. I don't like an aluminum shoe: a plain steel horseshoe is like a spring, and expands and contracts like the hoof does when it hits the ground. Aluminum shoes, and bar shoes, stay stiff and put a lot of extra concussion on a hoof striking the ground. I'd have to be riding solely (pun intended!!!) in an arena with a lot of shock absorption to consider such a shoe. But...I can see how such a shoe might be advantageous for some competition horses.

Spectrum
Oct. 26, 2011, 02:36 PM
Something to ponder.

Years and years ago when I really got into horses, I worked on very large cattle ranch in MT....where the majority of horses were barefoot. Seems they stayed sound through all of the torqueing on their limbs....

So the requirement of these 'protective' shoes makes me ponder the affect that a particular rider and/or schooling method has upon the lower limbs especially the foot.

You are comparing apples to oranges. Horses are DESIGNED to work and perform on a natural surface, such as what you'd find in a field or a farm.

They are NOT designed to work and perform on a relatively thin surface mounted over stabilizing grids (used under footing in many top competition arenas) that are meant to prevent footing from migrating around the ring and easy grooming, drainage, etc.

Consider that these shoes actually allow the horse's foot to tilt/rock sideways (see the diagram in the article) as the horse moves sideways, similar to how they would in a natural footing where their foot can dig in properly. A regular shoe on a firm competition surface doesn't allow the foot to dig into the footing the way it would in natural circumstances.

Also, the shoes do not move the weight-bearing surface to the sole- they are a solid metal piece that extends inward from theouter wall, have clips outside the wall for stability. They are like a metal pad on the foot. Much like a woman's high-heel shoe does not cause all her weight to be supported by the 1 square centimeter on the center of her heel above the spike heel itself, these shoes do not move the weightbearing to the sole. In fact they would do the opposite- they would take the weight borne by the full surface of the shoe touching the foot (which due to the convex shape of a foot would still be just the wall, unless there was a pad extending up towards the sole under the shoe) and the area on the *ground* where the weight hits the dirt would be the smaller area (again, think of the high-heel shoe on a woman).

The shoe allows the horse's foot to tilt on a firm surface as it would if it were digging into the ground. The physics involved are pretty simple if you look at the photo in the article.

dragonharte8
Oct. 26, 2011, 03:11 PM
They are NOT designed to work and perform on a relatively thin surface mounted over stabilizing grids (used under footing in many top competition arenas) that are meant to prevent footing from migrating around the ring and easy grooming, drainage, etc.

Thin surface? What depth is a thin surface?
If your statement is a true statement, what is the penetration depth of the hooves?
What depths are set for the arena drags?

Even on the new various poly racetrack surfaces, which are specifically designed to alliviate as much torque as possible, the hooves have penetration.

The issue is not about barefoot versus shod, the issue is about torque on the hoof, pastern and fetlock joint.

I would like to see electronic sensors between the shoes and the sole and see what they read, because I find it hard to believe that the design transfers impact forces to the outer wall.

Velvet
Oct. 26, 2011, 03:12 PM
Also, the shoes do not move the weight-bearing surface to the sole- they are a solid metal piece that extends inward from theouter wall, have clips outside the wall for stability. They are like a metal pad on the foot. Much like a woman's high-heel shoe does not cause all her weight to be supported by the 1 square centimeter on the center of her heel above the spike heel itself, these shoes do not move the weightbearing to the sole. In fact they would do the opposite- they would take the weight borne by the full surface of the shoe touching the foot (which due to the convex shape of a foot would still be just the wall, unless there was a pad extending up towards the sole under the shoe) and the area on the *ground* where the weight hits the dirt would be the smaller area (again, think of the high-heel shoe on a woman).


And we ALL know how much damage high heeled (even lower heeled shoes) cause for women. The amount of force on one small area of the foot creates issues throughout a woman's entire body.

LarkspurCO
Oct. 26, 2011, 04:36 PM
And we ALL know how much damage high heeled (even lower heeled shoes) cause for women. The amount of force on one small area of the foot creates issues throughout a woman's entire body.

Eh, sure but this does not have anything at all in common with the biomechanical forces of a rocker shoe on a horse. High heels damage women's bodies by making them walk on their toes. Rocker shoes on horses aren't an any way, shape or form comparable. Spectrum was simply trying to illustrate how the rocker shoe does not concentrate pressure over the center of the sole.

Most well-designed human shoes have a rocker motion built in. I am looking at the bottom of my Dansko clog and it is not flat. It rocks from back to front. The flattest shoes I own -- flip-flops -- are the worst things to walk in.

dragonharte8
Oct. 26, 2011, 04:58 PM
"The flattest shoes I own -- flip-flops -- are the worst things to walk in."

