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dragonharte8
Oct. 22, 2011, 06:22 PM
Below is a study done on rising versus sitting trot. If the claim that the rider can suck up the back with the seat is true then please explain the downward forces. If the rider is sucking up the back with the seat then any downward forces should be countered....right?

Kinetics and kinematics of the horse comparing left and right rising trot:
L. Roepstorff1,*, A. Egenvall2, M. Rhodin2, A. Byström1, C. Johnston3, P. R. van Weeren4, M. Weishaupt5

Summary
Reasons for performing study: At rising trot the rider sits alternately down on one diagonal pair of limbs and rises up on the other. The possible effects on asymmetry of locomotion induced by rising trot have rarely been studied.

Objectives: To demonstrate whether, and if so to what extent, rising trot causes asymmetrical loading in the vertical ground reaction force (VGRF) and/or asymmetrical effects on the locomotion pattern, comparing left and right side.

Methods: Seven elite horses were ridden in left and right rising trot on a treadmill, while VGRF and kinematics were measured, with the horses' neck raised, the poll high and the bridge of the nose slightly in front of the vertical.

Results: Force loading was generally increased in the limbs of the sitting diagonal. The lumbar back was lower between mid-stances of the sitting and nonsitting stance, pelvic roll was limited and the tuber coxae heights were lower on the sitting side. Maximal hindlimb protraction was decreased. Forelimb retraction was increased and the T6 height decreased.

Conclusion: The rider movement induces an uneven biphasic load that affects the back, pelvis and limb kinematics and VGRF.

Potential relevance: The generally advocated technique of alternating limbs when riding in rising trot is supported. The VGRF changes between rising on the left or right diagonal were distinct, but minor in absolute terms and therefore unlikely to have direct impact on the occurrence of locomotor injuries. Knowledge of an increase of asymmetry in rising trot is potentially useful for riders/trainers.

BaroquePony
Oct. 22, 2011, 06:32 PM
Below is a study done on rising versus sitting trot. If the claim that the rider can suck up the back with the seat is true then please explain the downward forces. If the rider is sucking up the back with the seat then any downward forces should be countered....right?

No. You should not be countering any forces, you should be moving in the exact same direction as the horse (eta: as the horse's back in the upswing). This is done through one stride or several strides.

This is about the "saddle point", which is the point where the center of gravity of the rider is in the seat of the saddle in this definition. For the sake of mathematics I am reducing the three points of the seat (pelvic bone plus two seat bones) to one point.

If you were to counter the same *point* at the same time you would be bracing the back as if executing a half-halt.

This is the exact opposite of the half-halt.

dragonharte8
Oct. 22, 2011, 06:41 PM
Thanks Baroque Pony

BaroquePony
Oct. 22, 2011, 07:01 PM
Technically the half halt is done at different times depending on what you really need, and it's duration would be shorter. But the two actions are both in the same category of using the seat as an aid. Very different in their goals though. One goes with the flow and should enhance the flow, the other stops the flow.

BaroquePony
Oct. 22, 2011, 07:04 PM
You are welcome.

alterhorse
Oct. 22, 2011, 07:54 PM
Sucking up the back sounds silly.

Centered riding without causing the horse discomfort creates an opportunity to encourage the horse to use himself.


The KISS principle applies.

MyssMyst
Oct. 23, 2011, 01:40 AM
Why do I sense a Spirit Saddle coming out of all this?

dudleyc
Oct. 23, 2011, 09:42 AM
Below is a study done on rising versus sitting trot. If the claim that the rider can suck up the back with the seat is true then please explain the downward forces. If the rider is sucking up the back with the seat then any downward forces should be countered....right?

Kinetics and kinematics of the horse comparing left and right rising trot:
L. Roepstorff1,*, A. Egenvall2, M. Rhodin2, A. Byström1, C. Johnston3, P. R. van Weeren4, M. Weishaupt5

Summary
Reasons for performing study: At rising trot the rider sits alternately down on one diagonal pair of limbs and rises up on the other. The possible effects on asymmetry of locomotion induced by rising trot have rarely been studied.

Objectives: To demonstrate whether, and if so to what extent, rising trot causes asymmetrical loading in the vertical ground reaction force (VGRF) and/or asymmetrical effects on the locomotion pattern, comparing left and right side.

Methods: Seven elite horses were ridden in left and right rising trot on a treadmill, while VGRF and kinematics were measured, with the horses' neck raised, the poll high and the bridge of the nose slightly in front of the vertical.

Results: Force loading was generally increased in the limbs of the sitting diagonal. The lumbar back was lower between mid-stances of the sitting and nonsitting stance, pelvic roll was limited and the tuber coxae heights were lower on the sitting side. Maximal hindlimb protraction was decreased. Forelimb retraction was increased and the T6 height decreased.

Conclusion: The rider movement induces an uneven biphasic load that affects the back, pelvis and limb kinematics and VGRF.

Potential relevance: The generally advocated technique of alternating limbs when riding in rising trot is supported. The VGRF changes between rising on the left or right diagonal were distinct, but minor in absolute terms and therefore unlikely to have direct impact on the occurrence of locomotor injuries. Knowledge of an increase of asymmetry in rising trot is potentially useful for riders/trainers.

I do peer review for the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology. This does not look like a real study to me. Are there journal references?

medical mike
Oct. 25, 2011, 07:15 PM
DudleyC,
This group has put out several appropriately referenced articles, so they are "real" group. I would see no reason this article would be different. As a sports medicine researcher, I can acknowledge your concern.

That said, they are as sophisticated as load sensors and motion tracking lets them be, within the context of a horse and rider.

Regards,
Medical Mike
equestrian medical researcher
www.equicision.com