Because you have altered the way your foot and ankle are supposed to function by using the shoes.

The hoof is designed so it does not require shoes to make the lower extremeties function correctly. Thus in the same manner we are altering the hooves of the horse that ultimately require some form of shoe to repair the problem. And then the dependency upon shoes is formed.

Once again I regress to the possibility that the affect of the rider and the schooling method used have more impact upon the hooves than any other symptom. In other words, the simple fact of the constraints we place upon the horses in the competitive arena are the prime factor for injuries of any type to the horse. Braking and accelerating at the same time do generate un-natural forces upon the entire horse, especially the hooves.

If the rocker shoes are beneficial then that is great, however, I just raise questions that I believe are reasonable.

LarkspurCO
Oct. 26, 2011, 04:59 PM
Here, this is probably a better example. Take a look at this wobble board.

http://www.bargainoutfitters.com/net/cb/16-Fitter-First-Wobble-Board.aspx?a=219472&kwtid=261853

In spite of the very small foot on the bottom of the board, if the person standing on it could keep the board level, the weight would be distributed evenly across both feet and not concentrated directly up through the center of the board from the bottom side.

Now, for purposes of illustration, extrapolate this idea and imagine that you have glued a wobble board to the bottom of a horse's hoof. The foot is perfectly round and the wobble board fits exactly to the edges of the hoof wall, and you have filled in the hollows with Equipack. The horse would experience relatively even pressure across the entire bottom of the hoof.

Dragonharte, keep it up and someone will have to post the video of your Gloria lesson again.

dragonharte8
Oct. 26, 2011, 05:35 PM
LarkspurCO:

You crack me up!
Take the wobble board and strap on on each of your feet. Then proceed to run, turn, etc.............I am referencing impact forces with regards to torque.......not balance
and as for packing between, the packing can and does not remain in it orginal form or place...so it has an affect upon the impact forces.

LarkspurCO
Oct. 26, 2011, 06:04 PM
The wobble board analogy was more for Velvet, but you also brought up sole pressure.

You obviously have never seen Equi-Pak (http://www.vettec.com/equi-pak.html) -- why am I not surprised?

silvia
Oct. 26, 2011, 08:17 PM
LarkspurCO:

You crack me up!
Take the wobble board and strap on on each of your feet. Then proceed to run, turn, etc.............I am referencing impact forces with regards to torque.......not balance
and as for packing between, the packing can and does not remain in it orginal form or place...so it has an affect upon the impact forces.

Torque is loading in a rotational manner. Impact forces do not have torque. :confused:

Spectrum
Oct. 31, 2011, 04:01 PM
Torque is loading in a rotational manner. Impact forces do not have torque. :confused:

@Dragonharte- if your only argument is that horses shouldn't wear shoes at all or be competed in arenas, then why are you even bothering to post on a thread where people are attempting to discuss the merits of a shoeing system for dressage competition horses? Have you ever even been on a surface like the ones these horses are showing on? Have you examined it first-hand or watched how it is groomed and how it holds up to traffic?

I spent a week literally walking and jogging on the WEG footing for 8 hours per day in the main arena, watched it get groomed 4 (or more) times per day and watched how it reacted to the traffic, how it reacted when I was jogging on it, how it changed when it was fresh vs. when it was packed.

I'm not necessarily an expert, but I can tell you that 40 hours of concentrated observation (actually more like 72 if you include the test event as well) was more than enough to show that this footing is NOTHING like what you see on a race track, on a ranch, or even in most typical dressage arenas. I have seen exactly ONE small private facility with footing like this, and only FEI show venues with footing like this.

It is not deep footing- it has some kind of gel component that allows it to hold its depth after being "fluffed" by the arena drag, yet it packs to an almost springy, firm surface with traffic. This half-sand, half-gel, fluffy "topping" is spread just a couple of inches deep over a rubber grid that keeps the footing from migrating around the ring. It does not provide any slide.

Example- Anky van Grunsven did a demo reining ride during one of the breaks and attempted upon entry to do a sliding stop. Her horse was smarter than she was and immediately realized it wasn't able to slide, so did a series of hops instead. You could see the horse's rear legs "catch" on the non-slip footing and underlying grid, and the horse could actually have been seriously injured if it hadn't compensated for Anky's error and had kept its hind legs braced for the slide. In normal footing, even shallow footing with a regular base, this wouldn't have happened; the horse would have just slid along the base.

In footing like this, where the footing is designed to be low-impact but definitely not deep, a rocker shoe would have a big advantage. On normal footing, perhaps not so much.

For those who have worked at (or attended) other events at international venues, how many of them seem to use this new footing system? Most? Some? All?

dragonharte8
Oct. 31, 2011, 05:08 PM
It is not deep footing- it has some kind of gel component that allows it to hold its depth after being "fluffed" by the arena drag, yet it packs to an almost springy, firm surface with traffic. This half-sand, half-gel, fluffy "topping" is spread just a couple of inches deep over a rubber grid that keeps the footing from migrating around the ring. It does not provide any slide.

Spectrum;
Thank you for taking the time to answer the question I had asked. You see there is no depth o penetration to this footing so such a shoe would have a place in such conditions.

Bats79
Oct. 31, 2011, 10:20 PM
You are comparing apples to oranges. Horses are DESIGNED to work and perform on a natural surface, such as what you'd find in a field or a farm.

They are NOT designed to work and perform on a relatively thin surface mounted over stabilizing grids (used under footing in many top competition arenas) that are meant to prevent footing from migrating around the ring and easy grooming, drainage, etc.

Consider that these shoes actually allow the horse's foot to tilt/rock sideways (see the diagram in the article) as the horse moves sideways, similar to how they would in a natural footing where their foot can dig in properly. A regular shoe on a firm competition surface doesn't allow the foot to dig into the footing the way it would in natural circumstances.

Also, the shoes do not move the weight-bearing surface to the sole- they are a solid metal piece that extends inward from theouter wall, have clips outside the wall for stability. They are like a metal pad on the foot. Much like a woman's high-heel shoe does not cause all her weight to be supported by the 1 square centimeter on the center of her heel above the spike heel itself, these shoes do not move the weightbearing to the sole. In fact they would do the opposite- they would take the weight borne by the full surface of the shoe touching the foot (which due to the convex shape of a foot would still be just the wall, unless there was a pad extending up towards the sole under the shoe) and the area on the *ground* where the weight hits the dirt would be the smaller area (again, think of the high-heel shoe on a woman).

The shoe allows the horse's foot to tilt on a firm surface as it would if it were digging into the ground. The physics involved are pretty simple if you look at the photo in the article.

What would people do in the meantime? You wouldn't hack out on a trail in those shoes so do they have special shoes for special events.

To me it is a slippery slope in a way. Certainly it might be only these ultra valuable horses being ridden and owned by ultra wealthy people but many horses are putting the same strain on the joints as far as training is concerned.

Or is it ONLY at these competitions being run on these weird new surfaces that require the horse to be shod like so?

horseworld
Aug. 8, 2013, 11:35 AM
So, a TWH group on Facebook has recently been posting pictures of these shoes and evidently trying to compare them to the pads of walking horses. I am a bit annoyed by this comparison. Regardless of whether these shoes are the best route to go long term and in the future, everything I have read suggests these shoes were created to help ease pressure and strain for the horse. BIG difference than what the walking horse pads were designed for use. I wanted to get a bit of insight from the NON-WH folks because my gut says this is just a ploy to drag dressage horses into their drama as a deflection. Again, I do see where there could be some concern over long term use of these shoes. But, am I crazy to think these two types of shoes should never be compared to one another?

LarkspurCO
Aug. 8, 2013, 02:11 PM
People think these shoes are new but they are not.

Go here and look inside the text of David Roberge's shoeing text from the 1800s

http://www.amazon.com/The-Foot-Of-Horse/dp/0944079385

Scroll down to the illustrations and you'll see a number of variations on the rock-and-roll shoe. Some were patented in the mid-1800s and were probably in use well before then. You have the ball shoe, the centre-bar shoe, the centre-bearing shoe, the rolling shoe, pivot shoe, etc., etc.

They aren't new and, no, you are not crazy to think there is no valid comparison to the big lick shoes, other than that they are completely different.

lorilu
Aug. 8, 2013, 04:46 PM
"The flattest shoes I own -- flip-flops -- are the worst things to walk in."

Because you have altered the way your foot and ankle are supposed to function by using the shoes.

.

I would suggest that the flip flops do not alter the way the foot moves; rather, the hard surfaces on which we walk today alter the function of the foot. Our foot is designed to walk on softer giving ground.

The horse's hoof is not designed to do what we ask of it, on any surface, for longer or more often periodas of time (as in training). So, jsut like I wear Birkis to simulate the footprint I would leave in sand, we use different shoes to facilitate the horse's hoof working the way it should.
Look at the pic of the hoof at an angle to the ground. Notice that the entire side of the hoof is supported by the shoe. If the hoof were flat shod, only the edge of the wall would be in contact with the ground, and the ankle/pastern would be twisted (another drawing shows that).
Looks interesting. If I had a horse working at that level, I would look into it.

lorilu
Aug. 8, 2013, 04:50 PM
The Florida Horse Park has the same footing as they used in Atlanta. It is springy - the horse feels softer to ride - and hooves do not dig very deeply into it. I do not know how it compares to the WEG footing.

horseworld
Aug. 8, 2013, 05:05 PM
Thanks LarkspurCO. I was looking up information on the shoe since I hadn't heard of it before (no big surprise - I'm new to a lot of things :-)) and came across this thread. I might should have created a cross-post or new thread instead of starting a re-hash of the old topic. I just wanted to get that acknowledgement that I wasn't having a knee jerk reaction to the TWH discussion I saw on a Facebook page. I thought about piping up about the differences in dressage and walking horse shoeing on that Facebook page, but man - those folks can get fanatical and rabid in a heartbeat and I just didn't want to go there. It was a interesting topic to learn about though!

Foxtrot's
Aug. 8, 2013, 08:27 PM
Horse footwear is evolving. As is any piece of equipment used in sports - just name a sport - runners, hockey players, pole vaulters...

I don't believe these shoes are crutches - it does seem to me that they reduce the torque on joints as seen in the sketches.

My farrier has just about every letter after his name that a farrier can get and is one of very few with these qualifications in both UK and US: He said that lungeing my mare is not in her best interests because of her big flat feet
that cause torque on her joints. I subscribe.

SnicklefritzG
Aug. 8, 2013, 09:42 PM
It reminds me of what happens at the top levels of Pro Cycling...people going to extraordinary lengths to save a few grams here and there. At the very top level it probably does make some difference.

At my level, I need to spend the money on lessons.

Calamber
Aug. 9, 2013, 10:00 PM
LarkspurCO

Like what you posted, however, where is the evidence throught MRI's etc. that this design is actually a benefit?

I ask because this design increases impact forces upon the sole which is the protection for the coffin bone, etc.......

It took years before the toe grab horseshoe was not allowed in CA racing because it actually was causing negative forces upon the foot......

Right. Whatever happens to the foot, joint, leg of the horse out in the field with these metal plates on them. omg

LarkspurCO
Aug. 10, 2013, 02:13 PM
Right. Whatever happens to the foot, joint, leg of the horse out in the field with these metal plates on them. omg

Really, like what? Do you think the horse's trainer would let some farrier who knows nothing about sole pressure and hoof mechanics shoe the horse?

Maybe, just maybe, the shoe does not actually "increase impact forces" on the sole and instead makes the horse more comfortable and able to perform on the international circuit. If his soles were bruised and painful he would not be doing what he does.

lorilu
Aug. 10, 2013, 02:33 PM
Do you really think they go out in the field with those on? I doubt it.

LarkspurCO
Aug. 10, 2013, 04:20 PM
I doubt they let Fuego go out in the field at all. :lol:

Both of my laminitic mares have worn the clogs in the field without any problem.

flyracing
Aug. 11, 2013, 12:47 AM
A bit more back to the original topic, Fuego has a significant paddle and his foot never breaks over straight. It looks even worse in lateral work (the break over that is). I can see where biomechanically, an all over break over shoe could really help this horse with the demands of GP training.

I wish I could (easily) try it on my paddler to see if it changes the feel in the lateral work and smaller circles.

~DQ~
Aug. 12, 2013, 01:19 PM
I personally am all for weird shoeing to correct or support issues that the horse may have.

That includes having my I1 horse barefoot. He won his last CDI2* - all 3 days and the FEI vet was very impressed that he did it barefoot.
It's taken a good 6 months to get everything normalized after pulling the shoes - but he is sounder on gravel than most shod horses and moves with so much more freedom and regularity. Prior to that, with steel shoes we were always after an even tread surface front to back and side to side and did discuss a lot of corrective shoeing. Had we not pulled the shoes the horse would have been in heart bars.

I really like Fran Jurga's blog. To me the MOST important part of that article is the last sentence: "Maybe it's true that there an ideal shoe and an ideal trim for every horse; the trick is to find it and fine tune it and let the horse's soundness reward your independent thinking."
Not every horse does well in the same shoes. Not every person does well in the same shoes.

I truly believe that trying things to HELP the horses is what makes and keeps them sounder for longer - and a sound horse is a happy horse! Who cares what others think - we all know how our horses thrive and obviously Juan Manuel Diaz found that for his horse - one cannot deny the connection between those two.

dysarae
Nov. 1, 2014, 09:31 PM
my mare had to wear these same shoes (colleoni rock & roll aluminium shoes) for about a year in order to get her sound. for the last year & 1/2 she's been back in regular steel shoes again and sound about 95% of the time. (history of lameness which has been closely managed)